96 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F59bedcbd5706bab0fb90f448773e2f8f.jpg 47a083b5b5bc2d33fd1d1c3212976e2d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe07a220c8f43ba814c7597fe2fd7b887.mp4 a0765f64d0e3a05cd268b608370736cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jackson. Pete Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Jackson_Pete Woman One: Get them all fixed and I’ll submit them, and they would get paid to run. Man one: And we're about to roll now. Okay. Whenever you are ready. Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I think we're ready to get started. Pete Jackson: Okay. Bauman: So if we could start first by just having you say your name and spell it for us. Jackson: My name is Pete Jackson, J-A-C-K-S-O-N. Bauman: Great. Thank you. My name is Robert Bauman. Today's date is October 30th of 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you talk about how you came here, what brought you to Hanford, and when you arrived. Jackson: Well, I came to Hanford after living and growing up in Spokane, and serving in the Navy. I came here February 7, 1951. Bauman: And what brought you here? Why did you—what brought you to Hanford? Jackson: Oh, the interviews that we had had at WSU, WSC at that time. Bauman: So you were a student at Washington State College? Jackson: Yes. Bauman: And what were you majoring in? Jackson: Major was mechanical engineering. Bauman: Okay. And so what sort of job did you have, then, once you arrived in 1951? Jackson: Well, I didn't have a clearance. So to wait for the Q clearance took a while. And I was working in a program where they were updating the standards that they use. Down in the old 762 Building. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And standards for a what? What sort of standards were they? Jackson: Oh, standards on how to do various and sundry tasks. I guess that'd be the best way to put it. Bauman: Did you know much about Hanford before you came here? Jackson: Oh, not much. You know, I grew up in Spokane, so we were familiar with Hanford. And I spent time in Japan when I was there with the Navy, and did get in and saw the destruction in Nagasaki, which was tremendous. And then after the Navy let me go, I decided to come to WSU and to take up studies. Bauman: Mm-hm. What were your first impressions of the area, here, when you arrived? Jackson: [LAUGHTER] Sagebrush, sand, and lots of wind. But I can't remember the facility--I think it was about 7,000 people. But it was interesting. Bauman: What sort of housing did you have when you first arrived? Jackson: Well, the housing was dormitory, and I lived in M2, which we called the old men's society. And later, other tech grads were in W21, which was down in the women's section of the dorms on Lee and Stevens, I think it is. Where Albertson's sits right now. Bauman: So did you know some other people here when you arrived? Jackson: I knew a few, yes. Bauman: Other people from WSU? Jackson: Yes, yes. Bauman: And then so how long did you stay in the dorms? Jackson: Well, they opened up the Bower Day housing on Jadwin. And I made myself unpopular with the guy who was renting these, because they wouldn't rent them to any single people. And so after months of talking to him, they finally decided, well, we'll open it up to single people. So four of us guys went into one down there on 1766 Jadwin. And we enjoyed that life much better, because we didn't have to eat out every night, and that sort of thing. We could do some of our own cooking, and see what we wanted to do, and it was good companionship. These were four engineers. Bauman: Yeah. And how long were you in the Bower Day home, then? Jackson: Huh. Let's see, I've got to try and remember that. Probably until about 1953. It might have been more than that. I don't recall exactly how long it was. Bauman: And what was Richland like at the time, as a community? Jackson: Well, it was just a little small town. There wasn't much of anything to do except work, work, work. And we did a lot of running around, going to Seattle to plays, and stuff like this. And I got into the Desert Ski Club. I was a charter member of that organization, and helped it get established. We had the dorm club, and we had another club called Racketeers. Then, let's see. I got married in 1954--no, '56, and moved into a little B house. Bauman: And so who were the other gentlemen that you shared the Bower Day home with, do you know? Jackson: Okay, one was Corwin Bonham, who was a friend from WSU. Let's see. There was a little Japanese fellow, and what was his name? I can't recall. Bauman: That's all right. Jackson: And Hal Stievers was the third one. And that's about it. Dick Asai was the Japanese fellow. Bauman: Hmm. So you mentioned the clubs, the ski club, and-- Jackson: Yes. Bauman: So were those sort of the primary ways of entertainment? Jackson: Yeah, right. The dorm club was people who lived in the dorms, and we’d would get together and have dances, and parties, and out-of-town escapes, and what-have-you like that, whereas the ski club was primarily for skiing. The most local spot was Spout Springs down here. We also went to others around in the mountains, and even down as far as Sun Valley. Bauman: So how did you and your wife meet, then? Jackson: Well, she was also working here, and was in the dorm. So, she was a secretary. Bauman: So you mentioned your first job when you came in 1951, before you got your clearance, was updating standards. Once you got your clearance, then, where did you go from there? Jackson: Oh, they sent me out to a mechanical development group in what they called it that time White Bluffs. And White Bluffs was just some buildings they had thrown together. The only real building there, I think, is a high school which is still there. And we did mechanical development for the 100 Area reactors. Bauman: So could you describe that a little bit? By mechanical development, sort of what sort of task would that include? Jackson: Yeah, sure. Well, you know these reactors were not all that old at that time, and so we kept upgrading them with different projects of sorts to make them better, more reliable, safer. And also, one great big job was project 558, I think, was the number of it. And that was to upgrade the power level, which originally was something like 165 megawatts. And when we got through with it, some of the reactors were running over 3,000. So we upped the production substantially by that project, which includes revamping a lot of the components. We put more water through the reactors, and we took—well they have safety systems. The first safety system was horizontal rods, and we had to replace all the horizontal rods, because they went into a thimble through the graphite pile. And so in the process then, we had to take the thimble out, because otherwise they would probably melt down. And then we had to have a seal on these tubes that we put in, and instead of having a round tube, we had an oblong tube. So it would roll along, because the graphite had grown considerably, and to pass through the reactor was getting to the point where some of those rods were difficult to get through. I think there were--I think maybe nine control rods in the pile. I think that was the number. And then we replaced the thimbles that were in the second safety system, which was the vertical safety rods. And they were just a boron poison rod that would drop in from the vertical overhead. And they would just freely drop. And they also had thimbles which had to be removed. These were just an aluminum tube, vertical in the reactor core. And we made, then--because here, we had to move that in the atmosphere as the reactor would escape to the building—we had to make seals on those and I worked a lot on the seals for the vertical safety rods to seal the atmosphere in the reactor from the atmosphere in the building. And there were--I can't remember the number of those—probably some 20 or something like that. And we made seals that would seal the rod even as it fell. And then the third safety system was we built a hopper that would sit around this vertical rod, and it contained boron containing steel balls, like ball bearings. And if something went that far to where you had to drop that, the third safety system was kind of the last. We'd drop those balls into the carbon core. Which, as you can imagine, getting those out was a big chore. And we did work on that process some. C Reactor, when they built that one, they put valves on the bottom of the vertical safety rod openings, so that they could vacuum—I think it was vacuum—the darn balls out of it. They had a vacuum system to vacuum them out, and then a ball separator to catch the real hot ones. Because if—the core was built by pieces of graphite, 4 and 3/8 I think they were, square with this hole in them. And the hole would be for the process tubes. And then the holes coming in from the side were for the horizontal safety rods, and then they had holes down through for verticals, which was for the vertical rods. And the pieces of graphite had one corner cut off, I think it was. And if you dropped the balls into that graphite chamber, some of them would get back into that thing, and maybe the next time you had to vacuum them out, they would just be screaming hot radioactively. So we built a ball separator that you could run these millions of balls through and kick out the hot ones. So there was a lot of work on that one. Bauman: Yeah, sounds like it. Jackson: It was a real big project. They did reactor at a time through B, D, F, DR, H, and I think maybe some with C. Bauman: Hmm. So did you work out at all those different reactors, then, during that process? Jackson: Yeah, right. Well, yes. We worked on each individual reactor, but we had offices--well, it started out in White Bluffs, and then they built a new building in D, 1703 D. We had offices there. Bauman: So when you were doing this work at the reactor, did you have to wear special equipment, safety equipment? Jackson: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Bauman: What sorts of things did you have to wear? Jackson: Well, you took off your clothes, your outer clothes, and hang them up. Then you'd put on two pair of white coveralls. You'd put on shoe covers, probably a couple pair of them. And if there was to be anything wet, you'd put rubbers on over the top of that. Then you'd put on a hood fastened under your chin. So we were pretty well covered up, of course with gloves, too—cloth gloves if it was dry work, and rubber gloves over them if it was anything to do with wet. Bauman: How long of a process was of that? Did that take a little while to-- Jackson: To get dressed? Bauman: --get dressed, and undressed then when you were done? Jackson: Well, it would be the same thing as you getting out there and taking off your clothes and putting on a pair of coveralls. Bauman: Yeah. And I assume you had a dosimeter or something along those lines. Jackson: Oh, yeah. We always had dosimeters. Bauman: Mm-hm. Was there ever any time where you or someone else you were working with had exposure above the rates that were recommended? Jackson: Well, I'm sure there were. I don't remember what my accumulated rate of radiation was. Bauman: Mm-hm. And so how long did you work on that project, then, at the different reactors? How long? Jackson: Well, I worked on that 100 Area reactors for probably ten, 12 years. There were different projects for this 558 program, and we did the same changes in all of the reactors. Bauman: And so what did you do, then? What sort of work did you do once you were finished with that, after the ten to 12 years? Jackson: Well, I still continued doing various work in the reactor areas, and one of the jobs I had was examining, building, and making the equipment to examine the process tubes. And they would take the process tube out of the reactor and push it out. And it would fall into the basin behind, and we would cut it up into sections. And one little job it was to take the section of this round tube—now it's a round tube, and it has two tracks kind of on the bottom, which holds the front of the uranium capsule so water can flow all the way around it. And I made equipment that would take that process tube and cut it in half, so that you'd just run it through this saw. And then you could lay it down flat, and the area had two curved sections, and then you could examine that. And they did that in the hot cells, in probably the 327 building. So that was some of it. There were other modifications made to the reactors that we were all part of, and we built a lot of underwater examination equipment. And then we would also build equipment to examine the vertical holes that the vertical safety rods operated in. We'd go down there with a TV camera, and record what that was, so we could see what the interior of the unit looked like. And I think we did it also with the horizontal rods. But we did a lot of that. I did a lot of work on the process tubes for B, D, and F, DR, and H. And C were all made of aluminum. And we got into KE and KW, and those process tubes were fabricated of zirconium. So we wanted to examine them, too, to see how they were holding up. And every once in a while, you would get a rupture in this tube, because the uranium slug, as we called it, might open up to the water, and then you'd have a reaction there, and it'd even tend to burn holes through the process tubes. So this examination included that sort of thing to see what those would look like down through the core of the reactor. Bauman: Wow, hmm. Also, I understand you also worked at PRTR, an N Reactor at some point, as well? Jackson: Yeah. I moved into 300 Area, and worked on the development of some of that stuff for PRTR, some of the equipment, and what-have-you, like that. I can't remember exactly what all the equipment was. And then we had the examination from PRTR also. PRTR was a water-moderated, heavy-water reactor. Bauman: And then how about N reactor? Jackson: I did not work on anything really associated with N-- Bauman: Oh. Jackson: --except the development of the process tubing for it. And the process tubing was a--oh, I think it was probably about a 3-inch tube of zirconium. And it had about a quarter of an inch wall, if I recall. And we did a lot of testing prior to the startup of the N reactor, wherein we wanted to see what kind of temperature from pressure would react on this. Because for N reactor, the pressure was something like 2,000, 2,500 PSI, and 600 degrees Fahrenheit. So that ran very hot. We examined that tubing, also, when we built the equipment for doing that, and really made various and sundry tests, and then built up a facility for evaluating sections of the new tube to see that at what pressure would it break at what temperature. And I would put these in a special oven that we had in sort of a bomb-proof building. And I put them in a furnace, and I had enclosures on both ends of this tubing, and we could pressurize that tubing up to, oh, in excess of 20,000 PSI, and actually rupture them under conditions of 600 degrees Fahrenheit. And I had that down at 314 Building. And we would do the testing out just through the concrete block wall of this building. And when that thing went off, of course the safety engineer always called me when he heard the boom and the shake. And so he knew when we were doing this, and he was up in—I can't remember the number of that building. But it was right down the main drag in 300 from the vehicle gate. So we would burst this tubing, and sometimes we would put a slot in it, machined slot, so we could see how it burst under condition of wear. And that was a pretty interesting thing, because when it went off, it was a loud bang, like a stick of dynamite going off. And at one time there was a couple of people walking down the road when it went off right beside the road. And all of a sudden this big old capsule went flying up in the air several feet, and then lit down on the wet ground in front of them, and sizzled, and then everything like that. They were real surprised, were these guys. We used that facility for quite some time, and then it was taken by the service. But it was used for all the process tubing in N. I assume it was used in K, also. K east and west. Bauman: So you had a lot of different, very interesting jobs in Hanford. Several. Jackson: Yeah. That's why the job was very interesting, because you'd go from one interesting task to another interesting task, and they'd be, perhaps, totally different. And we would work through the design of the apparatus to run that, and then through the installation thereof, and the installation in the reactor, and all. So I worked in C Reactor for that, and the Ks. We had a lot of interesting experiences in K Reactor, because it was also a high-pressure thing. Not as high as N, but it was recirculating--well, maybe it wasn't. No, it was not recirculating the water. The water went right straight through. Bauman: Is there anything about that work, that K Reactor that really stands out in your mind, anything particular? Jackson: Well, I did burst testing on that tubing, also. And this tube was--oh, I think it was about an inch and a half in diameter of zirconium, and we would burst those in the same facility. I remember one time, a failure of the fuel element caused a lot of problems. And I don't remember what the heck we did. We had to get this stuff out. Oh, I can't remember what it was. But we got some farmer with some farm equipment, and used his farm equipment to get this thing out of the reactor. I can't quite remember what it all was. But it was interesting. Because there was something very interesting going on. And at this same test facility that I had in H Area, we worked hand in hand with the people from KAPL—Knolls Atomic Power Labs, in Schenectady—for the development of the fuel rods for the Naval submarines. So we did a lot of work for that, and worked hand in hand with these engineers from KAPL. And they kind of thought they were in charge of the thing, and they'd call up and say, well, you've got to shut your reactor down. And I says, I can't shut my reactor down. We'll have to schedule that. So we'd work through a schedule when we would have it shut down, and then they would come out, and we would take the fuel elements out of the test pile. And this was a test hole, went through—horizontally through the center of H Reactor, and ran at about 600 degrees Fahrenheit and 2,250 PSI pressure. So that was a lot of equipment that took a lot of specialized engineering. Bauman: Of the many different projects you worked on in Hanford, were there some, or one, that were sort of the most rewarding to you, that you really enjoyed the most? And maybe something that was the most challenging? Jackson: Well, certainly they were all challenging. And I enjoyed them, because it was a task that you individually had. There might be another engineer working with you, but generally it was just a single engineer working on a particular. But the 558 project was a large, large group of people working in the development, and the design, and the whole works. So we worked with all these other people, also, to accomplish that. Bauman: So how long in total did you work at Hanford? When did you retire? Jackson: 38 years. I started on the 7th of February in 1951, and I retired, I think it was the end of August in '88. Bauman: I imagine there are a lot of changes that you saw take place over that time. Jackson: Oh, definitely, definitely. Bauman: Even in just how things were done, right? Jackson: Yeah. And after working in the 100 Areas directly, then I moved into the mechanical development group in the 300 Area, which was project engineering. So we worked on a lot of the projects for the various pieces of equipment that would be put in here, there, and elsewhere. I worked at the 100 Areas, PRTR, FFTF, HSHTSF, I think it was. And all these, and they all had specialized equipment. So there was always a different type of job. It was very challenging. People had never done this sort of task before. So we had pretty much a free rein in how we could do it. The only stipulation was, if something went wrong, don't repeat it. Bauman: Technology must have changed quite a bit from 1951 to 1988 also. Jackson: Oh, definitely. Yeah. And the last bit of the work in project engineering was in a lot of the different buildings, building of facilities to test different pieces of equipment, and all. And we had some of those. Oh, I can't remember exactly how old it was. I remember building the firehouse in the K Area, I think it was. And then I helped rebuild the steam plant in the 300 Area. That was an interesting job, because we had a big steam plant to make steam to heat the whole area and what-have-you, the 300 Area. And they went from oil—oh, they went from oil to coal. I think that was it. Or did they go from coal to oil? Well, anyway, we replaced the oil system of heating the furnace, I guess you'd call it, to using coal. And so coal spontaneously combusts. And one night I was called out because the coal hoppers were up on the top of the steam plant, and the coal would go down into it. I was called out because there was fires in the passageway that was providing the coal for the fire. And it was in a vertical pipe. And I couldn't figure that one out, so I came up with the idea to attach hoses to a big storage container that they had out at 327 Building which contained argon. And we used the argon gas to put it into this fire, and it being totally inert, as soon as it hit the fire, it put it out. That was a very interesting one, and that took place very rapidly after we got the argon into the furnace. That really took it out. So we saved the day that day. Bauman: I want to ask you about, President Kennedy visited Hanford in 1963, at the start of the N Reactor. I wondered if you were there, do you have memories of that? Jackson: I think I was there. I think so. It was outside, and I think Ronald Reagan was there also. I'm not sure. I remember seeing Ronald Reagan, and probably Kennedy also. Bauman: From your time working at Hanford, are there any events or incidents that sort of stand out in your mind? Things that happened that were either a little unusual, or just very memorable for some reason or other? Jackson: Well, I remember one which had to do with my in-reactor loop in the H Area. The fellow who was operating it before I took over—they took something out of this test facility, and had it on a big long-boy. And they spilled water down the street in the reactor area, and we had to repave the street. So that was kind of interesting. [LAUGHTER] Just to cover it up so you couldn't spread the contamination. But there was always a challenge, and that's something that I enjoyed. Bauman: So I guess, overall, in looking back at your years working at Hanford, how was it as a place to work? Jackson: Well, it was a very nice place to work. We had pretty much free rein on what we could do. We had our individual jobs. And that was nice. And they could rate you as to how you performed, and how you managed your money for your project—when you came out money-wise in the right position—and also if you came out on your time schedule for it. So I had quite a few different projects doing different jobs in different locations. Bauman: And is there anything that I haven't asked about yet, about your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about, that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? Jackson: Oh! Well, when I came here, there was an awful lot of people, and the Hanford construction workers, of course, had the big 50,000 people out there in North Richland in barracks. Well, when we came—when I came, they were still in those barracks. If you were married, you have a little trailer that you lived in. The others were dormitories and such there. So there's interesting stories about some of that. You know, how some of the people survived that. Bauman: Is there anything particular that stands out in your mind, any particular story? Jackson: Oh, I was not a part of that North Richland area. I was fortunate enough, when I came, to get into the barracks down in the town. And like I say, I went into the men's dormitory, until all the tech grads congregated in W21, which was very nice, because it was a bunch of us guys that, you know, were fresh out of college, and had been for a year or two, and had a lot of mutual interests. I remember building a boat during that time, and we did a lot of water skiing out on the river. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your stories, and all the descriptions of the various jobs you worked on. It was very interesting, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Jackson: Well, I appreciate, too, the facts of what you're doing. And you know, I think this story ought to be very interesting to see when we get done with the various people. Because there were a lot of us putting in a lot of time and effort to try and make this thing go. And since that time, we're trying to tear it all down, and get rid of all the reactors, and the separations area, which I never worked in the separations area. Now, I don't know. I haven't been out other than to the B Reactor, but I found the B Reactor was very interesting to go to, because I had a distinct familiarity with it. Bauman: I guess it does bring one more question to mind. I teach a course on the Cold War, and I have actually taken my students out to the B Reactor to see it, and there's always this sort of amazement, at the size of the reactor, and all that. But of course, most of my students were born after the Cold War ended. Jackson: Yes! Bauman: So they have no memories of the Cold War. Jackson: And not very much memories of World War II, and the action we had going on there. I wasn't here during World War II. I came right after, after college. Bauman: And so I guess the question I have would be, if you were speaking to someone who is too young to have lived through any of the Cold War, how would you describe Hanford in a Cold War to them? Jackson: Well, definitely the security was a big factor, and we all had two furnaces. We had special badges we wore to get into the various and sundry areas. And you'd leave one area and go to a second, you'd pick up a badge for the second area, and leave the first area badge there, and then when you came back out, you'd get your original badge back. And this was to monitor a lot the radiation exposure that you probably were getting. But it was also secure to make sure that your activity in that particular area was necessary and approved of. You couldn't get into it if you didn't have clearance to each individual area. Bauman: Right. And would be important for people to know that, yeah. Jackson: Yeah. Bauman: Exactly. Well, again, thank you very much for coming in. I really appreciate it. Jackson: You're very welcome. We did have the buses that we would catch a bus in the morning out on Stevens Drive. They had a big bus station there, and we'd have the big yellow buses, and we'd climb into them, and drive the 35 miles out to work. And the same coming back. You didn't work overtime, because your bus would probably leave without you. Bauman: And how long did you do that? How long did you take the buses? For most of the time you worked there? Jackson: Oh, quite a length of time, and then they finally allowed us to bring our own vehicles into the area in general, not the specific area of the 100 Area enclosures, or anything like that. And so we then carpooled. And that was nice, also. But I don't know. I rode the buses for several years, I know that. Probably ten years. Bauman: All right. Well, thank you. Thanks again. Jackson: I guess that's about the size of it. Bauman: It’s good. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 195 kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:13 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 762 Building 100 Area B Area D Area F Area DR Area H Area C Area 1703 D building 327 building N Reactor KE Area K Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1988 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Bonham, Corwin Stievers, Hal Asai, Dick Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Pete Jackson Description An account of the resource An interview with Pete Jackson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item." Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 1703 D building 327 building 762 Building B Area C Area D Area DR Area F Area H Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) K Area KE Area N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1d5969a330cb013c8521d026d6a68ce7.jpg ff47ac81d5d3ce2033875e79427a831e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa095b818f272c3b2d8dd709637b8ca33.mp4 f43df0e60028bddc39358f58d28dc8cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donna Jackson Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Northwest Public Television | Jackson_Donna </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Robert Bauman: Okay. Why don't you go ahead and state your name first. Donna Jackson: My name is Donna Jackson. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: Okay. And my name's Robert Bauman and Donna Jackson will be telling us some stories. Today is July 16, 2013 and this is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So at this point I'll turn over to you Donna, and go ahead and tell your stories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Okay. I'm going to tell you a story about John and Mary. They and their four kids lived in the Midwest. They had family working at Hanford and came west to join them in 1946. Now when there is a housing shortage, private citizens try to fill the need and make some money. John and Mary found housing at what is now called Columbia Park. A man named Garst had a cherry orchard and he put up tents and shacks to rent. Mr. Paulson had a farmhouse just west of that and he divided his land into Paulson’s Plats and built small houses on it to rent or sell. The businesses that were in that area at that time were Wild Bill's Garage, Sherry's Groceries, and there was a drive-in theater and a tavern. John and Mary bought one of Paulson's three-room houses and they bought three extra lots for a total of $1,600. Actually, it was a two bathroom house. There were three rooms, plus a small bathroom with a shower stool and sink, but built on the outside of the house was a small concrete block washroom with a laundry tub, space for a washing machine and a toilet. You had to go outside to get to it, but actually this turned out to be quite convenient. When more of their family arrived in the area, they set up tents and they had a toilet available for their use, and it was handy for the kids, too, because they didn't have to come in the house. There were about eight houses in Paulson’s Plats and several of the families living there wanted to grow a garden and tried, but it just didn't work. The canal was south of them and so much water seeped into their yard that nothing would grow. Now John and Mary lived there two years before the big flood of 1948. Being right on the river they were flooded out. They moved into a tent on what is now Highway 12. Each morning they would get up and look over to see what things were like where their house was. One morning, they found their very own icebox had floated loose and right up to the bank below where they were camped. John fished it out, cleaned it up, and they could use it again. During this time, they would go to a washateria. They would wash their clothes and hang them on the bushes to dry. Mary would rent an iron long enough to press three shirts, which would get John through a week's work. Nothing else would be ironed because of the cost of renting the iron. Now when they were there in Paulson’s Plats, there was ice delivery for their icebox. But there wasn't any ice delivery in town because nobody was allowed to go into town, no deliveries of any kind. As Mary said, they just didn't, but they were afraid people would blab about what was going on. Well the water finally receded and they went out to check their house. There were big holes in the walls, the wood flooring had come off and washed down the river, presumably into the Pacific Ocean. The kitchen floor didn't come loose because the wood stove was heavy enough to keep it in place. Mary's dad and the Red Cross came to help put in new wallboard and flooring so they could move back into their house. Another problem during the time of the flood was getting to work at Hanford. At that time, the bridge across the Yakima was down at river level, and during the flood, no one could cross it. John had a ride that would take him going up across the Horse Heaven Hills and around. One day, he missed his ride and had to fly to work. He walked a mile south to the airport, and for $3 could catch a plane that would take him across the river. A shuttle would meet the plane and then take the folks on out to work. When John and Mary got back into their house, they had a problem with drinking water. They had a 100 foot well and after the flood, the water was not drinkable. John pumped the well out and poured a gallon of Clorox down it. He repeated the process nine times before the water was safe to drink. One weekend, the family went on a road trip the Yakima. Mary left her purse at a stop and they didn't miss it for ten miles. They were absolutely sick when they figured it out. They had to go back and get it since all their ration coupons were in it, as well as their money. It added another 20 miles to their trip, and they didn't think they had enough gas to get home and the gas stations wouldn't sell to them after hours. Well, they went back, got her purse, and headed to Richland and sure enough, they ran out of gas. They sat there bundled up and cold and finally a trucker stopped. He was going to get gas someplace because they would sell to trucks after hours and he said he'd come back and help them. When he finally returned, he said give me your container and I'll get you some gas. Well there was a problem, they didn't have a container. The only thing they could think of was John's rubber boots. The trucker put 10 boots full of gas in their car and they made it home. One of Mary's friends, who lived in Richland proper, took in boarders and cooked meals for three people that lived in Sunnyside. They went home on weekends, but part of the deal was that they gave her part of their ration coupons. This friend also had a small coupe to drive. There were shortages of everything, and when someone heard there was a line somewhere, everyone got excited. They never knew what would be for sale, but it didn't matter. She would drive through the neighborhood tooting her horn and the women would come out and jump into the car. Sometimes some would even hang onto the running board. They would get in line, and then find out what was for sale. It didn't matter, they would buy it and if they didn't need it, their friends did. What is now Columbia Center was a garbage dump. When you shop there today, you sometimes think it still is. One family gathering place was Howard Amon Park, which had a swimming pool. The family would have a picnic ready, and when Dad got home from work, they would head for the park. Mom would stake out a picnic spot and Dad and kids would head for the pool. They would wait in line, oh, 40 to 50 minutes. You could be in the pool for 30 minutes, and then everybody got out and a new group got in. Obviously, there were more people than would fit in the pool. The community celebrated Richland Days on Labor Day weekend for a few years. This changed to Atomic Frontier Days with parades and celebrations, and then this was combined to make the Benton Franklin County Fair. In 1949, the government was building the dam at Umatilla and they condemned the land in the Columbia Park area and bought everyone out. John and Mary were able to get a three bedroom prefab in Richland and they paid $37 a month rent. In their block on Snow Street, the government paid for everything but the rent. The trash trucks came right to your back door where the garbage cans were in a little shed and took them from there. There was one lawnmower for the block, a reel-type push mower, not that there was much gas. There was one phone outside on a pole for the block. The housewives could call housing for mousetraps, they were brought out and baited. Then you called housing to collect the traps and the mice. When they bought their ranch house, the monthly payment was huge, $76. It was nearly double what their rent had been and they didn't know if they could afford it. The house cost $10,500 and if you committed to stay there for a certain length of time, the purchase price went down $800. They gladly made that commitment. When there was a wedding, you gave a lot of thought to what would make a nice and useful gift. At one particular wedding, Mary and a friend with together and bought a nice pair of salad tongs. Then to make it more special, Mary wrote a poem to go with the gift. “Life is a salad, carrots for sunshine, onions for tears, cucumbers and celery for peace through the years, tomatoes the acid that sometimes make way into the tranquility of the day, radishes and peppers for garnish and frills, next comes the lettuce for paying the bills. Toss together with love for the dressing. May your bowl of salad have God's richest blessing.” Now you remember John and Mary had to promise to live in the house for a few years to get a reduced price, they lived there the rest of their lives. Then I have another story about Dick and Liz. Dick and Liz lived in Tennessee and Dick worked construction. This work provided a nomadic way of life for this family and their three small children. Dick would get a job, the family would pack up and move to the newest location. As soon as they could find a place to live, Dick would be off to work. It was Liz's job to settle the family, locate the grocery stores, the church, and make friends with the neighbors. They would stay six months to a year and then they would move to another job. They worked in Nebraska, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Tennessee. Liz was tired of moving around, she had a dream. She dreamt of a yard where she could grow flowers, she dreamt of living in one place for the rest of her life, not starting over every few months. Well, Dick went to Memphis one day and when he got home he showed her his train ticket to Hanford, Washington. He had been given a job on a construction crew at Hanford and they gave them a train ticket to get there. He and Liz talked and the next day he got on the train for Washington State. When he arrived in Pasco, he was met at the train station and given a ride directly to the job site and put to work. Well, Liz saw her dream of a home and permanence fly out the window. Again she had to make travel plans. Where on earth was Hanford, what would be there, where would they live, would they have schools, would there be any kind of civilization? Washington State was 3,000 miles away. Well, Liz didn't question the arrangements, her place was with her family and her husband was the provider. She would go where he was working. Liz made arrangements to bring the children out to Hanford. She had to make choices, what she could take with her and what she had to leave behind. She had a friend who worked for the railroad and he helped her as she packed her linens and their dishes and clothes. One large item she couldn't leave behind was her treadle sewing machine. She needed it for making and mending clothes. Her friend from the railroad helped her to get her belongings shipped, and then took her and the children to the station and put them on the train for this place, clear across the country, called Hanford. The trains were used both for civilian passengers and for military transport, they were crowded with soldiers. Before Liz left, her friend took her aside and warned her not have anything to do with the soldiers on the train, it might not be safe. Liz got on the train and was surrounded by soldiers. Many were just teenagers, 17 or 18 and very homesick. Others were young family men who had left their wives and children behind. They were delighted to see Liz and her children, and they couldn't do enough for them. The trip was much easier than anticipated—until they neared their destination. The train came across the Blue Mountains and was nearing Pendleton, Oregon when it stopped in the middle of nowhere. Was this Hanford? No, but there was a train derailed in front of them, they could go no further. They sat on the train for eight hours. Even though it was October, the passenger car was soon stifling since the noon-day sun was glaring down on them. People opened the train windows and soon they were covered with dust and soot. Finally, the track was cleared away and they got the Pendleton, but the train to Pasco was gone. Liz didn't know how they'd get the rest of the way or even where Pasco was from Pendleton. She didn't know how she could get in touch with her husband; she didn't have a cellphone, of course. The passengers were told there was a school bus about ready to take the kids home from school and they could get to Umatilla on that. Their train tickets would be honored. Liz wrote out a telegram to Dick and asked a porter to send it for her and she handed him $0.50. He said, not enough, and reached over and took $1.00 out of her hand, and then he never sent the telegram. Well, Liz and the kids were first in line to get on the school bus and then were told they had to go in and buy tickets. They went in the depot and they were told their train tickets were okay after all, but they were now last in line to get on the bus. But they did get on. They climbed on the bus with schoolkids, Liz carrying the baby. The bus was packed to capacity, but a man who had a seat stood and let Liz sit down. As a school children were dropped off, seats became available. Liz's kids thought they were going to Kenny-wick and the school children all laughed at that and taught them the name of the town. They got to Umatilla and were eventually put on a bus to Pasco. Well, Dick hadn't gotten any telegram, but had heard about the bus situation and was there to meet them and Liz wondered where they were going to sleep that night. Imagine her relief when Dick had told her he had just that day got a three bedroom prefab for his family and it was furnished. The furniture was minimal, but functional. There was one double bed and the necessary number of single beds for the children, there was a table and six chairs, a couch and a chair, a stove and an icebox. The only linen was one comforter for the double bed. There were no curtains, no trees, no grass, no flowers, but you know, it really didn't matter. They were in a house, they were together again as a family. They went to bed that night, the children were covered with their coats and Dick and Liz used the comforter, and the next day things got much better. All the things she had shipped arrived. They had dishes and pans and linens and clothes and even her sewing machine. Soon there were curtains at the window, trees, grass, and flowers took while longer. They were cared for in their little house. If the house needed painting, it was painted for them. If the furniture broke, it was replaced. If the light bulbs burned out somebody came and changed them. Dick's job was to work construction. Liz's job was to care for her husband and family. Everything they did was as a family. Neighbors would come over in the evenings; they’d put the children to bed and play pinochle. One night they decided to go out to a movie so they asked a neighbor to stay with the children, and Dick and Liz went to their first movie in Hanford. The first scene in the movie was of a fire burning in a fireplace, and that scene is etched in Liz's mind today. She can't remember anything else about the movie. Now their house didn't have a fireplace, but all she could see was their house on fire. She spent the entire movie worrying about her family and just knew her house would be gone when they got home. Well, her house and children were just fine, but she really didn't want to go to any movies after that. Few people had cars, and the Richland bus system was free and everyone used the buses. When some of the mothers wanted a chance to clean house without children underfoot they used the bus system. They would put the kids on the bus and let them ride to the end of the route and back home so they could cleanup house and maybe have a cup of coffee. Well they started going to the church and the second time they went, Liz was asked to teach Sunday school. She agreed and taught Sunday school most of the time for the next 45 years. One day she went to call on someone who had visited their church. There was a friendly Great Dane in the yard and when she knocked on the door, he came and stood patiently beside her. When the lady of the house invited her in, the gigantic dog walked in the house with her. He went in the kitchen area and curled up in the smallest area as a Great Dane can curl up in. After the visit, Liz started to leave and the owner of the house said don't forget your dog. Liz's reply was, that's not my dog; I thought he was your dog. Well, they shooed the dog outside and he wandered down the street until he came to his own home. There are stories of people not being able to find the right house when they come home. I expect the dog knew his house, he just wanted to meet the neighbors. Liz's dream had come true. She had a house and some permanence. She did have to move one more time, but that was only a couple miles north to a ranch house. She had lots of flowers in her yard, she raised her children and has been part of the same church family for 45 years. Dick passed away a few years ago, but Liz is still comfortable in her home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: That's great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Those are my stories— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: --from friends who grew up here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: I think that's great to just end it there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Bauman: I don’t--asking questions I don't think would-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX97109745"> Jackson: Okay. </div> Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 251 kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:21:10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donna Jackson Description An account of the resource An interview with Donna Jackson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-06: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/16/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/format Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford(Wash.) Pasco(Wash.) Richland(Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F282d79133f3fbaf20d1606a0a84e5aa6.jpg dd42e807bf426e60ed9a74ef24c02b08 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F16628f955b4b4836f11e22e38ba79262.mp4 0108b922f11ed437013cd0c242fe4e38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Roberts Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roberts, Carol Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Carol Roberts: I think I’ve talked to every organization in town about the history of this place. [LAUGHTER] Robert Bauman: Probably. Man One: Whenever you’re ready. Bauman: Okay. Man One: So, I’ll go ahead and start rolling. Bauman: Are you ready? We’ll go ahead and get started? Roberts: I’m ready anytime you are. Bauman: All right, great. Man One: We’re rolling. Bauman: Okay. Well, let’s start by just having you say your name for us. Roberts: Carol B. Roberts. Bauman: Roberts, okay, great. Thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and today is June 30th of 2015, and we’re conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start the interview by just asking you what brought you and your family here, and when did you come, and why did you come to Richland? Roberts: Well, my dad worked for DuPont in Denver, Colorado. He was an electrician, and I understand he was one of the very best. So when this came up, DuPont asked my dad to come out here. Well, my mom wasn’t happy about that, but then of course—[LAUGHTER] He came—he drove out here in his own car. They gave him tires and stuff like that. Because it was wartime, and things were rationed. But he could take his own car and he had his gas coupon. And he left the day after Christmas. Well, he got a site picked out—picked out a site for our house. When it was ready, we came out here and we landed at Wallula Gap—only it was Wallula Town at that time--to change trains. And we were supposed to go all the way into Kennewick. But my dad was waiting in Wallula—he couldn’t wait for it. And it was June the 20th, 1944, that we landed here. But my dad picked us up, had cost $5 tip to the porter to get us off the train. Because we were supposed to land in Kennewick, you know. I don’t know how they ever explained how five people disappeared—[LAUGHTER]—from that train. Anyhow, he was sent out to the B Reactor first. Of course, he landed in Pasco, and Pasco didn’t know anything about it. But he finally managed. He was one of the few—well, I don’t know—people that weren’t higher up that had a Q clearance to go to all the areas. That’s how my mom and sisters and I got here. And then when my husband got home from the service, after—well, it was in October after—he was with the Occupation Forces in Czechoslovakia. And he came home October the 21st, 1944, and went to work for DuPont. And that’s how we got here. Bauman: And, so what were your parents’ names? Roberts: My parents’ name was Bubnar. B-U-B-N-A-R. It’s Ukrainian. Bauman: What were your parents’ first names? Roberts: It’s Ukrainian for drummer. Bauman: Oh, okay. Roberts: So, I’m always such a cut-up, I’ve decided that my name Carol Catherine Bubnar means—Catherine is pure—and Pure Song of Delight Champion. Bauman: That’s a good name. Roberts: Yeah. Bauman: Sounds good. Roberts: It’s as good as any. Bauman: So your dad came out here in December ’43, right? Roberts: Right. Bauman: So there’s about six months between the time he came and you came. Roberts: Oh, yeah. Bauman: So was he able to write to you, and did he describe the place at all? Roberts: Well, he came home once and told us that—I think it was probably April that he came home and told us what was going on. And he told my mom that as soon as they decided that our house was ready, that they would come in and move all of our furniture. And we, including the dog, was to move into the hotel in Boulder—we lived in Boulder—and move into the hotel. All expenses paid. So we were there three weeks when my mother got the notice to be in Denver at a certain time, have the dog crated—[LAUGHTER]—you know, all that sort of stuff. And we got on in Denver at 4:00 on—well, let’s see, it took us two and a half days. And we landed here on the 20th. So that was about 17th or 18th, that we left Denver at 4:00. Well, we weren’t allowed off the train. And the porter was very good about bringing cards, to play cards and stuff like that for us. But they only served two meals. One was between 6:00 and 8:00 in the morning, breakfast. And 4:00 to 7:00 at night for dinner. But this wouldn’t hold kids. They get hungry in between. Well, I’ve always had an idea. So I said to the porter, if you’ll let me off—because they used to sell sandwiches and stuff in the depot station there—I’d go buy some egg salad sandwiches and stuff for the kids. And he hemmed and hawed about it, and we came up with $5. And that was a lot of money back then. So he turned the other way and I slipped off out of the car, got some food for the kids. And I don’t know whether I would have that kind of bravery today. But I sure didn’t want those kids hungry. [LAUGHTER] So, anyhow, like I say, we got here, and our house was supposed to be ready. Well, when we stepped out of the car, and our feet—dust all over the place, all over our shoes—my mom started to cry. She didn’t want to come anyway. And she says, Johnny, you have brought us to a lot of places—because we lived in coal camps—he was very well, because electricians were very rare then. Anyhow, we went in, the lights weren’t on, the water wasn’t on, and so we had to spend three days in the trans court until it got ready. Well, that didn’t suit my mom either. She always wanted to go back to Walsenburg, where her mother and brother and my sister were buried. And she wanted to go back, and that’s all she talked about. Then all of the sudden one day, she said, no, I don’t want to go back to Walsenburg to be buried. I want to be buried here! And I want to be cremated. So that settled that. We didn’t have to worry about anything else. But then my dad was offered a job out in Hawai’i as an electrician after the war, getting Pearl Harbor back in shape and all that sort of thing. And he would be there for two and a half years. They would pay him, oh, a quarter of what his salary was, send my mom a quarter to live on, and the rest they would deposit so that when the two and a half years was up, he would have the money plus interest. I don’t remember, I think interest was only about 1% or something like that, which is better than what we’re getting now! Bauman: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Roberts: And my mom said absolutely not. She wasn’t going to be by herself. We were all able—my sisters and I, except for my baby sister—we were all able to take care of ourselves and help mom. But no. My mom didn’t like change at all. So he just stayed here until he got sick. He had cancer of the lung. And of course, he was given benefits. He died ‘65. Anyhow, it was something like 25 years after he died that they notified me that we had money coming. It was $75,000 for me and my one sister that was living. That was so much fun, not having to worry about taxes, and just spend it any way you wanted to. You didn’t have to budget for it. So all of my grandkids and all of us, whole family, I divided the money up. And I don’t know what my sister did with hers. But it was a fun time. Bauman: Now, was cancer a result of working at Hanford then? Roberts: That’s what they said, that it was—yeah. Whatever it is that caused the cancer. But it was funny how we had an expo over at the—it’s the Red Lion Kennewick now. We was going around to the different vendors, and I came to this one and I saw this picture of the Day’s Pay. And I said to the girl that this was what—my family here. And she asked me about my dad, and she said, I think he’s eligible. So she took the information and first thing you know, they called me and told me all about this. It took three months to get the money. But I just couldn’t understand how my dad, he always said, I will always take care of you—that how he could manage even after all these years to be sure. But it’s been a good life here. We’ve had change and stuff like that, but we never had to worry about money, because everybody had a fairly good job. I don’t remember that we had all this homelessness and stuff like that that we have now. Bauman: Now, when you came here, you and your mom and your sisters came in 1944. So how old were you when you came? Roberts: 22. Bauman: Okay. And how old were your sisters? Roberts: Well, Dorothy was four years younger than me. So I was 22, she was 18. And then my sister, Evelyn, was six. She was my folks’ afterthought. Bauman: And then—you were married already, right? Because your husband was in the service. Roberts: Yes. I got married after I finished nurses’ training. You couldn’t marry and be in the nursing class if you were married. But I didn’t take the certification test in Colorado, because I knew I was going to be coming here. When I got here, I fully intended to work as a nurse, but my dad had never been happy with that decision. And he says, they really need teachers. And so I got my emergency teaching certificate, and I didn’t have a steady class—I was a substitute in various places. Then after the war, they told me I had to get my teachers’ certification. Well, I wasn’t about to go through all that. I didn’t want to teach, and besides that, my sister became very ill. And I was taking care of her two kids plus my two kids, and I just said no. And I’ve just been doing everything but collecting a paycheck. [LAUGHTER] I’ve spent—I’ve got 8,000 at the Kadlec Auxiliary, and I should have more, but I kind of got involved in some other things. I’m a 70-year member of the Girl Scouts. And I’m on the Library Foundation Board. And then, of course, Kiwanis. I have been a Kiwanian for 24 years, and I have been their newsletter editor for that long. I didn’t intend to do that, but somehow or another—it was supposed to be temporary, but you know, temporary isn’t spelled right. [LAUGHTER] It means—you have to have to spell everlasting instead of temporary. But it’s something for me to do now, because I can’t do all the active things. I can’t climb stairs and all that sort of thing. And I don’t hear well. Well, somehow or another, the warranty has run out and there’s no place to buy extra parts. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, when you father came to work in 1943 and you came in 1944, did you have any idea what sort of work he was doing? Did you know what he was doing at Hanford? Roberts: All we knew was he was an electrician, and that was it. And he absolutely refused to talk about anything at work. He did—I don’t know what kind of an invention it was—but he invented something, and DuPont paid him for it, and they got the patent, whatever it was. I have no idea what it was, only that he that he got—I think it was $8. That was a lot of money. My husband had invented something, too, and DuPont bought it. But he only worked for DuPont for ten months, and then of course, GE took over. But he only worked for DuPont ten months when he got home from the service. Bauman: Your husband? And what sort of job did he have? Roberts: He was the chief power operator for the N Reactor. And his only boss was in Washington, DC. He was in charge of everything—the power house. And then he got sick. He worked for them for 32 years, and then he passed away. He had cardiomyopathy, which was very new 32 years ago. They didn’t know very much about that. But now, they know all about it. They know a lot of things. Bauman: Right, right. So, when did you find out what was being made at Hanford, or the role that Hanford was playing in the war? Was it after the atomic bombs were dropped? Roberts: Uh-huh. And that was something else. We—my mom and dad and I were out in Grandview picking peaches when the bomb was dropped. And of course, we were out in the orchard when the woman who owned the property came out and told us to get off her property, that we were nothing but murderers. And we had no idea what she was talking about. My dad tried--and she says, take those peaches with you. My dad tried to pay her, but she said, no, I won’t take blood money. So we came home, turned on the radio, and of course, we knew then what had happened, that they had dropped the first bomb. And then we were—the fire sirens alarms were supposed—the first stations were supposed to turn out when the Japanese surrendered, but they didn’t surrender, as you know. And then they dropped the other bomb. And they still didn’t surrender. So they—the higher ups, Truman and all of them, they didn’t know what they were going to do. Because they only had two bombs. But they weren’t going to let the Japanese know it. But finally, on the 14th of August, the Japanese surrendered. And the official surrender was signed in September, making the total war over with. And MacArthur signed the papers. Well, I don’t know if you wanted to know that, but that’s what I remember. Bauman: Right. So what was the community of Richland like in 1944, 1945? Roberts: Well, I’ll tell you. We had a bunch of alphabet houses that had been built. And there were no paved streets. And sometimes you’d go someplace and when you wanted to come back, there was no street there. They had done something else. There were very few houses, track houses as we called them, left. Everything had been torn down and made room for the government houses. And there’s one on George Washington Way—it’s as you enter town and it’s on the left-hand side. And it’s just been newly painted and everything, and it has a little bit different—they put a porch and stuff on it. So it’s a little bit different, but it is one of the original houses. I wrote a history of all the houses that were left. Bauman: Where was your house, the house that you moved in to? Roberts: We lived—my dad picked out 316 Casey. That’s—oh, I don’t know how to tell you where it was, but it was on the corner of Comstock and Casey. Bauman: Okay. Roberts: And he had a lot of—my dad was raised on a farm, and he never got over it. So, there was a lot of vacant space. And they gave him permission to go out into the area to dig up plants and trees and stuff from what was left over from those people who had moved out of the area. He had a persimmon tree that he was very proud of. But it never bore any fruit. What he didn’t know was that it had to be pollinized. He had to have two. And he grew roses. He belonged to the Rose Society and everything like that. But when we first came, where the Richland Village—the Richland Theater is now—Players Theater—was the Richland movie. And I’ll never forget that movie after the bomb had been dropped. The Song of Bernadette was being played, and I wanted to see that in the worst way. We got into the movie, and was watching it when all of the sudden, the lights went out. There was plain darkness. Well, we just knew the Japanese had sneaked over! [LAUGHTER] And had done something to us. Well—very orderly, they were nice—the manager told us to leave the building. We left the building, and waited, only to find out it was lightning that had—[LAUGHTER]—the Japanese had nothing to do with it. [LAUGHTER] We had a treaty with the Wanapum—Johnny Buck—with the Wanapum Indians that he could go through the barricade to Gable Mountain, and do whatever they had to do. And he identified all the members as tribe members with him. And he made sure when he left that he had the right number going back. It was one of the few treaties that the US ever kept with the Indians, or so we were told. But there were just a lot of things—little things—that doesn’t creep up in history, but makes history interesting. Bauman: Right. Roberts: That here we were, breaking treaties, but we did manage to keep one of them. Now that they’re—when they’re talking about removing the Nike missiles from the top of the Rattlesnake Mountain. And some of us said no, and others say, yes, let it go back. The Indians didn’t want it there—I should say Native Americans now, but it’s easy to keep the vernacular in historical content. So, what else? Bauman: So, there was a theater here, how about shopping? Was there a place to go shopping in ’45? Roberts: No. They had—where the John Dam Plaza is, on the other side was a store called the John Dam Grocery Store. And they—the government—wanted him to take over and furnish, but he didn’t want to go through all the red tape and all. But they built, oh, just construction thing all down—at the time, when government took over, George Washington Way was called Benton. Yeah, they had the grocery store, and then they had the beverage store right next to it. And on the corner, they had the post office. And we had to go get our own mail—they didn’t deliver, of course. [LAUGHTER] If we wanted to go do any shopping—real shopping—we had to go to Kennewick or Pasco or Walla Walla. But you had to have a C gas stamp, too. If you used your C gas stamp, you were grounded until the end of the month, when you got your new stamps. And then, of course, we paid for meat with red stamps, and canned goods with blue stamps. And you had shoe stamps, and sugar stamps, and, I don’t know. I still have a partial ration book in my collection. So that was kind of interesting. But I remember one time, I went to the store for my mom. And I went on the bus, and they dropped me off, I got what we wanted, went up to the cashier. And she was—well, she wasn’t exactly friendly. [LAUGHTER] And I handed her this $10 bill that my mom had given me. And she said, I want so many blue points and so many meat points, whatever. And I said, yeah, and I handed her the ten and was getting my book. And she said, I said! I want! And I said, okay! And I tried—I got the stamps out and picked up my things and left, only to find out that I still had the $10 bill when I got home. [LAUGHTER] Well, I’m one of these people that money doesn’t mean very much to me. As long as I can have enough to buy food and buy a toy for my grandkids, I’m okay—and pay what bills I have. But I didn’t know whether I wanted to go back up and give her the $10, or whether I should keep it. Well, I finally decided I’d just keep it and put it in the church collection the next Sunday. And that’s what I did. And I don’t know—I hope she didn’t get in too much trouble, being $10 short on the cash register. Bauman: Right. Roberts: And then they would get shipments of things through the day. One of them was towels—bath towels. Well, my dad, he didn’t have a bath towel. And so he went up to buy one, stood in line, because he knew they were there. When he got there, there was no towels—they’d all been given away. So the next day he did it two or three times. Finally, the cashier, or whoever was dispensing them, felt sorry for my dad, so she put one under the counter. So when he got in line, he got his. And he lived in the woman’s dorm, which is now the Yakima Federal and Loan. After the government gave up, it became the Saddler Hotel, and now it’s the Yakima Savings. See? I’ve watched it grow. Bauman: You have! Well, before we started talking, you showed me a photo of Uptown Shopping Center. Do you remember any of that, when it first opened, or being constructed? How did that change things in Richland? Roberts: Oh! It was great. We had some place to shop! That little bit in the middle—that was J.C. Penney’s. And, boy, that was really coming uptown, you know. And then they got other things in there. I can’t remember the stores, all the little stores that was there, but I know there was a restaurant. John Dam’s Plaza was called the Volunteer Park before the government took over. And the Women’s Club took care of it. They mowed, they watered, the dug holes for the trees. And so part of that is still probably about 100 years old. [LAUGHTER] And I’m very proud of it, because I belong to the General Federation of Women’s Clubs, too. But the fact—we didn’t think about sprinklers, I guess. They didn’t think—well, we didn’t have them, maybe, sprinklers. But they toted hoses and, like I say, mowed the lawn with a hand mower. No, there’s no power mowers then. We got—where the Allied Arts is was where they dispensed grass seed and lawn mowers and hoses and everything for everyone to keep up their yard. And then the garbage—we didn’t put the garbage cans out, they came and got them and emptied them and brought them back. And then they also furnished the coal, and just before winter would set in, they’d fill our coal bins in the basement. And we didn’t pay—we paid rent, but it included water and all that we pay now. I can’t think of anything else. But, oh, they took the rent out of the paychecks. When my husband came home, we lived in a B house on Marshall. And they would dump the coal in, and one time they left the window open where they dumped it. And we got overextended with mice and had to get that taken care of—set traps and stuff. Because—oh, I don’t know that we had the rat poison stuff that they had today. Well, they don’t even have the—well, they do have rat poison, yeah. Bauman: You also mentioned Day’s Pay a little bit earlier, and you showed me a photo—you’re in the [INAUDIBLE]. What can you tell me about that day? What do you remember? Roberts: Oh, I wrote a paper on how—you know, they had the barricade, and you couldn’t go out into that area. The Day’s Pay was—the money that was collected by the carpenters—all employees were buying war bonds, but the carpenters wanted to do something more. So they decided to buy an airplane. Well, they raised $300,000 for the plane. So when it was getting ready to be sent over to Europe, it stopped here. They lifted the barricade. We couldn’t take cameras or anything in, but we could go in. My dad managed to get my sisters—and my mother wouldn’t go, she just wouldn’t go—and I in to watch the ceremony. And then I remember, oh, those—[LAUGHTER]—those pilots, they were so handsome in their uniform—watching them. And then they got in the plane, and they took off. They lowered their wings to say goodbye to us, and sailed off into the wild blue yonder. It was a magnificent—awesome sight. That great, big plane, up there against—and it was a hot day. It was July the 20th, 1944, and it was a hot day. I don’t know if it was a 100 degrees like it is today. But it was hot. And watching it against the blue sky. Well, it made 26 missions over Europe. And every member of the crew received the oak leaf cluster. Then the plane, after the war, they took it to Arizona, and was there. And then of course there was the Enola Gay that dropped the bomb. And they decided that they were going to bring both planes to Richland, and have them on display—a parks type thing. But by the time they got theirselves moving, they had destroyed the planes. So that ended that dream. [LAUGHTER] Although, the Miss Tri-Cities boat for the boat races, they kept it. [LAUGHTER] But it was an awesome sight. I can still see that plane up there with blue sky. Bauman: You mentioned the boat races. Do you remember any special community events in the ‘40s and ‘50s, things that happened that brought the community together, or--? Roberts: Well, Richland had what they called Atomic Frontier Days. And then Pasco had—I don’t know what they called it. And Kennewick had one. And they each had their own—Kennewick’s was the Grape Festival, I think it was. Can’t remember Pasco. I’ll have to think on that. And I know Sharon Tate was Frontier Queen one year, and she was also the Autorama Queen. And my daughter was the runner-up on that. And I was very unhappy with that. I didn’t want her to be, but I didn’t want to deny her, either. All the sponsors of the girls paid for their dresses, except Buick, which was sponsoring my daughter. I had to pay for her dress. And that didn’t suit me very well. My Scots ancestry—still shows. I laugh at my grandson, Craig. I’ll say, well, I don’t think so, it costs so much. He says, Grams, why are you worrying about money? [LAUGHTER] So it’s just, I don’t know, genetic I guess. I heard this story that my great-grandmother was so tight that if she had an orange, she would peel the orange, give the orange to my grandmother, and then she, herself, would eat the peel. She wouldn’t throw it away. And then she lived in—this was in Scotland, at the Gatehouse for the Fleet River. There was about ten families that lived there, at the Gatehouse for the Fleet River. And they would get an ox bone and then the first one would boil it for so long, and then they’d pass it on down. And then it was somebody else’s turn to have it first, and like that. But they didn’t always buy ten new oxtail bones. Bauman: I want to ask you about one other event that happened, that was when President Kennedy came in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. Did you attend that event at all? Roberts: Oh, yeah. Bauman: And what do you remember about that? Roberts: Only that I thought it was a lot of malarkey, just because Kennedy was there, and everybody didn’t really come to see the opening of the reactor. They came to see the President. And he came to see—or to dedicate the reactor. And I—oh, I don’t know—I think sometimes that we put too much emphasis on things that we shouldn’t do. But I was working as the bookkeeper in the Girl Scout office, and I had to take time off to do that. So we were closed during that time. But I don’t know, I wasn’t impressed. And then GE asked my husband to be the chief operator of the N Reactor. So that’s how he got there. He started out as a coal handler at 100-F, and worked up to B operator, we called him. And then he became chief operator. And his only boss was in Washington, DC. Bauman: And you—when we were talking earlier, you mentioned there had been four generations of your family that had worked at Hanford. Your father, right? Roberts: My father, my mother, my sister—she worked the switchboard—then my son, yeah, and my husband, and my granddaughter Cori worked for Battelle, and my daughter-in-law worked for—well, she just retired. And I think that’s all of them. But there’s four generations there. I never did work in the area. I just worked being nosey all around. A know-it-all. Bauman: I wanted to go back and ask you, you mentioned that when you first came here, your mother wasn’t especially happy about the place. What was your first impression of the place, do you remember what you thought of the place? Roberts: Oh, I thought it was the start of a big adventure. I really did. But what do young people know? [LAUGHTER] And we were only supposed to be here five years, and then it was supposed to be all over. But somehow or another, the birth of the atomic age created a lot of things that they thought they could use and carry on. And a lot of people did go back home after the bomb was dropped. But we didn’t. My dad was happy with his job, and Mom had kind of, well, settled in a little. And I think she decided, when Dad—when she wouldn’t let Dad take the Pearl Harbor job, that she’d better do something. But Kadlec Hospital—I can remember when it was built, and they moved the hospital from Hanford to Richland. And it was kind of across the thing. One wing was for the dental offices and stuff, another wing was for the pediatrics, another wing was general, and then they had the one wing for psychiatric. But they only had one bedroom in it. So they didn’t figure people were going to lose their minds. And then it was in—I think it was in 19—oh, shoot. It had to be—I was president of the auxiliary ’84 to ’86, so it had to be ’82, when the hospital was opened, built. And it was three stories. But the top story was used for years just as storage, because they didn’t have enough beds. But one story that we really enjoyed was— Somebody was sleeping in the beds. And we didn’t know who it was. But we do know the bed was left unmade, and there was no sugar or crackers and stuff in the NICU thing. Every morning, it was empty. Well, they never did catch who it was, but it was about three weeks before it finally ended. But we thought it was funny—[LAUGHTER]—that we couldn’t catch him. And we were sure it was a man. [LAUGHTER] And another time, it was about 11:30 at night, and I was working the emergency shift. And this man come in, and he wanted to go upstairs to visit his girlfriend who had just had a baby. And I said, well, I’m sorry, but visiting hours are over. And he says, it’s my girlfriend and my baby, and I get to see it anytime I want! I says, I’m sorry. And about that time, another auxiliary come up and she said, if you’re so sure you want to see it, why didn’t you marry her before the baby got here? Well, of course he threw a holy fit. And I had, since I was president of the auxiliary, I had to talk to her and say we can’t say those kind of things. But my grandson, Craig, he and his mother had been in an automobile accident down here on—oh, well, it’s Jadwin, down there, and McMurray. And he was in the emergency room waiting to be checked out, to see if he was okay. And here I was, and he heard this guy say he was going to drop a bomb on us if he didn’t get to see. And poor Craig, when he saw me, he said, Grams, are they really going to—[LAUGHTER] I said, no, he isn’t. But he was only about, oh, eight years old, and it really sounded something. So I have a lot of stories like that. Bauman: How long were you with the auxiliary—or how long have you been with the Kadlec Auxiliary? Roberts: 34 years. I got 8,000 volunteer hours. And I was the gift shop whatever. And I was also the printer’s devil, as they called me: I helped the printer with printing all the manuals and stuff. And one thing that we did was—AIDS first came on the scene and we first started talking about it. The Public Health wanted a manual to have classes to show how to take care of these patients. So somehow or another, Kadlec print shop got involved, and we made—Tony, the printer and I, we made 1,700 manuals, saved the Public Health $30,000 for materials. We did a lot of good work. But I sometimes did have an emergency thing, and Tony’d call me up in the middle of the night—it wasn’t the middle of the night, but 7:00 or 8:00 at night. And I’d go down and I’d help him get it done. Bauman: So you’ve been here since June 20th of 1944, so 71 years now. How has Richland been as a place to live? Roberts: Well, I grew up in coal camps. So it was different. I didn’t have to carry in coal, I didn’t have to carry in water. But my dad always made sure that we had electricity in the house we were living in. I never did feel that I was needy or anything. I mean, my sisters and I had a great time doing whatever we wanted. Maybe it was hard on my folks, I don’t know. But my dad always had a job. He never had to go on WPA or anything. But he did go away a lot to jobs other places. And we stayed where we were for a while. But, I don’t know, there was all kinds of things, like explosions. I remember one of my dearest friends, her father was in an explosion, and they had to leave. And then we had a lot of foreigners. Especially the—and they were called Mexicans, not Hispanics—Mexicans that were there. And they didn’t speak English. So we learned, even how to swear in—[LAUGHTER]—in Mexican. The equal rights things still weren’t—they hired these people—the blacks—to work in the mine, but they couldn’t live in the camp. They had to live across the railroad. And one of my dearest friends was the cutest little black girl—pigtails, and all. And we were in fourth grade, and we’d walk home together. But she couldn’t come in to my house. And so I’d walk with her to her house, but I couldn’t go in her house. But her mother always had big chunks of bread and jam—they couldn’t afford butter. And we’d sit on the porch and eat it. And the porch was as clean—you could use it without having a plate under it. But we got along real well, just that way—not going into each other’s house. But I think about it now—at the time we never thought anything about it, we just knew it was a rule. And then here, we had the black side and the white side. They had fountains where the Hers and His beauty shop, right across the street from there—they had fountains, and one was labeled Negro Only. And then before they opened up the Parkade and all, government would bring in top-notch entertainers, like Kay Kaiser. And they brought in Marian Anderson. But she couldn’t stay at the [INAUDIBLE] quarters because she was black. And she had to stay in a hotel in Pasco, because Kennewick didn’t allow them, neither. Kennewick—you were caught on the street after 6:00, you were arrested if you were black. So, I don’t know. We’ve come a long ways, yet we’ve got a long way to go to really [SIGH] understand each other. Bauman: You’ve seen a lot of change in Richland, I imagine, over the years. Roberts: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Bauman: A lot of growth, obviously, of the population— Roberts: Yeah. I was thinking about the barber shop, Ganzel’s, and how everybody—their chairs were always full of the people getting their hair cut. But I cut my husband’s hair, and my mom cut my dad’s hair. So, we didn’t have to worry about barber shops. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Well, was there anything else that you want to share with us? Any— Roberts: Well, I don’t know, it seems to me like I’ve been talking your—[LAUGHTER]—talking so much, I don’t know what I’ve said. And it’s all kind of not falling in place. One thing, probably, is Central Church. Bauman: Oh. Roberts: How it was called the United Protestant Church. There were 14 cooperating church sponsors. And the Sunday school was held in the Sacajawea—which is torn down as a parking lot now—Sacajawea School. And the church was held in the high school auditorium. Then we needed a church—the Catholics needed a church, too. And it was the one time the two denominations worked together with the government to build the two churches. It was interesting. I was on the board that was part of the negotiations. Of course, the churches were just typical army style churches. And now look what they are. [LAUGHTER] You never know. And then, they started the school and then—they did, the Catholics—and then they built a convent for the nuns who taught the school. We did that. Oh, and then high school—the schools, we had—when the government took over, we had two schools: the high school, and an elementary school—elementary to the eighth grade, and then high school to graduation. Well, after the government took over, the school became—[LAUGHTER]—I say a saloon. You could go—anyway the blue laws in Washington said that women could not sit at the bar. And so we had to sit at—not that I ever was in there—I use we—our family was teetotalers—my dad, everybody. They had to sit at the table. And they couldn’t be served unless they were sitting at the table. But they weren’t even supposed to be in there, unless they—so that was kind of unusual. And then Howard Amon Park. They had—the government—had changed it to Riverside Park. And it stayed Riverside for a couple, three or four years. And it was Howard Amon Park before that. And the family, as well as a number of other people wanted the name back to Howard Amon. And they changed the name. But when the floor came along, there was a gazebo that they band concerts on Sunday. And when the flood came, it inundated the swimming pool and took the gazebo away. They couldn’t have the swimming pool because it was contaminated. That’s when they built the wading pool. Bauman: Oh, okay, sure. Roberts: I don’t know. There’s a lot of stuff, I could talk all day, I guess. [LAUGHTER] I’m just proud of what we’ve accomplished. But I was proud of what we accomplished in the coal camps, too. We were very close, and there was a lot of funny things that happened in the camp. But we all—the teenagers, we were all together. We didn’t separate to different groups. And then when the gypsies came to camp, that was something else, again. We were very, very sure that one of us was going to get taken away with—the gypsies took kids. But my thought always was, they’ve got so many kids, why do they want any more? Why do they want to take somebody else’s? But you know kids. They think things that other people don’t. Unless you have something else, I— Bauman: Yeah, this has been very interesting, very helpful. You have a lot of memories about Richland. Roberts: And I have a lot of papers that I’ve written. I have written a paper, and it won first place, grand prize in a creative writing contest. It’s called Modern Pioneers. And it tells about all the things that women did in Richland, and to bring it into modern world with Pat Merrill being the first mayor of the city. And—oh, what’s—[INAUDIBLE] who worked with—to develop the bomb. But she was hoping they wouldn’t find it. Then [INAUDIBLE] she designed the reactor. So women—if it hadn’t been for women, we wouldn’t have got anywhere. And then I wrote a very short history of how the Manhattan Project came about. And it, too, won first prize in a creative contest. The judge commented that even when he read the first paragraph, he knew it was going to be the first. [LAUGHTER] And so, I don’t know whether I won legally or not. [LAUGHTER] So, that’s it. Bauman: Great. Well, thank you very much for coming in today, and for sharing your stories and memories about Richland. Roberts: Oh, one thing I want you to know. Have you seen the book Nuclear Legacy? Bauman: Yes. Roberts: I think we need to get that back in schools, because it does tell how we came about from the Indians, and then the Russian side—the kids writing about that. But I think it’s one of the best books that we’ve got on the whole history. And I got a lot of them. I even have Einstein’s—[LAUGHTER]—books, and Heidelberg. I got into an argument with Tom Powers, the author of the book. He came here mostly, I think, to sell books. But anyhow, I suppose, he said that we did not need the atomic bomb. That it was this and that. And he made a couple comments and it—[SIGH]—we were all there listening, and I challenged him on what he said. But, do you know, when the Germans took over in Belgium, we knew that something was going on. But we got it first. And Hitler decided on the V-bombs—what was it called? Something. I can’t remember the name, now, but he thought they had enough power to go across the channel to London and bomb them. So that’s it. Bauman: All right, thanks very much. Hold on a second, we’re going to need to take care of your— Man one: Microphone. Bauman: Your microphone off. Roberts: Okay. Man one: Yeah just a little—you can put it down by the desk. Roberts: Okay. Man one: Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:05:04 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 252 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carol Roberts Description An account of the resource An interview with Carol Roberts conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-16: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-6-30 Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) B Reactor DuPont General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F32fb8658e4aca0d1734878f827ea42fb.jpg 00b7f5d729867c5c081147ae76e4dca8 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff62e0062c5e7327f5afc1d565712dbcf.mp4 c3dccbbcf1bc1430b69e6f1e5f761202 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Craig Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> Northwest Public Television | Craig_Philip Philip Craig: My name is Philip Craig. P-H-I-L-I-P. C-R-A-I-G. Robert Bauman: Great. Thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this oral history interview on June 24th of 2015 on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Mr. Craig, why don’t we have you start, maybe, by just telling us a little bit about your background. Where you came from, how you came to Hanford, and that sort of thing. Craig: Well my how I came to Hanford started back in high school. I had a high school chemistry class. I liked what I saw. And I knew that the Hanford Project was down the road—I was living in Selah, Washington, and the Hanford Project was very interesting to me. And I even wrote a term paper on Hanford, because I really wanted to work here. So, I went on to Whitman College, graduated from high school in ’56—or ’52, I’m sorry. Graduated from college in ’56, and then went on to Washington State College, then, now Washington State University in Pullman, and did a year of graduate work in chemistry. And at the end of that, I came to Hanford for my very first job. And lo and behold, that was exactly 58 years ago today: June 24, 1957. And it was quite an experience, let me tell you. The first thing that struck me, of course I had to have credentials to get in the building. And in those days, we didn’t have badges like you have today that are on a cord around your neck. We had a little plastic folder with our ID in it, and you’d pull that out of your pocket and flash it open to the guard sitting at the entrance desk. And then you could go on into the building and find your office and take it from there. The most interesting thing, I think, about it all was it was a very formal setting. For years we wore suits, ties, long sleeved white shirts only—couldn’t have colored shirts—and the ladies wore dresses. Far more formal than today’s environment. Security, of course, was very paramount. I mean, we were in the years where the Soviets and the United States was competing. And so the Hanford site, being one of the two principal sites manufacturing plutonium in the United States, the other one being Savannah River, most of the stuff in terms of total production and that sort of thing was top secret. A lot of it was not—it was secret, but security was paramount. I remember in my little office cubby hole—it was a room, it wasn’t just a cubby hole, in abig room—we had a three-drawer file cabinet with a combination lock. And I could take a piece of paper out of that file, put it on my desk and work on it. But if I had to go to the bathroom, it went back in the combination file, locked it, go down the hall and come back and you had to unlock the combination and start all over again. And the very first thing they had me do is they handed me about a three-inch black three-ring binder with a red coversheet, marked secret. This was the PUREX operating manual. Now, PUREX stands for Plutonium Uranium Extraction, and it was the chemical process that is used to take irradiated uranium from the reactors, dissolve it in acid, treat it chemically, and come up with a plutonium nitrate solution. And I had to read this manual in about a week. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty daunting. </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Now where was your first office? Where on site? Craig: It was on in the 703 Building, which is about where the Federal Building is today. The last part of the 703 structure—it was a herringbone structure. We had offices coming off a main corridor, and there was about six tiers of those. And the very last one is still standing, and the city offices are in there. But later on, the Federal Building took over. Bauman: And what was your first job title? Craig: Physical—let’s see. Physical Science Administrator, I think it was. The other thing about the environment is that you handwrote all your reports, and then gave them to a secretary who typed them. There was no computers. So, it was kind of a laborious process to do that. I needed to check out a government car, which I did in the motor pool, and drive out to the Area to PUREX, and see what was going on most every day, drive back, write the daily report, mark it all secret, send it up a line to my boss. But that government car, let me tell you—it was not air conditioned. So those days were pretty warm. But we got it done. About two months later, after getting into the PUREX part of it, the fellow who was a companion office mate had been handling the plutonium shipments. And he went off to Washington, D.C. for another job. So I got the job of accepting plutonium products on behalf of the Atomic Energy Commission and the US government. So it was a very formal process. The products were in two forms. After the plutonium nitrate left PUREX, it was sent over to what is known as the Z Plant. And in that plant, by a series of chemical operations, it was converted to a metal button about this big and it fit in a tuna fish can. It weighed something close to two kilograms. So that was the first product. The second product were manufactured, machined weapon components. And I won’t talk about the exact details of their size and shape at this point. But nonetheless, Hanford was in the business of making weapon components. So my job was to accept this product and make the shipment, every couple of weeks or so, to Rocky Flats. Rocky Flats was about 15 miles northwest of Denver, and it was the receiving site for the plutonium as buttons. They would take that metal and cast it into weapon component shapes and machine those and so on. And of course the other part was the shapes themselves, they’d go up in pieces themselves, and they would go into an inspection process and eventually assemble parts of the warhead. Bauman: So when you say—you’re accepting them from the contractor, or--? Craig: I was accepting these materials from the contractor. I mean, General Electric Company was the contractor, and their job on a cost-plus-fixed-fee contract basis was to run all these processes. And there’s hundreds of people involved in this. But at the end of the line, I had to make that transition from Hanford to the next step. So it was a couple of months into my first job, my buddy left for Washington, and here I am, learning how to actually accept these components. Now, you need to understand that plutonium was very radioactive. It emitted some gamma radiation, but not huge amounts. I mean, you could actually handle it. But it also emitted alpha radiation. And so it had to be contained in some kind of container, like a can. And then you could hold it in your hand. Interesting. It was warm. It was—the radioactive decay—was producing heat. So this can felt like hanging onto a 60 Watt lightbulb. Now, the other part of the business of plutonium is that if you got too much of it together in one spot, you had a criticality event. And of course, the bomb itself was designed to make a lot of it go critical at the same time, and that created an atomic explosion. But the point is that if you’re handling plutonium, it had to maintain a certain degree of separation at all times. In the chemical processing plants, they used different sized columns of chemical solutions and whatnot, depending on what was going on. And that was to maintain this critical geometry, so that you didn’t have any kind of criticality event. And after the plutonium was made into these buttons we called them, and canned in the tuna fish cans, they were stored in a vault. And the vault had pillars of metal rods, and little rings on that rod that you could put a can in. But it maintained the separation. So on shipping day, what we would do is we operators of the plant would go into the vault and take these cans and very carefully put—I don’t remember exactly how many—something about five or six cans in a little red wagon. Just a little kid’s wagon. But there was spacers in there so that these things didn’t get too close. And they’d bring it down the hallway to the room that exited to the building where it then could be handled further. And this assembly area, in this room were birdcages. Now a birdcage is a metal frame that’s about this big, this big, and this big. And in the middle was a metal pot with a lid. And the idea was that you took—one at a time—one of those cans from the red wagon, and you put it in the pot. And then I think the birdcage held like three buttons. Then there was a lid, and a bunch of bolts in places where you could put a wire with a lead seal on the end. And my job was to squeeze the seal closed with an imprint and record, of course, what the identity of those cans were, and the weight, and that sort of thing on paperwork. And at the end of that, I would sign this receipt for this material, and give it to the contractor. The weapon components varied a little bit differently, depending on the size and shape of the weapon component. Eventually, those were a much bigger birdcage, and it contained a couple of pieces of weapon material. The business of shipping, then—I owned that plutonium for maybe 15 minutes [LAUGHTER] before the government. Then I would transfer it to armed couriers, AEC couriers. They were not only armed with side arms; they were armed with machine guns. This was serious stuff. And they would load these birdcages into a truck, and eventually ship that off to Rocky Flats. </div> </div> <div> Bauman: How often did these shipments--? Craig: Well, every couple of weeks or so. Bauman: And so, they were shipped by truck then, to Rocky Flats? Craig: That was a method used in later years. They didn’t really like shipping by truck that well. We actually had another system that involved—all I’m going to say is it involved rail. Because the exact details was highly classified. Bauman: And did the amount that was shipped vary significantly, or--? Craig: It varied, yes. Depends on how the production was going and what the requirements were on the other end. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sure. And so how long did you do this, then? How long were you--? </div> <div>Craig: From 1957 to 1972.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: Wow. Craig: So I shipped a lot of plutonium. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Craig: The other thing that was kind of interesting—I was explaining to you about the criticality. I hadn’t been on the job more than, I don’t know, a couple of months, shipping. I knew what to do, I knew the whole process, and I knew the sensitivity of it. One day one of these chemical operators who worked for the contractor had gone to the vault, and he came down the hall carrying about five tuna fish cans in his hand, and holding it with his arm like this. Well, that was absolutely high risk criticality event waiting to happen. And he walked in the room, and I said, ooooh. Just stop right where you are. And I instructed one of the other operators, take one of the cans from him and put it in the birdcage very carefully. And we got that shipment loaded and we were on our way. And then I went to the manager’s office—the plant manager’s office. Now, this fellow was like 60 years old. Kind of a salty southerner with—I mean, he was definitely in charge. And I’m 23 years old. Fresh out of college, wet behind the ears. And I gave him a real lecture about safety. And he didn’t like that. He called my boss. And my boss said Mr. Craig was right: you really almost had an accident today. That’s the end of that story. There was more to the whole weapons system. Since I was in the whole process, one of the small cogs—there was uranium coming from Oak Ridge. There was plutonium—some plutonium—and tritium coming from Savannah River. There was high explosives coming from Pantex. And then Hanford plutonium. This all had to be scheduled into what was known as the US master nuclear delivery schedule. It was the weapons document for all the weapons made in the country. It was a top secret document, and representatives from each of these sites got together, usually in Albuquerque, New Mexico, or at the Rocky Flats Plant. And we handwrote this schedule. There was no computers. There was a spreadsheet format, yes. But we didn’t have computers to do all that. Everything had to be balanced. This whole process had to bring all these materials together for processing at Rocky Flats. And so, about once a year we got together to do the master nukes schedule. I found I was pretty fortunate to be a part of that. I was pretty young. But it was a challenge. I had a lot of help, of course. But I was very impressed. One of the things that kind of scared me though was—and let me check on the date. October 22 to 24, 1962. That was the Cuban Missile Crisis. We were in Denver and Rocky Flats to work on these schedules. Now, that was ground zero for the Russians. If they were going to attack the United States, that probably would have been one of their targets. And it was kind of scary working there for those two days. I was very thankful that President Kennedy convinced Khrushchev to back off and no ill things happened. Bauman: Were you here when President Kennedy came to Hanford in ’63? Craig: Yes, yes. Bauman: Do you remember that? Craig: Oh, I remember that. We got to drive out and see him out at the reactor site. It was quite an experience. I think that was one of the only Presidents I’ve ever seen in person. And it wasn’t long after that, you know, a couple months or less, that he was assassinated in Texas. Bauman: Do you remember much about that day? Craig: It was hot! [LAUGHTER] It was still warm when he was here visiting. But it was a big event. There was thousands of people out there in the desert. But it was very thrilling experience to see the President come. </div> </div> <div> Bauman: Sure. So, you said you were working on the shipment from ’57 to ’72. So did that process change much over those years, other than shifting from— Craig: Well, yes. In about ’66, we quit making weapon components at Hanford. And the process moved to Rocky Flats entirely. Bauman: So that part changed. Craig: Yeah. That part changed. But the plutonium buttons didn’t. Bauman: And so then in ’72 then, how did your job change? What did you start doing at that point? Craig: Well, the other significant activity that I was involved with was in 1968. The site was in a state where we had 149 single-shell waste tanks and 28 double-shell waste tanks. Actually, that’s not quite right. There were four short of that on the double-shell. And these were boiling waste tanks. The others were not boiling waste. But it was all liquid, and we were concerned about the integrity of the tanks and the lifetime of the tanks. And so at that time, the Atlantic-Richfield-Hanford Company, ARCO, was the contractor. And two of their engineers, Sam Beard and Bob McCullough and I co-authored a document that was called “The Hanford Waste Management Briefing.” And the purpose of this was to explain the Hanford situation to our headquarters—our AEC headquarters staff, and Congressional staffers who were then going to be funding what is now known as the Tank Farm projects. And this document was a briefing document, and the key—one of the key charts that we were particularly proud of is to try to show people how complex the business of the Hanford waste system was. And this chart shows what happens to a ton of uranium that’s been irradiated and then processed at PUREX, and the wastes that come out of that whole process. And some of it’s boiling waste, because of high levels of radioactivity that are in that particular section of waste, and some was non-boiling. For example, you’re dealing with—for that ton of waste—680 gallons of non-boiling waste and 220 gallons of boiling waste. And in the non-boiling tank, you have 900 pounds of salts, chemical nitrate—nitrates and so on, and about 350 curies of radioactivity. But in the boiling side, there’s 230 pounds of salt, but 300,000 curies of activity. That’s why they’re boiling. And then there was a low-level stream that had like 55,000 gallons of waste that went to a crib—a crib is like a septic tank—tile field—and the swamp, which is just an open pond. There was another 560,000 gallons went there, but their radioactivity was less than a tenth of a curie. I mean, it was just negligible. On the solid side, there was about ten cubic feet of solid waste. There was about 10 million cubic feet—I’m sorry—of gases that came out. And here’s the number that it was radio—a surprise to everyone that it was published. It was secret then, but it’s been declassified since. Out of that ton of fuel came 530 grams of plutonium and four grams of neptunium. So the chemical process that started with a ton of material and ended up with just a very small amount. So it’s kind of like finding a needle in a haystack. </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Right. Craig: Because these wastes were boiling, we’d started building—had started building double-shell tanks. A double-shell tank is a steel tank within a steel tank within a concrete barrier. And this diagram in that briefing document showed what a double-shell tank was all about. These were million-gallon tanks. And in those days, it was about a dollar, maybe a dollar and a half a gallon to build those tanks. A million-million half dollars for one of these big tanks. Far, far, less than what they would cost today. Bauman: Yeah. Craig: At any rate, we made this presentation to the staffers and the ultimate activity was to remove as much as water as we could from the single-shell tanks so that we ended up with a salt cake that was not going anywhere. We isolated cesium-137 and strontium-90 by another chemical process, carried out in B Plant, to bring those short-lived emitters of radiation to a point where we could encapsulate those in steel cylinders. That was done and they’re stored. I think they’re still stored that way, but I’m not entirely sure. I kind of lost track of what’s happened since. We also built—were recommending that they build four more double-shelled tanks and that’s why the number finally grew to 28 double-shell tanks. And then, of course, it ultimately led to the pretreatment plant that’s in the process out here now, and the Waste Vitrification Plant. Bauman: You mentioned one of the reasons for doing the report was there were concerns about the integrity of the single-shell tanks. Were some of them leaking at that point, or just concerns that they might leak? Craig: I think at that point there were some that had displayed a little bit of leakage, yes. There’s other documents that showed some leakage, but, again it wasn’t into the concrete overpack, if you will. There was some, of course, got into the soil column, but it was not a series breach, and it wasn’t any radioactivity that got down into the groundwater. But we were afraid that it would. I mean, 1968, these tanks have been—the initial ones—had been built in 1944! ’45, ’46. So there was some that were approaching the end of life, and those tanks are still there today. And that’s why they’re so concerned about trying to remove some of the waste from these tanks and process it. Bauman: So, who initiated—was this ARCO or AEC that sort of initiated the study that you helped write? Craig: Oh, I think it was—collectively, the Hanford folks at engineering—folks on both sides of the contractor and the government were saying, we got to do something about this. Anyway, I think that’s about all I want to say about the creation of that document. I thought it would be interesting for you to look into if that ever showed up in the REACH literature as the kickoff document to get this thing going. Bauman: Right, right. Yeah. And did you continue to be involved after this report in some of the tank—waste management end of things? </div> </div> <div>Craig: Yes. Actually, I had some side activities that I got into first. From 1968 to 1972, I was the plutonium leasing officer for the government. There was one in Oak Ridge for uranium, and I was the plutonium one for the US. And basically, what I was—what we did is we created a lease document, so the 125 commercial organizations, 40 government agencies, and about 450 colleges and universities could have plutonium material. And we would, in effect, rent it to them for a use charge. Wasn’t very expensive, but it was a charge. More importantly, if they lost any of it, they had to pay for it. The largest users of that lease program were the two reactor fuel contractors. One of them was Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation in Apollo, Pennsylvania. And the other one was Kerr-McGee in Oklahoma. They made reactor fuels for the breeder program at Oak Ridge, and the Fast Flux Test Facility here. So that was a way for them to have this material. For the next nine years, I continued to be involved with the PUREX and Z Plant, and the management of both site materials—all of the different types of materials that we had: uranium, and plutonium, and so on. And those materials were about $500,000 to $750,000 in value. I’m sorry, $500 to $750 million in value. But it was a management process. Then later on, from 1981 to 1985, I was able to be involved in the last big development program that I had while I was working for the government. It was called the Spent Fuel Management Program. Now, during this time, the AEC had been in charge—prior to this time, the AEC had been in charge of both the Defense orientation of radioactive materials, and also the development of commercial power reactors. And there was a political hue and cry from about 19—let’s see—1974, I think it was—that the commercial reactor stuff should go to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, a new agency. And then, of course, a few years after that, about 1978 I think it was, the—oh, by the way, when the NRC was created, they changed the name of AEC. It became ERDA: Energy Research and Development Administration. And then about four years later, they changed it again to the Department of Energy. Well, now we had the government on our side—DoE had an obligation to kind of help the nuclear power industry deal with the long-term disposal of their spent fuel. I mean, as the fuel is burned up in their reactor and is no longer useful, eventually it was going to be encapsulated and sent off to Yucca Mountain. Well, until Yucca Mountain got authorized and built, then they needed an interim storage, and so we developed a concept called the at-reactor spent fuel storage. Several of us—myself and somebody from NRC, and somebody from Battelle, the contract who was working with me, and somebody from the Electric Power Research Institute, representing the power industry—I think that’s about it—we all went off to observe some dry storage in casks in Germany. We brought that technology back to the United States. We worked with the NRC to get it licensed. And now the power reactors of this country are using at-reactor storage in basically steel containers that contain the spent fuel and are just sitting on concrete pads, and the radioactive decay heat is dissipated into the surrounding environment. But all the radioactivity is very well contained in these casks. Hopefully, eventually Yucca Mountain will open. It was part of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act that I was involved with in those days. The whole purpose of this act was to create a long-term disposal. And NRC was involved in licensing that long-term disposal, and the nuclear power industry was to pay a fee for all this fuel that they were generating to help pay for this. Well, then all this got stopped because of the politics of Nevada and the—it’s going to be restarted, because there was a lawsuit that was settled recently that said that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act should be followed.</div> <div> Bauman: Right. So, you were involved with that in— Craig: I was involved in— Bauman: About ’85? </div> <div>Craig: --all that kind of stuff.</div> <div> Bauman: Right. Craig: Yes. And then I left the—at that point, this will be—okay, you can go back on. At that point in 1985, I left the government, went private, went to work for a packaging—an engineering and design company that designed high-level waste shipping containers for use on transportation. They started off—their first big project was the Three Mile Island cask, to move that waste. And then from that, I marketed to the government a high-level waste—any kind of high-level waste that could be put into a cask and removed. And then the TRUPACT-II cask for use in transferring transuranic waste, or primarily plutonium waste, from the government sites to the waste isolation pilot plant in Carlsbad, New Mexico. And from there, I got involved on a couple of other organizations. Eventually, in 1991, I went to work for Lockheed. In 1996, Lockheed, along with—well, Fluor Daniel was the primary contractor, but we were on the Fluor Daniel team, and Lockheed was to manage the Tank Farms. So we came full circle, and I helped Lockheed win that contract. Bauman: Right, you did come full circle. Craig: So then, Lockheed moved me from—I was then living in Federal Way, and Lockheed rewarded me by moving me back to Hanford and letting me work on the Hanford site in ’96. And I did that until December of 2000. And there I was involved in the new contracting method. Instead of cost-plus-fixed-fee contracting, it was cost-plus-incentive-fee. And what we would do was we would create a document for a scope of work, a performance agreement. And the contractor would say, here, DoE, this is what we’re going to do for you, and here’s how long it’s going to take. And DoE said, okay, if you do that, we’ll pay you this fee, and if you don’t get it done on time, we’re going to cut your fee. And if you don’t do it well, we’re going to cut your fee. And my job was to, at the end of the work performance, was to write up the actual work done in a document to present to DoE that says, okay, pay us the fee. We were very successful in getting our award fee. And then I gave it all up in December of 2000, after 43 years. Bauman: I wonder if I can go back—and this is really interesting stuff, fascinating career. I wanted to ask you just about the community, when you arrived here in 1957, what was Richland like at the time? Could you talk about that a little bit? And did you live in Richland, or--? Craig: Oh, yes. Yes. We were allowed to rent from the government a B house—half of a B house on Haupt. This was June 1957. And by then—a couple of months—the government started selling off the town to private citizens. And we were in the first block to be sold. The senior owners in the other end of the B house bought the B house. And at that time, we moved to the other side of town, into a ranch house, because that had been sold to its owner. This is kind of an interesting, because the ranch house that the owner—I mean the resident who was able to buy it bought for like $7,700. And then when we bought the ranch house, I think we paid like $9,500. And of course, those ranch houses today sell for over 100. The town was very—initially of course, it was very caste-oriented. I mean, if you were a contractor, management, you got to live on the river. If you were a lowly government GS-7, you got to live in a B house. And there was a certain level of, you know, if you weren’t in this class, you weren’t part of it, you know. And I think that’s changed dramatically over the years. It doesn’t make any difference who you work for and how much money you make and all that stuff. People have changed for the better. </div> <div> Bauman: Anything else about the community that stood out to you at the time? Craig: Well, the first thing that Richland did was they had to celebrate their founding as Richland. They set off a mock atomic bomb, and it was a bunch of fanfare out in the park, and made a poof of smoke that was to represent a mushroom cloud. Bauman: So, was this at Howard Amon Park? Craig: Yeah. It was. Bauman: Anything else that—memories that stand out, either about in community of Richland, or your work—any stories or memories that really stand out to you that you’d like to share? Craig: I feel confident that this waste document that shows particularly how much plutonium was made, that was a very revolutionary thing. I mean, the idea how much of material you got out of a ton of uranium was— Bauman: Right. Craig: Very classified. And to see that declassified and whatnot. It’s— Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Craig: Kind of mind-blowing. But there’s the document. And it’s legitimate to talk about. Bauman: Right. Craig: Not sure I want it on the local news tonight, but—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So I don’t know if you want to talk to us about the McCluskey incident and your involvement in that? Craig: Well, at the time, I was responsible for the Z Plant operations. And so, one morning, early, about 4:30 in the morning, I get a call from the plant that there had been an accident out of the plant, and I needed to get out there. And so I threw some clothes on and got a government car and went out to the site. What had happened was the plant had been operating on the recovery of americium-241 as part of the reclamation activities. And it was a chemical process. Inside this chemical process were criticalities tanks, small tanks like this, long, inside of a glovebox. Earlier in that summer, there had been a labor dispute, and the plant was on strike. And so the process had been shut down. Well, what was going on was americium was loaded onto the ion exchange medium inside this long column. When the dispute was settled and we had several days of reviews, conducting interviews with the contractor people, are you ready to restart? Have you checked this? Have you checked this? Have you checked this? And finally they were authorized to start. Well, what happened is that when they poured strong nitric acid on that ion exchange column to take, you lose off the americium. The americium had decayed the resin beads of the ion exchange medium ‘til it was kind of an organic gunk. And that acid reacted with it, and that violent chemical reaction blew open that column. It breached the glovebox, and it sprayed chemicals and americium all over Mr. McCluskey. And he was taken to an initial decontamination spot onsite, and then downtown. But my job, when I got there, was to fend off the media. What had happened—as soon as this became knowledge, and the media got hold of it, here they come in helicopters, landing inside the secure area of 200 West. The guards were going nuts. I mean, here’s these people that are not supposed to be there! Eventually, they didn’t do anything but try to manage it and bring them over towards the building, the end of the building, where behind the building walls was this processing cell where everything had taken place. And they were standing there, I was standing there outside talking to the media, trying to explain what happened. And I had an alpha copy machine. I was standing there, showing them that there was no contamination on my feet, there was no contamination around. They were panning everywhere with their cameras, and they found a sodium hydroxide feed tank that had just a little bit of salt cake around the valve on the outside. Non-radioactive, nothing—I mean it was a nothing tank. And they filmed that like it was the biggest thing since sliced bread. And I remember I went through all this and—to find out that it made the national news. But I didn’t get to see it, because I was out there. [LAUGHTER] But it became a non-event. It was not a disaster, there was containment, there was—all the safety things worked as well as they should. The public was never in any harm. But that was a— Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So, what happened, then, with the room, or whatever, where the incident took place? Craig: Oh, they sealed that room off right away. And then it remained sealed up until very recently, when they went in and took it apart. And processed it for disposal. Bauman: Did you know Mr. McCluskey at all? Craig: No. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Okay.</div> <div> <div> Craig: No. He was a chemical operator. I didn’t know who he was, hadn’t met him. But it was one of those things that— Bauman: Right. Craig: --Happened. Bauman: Well, thanks, again for sharing that story. Glad we remembered to do that. Craig: What was funny about it—I was trying to stand up. I used to be able to do this. I could stand there and hold my foot up and balance. And then I realized I couldn’t do that. Bauman: Oh, watch the microphone there on your— Craig: Oh, yeah. </div> </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:50:54 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 232 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 703 Building Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX Fast Flux Test Facility Z Plant B Plant Waste Vitrification Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1957-2015 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1957-2000 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Beard, Sam McCullough, Bob Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Craig Description An account of the resource An interview with Philip Craig conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-06: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/24/2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 703 Building B Plant Fast Flux Test Facility Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Richland (Wash.) Waste Vitrification Plant Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F507063cefe9d78ab8e1e3049e0745d2d.jpg f91d11548c42ed5fd7a25b4de7e68794 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd26a879697db06c3efd2030ffb267ebc.mp4 1a4107fd51be81672f81bbfa3424400c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Bown Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> <div> Northwest Public Television | Bown_Robert Robert Bauman: My name's Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Robert Bown on June 17 of 2013. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University in Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Bown about his experiences working at the Hanford site. Okay? Robert Bown: Yep. Bauman: Okay, great. So I'm just going to start by asking you if you could tell me how--why you first came to work atHanford? Bown: Well, I graduated at the University of Colorado, and was looking for a job. And Norm Thompson from GeneralElectric Company interviewed many people and we got together and I was hired. And I was--do you want to knowwhy I was—okay, I'll--well, I was impressed with the idea that here is a new energy system. And I wanted to be partof it. So I was pretty excited about working in this industry. Bauman: And what was your degree in? Bown: Chemical engineering. But I consider myself, now, a nuclear engineer by experience. Bauman: And so what was your initial position? What was the initial job, then, that you had? Bown: Well, started out as a technical graduate, and spent some time in training. And actually I had to have a securityclearance, so I was in a survey team laying out power lines, things like that, to begin with. Just to mark time. Whenthe clearance came, well then the work started. And I went to--you want an experience? Bauman: Absolutely. Bown: As a technical graduate, I sort of made stops at several spots so that they could look at me and I could look atthem. Went to separations and the reactors, and I chose the reactors and they concurred. And we lived happily forsome time. Bauman: And so what year was this? What year did you start? </div> </div> <div>Bown: I came here in 1948.And I left in 1971. In the meantime, I worked for General Electric, Douglas United Nuclear, the US--United States Research and--Energy Research and Development Administration, and then the Department ofEnergy.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: Great. So how long for General Electric then? Bown: Well, until they left the project, whenever that was. I don't remember it precisely. Bauman: And so when you started at the reactors with your first job, were you at the B Reactor? Bown: I was at B Reactor. Bauman: What was your job there? What sort of things were you doing? Bown: Well, first of all, of course, it was in training on shift. Eventually I became a shift supervisor. And then an areasupervisor—or operating supervisor, if you will. And then I went into—since that was shift work—went into a dayjob. And I was the in charge of scheduling and forecasting of the Hanford production and integration with theseparations people and Federal Department or--yeah, the government until I actually went to work for thegovernment. Bauman: So scheduling and forecasting, what--could you maybe explain that a little bit? What did that entail? Bown: Well, there were varying numbers of reactors. And I had worked at B and H, but in my day job I worked forall of them. I scheduled the outages, and took care of the accounting for the productionof all the reactors, made the reports, and scheduled their outages. Because that takes a lot of people whenthey're shut down, so you only want one at a time. So you have to be governed partially by the need fordischarging, refueling. So you get those variables, and you come up with a schedule that efficiently utilizes theforce available. Bauman: And then--so after you did that, what was your next position then? Your next job? Bown: Well, I went to Washington, D.C. and worked for the Department of Energy there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Bown: And that's sort of a big blank period. I don't remember what I did. I must have worked hard, though. Bauman: [LAUGHTER]When you first came to the area then, where did you live? What sort of housing did you live in? And-- Bown: I lived in a ranch house. I was the prime--first occupant. So when the ranch houses were new, I got one. I lived ina little trailer in North Richland for a while. I lived in that house and ended up with two children and a lot of goodmemories. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What was the area like when you first arrived here? Bown: What was the which like? Bauman: What was the area like? Richland as a place to live and-- Bown: The area was a mess. The big flood of 1978 had just occurred. Smell was not too good and roads were torn up. Afresh dyke had been built and it was not fully landscaped. And it was sort of a difficult time, but we survived. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: And one of the things I like to ask people about is--Hanford was a very—a lot of security, right? Sort ofa secret site, to a certain extent. Wonder if you could talk about that at all? What did that mean for you in terms ofyour work, in terms of security? Could you drive your car to work? Did you have to--</div> <div> <div> Bown: What was that last point? Bauman: Could you drive a car to work, or did you have to take the bus? Or how did that-- Bown: Well, either one. I preferred to take the bus and let somebody else do the driving, because the areas werequite distant. But you could drive, and I would drive when necessary. And since I didn't always get my workdone in the total allotted time, I'd have to get there on my own to catch up. Bauman: And were there any other—any security issues at all? Did you--I know you had to get a special clearance to work-- Bown: Had to have a what? Bauman: Get a special clearance to work on the site? Bown: Oh, yes. Q clearance. Well, in the security situation, you don't talk too much about work away from work. But Richland—you weren't very far from work, and everybody else was in the same boat, so we could talk shopsome, since they were cleared, too. Bauman: Right, yeah. So you worked--what various places on the site did you work then? You worked at the B Reactor, youmentioned. Bown: B Reactor and H Reactor. I think I spent some time at F Reactor also. And then in town for when I was schedulingand forecasting. Bauman: Okay. At the Federal Building in town? Bown: The what? Bauman: At the Federal Building? Or-- Bown: 703. Bauman: Okay. Do you remember any--were there any events that really stand out to you? Any strange happenings ormemorable events that took place during your years working at Hanford? Things that really stand out to you? Bown: Well, there was always something happening, and usually it was bad. And you spent a lot of time recovering fromincidents, or radiation problems, or fuel element failures--for which becoming quite common when power levelswere raised up to very high levels and quality of the fuel wasn't. Incidentally, I spent a year or two in fuelproduction, too--fuel fabrication in the 300 Area. I think between the time that I was a shift supervisor and the timeI became an operating supervisor, I spent a year or two building—making fuel elements as aforeman for the crew of people working with the bare uranium. Bauman: When you worked at B Reactor and you said H Reactor also, how large of number of employees generallywere there? Bown: Well, we had--the crew was generally an operating supervisor, called an area supervisor, a shift supervisor, achief operator, four pile operators, and a couple of the next level down--whatever that was. Utility operators, Iguess they were called. And then we had side groups that didn't report to me, but were helpful. Health monitoring--or HI--health, whatever it is, and the maintenance people, we would work with. So just a general plantoperation. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Yeah. Okay. One quick thing I want to ask about was President Kennedy came to the Hanford site in 1963 todedicate the N Reactor-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --and I wanted to know--ask if you were there? Were you at the event? Any memories you have aboutthat? Bown: About when the President was there? Bauman: Yeah. Bown: Well, I wasn't personally involved with--I was just doing my job. I was impressed, of course, with the President,and the notoriety or fame that we enjoyed. Bauman: Did you and your family go out to watch him do the dedication at all? Bown: I think we did, yes. And my daughter says, okay. She was there. Bauman: Yeah. Must have been a pretty interesting—I mean it sounds--as I talk to other people they said that itwas sort of one of the first times they really opened up the site to let family members come on to the site, to seethe President. Bown: Well, it was just a big holiday. And I think they were impressed with the operation. And I hope they are againtoday. It's still there, but not operating. Bauman: Yeah. So you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, you said. Bown: Yes. Bauman: Of course much of that, the height of the Cold War. Did you have a sense ofsort of the important work youwere doing? I mean what did you--what of your, sort of, thinking about—the Cold War would have been-- Bown: As I mentioned earlier, I was pleased to be associated with a new energy at nearly the ground level. It had beengoing for a while before I got there. And I enjoyed working there. I took a part in community functions, too. Electedto City Council and my wife was elected to be one of the freeholders--20 freeholders--that wrote the--whatever it'scalled. Wrote the charter-- Bauman: The charter-- Bown: Charter, yes. Bauman: For—the City of Richland Charter? Bown: Yes. So we were involved, both of us--myself and my wife--in the founding of the city itself. It was a goingoperation before that, but under government control. Bauman: Can you talk about that a little more? When were you elected to the City Council? And what made you decide torun for a seat on the City Council? Bown: Well, I can't remember the exact date, but I was sort of encouraged to participate by an old friend, Fred Clagett,who has better credentials as an old timer. And he kind of encouraged me to work there—or to work in thecommunity. And I served on the Planning Commission, things like that. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So you were very involved in-- Bown: I was quite active. Bauman: --city government-- Bown: City government, yes. Bauman: --in an early period. And you said your wife was involved in the-- Bown: Yes, freeholder operation. Bauman: Yeah. Why did--do you know why she chose to get involved in that? Why you thought it was important? I know you saidRichland initially was a federal city under federal government control. Why you thought it was important tomove to becoming a sort of independent city? Bown: Well, you like to be independent of the government control. But since they're picking up the tab, you have to listento them and accept their advice, usually. And still remain your own person. We tried not to be a servant ofthe Atomic Energy Commission, whom I generally ended up working for. But we cooperated quite nicely. We workedtogether. I think it was a fruitful situation where we-- Bauman: So what happened then when the transfer happened from federal government control to becoming anindependent city? In terms of the homes, for instance? Were people able to purchase their own homes? How didthat-- Bown: Well, they sold the homes to us at a bargain rate. It was 75% of assessed valuation, I think. So we got a gooddeal. And we were proud to be property owners. Real citizens of a free city--atomic city--famous. Bauman: Were there any--in those early years in Richland, any community events, special celebrations, or communityevents that were important to the city early on? Bown: Well, nothing really stands out. We had the general celebrations. And it was just normal--a normal city. And wehad a good time living it. Bauman: You know, what would you like future generations—maybe somebody will watch this video 20 yearsfrom now, or 50 years from now. What would you like people in the future, who might see your interview, orwatch part of it, or listen to it--what would you like them to know about working at Hanford? Bown: About what? Bauman: About working at Hanford? And what that was like. Bown: Oh, working at Hanford. Bauman: And what it was like to work at Hanford? And/or living in Richland during that-- Bown: Yeah. Well, since it was my first job, I didn't have an awful lot of experience. Well, I'd worked construction jobs,and things like that, but it was--I was proud to work for General Electric. I didn't have an emblem tattooed on me or anything, but I was a faithful cheerleader for them. And I still like General Electric. I still like the federalgovernment. And they were good to me, and I think I gave them a good--my best. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: And how long--you mentioned that you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, how long did you live in Richland?Did you move at that point? Or-- Bown: I left Richland in 1971 for a job in Washington, D.C. with the Atomic Energy Commission. Bauman: And how long were you there? Bown: Until 1986. Through several employers--General Electric, and Douglas United Nuclear, Energy Research andDevelopment. It seems like there's one--Was there another one in there? Two? Then the—yeah, Energy Research andDevelopment. Well, ended up with the Department of Energy, anyway. Bauman: And when you were in D.C., what sort of work were you doing in D.C.? What was your job there? Bown: Bureaucrat. [LAUGHTER] Well, it's hard to tell you my actual responsibilities, but--because they kept varying. But I don't know. I kept busy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then I'm going to go back now to when you first came to Hanford, you said something about sort of being amess because of the flood that year. And I know some people who came here in the '40s talked about thetermination winds, you know-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --when the dust would blow and a lot of people would leave. Bown: The winds blew. They still blew. And the dust blew. But I didn't terminate. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Bown: I was from a dry Midwestern situation, so the desert wasn't too serious a problem. Bauman: It wasn't too unusual for you. Bown: No. During the Depression and drought, the wind blew and the tumbleweeds collected in the fences, and the dustdrifted like snow and you could walk over the fences. So I'd had experience. It wasn't too different from theHanford-- Bauman: Right. Bown: --situation. It wasn't—it did rain a little more, but not much. Bauman: In your various positions working at Hanford, I was going to ask you a question about unions. Were there unions on the campus? Bown: Well, there were not, to begin with. And they were organized. And I was not involved in the bargaining unit, but Ihad to learn to work with a union as well as the people. No problem. Bauman: Did you have a favorite part—what was your favorite part of working at the Hanford site? Do you have somethingthat you really enjoyed doing during your time here that--of the various things you had to work on? Bown: Well, the scheduling and forecasting was pretty interesting. I started out just scheduling. And then they cut thenumber of reactors and I also took over the forecasting operations, and some inter-site work--the shipping off of aspecial products that you made at the reactors. I handled those. And it was a varied job, and quite interesting. Ienjoyed it. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Clearly, yeah. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about? Anything about yourexperiences either working at Hanford or living in Richland? Any special memories or things you'd like to sharethat you haven't had a chance to talk about? Bown: Well, I got myself a ski-boat and we whizzed up and down the river quite a bit. And we spent time with our family inthe Portland area, so we weren't too far from friends--from old friends and family. Climbed a few mountains.Travelled a lot--Europe, Alaska. We had a pretty full life there. Bauman: It sounds like a good place for recreational activities. Bown: Yes, and for growing a family it was real good. Bauman: And you said you had two children? Bown: Two children, daughters, are both here. Bauman: And they both grew up in Richland? Went to high school and so forth in Richland? Bown: Let's see. Where did you go to high school? Daughter: We moved when I was in 9th grade. Bown: Oh, okay. We moved east. So they ended up in Maryland for high school--most of high school. Robin went to the University ofMontana, and Karen, the younger one, went to Evergreen State College. Bauman: Well, thank you very much. Again, is there anything else that you want to talk about? Or memories you have fromworking that I haven't asked you about? Bown: Well, you've asked all the right questions. I hope I gave the right answers. Bauman: Well, thanks again, very much. I really-- Bown: Sure. Bauman: --appreciate you coming in and sharing your stories and memories. Bown: Thank you for the opportunity. Bauman: Thank you. </div> </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:32 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 703 Building B Reactor H Reactor N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1941-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1941-1971 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Clagett, Fred Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Bown Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Bown conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-08: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/17/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area 703 Building B Reactor H Reactor Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6def293024de6ae911e0e7f7654db62f.jpg 9ec40ce58e39904d570570fa414e867c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56b6ceb732b954b73e93a462ffedb9c0.mp4 e1ae7cc2fa0eb43e1b50797353e49a45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Colley Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Northwest Public Television | Colley_Robert </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Robert Bauman: Okay, great. Let's start by just having you say your name and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Robert Colley: Okay. Robert Gibson Colley. It's—spell-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: The last name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: C-O-L-L-E-Y. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. Great. Thank you. And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Bauman? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Bauman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, okay, Bob Bauman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And today's date is November 20th, 2013, and we're recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start maybe by having you tell us when you came to Hanford, what brought you here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. I was at Spokane Air Base, and the general came in and he said we're going to have to reduce the Korean Air Force pilots, but we'd like to keep you in Reserve, Ready Reserve, and you'll fly every other weekend for the next 20 years. And we'll guarantee you a job somewhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: And so that was on Sunday, and on Monday morning I came to work here in 1954. And it was about a month before I came to work. And I came to work as—nuclear physics—radiation monitor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. And so how long had you been in the service prior to 1954? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I came off active duty on Sunday, and came to work here Monday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: When did you start in the service? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, in—when did I start? In 1942. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay, yeah, oh, in '42, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah, in 1942. And I had three years of cadet ROTC at Walla Walla. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Oh, okay. All right. And so then you came to Hanford in 1954 in nuclear health physics, you said? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Nuclear health physics? Is that where you worked? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I worked for General Electric. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: For General Electric. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Uh-huh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And so could you—what sort of work did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Nuclear health physics. And after I came here, I went and got my tech degree from inside while I worked there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And what was the area like when you came here in 1954? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well it was riding buses to school, and they gave us homes. And we brought our families here. And went to work by bus. Buses picked us up right in front of our house here in Hanford and took us to work and brought us back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And where was your house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: 1940 Benham. 1940, 41 there. It was a duplex. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: A duplex. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: An eight-house duplex. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: And my children started school here that year. A boy and a girl. And they started at Lewis and Clark School just up the street. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And so working in nuclear health physics, what sorts of tasks did you do? What sort of things did you do at your job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Anyplace that anybody worked, we had to be there. And we had to know that the area was clear, the work area was clear, what dose rate they were getting, and set a dose rate for them to work there for a certain length of time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So you were all over the site, then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. I was—in those days, everybody worked all over the site, wherever you were needed. But I actually went into U Plant my first day out on the project, and that was the beginning of U Plant, T Plant, REDOX. And then I went to Dash 5, and then I went to the PUREX start-up again. I was there for two years. Then went back to Dash 5. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. So essentially you were setting rates for workers? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yes. Uh-huh. We went in and we checked the air. And checked the clothing requirement that these people would wear, and what their mask levels would be. How much--we'd find out exactly how much they were going to take and how much they were allowed to take for any one day. And generally in those days, unless there was something very special where you took a double, why, you normally took 15. And that was it. If it was a very special job where it was dangerous to pull somebody out in the middle of a job because of the radiation level. Sometimes they would take a double. Then they'd go into overtime. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So did you have to wear any special clothing or carry special-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everything was special. From the time we walked in and changed clothes, we never our clothing again until we took our shower and went home. We wore special underclothes, special--if we lost our clothes due to some spill or something, we could strip down to our underclothes and get out and still be clear. If we went past that, why, then we had a body contamination. And we would normally clean up whoever got contaminated. And depending whether they were working with uranium, plutonium, americium or whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Did it happen very often where--were there very many times when a worker was contaminated and you had to clean them up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everyday somewhere. And they had to be cleaned up and nasal smears given before they were left to go home. We had to have them perfectly clean, or we had to keep them and give them more tests. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So how would you go about cleaning someone up who had been contaminated? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well, if it was skin contamination, why, we could take off a layer of skin. We'd put on--I forget what the name of it was, but we’d put it on and it would take a layer of it off. Until it's a layer perfectly clean. And if they were clean, then they could go home. If they weren't, why, we had to keep them over. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And if they had to--if you had to keep them over, what happened? You would run tests, did you say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No, we'd just have to keep cleaning on them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I mean, working with this type of thing, there's some spill, something or other, something contaminated or something broke loose or something didn't go right. And everything had to be cleaned right down to no contamination detectable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And so when someone was contaminated and you were involved in cleaning them up, was it just you? Or was there more than one person? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, no, no. Depending on whether he was a junior or a senior, and after he got to be senior, why you were always the one to clean somebody up. And the juniors would watch. And so they would be prepared sometime, too, in the future. You went through a six-month training period and preparation so that you become a monitor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And how long did you work then in nuclear health physics? How long were you at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: 34 years. Approximately 34 years—just like a little bit--. I went there in--I didn't work there until in January of '55. And I retired in August of '86. I think I figured out about 34, almost 34 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And that whole time you were in health physics? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yep. The only time I was gone was when I was on active duty with the Air Force, once a year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Never lost any time. We had a lot of different things happen, but every 15 months, when we had accidents of some sort, spills or contamination levels above level, something like that was always there. Even with fires and explosions and stuff like that. And we--I guess the worst right off the bat was when we had—I can’t think—a place where they mixed in Dash 5. But they had a spill, and had a double. And so they got everybody out in about 10 or 15 minutes. I mean, just real quick. Just walked away. Just left things like they were. And then three of us went back in. We knew each floor exactly. We knew where every crevice was, or where every box or anything was where something might be that might be of value. Most of them might walk away from it and not know it's there. So we had to go back and go through--because we knew all these buildings. We did work down there day after day for years. And we knew where everything was, even if it was just even a change of clothes. We checked everything. And we finally--we were allowed an hour. We were in 1,000 R dose rate. And we were allowed an hour. And we took 100 R. And we were only supposed to take a little bit each day. But it was classified at that time. And no one ever knew how much--except we knew, and the health physics people knew. And we took, in less than an hour, we took 100 R—body. And that's many years of working out there. You normally took three R a year—a whole year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: And we took 100 R in less than an hour. But no one was left in the building, and we were very fortunate. Everything that would run was still running. And then they would come in to help shut it down and get things cleaned up again. But they brought us down in patrol cars from the Badge House, and we just had so much time once we got out of the patrol car. And we would be back there at that place. And if we weren't there, they would come to look for us. But there was three of us, and the other two boys are all gone. I was the oldest out of the bunch, but they died young. We never knew for sure whether we would--I never felt anything from 100 R. I didn't feel headache-y or sick or anything. And they allowed me to come back to work the next day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: But that was all classified at that time. And nobody--they got it okayed from someplace. But I never had any ill effects from it. I took my maximums every year in all those years, and never had any ill effects that I knew of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Do you know roughly what time period this incident was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Roughly what year that would have been that that happened, that incident? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: You know, I used to remember exactly right down to the hour. [COUGH] But that seemed like it was '56? '55, '56? Gosh, they've got all the records there, but I--it was fairly soon--no, it wasn’t ‘58. It had to be '60. Because I'd been here a long time then. Got everything back up and going again. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And you said you didn't experience any ill-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: You said you did not experience any ill effects. Did the other two men who were there with you, did they experience any ill effects from that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I don't hear very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: I'm sorry. You said you didn't feel sick after that at all. Did the other two men who were in with you, did they get sick at all from that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No, not to my knowledge. Never had any ill effects. I've always had pretty good luck. I went through the Air Force Cadets, Army Air Force Cadets, back at the [INAUDIBLE], and pretty good shape and stayed in good shape. And we would fly 50, 60 hours at a time towards the end there. And no ill effects from that, either. Except you get tired and you switch off with crews, you know. And we'd go from here to California or over to China or someplace. Always someplace on the earth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Yeah. Were there any other sort of major incidents that you remember from the time-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well we had A 80--about 10 years later, and I was right in the middle, turning people out. The people that were injured during the blast were taken to Kadlec in special rooms. And they were kept there for all--this was when--I'm thinking to think of his name. I can see him, but I can't--he was the one that got hurt the worst. And he was down here, down at Kadlec, for years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Oh, was that McCluskey? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: McCartney, yeah, McCartney. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. He was just quite a guy. And he was an operator out there. And got him out, and we got him downtown and took the—[LAUGHTER] I can't think of all these names. The thing that we took him downtown in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Ambulance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Ambulance. And took it back, checked out it. It was wildly contaminated. And went and buried it. [LAUGHTER] That was what happened to it! But I worked 91 doubles to get that straightened out. We didn't have enough people to keep the place going, and so we'd ask for overtime. And I put in the most doubles that anybody has ever heard of. 91 doubles, straight days. 91 doubles. 16 hours a day. But I'd been used to that in the military, or more. But not that many days at a time. And we finally got back to normal hours. And but this wasn’t ever—but they stopped going more than two and a half days at a time overtime after they got it straight, before they could get back to work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So during those 91 doubles, was it still working on cleaning up after the incident-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah, mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: With-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. And they got the point for—they didn't ask for it, they just accepted I'll be there and I was. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: You mentioned that the ambulance, you'd buried the ambulance. Do you knew where it was buried? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Out there in Two West. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: In Two West. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. But I believe those were about ten years apart. The Dash 5 and the--or the--gosh, I can't remember that name, but the poor fellow that blew up there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: McCluskey. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: No? Oh, the first one. I don't know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: The first one. I can’t—it gets away from you when you get up in your 90s. If you don't use them, why, you forget them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Any other incidents that stand out in your-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well we had lots of little ones, but they, we could take care of them. They were generally out there. Once in a while, we'd bring somebody down for a cleanup down to the hospital here. But somebody was with him at all times. And never a chance of spreading anything. Of course then homes were surveyed here every so often by the monitoring people, just to check. Just to spot check here and there. Rounds for people that lived here. And once in a while, you'd get something, maybe a bathroom or something room, somebody had come from the project home, well then that started a whole different series of things. Your buses had to be re-checked. Everything had to be re-checked. Never left anything for chance, because it doesn't go away. But once in a while, you'd find a little bit in home. But nothing really drastic, and nobody was ever fired for bringing home the—just something that was overlooked at the time. They bypassed a monitor some way or another. They got--or they touched something and then went into a clean area, and they thought they were still clean and they went home with it. But no, there was always right orders. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So you said you worked there for almost 34 years. Did the equipment change over time, the equipment that you used? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Our detection equipment didn't change. We had the Geiger counters and we had alpha—I'm trying to think of the sampling equipment that we used and the detection equipment, and the air sample stuff, and that. And no, in that length of time, nothing had changed yet. But they changed fairly soon after that, I understand. And got a little more sensitive equipment. And people had more schooling after--things that were brought—when you can find instruments going that can detect this much easier. That's what they brought in later. Real handy. Real nice. But other than that, why, Geiger counters and Junos, and that was the things that they had when they started, and that's the things that we had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And how about when you had to clean someone up, did that sort of process stay pretty much the same? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. First you use the normal equipment. If anything higher level, a Juno or alpha, so we'd detect it. And then if it was larger than that, why, they were left out there and cleaned up out there. It wasn't until we got down to the very minor things that we couldn't--it was on skin or in skin, on clothing. But we had just—in real clean rooms. So if there was any on them, we could get it real quick. And I don't recall anyone knowingly took any in home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everybody was pretty respectful of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So did you have to wear a certain kind of gloves? Do you have to wear a mask or something? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yeah. Depending on whether it was fresh air or whether it was a salt mask, depending on what kind of work we were on, they were sealed when we were working in the canyons, in the cells, were sealed down tight. And then we had somebody check us as we came out. And so we never carried anything out. We took some time to--sometimes it took longer to get out than it did to do the job. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So obviously there are a lot of precautions that were taken, a lot of safety measures. Did you feel then—obviously you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I don't remember anybody knowingly took any shortcuts-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: --In order to get a job done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Everything was always in a hurry. Everything was on a schedule. Well, sometimes when you're working with contamination and radiation, it just don't work on schedule. And we'd have to hold. They had people on overtime one way or another, but we couldn't let them go. We'd have to call the job off, till they cleaned it up. And when they got them cleaned back where they could handle it, then turn 'em loose. But we were always with them. I mean, by turn 'em loose, you mean they could go to work, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Whether it was mechanical or something else, or flow of contaminated material. They had a lot of high-level stuff there. Some of that stuff could--if you get it on you, if you didn't get it off real fast, you could get hurt. There were several times that thought the people were going to get hurt, but it turned out that they came out okay. But they did have it on them, but if they hadn’t have gotten it off of them, why, they would've been in trouble. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: But it seemed like—if you worked there, stay clean. Stay clean. And never took any shortcuts. A shortcut could cost you your life. I don't remember anybody ever dying from it or anything like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Given the sort of materials that were there and the job you had, did you feel that Hanford was a safe place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: How's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Did you feel that Hanford was a safe place to work? Was there-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, sure was. And everybody was built around doing the job, getting the job done. But I don't recall any job that was carried on unsafely. It was caught--right in the middle of some pretty--something semi-nuclear, or whatever, we stopped and took care of it there, and then started back again. But that was the way of life. That was the way you did it. And no one ever considered taking shortcuts. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Right. What was the most challenging part of your work at Hanford, and maybe what was the most rewarding part? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Safety. Keeping people safe and taking care of their internal, external safety. And the contamination, always watching for contamination internally or externally. When you went home at night, you felt okay. But some people took a tremendous amount of radiation. But it was radiation, it wasn't contamination. So you didn't worry about going home or exposing your family to anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So as you look back over the over 30 years that you worked at Hanford, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Good. Yeah. Everything was taken care of. They got you to work. They made it so that you didn't worry about coming to work. And that was good, because a lot of people were, you know, had some pretty high--there were some lethal dose rates out there if you had to get around them, and you took very, very small amounts of it. And so you didn't really worry about--I mean the only time was when we had some criticality and some of us would volunteer. But we would volunteer because we were older. We weren't having families. We--well, I don't know. We would take the necessary precautions. We'd back off if something didn't seem right and look at it again from another angle. So if someone took an overdose, it'd be because of too many days of overtime. And they finally got that down to where if you had taken so much dose rate for a number of hours, why, you couldn't take anymore. And it was always within the safe limits. I don't remember anybody getting an overdose of radiation. Except for us that had to in order to find out if our buildings were clear. And there was nobody left in them. To search the buildings, we had to take an over amount. And it was supposed—like in our big building, Dash 5, there were only three of us volunteered. But there's three floors, and we knew before we went in about how much time it would take to go to every room on every floor. So that we wouldn't leave--if anybody fainted, had a heart attack or something like that in getting out would still be there, because nobody's back in that building for two or three days. You were just clicking and clacking away. [LAUGHTER] You just--kind of different sounds, you know, make you feel a little anxious because all the alarms were going, and which alarms are the ones that you're watching for that might be external. And dose rates or contamination or type of things like that. Most of the contamination bells were all around [INAUDIBLE] were going off. And we had to find where that spread was, how bad was it, and what it was going to take to clean it up. And it took quite a while. But they'd give people their maximums and send them home. That's where you got all cleaned up and back to work again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So did you have to have--you talked about safety. Did you have like regular safety training, did they have that at Hanford? Did you have to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Yes. Yeah. Everything was safety. And you had special meetings. If you were going to do a special job, say down in one of the cells or something like that, you had training on it, a dry run training in another cell that was clean. So you knew exactly what you were going to handle, how long you were going to handle it, how many people it was going to take to handle that, and which sets of dose rates. They would only take maybe an overtime of—of one overtime--not overtime, but taking a double in exposure. And then if it took 10 people to do that, you just lined up 10 people and dressed them and got them ready, and you got the others out. And so nobody took any extra over what they were supposed to take. And then their badges were red. And they knew right then that's where they were going to--whether they were okay or not, if they were concerned about it. And once in a while, you'd open up something that, in trying to get that job done, you'd open up something else. And then, of course, we were right there, and our instruments were—and we're dressed, too, so our instruments would tell us right there we were taking it from that, right here. And then we could do—tell them they could work two inches, five inches, a foot, two foot, or arm’s length, and then what the dose rate would be. So tried to keep everybody as healthy, as good we could. And it went off pretty good. Everybody felt comfortable with it, anyway. Maybe sometimes--everybody's human. Sometimes they make little boo-boos. But if you caught them, you never let them back in again. You know, some people will just for some reason or another, they just want to get into trouble. And when you find out that person, you get him out then. You never let him go back in. He's a hazard. So he'd be put on a cold job somewhere here on the project, or he's fired. But never played around with him. I don't remember people by name as to any particular one, but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: I want to go back. You mentioned earlier that when you first came here and moved into a house, you took a bus to work and it would pick you up in front of your house. How long did you do that? How long did you take the bus to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: You know, you think you—that was a big thing for people to drive. And some people didn't even have cars. They'd pick you up. And you got a bus stop real close to your house. They go all through Richland here. And they'd pick you up, they'd bring you back and drop you off back at your house. But it was--gosh, I never did drive to work. I always took a bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Took the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: But during that--towards the end of that, some people were driving. And depending on where they worked and what job they did and if they had to move around with it. And they could drive to the Project parking lot. And then they had to go over to--well, just like the rest of us worked. No, it was so gradual, that never—and those dates were all so familiar at the time, boy! We were going to be able to drive, and they were going to go take the buses clear off. And that would have been a big day. And I'm trying to think. Just, I can't remember. But they sold the houses in '58. So I know it was--we'll say it was before then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And so did you buy a house then after '58? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Uh-huh. Yeah. I was allowed one house, an A house. And I'd already been in it for 10, 15 years. I lived in that house 40 years. Or either had it for 40 years. I bought it, and then I kept it a long time. We paid $7,200 for an A house. All told, before I sold it, I built a new house out in Keene Village. And we got $109,000 for it. But needed fixing up a little bit here and there, you know. But really a good house. Very easy to heat and easy to--they were comfortable, nice rooms. And they're all--most all of them are still standing! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: And do you remember anything else about the community of Richland at the time in the 1950s? Were there any special community events or things like that that you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Well my spare time was with military. So I didn't have much spare time. Towards the end, I flew to China for 12 years. Every other week, never missed a week. And worked here full-time. But I was flying the old C-141s. That was quite a drop from B-52s and 36s. [LAUGHTER] But it was a mix, good mix. But everything, regardless of where you went, if you--like in Japan, had family there. I had to have somebody go with me because of my job here and my Air Force job. Classification all the time. Never talked about it. They knew that you worked here, and that was good enough. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, it was a lot of classification. Some jobs were, gee, you were afraid to talk to anybody. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: So could you tell your family what you did at Hanford at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: They didn't really know what sort of job you had? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: As far as my family was concerned, my children were going through grade school here. And my wife didn't work. She just took care of us all. What they read in the papers or from things like that. And they know better than to ask. Because it was classified. But they'd got used to that in the Air Force. SAC was, boy, it was as much or more so than Hanford. But you got so you just lived with that. Gosh you never--but also you remembered a lot of those things for a long time even after you could've maybe talked about them. But this time nobody was particularly interested. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Was that difficult at all to be working and then come home and not be able to talk to anyone about your job at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: No. When you got off the--out of your building, why, we just didn't do it. Once in a while, they'd say, where do you work? And they'd say oh, you know, or something. Try to not answer. But if you did, why, you'd tell them what building you worked in, yeah. And every building had a classification about it. They wanted you to--if you worked in that building, you didn’t have any business talking about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Is there anything from your experiences working at Hanford that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to talk about or think you should talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: Oh, yeah. There’s things, things, oh gosh--at the time, there was a lot of things that I would like to have talked about. But now I can't remember anything right off-hand. Anything you'd like to talk about, it was classified. And you'd go to specialty school, special this, special that. And guards. But I enjoyed working there. I worked lots of overtime because I enjoyed the job. My outside interests was the military, and every spare minute that I had, why, I was with that either in Walla Walla--I was base commander at Walla Walla in the Reserve side, recovery units. So I was pretty busy all the time. I was looking ahead to either here or there. And then when I retired from the military, then I had more time to work here doing things, and with my family. Go places and do things. But it all worked out good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Well I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences with us. I really appreciate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: I'm sorry I can't remember a lot of things. Gosh, it's surprising me. When you stop using it and you weren't supposed to talk about it, then you just disappear it. I mean, unless someone mentions something, and then brings it up to you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Well you did a great job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Colley: A lot of years! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX33073153"> Bauman: Some really interesting stories, so, appreciate it. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:38 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview U Plant T Plant Dash 5 Building Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1986 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 251 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Colley Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Colley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/20/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Dash 5 Building Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) T Plant U Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb9924b95c500c11fbe13d70499530994.jpg c6a5a368983807b39e2eb55f5be4117b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F89bbc7b903e7acf0ca7b8fbdd52459aa.mp4 afa17d712e9449df0e87752979c8f63a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Holm, Paula Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Holm_Paula Robert Bauman: Good to go? Camera man: I'm recording. Sound man: Yup, I’m recording too. Bauman: Okay. Can you hear me all right? Paula Holm: Yes. Bauman: Okay, great. So we could start maybe by having you say your name and then spell your last name for us. Holm: Okay. You want me to start right now? Bauman: Yeah, that's fine. Holm: Paula Mary Holm. My maiden name was Bruggemann. Do I need to spell that? Bauman: Yeah. That would be great. Holm: B-R-U-G-G-E-M-A-N-N. Bauman: And my name's Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on August 6th of 2014, and we're interviewing Paula Bruggemann Holm in Yakima, Washington. Holm: Mm-hm. Bauman: So let's start, if we could, if you could talk about your family a little bit, especially about your parents. And if you know when they came to the White Bluffs area and what brought them there? Holm: My dad was born in Germany, and he wanted to come to the States to be a farmhand, have a farm, so he chose to venture to New York and then come across the states, and he settled in the White Bluffs area and purchased the land, from--it was a German fellow by the name of Von Herbert. And that started the whole process. He was able to have enough funds to purchase the ranch. So that's what got it started. Bauman: Now, was he married already to your mother, or was he single when he came over? Holm: He was single, and my mother was working at the ranch with her sister and my grandma, my mother's mother. So they could all handle, between all of the family, they could handle the ranch hands, which I can't recall how many they had. But that long building that they called--The long building existing there now that's kind of disintegrated down to a few existing blocks was actually called the cook house. Didn't you have a different name for it? Bauman: Warehouse is the name of the building. Holm: Warehouse, no, that was the cook house, and my grandma was the chief cook and along with my mom and my mom's sister. It was just kind of a unique family situation, and it worked out real good. I was somewhere in the mix, but I wasn't really involved in the whole situation because I was two and a half, three years old--three years old when we had to leave. So it's real hard to go back that far. Bauman: Sure, yeah. Holm: I don't think you could do it yourself. Bauman: Right, so talk about your parents a little. What were your parents' names? Holm: My dad's name was Paul Ludwig. My brother's name is Ludwig. My mom's name was Mary. So I am Paula Mary Bruggemann--Bruggemann-Holm. Bauman: And so how did your parents meet then? Do you know? Holm: Well, just they had met there on the ranch because my dad needed a certain amount of help, and I guess that's how they had met. I don't really know all the details there, but my mother hadn't married yet, and my aunt was married, and my grandma was married, of course. So my mom and dad were married in, oh, let’s see, 1936 or so, and then my brother was born in '38, and I was born in 1940. Bauman: And what was your mom's maiden name? Holm: Mary Etta Hoard-- H-O-A-R-D. Bauman: And do you know where she was from originally? Holm: She was from, well, let's see now, oh, wow, the Portland area. Bauman: Okay. Holm: Anyway that area there somewhere, and that's all I can tell you about that situation. Bauman: Now I know you were very young when you left there. What do you know about, and I know most of this would be from your parents telling you or maybe your brother telling you, but what sort of crops were grown on your land there? Holm: Well, mostly soft fruit, the apricots and peaches and, and then my dad had sheep. I don't know if he had goats or not, but he had sheep, and quite a large amount of sheep because he had sheepherders help and dogs and everything that goes along with it. And one of the fellows that helped him sheep herd was the father of one of the fellows that lives here in the Moxee area, I believe it is. I don't have his name right now--Hernandez or--pardon? Martinez, and I've talked with him, but he's so bitter about this whole situation, it's hard to get a lot of information out of him. Because his dad worked with my dad, and he had such bitter memories that his son, which is the one living now, is so down on the situation. I've talked with him a couple times, and it's been very interesting. But it's just hard to talk about. Bauman: Sure. Holm: Especially for him when his dad was right there working with my dad. Bauman: Right. Holm: Oh, excuse me, I'll have to retrace on that. My mom was from the Galvin area in Centralia. Bauman: Oh, okay. Holm: And they had an old, old farmhouse out there. And that's where her best friends were living, and she still visited with them up until probably five years before she passed away. But it was kind of a large family, and she really enjoyed that area, a very nice, quiet area, and she went to school there, and graduated from high school. But then after that, I don't know. I don't really know, unless they maybe had gone to dance. You know, they had grange dances then. Maybe that's how she met my father, but I wouldn't be able to tell you. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I noticed in doing some research looking back there was a reference that—an old newspaper--that your mother in 1939, I think '40 was secretary of the grange in the area where the ranch was. Holm: Oh, uh-huh, yeah. Yeah, there was a picture, some picture, in a photo. I noticed that, which I wasn't aware of at all. And she belonged to some women's club. Bauman: So going back, I want to go back a little bit to your father again. And you mentioned that he came from Germany, and do you know was he looking for somewhere to farm, to buy some land? Holm: Yes. Bauman: Do you know why eastern Washington, how that happened or just there was land available? Holm: Well, I guess that would be the situation. He found the land here or in White Bluffs or whatever, and it was real appealing, and so I don't know how long his search went on. I don't know how long he tried to pursue the situation, but that's what he wanted to do was farming. Bauman: Now, I've been out to the site, and I've seen what's left of the building there, and I know there are also these large ceramic irrigation pipes there that you can still see parts of. Do you know terms of other outbuildings what else was there, besides the house and the cook house? Holm: No, just the pastures to keep the animals when they were supposed to be in. And I wasn't allowed to go out, because when you're so small, you're around the house most of the time. And my grandma was quite protective also. Helping my mom with the children, and cooking for 17, 18 people was not an easy job. So when my grandma helped and went shopping with us, she had a harness deal that she put on me because at that time when children were small, I guess that was the best way to be sure that they don't get away from you. Of course, nowadays are different. They don't take care of the children like they used to. Whatever the children do, that's fine--run away or run two blocks ahead of your family. It doesn't matter. But my grandma was pretty strict. So she wanted to know where we were at all times. [LAUGHTER] So I, at one time--I guess this is my brother's story. He was out in the fenced area, along the fenced area, and got kicked by one of the animals because he shouldn't have been there at that time. So but I'm sure that that was something that he had mentioned in the other interview, which was kind of funny. But other than that, it's just real hard to remember any of the--I don't even remember the house. Bauman: Sure. Holm: That's the thing that really gets to me. I just can't remember the house at all, where the living room was or where the bathroom was or nothing. It's just really--but when you go back in your life, I don't think you can remember when you were two and a half, three years old either. I have a slight vision of where on the surroundings, but that's about it. And then when we moved from that area and had to get out, I think that I do remember there was a substation at Hanford. That was some good friends of my folks', and I would stay there because they were busy moving. And I don't remember if they moved temporarily to Sunnyside or not, but they moved in this house. I'm sure it's down by the junior college, and I was playing on a lot. They had a house that they rented, and then there was a little house the set back on the lot, and I was playing there with the gang. And somebody was batting a baseball, and I was too close behind him, so he hit me in the head with the bat. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Oh, no. Holm: And that was like three years old, three and a half years old or whatever it was, and that's why I remember that house so much. But we were only there for a short while, while my dad and mom were trying to secure place to find. And they bought the house from Damon Canfield. He was not a senator, but somebody that was kind of involved in government things. And my dad always, of course, being in that nice, antique house out there, which was kind of actually European, more European than anything you could find here, he always, always said, oh, this house is just--it's just not a good house. He just like sold me a piece of junk. And he was always disappointed in that house, because it wasn't a quality house. So he probably wished he had his stone house back. Bauman: Right, right. So when he purchased the land, was the house already there--the house and the other buildings? Holm: On the ranch? Bauman: On the ranch, yes. Holm: Yes, it was a complete package. I don't believe he built anything or added on anything. He just took over, and that was that. Bauman: Mm-hm. So you mentioned your grandmother would take you--she had to go shopping. Holm: Yeah, she took me shopping. Bauman: Do you know where she would go? Holm: They had to go to Sunnyside. That was the only closest place with enough shopping, because they were kind of far away from--I mean, there's no corner grocery stores or anything like that that would suffice, because they had to buy quite a few things to feed that many people. And then when I went with my folks in their '38 Chevy pickup, is that correct? We always made a stop, and that's very interesting. I don't know if my brother remembers. I don't think I'm making this up. Sometimes I think I am, but we always made a stop along the road, along the highway somewhere, on the way to Sunnyside because there was this old hermit, and he had a name I think. But he thought so much of my mom, he would always say, oh, hi, Mary. And I would be sitting there on the seat, and we always stopped and talked to him. But he was an absolute hermit that was living out in the no-man's land or desert or whatever, and he had a full beard, just like Santa Claus. But he was so interesting to talk to, and they always wanted to stop and say hi to him or say hello. And that's about the most exciting thing I ever remember, because we never passed him up without speaking. But when I tell my brother about that, he--of course, a lot of times he stayed behind. He wasn't always--he was old enough that he could stay behind and not have to go on these shopping escapades or whatever. But other than that, there's nothing that is real interesting enough that I can think of. Bauman: So my sort of impression now is the ranch was fairly isolated, away from any of the towns. Holm: Yeah, uh-huh. Bauman: Do you know who some of the closest neighbors might have been? Did your parents ever talk about any of the families? Holm: Gilhuly. Gilhuly was--and I don't know what his first name was. He was pretty close there and his wife. In fact, I think he's still living today. They live right down across from St. Paul's School in quite a nice brick home. But his wife isn't real interested in this Hanford situation because she is the daughter-in-law, I guess you might say, and she wasn't there. It was just her father-in-law, I guess you might say. And there was Gary Wills--W-I-L-L-S--that was living in that area with his wife, because when they moved, they moved along the same time as my folks. And then they moved down to South Seventh Avenue, and they kept their friendship up until the time that they passed away. So they must've lived--I don't remember them from the ranch, but that's why they kept up the friendship because they were neighbors. And there's a few other names that I can't think of right now, but if they were mentioned, every once in a while, I recognize my folks mentioning that name. Bauman: Right. Holm: But I don't think that there is any other names that I can remember. I'd have to see a list. Bauman: Sure. So in 1943, of course, your parents and anyone living in that area there was notified that they had to leave. Holm: Uh-huh, my folks didn't really, I guess you might say, burden us children with that kind of a situation. Because they were quite private people anyway. And if they would have talked a lot about the situation, it would have been kind of a bad deal for us. So they just--Papi talked about it in the evening when we went to bed, because we went to bed like 7:30, eight o'clock, not 11 o'clock, like a lot of kids nowadays. And so they would talk among themselves but not involve us. Bauman: Sure, sure. Later, when you were older, grown up, did you ever talk with them about it, about having to leave? Holm: No, my dad, I think, would have had a hard time discussing that, or talking about. So they didn't, no, they didn’t really talk about it at all, that I can recall. But as children, or younger, you're not interested in that kind of a thing anyway, and then when you're older you think, hmm, boy, that was sure too bad that I wasn't better informed. So, no, they didn't—I can't ever remember them discussing it at all. Bauman: When we were talking earlier, you mentioned that you and brother, Donald Gary Peterson, back to the site a couple years ago or so. I wonder what that experience was like for you. Did it bring back any memories, or was it more sort of you learning more about this place? Holm: Well, yeah, learning more because my brother really hadn't talked about it very much either, so I'm kind learning, just from reading the articles that have come up during this whole research, which is very interesting. Bauman: So after your parents got the notice then had to leave, your family then moved to Sunnyside briefly. Is that-- Holm: Well, I don't know if they went to Sunnyside, and, if they did, it was probably just for like two or three weeks, because they would have been coming this way to look for a property. In fact, I may have stayed with that family. I stayed with my aunt in Portland, I know. They moved all separately, and my aunt moved to Portland to Sandy Boulevard. And my folks, in the process of moving, had sent me there with them, because it's hard to move with small children. And I think they used Mayflower Moving. I remember that huge Mayflower truck, and I spent time down there waiting for them to get their bills all gathered together, and we you have to go down the office and do this and do that. But I do remember it was Mayflower. And I stayed with my aunt like three or four days, at least, because they needed the help. And that would be when I was three plus. Bauman: And then eventually, your family moved to Yakima. Holm: Yeah, they found the house up here and came and got me, and we moved in, and that was that. It wasn't exactly the best situation because I think my dad had to build or add a little bit to the--there was just a garage, an old garage, shop area or something, and he had to build on a big platform for fruit. So it wasn't the situation he wanted, but that's the only thing he could find at the time. Bauman: So, the cook house is one of the few structures left, not just from your ranch, but from the whole area there, very few structures. Holm: Yeah, yeah. Bauman: Why do you think it'd be important for people to learn about these small towns and the farms and the people who lived out there before the war? Holm: Well, it's Gary and the other people involved kept calling it the warehouse, and I don't believe that that is right at all. Because my folks always stressed the point that they had a lot of an awful lot of stress or load on getting everybody fed at one time. And it was kind of like a longhouse, actually, with tables, of course, and it was quite a production to get everybody fed and back out helping. So I do believe that that's what it was called, but the other structures, I don't remember a whole lot about. But it's kind of nice to have everyone knows the different structures that were out there. But when we went out, even when I was younger, we went out to check on things, but there was really no interest because I didn't really know what was going on or what to think. I don't know, when you're small, you just don't realize what goes on with your parents and such. Bauman: Right. You told the story earlier, your brother, about getting kicked by an animal. Are there any other stories or things that he's told you that--he's a little bit older than you--that he remembered that-- Holm: No, we just were always playing out in the yard. And I can't remember now if there was a little bit of a fenced yard, but you just draw such a blank that it's real hard to tell you anything more because I just was so young. Bauman: Sure. You mentioned earlier that your father talked about that the house there being superior to-- Holm: Oh, yeah, it was a much better constructed and very solid house. Bauman: Did he talk much at all in other ways about the ranch, about the place at all or-- Holm: No, he couldn't. He just couldn't talk about it. So he didn't, I guess. That's what you might say. Just like all the other people. There isn't very many people that--they're probably passed away now, but there wasn't very many people that could talk about that because it was a horrid situation. That is that. Bauman: Well, I don't have any more questions for you. Is there anything else that you would like to say or something I haven't asked you about? Holm: No, I don't think so, not at this time. I just wish that my brother was here to maybe help you a little bit more. He could be here in a little while. Bauman: Well, hopefully we can arrange that. But I really appreciate your time. Holm: Yeah, I just wish that I could tell you more or come up with more, but I just like draw a blank. Bauman: This is very helpful and very interesting, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Holm: Mm-hmm. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 259 kbps Location The location of the interview Yakima, Washington Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:31 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1940-1943 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Herbert, Von Ludwig, Paul Ludwig, Bruggemann Hoard, Mary Etta Canfield, Damon Wills, Gary Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paula Holm Description An account of the resource An interview with Paula Holm conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-6 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-09: Metadata v1 created – [RG] White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2045b923bd00154088960e93b3ffe999.jpg 5594f32cffd1155c8710490f27309e4a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2a1f5cb600d503379e0b3c691cdae908.mp4 9924474cd3bfd6785749acdeb0e844bf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Brinson Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:36:17 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1960-2000 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 Moulster, Louis Lyman Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 50 Kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Brinson Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Brinson part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-10: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. White Bluffs (Wash.) Scripto Transcription A written representation of a document. <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Northwest Public Television | Brinson_Robert </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Robert Bauman: --2013 and the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I’ll be talking to Mr. Brinson about his family’s history at Hanford. And his family stories, experiences, memories about that community. If you could tell me sort of how and why your family came to Hanford, when that was, and what family members were part of that initial coming to Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Robert Brinson: Well, let’s see, I’ll start with my mother’s family was originally up in Ruth when she was born. In kinda north central Washington. And grandpa was working at the train station there, as a depot agent, telegrapher. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Camera man: Oh, let’s stop. Yup. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Oh, sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Camera man: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: All right? Okay. All right, so talking about your family. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Robert Brinson: Okay, mom's family, which was the Moulsters. My grandpa was Louis Lyman Moulster, the depot agent telegrapher at the, I think it was, the Milwaukee Railroad in Ruth, Washington, when mom was born. I'm not sure how old they were when he got just a little spooked about the immigrants who were coming in to that area and decided they'd move. So they moved on to Hanford. And he took over the depot down there and raised his family. And there was Mom and Aunt Louise. Twin sisters Margaret and Mildred and younger sister June, which they called Babe. The oldest one was Uncle Lyman. And the baby of the family was Uncle Arthur. When he came along, Grandpa was busy with a train about to come in so he couldn't take Grandma to the hospital. So Uncle Lyman had to drive the car, and this is a 12-year-old kid driving an old Model T to the hospital. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Where was the closest hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: In Pasco. Lady of Lourdes in--I think it was still in Pasco, early in that time. But when the word got back the baby had been born, he kind of slapped his knee and said, that's the caboose. [LAUGHTER] No more kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So what year did that family come to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, I'm not certain. It's probably in the late 1910 to 1915, somewhere in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Okay. And the name is Moulster, M-O-U-L-S-T-E-R? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Right, yeah. They came out of Wisconsin, originally. And Dad's family came out of Arkansas. He was only two years old when the family moved out here. All of them is, let’s see, brother Paul and sister Irene--or not—sister Bernice. Brother Herbert and Albert were all born, no, not Herbert, except for Herbert, they were born back in Fayetteville. They moved out to Seattle from there, and that was where Uncle Herb was born. But they didn't stay there long. They moved to—oh, I’ve forgot, you've got it in your notes there in that one I sent you--to one of the towns in eastern Washington, before they moved to Hanford, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: And they got what, 1918, I think they settled in Hanford. And not in Hanford, the foothills of the Rattlesnakes out there, where the Benson Ranch was up where Fitzdriver Hart is now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: So they ran the ranch up there. Had the sheep and everything. And the boys would raise the sheeps that were what that the mothers wouldn't raise. So they had a good--they said it was a great place to grow up. The Moulsters and the Brinsons were all friends from almost the get-go. Even living 18 miles away from each other they would visit back and forth all the time. And so, that's eventually Mom and Dad ended up at--It happened that when they finished with the apple crop down here, the kids would go up to the Wenatchee area, where further north where the crops were still coming off, so they could get some more work in. Earn some more money. And so they were-- just happened to be up there in a little town close to Wenatchee--and they were picking apples in a tree, and Dad got it in his head and asked Mom he thought they'd known each other long enough that maybe they should think about getting married. So she agreed, up there at the top of the apple tree ladder. So that's where all that started. And then I was born in 1937. The same trip to the hospital in an old Model T. Dad grumbling all the way, why'd anybody want to live out in the middle of nowhere like this. So I only got to experience Hanford for probably four years. But I did hear tales about how I would like to run off, because nobody locked doors in those days. And so if Mom turned her back too long, I'd dash out the door and go down the street to see Aunt Bernice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: She would tell that story on and on and over and over as she entered in her elderly years when she got a little bit, I think it was Alzheimer's, probably is what it was, you know how they repeat themselves. So I heard that story a lot when I'd go to visit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So the house you lived in, was it in town? Or did you have a farm? Or what sort of place was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No, it was right in town there because Dad had the little beer parlor, ice cream parlor combination. There was a room in the back where the men played cards. And they had--kids'd scrounge ice cream cones and men'd drop in for a beer. And even the Indians'd come by and try to get alcohol, which you couldn't legally sell it to them. So he had to keep a little short barrel .22 short pistol under the counter to dissuade the more belligerent of the tribe when they tried to buy alcohol of off him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Does it have a name, the pool hall or beer hall ice cream parlor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: I never did hear if it was just a Hanford pool hall or whatever. Otherwise it was just--there were probably just orchards all around town and up and down the river, is all it was, was fruit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So the Brinson family had the place 18 miles out. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: That, well, they worked for the. Benson, E. F. Benson I think was his initials. He was the owner of the ranch. And he built a house for the family out there. Had running water from a spring. And the kids got to drive in to--I think it said in the letter Uncle Herb wrote--that it was the county bought him a Model T to drive in to the school at Cold Springs. And then somebody found out they were actually were in the Hanford School District so they had to, even though Cold Springs was closer, they had to drive 18 miles to Hanford to go to school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: So that must've been quite an experience. You can imagine teenage boys doing stuff like that. Would've been kind of fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Had you heard any other stories about the school itself? About your dad or your aunts and uncles? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No. There was something that nobody ever really made clear, that he did have to spend a year at a high school up north in--can't remember the name of that little town. Now, I ever got a letter on my sweater with a big P on it. Pateros. Yeah, Pateros High School. So he must have got into some kind of trouble and had to go away to a different high school for a year. Because I think it was like 1930, 1931, when they graduated. It was 1935, I think, when they got married, so. So there was some time, he spent time in the President Roosevelt's CCCs, building campgrounds and trails in the mountains around the state. And he actually went and spent some time down in Oregon on the Salmon River, I think, panning for gold one spring. He had a few adventures away from Hanford before he came back and committed himself to a long, long marriage with Mom. Yeah, so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Well, talking about FDR and the CCC, any of your family members ever talk to you about the Depression? What it was like growing up or living in Hanford during the Depression? Did it have an impact on the community in any way? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: You know, they always talk like it was the most wonderful place in the world. They didn't have any financial problems because they took care of everything themselves. They had their own herds and their own fruit and vegetables. Didn't depend on when the government came along with the social programs. They went off and made a dollar a day and sent whatever portion was required for them to send home. A certain percentage they had to send home. It was never, never heard of a word, like there was any kind of hardship at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Now the Moulster family, did they have a place in town, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, the railroad supplied a house for Grandpa and Grandma. So he would go down and greet the trains when they came in. And of course all the family had free passes so the kids could, during summer vacation, they could hop on a train, ride anywhere they wanted to go, for nothing. So they'd go over to Seattle and visit relatives. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: That's nice. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, they had a good time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Sounds nice. How long was your grandfather work for the railroad in Hanford then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Until the government came in. And they moved from there to Prosser and they retired. And they lived in Prosser for the rest of his life. I think he died, oh, somewhere like 1957 or 8, somewhere like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Do you have any idea how busy of a train stat--like how often trains came through? Once a day? A couple times a day? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: I never heard, no. You would expect maybe at least once a day to have to keep a guy there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm, you’d think so, right. I was wondering about, you talked about the beer parlor/pool hall and ice cream parlor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: I wonder if any of your family members ever talked about recreational activities, picnics, or Fourth of July celebrations, or things that kids did for fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Just when they'd visit families back and forth. They'd go out to the Benson ranch on Sundays, usually after church, and they'd have a big supper. And, like I said in the write up, they would make a big tub of ice cream. You know it probably was salt and ice and stirred all up. And when they'd come the other way down to Hanford and they probably went to the river in a summer day, cause that's where the whole town gathered, right there in the swimming hole. Only place to keep cool. And you can imagine those blistering summer days like we get around here. Without, back before they had a lot of the agriculture we have now. Wasn't nearly as cool, probably. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Right. Yeah. Then there's winter, also, which is a completely different. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah there's pictures. I've seen pictures at the reunions of the frozen Columbia with a herd of sheep going across. And just amazing. The ice skating, of course, on the same place they'd swim in they'd be ice skating on it in the wintertime. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Now, when your family was at the Benson ranch, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Dad's family, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So it was sheep. Did they also grow crops at all? Apples, peaches, anything along that—orchards? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No, it was always strictly for wintering the sheep, I think, mostly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: In the springtime they'd drive them out onto the sagebrush flats out in the range. Well, even today if you drive--we just got back from a cross-country trip to Kentucky, and out through Wyoming and Utah there, you see sheep all over the place. You see the little carts out there the sheep herder lives in. It's just like it was back then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: You talked about the Brinson and Moulster families being close, were there other families, do you know, that you got close to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, there were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: --Or knew really well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: When they had the get-togethers, the reunions were just the happiest times, when they'd all get together and they'd hash out the old memories from. And they'd talk about the people around the mercantile downtown. And the different neighbors, all of them. It was too young for me to remember most of the names. I remember a few names. I think the store was run by the Boyd family. And of course there were the Clarks. Ilian Clark was one of the latest, or she went to our church, actually. I mean she would, she's the one that'd always try to organize the sing-alongs at the reunions. She would play the piano and try to get everybody the sing all the old songs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. What about churches in the community? Were there a number-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: I think there was only a Presbyterian church there. I think that's what everybody went to, if they were so inclined, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And did your family get to some of the neighboring communities very often? To White Bluffs or Richland? I know the hopsital’s in Pasco, but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Not that they've mentioned very often. They've had quite a rivalry going with White Bluffs that even carried on into the reunions. The Hanford folks and the White Bluff folks still had a few issues, even going into those later days. Probably sports teams and such like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Probably schools and sports teams. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So let’s talk a little bit now about World War II and when the federal government decided that they were going to build a site out where the community of Hanford was. What do you know about that? Or what have you heard from your family members? I know you were only four years old or something at the time. What sort of stories have you heard about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: There was a lot of bitterness. And even to this day, some of them, like that one fellow you mentioned that you'd interviewed before, I'm sure you must have heard from him how hard it was on some of the folks to walk, practically walk away from a orchard just ready to probably pick and produce a crop and make a profit for you for the first time. And you have to walk away from it. You can imagine what kind of bitterness that might produce. See, we had already left by probably 1942. And Dad decided a growing family needed a better income, so he got on at the shipyards over there in Tacoma and then Grandpa followed. We lived together for a while over there. And did a little work. Didn't come back ‘til 1948. But you heard the stories at every reunion from just about the same people. They repeat the same stuff. [LAUGHTER] Grandpa Brinson got his--after all the work he did on his place, planting the peach orchard and everything--he got 700 whole dollars out of the government for it. And I'm sure it was similar for a lot of the other folks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: $700 is what—is all he got? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: That's all he got for his house, outbuildings, and orchard, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So you were in Tacoma, your family was in Tacoma though at that point. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Right, before they-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Did you hear about it at that point? Do you know did your family hear about it from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well, I'm sure there were--I'm not sure how they communicated. Mostly by letters, probably. I don't think that there was--well, yeah, there must have been long distance at that time. But, yeah, I don't recall, of course, being at that age, a lot of telephone traffic at all. But I'm sure they heard from the folks. Because after it happened we'd take a lot of trips back over the mountains to visit Grandma and Grandpa there in Prosser. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: They had moved to Prosser then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, a lot of folks moved to Prosser. A lot of them moved to Yakima and surrounding towns out through there. It scattered them pretty good, so it was always nice to see them come back. The reunions were really crowded in the early days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Do you know about when those reunions started? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, it had to have been in the late '40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So pretty soon after the war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Probably in the, yeah, '47 to '49, somewhere in there probably. You know the kids--all the kids noticed was free ice cream, free pop. [LAUGHTER] And a lot of grass and trees to play under, play around under. So my sister was the one that—she would love to sit under the picnic table and listen to all the adult talk going on. But us kids, us boys, we'd just run around and play. We didn't care about that kind of stuff. So she heard all the stories, but you couldn't talk her into coming in for an interview, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So when did you--since you were only four years old or so when your family left Hanford-- when did you first become aware of the family story here and what had happened to the communities here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, well, when they would take us to the reunions, they'd hear the stories and, of course, even family get-togethers you'd hear it then, too. ‘Cause we'd always have a get-together in a Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving. There'd always be a family get-together, so you'd hear all the stories around the dinner tables. All the fellowship around that time, most times of the year. And there'd be a lot of good-humored joking, but there's always that underlying disappointment. It would've been nice to have carried on and grown up and realized the full potential of a community like that. Along the river would've been a beautiful place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. So I was going to ask you--one of the reasons we're doing this project is to get memories and stories about families that were there, so that someone in the future, a student maybe, or maybe a descendant of yours could listen and watch the video. What sorts of things or anything that you would especially like people like that to know about, or know about the community of Hanford, or about your family that you think it would be important to let them to know about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, probably the most important thing would be I think the freedom you felt like you had in those days, even at four years old and you don't really don't realize the importance of it. You had it, when you could just run out of the house and go visit some aunt up the street and not worry about being lost or being abducted by some nutball. And the people were independent and helped each other. And it was just, compared to how things are today, wow. Yeah, don't get me started on the politics going on today. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So in other words, it was a community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. There was even-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: People who really felt like a community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. You could tell when you see them at the reunions how close they were. Just a whole lot of hugging going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Well, just the fact that they had those reunions and kept doing those for so many years suggests-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. Yeah the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: --strong bond, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, the people that organized those had to really be committed because that took a lot of work, sending out all the letters and getting together all the food, all the materials it took. And then they would put out tables and tables of old photographs and paper, newspaper clippings, and stuff like that. I hope you were able to get ahold of some of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: I did, yeah, see some of that, yeah. Have you or any of your family members ever gone back, say on one of the tours that goes out? Been able to go see the former sites out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: A few times we went out to. One time when they let you take your cars out, they kind of travel out there following the DOE guy. They let you park and walk around, trying to find your old home site. My mom always knew by the shape of some tree about where their house was. And her cousin Dick went with us one time, and he got to poking around out there and he actually found a little fish pond that his father had built for him. It was all covered over by sagebrush and stuff. But he managed to find it and brush off the stuff. But it was just made out of stones that were just kind of cemented in. It was probably no bigger than that, but it was only so deep, but it was. It meant a lot to him to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Oh sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: --to be able to find that and remember that part of his life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Wow. Do you know when that might have been, that he would have went back out there and found that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, that was probably in the late '60s, early '70s, in that area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And you mentioned that your mom was able to by the shape of a tree know where. What sort of response did she have to going back out there? Did you get a chance to talk to her about that? Or were you out there with her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. Oh yeah, she liked it. Her thing, like I said, was down at the old swimming hole. She kind of graded everything by where the swimming hole was, where that meant that. And then she could figure out where that tree was. And then that house stood right there by the tree. Some of the houses, they moved out of there to other parts of the countryside that weren't on the project. Some of them might still be in use today for all I know. But, oh yeah, she'd get excited every time we'd go out there and remember--remembering things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. So she seemed to really appreciate being able to go out there again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh yeah. Invariably it'd be a real hot day and it'd be uncomfortable out there. You'd usually gather around the old high school there. The shell was still standing. Must have been quite--I guess, the bank building. Maybe that was in White Bluffs, so it was still standing too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: White Bluffs Bank, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. But you must've had if she could remember that well just by a few things that were she had a real--she knew that town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. She grew up there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Knew it well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, that was when she used to tell us about sleeping out on the hay stacks at those hot summer evenings, and listening to the coyotes howl. Falling asleep to that noise. What she called music. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Remember any other stories she used to tell you about things like that, that would've been sort of unique to the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No, not really. She did leave to go to Seattle to go to secretarial school. Or business school, she called it. Business school. So she went to a couple years of that. And then probably right after that they probably got married. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: With the proposal in the apple orchard-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, and then moved to Tacoma over in probably '42. I think so. But they did have a lot of close friends that they could talk for hours about the old times, the good times. Especially if the sisters got together. Boy, they could--Man, it was—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: It sounds like she had a lot of very fond memories of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: They were, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And did your dad talk about much, talk about the old community much? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. They had the men's fraternity, I guess you'd call them, were pretty close. They had a lot of—especially the high school kids--they were the hardest things ever. So and Dad was, when one of his friends was killed at Guadalcanal, it took him a long time to get over that, because it was his best friend. So, yeah, they were really close. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And so you said your family then moved to Tacoma and then '48 came to Kennewick? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Came back to, yeah, it's cause Dad got a job at the--actually, we stopped for a year in Prosser, lived with grandparents until we got, finally bought a piece of property in East Kennewick. And then he had a house built. And we lived with Herb and his family on East Fifth Street while the house was being built on East First Place. So eventually got moved in there and spent--that's where us kids grew up right there, at East Kennewick, so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And what did you think of Kennewick when you came back, when you moved in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, just immediately there was guys to run around with and we just formed a bond right there. We were the four musketeers. We would—[LAUGHTER] There were no gangs back then, I guess we were about as close as you could get to a gang, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Yeah. I guess I asked, what it would feel like being in the Tri-Cities knowing that a lot of the people in the area were working, out at the Hanford site, which is where your family used to live? Have any feelings about that? Does it seem a little odd at all or strange or? What are your thoughts about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well, we didn't really think about it that much. Most of the activity was closer to Richland, in the Camp Hanford area. And right out there where the town site was there was never any--It just happened to be in the middle of the condemned area. Yeah, I don't think we ever resented. We were too young to work up resentments at that point. We were having too much fun growing up in East Kennewick. Because back then East Kennewick went clear out to Finley, you could roam forever out through there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So are there anything that I haven't asked you that, or any event, or memory or family story that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, it's one of those things that you might wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning and say, Oh, yeah I should've said that. [LAUGHTER] But right now I just can't draw on anything, anything else. It was just with all the aunts and uncles and the friends, it was just a wonderful time of life, a wonderful place to have been a part of, for a little while, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So I do have one other question. So I know your father and grandfather and your family went to Tacoma. What happened to, say, cousins and aunts and uncles, cousins, other families you're related to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well they, yeah, mom's oldest brother ended up in California as a bulldozer operator. The twins, one twin, Aunt Mildred, never did give married, and Aunt Margaret married a wheat farmer out of Walla Walla. Let's see, Aunt Babe married Uncle Doc Jones from Tacoma. They lived in Tacoma, lived out their years in Tacoma. And, see, Uncle Arthur worked on the fire department in the Seattle fire department. Let's see, on Dad's side, Herb ended up running a Chevron station right down at the end of Washington Street there in Kennewick, and later on moved to Spokane and ran one up there in Dishman. And Uncle Paul moved to San Bernardino and passed away down there, after raising a family. Let's see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So did all the Brinsons then go to Tacoma, pretty much? Your uncles as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Generally, in that area, yeah. Uncle Albert ended up in Renton and raised his family. His son Gary is the—Gary Brinson of the Brinson Fund, you know. Multimillion. [LAUGHTER] He had to build a building there on the WSU campus for the business college, I guess you'd call it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: But he was younger than you, correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, yeah. Just a few years, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: So did he live out at Hanford at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: No. They all grew up in Renton. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: And then what about the Moulster side? Were they still living in Hanford when the government came in during the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because that's when Grandpa had to drop the depot agent job. Retire from the Milwaukee Railroad and move to Prosser, so. And I don't know who was, if Aunt Margaret hadn't married Uncle Bud at that time, so. They were in the, yeah, she and Aunt Millie both joined the Navy, that's right. They were both in the Navy ‘til the end of the war, so. So that's where they went. And so Uncle Arthur was also and flew in the--whatever aircraft that was. He was a navigator bombardier off of a carrier airplane of some sort. P-40 or something like that. Forces that have survived. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Now, did you or any of your family end up working at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Dad worked at the fire department in Richland for the rest of his career there. Central fire station. When I got out of the Air Force, I spent a couple years at CBC and got into the physical chemistry laboratory out there, in 300 Area. Worked out there for 40, 42 years. Retired in 2000. Paid for my- [LAUGHTER] Put a couple of kids through school from working out there. Yeah, it was a good place to spend a career. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Is there any final thoughts about the old Hanford town or of your family--families, even the Moulster or Brinson family, and their experiences there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Oh, the biggest thing was just missing them all so much. Just because it was such a wonderful family to grow up in. So supportive and loving, and just getting together at a drop of a hat. So many get-togethers and camping trips. Yeah, I wish I could have grown up older there and had more memories of the old Hanford town, but. But that's the way things go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: Well, I appreciate you being willing to come talk and share your memories and your family stories about Hanford and the community out there. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Well, I wish I could've helped you out more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: This is terrific. You were great. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: Okay, you're welcome. I'm glad you got a chance to talk to Mom there, that 12 years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX212019359"> Brinson: She made it to 97. </div> 300 Area Civilian Conservation Corps Hanford (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7eaed54d1dfb821db9e9fab8b3f9a99b.jpg 86240873c34b5a256878aa6d86d288c1 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F77acd93a82ba3343cba870c56358600a.mp4 af8305dd7ab20c0f8c81a6392623c715 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hungate, Frank Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Hungate_Frank Woman one: That’d be kind of cool if that was that. Man one: That’s exciting, because they pop when they do that. Robert Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, it’d wake you up, anyway, right? [LAUGHTER] Man one: Yeah. Bauman: Wow. Man one: Okay, are we about ready? Yeah? OK? Go ahead and roll. Is it rolling? Woman one: Record. Bauman: All right. Well, let's get started then. Let's start by having you say your name, and then spell your last name for us, please. Frank Hungate: Frank Hungate. And H-U-N-G-A-T-E. Bauman: All right, thanks very much. And my name's Bob Bauman. And today is August 14, of 2014. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri Cities. So I'd like to start maybe by asking you to talk about when you came to Hanford, and how that came about. Hungate: My wife and I came in August of 1952. And previously I had been teaching at Reed College, and had been doing some work in radiation, including treating a patient—helping advise and treat a patient who had advanced melanoma. And that was quite exciting because we were at Reed College, and we were consultant to the local physician. And this woman had big nodules the size of a fist around on her body. Bauman: Wow. Hungate: And we gave her a massive dose of I-131. And I prepared it and gave it to her. And the bottom line was I received Christmas cards from her from over ten years. And it was far as I know, was the only case that I ever heard of where that treatment was efficacious. And I guess partly because of that, and also I had become acquainted with the person from at the MAAC who was hiring. And they convinced me to come up here to Hanford. And we came in August, and it was bloody hot. And we were assigned a ranch house out on Cottonwood. And I guess one of the things--I came up a month early. And then my wife sort of cleared the house. And at that time, General Electric was the hiring person, there the governing body. And they paid for the move and everything. And it was sort of interesting, because when they moved, and we opened up the truck, here was a garbage can full of garbage to increase the weight that they could charge to you. [LAUGHTER] We moved, of course, from Portland. So that's sort of the basis on which I come up here. Bauman: Okay. And so what position were you hired into when you first came? Hungate: I was hired in as a research scientist in the biology department. And that department again, I had become acquainted with Harry Kornberg, who is the Director of the Biology Department at that time. Bauman: About how large was the biology department, at that time? Hungate: As I recall, the biology department at that time was about 110 or 120 people. And of course, at that time, it seems strange now, but at that time, we knew basically nothing about what the effects of radiation on living systems were. So our goal was to elaborate and expand our knowledge of the effects of radiation on living systems, and whatever system. Bauman: Right. So how do you go about testing that? Hungate: Well, of course, in addition to understanding the effects, one of the big problems was to monitor and determine the extent and magnitude of the dissipation of radiation from the reactors and from separations. And of course at that time, I-131 was a major factor. So we had extensive monitoring programs to evaluate where the radiation is going, how much was being released. We sampled milk from farms all over the Northwest here to determine the spread extent—potential impact on people. One of our programs was for monitoring rabbits, because they were a stand in for cattle. And we would monthly go out in the same area, collect half a dozen jack rabbits. And they were always plentiful. [LAUGHTER] And then evaluate their thyroid gland for the content of I-131 as well as bones for other isotopes. So monitoring was a major problem. And then of course later, this program was expanded to look much more widely. And we had a very extensive program on people. And Alaska was a big place, because it was observed that the Eskimos up there had periodic very high levels of radiation. I say high—that's relative to nothing—levels of radiation. And it was interesting because we discovered that the content of cesium--that's a law fairly long lived isotope that was prevalent in release. And this of course, was not from Hanford release, this was from bomb testing release, that we expanded to Alaska. And there the cesium became a significant factor. And we observed a number of things. One of the things I found quite very interesting was the seasonality of intake of--or our observing higher levels of the cesium in the Eskimos didn't appear to be like it should be. It was sort of displaced by six months. And we discovered that the reason is that the Eskimos hunted the reindeer during their migration period, after they had been browsing on lichen. That was their forage during the winter. And then the Eskimos would deep freeze these caribou—or reindeer--deep freeze them in their permafrost pits. And then they would eat them during the following six months, so that the high levels of cesium were offset. [LAUGHTER] And lichen is an interesting plant because it does not die back like annual plants. It continues to grow, and that's the reason that it accumulates, because it accumulates from the time it starts exist until it's eaten. And so you have an accumulation of material over a period of time. [LAUGHTER] As I think about it, another interesting thing, to me at least, was that among the cities that had levels of strontium higher than others was San Francisco. And we puzzled about that and finally concluded that probably the reason they had a higher level was that they ate a lot of whole wheat bread. And the whole wheat would contain typically higher levels of calcium. Well, strontium is a counterpart of calcium, so it would be taken up just like calcium would. And that's the only reason we could think of why San Francisco would have higher levels of that. So it was exploring not only the effects of radiation, but the distribution of radionuclides, not just from the plant here, but worldwide. Bauman: Interesting. So you mentioned that you studied rabbits onsite. What sort of findings did you have? Did they have any unusually high levels of iodine? Hungate: Well of course, they were very close in to the plant. And so their content of iodine was higher than as you go on out. So they sort of gave us an indication of any variation which would be interesting to follow up on. Bauman: So you came in 1952. How long did you work at Hanford? Hungate: Well, I really can't remember exactly when I retired, but I worked here close to 30 years. And then I had a very interesting period of about five years post-retirement from Pacific Northwest labs. I was hired to examine record literature. The cardboard boxes that contained all of the research notes, everything pertaining to Hanford, which had--amazing to me--had been stored and was looked at. And it was looked at because suddenly people became very interested in potential effects on people. And this came about during that period when there was quite a little agitation to reimburse people who could have taken up higher levels of radionuclides, either workers or downwinders, or whatever. And I had the opportunity of looking through the boxes. And I was telling my son, Tom, that one of the things that I was so interested in, and I was able to read the diary of Matthias, who had located this land. And also the descriptions of the construction. Our labs, at that time, in the earlier part, were out of 100F. Were just across the road from 100-F Reactor. And I was so interested to see the comments that were made during construction of it. This is--and I don't remember the dates--but those reactors were built in basically a year, when we knew nothing about radiation. Now of course, it takes about 15 or 20 years to build one, because there’s all kinds of hurdles to go through. Anyhow, as I was reading, why, here was this diary of the--and I can't remember his name—the officer who was in charge of the construction. And it said, and we've finished the third layer of carbon block today. [LAUGHTER] It was just very exciting. Bauman: You mentioned when you arrived in 1952, that it was really hot. Hungate: August, August, yes. Bauman: Yeah. What were your other first impressions of the area? Had you been here previously at all? Hungate: Well, I was born in Cheney, and we—many times we were driving down to visit my brother in Vancouver, or go to California, or one thing, and we had seen this area. In fact, I don't remember why, but on one occasion my wife and I were traveling with the children back from Priest Lake, and we came through on the 4th of July, late. And I remember we didn't know what was going on here at all. And here was fireworks-- [LAUGHTER] --celebration out in the midst of nothing. And so it was a bit later that then we discovered when the--of course when the bomb was used everything became very public. And I also had had an earlier sort of indirect exposure to this area. My brother's brother-in-law used to teach out at White Bluffs. And it was very notable because I remember they had a very heavy duty problem because Norm had come into Kennewick for some kind of a party or something. Movie maybe? And on the way back home, some kind of an accident occurred, and the fellow teacher was killed. And the whole family of course was quite upset, and trying to console Norm and make him feel not too miserable with the whole arrangement. So I had known a little bit about this area. In retrospect it's interesting, as a kid all this area between Spokane and here was sagebrush. Just endless sagebrush. Rolling hills of sagebrush. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] What was the community of Richland like when you arrived in 1952? Hungate: The big barracks that had been out at North Richland, had already been moved down to Vanport in Portland. And one reason that I know that had occurred was that they had the big Vanport flood while we were still in Portland. Where the dikes broke, and those huge dormitories went floating out into the Columbia on down the river. Anyhow, but we still had a lot of basically what I'd call shacks out in North Richland. And the town was sort of in a stage of recovery from heavy duty construction to operation. And the bypass was in place. We had the wind break around there. And that was a godsend, because those wind storms coming through were—I know our neighbors out on Cottonwood—we had a ranch house assigned to us—and our neighbors reported that previously when they had one of those dust storms come through, they'd put their--moist their towels and put them inside the windows, and still they'd have wind rows of dust. [LAUGHTER] And of course those were called termination winds. Termination because a lot of temporary construction disappeared. Blown away. And a lot of workers disappeared, moving away. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And when you moved into the ranch home on Cottonwood, I know Richland was a government town at the time. Were you able to own the home at that time? Hungate: Oh, no. That was assigned. We felt extremely fortunate in getting a reasonably nice sized home for the family and actually lived there three years, but then felt the pressure of needing a bigger place, and build over in Kennewick. It was sort of an interesting occasion because my wife and I, that night, each discovered that we found a piece of land that we were interested in. And when we went, we'd each seen the same piece. [LAUGHTER] A two-acre piece over in Kennewick. Bauman: I guess it worked out that you saw the same piece, then? [LAUGHTER] Hungate: It was fortunate it was the same piece. Bauman: So let's go back and talk a little bit more about the work you were doing. So you came as a research scientist in the biology department. I interviewed Bill Bair a while back, and he said that you hired him? Hungate: Yes. And I think after--there were a number of sort of group heads out there. Roy Thompson was a very heavy standard part, and gave me a lot of counsel in coming in. And I think it was either two or three years after we were here that we were able to get Bill to come and join us. And of course, he took over a lot of the animal work. I was initially a research scientist, and then became the head of the--I think it was called at that time, Plant Nutrition and Ecology, or something like that. And that's when I was in charge of monitoring the distribution of isotopes in Alaska, and one thing, and another. And then later the ecology group was split off. And I think I was then in charge of the Plant Nutrition Group. And instead of continuing to do individual research, I then carried on a program and gradually moved away from my prime field of genetics into a variety of other things. And I became heavily involved in looking at the use of radiation in foods. And became with my research, very, very much a positive--or my attitude was that it's very unfortunate we don't use radiation more in processing foods. I remember at that time they were using, and they may still be using, chemicals to inhibit sprouting in potatoes. And we found that a dose of--really a modest dose of maybe 5,000 rads--would inhibit sprouting. So I had access to it. And I typically always irradiated the potatoes I took home, because my wife really felt that they just kept much better. And so we used irradiated potatoes essentially all the time we were here. And one of the foods that I was very aware of was the papayas that—coming in from various places, and Hawai’i was a major one. They were treated with chemicals. And they came in and spotted and just not very--I had tasted and used when I was over on the island, irradiated papayas. And if they'd used irradiation instead of chemicals, they would have come in as basically just like they picked them off the tree. And the radiation of course was used—or the chemicals was used to get rid of noxious insects, pests that you didn't want to come into this country. Quite legitimate treatment, but I just felt they were using the wrong thing when they used chemicals. Then at a later stage, we became quite interested in just an evolving bone marrow transplant to treat leukemics. And one of the major problems that that kind of treatment, moving tissue between people is rejection. And early rejection was very serious when I first got involved. And we thought that there would be a possibility that irradiating the irradiation preferentially kills off actively dividing cells. And those who would be the white cells that cause leukemia, and also are the initiator of rejection. And so we scratched our head and came up with an idea for a blood irradiator. And that led to some work, and we evolved a unit using the radio isotope thulium as a radiation source. And there were three of us. Roy Bunnell was the chemist involved, and he made the units. Bill—hmm, can't bring up his last name—was the person who put everything together, and I was the sort of coordinator. I had to conceive the idea. Anyhow, we made and tested these blood irradiators in a variety of animals, mostly dogs. And our test was to transplant a kidney into the dog from another dog, and then determine how long it would survive as compared with unirradiated—dogs that had not been treated with the blood irradiator. And we found that there was always a significantly longer period of retention of the kidney. And in one particular case, there was—and I don't remember why it was so notable in that dog, except that he was on a little longer than others—when we autopsied, as we always did, to see what was going on, we examined the spleen. And a spleen typically is a mass about that size. In this case, it was hardly the size of an eraser on a pencil. It was just—all of the lymphocytes had been taken away. And that's the home for the lymphocytes, is in the spleen. And it shrunk the spleen down to basically nothing. But about the time we were well into that program, then they discovered a chemical—and I don't remember which one it is—which was very effective in suppressing rejection. And so there was a lack of interest in pursuing the blood irradiator. I think it's a possibility for treatments, various treatments that are resistant to other thing. One of the interesting features of the thulium is that you can make your object in the laboratory with no radiation whatsoever. And we use vitreous carbon to be the housing for the thulium. You put the thulium in whatever form you want, and then you get all your material formed, then you put it into a reactor and activate the thulium to become radioactive. So it's a very neat way of getting a radiation source where you don't have the problem of exposure during fabrication. Because of the advent of the chemical, there was no incentive to pursue and develop the blood irradiator into a human application. So although we had a patent, of course it's long lapsed. Bauman: Around what time period was this that you were working the blood irradiator? Hungate: I beg your pardon? Bauman: Around what time period would this have been that you were working on this? Hungate: Oh, I suspect we may have worked on that for I guess four or five years, maybe. Bauman: During what time would this have been? What years would it have approximately been? Hungate: I lose time. [LAUGHTER] I lose time. It's not-- Bauman: Yeah, that’s all right. I know in talking to Bill Bair, when he used dogs for his experiments, he used beagles. Did you use beagles for the experiments as well? Hungate: Yeah, we used the beagles as they say for--as our prime material. We also used both sheep and goats. And I look back with a great deal of pleasure because the goats were so interesting. They're quite an individual animal. And I remember of course, with the animal, the blood irradiator works by putting in what you call an AV shunt. An arteriovenous shunt. And the arterial pressure pushes the blood through. And the trick is to make your irradiator, or whatever it is, so that it doesn't cause clotting of the blood. And that was another part of the scenario, but I won't get into that now. But I would, at least once a day, check to make sure the flow was going. I used a Doppler flow meter, which measures the flow rate. And I remember as I was working with a goat, checking, and suddenly I realized that he was cropping my head. I didn't have much hair, but what little hair there was here, he was cropping. [LAUGHTER] He was trying to find something to munch on. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] That’s crazy. Where did you get the goats, and sheep, and dogs, were you able to [INAUDIBLE]? Hungate: We had, let's see, we had dogs, we had goats, we had sheep, we had miniature pigs. These were our primary experimental animals. And there were a lot of different experimental programs going on simultaneously. In fact, one of the programs that was going on was we were looking at the possibility, it wasn't my group, the possibility of using plutonium-238 to drive a heart pump—have an artificial pump for the heart. And one of the things that was relevant was whether the body could easily dissipate the heat associated with the decay of the Pu-238 in the amount that would be needed. And I remember one autopsy that was performed. And we would take an electrically--a battery driven electric heater and put in the dorsal aorta to simulate what the plutonium-238 heat would be. We were looking at whether the body could tolerate that much extra heat. And so they had these electrically-driven battery pack driven heaters. And on one occasion we autopsied a pig that had had one of these right in the thoracic dorsal aorta, and discovered that the heater had somehow fractured and broken, and yet we had never seen any sign of body function failure or anything. And it's quite amazing to think that the auxiliary circulation could take over so immediately from the failure of that main thing that feeds the kidneys, the gut, the whole thing, back legs, everything--but the auxiliary circulation had taken over without ever noticing any big damage. Quite amazing. The body is an amazing function—amazing machine. Another major program that I have always looked back on was the use of what we call void metal in bone replacement, or bone fracture, or whatever. And the theory—we would have these things that we were putting in—basis for teeth—basis for repairing a break in a bone. We'd have our metallurgy department make these void metal prostheses, and then put them in and the tooth work was done on pigs. And we'd put in this post in the pig. And then put the cap on, just like is done now in artificial teeth. And then the pigs would be chewing on metal bars, and one thing or another. And we never lost one. And I remember on one occasion--this was not my program, this was in biology department--on one occasion, we took a section of femur out and put in a sleeve of void metal. Put it in there and repair the—suited up. And put the goat right out to pasture. Never saw any effect. Goat walked around just as though it had nothing except a slight—the operation itself. And as a consequence of all this, when I had my hip transplant back before I retired in fact, I had had a bad injury on the hip. And when I had a hip transplant, I had the void metal put in. And they were available. And I still have that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So you've benefited directly. Hungate: Yeah. I've benefited from my knowledge. Yep. Bauman: So, you and your unit worked on a wide variety of research projects. Hungate: Well of course, some of those--the void metal and many of those were not in mine. I was simply involved as one of the team that was interested in what's going on. Bauman: Right. So when you came in 1952, you worked for GE, is that right? Hungate: Yes, and they were here for basically 10 years. I felt GE was an excellent organization to work for. Bauman: I guess—what made them an excellent organization to work for? Hungate: They had a policy where if there were corporate meetings, everybody in the company would know within 24 hours what happened. They were very interested in everybody being interested in the company. And since retirement and so forth I—on a number of occasions—have run into former GE people, and uniformly I have found that they were all pleased with working with that corporation. And I guess, I believe, GE is the only member of the original--what do they have? 25 corporations that form the basis for one of the big evaluation, the national evaluations we have. And I think they're the only one of the originals that still is a member. Bauman: And then when GE left-- Hungate: Then GE of course, found itself in a conflict of interest situation where they felt that they could not operate this for the government, and then be building reactors for private applications. And they bowed out. And that's when Battelle took over. And again, Battelle is a very, very good organization to work for. Nothing but pleasure. Bauman: I want to ask you about President Kennedy came out to the site in 1963. Hungate: [LAUGHTER] That was--what a flap! Bauman: What do you remember about that? Hungate: Well we, along with large numbers of others, went out and at that time my son, Jess, was a member of the band that was asked to play when he came in. And so we were all crowded around there and watching, and then here comes a helicopter. And the band the strikes up Hail to the Chief. Well, this and that got out. Not Kennedy. So then another helicopter comes in, and they strike up the band. Some people got out, not Kennedy. I think there were at least three or four that came in before Kennedy actually came in. [LAUGHTER] It was quite--but the band played for every one of them. And he gave a very, very good talk. I thought it was quite a nice occasion. Bauman: Mm-hmm. During your roughly 30 years or so that you worked at Hanford, you obviously must've seen a lot of changes take place. Hungate: Oh yes, of course. Bauman: Obviously one of them being the change from GE to Battelle. But what are other changes? Hungate: Well, of course, one of the most dramatic changes. We used to have this lab out—a cement block building out there, three or four stories, right near F Reactor. So that we drove out and went through the security and all that kind of thing. And I must say, those drives were sometimes pretty exciting because we carpooled. And I guess I got the reputation of being a fairly speedy driver. And I remember one occasion we were driving out there, and we'd had a freezing rain. And it was just sheet—slick. In fact, it was so slick that when I stopped out here on Harris to pick up the last member of our carpool, I put on the brake and we just sort of kept on going. That's when I learned that with an automatic, you do not just let it drive; you put it in neutral, and then put on the brake. Because the driving force—the engine is still pushing you, unless you take it out of gear. So my philosophy on driving was when you go quite a distance and it's a fairly straight road, you keep your momentum going forward. And so I guess I developed a reputation for being a fairly rapid driver on that kind of road. But we never had any accident in that occasion. I guess the worst time was one of our members of the car pool at one time was a young woman who had one of these cars that had the high fin on the back. And as I got out, having gotten through security, the security checkpoint, not the first one, the second one right as we went into F Reactor, I inadvertently slammed the door and didn't get my finger out, and cut off one of my fingers in that fin. So I had to take me back in, get it sewed back in place. But it's still there. I just have a little scar there. [LAUGHTER] Anyhow, the driving out, then—and I can't tell you when it was--they abandoned that lab and moved Biology into a lab here in the town, next to town, still on government land. And that of course negated the big drive out, so that we didn't have that big commute. That's one of the major things. Then of course, as initially when we were with GE, the object was a very general one. Of studying the effects on whatever living system it was. One of the projects that I was involved with, we were very unsure what was the rate of deposition of I-131 on vegetation. So we set up a tower and deliberately released I-131, and then monitored downwind at a distance, to see what the deposition on the vegetation was. It was this kind of thing. As I mention this, another of the programs—and this was not our program, but one that we had reviewed and approved was there was no knowledge of the recovery of cells from radiation—the ability of cells to recover. And one of the men—scientists from Seattle had proposed a system where they could irradiate the testes and then recover cells, because that's a fairly rapid reproducing system. Recovering cells at periodic times. And they used inmates at Walla Walla for that program. And later that become extremely critical--there was a great criticism of that program. I had mentioned earlier reading these boxes of literature. It was interesting, I came across a letter from an inmate, a Walla Walla inmate, complaining that he had not been selected to go into this program. [LAUGHTER] This was done--the reading of the letter—my reading was at the time when all this heavy criticism of that program. So times change. When you learn more about things, then you become more interested in some of the details. And we wanted the big picture. We wanted to explore the big picture of effects. And I don't remember where we were in the discussion, but—[LAUGHTER] Bauman: Yeah, you were answering a question I had asked about changes taking place. And you mentioned a couple times security, having to go through security. Obviously, security was very much emphasized at Hanford. I wonder what ways that impacted you at all? Your work in any way? Or was it more just everyday you had to go through security to get--? Hungate: Had to be sure you had your badge. I guess in the security, that's a mixed bag. I guess one of the most troublesome times I had--and I don't remember what timeframe this was, except it was very early--was during the McCarthy era where we were forced, if we wanted to continue employment, to sign some kind of an agreement they were non-communist. I don't remember what it was. And I had quite a lot of soul searching to determine whether I was going to sign it or not. Because the whole era I felt so strongly was not appropriate. But when I actually read what was there, I decided I would sign it and stayed on. But if you didn't sign it, you were let go. Bauman: Did you know people who chose not to sign it at all? Hungate: I think I knew two or three, but there was a general signing, yeah. This was the era of course, when so many of the people in Hollywood were being heavily hit with this whole attitude. They didn't have to sign, but they certainly were abused. Bauman: Mm-hmm. Did security at the site get relaxed at all over the years? Or was it always pretty-- Hungate: Always pretty rigorous, yeah. And of course speaking of security, one of the things that I learned early on is how to put clothes on and take them off without getting any contamination on yourself. [LAUGHTER] You learn techniques of clothing, and how to handle radiation so that you are not seriously exposed, damaged. And we had very excellent so-called health physics people who monitored how we handled things. And if we were working with radiation, we always had a health physicist right there indicating—if we made a misstep, they'd tell us right there. Now that's not security; it's security in a different manner. But as far as I guess in security, very early on, we would, several times a day, see a security car going around through town. And almost immediately when we moved in, there was a security guy came and checked to make sure it was appropriate. And speaking of driving through town, that was a period when DDT was extensively used, and we were sort of appalled by—the mosquitoes were a serious problem. They had the potholes around the rivers here and so forth. And they had heavy duty sprayers going through town, putting out a fog--literally a fog--of DDT in this—whatever the carrier was. And it was so sort of shook my wife and me to see kids riding their bicycle right in this heavy fog following these foggers around town [LAUGHTER] breathing diesel or whatever it was that they were putting out, plus the DDT. I guess the kids survived well. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Going back, you've mentioned the special gloves that you wore, what other precautions did you have to take when you were working with radioactive material? Did you have other special clothing you had to wear? Hungate: Oh, yes. You always--when you were working, you always used at least a lab coat. If you were working where there was any potential for anything, then you had--you would have a coveralls, your shoes would be covered with canvas. Everything would be taped so that you were basically--here your face would be out, but nothing else. Your hands--these would be taped to the sleeves of the coveralls so that you were using--and when you got out of it, then you had to take these off in a manner so that if there was contamination on the clothing, you didn't get yourself contaminated. Now again, always with a health physicist. Bauman: And did you have to go through any sort of training—safety training for that? Hungate: No, we just really sort of were guided by the health physicists. And of course I had--while I was still teaching at Reed--I had taken a one-month course at Oak Ridge. And that had sort of prep me for this whole program. I took that because Reed had a reactor. And may still have it. I don't know. Anyhow, and that's of course why I got into that treatment of that patient who had the melanoma, because I had had some training in the use of radioisotopes. Bauman: You've mentioned a number of different research programs or projects that you were involved in. I wonder, in your 30 years working at Hanford, what were some of the more challenging aspects of working Hanford? Some of the challenging things you worked on, and maybe some of the most rewarding? Hungate: Well, of the things about being a research scientist, is that you sort of set your own agenda. And I guess after Battelle took over, there was not a ready access to overall programs. And one of the challenges that we had to move into was writing a proposal for funding. And that came with Battelle. And then your program was dependent on that being accepted for use during the next year or two. And I think many of us found that one of the more challenging problems. And of course any scientist nowadays is doing the same thing every year—writing a program by which they get funded. And as a scientist, I think that's one of the biggest challenges that you have. Once you get the funding, then you have different challenges, but they're much more easily visualized and taken care of. That it was quite an awakening when we moved from the overall general funding, where there was a great deal of cooperation among different physicists, chemists, whatnot, biologists, to having individual programs that were funded. And at the time, we thought it was a regression. But it was just simply a maturation of programs that had to occur. Bauman: And how about the most rewarding aspect of working at Hanford, what was it? Hungate: Oh, I think we had a great group of people to work with. And I think the association with minds and people that were similarly involved was in my opinion, just wonderful, quite great. I had the great opportunity of being asked to spend a year in Greece as a consultant to the Greek Atomic Energy Program. And that was--let's see. That happened in--was still with GE at the time. So that would have been in the late 50s. And the family and I—there were a number of us. Spent a year in England, various places. I think one of--Jack Cline spent a year in Tunisia. One of my biology--Bob Euler spent a year in England. So there was quite a lot of worldwide exchange. And one of the features that I look back on that I don't remember--I think we had about five or six groups in biology--and when we would have an annual research get together, an international get together, and be hosts here, then our group--all our heads would get together with Harry Kornberg and whatnot, and host these. And we would have these people come to our home. And I remember one occasion when Harry Kornberg was hosting. And he had a big barbecue pit behind his house, and somehow or other, a little over hot, hot. And he was having these chickens on--with huge flames coming. [LAUGHTER] It was somewhat seared. But as a group, we just worked together to make these nice occasions. And I had a couple of acres over in Kennewick, and I had planted pie cherry trees, because when teaching at Reed, Reed had some pie cherry trees. And they had you pick, so you could go and pick. And I thought that was so great, so when I had this acreage, I planted about, as I recall, something of the order—30 or 40 pie cherries, and the same number of peaches. And so I produced the pie cherry. I discovered that you could not allow people to pick peaches, because the branches were much too brittle. They'd break the branches off when they'd reach. Pie cherries are much tougher, and you could allow you pick. Anyhow—and I had all--quite a little excess fruit which I then began to ferment and make into wine. And on one occasion, we were having a group over to our house for the dinner and evening, and I was serving wine. And it was in the fall. And I looked around, and practically everybody's glass had at least three or four drosophila. You know, these fruit flies had settled in their glass of wine. [LAUGHTER] So it's just one of the things that happens, particularly when you have a lot of fruit around. So anyhow, these sort of personal reactions were very, very gratifying. Bauman: I just want to go back a bit and clarify, so what building did you work out of initially? Where were you located? Hungate: 100-F. And I forget the number of the building. That brings up another idea. When I was in charge of a cesium irradiator. And it was a big tub of lead, and had six tubes. And the cesium was stored down in this big tub of lead for shielding, so you could access without having exposure. And then you would have these pellets of cesium raised up into tubes that you could adjust to different sizes and spread. And you'd close a big door this thick of concrete, to provide shielding. And then irradiate. That's where I had to rad my wife's potatoes. And we, at one stage, became involved with a group over in Seattle who was interested in the same kind of thing that we got in with the blood irradiator, providing sterile food to the people who had the bone marrow transplants. So they wouldn't become infected with something that they couldn't fight off because they were being compromised in their immune reaction. And so we had, I'd say two or three years, where we were working with the head of food to irradiation over there, Fae Dong, and her students, looking at ways of producing in that case, primarily dairy products. And we examined the radiation of ice cream and things you can't sterilize really, any other way. And a lot of them were just great. It turned out that milk and some of the milk products, develop what's called the Wet Dog Syndrome. You know the odor of a wet dog? Well, this food developed that kind of odor. But we were irradiating with massive amounts. Somewhere on the order of 5 million rads to get it totally sterile. These are the same kinds of treatments that the astronauts--the kind of food that the astronauts had--they were treated with similar kinds of doses—very massive. And I also used the irradiator as a service unit for various people in the industries. I know I irradiated some soil samples for folks up in the Forest Service in Idaho. And there was a private guy who was developing high yield mint. Mint used to be a big crop around in this area. He was from Corvallis. And maybe two or three times a year, he would bring me slips of mint, and then I'd put them around this irradiator and irradiate them. And the reason you're doing that is you're creating mutations. Then he would take them and plant them, and then select those that produce the higher amounts of mint oil. And I think we were quite successful in improving the rate of mint production by his process of selection. We did a number of—I was working with another man over in Pullman. He was interested in irradiating beans, as I recall. And in talking with him later, he said that, you know, those beans that you irradiated, they cooked in about half the time that it normally would take to cook. Well, that makes good sense, because ionizing radiation breaks long bonds. And that's basically what happens with cooking. So you're pre-cooking your beans with irradiation. [LAUGHTER] And as far as flavor is concerned--oh yeah, mentioning flavor. We were also working with a group—I don't remember which one of the big canning corporations—and they were bringing in corn. And we irradiated corn with massive amounts of radiation. Sterilizing amounts. And then we would take the irradiated and the non-irradiated around, and have the folks around the lab taste them. And I was very interested because when we did this, the preference on the average, was they preferred the irradiated corn over the normal corn, unirradiated corn. The flavor was enhanced by the irradiation. Bauman: Interesting. Wow. Hungate: Yeah. That's one thing that I think we've really missed the boat. I think we should be using nuclear power more, much more. And I think we should be using irradiation much more. And you’d never know until you get into using something, what are the things that are positive versus those that are negative. And it's just a process of experimenting. And one reason I became convinced in that was that corn experiment we did. Where people were actually preferred the irradiated over the non-irradiated. I wouldn't have believed it until we did it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: You mentioned earlier when we were talking about chemicals being used on foods versus irradiated foods. So why do you think that that has been that we haven't done more of that irradiated foods, or used chemicals more than radiation? Hungate: The press has chosen to make irradiation a very bad thing, whether it's for generating power or whatever. And my wife commented that had we been introduced--had the public been introduced to electricity with the electric chair, their attitude toward electricity might be quite different than it is. The US public was introduced to radiation with a nuclear bomb. They knew basically nothing about it. In fact, I remember going in to shoe stores and sticking my foot into an irradiator to see how my foot fit in the shoe. You thought nothing about it. And I think her comparison was quite apt. It gave the press the pressure to be a negative thing about radiation. Bauman: Well— Hungate: And also, so few people have the opportunity of working with it like I did. To realize that it's just there, and you just treat it with respect. And I guess also, I am—and there is some literature to back this up—I have for a long time felt that a small amount of radiation is a very positive thing. The literature that I refer to is some studies that were made in the spas, these hot springs in Europe, where people went in and sat in these caves or whatever. Those were high radiation situations. And the studies that I am talking about looked at those people who worked in these facilities, where there were periods of eight or 12 or whatever hours, compared to a comparable number in the town—comparable people in a town who did not work there. And they found that the average health and longevity was better among those who worked in those facilities than in those that did not. And I remember my uncle and aunt used to go over to Montana and go down in a mine and sit in a radiation exposure mine. And so I think that furthermore, all life has evolved in much higher radiation environment than we now have. By the nature of radiation, the earth is gradually losing its radiation, because it's decaying. And so we literally are losing the radiation to which we have grown up with and evolved with. So personally, I think a low level radiation is a positive thing. That's contrary to the current philosophy. Bauman: Let me ask you one more question. That is, I teach a course on the Cold War. My students are all too young to remember the Cold War. [LAUGHTER] Hungate: The Cold War? Yes. Bauman: Why do you think it's important for people to learn about Hanford and some of the work that was done there? Hungate: Well, I guess my feeling is that, as I said earlier, few people have had the opportunity of working with radiation. And the more you know about people who have worked with it, and—for instance, myself. I'm 96, and I've been working with radiation a long—major part of my life. And I think it's essential that people learn more about everything. For instance, very few people realize that the radiation put out from burning coal is more than you get from a nuclear plant. That does not make me a person who is interested in more coal to get more radiation, despite my comments. [LAUGHTER] But I just think we need to know more about our history and things that we don't get in touch with on many occasions. It's like everybody's interested in Cousteau because he's in an environment that we really aren't able to get into. It's that kind of attitude. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your stories about all the work you did. I really appreciate it. Hungate: It's my pleasure. Bauman: Thanks very much. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:14:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 256 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100-F Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1952-1982 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Cline, Jack Euler, Bob Kornberg, Harry Dong, Fae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Hungate Description An account of the resource An interview with Frank Hungate conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-8-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 100-F Area General Electric Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fae6130413e7ae36fc7c5f101e7fedd21.jpg 3cdc68a43f498b02735ccaa53fca9a14 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb4456284af8e319cb2f34ebdbb560d45.mp4 685af0ac7d3745bdad5ec2359f14e49f Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ray Deranleau Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Northwest Public Television | D_Henry_Raymond </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Robert Bauman: Okay. Well, we'll go ahead and get started. And I'm going to start by having you say your name, and spell it for us, please. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Ray Deranleau: Ray De-- are you ready? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Ray Deranleau, D-E-R-A-N-L-E-A-U, R-A-Y on the first name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Great, thank you. And today's date is September 3rd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you talk about your family--how they came, how, when, why they came to the area here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, my folks come here in 1930. And at that time, there was just six kids left in the house. The three older ones had grown up. And they more or less, I think, starved out--they were up at Genesee, Idaho. And the price of wheat wasn't anything, and they just kind of went broke up there. They moved down here, and, of course, we farmed down here, but that was altogether different. Dad had been a dry land farmer, but he had to learn the irrigation thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know how he heard about Richland, or any of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I think he just put the place up for sale and the real estate person, Carl Williams, who was in Kennewick for a long time, handled it. I know that. And I suppose that's how it happened. I was about--I was six--or, five when we moved here. So, a lot of that up there, I don't recall even. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And what were your parents' names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Henry and Elizabeth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And so where was your farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, it was right across the ditch from where Battelle is, headed west. It was across that ditch. And if you are familiar with that, there was an old school—Vale School, up there at one time. And Dad had 33 acres, and that seven acres was out of that original 40. So we were right adjacent to that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Okay. Who were some of your neighbors, or people who lived closest to you, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, Pete Hansen lived right next to us. And then, across the ditch, was Hultgrenn. Were the two closest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And so what sort of crops did you grow on the far? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had--towards the last, we had a little mint--peppermint. And we had quite a few grapes, but most folks didn't raise grapes like Dad did. And, of course, we had hay and asparagus, and strawberries. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And growing up on the farm, did you have particular chores or responsibilities that were yours? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Hell yeah. We milked cows, and just all the stuff that went with it. Cut asparagus. We'd get up as soon as you could see to cut asparagus in the spring. That was always a cash crop that made a little money for everybody that--and of course, it was early. It'd give them a chance to have some money to pay the water bill, and stuff like that. So that was a good crop then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know where the crops were sold? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they were sold mostly at Kennewick. And some things at Pasco, but mostly at Kennewick. Ours was, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I want to ask you also, about your farm, were there other buildings besides the house itself on the property? What other buildings were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, yeah, we had a barn, and a little shed that, I suppose at one time, had been kind of an open end garage type thing. But most of that stuff was so worn out that you could throw a cat through it somewhere. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So when you bought the place, it was something that someone else had already owned? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: There was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Someone else had already owned the place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No, Dad got that place from the ditch company. And he just moved on there for no payment at all. And of course, the reasoning behind that was if they had people farming, they were buying their water. So they were better off just to let you set on there. And of course, eventually, he paid for it. But that's when they moved on that thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: And it was awful run down, to begin with. Whoever was on there ahead of us didn't do much farming. They just-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know how old the place was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It had been there for a while? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, it was older than I was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And what about electricity? Did you have electricity there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] We got electricity there. And at that time that, PP&L was in here, which was Pacific Power and Light. And they wouldn't give you electricity until the ERA came in, and then they were right there to give you some, if they could. But they had to run a line in from Stevens, you know, where I live, there. And that was probably, what, a block and a half maybe. But anyway--and then they went to our neighbors. And we had to buy electric stoves. And I suppose--I know we bought them from them, and I don't know if we had to or not. And just a deal where you pay a nickel down, pay the rest your life, type thing. And I suppose they got a dang good shafting on the price of that stove. I don't know that, but common sense tells me that. But that's the way electricity was then. And like I said, boy, they weren't very helpful until the ERA came in, and made all the difference in the world. REA, I guess it is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: REA, right. And did that happen sometime after you arrived, the REA? Probably, yeah-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. Roosevelt, I think, went in in, what, in '32? And so we went there in '30. And we moved on to that place, I would say, in '35. And I could be off a year or two. It was the second place where we first lived. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Okay, so where did you live before that, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: We lived just off of Van Giesen, and right in there close to where that little shoplifting center is, there on Van Giesen. If you know much about the history of this place, there was a house there, and they called it Officer's--Officer's something. And I can't say the word I want to. But anyway, it was a big, nice house, and they had left that for quite a while before they ever tore it down. I think they moved it to West Richland eventually. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So that's where you lived initially, and then you moved to the place-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So that's where you lived for about five years? '30, '35, and then you moved to the second place? Okay. And what about telephone? Did you have a telephone? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. We had a telephone. My dad was on the ditch board--the water board. There were three other people around there. And then they had a guy running it. In fact, Fletcher--his dad run that. And he had to have a telephone because of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I suppose we wouldn't have had a telephone as quick as we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was that a party line, sort of? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, yeah. Yeah, then about that time, too, we switched over from horses to a tractor. So that was kind of a change in farming for us a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So initially you had horses for all the work on the farm? Do you remember what kind of tractor you got? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, we had an F-12, Farmall tractor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So what about the town of Richland itself? What do you remember about the town during the 1930s? Any businesses, or things that you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, there was a couple of grocery stores, and a couple of gas stations. You could buy little candy bars, and stuff like that at those gas stations. And there was a hardware--good hardware store. And I probably missed some of them, but there wasn't much here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did you have a radio, or--how did you get news? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had a radio. It worked part of the time. [LAUGHTER] One of those deals where everybody had his damn ear down into the--trying to hear it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you remember listening to any shows, or anything in particular on the radio when you were growing up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh yeah, we used to listen to Jimmy Allen. And of course, Dad listened to the news. So we'd listen to that, too. But Jimmy Allen, and, oh, Amos and Andy. We'd listen to that. And I don't remember what else. Not much, we didn't listen to it a lot. It wasn't very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: What about newspaper? Was there a newspaper? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, we always had the Spokesman Review. There wasn't any local papers at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I want to ask you about school. What school did you go to? And do you have any specific memories about school, teachers or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had a pretty good little school, if we'd have tried to learn something. And some of us wasn't too interested in that, to be real frank with you. And I was one of them--hell, I thought I knew everything there was to know at 15. But really, we didn't have a bad school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How did you get to school? Was there a bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, went on a school bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was that a sort of regular school bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was? Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, they had certain routes. There were about--I would say maybe five of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Were there any teachers that you particularly remember from your years of school in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, no, not really. We had some good ones and some bad ones. But I don't like to badmouth some of them. And especially the kind of student I was. If I'd have had me, I'd have killed me. Just to be real frank with you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: What's a recreational activities? What did you do for fun growing up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we played ball, and we fished, and just kind of entertained ourselves. We worked a lot, really. When kids were old enough to work--and if you had any spare time, Dad would go out and buy another 20 acres, just about what it boiled to with those old guys. You know, if they had boys especially, they were out looking for more land. [LAUGHTER] Which was a way of life at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you remember any community events? Any-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we used to go to grange meetings. And they'd have two a month. And one of them would be a social thing, and at that one, they'd serve a little sandwich and coffee, and they'd have dances. You'd just volunteer a band, so that was pretty neat. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Where were the grange meetings held? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: The Grange Hall was right up where the Lutheran church is, here in Richland, on Van Giesen--or, yeah, Van Giesen and Stevens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So I assume your father was a member of the grange. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was he part of any other organizations? You mentioned the irrigation, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No, not really. We went to church when we had gas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: What church did you go to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Catholic. And we'd have to go to Kennewick for that. There wasn't any Catholic church here. In fact, there was one church, and I think they called it Community Methodist. And pretty near all the protestants would go there. And maybe they'd have a Methodist preacher for a while, and if he starved out, the next one could be Lutheran, or whatever, you know. You just kind of, in those days, did with what you had. And they pretty much had a Seventh Day Adventist little church there, too. There wasn't many members, but they would have meetings there, on Saturday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Were there a number of families that went to the Catholic church in Kennewick from Richland, who lived there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, I don't think there was a half a dozen. Maybe something like that. Of course, them Catholics, in those days, had lots of kids, and more kids than the rest of them. So we could kind of outnumber them. We didn't need--if we had families, we had groups. [LAUGHTER] We had one Catholic bunch, lived out there on the river. And I think they had 17 or 19 kids, somebody said. And in those days, it wasn't unusual for children to die at childbirth. And they had some where they'd lose one--they'd just name another one the same name. And I always thought that was kind of weird, but I know they did that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: You mentioned playing ball growing up. Did you play sports in school at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we played softball. We didn't have any football--we didn't have a football team. We didn't have any material for it. And we didn't play baseball, either. They had a local baseball team--we'd call it a town team. And everybody, whoever wanted to--and then they had some pretty decent players on that darn thing, for those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How about basketball? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we had a high school basketball team. And that was the size of that. I don't remember anybody other than just--well, maybe in grade school or middle school, you could play around then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So you arrived here in about 1930— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: --the years of the Great Depression. Wondering ways in which the Depression sort of impacted people here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, we were poor as church mice, you know. But everybody else was the same way. Hell, when I went in the service in '43, I had better conditions in the service than I had at home. And like I said, everybody was poor, so I thought that's the way everybody was. And they were, around here--most of them, some of them were better off than others, naturally. But it was pretty hard times for everybody. We didn't ever--went hungry, or anything like that. I don't mean to imply that. But, boy, we worked from the time were about 11 and 12 in the fields. And after we got a little older, we could hire out, if we got a chance. We'd get enough money for our school clothes that way. And it didn't take much--of course, we didn't get much either. You'd get maybe two bits an hour, you know. And boy, I'll tell you--that was work in those days, too. Picking up potatoes, and things like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I want to go back to school. So what year did you graduate high school, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: '42. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And how many people were in your class? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I think there was just eight of us, or maybe a dozen. I don't know, they got to--I think Edith maybe brought you that picture of that group. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Yeah, small group. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: And some of us--I remember, one old teacher that--he was always talking about our sheepskins, when we graduated. And I said something about my sheepskin one day. And he said, yours won't have any fleece on it. [LAUGHTER] Oh, gosh. I think about that school--what a waste of my time and theirs. It was all my fault, I'm not blaming anybody but myself. But it was a fact. It was just stupid that I didn't want to learn more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And you mentioned you joined the service in '43? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah, right after they--as soon as they got the notice here, I started. I had two brothers in the service at the time. And there were four of us in there, before it was over with. And everybody was in the service. And I just felt like I should be in, and I didn't have the guts to leave. And dad wasn't any spring chicken. So I hated to leave before—But once they got rid of that farm-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So tell me about when you notice from the government about needing to leave. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, we got we got notice from the government on March 3, and they just told us that our place-- condemned our places, and was taking them. And we got our notice a little bit before noon, in the mail. And I was plowing a field out there. And I came in for lunch, and they were, of course, telling me about it. And after I ate, I went back out and cranked up that tractor. And I bet I hadn't been plowing an hour and a half, and somebody called up there, and told them to get that tractor out of that field. I don't know who called, or any more about it than--the deal was you couldn't find out anything. And looking back, you understand why. But you sure didn't in those days. And then, the bad thing about that--it put all those farmers on the market for a new place, and immediately the land went up. And they weren't offering a lot. And a lot of the people didn't accept--they sued for it. And they did better. And Mr. Fletcher--Robert's dad--was involved in that. And, of course, there was an attorney that they had naturally--or, normally up there. And he handled the case--Lionel Powell, from Kennewick, who was an attorney. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How did your parents respond to the letter? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, confused--everybody was. I guess they just finally told us that it was a government thing, and it was a secret. And they wouldn't--couldn't tell us, and they kind of accepted that. But first, they just were going to run you out of there, without any kind of explanation at all. And we never did get--it was world news when we found out that Richland was part of the atomic bomb thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So what happened with your parents, then? They sold the land-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they settled in Kennewick, and Dad bought a couple little places there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: How long were they given to leave? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, boy. They extended the time to get off of there. I think probably it was fall before the folks left. And then, a lot of those crops, they had the prisoner of war camp, out on the Yakima there. And they had those prisoners in there, taking care of some of those crops. Because I remember a couple of them working up there in the grapes at our place. And one of them asked the other one why he was in the slammer. And he said he was a letter writer. Anyway, he forged checks. [LAUGHTER] He said he was a letter writer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was that camp--that camp was in existence for a while, before '43, there? The prisoner of war camp? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: It was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was there before '43? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: I don't know. I don't think so. I think they put it up, but boy, they had people. They just put something like that up overnight. I'll bet it didn't take them two weeks to put the dang thing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And you said your parents then bought a place in Kennewick? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: A farm, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they bought a little place down on the corner of 19th and Washington. There was a credit union there for a while, and they're gone from there. I don't know what's in there now. But industry's moved that far down in there. And of course, that was all farming. That was one thing about the farms, too, in Richland. So many of them--now, we were up on just sagebrush bordered us. There was always land there, available, if you had the time to get it. In fact, Dad would--he'd water some of that--was watering some of those. He'd put in rye grass, because it'd stand the wind. It was hearty, you know? And he'd water. And he was figuring on getting two or three years of rye grass in that, to hold that sand a little bit, and then buying that. And it was things like that that they'd do. And they were pretty loose with--the ditch company, as long as they had water, they'd let them do things like that. But the ditch company owned a lot of Richland. I thought back a lot of times, and wondered, between the Federal Land Bank and the ditch company, what percentage of these little areas--and we weren't unique on that. All you had to do was go down the road to the next one--it was the same thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: You talk about irrigation. How did the irrigation system work? I mean, what sort of irrigation pipes-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: It was all real irrigation--ditches. Little ditches. We never heard of a sprinkler system, at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Was there cement pipes, at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, well, yeah. Some of it was open ditch, and some of it was pipes. And some of it was even what they call continuous pipe. And I had never seen them make that. But the inside out of it--there wasn't any joints, and they had something they'd drag through the middle of it, put the cement around it, and then pull that. That's how they had to do. I never seen them do it. It wasn't very good. It wasn't as good as a good concrete pipe. And, of course, people, as they could, they were improving on that kind of stuff. Getting rid of that kind of junk, and putting in better. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So do you remember what your, or your parents', feelings were about--were you upset about having to move off the land? Angry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, they were all probably angry, and confused, more than angry, I think. Because just imagine--getting a letter that you--and on those farms, it was--every month of the year, there was something to do. In winter, you had more cows to milk, and stuff like that. So it wasn't where you had a lot of time off, or anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So do you remember where you were when you heard about what was happening at the Hanford site? About what was being built, and used for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No, I really don't. I was in Europe, and I come home--and they gave us a 30 day furlough. And we'd seen just enough combat that we'd been good candidates for over in Japan. And I think that was what they were figuring on. But anyway, I was on a train going back to South Carolina, where I had to report back to. And we were up in Montana, and the conductor come through there, and told us that they had dropped those bombs, and that the war was over. And I think that's the first time I ever knew what Hanford really did--as near as I remember, at least. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you remember your response when he came through and told you this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: [LAUGHTER] Well, I hate to sound like an idiot, but we were playing poker--a bunch of us--and we were more interested in the poker game. And--it was almost disbelief, I think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: And so how much longer were you in the service, then? When did you come back to the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, after that, I would say I was in the service five, six months. And we moved around a lot. I was in a chemical warfare outfit. It was a mortar outfit. We had big mortars, and were designed to shoot gas, if we had to. That's why we were in the chemical end of it. But we also had high explosives that we shot. And we would be attached to the infantry. But I don't know really how long we was. Here again, I went back to--I was in 89th Chemical. And when I got back to Colorado, I went over to where it was supposed to be, and--nothing there. So I saw another chemical outfit, right next door--90th. So I went over there. And I happened to walk right into the same company that I'd been assigned to. We'd all been assigned to that, and we didn't even know it. And I'll never forget the First Sergeant in there. He told me where to go, what barracks I could bunk in. So I went up to that barracks, and it was full. And I came back, and I said, that barracks is full, up there, I said. He said, go up and throw one of those guys out of there, and get a bunk. And I said, you go up and throw him out. [LAUGHTER] And that guy took a liking to me. And he was the biggest horse's neck ever to come down the pike. He was a hobo that had found it in the Army, and he was re-enlisted. But he was kind of a weird booger. But anyway, he took a liking to me. And hell, I could just get away with anything after that. It was kind of weird. Some of the guys used to razz me about being his buddy. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, we were doing a lot of moving around. They were just shifting everybody. We went down through Texas, and they brought us up to San Francisco for Army Day Parade. We looped around on those damn hills down there a lot. My wife told me I wasn't supposed to cuss, too, didn't she? But anyway, we were moving around a lot, and then finally ended up at Fort Lewis, where they booted us out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you know, after your parents left the farm, do you know if it was torn down right away? Or did the government use it for anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, ours was, I'm sure, because it was just a shack. And most of them were like that. And it was just the better houses that they kept for folks--like that one I was telling you, Officer's Club is what they called that house over there, where we first lived. And houses like that, they kept them around to put people in. But boy, I'll tell you, some of those houses around here, you could throw a cat through the wall of them--they didn't amount to much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Do you have--are there any memories of growing up in Richland that really stand out to you? Any sort of humorous events, or things that you remember from growing up here, that really stand out to you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Oh, boy. Well, [LAUGHTER] I remember one time, a bunch of us went up to Brown's island. And that's about maybe eight, nine miles up the Colombia from here. And, of course, in those days, all those dams weren't in there and that was free water. And if you knew where to go, you could wade over to that in the summer. And if you didn't, you'd have to swim a little. But a bunch of us went up there. Anyway, we camped up there for pretty near a week. And we just hunted and fished, and loafed around there. But anyway, there was a little shack on this side of the river. And we'd come back, and I don't know whether we were getting ready to leave, or just that morning, we were maybe going to hunt rabbits or something. But we all had .22s. And one of those kids shot up into the corner of that damn thing, towards the ceiling. And that bullet--we tracked it afterwards, and it went down the ridgepole of that little shack, just probably that far. And hit a nail, and it dropped down on one of the kids' neck. Now, it just dropped, I think. But anyway, it burned his neck, and it just rolled off, you know. And I remember, he said, I'm shot! [LAUGHTER] We didn't pay any attention to him. And he said, I'm shot, you damn fools! [LAUGHTER] It just boiled down that that had just rolled there, but just a strange thing. It hit a knot, to begin with, and turned and went right up that ridgepole about two inches. And then, by that time, that little .22 was spent. But anyway [LAUGHTER] he was pretty excited, because he thought he was killed, and we didn't pay any attention to him. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: I'm wondering, anything you--or, what do you think would be important for people to know about what it was like growing up in a small community of Richland in the 1930s, 1940s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Well, really, it was pretty good, because everybody knew everybody. And everybody associated with one another. There wasn't anybody that was left out, really. And like I said, we were all poor as church mice, but we thought that was the way the whole world was. And like I said, I don't think there were any of us around that went hungry. I really don't. Folks would can, and they canned everything. I remember one year, I had three sisters that were going to get married in the fall. And those girls and mom canned for their families to be, and our family. And they would can in those old wash boilers. And I don't know if you've ever seen that done, but what they'd do is put a little rack in the bottom that was made out of cedar. And it had holes bored about like that, so that the water could circulate through it. But those jars wouldn't sit right on where it was so ungodly hot. And they put those in there, and then boil them for a couple hours to seal those—but they’d put up even meat, my folks did. And mom, even, would can butter a time or two. Now, she didn't heat it, you know--she'd put it in salt water, and put it in those jars. And then, we'd open that when, I guess, when we didn't have butter otherwise. I don't really know. I think she just did that one year. But they'd put up all kinds of vegetables and fruit. And everybody had some of that, and you'd trade around. Or if people had surplus, they'd just give it to you. There was a lot of that, because-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was a way to preserve things for-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: It was a ways to preserve things-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. And folks would also put up pork. And put so much salt you couldn't eat it hardly, and you'd have to soak it for a week before you could get close enough to it to eat it. [LAUGHTER] But we always--Dad would kill a steer in the fall. And we'd give some of that, probably, to the kids. Maybe they'd kill one later, and we'd get part of that, and stuff like that. Or neighbors-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: So it was very much a community, everyone-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: --sort of shared, and worked together. Well, any other things that we haven't talked about yet, that you remember, or that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today, and for sharing your memories and experiences. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Bauman: Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX23414750"> Deranleau: You betcha. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1930-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano) 1882-1945 Williams, Carl Hanson, Pete Powell, Lionel Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:37:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 252 Kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ray Deranleau Description An account of the resource An interview with Ray Deranleau conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/3/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-25: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash) Richland (Wash.)--Politics and government. Fishing Kennewick (Wash.) Pacific Power and Light Company Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4cdcadac41f6f67ab96b3d3139e0d7c9.jpg 528032f0f87e04a27c86a919beaffebe https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc1a50427e4983bc9810e7a2e0bc13041.mp4 81ff44062a749499e4b1d1f725603330 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mildred Balderston Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Northwest Public Television | Balderston_Mildred </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Robert Bauman: So let's maybe go back. So he was saying we didn't quite get the first couple minutes of our conversation. So if you could just, again, talk about what brought you to Hanford, where you were, and talk about your background, coming from Kansas, and so forth. Mildred Balderston: Well, I was working at the Remington Arms when I got a call from Hanford for people to come up there, when they were laid off at the Remington Arms. Bauman: So Remington Arms was in Denver? Balderston: Denver. And I knew that I was going to get laid off, because they were laying off all these people and just keeping a certain amount. And so I said to my boss, I would like to go to Hanford. He said, that's not a place for you. Just kind of like that, you know. And I thought, okay. It wasn't time for me to leave yet, so I was still there. So a few days later, I said, you know what? I would kind of like to go to Hanford. He said, that is not a place for you. So I thought, well, how am I going to get around this? What am I going to say? So I finally said to him again, you know, I would really like to go to Hanford. [LAUGHTER] I guess he was tired to that. So he said okay. Bauman: And how did you--going back a little farther--so how did you get the job at Remington Arms? Balderston: Oh, you put in an application. See, I knew they were coming to town, and they were hiring. And so I put in my application, and I got the job. Bauman: You had already moved from Kansas to Denver before that. Balderston: Pardon me? Bauman: You had already moved from Kansas to Denver before that? Balderston: I lived in Kansas before I went to Denver, and then when I went to Denver, I got this job, and then I started going to business school, so I could get a better job. And so then I worked in this, I think it was an insurance office, for about a year. And then I put my application in at Remington Arms, and I got hired there, so I quit the dental job. And they had a dormitory for us, and I said, well, I wanted to go to the hotel one night. So they had the Desert Inn. That was our first hotel thing or whatever you want to call it. So I went to that for one night, and then I went to the dormitory. And I lived in the dormitory for probably a year or a little better. And then they were reducing people here, so they made up a single girl's contract to rent a house. So we rented a house. There were several of us in the dorm that lived right in a certain vicinity. So we decided, well, we'll take a house. We got a house, and I think there were four of us to start with in that house. It was a three-bedroom. Then in about a year, one of the girls got married and left. So, we got another one in there. We kept adding to. We got another one in there, and then a year or so beyond that, another girl got married and left. We must have had three of them, because then I went home on vacation. And I had a sister who was a schoolteacher there, and she was kind of disgruntled with her school teaching. And so she wanted to do something different. I said, why don't you go up to Hanford with me? So she got rid of her contract. Just chop-chop. It wasn't any big deal. And she packed, and we came back up after my vacation. I think she made the third of us then, and then we had one more that we had to get. After the fourth one left--no, I guess it would only be the third one, because I was still there--I had four sisters, so as they graduated from school, they started coming up. So finally, we had them all up here, and so I didn't have anyone else in there, which was kind of nice. They got jobs here, and they stayed. And then, well, just one at a time they came, because they graduated—when they graduated, they came up. And so one went away to school, and one found a boyfriend, and she got married, and so she left. So there was just the two of us, and my folks lived in Kansas, of course. And of course, they decided, well, they'll move out here. Well, we asked them, why don't you come out? The rest of the family's here, so come on. So we went back and brought them out. But we couldn't rent a house in Richland. So we had to go to Kennewick. We bought a house there, and then my dad went to work. And that was kind of it. My sister and myself and my mother and my father, and so as time goes on, my father wasn't in good condition. As time went on, he wasn't able to work. And so I think he had a--I was going to say a stroke, but I'm not sure that that was it. And he was in the hospital for a while, and the doctor told them that he would only live five years. Well, he hung on to that five years for five years, and at the end of five years, he knew he was going to die, which he did. But the interesting part about this is he had worked with some people who sell houses and other stuff. And he had made friends with other people. So he goes around to each of these people just before he passed away to say goodbye, which amazed me. I just didn't realize that you do those kind of things. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, he did this. So then that left just my mother and my sister and myself. We had moved to a bigger house, which was kind of nice at the time, and besides, the one that we bought first had a basement. And we were afraid that the folks might fall downstairs, and we wouldn't be home, because we were working. So we moved to this house, a one story house. And so we lived there, and then my mother had problems. And so we decided we needed someone to take care of her. Now do you want all this kind of stuff? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: This is fine, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, if you don't want this kind of stuff, let's go on something different. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Okay. Well, I just wanted to ask you about the house she lived in in Richland, that first house. Where was that house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: That was on Sanford Street. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: It was a--what were those things we had? It was a-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Was it one of the alphabet homes or prefab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Similar to a prefab, but I don't think that's what it was called at that time. Perhaps it'll come to me sometime close here, and I can back up a bit and tell you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Well, then I also want ask you about your job when you first came out Hanford. What sort of job was it, and where in Hanford were you working? What area were you working in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, when I first came up here, I went out to the 300 Area, I think, for a day. And then a job opened up in Richland, and I went in for an interview, and I took the interview—I mean, I took the job. So then I came back to town, and was there for a number of years. And then I moved around to other people that had job openings. So I kind of went up the ladder a little bit. And I enjoyed all of them. But while I was in the 300 Area, an interesting thing happened. I was taking dictation, and this man had the door kind of closed a little bit, because we weren't allowed to talk about anything when I first came. And so he was dictating, and he said a word that I--it was associated with a plant, but I didn't recognize the word. And so I repeated it, so I'd be sure and get it down right. My goodness, he ran to the door, and he looked out. Oh, we don't say that word out loud. So I thought, well, that probably takes care of my job. I won't have a job. But that didn't—I didn't lose it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Do you remember what the word was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: I've tried to think of what that word was. I've tried and tried and tried to think what that word was, but it didn't come. It hasn't come to me yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So when you first came to Hanford, did you know what sort of work was being done at Hanford, what Hanford was being built for, or what was happening out here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: What is it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Did you know what was being done at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Oh, no. It wasn't talked about. We just knew that there was a job at Hanford, and you go out there and do your part. Well, I didn't know for a long time what it was, even when I was out here, because you just didn't talk about those things. You run to the door to see if anyone had heard you. So no. I enjoyed it. I had good bosses; I had good jobs. I really couldn't have asked for anything better. I had worked in an insurance office in Denver, and then I had gone to the Remington Arms, and so I had that experience. But it was a good place to get an experience. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Do you remember what your first impressions were of Richland and the area here when you first arrived, what you thought of the place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, we came in to Pasco on the train, and that was the dirtiest place I have ever seen. It was just awful. And I thought, oh, I hope Richland isn't like this. So anyway, they hadn’t gotten started working on Pasco by then. And when I got to Richland, everything was kind of in the new stage because of all the new houses, all the new equipment that was available. So Richland was a different story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And so when did you arrive then? Around what time period did you arrive in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: I think it was the 14th of August in 19--probably '43. I think it was '43. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And what were the dorms like? You mentioned that you lived in the dorm initially. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Oh, they were very nice. And then that building next to the building downtown in Richland. What's the name of that building? That brick building—that brick building that they built. And the post office was in one end of it. Well, right across the street was a cafeteria, and that's where we had to eat. And our dorms, the women's dorms were in that same area. The men's dorms were on the other side of Swift, I guess it is. But then we went to this house that they made for the single girls. And we did our own cooking, so we didn't have to go there. But those places can get kind of old after a few meals there. And so we were glad to do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: What sorts of things were there in the area for entertainment in Richland? Were there movie theaters at all or any places to go like that for entertainment? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: I can't remember of any entertainment. I'm sure there must have been something there they could've done, besides the television. Oh, I think there was some--the high schools had ball, and so I think some of them went to that. And I don't think there was a fat lot of anything there, because we were so busy working. By the time you went to the area, and by the time we would get back, the day was far spent. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So when you worked at the 300 Area or some of the other places out on the site, did you take a bus out there? Is that how you got out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: What was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: When you worked out at the 300 Area or some of the other places on site, did you take a bus there? Did you have to take a bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Oh, yeah. We'd take a bus from where we lived out to the 300 Area. Well, no. We would take it out to the bus depot, and then you'd take a bus from there. So yeah, we took a bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And you mentioned, talked a little bit about the secrecy—you couldn't say certain things or talk about what was going on or what your work. So do you remember when you found out that there were—what was being made at Hanford? Was it the end of the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: You know, I'm not sure. I can't remember when I found out about that. The thing is, knowing that we weren't supposed to know, it wasn't that important. So we didn't go around asking people, what are we doing? Just go ahead and do it. So I don't know. I can't remember when--it seems like there was a war or something, or people were going to war or something that it came out. But I wouldn't say, because I can't remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So you said you started working in August of 1943, about? How long did you work at Hanford then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: 46 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Long time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So when you initially came, were you working for DuPont? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And then did you work for some of the other companies that came later--GE and some of the other companies? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Yeah, and I worked for—I can't think of that name either. I worked for DuPont. I worked for GE. I worked for—it was a telephone company, I think. It had the name of that, and then there were several others. So I wasn't just with one, but I just kind of went from one to the next you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Right. So, 46 years, that's a long time. You must have seen a lot of changes take place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: A lot of changes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: What are some of the changes that you saw--ways the community changed, or Hanford itself changed? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, actually, they really weren't changes to me. It just seems like we just moved from one thing to the next. And so it wasn't a change; it was just part of the show. So I didn't really realize that there were changes. I guess if I would've taken time to think about it, I would've thought, well, we changed from this to that. It just didn't dawn on me. I just worked, because I had a job, and whatever they told me to do, well, that was what I did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And you mentioned that your sisters came out here and worked also. Did they have similar sorts of jobs and work similar places that you worked? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Yeah, they all worked out like at the site or someplace. And my sister that came out with me that was a teacher, she got a job at the—I think it was at the—it escapes me. But anyway, she eventually got a job to go to work for the company, and she was with Battelle for many years and had a good job there. And she really enjoyed it. I guess it was different from school teaching maybe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And did you say your father, also, after your parents moved here, he worked at Hanford for a little while also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, he didn't work at Hanford. He worked at one of the schools as a janitor. He had kind of done his thing, but he had to be busy, and so there was an opening, and so he went as a janitor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: So overall, how would you describe your 46 years working at Hanford? Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, I enjoyed it. I didn't go home grumbling or anything. I really enjoyed my time there. And the bosses I had were all really good, and it was a good experience. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: I did want to ask you about one other thing. President Kennedy came out to Hanford in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. Do you remember that at all? Were you here? Do you remember him coming at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Vaguely. I kind of remember that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: And do you remember if you went to see him speak at all, or you don't remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: No, because of the different areas. They didn't cover all of them, and so we didn't--some did, but a lot didn't get in on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about your years working at Hanford that you want to share or that it's important to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Balderston: Well, my last bout was 13 years in the 300 Area. That was my last--that's the last place I worked. So no, I was just kind of same old, same old. And so I only worked in the 300 Area and Richland. I didn't go any farther out, so now my sisters--I had two sisters that worked in the area, and they thought they had a hilarious time riding the bus and meeting all these people. So they had a great time. It wasn't something that we just took because there was nothing else to take. So yeah, they had a great time. And so I guess nothing was lost with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX220491560"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your story with us and letting me ask you questions. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:25:25 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1943-1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mildred Balderston Description An account of the resource An interview with Mildred Balderston as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-20: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5a7f0be5bf62e7a272f5cf9e90bc30b2.jpg ec69668cfd105a3844bc1dfc036df261 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F66986ea49c777b4977889b8a654cf444.mp4 6007493e41305ba6e1266b686800d020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dale Denham Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Northwest Public Television | Denham_Dale </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Laura Arata: I feel ready. I think Dale feels ready. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Dale Denham: Yeah. Are you going to ask me some questions to begin with, or just-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: I sure am. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: [LAUGHTER] We're here, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: If we could just start by having you say your name, and then spell your last name for us, please? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Okay. Dale Denham. D-E-N-H-A-M. I always let people know it's like the denim jeans. Can't forget me. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. It's December 12, 2013. We're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So if we could just start, I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about when you came to Hanford, why you came to Hanford, and what you knew about it at the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, maybe it's better if I tell you when I first came in 1947. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Please do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: But as a young person, came with my family because my dad was invited to come up here and start a radio station. And Dad was in the radio business since the '20s. And his buddy says, boy, this is just a golden opportunity, and dad said, oh no. The war's over and this place is going to fold. Obviously, he was a bit wrong, but he had been through the Depression and all those kind of things. So we came. My sister and I would come up on the train and spend weeks, because they had a couple daughters. And they moved in in '47 and stayed here 'til '57. So the station today is KONA, but at that time it was KWIE. And it began in that period, and so we made lots of trips. But they lived in Kennewick, so I really didn't spend much time in Richland. They brought us out to see the barricade out here on Stevens, and the bypass to even get to the 300 Area. And at the time, their studios were being built, and so they were doing things in the Hanford House, which is today the Richland Red Lion. So I had some introduction to the Tri-City community. But I came as a graduate student, 1961, as part of a fellowship from the Atomic Energy Commission, which was in Health Physics. And it turns out I was in the first class of graduates of master's degree from the University of Washington. There were like ten of them, ten of us. We came and spent the summer here in '61. I got married that summer also. And we became acquainted with the site by--much like they did most of the engineers, they moved us around on site, kind of give us a familiarity with all the different aspects of health physics, which was radiation protection, basically, for the people and the environment. And so that was my introduction to the place. But while I was here, the opportunity to get a master's, because they didn't have a master's program at UW at the time, because we were the first class. And while we were here during the summer, a program opened up to get a master's by going back for the second year. So I went on back to University of Washington and was able to get my master's. Matter of fact, I was studying rheumatoid arthritic patients looking for ways to use the reactor there at the university to evaluate the gold in these patients, because gold was not a cure for the disease, but it could slow it down and at least make people so they could--so I worked with two individuals. I collected all their urine, because we were looking for activation techniques. And it took me most of the year because the opportunities were great to look to the future, but we didn't have all the technology yet. I was doing a lot of my work using a single channel analyzer and looking at different photo peaks, energy, gamma ray energies coming off of these radionuclides, because we're all full of sodium, and sodium has a very high energy activation product, sodium-24. And so that was a real issue. And I had to try different ways is to subtract that material, or that impact that we would see on the scans. But that was the beginning. And so I completed the degree. And then my wife had been born in Long Beach, California. Her grandmother was still down there. And so got the opportunity to go to Lawrence Livermore Laboratory--it was called Lawrence Radiation Laboratory at the time--in Livermore, California. So went down there and spent seven years--no, five years--and then came back up here. She developed some real allergy issues. And the kids were still young, small, a couple years old. So it was a good opportunity to come back. We knew what the area was like. We had spent the summer here, which is a tough time. And of course we remembered--I remembered from my childhood all the dust storms and the running out to grab the laundry to bring it in because it was getting dusty. But I just thoroughly enjoyed the sunshine. And my parents, Dad was from Baker City, Oregon, and mother was from Boise, Idaho. So it made sense, in one sense, that they might select to come here. But Mom didn't get along too well in the heat, and so this was not a favorite place. So that was probably part of the equation, too, that they chose not to even go any further, even though their friends were very successful here and sold out, and bought the station in Hood River and then retired, which is what they all did. So that was my introduction and coming to Hanford. And I served in a variety of departments--I mean, by name, but they all were basically radiation protection, health physics, mostly applied. In other words, I was dealing with how to take air samples, where to take air samples, how to take river samples, how to measure them, what to measure them for. I got into the environmental arena, which was really my long-term interest. And so I was involved in the late '60s in the water monitoring portion of the Hanford program, where I looked at the water in the schools, took water from the public schools, water from the wells, drinking water. We sampled water from the river directly. We monitored the river by passing it through detectors. And this was a period when most of the reactors were operating, so there was plenty of activity, and a real challenge to trace that. Where did it go? How was it going to impact the public? But I worked primarily in the 300 Area until I retired from Battelle in '95. Oh, by the way, that's who I came to work for, was Battelle. And I spent all my career up to that point with Battelle after I'd come back from Livermore. And I took the certification exam in health physics and became a certified health physicist, a diplomat of the American Board of Health Physics. I served on the board for that--certifying other individuals coming along. I taught some of the classes here. We started here when this was the graduate school, the graduate center, long before Washington State University became a part of the community. And so I had a lot of involvement in that arena. I just really enjoyed the field because it was broad enough that we could be concerned about x-rays and radiation that you would get externally from contamination, or get it on your body, in your body, so internal evaluation. But I was primarily interested in keeping the environment clean, which was--And I have to mention Herb Parker because he was really the father of the radiation protection, radiation safety here at the site. And Herb called me up one day--this was in the early '70s--and said, I've got an opportunity for you. I think that you would make an excellent candidate to make this move. And I said, well, I wasn't interested in moving. Well, he says, I think you should come over to my office and let's chat. Well, he had a job in an environmental organization called Radiation Management Corporation. He was a consultant to them, and they were in Philadelphia. And I'd always lived all my life on the west coast, so I wasn't very enthused. But I went, I listened. He sent me back for an interview. I went in December, just about this time, a horrible time to go back there. It was crummy weather. It was wet, dark, I couldn't see anything. But it was a little company, and they were about to grow with the nuclear industry to supply environmental monitoring support for the nuclear power reactors up and down the east coast. So I turned them down. But two years later I got another call and says, gosh, we really need you, and here's an opportunity. You better come. So by '74 I did take advantage, moved back there. And then I think it was Jimmy Carter that desired not to reprocess any fuel, and so the nuclear industry, the nuclear power industry dropped off—well, at least began its diminished increased places, increased sites, increased utilities going with nuclear. So that led to the need—we had too many people, grew fast, but then--And matter of fact, my original boss here, Bob Junkins by name, hired me in '67, and I worked with him for almost two years before I moved to the environmental. I was in the criticality safety, nuclear safety business in that time. And my whole role was to develop a criticality safety manual that we could use to audit and evaluate the users of nuclear material here on the site—Battelle's portion of the site. And that led me--then, with that environmental interest, I moved into the environmental monitoring portion in the late '60s. And that's what set me up for that. I went to Philadelphia, but I had to go find something else. And unfortunately, in that time period, I also got divorced back there in Philadelphia. And my children moved back to the west coast, to Bainbridge Island. So it was now, where do I go? Fortunately, there were lots of jobs. I didn't have any problem finding a job. But I chose to go back to Livermore because I was familiar with the territory and the people. And so I went back there. But it was only a couple of years, because I met a gal that I had dated in high school. And she ran into my sister, and my sister gave me an address. I wrote to her, and she called me up and says, what are you doing for Christmas? I said, I'm taking the train to go see my kids. Well, why don't you stop here and see me on the way in Salem? And we both went to Willamette University. That was where our degrees were from. And I'm still married to her today, 35 years. And we've had a great time here at Hanford. When I did retire, I moved—well, I helped--because she was Vice President of United Way. And so I took on the role of the listener as the United Way representative volunteer at the Reemployment Opportunity Center. This was 1995, when we had some 5,000 layoffs. I was part of that, only I wasn't a layoff. I took a voluntary retirement, early retirement. And through that I discovered that there were other positions available on the site, and Bechtel Hanford had come in as the environmental restoration contractor. And golly, I was involved in all that sort of stuff. So it was a perfect opportunity to send a note—I knew the head of the department from my health physics background and membership—and was offered that opportunity to go to work for them. So I spend another eight years with them. And then to finish my career, so to speak, I retired from them in '06, and then I got a call from Battelle, said, we're doing all these calculating the radiation risks of former atomic energy workers, and we really need some help. Could you do this for us? And that was nice because I did it at home. I would come to meetings with Battelle. And one of my close friends, the two of us kind of worked together, which was great, because we were working at home. I had to buy a new computer and all that because I needed access to much more sophisticated equipment than I had, because I was just a little email and that sort of thing. My exciting things that happened here, my work in the nuclear—criticality safety—that was one of my first papers, major papers, because while I was at Livermore I studied the transuranics, which meant the materials that were heavier than uranium, uranium, neptunium, plutonium, americium, curium and so on up the chain. And I got very familiar because I was working with a group of chemists in California as their radiation safety person, where they were trying to come up with these heavier elements. And so I got to know most of that material. And when I got up here and the criticality safety, because that was a concern too. We knew that some of these materials could go critical with the right conditions. So that gave me an opportunity to use that background that I had in knowing these materials, and then to put together, really, a summary. I evaluated the fire safety aspect, the explosion aspects, the radiation—internal as well as external—aspects. So that was one of my real highlights. And that came right at a time when I took the exam to become certified in health physics. The next the set of the exciting things were the working with the environmental, where I got involved with nuclear power reactors and in helping develop criteria for their environmental monitoring programs. You see, we went from Atomic Energy Commission, AEC, to ERDA, Energy Research and Development Administration. That was in '74. And then we became the Department of Energy, and that was about '77, '78. So I went through that period, so I was working for all three agencies, so to speak, just because one followed the other. I think my document that we finally issued on how to use environmental monitoring—that is, what techniques and so on—were recommended by what was called ERDA at that time, but became the DOE position for all the sites. And the way we handled that was, we went out as teams and visited Oak Ridge and Savannah River and Chicago. And we even went to some of the power reactors, or the early--not so much power, but the early development reactors, Idaho, testing, and checking out how they were doing things so that we could then look at a composite and gather the folks. We held a couple of workshops where we brought in folks from all these other sites and said, you know, here's what we see that ought to be the basic criteria. So that was a great opportunity to explore and see other sites. So I visited many of the DOE sites, Los Alamos and Livermore, as all part of that, too. So I had a wonderful time and experience in a whole variety of things, handling these transuranic materials that not a whole lot was known. And you came to know these things by working with them, working on developing shielding, because these materials also—not only external radiation but also neutron radiation, which you get primarily from accelerators, or from particular radionuclides that do give off neutrons as they fission. And so those were areas to explore and develop. But what a great place to have to have worked, to have had my time, and I really don't want to leave the community. We've enjoyed--and my wife, I thought, who really was--after she finished school at Willamette, she stayed there in Salem and went to work. And she's always been in the social services side of things. And she came here, and she headed up Girl Scouts, she headed up Red Cross, and then got involved with United Way. So we ended our careers here, so to speak, but a great place that we have enjoyed. And of course it's far different today than when I came 60 years ago to visit, because the agriculture and all those other things that have occurred as part of the site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: All right. That was a wonderful overview. I'd like to back up for just a minute to when your father first came here to start this radio station. I know you said he lived in Kennewick, but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: No, he didn't. It was my father's best buddy. Yeah. They both were in Portland radio stations. Dad, and his name was Clarence McCready, but we called him Mac. And he chose to come, and brought us along to come and see. But Dad refused to come and be a part of the team. Dean Mitchell's the name I can think of right now. He was—and Dean Mitchell, I think, is still in the community, I think he's still alive. And I believe he goes to Kennewick United Methodist Church over there. I hope to see him because I'm going to be speaking at that church here in a couple weeks, actually about three weeks, in January. But I know I linked up with him because I had a lot of pictures from all this development of the radio station that my family—not my own personal family, but our very close family friends. And we only celebrated Easter and Fourth of July with his family. So you can see, we would come up here and be up here, and in a good time of the year, spring. Summer was hot, but these were occasions. Yeah, so my family never did move up here. But they came to visit when I finally settled here in '67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Visited. Okay. So do you recall any impressions of the community at that time from your visits, what it was like to be here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, the things I remember--and even as a graduate student, the rest of the guys--there were four of us came together--no, three of us. Three of us who had all gone to Willamette together--went to UW for our first year, and then all came here, and then went back to UW to complete that program--they all lived in Kennewick, but I lived here in Richland. I couldn't pass up the nickel each way bus. And I lived in on Gribble Street, which is now where Kadlec has taken over those what were two-story apartments and one-story fourplexes. And that's where I lived that summer in '61. And the bus came right down our street, hopped on for a nickel, and whether I went out to our areas or the 300 Area, because we spent one day a week during that time in the 300 Area in classes in the library, because that was an opportunity for us to learn more about the site, and about the profession and the field. So we had people tell us about instrumentation, told us about environment, told us about the various things that were related to radiation instrument development, and different kinds of survey instruments, and so on. And that was a nice part, because coming back a few years later--well, I left here in '62, finished my degree, and didn't come back 'til '67, so I was gone for five years. The bus system was still here, but the rates were different, and I wasn't using the bus then. And I went to work for Battelle, and my office was in the Federal Building. So I was able to walk to work. And I'm a busser, a walker, and I've been that all my life. I did that in Portland. So it was a logical step for me. The fact that I could get around--I was not much of a commercial--I didn't buy a lot of stuff. And so to this day we're not much consumers. And so it was great. There were a few places. I bowled, you know, I played tennis, golfed some, took advantage of the things that were available right here. I had a cousin--couple of cousins still in Baker City, Oregon, so we'd go down for weekends to go down and see them. And he was a dentist, so he took care of my dental needs early on. But once I settled here with my wife and family, it was no longer making those kind of trips for that purpose. We still had the friendship and relationship. I enjoyed just the—well, I guess I wouldn't say I enjoyed the heat, but yet I liked lots of sunshine, and the people. Enjoyed working with the people. And that was a tough part of retiring. And of course, I took care of part of that by volunteering over at the Reemployment Opportunities Center, which was over in Kennewick. And at that point we had moved out to the Village at Canyon Lakes. It was brand new, building that community and retirement. And so I thought, well, we'll get in on the ground floor. We'll be there and get acquainted, and so on. But then the opportunity with Bechtel, but clear out at the north end of the site. And after two years of that long commute, we moved back to Richland. But the opportunities here for my interests, and the opportunities on the job, because I didn't just stay right here, because I was working for Battelle, and we did a lot of—I suppose you would call it contract research because that was Battelle's primary activity. But yet it really took me to visit other sites and to see how we could improve what we were doing right here. And I think that that opportunity—I didn't have to go somewhere else. Yes, I did interview for jobs along the line, along the way during the time. I interviewed at Los Alamos. I interviewed at Rocky Flats and so on. But this was home, so to speak. And so it was a good place to stay. It wasn't—30,000 or so population. And the population of Richland, today I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's doubled in all this time. But the boundary where Yakima came in to the Columbia there was kind of the southern end of Richland. There was Richland Y and so on. But I lived essentially all my time within that confines. And of course now there's many homes and developments south, and yet still part of the incorporated portion of Richland. So yes, this was a delightful place, and it still is for me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: We've heard lots of fun stories about card games and checkers games and different kinds of things going on, on these buses. Do you have any fun stories? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, yes. I tell you, what I used the bus for was sleeping. Being a newlywed and having all these classes and riding the bus every day, I would often take a nap on the way home. And often I'd end up at the end of the bus. Rather than getting off at my stop, I would discover, oh, I missed the stop, so I got a little walk in. [LAUGHTER] But yeah, there were card games on the buses. I was not a bridge player, and that was one of the—I played at pinnacle and hearts. And we played on the job. My goodness, we kept our scores on the blackboard in the office. Yeah, we played hearts. And there were other games, I'm sure, but that's what I remember the most. And I remember, also, we were conscious of our walking hour, keeping track of our weight and all. So we would walk over—after lunch we'd walk over and check our weight at the medical, go weigh on the scales. And I was never a smoker, but one of the guys in the group, even the leader, was a heavy smoker. But one of the guys who was roughly my age--and matter of fact, he went back to grad school, and that opened the door for me to step in and take his job in the environmental in the late '60s. So that was ideal. And that was another thing. We were paying attention to those things that now the society is beginning to look at. So we looked for those kinds of things. I think the working environment was great. In my later years here, before I left Battelle, it was altogether different, because now the opportunities within Battelle were more in the research arena. And that wasn't my forte, it was not my capabilities, not my interest, in going out and trying to obtain contracts and so on. So I found it--and that's—when the opportunity to retire early, I just took advantage of it. My wife had a good job, and so she became my sugar mama to take care of me, take care of us. And we had no children living here. Our children were all grown by then. And so our needs were different. But I missed the people. But yet I was interacting every day, because I was there usually half a day. But some days I'd be there all day. And I kept the hot water hot so I could make cocoa, or soups, or whatever people who were coming to find jobs and to look. We did mock interviews and all that sort of thing. So it was a continuation of that people interaction that I really enjoyed. And of course, when one does retire, a number of my friends have said the same thing. And yet today I don't know how I have time to work, because I'm plenty involved in the community. And so that's part of--my wife and I joined the Gideons, and so that's been one of our major activities in our retirement, that we've served as presidents of the local camps on a geographic basis, and also area directors. And we have a state convention coming up this next spring, so we're heavily involved in that. So we have enjoyed that aspect of life here. And we have a daughter in Olympia, and we have a son—well, a daughter and family in Olympia and same in Portland. Otherwise the kids are south of Eugene and Cottage Grove, and then a son and family in Albuquerque. Neither of the sons—both have PhDs—and neither are involved in the nuclear business. Both of them engineers. One basically what I would call a—well, one's a civil engineer with water interests. And the other is involved in materials engineering, works for Ball Aerospace, so has a lot of involvement in things that I might have had an involvement in, but not from the nuclear standpoint. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Yeah, the things I remember—like I say, we had activities with other families right here. We were involved in the church. We got involved in the church. I'm in a different church today, but that's where we raised our kids. So it was a good community environment. In terms of what else did I do, well, I think I mentioned I had the children, and we did things with them. We camped. And I wasn't a fisherman or a hunter, so those things weren't part of my interests here in the community. But I remember we would do the sledding and so on when the conditions were right, the snow and Carmichael Hill, because we lived not far from there, we'd walk over there, and swimming pool. Back in the very early days--and let me go back to that for just a moment. Because when we came, McNary Dam wasn't here. So we had to take a ferry to cross from or Oregon to Washington, or we had to take the Bridge of the Gods back, 40 miles out of Portland, and then take that route. And we'd usually come over Satus Pass and come into Kennewick that way. Today you can take Highway 12 and 14 in all the way to Vancouver on the Oregon side--I mean, on the Washington side, excuse me. So that was interesting because this was a free-flowing river. There weren't any dams in that area. And so riding that ferry in a fairly narrow portion of the river was—and these are one- or two-car type ferries. I mean, this wasn't a big ferry like you see out of Puget Sound. And it was difficult to reach the shore. Sometimes you'd get close and you'd have to back up and try again. And then I watched all the highways come in over the Horse Heavens. Because it used to be you could stay on the Oregon side and come around through Walla Walla that way. So it was a whole different—and it took longer. The roads weren't as nice. And so I watched the—several times they've rebuilt the highway over the Horse Heavens. Because we have family in Portland, we go down there every month or two with grandkids. They're about to finish—well, the last one is in his senior year in high school, and the other's in college. And all the rest of our grandkids, except the ones in Albuquerque, are all over 21. So our involvement with them is a lot different than when they were younger. So yeah, it was a different place just because of the getting around. And we didn't have a public transit. We didn't have—in those early days right here. But we had the Hanford buses. And you can see the one down there by the Crehst Museum. And that's what I rode much of the time, up until when I chose my work with Battelle. By then, going out on the site, it was about $50 a month to ride the bus then. It was more expensive. And then I did go through some periods of spending time out on the site, where I'd spend a couple weeks for some activity, work-related, and I would end up being able to take a government car. And I worked in the Federal Building, so it was convenient. We had a motor pool there. So that’s some of the background. I don't know if there's other things that you were hoping to talk about, or remind me of. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: I think I just have couple more questions. One thing I wonder if you could talk about, obviously much of your career at Hanford spans the Cold War period. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: So of course security was a very important concern. Can you talk a little bit about how that impacted your career? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, it certainly did. And I was fortunate in the sense that I had the Atomic Energy Commission fellowship. In order to get that and apply it at the University of Washington, I had to get security clearance. So I was cleared, and that happened when I went to Livermore. Right after I finished grad school, I arrived at Livermore. And because I had a clearance, I was assigned those facilities to be radiation safety person. I know that you know the name Ron Kathren, or have come across Ron Kathren. And Ron Kathren became my officemate there. He didn't have the clearance. So I got to be in places and work things that he wasn't able to—well, he was eventually, I mean, he got the clearance also. And of course, late in my career—like when I went to Philadelphia, I didn't need a clearance back there. And when I came back, yes, I had to get my clearance re-instituted in Livermore, because Livermore is still very much involved with weaponry, or at least the development of materials. And so yes, clearance. But fortunately, I didn't have an issue, and because I had had it really at the beginning when I went to grad school, that didn't impact me. And some of my site visits at Oak Ridge, I had to have special clearance to get into some of the places. One of the things I didn't mention, and I should, I got involved in the decommissioning. And of course, that was the activity with Bechtel Hanford. But the other thing I got involved in was what we call development of an emergency assessment resource manual. We called it HEARM, and they called—because I was working with some gals, too, that was my harem. But it was Hanford Emergency Assessment Resource Manual. Well, our sponsor at DOE headquarters began to see the utility of that at some of the other DOE sites. So we went to Livermore, we went to Los Alamos, we went to Oak Ridge, we went to Savannah River. We developed those same manuals for these other sites. And basically what it was was an identification of the--a safety assessment. And DOE was forcing all to look at the safety of their business. And if something went wrong, how bad could it be? So that's what this manual was, was to identify the facilities and the materials. It was structured originally about radiation, but it became clear that there were also hazardous chemicals and other materials that needed to be of concern. And if they had an explosion, if they had a venting, they had a situation, where would that stuff go? So we developed this. We looked at site boundaries. How far to the site boundary, in what directions, look at wind speeds, all of that. So we combined all of that into a manual so that we could use that here at Hanford, called the Unified Dose Assessment Center, UDAC. And that provided a tool so when an emergency occurred, we knew we had an indication of how bad it could be. We could flip to the page that was Building XYZ, and we could say, ah, this really is not likely to be any kind of an issue. Or just the opposite, that it was an ABC, it was the top priority, the most hazardous materials on the site handled in that building. And what were the projected, from the safety assessments, for the actual use of those facilities? And so that was an exciting kind of thing, because we got into sites where they had more security need than what I had to do for those. And so yes, we got into those. Matter of fact, some of the materials that we developed were basically classified information on how much material is in this building, where is this building relative to the site, and so on. So those kind of things we had to tone down, we had to talk about and find ways. And they became, essentially, not top secret, but at least they were less. And so we provided not only these manuals for right here, but also DOE headquarters got the same copies. So whenever something was going wrong, they're evaluating what's happening out here, or from Livermore, or from Sandy, or Savannah River, or one of the other sites. So yes, that was the emergency management aspect. And Battelle, that was one of the things that I moved from that development into working with the—Battelle had a contract for the 60 nuclear power plants to do emergency exercises. And I even got involved with my wife with the Red Cross, because Red Cross would get involved in emergency exercises, especially for the supply system here. And I remember Mesa School was the first one. And so I got a couple of my health physics buddies, and we would go and be the consultants. Because the farmers would come in and say, well, what should I do? My cows are out there on this potentially contaminated ground. What do I need to do? This was just--these were what-if type exercises. So that was an aspect I guess I just had passed over and forgotten all about. So even had an involvement with my wife indirectly because of that. So with these nuclear sites, I got involved as an evaluator to go out either for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission or DOE, and evaluate these exercises. So I was involved not in developing those exercises, but evaluating and being there on site. And also, as a result, I got to go to the Kennedy Space Center and involved in a couple of spacecraft launches that had nuclear materials. And so that was exciting, paid to go. And also got involved in many cancellations. You know, weather didn't turn out right, we'd get thunderstorms or a rain, and you'd have to wait it out for a few more days. Those sort of things. Galileo, I think, was the one major one that we were sending heat sources, radioactive sources into space, so if they were to have aborted—not for reentry, but on the launch, that's why we were there, to take air samples, you know, we were teams spread out. So there's another aspect I'd forgotten about. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Very cool. You had this multiplicity of great jobs, it sounds like, throughout the course of your career here. Is there anything that stands out as being the most challenging or the most rewarding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, I think the challenge came later in the career when—as I mentioned, that Battelle was going off in a research wing, and that wasn't where my expertise and my capabilities were. And so a challenge to—if I'm not going to stick around, what am I going to do? Because nuclear power was obviously diminishing with time, especially when you get up in the 90s, and so on. So that became one of the challenges, if I were to retire, what would I do? I was young enough, late '50s, I didn't need to retire that early. And the other side, the side as I shared, I think sort of the three or four major things that I was involved in that I very much enjoyed, one—and I haven't shared this directly—I was involved with Joe Soledad. And I don't know whether you've interviewed Joe, but I know Joe's been interviewed. I just don't know who were involved. But Joe was developing all the criteria to evaluate all these radionuclides that had been released here in Hanford, had been released at other sites, or could be—weren't necessarily all released, but I mean, if they got into the environment and got into people, what kind of doses could those--Well, I was involved with Joe as my mentor. I developed the numbers that went in—in other words, I looked at the decay schemes of each of those radionuclides and then built the numbers that would go into the equations. I didn't develop the equations for how much got into the human body, but I developed if you had radioiodine, or you had strontium, or you had cesium, or you had plutonium, what could that mean inside the body? And so that was a great opportunity that I had developing those, because those became—and still used today—all that environmental pathway stuff that Joe had developed is still in use today, used by the EPA, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Yeah, they've added more materials and modified things a bit. But the modifications are more related to, now, more knowledge about some of those decay schemes and so on, but that impact. So that was one of the exciting things. The criticality safety manual. I get the manual done, and I got to move on to something else, because once you've developed the manual, unless you're using it--yes, I was. I was out evaluating criticality safety. I was auditing, basically. Oh, that was, yeah, I could do it, but it was more fun to go out and get involved in the environmental monitoring, choosing which sample, where to sample, what to analyze those samples for, and then write the report to show what this means impact-wise for the site. Going from there, then, into developing what should an environmental monitoring program look like, either for a nuclear power plant or a place like Hanford. That was that exciting and thrilling, and I felt I made a contribution. And then to jump over into, now you understand that stuff, and now relate that to emergency preparedness and evaluating emergency preparedness. Did you take into account? I will have to say, because I was involved in a course, and I've forgotten what the course was called, but it was at the Nevada test site. And we were there--and I think it was only Hanford person there at the time. That's when I was involved in emergency preparedness. And this was a course to really walk us through scenarios and situations, and see the mistakes we could make. We could walk over a wire on the ground that we shouldn't have because it was live, or could've been live, and not recognizing that. You're taking an action for what you see in front of you, but then missing out on something that you shouldn't have done as part of that. And that became part of our evaluation, when we looked at mistakes they would make, not take an air sample, or take it where it shouldn't have been. You should have taken it over here instead of over there, you know, those kind of things. So was able to use all that background and material that I had had as part of my career. I feel like, yes, had I started over today, I think I would've probably gone the environmental, but more from an atmospheric and understanding weather. That was an interest as a kid. I've watched—this is before television—and I would pay attention to the thermometer and what was going on. Is it going to snow tomorrow, or that kind of thing. But otherwise, no, it was great. And the courses and the opportunities afforded by this diverse kind of a field, that when I came, and when I was a health physicist, I didn't know what a health physicist was, but I think I have a pretty good idea today. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: So obviously, a lot of my students now were born after the Cold War. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: They don't really understand that time period. Is there anything you'd like for future generations who may be watching this video to know about what it was like to work during that time period and contribute to that effort? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, obviously, one of the things, being here in Hanford, was because we had all these reactors operating, which meant that there was always contamination going into the river, contamination going into the ground. Reprocessing was occurring, but was stopped at a time period. So then we had to—and of course, today we still hear about whether it's from the west side or else around the country. Even our own family ask questions. What about the leaking tanks? What does that mean? And from my perspective, I have an idea what that means. And I think I look at it in a lot different mindset, because I know that yes, it's of concern, and it should be. But on the other hand, it's not going to kill me. It's not going to give me a dose that I won't want to stay here, I won't want to live here. And because, like I said, in the older days, when all the reactors were operating and so on, we had a lot more radioactivity to deal with. But Joe's equation--Joe Soledad--those pathway formulas and equations and so on that we used, we proved with that that hey, yes, there is material out there. It's of low consequence to you and me as residents of the community. And I think that that was probably a kind of thing that we—the scientists, let's say, the science side--were not very successful in communicating that to the public. And I don't think we are today. Because I can remember one of my daughter's friends, when they had the different kinds of sweeteners, and they would say no, we're going to cut those off. And so when her dad worked in the grocery business, he could bring that stuff home, and no, I don't think we want to use that. Again, uninformed about those kind of things. And I think that's the aspect—that we get a bug, a thought of what an impact could be, and yet we don't know the whole story. And I know I tried, but on the other hand, that wasn't my role particularly. But I was aware. And I think that, looking today, we look at so many more things today in terms of hurtful environmental impact kinds of things. I'm thinking just the environmental movement, if you will, because our daughter-in-law is very much involved there, and her daughter is now in college and looking in that same arena. The other daughter-in-law down in New Mexico, that was one of her areas of interest. And she studied bugs and insects and that sort of thing. Today she's not using that, because she's really into health and doing private yoga and exercise training. But the Cold War meant that--well, that's where it was nice when I got to go the other sites, because that allowed me to kind of see, and to put all this together as an understanding of the whole package, and not just what's happening in Hanford or what's happening at Oak Ridge or whatever, to be able to realize that probably some choices—I mean, the making the choice here of Hanford, I think, was a wonderful choice. Choosing this remote location--it's not so remote today, but I think it was an excellent—from all the material, all the information we knew at the time. And yet places like Savannah River, where you've got all kinds of groundwater and all kinds of those kind of issues, maybe that wasn't such a good place, where the ability of stuff to move would be greater than a place like this. And I think what we saw, and what I remember just from the public, my own families—our own families would ask questions, which was very reasonable. And I think the understanding—and we've been watching—I'm digressing for a second, but we've been watching the Presidential wives series on television, so we're going back over the history and seeing some of the things that were going on as this whole business developed in our lifetime, things that we didn't realize, because some was top secret, not shared. And of course, I was perfectly happy to work in a closed environment, where you didn't share everything you did. For someone today, I think that the question aspect of business, and for the future, is always question what you're doing, how can it impact the environment, how can it impact people, how can it impact you yourself? Cellphones, all kinds of things that we use and are in use daily, but do we really know what the long-term impacts of these devices are? I think for the moment we feel quite certain that we're not creating monster issues that become-- But I like the environmental movement, because I kind of put my life together around that, an interest in seeing that we're doing the right things to keep us safe, and yet not say, you can't do that. And of course, the environmental impact statement business. I was involved partly in that too, in helping develop those. I guess my last one that I was involved in was in Tennessee, for the Tennessee Valley Authority, because they were going wide with lots of nuclear. And that was in the '90s, as I recall, when I went down there and was involved. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to tell us about? Any other stories that stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, of course, we did have accidents. We had things that—yeah, I got involved in a cleanup in the 300 Area, where an underground pipe had broken. And this was americium, was a principal nuclide that had gotten into the ground. And we ended up digging that all up. But just chasing it, deciding where to sample, and digging up and then discovering, oh, the pipe is all corroded. So yes, everything that went down that drain. And so those kinds of things, I really enjoyed those, because you were evaluating a condition that was really an unknown. And I think that's part of what the environmental restoration contract--the Bechtel work that I was involved in, we were doing some of that, too, because we were making measurements and then determining, did those measurements give us what we need to know so that we can take the appropriate steps for remediation? And so I think that aspect, so to speak, of research piece might have been--if I were to start again, I might be more interested in research. But at the time, I was more interested in what we need to know so that we can take the right steps to move forward. I think that those are my observations. I was an enthusiastic worker. I just loved the opportunity and the people to work with. And we did a lot of group things. You know, I can remember back in the old days, Ron Kathren and I would have an equation on the blackboard we were trying to solve, and then leave it up there for a while with getting more information to make things fit. You took the information you had. And I was successful, probably published about, I don't know, 50 different papers in Health Physics Journal. And I also was involved in the Society for Radiological Protection in the British Isles. I gave two different presentations over there in the '80s and '90s, which is always nice to go and experience others. I had even looked at that as a possible exchange. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: And as a result of those visits, I got invited to go to the Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna and work on an environmental plan with folks from all over the world. And we had interpreters, because we had Russians, and we had Canadians, and we had French and Germans. And so on—all that was nice. And they paid my way, and I got to spend--matter of fact, I made two trips in the same year on that activity. I had a third one, but the Department of Energy wouldn't allow me to go on the third one. So that adds to your enjoyment, your understanding and working with people who have come from different places, and yet have similar issues and problems, and how are you addressing—especially when we're trying to write a manual, an international manual that would be used wherever, in developing countries as well as advanced countries and so on, to protect people in the environment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Is there anything else at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Not that's coming to me at this point. [LAUGHTER] I'm just delighted to have had this opportunity to share with you, even though it's very uncoordinated. [LAUGHTER] I certainly rambled. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: No, that was wonderful. You gave us some great details. That’s always exciting for us to hear about. And I want to thank you so much for sharing with us. We really appreciate you taking time out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: Well, Laura, it was a pleasure sharing with you and getting to know you. I wish you well in your— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Arata: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX251492516"> Denham: --future work and finishing your PhD. I never got there. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:06:42 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 5261 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 area. Bechtel Hanford Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1961-1995 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Parker, Herb Kathren, Ron Soldat, Joe Carter, Jimmy Junkins, Bob McCreedy, Clarence Mitchell, Dean Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dale Denham Description An account of the resource An interview with Dale Denham conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/12/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-24: Metadata v1 created – [J.G] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear instruments & methods Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) 300 Area Battelle (Wash.) Bechtel Hanford Kennewick (Wash.) Livermore Los Alamos Oakridge Richland (Wash.) Savannah River https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F87ecc987034864d62db62204d55d0bc7.jpg dc2f3a9d5d227b3e10b4c5f4fa23e851 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4a11178c5bbf0f118a20a21fbc52ebd6.mp4 5110673bb576657e77c232480aa3fb81 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dawson, Murrel Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Dawson_Murrel Murrel Dawson: I assume this will be edited. [LAUGHTER] Robert Bauman: Yeah, so we’ve had the phone go off and— Dawson: [LAUGHTER] Oh, this is not easy for someone who has not done it very much. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] It’s okay. Just, I mean, essentially, we’re just having a conversation about your family and your experiences. Dawson: Okay. Bauman: I’m not—it’s not like an FBI interrogation or anything. [LAUGHTER] Dawson: You won’t hold me tight to the dates? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: No, you know, in fact, yeah. Dawson: I think you have all the dates. Bauman: Yeah, it’s more the stories, the memories, the experiences that we’re most interested in, than the— Camera man: I’m rolling on both of them. Bauman: Good to go? Camera man: Yup. Bauman: Okay, great. All right, well let’s start maybe by having you state your name for us, first. Dawson: My name is Murrel Dawson. Bauman: All right, thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we’re conducting this oral history interview on August 6th of 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And we’ll be talking with Murrel Dawson about her family and their experiences in Priest Rapids Valley. And so let’s start with that, maybe, if you could talk about your family’s history a little bit, maybe how they came into the area and that sort of thing. Dawson: Well, my mother and dad and the oldest four of his kids came from Prosser. It was right after Depression days. Dad had hired on to work at Midway, in the construction. It was under construction at that time. So we had about a month left of kindergarten—school, for me, talking about myself. And we went to Hanford to be near my dad. And we stayed with my Aunt Nell Clark and her family that had a home there at Hanford. And I went and finished my kindergarten there at Hanford. My dad hired on then at Priest Rapids as an operator at the little powerhouse. And they needed an operator, so there was an empty house there at the time. So they moved us up, or we moved up to that house. And that was in May of 1941, I believe, the end of May. And that's how we got there. Dad needed the job. Bauman: Mm-hm. And so he worked in construction? Dawson: He was, I would say, a laborer. And prior to that, when he lived in--he came from North Dakota, and I think when he lived back there, he had done some work as an operator for some company. I don't know what. But--so he had some experience at that. But during the Depression days, like everyone else, he just hustled for work, traveled for work, because we had four children in the family at that time. Bauman: And what about your mother? I understand she had lived in Hanford growing up at some point? Dawson: Mother's family--mom came from Indiana as a little infant. They came out on a train, settled in Hartline on a wheat farm. My grandfather was the civil engineer, I believe, county engineer for that county. Then I think they lived in Ephrata for a short time. He was not a good wheat farmer, I understand. [LAUGHTER] But he had several boys that did the work that were partly grown at that time. So then at that point, they moved to Hanford. Mother was a young child. And they farmed in Hanford, and my grandfather was a surveyor. He did the survey work for the soldier homes at Hanford. And my Uncle Howard, his son, helped him. That was one of the things. And he was also the engineer on some of these little bridges you'll see. One was across Crab Creek. I don't even think it's there anymore. But then about the time, I think, that mom was entering high school, they moved to Prosser. She went to school in Prosser, high school in Prosser, and that's where she met my dad, and they married. And I was trying to think--she, how many years would it be later? I don't know. But anyway, when I was in kindergarten, that's when they left Prosser. But mom actually graduated from Prosser High School. Bauman: And what was your grandfather's name? Dawson: Stradling was the last name. Edward was the first name, Edward Stradling. Bauman: Did your mother talk much about her time growing up in Hanford? Dawson: A lot. [LAUGHTER] She loves stories. Mom was a great storyteller. She tells about her and her brother John that were not the youngest, but next to the youngest two in the family. It was their job to herd the cows, bring the cows in, make sure they didn't run off when they went out to graze. She liked to tell stories of Grandma and the kids going down to the river for--they'd catch fish there at Hanford and clean them and cook them over a fire. Also about Grandpa driving his car out across the road to Prosser, where he did a lot of his survey work, and getting stuck in the sand and that kind of thing. And they would send her along so that if he dozed off, she could wake him up. [LAUGHTER] Keep him on the road, things like that. I don't know how much truth was in all of that, but they made great stories to entertain us kids. And my grandfather also laid out the cemetery in Prosser. He did the survey work on that. That's where my grandparents are buried. Bauman: Okay. And so did they have a dairy farm? What sort of farm did they have? You mentioned the cows. Dawson: In Hanford? Bauman: Hanford, yeah. Dawson: They grew--No, they did not have a dairy farm. That was just the family cows. And I think they sold butter and milk to the hotel, but they didn't have a herd, to my knowledge. They raised broom straw, sorghum, and something else. I think strawberries maybe. But it was row crops, what they raised. Yeah. Bauman: And then you said you spent very last month of kindergarten there. Dawson: Right. We moved to Hanford from Prosser. Daddy was up at Midway working. And we stayed for a short time with my aunt, and then we got a little house, rented a little house. So we were there I think probably the last month, maybe two months of my kindergarten age. Bauman: Any memories from that time at all? Dawson: The only thing I can remember is I would have to walk home by myself, and I would get lost. And I could always spot our house if I got over the right hill because there was a big washtub hanging on the side of it, on the outside of it. That's my memory. [LAUGHTER] But no, I can't remember Hanford myself at that age. Bauman: And what was your aunt's name? Dawson: It was Frank Clark and Nell Clark. And she had six boys, Benny and Walt that we called Killdie. But those fellows are still here in Richland. They still live here in Richland. The other sons are gone. One lives in Wenatchee. Steve lives in Wenatchee. So, let's see, Howard and Ray are gone, yeah. Bauman: And so was that your mother's sister? Dawson: Uh-huh. Aunt Nell was mom's sister. Bauman: And then so you said then you arrived in Priest Rapids in about May of '41. Dawson: Mom, in her book [LAUGHTER]--that's where I get these dates--in May of 1941, she went up to Priest Rapids to what we call the John van Ordstrand house. It was the number three house. And it was vacant. And she remembers vividly of walking into a house that the wind could blow dust through. It was built in 1914 or something like that, and it was built flat on the ground. There was no foundation to lift it up. And it had guy-wires to keep it straight from the wind. It was guy-wired on the upwind side because the winds blew so hard that it--I don't know what you call it--lean, tilted, not a huge amount, but enough that they had to guy it up. And it was full of sand and dirt and leaves and whatnot, so Mom got in and cleaned it up and got the--her favorite story, and she was spooky of spiders. She was really scared of spiders--of rolling newspapers up tight and lighting them on fire and making sure they weren't flaming but just cinders, and burning the black widows out from under the tub that sat on legs. You know the old style tubs, and trying to clean up the bathroom. And then once she got all that done, then us kids came up from Hanford and joined. And my first recollection of being at Priest Rapids was Daddy got us kids, us four kids, out of our old Oakland car, stood us up, and said, remember one thing. There are a lot of rattlesnakes here, so be careful where you step, where you walk, and where you put your hands. [LAUGHTER] That was my first memory of being there. Bauman: And so how long were you in that house? Dawson: We were there a couple of years, I think. And then--when we moved to Priest Rapids there were three operators--my dad, an operator named Les Brooks--and his elderly mother lived with him--and Joe Grewell. And Joe Grewell lived in what we call the first house, house number one. And it was a well-constructed house, needless to say. It was one that was built later, evidently. Okay, those were the people that worked at the powerhouse. Joe Grewell left. He I think went down to Hanford to work for something. And a man named John van Ordstrand moved into our house. And mom moved our family over to where Joe Grewell had lived, which was a much better house, because the first house we lived in was, like I say, flat on the ground. And it was very, very common to find snakes in our cupboard, bottom cupboard. Never found a rattlesnake, but bull snakes would get in there occasionally. And so she didn't like that house. Mom didn't like living in there. And so anyway, we went to Joe Grewell house when he moved. And I can't remember for sure the time frame on it, but we probably lived in the first house a couple years. Bauman: So what sort of community was Priest Rapids at the time? Can you describe what it was like living there, people who were there, that sort of thing? Dawson: Mm-hmm. Like I say, there were three operators, which meant the operators that worked at the plant, they did not rotate shifts. They were on a given shift. My dad was on graveyard. And he worked seven days a week, no days off, graveyard until the Pacific Power and Light Company came and leased the powerhouse. And I think that was something like two and a half years, which made it tricky to go to town to get anything. So it was Dad, the other two operators--like I say, it was Joe Grewell and Les Brooks. They did the same thing, except one was on days, and one was on swing, and dad was on graveyard. Then the ranch house, which it was Brown Brothers and Sisk's ranch house at that time. There was Cassie. Well, first of all there was Bob Sisk and his wife Dell--Della, and Della's daughter, Kris--no, I'm sorry, Cassie McGhee. Her son Russell McGhee and his wife, Kris. And did I leave--oh, Wynn, Wynn Brown was also Della's son. So Wynn and Russell were brothers and their sister Cassie. They were at the ranch. The depot had one fellow living there that I remember. I think it was just the one, and his name is Bill Mays. And that was it, plus then at the Indian encampment was about two miles up the river from us. And they were there only in the winter, because they went out in spring, early spring, to work at Moxee. Firstly they helped in the orchards at Vernita before they left, completely left. They went down and helped pick fruit. And then they went on into the Moxee area to work in the crops, usually the hops, I think. Bauman: So they were there in the winter months. Dawson: They came back in the fall when the crops were in. They came back to Priest Rapids, right, and spent the winter. Bauman: Did you interact a lot with the-- Dawson: Not on a social level. Johnny, Johnny Buck, the chief at that time, would come down to our house from time to time, not often but from time to time. And when he had to have letters written, he would ask my mom to write letters for him. And he would sit and talk to her, and she would write whatever it was that he needed to say, and would address the envelope for him and put the stamp on. And then I assume he would mail it at the depot. One year--I think it was only one year that Martha Johnny brought her tepee down and set up beside our house. This was when we were in the ranch house. So that the two boys, Bobby Tamanawash--later known as Robert Tamanawash--and Lester Rumtuck stayed with her so they could go to school with us. And Bobby was the same age pretty much that my brother Dean was at that time, and so they hung out a lot together. Bauman: So tell me a little bit about the school in the area. Was there a bus that you took to school? How many kids were in the school, that sort of thing. Any specific memories? Dawson: Okay. When we started school, mother tried to get a school started at Priest Rapids because there was none. And, believe it or not, it's under the Selah school district at Priest Rapids. But she found that out. So she went to the school district, and they said no, it would be too expensive to start one there. So they evidently came into some kind of an agreement with the folks that they would drive us down to Vernita School--that was an established school--daily. And then the school district would reimburse Daddy for the expense. And according to mom's book here, it was like $45 a month to do that, which was big money because Dad was working for $45 a month in warrants. That's how he was paid before the power company took over. So cash money was unheard of. It was warrants. Okay. So anyway, we went to Vernita School until it was closed down, and I think they closed it down like in 1942 or something when DuPont took over the area. They closed that school, which left us kids at Priest Rapids without a school. Mom went back to the Selah district, and they reopened the Priest Rapids school, which is the photograph I've got, and hired a teacher to come in. And there was no place for her to live, so mom boarded her until it was about that time that Brown Brothers and Sisks had to leave Priest Rapids because of the Manhattan Project. They were forced out. They resettled at Vantage. And that left the ranch house vacant. And then the power company--by this time PP&L, Pacific Power and Light Company had, if I've got my timeline right, had taken over. And they had leased the ranch house for the fourth operator to live in. But Sisks were allowed to stay for the lambing season. They got a Quonset hut and set it up out in the field by the house, and the family moved into it while the power company took over the ranch house, which seemed to me unbelievable. But it did. That's what happened, I guess. So then the teacher had the little house by the ranch house to live in, so she moved over there. Then we had our school there at Priest Rapids from that point on until '40--well, '47, '48 I think was probably the last year that school ran. But I wouldn't swear to that. It may have gone another year. That was the last year we were associated with it. Bauman: So how many students were at that school, then, in Priest Rapids? Dawson: Okay, one year, the two Indian kids--Bobby and Lester--Dean and myself, Edgar--my brother--I think that was it one year. Another year, Jake Strike had two little girls. He moved his family in. He was the fellow way up the river. And one year they were there, but the Indian boys weren't there. But basically [LAUGHTER] it was Anglin kids and the Yeager kids. The others came and went. And then the last year, mother drove the school bus up from Vernita, because we then at that point lived in Vernita--drove it up, and two or three kids from Midway came up and joined. And that was the picture of mom standing by the car. There must have been about five or six of us maybe. Bauman: And what was your teacher's name, the one who was hired to come teach? Dawson: Firstly it was Maddox, Mrs. Maddox--interesting lady. She only had one arm. But it was amazing. She could do everything. She lived independently. She was there a couple years. Mother was a little upset with her because she took school up at 10:00 and let us out at 2:00. And we were all in different grades, so mom didn't think she was covering what we needed to learn. Nice lady, but she did like to hold Sunday school more than she did regular school, which was okay. But we really needed to know some basic education. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, she was replaced by--oh goodness. Who was she replaced by? I know. It was Ms. Thompson. She came in. She was a very good teacher. She was going to be teaching 1947-48. And the only reason I remember those dates is the lightning struck our house the weekend before school was to start and burned it to the ground. That was the ranch house. So Ms. Thompson was going to live in the little house beside the little—we always called it the teacher's house. So when our house burned, obviously we had to find a place to live. So PP&L at that point found us a place down in Vernita, the closest one to Priest Rapids, which was the Knobb brothers' home. It was vacant because of Manhattan Project. Those guys were all sent out, left. They had to leave. So we moved there for that winter and spring. We were there when the '48 flood hit. And mother was still driving us up to Priest Rapids to school and to take Daddy to work. Dad was still at the powerhouse. So the flood caused some problems in the spring because it covered the road. So there were times that the speeder from the railroad station would come down and pick us kids up and take us up so we could go to school. The older children--my brother and sister, who were eighth grade and older—they drove down. Daddy taught my brother how to drive. I don't know how old he was, eighth grader I guess or something like that. And he would drive down, and they would go to Sunnyside. Although my sister, who when she was in the eighth grade, they took the eighth grade kids out of the Vernita School because the classroom was too much for the teacher. So the eighth grade kids went into Hanford. Bauman: Oh, wow. Dawson: And my sister was there when the bulldozers came in to start breaking up for Manhattan. Bauman: She was at the school in Hanford? Dawson: Yeah. She went to eighth grade there. Then after that, the kids came back home. And Edgar never went there, I don't believe. Edgar was still at home. And then they would go down to Midway, and Irvy Wright would drive a little bus into Sunnyside, all the kids into Sunnyside every day and bring them home again. And then my sister started living in Sunnyside with my aunt. And she was kind of the older one, and while she was in high school she roomed with my aunt and also a family named Beth and Claude Jones in Midway. She stayed there a year. But that was how we got her education. Bauman: I want to go back and ask you a little about when your house burned. You said there was a lightning strike. Were you home at the time? Dawson: Mm-hmm. Bauman: That must have been a fairly scary situation. Dawson: Well, we had just--Dean and I, my brother younger than me by a year--we had just gotten home from town, actually, shopping. And we had ridden in with Irvy Wright and come home. And I guess mother had picked us up, or somehow we'd gotten up to Priest Rapids. I don't remember exactly how. But we were trying on our school clothes, and the storm had come in. It was a humdinger. It was probably the hardest lightning storm I'd ever seen. And most of the storms would come down the valley, hit us a little bit, travel on down. This one didn't. It came in and just hung there. And we heard--Daddy was sleeping. He was on graveyard, because he was on rotating shift by this time. But we heard this big heavy bang, and he jumped up, got on his clothes, and went to the powerhouse. He thought the powerhouse had been struck. And mom, she a reassured us kids, don't worry. We've got lightning rods on the house. It can't hurt us. It won't hurt us. And my brother was actually mopping the kitchen floor for her right in the back of the house. It was a big house. And it struck right over the top of him. And he had just gone out the back door with the mop pail in his hand. And mom claims she never found the pail, but I don't know that. [LAUGHTER] That's probably a mom story. But anyway, some people--the Bells, Leo and Effie Bell, one of the operators by this time, they were coming up on the grade road, the road that leads up along the mountain to Priest Rapids. And they saw it hit our house. They saw the bolt hit the house. It hit the top of a poplar tree in the front of the house and bounced and hit the cliffs behind Priest Rapids. There's basalt cliffs back there. At least this is what Effie told us. And they realized the house had been hit, so they really drove as hard as they could. And you have to remember these were all rocky, rutty, unpaved, well-used, beat up roads. So they drove as hard as they could. They ran up, parked, ran up to our front step yelling, your house is on fire. And when the lightning bolt evidently hit the back of the house right over the kitchen and went right down the ridge pole of the house and hit the tree, it ignited our house. There was no way to fight it. The water pressure wouldn't reach. We didn't have big fire extinguishers at the house, plus we had no insurance. But anyway, someone ran and got Dad from the powerhouse and said, it's your house on fire. It isn't the powerhouse. So Daddy came home, and by this time, the neighbors were all there helping. They just couldn't get the fire out. So we all just got busy and carried everything out we could. Mom put the two little kids--Jeannetta and Butch--in the car, drove the car out in the field with the kids in the car so nothing would happen to them, and came back. Bauman: That'd be very hard, yeah. And so then you moved to the house at Vernita. Dawson: Yeah, the Knobb brothers' house, yeah. Bauman: So obviously this is a very small community. Dawson: Very small. Bauman: Very small, so where did you do your shopping? Did you--for either groceries or for clothing or whatever, where did you go to? Well, for clothing, it was Montgomery Ward catalog or Sears catalog. We could order in. When we were first there in '41, a man named Reierson in White Bluffs, he had a store that sold food and dry goods of some sort. I don't remember the store at all. But he would send--see, we got our mail that way too, from Kennewick. And the mail carrier would come up every, I think three times a week. And mom could write a grocery list out, and he would drop it off at Reierson's on the return trip. And we all did that, all the people. And Reierson would take warrants. He would cash a warrant for us. And then next day, the next time he brought the mail up, he'd bring those groceries or whatever mom had written on the list. And I said, gee, mom, how did you--I don't ever remember not having some kind of meat on the table. We never had fresh vegetables to speak of, but how did you do that? You didn't have a refrigerator. And she says, as soon as the meat got there, she cooked it. She cooked it all. And we had lots of beans, and we had lots of those kinds of things. But never missed a meal. Okay, then later, also when Daddy was working seven days a week with no days off, he would get off work at 8:00 in the morning, and Mom would get up really early in the morning and take him down stuff so he could shave and get cleaned up and a change of clothes. And she'd cook his breakfast. She always cooked his breakfast and took it down or whatever. Then she'd get us kids up, get us all fed, get us all cleaned up, dressed, in the car. Daddy'd come up. He'd get there about 10 minutes after 8:00, get in the car. We'd drive to Sunnyside usually, because it was closest. And occasionally they would go into Hanford, I guess. But we'd time it so he could get home and catch a couple hours sleep, because he went to work at midnight again. So that was how they had to work it. Because the other operators, they couldn't fill in for him because if they took a graveyard, they would have had to--you know. So that's how we did it. So a lot of work on Mom’s part and lot of work on Dad's part. Bauman: Sure, right. Were there any--you said this is a very small community. Were there community events that you remember, celebrations of any kind? Dawson: One or two times we had, I remember once it was on a 4th of July, and I think what got us all together--there was a grass fire broke out. [LAUGHTER] And of course, like I say, if there was a problem, everybody came to help. And it ended up that after the fire was out, Mom--I think Dad killed a couple of chickens and Mom fried them, and Bill Mays brought some ice from the depot. They had an ice place, ice thing where you could keep it in sawdust. And they made ice cream. That was one of the gatherings I do remember. But Vernita School would have programs, and all of the farmers who still lived there, Vernita, would come to those programs. Those were important gatherings. They’d put on plays. The teacher would have us kids learn little parts, and we'd put on plays and so on. Bauman: What about churches? Were there churches in the area? Dawson: No. The church, one of the teachers at Vernita--what was her name? Fisk. I don't know what her name was, but she married Frank Fisk while she lived there, so we remember her as Mrs. Fisk. She would hold a Sunday school class. She was going to hold it on Sunday, but then everyone decided that gas was too expensive, so she would hold it on I think it was Friday after school, because people came to get their kids anyway, so they'd have it then so they didn't have to drive extra time. And our teacher at Priest Rapids, Mrs. Maddox, she wanted very much to hold church. However, Mom didn't agree with how she was doing it. [LAUGHTER] That took care of that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I want to ask you also then, how did you get news? Did you have a radio? Was there a newspaper that you got to learn about things that were happening? Dawson: We got a newspaper. It came down on Sagebrush Annie with our mail. Firstly, the mail, if I remember right, the mail came through Kennewick to start with. It was called star route Priest Rapids, I guess. Anyway, then, when that no longer could happen--I assume it was Manhattan that stopped that--it came down through Beverly on the little Sagebrush Annie train. And we would get a newspaper that way. We had a radio, but the static was so bad it was rather difficult to listen to the radio. But we did it anyway. But that was that, and there was a telephone line--they called it the high line--that you could call from the powerhouse out. But our telephones in our houses were the cranky kind, and they only went to the powerhouse. Bauman: Okay, so you couldn't call someone? You could only call the powerhouse. Dawson: Yeah. I don't think we had the ability to telephone away from Priest Rapids from the houses. And I don't think they ever did, even after the Pacific Power and Light Company took over. I don't think they changed the telephone system. Bauman: Do you remember any particular radio shows that you liked listening to? Dawson: Yeah, Fibber McGee and Molly, Jack Benny, and then us kids would listen to the Inner Sanctum. And I think one was called Wanted Dead or Alive. These were all mystery stories. And my brother Dean, who, like I said, was a year younger than me, we had vivid imaginations, I guess, because we knew that one of those ten most wanted was out of Priest Rapids for sure. And if we didn't really pay attention, [LAUGHTER] we were in danger. Bauman: You were in trouble, yeah. Dawson: Yeah. So those were the things we--oh, I think the Lone Ranger maybe. Yeah, those were the-- Bauman: So that provided you some entertainment, the radio. Dawson: Yeah. Bauman: Any other things that you did for fun, for entertainment? Dawson: We did a lot of climbing around the mountains, on the mountains. My sister, JoAnn, who was the oldest and the most--she had a good imagination for things to do. We would climb up in the canyons behind the settlement. And we found one thing. We found a hole in a cliff. Those cliffs were uplifts, I think you call them, like this. And you could climb in. There were shale slides, [INAUDIBLE] slides, down between. And one of them had a hole through it at the base. So we decided that it needed a name. So we took some paint up there, and we wrote Wishing Tunnel 1945 on it. And I think we wrote our names. I can't remember that part for sure, but 1945, Wishing Tunnel. And just not too many years ago, I worked with Jason Buck when I worked for the cultural resources at Battelle. He says, you know--he lives at Priest Rapids. He says, you know, we often wondered who did that, who put that there. I says, well, Jason, your question is answered. The Yeager kids did. But climbing around the rocks, the mountains, hiking. If some of our cousins came out, we played touch football and work up, I think is what you call it with baseball, where you softball and there aren't enough to make two teams, so you play it that way. My brother Edgar, who was two years older than me, had a horse. One of the Gandy dancers that came in at Priest Rapids to lay the new rails for Manhattan, when the Manhattan Project came in, he bought Edgar a horse, a saddle, and a bridle. And I think he bought it from the Indians. And so my brother, he was pretty good size kid for his age, although he was 12 probably, 10 or 12. I don't know for sure how old he was. He rode that horse everywhere. And one time, for some reason, we didn't get our mail from Beverly. And this, I think to this day, I think about it, and I think, oh, Mom, why'd you do that? But anyway, she let him ride that horse to Sentinel Gap. You know where that is? Above Priest Rapids where the Beverly, the railroad tracks, the bridge goes across the river. He rode that horse up there all by himself, walked across that bridge, got the mail, walked back across that bridge. He's just a kid, gets on his horse and rides back. Well, I think to myself, riding a horse up there wasn't all that big a deal. But to walk across that bridge with the Columbia under it--And another thing, the same guy that bought the horse for him, a nice man, but he was from I think New York or someplace. He was just a laborer that came out to help lay the tracks. We got to know him a little bit. He and Edgar rode their horses down across the ferry at I assume Vernita. I'm not sure what ferry they went across, but I think it was the Vernita ferry, which was the Richmond ferry, I believe, by name, down to Ringgold Ranch. And he spent the summer there working for the Ringgold Ranch. Then in the fall, when it was school time, he rode his horse back up, came home. Now, this day and age, do you think I'd let my kid at that age do that? No. [LAUGHTER] Mom didn't know who lived at Ringgold. They weren't personal friends. But Edgar got to do a lot of stuff. And he also got to help the Indians run their horses in off the hill. They would have a roundup to brand the colts and count them or whatever you do when you run your horses in. And Edgar used to ride with them. He was not that old. And I think, wow. But Dean and I, we were the little ones. We had to make our own imaginary villains looking for us and things like that. Bauman: So you moved there in May of '41. Obviously, America got involved in World War II in December of '41. I wonder how you heard about Pearl Harbor and that sort of thing. Do you remember anything about that? Dawson: I think maybe somebody called the powerhouse. I think that's the way we found out about that. But I do remember how we found out what they were making at Hanford. Edgar, my brother, went up to the depot, got the mail, and came back. And our paper--that's where we got our paper--and he opened the paper, and he said to Mom, I know what they're doing at Hanford. They made a bomb. It was on the paper. Now, I don't know if that came out in the paper a time--if there was a time lapse from the time of dropping it till it was on the paper. But that's how we found out was when Edgar brought the paper in from the railroads. Bauman: So before that, what sort of impact did Hanford have on you? Did you know anything about what was going on? Dawson: No. The main impact, when DuPont took over, Browns and Sisks had to move their ranch. That brought in the fourth operator, which brought money to Dad and time off. That was our impact on our family. And at that point, they started taking up the railroad tracks, the rails, and reinforcing them, putting down heavy ones. Because at that point, or very soon after, Sagebrush Annie didn't come anymore. It was those huge, long trains, those heavy trains bringing the materials in to build Hanford. Prior to that, Sagebrush Annie just came down and picked up the fruit at Vernita and White Bluffs and turned around and went back. And it was a big long train with big two cars then and the caboose. And also we had to have identification. And I don't remember if all of us kids individually had to have identification, but Mom and Dad did before they could come through the checkpoint at Midway. Because Midway was then guarded by MPs, and we'd have to stop there, and they would check our identification and let us go through. And if we had company come to visit us, we had to verify who they were and what they were doing. That was the impact, yeah, one impact, yeah. Bauman: So you obviously knew something was going on because there were guards and the trains-- Dawson: Mm-hm. We had no clue. Bauman: What the guards were-- Dawson: No. Bauman: Somehow related to the war effort. Dawson: Yeah. And all of the ranchers, which were mainly fruit people, were forced out of Midway, the Midway-Vernita area. Midway, of course, it was fully constructed then, and it had a full crew of workers there to run that substation. No, we didn't. We all guessed. We were told that if we heard a siren, a warning siren, to immediately go to the railroad track, and there would be a train or someone, some vehicle coming up the railroad track to pick us up and take us to safety. So we assumed that it was some kind of poisonous gas or something like that. That was our assumption. But no, there was not a clue, not a clue. Bauman: And you had aunt and uncle and cousins in Hanford. Dawson: Mm-hmm. Bauman: And so they were still there in '43 and had to leave at that point, is that right? Dawson: Their place was taken over, yes, and they moved to Yakima. But by then, the six boys were grown, and we were teenagers, late teens, I think. And some of them--obviously I think there were four of them ended up in the military. But no. Bauman: So you knew that people, obviously the people in those communities had had to leave and-- Dawson: Mm-hmm, yeah. The reason we didn't have to is that they needed someone to man the powerhouse. They needed those operators. So they were--Dad and the rest were allowed to stay. The Indians could come in, in and out. But they were not allowed to go down to their fishing areas down at Hanford. They were also blocked out. But they could come into Priest Rapids and spend the winter and go out. And I don't know if they had to have identification or not. I assume that they probably did as a group, maybe. I don't know. I have no idea. Bauman: And then how long did your family live in Priest Rapids? Dawson: From May of 1941 until September of '47 when the house burned down. Then, when we went to Vernita, we were there until--we were there September of '47. '48 was the flood. So we went to Yakima in '48, 1948. Bauman: And what was the reason for moving to Yakima? Was it the flood, or-- Dawson: No, it was the fact that they had transferred Dad. Dad got a job at the PP&L substation in Union Gap, I think, or maybe it was Naches. Anyway, they transferred him. By this time, my little brother and sister were approaching school age. Dean and I were in junior high. Edgar was in high school. JoAnn, of course, she was out of high school. She was working in Sunnyside High School in the office as a secretary by that time. But it was just time that we left. Yeah. Bauman: So, you were there from '41 to '48 in the area. Dawson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Bauman: I wonder if there's anything we haven't talked about in terms of things you think it's important for people to know about the area at the time, of what it was like living there, growing up there? Dawson: Well, it was isolated. It was an isolated area to live. But it was a community, a close community. The ranch house had big wheat field--or not wheat fields, alfalfa fields. See, there were one big long one and a thin one down there. And, like for example when it was hay cutting time, they had the bailer, and they'd bail the hay. And Cassie would sit on one side, the wire that poked through and someone had to grab it and stick it in, my sister JoAnn worked on one side. My brother Edgar bucked the bales. He was a real strong kid for his age. [LAUGHTER] He bucked the bales. And lambing time was, for me growing up as a little kid, I loved lambing time, because they would bring--it was a sheep ranch, by the way. And they would bring somewhere around 2,000 head of sheep, maybe 3,000. I don't know, somewhere in that vicinity. They would trail them down the river, and we could see them coming. And that was so much fun, you cannot believe it. And Bob Sisk, the senior, the eldest of them all, he was really a great old man. And he would put up with me tagging after him every hour that I wasn't in school and Mom didn't have me doing something. During lambing season, Dean and I would be up there. And we'd hang out in the lambing sheds. And a couple of the Indian fellows would come and help with the lambing. Cy Tamanawash was one of them that I remember. And it was just a lot of fun. And Bob never talked to us much. He'd just put up with us tagging after him. And he gave us a bum lamb for a pet. And we raised it. His name was Joe, and we raised it with our dog. And I think it was probably the only lamb in history--the only sheep in history that chased cars. And cars coming into Priest Rapids was pretty rare, and our dog would go out and chase the car. And the lamb would go with him. And the lamb would chase the car even as a grown sheep. And that would get the driver's attention when a sheep was chasing his car. And also what was really strange, it would go swimming in the canal with the dog. Now, sheep don't go swimming. But anyway, I think the lamb thought it was a dog. But Bob gave us that lamb, and Mother raised it behind the kitchen stove in the winter when it was cold. This little lamb was in the box, and she'd get up and feed it milk every couple hours. Mom worked real hard. But that was a fun part was when Browns had their sheep in. And then in the spring, they'd separate the youths that had twin lambs and the ones that had single lambs. And Bob always took--Bob Sisk always took the herd that had the twin lambs, because it was trickier to keep all those sheep together. And so as soon as school was out, boy, I'd be out, and I'd track him down, find out where he was. And I'm sure I sat and talked his ear off. He just occasionally would tell me a story about getting a bear attack when they had the sheep up in the mountains and stuff like that, bear stories. And I realized when I was grown that they couldn't have been true, some of them. But that was all right. I didn't know. I was a kid. And one time, one spring, he came up to the fence, called me out, and said, I got something for you. Reach in my saddlebag. So I did, and here's his old red handkerchief, all something was in it. And it was a little baby jackrabbit, a little tiny guy. His eyes weren't even open. He had found it and brought me one. So, needless to say, it was Mom that got up every couple hours and fed that little rabbit throughout the night. We got it going till it was big enough it sat on our fingers, made a little puddle, and it would drink the milk out of our hand. And we raised that rabbit until it was a great big rabbit. And then I think--I think the cat killed it. But that was Penny the rabbit. So those were things, just stories. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your stories and memories. Dawson: Mm-hmm. Bauman: I really appreciate it. Any other last things that you want to-- Dawson: One thing I thought was interesting and I don't know how many people ever saw it was the balloon that was shot down at Cold Creek. We were going out to town one evening--one afternoon, late afternoon. And we came up off the Vernita hill up, and we were headed toward Yakima at the Y. And there were so many security guards you could not believe it. They were everywhere in their cars. So we slowed down, obviously, went around the corner to go to Yakima or Sunnyside, either one. And out in the field was a big dirigible balloon that was deflating. And they just waved us straight through. Just go for it. So we did. But of course this added to my brother Dean and my imagination. [LAUGHTER] We knew there was an enemy had come in on that balloon. And he was hiding up in the canyons behind our house. We knew that. We really had to be careful. No mention of that anywhere in anything, that balloon, until after the war. And it was shot down. And I'm not really absolutely certain what, but it was either a Japanese balloon--I think it was a Japanese balloon that they had shot down. But I'm sure it's somewhere in the records around here, but we did get to see that. Bauman: So you saw it. You drove past it. Dawson: Yeah. It was still inflated, but it was down. The ends of it had deflated down. But I didn't know there were that many securities in the world that were around that site. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I was going to ask you if, after the war ended, did the security change at all in terms of your parents having to show identification and that sort of thing. Did that continue still after the war, do you know? Dawson: We couldn't go into Hanford. We were stopped at about--I think that we could then go back and forth there at Midway, but I can't really remember for sure. I can't really remember for sure, but I do know that we could not go into the Hanford site. And it would be, if I remember right, it would be about where Vernita Bridge is now, where Bruggemanns’ land is. I think that was as far as we could go. Yeah. Bauman: All right, well, thank you again. I appreciate you coming in-- Dawson: Okay. [LAUGHTER Bauman: --and sharing your memories. Dawson: It was fun. I love to tell stories, as you can well tell. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01-11-42 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 244 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1941-1947 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Clark, Frank and Nell Stradling, Edward Ordstrand, John Van Brooks, Les Grewell, Joe Sisk, Bob and Della McGhee, Russel and Cassie Mays, Bill Strike, Jake Bell, Leo and Effiel Tamanawash, Robert/Bobby Rumtuck, Lester Buck, Johnny Tamanawash,Cy Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Murrel Dawson Description An account of the resource An interview with Murrel Dawson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-07-6 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-24: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) DuPont https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa47502c08171bf80f5b805fefabd2e46.jpg 1dcfd89b533e26e399b9d34554899883 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6660f59b710ac080c60889fce79ca005.mp4 7c1924e452a95fb176cdede01fe84200 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Curt Donahue Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Donahue_Curt Camera man: Rolling here. I'll set this while you do your-- Bauman: Okay. We'll go ahead and get started. I'm going to start by just having you say your name and then spell it. Donahue: Oh, okay. It's Curt Donahue. It's C-U-R-T D-O-N-A-H-U-E. Bauman: Thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman. Today is August 7th of 2013. And we're conducting oral history interview with Mr. Donahue on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking about Mr. Donahue's experiences working in the Hanford site. So I'd like to start maybe with having you talk about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when you came, and that sort of thing. Donahue: Okay. In 1944, my father was out of work, and we lived in White Salmon, Washington. And the superintendent of schools was receiving a job here in Richland as the principal at one of the schools and asked my dad if he was interested in having a custodian job here. And he was. He wanted any job. So we moved here in September of 1944 and lived in one of the original houses. I was nine years old, and I tell people now I used to roam the streets of Richland before they were streets. It was a very unique period to grow up and a unique town to grow up in. There were so many things that we were able to do that kids just can't do today. So when I graduated from high school, I went to work in the 700 Area to begin with. And, after a few months, transferred out to the 300 Area and ended up working really all over. I was in regional monitoring and then radiation monitoring. Bauman: So let's talk a little bit first about your years growing up here. You mentioned that there were sort of things that kids could do here that— Donahue: Yeah, we— Bauman: Do you have any stories or memories about that? Donahue: Yeah, one of the things that I remember most, and that was to be able to sleep outside. Just take a blanket and a piece of canvas and roll up in the backyard and sleep outside. The only hazards were the mosquitoes, and sometimes I'd wake up with an eye shut and a fat lip. And then there was a stream from an irrigation flue that ran along Wellsian Way. And my wife doesn't believe me, but there used to be a lake there. And there was a wooded area right where the flue emptied. And it was kind of a pool there and a sandy beach. And several of my friends and I would go camp overnight there, three blocks from home. But we were off in another world, and we really enjoyed having that freedom. Bauman: So this is near Wellsian Way? Is that sort of near where Fred Meyer is now? Donahue: Yeah. Where Fred Meyer is right now is actually the spot that had the sandy beach. And we would bring potatoes from home and bury them in the sand, build a campfire over them, and then have a potato snack before we went to sleep. [LAUGHTER] It was a lot of fun. Bauman: And you said you moved into one of the early homes. Where was that, what complex? Donahue: That was on Fitch, right on the corner of Fitch and Douglass. And the people that lived in the other end, the Browns, actually had the first option to buy, but they chose not to, so my parents bought the house and remodeled it and lived there for a good many years. 38 years, I think. Bauman: So what schools did you go to then? Donahue: I went to Lewis and Clark. In fact, that's where my dad was a custodian in those early years. And then I also went to school at Bethlehem Lutheran in Kennewick a couple of years. And my freshman year of high school, I spent at Concordia Academy in Portland, and then came to Columbia High School in Richland for the last three years. In fact, we're having our 60th anniversary this year. Bauman: So '53? Donahue: '53, yeah. Bauman: How big was the class, do you remember? Donahue: I think the class was 159. I know I graduated 59th out of that group. I was kind of in the middle. Bauman: Other memories of Richland at the time? Were there community events, any sort of special events that you remember? Donahue: Yeah. Atomic Frontier Days, of course, was our big event every year. And the church that I went to, the youth group usually put together some kind of a float. Sometimes it was maybe dressing up in something patriotic and riding on the back of a flatbed truck. But it was fun, and the people enjoyed it. And also, there was a group called the Mini Singers, and I was a member of that group and put on concerts every year until I outgrew it and was no longer considered a Mini Singer. When your voice changes from soprano to tenor, you are no longer invited. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: My sense of Richland at the time, especially in 1944, there's still wartime--'45, that there were people coming from all over the United States to work here. Is that your experience growing up? Donahue: Oh, yes. Yeah. Every other classmate was from a different state, and it made for interesting living. They all had stories. Some of them were worth retelling, [LAUGHTER] and some of them were not. Bauman: Let's talk about your work, then. You said you started basically right after you graduated high school, working at Hanford, 1953. Donahue: Yeah. Actually, in August of that year, I got hired on. I worked in the reproduction shop in the 700 Area. My first job was a back tender on an ozalid machine. And that merely meant that when the ozalid prints came off that machine, they'd come out in a continuous sheet, so you'd have to trim each one, fold it up, and package it according to the orders. So you had to be rather speedy to keep up with the machine. And I managed to work my way through several different promotions in there and got to run a good number of the machines—Photostat machine, offset printer, things that we don't use anymore, really, because of the new reproduction facilities. Bauman: So what sorts of things were you printing up there? Donahue: It was configurations of equipment that was being built out at the project, buildings, and a lot of floor plans and that sort of thing. You really didn't have time to look at what it was, other than here’s the edge of it, cut it, and fold it up and keep moving. Bauman: I want to go back quickly to before you started working there. Growing up here, how much did you know about Hanford and what was going on there? Donahue: We knew nothing until they dropped the bomb. And then the Villager newspaper had that massive headline, and the word got out what was going on here. And there was a parade leaving town. There were, I guess, a goodly number of people who wanted no part of it or were afraid of it, essentially. Bauman: So your recollection is a lot of people left at some point after that. Donahue: Yeah. Bauman: But by the time you went to work in '53, obviously, you knew what was-- Donahue: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we did. Bauman: So you said you started the 700 Area, and then at some point, you moved to the 300 Area? Donahue: 300 Area, and a group that was called regional monitoring. And the function there was to gather samples of vegetation, water, soil, and air samples and bring them back to the lab. So all we did was drive around the country, collecting samples and bring them back. Bauman: So you would get samples from various parts of the area? Donahue: Yeah. One route might be picking up water samples in all of the 100 Areas. Another route would be vegetation samples along the highway from 300 Areas to Two West. Soil samples in most anywhere. And then we'd do, with a Geiger counter, monitor about a 100 square foot area plot, here and there. And if we found large radioactive particles, we’d scoop them up in an ice cream cup and bring them back to the lab for their analysis. Bauman: So at that point, it’d go to someone else who would do the analysis? Or were you involved in that analysis? Donahue: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. Bauman: After you brought it back to the lab, that would go to someone else? Donahue: It would go to the lab. Yeah. We were not really part of the lab, other than we were the collectors. So we didn't know what the results were. Bauman: And so if you detected something that seemed to suggest that there was something present, you would scoop it up and-- Donahue: No. On one trip—it was a cross country trip through the sagebrush. And on my way to Rattlesnake Mountain, and an eagle, a golden eagle, jumped up alongside of me and got about five feet off the ground and right back down, and running, and it turned in front of me, and I hit it. And it was injured, so I killed it and brought it into the lab, and they did an autopsy on it and gave it back to me, frozen. And so I had it mounted. It was a 59 inch wingspan. Beautiful bird. It was a shame to have hit it, but I didn't know why it wasn't getting off the ground until they gave it back to me. It had a whole rabbit in its stomach. It was a little too heavy [LAUGHTER] to lift off the ground, I guess. Bauman: Too much weight. [LAUGHTER] So about how many people were, in terms of number of people, were involved in going out and giving this monitor? Donahue: As I remember, about 15, I think. Bauman: And so how long did you do that? Donahue: Oh, almost two years, I think. And then I went into radiation monitoring. Bauman: Okay. And so with the radiation monitoring, what did that involve? Donahue: Dress up and tail a pipe fitter. Make sure it's okay where he's at, what he's doing, that he doesn't get over exposed. And just keep monitoring that process. And that was primarily what I did in the Hot Semi-Works in the 200 East Area. And then the last months that I worked there, I was going school at CBC and wanted to be on a rotating shift. And so then I monitored for the mobile x-ray crew. And we might end up anywhere in the area to x-ray something that they were interested in. Bauman: And so your job was to make sure that people didn't too much exposure? Donahue: To set up a barrier, and we'd find out what it is we're going to x-ray. And the technician would say, well, I'm going to have to use this much amperes and so on. And so I'd get an idea of, really, how far away do we need to keep people? And we'd set up that kind of a barrier and then do the job and get out of there, go do another one somewhere. It was interesting. Bauman: Yeah. And were there dosimeters or something that you would check out? Was that part of it, as well, or--? Donahue: I had a—I don't remember the name of the instrument now. That's a long time ago. It read rads, rather than millirads as a gauge. And so that's the tool that was used to monitor that operator and myself. And also would walk the perimeter to make sure that we had the level as low as we needed to. Bauman: So this was in sort of mid to late 1950s? Donahue: Yeah. I left in November of 1957. I got caught in an ROF and, having just got into radiation monitoring, I was in the lower 10%, and that's about—I think I was the last one in that group to be laid off. Bauman: And what did you do, then, after that? Donahue: I went into fraternal life insurance for a short time over in Olympia and applied at Boeing. And because of the time I spent monitoring for mobile x-ray, I got on as an x-ray technician in the Boe-Mark tank shop. And then worked my way from there through engineering. And then my last assignment before I retired was the engineer operations manager for Commercial Avionics Systems. Bauman: And that was all at Boeing and-- Donahue: Spent 36 years there. Bauman: So during your time in radiation monitoring, was there ever an incident where someone did—was exposed to too much or anything along those lines and sort of incidences? Donahue: We had a problem—excuse me. At the Hot Semi-Works, there was a rupture in one of the lines going to tank farm. And so they brought in a big drag line to dig that up and connect to it and get a loop around the other side of where the break was. And I was monitoring that, and—it was a TP instrument that I was trying to think of earlier—and had it on a probe, a 30 foot probe. And I was halfway down in the hole, monitoring every scoop that the drag line brought up. And he finally brought up one that meter went off scale, and I come scrambling up out of the hole to get to where I could get a reading to determine what exposure I had and what the people up around it had, because there was 15, 20 people watching this excavation. And when I come running up out of the hole, they went running away. I was in the office, I think, for two weeks after that. Just kept me out of any more exposure for that length of time. Bauman: Right. And was that sort of the practice if someone had been exposed, they had to stay-- Donahue: Yeah. Depending on what level of exposure you got, I knew guys who had to sit for a couple of days was all. And some had even longer than I did. Those things happened in that kind of business. And you deal with it the best way we know how. Bauman: Yeah. Obviously, secrecy, security were very much a part of Hanford. Did that impact you at all? Donahue: Well, security was, I think, very good, and you were checked everywhere you went. And by the time I was working out there, there wasn't so much secrecy anymore. Processes were, and it didn't seem like any one person knew the whole process. And the kind of work that I did, I was not interested in the process. I was interested in keeping somebody safe and myself safe. So processes weren't high on my priority list. Bauman: Did you have to have special clearance to-- Donahue: Oh, yeah. I had a secret clearance. Bauman: In terms of getting on the site, did you drive your own car? Did you take buses? Donahue: No, drove cars and Jeeps and Dodge Power Wagon. I had the distinction of getting a Dodge Power Wagon stuck twice. Once because of a coworker told me, oh, you can get through there, and got about 15 feet into this wash that soaked to the running boards. It took two of those large Mack wreckers to lift that thing out of there. And then the other time was down by Horn Rapids. In the wintertime, the ground had frozen and then had thawed, so there was about an inch of thawed mud on top of the ice, and you could not get any traction at all. And it had to drag it out of there. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What you would say were sort of the biggest challenges in working at Hanford for yourself, and what were some of the best rewards about your job there? Donahue: I think the challenge was—particularly the jobs that I had on the project—were one of being alert to whatever radiation aspects, whatever exposure you were getting. Make sure you were alert to it so that you knew how to deal with it, how to handle it. And, of course, out on the project, when you're running around with a Geiger counter out in the sagebrush, you're pretty alert for rattlesnakes, too. And some of us had those experiences. But I guess I never considered what challenges we were facing. I have a very healthy respect for radiation, radioactive material. I was never afraid of it. And I think that the guys I worked with had the same attitude. Bauman: And so the most rewarding part of working there, then? Donahue: I think that when you took a guy into a cell in Semi-Works or a PUREX facility, and you brought him out, and you could tell them that, hey, you didn't get anything significant today. And the thanks that they showed and displayed, thanks for watching my back, so to speak. That was the most rewarding. That, and just the people you worked with. I can't recall anyone I worked with that I had really dislike for. Everybody was fun to be around. Bauman: A lot of the students that I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Obviously—you were working at Hanford in the 1950s, which was, really, in many ways, the height of the Cold War. I wonder if you have any thoughts about that in part for people who were born post-Cold War, things that you think would be important for them to understand about that period and working at Hanford during that time? Donahue: I don't think people who were born really do understand. We grew up having the fear—in fact, the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, we lived in White Salmon, and we went to church in Hood River, Oregon. And that toll bridge that we crossed, the toll taker told us that we had just been attacked. So on the way back from church, as a six-year-old, I'm looking downstream, afraid they're coming up the river. And that's kind of what we lived under for the next several years. And, of course, when those wars with Germany and Japan were ended, and it wasn't very long and we were into the Cold War. And lived again with, get under your desk, and this is what you do, and we practice it. And then the whole time working out here, well, until Gorbachev became the Premier of Russia, we lived under that threat. And so that was just the way you grew up, and I don't think people who have lived since then or even were real young in those latter years can really comprehend what that was like. And would I live that way again if I needed to? Yes. It was a time when everybody pitched in and did their part. Bauman: I wonder if there are any other incidents or events or humorous things that happened during your time working at Hanford that sort of stand out to you? Donahue: Yeah. The night after we found out the Russians had launched Sputnik, the x-ray technician and I, at the time that we were told it would be passing over, we stopped and got out where we were away from light, and we saw it going across the sky. And I just remember the eerie feeling to be able to look up there and see something that people had put up there. And it was working. And what did that mean? Where are we going to go from here? And of course, we've gone a long ways from there. And fortunately, we caught up and passed everybody. That was probably the thing that I would say stuck out most as a happening. Bauman: Sure. And then how would you overall sort of assess Hanford as a place to work during your years there? Donahue: I'm sorry. Say again? Bauman: How would you assess Hanford as a place to work? How was it as a place to work? Donahue: Oh, I was happy there. If I hadn't gotten laid off, I'd have retired there, I'm sure. I think it was a good place to work. I had fair management, and I thought I was paid a fair salary for what I was doing. I was very happy there. And I was disappointed to get caught in that kind of a situation, but I understood that it was seniority, and so you just roll with the punches and deal with it. Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about or that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like to? Donahue: Hm. I have to tell one story. We were about 11 years old, I guess. The superintendent of schools at that time was Mr. Fergen, and his youngest son was the same age as me, and they lived in the house next door to the first house we lived in, one of the original homes, just east of the laundry dry cleaners. And Truman and I would wander, like I said, the streets before they were streets. And he was just wild about animals and plants and that sort of thing. And that's what he ended up doing in life, too. He studied biology. And one day, we were wandering around, and here was an irrigation ditch that had pretty well run dry. There was a dead muskrat. And he got so excited, and he picked that muskrat up, and he cradled it like it was a little baby, took it all the way home, and I thought, Truman, you're nuts. You have no idea what that thing's been—the next day at Lewis and Clark, he had it on a cart with the principal and going around to each classroom and giving all kinds of details about how the muskrat lived, and showing them their teeth. And I just—blew me away. I thought when he got home with that thing, his parents were going to tell him to throw it in the garbage can. [LAUGHTER] Here he showed the whole school! Bauman: Good story. Donahue: Ah, there's lots of other stories. My first job was selling newspapers in the cafeteria. And the cafeteria is the old buildings right across from the Federal Building. And I'd sell a Spokesman Review, and there were a number of men who would, when they finished reading their paper, as they went out to get on a bus or on one of the stretch cars, would give me the paper back, resell it. So it was kind of fun. Bauman: This was a cafeteria for Hanford workers? Donahue: Yeah. There were some big shots in there that would, because they had these stretch '42 Chevys, I think they were, that they'd piece together, and they had about four doors, five doors on each side. And some of these guys rode those, so you knew they were pretty much up there. And I believe that one of my customers was Enrico Fermi, because he was here incognito, and when I see pictures of him, I guess one of the guys that gave me my paper back. You don't forget those guys. Bauman: So what year would this have been around when you-- Donahue: Well, that would have been in '44, early '45. Bauman: Shortly after you got here. Donahue: Yeah. And then about mid '45, I got a paper route of the whole south end. Then I was in the big money. Right? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So what paper was that? Donahue: Spokesman Review. Yeah. I earned enough to buy a brand new Columbia bike, and I used that for the next several years, delivering papers. That was a proud moment. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Sure. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today— Donahue: Certainly. Bauman: --and sharing your experiences and memories. I appreciate it. Donahue: I'm glad to be here, and it's fun to reminisce, too. So it's been fun for me. Bauman: Good, great. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area 100 Area 300 Area 200 Area Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:34:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 207kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-1957 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1953-1957 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Curt Donahue Description An account of the resource An interview with Curt Donahue conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-7 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 700 Area Boeing Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fadf573f6b16463a33ec6849c49d23ebc.jpg 12432b847d8976b43edbd4ed179f1df6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6fb28b74865c59fa983d59478c172fcb.mp4 4fc0bcd83000ceedee84a5c50d7f1d95 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniels, Edmon Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Daniels_Edmon Edmon Daniels: [WHISTLING] Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I guess we're ready to start. Daniels: Okay. Bauman: Okay. Let's start by having you state your name and spell your last name for us. Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. D-A-N-I-E-L-S. Bauman: And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date is November 20th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So wondering if we could start by having you just tell us when you arrived in the area here. What brought you here? Daniels: Well, I arrived in '51. 1951. And my parents was here. So the family moved here. Bauman: And did they come for jobs at Hanford, or--? Daniels: They came--my father came in '43 when he heard about the Hanford Project. And my mother joined him in '44. Bauman: And what sorts of jobs did they have at Hanford? Daniels: Well, at that time, it was just construction. And my mother worked in the mess hall and cleaning up the barracks. Bauman: So how old were you in 1951 then, when you came up? Daniels: 1951. You know, that's the deal. I never tell my age. [LAUGHTER] I was in grade school. Bauman: Okay. So, what are your first memories of arriving here as a young person? Daniels: Well, as a young kid, you're just in a new place. And memories are just meeting people. But, I guess it was—there was quite a few relatives here at that time. Just meeting them. Because I really didn't know--I hadn't been around my father that much at a young age. He left when I was just--wasn't that old. And my mother left after that, so. It was just really just being with them more than anything else. Bauman: And so where did you migrate from? Where had you been living before? Daniels: Texas. The eastern part of Texas. Bauman: Okay. And so, your parents were here. And were there other family members as well? Daniels: Well, I had uncles here and some aunts. One aunt, I think, was here. Yes. And cousins. Bauman: Okay. So where did you live and what school did you go to? Daniels: Grade school, I went to Whittier. And went to junior high--it was junior high then, it's middle school now. I went to junior high--that was the only one junior high in Pasco. And one high school at Pasco. And then I had a few classes at CBC. Bauman: Okay. So what was Pasco like, growing up in the area in the '50s and '60s? Daniels: Well, growing up, I tell people it's the best place in the world to be because you could do things. And, as a kid, you do whatever you want to do. There was no restrictions whatsoever. Then as you get older, you find that there are restrictions. [LAUGHTER] But as a kid, you just go and enjoy playing. And that's what we did. My father told me, I want you to play and have fun. Because when you get older, you'll start working and you'll work longer than you ever played. And I thank him for that because he was definitely right. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, in terms of Pasco itself then, you remember any specific or special community events or things happening at the time? Daniels: Well, the only thing we had--and that was probably any place, Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland--was baseball. We had summer baseball. There was no, like we have now, AEU basketball or anything like that. We played baseball in the summer. And my father'd been an old baseball player. He was my first sort of like coach, was my father. So that's what we did during the summer. In the wintertime, we just threw snowballs at each other. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Bauman: With Pasco at the time, was it racially integrated, or? Daniels: Yes it was. It was. We live on the east of town, which is on the east side of the railroad tracks. And, boy, it really wasn't—because all blacks live on the east side of town. But the house we lived in, there was four houses on the street, and we were the only black family on the street. But as a kid, that doesn't bother you because, man, kids are kids. We just had fun. And I was the youngest kid on the block. So, it was just like going down the street and saying hello to everyone, not worrying about color or anything like that. Bauman: What about community institutions like churches? Were there churches in the area growing up, or? Daniels: Yes. There was two churches right around the corner from us. A Baptist church and a Methodist church. And my mother took us to the Methodist church. That was the church I got married in. Oh, I think all my family got married--no, just my brother and I got married in that church. Bauman: And what's the name of the church then? Daniels: St James-- Bauman: St James. Daniels: --Methodist Church, yes. Bauman: Okay. So you grew up then , from 1951 on, in Pasco. And at some point you started working at Hanford? Daniels: Yes. And I was working--well, I was working at--well, I first got an interview for Hanford, oh boy, I think it was like in '62. '61 or '62. At the old 703 Building, as a clerk typist. And everyone then, you had to take a typing test. And it's funny, my grandkids always wonder, what is a typewriter? [LAUGHTER] Yep. So I was supposed to go to work, and then I got called into the service. So I didn't go to work at Hanford until '66. Bauman: Okay. And when you did start in '66, what area were you working with, what sort of jobs? Daniels: 300 Area. 300 Area. I worked in the mail room. The old 3706 Building. Bauman: Oh, okay. And how long did you work there then? Daniels: I worked in the mail room, I think it was maybe--I worked there from '66 to '68. And then I went into the operations department. Bauman: Okay. And where on site did you work in terms of operations? Daniels: Operations, we worked all over. Our main building was 325, but we worked at Two East, Two West, 100 F, all over. And all of the 300s. Bauman: Okay. And what sort of tasks or jobs did you have in the operations department? Daniels: Operations was all the buildings. Taking care of the fans and all of those things. And just making sure the building was temperature-wise okay. Bauman: Okay. And how long did you work in operations? Daniels: I worked in operations for--well, in operations I worked 38 years in operations. But from operations I went into [INAUDIBLE] work. But it was still the same department, just different. Bauman: Okay. And so which contractor or contractors were you working for? Daniels: Battelle Northwest. Bauman: Okay. The whole time it was-- Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. So in the work you did at Hanford, did you have to have special safety training of any kind? Daniels: Yes, yes. Lots of safety training. Mask and the PCs, protective clothing and all that. Lots of work with protective clothing. Bauman: So when you say protective clothing, what sorts of things are you talking about? Daniels: Well some jobs, we would go in, we would have to cover up all parts. No skin showing whatsoever. Have two pair of pants, two pair of shoes. Well, not--pair of shoes, rubbers, and then maybe the rubber covers over those. Masks, and the whole works. The rubber gloves. We went into some very hot areas. Bauman: So you have to have a dosimeter or something? Daniels: Yes. A dosimeter. And extra dosimeters also. Bauman: Did you ever have any incidents during that time where you had exposure, or? Daniels: Well mostly--well, you always got some exposure. But I know most of the time that we would be working, if there was four or us or ten of us, we'd have so many RCTs around us that if your badge went off, they would just evacuate the whole area. Well, the room you was working in. And find out exactly what was what. The exposure. And then, you might go back in. Bauman: Okay. And so, was it pretty common for you to--so you did it all over the site, right? Different buildings? Daniels: Yes. Yes. All over the site. Bauman: Okay. Of the work you did, what was the most challenging part of it? Was there some aspect of what you did that was the most challenging, or? Daniels: Well, the most challenging part is when you get completely dressed with everything, and I'm looking at you, and I can't tell who you are or who he is. So we tape our name on our back. And that way, if I needed something from John, I'd see if he'd turn around and I could see. Okay, John, I need this. That was the most challenging thing. And then, confined space area. That's very challenging. It didn't bother me, but some people could not go into a confined space. They'd sort of tear the room up. That happened to one guy. [LAUGHTER] He did tear the room up. But he was--we wasn't even--he was at the whole body counter and they closed the door. And at that time they did not have the TV cameras to watch the people. And all they heard was banging, banging, banging on the door. The guy just went crazy. Claustrophobia. So after that they put the cameras so they could check on the people that was inside. But it never bothered me, but some people couldn't take that at all. Bauman: Right. And when you started working there, was there bus transportation out to the site still, or-- Daniels: No. There was bus transportation for us, but we always reported it to 300. And then we would get the van or a truck and go to the other areas. Bauman: And go from there. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. During your time working out there, were there any sort of incidents or bizarre or strange things that happened? Or something that's sort of memorable that stands out in your mind? Daniels: Boy. Nothing, really. There was things that happened, but it was nothing that so traumatized me that--no, not really, no. Bauman: So in Hanford site, the mission changed at some point, right, from production to clean up. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Did that shift happen while you were working out there, and did that impact-- Daniels: Most of the cleanup started right after I left. I always tell them that when I left, the guys couldn't keep up with everything so they had to start tearing the buildings down because I was gone and the work couldn't get done. [LAUGHTER] So it's a good story. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: It is a good story. [LAUGHTER] How was Hanford as a place to work, overall, as you look back at your time working there? Daniels: Well, it was really great because you made, at that time--I don't know how it is now--but that time, you made more than most anyone else, you know, in—probably in the U.S., doing that kind of work. And it was probably the only place that that kind of work was going on. So it was a great place to work. There was some people that you worked for that wasn't so great, but you just did your job. And, like I said, eight hour days, ten hour days, and then sometime--I remember one time, I went to work Friday morning and I worked all the way until Monday afternoon when I went home. Now, I wasn't working all that time, I just had to be there. So I could go to the office and—I don’t want to say—sleep. I could go to--but they had to have one of us there, and I was the only one available at the time. So a payday like that is not bad. When you're getting double time from 8 o'clock Friday up until Monday at 4:00, 5:00, or whatever time you get off. You make darn near two weeks’ pay in a weekend, so can't complain about that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And were your parents still working there when you started working? Daniels: No. My father retired right after I started working there. And my mother worked there--I don't know how many years she worked out there. But when they closed the old Hanford down, then there wasn't any jobs for black ladies. So she didn't work there anymore. But my father worked construction there. He always tell me that him and my uncle poured the first mud--concrete--for D Area and the 300 Area, really. So they was sort of pioneers of their time. Bauman: Right. During this time--'50s, '60s--were there civil rights activities going on? Daniels: Yes, there was. There was lots of civil rights activities going on. Even here in the Tri-Cities. They had a march over in Kennewick. And even in Pasco because--well, just like it had been all the time. If you were black, you could not buy a house on the west side of town. They would show it to you. But at that time, houses were very cheap. So if a house was $10,000, they would show the house to you, it might be $16,000. So eventually most of them just lived where they were. And then, some of my cousins moved to Richland later. Bought some very expensive houses. I think they was like $5,000 or $6,000. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Was there like a NAACP or other organizations here locally, do you know? Daniels: Yes, there was. NAACP was there. E. M. McGee, he was the president of the NAACP. And he moved next door to us when I was a kid. And then, eventually, he went to work out at Hanford. Bauman: And then, when you were going, like say, to Pasco High School and stuff, did whites and blacks--was it fairly interracial there? Or was there maybe racial-- Daniels: Well, at that time, we went to school together. The only time it was really interracial was when you were in grade school. In grade school, I can remember going to other kids' homes, because, like I said, you're a kid. And we would go in and the parents would fix us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And they would be the same thing if they came to my house. As you get older, you started separating. But I still have a couple friends that we have been friends--females—we have been friends over 60 years. And we're still friends. It never--we were just friends. And that's the way I love it about that. It didn't matter that she was white and I was black, we were friends. And we're still friends. Bauman: And how about the Hanford--working at Hanford itself? Daniels: Well, when I started working out there, I think I was the youngest black person out there. I had some cousins working out there. My uncle worked out there. He was an older gentleman, but he worked in the biology department. My uncle had a college degree. But he was working at a job that probably a 15-year-old could do. And, I don't know, but some people say his supervisor didn't even have a high school education. But, my uncle was a school teacher when he was younger. He worked out there, and a couple of my other cousins worked out there. But they didn't get hired until they was older. So they did not get--they may have put in--I don't think my uncle put in 20 years out there at the Hanford project. And my cousins, they put in maybe 22, 23 years. Something like that. Bauman: I was going to go back and ask you about your parents. They came during the war in '43, '44. Did they live in Pasco, or did they live in the barracks out— Daniels: They lived in the barracks. My father said when he came, they slept in tents because there was--I think he said there was maybe one barracks that was built. They slept in tents. And you can imagine, they went that it wasn't very many people there, and maybe in two months, there was 50,000 people there. They built that place very fast, because they had to. And the strange part about it is--everything was segregated by gender and by race--and my parents would tell me things that they couldn't tell other people. But they told me later that it was really segregated, they even had different mess halls. The blacks eat in this mess hall, the whites--and then, I think if you worked graveyard, you may have ate in the same mess hall. But it was just really weird because I took my father out there one year, and he was showing me where he lived and where my mother lived. And all I see is tumbleweeds. And he knew where everything was. Where the baseball field was, and everything. And here's the funny part. My mother and father, like on weekends if they wanted to get together, they would catch the bus to go to Yakima because they could not get a motel at the Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland. And here's the ironic part. They could get a room in Yakima--an Oriental guy gave them a room in Yakima. And what are they building out there? Something to go over. And he told me that, and I said, man, that's crazy. But that's the way things work. Just really weird. But it was just strange. But out there, my mother, she cleaned barracks and worked in the restroom. The restroom? [LAUGHTER] The lunch room, the mess hall. Lunch room or restroom! But she said that they had the black rooms. And here's a part that no one ever tells. They had barracks just--barracks set up just for some homosexual guys. And no one--I tell people that, and no one--my mother said that was the best barracks to clean up because they were so clean. But it was so bad, and you can imagine that--okay, I'm over here. There's a big 10 foot fence to separate the men's from the ladies’. And she said it got so bad that they would go in--and a couple of ladies went in, and guys in there, I guess tried to attack them. And so they would have to send someone in to the barracks and get all the guys out before the ladies could go in and clean. But these things wasn't told because--well, everything out there was secret. But my parents told me later. And I would tell people about this, nah. I said, well I don't think my parents would lie to me. As I got older, they told me lots of things that happened out there. You think about it, it's a strange way to live. I'm married, but I can't go--well, they had it sort of like a day room where you could go and talk to your wife. And at a certain hour, say goodbye and go back across the fence, and go to your barracks. Maybe that's why they had such long marriages. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did they stay there then, through the rest of the war? In the barracks, do you know? Daniels: Yes. And then they moved, I meant the trailer camp out there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Daniels: And then, my parents, they moved to Pasco. Bauman: Pasco. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were making at the time, and during the war? Daniels: Well, I looked it up. And this is really weird. Because my father was working in Utah when he heard about the Manhattan Project. And it was $0.90 was--I think was like the lowest wage. $0.90 an hour up to $1.00. And I think they made like $1.00 an hour, which was lots of money. My mother made, I think it was $.050 an hour. So, if my father was at a $1.00, so they made $1.50 an hour. That was lots of money. Because I just visited one of my cousins who is 91 years old. And he said that he was working for $5.00 a week. And a week wasn't Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday—you worked half a day on Saturday. So he wasn't getting $0.50 a day. So you can imagine my parents making that amount of money. Which is—and that's what drew so many people here was the wages. And electricians made I think like $1.25 an hour. Well $1.25 an hour when you think some guys, it takes them all week to make $5.00. [LAUGHTER] And they worked more than eight hours a day. Lots of time, they worked 12 hours a day. And so, money-wise, my parents was probably rich. [LAUGHTER] Yes, indeed. Now--well, at that time I think minimum wage, if you had a job that paid you minimum wage, was $0.25. I think that was passed in 1939. So, $1.00 an hour at that time was quite a lot of money. Bauman: Right. So your dad heard about it, got a job, and then your mother-- Daniels: Yes, my mother joined him later. Yes. Bauman: Probably, as you said, making a lot more money than they could have in east Texas. Daniels: Probably making more money than they could have in any place in the U.S. [LAUGHTER] Yep, any place in the U.S. Bauman: So I asked you about the most challenging part of working out--what was the most rewarding part about working in Hanford for you? Daniels: Well, I think it was one of those deals where you didn't have to worry about next week. You--it was somewhere, like if you got a job, you knew you could have that job would last your lifetime. And that's what it did. I never missed a payday all through my working life. And that's good. That's very good. And you get paid vacations. Holiday pay. [LAUGHTER] You know, I always tell people, I say I never went home tired. Even--we would work, like I said, I worked that whole weekend. I wasn't tired when I went home because I was able to go and sleep until they would call me. So, to have a job like that is very rewarding. Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about some of the segregation when your parents were there in '40s during the war. By the time you start working there, very different? Daniels: Well, not—it was very different then. But it was still lots to be--because we had--there was no electricians, pipefitters, or anything like that. Like I said, my uncle who had a degree and he was working for someone—my brother said the guy had an eighth grade education. I don't know. But things like that, why, you couldn't get up. And females were the same way. I remember when there wasn't any females in management or anything else. And there was only one—I remember when I started, there was one lady janitor in the 300 Area. And they had rules then—even when I worked in the supermarket—that females didn't get paid the same as the males, because they said they was restricted to how much they could lift. So thank goodness we have come a long ways from that. Bauman: Did you see some changes, then, take place during your time working there? Daniels: Yes, I seen lots of changes take place. One of the biggest changes was Dr. Wiley became—over all of Battelle. And then when the lady came and she became the president. I guess you could call it the president. But they called it the director of Battelle. We had a meeting once of all the people who had worked there 25 years or longer--35 years or longer. And I was there and they had a dinner for us. So the lady came over who was the director. She said, well, Ed. She said, you've been here quite a while. She said, you've probably seen lots of changes. She said, what's the biggest change you've seen? I said, the director's a lady. And she just fell out laughing. [LAUGHTER] She came over later, she said, the director's a lady. All right. [LAUGHTER] I said, yes, I can remember when there wasn't one lady who was exempt, that was monthly. I said, so there's half of the changes that have been out there. Lots of them. I mean, for the females and for the minority workers. Bauman: Is there any aspect of your work at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that we haven't talked about yet that you think is important to talk about? Daniels: Well, I tell people from all over--I have relatives all over--and I tell them the best place in the world to live is in the Tri-Cities. And I've been around a few places. And you could buy a house here. Like you go down and you see a house for $250,000. And a house, let's say in parts of California, who is probably as large as this place here. [LAUGHTER] It maybe cost that much money. Me personally, I will never leave here. I will stay here for the rest of my living days. I love to go and visit. But I always tell people, if I'm driving back from California, when I get up on the hill over there and I can see the lights, that's, [SIGH] "I'm home." [LAUGHTER] Yep, it's a beautiful place. Beautiful place. Bauman: Well, I don't think I have any more questions. But I do want to thank you for coming in today— Daniels: Hey, my pleasure. Bauman: --and sharing your experiences. I appreciate it. Daniels: My pleasure. Bauman: Thanks a lot. Daniels: You bet. Northwest Public Television | Daniels_Edmon Edmon Daniels: [WHISTLING] Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I guess we're ready to start. Daniels: Okay. Bauman: Okay. Let's start by having you state your name and spell your last name for us. Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. D-A-N-I-E-L-S. Bauman: And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date is November 20th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So wondering if we could start by having you just tell us when you arrived in the area here. What brought you here? Daniels: Well, I arrived in '51. 1951. And my parents was here. So the family moved here. Bauman: And did they come for jobs at Hanford, or--? Daniels: They came--my father came in '43 when he heard about the Hanford Project. And my mother joined him in '44. Bauman: And what sorts of jobs did they have at Hanford? Daniels: Well, at that time, it was just construction. And my mother worked in the mess hall and cleaning up the barracks. Bauman: So how old were you in 1951 then, when you came up? Daniels: 1951. You know, that's the deal. I never tell my age. [LAUGHTER] I was in grade school. Bauman: Okay. So, what are your first memories of arriving here as a young person? Daniels: Well, as a young kid, you're just in a new place. And memories are just meeting people. But, I guess it was—there was quite a few relatives here at that time. Just meeting them. Because I really didn't know--I hadn't been around my father that much at a young age. He left when I was just--wasn't that old. And my mother left after that, so. It was just really just being with them more than anything else. Bauman: And so where did you migrate from? Where had you been living before? Daniels: Texas. The eastern part of Texas. Bauman: Okay. And so, your parents were here. And were there other family members as well? Daniels: Well, I had uncles here and some aunts. One aunt, I think, was here. Yes. And cousins. Bauman: Okay. So where did you live and what school did you go to? Daniels: Grade school, I went to Whittier. And went to junior high--it was junior high then, it's middle school now. I went to junior high--that was the only one junior high in Pasco. And one high school at Pasco. And then I had a few classes at CBC. Bauman: Okay. So what was Pasco like, growing up in the area in the '50s and '60s? Daniels: Well, growing up, I tell people it's the best place in the world to be because you could do things. And, as a kid, you do whatever you want to do. There was no restrictions whatsoever. Then as you get older, you find that there are restrictions. [LAUGHTER] But as a kid, you just go and enjoy playing. And that's what we did. My father told me, I want you to play and have fun. Because when you get older, you'll start working and you'll work longer than you ever played. And I thank him for that because he was definitely right. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, in terms of Pasco itself then, you remember any specific or special community events or things happening at the time? Daniels: Well, the only thing we had--and that was probably any place, Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland--was baseball. We had summer baseball. There was no, like we have now, AEU basketball or anything like that. We played baseball in the summer. And my father'd been an old baseball player. He was my first sort of like coach, was my father. So that's what we did during the summer. In the wintertime, we just threw snowballs at each other. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Bauman: With Pasco at the time, was it racially integrated, or? Daniels: Yes it was. It was. We live on the east of town, which is on the east side of the railroad tracks. And, boy, it really wasn't—because all blacks live on the east side of town. But the house we lived in, there was four houses on the street, and we were the only black family on the street. But as a kid, that doesn't bother you because, man, kids are kids. We just had fun. And I was the youngest kid on the block. So, it was just like going down the street and saying hello to everyone, not worrying about color or anything like that. Bauman: What about community institutions like churches? Were there churches in the area growing up, or? Daniels: Yes. There was two churches right around the corner from us. A Baptist church and a Methodist church. And my mother took us to the Methodist church. That was the church I got married in. Oh, I think all my family got married--no, just my brother and I got married in that church. Bauman: And what's the name of the church then? Daniels: St James-- Bauman: St James. Daniels: --Methodist Church, yes. Bauman: Okay. So you grew up then , from 1951 on, in Pasco. And at some point you started working at Hanford? Daniels: Yes. And I was working--well, I was working at--well, I first got an interview for Hanford, oh boy, I think it was like in '62. '61 or '62. At the old 703 Building, as a clerk typist. And everyone then, you had to take a typing test. And it's funny, my grandkids always wonder, what is a typewriter? [LAUGHTER] Yep. So I was supposed to go to work, and then I got called into the service. So I didn't go to work at Hanford until '66. Bauman: Okay. And when you did start in '66, what area were you working with, what sort of jobs? Daniels: 300 Area. 300 Area. I worked in the mail room. The old 3706 Building. Bauman: Oh, okay. And how long did you work there then? Daniels: I worked in the mail room, I think it was maybe--I worked there from '66 to '68. And then I went into the operations department. Bauman: Okay. And where on site did you work in terms of operations? Daniels: Operations, we worked all over. Our main building was 325, but we worked at Two East, Two West, 100 F, all over. And all of the 300s. Bauman: Okay. And what sort of tasks or jobs did you have in the operations department? Daniels: Operations was all the buildings. Taking care of the fans and all of those things. And just making sure the building was temperature-wise okay. Bauman: Okay. And how long did you work in operations? Daniels: I worked in operations for--well, in operations I worked 38 years in operations. But from operations I went into [INAUDIBLE] work. But it was still the same department, just different. Bauman: Okay. And so which contractor or contractors were you working for? Daniels: Battelle Northwest. Bauman: Okay. The whole time it was-- Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. So in the work you did at Hanford, did you have to have special safety training of any kind? Daniels: Yes, yes. Lots of safety training. Mask and the PCs, protective clothing and all that. Lots of work with protective clothing. Bauman: So when you say protective clothing, what sorts of things are you talking about? Daniels: Well some jobs, we would go in, we would have to cover up all parts. No skin showing whatsoever. Have two pair of pants, two pair of shoes. Well, not--pair of shoes, rubbers, and then maybe the rubber covers over those. Masks, and the whole works. The rubber gloves. We went into some very hot areas. Bauman: So you have to have a dosimeter or something? Daniels: Yes. A dosimeter. And extra dosimeters also. Bauman: Did you ever have any incidents during that time where you had exposure, or? Daniels: Well mostly--well, you always got some exposure. But I know most of the time that we would be working, if there was four or us or ten of us, we'd have so many RCTs around us that if your badge went off, they would just evacuate the whole area. Well, the room you was working in. And find out exactly what was what. The exposure. And then, you might go back in. Bauman: Okay. And so, was it pretty common for you to--so you did it all over the site, right? Different buildings? Daniels: Yes. Yes. All over the site. Bauman: Okay. Of the work you did, what was the most challenging part of it? Was there some aspect of what you did that was the most challenging, or? Daniels: Well, the most challenging part is when you get completely dressed with everything, and I'm looking at you, and I can't tell who you are or who he is. So we tape our name on our back. And that way, if I needed something from John, I'd see if he'd turn around and I could see. Okay, John, I need this. That was the most challenging thing. And then, confined space area. That's very challenging. It didn't bother me, but some people could not go into a confined space. They'd sort of tear the room up. That happened to one guy. [LAUGHTER] He did tear the room up. But he was--we wasn't even--he was at the whole body counter and they closed the door. And at that time they did not have the TV cameras to watch the people. And all they heard was banging, banging, banging on the door. The guy just went crazy. Claustrophobia. So after that they put the cameras so they could check on the people that was inside. But it never bothered me, but some people couldn't take that at all. Bauman: Right. And when you started working there, was there bus transportation out to the site still, or-- Daniels: No. There was bus transportation for us, but we always reported it to 300. And then we would get the van or a truck and go to the other areas. Bauman: And go from there. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Okay. During your time working out there, were there any sort of incidents or bizarre or strange things that happened? Or something that's sort of memorable that stands out in your mind? Daniels: Boy. Nothing, really. There was things that happened, but it was nothing that so traumatized me that--no, not really, no. Bauman: So in Hanford site, the mission changed at some point, right, from production to clean up. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Did that shift happen while you were working out there, and did that impact-- Daniels: Most of the cleanup started right after I left. I always tell them that when I left, the guys couldn't keep up with everything so they had to start tearing the buildings down because I was gone and the work couldn't get done. [LAUGHTER] So it's a good story. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: It is a good story. [LAUGHTER] How was Hanford as a place to work, overall, as you look back at your time working there? Daniels: Well, it was really great because you made, at that time--I don't know how it is now--but that time, you made more than most anyone else, you know, in—probably in the U.S., doing that kind of work. And it was probably the only place that that kind of work was going on. So it was a great place to work. There was some people that you worked for that wasn't so great, but you just did your job. And, like I said, eight hour days, ten hour days, and then sometime--I remember one time, I went to work Friday morning and I worked all the way until Monday afternoon when I went home. Now, I wasn't working all that time, I just had to be there. So I could go to the office and—I don’t want to say—sleep. I could go to--but they had to have one of us there, and I was the only one available at the time. So a payday like that is not bad. When you're getting double time from 8 o'clock Friday up until Monday at 4:00, 5:00, or whatever time you get off. You make darn near two weeks’ pay in a weekend, so can't complain about that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And were your parents still working there when you started working? Daniels: No. My father retired right after I started working there. And my mother worked there--I don't know how many years she worked out there. But when they closed the old Hanford down, then there wasn't any jobs for black ladies. So she didn't work there anymore. But my father worked construction there. He always tell me that him and my uncle poured the first mud--concrete--for D Area and the 300 Area, really. So they was sort of pioneers of their time. Bauman: Right. During this time--'50s, '60s--were there civil rights activities going on? Daniels: Yes, there was. There was lots of civil rights activities going on. Even here in the Tri-Cities. They had a march over in Kennewick. And even in Pasco because--well, just like it had been all the time. If you were black, you could not buy a house on the west side of town. They would show it to you. But at that time, houses were very cheap. So if a house was $10,000, they would show the house to you, it might be $16,000. So eventually most of them just lived where they were. And then, some of my cousins moved to Richland later. Bought some very expensive houses. I think they was like $5,000 or $6,000. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Was there like a NAACP or other organizations here locally, do you know? Daniels: Yes, there was. NAACP was there. E. M. McGee, he was the president of the NAACP. And he moved next door to us when I was a kid. And then, eventually, he went to work out at Hanford. Bauman: And then, when you were going, like say, to Pasco High School and stuff, did whites and blacks--was it fairly interracial there? Or was there maybe racial-- Daniels: Well, at that time, we went to school together. The only time it was really interracial was when you were in grade school. In grade school, I can remember going to other kids' homes, because, like I said, you're a kid. And we would go in and the parents would fix us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And they would be the same thing if they came to my house. As you get older, you started separating. But I still have a couple friends that we have been friends--females—we have been friends over 60 years. And we're still friends. It never--we were just friends. And that's the way I love it about that. It didn't matter that she was white and I was black, we were friends. And we're still friends. Bauman: And how about the Hanford--working at Hanford itself? Daniels: Well, when I started working out there, I think I was the youngest black person out there. I had some cousins working out there. My uncle worked out there. He was an older gentleman, but he worked in the biology department. My uncle had a college degree. But he was working at a job that probably a 15-year-old could do. And, I don't know, but some people say his supervisor didn't even have a high school education. But, my uncle was a school teacher when he was younger. He worked out there, and a couple of my other cousins worked out there. But they didn't get hired until they was older. So they did not get--they may have put in--I don't think my uncle put in 20 years out there at the Hanford project. And my cousins, they put in maybe 22, 23 years. Something like that. Bauman: I was going to go back and ask you about your parents. They came during the war in '43, '44. Did they live in Pasco, or did they live in the barracks out— Daniels: They lived in the barracks. My father said when he came, they slept in tents because there was--I think he said there was maybe one barracks that was built. They slept in tents. And you can imagine, they went that it wasn't very many people there, and maybe in two months, there was 50,000 people there. They built that place very fast, because they had to. And the strange part about it is--everything was segregated by gender and by race--and my parents would tell me things that they couldn't tell other people. But they told me later that it was really segregated, they even had different mess halls. The blacks eat in this mess hall, the whites--and then, I think if you worked graveyard, you may have ate in the same mess hall. But it was just really weird because I took my father out there one year, and he was showing me where he lived and where my mother lived. And all I see is tumbleweeds. And he knew where everything was. Where the baseball field was, and everything. And here's the funny part. My mother and father, like on weekends if they wanted to get together, they would catch the bus to go to Yakima because they could not get a motel at the Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland. And here's the ironic part. They could get a room in Yakima--an Oriental guy gave them a room in Yakima. And what are they building out there? Something to go over. And he told me that, and I said, man, that's crazy. But that's the way things work. Just really weird. But it was just strange. But out there, my mother, she cleaned barracks and worked in the restroom. The restroom? [LAUGHTER] The lunch room, the mess hall. Lunch room or restroom! But she said that they had the black rooms. And here's a part that no one ever tells. They had barracks just--barracks set up just for some homosexual guys. And no one--I tell people that, and no one--my mother said that was the best barracks to clean up because they were so clean. But it was so bad, and you can imagine that--okay, I'm over here. There's a big 10 foot fence to separate the men's from the ladies’. And she said it got so bad that they would go in--and a couple of ladies went in, and guys in there, I guess tried to attack them. And so they would have to send someone in to the barracks and get all the guys out before the ladies could go in and clean. But these things wasn't told because--well, everything out there was secret. But my parents told me later. And I would tell people about this, nah. I said, well I don't think my parents would lie to me. As I got older, they told me lots of things that happened out there. You think about it, it's a strange way to live. I'm married, but I can't go--well, they had it sort of like a day room where you could go and talk to your wife. And at a certain hour, say goodbye and go back across the fence, and go to your barracks. Maybe that's why they had such long marriages. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did they stay there then, through the rest of the war? In the barracks, do you know? Daniels: Yes. And then they moved, I meant the trailer camp out there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Daniels: And then, my parents, they moved to Pasco. Bauman: Pasco. Daniels: Yes. Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were making at the time, and during the war? Daniels: Well, I looked it up. And this is really weird. Because my father was working in Utah when he heard about the Manhattan Project. And it was $0.90 was--I think was like the lowest wage. $0.90 an hour up to $1.00. And I think they made like $1.00 an hour, which was lots of money. My mother made, I think it was $.050 an hour. So, if my father was at a $1.00, so they made $1.50 an hour. That was lots of money. Because I just visited one of my cousins who is 91 years old. And he said that he was working for $5.00 a week. And a week wasn't Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday—you worked half a day on Saturday. So he wasn't getting $0.50 a day. So you can imagine my parents making that amount of money. Which is—and that's what drew so many people here was the wages. And electricians made I think like $1.25 an hour. Well $1.25 an hour when you think some guys, it takes them all week to make $5.00. [LAUGHTER] And they worked more than eight hours a day. Lots of time, they worked 12 hours a day. And so, money-wise, my parents was probably rich. [LAUGHTER] Yes, indeed. Now--well, at that time I think minimum wage, if you had a job that paid you minimum wage, was $0.25. I think that was passed in 1939. So, $1.00 an hour at that time was quite a lot of money. Bauman: Right. So your dad heard about it, got a job, and then your mother-- Daniels: Yes, my mother joined him later. Yes. Bauman: Probably, as you said, making a lot more money than they could have in east Texas. Daniels: Probably making more money than they could have in any place in the U.S. [LAUGHTER] Yep, any place in the U.S. Bauman: So I asked you about the most challenging part of working out--what was the most rewarding part about working in Hanford for you? Daniels: Well, I think it was one of those deals where you didn't have to worry about next week. You--it was somewhere, like if you got a job, you knew you could have that job would last your lifetime. And that's what it did. I never missed a payday all through my working life. And that's good. That's very good. And you get paid vacations. Holiday pay. [LAUGHTER] You know, I always tell people, I say I never went home tired. Even--we would work, like I said, I worked that whole weekend. I wasn't tired when I went home because I was able to go and sleep until they would call me. So, to have a job like that is very rewarding. Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about some of the segregation when your parents were there in '40s during the war. By the time you start working there, very different? Daniels: Well, not—it was very different then. But it was still lots to be--because we had--there was no electricians, pipefitters, or anything like that. Like I said, my uncle who had a degree and he was working for someone—my brother said the guy had an eighth grade education. I don't know. But things like that, why, you couldn't get up. And females were the same way. I remember when there wasn't any females in management or anything else. And there was only one—I remember when I started, there was one lady janitor in the 300 Area. And they had rules then—even when I worked in the supermarket—that females didn't get paid the same as the males, because they said they was restricted to how much they could lift. So thank goodness we have come a long ways from that. Bauman: Did you see some changes, then, take place during your time working there? Daniels: Yes, I seen lots of changes take place. One of the biggest changes was Dr. Wiley became—over all of Battelle. And then when the lady came and she became the president. I guess you could call it the president. But they called it the director of Battelle. We had a meeting once of all the people who had worked there 25 years or longer--35 years or longer. And I was there and they had a dinner for us. So the lady came over who was the director. She said, well, Ed. She said, you've been here quite a while. She said, you've probably seen lots of changes. She said, what's the biggest change you've seen? I said, the director's a lady. And she just fell out laughing. [LAUGHTER] She came over later, she said, the director's a lady. All right. [LAUGHTER] I said, yes, I can remember when there wasn't one lady who was exempt, that was monthly. I said, so there's half of the changes that have been out there. Lots of them. I mean, for the females and for the minority workers. Bauman: Is there any aspect of your work at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that we haven't talked about yet that you think is important to talk about? Daniels: Well, I tell people from all over--I have relatives all over--and I tell them the best place in the world to live is in the Tri-Cities. And I've been around a few places. And you could buy a house here. Like you go down and you see a house for $250,000. And a house, let's say in parts of California, who is probably as large as this place here. [LAUGHTER] It maybe cost that much money. Me personally, I will never leave here. I will stay here for the rest of my living days. I love to go and visit. But I always tell people, if I'm driving back from California, when I get up on the hill over there and I can see the lights, that's, [SIGH] "I'm home." [LAUGHTER] Yep, it's a beautiful place. Beautiful place. Bauman: Well, I don't think I have any more questions. But I do want to thank you for coming in today— Daniels: Hey, my pleasure. Bauman: --and sharing your experiences. I appreciate it. Daniels: My pleasure. Bauman: Thanks a lot. Daniels: You bet. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 30:04 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 195 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area Building 703 Building 3706 Building 325 Building 100F Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca.1966-2006 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. E. M. McGee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edmon Daniels Description An account of the resource An interview with Edmon Daniels conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-19: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. 200 Area 300 Area Building 100F Building 325 Building 3706 Building 703 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fef770d057cbd7fcd5e879acb0e88b207.jpg 4163a90a24db7d167a6eaea91a7561ee https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F607e136b0c77f3d9db0c55df91e50740.mp4 9f34d5ceebf274acb1217462d6100458 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Copeland, Harold. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:49:48 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 602 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) 3000 Area T Plant 184 steam power plants 1100 Building 100 Area 184 Building Dash-5 Building 221-T Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1947-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Windchimer, WW Hall, Lee Hill, Verne Lettingham, Jay Copeland, RW Galloway, Elijah Chein, Yao Madison, Web Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Northwest Public Television | Copeland_Harold </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Robert Bauman: Well, we can go ahead and get started with the interview. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Harold Copeland: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: So first I'm going to have you say your name and then spell it also. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yes. I am Harold Copeland, Harold Curtis Copeland, H-A-R-O-L-D C-U-R-T-I-S C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: All right. And my name’s Robert Bauman and today is August 6, of 2013. And we're conducting oral history interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And so we're going to be talking about your experiences working in the Hanford site. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me first, how you came to Hanford, when you got here, any first impressions of the place, any of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: My wife and I came here from Denver, Colorado in October 1947. I was working for the Bureau of Reclamation. They were decentralizing their main office, sending people to all the field offices. General Electric came in recruiting and they had received word of this decentralization, looking for engineers. So there were a number of us that thought that's a good opportunity, so we came out here, 1947. We're driving our little three-window Ford Coupe and towing my Harley motorcycle on back. And the first impression of Richland was pretty grim. We came into town and all we saw were these flat-topped, prefab houses. They didn't have their peak roofs yet. And there was dust in the road and not hardly any trees. But we came here. General Electric said there's a job for five years. Well, for the first four or five years, we kept thinking, when do we go back to Colorado? I grew up in Colorado. See, it's a neat place in Fort Collins and I graduated from CSU there, so naturally, it was like home. But after five years, we began to like this place. We had the Columbia River, the Yakima River, had the Blue Mountains, the Cascades, and the ocean, and fishing in the ocean not too far away. So we made it our home for all these years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And when you and your wife first came, what sort of housing did you live in first? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: They were building houses rapidly. The A and B houses, a lot of those were up and people living in them and prefabs, as I mentioned. Our first few months, we were living with Lee Hall and his son, 700 Sanford, in a two-bedroom prefab. And a wife and I got the small bedroom. She was pregnant when we got here. December 7, the Pearl Harbor Day, but in 1947, our first daughter was born and there was pretty cramped conditions with the baby beside the bed and then a two-bedroom prefab, well, the crying at night. She had not gotten used to sleeping at night. But Lee Hall said he had one bad ear. He says, put her out in the living room and let her cry out there. I'll just turn my good ear down and I won't hear her. So we did and the crying session and nothing happened from it. Finally got the message to Diane that she was supposed to sleep at night, so that was nice. And Lee Hall was so glad to have a woman in the house to do cooking and do furniture. She did curtains and changing paint and putting a woman's touch on the house like women can do that men don't have any idea about. Well, she did that and he was very pleased to have us with us, but they were building the pre-cut houses. And we get in along about in the '48, it was probably in March or April, the pre-cut houses were ready to be occupied. We moved to a two-bedroom pre-cut. Lee Hall was most depressed and dejected because we were leaving and taking all his good drapes away. So we lived at 700 Sanford for several years until about, I think it was 1973, our second child was born. So on the housing list, we were eligible for a bigger house, a three bedroom. We were in a two bedroom. It so happened I was working with the engineer, Verne Hill was his name. And he lived out on Atkins. And he said, they had a housing list. Big board behind the glass, a housing list was posted. You'd go down and apply for housing that became available. Verne told me his next door neighbor was moving, so I applied for that house before it was posted, see? So I was first on the list of eligibility for the house and we got the house at 209 Atkins because of Verne. And it—they were well-built houses, number one grade lumber, and it's been a very durable and good place to live over the years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Where was this housing list that you mentioned? Where was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: They had sort of a housing department located in the vicinity, very close to where the Richland Police Department is, across the street from the Federal Building would be. But they would post this housing list and people that were eligible to move would go in and apply. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And how would you describe the town of Richland at the time in the late '40s and early '50s? What kind of place was it to live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Very safe place. Good schools. Good housing. No crime. Everybody that worked at Hanford had had their background checks. They wouldn't hire any criminals or background violators. So we could leave our cars unlocked, we could leave our doors unlocked, and it was a very safe place. The main thing was security for the plant. The plant operation security was very, very strict then, but living conditions were very good. They had 700—420 Wright Street. We rented the house. $38 a month. It's a two-bedroom pre-cut called a U house. And the electricity was furnished, the water, the sewer. They even give you grass seed to plant your lawn, and if you had some maintenance to be done in the house, call them up and they'd come and fix it. The wind blew a lot. There were no ranch houses at that time. And the wind came—they started building the ranch houses. The soil was all very fluffy and stirred up and we would get one of those terminator winds as they were called, the way they would blow dirt into our yard. And there was a terminator wind and there was probably three to four inches of sand blew into our front yard. The way they took care of it was the fire department came out with their tanker trucks and hoses and hosed this off of our lawns. They also learned, they gave you the plant seed, but they only gave you enough seed for just about one quarter of your lawn at a time. When you get it going, then they give you seed for the next section. Trying to water it and keep it growing, the whole thing they learned, was too much for the residents. So it was a very safe, good place to live. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Do you remember any community events, any special events sort of things in the community during that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Community events, the one that comes to mind, there were probably some but I can't think of was the boat races. And it was called the Atomic Cup, which nowadays is not politically correct. They call it the Columbia River, then it was the Atomic Cup for several years. And it used to be a nice place to go and watch the boats, but recent years, they're so crowded and unruly people that I don't have any reason to go down there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Let's talk about your work in Hanford then. What was the first job that you had when you first came to Hanford in 1947? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, my degree is in mechanical engineering and that's what I was doing in Denver with the Bureau of Reclamation. They came out here and I had an engineering job in the--I think they call it the 1100 Building. It was a single story Army barracks type of building. It was in the location of, I would say where the parking lot is now on the lower side of the Federal Building. That was its location. And so I worked there until I got my Q clearance and then I was sent to 200 Area after I got the clearance. After I got to the 200 Area, they were in search of instrument engineers. No college courses taught instrumentation. The one up in Yakima was teaching good technicians and the one up at Milwaukee had good technicians, but no engineering. Well, I'd been in the Navy and my training in the Navy was with electronics gear: radio, transmitter, receiver, sonar, LORAN, and there might have been something else. So I had a lot of this electronic training and I had one semester of electrical engineering at Colorado State. So I transferred over to instrument engineering and shortly after I got to the 200 Area and followed that through all my time there as an instrument engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: So what sorts of duties did you have then? What sorts of things might you do on a typical work day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, I would work with the instrument technicians, help them with their work. If they needed new parts, I would go write purchase orders. If some of the instruments were getting old and wearing out and needed total replacement, I would write orders for those and oversee the installation and help the craftsmen, the instrument techs with calibration. There's one funny story that I just can't forget. Most of my work, some, not all, but most of my works in the 184 steam power plants, which provided the steam for emergency use during outages. And this took place at the N Reactor, at the 184. And he was an instrument specialist. And he was the--what do you call them? The steward. He was the instrument steward for their craft, Jay Lettingham. And we'd gotten all these new Foxborough DP cells in that we were installing to replace some other instruments that were obsolete. There's a much, much better system and we were in this little instrument shop in the 184 Building and I was reading the manual and he was trying to turn the screws and nuts to get it calibrated. And he tried and it didn't work and he tried and it didn't work. And then what he did, well, he said, here, you take these tools. And so I did it and showed him how to do it. He being a steward, see, I wasn't supposed to pick up a tool or touch one, but he had me do it. [LAUGHTER] I thought that was a real amusing situation, but we got along. We worked as a team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And how long did you work at the N Reactor then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, N reactor from about 19--probably '66 to '87. I retired in 1987. But my first work was assigned in the 200 Areas. And I was fortunate. One day, I got in on the startup of the 234-5, which they now call the Plutonium Finishing Plant, but in those days you're probably aware that they named the plants and the facilities in a name that did not relate at all to what they did. See? Plutonium Finishing Plant would have been giving away a secret, so it was 234-5. Everybody referred to it as the Dash-5 Building. I was there on the construction and startup of 234-5, mainly working on heating and ventilation. Had three big air supply filters and washers and fans for the building and it was a real tough ventilation because there were three separate pressure zones. The office zones were the higher pressure and then there was an intermediate zone. And the zone where the hoods and the work was done was the lowest pressure so that all contamination wouldn't flow from the work area to the shops and clean areas. And it was very difficult to get those pressures to be stable and maintained. I got in on the construction and startup of REDOX plant. And then I also got in on the construction and startup of PUREX. Now, part of the PUREX work, I had an office under Webster in the 3000 Area, North Richland, where we were working on design work and approving drawings and specifying the type of instruments to be procured. Then I got to go out to the field and saw them being installed. And I worked for Copeland, R. W. Copeland. That was a coincidence. No relation that I know of, but he was a good guy to work for. He was, I think, Blaw-Knox Construction, if I remember right, that he was in charge of all the construction there. So I got well acquainted with a lot of welders and pipe fitters and electricians, and everybody worked together. It was a very cooperative effort in those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Your first job was with GE, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: General Electric, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And then what other contractors did you work with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Well, it was, I think about 1964. GE's contract was running out. They chose not to want to extend it and so United Nuclear came in and took over the contract for the 100 Areas and I think Westinghouse had a contract. There were several contractors for the 200 Area, so Uniroyal and couple others. I don't remember the name, but anyway, United Nuclear took over the 100 Area, so I worked for them and retired for them. And the plant was down in 19--I got my neat belt buckle. 20 years, 1964 to 1984. So the plant went down in 1984, but I retired in 1987. The neat thing I remember doing there, our maintenance work could only be done when the reactor was down. The reactor running was producing plutonium and steam for the steam plant. That was a money earner, so the downtime was kept at a minimum. When it went down for good and we thought that it was always going to restart, we went in and replaced a lot of tubing and instruments, valves with upgraded material, upgraded design. And we thought—I believe that that plant was in better condition, had better equipment than when it first started up and we always had that hope that—we didn't have any doubt at that time--that it was going to start up again and that all this good stuff in it was really going to run good. But then because of the Chernobyl incident, the politicians shut it down. It didn't make a scientific and engineering gradual shut down, which would have saved a lot of money in handling nuclear fuel and processing it. But they shut her down because of Chernobyl. And I'm not a real good nuclear physicist, but they think it's a two factor or an n factor. You'd have to talk to a nuclear person. But it was designed in this N Reactor so that it would not run away and meld itself like the Chernobyl plant did. It was impossible, but the politicians didn't know that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Obviously, security, secrecy were a big part of the Hanford site. Can you talk at all about how that part of it impacted your work at all in any way or any interesting stories about security? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah. Some of the security men would hang out in restaurants or bars. I never experienced this or saw it happen, but I've heard about it. And if the customers in there talked anything between themselves or anyone else about anything, the work they were doing or what was going on out there, they were out the door. And most people knew that and obeyed it very, very strictly. For a long time, my wife and my daughter, see, they didn't know what I did out there. I couldn't tell them. I'd go to work in the morning and come back in the evening and ride the bus. So it was that tight. And another funny story, the kids in school were talking about what does your daddy do out there? Of course, they didn't know. And they'd say, my daddy is making toilet paper. He brings it home and his lunchbox. [LAUGHTER] It was one of the answers that the kid that didn't know what's going on was doing because, I guess toilet paper at the times was not readily available, but there was still always lots of it out at the plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: JFK, President Kennedy came to visit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: What's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: President Kennedy came in 1963-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: --to dedicate the N Reactor [INAUDIBLE] came. What are your memories of that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: He dedicated the reactor. Well, I was working that day and didn't see it, but my wife and daughter went out and got to watch Kennedy designate. He moved the radioactive wand over the receiver and the motorized shovel, big, earth-moving shovel, scooped the first scoop of dirt out there, so the way I heard about it, he started it up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Okay. Were there any events that sort of stand out in mind from the years working? Any unusual happenings or strange occurrences, sort of, when you were working out at Hanford at that time, or funny stories? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah, I think of one that was very amusing. The instrument techs who I worked with, all of them were a bunch of good guys. They would play jokes. They had subtle humor and played jokes on people, harmless type of things, nothing to harm. This occurred in the 221-T, the separations building in the 200 Area, 200 West. And I'd often go over there early in the day, see the instrument foreman, what he was going to assign to the technicians and what was going on, what was to be done that day so that if it involved something that I needed to know, I would be there to hear about it. And one time, we had these ring balance instruments, we called them pen draggers. They had little pens. They would make a mark on a round chart, a moving chart and they were a very small pen with ink in them and made a very small line. And we were having this, I guess, a safety meeting was finished and we were talking to this--they had a secretary. The instrument foreman had a secretary. I think she was Eleanor, but I'm not sure. Well, one of the guys rigged up one of these ink pens, held it about waist height and he had a squeeze bulb with water in it and he squeezed it right at Eleanor. So she became all wet on her front side there and everyone was smiling and giggling and she didn't know what was going on until she looked. [LAUGHTER] You couldn't see the stream it was so fine, see? It was a fine stream. I thought that was funny! Another one in the same building, at quitting time, the guys that have their lunch buckets set on the workbench and when the bell rang, it was time to go rush out and get on the bus and go home. So this one guy, he was especially quick at grabbing his bucket and getting out so he could get a seat on the bus that he wanted. Well, we had a lot of lead bricks. They're the same size as red bricks that we have. This was a lead brick. They put it in his lunch bucket and he came along and grabbed this lunch bucket and all he got was the handle on the top part. [LAUGHTER] That was a funny one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I wonder what you see as were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford were and what were some of the most rewarding parts about working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Challenging and rewarding. Well, the challenging, and to a certain respect of keeping the secrecy of the plant, one of the challenging things was the dust storms called the terminators. And the rewarding thing, I think, was the men that I got to work with. They were all good guys, cooperative, pulling together. There was no territorial protection. If somebody knew something that the other guy didn't know, he would share it. That was very rewarding to me. There were different technical problems that I was faced with during the time, which we were able to take care of and never had any bad accidents. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: And you were there for 40 years-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I imagine you must have seen some changes take place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Many. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Either technological changes, or instruments. I wonder if there were any changes that you saw that you thought were important? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah, there were a lot of changes. The older instruments in the power houses were--can't remember them. But they ran on a five to 25 psi signal. Then we got these newer Foxborough instruments and then they were three to 15 psi. And before I left, they were going to forward a 20 milliamp electrical instruments and controls. And the computer age was just getting started when I retired. And they would allow computer measurements—I was in the 100 Areas by then, of course—instruments, they would measure pressure temperature and position, could be done with computers, but the control the people had, the men, the operators had to maintain control. They allowed no computer control of the reactor. That was a limit at that time, but that's gotten past that, present day. But we had computer programs on the old IBM cards, punch cards, that punched the little square holes, and there was a giant computer in the basement of the Federal Building. There was a Boeing computer facility and all the cards went down there to be processed and problems and answers, solutions work out from that. That was just the beginning of that age that I just got in on the start of it, but not anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: The site, of course, at some point, shifted from focus on production to focus on cleanup. I wonder if that shift impacted your work at all, the sorts of things you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Yeah. Well, to back up a little bit more, at one time, we had nine reactors up and down the river operating. And N Reactor was a first one in the country and maybe in the world that produced power. It was one of the first power reactors, of which there are quite a few of them now. So that was a neat thing, but--give me your question again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Oh, I was asking about the shift from production to cleanup. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: To cleanup. I got in on a little of that before I started working at N reactor, the other BDF and DNDR were all being shut down and I worked for Wind Chimer, WW Wind Chimer. We were on--I was probably for about a year--helping with some of the cleanup on that and our motto, our mission was, drain and dry the piping and store the mercury. That was our mission that we were doing. The other groups were doing other things, but I know that we were tending to that for the shutdown. And at that time, it was shut down, not that we were not involved in the cleanup yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: But the shutting down of some of the reactors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I wonder if you could—so in a sense, overall your experience working at Hanford for those 40 years-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: What about the overall? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Yeah, what's your overall assessment of your 40 years working at Hanford? What are your thoughts about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Oh, very proud. Very positive. I'm proud that I was able to work out there and support the Cold War effort. My first job out of college was with Fairbanks Morse, Beloit, Wisconsin where they made the diesel engines for the submarines, the OP, opposed piston engine. So I got to help with the war effort. Then I got the letter from my draft board that said, greetings, you are a selected volunteer, so that's when I got into the Navy. So I got into the Navy parts and then, as I told you I didn't have to get shot at, but I was working during the war time, then out here for the Cold War. So I had those three parts of my life, I think, contributing to the growth and the safety of our nation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: I want to ask you about your running. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: At some point, you got involved in running. When was that, and how did that get started? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Elijah Galloway. Dear, dear friend who’s gone now. He was the Brown Shoe Air Force, that's the Army Air Corps. Before the Air Force—the present day Air Force was formed, the Air Corps was a part of the Army. He said I was part of the Brown Shoe Air Corps. So he flew missions and did things, but one of the jobs where he got started running was CIA, Russia. Both he and his wife got trained. They had probably most of a year of training in Russian and how to conduct themselves as observers, but really getting spy information, but they were just called observers over in Russia. And then he participated in all the Russian parties. They had lots of caviar and vodka and pretty soon he was overweight. And his doctor, when he went to Germany for a checkup or leave, he said, you need to lose weight. So he encouraged him to start a running program, which he did. And he lost weight and he lost weight and whenever he would go out on one of these surveillance programs, he'd just go out walking, then he got to running. He'd count the number of insulators on the power pool, just simple stuff that he could observe while he was out, then there was always a Russian counterpart that was with him and following him. He was a runner. And pretty soon, Elijah got so good he could run out and leave this guy. [LAUGHTER] And so one time, the story he told me, he went out for his run with his counterpart, Russian guy, and he finished his run and then he told the Russian guy, well, let's go out and run your course. Now, I want to run your course. He was too tired to do it. [LAUGHTER] He was a specialist on antennas, jamming and communication, that was his specialty in his work. He had an electrical engineering degree and antennas was his thing. And so he was involved in a lot of that communication and jamming for the US over there. The one amusing thing that was taught to his wife. The Russians would have a big parade. They would have these big wheel movers with the missiles on them and they'd have a big parade celebrating how great we are. And Elijah and his wife, Beryl, would have their trench coats on and have their Leica cameras down at waist high, just barely pointing out between the buttons. And they would take pictures and just the time they'd click, they'd go, [COUGH]. And there were always Russians around spying on them. If they heard a camera click, well, then bad news for them. But they could cover this up with [COUGH]. Just cover it up the click of the camera. That was one of the neat stories that he told me. But from his experience with losing weight, he retired and his home was in San Antonio, Texas. And he couldn't stand being retired. And he'd gone to school with Paul Venter, a name that I mentioned. I think it was probably at Whitworth. I'm not positive, but he knew Paul and he kept in touch over the years and Elijah didn't like being retired and he had this electrical degree and Paul says, why don't you come up to Hanford? There's some jobs here. Elijah came up here, got a job. He was my office partner and I think I already told you part of it, that he and Jerry and I, in my office one day, Elijah said, let's go out on our noon break and go for a little run. Because it had meant so much to him and he felt so much better getting down to a trim weight that he wanted to influence other people to enjoy that same feeling and the euphoria—the endorphins get into your body when you're running to where you just feel like you're just going and can go forever. Of course, you can't, but you have that wonderful, elevated feeling. He wanted to share that with everybody and I wanted to share it with other people too that I have run across in my running years. So that was Elijah. It was about 1972 that this happened and I started running and within a year later, I ran my first marathon. He coached me on how to train for a marathon. It feels good, but don't keep going further than, you know, increasing not more than 10% or a few miles each day. Hold a very strict schedule of gradual training and conditioning. Because if you do try and get too much, you get injured, disappointed, then you quit running. That has happened, so one thing that he taught me and another people. And so we ran the old Cheney Marathon up at Cheney, Washington. And that Cheney Marathon only lasted, I think, about three years and they discontinued it. But the neat thing, I still hold the first place for 50 age division at the Cheney Marathon. No one came along later and beat my record because the marathon was stopped. [LAUGHTER] A lot of other marathons, why, someone else comes along when they turn 60 and they beat my record. That's how I got started running and I'm a advocate of—if not running, I swim or bike or kayak, whatever suits your fancy, whatever you feel good doing, do it, but keep doing something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Sounds like you were running pretty regularly at your last time period working at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Pretty regular. My routine for many years was up at 4:30. Do my toileting, strap on my shorts and shoes, out the door at 5:00. I'd run 7 miles in an hour and I was back to the house and Evelyn would have breakfast. I'd quick shower and get breakfast and then I'd catch the bus at 6:30, about a two-block walk from my house, catching the bus. That was my routine, seven miles every weekday morning and then six miles at noon with the guys at N Reactor. So I got 13 miles a day, weekdays. Saturday was the long run day. Do 20 or 22 miles. You have to have some long distance training to train your body to learn to burn fat when you run out of glycogen. And the person I did that most with was my dear Chinese running friend, Yao Ming Chein. “Chee-in.” We would meet Saturday and run our 20 to 22 miles. Sunday was a rest day, so I'd ride my bike about 15 miles. That's a different exercise. It rested your running muscles. But Chein, I remember, he would, at one of our wedding anniversary parties, Yao Ming and is wife were there and I was introducing him and he says, Chein, E before I. He says I before E and everything except Chein, C-H-E-I-N. It wasn't C-H-I-N as Chin, but he was Chein. That made a difference to him. So he's still around. He lives over in Bellevue. I talk to him every once in a while. We formed a—a lot of marathoners, you form a bonding, a marathon bonding with these people that you run 26 miles with and you look for them and wonder how they are and if they're not at the next marathon, you wonder if they're ill or accident or anything happened. It's a bond that, it's hard to describe, but it's there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Is there any things that I haven't asked you about in terms of your working at Hanford that you think is important to talk about and would like to talk about that you haven't talked about so far? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: There's one more funny that I didn't include. We were working at the PUREX plant, 200 East. And this instrument specialist, Web Madison was his name, he--to back up a bit, they needed instrument technicians that could find work and work on instruments. So they were looking for watchmakers, all search the country. Watchmakers would qualify. They knew how to do fine, delicate work. Well, there were a lot of watchmakers out there because there was no training for them early on except, later they had the Yakima, forget the name of it, instrument school and the one in Milwaukee. But Web had tooth problem, teeth all decayed. So he had upper and lower plates, all new plates. Had them built by the dentist, you know, nice. And then the one thing that I'm leading up to, if an instrument needed a part and you couldn't buy it, they could make it and they could build parts that were broken and replace them, they were so good. So Web got his new teeth and he looked at them real close. He built himself a set of stainless steel teeth, a whole set of stainless steel teeth. And one night when he come off shift and through the badge house, the guard always looked at you and looked at your badge and he'd know who you are and he knew who he was. They checked him out. But he flashed those stainless steel teeth at the guard and the guard just about fell over. It was a riot. [LAUGHTER] Another thing they did, they were practical jokers. Another thing they did there to the going off shift, I didn't observe this, but I heard about it. An instrument tech, they were getting ready to go off shift and they called up at the badge house and said, we're going to flush the phone lines. And we want you to unhook your phone, take your phone off and just hold it while we flush the lines. And so he did that and they took some air nozzle and made some noises. It sounded like flushing noises. And then he went up to check out to catch the bus and they really ribbed that guard. What in the world are you doing on the phone. Oh, they had him put it in the basket. They had him put it in the wastebasket. What are you doing in the wastebasket? Practical jokes like that. There are so many of them that—so, good to think about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: It was my pleasure. I am hopeful and I'm sure that what you're doing will be very educational and important to your students over the coming years. So I want to thank you for doing this work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Bauman: Well, I'm glad to be a part of it. Thanks again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330"> Copeland: Mm-hm. </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harold Copeland Description An account of the resource Harold Copeland was an instrument engineer on the Hanford Site from 1947-1987. An interview with Harold Copeland conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear instruments & methods Nuclear weapons--History. Nuclear weapons industry Nuclear weapons industry--United States--Employees. Nuclear weapons plants Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created - DMO 2016-07-08: Metadata v1 created -[J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/6/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 1100 Building 184 Building 184 steam power plants 200 Area 221-T 3000 Area Cheney (Wash.) Chernobyl Nuclear Accident Dash-5 Building General Electric Hanford Site (Wash.) N Reactor Nuclear waste disposal Plutonium Finishing Plant Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) Running Secrecy T Plant United Nuclear Corporation United States. Bureau of Reclamation https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2503d544b8a14f97e9770f99ea4ae31e.jpg 690baf02cd982d16be454fa61515735b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fada0dbf6496cc12da553f06e46e92b9e.mp4 59164a7708c88cbb1d22ef43bc311024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edwin Cheyney Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Cheyney_Ed Laura Arata: Plus, if you make him mad, he's got a cane now he can smack you with. Ed Cheyney: Well I got one I’m not doing with. Arata: Nice. Man: I guess it just-- Arata: That would be our first on camera cane dueling. Cheyney: Right. [LAUGHTER] Man: Okay, whenever you're ready. Arata: Okay, we’re ready to go. All right. So if we could start out by having you say your name, and then spell it for us? Cheyney: Sure. My name is Edwin Cheyney. C-H-E-Y-N-E-Y. It's also been pronounced chee-nee, with the extra Y in it. I was corrected many years ago that you're pronouncing it wrong. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Really? So you learned about it, too? Cheyney: I said, I didn't care, as long as it didn't get any worse. Arata: Fair enough. My name's Laura Arata. Today is November 12, 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start off by just having you tell me a little bit about when you came to Hanford, and what that first experience of coming to Hanford was like, and why you initially came here. Cheyney: Okay, well, first of all, at that time, I was going to Spokane Technical and Vocational School, which is now Spokane Community College. And basically, the only way you could get out of class time is to go interview. Well, I was on—it’s three and a half years, and so, I was on the, actually, the last few months of my course. And this guy says, hey, let's get a carpool going, and go down to Hanford. Well, where's that? And he says, well, they're looking for employees. I think it was 13 at that time, for a special program with General Electric. So we get down there, and the first thing, and we got here early, at seven o'clock promptly. We were all escorted back into a room that had separate booths, and we were given time tests from seven o'clock till 12 noon. We were tested on about every kind of conceivable test that I could imagine, but it all related to my field of electronics and instrumentation. So anyway, it was about two weeks later. The ones that were in the carpool with me said they already got their rejection notice. And my teacher--I wasn't one of his favorite ones--and he just says, came to me, and says, well, you'll get yours. And I said, well, I'm sure I will. A month later, I get a call from my grandmother. I was living in Spokane and taking care of two of her apartment houses. And she says, you've got a registered letter. So I went to my teacher, and I said, I need to take my grandmother to the bank. He said, I've never heard of that one before. [LAUGHTER] So he let me go, and I got there, and I had a registered letter from General Electric. I really got excited. And it says, offered me a job. And I went back to the school. I plopped it down to the teacher, and says, well, there, I got my letter. He says, so what? And just turned his head. So, well, that's fine. At least I got proof. And I went to my two other instructors from previous years. They stopped everything. He said, look it. He's the only one out of the whole school's that's been offered a job down in Hanford. I still didn't know what I was getting into. [LAUGHTER] But I figured it was worth it. And we had to agree to the fact to go to three and half years more to CBC to special programs that GE selected. And that was no problem either. And then we worked only an eight hour shift, except on weekends, we could work overtime if that case came up. So basically, that's how I got in the front door. And it's sort of interesting that when I first came down here, my mother wanted to make sure that I got in a decent environment because I'd never cooked or anything. And so, GE, they'd recommended the best place where most go is the Statler Hotel. Well, I thought, well, let's go there. Well, we went in there, and my mother, of course, with me. When she saw the three gals there wearing mini-skirts and the whole thing, she almost ripped my arm off, says this isn't the place for you. I didn't see any problem with it, but she immediately took me up to the parish house, and says, is there somewhere decent that I could live? And she introduced us to this woman that was very motherly, very heavy set, very good cook. And said she'd board and room me. Well, of course, I got out on the project. There was lots and lots of indoctrinations that this is classified work, and you're not to discuss anything whatsoever. And the home then I was staying in, her husband was one of the managers out at D Reactor. And so first thing, he asked me, he says, what do you do out there? I says, I just work out there. He says, I know you can't describe anything, but he says, you can at least say your title. You're not getting yourself in trouble with that. I says, well, are you sure? He says, I wouldn't put you on the spot. And I says, I'm an instrument and control technician. And so, he didn't push me any further. And the one thing, before I left the neighborhood of Spokane, the FBI was checking up on me. And I had neighbors say, what kind of trouble are you in anyway? And I says, what do you mean trouble? And they says, the FBI was out checking on you. And I go, that's great. He says, what's great about it? I says, I think they're interested in me. [LAUGHTER] So that's basically how I got in the front door. And I started in the 300 Area, basically the canning lines. And with GE, you were only in a spot roughly three months to six months, and they rotated you because they wanted you to get the full feel of the different expectations that they had of you, and the way you could handle your so-called position, as far as instrument control calibration of all kinds of instrumentation, which, to me, I found really exciting because it was a new challenge. There was never, seemed like there was never a day that it wasn't something different. And I like that. And the challenges were quite different. And riding that bus for a nickel a day. You couldn't afford to drive anywhere. The only thing is, those buses didn't have air conditioning or anything. And when it started, when they moved me to the K Reactor--first it was B, C Reactors. When you had 100 degree weather, it was no fun after a shift, getting on the bus about 4 o'clock. It's good and hot and everything. About all you could do is just sit there and bear it. I usually just closed my eyes, and just figured, well, I'll get home pretty quick. And I just figured, well, it's good for a common cause. Also at that time, the salary was real good for someone that was just out of a tech school. My dad had a master's degree, was teaching five solid subjects, and the superintendent of schools at Hogan, Montana. And the first year, because I was living with the landlady's, their home, she also made use of me, and took me to grocery stores to help her carry stuff. And she took me to Zale’s and talked me into buying a men's diamond ring, which that's the last thing in the world I was really interested in, but I got talked into it. Well, I go up to see my dad, and he sees that. And he says, is that real? And I says, of course, it's real. But I says, it was stupid that I bought it. And I took it off, and said, you can have it. And he said, well, what kind of money are you making? At that point in time, I had made a little over $2,500 more than he'd made. And that really changed his whole attitude about tech school because when I graduated from school, I had to be in his classes, and I took lots of insults. And when he asked me when I graduated, what are you going to do? I says, I'm not sure yet. And then, when I told him I was going to tech school, he says, you just will be a grease monkey. Well, that changed his whole attitude, that maybe--He says, I just can't see why and how they can pay you that kind of money. I says, Dad, they pay you for what you can do with your hands, too. And from then on, he had a whole different feel about it. So that's getting off of what I was doing in Hanford. But going to the different sites, like I said, the challenges were always different. And I think the thing that really impressed me the most is the feeling of the power and energy that was going on. And especially when I was given the tour to go, first, up to the water treatment plant. That was massive enough. I was told could easily take care of the whole city of Los Angeles. And they showed me a wet well, and in it was all these lights with no insulation or anything. And they're on. I says, how come they don't short out? He says, in pure water, there's no conduction. And the mass of water that was going down through the pumps, and through the reactor core itself, the ground just vibrated. I'd say it was at least a good two city blocks, if not longer. You just feel the rumbling. And it's just a massive power. And you go in the reactor area, you just hear all this rushed water. Another thing that was impressive, you look outdoors at this big million gallon tanks of boiling water coming right off the reactor. It could be 100 degrees outdoors, and it had a 200 foot plume at least. And it really made me think, especially in later years when you start realizing what all is going on. It was a graphite core reactor, the same kind of reactor that Chernobyl had. They were foolish in what they were doing. They weren't using nuclear engineers or physicists, and doing all kinds of dangerous experiments. But they reminded me that when I went in to watch, and a lot of times we referred to it, we're controlling a nuclear bomb. And when the operations, especially at operations, they start pulling rods, waiting for things to go critical, it got real exciting, real quiet. And they had two to three guys watching everything, all the instrumentation to see when things were starting to go critical. And it just really amazed me how smart they were, and how careful they were in their operations. And at the same token, it made you well aware that we're really controlling something really massive. And later, roughly, I'd say about every six months or so, they rotated you. They moved me to the K Reactors. Now those were the two world's largest producing plutonium reactors. And that was even more exciting. And of course, a whole lot bigger, and a whole lot more things going on. And eventually, I don't know if it was because of my interest, or my attitude or what, they gave me the opportunity to go into the irradiation testing group, which was a whole lot more involvement. And that was going into, I won't go into a whole lot of detail. They were putting, I'll say samples, into the core of the reactor during operation for different tests for Atomic International, NASA, and there was a few others. But they had a lot of instrumentation, monitoring, and analyzing what's going on. Of course, because being rotated around, actually, what happened then was I just became journeyman, and General Electric announced that they're phasing out. That was a real scary thing for the simple fact they were laying off thousands of people, not hundreds. And being that I was on their special training program, they had an agreement with the union, only take a certain percentage of us to lay off. And go off, like, they lay off 2,000 workers, they might take three or four of us. But when it got down to the last two weeks at General Electric, I was down into the last group. Now when they put me on that status, then they immediately transferred me out of the K Reactors down to the canning lines. And that's where they actually had, oh, what do I want to say, molten metal for sealing the canisters for the fuel for the reactor. And so, when you knew when you were down there that you were on your way out--Well, on Friday, the last Friday of the second week of GE, I got my lay-off notice. Well, this probably about does it, but I put in my name. I thought, well, I want to stay nuclear. I put in my name for the nuclear bomb testing down in Nevada. I immediately got results back. We'd like to hire you, and the only thing is, they're offering me basically the same salary, but I had to move myself. And I thought, well, to heck with that. The following Monday, so I got a notice on Friday, the following Monday, my supervisor comes to me, and he says, how would you like to work for Douglas United Nuclear? I says, I'd love to work for Douglas United Nuclear. He says, well, you'd be doing the same thing you're doing. And so, tear up your lay-off notice. So I stayed with Douglas United Nuclear. And not to go into a whole lot of details of the same thing, it wasn't long they announced shutting down more reactors. The handwriting was on the wall. You aren't going to be here very long. And so, I put my name in with Battelle Northwest, and I put my name with KEPR TV station, because at school I had earned a commercial FCC license, so I could go that way. I thought, all right. I'll get out of government. I'll go into this. Well, it was on a Thursday night. I got called by both Battelle and by KEPR. And I said, well, I wanted to—to Battelle, I told them I wanted to just check into this one job first. Well, it turned out real quick that that didn't have anywhere near what to offer that Battelle. So I went to Battelle. It was through Battelle, then, I got into a whole lot more avenues of the nuclear field. And they moved me everywhere where they felt that they wanted me or needed me. I worked--first, they were going to move me out in the areas, or that's what they promised me, and the first day on the job, they put me in the 300 Area again in the fabrications department. Well, Battelle's in everything. And the next thing, I was assigned on an engineer. He basically gave you a schematic, or a drawing, of what he wanted, and you had to from there, get everything you need, put it together, wire it up, test it, and turn it over to the engineer. Well, that was really exciting because it was a whole different challenge, including making your own printed circuit boards, which I'd never done. Basically, it's a photographic process, and I've always been interested in that. And so, it wasn't long—they wanted, the engineering department then wanted me, and moved me down to the sand castle. And of course though, when they have a contract that ends, so does the job. But in the meantime, they had the computer lab at the sand castle for the FFTF mock up. And I guess, my understanding was the first time they ever had analog digital computers working together to simulate FFTF. That went great until Governor Dixy Lee Ray came down and removed that job, that responsibility from Battelle. Well, I got moved out into the 300 Area again, and different labs, and HTLTR, PRTR, and all the different ones. But again, every one of them was exciting. Every one was a different challenge. Well, in the meantime, there's a gentleman that got hurt at home. And he worked out at the 200 Areas, and that was top secret work. And so that required having more checks on me. And then when you were approved, you had a blue tag on your badge. The only thing that I really feel comfortable disclosing was the fact that, again, it was really exciting. The big thing was that they assigned you to specific cells only. And no one had the same cells, and no one was-- basically, I was told because this way, you'll never try to put things together. You just do your job, and mind your own business. And that's fine with me. And then, as soon as this gentleman was able to come back to work, then I was put on with, they asked me if I'd like to work at the weather station. That's out at the 200 Areas also. That, I was to work on the telemetry stations. I thought that's really neat because it had weather stations at a 65 mile radius that I traveled every day, checking stations, and setting them up for monitoring radiation, temperature, wind speed, and et cetera. And the only thing is, it was a great adventure, watching, or being at the different areas. And that's when it came to my light, I didn't realize that during the time I was out in the 100 Areas, I don't know when because I never saw it, that they had Nike missile sites. And where that refreshed my memory is when I was out a K Areas one night, on graveyard shift, and I was with a gentleman. And we were outside, and we had just got through with, they had stack flow monitors to see what kind of effluents are going through, to make sure we're staying within limits. And he says, you know, it was really sort of funny. One night, he wouldn't say who, and I can see why, inflated a big air balloon, a weather balloon, and tied a flashlight to it, and set it up. Well, after it went up so far, next thing, a big—I think two military jets came flying over to see what the heck that was flying in the air. So some people had ways of—no one wanted to be identified on that one because they did have missile sites. I found that one out on my weather stations out at the Wahluke Slopes, but they pretty well destroyed everything. And I thought this was really, really, was pretty well covered and protected. Which thank God it was, but we weren't aware of that stuff. So it was full of excitement. And I never knew what I was going to be stuck with the next day. The only thing is, like with Battelle, and that's while I was doing the weather stations, I was watching--one of the sites I had was right out on the Hanford site, and it was right out there where they were starting up Whoops, and they were digging this massive, massive hole in the ground. And we had to set up a weather station there. And so I got really interested in that, and basically, I thought, you know, I've always wanted to see something like this being built from the ground up. So I put my name in there, and three months later I was hired in, and spent the last 27 and a half years there. But that's basically in a nutshell what I was involved with. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Sounds like you were involved in a lot of different jobs, and I wonder--you mentioned that you worked at B, C, and K Reactors. So I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about what maybe some of your different jobs there were. Whatever you're comfortable with. Cheyney: Oh, sure. Well, especially in the B, C Reactor Areas, like I say, while I was going to school, you weren't allowed any overtime. But on weekends, you were. Another interesting thing when you're back home, if they wanted you, like, for a reactor goes down, they call you up, you say yes, they send a person out in a car. They pick you up, and take you out there, and they also bring you back home. Some of those jobs, I actually was out at the plant for two days at a time. But one of them, like in the B, C Reactor, especially now that we can go visit and everything, it brought back the recollection of the reactor had gone down, and they were doing repair of thermocouples. That's temperature measurement. And you had to go to the rear face of that reactor in a wetsuit, and, of course, PCs under that, and go in there, and go behind where those tubes are, pull out this little two conductor wire, and take and cut it, splice it, and basically bond it together, and then solder it there. And here you've got water's dripping from 100 feet up. You're trying to heat this thing up enough to make it bond. And then call the control. Now are they getting an indication? And then, of course, you'd have to re-insert it back down into the well it was in. That was one of the things I'll never forget because it was so dark back there and everything. You did not want to be claustrophobic. You could easily touch the back of the wall with your back, and you'd have the tubes in front of you. Of course, the interesting thing there is before anyone ever goes in there after a shutdown, they discharge all those tubes down into 15 feet of water, and you see all this blue going down there below you. That never bothered me either, other than thank God, it's down 15 feet under water. Well, in the K Reactors--the B Reactor, I just had a lot of general routines of, like in the powerhouse, there's all kinds of instrumentation for controlling those big boilers. Of course, that was coal fired. And the water treatment facilities, measuring the pH of the water, and the chemistry that goes into it. And then K Reactors, I got to go in. Now they were putting in the high speed scanning system for measuring temperature. And instead of using thermocouples, they used RTDs. And they were going into, I think it was about the second year I was at K Reactors, that again, they shut down to replace all those. Well, again, I get called, I come out there. It's at midnight. I'm well over 100 feet up in the air running these thermal bulbs down through in between the tubes while there's another guy riding the elevator down to the point of what tube it was to be installed into. And it was sort of relaxing up there. It was interesting, but it just seemed like forever. Another incident—of course, as soon as you finish your college requirements that they put on, I was immediately put on D shift. And it just--I didn't like shift because it was one day a week, swings, days, and graveyards on a continuous cycle. I was with the technician this one day. We were up in full operation at this point in time, but they were wanting to check—they were having problems. And so, he and I were assigned to go into the control room. They had—I won't give the exact number; I'll say there was well over 3,000 pressure gauges called panel gauges. They're monitoring the pressure of the water of the tube itself, and that's 3,000 plus. And this panel, you're in the control room, you hear all this click, click, click, click. And they're all moving. If anything, if any one of them goes over pressure or under pressure, immediately, it dumps that whole complete plant. Everything comes through a massive—you hear lots of equipment slamming shut, and the control rods drop. Well, anyway, I guess I was still considered a trainee at that time. We had to change out one of those little pressure gauges. Behind the panel, it's all full of tubing and wiring. They're all in series with each other, so that means if any one's interrupted, it dumps everything. So to get around that, to replace a gauge, you had to take, you had jumpers. So you put a jumper, and you jumper off that gauge. And then when you're all ready to try to dismantle, and pull it out and put another one, you pull the jumpers out of it. Well, the gentleman that was taking me through this, showing me and telling me how careful, as soon as he pulled the one jumper, boom. The plant went down. [LAUGHTER] Oh no. I don't know what color I turned, but I know that he says, oh no. He went out, he says, we did it, we did it. They says, hold on. They had to check it. And it turned out it was something else, but it happened at the same time that we pulled that jumper. So there was times that it made you plenty nervous because you don't make anyone happy if you dump the plant. You don't get fired, but the embarrassment of it—you try to take a lot more pride in it than that. And so, that's basically, sort of in a nutshell the B, C Reactors. It's really interesting to go out there and look at it now. I certainly encourage anyone that has the opportunity. It brings back a lot of memories. The biggest thing I remember is you go in the control room there, the first one that they let off. You go in the control room there, it looks like a little dinky space. It didn't seem that dinky to me then. But if you go into the K Reactors, it looks like a gymnasium compared to that, as far as the size of the control room and the equipment that was there. So a lot to compare it with, but the things that just always impressed me was you could feel from the tremor of the grounds and everything, that there was massive power. And it had to be to generate that much heat, and have that much steam coming out of those millions of gallons—I don't know exactly what. The only thing that disturbed me, and I questioned it at the time, riding the bus, going past the 200 East Area, a lot of times, the winds would bring down that brownish plume. And it'd come right in the bus, and your nose would burn. And I'd say, isn't that bad for you? Why is it on a big stack, and it's coming down here? Oh, nothing to worry about. Well, thank God, I don't think I ever got anything from it. There was a lot of things that went on that you could question, but you probably wouldn't get much for an answer. In fact, when I—I get bounced around on things—when I was doing the weather system for them, in the winter time, we were given snowmobiles because we did Rattlesnake Mountain, and the whole bit. And so they had their own trailer with the snowmobiles. Well, I had to go into the Two West Area, and immediately, this one guard, he must have been new. He says, pull over there, and don't go anywhere. Well, this is new. And he comes up, he says, sir, I hate to tell you this, but you can't be bringing your recreational vehicles in here. I said, sir, would you mind reading what's on those snowmobiles, and read what's on the trailer? It says property of the Atomic Energy Commission. He looks at it. He thought it was crazy. He says, well, I'm sorry. [LAUGHTER] So you're all the time being tested. But in general, I always considered it probably one of the greatest experiences. I'm really thankful to the good Lord that I worked 44 and a half years. I'm not trying to brag, but I was never unemployed. They kept me plenty busy. Arata: It sounds like it. It sounds like you had many different jobs. Cheyney: Well, with instrumentation and monitoring everything under the sun, temperature, pressure, level, et cetera. Even one, that reminded me—not to go on and on and on—but in the 300 Area, while I was down there, they sent me to the so-called bursting facilities. And I thought, now what the heck's that? Well, we'll find out. And I go there, and they had these different cells, and they had high pressure systems. And they take different materials of piping, and they hook up all these apparatuses on both ends. And they put it in a cell, and put on all kinds of monitoring equipment to test pressure, temperature, et cetera. And what they do, when they get ready to test, you get out of there, you go back in the control room, and they run up until that pipe virtually breaks open. And again, for studies. But they had a lot of studies going on before they ever used a lot of material. So it was, like I say, always exciting. I enjoyed it, but you never knew what you were going to be assigned with. And it seemed like they didn't mind sending me around. Arata: Sounds like it. I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit about starting in the '60s, and then having this great 44-year career unhampered. Certainly, the technology changed a great deal in that time. Could you talk a little bit about what sorts of technology changes you encountered working there? Cheyney: Well, sure. It's sort of interesting. When they first put me out in the 300 Area, of course, I was assigned with different technicians almost every day. And anyway, this one technician—and you've could sense when right off the bat, well, you're a fresh one from out of school, so you probably don't know much or anything. And I was given this elderly gentleman, and he takes me to his own little shop area he had. As a matter of fact, it happened to be where the bursting facilities was, and he says, what do you know about recorders? I says, well, I was thinking of electronic recorders, a magnetic tape type recorder. I says, well, if you're talking about magnetic tape recorders, I says, I think I know quite a bit about them. What do you got? He says, well, what do you know about recorders? What do you know about L&N recorder? And I says, not a thing! Can you show me what you're talking about? He brings out this great, big, heavy, old chunk of iron. It's an L&N recorder. It has a galvanometer movement in it. I knew what that was. But I thought, what do you with that piece of junk? I'd use it for a boat anchor. [LAUGHTER] But I didn't say that because I knew it would disrupt him a lot. He says, do you know how to calibrate—or wind your own resistors for the bridge that it requires for it? I says, no. You give me a formula, and I'll work it out. He said, great. So he gives me what values he wanted. Okay. So then he hands me this spool and this wire. He says, all right, make your own resistor. I said, what is this? [LAUGHTER] He says, you've got to make your own resistor. So I kept going down on wire until I got exactly the resistance, cut it off, then I had to treat it and the whole thing. I just followed along with him. And I make these several spools of resistors, and put it in. And then he had me taking, apply a signal to see where the galvanometer would move, and the whole thing. I thought, now just how antiquated can this get? [LAUGHTER] He didn't like it too well or anything, but I thought, I could learn something from everybody. And it was really interesting because as I got out into the K Reactors, well, now they had all, at this time--that time--they had vacuum tube amplifiers. And yes, they had their own bridge circuits and stuff, but you didn't go winding your own resistors or anything. In fact, it all came from the factory pre-certified and et cetera. And so, I saw a big change there in the counting type equipment, and the measuring of temperature. Things changed tremendously. Now in the pneumatic end, that's air-driven instruments, which I never really was fond of. I liked electronics. It was a lot faster. Air-driven, even though that is very accurate for monitoring pressure, and the whole thing, is very slow. You make a move. You wait. Electronics, it's right there. And that was a big change I've seen. And of course, as they got—especially like that K Reactor—so much more massive and everything, they had to be a lot more sophisticated. And so, I could see one heck of a change. And poor old B Reactor was about as old-fashioned as you could get. But it amazes me how they handled the whole thing from the ground up, and we didn't have any major catastrophe. They did have at K Reactors—and I didn't realize the possible danger I was in—they did have where the core did catch on fire. And at least with the monitoring equipment they had, it was where they could respond fast enough to start changing control rods. But it took them a while to get that out. But at least it wasn't like Chernobyl. Chernobyl, they had no chance. In fact, we had videos of--and I'm jumping clear into--where we were shown videos. The fact that when they cut off all the safety systems, they apparently had no knowledge of how fast, when a chain reaction starts, how fast could it be when it goes critical. Because it totally blew everything up, and that's with a graphite core. And unfortunately, people think that, like Energy Northwest out there, that has water as a moderator. There's no graphite whatsoever, a whole different thing. And graphite does burn. And the sad thing is, understand, I've heard that there wasn't a single person that was around Chernobyl that was trying to save the area that is alive today. At least, thank God, we do have a lot more safety concerns. But I don't know if I've totally answered what you're looking for, between the difference, but it was a massive difference. Of course, then when I went over to Energy Northwest, the equipment, as far as recorders, they didn't even have vacuum tubes. Everything's solid state. Pretty much, the current state of the art, or even making changes to be more current, to the more current methods. So it always gave you a different challenge. But I like the changes. And I learned real quick. No matter who, you learn from everyone. And I know my first supervisor, he was sort of like a dad, and he'd, after about two weeks there, he called me in. And he says, I see that you were really raised strict. I says, why do you say that? He says, you don't let anyone disturb you, but you don't come back with any smart aleck remarks. I says, everyone's got something to offer, good or bad. I says, I'm not here for that. I'm here to learn, and I'm here to carry out what you want me to carry out. It was always exciting. And I have no regrets. In fact, most thought that I would never even quit. I quit when I was 66. I figured, well, maybe I should take time out to enjoy life. And I'm glad that I did. I don't miss it. I never tried to think about retirement, or play it into my mind until, I think it was about--well, the last day, I even went out, worked regular assignments until the last four hours. And then, finally, my boss says, well, come on in. There's no use to go any further. And I thought, well, now I can lay everything down, and walk out that gate, and I won't feel like I'm in a pen. [LAUGHTER] It was a great experience. Arata: It sounds like it. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the K Reactor shut down. And I understand there was some talk of maybe starting it back up, and that ultimately didn't happen. Since you worked there-- Cheyney: Right. Well, I heard mostly about that, of course, when I was away from there. And I thought, it was really, really a disappointment. It was really sad. In fact, I think it was pretty much getting into that process when I was down at Battelle. And they were doing some tests out there, and I got to go with an engineer. He wanted me to go out there and help with some equipment. And going in there, everything's stone cold. Everything's stone quiet. Such a massive structure doing absolutely nothing. I thought, what a waste. And what are they going to do? Like I said, I didn't hear a whole lot about it, but it came and really hit home when I went in there, and they're worried about rodents and everything else. That isn't the reactor that I saw. And the excitement that was behind it has just, all is dead. And going back through some of the corridors, and into one of the areas they were experimenting with, just hardly could see around. They had some test equipment. I didn't question exactly what are they monitoring. I'm sure a lot they're looking for, is there any possible contamination concerns or anything? But speaking of contamination concerns, it's just like when any of those reactors had what they call a rupture. That's where a fuel element breaks open, and the material’s going out into that water stream. And what they do is they immediately divert it to, they had a big open area, a pit area where all that high contaminated water went into. And guess what's out there in the winter time? Ducks are swimming in that hot water. And I thought, I wouldn't eat anything around here. [LAUGHTER] But I think there's quite a bit that substantiates all that. In fact, Battelle's doing a lot of research in animals and stuff, and even the materials that they've, the feces material and everything is, like, up in the 5R range, which you wouldn't even want to be near that. And I thought, they've got a lot to learn out there of studying the habitat around there, but I wouldn't want to eat anything. [LAUGHTER] Again, I'm off on another subject. [LAUGHTER] Arata: That's okay. So overall, I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about any aspects of your work that you found the most challenging, and sort of the most rewarding. Or just overall, how Hanford was as a place to work during the time you were there. Cheyney: Well, during the time I was there, as far as—I was really impressed with General Electric. They always gave me a feeling of a positive attitude. Also, a very strong feeling that you don't talk about your exact work because it's for the security of the country. And at the same token, I think where it became more rewarding and more relaxing to me is actually when I went to work out at, at that time, Whoops. And at that time, seeing all of the things that go into making a plant, you learn to respect things different. When I went to terminate from Battelle, they says, why in the heck do you want to go there? They're never going to ever operate. I says, well, I'm young enough yet. I want to see what I can learn out of it, and if it don't work--They says, if it don't work, come back here, we'll give you a job. I thought, I bet you will. [LAUGHTER] But I think maybe they were sincere, but I found it really rewarding there. I got involved with--and I never dreamt that I would—is working with robots, going into highly radioactive zones to do monitoring, and to observe what's going on, like steam leaks or anything. So you're not putting anyone in any danger. Out of that, I was surprised, I got an award from, I can't think of the name right now, from the company that was behind it. It was back east, and they sent a plaque awarding me that I contributed to something that basically made things safer, that didn't expose man to. And yet, I found it really exciting because I've always been excited about cameras, and this was working with cameras and with remote control of a little robot. And I made quite a few improvements, and so, I considered maybe that was one of the highlights. It was rewarding. I wasn't expecting anything. I just enjoyed that they let me go on it. And I also worked—I wore two hats in the last years at Energy Northwest, in that I volunteered because they couldn't get anyone else that would go there to write procedures. There was five originally that volunteered, and we all five took on the challenge. And inside of a couple months, it was down to two of us. It ended up, it was down—it was basically myself. And the main reason is, is because you're writing the instructions for that technician to go out and perform a function. If that causes anything like dump the plant, or any kind of danger, you go before the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and you may be serving time. Well, to protect myself, I always went before engineering, and discussed, and made them put their name on the dotted line with me that, yes, this is right. This is the only way to go about it, or the best way to go about it. And it was rewarding to me from the standpoint that if they needed an extra hand, they'd pull me right off of that, and I was back out on the plant. So I got away from it, just continuing. Like I say, the challenges seemed to never end. And I really, for a while, thought, I don't know, maybe I won't quit. They always teased me that I would be there when they shut the lights out. Well, I'm glad I didn't because getting away from it, as I get older, different medical issues. But I'm still blessed with the fact that I can get around. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Mm-hm. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, that we haven't had a chance to hear you talk about that you'd like to share? Any other humorous incidents? Or just anything that stands out in your mind from that time? Cheyney: Well, it wasn't a humorous incident, but one thing that GE pointed out, well, I guess it was an incident as far as, and of course, it was to teach everybody a lesson, is this one gentleman saw this real neat tool in his eyes. So he decided he'd take it home with him. It turns out it was a contaminated piece of equipment. And so, when they detected that it was missing, all they had to do was they got out their radiation monitors. They had an approximate idea. They could go right to his doorstep. And they went in, and they cut out chunks out of his carpet. Everywhere he'd been in his house, they were cutting out samples. And so I think it was a lesson well learnt. Keep your hands off of it. [LAUGHTER] In a way, I thought it was sort of funny. It's not really funny, though. But taking that kind of, obviously, carelessness, at least it really hit home. It isn't worth it. Arata: All right. So I wanted to ask you, for general purposes, most of my students were born after the Cold War. They don't remember this time. So what would you like, sort of, that generation or future generations to know about working in Hanford, as this very important aspect of America's place in the Cold War, and winning the Cold War? Cheyney: Well, I think the main thing is, the big thing is, I'm just trying to figure out how to put it. You shouldn't be afraid of nuclear. If you really know all the facts behind it, and all of the precautions behind it, it is one heck of a rewarding career. And it is something that I think I'm probably a whole lot healthier, and a whole lot that I know that have never had anything to do with nuclear, and yet, my whole life, basically, has been out there. And it definitely is rewarding in regards to the financial side. Well, I can relate it to my older son, when he was graduating, I says, well, what are you going to do? Because I'd never heard him discuss anything. He says, I'm going to be an instrument tech. I said, where'd you get that idea? [LAUGHTER] And he says, well, I want to do what you did, and I want to make the money you've made. And he went to Perry Tech, and he did real well. And I even, through my supervision, of course, was instrumental, and got him on a few outages out here. But he went on down to the only place where you got a permanent job. But again, instrumentation, the same, similar type of equipment for different purposes down at SCH, where it was making silicon wafers for all these integrated circuits. All the latest technology, it's a Japanese firm. They're very stern, very strict. Well, he had the most seniority and everything there, I think it was 12 and a half years. When it came to lay off and cutbacks, because they're very competitive, he was one of the first ones to let go. Now to try to find work, well, he's been able to get on to outages all throughout the country. So, even though he's had nothing there, right now he's in Raleigh, North Carolina. A month ago, he was down in Florida. And he's getting to see country that I haven't seen, and there's a lot of adventures yet, but he's still dealing with nuclear. It’s definitely, it's nothing to be afraid of; it's something to respect. And I'd say it definitely has a lot of opportunity if a person really wants to make the good money. I know, like I say, it's what you can do with your hands. Of course, you have to use your head too, but there's opportunity that you can really do well. Arata: I want to thank you very much for coming in, and sharing your memories with us. We really appreciate it. Cheyney: Well, I hope I've contributed something that's--I enjoy talking about what I can talk about it. It's left me with memories I'll never forget. And I thank you for the opportunity. Arata: Well, we are very happy to have you. I love your description of standing behind B Reactor, and looking down in those kind of cool, glowing-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:50:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 203 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview D Reactor K Reactor 300 Area B Reactor C Reactor 200 Area 100 Area Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Ray, Dixie Lee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edwin Cheyney Description An account of the resource An interview with Edwin Cheyney conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor FBI General Electric K Reactor Secrecy WOOPS (Washington Public Power Supply System) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F67ab2275c27d2eb35de0d2ee444059a8.jpg 3cf5eafd07df622c79a7ce766d795c94 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff03c6f62ec6ecbb75d2e152e69b0a0cf.mp4 cca508797901a36664fbb38e718cd250 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lloyd Chalcraft Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Chalcraft_Lloyd Chalcraft: Does this station go into Seattle? Camera man: No. Bauman: No. This is in Eastern Washington, I guess. Camera man: Yeah. This will get to-- Chalcraft: Why I asked that of which it's in, my brother lives in Seattle. Camera man: It will all be available online. Bauman: Yeah. And we can get you a copy. Camera man: I'm recording. Bauman: OK. We're going to go ahead and get started. Can you hear me OK? Chalcraft: I'm ready, just as long as I can hear you. What you're asking, see. Bauman: OK. Let's start by having you say your name, and if you could spell it also. Chalcraft: Lloyd-- OK. Lloyd Robert Chalcraft. Bauman: OK, great. And my name is Robert Bauman, and today's date is August 20, right, of 2013. Chalcraft: My hearing is a little holding me back. I can hear you, but you're a real quiet voice. Bauman: OK. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. Chalcraft: Yeah, that's correct. I mean, do I got to OK that? Bauman: No, that's OK. Well. Let's start if you could, by having you-- Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Could you tell us about your family and how your family-- Chalcraft: Got here? My family came to Richand, Washington in 1910 from Idaho. My granddad homesteaded in Idaho, and they came into Richland in 1910. And I can go into quite a little history there. My family, my uncle, my mother's brother was the first boy to die in World War I in the war. He was the first one to die in Richland in World War I. And I got a great grandmother buried down in this cemetery. She was buried there in 1917. Well, I got a lot a relatives between here and Kennewick. Bauman: What brought them to Richland? What brought your family to Richland? Chalcraft: What brought them to Richland? My granddad was up in Rexburg, Idaho on a farm, and they still got the land. My mother couldn't breath and they came down for a dry climate for my mother. And they came down here in a covered wagon from Idaho in 1910. And what do want? You want to continue on? Then, my mother graduated from Richland high school in 1918. She played basketball there, and then there was Uncle Frank. Bauman: And what was your mother's name and your grandparent's name? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What was your mother's name and your grandparent's name. Chalcraft: Her maiden name? Bauman: Yeah. Chalcraft: Jamison. Her grandmother's buried down here across from Hapo. Her grandma Davidson, and well, I got a lot of relatives buried and kept between here and Kennewick. Bauman: Did her family have a farm here, then? Chalcraft: Did what? Bauman: Did they have a farm? Chalcraft: In Richland? Bauman: Yeah. Chalcraft: Yes. Well, my grandparents had a farm here. We had a farm here, and my uncle had a farm here. We had four different farms. Granddad had a big cherry orchard. Where his orchard was is where that locksmith is on Van Giesen. That was a part of their orchard. That was a prune orchard only it had cherries there. I went to school myself. I went to school here eight years, where now that little grade school is here. It used be called Richland Grade School, but it's not what's out down there south of Richland. Later in life, my boy played basketball for Richland. My boy, he was on the Richland State Basketball Champion when they beat Pasco. Do you remember that? For the state basketball. My boy, he played football and basketball for Richland High School. I graduated from Kennewick High School. See, we moved out. The government come in and took all this land over, and we moved to Kennewick. Bauman: And how old were you then? Chalcraft: I was about eighth grade. Bauman: And what do you remember about that time? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What do you remember about that when you first heard that the government was going to come in 1943? Chalcraft: People were pissed. People were mad cause they come in here and took this land over. They practically stole the land. I mean, people were really shook up. Do you know I mean? They didn't know what was going on. It was like an invasion. You seen army trucks, the DuPont surveyors. I saw the plane that I think this guy-- they flew over this big scientist to pick this area out. I don't know if I would guarantee it, but they were looking for a place of vacant land. And that Columbia River is the key. I remember that plane flew over. There was a Navy base in Pasco, but this plane was a big transport plane. These scientist were looking over that area. Bauman: And do you know how much money you're family got for land? Chalcraft: For the place? Bauman: Yeah, how much money your family got? Chalcraft: They had a farm there with cherries. My family, we had three or four families. My granddad had that big orchard. They gave him $13,000 for a whole complete cherry orchard. They literary stole the land, which is here or there. We got $7,000 for our little place. It's on the corner-- we lived on the corner of Sanford and Van Giesen. Bauman: And how big was your place? How many acres? Chalcraft: It was 10 acres. My granddad, I think, was-- I've forgotten now exactly. 25 or 30 acres. Bauman: And what was his name? Chalcraft: TJ Chalcraft. Thomas Chalcraft. That was my dad's father. Then my granddad lived here. When they come down from Rexburg's, he opened a blacksmith's shop in 1910. Jamison, Hershel Jamison. Bauman: Oh, OK. Uh-huh. And so did your farm also have cherries on your farm? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Did you grow cherries? Chalcraft: Yeah. We had cherries and asparagus. I've cut the damn asparagus. Bauman: Hard work. Chalcraft: Yeah. It kept me from dilly dallying. I was just a kid in school. Yeah. A lot of things-- my dad went to a federal land bank meeting in Prosser that night. And he come back to Mary and says, our government is going to take this property over and nobody believed him. About February 1st, or the approximate time, well, everybody started getting letters from the government. This property is under eminent domain, or whatever. There's another wording for it, but they're going to take all this property. By the way, in that school down here, that little grade school, they closed that. I got out of school a month early because the government took it over to make office space for it. And there was a schoolhouse where Carnation used to be, two story. I watched three years and they built that. This in before Hanford. There was a two story school there. There was a duplicate out here at White Bluffs Hanford. Everything and the toilets were outside. Bauman: So when did you move off the land then? What time in 1940? Chalcraft: Well, we moved off right away. We moved to Kennewick, my folks did. Let's see. We moved right away. They had to move because the government started moving them. You know, you don't understand. That's been 65 years ago. I get a little bit-- those numbers don't quite-- well, it was in '43 or '45. Well, hell no. The bomb was out here. [INAUDIBLE] is the one who built the Hiroshima bomb. So they dropped that bomb in '45, didn't they? So we moved out before that period. Well, we had to. About '43, I can't remember the dates. We moved out probably-- we'd haul over to Kennewick--my folks bought property on Kennewick Avenue. Are you acquainted with Kennewick? See, I own that Jiffy car wash. That's what's some of our land is when we move from Richland to Kennewick. Maybe you've had a car washed. It's isn't like-- I own the land or the building. I don't own the car wash. Hulberts have that. Bauman: Did you go to school in Kennewick? Chalcraft: No, I didn't. Which is immaterial. See, I went to school in Richland for eight years, and then I went to school in Kennewick for four years. Bauman: What do you remember about going to school in Richland? Do you remember any of the teachers, or how big-- Chalcraft: I had good teachers. I actually learned more from Mrs. Randolph in reading than most of these kids. Some of these kids go to school and they can't even read now. She was a little crippled lady named Randolph. And she taught us first grade. They had pretty good schools here. Actually, they did. And they told us you had to be a citizen in the United States before you could vote. Bauman: Did you walk to school or was there a school bus? Chalcraft: We had a bus. We had a bus. See, I lived about two miles down to Richland on Van Giesen down to Richland. We had a school bus. Yeah. They had three or four school buses. Bauman: And do you remember any of your neighbors? Chalcraft: Oh, yeah. Carlsons and Ericksons and Rudes. There was a lot of Ericksons. I think there was more Swedish people that lived in Richland than any other relative. Some of their homes-- My grandad helped build some homes here in 1918 that are still standing. Then, all the Swede's had pretty nice homes here. Maybe you're Swede. Are you a Swede? Bauman: No. Chalcraft: But anyway, the Swede's are a real progressive type people. OK, a little deal here. The boy, this cook, this vet's place down here, this cook Erickson, the name of the veterans' and Erickson was one of the sons of one of the people that lived here. And he went into the service, and he got shot down over the Mediterranean sea during the war. This little town had a lot of boys. We had, I can think, Don Culp was on the Arizona. He lived. His folks, well, his aunt was engaged to my uncle. But he was on the Arizona. Tommy Van Poulsen was on the California. This was at Pearl Harbor. The Mosier boy, he was on Guam. He got captured by the Japs. He was a prisoner of war for the total war. But Don Culp come off the Arizona and he went back to sea on a destroyer. And a storm come off the Philippines and they drowned. And Tommy Van Poulsen used to swim that river all the time. He swam off the Californian and got out. They were there where the Walmart has gone. This little town had a lot of people in the service compared for the population. Tom [? Handbe, ?] he lived in parts of Richland. He was killed in Normandy. Bauman: So how many brothers and sisters did you have? Chalcraft: I got one brother, no sisters. Bauman: Older? Was he older or younger? Was he older than you or younger? Chalcraft: He's 16 years younger. They thought she had a tumor. I mean, there was no kids between, you know what I mean, between-- 16 years olds, went to school. Hell, I was starting high school or last when he was born. But he lives in Seattle now. Bauman: So were you born in Richland, then? Chalcraft: Actually, I was born in Lady Lourdes in Pasco. I understand then there was no hospitals in Richland. And there was no hospitals in Kennewick. Mine was born in Kennewick, but there was a midwife. The only hospital here was in Pasco, Lady Lourdes. See, I was born in '29, but that was the only-- my brother was born at the Lady Origin, Pasco. My boy was born in Richland. I got a son that played basketball for Richland. And he was born in the Kadlec Hospital down here. He played against Pasco when they played-- I don't know if you were around here, Pasco and them played for the state championship. Bauman: So the community of Richland, when you grew up, do you remember any of the businesses that we're here at the time or anything like that? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Do you remember any of the businesses that we're here? Chalcraft: Oh, yes. We had Ralton's Drugstore. John Dam had a store, and that park out there is named after John Dam. [? Yiddick ?] had a store here. Hugh Van [? Dyne ?] had the tavern. And Rex Bell had a service station. I can remember, I could go down the street and Phil Charmin, he was a barber, and he's buried right beside my dad down this whole cemetery. And as you go down to the park, there's a brick building sitting there. It's two story. And the bank got in trouble. The banker went to jail in Walla Walla, because in 1930 the bank went bust. And at that time it was state controlled. See, federal took it after Roseville come in, but the banker went to jail. He went to Walla Walla. Bauman: What was his name? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Remember his name? Chalcraft: Yup. Nelson. You know what I mean? I don't know if his brother's still around or not, but anyway this was back in 1930. I don't know if it was big or whatever. The bank was closed when I-- Bauman: Your father was at some point then on the board of directors-- Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Your father was on the board of directors of the-- Chalcraft: He was on the-- Bauman: --federal land bank, or something like that. Chalcraft: Yeah. If you worked-- well, he's kind of a officer with a blind bank. We had a chicken hatchery we used to hatch baby chickens to besides our farm. Bauman: And your farm, you grew mostly cherries and asparagus? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: On your farm, you grew mostly cherries and asparagus. Chalcraft: Yeah, we did that. I picked lots of cherries and cut asparagus. These kids nowadays would think that was torture. Bauman: Do you remember any special community events? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Do you remember special community events or gatherings, picnics, any of those sorts of things. Chalcraft: Any special what? Bauman: Special events. Community events. Any celebrations the community had or anything like that growing up. Chalcraft: Not really. Not here. Most of the celebrations were in Kennewick. You know in this little town, small little town-- Oh, yeah. There's a boy named Shiftner. He was in the death march out at Carregador. I think it was Shiftner. There was quite a few soldiers. I still don't remember them all that-- this Comstock, there's a street here in Richland. I don't know if that's-- I think he was from Pasco are Richland, but he died in the service I think. See, this park is named after John Dam across from the federal building. And John Dam had a grocery store here. There were two grocery stores here. And they had a place they made ice. You know, everybody didn't have something to make ice, but they'd freeze this water and make ice. And people would get ice out of it. Ice house. And Phil Charmin, the barber, used to run that. Bauman: What sorts of things, growing up, what sorts of things did you do for fun? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What sorts of things did you do for fun growing up? Chalcraft: What did we do for fun? Well, we'd swim. We'd swim in the irrigation ditch or whatever. And where uptown Richland was right now, that was a swamp. There was mud that deep. And where uptown Richland is there was an irrigation ditch running through it. That ditch still runs. We'd go down there. It wasn't very deep, but it was a place to go swimming. We called it swimming, because we were told not to go in the Columbia River when we was kids. Well, that river was cold then, because there was no much dams below, you understand? More free flowing. It mad a difference. Bauman: Did you do much fishing or hunting? Chalcraft: Yeah. Hunting pheasant here was good. It was good pheasant hunting. There was no deer here, but there used to be-- we know it well. We hunted pheasant and the ducks. Oh, yeah, a lot of that, cause this all was asparagus field and open. People from Richland would get shook up when the people from Kennewick would come over and shoot their pheasant. [INAUDIBLE] But there was good hunting here, and everybody knew everybody and go hunting. But you'd normally need a dog. And that asparagus is tall, and you damn near needed a dog to get your pheasants. One time an airplane landed down in that pasture. What the hell-- where the riding academy used to be. The plane landed out there. That was another, well, it wouldn't be too important, but I remember everybody went down to steal gas out of the plane. Somebody said that burnt their motors up. I don't know, that aviation gas. Bauman: When you were growing up-- Chalcraft: I played a little basketball. Nothing big. Bauman: When you were growing up, did the farm you grew up on, did you have electricity. Chalcraft: Oh, yes. We had electricity. But when we first moved we had a hand pump, then we got electricity come in. Bauman: What about a telephone? Did you have a telephone. Chalcraft: Yeah. And the neighbors-- we had a phone, but a lot of neighbors didn't. They'd come over and borrow your phone. A lot of them wouldn't even offer to help pay the bill, but they'd use the phone. In them days, Mrs. Meredith, you had to go through a telephone operator. And Mrs. Meredith, she was kind of the-- and she knew all the gossip. But she was pretty god darn good though for emergencies. People would call in an you know what I mean? Then Brown Telephone in Kennewick bought them out. I guess they owned that at that-- Bauman: Now, did you also work at Hanford at some point? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Did you work at Hanford at some point. Chalcraft: I did, yeah, 20 years. Bauman: Where did you work? What area? Chalcraft: I worked in the reactors. I got cancer. I'm fighting cancer right now. Bauman: When did you work at Hanford and which reactors did you work in? Chalcraft: I worked at all of them. Bauman: And what years? When did you start? Chalcraft: I worked with the reactors. I was nothing too important out there, but I served a-- And then I got drafted in the army. I went to war. During the Korean, I got drafted. I was working though, 'til I got drafted in the army. Bauman: And what sort of work did you do out there? Chalcraft: Oh, different work. Handled uranium and all that. It was just, you know what I mean? I've done better investing. I wasn't an engineer type. I've done pretty well as an investor. Mostly these people sit on their butt around here, and maybe I shouldn't be saying that. That's probably getting cocky. But anyway, these houses sold cheap around here in Richland. These duplexes are selling for $7,000. I had bought one. I sold it here a while back for $130,000. But you know, that was time goes along. But the government practically gave these houses away. This was after Hanford produced the bomb. But these ranch houses, all of them went real-- government unloaded them pretty cheap. I've seen a lot of changes here. Bauman: I'm sure. What are some of the changes you've seen? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What are some of the changes that you've seen? Chalcraft: All these houses all over. Well, yeah, what else? More people. You understand, Richland was a very small town, and you had to count the farms. The town or Richland itself was very-- well, I better there was over 100 people here. Maybe a little bit more, but I didn't live in Richland. See, we had the farms around it. All the Swede's had homes. They were good farmers. Bauman: So you worked at Hanford in what, the '40s and '50s? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: You worked at Hanford in the 1940s, 1950s? Chalcraft: I went to work there in 1950. 1950 in the fire department. I worked in the fire department for a while out there. Then I worked in reactors. I'll tell you a little story. Before the government-- the day the government come in and bought this property, we played ball. I was going to Richland grade school. We went out to White Bluffs and played basketball. And about a few days later, the word came down that the government was taking it over. You understand that Hanford, Richland, one thing probably they know, but I know, there were usually cemeteries in White Bluffs and Hanford. The government dug all of those up. You understand why? You think about it? How could they let people go there if there's top secret stuff? How could they let people go out there and wander around the cemetery. There'd be all kinds of people wandering around, wouldn't there? The government removed all of them bodies. Some of the families got the bodies. But most of the bodies were moved to Prosser. And then they were going to dig up this cemetery in Richland but they decided they didn't need to. I had people buried in there. My dad's buried down there in this cemetery. My mother and dad were divorced. My mother is buried on that by-pass. But anyway. Bauman: I wonder if you have any other memories or stories from growing up in Richland that you haven't shared yet that you want to talk about. Chalcraft: Hey, gotta go. You think of a lot this stuff after you've stopped. OK, I'll tell you a little story athletic-wise. The bombers, there was no bombers. Let's go back. When I played basketball in high school before Hanford, they called them the Bronx, The Richland Bronx. And the colors were black and red. And now, they're green and gold. OK, I'm just telling you what happened. They were called the Richland Bronx. Then what happened, when Richland moved in they called them the Beavers. Well, they couldn't call them bombers, you understand? Well, it could've been done. But they call them-- that's after Hanford moved in-- they changed the colors and they called them the bombers. But their colors are green and gold. But when I was in high school, I didn't go to high school. I went up to eighth grade there. But they were the black and red. Then Richland come in and they changed them to green and gold and they called them the beavers. Then after, well, later on, they become the bombers. They couldn't have said bomber, I don't think. Bauman: So when, actually when the government came in 1943 and told you you had to move, did you know why? You know, what was happening? Chalcraft: What was happening? Bauman: Yeah. Chalcraft: It's a good question. No. It was rumor heaven. A lot of people thought they'd come in here for all-- well, to make toilet paper for one thing. Well, anyway. They hit a little natural gas out here on the Horse Heavens. Not Horse Heavens, out there at Bridal Snake. They thought they'd come in, but just that people real naively, understand. You look at it. All that come in here, my god, millions of dollars. Even the army moved trucks in here. Everybody moved in, and they sure as hell didn't bring all that in just to hit natural gas out here. Well, I didn't know until the day when they dropped the bomb. The guy that lived in White Bluffs, he come in and says, I've found out what they built Hanford for. But what they've built is enough to burn those Jap's ass right off. That was his very words. His folks owned property at White Bluffs-- Hanford White Bluffs. And there used to be a little bus that you went from down Richland up to, there they called it, Sagebrush Annie. I was only up there once when I lived here. Until I went to work out there. I was out there at that basketball game. Well, I was just a kid. I didn't drive. And that's quite a ways out there. Most of the people in White Bluffs and Hanford, they went over to Yakima to shop for groceries. There was a story out there in Hanford or White Bluffs. There was a grocery store. There was two high schools out there at that time. Maybe you knew that. And then they merged into one, because you know, I think, yeah. I'm trying to think of different-- I wish sitting in Richland the day they bombed Pearl Harbor, right in Richland at Thayer Drive. And it come over the news that they'd bombed Pearl Harbor. Bauman: On the radio? Was it on the radio? Chalcraft: Yeah, radio, we didn't have TV then. This was '41. That was quite a shock. When they said Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, and I was quite of a history buff. Some of these people still don't know what happened. But I knew we was going to go to war. And they hit Pearl Harbor that day. That's the day Culp got off the Arizona any other boy swam out from the California. Well, I'll tell you a little side story. It didn't fit into Richland. But my uncle was in Pasco, and there was a guy sitting on a bar over there. And my uncle, he was in the Navy, World War I. He thought he was Japanese, and my dad was with him. And he was going to beat the hell out of that Jap. Come to find out, he was a China man. You know what I mean? This is right after Pearl Harbor? There's been a few other people that was picked up here. One or two guys here in this town were out hollering Hail Hitler. The United States Marshall picked one of them and shipped him back to Leavenworth. Nobody bothered him but the day Pearl Harbor was hit, things opened up. They let him, when they were fighting Great Britain, that was a great deal. Germany was beating the hell out of Great Britain. But the day Pearl Harbor was bombed, that changed the atmosphere. This one kid would come to high school and brag about the Germans picking the hell out of the British. But anyway, he shut up after Pearl Harbor. Bauman: So what was Richard like as a place to grow up? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: What was Richland like as a place to grow up? Chalcraft: What was Richland like, what? Bauman: As a place to grow up? Chalcraft: It was a kind of a quiet little quaint town. My uncle, he had never drove. He drove a team of horses. He drank a little beer. He trained horses. It wasn't a regular policemen. Bill Perry had a server station here. He was the town Marshall. Things were quite quaint. You know what I mean? There was one guy that got in a fight with a guy, and I guess he died. That was hot news in those days. This guy died from a fistfight. Actually, things were pretty quiet at that time, I guess. But we did go through World War I here. There were two or three boys that got in that one. Bauman: You mentioned earlier some of the businesses in Richland. What about churches? Chalcraft: What? Bauman: Do you remember any churches at the time? Chalcraft: Churches? OK there was a Methodist Church, and a holy roller. I remember they had a holy roller church right in downtown Richland, and they'd get up and role on the floor. One guy was looking through the window, they had curtains over it and somebody pushed the barrel and he rolled right in with the holy rollers. Yeah, there was a Methodist Church right across from where the school was. And I remember when they'd have funerals there. I remember one women died, Mrs. [? Kayler. ?] We remembered that. It was a different name. Well, my grandparents are buried out at that cemetery. There was no Catholic church. The Catholic church was in Kennewick. They had a holy roller church. I guess a-- what's that one? I'm not a great church goer. I went to the Methodist church a little bit. Most of the churches were over in Kennewick. Bauman: Well, is there anything else you want to share? Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Anything else you want to say about growing up in Richland? Chalcraft: Growing up now? Bauman: No. Anything else that you want to say about your time growing up in Richland. Chalcraft: About what? Bauman: About your time, your childhood. Chalcraft: Anything else you want to say about it? Bauman: Well, I played a little basketball here. I was no-- my peak come when my son won the-- my son, he was good enough to play. He was on the state champ. He was good enough to get a football scholarship at the University of Montana. He wanted to go to Oregon. Oregon wanted him to go, but they wanted him to go to Columbia Basin and play a year and then go. He didn't get an offer for Washington State or Washington, but he did get an offer from all those big sky, Montana, Idaho, to play ball, football. But in Oregon he kind of-- Oregon says, you go to Columbia Basin. Columbia Basin at that time had a football team if you remember. They wanted him to go over there for one year. He had a chance to go back. I'm bragging a little on his college. He had a chance to go back to one of the big east schools-- they egg head schools. You know what I'm talking about. He was pretty good in grades. But he ended up going to the University of Montana. He could've went to the University of Idaho, but then he got hurt. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today. And share the memories of growing up in Richland. Chalcraft: You know, a lot I've missed or thought about. A few names you hate to bring in, you know what I mean? Now, I have to ask you guys something. Is this going to be the air? Bauman: It could be. Camera man: Right. Parts of it will be. Chalcraft: Huh? Bauman: Parts of it. Chalcraft: What did he say? Bauman: Parts of it probably will be. Chalcraft: March what? Bauman: Parts of it. Chalcraft: Part, not all of it. Bauman: Right. Chalcraft: Well, that's fine. You always got somebody-- You know, I've been a little-- I'm not too bragging-- but I've been a little successful. And I found out people, if you get a little successful, they'll run you down a little bit. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:11 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 5276 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 1950-1975 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1910-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Chalcraft, TJ Chalcraft, Tom Jamison, Hershel Dam, John Charmin, Phil Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lloyd Chalcraft Description An account of the resource An interview with Lloyd Chalcraft conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Richland (Wash.)--Politics and government. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-18: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/20/2013 DuPont Hunting Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F157eb8cc8ada403d8f472d5c48788511.jpg 9d72ff516906fcb85e78925a8663e892 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0472090f713e05ebf58314e205876e9a.mp4 218d716c6219eb2bb404d57fdee92c83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob Bush Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Northwest Public Television | Bush_Bob </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Robert Bauman: I’m going to have you start just by saying your name, first. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Robert Bush: Okay, my name is Bob Bush. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this interview with Robert, or Bob, Bush on July 17 of 2013. And we're having this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And so I'd like to start just by having you talk about how and when you arrived at Hanford. What brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Okay. During World War II, I was overseas. My parents were in the area, both of them working. My brother was also here in Pasco High School. When I came home from the service to Southern Idaho, Korean War broke out. Wages were frozen, and so I was looking to better myself. And I applied by mail. I was interviewed by telephone. And I came up here in 1951 to the accounting department, General Electric Company. They were the sole contractor. And for 15 years, in construction and engineering accounting, which was separate from plant operations at that time. And from there, my accounting career followed its path through several successive contractors. From GE to ITT, Atlantic Richfield, to Rockwell, and finally with Westinghouse. When I retired, I was with Westinghouse for one month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: You said your parents were here during the war. When did they come out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: It was '43. 1943 and '44, my mother worked for the original postmaster of Richland, Ed Peddicord. And my dad was a carpenter. Built some of the first government houses called the Letter Homes. They were here about two years, I think. And then they went back to Idaho, I believe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Okay. And what part of Idaho? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Twin Falls, Idaho. Where I graduated from high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Okay. What were your first impressions upon arriving in the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: That's kind of interesting, Bob. Because I came up ahead of my wife and two--year-and-a-half old, and three-and-a-half-year-old sons. About two weeks ahead of them. And so I found a Liberty trailers to rent—the housing was nonexistent. And I found a Liberty trailer, which means it had no running water, no bathroom. It was like a camping trailer, basically. I sent for them. A brother-in-law who had graduated from high school went directly into the Korean War. He drove them up as far as Huntington. I went on a bus to Huntington and met them, came back. And as we came onto the Umatilla side, and I said, that's Washington. Well, there was no green and everybody was disappointed. But that's the first impression. I mean, there wasn't a bridge over the river in Umatilla. It was a ferry. So you drove around the horn at Wallula. Things were just really different. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: So you said you had a trailer. Where was-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: In Pasco on a front yard of an old pioneer home, where Lewis Street crosses 10th. That was the end on Lewis Street at 10th. And from there west was called Indiana. And there was about three homes on there. And it just quit. And roughly across from the present day Pasco School Administration Building, which was a Sears building. Across the street there was where this home was. I mean, things have just—in the whole area—have changed so much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: And how long did you live there then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Until I was called for housing in Richland, which was six months. That was in June, no air conditioning. And finally got into an apartment building, a one-bedroom before with two little boys that slept in the same crib. It was still, basically, wartime conditions. Weren't any appliances for sale and you had to stand in line to get a refrigerator. It was a different world. But we were young, so we could take it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was this in Richland then, the apartment? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: No, that was in Pasco. After that trailer, that was only about two weeks. And then we want into this apartment, the one-bedroom. Then we moved next door to a two-bedroom in a five-plex. And then in December, six months later, I got the first--I got a housing call from the housing office in Richland, which sat where the present day police station sits. And the lady offered me—she said, you could have it Saturday. It was a prefab. It had already been worn and pulled out. And I kind of hesitated. I said, I've already got something in Pasco. Well, she said, I could let you have a brand new apartment. That apartment was brand new. It was so clean. My wife, who was very fastidious, she didn't even have to clean cupboards. And the apartments have now been torn down by Kadlec for that newest building. And in fact, this morning I just went by and took a picture of Goethals Street, which is vacated. And it was quite a pleasant move to come out of a trailer into—a non-air-conditioned cinder block building apartment into a nice, brand new apartment with air conditioning, full basement, and close to work. And at that time, my office was downtown in the so-called 700 Area, which is basically where the Federal Building is--where the Bank of America is was the police station. And that's Knight Street, I believe. From there north to Swift, and from Jadwin west to Stevens where the Tastee Freeze was, that was the 700 Area confines. Probably about 22 buildings in there. The original thing prior to computers, everything was manual bookkeeping or accounting with ledgers. And they came out with a McBee Keysort cards, and it was called electronic data processing. It was spaghetti wire with holes in the boards, that type of thing. That building had to be a special airlock building. And that's the Spencer Kenney Building beside the Gesa Building. That building is built especially to house equipment. And they just went from there. And I moved around my office. And after 15 years, I went into what they call operations. I was onsite services, which—did that for 17 years. And that was probably the better part of--second better job that I had, I guess. The transportation and everything, onsite support services. The whole point there. That job took me all over the plant. I established inventories. I took some of the first inventories of construction workers' supplies and tools and shop equipment, rolling stock. My name was Mud. They thought so much of me they gave me a desk in the corner of a big lunchroom. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: So you did work at various places then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Yes. Well, yes. My very first location was in North Richland, then called North Richland Camp, where the bus lot was--the maintenance shops. I'm trying to establish a point up there—what's over there today? There's a big sand dune on your left going by the automotive shops, past the bus lot, where the bus lot was. Opposite that sand dune on the other side of Stevens was a bunch of one-story temporary buildings. That was North Richland Camp. And that's where my first accounting job was there for two or three years. I had been there—I came there in June. And in January of '52, had 22 people along in my department that I worked in. I was a junior clerk at that time. Took me four years to get onto the management roles, but I did. But anyhow, in that room they came in there six months later. After I'd only been here six months, AEC, predecessor to the OA. The AEC has taken over more management, more responsibility. So we're going to be laying off a lot of people. I had only been here six months. And so others grabbed straws and went different places. I always said either I was too ignorant or lucky, I don't know what. But I just sat still and it panned out for the better. I didn't get laid off. I moved from there. But I went downtown to the 703 Building, which stood where the Federal Building is now. There's a building to the rear that the city owns called 703. That was the fourth wing. 703 was the frame construction, the three floors. And the later years, they added a fourth wing out of block building. Made it more permanent. That's why it's still standing today. Now, that was my second location. And then I got on the management role in '55, which meant I went exempt and no more pay for overtime. And went out to White Bluffs site—town site, and that's where the minor construction was located. Minor construction, it's the construction people that are specially trained in SWP, radiological construction work, as opposed to run-of-the-mill construction. And they're the ones that had never had any accounting at all for any equipment, supplies, materials or otherwise. And that's where I had the lunchroom office experience. It so happened that they established--I brought an inventory procedure and established that first inventory during a strike. We had to cut government-owned tool boxes. But still, the workers thought they were private. And we had to cut locks in order to take inventory. And then we feared for our lives when they came back. Pretty rough day sometimes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: What timeframe would that have been you were out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: That was 1955 to '56. A couple of years there, and then another person took over from there and I went into budgeting at that point, from accounting to budgeting. And I did that for--until 1963. And then I moved out to the so-called bus lot, which it was. 105 buses and all that. And I was out there for 17 pleasant years, budgeting, billing rate—Because we were the supplier of all plant services. So we had billing rates to the reactors, and the separations, and the fuel prep, and--whoever. The AEC, everything. We billed them, just as if we were like plumbing jobs. And that I enjoyed. That was probably my most productive period. And from similar work to that, I moved over—Let’s see, I was around when the Federal Building was built, but I didn't get into it. That was built in '69. I didn't get down there until 1980. Went down there a couple of years. And then they moved us out to Hanford Square where Battelle Boulevard intersection is. And I was there--I retired from that location in 1977. My wife and I retired the same week. I've been retired 26 years now at the end of this month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Was your wife working at the Hanford Site as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: She worked after the kids were grown, like most stay-at-home moms do. She stayed until the daughter was of age, and then she went to work for a credit union, which was the government credit union, which was merged later on with Gesa. But that was an interesting job. They worked two hours a day, three days a week. Because it was all hand done, no mechanization. And then she got a job offer from the department in the central stores and purchasing department. She worked there eight years. In 1986, the income tax law changed a lot of things for all of us, effective in 1987. It meant that partial vesting was--IRS has to rule on all things like that. And that meant that if you had 10 years to vest pensions, once you pass the 50% point, whatever the vesting period is, then you were partially vested. And so she had 8 years out of 10. So she got 80%. But she had only worked eight years, so it wasn't a very large accumulation. Because I got my full. Of course, I'd been here 37 years I think it was, however that works out. 36. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I want to go back and ask you—when you were talking earlier about that period in '55, '56 when you were working out at White Bluffs town site. You mentioned radiological construction? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Oh, that—those construction workers worked under what they called SWP, Special Work Permit, which meant radiological. They had to wear--the clothing was called SWP clothing then. Today, they call it something else. But they worked under those conditions, so therefore they were subject to different rules. Whereas, construction workers on brand new construction weren’t then—they didn't have any of that to contend with. But once a plant went operational, it became radiologically SWP. This is not an anti-union thing. It's just a demonstration of how things were in those days. They had some old buses that--the original buses in town were called Green Hornets. And they were small. They had chrome bars that went right across the middle of your back. And for 35 miles, that was not very comfortable. When they got the newer buses that you see today, like Greyhound has for instance, they relegated those to the construction workers at White Bluffs. Well, since GE guys worked up at White Bluffs, we had to ride those, too. So all the office workers in the warehouse--GE employees rode one bus. The electricians rode another bus. Pipe fitters rode another bus, even though there were only two or three of them. It was really a segmented-type thing. As close to anything radiological that I came to when I conducting one of those physical inventories—we would be out--all of the construction materials were stored outdoors on the ground. I mean, like stainless steel. 308 stainless steel was pretty high-priced stuff. But the sheets were stored outside on pallets. Well, one sheet is worth thousands and thousands of dollars. So we had to lay down on the ground and count the sheets to do the inventory. This one day—the only time I came close to any contamination, we went back and boarded the buses that evening from White Bluffs. And we saw the guys on the dock there chipping with a chisel and hammer. That meant they were chipping out flakes of contamination. So we asked what was going on. They said, well, we're next door to F and H Areas. And F Area had coughed out something they said. And so I said, well, my crew was outside today on the ground. And if they coughed out because all the--some construction workers could drive their cars. That's the only people. Plant operations people all had to ride buses. No parking lots. So anyhow, those cars were all impounded. Had tape around them. They couldn't go home. And some of the guys, they had to take off their shoes, leave them, and be issued safety shoes in lieu of it. And I said, well, we were on the ground, too. So they proceeded to take us all off the bus and surveyed us with a wand. And they only found a few flakes on our back. And so we were allowed to go home. But that's as close as I ever came to getting contaminated. It's still scary. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Yeah. Obviously, Hanford, a site where security was prominent-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Very tight security, yeah. I was telling the young lady here that across the roadway on Stevens, as you near the 300 Area, there was a real wide barricade, probably eight lanes that you had to go through. And everybody had to stop, including buses. And the guard would get on the bus, walk down the aisle, and check every badge. And at that time, AEC had their own security airplanes. That was the purpose of the Richland Airport was for AEC security in the beginning. They had a couple Piper Cub-type airplanes. And one day we're on a bus going out to work in the morning. And all of a sudden, a plane just zoomed on by. Somebody had run the barricade. The plane goes out, lands in front of them, stops them, and that's how they got apprehended. Another incident of security, yeah, that's the subject? Many years later now, after 1963, and I'm in the transportation assignment. Airspace was off limits to all airplanes over Hanford because they had army artillery guarding it in the Cold War and all that. And a private plane had violated the space. And the AEC planes had forced it down. And once they're down, they can't ever take off. So after a week or so, they sent a lowboy trailer out there, loaded the small airplane on it, proceeded to come down what's the highway and now Stevens. And down where Stevens today, 240 and all that intersection is, there was only two lanes on the road then, not six. But at that juncture there, there was a blinking light. And they had to turn right to go to the Richland Airport. And this guy, the truck driver pulling this low-boy, he had never pulled an airplane before. And he didn't allow for that pull. Well, that blinking light clipped off a wing. And then he got time off. It was not really his fault, that pilot in the beginning. But there's a lot of—I guess full of interesting stories like that on security. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Great. Did you have special security clearance to work at Hanford at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Which? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Any special security clearance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Oh, yeah. I had Q clearance, which there's one higher than that, that's top secret. But Q clearance meant you could go into any and all areas. And because the nature of my job, I had that my whole time I was out there. Once you have it, they would tend not to take it away from you because it's quite expensive investigation to get it in the first place. I might mention something interesting in that regard. When I first came to work in 1951, why, the PSQ is Personnel Security Questionnaire. And it's about 25 pages long. And you had to memorize it, because every five years, you had to update it. Well anyhow, I filled that out, and you give references. And I have, in the Twin Falls area, a farmer that had been a neighbor farmer in Nebraska, where I was born, to my parents. I gave him as a reference because he had known me all my life. And that would be higher points. About a year or two later--I guess probably a year later I had gone back down to Twin Falls to visit the in-laws and I went and saw this farmer, family friend. The first thing he said to me, Bobby, what in the world did you do? [LAUGHTER] The FBI had come out to his farm and piled on the questions. And I hadn't told him ahead of time I'd given a reference. So they really did very, very tight security. It's probably tighter than it was when I was in the Air Corps. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: You mentioned riding a bus out to work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Yeah, everybody rode it, except those few construction workers in that minor construction area. They were permitted their cars. I don't know why, but no one else drove cars on the plant. Everybody rode on the bus. The bus fare was--of course, it was subsidized. It was a plant operation, like anything else is. To make the liability insurance legal, they charged a nickel each way on the bus, which later on got changed to a dollar or something. But many of the years, we'd ride the bus 30, 35, or 40 miles to work for a nickel. The nickel was just to make it legal. From those old green buses, they came up with some--I forget what they're called. More like Greyhound buses. And then in 1963, the year I went out to the transportation, they bought a fleet of Flxibles. And that's F-L-X. There's no E in it. That's the same kind of flat-nosed bus that the bus lines used today. And they were coaches, not buses. They had storage underneath. And so we had quite a suggestion system on the plant. And you would get monetary award or mention. And somebody said, well, instead of running mail carrier cars delivering mail to all the stops on the whole plant, load the mail onto the now available storage bins on these buses. And that was a pretty good suggestion award, monetarily, to somebody. And they did that. Took it out to a central mail station out there, and then dispatched it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: You mentioned different contractors you worked for over the years-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Uh-huh. The story behind that for the record is that General Elec--well, DuPont built the plant. That's who my dad worked for. And GE came in '46, I believe. And they were here until the group I was in--they phased out in groups. I was the last group to go out. [COUGH] Excuse me, in 196--'66. When the GE phased out, they had a dollar a year contract. Like Henry Kaiser and rest of them did during the war, for the good of the country. But they trained an awful lot of people in the infancy field of nuclear engineering. General Electric trained all those people here and then they opened up the turnkey operations in San Jose and Japan. But anyhow, AEC was still AEC at that point. And then, their wise decision--instead of one contractor, they would have nine. And so there were--the reactors was one. Separation plant was another. Fuel preparation at 300 Area was another. The laboratories, which is today basically Battelle. Site services. The company doctors formed a foundation called Hanford Environmental Health Foundation, which is the MDs that gave the annual exams. And the computer end, it was now getting into the infancy of that, computer sciences corps, we had the first contracts on that. So all together, there were nine contractors. And the portion that I was with went to ITT. They bid, came in and bid. I helped conduct tours of the facility for the bidders. Because I knew all about it and knew the ins and outs on some of the monetary parts that their accounting people would have questions on. We'd walk through shops and all that. Well, anyhow, ITT got the site support--site services. And we had that for five years. And austerity set in in the '70s. Well, '70. They said, we got to get site services' budget down to less than $10 million. And it probably was 13 or 14, I don't remember now. So my boss and another analyst, like myself, sequestered--talk about sequester. We sequestered ourselves in the then new Federal Building for about a week. Almost 20 hours a day, whittling and whittling and working on a budget. And there was only one conclusion. We had to cut everything in half. Went through all that sweat. Went up with our president, Tom Leddy, went upstairs to an AEC finance office, presented our whole case. And the man turns around and says, well, it doesn't make any difference, Tom. Your contract's not renewed anyhow. And so now, Atlantic Richfield, an existing contractor for 200 Areas, somehow the separations plant contractor that is an oil company owned, can all of a sudden manage a site service. And so they did absorb us. But politics were still around in those days. And there were three of us analysts. One had got transferred by ITT up to the new line--newly established Distant Early Warning Line from Russia up to Alaska. So that left two of us. And we waited around. We waited around and never got an offer. And they said, no, we can do it all without you. We don't need you. How come it took so many people anyhow? On a Friday afternoon, the man that I did budgets for saw me in a restroom. He said, you got an offer yet? I said, no, no. I'm working under the table with somebody else. Well, he says, if they don't hire you, I'm going to hire you. And so he went downtown, and about 4 o'clock, I got a call from the man that told me they didn't need us. Said they'd been kind of thinking. So I went over Atlantic Richfield under those. [AUDIO CUTS OUT] And so I'm not mad, not knocking—knocking them, that's just the way things were. And then Rockwell came to town. When they laid off everybody on B-2, I'm trying to think of other--in the community, something might be of interest for the history project. Back into the '50s. Those same green buses, they had, oh, four or five of them that ran in town like a modified transit system. I don't think they had that many riders, but it did. And also, the plant buses ran what they called shuttle routes. And those buses went into Richland on probably six routes and drove around the neighborhoods and picked up workers on the three shifts. And that's why up in the ranch house district, there was the bypass you'll see between homes. The pathways that go clear through lots. Blocks were so long that they had to provide a quicker route to the bus stops. Now, those rides were free because they were shuttle buses. When you got out to the bus lot, you paid your nickel, or a pass, whatever it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about accounting in terms of equipment practices. Were there a lot of changes during the time you worked at the Hanford site? Computer technology come in and change things? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Oh, yeah. For sure. In the beginning, as I mentioned earlier, all accounting was open ledgers and hand posted. Adding machine tapes at the end of the day trying to balance them all out. And we had that until--let's see. 1970s—I think it was 1977, we got our very first taste of it. Every other desk in a group of about 20 people in cost accounting that I was in. There was cost accounting, general accounting, and so on, property management. But anyhow, we had about 20 people. Every other desk had a monitor. Well, they referred to them as a computer. But they were just the monitor. And down at the end of our building was one printer. And everything was on floppy disk. Every program was on a floppy disk. Nothing was built-in because it was just the infancy. The big computers were down in the Federal Building. And a sub-basement below the basement was specially built for that. But back to our office. Across the hall from us, we had two small computers that are--to me, they're about the size of portable sewing machines. And I can't even remember the names of them because they don't exist today but they were the computer locally. So we wanted to run our work order system, we would phone down to the guy down at the other end of the building, insert the floppy disk from work system and wait. Well, I've got somebody's inventory. You have to wait. Because there's only one place to load up down there. So finally, you would put the floppy disk in. And then, you'd run it, which meant it'd run through it and print. But then you'd have to say, now print it. And they got one printer for the whole building. And so it's pretty interesting. Whereas today, I've got a laptop that I can virtually do everything with. But we graduated from hand posted ledgers right into computers. We didn't have anything in between. All of the reports that came out, came out on--referred to as IBM runs because everything was IBM. It was on paper that's about 18 inches wide with all these little perf marks on it to feed it. And you'd get one report and it would be about that thick. It was not that much information, but it's just so much printing. It's even hard to remember after 26 years how antiquated that is compared to today. But prior to that, it wasn't even the PCs. They called everything a PC. Or, was PC compatible. Because prior to that, the only electronic data processing nickname was spaghetti wire. I'm not very conversant in it, but it was some kind of a board that had a bunch of holes in it. They put wires in it and that went to certain things. But all it did was sort things. It didn't actually calculate them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the community of Richland. What was that like in the 1950s? I know it was a government-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: In the town? I guess I didn't cover that area. Everything—all houses were owned by government. We rented them. My wife and I and family, we came after the days of free everything. When the coal was free--all the furnaces were coal fed. Some people would convert them later on to oil. But anyhow, they were coal burning. However you got the coal, whether it was government days or you bought the coal from the courtyard, which is down at the end of what's now Wellsian Way. There was a coal yard where that lumber yard is. And that's why those railroad tracks that are abandoned and rundown, that's where the coal cars came in. And I can add something a little bit later about coal cars and the plant. But anyhow, we rented from the government. For example, that brand new apartment that I mentioned moving onto first was a two-bedroom, full basement. Steam heated because--I'll digress a little bit. All the downtown 700 Area, including the Catholic church, central church, the hospital, all 700 Area, including those new apartments, and all downtown shopping area were steam heated by a steam plant, which was located where the back door of the post office is today in that small parking lot. And that one plant furnished steam for everything. Well, back to this new apartment. The steam pipes ran through this full basement. And our kids played—there wasn't any yards. There was just apartments. And they would play in the basement because they were quite small. But they can remember today the pop, pop, pop in those steam pipes. And the rent for that two-bedroom apartment was higher than any other house in town. It was $77 a month. And the reason it was $77 instead of $70 was because it included $7 for electricity. Nobody had electricity meters yet. Even in that new place. So when they did put in electricity meters in all homes later, which had to be—during that time, the year we were there, which is December '51 to December of '52, sometime in that period of time they put the meters in. They took off $7 off the rent because now we're going to pay—and their theory is it was $5 for a one-bedroom place, whatever it was. $7 for a two-bedroom and $10 for a three-bedroom for electricity in those days. And nobody had electric heat, of course. And then, later on they put in water meters. And again, they had to come into your home, invade your home, and put in something. So it was strictly government prior to—well, another—and when I lived in the rental, if something went wrong with the plumbing, they would send out a plumber, but you paid for it, though. But later on when I went to the tall two-story, three-bedroom duplex houses, or called A houses, that was our first house after that apartment. And as I remember, I think the rent was--they had rent districts with low, medium, and high in the more desirable parts of town. And we were on Haupt Street across from uptown district where Hunt Street is and Jefferson Park. And I think our rent for that was like $47 because it was not a brand new apartment. And later on, we—I was on the housing list. And you applied and months or years later, you'd rotate up to move into a nicer place or a different location. But in the meantime, up came an F house, which is a two-story single family, kind of a Cape Cod-looking type of house. And that came up on the housing list. However, the caveat was that you had to cash out the present owner who had made some improvements. He had converted the coal to oil, they put in a clothesline, which nobody had clotheslines, and something else. So cashed him out for—I believe it was $750. And if I do that, I could have it, so I did. We lived in that place for 19 years. Our daughter grew up there and got married out of that home. And that's the only home she ever knew. [LAUGHTER] And we were there until 1977 when the real estate market in Richland was—this is community wide. The housing prices were moving 18% a year, about 1.5% a month. And I thought well, I don't need to be setting still. I mean, if I cash out here, and went on. So we sold that home. I listed it. Earl, my father, was very ill. We were going to Spokane. I listed it. A man came by, looked it out. What were you asking? I said, oh, about 17. He shook his head. And I said, too high? He says, no, 27,000. [LAUGHTER] Just to show you how bad things were. And so it sold right away. What are you going to do now? And I said, well. Would you want to try a mobile home? I know a jewel. And in those days, real estate men did not sell mobile homes. But this couple had bought their first house from him, or something. And it was somebody retiring out of postal, wanted to go back to Montana. Never smoked in it, never had any pets in it, no kids. It was the Cadillac of mobile homes. We were there two years, but that was long enough. Then we moved into the house that I'm still in. I'm widowed now for five years. The house we're in now, we've lived in that longer than in any other place. [LAUGHTER] But the community just has changed so drastically. South Richland. People say today they live in South Richland. We lived in South Richland, which was south of the downtown shopping district to the Yakima Bridge. That was South Richland. What is now South Richland out there was Kennewick Highlands. So it depends on who you're talking to today. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Yeah. Do you remember any special community events, parades, any of those sorts of things during the '50s and '60s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Community events? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Yep. Back in GE days, they had Atomic Frontier Days. And they were a big thing. Had beauty queens in it, rode in the float, and all that. Down at the—[COUGH] excuse me. For Atomic Frontier Days down at the lower end of Lee Boulevard, which is still the same shape today. They set up booths all on there. And it was a really big event. Before we had the hydro races even. People look back fondly on that. Talking about community, again, my mother, I said, worked for the post office, which—it stood on the corner of Knight Street, where it touches George Washington Way. There's some kind of a lawyer office building there today. And the old post office is the Knights of Columbus building on the bypass highway. But she would have to take the mail and go over to where the Red Lion Motel is today, at the Desert Inn, a frame building, winged out basically the same. And that was referred to as the transient quarters. And that was for upper management that were going through and it wasn't really a public motel, per se. But she would have mail for these big wigs over there. So she would have to go over there and have a badge to even go in the front door of that Desert Inn. Talking about badges, something humorous on that. We didn't wear things around our neck in the beginning because it was like a little pocket-sized bill fold. It was a little black bill that had your pass, your badge in it. And at every building you went into, you just pulled it out, flashed it to the guard. It usually was a lady security employee. There were guards in the building, but the person on the desk was a security clerk. But you'd just automatically—you’d open it like that and flag and put it back in your pocket. Every building you went into. Downtown, 700 Area, that first building I've referred to. One day I went into a restaurant and I just did that automatically [LAUGHTER] because it's just so automatic. Then they graduated to having the thing around your neck. And then also, if you worked in the outer areas, you had to wear a radiation badge in addition to your security badge. There was two types and one of them was a flat. And I don't know the difference. One's for beta and one's for alpha. I don't know. And one of them was a pencil shaped. And that's what they called it. And the other one was a flat badge, which was carried in something around your neck. And in all the areas I worked, and the places I described laying on the ground that happened and all that, my RAMs, they call it, never accumulated in my working life to be a danger. I had some, of course. Everybody does in the background. But I never accumulated to a danger point. There were people, some smart aleck people that would take their badge and hold it over a source at work so they could get some time off. Because if you got--what was the phrase? Anyhow, if they got contaminated, they put them on a beefsteak diet. And they stayed home. And they come every day and took a urine sample and all that stuff. But they had a life of riley. So that was nice. But the guys got canned that did that. But they would purposely expose their pencil so they could stay home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: So did all employees have those, either the pencil or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Only those that worked in reactor and separations areas, yeah. I mentioned these departments. Actually, the first department is Fuel Preparations Department, FPD. The present—the 300 Area--most of the buildings have now been torn down that you don't even see them there. But the north half roughly was fuels preparation department headed for the reactors. They took uranium and encapsulated it in cans, like can of peas in just so many words. And the south half of that 300 Area was a laboratory area, the predecessor of Battelle. So the fuel was prepared there. And it was machined and canned and sent as nickname slugs to the reactors. Then, the reactors loaded into all those little tubes. And then from the reactors, they come out the backside into those cooling pods and all that. And transported in casks to the 200 Areas, which are the separated area, separations. And the reactor area on the face side was not that dangerous. The 200 Areas only work on what they called the canyons, PUREX and REDOX, and those kind of buildings. But those cells were very, very hot. But you had to be measured no matter where you were. One of our site services was a decontamination laundry, called the laundry. And all clothing--I mentioned to you before SWP. Well, SWP, radiologic exposure employees wore whites. Carpenters and truck drivers and all that that didn't work around reactors wore blues. And so they were sorted. And we had different billing rates for that laundry because the blues only had to be laundered and dried. Whereas the others had to be laundered, dried, and decontaminated, checked in separate washing machines. And then workers wore—in the beginning, wore World War II-style gas masks for our air supply before they invented a moon-type suit. [LAUGHTER] But they wore gas masks. And the mask would come back to this mask station, which was part of the laundry. And they took the masks, and they'd take away the cartridge. They'd put the mask in dishwasher machines, in racks. That's how they would wash them. And then they would get them a new filter and package them up. Sanitize them and package them up like medical supplies would be in. I can't think of any other unusual operation out there like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I want to change gears just a little bit. President Kennedy visited the site in 1963. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Yep, 1963. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I was wondering-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: When they did that, they let all the schools out. And for the first time, non-workers were allowed to go in cars out there. It was a grand traffic jam, but it was quite a deal. And he landed his Air Force plane up at Moses Lake—at Larsen airbase at Ephrata, whichever you want to call it. And then helicoptered. And of course, like it is today, there were three or four helicopters. And you don't know which one he's on and all that bit. And here, everyone is gathered out the N Reactor area, which is a dual-purpose reactor. They captured the heat from the reactor, put it through a pipe through a fence to the predecessor to Energy Northwest, which was called Whoops. This was a big deal, a dual-purpose reactor. And N stood for new reactor, really. Anyhow, he comes in and they got a low-boy trailer. They fixed up down in the shops where I worked—my office was. And then built a podium just precisely for the President with him emblem and the whole bit. So I was privy to get to see some things like that. But anyhow, that was the stage. And it was a long low-boy, so it accommodated all the senators and all the local—Sam Volpentest, the guy credited with HAMMER, those type of people. Glenn Lee from the Tri-City Herald, you name it. So the helicopter comes in, blows dust over everybody. But anyhow, my wife and kids and all schools were brought out there. And I don't know how many thousand people were out there in the desert. And you could see President Kennedy. He got up on the stage. You get close enough, you could get pictures. Then, that same year in November, he got assassinated. So that was a busy year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Do you remember any other special events with dignitaries like that? Or other-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Well, I could go way back to World War II. I wasn't here, but I have a family connection on it. All over United States, they had war bond drives for various reasons to help. Build a ship, build an airplane. The one that happened here is not the only one. But they took so much money out of all the paycheck of Hanford workers, which included my dad as a carpenter. And the money they collected bought the B-17 Bomber, which was named Day's Pay. And that bomber—they had a bomber out here, a B-17, so that people could see it, but it wasn't the same one. On the Richland High School wall there's a mural. And that's a rendition by a famous artist of Day's Pay in formation. And so I can say that my parents contributed to that. And that's the story behind that one bomber. Every worker out there, construction or operations, they donated a day's pay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I wonder, what was the most challenging part of your job working at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: As an accounting person, my most challenging part was learning government-ese. [LAUGHTER] How to deal. And in that vein, that took a long time. But once you learn it, there is a way in the US government, period. As I'm sure there is in certain corporations. Later on, when I mentioned that I went down to the federal building for my--finally got located in that building, there was another fellow and I were old timers in accounting. And that year, they had five college grads, accounting grads come in. They hired five at one time. And they ran them by Marv and I for exposure. This is how things are done. This is how the contacts are. And our basic job was to squire these young fellows around and introduce them to certain counterparts and now DOE. Now, this is how you make appointments with them. This is what you do. This is what you never do. And likewise, with senior management. And it paid off because of those five, all four of them became managers or supervisors, and one of them became my manager within two years. Today, that same man is the comptroller at Savannah River Plant. [LAUGHTER] And so I like to feel that I contributed to them being—partially to them being successful. And so that's a reward. But probably the most difficult thing coming from a private—I worked for Colorado Mill and Elevator, which means I worked at a flour mill district office as a bookkeeper. And that's a small town deal in Twin Falls. To come to work for the government where some of your family despises you because you work for the government, but you had to fight that as well as learn how the government operates. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier, you were talking about coal being used for heat in Richland. You also said you wanted to talk about coal fires going up at the site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Oh, what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Coal fires? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Oh, yeah. Interestingly, the midway power station, substation at midway, is one of the reasons they built Hanford where they did because the Grand Coulee Dam had just been completed and an electricity producer—a major producer. And they put the midway substation down there. That basically was built to furnish huge amounts of power to Hanford, for the reactors, everything. Which in total—because I processed vouchers, I know it was 32 megs. Which today doesn't sound like much, but the whole plant bill was 32 megs when everything was operating. But if the power were interrupted, they had to have a backup. So every area had a huge diesel-powered--like water pumps, where they could pump the water from the river instead of by electrically. They had to be able to pump it because it was critical. Because all the water for the whole plant was taken in at intake water plants near the reactors along the river. The 200 Area water is piped to them in a huge line as raw water until it gets to their place. The backup is these coal-fired steam plants, is what I was trying to say. It got about 30-some cars of coal a day rolled through Richland past the cemetery. In the beginning, the railroad came down from the north, from Vantage area down along the Columbia River. There's a railroad bridge across the river, Beverly I think it is. And it came down to below the 100-B Reactor area. That's where the line ended. And then a plant had its own railway incidentally. It had a 285 mile-long rail line, high line and low line. Then, they built--in 1950, the year before I came, they built the line that we see today that comes from Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car rebuilding outfit is now, there is a roundhouse that it's rectangular in shape. But some 30 cars of coal a day came in here to supply because those plants were—they actually operated the steam plants. They didn't start them up from cold. They just ran constantly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: I wonder if you could provide sort of an overall assessment of how Hanford was as a place to work. What was it like as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: It was a great place for me. I came out of an area that was the agriculturally-oriented. And the Korean War started. Wages were frozen, you weren't going to go anywhere. I came up here and I got a new start, like pioneers did. I visualized that's what farming pioneers did the same thing. And it opened up a whole field for me, a big corporate field. And it's just been a great place to work. And it was not dangerous to me. I'm not afraid to drink the water here. I'm asked by a nephew in Hermiston constantly, how do you drink the water? And I said, well, it comes out of the river. How can it come out of the river and that plume’s out there? There's so many false stories around here. But working at Hanford, I think, by and large, almost all employees would tell you the same thing. It was a great place to work. The pay was decent. Maybe you didn't get rich, but it was decent. It's in a nice area to live in. When we came back in the '50s, or in the '40s, and before that even of course, shopping was pretty much nonexistent. They went to Yakima, or Spokane, or Walla Walla. That I didn’t—we didn't experience that too much by 1951 because by that time, the Uptown shopping district was built. And there was a men's store. And there was four women's stores. Because GE was the prime contractor, there was an appliance dealer that handled GE-Hotpoint appliances. We got employee discounts when we worked for GE. We also got 10% gasoline discount when we worked for Atlantic Richfield Hanford. But we just grew with the times. And it's just such an entirely different area now than it was. Just the world is different, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about? Is there anything you would like to talk about that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: Now really, work-wise at Hanford, I think I’ve pretty well-covered it. I'll repeat myself. My first 15 years was construction engineering accounting, which is an entirely different field than operations accounting. Operations accounting concerns itself with the reactors and separations and the site services that support them. But I learned a lot by working at Hanford. My family, three adult children live here, are retired here. My oldest son went on Medicare this year. [LAUGHTER] And that kind of puts you in your place quickly. But it's been a good enough place that they stayed in the area. And of the six granddaughters, grandchildren, four of them are in the area. And that's kind of characteristic with a lot of the Tri-City families. They stay or come back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bauman: Well, Bob, I'd like to thank you very much for coming and talking to us today. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000"> Bush: It's been my pleasure. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:02:19 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 3068 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1977 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Volpentest, Sam Kaiser, Henry Leddy, Tom Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview General Electric Atlantic Richfield Rockwell Westinghouse 703 Building F Area H Area 300 Area 200 Area 700 Area WPPSS HAMMER N Reactor 100-B Reactor Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Bush Description An account of the resource Bob Bush moved to Pasco, Washington in 1951 and later moved to Richland, Washington. Bob worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1987. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Grand Coulee Dam (Wash.) Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-17: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/7/2013 100-B Reactor 200 Area 300 Area 700 Area 703 Building DuPont F Area General Electric H Area Henry Kaiser Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Washington Public Power Supply System https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F180660234e109a77b4340610c4e50f43.jpg 3816611a7f7cbd88b1b5d25e8b651ee9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc9ba08478b7c6707489551cbfcf22ffa.mp4 8ba37550abf1599a853424689260db35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Buckingham Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Northwest Public Television | Buckingham_Steve </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Robert Bauman: We're going to go ahead and start if that's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Steve Buckingham: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: So if we could start by just having you say your name and spell it for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Okay. It's John Stevens Buckingham is the full name, and it's S-T-E-V-E-N-S, B-U-C-K-I-N-G-H-A-M, just like the palace. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: All right. Thank you. And today's date is November 13 of 2013-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: November 13, 19--2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: 2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: 2013. [LAUGHTER] I'm still in the last century. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: And my name’s Bob Bauman, and we're doing this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So if we could start maybe by having you tell us how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Okay. Well, first of all, I'm a native Washingtonian. I was born in Seattle, grew up in Pacific County. Went to Washington--graduated from high school in 1941, and went to Washington State College, at that time, in chemical engineering. Well, of course you know the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th of that year. I was able to finish off my first year at Washington State, and came back, the second year, the sophomore year, there were just mobs of people on campus recruiting for military. I tried several of them. I tried to get into the Navy V-12 program, but my eyes were not good enough. But I was able to get into an Air Corps program that they were looking for meteorologists. So I signed up for that. I had to get my dad to give me permission, because I was only 18 at the time. [LAUGHTER] But I was able to finish my sophomore year. I had just begun my freshman, my first semester, and I had just started the semester, my second semester, when I got the call to report to active duty. And the program that I had signed up for was this pre-meteorology program. And actually, it was kind of a neat situation. I was sent to Reed College in Portland, Oregon. And it was a little bit of a cultural shock, coming from a rather conservative Washington State to go to Reed College. We could smoke in classes. We could go up to a girl's room in the dormitory. [LAUGHTER] And they sang rather interesting songs on campus, too. [LAUGHTER] But Reed has very high scholastic standards, and I think the best math professor I ever had, I had at Reed College. But we went--we just had almost normal college classes: math, and physics, and geography. It was an interesting experience. Well, after a year at Reed, and also being in the military--because I think we must have had about--we had, what, two flights of cadets there, and we were all in uniform, of course. And after one year they decided they had enough meteorologists, so most of us were looking around for another program to get into. And I applied to go into communications, because I had a lot of physics background by then, and was accepted in that. They sent me to—oh, gosh, I can't even think. It was North Carolina. It was the first time I'd ever been down to the South, which was another cultural shock. [LAUGHTER] To see separate drinking fountains for black--colored and white. That's where we went through, essentially, Officers Candidate School. But the communications part of it was spent at Yale University in New Haven. That was about—oh, I think that was about six months that I was there going through communication. We had to learn all about radio and communications. But there is where I got my--I was commissioned, then, as a second lieutenant in the Air Corps. And about the time that I--just before I finished there, one of my friends had gone up to Yale University--to Harvard, because they were looking for people to work in radar. Well, why not? [LAUGHTER] So I applied, and was sent up to New Haven--not New Haven, up to Harvard. And there we went through a very intensive training on electronics, getting all the background on electronics. I used to kind of laugh. If you dropped a pencil on the floor went to drop to pick it up, you'd be behind three months. [LAUGHTER] It was really intensive training. And after that training, then they sent--most of us went downtown in Boston and worked on the top floor of a building that overlooked the harbor, developing radar they were working on. And that was really kind of interesting. But that was kind of temporary. That was just to give us some practical experiences. So that--then when that part of the training was over with, they assigned me to the 20th Air Force, which was the big bombers that were getting ready to go to Japan, and sent me to Boca Raton, Florida. And that was kind of another goof-off. We were just--we had to go on training exercises, flight training exercises once a week. So I got to fly all over Florida, all over the Caribbean. [LAUGHTER] Just goof-off things. It's really kind of almost embarrassing, because we'd go fishing and stuff like that on the boat, because they'd always had to send a boat out in case a plane went down in the ocean, and so we could go out on the boat and fish. While I was at Boca Raton, then the Japanese surrendered, and the war was over. Well, what are they going to do with all of us that had been trained? [LAUGHTER] I went out to Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they were bringing B-29s back from overseas. And all we did was remove the radar equipment from B-29s and stash it someplace. Well, I guess they decided they really didn't need us anymore. So I was able to be discharged and get back to the Washington State College to pick up my second semester sophomore year. Well, I had accumulated so many credits in going to these other colleges. So I went and talked to the dean, and he says, well, why don't you just switch to chemistry? Get your degree in chemistry or general, and then come back for a master's degree. Well, I had been on the East Coast for two years, and I did not like it back there. Being a--my mom and dad lived out in Pacific County yet, and I wanted to get home. I had two job offers when I graduated from college. One was in Troy, New York, and the other was here. General Electric was--had on the campus quite a bit of recruiting people, because they were getting ready to develop a new separation process called the REDOX process. And they were looking for people with scientific background, chemistry and so forth, to work there. Well, I grabbed the opportunity, and I arrived here on the 26th of July in 1947. I remember the day. [LAUGHTER] And that was really--it was very interesting, because Richland was--GE was really operating under the old DuPont system yet. It was the organization was still the one that DuPont set up during construction. We were in the technical department. And I was sent out to the 100 Areas, waiting for my clearance to come through, and we were just analyzing the water that went through the piles. And then when my clearance came through, they sent me to the 300 Area where they were developing this new separation process, this REDOX process, and we were doing the analytical control for REDOX process. And that was--of course, the development was using just uranium and other chemicals that didn't have any of the radioactive, really highly radioactive material other than uranium. But it was really very interesting, because a whole new line of metallurgy was being developed there. The metallurgy in—old metallurgy was stuff like smelting, and electrolytic, and stuff like that. Well, the chemical separation process they used out at Hanford was a carrier precipitation process, which did not allow them to recover the uranium. So this is why they were developing this new solvent extraction process, so they could cover both plutonium and uranium simultaneously. That was really quite a remarkable new metallurgical process that they were really developing here at Hanford, because how do you contact organic and aqueous phases, and stuff like that? And what kind of a contact? They had all kinds of ones that they were working with there in the 300 Area, and it was really very interesting. We were doing all the analysis for it. And then I was there maybe a little over a year, and they decided we needed to have a little experience with “real” material. [LAUGHTER] So they sent several of us of to be shift supervisors, out of the 200 Area, and the 222-T and 222-V Plants. That's where we got to work with real material. And it was just another training program. They were still--they had begun construction on the REDOX Plant. And about that time, then there was a little bit of an accident down in Texas, where a ship loaded with ammonium nitrate blew up and practically wiped out the city of Texas City. [LAUGHTER] And that was what we were using as a salting agent in the REDOX process. Well, that set the REDOX process into a big delay. What are you going to do with--we can't use ammonium nitrate. It's just plain too hazardous. They began looking at new salting agents at that time, and it took, oh, maybe six months or so before they finally came up with a new salting agent. Well, we just kind of fiddled around a little bit out in the labs. They were closing the business phosphate process labs. They combined them into just one lab. So several of us just kind of floated around doing other work that was kind of related to the REDOX process. For a while, I was in standards, where we were making radioactive standards they used to control the counting machines and all that kind of stuff. And it was not that interesting. Well, I had an opportunity then to go into an organization that was still there in the old 3706 Building in 300 Area. It was called process chemistry. And they were the ones who were working on the chemistry of the REDOX process. It was just--to me, it was just an absolute perfect fit, because I liked to monkey around with experiments and do research type stuff. And it was a neat bunch of people that we were working with. Some of them I still kind of chortle when I think of some of the stuff they pulled. [LAUGHTER] But I was able to move into that, and I was the third person to move out to 222-S, which was the laboratory for the REDOX process. And that's where we were, for our final laboratory was out there. And I stayed in that most of my working career. I did take a couple years to go over to work on writing the waste management tech manual, because they were--that was another process. We got to work in every new process that came along. We concentrated a lot on the REDOX process, because that was new. And then that chemist down in the Hanford laboratories discovered tributyl phosphate, so that opened up the whole new PUREX process. That had to be developed. And all the chemistry that went in to that development, we worked with. And then they decided they had to do something with the waste, and there was an outfit came in that was going to separate out fission products out of the waste. And we were going to have a big fission product market. Well, we separated out a lot of strontium-90 and cesium-137. And the strontium-90 was all right, because they could use that as a heat source for places where they didn't have much sunshine, deep space probes and so forth. The cesium, unfortunately, the capsule we set someplace leaked, and we had a little bit of embarrassment. That had to be cleaned up. So Isochem had taken--that was when the companies had separated into all these different companies. And the waste management just kind of petered out. We still had waste management we had to do something with. So I continued just working on it, but went back to the process chemistry laboratory. I finally ended up manager there for several years until I retired. But it was a real experience, that's all I've got to say. I feel like I was very fortunate in being able to work with so much new technology. And I think one of the more interesting ones was, we were recovering--out of our waste, we were recovering neptunium-237, and I had set up a small demonstration process in the laboratory. And for three years, I was the total source of neptunium-237 in the whole United States. [LAUGHTER] And that 237, when we first started doing it, we actually would convert the 237 to an oxide, and mix it with aluminum, and make a fuel element out of it that we stuck in B reactor to make plutonium-239. Plutonium-239 is a very unique isotope of plutonium. It is non-fissionable, but if you get a ball of it about the size of a golf ball, it's generating so much heat, it'll actually glow red. So they use it as a heat source for deep space probes. So we were working on snap programs and all this is really fascinating new technology. And I just feel very fortunate that I had been able to have a finger in some of this stuff that's really far out. We were looking--you know that one time they were going to convert that big building next to the FFTF into a facility just to process plutonium-238. That was another program that didn't ever develop. But we kind of had fingers in just an awful lot of stuff over the years. Some of the stuff I kind of laugh about. There was a--they developed silver reactors to remove iodine from our off gases coming out of the plant, because of the iodine contamination. And one of the silver reactors at the PUREX Plant blew up. [LAUGHTER] Well, it was not serious. It was all contained. But we had to try to figure out, why did that darn reactor blow up? Why did they have a reaction in there? And I still remember one of the old chemists, Charlie Pollock. He was the one who was in charge of it. But I still remember him making mixtures and putting it outside the lab door on a hot plate and standing behind the door to see it, was he going to pop? [LAUGHTER] We did an awful lot of innovation like that. It was just really--I think we did have a good time mucking with this stuff. I jokingly say that--every Monday we would have what they called a process meeting where the chemists and the process engineers would get together to discuss what we're going to do this week. And I always said we just got together to see how we're going to screw the plant up this week. [LAUGHTER] There was so much new technology, and every week somebody would come up with a new idea. They were the biggest pilot plants in the world, really. [LAUGHTER] Both the REDOX one and the PUREX one, just developing these processes. The whole--you know, when we first came here, we were living in dormitories. And the men's dormitory was on one side of town, and the women's was on the other side of town. We'd meet in the cafeteria. [LAUGHTER] And I still recall, when we were working shift works, we would gather in the cafeteria after swing shift, and we'd still be in there talking, or doing something with the guys who would come in for breakfast to go to work on day shifts. [LAUGHTER] Graveyard was always hell, because you didn't have time to do anything but sleep and eat. [LAUGHTER] And swing shift was kind of bad because the movie house, the movies didn't start until 4:00, and so we could go to any movies or anything. But it was tolerable. We formed an organization called the dorm club, where we went on--made a lot of camping trips, had a few beer busts. I tell about, I was social chairman for a while, and I found a big bargain on beer, Pioneer Beer. It was made by the breweries that they opened when they were doing construction during the war. It was not very good beer. I think I had five cases hidden under my bed in the dorm for weeks until I got rid of it. [LAUGHTER] But most of us met our spouses at that time. And it was really a unique situation early on in the late 40s and early 50s, because almost all of us had been in the same boat. We had started college. We'd been called into active duty during the war. We'd finished active duty and returned to college to finish our degrees. So we all had had the same type of experiences. Some of them were pretty hairy. In fact, I well remember one of my roommates was telling about being in the Philippines, and sitting on his bunk during one time, and said a big old snake crawled up between his legs. [LAUGHTER] I think I would have been of the roof and never come back down if that had happened to me! [LAUGHTER] But you know we had all had similar experiences, and it was our first time, really, that we were making any money that we could do things with. We could buy cars, and bought cars. So we went on just all sorts of trips. We learned--most of us learned to ski. And those ski trips, that was still was fairly new in the State of Washington. There was a rope tow up in the Blue Mountains at Tollgate. And, oh gosh, I think a season ticket cost $5. [LAUGHTER] And we would—went down, and I think we initiated the chairlift at Timberline, down at Mount Hood. We went to a lot of places just when they were first opening. So, in fact-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, let's see. I lived in the dorms several years, and then an acquaintance was able to get an apartment over on George Washington Way, and he asked if I wanted to share this apartment with him. You had to share. [LAUGHTER] You couldn't just live in one by yourself. So I then lived in that apartment for a couple of years, until I got married. Then we had a B house. [LAUGHTER] And that's where we were living when they began selling Richland out. And we were junior tenants in the B house, and way down on the move list, so there wasn't much chance of getting a decent house. My wife and I bought a lot over in Kennewick. And we didn't have much money, but we had a lot of energy, and we did an awful lot of building our own house. I think--I'm still living in it 54 years later. [LAUGHTER] So—but it's been--Oh, I don't regret a day of the work that we've done here. It's been challenging and interesting. After I retired from full time, I did a lot of part time work. I helped—was declassifying documents and I was a tour director, taking people on tours of Hanford. And I worked at the old Science Center down on the Post Office, before that became CREHST over there, where it is now. And the Visitors Center out at Energy Northwest, I worked there. And the FFDF Visitors Center. So it's been a wonderful life, really. [LAUGHTER] Fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: I wonder, when you arrived in--was it July 26th of 1947? What was your first impression of Richland, or of the place here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Well! When I graduated from college, when my folks came over to graduate, and we came back through here. And I still remember going on the old highway, looking over, and seeing the stack of the old heating plant that used to be downtown in Richland, and thinking, oh gosh, do I really want to come here? And it was a little different. Of course I had worked in very highly classified stuff during radar during the war. So I was used to the classification. But Richland was really different. You just didn't talk about your work at all. You kind of knew what your buddies did. And there was the separation technology people, there was the pile technology people, the fuel technology people. You kind of knew what they did, but that's all. You didn't really know any details. And you never talked, we never talked about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: You talked about the chemistry of the REDOX process. Could you explain sort of what that means, in terms of REDOX, what the process was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Yeah. The fuel is dissolved, of course. They take the jackets off with sodium hydroxide, and then you dissolve the fuel in nitric acid. And then they used this solvent, it’s an organic solvent. The stuff we used was Hexone, for what the chemical name is methyl isobutyl ketone, which is a paint thinner. And to make sure that we could extract, this Hexone would extract uranium and plutonium from aqueous phase into this organic phase. Well, you needed to add a salting agent to be able to improve that extraction. These were done in what we called columns. They were packed columns. They used some stuff called Raschig rings, and they were about 40 feet long. The feed would come about the middle of the column. The organic things would come in at the bottom of the column. And then there'd be a scrubbing agent came in up at the top of the column, and that would scrub some of this stuff out. Oh, it was a complicated process. Then we would oxidize the plutonium--or we would reduce the plutonium through a three valence state, and that wouldn't extract. And that was the separation column. And then you'd have to run both of these stuff through similar columns to clean it up. It was—really, it was kind of a marvelous process. It was a whole new metallurgical processing. It was something that hadn't been done, really, until we did here at Hanford. So just developing all these little techniques was quite a chore. And it worked! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Then you said you were shift supervisor in the 200 Area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Yeah, in the laboratories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: In the laboratories. So what sort of work did that involve at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, that was, then, that process chemistry that we were doing. But whenever there was an upset with the columns, there was all sorts of things, like the columns would occasionally flood, and they would just emulsify, and they couldn't get the organic and the stuff to separate. But why was that happening? And things like that. Sometimes the chemistry would get off a little bit, or we would get a carryover for some reason or other. It just—it worked, and it worked very well. But we were able to recover both the uranium and the plutonium. So we weren't putting uranium out in those old waste tanks. Then, you know, when we developed the PUREX process, we used the tributyl phosphate in a more dilute phase to go back in and recover that uranium we had stored from the old bismuth phosphate separation process. So you name it, we did it! [LAUGHTER] I kind of jokingly say that--you know, when DuPont was building this place, the war manpower boards told them where they could recruit, and they did a lot of recruiting in the South, because that was not highly industrialized. So that's why quite a few Southerners came up here to work. Well, Southerners are rednecks. [LAUGHTER] They can make anything work. And I really, I sincerely think it's a lot of the ability of those people to be able to do things, why this place even succeeded. And when you stop to think that that original construction and everything took place in 14, 16 months, it's just mind boggling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Given the sort of materials you were working with out there, why don't you talk about safety issues? Was safety emphasized quite a bit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, you betcha. You know, DuPont was a stinker on safety because they made gunpowder. You've heard the story about them getting criticized for making big profits doing gunpowder during World War I. So when they took over the contract here, they said they'd do it for cost plus $1, and they only received $0.80. [LAUGHTER] I think that's kind of an interesting story in itself. But DuPont was really--boy, if you saw something was unsafe, that was corrected right now. You didn't need to continue working in the unsafe condition at all. And I kind of laugh a little bit about. I think we were safer out at the plant than we were in our own homes. We'd have these dumb safety meetings. Once a week you had to go through a safety meeting. Sometimes they were boring as hell. [LAUGHTER] But the other thing was that when we didn't have any accidents for a certain length of time, we'd get a prize. I still have some of the prizes we won over the years. That was another thing. When GE was taking over, we could get GE--we could buy GE products at employee cost. You wouldn't dare buy a frying pan unless it was GE. [LAUGHTER] So there were many little advantages. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: I wonder, of the different things you worked on at Hanford, what were some of the most challenging aspects of the work you did, and what was some of the most rewarding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, I think one of the most rewarding ones was this neptunium-237. That was really a fun project, because about once a month we'd have to start up this little pilot plant, and you had to run it 24 hours a day for about a week to separate out this 237. That was a very challenging and very rewarding project, because it had a lot of interest. That, and the fact that it was also highly classified. They kept changing the classification, I think every month, you'd have a new name for it. One time it was Palmolive. [LAUGHTER] Let's see, what were some of the others? Birch bark. You never knew what you were supposed to call it from one month to the next, because it was a very high-priority thing. Also, when we had--they begin shipping most of it back to Savannah River, because Savannah River could make the 238 easier than we could here at Hanford. But I would separate out this 237, and I'd have to deliver personally to the mint car. That was the car that took the plutonium down to Los Alamos. I'd have to take that 237 up in a cask and put it on that mint car. [LAUGHTER] So there were a lot of little things like that. Some of the challenges, we had some technical problems over the years that were real problems. Like we had a ruthenium problem out at the REDOX process that was a little bit of a challenge. We spewed some plutonium out on the ground out there. And plutonium is kind of a nasty stuff, because it doesn't absorb. It migrates towards the river fairly fast. So there were a few of those little things that were a bit of a problem. Also, then, during the Cold War, when production was so critical—you know you just didn't shut down for hell or high water. And we were running out of waste storage space. We came up with a way we could treat the waste and make it crib-able, so we could put it just to a crib, an underground crib, like a dry well. And that was kind of a dumb thing to do. [LAUGHTER] But it was necessary, because we had to get plutonium out, somehow or other. And we didn't have waste storage space. It takes too long to build a waste tank. And some of the interesting little things is some of the crushers found that nice salty stuff down in the soil, and we had an awful lot of hot poop spread around in the desert at various places. [LAUGHTER] Some of those challenges were kind of challenging! We didn't get too involved in it, but somebody was getting involved in it, and we always knew who it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: So the situation where you said that you sort of spewed a little bit of plutonium, was that at PUREX? What happened with that situation? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, they were recovering americium from the plutonium down at 234-5, and they had a criticality event down there. That was a very challenging situation. I happened to--the engineer who was in charge of that was a good friend. He was at a Boy Scout—at a heat down along the river, and they went down and got him, and brought him back, so we could do some work out there. But that was really kind of scary. That's the only really serious incident. That and Mr. McCluskey’s, when the glove box blew up in his face. And I always blame the union on that, because the union was being very stubborn about settling the strike, and that's why the column had sat with this acid on it for so long. Then when they started it up, it took off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Are there any other incidents or things that happened during your time working at Hanford that really stand out to you? Humorous things, or serious. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: I can't think. I can think of several humorous situations that occurred, particularly when I was a punk kid supervisor out there in the 222-T Plant. We had quite a few women workers out there, and I swear, I think those women used lay awake at night to see how they could embarrass me. [LAUGHTER] And this one—the hot water tank was in the women's restroom, and it had a check valve in it. Well, the toilets were all these pressure-type toilets. And this one woman went in to use the toilet, and the check valve didn't check. She burned her bottom. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Oh, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: And I had to take her to first aid. And she was not at all hesitant about telling me exactly what had happened in detail. [LAUGHTER] I about died having to write up the accident report! Had employee been instructed on the job?, and stuff like that. [LAUGHTER] But I still chortle about that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Yeah. You talked earlier about how during the peak of the Cold War, there was focus on production, production. At some point, that leveled off, and there was sort of a decreased emphasis on production, and of course, eventually, a shift toward cleanup. But I wonder if that sort of shift away from really high production, how that impacted your work at all? Did that change? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: It didn't seem to change it an awful lot. Those are very complicated processes out there. There not just simple processes, and they seem to have a tendency to something always going wrong. Like we had a situation of the columns flooding. And it was detergents that was put in through the Columbia River, up in Spokane and Wenatchee, up above us. Our water treatment system didn't remove this detergent. It was a phosphate detergent, and there it came through with our water purification stuff that we were doing. I think it gave us a bit of a headache for a while, of why there were these columns flooding all the time, and little situations like that. They seemed to come up, they'd crop up at weird times. Or a piece of equipment would fail, and how do we do it. Just—if you ever go out to the area, as you pass the old PUREX Plant, there's a tunnel that comes from the end of the PUREX Plant almost out to the highway, and there's a vent out there. And that tunnel is full of equipment that failed in the PUREX Plant that they shoved it into this tunnel and left it there. That's got to be cleaned up someday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: I was going to ask you, President Kennedy came to visit in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. Were you present that day? Were you able to see-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, you betcha. They took us—anybody who wanted to go in a bus down to the place where they were going to have the dedication. My wife, and her sister, and my two kids came out. And I don't know how my daughter ever found me in that crowd down there, but she spotted me somehow or other. [LAUGHTER] We were so far back you could hardly see him. But that was the first time they actually allowed people to come on the project, too. So it was really—I think my wife and her sister said they sat for an hour waiting to get through the barricade before they could come out. They were both quite amazed at what they saw when they got out here. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. And as you look back at all your years working at Hanford, how would you assess it as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, some of the companies were much better to work for than others. I really enjoyed working for General Electric, because that's the company I first came to work for here. And Arco was a good company to work for. Isochem was just kind of iffy. They were very small—and I don't--they didn't quite have their act together yet. Some of the other later companies, I thought were just, nah. That was one of the reasons I quit when I did. I quit a little early. I took retirement at 63, because I just couldn't stand the company that was here at that time. They knew how to build airplanes, but they didn't know how to run a chemical plant. That shouldn't be in here. I hope you edit that out. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] You did talk earlier about some of the technology that you saw. I wonder, are there any other examples? Or you could talk about some of the new technology that you saw develop during this time you were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, gosh, the technology was moving so fast. You know, they had this Fast Flux test--they built the Fast Flux Test Facility. That was all new technology. And the plutonium recycle reactors—that was all new technology. I'm just amazed at the technology that they were developing here. And it was all developed here. We didn't get a lot of credit for it, unfortunately. [LAUGHTER] And I feel kind of bad about that, because it was the cleverness of the people working here that developed some of this technology. Even up there in that--in what they called the old separation plant, the old bismuth phosphate plant, the design of the equipment in that is just very unique. It was the first time that high-level radiation radioactive material was being handled, and they had to come up with a technique of handling it. There was a crane operator--there was a big long crane that ran the whole length of that 800-foot building. He sat in a lead-lined cab behind a concrete parapet. The only thing he had was optics that he could see down into the cells. And how he could take those--you look into one of those cells down there, and it's like looking into a plate of spaghetti. There's so much junk in it, so much stuff in there, pipes. And all everything that comes in has to come through these connectors. And he, the crane operator, had to know which one he had to take off first to get in, and another one in behind it, or something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: And just the technology they went through, and the learning process. I don't know how anyone was ever to do it. I've talked to one old engineer that, fortunately enough, I could take on a tour one time. He came out here with DuPont during the early construction, and he worked on quite a bit of it. He was here, and they gave him a special tour. And I happened to be the one who took him around. It was one of the funnest days I had, because he told me all sorts of things about some of the stuff that he had worked on. He had helped design the cask carts that carried the fuel from the reactors up to the separation plants, and he knew the people who would design the connectors for the separation plants, and some of the design on the waste tanks. To me, some of the stuff that they were able to do here, it still just boggles my mind. There was an awful lot of smart people working on this place, that's all I've got to say. A lot smarter than me! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: One more question. I teach a course on the Cold War, and of course most of my students now were born after the Cold War ended. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: You know, I wonder, as someone who worked at a place like Hanford during the peak of the Cold War, what you would say to a young person who would have no memory of the Cold War at all, or much of an understanding, what it was like to work at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: It was a little scary, because we were surrounded by gun emplacements. And I still remember going home after shift one day, and there was some gun emplacements right at the bottom of the Two East Hill, and they were all raised, like they might be ready, had a warning or something. And you kind of wonder about that. And we went in, we always had to have these--in all of the buildings, we had supplies that we could hole up in case of an attack. And all of us had junk in our cars, an evacuation plan. I know my wife and I did. I had canned goods that I would put in the trunk of the car. And if we were attacked, she was to meet me at a certain places in Yakima, and we were going to head for the Willapa Hills. [LAUGHTER] The Willapa Hills are a very remote part of Pacific county. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Wow, so you did have preparations in place in case, because-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Yeah. And some people even built--there were a few bomb shelters built around. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Well, is there anything else about your work at Hanford, or your experience there that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to share? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, gosh, there's so many things that went on. I could sit here and talk probably all afternoon about some of this stuff because new ideas would come up that I can't remember. Well, I can remember shortly after I had gotten into the laboratory down at 3706 Building, one of the women that I was working with, she and I did more uranium analysis in one shift than anybody had ever done. [LAUGHTER] We were very proud of that. We just hit every sample size as perfect. And it was--we just were boiling out uranium analysis like crazy. [LAUGHTER] I can't remember now, but it was--there were little incidences like that that were kind of fun. And for a while the coveralls that they were giving us had pockets on them to take the size. They were colored. And there were some of those women, I tell you. I like women, but I think some of those gals that used to work down there had a warped sense of humor. They loved to grab ahold of these pockets and rip. They'd rip the pockets off! Well, they came up behind me one time and grabbed the pockets, of and ripped, and the pockets didn't come off, but the whole seat came off. [LAUGHTER] That was when I was still single, and embarrassed very easily. And I had gotten a blue sock in with my white underwear. My shorts were blue! [LAUGHTER] Oh, they got such a kick out of my blue underwear! I could have slapped them, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Oh, that's quite a story. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: One of the things that we did, I think we were a lot closer. We worked closely with each other. And we'd have wonderful--we'd call them safety meetings in the tavern. [LAUGHTER] They were just--We'd have a lot--we had a lot of parties. But they don't seem to do that anymore. I don't know why. We were more like a big family, and if anything happened to somebody, like a death in the family, we would all rally around them and do things like that, like families did. And Richland was really a very close little community back then. If anybody got into trouble, boy, you sure knew it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your memories and experiences. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, I enjoyed doing it, because I think it was a very unique time in history. And I'm afraid that we're beginning to lose that, because my--now, I'm getting to the age where World War II veterans are dying off like flies. [LAUGHTER] So many of my friends have already gone, and it's just a little shocking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Right. Thank you, again, for coming in. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: You're very welcome. Thank you for asking me. </div> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:58:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 5273kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 222-T Plant 222-V Plant 222-S Laboratory Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) N Reactor B Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) 234-5 Building (Plutonium Finishing Plant) 400 Area / Fast Flux Test Facility Building 3706 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1947-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Pollock, Charlie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Buckingham Description An account of the resource An interview with Steve Buckingham conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 13th, 2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-11: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Nuclear instruments & methods Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 222-S Laboratory 222-T Plant 222-V Plant 234-5 Building (Plutonium Finishing Plant) 300 Area 400 Area Arco B Reactor Building 3706 DuPont Energy Northwest Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.) General Electric Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F54cd3ac226c71cfb58dbac14575b96eb.jpg f287161aff407d507797401b6b03f0d5 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1b4d000db44e1cb8761e58f9bedc02ab.mp4 55abe4852274c66ce085092001035e43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Loris Brinkman Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Northwest Public Television | Brinkman_Loris </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Loris Brinkman: L-O-R-I-S and Brinkman is B-R-I-N-K-M-A-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Robert Bauman: Thank you very much. Thanks for letting us talk to you today, I appreciate it. Today's date is October 29, 2013. My name is Robert Bauman and we're conducting this interview in Richland, Washington. So let's start, if you could, Loris, by having you tell us about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, and when did you arrive? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Okay, I was, as I stated before, I spent seven years with Civil Conservation—with the CCCs. And then I got a job with DuPont spent one year at Rosemount Minnesota, and that was from 1942 to '43. So I came out here in September of '43. And I came out here and they sent me out to 200 West. I came out to 200 West, and there wasn't much going on there yet. It was pretty in the beginning part of it. Now they were digging--they were excavating for the 221-T Building. And I think they were probably building on the powerhouse. Well, my first job, they had to get water down there. And there was a water line just north of us, as I recall. And the first thing we had to do is to have a temporary water line, and that was made of wood pipe. And it was laid out, and it was laid out like this, so it made a circle around there so that all the facilities would be able to get water from this water line. And I was given the job of somebody has to follow the work. And there were be places where we'd have to pour some concrete. And it was wood pipe. And wood pipe was certainly new. And so when we got that pretty well taken care of, I was given the job to follow the steam lines. Now as I said, the powerhouse was under construction. And the steam line that came out of the powerhouse was about 16 inches in diameter. And you see, at that time, there was the T Building and the U Building. And the steam lines came out of the powerhouse, which was kind of halfway in between the two. And then one line went up towards the T Building and the other line went down toward the U Building. Well there was construction or excavation being going on at the--I think they called it the 221-T Building. And the steam lines were necessary because they were going to furnish the steam for all the construction there. Now in the steam line, it doesn't sound like a very important job, but we would probably go 300 to 400 feet. And then there would have to be a, what they called an expansion loop there. It would go like this. And that was to take care of the expansion when the steam was in operation. Now the thing that we did was we would construct maybe three--I don't remember--but 300 to 500 feet in length. And then there would have to be a loop to take care of the expansion. And what we would do is to construct a line, and then about midway between these expansion loops, we would cut the line and take out about two or three inches, as I recall. And then they would put chains on there and bring those two together and weld them together. Now the reason for that is that the tension was on there when it was cold. And when they put the steam in the line, the expansion would make the steam line pretty much without tension on it. You get the idea? And along with that steam line, I worked on construction of several permanent buildings that were part of the main construction there. And that was the--we had the laundry and we had the office building, and a few buildings like that. I worked on those, too. Now when the work was all complete, my portion of the work was finished there, I went to the 200 East Area. And I don't really remember what I did there, but I think it was probably similar to what I did over in the West Area. And after about a year's work there, the work that I was doing was pretty well completed. And so I went to--excuse me. See, at my age names don't come quite like they used to. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: That’s right, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: But I went to Indiana, to the Indiana Ordinance Works. And I worked there for about a year. And by that time, after completing the work there, I went to the Wilmington head office there, and I worked there for about two and a half years. But you know, after being out here a year, I couldn't quite get this place out of my mind. As we said, if you can last six months, you're going to like it. But many people came out here didn't last six months. When I came out here in the beginning, I was going to--the fellow that I was working with at Rosemount was already out here. And he had a room in Pasco, and I was going to room with him. So when I got out here and I called his number, and I said, I'd like to speak to Hamm. Mr. Hamm terminated last Friday. And there was another man with me and he said, Mr. Brinkman, I don't know anything about Mr. Hamm. I will tell you one thing, it takes a damn good man to stay out here. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, after another year down at Wilmington--or down at Indiana Ordinance Works, I went to Wilmington and I stayed there for about two and a half years. And then there was an opportunity for me to get back out here. I didn't hesitate. I came out here again. Got out here in--I think it was--1948. And I've been here ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What was it about the place that made you want to come back? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: One of the things is the climate. This is ideal climate. We don't have these 40 degree weather that we had in Wisconsin. Once in a while it did get cold here. One time. I was, let’s see—we did have six days of cold weather. And the temperature got as low as minus 26 or 27 degrees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: And that was six days. And then I went out in the evening and oh, I says we have a chinook. A chinook--they called it a chinook when the warm breeze would come in there. And it's chinook. And the temperature went up 40, 50 degrees in the night. So the cold period was over with. But I just like the weather. I like the people that were here. They were people that were out here for one purpose, we've got to get this thing built. We need this in our war. So that was the main thing that I liked out here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Mm-hm. When you first came in 1943, what were your very first impressions of the place? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, I really didn't hate the place. A lot of people did. We didn't have very much sunshine. There was about six weeks the sun didn't shine. But I really enjoyed the place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And when you came out here to work, what did you know about the work you were doing or what Hanford was for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, in the first place, you didn't know what we were going to make here. Nobody's--there were a few people that knew, but that was not discussed. We did not discuss what we were going to make here and what it was going to be used for. That was absolutely quiet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Do you remember when you found out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yes, when I was--I think it was--in Indiana Ordinance Works when they dropped the bomb. Then I knew what we were doing out here. That this was very important. And the bomb was very important. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And when you worked out here in 1943, do you remember how much money you made? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yes. I made--I think it was--about $85 a week. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And how many hours a week was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, when I first started out here it was nine hours, six days a week. Put in about 54 hours. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And then when you came back in 1948, what sort of job did you have when you came back here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: I have to think a little bit on this, on what I did. I don't remember what exactly what the first job was. But my biggest job after getting back here was construction of--supervising, or not really supervising, but seeing that the job was done according to the plans of the tank farm. We had these underground tanks. You see, we had waste, and that waste had lots of plutonium in there. We didn't get it all out. The uranium was changed in--part of it was changed into plutonium. And then that was in the 100 Area. Or--yeah, the B Area and 100 Areas. And then in the 200 Areas they separated the plutonium. And the plutonium was used to make the bomb. And then there we had tank farms. Oh, I'm trying to think how many, 750,000 gallons or something like that. And we usually had 12 steel tanks. And we would dig a hole way down deep. And these tanks were, I think, something like 75 feet in diameter. And we'd pour a concrete base and then we'd build from there. And they would go up about 75 feet. And then when they were all completed, then we'd backfill again. And then we'd have these tanks ready for the waste from the process that was going on there. And I think--I don't remember just how many--but we had maybe three or four tank farms. And I worked on those tank farms. I was known as the tank farm engineer, something like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: So what did being a tank farm engineer involve? Sort of, supervising? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, you have to have somebody there. We would have a contractor do the work. And we would have to see that it was done properly, check everything that was done. And be very careful about the back filling and that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: So how long did you work the tank farms? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh, I think maybe two or three years, probably. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What did you do after that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, I have to think now. [LAUGHTER] After that, I got involved mostly with--as we call it--the project engineering. And with this place there were always new facilities being created. And we call them a project. Maybe we would design this project and then follow the construction of it. But there was considerable work being done all the time. And I was part of the project engineering work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And so how long in all did you work at Hanford? When did you stop working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Okay. I was 59, and that was in 1971, I think it was. And then I retired. And about a year later, why, they called me and said, would you come out and help us? And I said, no! And then I thought about it a bit and I said, wait a minute, call me tomorrow. I'll think about it. And they called the next day, and I says, I'll come out and work about four months. And you know, I enjoyed it very much. And the next year I went out again for four months. And I did that for four years! Finally I got to the stage where I said, no, I think I've gone long enough. It's now time for me to travel. So after that, why, then my wife and I traveled all over the world. We took three month tours and went around the world, down South America, and that sort of thing. And we loved that very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: I want to go back to when you first came to Hanford in 1943, you mentioned that a lot of people stayed for just a little while and left. What sorts of things were there to do for fun? Was there entertainment available? What sorts of things happened here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, they had a big place down at Hanford itself. They built barracks for people. And they had, well, for one thing in ten days they built a great big building which was the entertainment building. And they had party—or dances and that sort of thing. And they had beer places around. People could buy a big jar of beer. And they had lots of those. They had to have facilities here that would interest people so they would stay. And they spent a lot of money on that to make interests for people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And you said when you first came you--did you stay in Pasco? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: No, let's see, I first stayed up at Grandview. I stayed there and worked back and forth. Then I got a house in Richland. And that was great, then. And I stayed there until I moved out to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: To Indiana? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, Indiana. Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And then when you came back in 1948, where did you--did you move into Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, right in there. I got a house. I had got a house practically right away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What was Richland like as a community in the 1940s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, it wasn't a big town in the 1940s. Oh, you mean before we came out here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: No, I mean when you were here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: All right, when we were here—see, I have to think a little bit. We had— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Woman one: Hello? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: We had a number of stores. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Woman: Hello? That’s okay, I’ll come back later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: But Pasco had stores and Kennewick had stores. And most of the shopping was done over in those areas. But we did, then, we had the C. C. Anderson place here. And that was a place, they had good material in there that you could buy. It wasn't a very big shopping area here, but it was adequate. I would say that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Did you go over to Kennewick and Pasco occasionally, then, to shop? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh, sure. Yeah. And the funny part of it was my daughter, when we got over to Kennewick, she said this is a real city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: It's a little bit different than Richland was. But Richland was being built all the time and adding new facilities, new stores, new houses all the time, until it got to be a pretty good place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: I’ve had a few people I talked to from that period talk about the dust storms. Was that an issue at all that you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yes, we had dust storms. And when we had a dust storm, we'd close the windows, of course. But there would be dust all over the inside of your house. And that was the thing that sent quite a few people out of here. They'd have a dust storm and then they'd leave. But it didn't bother us, we just took those things in stride. We liked—by that time I liked it here. And when we came back on the second time, we got this house, and right across the street was the school. My wife went over and said, I'm a teacher, I have a master's degree, I would like a job. She got a job as a fifth grade teacher just like that. [LAUGHTER] And she taught there for 23 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And what school was this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: In fifth grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Do you remember which elementary school it was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, it was Lewis and Clark. And we lived right across the street from there, right on the corner. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Oh, okay, did you have one of the alphabet homes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, H house. And then the time came when we were able to buy that house. And that was wonderful, too. That turned into a good deal for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Do you remember how much? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, I paid about $6,000 for it. Then I added. I did some construction on it. I added--enlarged the two bedrooms. And when we sold it, boy, I don't mind saying it, we sold it for $85,000. And made a return of say, like, $76,000 or $77,000. So that was a good thing for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: That's a pretty good deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Yeah, it was a very good deal. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: President Kennedy came out here in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. I wonder, were you there? Did you see him when he came at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: I sure was there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: What do you remember about his visit here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: I don't remember anything about his speech. He just, as I recall, he emphasized the fact of the importance of this work here. That was probably the main thing. And he tried to make us feel like we were really doing something great for the country. And I guess we were. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: You and your whole--were your whole family out there as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh yeah, the whole family was there, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: A very special event. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: You see, they--it was wonderful for us to have that school there. [LAUGHTER] Because my wife could go over there and teach and then get back in time. And when I got home the meals were ready. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: So I wanted to ask about security at Hanford. Did you have to have special clearance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Oh yes, yes. Yes, we had to have Q clearance, mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Are there any other events that really stand out in your mind? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Any what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Any events that stand out in your mind, or things that happened during the time you worked at Hanford that you just thought were really interesting or important? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, I should remember, but my mind doesn't function like it should in that case. I don't know that there was anything—important things that we had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: How was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Wonderful, as far as I was concerned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: And what was it about working there that made it wonderful for you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, we worked out in the area most the time. And people--we all worked together. That was the thing, I think, that was—that we were all working together, helping to accomplish what we were set out to do there. Now my mind doesn't work quite like it should. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Of the different jobs you had at Hanford, was there one that was a favorite for you, one that you really enjoy the most? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: It wasn't the tank farm. That wasn't it. But I think the part I liked the best was in the latter part, we worked on various projects. And the projects were our projects, so to speak. And we were interested in seeing that those--we probably designed them, worked out the design and then followed the construction of it. And we were just anxious to see how it worked out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet, or that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet, in terms of either working at Hanford or living in Richland, that you think would be important to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, as I said, at my age here, my mind doesn't do quite what I hoped it would do. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: You're doing great. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well, we just, oh, when we got, as far as the schools are concerned, we had such great sports here. Our basketball team has won the state championship three times. They had won the state championship in football once or twice. And this has just been a very wonderful sports area. We've had quite a few basketball players that played well for colleges. And as I said, we won state championships three times and got second place maybe three or four times. It was just wonderful sports. And we were always--my wife and I were always interested in sports. We would go to the other cities and that sort of thing. My son played on the basketball team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Great. Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us talk to you today. And for sharing your memories. I really appreciate-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: My mind doesn't work quite the way it should right now. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: It's working pretty darn well, myself. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Thank you, again. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Brinkman: Well I'm sure glad that if I have anything here that will be of some use to you, I'm sure happy to have helped out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003"> Bauman: Absolutely. Thank you very much. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:35:01 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 193 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 East Area 100 Area B Area 200 Area N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1943-1971 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Loris Brinkman Description An account of the resource An interview with Loris Brinkman conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Loris Brinkman passed away on August 1, 2017. <a href="http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tricityherald/obituary.aspx?n=loris-b-brinkman&pid=186392713">Obituary</a>. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 200 East Area B Area Hanford (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa3e95651e43280d6b38df2334d4b9bd7.jpg 93319f909b337694619c948c902056f2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb112fda002fb452e9c33e5f26f96a121.mp4 04a2a869186085ff62fc580b54df4227 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Bair Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> <div> Northwest Public Television | Bair_William Robert Bauman: Let's start by just having you say and spell your name. William Bair: Okay. William Bair, B-A-I-R. Bauman: Great, and my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 14th of 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I thought maybe we could start by having you first tell us what brought you to Hanford, how and when you arrived here. Bair: Okay, well, actually it's kind of ironic because I wouldn't be here or anywhere if it were not for the atomic bomb and the plutonium that was produced here at Hanford. I was in the infantry during World War II in Czechoslovakia, and when the war was over in Europe, we were shipped to the Pacific. We had been trained for amphibious warfare, and when problems got tough over in Europe, they shipped us to Europe instead. So we were prepared and trained for Pacific warfare. And we got down to the Pacific, of course, the bombs had been dropped, and instead of going into Japan as an invasion army, we went in as an army of occupation. I have a few things I remember, but I think I should tell people that is when we got down to the Pacific, as far as I could see, there were ships. The ocean was just covered with ships prepared for the invasion--unbelievable. And then when we get into Japan, we had an opportunity to see what they had prepared for us. The division I was in was responsible for destroying a lot of the munitions, particularly naval munitions that had been stored and ready for the invasion. And a friend and I were sent up in the mountains in Japan. We took over a warehouse that was just full of rifles and all kinds of small arms. So the Japanese were really prepared for us. And I think people should know that, that if we had an invasion, if we had to go in through an invasion, there would have been a terrible loss of life from both sides. The Japanese people would have suffered immensely, and certainly the invasion forces would have suffered. So if anybody wants to argue the point for whether the bomb should have been dropped, I'm happy to take them on. Okay, how I got here--after I got out of the service, I went to Ohio Wesleyan University, got a degree in chemistry, and happened to walk by a bulletin board when I was a senior. I read a notice for fellowships in radiological physics. And I really didn't know a thing about radiological physics. I had applied for graduate school at Ohio State University and was accepted there, but I thought, well, I'll just check this out. So I had to take an exam and pass it and was notified that I had gotten a scholarship or a fellowship at the University of Rochester Medical School. What the training really was health physics. It was the first fellowship classes being funded by the Atomic Energy Commission, at that time, for training in health physics. So I took that for the first year and had some summer training at Brookhaven National Laboratory. And one of the professors, Newell Stannard, by name, asked me if I wanted to stay on as a graduate student and, sure, why not? I still had some GI Bill time left, and so I decided to use it, and so I was there working on a PhD until 1954 and then looking for a job. Well, one of my lab mates had worked here, Hoyt Whipple, he worked for Parker and had left there and gone back to Rochester. Turns out, his father was Dean of the Medical School at Rochester, so I thought he had an interest in going back there. But anyway, I checked around. I had an offer at Oak Ridge, another at Yale, and one out here. And actually it wasn't always the positive, the comments I got about here, but they offered more money, and my wife was pregnant at the time, so that made a big difference. And so that's how I got out here. Bauman: Oh, okay. Now I want to ask a little bit more about that program at Rochester. So this was a fairly new program? Bair: Yes, I was in the second class. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Okay. And so were you one of the first doctoral students there?</div> <div> <div> Bair: Well, the radiation biology was totally new. In fact, when I started that program, they did not have it authorized, and I was in the physiology department at medical school for a couple years until they got it authorized. Now I did receive the first PhD in Radiation Biology there and, I think, in the world. Dr. Stannard always claimed that that was the first one in the world, so I won't argue with him. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] You said you arrived in Hanford in 1954. Bair: Yeah, in September '54. Bauman: And what were your first impressions of the area? Bair: Well, it was kind of interesting. At first, having come from Rochester, New York and lived in Ohio before that, I was amazed to see the big river here with no trees along the shore. I think my first impression, it seemed impossible. So anyway, it was obviously a company town, and that didn't bother me. It wasn't unattractive. Nothing was really negative about it, I can remember anyway. I think that the most negative comment I took back to Barbara was the fact that—the lack of trees. Her father actually was supportive of me coming here because he had been a comptroller at the General Motors plant in Rochester, New York, so he was a company man. So when he found out that General Electric was operating this plant, why, nothing wrong with that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] He approved. Bair: Right, he approved. Bauman: So you mentioned Richland was a company town sort of place. What was the housing situation at the time? Were you able to find housing right away? Bair: Well, no, all the housing was controlled. There were two types of housing. One, certainly, owned by the government, built by government. Then there was another, I think maybe, two developments, one called Richland Village. Do you know where Richland Village is located? Bauman: Mm-hm. Bair: That had just been built. It was built, I think, by a private company, but I think underwritten by the government in some way. And so we took one of those. In fact, we didn't have a chance at one of the government houses. But after a year there, we did have anopportunity to move into a B house in South Richland, and we lived there until the houses were sold. I can't remember what year that was, but--and we actually bought the B house and converted it to a single unit because we had, by that time, two boys and another one on the way, I think, so we needed more room. Bauman: And do you remember how much you paid for that B house? Bair: I don't, but not very much--$4,000 or $5,000 maybe. I don't know. I think we sold it for $15,000, so we made a little money on it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So when you came to Hanford then, what sort of work were you doing? Where were you, and what part of the area were you in? Bair: Well, I was I trained as a radiation biologist, and so I was hired by Frank Hungate to work with him in cellular level studies. Actually we were trying to understand the mechanism for radiation causing health effects. And so it was really a pretty basic research. It was genetics, mutagenesis kind of studies I was doing. The theory that we were looking into was whether a radioisotope and carbon genetic material, when it decayed, it would become another element. And in that process, whether it would actually cause a mutation. We had no really positive, but we had some very successive results, but it didn't, certainly, make a big impact on the field. And then, after I was there two years--Barb and I'd agreed that we would stay at least two years; that we felt that was had to--you make a commitment. It's got to have some--we weren’t about to jump ship right away just because of the dust storms. I did have an offer from the University of Illinois back in Champaign, and it would be setting up a new program there on the campus. Fortunately or unfortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, Barb and I went back for an interview in August. Have you ever been to Illinois in August? </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: I lived in Illinois for a couple of years, so, yes. Bair: Oh, okay. Humid, hay fever season--Barb and I were a mess. [LAUGHTER] And so we came back, and I did receive an offer from them. But about that time, the person who was leading the inhalation toxicology program out here at the site died, and so they were replacing him. And since I'd been at the University of Rochester, where much of the pioneering work had been done on inhalation of uranium, things like that, they assumed that I knew something about it. And they offered me the job to stay on and manage that program. Well, with the hay fever situation—it was a good job. I hated to turn it down, in a way, but we did, and so we stayed. Bauman: Do you remember the name of the person who ran the inhalation toxicology before? Bair: Ralph Wager. Bauman: Wager. Bair: Wager--W-A-G-E-R. He was a physician. I had I met him, but he didn't live much longer after I got here. I think he was a very capable person. Bauman: So how large was the inhalation toxicology program? How many people were involved in that? Bair: When I took it over, there was three and a secretary. [LAUGHTER] And I was the only PhD. The other two were--one had a master's degree. I'm not sure the other one did. And then I think that's all. So we started out scratch. These were good guys. Really, I couldn't have been better off. I couldn't have asked for better people to start out a program, even though they didn't have the degrees. Lou Temple had studied histology. He was very good. He would qualify for a lot of pathology work. And Don Willard was a, I think, he was probably a primary chemist, but he was a--do you know the term Rube Goldberg? Bauman: Mm-hmm. Bair: Okay, he was a Rube Goldberg. You'd tell him what you wanted, he’d make it happen. He could do all kinds of things with nothing, in the shop or the lab or whatever. And we were inventing new territory. There was no technology, no publications showing us how to develop the technology, to build the technology, to expose animals to highly radioactive materials, which we had to do. And so he was largely responsible for putting all that stuff together. And engineers would look at him and shake their head, the trained engineers, but they couldn't do it. He could. [LAUGHTER] But we had a lot of help from other people on site. There were aerosol physicists working in other programs; they were able to help us. One good thing about the lab at that time was that they really believed in statistics, and they had statisticians assigned to us. And I'd come from the University of Rochester, where they really did preach the value of statistics in doing your research. You talk to a statistician before you start your experiment. You have them involved in designing your experiment, and that way they are way ahead of the game when it comes to interpreting the results. So anyway, that's how we got started. We had a certain advantage, in sense. We had, at that time, a program out there where we had military veterinarians coming in for training programs. So that gave us an opportunity to have an extra set of very qualified hands, and so we had and several veterinarians working with us on the program. And I think that--I can't remember the first one I hired. I think I hired a physiologist, a PhD physiologist. Then I needed a veterinarian because, I think, the military program was closing down. And I had a friend at Ohio State University. He had been a fraternity brother at Ohio Wesleyan, so I called him. He was at the vet school at Ohio State, and I asked him if he had any graduates who might be candidates for a job. Well, he had several, and so I went back to Columbus to interview these guys. And one, Jim Park was, I thought, the best one. He didn't have the best grades, but he was just came across as being the person I wanted. But there was a little bit of a problem, I thought—possible problem. He came from my hometown. And you know, you hire somebody from your hometown, it doesn't work out. The town, probably 8,000 or 10,000 people, word gets around. So anyway, I decided to take a chance. He decided to also take a chance, and it was probably one of the best decisions as a manager I ever made because he worked out very well. In fact, he worked on until he retired. In fact, he just died this last January. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: It was Jim Park? Bair: Jim Park, yeah. Bauman: So what was the home town? Where was it? Bair: Bellefontaine, Ohio. Do you know that area? Bauman: I do not know that area. I was born in Ohio, but I don't know where that is. Bair: Okay, well, it's between Lima and Dayton, right in a straight line. Bauman: So you said that this group started out very small. How much did it grow during the time that you were-- Bair: Well, during the time I managed that, which was probably ‘til about '68, I know we must have had--I can't remember--maybe ten, 15 people probably. I'd had foreign scientists visiting. I had one from Turkey, another from Japan during that period. That's probably about right. Bauman: And so, the inhalation toxicology program, I guess, could you explain what sorts of things you were doing? Experiments and studies, whatever-- Bair: Sure, well, it turns out that the most common—the most frequent way people were being exposed on the plant—the workers being exposed on a plant to things like plutonium, particularly, was by inhalation--airborne plutonium in the processing plant and everywhere else they worked with it. And so not much was known about plutonium at the time, essentially nothing, because it's a new element. And there'd been injection studied at Berkeley, California at University California, Berkeley and other places, where they took amounts and injected it into experimental animals intravenously and sometimes just through the skin. These were not really duplicating the kind of exposure that people were having, because the people were breathing it. And so we had to do some research to find out where it goes and what the effects might be. At that time, we--I say we, meaning the scientific community--suspected that things like plutonium would cause lung cancer, but there was no experimental evidence, and no human subjects, there were no human exposures that had ever resulted in lung cancer. The main evidence we had for radiation causing lung cancer occurred in miners, particularly starting in Germany and Czechoslovakia. The hard rock miners were developing lung cancer beginning way back in turn of the century. And it wasn't until the 1920s they finally identified it was radon, the radioactive radon gas. It was causing lung cancer in these miners. So then, of course, with the development of the atomic energy program in the United States, there was a lot of uranium mining going on, and they were already beginning to see evidence of increasing lung cancer in some of the miners down in Utah and places like that. So there was reason to be suspicious, but there was no experimental evidence that it would happen. And so our studies there actually with beagle dogs showed that actually you could inhale enough plutonium to cause lung cancer. And I say enough, because we certainly showed that very small amounts would not do it. You had to reach some--I can't--you want to use the word threshold, but we don't know whether that's right, but some level amount before we would see those kinds of effects occurring. Our first studies were with mice. We actually put radioactive material and injected it into their trachea, and we had no effects there in those cases. As I said, we had the Air Force and military veterinarians on site. One of them was Jack Healey, who was then returned back to Sandia base. And then Air Force was very interested in plutonium for obvious reasons, because they carried weapons around that contained plutonium. And they contracted us to do some studies on the early effects of people inhaling plutonium oxide, the weapons grade plutonium. And they wanted us to use beagle dogs. Beagle dogs were an ideal experimental animal. They had been used at Cornell University in studies there. There was a big study at Utah, in which they were actually injecting plutonium and uranium and thorium into beagle dogs. Down at Davis, California, a veterinary school there, they had a large program using beagle dogs for external radiation. So beagle dogs were an ideal animal for research. So we did sign the contract with the Air Force to start the study with beagle dogs. And I think about two or three years in the study, we found the first lung cancer. And the lung cancer was rather unique because it was rather—it occurred down deep in the lungs where the plutonium was located. Plutonium is an alpha emitter. The radiation from plutonium only travels a few cell diameters. So wherever that material is located, the tissue around that's going to be pretty heavy irradiated. So if you have too much there, you're going to kill the cells. But if you don't have enough there, you're lessening the chance of having the kind of reaction that would result in the cancer occurring down the road. We'd had other findings. We found that one of the early effects of inhaling something like plutonium was a decrease in the circulating lymphocytes. And I don't think we ever have worked out the mechanism for that happening, but amongst all these animals that had a sufficient amount of plutonium would show an early decrease in the circulating lymphocytes. Now I'll just stop here a second. I mentioned Frank Hungate who hired me. He was working there, working at the time, and we had discussions about that and thought, well, maybe this could be used in some helpful way. Thought that if you could use this in some way to knock down the lymphocytes and knock down the immune system in organ transplant people or even treat leukemia patients, it would be worth looking into. So Frank Hungate did develop an implantable blood irradiator that had radioisotopes in it and that you could actually implant into a person and run the blood vessel through it, so you're irradiating on a continuous basis the circulating blood. He had that and implanted it in dogs and in goats. He had had considerable interest from the commissions, but not enough money was put up to take it much further than that. So it never got into clinical trials. Anyway, that's a spin-off from that kind of research. Another we found, too, is that the plutonium was very insoluble, and so it was just like an insoluble metal. And it would accumulate when it was inhaled into the lungs. The clearance mechanism would actually move that plutonium into the lymph nodes. There are a number of lymph nodes throughout the lungs of man, but most of the effective ones are right around the bifurcation of the bronchi. And we found that the concentration of plutonium in these lymph nodes was, after a short time, was much higherthan the concentration in any of the tissue of the lungs. So this was a mechanism to protect the individual because we never saw any primary cancers originating in lymphatic tissue in any animal. So we had thousands of animals in our experiment. So that was a very interesting finding. And while I'm on the subject of plutonium, we also did some studies with plutonium-238, which is another isotope of plutonium. The 239 is used in the weapons, and the 238 is a shorter half-life plutonium. The plutonium-239 has a half-life of about 24,000 years. So, in a sense, it's not very radioactive. But plutonium-238 has a half-life, I think, of something like 80 years. It's very reactive--radioactive. In fact, it's so radioactive that it's hot, thermally hot. And if you take a particle of it—and we did see this frequently—and have it in a plastic, like Plexiglas, it would actually melt down into that, it was so hot. We did experiments with some of those particles, and they essentially melted tissue, but I don't think we ever saw any serious effects of the material. But the interesting thing about plutonium-238 was when you had the same form, oxide form, insoluble form, and animals inhaled it, it did not remain in the lungs or lymph nodes very long. More of it started to become soluble and move to the liver and other tissues like the skeleton. Well, at that time, this is in the early '60s, NASA and the Air Force were using plutonium-238 as a heat source in thermoelectric generators. They use them in space vehicles. They use solar panels for some of them, but this was a source that could be totally contained in a space vehicle. In fact, a number of those out in space are powered with plutonium-238. But they'd had—when they first started that program, they had a failure or two. I think one of them is called a SNAP device. I don't remember what that stands for—Space Nuclear something Program. But it burned up on reentry out in the Pacific, and the fuel at that time was pretty soluble, and it just spread all over the Earth. Everybody inhaled it--very small amounts. It's like fallout from weapons testing. And when we began to show them what the problem was with plutonium-238 oxides, they decided they’d better change their fuel source. And from there, they developed another one. It was actually a ceramic that was almost indestructible. It would withstand high temperature fires. So we did contribute to--our results did contribute to the space program and to the use of plutonium-238 as a heat source in these thermoelectric generators. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: I was going to ask you about—so, how were these inhalation experiments conducted in terms of the dogs? How were they--how did they inhale the—I guess what were the specifics of that? Bair: Okay. All right, well, like I said already, we had to develop all this technology. And the important issue—well, several important issues--one, we had to do it without contaminating ourselves, and the second is we wanted to be able to control the amount they inhaled or at least to be able to measure it. First thing, it meant that in order to protect ourselves, we had to do it within a glovebox containment of some kind. So we had to work through gloves and all that kind of stuff. So then first, we started working with rodents, and we started mostly with mice and then rats. We got a plastic cylinder. We had good shops here at Hanford. They would build a plastic cylinder, probably that much in diameter, any height we wanted. And then we'd drill holes all around. The aerosol would be administered at the top, and we had a continuous airflow through it, and the exhaust would go through several different kinds of filters to make sure that none of it got out. Then we found that in order to contain the rats, for example, there was nothing better than the old fashioned Coke bottle. You know what I talking about--the Coke? Okay, well, we cut the bottoms off the Coke bottles, and that expanded area just was ideal for the lungs area of the rats. So we could put the rat in the bottle, put a rubber stopper in the back, and they were totally comfortable and could breathe very easily. And then we just plugged these bottles into these holes in the chamber. And then, of course, we collected aerosol samples during all this time, so we could actually get some idea of how much they were breathing. And then we also collected samples that we could characterize in terms of particle size. And that's one of the findings we did come up with, and we found that the particle size, the size of these particles, had a lot to do where the material deposited in the lungs and how long they stayed there and so forth. Bauman: So how did that work with the dogs then? </div> </div> <div>Bair: And with the dogs. We taught the dogs to sit with a mask on their face, and the mask then was connected to the chamber. And the dogs were in their own little glovebox, actually, attached to the main glove box, which had the aerosol chamber around it. Dogs are really lovely to train. You can train them to do anything, if you want to, and we had so many veterinarians around. And actually the lifespan--the average lifespan of our dogs, even the ones on experiment, far exceeded the average lifespan of dogs in the public sector because they had so much care, and they had--well, some of them had weekly physical exams and 24/7 care.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: And so how long were you involved, then, with the inhalation toxicology, running that program? Bair: Well, I think about it was about 1968 when Dr. Kornberg moved to another position. Dr. Kornberg had been hired by Herb Parker in 1947 to come here and take over the management of the biology program. This included the health and environmental sciences. And in about 1968, he took another position in the laboratory, and by that time, Battelle had come in and replaced General Electric. And I was fortunate enough to replace Dr. Kornberg as manager of the biology department, and that's when my hands-on research kind of went down the tube. Bauman: [LAUGHTER]So how large of a department was that then in 1968? Bair: I don't know. I would say--I think I have it on my cheatsheet, okay? Bauman: That’s fine. Bair: Actually, I didn't think about that. Yes, 214 people, or 200 people. And started out with a size of a group, I said here was two, and it grew to about 21 when they left the program. Bauman: And so you said you weren't really doing research yourself then. Bair: No, I was shuffling papers then. But I still wrote papers and certainly was working with the scientists who were doing the hands-on stuff, obviously. Bauman: Yeah, so what sorts of things was the department doing in general? Bair: When Battelle came in, things changed quite a bit. Before that, almost all of our research was directed toward Hanford production problems. I should mention a few, if it's okay. I think some of the most important work had to do with developing biokinetic models for the radionuclides. We had to develop--the protection was based on dose to people and individual organs. So, they had to develop models to describe where the radioactive materials would go when they went into the body. So a lot of work was done to develop these models. Another big program was in studying the ingestion of radioactive materials like plutonium. It was necessarily to know what percentage, what fraction of the material that you ate and went through GI tract would be absorbed. It turns out that you can eat a lot of plutonium without having very much of it go into your body. I think I tried to duplicate with some material, once, a big chunk before you'd ever have any health effects resulting from it. It's just so insoluble. Then another major program was developing methods to treat people who might be contaminated. We called it decorporation, trying to remove the—particularly plutonium—traces in the body's tissues. It's there. It's staying. You have to go to extreme means sometimes to get it to move out and excrete it. And that's what you want to do because you're reducing the dose in the process. So that really started pretty early on in the early '50s and then by John Blue and several others. Morris Sullivan came on about same time I did, and he kind of latched onto ingestion route of intake, studying the absorption across the gut wall, and also effects of ingestion of radioactive materials. That contributed a lot to the models used today. You'll see his papers referenced in many of the publications. Then the other was, as I mentioned, decorporation. The program was started on a small scale before I arrived, and another scientist, Vic Smith, arrived shortly afterwards. He was from Montana. He was a chemist and still here, incidentally. He went on and started working on that program and was very successful, and it was very important. It really paid off when we had that accident out at the 200 Areas, when a man by McCluskey was exposed to a big dose of americium. Vic Smith synthesized the DTPA, the drug to treat this man. So it really couldn't have been more timely. We had a guy here who could synthesize the drug and tailor fit it to the treatment. And actually today, it is the recognized treatment for any intake, accidental intake of many heavy elements like plutonium. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: And so you were—you directed the biology department beginning in 1968? Bair: Yeah, I think it was about that time. Bauman: How long did you do that, then? Bair: I'm using my cheatsheet here. I can't remember. Yeah, it's about 1973. Okay, 1973, then it changed. The department was actually--I can't remember if it was still the AEC then or not. I think it might have been. They wanted somebody whose full attention would be paid to their programs here. So--[COUGH] excuse me. Maybe I should take a break and you can edit this out. They wanted somebody, I said, to have a full sense, a full-time responsibility of paying attention to their programs. And so Ed Alpen, who was the director at that time, convinced me that I should be the one to do that. And initially, I actually went back and worked half time at Germantown headquarters. That was not a good time for us. We had two boys in high school and another one in junior high school. It was a tough time for Barbara especially, because I would fly back to Washington, work for two weeks, come back here for two weeks, back and forth, and back and forth for—gosh—over a half a year. And then, finally, I took the position. By that time, they had a replacement for me as manager of the bio department, because I was actually doing, I think, three jobs at the time. And so then I was full-time director of the Life Science program, which included the environmental programs, the atmospheric sciences--everything that they funded. And I did that for several years—for a long time actually. Well, the title changed and some of the other things changed with it, but I did essentially that same job until about 1986, when they reorganized and the Life Sciences Center was formed, and I assumed responsibility for the Life Sciences. And that included toxicology, health physics, epidemiology, molecular biology, did I say toxicology?—some radiological physics. It was a broad-base health, medical program. It included considerable medical research too. Bauman: That must have been a fairly large group. Bair: I think I had something like 500 people. Bauman: And you did that until when? Bair: I did that until—well, I was trying to retire, but, why, they wouldn't let me retire until they got a replacement. And so I think I did that until '94, I think it was. I should send say something about Bill Wiley. Do you know the name? Bauman: Sure, yeah. Bair: Bill Wiley was a biologist. He was a molecular biologist. And I was manager of the biology department at the time, and his supervisor, his boss of that section, was moved to Seattle, up to the Battelle Center at Seattle. Yeah, it was the doings of people back in Columbus, the Indians, somebody over there. So he went over there. So I needed a replacement, so I twisted Bill Wiley's arm to take that job. He didn't want do it. [LAUGHTER] But I finally convinced him, that was the thing to do. And so I really lost a good scientist, but obviously the laboratory at Hanford got a darn good manager, and that worked out well. Eventually, I think he resigned himself to it, and was happy it went that way. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So I was going to ask you a few questions. At some point, Hanford shifted from focus on production to focus on cleanup. Bair: Mm-hmm. Bauman: I was wondering how that shift impacted the sorts of things you did, or the people who were working with you at all? Bair: No, I pretty much--I don't remember much of that happening until after I left. I know there was some concern out at the Tank Farm because there was some toxic gases coming off, and they were interested in our helping to try to identify them. But the cleanup hadn't really gotten--at least we were not involved in the-- Bauman: If I go back a little farther, President Kennedy visited Hanford in 1963. Bair: Who? Bauman: President Kennedy. Bair: Okay. Bauman: I wondered if you had memories of his visit at all—were you here, did you go to that? Bair: No, I don't really--no, I don't remember much about that time. I can't remember. I remember his coming, but I don't remember--I didn't see him. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Okay. What do you think were the most challenging aspects of the work you did at Hanford, and then what were sort of the most rewarding parts of it? Bair: Well, probably the most challenging probably was not the science. It was what you had to put with as a manager. [LAUGHTER] I think I was happier as a scientist than I was as a manager. I probably ticked off a lot of the people who were providing support. Because I was probably not—they probably didn't view me as the most cooperative in many ways. But it was frequently frustrating. I know I had considerable issues with the team at salary time, because people in the salary administration didn't always agree with my assessment of performances of some of my staff. So I had to fight a lot of battles there. I had some successes. One of them I have to tell you about is that during the '60s, we were out at 100-F Area; the biology labs were out there. And during the '60s we were really trying to get new laboratories built in the 300 Areas. And we had everything going great for us, a design and everything, and all we needed done was the final authorization, the money. And it was around Christmas time. I don't remember exactly which year it was now--probably, I can't remember, '68, '69 maybe, '70. The local Kiwanis Club met at our house for a Christmas party. And Sam Volpentest was there. Do you know the name Sam Volpentest? And he came up and said, Bill, how's that new laboratory coming? And I said, it wasn't. I said that Nixon had sequestered the funds. You know the name sequester, that word? I don't think I'd heard it. I'd never heard it before that, or I don't think I've heard it since then until recently. But the money was sequestered by Nixon. Well, Sam said, well, you know, I'm going to be in Washington next week. I'll see what I can do. And I think it was within two weeks, that money was turned loose, and we got our building. He made a believer out of me, and probably a lot of other people though the years. So, I felt that was a success. Bauman: Any other events that stand out to you as look back at your years at the Hanford or incidents or strange occurrences or unique things that kind of happened? </div> </div> <div> <div> Bair: Well, I know we had a few threats of a union strike. And since we were way out there, we spent a few nights sleeping on the autopsy table because we had to have somebody there in case something happened. But it wasn't until much later though, that we had any union members, the animal caretakers, I think, not until after we moved in here did they join the union. So most of the people working out there, scientists, scientific staff, were not union. But the craftsmen were, so we dealt with them. We had no problems working with those people. We just had to obey the rules. I remember one situation. We were—well, we talked about beagle dogs. I'll tell you how we got those. At first we tried buying them. And when you buy anything in the government, you have to go out and bid, and the lowest bid wins. Well, I remember one shipment of dogs came in—beagle dogs came in. Those dogs are about that high. They had the longest legs of any beagles I'd ever seen or could even imagine. I don't know what they were called. So we shipped those back. But after a few episodes like that, we decided we had to raise our own dogs, so we developed our own colony. We had three strains of beagles. We got some from Davis, California. Actually, Washington State had a beagle colony over there, I forgot to mention that. And we got another source from I can't remember where else. We had three strains, so we can minimize the inbreeding, and we did have a geneticist down in Portland who would guide us in our breeding program so we wouldn't have any problems that way. Let’s see. What else was I going to mention? I can't remember now what else. Woman one: Bill, can I ask you something? Bair: Yeah. Woman one: So Gary Peterson always tells me to ask you about the alligators out there? Bair: Oh, jeez. Woman one: [LAUGHTER] Bair: Gary was a neighbor. Of course, I knew him when I worked out there too. He was one of the guys I used to bug. Well, there was an aquatic physiologist out there who had gotten some alligators. He was going to do some radiation studies with them. But before he could get started, he left for another job. But while he was there, he did have alligators in the pond out behind the lab out there. It was not too far from the Columbia River. And I think one of them got loose, went into the Columbia River, and some fisherman found it, turned it into a sports' shop downtown, and it was displayed and all that kind of fuss, all that kind of stuff. And then when he left, being a radiation biologist, I knew that nothing was known the sensitivity of alligators to radiation. So I said, well, rather than having them destroyed, I'll take them. So I volunteered to take them, used the same facilities. Except I thought that we ought to beef it up a little bit. So there was a chain-link fence around it, and we had plywood put around also and wired to it. And then, for some reason, those alligators were able to squeeze those boards apart and get loose. Well, there were five of them that had got loose. Three of them were irradiated, and two of them were controls. Well, I talked to, I think, probably Gary Peterson. He was in public relations at the time. And we agreed that it would smart this time, rather than let somebody find them, we will report it to the media. So we did. But at the time, it was not very good because we were still working for General Electric at that time. So that dates it then for us. That night a Vice President from General Electric arrived in town. He got up the next morning and looked at the newspaper. There it was--big headlines--alligators released to the Columbia River by General Electric scientists and all that kind of stuff. And he raised hell. He jumped on W. Johnson, who was the plant manager. He jumped on Herb Parker, who worked for him, and he jumped on Harry Kornberg, who was my boss. So guess who—so I was ordered to put out a search team on the Columbia River until we found those alligators, and we did. I had a crew go out every day. And every week, every Friday, I had to turn in a report. They went to W. Johnson what we did to find the alligators. Well, at that time, the reactors were operating. So water along the shore was still pretty warm from the cooling water, and so the alligators kind of hung along the shore. I think we caught all but two. I think there was one control left and one irradiated. I figured the irradiated one died. But sure enough, in process, I think another alligator crawled up by a fisherman. I can't remember now. But I think maybe by the end of the year, we had gone out. We never found anymore alligators, and so there was still those two missing. And I finally got a note back from Parker saying I could relax the hunt for the alligators. But, you know, in subsequent years, I had calls from people. I had a call from some Wildlife guy over on the other side of the river. That was back--gosh, that must have been in the '80s. He wanted to know what I knew about alligators in the Columbia River. I said “nothing,” and hung up. [LAUGHTER] And then there was another one, I think, more recent than that. I can't remember now. But that's the story of the alligators. Well, actually, it was interesting, also, the alligators were really not very sensitive to radiation. But we did find that the sensitivity varied with the temperature at which the alligators were kept. If you put them in warmer water, the effects were magnified, were increased. So their metabolism had a lot to do with the effects occurring in these cold blooded animals, which no surprise there. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So what was the time period when this happened? Bair: Well, it was the early '60s, so it was before General Electric. So it must have been like '63 probably. Bauman: I wanted to ask you another question, too, about these inhalation studies. You mentioned earlier that beagles were sort of ideal for this. What made them ideal? Was it their trainability? Bair: Their size. Their trainability. Because an awful lot of data had been collected by other laboratories on their physiology and biochemistry, diseases, everything. So we didn't have to do all that background work. We had it already--the pathology, everything. All we had to do was to go to the literature. So they were made to order. Another animal would have been more ideal in terms of respiratory tract. Believe it or not, a horse's respiratory tract is more like man's than most of the other species. We looked into getting miniature horses, but, well, that didn't go very far. They were going to be too expensive. I should say--you didn't mention anything about the swine, about the pigs we had out there. One of the early studies out there, of course, was studies on radioiodine. I'm going to mention sheep first. When Parker came here, he knew that there was going to be a problem with radioiodine being released because he'd seen that happen on Oak Ridge. And so he had the experimental animal farm, which was led by Leo Bustad. We haven't mentioned Leo, but I should, because he was a graduate veterinarian from Washington State University, and he was hired here in '48, I think, by Parker. He worked here until the mid '60s, and then he went down to Davis, California for several years, quite a few years. Then he became dean of the Vet School over at WSU. So roundabout--and, in fact, there's a building with his name on it, the vet school. Anyway, his first job was to do studies on the uptake and effects of radioiodine in sheep. And the sheep, because they were raising animals in the area, and there was obvious concern about what would happen if they got into the sheep. There were also cattle. They did a study with cattle. Those were very important studies because there were claims later on from people and farmers, sheep farmers in Utah about sheep being exposed to fallout. While the results from the lab here from Leo’s studies really proved that it was not radiation. They were eating a toxic weed that caused the death of those sheep. The farmers, I don't think they believe us yet. But that's really what happened. We also did studies with pigs, because, as Leo said, you could take the GI tract of a pig and put it next to a GI tract from a man, and you'd never be able to distinguish the two. They looked exactly the same, so they did ingestion studies with pigs. Now, they have developed a miniature pig that would weigh, when it was full size, about 180 pounds. A standard man—a standard man for most calculations, is considered to be 180-pound man. And then he also developed a miniature white pig for skin studies. So he could—white skin is obviously better for skin studies than a normal pig color skin. Anyway, I need to mention those two studies because they were very important. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So those were in inhalations? Bair: They were not inhalation. We did try an inhalation experiment with sheep, with iodine-131 at one time, and only once. A sheep has no control over its bodily functions. It was a mess. Bauman: So you were involved with that program until about 1968. How long did the inhalation studies continue? Bair: They continued--in fact, they developed into a very profitable toxicology program, inhalation toxicology program at Battelle, and I think it's just now recently closed down. So it got off to a good start and had a long run. Bauman: And how about the animal studies in general, how long did those continue? Was there ever any sort of opposition to that from the public at all? Bair: No, actually, we fared very well. Our veterinarians were very astute about those kinds of situations. Our public relations people, Gary Peterson and his people, they would talk to us before they responded to anything, so we worked together to avoid problems. And we thought we would have, when we moved our dogs into the 300 Area because you could hear them bark on certain days. But we never had a [INAUDIBLE]. None of these outfits got to us, and they were over in Seattle. They caused problems over there--PETA and those people. Bauman: Obviously security was a very important part of Hanford site. I'm assuming you had special security clearance. I wonder if security impacted your work at all? Bair: No, it really didn't. I think the first impact was when people came here for an interview. We were interviewed at the hotel. And we never saw where we were working until we got here. Have you ever been out to 100-F Area? Bauman: A long time ago. Bair: A long time ago. Okay, well, it looks like a prison. No windows. So first the first thought when you go in there, your first day of work, you know, what am I getting into? But inside it was a really good lab. But that was a first impression. The security, of course, we had the security clearance, and we had to have every paper we published cleared by the security people. Parker, I think, he read everything that we published, and then the security people went over it. The only thing that they objected to was anything that referenced the amount of radioactive material that went into the river, concentrations of radionuclidesin the Columbia River, any releases or anything like that. Because they felt that that was a possible way of somebody finding out how much plutonium was being produced. I don't know how, but I'm sure there were people monitoring the temperature and things like that. Bauman: You mentioned earlier--you mentioned Herbert Parker. Are you involved with the Parker Foundation, and or have you been? Bair: Well, I founded it. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Right, so do you want to talk about that some?</div> <div> <div> Bair: Yeah, I knew Herb from the day I arrived here, and he was a tough manager—really tough. He didn't give you any slack. [LAUGHTER] Things had to be just right, and people who did stupid things had a tough time with him. But he insisted on quality, integrity. He really, really had high standards for everything we get did out there. And he supported our research fully. As I said before, I think he read everything we wrote, so he knew what was going on. He also was a strong supporter of a symposium series that we put together, back in about—it started about 1960. We had an annual symposia in biology and included the environmental sciences, too. He was a strong supporter of that. I worked with him. He was my boss at one time. I worked with him very much in the Institutional Review Board, setting up a human subjects kind of a review. So when he died, I felt that he ought to be recognized in some way, and I knew, of course, that he has interest in education, and so I talked to a couple people at PNNL, the controller of the time, I think it was--I can't remember who it was. [INAUDIBLE], I think—and decided to go in and set it up as a not-for-profit. It wasn't associated with Battelle or anybody else, a not-for-profit foundation. We went to the state and got all that approved and so forth. Then the whole idea was to have an annual lecture sponsored by the Parker Foundation to coincide with the symposia each year. And so we did that for a number of years. Then, when I retired, I felt that there was a good chance that Battelle was not going to be around forever because their contract was limited. And Battelle was helping us fund the lectures, so their money, their support was helpful--very important, actually. So I talked to Doug Olesen, who was head of Battelle at the time and he agreed that there ought to be some way of being sure it was maintained in perpetuum some way. So I talked Jim Cochran, who was--he wasn't called Chancellor, I don't think, was he? Bauman: Dean, it was Dean. Bair: Dean, yeah, and I was amazed at his enthusiasm. [LAUGHTER] I thought I was going to have to sell something, but I didn't. And Ron Waters, at the time, was on board. He had replaced me. So we talked to Jim, and he explained, and the rules haven't changed to this day, as far as I know. He told us that we had to get $25,000 before we could actually have it identified as a separate entity within the foundation, and so that was our initial goal. So that's taken off, and a number of other people have joined the board, and several of them have died, of course, through the years. And I'm hopeful that it will continue, because not only for the fact that I want to see Parker continue to be recognized for what he did here, but I think it has an opportunity to provide some real benefits to the WSU and the community. So it's kind of, in a sense, now a dual thing. We have the fund which is associated with the WSU foundation, but then we also have the foundation as a state—whatever the terminology is. So we can operate independently if we need to. If we want to do something that WSU may not want to be associated with, I don't what it would be, but anyway. Bauman: Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Bair: Mm-hmm. Probably that’s true. Bauman: And I teach a course on the Cold War. Bair: Oh, great. Bauman: For some of them it's something they did not live through at all. So I wonder if you could talk about, especially in thinking about future generations or even the current young generation, who wouldn't really have lived through the Cold War, what do you think is important for them to know about working at Hanford, especially during this Cold War period? </div> </div> <div>Bair: Well, there was certainly visual evidence of the Cold War, because when we moved here, they had anti-aircraft guns sitting out here, and they eventually had missile sites and all that. But as far as the program's concerned, I think the only thing that reminded us of it was the security and the classification. But during that period, I attended meetings in Vienna and other places and interacted with Russian colleagues and exchanged publications, information, without any problems at all. I do remember that one time that I came back from a meeting where I had met with Russian colleagues, and I don't know whether it was the CIA or some agency wanted me to come down and talk to them about my impressions of the Russian side of it all. And I didn't think it was appropriate, because I thought that was essentially making spies out of scientists. We squared off. They understood my position, and I understood theirs, so it was no—I think that for the most part, scientists are pretty much engaged in the science itself. Because we were doing things that no one has ever done and first time, really. Every experiment was publishable, which is unbelievable. But through the years, I really had some wonderful opportunities, many of them associated with the Cold War. Infact, I was involved with the Chernobyl accident. I guess I was part of the Cold War. Well, I can tell you about that, if you want me to.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: Yeah, if you would. Bair: Okay. Well, when the Chernobyl accident occurred, we had, at that time, the atmospheric sciences people had a couple of airplanes here. And I heard some indication that that cloud from that accident was coming this direction. So we put those planes up to collect samples all the way down the coast. And since that was part of my program at the time, I had a lot of interest in the possibility of doing that. And I had full support of the people back in headquarters. People downtown here weren't all that enthusiastic about it, but I had support from the people who were paying the bill. And so we got some the first information about the fallout from Chernobyl coming down to the United States here. And then I was involved in meetings in Vienna and also at Chernobyl and looking at the health aspects and predictions of health aspects. I chaired a committee for the DOE at that time of scientists looking at the health environmental aspects of it and put out a report or so. Bauman: So you essentially worked at Hanford for almost 40 years, roughly. Bair: Well, I started in '54, and '64. Bauman: Ended upin like '94, something like that? Bair: That’s right, '54 to '94. Bauman: You must have seen a lot of changes take place. I'm wondering, what were some of the more significant changes you saw take place both at Hanford and maybe even in the community of Richland itself? Bair: Well, I think the biggest change in Hanford, and then I'd say, several ways--maybe I can just start. One change is that when General Electric was here, we had one management, one boss. It was the plant boss, okay? And I’ve looked at since then, can anybody count the number of bosses we have here in this place now? I don't know how they keep track of everything that's going on. It's so spread out and so—So fortunately, I haven't had to deal with any of that, but I've just seen it happen. It seems like it’s impossible. And I mentioned that to Doc Hastings once, and he said, well, it's a lot more complicated now. Well, you know, I think about what could be more complicated than building reactors and producing plutonium and separating it all out for the first time? So anyway. Then the other thing, of course, from the Battelle standpoint, is that the program has diversified. So we've had people doing all kinds of things, and it started during my time. We had big chunk of the artificial heart program at one time, using pigs. In fact, people don't know this, I'm sure, that some of the basic research done for ultrasound--you go in for a ultrasound these days--some of the basic work was really down here by Mel Sycoff, who was a biologist who did work on neonatal and fetal systems, and John Dykeman and Percy Hildebrand, they were the engineers setting up the system. That was the basic work for it. I don't know what happened. I assume Battelle must have gotten some patents and sold them to somebody. Then also some of the veterinarians got involved with the material sciences. People who developed the tooth implants and also implants for joints. They developed a complex metal void system. It was like a metal sponge with lots of holes in it. I can't remember whether it was zirconium or what kind of metal it was now. But so the bone tissue would grow into it, and you wouldn't have to use glue and cements like they use now. Same thing with tooth implants, same kind of system. So the bone would actually grow in. And they had implanted these in pigs. Now can you imagine any human having a stronger bite than a pig?[LAUGHTER] So those really were very well supported tooth implants. So there was a number of outgrowths of the program that paid off. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about or anything you haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you would like to talk about? Bair: While I was managing these programs, I did get involved in a number of activities off-site. [INAUDIBLE]. Well, I'll mention a couple of them. I got involved in the Marshall Islands situation. You know, the Marshall Islands where they conducted the weapons tests? There was one particular island where they had done these one-point detonations where they did--it was called safety shots where they were just detonating a weapon and spewing plutonium all over the place. It was not a nuclear detonation. It was just a chemical detonation, in a sense. So the Army was involved in trying to clean that up, and so I got involved in chairing a committee that was going to advise them on how they should do that and so forth. So that was a kind of an interesting experience. I got to ride helicopters all around the islands out there and sleep in the admiral's quarters. [LAUGHTER] Actually, they built a dome over one of the craters, after they hauled the contaminated dirt and dumped it in one of the craters. Then they filled it in with concrete. Anyway, I went out there one day in a helicopter and landed on top of it--that dome. So I had some cool experiences that way. And the Marshallese were concerned about their health and the health of their children as a result of being exposed to all that. So the Department of Energy wanted to write some booklets to try and explain to them what the health risks were. And so I, with two other people, Jackie Lee from Los Alamos, and a scientist from DOE, we co-authored three books, one on Bikini, one on Eniwetok, and one on the Northern Marshall Islands, trying to describe in the Marshallese language what the risk was for those people living there and their descendants and so forth, and try to explain what happened. We worked with a missionary from the Marshall Islands. She was a—I can't remember what church. She had translated the Bible into one of the languages out there, so she worked with us. And also we had an editor from here, Ray Ballman, who lives across the river here. He actually has a PhD in French. That didn't make him able to speak Marshallese, but he understood how you translate. And so the book was actually written in Marshallese and translated into English. So we the books actually had the Marshallese language version and in paragraphs below that, the English. I don't know whether it to helped the Marshallese understand the situation or not, but it was, I think, a worthwhile effort and certainly very interesting to work with those people. I have a lot of respect for those Marshallese people who were essentially pushed off their land. Bauman: What time period was this, 1950s? Bair: This was--I did this work in the 1980s. Bauman: Oh, in the 1980s. </div> </div> <div>Bair: Yeah. The lawyers, by that time, had gotten out there and stirred things up, so the Marshallese were really very, very concerned about everything.</div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 218 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area 100-F Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1980 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Stannard, Newell Whipple, Hoyt Bair, Barbara Hungate, Frank Parker, Herb Wager, Ralph Park, Jim Blue John Sullivan, Morris Smith, Vic Alphen, Ed Wiley, Bill Volpentest, Sam Peterson, Gary Kornberg, Harry Olsen, Doug Cochran, Jim Waters, Ron Sycoff, Mel Dykeman, John Hildebrand, Percy Lee, Jackie Ballman, Ray Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Bair Description An account of the resource An interview with William Bair conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/14/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100-F Area 200 Area 300 Area Hanford Site (Wash.) Parker, Herb 1910-1984 Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005