95 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d1399b27916dd5ec2646fdea94cfdf0.jpg 4d18af5d2a912b3c9382f4de8cd59003 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F84b51170a0a057f293a80eb6a4ea3769.mp4 86d389ba8c63a7491cf4de7dd24ce2b9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed C.J. Mitchell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with CJ Mitchell Description An account of the resource An interview with CJ Mitchell conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F765994dd921c91eb053787d613d46dc8.jpg 16a97e6dcda82388432112b119202e26 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe7571cdcd4734f62fb4055782c2a8ebd.mp4 bafcb78950404349c3e160f0d590ce45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bill Kennedy Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Kennedy Description An account of the resource An interview with Bill Kennedy conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F97490d9e79c8febc2de1b17e5e26f8c8.jpg 07eda7b2596d03a375bf7346cd2e54f2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0081049bc8617dc74d91077007529331.mp4 289c09266dfd9d74741cd3dcbd18f45b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bill Decker Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Decker Description An account of the resource An interview with Bill Decker conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe14e4177541d86d726108ff0ae769395.jpg 09ca8e040f8702ef5a35ef159d767c68 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c057bb8e9f110352e26b93ab36a49ec.mp4 6baf716dfe1500e5c0f22fb821d2eb4a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Young Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Northwest Public Television | Young_John </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> John Young: R. Young. J-O-H-N R Y-O-U-N-G. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Robert Bauman: All right, thank you. And today's date is October 22nd of 2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: I'll agree on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Okay. Sounds good. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: So let's start by having you tell me when you came to Hanford? What brought you here? How you got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: When did you come to Hanford—to work and Hanford, and what brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: You want the whole story of how I got to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: It'll take me 15 minutes. I wrote a letter up to here after I saw an article in the newspaper saying they were looking for employees. And after that, they accepted me from the standpoint that they would find out whether or not I was qualified. And for the next two months, the FBI and other agencies went through my history and got information from my doctor and so forth. And in early June—well actually, yeah—they finally decided that they would offer me a job. Or they offered me a job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: And so where had you been living before you came here? What year was this, also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Where were you living before you came here, and what year was this that you moved here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Oh no, I didn't have any employee but here before. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: But where did you live before you came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Where was I working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Where did you live before? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Oh, I lived in Albany, Oregon. And I worked there as a carpenter because my dad made houses. So anyway, when I found out that I was supposed to arrive on July the 8th, I started from home on July the 7th. I wanted to be sure that I got here. Now, something I should tell you now is that during that spring, the Columbia River was at its highest violation you might say, or amount of water, in history. And it had wiped out parts of Portland. And there were only two bridges on the Columbia River, in the United States. One was the Bridge of the Gods down by Portland, and the other one was a bridge up by Canada.[LAUGHTER] So I didn't have any choice of how to get here. So when I left home, I drove up to Portland on back country roads because the main roads up to Portland were all wiped out by the water. Got to Portland. It was 17 miles east to the Bridge of the Gods. And that was actually a very funny ride because the road I was on the south side of the river and railroad track were the only two things on that side of the river. And I could drive along there and look out over the top of the rails on the railroad, and I could see that the flood two feet below the top of the railroad. Anyway, I got to the bridge safely. Went over the bridge, and I knew that the road on the other side going east from the Bridge of the Gods grows gradually up the ridge on the north of the river and eventually goes over the top of it and go down into the Yakima Valley. And I got about halfway up that ridge when the engine on my car blew out. [LAUGHTER] And fortunately it was right at a little town there that had some place where they could fix my car. So I spent the rest of that day there while they were working on the car. And they got the car ready for me by 8:00 the next morning, which was the 8th. So I drove on up over the top of the ridge down into the Yakima Valley, because I knew that if I could get into Yakima, there's a main road coming from Yakima down here. I got down to the bottom of the hill there, started towards Yakima. And I got two miles, and they found out that there's three feet of water over the river—over the road, pardon. So I turned around, went back. And there was an industrial area there. And I found a guard there and said is there any way I can get down to here. He said oh yeah, go back up to the road to Yakima and then go east. And when you get down, about 30 miles, there's a bridge over the river. So I took it and went in to Richland, getting there about noon on the 8th, which was fine for my getting there. So I ate my lunch, went into the Federal Building--which was only a one story building at that time—and I found out where the manager of personnel--well, new in personnel were. Walked down to his office, walked in his office. And he had about five desks in there. He was on one of them right by the door. And he was busy working on it. So I stood there, I'll say, for over a minute when he finally looked up and saw me. So I reached out my hand to him and said who I was. He stood up. He opened his mouth wide. And he stood there for over a minute, utterly amazed. When he finally got himself together, he said, how in the world did you get into Richland? What had happened was the management of Hanford had concluded that nobody would get into Richland for the next month. And that's why he was so astounded that I got into town. There was a [INAUDIBLE] if you want to call him that and overlooked the fact that I was a westerner. And I can go anywhere in this country that I want to, because I was raised on a cattle ranch down in Central Oregon. And I knew where to go through the, I'll say, backwoods. And that's how I got there. So anyway, their question then became, what are they going to do with me? Because they'd shut down the orientation class for new employees, so I couldn't go to work out in Areas. What were they going to do with me for a month? Now the first thing they did is they got me a room out in the barracks in North Richland. And then they told me to report to the production scheduling office in the Federal Building the next day, which is a top secret operation. And the purpose of that office was to determine which tubes in the reactors should be discharged the next time they had an outage at the reactors. And consider that there's 6,000 tubes out there. They had a new calculation system because they had a calculator which was designed to do that calculation to tell them what the amount of uranium was, or the amount of plutonium was in those process tubes. And such a method of calculating did not exist anywhere else. It was a special calculator designed by Marchand. Well anyway, I spent the next month in that office. I had a copy of the manual for Hanford—it was a top secret copy. And I could read that and find out everything that went on in Hanford in their manual. And then at the end of that month, when they finally opened up their orientation operation, I went through that process. And then I went out to the 100 Areas to go to work. I was assigned for six months at B Reactor as an assistant, well, operator for the reactor. It was a training period. It's a General Electric process. Any time the General Electric Company—at that time anyway—hired a new employee that had an education, they would put them out into one of their operations or many of them to give that person training on what to do in the job that they're going to get. And when they got through with the six month part that I was out there, they then assigned me to day work out in the 100 Areas. And I spent the next 17 years out in the 100 Areas as a senior engineer, one of the few that they had out there. Now I had to earn that title of senior engineer. But I was working on increasing the productivity of the reactors, reducing the cost of operating reactors, reducing the amount of radiation well, affecting workers out there—things of that type, for 17 years. At the end of the 17 years, they started shutting the reactors down. So I resigned. Went to the 300 Area and joined several organizations down there. [LAUGHTER] You know, there's so many of them floating around there, it's funny. And I spent 33 years mainly working in the 300 Area. But what I did was such things as licensing nuclear reactors, seven of them on the east coast of the United States. Congress had decided that all of the nuclear power plants in the country should be licensed. And the AEC, when they got that, they said well, you should work in the East because we don't want any bias. So those seven reactors are spread all away from Florida clear up to Minnesota. And after that, that was just a typical action for, oh, about one year. I was still an employee here. And if you want to know what I've done for the rest of that 30 years I spent at Hanford, I've got it listed here if you want it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: This is something that I've had. I filled it out as appropriate just so I could answer questions of the type that you've made. And if you want to make a copy of this-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Oh, sure. Yeah, we can do that afterwards, yeah. That’d be fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: But you see there's—oh, what is it--about 15 boxes all in there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: I want to go back to when you first arrived in the area in 1948. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What did I do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: You first arrived in the area-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: I just arrived in '40--well, you mean in the Northwest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: No, I mean in the Richland, Hanford area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: In Richford, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: What sort of housing did you have when you first arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: There were in Hanford at that time, large buildings--some of them still exist--which had multiple rooms for people. And some of those buildings could hold as many as 25 people. And I was single. It was very handy from midtown. It's not out in the sandy places they talk about in this article. [LAUGHTER] But that sand, he talks in there so much—a couple of times anyway—actually was not Richland. Except for little locations where one building might be built. Most of Richland was grassy. And if you're in Richland, you're not getting any sand blowing around. And if you read their article there, they talked about the sand when there were on construction locations. Well that's normal throughout the whole state of Washington. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: So what your first impressions of Richland when you first got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: When I first came in? I got a story for you that you're going to wonder if you want to publish it. I, like I said, drove into Richland on the 8th of June and got my lunch. Ate my lunch, went into the office there. And I guess I told you that this fellow said how in the world did you get into Richland? So from that time on, I was working. And I was working out in 100 Areas. The first six months, I was working at B and D Reactors. And my position was assistant shift superintendent. See, they had shut B Reactor down for, must have been four years because they wanted to keep it available in case they had to get some more plutonium for the military in a hurry. And that was the only time I was on shift. After that, my work was what you might call typical engineering. You can call it nuclear engineering if you want to, but it's general types of engineering—reducing operating costs, increasing production, reducing the radiation doses to employees, those types of things for 17 years. Ended up as a senior engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Of the different sorts of jobs, different parts of the Hanford site that you worked on, was there something that you found most challenging, most difficult, and/or something that you found sort of most rewarding about what you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: I don't understand your question. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Well, you had at least a few different jobs. You worked in the 100 Areas, right? And then you worked the 300 Area. Where there certain things that you did that you found sort of more challenging, or more difficult than others? And were there certain aspects or certain jobs that you had that you really found especially rewarding, that you really enjoyed a lot? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: The main difference was that when I was working in 300 Area, the reactors were reactors of the types that were used everywhere else in the United States. The Hanford reactors were very specific reactors because their only purpose was to produce plutonium. Whereas the other reactors in the United States were primarily built to produce electricity. It's a different design. And it also had more, shall we say, more opposition by the public. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. And that's a subject that you might want to address, because the people who are supposed to be the experts on radiation generally refused to use the information which says that low level radiation is beneficial. That makes a lot of difference. That low level radiation is so beneficial. In my case, I got 15,000 radiation dose. All of it was low level radiation. There might have been some high level in there, but I can only tell you what the badge has, you know? [LAUGHTER] And that's something that you might want to mention in your articles if you publish them. There are numerous people here, particularly in Hanford, that refuse to recognize that fact that low level radiation is beneficial. And like I say, there are scores of documents that say that low level radiation is beneficial. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: You talked about your badge. I wonder if could talk about safety at Hanford? Did you have to wear any special clothing equipment of any kind to do your work? What sorts of ways was safety sort of part of what you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well, I was cleared for every type of limited information. I got that when I told you I went into that one office on the first day. That was a top secret operation. And top secret gives you access to anything, assuming you had a need for it. I spent—let's see, how long were we in Oak Ridge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Woman one: One year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: One year, yeah. I spent one year in Oak Ridge on a committee which had somebody for every one of the AEC outliers, you might say. And the purpose was to determine where to protect their materials could be manufactured if somebody needed them. In other words, if you want high level radiation dose or something. I was dealing with people from every one of the major AEC outsides. But I would have ranged all in the various types of work that involve radiation. For instance, I was a manager at preparing environmental impact document for fusion reactors. And that document was presented in a meeting to the international fusion organizations in Germany. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: About what time period was that? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Oh, my. Let's see. That must be about 1990. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: During your years working at Hanford, were the any events, incidents, events, special occasions, things that sort of stand out in your mind from your time working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: You mean the reactors involved? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Oh, could be, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Yeah, we head one out in the 100 Areas. For essentially all of the reactors, when they milk the reactors, they—of course the reactors are made out of graphite. They ran tests on graphite and so forth, and they learned that they could operate the reactors with a fairly low temperature of the graphite. You get too high temperature and you know you might hurt the material. And as we started raising the power levels of the reactors out there, the graphite started expanding. And the result was that in some of the older reactors like B Reactor, the graphite expanded enough that it pushed the shields off the outside of the reactor. Well, push them apart you might say. And the result was that the radiation inside of the reactor was leaking out through the crack at the top of the far side wall on the reactor. And there was a line of radiation going out that crack out through the wall in the far side of the reactor and then up into the air. And the result was that there was about a 20 mR radiation dose on the ground outside of the reactor. And that's one thing I worked on. They went back into the files of the DuPont people. And by checking through those files, they discovered that if we raised the temperature of the graphite, the expansion would stop. And if you go too low, the graphite would reduce in volume. And so we had to go through a special study to try to figure out what this would do to the reactor. And the result was—you see, the normal tube in the reactor was straight through the reactor. But when the graphite started expanding, the tube went up in arc and came back down because the highest temperature graphite was in the center of the reactor. So we figured out what was the proper temperature of the graphite—of actually of the gas in the reactor. And we ended up with the top tubes in the reactor going in, going down, going up, going down, and coming back up and going out the back. That's the type of things you ran into doing something like those reactors. And by doing that, it sort of drove the people replacing process tube on the reactor having to figure out how to get the tubes in the [INAUDIBLE]--[LAUGHTER]--through the reactor. If we had not done that, eventually the reactor would have fallen apart. In other words, if we hadn't figured out what was causing the problem—because this reactor would just keep expanding, and finally that outside shield would fall over. Or we'd have to somehow rebuild the shield up there to keep it in place. That's just a typical job that you'd have. You might spend six months on that. I had another one. I was working with a fellow who is an expert on water purification. And see, we were cooling the reactors with Columbia River water. It had to go through the water plant to clarify the water to get the sand and what have you out of it. And when they first designed the reactors, DuPont had discovered that if you did not have the right concentration of materials in the water going through the reactor, the tubes were bending up into two inside the reactor. And in order to prevent that happening, they were use the sodium dichromate in the water on the reactors. One part per million or something like that, but it's still, we're spending about, well, over $1 million a year buying that material. And I was working there with a fellow who was an expert on operating water treatment plants. And we got together and looked at this sodium dichromate that was used as we said--and we were buying that by the railroad car load. And I think the total cost was a $1.4 million a year for that one material as I remember it. And we looked at the price of it. And we looked at the price of buying the two components for making that material. And we had enough equipment in the water plants that we could make that material, the sodium dichromate. So we bought the chromate and the sodium, and we cut the costs in half from about a $1.4 million down to $700,000 a year. So we saved $700,000 a year. That's the type of things you work on. All types of things you get involved in. For instance, when they built the reactors back in World War II, there was a shortage of steel. So many of the pipes, particularly the ones underground, were not made out of metal. And when you heat and cool the other types of pipes, they start leaking because they crack open. So we had to figure out how to solve that problem or reduce the amount of sodium dichromate getting into the Columbia River. We worked it out, reduced it considerable. Those things get a little complicated. I don't want to go through all the detail. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: So it's involved a lot of problem solving? Your [INAUDIBLE] anyways right, problems with the reactor or whatever you would work on solving those issues. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: If there were problems with the reactors, then you would work on solving some of those issues, work on solving the problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Yeah. In other words, you have really two plants there. One was a water plant to provide the water to the reactor. And then the reactor was the other plant. Now what you do with the water, what you get out of that, is just how you get it back into the Columbia River with a minimum of radiation. And you know, that raises an important thing that I haven't mentioned it to people here in the Tri-Cities. I kept records on what the radiation was in the Columbia River. And when we were running the reactors out there, we were running, you might say, tons of radioaction into the river. Yet the amount of radioactivity in the Columbia River here at Richland was essentially zero. It had disappeared you might say, or bee diluted if you want to put it the other way during the travel of the water from out there by the reactors into here. And when I see these articles in the newspaper about they're worrying about the fact that there's radiation out there in the 200 Area and it will leak out into the ground seven miles or something like that from the river, I'd be willing to bet that there wouldn't be much radiation getting down to Richland. And the other thing is that it would be low level radiation, which is beneficial if it does get down here. I don't know if you want to put anything like that in what you publish because the nuclear engineers don't want it to be published. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: What was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to Work what did you think of Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well to me, that was a typical job, In other words, I had to travel 35 miles to get to my work. But people do that all over the country. It was an interesting job because we were working on increasing our knowledge of the subject. It's different than running one of these dams out here where you're generating electricity you know. All you're doing there is pushing a button once in a while. But by doing the right things out there, we saved millions of dollars. And we also reduced, you might say, the effects of radiation on anybody by making sure they didn't get any high radiation doses. But the most important thing about it is that we were, you might say, at war with the rest of the world. As long as we had to make that plutonium and reap you might say, keep Russia at a distance. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about in terms of your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well no, other than the fact that once I went to work in the 300 Areas, I worked all over the United States. Because I happened to be, you might say, an expert on nuclear reactors. A good example is that the government decided they wanted to have every nuclear reactor, I'll say described, to be sure what it is and how much radiation so forth is involved. In other words, if they did that, they licensed them. And that was quite an interesting job, because I worked on seven reactors back on the East Coast. And of course, I worked for one year in Oak Ridge. And that involved all of the AEC facilities. Bauman I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experience with us. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young: Well, always glad to be helpful. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Young; I would like to see the facts published in your story that low level radiation is beneficial. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110"> Bauman: I'm making these, we're making these available for anyone to look at, the [INAUDIBLE] stuff. Thanks again, appreciate it. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:39:31 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 193 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area B Reactor D Reactor 300 Area 200 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1940-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1940-1990 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Young Description An account of the resource An interview with John Young conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/22/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-15: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area B Reactor D Reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd83f3c4d7f86b6e52d6cbf8bf71d5112.jpg e7da9ff9782316d22c5ae28c305ce461 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e0756e3663c4eed74b608601031114e.mp4 7aec6edb4ebd55efc217150d9f8e2d36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Yesberger Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Jerry Yesberger: I go by Jerry Yesberger, Jerry, J-E-R-R-Y, and then Yesberger, Y-E-S-B-E-R-G-E-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Robert Bauman: All right. Thank you. My name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is December 9th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So Jerry, let's start maybe by having you tell us when you first arrived in the area, what brought you to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Okay. Well, I was born and raised in Colorado. Went to University of Denver, and I graduated with a BS degree in 1950. And let's see here. Then I worked for a short time in Colorado, mainly because I wanted to come back from the state of Washington—to the state of Washington. I was in the service from '43 to the end of '45. And I spent some time in the Seattle area and everything, and I really liked it. And so when I got back to Colorado, I applied for jobs with State of Washington and everybody. Then there was an opening at Hanford. And at that time, everything here was General Electric company, as you probably already know. There was no contractors other than GE, and they ran the community. And everything—there wasn't anything other than GE here. And my first job at Hanford, which lasted about five years, was in the public health department, which we had most of our activity concerned for the community here, rather than the site, although there were some activities during that that we were asked to perform, such as—oh, I can remember that I'd been out to the site for some things to do with health matters and so on that I was asked to do the work on, and I did. And after about four, four-and-a-half years, the city became a city away from General Electric company, and I wanted to stay with Hanford. So I applied—well, I don't remember how exactly I got there, but the radiation protection department in Hanford Laboratories at that time. And again, this was a time when everything was one site. There was no contractors other than General Electric—offered me a job in radiation protection. And my radiation protection time lasted an awful long time, because I retired in early--oh, gosh. Say, it was 19—but anyway, I had 36 years' service. [LAUGHTER] And my first job was out here in the 300 Area, and GE at that time gave new people an awful lot of training. And I was trained as a health physicist. And I spent, oh, gosh, the first few months training. And I spent, oh, gosh--they had a project here called 558 Project, and what it did was go through the old reactors, all of the old reactors and replaced the tubing in the reactors. And each one of these assignments lasted, oh, three to four months. So we started out in B Reactor and finished there. And my job was I had a crew of radiation monitors working for me, and we worked shift work, because there was a big, big construction job. And it took about three to four months in each of the old reactors out there to go through these, replace the tubing, and so on. So I followed those from B to C Reactor to 100-DR to 100-H to 100-F doing the same thing, essentially, because we went through there. And then following that time, I went back into 200 West Area, where I worked on projects and so on. And rather than work--I didn't have radiation monitors work for me then, but I had always assigned projects myself to work on. And I did that in the--I have worked in every area on the project out here, with the exception of FFTF. I did not work, and I did not have an office there. But every other area I had an office and these things. So it was kind of really a broad orientation program and so on. I want to back up just a little bit. In the service, I was in the Coast Guard. And this was from '43 to '46. And I was a pharmacist's mate, and again, the training was real, real good. And the last year or so, I was on a ship, USS Aquarius, and it was an attack cargo ship. And our job was to take troops. We had Marines that we had aboard, and we had training to have them land on something. And boy, they really trained us. To make a long story short, we got an assignment, and we knew we were going to move our ship. But we didn't know where or what for. But it turned out it was that they were preparing to invade Japan with troops. And I never saw so many ships in my life, where we all had troops, and we were ready to train. And we practiced getting on these landing barges, and, of course, I was a medic, so I had to go in with the troops. But I never had any real active duty due in that time, prior to that time, because I was always out doing these other things. But we were ready to go in, and so we had actually moved into where we would make our move, and guess what. The Nagasaki bomb was dropped. Well, of significance there is the plutonium on that bomb was made at Hanford. So that was really an interesting aspect of it, and I've always been so, so, so, so interested in that aspect of the thing. Well, shortly after that, the war was over, and everybody was discharged. And then that's when I came back and went from there, like I said, prior to this. But I thought that was an interesting aspect of this whole thing. So I worked for the General Electric Company for about five years in radiation protection doing all of these things I've been telling you all about. And again, I had very, very, very good assignments. Probably my most treasured assignment was I was the health physicist for biology, out in the 100-F Area. And I spent a year out there, and that was because of all the animals--the pigs and the dogs and everything, and my job was to write radiation procedures for them to do where the monitor and I had radiation monitors reporting to me out there during that time. Well, following that—I don't know how this developed, but the Atomic Energy Commission, which it was at that time, got my name, and they asked me if I would be interested in federal employment. So in the 1st of January, 1960, I switched jobs from the General Electric Company to the Atomic Energy Commission. And my job, there it turned out that I was a headquarters person, because we were doing what they call compliance inspection of people that are used in the state of Washington, Alaska, and Washington. Anybody that had a license for radioactive material, they had to be inspected. I was one of these inspectors. And it was a very, very interesting job. It involved a tremendous amount of travel, however. And we were always—when I went up to Alaska several times to inspect people, and there were only for us in this whole division, by the way. [LAUGHTER] So there was only two of us that made any inspections. And so I liked it. I like it, because I like people. But I worked at that, and it turned out that we were called Region 8 Division of Compliance, and it consolidated with Region 5 in California. So I didn't want to go to California. So I was offered a job with Atomic Energy Commission here in the Richland operations office, and I stayed there until I retired for my service. But I was with—most of this time, by the way, where I was transferred, I was in the health and safety division at RL. And at that time, there was no—we had one manager for this whole site at Hanford. We didn't have, like they do now, one on for the 300 Area, and all this kind of stuff. So we had our own health and safety division, so our entire--everything we did was associated with Hanford. And so that's where I finished my career in 19--with the federal government. I did work, however, two years after retirement for a company called MacTech, and they were a contractor to DoE to work on specific problems and so on. And I worked with them for a couple of years. And I also worked on the employee compensation program for about a year, and then finally retired. That's kind of it in a nutshell. I hope I didn't confuse you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: No, no. I do want to go back and ask a couple of questions. So when you first came to Hanford in 1950, what was your first impression of the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well it was a shock. Number one, I had never been in eastern Washington in my life. I got a job offer, and I thought it might look like Seattle, but it didn't! [LAUGHTER] So that's my impression. But I wouldn't trade this area for the whole state of Washington now. I love it. We raised our family here, and I'm a big booster of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: When you first arrived, where did you live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, my first housing was a dorm for about three months, and then we moved into a B house, which was a duplex. And we lived right across from Lewis and Clark School here in Richland, and we lived in there for a year or two. Then they sold the houses here, and a fellow that I worked with down here, he didn't want to stay here, so he was living in a ranch house, which I bought. And I'm still there. [LAUGHTER] And we live on Torbett here in Richland, and we've been here ever since. We had one child that was born in Denver, and then our other three, and we finally had a girl, which I was so happy for. I love girls. [LAUGHTER] And she lives here, by the way. And she's the only one that lives here, and she's a special education teacher for the handicapped at Richland School. That's what she got her degree in. And she loves the work, but I couldn't do it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember how much you paid for that house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: We paid about $6,500. We sure did. And prior to that, they furnished the oil, the painters, everything that was here was done for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember what your rent was on the B house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah, it was about $30 a month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: $30 a month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you have any other memories of the community in the 1950s, what it was like at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, yeah, somewhat. One of the things that mystified me was that we lived in Richland, but blacks could not live in Kennewick. They would not rent to--you couldn't buy a house in Kennewick if you were black. And that always, I thought, was unreasonable, because we had several blacks that worked with us in the AEC here that were wonderful. And I still don't have any--I love them all. I like everybody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So when you were AEC, they weren't doing the hiring of African Americans there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: No, they hired them. Oh, yeah, AEC, there was no question on that with the government, but boy, you couldn't live here. And we had several blacks in our division, and it worked out great. No, the community--do you live--I mean, do you folks live here? Well, when we got here, there was nothing north of Van Giesen. Nothing. And so boy, did we see that grow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Yeah, I imagine you’ve seen a lot of change and growth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: The week we got here—well, let's see. It was about--I lived here for about, well, maybe three months in the dorm, until we got housing for my wife in that B house. And it was great, the idea of that housing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Yeah. What was the dorm like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: I didn't have any problem. Of course, I missed my family. We had a boy at that time living in Colorado, and he now lives in Snohomish. And again, we had the big army camp in North Richland, where we had just thousands of trailers and everything. And that was quite a sight to see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So you said you first job was working for the health department, or public health? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, it was the health and safety. Yes, it wasn't the health department at that time, but it included their functions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: What sorts of things—that first job, what sorts of things did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, we used to do all kinds of inspections, of course. But restaurants, schools, the water department in Richland, just broad health things that required health overviews. So that was the job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: You were working for GE, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: How many people were working in the health at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, we probably had 20 or 25. We had a doctor that was in charge of us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And then you said you went into radiation protection, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes, from that function. And the main reason is because GE—went to a community, rather than being GE-managed. We had to elect a city councilman. It was a city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember what your thoughts were about that, about Richland becoming an independent city at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: No, I think we all accepted it. It was good. Obviously, when you work like that, you're interested in benefits. And I think that swayed a lot of it for me to stay with GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Right. So when you moved to radiation protection then, you said you had to have a lot of training at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And for the jobs you were doing, did you have to wear special protective clothing at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Can you describe that? Sort of what sorts of things you had to wear. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, basically, they're just white coveralls as the one here, and they're still using the same white coveralls out there, just like we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: How about security at Hanford? What was that like when you first came? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I think it was very tight. It was very tight. They really stressed security and safety. Safety was—in my estimation, my experience, General Electric was the most, the best contractor I ever worked for in my life, because they had emphasis on safety and health and really stressed it, you know. Much better than possibly they did in later years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So was there sort of ongoing training for safety? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, yes. Very, very, very, very--GE was very safety-conscious, and they were so good to their employees. You never read anything about anything happening in the newspaper or anything like that. They got it to their employees right away, and it was a pleasure. And the rest was a pleasure too, but not like--I miss GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And you talked about, was it the 558 project? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: With changing the tubing. So what was your job? I know you went to each different reactor as they did that. What sort of things were you doing for that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: My particular job was I was what they called the radiation supervisor. And so I had about eight radiation monitors with me all the time during each outage, and we went from one to the other. And their job was everything had to be monitored just like they do now, in and out of the areas, and move it, and take it to disposal areas, and everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So was it monitoring the employees’ exposure rates? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes, monitoring the employees and the jobs that they're doing, because we had to develop the radiation work procedures, which they were working at. And this would vary during the whole outage. And they were very tight at first, and there was any grinding or anything or heat or anything, you had to have special requirements for that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So of the different jobs you had and the different parts of the site that you worked at, was there a job or something you did that you found the most challenging, and/or something that was the most rewarding of the things you did at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, probably the most rewarding job I ever had here was Hanford, was I was here with Richland operations office, and during the americium accident in 1955, I think it was, and my job, at that time, was--as a matter of fact, I got involved in that particular incident at about 5:00 in the morning after it happened at 4:00. And I went out with the doctor, a fellow by the name of Dr. Breitenstein, and he and I went out and met Mr. McCluskey out in the area, before they got me into the decontamination center. And my job was really I represented RL in the whole aspect of the care of that patient during the months and months that he was here. Because he was confined, couldn't leave, and everything. And my job was to--as a matter of fact, I came right out to see him every single morning that he was in there, and we became very, very, very, very good friends. And it turned out I was a pallbearer when he died. [LAUGHTER] And it was a rewarding experience, because to begin with, he was such a great guy, and he accepted all of this and was never down, but he couldn't hardly see. He was grossly contaminated. And my job was to keep people at RL down here, the Richland operations office informed of what the situation was with him, and to notify headquarters, keep them informed, because it was a real significant accident, the worst we've ever had at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So you mentioned that he had suffered probably with his vision. What other sort of injuries or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, what happened, he had put his hand in this glovebox out in 234-5 Building, and it exploded, and came out and hit him in the face. So he was just so grossly contaminated, and he had to have a radiation monitor with him every hour that he was down there. And I became so familiar with that accident and everything, and I felt it was the most rewarding for me to have something like that to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember about how long he had to stay hospitalized? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, yes. He was down there for probably a year. A year. We got hot food. It was provided to him by Kadlec Hospital down here, and he had a nurse with him down there at all times. And his wife was living down there with him also. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: And where was he then? Was he at the hospital, or was he- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, there was facility at the back of Kadlec Hospital, which is no longer there. And this facility was called Emergency Decontamination Center, and he was there. They had beds and everything in there, showers and everything. And it was a specific facility for that case, to tell you the truth. And it's since been torn down, which I think was a mistake, myself, because if you ever had another one, you couldn't have been a better facility for it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: You mentioned you were in close with him, and were a pallbearer at his funeral. How long did he live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: He lived about, I think, about three years. And then he died of a heart attack. It wasn't radiation. But he certainly had radiation in him that would cause cancer if he had lived too much longer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Are there any other incidents or sort of unusual events that happened when you were working at Hanford that kind of stand out in your mind at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I happened to be a trained accident investigator, and I had to go to school and learn all this kind of stuff. And I probably investigated more accidents than anybody ever has at Hanford. But we’ve had fatalities, and we had big spreads of contamination. We had several things that cause it, plus, we also responded to off-site accidents. And I had what we call a radiological assistant team that reported to me, and I went out on those where there were trucks that would spill radioactive material, where there was--this is kind of a little odd. I probably shouldn't even mention it, but you'll appreciate it. But we had a truck of uranium billets overturn on Lolo Pass, and these billets weigh 15, 20 pounds, but there's hundreds of them in this truck. Those things went all over the highway up here in Montana. I responded to that one. And one of the things that I was never trained on was guns. But, well, we were up there probably about a week recovering all of those billets that spilled over, because they all had to be accounted for. It was very strict on that. But we were out from town out on this pass someplace, and somebody had to sit in the truck with a gun at night to make sure nothing came, if anybody came from the highway or anything like that. Well, they gave me a big shotgun. I don't even remember what kind of gun. I couldn't have shot that damn thing if I'd had to! [LAUGHTER] And I still can't! [LAUGHTER] But that was kind of humorous. But we couldn't have the guy that could shoot be there all the time. So we all spent about three or four hours a night out there by ourselves. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: How long were you out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: We were out there a couple of weeks. But I responded to lots of--the worst probably the most one that I responded to as the team captain was we had a spread of contamination at the University of Washington at the reactor. And I actually, again, there was some plutonium that came from Hanford that they were analyzing up there, and there was a spill. And the reactor at the University of Washington was greatly contaminated with plutonium. And I had a team. I had three or four people that went up with me to respond to that, and we were there two or three weeks there helping them get that all in, and we did. We got it all cleaned up, but there was some minor depositions. But boy, if that thing would happen now, the way it's anti-nuclear, it would be horrible. But this happened to be in spring break when all of the kids were away. So we lucked out on that on that thing, but we all had to wear protective clothing that two or three weeks while we were doing that. But I was the team leader on that particular accident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you remember what the time period was when that happened? What year that might've been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, gosh, I can't remember that. But I responded to probably 30 or 40 spills and so on that were all over the country in Oregon and Washington. And then we had spills in Oregon that we had to go down to, because at that time, the state didn't have people for that function to overlook at that. So we did their work for them. And I did that for, like I say, about four or five years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So did you usually respond if it was like material that had come from Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: No, it could be anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Could’ve been anything, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Could be anything. I loved the job, and I loved the people, because I like people. But it was so much travel. I was always gone from Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So that was probably one of the more challenging aspects for you is just all the travel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah, it was. We had young children, and it seemed like I couldn't go out and come back, there wasn't a million things broke. [LAUGHTER] So that's the way it went. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about President Kennedy's visit in 1963, if you went to that that day. Do you have any memories about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I got two memories. I got a call after that article was in the paper from the Seattle--no, she was from, I think, a public relations firm down here, one of them, that asked me about it. So I told them everything I knew. So I told them about this one friend of ours that happened to get up and shake Kennedy's hand. Well, of course, they were interested more in that than were what I had to say. [LAUGHTER] So the big article in the paper, he gives his report. He didn't even mention my name. [LAUGHTER] No, I didn't care. But my son-in-law was there when they called too, and they quoted him in the article and everything. But poor me. No, I wasn't looking. I wasn't really looking for my name to be any place. [LAUGHTER] Yes, I was out there. It was, of course, it was in the fall when he was here, not long before he was assassinated. But it was such a hot day, and I think all of Richland went out to it. There was just car after car going out to that area, and some of them boiling over from the heat and all this kind of stuff. But it was a very, very excellent program. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So as you look back at your years working at Hanford—how many was it? Thirty-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Gee! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: About 36. It was 36. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Well, as you look back at those 36 years, overall, how would you assess Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, I thought it was excellent and very safety-conscious. It couldn't have—in my aspect—been a safer place to live in my life than I did here at Hanford. And like I say, I worked in all the reactors. I worked in the separation plants and everything, and it was interesting. I think it was rewarding, the fact that you could clean up stuff. So it makes me real--we had such excellent facilities out here at that time. But all those buildings are gone and torn down, and they could've been used for so many things now. And I think that was a really big mistake. But they didn't ask me. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Well, is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to share or talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Well, you know, I don't know. I think you might want to look at my submittal in the Parker Foundation on that thing and see what I said at that time and the answer to their questions and so on. It went well. And I just feel so fortunate to have been here all this time and be so lucky and still be here. I'm the luckiest guy in the world, and I'm very happy that I was at Hanford. I've got several awards while I was here for my work. One of them I do want to show you, because I'm really probably real pleased, but I was elected a fellow in the National Health Physics Society. I received awards, several from—I was president of our local chapter of the Health Physics Society. I received several awards from those people. I was really well thought of while I was here at Hanford. And I was real pleased. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: So were you involved in the Parker Foundation as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Yes, I've been on it since--I still am. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Do you want to talk about that, like how you got involved with that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: I was asked to join it by Dr. Bair, who is still there. And I know you know about Ron Kathren. Everybody knows Ron Kathren. Well, I play cribbage with Ron Kathren every Wednesday at my house now. We play cribbage. I just think he's such a great person, and such a great health physicist, that I was so lucky to know him. And they asked me to join, and I've been real active, until this business with my wife, which I took a leave of absence. And I haven't been able to go there, because I can't leave my wife. But I still pay my dues and go there, and it's been a good organization. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming today in this cold weather and coming and letting us talk to you. And then maybe we could get a shot of your award that you brought in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796"> Yesberger: Oh, okay. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:39:12 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 195 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 200 West Area B Reactor C Reactor 100-DR 100-H Area 100-F Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1970 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Bair, Bill Kathren, Ron Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jerry Yesberger Description An account of the resource An interview with Jerry Yesberger conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/9/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-18: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100-DR 100-F Area 100-H Area 200 West Area 300 Area B Reactor C Reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcf048689636f43deed4c23ae7d4d4d14.jpg dc383eed74d4438fdac9c7ad9c068eca https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3841380e69217cef6aa70840d8479a53.mp4 e48c0d6128bcde0bbba8a20ce7f31cef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tyler, Bill Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Tyler_William Robert Bauman: Now you can give it right back to her? William Tyler: Yeah, I plan on it. Man One: Exactly. All right, get this off your face there. Bauman: Does your daughter live here in Richland? Tyler: She lives right across the street from me. Bauman: Oh, does she? Oh, there you go. Well, you can really give it to her then. [LAUGHTER] She can't avoid you. Tyler: Well in fact, we work together at HAMMER. Man one: I’m rolling. Bauman: All right. Well I think we're ready to get started. So let's start by having you say your name and also spell it for us. Tyler: My name is William T. Tyler. W-I-L-L-I-A-M, T, T-Y-L-E-R. Bauman: And you go by Bill? Tyler: Bill, yeah. Bauman: All right. And today's date is August 28th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we can, by maybe having you talk about what brought you to the area. When did you come to work at Hanford, and what brought you here? Tyler: We came out here on vacation from Oklahoma in 1947 to see my dad's brothers and sisters. And we were going to stay for a week or so. And my dad applied for a job here and got it, and we stayed. I thought it was the end of the world. This was not a pretty place in 1947. But I went in the Navy in 1950, got into the nuclear program and came out here in 1955. Went to work at Hanford. Worked as an HPT until '82, I believe. And then I went into management in health physics. Bauman: So HPT, you mean health physics technician. Is that was HPT is? Tyler: Uh-huh. Sorry. Bauman: That's okay. So how old were in 1947 when you came on vacation? Tyler: I think I was 15. Bauman: Okay. What sort of job did your father get? Tyler: He worked in transportation. Bauman: And you already had aunts and uncles who came here? Tyler: Yeah. Bauman: So you said you thought this was the end of the world. What do you mean by that? What are your first impressions of the place? Tyler: [LAUGHTER] Well, my first impression is we got here July the 5th. And my aunt and uncle had a little cafe on downtown Kennewick, on Kennewick Avenue. And it was about 104 degrees out. And we were driving down the street looking for it. And my dad says, man, I wouldn't live here if it's the last place in the world. And back then there was not a lot of trees. There was in Kennewick, and a few in Richland. But every time the wind blew, it was dusty and the tumbleweeds flew, and a lot of dust storms. In fact, they call them termination winds. Because everything was booming out in Hanford and every time the wind blew, people didn't like that and they'd just pick up and quit. So they called it termination winds. Bauman: Do you know when your aunt and uncles came here? Tyler: My aunt was born here in Kennewick. My uncle came out here in '37, '38, somewhere along that area. Bauman: Oh, okay, so you'd had relatives here before the Hanford site. Tyler: Oh yeah. Bauman: And so when your family first came in 1947 and you dad got the job and stayed here, where did you live? Tyler: We lived in Kennewick for a year. And then we got a house in Richland in 1948 at 635 Basswood. Bauman: That was a government home then? Tyler: Uh-huh. It was ranch house. And we moved in Thanksgiving Day of '48. And my future wife moved in next door the same day. I didn't know that was my future wife, but it turned out to be. And I still live on Basswood. Different house, but-- Bauman: So did you go to high school here then? Tyler: I went to Kennewick. I started in Kennewick because that's where we lived and I didn't want to transfer. So I rode the intercity bus every day to Kennewick and back. I graduated in 1950 and then somebody in Washington wanted me to join their services. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So how would you describe, outside of your first impression, how would you describe the community of Richland in late '40s, early 1950s? Tyler: It actually—it was a very good place to live. I didn't realize it at the time. It was smaller, much smaller--probably 5,000 people in each of the cities. It was a good place to live if you could ignore the wind blowing and the dust storms and that sort of thing. But it kind of grows on you. I know I wouldn't live anywhere else. Bauman: In those early years when you were here in the '40s and '50s, do you remember any particular community events that stand out in your mind? Tyler: Yeah, Atomic Frontier Days, the Grape Festival in Kennewick, and then the fair. Nothing big or spectacular, but it was something to do. Bauman: Can you describe Atomic Frontier Days a little bit? What sorts of things-- Tyler: Well, normally they had a queen and a parade of course. And it was just kind of a—I don't know how--just a parade and kind of a get together type thing for the people that lived here. Bauman: So let's talk about your work a little bit now. You said you started working in '55. Tyler: ’55. Bauman: So can you talk about who you worked for at time and a little bit more detail about what sorts of work you did? What area of the Hanford site you worked in? Tyler: Okay, I started February the 22nd, 1955. And my first work assignment was 200 West Area tank farms. And then I went up to the REDOX facility which was a separations facility. A couple months later, then I went to U Plant. And then I went to T Plant, which were all separation facilities. And then I went over to PUREX in December of 1955. That was prior to startup. We started up our first spiked run was I think March or April of '56. And I worked there until '62 I believe. When I worked there, we also was switched with the 100 Area HPTs, or RCTs, or radiation monitors for exposure reasons. Because they got a lot more exposure than we did, so we would switch with them. And I got to work in all the 100 Area reactors except N when they were running, and some of the 300 Area. Bauman: So just about everywhere? Tyler: Yeah, I worked basically in every facility out here except 234-5. Bauman: And so was GE the contractor? What contractor did you work for? Tyler: GE. They were the prime contractor. And they left here in '66 I believe. Then Rockwell and Westinghouse and Fluor Daniel and MSA. Bauman: So as a health physics technician, what exactly did that mean? What sorts of things did you do on a daily basis? Tyler: Well as you know, there was a lot of contamination, radiation. And our job was to set the dose rates if people were going into a radiation area. We would go in, set the dose rates, stay with them. Got to make sure that the dose rates didn't increase while they were in there. We surveyed them out when they were done with the GMs and alpha detectors to make sure they didn't take any contamination home with them. And that was our prime responsibility. We maintain control of personnel exposure rates and their contamination, if they had any, and made sure that everything was as clean as we could get it. That's the short and sweet version. Bauman: Yeah. And you did that, obviously, at all these different areas you worked at on the site? Tyler: Everywhere, inside, outside, burial grounds. Bauman: Were there ever any incidents while you were doing this where people did have excessive exposure or anything along those lines? Tyler: Yeah, there was a lot of them. When GE came here--well, they were the prime contractor. Back in those days, you really couldn't talk about your job. You could say that you worked at Hanford and that was pretty much it. But yes, there was a lot of good memories and bad memories. Some really high exposure rates almost on a daily basis, because everything was running. And what will go wrong probably does. And it was very interesting work. It was something different every day. It's the kind of job that you look forward to doing and working. I did. I really enjoyed it. Bauman: So what was the process or procedure if someone had an overexposure? Tyler: Well, you had your dosimetry, which—Battelle read that. So you know what they got. And that's the record that's with you forever. At that time I think we worked--[PHONE RINGING] Shit. We worked under a 50 millirem per day limits, or 300 a week. And sometimes you would exceed that. But we were issued dosimetry everyday when we came to work. And you had a film badge which was read I think once a month. But they kept a running record of your exposure. That's why when we, when 100 Area radiation monitor--[PHONE RINGING] Hello. Can I call you back, Ian? Okay, thanks. Sorry. I don't know how to turn it off. Bauman: So we're talking about the dosimeter-- Tyler: Yeah, they kept records of all your exposures. And then every month they would send you a copy or let you know what it was. But if before the end of the year was out, if you were running short of exposure, then they would transfer people--particularly the radiation monitors--to different areas. And they what they were doing was using our exposure instead of--and letting their people cool down a little bit. It was just a way of equalizing the dose rates to the personnel. And it worked good in theory. And there was some--and I probably shouldn't say this—but there was some little minor ripples in the water, because people accused the other people of hanging back and now I got to come save you, that sort of thing. But it was all in fun. Everybody knew how serious the job was. And that was just part of their job. Bauman: And so how long did you work as a health physics technician then? Tyler: I think until 1982 and I went into management in health physics. At that time, they called us managers. And I was the manager of East tank farms until 1988. And then I transferred over to the West Area environmental group and took that over. My responsibilities were all of the outside radiation contamination areas. Burial sites. '89 I retired. Came back three months later and went to work in the environmental restoration part-time. And I did that until 1995. And then when Bechtel came in, I left there and went back to health physics side and become a evaluator at HAMMER for radiation protection, which I still do. Bauman: So you still work for-- Tyler: Two to three days a week. Bauman: So you mentioned earlier the sort of secrecy of some aspects of Hanford. Obviously secrecy, security were a very important part of. I wonder if you could discuss that at all, any ways that impacted your work? Tyler: GE had a very rigid plan of how they wanted things to go. And security of course was top secret. If you went—and a few people did--they go down and have a beer at the bar and they get to talking. And you never know who you're talking to you. And there was cases where people didn't have a job the next morning. Because security would overhear them. And you were pretty much done. So people didn't talk about their job. They didn't even talk about it with their family. Security was very strict. When you—well, for instance, when you go to work in the morning or if you're on shifts, same thing. You would catch the bus at the bus lot. Get on the bus, go through the barricade at the Y. If I was going to PUREX, we'd go up, pull in to the front gate of PUREX. You'd get out, off the bus. Go through the badge house. Pick up your dosimetry. Go out. Get back on the bus. The bus would pull inside the gate. Get back on the bus. Go down to PUREX. Get off the bus. Go through their badge house. And they would check your lunch bucket and all that. And then go into the building. And then in the evening, just reverse that process and back out again. So they were very strict. If you drove your car, you could not drive it past the main gate of East Area. You parked outside. And when you could drive inside, security would check the glovebox and the trunk and whatever was in the car. So it was very regimented. Bauman: I wanted to ask you about, in 1963 President Kennedy visited for the opening of the N reactor. I wondered if you were there and have any memories of that event at all? Tyler: I was not there because I was on shift at that day, or I probably would have been. Bauman: Mm-hm. Obviously, one of things that happened with Hanford is the shift from focus on production to focus on clean up. And I wonder if that shift impacted your work in any way? Tyler: Yes. Like I said before, I was the manager of East tank farms. And my office was at Semi Works, which is in 200 East Area, which was a pilot plant for PUREX. Semi Works was running. We were doing strontium cesium runs. But then when the edict came out that we were going to phase out and clean up, one of the first facilities--well I think it was the first facility—that we started tearing down was Semi Works. And D&D did the work. But we shut it all down and demolished the building and just imploded it in place. Built a dirt berm over it, cleaned it up. Most of the cells and the tanks are still in place, but they're full of grout. And then there's concrete over it. And what we did was tear down—this was approximately a three-story building with three stories underground. So when we tore down the building—it had a lot of piping and columns—we tore down the building and left the west wall standing. And we filled everything we could get inside like the basement and concreted it in place. And then we undercut the west wall. And this is probably four foot thick. And got a couple of Caterpillars and chains and hooked it over the top of the west wall. Pulled it down over like a lid. And then dirt berm over it, and there it is. And the stack that was there—the exhaust, the big stack—they imploded that and laid her right alongside the building. One guy did that. We deconned it first, and he came in, and a dynamite expert told us where we was going to put the stack and put a stick out on the end in the ground like they do now on the TV. And laid that stack right down on that stick, all by himself. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So that definitely did make for significant changes then, the shift from production? Tyler: Very significant, because that was kind of pilot test for all the other anticipated deconning and decommissioning they we're going to do, which is still going on. Bauman: Let's shift now and talk a little bit about HAPO. I wonder--I know you've been involved with them quite often. I wonder if you can talk about your involvement when you became involved in HAPO and how that came about? Tyler: Well let's see. First, HAPO was a GE acronym which stands for Hanford Atomic Products Operations, which was the name of GE's part of this. GESA, which is another credit union down the street, was the General Electric Supervisors Association. GE was very particular about their managers or supervisors were a step above the blue collar worker. And I think they still maintain that. If you were a supervisor, it's white shirt and tie. And you don't fraternize with--So when the credit committee wanted to get started, that's the name they chose, just HAPO. And it's '53. And I was looking at one of the early--the record book. And I think there's five or six of the charter members of the first—that I worked with that were radiation monitors just like I was. But I never joined HAPO until my wife was--she likes C First. And I never joined HAPO until I think '71. And then a friend of mine that I worked with talked me into getting on the committee that approved loans, credit committee, which I did. And then I got invited later to go on the board of directors and got voted in and been there ever since. I really enjoyed it. It's a great credit union. Bauman: So is it the board of directors then, primarily is it either current or former Hanford employees? Tyler: No. It used to be when we were federal, you had to work out here to join HAPO. And then they relinquished or changed the bylaws so that anybody could join HAPO. If you give them $5 and signed up, you were a member for life. But initially it was you had to work here to join. Bauman: And you said you didn't join until '71. What led you to decide to join at that point? Tyler: The guy I carpool with, one of them, convinced me that I should do that. [LAUGHTER] And I didn't like C First. I never did like C First. But my wife liked them because you got at the end of the month, you got all of your checks back. And she liked that. But I joined HAPO and started my own checking account. And then she finally joined shortly after I did. And now the rest is history. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, I know you weren't part of the formation of the credit union. But I wonder if you can talk about it a little more? If you know more, were the employee unions at Hanford involved in the credit union, establishing that? Tyler: Yes. Bauman: And anything you can talk about that? Tyler: Helen Van Patten was one. GESA started it first. And then the blue collars said well, we got to have one of those. The first store was down by the Spudnut Shop. I think we had one or two employees. And everything was in a ledger, handwritten. Joe Blow borrowed $25. It was very basic. But fortunately, it kept growing and membership increased. Bauman: So the unions saw it as a way to provide credit union opportunities-- Tyler: Right. Bauman:--for blue collar workers or laborers or whatever? Okay. So I want to—going back to your work at Hanford, what are some of the more challenging aspects of your work, and maybe some more rewarding aspects of your work? Tyler: That’s a good question. Probably one of the most challenging was the responsibility when you're out on a hot job where the contamination levels are great and the radiation levels are great, and you have a whole crew of people. It challenges you to--it's always in the back of your mind that something's going to happen and I'm not going to see it, or I'm not going to catch it. And somebody's going to get overexposed. And that's always in the back of your mind. Because--and I have to beat my own drum here for a bit—radiation monitoring and health physics now, whatever they are, it's a very challenging job. You're responsible for--you're taking care of people. And they trust you. And they expect you to look out for them. And it's a lot of responsibility, but most everybody accepts that gladly, because they know how important it is. Because you're responsible for--you could get somebody really overexposed, and who knows what the consequences are? As far as rewards for that, I think is the satisfaction of when the job is done, that you knew you did your best job. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got overexposed. Nobody got contaminated. And the job got done. Bauman: Were there any events or incidents or anything, sort of unique things that happened during your time working at Hanford that sort of really stands out to you? Tyler: When I first hired in, like I said, I went to REDOX. One of the problems they had shortly before I got here was they had a ruthenium—they ran some ruthenium and they played it out in the stack. And then it broke loose. And it kind of went out in the desert and on the ground. And you had ruthenium chunks of—it looked like white paper that built up on the inside the stack and then finally broke loose and fluttered out and went everywhere. And one of my first jobs with a GM and a walking stick was walking out through the desert and finding these things. Little specks, big specks, didn't have any trouble finding them. [LAUGHTER] They were very hot. And I remember we used the KOA cans from T Plant, which were little round cans, metal cans about that big around, about this high with a snap-on lid. And that's what we put them in, with dirt for shielding. And then buried them. But there's been a lot of incidents of hot burials from PUREX. I remember some where we used a burial string. We used a locomotive, a whole bunch of flat cars. And then at that time, they'd build big wooden boxes. And I recall one big one that had enough lumber in it to build two B houses. Huge—it sat on two flat cars. And we put it in, and we took readings over the top of the tunnel as it went out of the tunnel towards the burial ground. And it read greater than 500 R. And as you know, 500 R for an hour is a lethal dose rate to 50% of the people, 60%. And then you go down the railroad track behind B Plant, pull it across the highway which patrol barricaded the road. So you pull the string across the road and then back it into the burial ground. And then you had to sink—this box was built on skids. And a big long steel cable lay on another flat car, three or four flat cars away from it. So you would pull that. And you would pull it down into a burial trench. And the Cat would be down there ready. And the train would back up and they would grab that cable, put the eye on. Hook it to the Cat. And then the Cat skinner would pull the cable off. And the train would move up until the boxes sit here and the cables here. And the Cat's down here pulling. And then we'd get up to the--and there was a dock where you could slide it off. And you would turn that box and pull it in. Pull it down into the trench, down to the other end, wherever you wanted it. Unhook the Cat. Leave it. Pull the Cat out. And then they would backfill that box. And that's the way they did the burials. And it worked great except when the box collapsed unexpectedly. Bauman: Then not so great. Tyler: Yeah, that's not a good--that happened once or twice. Bauman: During your years working out there, were you ever concerned about your own safety, health, protection, in any way? Tyler: Well as stupid as it may sound, no. I never was. Because I always figured I knew what I was doing. And I received some very good training in the Navy, which helped. But I never worried about it. I always trusted me. Bauman: Were you a member of a union when you were working at Hanford? And what union was that? And I guess, what sort of relationship did the union have with management here at Hanford during the time you were here? Tyler: Good and bad. [LAUGHTER] I used to be chief steward for the radiation monitors. I went through two negotiations. And after the last one, I decided I didn't want any more of that. Chief steward's a thankless job, but somebody's got to do it. Bauman: What does that mean exactly? What—chief steward-- Tyler: Well, you're the union rep plant wide for all of the HPTs. And I had this grandiose idea that I could just change everything. It's a great idea, but it doesn't work. It's a job that somebody has to do. And it's a job that is thankless. Because somebody's always mad at you. Whatever you do, in some of the people's eyes, you could always do better. And it's just not a good job. [LAUGHTER] But I enjoyed it. You learn a lot. And you learn both sides of the fence--how the company thinks and how the union thinks. And then you try and compromise. Bauman: Were there ever any times you were here where there was a strike or any sort of-- Tyler: Two--'66 and '76. Bauman: And were those sort of across the site? Tyler: Yep. And in '66, after we settled the '66 strike, GE left. Bauman: Was that one of the reasons they left? Tyler: Yeah, well, they had planned to leave. And then that's when--because when GE was here, they were the only contractor. And then when they left, they kind of broke it up into the 200 Areas and the 100 Areas. And it's always been different contractors, not just one prime contractor. Bauman: Do you remember what some of the key issues were in '66 and '76 in terms of-- Tyler: Wages. Wages were always the key issue. Well, I take that back. '66 or '76 was, they were going to do away with the buses. And that was a key issue for everybody. It didn't happen, but it was a--that was when they spent all the money redoing the bus lot. And then a couple years later, they did away with the buses anyway. But we did get air conditioned buses. Before we had old buses, the old green buses. Well like the ones sitting down at-- Bauman: The CREHST Museum? Tyler: Yeah. Those were some of the newer ones. The older ones were international buses that looked like a truck. Cold in the winter and hot in the summer. But they worked. When they did away with the buses, see, that did away with a lot of jobs in the bus lot. Maintenance, everything there, which was a lot of people. Bauman: So part of that was about jobs and issues of transportation? Tyler: Mm-hmm. Bauman: Anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or that you think we should talk about? Tyler: Well, we've covered pretty much every--well, we've covered pretty much everything I think. I don't really know what you're looking for. Bauman: Just your experience. That's why I wonder if there's something that you experienced some event or something that I haven't asked you about yet that you think would be important to— Tyler: Well. When I retired, I took the first early out and then got bored to death and came back. When I was in the environmental group in West Area, a good friend of mine was an environmental manager outside the site. But he talked me into coming back part time and become a waste shipper and a waste handler. Which was--I'd never done it. I knew what it was. But I finally relented. I enjoyed it. It's entirely different. Because I was kind of burned out on radiation protection, and I wanted to do something different. Didn't want to retire, but I wanted to do something different. So I went to the classes and become a certified waste shipper and a waste handler. And we took care of all of the sites outside of 200 East, 200 West. All the burial sites, all the drilling sides, the river, pretty much everything. And it was very interesting. Until '95, when I decided I didn't like the contractor. [LAUGHTER] And I went back to health physics. Bauman: Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Obviously most of your career, the Cold War was going on during most of the time you were working at Hanford. So I'm wondering what you think would be important for young people today and people in future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Tyler: I'm trying to remember. We had the strike in '66. And there was almost another strike four or five years later. In fact midnight was the deadline when we were supposed to go on strike. And at 11:30, we got a notification that the President had put a stop to the strike because of the situation with the Cold War thing. And I think that's the first and the last time that ever happened. But as far as-- Bauman: So then about 1970 or so? Tyler: Early, yeah, '71 or '72 maybe. No, it was before that, because I was still on shift. It was probably '68, '69 maybe. But as far as the Cold War, it's still going on in different forms—my personal opinion. You look back at history--and I've lived through a lot of it--nothing has really changed. Like what's going on now, and the Bible says there'll be war and rumors of war. And that's correct. Because whatever our President does—whatever he does is going to be wrong in a lot of people's eyes. It's kind of like if you don't do it, you should have. And if you do do it, you shouldn't have. [LAUGHTER] It's a different type of cold war. Instead of—we used to worry about Russia. And I'm not too sure that—maybe we should still be worrying about Russia and a lot of other countries that--Things have changed. But they haven't—the basic things that caused the Cold War hasn't changed. There's all kind of weapons. I don't know. Bauman: All right. I think that's all the questions I have for you. Tyler: Okay. Bauman: I want to thank you for coming in today. Tyler: Thank you for having me. Bauman: Pleasure to talk to you. Tyler: Good. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:47:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 244 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 West Area U Plant T Plant 100 Area 300 Area 200 East Area Tank Farms Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1995 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John. F Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Tyler Description An account of the resource An interview with Bill Tyler conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear waste disposal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-18: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Bechtel Building 200 East Building 200 West General Electric GESA (General Electric Supervisors Association) HAMMER HAPO (Hanford Atomic Products Operations) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) T Plant Tank Farms U Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F16b66f3e1c1cb8b8ed294a6dddb21740.jpg ad0e3f5431004fd43548afb7264e924a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc0f13b96fadf7bb738c566537000019d.mp4 1271c49a08b7d223b0499f5b78e53ec9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Trent, Frank Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Trent_Frank Frank Trent: Well I don't know. Robert Bauman: I just let people tell their stories is really what the primary thing is. I have some questions to try and help it along a little, but--So we're going? Man one: Yeah. Bauman: Okay, great. All right. So maybe before I ask any questions, if I could have you say your name and spell it for us. Trent: Okay. My name is Frank Trent. And I live in Richland, Washington. Bauman: And the last name is T-R-E-N-T? Trent: Yes. Bauman: Okay. Great. And my Name's Robert Bauman. And we are conducting this oral history interview on February 12th of 2013 on the campus at Washington State. Trent: '14. Bauman: What's that? '14. Trent: [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Thank you. You would think by February I would have figured-- Trent: You want to start over? Bauman: No, we're good. I'll just say 2014. It's still this form that has it. There we go. So I wonder if we can start by maybe just telling us what brought you to Hanford. How you came here? What brought you here? And maybe your initial impressions of the place? Trent: Well, I first came here in 1950, in the winter of 1950. And we came over the pass. At that time, it was—there was no Snoqualmie Pass at the time. It was the one out on 410 highway going over the mountains. Closes every winter. Bauman: Not White Pass, huh? Trent: Nope. Bauman: I don't know. Trent: Maybe it'll come to me. Anyway, we came over the pass in the back of a Deuce and a Half truck. And it was a whole company of us. And pre-military set up here. And we came in and there was snow about 200 feet in the air where they plowed it often, blew it into the mountains. And all you could see is walls of snow on both sides. But anyway, we came on in down here and lived in a pup tent. You don't know what those are probably. You do? Bauman: Mm-hmm. Trent: And two people teamed up. And here you had something about the size of a blanket. And it was thinner than a blanket. It was called a--the material was made like a tent material. And we called them pup tents. There was two people. And each person carried a half of it. And then when you went out into the fields or combat or wherever, you set that tent up. And that's where you lived. Well, it was pretty cold here. And we wound up burning anything we can get a hold of. It's a wonder we didn't kill ourselves. And these little pup tents, they only had a little opening you could make, or you'd get too much stuff in there--air, cold air. Bauman: Do you remember any specific things that you burned? Trent: Show polish. Anything that would get heat. Paper, shoe polish, anything. And that was the worst I guess. And we had one guy freeze to death. I don't know. It was cold. I started driving a water truck. And I wound up in the back of the water truck. It was a Dodge, 3/4 ton Dodge pickup. And it had a cover on it. So I slept in there. And during the night, the water container froze and busted. And I got water all over there and it froze. And I was sleeping in ice. [LAUGHTER] Me and another guy. But that was the shock of it when you got here was there was nothing here but desert. There was a few trees, but people hadn't started raising too many trees at that time. If they did, they weren't very big. That was my--and when we went out, we went out on the Project and stayed out there for three weeks. They had four groups. One group was off all the time. And the other three was covering around the clock. And we set up 120 millimeter gun emplacements, set up in a diamond formation. And then off to the side in the openings of the diamond formation, there was four 50 caliber machine gun nests. And we could fire. And we did. We fired tracers, and every so often, a tracer would come out. They were timed so that every so many shells, and then a tracer would come out. That way you could follow that tracer with your—aiming your gun. But they were also hooked up to, at a later time, to the radar. And there was radar guided. Anyway, that was the emplacements. And we had a full crew there 24 hours a day. And we went up to Yakima and took our guns with us. Two of them I think is all we took though. They were beginning to set up that firing range up there. And we were doing pretty good at shooting that thing. And evidently, the radar got off a little bit with their calculations. And wound up, we shot the cable off just off the tail end of the airplane. They left. They didn't want any more. They says, we're going and we're ain't coming back. So that's part of it. Anyway, that's the beginnings of my arrival here. Bauman: Where on the site were you? Trent: Are you familiar enough with the old Y? You go through the first barricade, then you drive for, I don't know, about halfway to 2 West, 2 East. Maybe not quite that far, but there's a turn off there. Goes back towards, still 2 East, that 2 East area. And then you go on down and pick up 2 West. And we turned off just after that barricade out there at the Y. It may be two miles down from that Y area, there was a turn-off. And there was dirt, gravel and dirt. That's the old military highway road. And we were back in there probably five or six miles. You could see Rattlesnake very plainly from there. And a later time, when they built that road down through there going out to Yakima—Horn Rapids High Road—and at a later time, why, you could see that road and traffic on it from out there. Because I went out there with a group on our 50th military reunion and we made a new visit there. And cars were going by. Then there was no road back there. Anyway, at that time, if the cars that had been there--we were that close to where the highway's at now. There's a big knoll out there, just a rounded hill of sand. And that was between us and the Rattlesnake Mountain. So that'll give you a general location of where we were. It was A Battery, 518th. Bauman: Okay. So where were you from originally? Had you ever been to this part of the Northwest before? Trent: No. I come out of Harlan County, Kentucky. Lot of hills down there, rolling hills, but nothing mountainous like we know them now. Born and raised on a farm. Family of 17—18, counting me. And one mother and father. And we raised everything we could raise to eat ourselves. And the only thing we bought was stuff like staples that you had to have that you didn't grow. My dad was a coal miner, and the older boys actually raised the foods that we needed. Fed the animals, and ate the animals. And then in, let's see, October the 8th, 1949, I and two other guys from that area joined the service. I rode a bus. It was raining, about 6:15 in the morning. Got on the bus and never looked back. We went from there to Harlan and got in a military bus. And they drove us to Corbin, Kentucky. And that's right in there near Knoxville. And from there, we got on the train. We went to Louisville and then to Fort Knox. So that's how I got to that. Then we spent three or four months, I don't remember, in basic training. And then we shipped out in trucks for this side of the mountain, for Washington. Well first, we came out by train. And then we got into buses and trucks and went up to Fort Lewis, and Fort Lewis over here. We were selected as the first group to arrive in the Tri-Cities to help set up. Bauman: Oh, okay. So how long were you at Fort Lewis then? Trent: Just long enough to not want it. We did a lot of advanced basic training, crawling through mud and dirt and dust. And when you come out of there, you couldn’t see nothing but eyeballs. You was hot and then you put your arm down to crawl forward and then shooting over top of you with tracers. And the dust would puff up and it would stick to you, sweat on your body. So that was an experience. Bauman: Yeah. So you said when you were out of the site, you were there for about three weeks. Then you'd have a week off, then you’d go back. So in terms of food when you were out on site, what sort of food did you have? If you were in the tents all the time? Trent: Well at the beginning, before we really got set up, we was eating what you would call combat type rations. They'd come in containers and it was dished out after it was heated up. Our stove was a Bunsen burner under pots and pans. And we’d go through a line and dunk our mess kit in the boiling water and get any germs off of it that way. And then we ate dinner, and then we come back and had another container we dunked it in and brushed it out. And then dunked it in clean boiling water again. So that's how we kept stuff kind of sanitized. And a lot of people got dysentery from it. But mostly, it wasn't—we didn't have it too bad. Food wasn't too bad. And at a later time, after we got to set up, we had a regular mess tent and cooks. And we ate good. Sand in it, but we ate. Bauman: So did you know anything about Hanford before you came here? Trent: No, and I didn't know anything after I got here. But none of us did. We just knew we was guarding this installation, and we would be on around-the-clock duty. If you were asleep, the alarm sounded, everybody went to their stations. And we had a number of planes come through. And we had to get our big guns on it. And we would track it until they gave us the order to shoot. We only shot one time out there. And that was basically to settle the guns in and orient them so when they shot at something, they got fairly close. Those 120 millimeter shell casings were probably about that long. And the projectile was probably about that long. And they were timed: after you shot one of them into the air, they were timed to the target. And then they blew up. And supposedly it would supposed to knock down anything within a—I think it was 75 yards radius. So it could get anything in four directions. And we come close to getting the target plane. Yeah, it wasn't funny to the pilot, but it was funny to us. Bauman: So then when you had a week off, where did you go? Did you go to town? Trent: We had barracks in town. And that's the barracks here in North Richland. If you're coming up George Washington Way going north and you come to that rise in the road, and then you can level and go down toward Battelle. Just as you cleared the top of the road, there was a steam and boiler plant, steam generating plant just off to the left. And then the road that went by that—that was one of the first roads. We generally would turn on that. All of that area back down in there was barracks. And you can still see some of the pedestals that they sat on. And then over on the other side of GW Way there was—no, I guess it's still on the same side. They just add roads dividing the camp. And we were fairly close to a service station over on the highway, highway Stevens if you're going out to Hanford. We were just off of that a little bit—our outfit was. And from there, whoever was ready to go in and go back out, why, we took off in Deuce and a Half trucks. And we'd go out in a convoy and relieve the other outfit that was out there. And while you were gone, your camp was taken over by a new group. And that rotated. Bauman: So, on sort of a typical day, what might your duties be? What sorts of things might have happened? Trent: Scavenging. We made trips around out there. They probably figured out what we were doing, but they didn't seem to bother us because we didn't have nothing but tents at first. And so we'd scavenge enough stuff until we could put some stuff together to get in out of the wind. We couldn't get away from the sand though. But we did that and then done our duty. And we went off duty in the late afternoon and after dinner, we was off for the evening unless you got an alarm, an alert. And immediately, whatever you could get on, why you got on, and you got on those guns. Got everything turned on and adjusts your azimuth and elevation, and be ready to fire whatever come through if you were told to fire. Bauman: So how long did you have just the pup tents? At what point did you [INAUDIBLE]? Trent: It's probably about two months. And they come in and put up what we called a trip tent. And it's big enough to hold about ten people, five bunks down each side. And then later we put in wooden floors in them, and so we'd raise them up off of the ground a little bit so we wouldn't be sleeping right next to the ground. So, they brought it all out, and we had to put it together. Bauman: And so how long were you doing this? How long were at Hanford in this capacity? Trent: I was out there almost three years, And this discharge here. And by then, I was married and had one kid when I was discharged. Discharged in February of '53. And from that point, I found whatever I could to work at. But it wasn't much for a while. Finally I put in an application for General Electric, and they hired me. And that was my first trip as a civilian out to Hanford. Bauman: You mentioned you got married. Did you meet your wife here? Trent: Yes. Her dad came in '43. Actually, he came in 1940 out to the Northwest. And he went back to Memphis again. And from that point, he was working just across the border in Arkansas, out of Memphis. And some guy come through, I guess from the government, and put the word out, anybody want to transfer or go move to Washington? We've got a project up there we're building, and we need help. Anybody we can get to go. And he came out with that group and worked out here. And a year later, she came out. Well first off, he came in '40, went back and came back in about '43, in '43. And then he was here about a year, and then the kids came out. They came out by railroad, and no supervision. I think she was 12, my wife, 11 or 12. Her mother had—she would have been 12--because her mother had died earlier, tuberculosis. And she came out, and the rest is history. He stayed here and raised his family and worked at Hanford and wound up--one day, they came in and they had nobody that could really read a blueprint and follow it. And so they come around looking, and somebody said, go see Mac. He'll do that. And that was the beginning of his rise, which didn't go very far. He was some kind of a maintenance supervisor out there. And they come and got him and he said, let's see your prints. And he looked at them a little bit. Yeah, he said, I can build it. So they took him over there and he built the building for them with a crew. But they'd already started building. He had to tear it all down because it was wrong. And then after, I don't know, maybe six months, seven, I was in passing, and went into the drugstore at O’Malley’s—you remember where that was at? Okay. That had a little soda fountain in there. And I went in there and me and another guy and ordered a milkshake. And she said what kind do you want? I says, any kind you got. I don't know, just a milkshake. She figured she'd fix me, so she went back there and made me a suicide milkshake. Everything in the fountain went in it. That drink’s pretty good. So that's where I met my wife, 1950. And we were married in December after that. Bauman: That's a great story. Trent: Raised three boys. One of them is a Microsoft jet pilot. Flies for Microsoft. And one of them, well at this particular time, is in Edmonton, Canada—construction manager of some kind, hot spot guy. And the other one, Frank, is working in construction over on the west side. And he is living in Brown's Point in Tacoma, right on the ocean. Bauman: Yeah. So you mentioned at some point you got a job with GE. What sort of job was that? Trent: Anything to get on. I started out doing manual labor and mowing lawns. And I probably had about five or six months of that. And then I was transferred to White--not White Bluffs—Riverton. And I was doing maintenance work and oil changes on the railroad engines. And many times you'd have oil clean up to your elbows. And I don't know what they did with the oil. We drained it out into containers, and they disposed of it. Probably illegally, in these days. And from there then I went to work at 2 West. And I worked T Plant, U Plant,--at T Plant 221-T, 224-T, those two plants. And then I worked also, that was T-Plant. And then U Plant, I went to work down there. They needed people down there, so they sent me down there and done the same thing down there in U Plant, because the areas were almost identical in operation. And then the stuff that came out of there went to REDOX I believe. And they run through the procedures there, separating stuff out and boiling it down to what they were really looking for. And so anyway, we handled a lot of powdered uranium in that 224 Building. And after it was centrifuged, the heavy metal uranium powder was thrown out to the sides and stuck to the sides of the centrifuges. And the liquid was settled back down and drained back out and recycled back through I guess. I don't remember exactly the procedure. And we'd ship that uranium out of there and put it in barrels. And it was shipped out, I don't know where it went to. Maybe some of it went to Oak Ridge, I don't know. And then that was in operations. And we worked the hot zones. And they had us when we'd go into one, we'd have the RAMU people. They'd check you in, and when you had up to your limit on exposure, you'd come out. Go in and take samples and clean up in areas that were really hot spots. Bauman: When you did those sorts of things, what sort of protective clothing did you wear? Trent: Well, we would go in and change into SWP clothing and hoods. We had our regular shoes and we put covers over the shoes, plastic over the covers. And your pants legs were all taped down so that nothing could get through. And gloves, of course. And it was all taped down. And the last thing that went on was a mask. You had a canister of air. And I think you had somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes and you're out of air. You better be out of there, or at least close enough where you could hold your breath and run to get out of there. Yeah, we worked the hot zones quite a bit. Sometimes we'd have to work until we were triple exposed to get a job done. And then of course we was relieved out of that until we were even with the scale of exposure. So that when you back in, why, they basically had you at zero exposure for starting back up. There was a lot of sitting time, because they had to have the people. And if you didn't keep them there, you didn't have the people to do the jobs. So rather than fire them, they'd put them on clean work. And if they didn't have that, you sat in the lunch room and played cards. Then from there—I went in and later, I went from the 2 West Area to the 100 Areas, and was in power operation there--boilers, refrigeration, air conditioning, and pumping stations that pumped water for the reactors. Bauman: So you were at several places on site then? Trent: Mm-hmm. I worked 100 B, C, D, DR, 2 West, not 2 East, but I'd been in 2 East a number of times. 2 West, I think that's about it out there, Riverton of course, at the beginning I was in Riverton. That's the old railroad station that hauled stuff in and out of Hanford. Bauman: So of those—of the different places on site that you worked at different jobs that you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most? Trent: I enjoyed operating equipment--boilers, steam engines, pumping water, of course, electric, diesel generators. We had on our river pump station, we had pumps down there that'd pump 105,000 gallons per minute each of water. And if something happened to those pumps, then the diesels come online automatically. Now the diesel size was the PT boat that John Kennedy used when he was in the service. They were two diesel generators of the same size that came out of the—or were installed in the PT boats. And they were pretty good size. They would pump the same amount of water as the big electric box. The lines, I don't know what size they were now. I seem to remember 100, 102 inches in diameter. Pretty good sized piping. And if something happened, the scram, why, of course, they had to have water and generally pumped through with the diesels if something happened to a pumping station. So you always had backup. There was one incident in the 200 Area's power house. We had a backup generator down there generating electricity to use in case of power outages or whatever. And they were set on automatic standby. And my father-in-law was at that with his crew, was there doing work in that area. And it was in an open, kind of an open area. The showers were in that general area too. Never had a problem with any of those diesel generators. And they were in there eating dinner. They set a row of lockers up to separate the area. And that was where they ate. And that's where they went in and took showers before they went home. Or they come out of hot zone, they still had to take a shower. And they were in there having dinner, and for some unknown reason, nobody hung around. They ate their dinner, and they got up and went out back to the job and whatever they were doing I guess, early. And the generator tripped and came online. There was something wrong with the governor. And a diesel generator when it turns loose like that, and it can't get fuel from one place, it'll get it from another. It went on up to critical speed and blew up. And it embedded metal about three inches into concrete, solid concrete. So that's how bad—it could have wiped out everybody in that room. It wiped the room out. All their lockers and everything, that was gone. But that was one of the incidences that I remember that happened. Bauman: Do you have any idea roughly what time period that might have been? Trent: Phew, no, I don't. It would've been in the low '50s, early '50s. Because he went to work there in 2 West when I first came here. Yeah, his crew worked 2 West, 2 East. So they rotated around, wherever they were needed. But that happened to be in the 2 West Area where that generator blew up. Nobody was hurt. Pure luck. Bauman: Earlier when you were talking, you mentioned that when you were in the army stationed out here, you didn't really know anything about Hanford or what was going on? Trent: Well, we know we were guarding the installations there. And we knew that workers came in by buses and left by buses. And then later years—first you couldn't drive a car out there of any kind other than government. And then later years of course, that was relented and people could drive out there to their area. But mostly we were in and out of there in buses. And we came in nothing but bus to the 1100 Area, which is over here, off of Spangler, south of Stevens. And we came into there and unloaded there in a big parking lot in there while we had our cars parked there. So that's the routine. Everyday, we get up, the buses come through town and picked you up, all you to the 1100 Area. You changed to your area bus and get on there and it'd take you to right straight to your area, and off of there and check you through the security. And the same way when you come out. Security would check you out, you'd get on the bus, they'd haul you home. Bauman: Was there at some point that you ended up driving your own car out? Or would you take buses? Trent: I did a couple of times, but it wasn't worth it. There's too much fuel. But fuel was cheap then, compared to now. Still, you had to—and we came out when John F. Kennedy came out here. The whole family went out. And I was at that time working at 100 N Area. And we got 100 N Area up. And I was on duty the night they went critical and put the reactor in operation. That was the first dual purpose reactor, 100 N. Bauman: Do you have any specific memories about when President Kennedy was here? What the day was like, or remember anything about him arriving? Trent: The only thing I know is we were--they had the place set up for visitors to come in. And they had a lot of chairs. And a lot of it was standing room only because they didn't have enough chairs. They were getting ready to build the Washington Public Power Supply System’s generating system out there. And the pumps, those pumps I swear that they were longer than this room, each pump, steam-generated or steam-powered. And that was 109 N, was that generating place. And people were rotated shift-wise the same way—ABCD was the shifts. And of course, the fourth one was off. And then while that one was off, a spare would come in. So actually it's five crews. It was interesting. I worked water side of it for a lot of years. We had one guy that worked out there that was scared to death of something he couldn't understand. And he could not understand the big piece of equipment operating. And he was scared of it. And one night on duty—our shift was, and the chief engineer said Frank, can you get down to 181 real quick. I says, well, yeah. So anyway I headed out, grabbed the first pickup I could find in the parking area there and drove it down to 181. Both diesels were running backup. Don't know what happened, still don't. Anyways, I found him. He was sitting back in a corner away out of sight of the diesels. He was standing there in a corner shivering, just scared—petrified. So I got him out and put him out in the pickup. And I say you stay out there and let me take care of the problem here. So anyway, I guess I took care of the problem and then got him out there. So I got the generators under control and asserted the diesels under control, put them back on automatic and standby. And then the other pumps of course, got them going in the order I was doing the job. And I went and got him back out there. And when I reported in and wrote the incident up, he came to me, I don't know, very short time thereafter. And he says Frank, I'm going to quit. He said, I'm married, I've got three kids. I can't get into the military. And that's what I want to do. So he said I'm going to divorce my wife and I'm going to volunteer for the Coast Guard. And he did that. And the next thing I know, he put a transfer in from the Coast Guard into the military, army. And they accepted him. So he got into the military even though he was married. And a few years down there, well I guess it was nothing but two or three years, or a year or two. Anyway I got a call from my son who was a warrant officer flying helicopters down in Louisiana, Texas and Louisiana area. But anyway he--I guess, yeah, it was Texas. Killeen, Texas. He said do you know a Dave Eggar? I said, yeah. He said you won't believe this, but he's the guy in charge of training us in these helicopters. [LAUGHTER] And he had went through the school, learned how to fly the helicopters, and wasn't afraid of them at all. And he wound up leading that group that my son was in through their training program. And my son flew choppers down there. He already had his private pilot license. He got that before he got out of high school. And anyway, he spent his time in the military and he started flying with them. Wound up at his own company with two jets and a chopper and a little fixed wing, twin engine plane. And then 9/11 went and wiped him out. His business went to nothing. So then he started with putting his pilot's license out there, his experience in getting letters out. And he got a call one day from Microsoft people and went to work for them. He's still doing it, all over the world. Bauman: Yeah. I wanted to ask you, you had mentioned when you were in the army here and you would have you week off, you stayed in barracks. Once you got married, what sort of housing did you have? Trent: The first house we got was a small--I think it was about a 20-foot trailer, used. And a lot of the early Hanford people would move trailers in out there. And added onto them as a matter of fact. But as they had kids in a small trailer, where do you put them? You put a room on it. And that's what we did, we lived in that trailer. And then we lived there up until I was discharged. And then we bought a trailer. And I was working for a guy that didn't like the idea of me buying a trailer. It was a single wide. But it was about, I don't know, probably 50 feet long, somewhere in that. It may not have been that big. It was big enough, it had three bedrooms. And bought the trailer and moved it in and set up in and fat, dumb, and happy. But he didn't like the idea of me working for him who was selling trailers and buying it from somebody else. So he fired me. [LAUGHTER] So that was our first home. And then we were forced to move out of the place out there next to the Battelle area, just south of Battelle. We had to move out of there because I wasn't in the military anymore. When I did go to work for GE, we got a house, prefab. I think it was a--first one was a two-bedroom. And then we got a three-bedroom house. And we lived there until they started selling the town back to people. And I was interested. They set it up in blocks. So they would complete the transfer of one block by contracts to the owner that lived in it. And some of the prices were, for the two bedrooms, were like $2,500. And three bedrooms was just slightly more, like $3,000, $3,200. And I don't think any of them ran over $5,000, any of the homes. And lo and behold, I got an eviction notice. I was laid off in between. And two days after they evicted me and I got out of that house, they sold my block. So I didn't get a house. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, that was kind of how we got started. Finally, I left here and worked down in Colorado for about a year and a half, two years. And put in a transfer back there, a transfer or quit and came back to—I was out here on vacation a week's vacation, ten days I guess. And I dropped by the unemployment office and they said yeah, we'll put you back to work. So anyway, I went down and terminated. Gave them my notice and came back out here and went to work. And I worked there until—see I don't remember now, '50—hmm. Late '60s, because I left the project completely in '68. And I was out there one day and boss came in and said, Frank, he said, I understand you talked to so and so. He’s an instrument guy, a contractor that installed instrumentation and tubing for those instruments. I don't remember his name. And he told you were a job was at. And I said yes, he did. Anyway, he said, did you go down for an interview and talk to those people? And I said no. He says, why don't you do that? I said why? I was working at Battelle. Well, he said, you never know. I said yeah, I can go down and talk to him. I went down and interviewed. Went on back out. Still hadn't heard nothing from him and boss came by again and asked me about it. I said, don't know, just sat in there fat, dumb, and happy waiting for things to happen. And then his boss came down and he says Frank, you take that job if they offer it. And after three months, if you decide you don't like it, you come back and we'll put you right back where you're at. You won't lose no seniority or anything. Lo and behold, it was the beginnings of the university here in North Richland. And I came down here and they put me to work. Punched out construction and—helped punch out construction and get them out here. And got everything in operation and moved the staff in. And the rest is history. I left here in 1995, right at 30 years retirement. With military, I had more than enough time for—I think it was a year and a half. 27 and three-quarters or something like that years--and then of course I had five years of service to attach on so, retired with 30 years. Bauman: When you look back at your time looking at Hanford, overall how you assess Hanford as a place to work? Trent: Well compare that to where I came from, and it was a gold mine. Because we were hand-to-mouth. And we had to raise everything by hand or horses or whatever, and some cows, and raised all of our eats and stuff like that. So, we worked. We didn't have no spare time. From the time I was seven, I had a hoe in my hand working. And my brothers, the same way. Girls took care of the house, the boys took care of the outside. We had a pretty good sized garden. And we also had large acres of corn and beans, cornfield beans, potatoes, large patches of potatoes. So we have plenty to eat. Never did lack stuff to eat. But when you look at the lifestyle, and you didn't know where your next shoes was going to come from or your clothes, because money—cash money was hard to come by. And dad worked the coal mines, so he didn't make a lot, but enough to feed his family and keep going. So it was pretty nice to get out here where you can make a decent living. I think I was making--I think I was making about $75 a week, net out, when I first started. Bauman: When you first started working for GE or for--? Trent: With GE, yeah. And I also worked the 300 Area. And I helped start up the Sandcastle out here, Battelle where they're at now. The first buildings, there was three of them. And I was down there to get the equipment started and get it running. So I did that until the union got me and forced me out. So that was another reason it made my decision easier to leave there. I had four layoffs from Hanford due to cutbacks. And seniority, it didn't matter who you were or whatever. Seniority won. The other guy sat there and laughed at you and said I told you. You'll be out there working your tail off and he'll be sitting on his fanny reading or whatever. Doing his job, but nothing extra. You get a guy that would get in there and work, it didn't matter. If you didn't have the seniority, you were gone. So I got caught in four layoffs. No, three. The fourth one I quit and came down here. But it was a nice way to make a living. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and telling us about your experiences both in the Army and working at Hanford. Appreciate it. Trent: Same. Bauman: Thanks very much. Trent: You bet. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:56:19 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ca1950-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1950-?, ?-1995 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Y area 2 West 2 East T Plant U Plant T Plant 221-T 224-T 224 Building 100 Area B Area C Area D Area DR Area 200 Area Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Eggar, Dave Kennedy, John F Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Trent Description An account of the resource An interview with Frank Trent conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-02-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-8: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 224 Building B Plant Building 200 East Building 200 West C Reactor D and DR Reactors General Electric Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) SCRAM T Plant U Plant Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1f3f2ad4eabfdc6465a8afa210779012.jpg 269c664e01e416ed126dfd99c1175b8c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7daa69ce21ddcd39044ef6f3581c873d.mp4 9cadf5113faa28298003da2a0f4ba0f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rickard, Bill Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Rickard_Bill Robert Bauman: Turn the microphone on here. Man one: Yeah. Bauman: Okay. Man one: Go ahead and just get comfortable. And whenever you’re ready. Bauman: Okay. All right. We're going to go ahead and get started. I need to put my glasses on so I can see what I’m doing here. So if we could start first by just having you say your name and then spell your name for us. William Rickard: Okay. My name is William H. Rickard Jr. W-I-L-L-I-A-M H. R-I-C-K-A-R-D Junior, J-R period. Bauman: Thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman. Today's date is December 4, 2013. And we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So maybe we could start by just having you tell us a little bit about your background--where you're from, when you came to Hanford, what brought you here, that sort of thing. Rickard: Okay. Well, the first time that I ever heard the words atomic bomb, I was rifleman in an infantry company for the Chinese combat command in a place in China called Chihkiang. Chihkiang was a dirt airstrip. There were about 100 soldiers there. Our main duty was to guard an ammunition dump at an airfield. In August, 1945, I'd been in the Army for 15 months. I was 19 years old. The captain called us together and said that United States Air Force had dropped a bomb in Japan. It was an atomic bomb. Of course, I was extremely glad that the war was over. It was a few days later, I stood on the same airstrip and a Japanese airplane flew in. Only I'd been in the Army in January, February, and March, and April along the Burma Road in China. During that stay in Burma, slept on the ground every night. Kept my M1 rifle with me all the time. When I got to China, I got a bed for the first time in four months. So Chihkiang duty was pretty soft compared to Burmese duty. And when they dropped the atomic bomb, I knew I would be going home. Well, they had a point system in the Army. I think you needed 65 points. And you got points for combat experience and so forth. Well, I was one point short. So guess what. I got assigned to a military police company in Shanghai, China. For six months, I was an MP in Shanghai, which is probably more dangerous than my stay at Chihkiang. But anyway, I finally got home. Like most veterans did, I used the GI Bill to get a degree. I graduated from the University of Colorado in 1950 with a degree in botany. And I got a job at the University of Colorado at that time installing weather stations in the Front Range. While I had a job, I decided to go to school some more, and I wanted to be a high school teacher so I could teach botany and biology. Well, I graduated from Colorado in 1950 and got a master's degree in 1953. And then I decided, well, maybe I ought to think of teaching in college. So I applied for a research assistant appointment at Pullman. So in 1953, Barbara, my wife, and I went to Pullman. And there I graduated in 1957 with a Ph.D. with Dr. Daubenmire. The first job I got was as assistant professor of biology at New Mexico Highlands University in Las Vegas, New Mexico. But it was a part time teaching job. The other part was a field research job at the Nevada Test Site. And the purpose of my work at the Nevada Test Site was to study the impacts of atomic explosions on the botanical aspects of the Nevada Test Site—Yucca, Frenchman Flat and Jackass Flat. I worked there for four years and saw the last above ground explosion, which was during the operation of Project Hardtack and Plumbbob. While I was at the Test Site, I met Jared Davis, who was working at Hanford. He was in the biology department and he offered me a job at Hanford. So I moved to Richland in 1960 and was employed by the General Electric Company. At that time, most of the interest was on developing peaceful uses of atomic energy. And one of these was to use nuclear explosion to dig a harbor at Cape Thompson in Alaska. And part of our job there was to get baseline data on the biota of the Arctic, and also to measure how much radioactivity had already been deposited by the years of nuclear testing by the United States and Russia. So that was the start of that. And I worked up there for a couple of summers. And I worked with Jerry Davis there, and Wayne Hanson, Don Watson, and Roy Nakatani, and Leo Bustad, and Frank Hungate. Frank was my boss for a while. And Jared Davis was the boss. But my real interest at Hanford was, although I did the uptake of radioactivity from soil to plants, I was really interested in perhaps getting a part of the Hanford site set aside as a kind of a research park. Had lots of help from various people that thought this was a good idea, particularly Rexford Daubenmire at Pullman and Herb Parker, who was manager of the Hanford Laboratories. We conceived the idea perhaps establishing Rattlesnake Mountain as a research natural area. And with the help of other people, particularly Benton County Commissioner at that time, and the building of the Highway 240 from Richland to Vernita Bridge, that set Rattlesnake Mountain apart from the rest of the site and offers a good excuse to--since it was primarily a buffer zone, that this would be a good place to establish the reserve, which eventually turned out to be the Arid Land Ecology Reserve. Which in 2000, was turned over to the Fish and Wildlife Service as a part of the Hanford Reach National Monument. So most of my research activity was done on ALE Reserve after the work we'd done in Alaska. Bauman: And so what sorts of work were you doing at ALE Reserve? Rickard: Well, the first project we started on was the impact of cattle grazing on shrub steppe. And we did that in conjunction with the International Biological Research Program--yeah, International Biological Research Program, which was divided up into various sections. One part was grasslands of North America. And the ALE Reserve is representative of sagebrush steppe vegetation in the Northwestern United States. There were other sites in New Mexico, Kansas, Colorado, Montana, North and South Dakota. And that lasted for several years. Then as time went on, I got older. And most of the work that I did was then associated with environmental impact statements. Even did the first environmental impact statement from what was the WPPSS plant at that time--the Basalt Waste Isolation Program. And I finally retired sometime. I don't know. Can't remember. I was 65 years old. But while I worked for the General Electric Company, I also taught school at an Army barracks down where the bus lot is today. And I taught the first class in plant ecology. And among my students over the years was Lester Eberhardt, Dick Fitzner, and Dennis Dauble, and Brett Tiller, president of Environmental Assessment Services. So for 30 years, I've taught as an adjunct professor at Washington State University in the Tri-Cities. Bauman: And where was that located again, when you first started teaching at the Army? Rickard: It was an Army barracks. That was the building that was the beginning of the WSU campus. One of my first students was Les Eberhardt, Dick Fitzner, which later were killed in an airplane accident in the Yakima Firing Center. But over the years, many people that worked at Hanford had taken my classes. Bauman: I want to go back, if we can, to when you were talking about your work in New Mexico, at the Nevada Test Site—it’s interesting. What sorts of things did you find in your research there? Rickard: Well, one of the first things that--these were small explosions—ten to 40 kiloton range, maybe up to 100. And they fired them one a week. Of course, when you watch one of these things from ten miles away, from a shot that's on a tower, maybe 500 or 600 feet off the ground, first thing you'd see is just a flash of light and then as the ball forms, it's just a whole mess of colors--purple, orange. And then it disappears and a whole lot of activity, just a massive amount of activity. And then things catch on fire. There's creosote bush, yucca trees a mile away just ignite like kitchen matches. And then the cloud develops and the big stem and the mushroom cloud. But the vegetation just disappears. It's just cooked. But even after a few summers, the surviving vegetation comes back. And the physicists at the test site that made these things, people from Los Alamos and Livermore, about the only thing they noticed that after a year or two after the explosion, that the ground was bare and then it would get green. And that was a big surprise to the physicists. But was quite common to plant ecologists, because the plant was Russian thistle. It would blow across the landscape, scatter seeds, and the first invading plant was Russian thistle. Just like at Hanford, where you plow up a field and leave it, what do you get? Russian thistle, and then a whole lot of other plants come in. And in time, it would recover because most of the radioactivity wasn't at the site, it was gone. It went someplace else. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Hmm. Interesting. And then your work in Alaska-- Rickard: Yes. Bauman: What sorts of things did you find in your research there? Rickard: Well, the main thing there was my colleague, Wayne Hanson, he was interested in the food chain of American Eskimos, and the fallout from nuclear weapons tests in the Pacific and Russia and various places. The northern hemisphere got most of the fallout, and in heavy fallout areas, with rain, like in Arctic Alaska. And the flora there was occupied--a great part of it was lichens and mosses, which were the food of caribou. Radioactive fallout comes down with rain and snow. And if you have a long lived plant, it keeps accumulating on the leaves until the leaves drop. And then they hit the ground and decompose, and cesium and strontium, which are about a half-life of 30 years, eventually get into the soil and then can recycle. In Alaska, the mosses and lichens, they don't die right away. And they keep accumulating radionuclides, and builds up so that it has very high levels of radionuclides as compared to trees that drop their leaves, grasses that die. And lichens are an important food of caribou in the wintertime. So they accumulated large burdens of radiocesium. And then the people, the diet of the American Indians and Eskimos of Alaska consisted of caribou meat. So the people had higher levels of radiocesium than people in the United States. That's a health physics concern, which is like Ron Kathren, that's their job. Bauman: Yeah. So you talked ALE a little bit, and your involvement in that. And you mentioned Benton County Commissioner. Do you remember a Benton County Commissioner who was-- Rickard: I don't remember his name, but he loved wildflowers. And at that time, the county was interested in building a road from Prosser to Vernita Bridge. They wanted to go through Snively Canyon. But the Department of Energy didn't think that was a good idea. But we had to convince the county that it wasn't a good idea. And the county commissioner, he decided that he ought to side with the Department of Energy. Bauman: So what was it about—why the desire to create ALE, I guess? What was it about the area that you thought was-- Rickard: Just the desire to create a natural area, probably dates back to the days of Theodore Roosevelt setting apart National Forests and National Parks. And we have nice National Parks in the country--Mount Rainier in Washington, and Olympic, all representing mostly forested areas. Rocky Mountain National Park, Yosemite. But nobody was interested in saving sagebrush, sagebrush grass habitats. This was primarily because sagebrush was not viewed as a useful resource. In fact, it was a pest. And rangeland managers thought it was a good idea to get rid of it. And when the first travelers crossed southern Idaho, they burned it because it provided fuel. But they hated it because it didn't provide any food for their cattle or sheep. So it was then regarded as a pest. And every Bureau of Land Management started campaigns to get rid of it. But before you got rid of it, we had to understand if it had any good. But this was a tough sell. You're not going to sell this, that keeping it has any benefits. But it's also wise if you have a resource that you can destroy it, or at least you ought to understand how it works. It's been here a long time, and learn the mechanics that has enabled it to stay this way. And the biggest threat to the shrub steppe was people. When Lewis and Clark came here, there was several resources in Washington State that people could use right away. One was the fish, one was the forest, the other was grass. So it's no surprise our first white people in Washington used the grass. They brought in cattle and sheep. Then came the magnificent discovery of the plow that now you plow up this stuff and raise crops. You could even raise more crops with irrigation. So it started to disappear. Half the sagebrush steppe in Washington disappeared by 1914. So this resource was getting smaller and smaller. So at least some of the people think that, well, maybe we ought not get rid of it all. And the Hanford site was an unusual opportunity to do this, because people who were farming were moved. This is the first time in history that a productive, cultivated land was converted to a lower use instead of a higher use. Higher uses are urban areas, places like Hanford, industry. Lower uses are cattle grazing. But the highest use of all is probably research and education. So here we have an opportunity where we had towns completely destroyed, abandoned productive fields that are now allowed to go revegetate by themselves. And they have. For the last 70 years it's been slowly changing back to what it would be, but it's been impeded by a lot of alien species that came with agriculture. Among these are cheatgrass, Russian thistle, and others. So it's important to have a place where you can just monitor the changes that take place over time. Bauman: I want to also ask you about something that you're involved in, the National Environmental Research Park? Rickard: Yes. Bauman: Could you explain that, what that was? Rickard: It was the national--all the DOE sites--not all, but most of them--belonged to the National Environmental Research Park. Oak Ridge, Savannah River, Hanford, Los Alamos. I think those are the--and Savannah River, yeah. And the purposes of the park was just to serve as places where we could do ecological research in different kinds of ecosystems. Bauman: So there are scientists at each of those places and parks? Rickard: There were scientists at each--it was never as popular at Hanford as it was with the other parks, partly because ALE Reserve had already been set aside acting as a National Environmental Research park before the other sites. Idaho is also a member. The Department of Energy, as far as I know, decided not to support that, but did support ALE. Bauman: We're going to go back to when you first came to work at Hanford, 1960. Had you been here before? Rickard: I was here--I went to Pullman in '53. And I'd been to Richland. Bauman: What were your first impressions of Richland, have you thought-- Rickard: Well at the time, I thought it was kind of--a lot of other places in Washington I'd rather be. [LAUGHTER] I think it was in August when Barbara and I--we got here in September. No, in '53, Barbara and I drove down from Pullman to Celilo Falls because I wanted to see Celilo Falls before it got covered up by a dam. We stopped in Pasco, and it was 112. [LAUGHTER] 112 degrees in the shade. We decided this wasn't a real nice place. Of course, we'd been at Indian Springs, Nevada, too. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So what about when you came back in 1960 then, what did you think of the place? Rickard: Well, I was impressed, really, mainly with the people. When I worked at the 100-F Area, the first couple of days I stood by the 100-F Reactor and thought that maybe in a few years that this reactor would be closed down and that there'd be Russian thistle growing around the edge of it. The N Reactor closed in 1965. So in the five years that I was here, the F Reactor wasn't working anymore. I thought that was probably a good thing. Bauman: So you worked initially for General Electric? Rickard: General Electric, yeah. Battelle came in '65. Then I joined Battelle, so I was one of the first people. Bauman: So did you work essentially sort of in different places all over the site? Rickard: I did. I was on the ALE reserve at the old Army camp. At the buildings there for ten years, perhaps. I was at 331 Building. When I retired I still worked as part time for Battelle—PNNL then. And in other years, I've worked with the--what was the—NORCUS program. It was a DOE-sponsored, program where faculty and students from the campus here, could be assigned to PNNL and work. And I did that for a number of years too. And many of the graduate students that we had came through the NORCUS program to PNNL. And we had students from all over the country that spent summers here at Hanford working on ALE. We had graduate students that worked on elk. The first studies of elk on the Hanford site were done by graduate students. They had people studying small mammals, bald eagles, deer, coyotes. I don't know how many graduate students from the University of Washington, Montana, Oregon State that over the years actually got master's and doctorate degrees through what was then NORCUS programs. Bauman: So it was a teaching place as well? Rickard: Teaching program too, yeah. Bauman: Wanted to ask you--President Kennedy visited this site in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. Do you have any memories, or were you there when he was here? Rickard: No. I remember when he was here, but I didn't go to the celebration. I think I was probably out of town or maybe assigned to someplace else in the '60s. Bauman: I wonder, of the different kinds of work that you did at Hanford, the different projects you worked on, what was sort of the most challenging thing that you worked on, and maybe the most rewarding part of your work? Rickard: Oh, I think probably the most rewarding part was the working with students, working with the actual people. And then I think the day that the Arid Land Reserve appeared on the map. Bauman: Sure. Rickard: That was probably the-- Bauman: And what about the most challenging aspect of your work--was anything that— Rickard: Oh, I never found them particularly challenging. I just took heart--I think one of the professors at Washington State told me, research is about 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. So, it's work, but it's enjoyable. And there's always some satisfaction in learning something you didn't know before, no matter how small it is. I don't imagine it's nearly as important as somebody that discovers a cure for cancer or heart disease or something. But it's pleasant when you can just discover something that you didn't know before. Bauman: So when you look back at your years working at Hanford, overall, how would you assess Hanford as a place to work? Rickard: I think it's been a good ride. I liked teaching, but I enjoyed the research more. I'm more of a researcher rather than a teacher. But I think they belong together. Bauman: Is there anything that--event or incident or something that happened when you were working at Hanford sort of stands out in your memory that-- Rickard: Oh, I think the thing that probably stands out, not in a good sense, but it was when Les Eberhardt--[EMOTIONAL] [VIDEO CUTS OFF] Rickard: I'm sorry about that. Bauman: That's fine. No problem at all. Okay. So I just have one or two more questions. One was, I wanted to ask you about--so you started in 1960. Rickard: Yes. Bauman: I wonder what sort of changes you saw take place at Hanford--either in technology or in what was being done. Rickard: Oh, there's been lots of advances since I started. Certainly computers, GPS, DNA analysis. All these things advanced field research. DNA is very useful now in plant taxonomy. A recent case about the White Bluffs bladderpod. Perhaps you know about the White Bluffs bladderpod, an endangered species. Argument whether it's a real species in danger or whether it's just a variety of a more common species of bladderpod. So I think probably Endangered Species Act has a great deal to do with the desire of people to protect rare endangered species. And certainly, the Arid Land Ecology Reserve does that very well. It preserves samples of native vegetation, and the impacts that people have had on the natural environment. Particularly in Native American people and their view of the environment is much different than the people that want to use the environment. So all these technological advances have helped answer these questions. Bauman: Obviously, at some point, the mission at Hanford shifted to cleanup from production. Did that start happening while you were working at Hanford? And if so, how did that impact what you were doing, or did it? Rickard: Well, Hanford has a long history of recognizing that particularly the production reactors were releasing radionuclides into the river and to the ground. And there was a great deal of concern of whether these radionuclides and associated toxic metals really had an impact on the river and the biota that use the river. Over the years, the number of Canada geese that nest on the islands has been well documented. During the years the reactor operations, geese populations increased. Populations of bald eagles increased. Populations of deer decreased. Populations of quail increased. Even though with the closure of the reactors, some animals have not increased. When you got people work--there was no hunting. There was no grazing. There was no farming. But some of the animals continued to go down. Two of these--one was the sage grouse. Another one was the sage sparrow. These animals, the birds, depend upon sagebrush. Sage grouse eat sagebrush. Sage sparrows, they nest in sagebrush. Although you can destroy sagebrush by plowing or burning, burning has always been a part of the shrub steppe. It always takes out the shrubs. In time, the shrubs comes back. It burns, the shrubs disappear. And if the area is very large, the amount of fire is very small. So that there are substantial populations of sage sparrows and sage grouse that as the sagebrush returns by itself, they move back. Got down to the point where you have a small amount of sagebrush and if it burns, it takes years to come back. And even though at Hanford, it wasn't destroyed by farming anymore, fires have been a tremendous impact. So the number of acres of mature sagebrush today is very small. Not because it's been plowed, but simply because we had a lot of wildfires. And the sage grouse disappeared in 1960. The sage sparrow is nearly there now. So the sage grouse is now up for consideration to be an endangered species. It might be a good idea to restore sagebrush to Hanford, or sage grouse to Hanford by planting sagebrush. Bauman: So I guess one last question then. In your years of studying the ecology of the area here, what was sort of the most significant impact of the Hanford site on the ecology of the area? Rickard: Well, land use on the Hanford site, it's been different. It's different. There's no place else in Washington that ever supported plutonium production. It's the only place where productive land has ever been stopped agriculturally. I think it's important just for us to keep watching and monitoring and reporting this as time goes by. I think that's the future of it. It'll be cleaned up. But we've got to decide what to do next. And in my opinion, I think probably that if we were really interested in saving sage grouse, for example, on the Hanford site, that the best use would be a commercial nuclear power plant. Occupy a very small area. Develop the rest of the land back to habitat suitable for sage sparrows and sage grouse, and use it for recreational purposes. I don't think that the public is going to go for farming or things like that. So a combination of industrial facilities with wide areas of natural habitat would be the most likely use. That's my opinion. Bauman: Well, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would like to discuss, or anything I haven't asked you about? Rickard: I think I'm pretty well exhausted. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Well I, want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences. Rickard: Well, I certainly appreciate your help here. Bauman: Thank you very much. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:32 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 194 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100-F Area Reactor N Reactor F Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1960-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1960-? Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Davis, Jerry Hanson, Wayne Watson, Don Nakatani, Roy Bustad, Leo Hungate, Frank Parker, Herb Kathren, Ron Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Rickard Description An account of the resource An interview with Bill Rickard conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-12-4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 100-F Area Reactor F Reactor General Electric N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0bbdf6a73347ae16117663fa3c0f3544.jpg 0a7fbec0d7b9cdbbbc594862f0810905 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4c1debbbefc16cc98b17e2f1e99f32ef.mp4 73c4bc36b7c80cbf73578d12b86dd627 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip "Rick" Riccobuono Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Northwest Public Television | Riccobuono_Philip_Rick </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. We're ready to get going. So we'll get started. So first we could just have you say your name and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Philip Riccobuono: The last name is Riccobuono. R-I-C-C-O-B-U-O-N-O. And it's pronounced Riccobuono, but the "u" is really silent. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Okay. And your first name is Phillip, but you go by Rick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Phillip, and I go by Rick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And my name is Bob Bauman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Is it Don? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Bob. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Bob, that’s right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And today's date is November 6 of 2013, and we're conducting the interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-cities. So let's start by just having you talk about what brought you to Hanford. When did you arrive? Why did you come here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay. I arrived here on March 9th, 1950. I was in an army convoy that brought me from Fort Lewis to here. And at that time the Pass was only two lanes. And I had no idea where the heck I was going. None. They said Richland, Washington. And we left from Fort Lewis. And it was a 24-hour trip by Army convoy. It was a cold, cold place. When we'd come by Benton City, and we could look off to the lights—and I was in the lead Jeep in the convoy with our captain. And he looked over there, and he says, see those lights? [INAUDIBLE] And I said, yeah. And he says, that's where we're going. And at that time I said to myself, oh God, why did you bring me here? And I've been so grateful for him for doing it and bringing me here. And that's when we arrived and we went into the barracks. And then they told us that the next day they would take us out to the forward area. And we had no idea where that was. We knew there were nuclear reactors out. That was about the only thing they said. So we went out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how long had you been at Fort Lewis? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: We spent Fort Lewis over Christmas. It was about three months. We arrived in--let's see--in about October, we left Fort Bliss, Texas by train. We had to load up our 120 millimeter guns that we used for the AAA battalion to guard this place at Hanford, which we didn't know anything about. And we took all our gun training there in Fort Bliss, Texas. And then when we got done, they said, well, we're going to go to the state of Washington to Fort Lewis. And we did that. Stayed there for three months over the holiday, Christmas holiday. And we were all homesick. Cold and snow. And then on March 9th--actually March 8th, they said we're going to go on a convoy, and we're going to go to Richland. And it's going to take us at least 20 to 24 hours because we had a convoy of trucks and a whole battalion of the 519 AAA Brigade was going there. And I was a radio man so I rode up front with the captain. And it was a cool trip. Very slow. Convoy speed is only 30 miles an hour. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And how old were you at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: At that time I was 19--18. I joined the service when I was 17 to get an education, because I had to go to work when I was 13. And I never went to high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So when you went to Fort Lewis, was that the first time you had sort of been on the west coast? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: [LAUGHTER] When we just got out of New Jersey was the first time I had been out West. I spent all my life there and the Bronx, New York. And going over to Fort Dix was quite an experience. And they decided to send us to Fort Bliss, Texas for basic. I had no idea that they were going to put me in the artillery. And they did, after our basic training. And then they told us about—the 120 millimeter artillery gun is the first of its kind that we've ever had on the ground, the largest artillery gun that they made. It was never used in war, because it was made later. And to give you an idea of just how big it was, if you want to know that information. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: It takes a shell and a projectile. The projectile weighs 50 pounds, and the shell weighs 52 pounds. When we first seen them back in Fort Bliss, Texas, we're looking at this, and I said, I hate to see the noise this thing is going to make when it fires. And they explained to us it'll shoot out over 100 feet. It is real loud. And they taught us how to do that. But I got assigned to the communications. That's why I was in the Jeep, I told you, in the convoy because I had to operate the radio. And that's why we come here. We had our gun training and came out here, and our mission was to guard the reactors. And they would put us in strategic places. There was only four batteries of guns, each containing four guns. And I was in C of 518. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And so where on the site was that then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The first site, if you're familiar with where the reactors are— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: D and DR Reactor. DR is the one that faces the river, which is still about, probably maybe a quarter of a mile. We were stationed between the reactor and the river. And there was a farmhouse from the original people, farmers that lived there. And we set up our command post there. Set up our four guns, that was our primary set up. And that took us a while. And that's where we were stationed in communication with the other three batteries that were out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how many men was that then at each of the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Well, to each battery it's approximately 115 to 118 if you're at full force. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Okay. And so there was a--you used a farmhouse that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, it was the original house where the farmers lived that they had to evacuate. I felt sorry for those poor people. They had beautiful homes. This was a nice home, and it was still in good condition. And so our captain of the battery—we set up our communications, which they called the command post there in that building. And that's where we maintained the radio and switchboard. So at that time, we have to keep in communications by radio because we had no landlines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And did you use that the whole time that you were stationed out there, used the farmhouse? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: No, we moved to several sites. After we left there, we moved to the site of F Reactor. Now if you—say you're coming from the south where the reactors and river would be on your right side, it would be the first reactor that you come to. On the road there, we made a left there, in the area of F Reactor. Went about—200 yards is the railroad—we went over the railroad tracks and then set up camp in that area. And that's where we stayed pretty much the other half of the time. We spent over a year, year and a half at DR and then the next time we spent, until I got discharged, was at that communication area. In fact, since then a lot of times I've taken people to the original site in the DR area to show them where our site was. In fact, our baseball field is still there. Actually, we played softball. And the guys, they are just amazed. You mean, that was there 50 years ago? I said, it's still is there! And I showed it to them. But it was--that was our site. We lived in tents. It was always dirty. And as I was telling Dave when he first interviewed me. He asked me how long do we stay out and how we would set up. And the object was to keep you out there three months. The fourth month, the whole battery would get leave into town. So they always maintained three gun sites for protection. That was the plan. And I hated it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: You hated being out there for three months. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Well, yeah. Because you don't have any facilities at all. I mean, to go to the bathroom, you dig a trench out there. To take a bath—you'd die laughing—we used wheelbarrows. Put water in wheelbarrows and take our bath. [LAUGHTER] One time, a friend of mine when we first got there, he was in the wheelbarrow. Now, you got to picture this maybe 250-pound guy sitting in the wheelbarrow. There was no room for water. We laughed. And this is how we bathed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: What about food? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Food, we had our own mess hall and everything, which was transferred out there. And this was all—we had a mess tent, plus our tents that we lived in and stayed in. And all we did was maintain the guns all day long, clean them. What else could you do? And it was real hot. In the first summer in the DR area, we craved ice water. We craved cold water. Now, the patrolmen used to always come by the sites and visit us and talk with us. And they knew what we needed. So they said, give us your canteens. And we gave them a bunch of canteens, and they would take it back to their post and fill it up with ice water. Just a good dose of ice, and brought us back the ice water. That was really a treat. But that's what we did. You did your own laundry out there. You washed your own clothes out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: How did you do your laundry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Well, the same thing. We'd take a bucket of water and just put soap and water and then washed them and hung them up and everything. They showed us how to do, and we did it. And it was all dirty and dusty. It was not the army I expected to be in. In fact, I was out in the service for three years, nine months. I think I only slept in a barracks three months of it. In Fort Lewis was the only time--that's the only time I ever had a barracks situation. But, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So, you said, it sounds like for the most part you were maintaining the guns. That was really the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, that was the main reason. That was our mission. At that time, they had a no-fly zone over the area. No one could fly over the area. What they did do was—if you're interested in it—is that they used to have practice run from bombing from the Air Force coming to Hanford. And our job was to detect them, because we were there 24/7—and that's a phrase they never used at that time. And when they flew here, they would fly here sometimes 2,000 miles or 1,000 miles, the long range bombers, without us knowing it. And we had to find out. We had to detect them. And I'm proud to say that we did most of the time with our radar and our outpost and everything. And they did a lot of that just to practice on to make sure we were on the ball. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Were there ever any incidents where someone flew over who wasn't supposed to fly over? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Oh, yes. I've heard about that. They were watching on radar from the army bases around. Yes. From Fort Lewis especially. We've never really had an incident where I can think of where somebody actually flew over the reactors. Even the jets, you would see the contrail north or south, but never directly over. It was just no-fly zone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So I would imagine a lot of the time you're doing, taking care of the guns, and there's probably some time where there's really not much going on. How did you pass the time, I guess? Would you stay entertained? Or playing softball, I guess? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: It was kind of fun what we did a lot of times. Sometimes—the worst times was Christmas to spend out there. And we had a ukulele. We would go out there and sing on the ukulele. Besides that. And playing baseball on our time off, even with the officers. I mean, they were just as bored as we were. And they entertained us that way in the day time. But we didn't have any telephones--there were no cell phones--where we could communicate with the people that we knew in Richland. So mainly what we did was maintained guns, did a lot of practice all the time to see that we were on the ball and doing the right thing. And being in communications, it was my job after I became Communications Sergeant to maintain communication by telephone. You had to use landlines between each gun with the radar section. And they did have a scope for an observer to make sure that we were on target. Now, radar was just introduced at that time. And if you're interested, I could tell you how they did it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay. What they did was--a 120 millimeter I think has a--it travels 3,300 feet a second. And it moves pretty fast. The object of it—the projectile was set to go off in mid-air. It doesn't hit a target. It explodes with a timer. It has the capacity to kill anything within 35 feet radius of that projectile. So the object was for the four guns to fire within a 70-foot radius. So anything in that zone was destroyed. But in order to accomplish this, they had to be synchronized to fire at the same millisecond, at the same time, and they did. And they would hit the target every time. The first time. They were really good. It was really interesting how they did it. They'd load the projectile in first in the top portion of a 120 millimeter. To accomplish this--that they fire at the same second and that are timed exactly alike on all four guns—they had to set the timer on the projectile. So in my time when they had training, I used to go out there on the gun and help load. Put the projectile in first. Now the gun--and I think there's about four or five people--four people there—had to set that projectile before we fired. So actually it would be in sequence with the other three that would go off. And to do this, they would get the command to set the timer, and all four guns had to set the timer at the same time, load it, and fire at his command. It was really something to see. I enjoyed watching it. I enjoyed helping loading it. But boy, oh boy. That's why I’m wearing hearing aids today is because of that. And the only time they ever fired them at Hanford was one time in almost three years that I was there, less than three years. Just for settling rounds so the guns would set inside. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: To give you an idea of what they did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how many guns were at each of the sites? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: It was four guns at each side, and we had four sites. Then they brought in another battalion of the 518 and 519 were brought in together. So they wound up with eight sites. And they were all in communication with each other. And they had just one landline that we put in between each other and the command post in North Richland. And we never had radio contact with North Richland, our command post, which they ran the whole thing from downtown North Richland, out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And you worked at the sites by DR-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Our site was by D and DR. I do know where the other sites were. They had one at the Two East Area near PUREX and where the Vit plant is. And then you had one site behind there near 240. We had another site there by the river between K Area and that area. And when we go in town and left just a minimum crew, sometimes you worked there as a minimum crew. You would have to travel to the other sites with the few men that we had for our food. And that's how they did it while the rest of the 100 people went in town and had R & R for a week—for a month actually. And that was the procedure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So I was going to ask you about that part, too. You said--so you would be on for three months and then you'd sort of have a month leave. So, during that month you just go into Richland, and I mean, and what was Richland like at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Richland was very, very small at the time. And I could still remember my first time that I had time off. If you could figure where North Richland is now, very far on top of the hill there--yeah, go by the school, and you go up the hill here? Off to the left were dorms—which two people could live in in those times. It was about two blocks in. Those dorms went from here all the way to the highway. The Bypass Highway, the main, where they meet. But anyway, we walked here to George Washington Way, that two, three blocks to that corner up on top. We were wearing uniform--me and my best friend--and we stood there, and we were looking to hitchhike, but we didn't have to. The first car that came by stopped. And it was a husband and wife and they had their daughter with them. And they said, are you soldiers looking for a ride into town? I said, yes. So they gave us a ride into town where they live. And I still remember their names. Their names were McCormick. And until the day they passed away 30 years later, I still knew them. That's how friendly the people were. Not only Richland. All three towns. And they--what they would do, the people—would invite the GIs on holidays if they were in the area to their homes. They were very friendly. Very friendly. Because being 18 years old, we were more interested in the high school girls. [LAUGHTER] But the town of Richland, Kennewick and Pasco, they accepted us very, very well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And did most people know what you're doing at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Oh, they knew we were with the artillery, and they knew we were out their guarding the plants, but we had no idea how those plants worked, how they did it. The closest we was is by DR, the first time when I told you about the house. That was within stone's throw. That's about as close. And then later on, the one on top of the hill by PUREX, at that time—if you're familiar with the process, the fuel elements had to be dissolved. When they dissolve them, they would exhaust it through those big, high stacks that you see. And they would use nitric acid. We didn't know this at the time, but we would see that smoke. A lot of times was light white. But when they were dissolving, they would actually turned rusted color. And this is how they exhaust it. And that's about the only thing we knew. We never did know why it changed colors. Not until after I went to work there. But that's--they didn't tell us any of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So as young men on leave, were there things to do in a small town--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, a lot of times. What we used to do, like if we had that week, but we still had to have a three-day pass to leave, and we still had a post there to stay in. And the mess hall was still on the main street there—that block that's still there. And we ate there, and we ran to a lot of training. They utilized that time in training and updating us on the training and what was going on. We’d go to classes. And then I--the Korean War broke out, if you want to know about that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: When the Korean War broke out, I was scheduled to be discharged in January. My enlistment was up for three years. But I couldn't. I would--all leaves and furloughs and discharges were frozen because of the war. General Mark Clark was the leader of the West Coast. He's a pretty famous guy. And now we're under a different mode out here. We were worried about in case what would happen if they would have ever try and bomb the Hanford, we didn't know. And they didn't want to lose the personnel that were there that had the experience, like I did, from the beginning and a lot of us did. They kept us there. As the war progressed, a lot of us did volunteer. I was one to volunteer because I was tired of being out there for over two years and living in a tent. If I'm going to live there that way, why not help the country? So I volunteered to go to Korea. It was three of us that did. But we went to Fort Lewis, and they rejected us and sent us back. And we never knew why until years, many years later why they rejected us. We had a reunion, our 50th year reunion—it was that long before we found out! Our 50 year Hanford reunion, we invited our officers that had been here a time that had retired. And one general who was still in command of the west coast came to it. And he said the reason why--that was my question. Why were we turned down? Why was I turned down? I mean, I was healthy enough to go to combat. Because I was really stupid, too, for volunteering. [LAUGHTER] Not really. But anyway, he told us because if we ever got captured by the Koreans, they would torture us to the point that we would tell them the sites. We would know all the sites, and that's what they would want to know. So, and you would give them that information, because that's what they would do to you. And that's why we didn't go, and weren’t unable to go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So you were sent back here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Sent me back here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Until when and how long were you still stationed here then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah, I was stationed here. They extended me for nine months, from January to September. And President—at that time, it was Harry Truman. And he gave us an extension. But during that nine month period, I met my wife. So maybe it was meant to be. Remember I said, Oh, God, why did you send me here? Well, I think he knew what he was doing. I got to meet my wife. We decided to get married whenever that would be. Because I didn't want to get married while I was there. I made that decision to stay here and go to work here. But I did have a very big problem. In the beginning of the conversation I told you that I didn't even go to high school. Minimum education was a high school diploma. And I did not have one. So I didn't know what to do yet. To get a GED diploma you had to have--you had to be 21 for the state of New York. So I went to our recreational captain. His name was Reeves, I'll never forget. Bless that guy. I told him I had a problem and that I wanted to get married, but to go to work here, I had to have a high school diploma. He says, we'll fix you up on that. I says, okay. He says, when do you get discharged? I says, I don't know, but they keep telling us in the fall. He says, well, you're going to get one chance at a test because after that, if you fail the test you would have to wait another year. But you're going to get discharged. So we're going to get it right the first time. Consists of five tests and each takes about an hour. Wow. But he said, don't worry about it. He says, I'll get you to study all these things and everything and you'll be ready for the test. And I says, I got a problem with that, too. He was really perplexed. He says, why? I says, I don't know how to study. And he gave me the funniest look. He says, you don't? I said, no. I says, I never went to high school. He says, okay. He said, we'll take care of that part. I'll teach you how to study. And he did. He babysat me for the next two months, and I passed the test, got my GED, wound up going to work but that took a little time because I was uneducated. And we got married, and I had no job. My poor wife was working. And it was tough. I kept going to the employment office there for General Electric, which was running the plants at that time. They said, we have nothing for you. There's nothing going on. And I'd bug them. I’d go back every week or two. And finally, in the first part of December, I says, hey. You know, there's got to be something. I said, I'll take anything. He says, no, we don't have anything. And then he said, well, we do have one job, but you don't want that. I said, what is it? He says, washing clothes in the laundry. I says, I'll take it. He said, you will? I says, hey, I just got married. I can't find a job. I will do anything just to get to go to work at Hanford because then maybe once I get in I could transfer. And he says, okay. And I did. And that's how I got started. And I worked for a year, and I transferred out. That's another story. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So did your wife grow up here or was she just here working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: She grew up in Prosser. She was born there in Prosser, went to school in Wapato and graduated from Wapato and became—went to secretarial school and became a secretary and went to work here. And that's how I met her. I met her in town. The only really, what they call a hang out in town was the old mart. It was kind of like a big coffee house, and everybody would gather there. And that's where I met her. They--the girls lived in dorms. They didn't have housing, and they worked out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So you said you--so what was the frame here when you ended your service with the army and then you got the job with the laundry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: How long did it take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Or what time—year are we talking about roughly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: December, just two weeks before Christmas. I got hired in 1952. And then I worked there for 38 years and got September 22nd. And our anniversary was the 26th in September. I had a lot of things happening. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So your first job was working in the laundry. Where was the laundry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The laundry was in Two West Area. Soon as you came in through the gate, it was off to the left. We still-I worked there a year and didn't know. I did see--I was wondering what this guy did. He came in to survey laundry bags that came in. And I asked him. I saw him with this thing. I didn't know what it was. Of course, it was a Geiger counter, but I didn't know that. And he was going over these bags. I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm surveying to see if they're contaminated. And I says, oh. I said, contaminated from what? And then he looked at me kind of funny. He says, well from radioactive contamination. That's waste. I says, oh. I says, and that's your job? Yeah. I said, how do I become one of those? What are you called? He said, radiation monitor. I said, wow. I said, that sounds like an interesting. He says, it is. And I never forgot what he did. I said, in other words, they can't do anything without you. He said, that's right. So I put in for it. And I got turned down. The answer was no. But I did go into engineering assistant in metallurgy, which was the fuel elements that they put in there. I did do that work. And then, finally, I met someone doing that work. It was the first time I ever went into a reactor. What we did in that job was to inspect the fuel prior to radiation and then underwater in the basin behind—in the big reactor building. We worked from 30 feet away, put it on a cradle, and inspected that same fuel element so that the engineers could see what the difference. Because when it ruptured it, the reactor would have to go down because uranium is canned to stop that from happening. And when that ruptures, it increased—it becomes contaminating, contaminates the cooling water. And, therefore, they had to divert it to a crib. When that happened and reactors go down. So they were assigned, the metallurgists, to do this to stop this, to find out why they were rupturing. And that's how I got a job as an assistant. It was a nothing really job, but it was kind of interesting. But it was done in the rear face of the reactor where the fuel element was discharged. There again, people would come by and ask us what we were doing. So I told them. I said, we are inspecting the fuel just like I just told you. And this one gentleman came by. And he says, could you explain to me what you're doing? I said, sure. Come on over here. I said, you got to put on a lab coat, the minimum protective clothing, and look down the periscope to see the element and see what it looks like after it's been irradiated. And he looked at that, and he says, oh, that's what they look like up close. And I said, yeah. And I write the description on it, what it looks like after irradiation, the same one that I inspected prior to irradiation. He says, wow. And I says, yeah, the engineers use that information to stop—see what causes ruptures, so they can make them better so they don't rupture and the reactors could run. He said, wow. So every day he came by. Then he asked me, he says, do you enjoy your work? I says, it's fine, but it's not really what I would like to do. He said, what would you like to do? And I said, you know those guys that go around with the Geiger counters and check for contamination of radiation. He said, you mean radiation monitoring? And I said, yeah. I said, I would like to become one of those. He said, you do? I said, yeah. He says, okay. That's all he said. This was the beginning of the week. He comes there again on Friday, and he said, Rick. He says, Monday I want you to report to this here place and gave me the address and where it was at. And I looked at him. I said, what for? He says, they're starting the training class for radiation monitors, and it would take a period of 18 months. He says, you want to become one. You are one, but you have to go to training. It takes 18 months, and if you don't pass, you're out. So you have to do it. I looked at him, and I said, how did you do that? He goes, well, I ought to. I'm the supervisor of it. I'm the director of the whole thing. [LAUGHTER] Needless to say, ‘til the time in my whole career, I had him to thank to where I progressed in the field of radiation. I found out so many things about it. I could keep you here for hours. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: What was his name? Who was that? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I think his name was Preston. I'm not sure. Because then I didn't get to know him. I didn't get out very often to see him, to say thank you. But he got me in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So I wanted to ask you. So which reactors did you work at? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: All of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I was in B Reactor. And we celebrated our--1962. We reached a milestone in the year 1962. And we held a—we had a little celebration of it. And safety. We had an excellent—zero, no safety accidents, no nothing. And we had a little party for that. In fact, the picture is still there that day that I--that was with me when we had a little scare. And that was in B Reactor, which is--you know what it is today? In fact, I finally got to take my wife out there and showed her what I did. She was just--you know, like you walk through the door and all of a sudden you see this reactor. You've seen B reactor. Okay. It is breathtaking. I wanted to take her around to my office and to the basements and tell her exactly what I was doing. But some of the monitors that were there had remembered me where I helped train some years ago. And they said, we know who you are. So B Reactor was one of them. We only had one that would be on swing shift and graveyard. There was only one assigned there to a crew in each reactor. See? So you are responsible--it's the reason why I enjoyed radiation monitoring—you're responsible for all the work that goes on for the safety of the people to go in there and not—you had to go with them, set the dose rates, airborne contamination, and all that. I loved my job. It was interesting. And this is what we did. And we had a small crew of about maybe 12. But I enjoyed the job because it had substance and responsibility. And you become like a family. Working together, swing, graveyard, and the different projects that come up that you had to do during shutdowns. And they would have crews to come in to help discharge the metal, which was called, what they call a supplemental crew. And so, essentially I worked on all the reactors where they needed. And I did have over ten years. It was very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Did you have to wear special protective clothing at all when you guys would monitor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: All the time. We set the standards. That was my job. Set the standards of you say you want to go into zone and do this, I have to ask you why. You had to have a reason when you go into the radiation zone. Well, we're going to do this, and we're going to do that. Okay. This is what you have to wear. You have to be trained in the uses of how to dress and undress in the zone. And we also would send them in to keep time if they've had higher readings and levels and how long you could stay there. Now, they also have changed the program where they trained all the people to do that. But it was my job, essentially, to take care of them. And it was very difficult at first because I was pretty young. I was in like my mid-20s, and then you have maintenance people and other people, that are 40, 50 years old. And you had to be very careful how you handled people. And I was told that that was my biggest asset, to be able to communicate with people. Because you're a service group. And we had to take them into the zone. And a lot of them don't like when a young kid does and tell them this. But you soon learn that, you know, we had to do it because that's your job, and they understood. Once they knew you, they were over the hump. It was interesting. I loved my job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: And you said you did that for about ten years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Then we went to separate—they were shutting down the reactors. '65, that year, and when they shut down the reactors, I was going to be out of a job. And the plant manager, and his name was Roy Dunn, he came up to me and called me in the office. And he says, Rick. He says, you've got to get out of here. They're going to shut this down maybe in a year, two years. But we are a different plant. We want to go where you're going to have a job. And I said, where would that be? He said, separations. The tank farms, which you already know about. Without that there, you wouldn't have anybody out there. [LAUGHTER] And so I transferred over there. And when I did, it was a different world because of—in the reactors, you deal with gamma, beta, neutron radiation and beta contamination. But you also have alpha radiation, which is produced only after this fuel element has been irradiated and separated to get Pu-239 creating this alpha. And I had no experience with alpha. Piece of Kleenex. If you had, say, a spot of alpha contamination, as an example. If you put a piece of Kleenex over, it would cover and you couldn't detect it unless it was really high. Then it would emit gamma. Then you could detect it. But that was a rare case. Most of the time, you couldn't detect. And you had to use certain instruments for alpha. And that's what we had to learn in separation portion of that. And that's a whole new ball game from the reactor. It's amazing. Only a government could make plutonium. It was so complicated. So complicated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: So how long were you over there then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: From '65 to the time I became--until I retired. In my last five years. The building--are you familiar with the PFP plant? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I've never worked there. And being in radiation monitoring that long, I got promoted into management. That was the building that they assigned me to, the most visible building in the world. And that was a lot of fun. You know, it was challenging. Because they're making the final product there. They’re taking a liquid and solidifying for transportation into the fuel element that they want, which is the ammunition for the atomic bomb. And that was my last five years in management there. We did fine. We had a lot of incidents. Like I said, I could talk to you for hours on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Are there any that really stand out? Any incidents that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah, you want to share one of them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Two of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Sure. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The one I want to share with you is in my last year in reactors, and it was in--they ran 24/7. Because we had to make plutonium. They never shut them down unless they had to. All of a sudden, we're going to shut this down for the weekend. My boss comes up to me. He says, I've got a job for you for the weekend. He said, you're going to be working with these personnel, and we're going to remove a fuel element from the side of the reactor. Picture the reactor as a big box. All the elements go out front-back. But this one came in through the side. He said, we're going to remove a fuel element. I want you to take care of that job. I says, okay. I didn't think much of it at the time, but it was the Navy that was doing it. So, I got to meet all these officers. And I says, what are you going to do? What's your plan? And they showed me, explained to me. They used a bowling ball type of a cask, which is about half of the size. It had to fit on an 18-wheel flatbed. But it was about 15 feet up and this one little whole that was only about six inches in diameter or less, sideways. The object was to go send a cable into the cast, into the reactor, hook onto the fuel element, bring it out. But it would be exposed to air about six to ten inches, and in that time, it would release a high level of radiation. And I was there to make sure that we were far enough and to an exposure level that we were able to work with this. We got it done. We were about approximately 100 feet away. And when that came out, it was--it couldn't be more than about 20 seconds to go through by that space and then into cask, then the readings would subside down. They would subside to less than about five, which is workable, so they can transport it. We did. We got done with the job. I think it was about three of them that we got to do. And it took us two ways to do it. We got invited down afterwards for a party at--it used to be called the Desert Inn, that big hotel here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Red Lion. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The Red Lion. No. Is that the one in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Yeah. The Red Lion. Right. So we went over there, and, he says you're always asking me. He said, what we're doing and what it's for. And he says, and I couldn't tell you. And I said, that's right. So during the party, you know, we had dinner and everything. He comes over to me. He hands me the telephone. He says, it's for you. I had no idea who the hell is on the other of that. I got the phone. I said, hello? He said, I'm Admiral Rickover. I said, Admiral Rickover? You mean, you're the godfather of the Navy--of nuclear ships. He said, that's me. He said, I just wanted to thank you. He said, you've done a great job with the men. They all told me what you did. And I just want to personally say hello to you. And he said, I know you had a question, but why. I said, yes, I do. He said, well, I can't tell you why. He says, but you’ll get the answer in about three months. I said, how? He said, just read the newspaper. And then he says, pat yourself on the back for something that you helped do. That was the end of the conversation. I had no idea why. No idea. And you listening to me are probably wondering what it was. I get up one morning, read the paper. The Nautilus submarine went under the North Pole for the first voyage ever. Because of nuclear power, it could stay underwater that long. Where was it the nuclear power fuel elements came from? Come from Hanford. So now I knew. I was real thrilled about that. And I hardly couldn't believe it. But that was one of the best. I've been on a lot of dirty ones there with contamination. But that was the number one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Any other stories you want—any incidents that really stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay, we up one morning there. And this is after we went into separations away from the reactors, years later. I get up, and my wife says, they had an explosion at Hanford. I said, what? They said, that's all over the news. It's on national news. I says, they can't have an explosion with the--that's an atomic explosion. I said, that can't be done. They could have what they call a criticality. You're familiar with the criticality? They could have that, but they can't have an explosion as such. So watch the news. I got up and went, oh, sure. What had happened was that they had an explosion. This man got highly contaminated and operated. Very highly contaminated, and they were going to send him to the hospital. But they didn't know. But we didn't know. I called some of my fellow workers, and they were telling me. I was working on the swing shift, the 4:00 to 12:00 shift. So all that morning, I'm listening to that, and the news is going on. And I'm working at B Plant, which is a different separation plant. This happened in the 234-5 building, PFP plant, and I had not been there. So that's what I found out. What had happened was that this operator was working in there, and they had--it was a steam compressor of sorts that they got over pressurized, and the pipe did explode. And in doing so, it wasn't a big--it was just enough to break the windows of gloveboxes that they work in. And when it did that, he had the right protective clothing on, but it hit him in the face. See? And it went through, and he got all highly contaminated from the head down. So what they--I go to work at 4:00. Different area, East and West. I'm in the East Area. And here was my boss standing there. The plant manager standing there. And they says, we want to talk to you. So we talked. My boss said to me—and he is long gone, his name was Bernie Cyrusek. He was our big head honcho, what a wonderful man. He said, here's what I want you to do. He said, you're going to go downtown. They're going to use that new decontamination building. The operator that got contaminated, his name was McCluskey. We want to get that building cleaned up tonight, on the rest of the swing shift and during the night on graveyard by 8:00 in the morning so his family could visit him. You know, your grandfather, your husband. His family wanted to see them. And so I'm going to send you down there. I said, why me? He gave me the simple answer. Because I'm telling you to do it. They're not familiar with alpha contamination, now—remember what I was telling you about alpha? They were working in the 300 Area. They did not deal with alpha contamination, and they did not know what to do. So they had to have experienced people. The ones that went in there brought him in an ambulance and everything. And to make a long time short, we had to go down there. And they briefed us to take two operators with you to clean up the room. And the president of our company, he said, we want you to stay so far away from that building because it's going to have people from the press there. So we're going to wait 'til dark, and then you're going to come around the back of the building. And I said, whoa, whoa. Stop. And he looked at me, and he said, what? I said, you want us to do a job, right? Now you want to handcuff me. You take care of the press. But let us do our job. We're going to do it the way we have to do it. And you're back there. If you think you're too close, you move him back. But we're not going to wait 'til dark, a certain time. We're going to do it. Once we start, we have to go and do it. He looked at me, he said, okay. So they did. And we went in there. And the biggest problem we had: the nurses. They had to administer medicine to him. We got all dressed up, two layers of clothing and supplied air to go in the room. The room is about the size of this room. It's like a part--like watching a science fiction movie, the dark, the lights. Here's a man laying on a gurney. He's bare from the waist up to his head. He's just laying there. And he's got two white pieces of gauze covering his eyes. And the rest of him was bare. The problem was that he got contamination into his eyes. So they were administering water solution to kind of keep flushing his eyes out. That's, you know, the doctors have to be careful there. Of course, it would be puffed up. And he was laying on the gurney. And this nurse was sitting there. Two pairs of cover up. The temperature in there is 104 because they had to shut off—that's the first thing we did was shut off the air contamination. We could not expose airborne contamination to the atmosphere. So we had to shut the air conditioning off. That was the first thing we did. And I looked at that. Like I said, I thought there's a scene from a science fiction movie. Went over there, to the eyes. There's a table there. Some of the men in radiation monitoring were not familiar with how to work with alpha contamination. Okay. You cannot reuse a lot of the stuff, what the doctors were using. And they had all their instruments on the table. So we took the bag and put a box, emptied it out, and just cleaned it out and dumped it in there. And the guy said, what are you doing that for? I said, would you like a doctor to work on you with contaminated tools? No. He said, use new ones. And that's what we did. We got it cleaned up. So we're working back and forth. Every two hours, we take a break and go outside. So I asked them, I says, the nurses. Where are they, the ones that were here during the daytime? I said, are they still here? They said, no. We sent them home. You did? And I said, who surveyed them? He said, the guys did. And I said, were they naked when you surveyed them? They said, of course not. I said, well then you better bring them back, and you better go check the houses. Remember what I told you about that tissue? I said, they've got a bra on. They've got their panties on. I says, how do you know they didn't contaminated under their bra? Any of that. I said, that happens. It happens all the time out at work sometimes you get contaminated in your shorts. So you have to be very careful. It can come back and bite you [INAUDIBLE]. If they say that you got contaminated during incident because you didn't do your job right. He said, well, what would you do? I said, well, right now in the midst of training are some females, the first ones ever to do our job. I said, call them. They know have to survey. And take them with you to their homes and everything to make sure everything's clean. So that's what they did. They got them all checked out. By the grace of God, they did not get contaminated under their bra, to the skin, and we did it the right way. And they were very pleased. They had never thought about that. Well, you know, when you do it as often as I had, I knew what to do. And we did. And we got it done. 8:00, his family went in there. I was ready to go home. We got it cleaned up. We got him cleaned enough so his family could visit. They had to wear protective clothing, but we got it so that the air samples were down below limits so there was nothing exposed to the air. That was my second biggest incident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you. You had at least a few different jobs working in different areas. Did you have a job that was the most challenging or one that was the sort of most rewarding in your years working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: That one there was very rewarding. Because the room was highly contaminated with alpha. It was bad. I mean everything that we had to throw away to be sure and go back and re-clean it and re-clean. We worked on it pretty close to 16 hours. And the two same operators in there. And then we had to bring in the other operators to help us to help them. But they had to do it certain ways because, like I said, they weren't familiar with alpha contamination. Radiation was not a factor, was not a factor at all. See, a lot of people don't know the difference between contamination and radiation. So it was not a factor. You could work there as long as you wanted. But contamination was terrible. And we got it done. And so it was very rewarding to get that and to know that his family got to visit him. And you know, I never got to see this guy or talk to him. But they were very grateful. That was rewarding. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: How about the most challenging work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: The challenging part of it was getting it done in the timeframe and teaching the others. And especially the--when I found out that the women went home. I was worried about that. Because nurses have to do their job when they're there. You know, help the doctors. And I wanted to be sure that they were clean and didn't take it home with them. We got that done so that they didn't. That was very challenging. We got that done. But there were other ones, too, but not on that level that is. Because they still talk about it. In fact, I met an engineer that I talked to who’s doing something of how they decontaminated that building. He says, I wish I would have known you before we did it. See, because the building has been brought down. But you have to throw it away. We buried the ambulance that he came in. The whole thing was buried. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Where? Out on site somewhere? Where was it buried? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: I forget what area. But they had to cover it to move it. We did not want them to move it as such. So we had the seal it. The first rule of any contamination spread, the very first rule, you have to contain it. You don't do what the Japanese did in that island, I mean, after that tsunami. They forgot the first rule. You've got to contain the contamination. You cannot make it go airborne. That's dangerous to the population. That is what we always keep in mind. And that's why we went over there, and we did that to that ambulance. We wrapped it all up. And, of course, the monitors already had that done before I got there. But what they also had to do was the 30 miles of roadway had to be surveyed from PFP plant to the hospital. You know, you spend time, and you hear the phrase, there's no experience like experience. And in my case that was the case. As I became more experienced, the more I got picked on to do these dirty jobs—which I didn't mind because a lot of times I volunteered. I wanted to see what was going on. I should have been a woman. I was inquisitive. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: I was going to ask you, if you look back at your years working in Hanford, overall how would you assess Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: That's a good question, and I have a very good answer to that. I really didn't know what the answer was until I visited other sites. I knew I was going to get to retire within the year. And then my boss—I mentioned his name, Bernie Cyrusek. I said, you know what I never did is visit another site? I know what we do here, but we don't know what the others do there. Rocky Flats, Los Alamos. I said, I would like to go to that site and visit my peers and see how they do their job compared to us. Well, he said, you're going to get, you know, a year. He said, in less than a year now you're going to get retired. He said, but I'm going to do it because you're in there. So he did. I even got to take my wife, but I had to pay her airfare. And the first place we visited was Rocky Flats, and they went over in to New Mexico and went to Los Alamos. Have you ever been to those sites? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: I've been to Los Alamos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: Okay. You've never been to Rocky Flats? Rocky Flats had a lot of problems, maybe some I shouldn't--I can't talk to you about. But the one thing that I noticed that they did at Rocky Flats, which was a no-no—We have lunchrooms out at work, the reactor. You're got to have a place to have lunch, right? That's a sacred place for being clean. We don't want anybody eating food that has any possibility of having contamination around. Our lunchrooms were surveyed all the time at work. And I notice this. When we're out at lunch, I'm seeing people with lab coats going in to eat lunch in them. So I asked my fellow managers, I says, why are you allowing this? He said, what? I says, see those people? They have what we call SWP clothing, which is the acronym for them for protective clothing. And he said, well, there's nothing wrong with it. They're surveyed. I said, who surveyed them? He said, well, they do it themselves, surveying. And I said, and you trust them that they're clean, and you're going to go eat right next to them? I says, I wouldn't. I would do it with our own people. I said, why don't you have your own people do it? Well, they won't let us. Well, I says, then you tell them we're not going to eat there You're not going to eat there. Because it should be clean. They should not wear any protective clothing in the lunchroom. That's a no-no. Well, we can't do it. I said, don't give me that. You're the supervisor. You're the manager. You set the rules. The guy above you don't set the rules. He may override you, but you set the rules. It's your responsibility to keep the safety of the people. You've got to do your job, and you're not doing it. He says, I know you're right. And I said, well, then do it because when I report back there I'm going to tell my boss the one thing I didn't like about Rocky Flats. And I did. [LAUGHTER] Los Alamos. They were a lot better. They were a lot better. They didn't allow things like that to happen. They had one thing that they had there that I wish we had had. There were so many radiation zones that we needed to know the exact readings of the airborne contamination, like here in this room. We're breathing this air. Is it clean? What you have to do is go in there with the portable, take the air sample off of that in the room, locate it. Take that sample paper off, bring it in, count the sample, and then we decide what the limits are from what our readings are. But in Los Alamos they had a different system, which I liked. They had probes on the air sample, which this detector would tell you what the level was at a remote area. So wouldn't it be nice to have a room that you could tell anybody at any time what the level of airborne contamination is? Once that alarm goes off, you could shut it down right now. And this reduces the amount of people that might be in there to get airborne contaminated and ingested into their lungs. I said, that's our job to do this. And I think Los Alamos gets an A for that. There's other things, but I won’t talk about that. So when I came back, I found out how really safe Hanford was. When somebody would ask me, do you think it's safe to work out there? I said, do you think I'm a dummy? Am I going to work out there where I'm not safe? One thing at Hanford always did, and I'll emphasize this. Safety comes first. And they did it, and they meant it. And I thank them. Because they taught me that. They taught me that in everyday life. I am very proud of Hanford's safety record. They did a good job. And that's how I found out they were the best one. And it was just the other two. They weren't as good as we are. We're number one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and talking with us. I really appreciate it--and for sharing your stories and experiences. It's terrific. Thanks very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Riccobuono: You are quite welcome. I really enjoyed it. You just brought back some good memories of my life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX266709561"> Bauman: Awesome. [LAUGHTER] </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:10:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 179 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview F Reactor DR Area VIT Plant Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX K Area 300 Area B Reactor PFP plant 234-5 building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1952-1970 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Dunn, Roy Cyrusek, Bernie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip "Rick" Riccobuono Description An account of the resource An interview with Philip "Rick" Riccobuono conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/6/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 234-5 building 300 Area B Reactor DR Area F Reactor K Area PFP plant Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) VIT Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffd574834b9e91334555bb134407a78ff.jpg c7a06ce1bcaa7cf7ff7b35701c99c37a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F935d35ec4e72a2fdefbfaff051d8a29d.mp4 8bcb13d04c4911f897a5aaab7e50965b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Rhoades Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Northwest Public Television | Rhoades_Jack </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Robert Bauman: Okay. We'll go ahead and start. And if we could start by having you say your name and then spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Sure, my name is Jack L., middle initial for Lewis, Rhoades, R-H-O-A-D-E-S. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Great. Thank you very much. And my name is Bob Bauman and this is October 16th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start with, if you could talk about your family's background. What brought them here? What brought you and your family here to the Tri-Cities, and when, and that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Sure, well my dad worked for DuPont in the early '40s--like '40, '41, '42--in a TNT plant for the war effort, and he had a college degree in chemistry. So when the Manhattan Project kicked off in late '43, he was one of the people selected out of DuPont's Joliette Plant to go down and train on the chemistry of plutonium at Clinton Works, which later became Oak Ridge, Tennessee. It was located in Oak Ridge, probably an Army Depot at the time. And when he was transferred to the Clinton Works, why, my mom and my younger sister and I—I would have been about four then—went back to the ranch in Colorado and lived with her parents until my father got transferred up here to Hanford in like April of '44. And we finally got a house, or were on line to get a house, by August '44. And so what I can remember--I mean I was a young kid, but this was pretty traumatic, all the excitement of the war effort--but my mom got a telegram, which was hand-carried out to the farm by the postman. And it just simply said, go to Denver, get on train such and such. There'll be a one-way ticket for you waiting, get off at Hinkle, Oregon and the government will take care of you from there. So it was amazing because the train had some servicemen on it, but the preponderance of people on this train were women, just like my mother, headed to Hanford with two or three screaming kids. Everybody was trying to carry a couple suitcases, trying to carry a kid or drag a kid. We got off the train in Hinkle, Oregon—which is out like the armpit of America—and it was dark. It was probably midnight. And the Green Hornets, or the old Army buses, were there with a bunch of MPs. And the soldiers were really great. They helped all the women get their luggage off and loaded us all up into buses and drove over-- course we had to go the long way around Wallula Gap to Hanford. And the parking north of the Federal Building was all administrative and dormitories. So my dad had actually been in a dormitory there with a roommate for six months. And so he was out front waiting when the bus got there, along with tens of other guys. And so his roommate had gotten moved to another room, so there was like two cots in there. And my mom and dad had one cot, and my sister and I had another cot. And we lived there for several weeks until his name came up and we moved into an F house on—it's Jadwin now, but it used to be Goethals—down in the 300 block. There used to be Campbell's Grocery Store across the street. That's the way life started for us. I was five at the time, but my birthday was in late October, so I started the first grade in Lewis and Clark, which was one of the first schools that was occupied by students because they were still building the houses toward the north. I think maybe Marcus Whitman was in place, and later on Jefferson was built. But there were so many kids that when my mother took me to school, I was assigned to go to school from 6:00 AM to noon. And then other kids came in and went from 1:00 to like 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And so nobody had a car. You just were on foot. And then of course, the government had the Green Hornet buses for transporting people around town to a limited extent, but mostly for transporting workers out to the 200 Area. My dad was actually was the first plant manager of T Canyon, which was one of the two bismuth phosphate plants for producing uranium from the fuel from B Reactor. He later became the manager of 231-Z. When they first started processing plutonium, the end result at Hanford was plutonium nitrate, and they had to reduce it. It would come out of T and B Canyons as a fluid liquid. And so 231-Z then condensed it down to like a green Jell-O, and that's what they flew to Los Alamos. And then Los Alamos actually converted the green Jell-O to the metal which went into the first Trinity explosion. And even though everybody knows about Nagasaki because of the plutonium there, there was actually a third pit that was available. And after Hiroshima, Tibbets flew back to the United States to get the third pit in case it was needed. But, fortunately, the Japanese surrendered. So after the war was over, my dad got promoted up to what was called an area supervisor. He managed all of the plutonium activities because they'd started a new building that was called 234-5, or Z Plant. And Z Plant was the plant that produced the pits during the Cold War, and that's the nuclear core. So what they made down at Los Alamos for Trinity and Nagasaki, they transferred the production and the production line up to the building in 234-5 and he was a manager of that. I remember, in later years, my dad talking about the building was divided into two parts. There was the top secret half and the secret half, and the workers didn't know who was on the other side. They had entrances from different directions and they never communicated. And the whole building had—the doors were like a bank vaults, not three foot thick, but they were steel bank vault doors. And he said he had to memorize over 100 combination locks in the building. And to him, that was one of the more challenging tasks that he had to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And how long did he work at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: We left in '50, and it ultimately caused his demise. But he had, according to the health physics people, he ended up dying of stomach cancer. And so there was a 50-50 chance that it was caused by working at Hanford. But he had developed really severe ulcers. And they eventually had to cut out half of his stomach because it just perforated and he kept almost bleeding to death. And so we moved to Texas and he went into business with one of his brothers in Odessa, Texas selling real estate and insurance. And later moved back in about 1960 and he then worked for United Nuclear, and he was a manager of extrusion press for N Reactor fuel. And then later on was hired by DOE and was a director of safety for DOE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And what was your father's name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Paul Gordon Rhoades. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And so during the war period when you were in first grade, did you have any idea of what your father was doing? What he was working on? What his job was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: No, absolutely nothing. And he was absolutely paranoid about the secrecy aspect. I can remember that vividly. And I can remember when news of the bomb was released on the radio, and my mother called him on the phone out at the plant. When she said, did you know that the bomb they dropped on Japan was made in Hanford? And he slammed the phone down, wouldn't even talk to her. He viewed working at Hanford as the same way a marine would view going ashore in Iwo Jima. It was his duty. In fact, he was not really for going after the compensation stuff that I think was voted in in 2000. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Did he at some point then talk about what he was doing out there? What he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Not much really. I mean, he did have anecdotes, like talking about the Green Run, when they released iodine-139. And one of the things I remember him talking about was arriving at work in a bus. And ruthenium is something that can't be filtered out in the sand filters on the plutonium processing plants, and so it would condense on the side of the towers because the chimney was so tall that it would cool off and then it'd condense on the inside of the--Well, every once in a while there'd be a change of conditions and this stuff would flake off, and go out the top of the stack, and be like snowflakes falling on the ground, and they have a short lived half-life. So the guys would get off the bus. They'd have to put on gauze mask and booties and everything, and walk into the building, and then get decontaminated before they entered the building. And then that was the start of their eight-hour shift. But there was no question that production was paramount. And there's no question in my mind that what DuPont did with the knowledge that was available in those days for designing the canyons and the reactors, was nothing short of brilliant. And even though people are upset with the environmental contamination--because we basically have got five square miles--or five by five, 25 square miles that's contaminated from the soil to the groundwater out there in the 200 Areas. But compared to what they did in Russia, which was dump it straight into the lake that fed out under the Arctic Circle, DuPont took advantage and was farsighted beyond belief in my professional estimation. I just marvel at how DuPont did on designing the reactor, and designing the canyons, and having them work safely. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: You say your father didn't really talk about it a whole lot--his work—did he ever express any concerns about safety at all or was he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Never. In fact, DuPont was--as I grew up, and then as I worked later and they were down at Savannah River, and when I was working at Hanford--DuPont probably had the highest reputation for safety of any large organization in the nuclear industry. At Savannah River, if a guy climbed up a ladder, and did something stupid, and fell off and broke his arm at home, and he came to work and they found out that he had been unsafe at home, then he had time off. I mean, he was punished for what he did on the weekend because he was not thoughtful in his safety process. But DuPont, I held them in extremely high regard, high reputation. And they were, when you think about it, they did this for a dollar. They definitely were part of the war effort that sacrificed for the good of America. They weren't in it to make money or anything like that. They just were doing what they were paid to do. And they got out as soon as they could. And then they came back and did a second stint when they were asked. They were the only company that the government trusted. So they built Savannah River. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I want to go back to talking about when you first arrived and you were five years old, do you remember any sort of first impressions that you had, or early memories of first arriving in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Oh, it was, of course, for a kid in the first grade, it was exciting because everybody was the same. They were all on foot, and they were all new. In fact, that kind of curiosity anecdote was on the first day as I was walking to school with my mother, and we got about half way to the school. And another woman who's coming in on a side street, and she had a little boy. And my mother just about passed out. It turned out it was her college roommate, who they hadn't seen since she graduated from college. And they both had gone their separate ways and it ended up that they are actually living in the house behind us. And they renewed their friendship from college and it went on until they both passed away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: You mentioned that in first grade, you started at 6:00 AM. There was so many children that was a way they could serve the needs of all the families with children. How long did that last? Did that last through first grade or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah, it probably did last the first year. But by the time the year had gone by and as a year progressed, they were building hutments out alongside the school. So basically, the first grade was about the only time I went to school inside of a building. And maybe the sixth grade up in Jefferson, I went inside a building, but the rest of time I was always in a hutment. There were just more kids than there was space. But yeah, that was sparse. I mean, you didn't have a car. The only entertainment was playing bridge and softball. They had a very organized adult softball league, so that was the entertainment. There was no stores to buy Christmas gifts or anything. You ordered whatever you wanted out of Sears and Roebuck in July, and it got back-ordered, and you got it in the following July. But when Griggs opened over in Pasco that was a big thing because when I wanted a bike. And when my dad bought me a bike, basically, he had to borrow somebody's car. And we drove up to Yakima, and then he came home and assembled it, and turned us loose. For kids, the basic entertainment was skating. And they had concrete tennis courts up by Lewis and Clark--on the south end of Lewis and Clark--and so that was the only surface that you could roller skate on, because you had those old clamp on roller skates that you tightened with a key that just hooked on to your heel and the sole of your shoe. And so we were just constantly roller skating. There wasn't other entertainment. There was just recess at school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Were there any movie theaters, anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah, there were. There were two movie theaters. And every weekend your dad gave you a dime. And you could get in for a nickel, I think, and get popcorn for a nickel or something like that. Probably everything you stood in line for—I mean everything—there was just a line beyond human belief. Like when it was haircut time, the only barbers in town at that time were down at the Allied Arts, down below Jackson's bar. And so, I don't know, they had two or three barbers in there. So Saturday morning, the boys and their fathers would show up to get their haircuts. And so there'd be a line of 100 kids. There wouldn't be no adults. They were all up at the bar playing pool and having a beer while the kids stood in line waiting to get a haircut. But when Ganzel’s came in was like night and day. Even shopping at the grocery store, you had to become friends with the butcher. If you didn't know somebody in the grocery store, and they befriended you and gave you a heads up that, hey, there's some marshmallows coming into town, why, you just did without. You ate a lot of canned fruit and vegetables and stuff like that. And people were always doing their own chickens and putting them up. But it was just pretty spartan. They gave you a house. I don't know if my dad even paid any rent. Basically, they gave him grass seed. They gave him coal. We just had a real nice house. And my parents had borrowed somebody's pickup, and they'd driven up Yakima and bought some furniture, and brought it home one piece at a time. But we lived down there on Goethals for, probably, from '44 to '49, or something like that. And then we moved up on McMurray, and then we left in '50 and went down to Odessa, Texas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: What about institutions like churches? Were there churches for people to go to on Sundays in those early years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: We didn't. It wasn't because my parents didn't believe in God, it's just like we didn't go to church. I mean, we'd have had to walk. I'm not even sure where--I honestly do not remember where the closest church would have been. I'm sure there were churches, though, because the government set off areas for parks, they set off areas for schools, they set off areas for churches, very thorough. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: What about any community events that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Not much. They had Richland Days. They had like the polio March of Dimes drives. Actually it was probably after—between, let's say, '45 and '50—when Camp Hanford really had gotten established and they had moved in missile people. This was just a sizable number of soldiers up there in North Richland, but they had much better facilities for entertainment--movies and all--it was just built newer. And so even though my dad didn't serve in the service, he had a lot of friends that had been in the service, and so we could go to movies up there. And they had outside entertainment that came in that you could go to. We never did live out at Hanford or anything like that. My ex-father-in-law actually came here and he lived out at Hanford for a while. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: So you said your family then moved away in 1950, and then came back in 1960? Your father came back? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yeah, about ten years later he came back. I'm not too-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Did you come back at that point also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Well, I was in college, so I came up here after I graduated in '61 and went into the—they still had the draft at that time—so I volunteered for the Navy, and ended up flunking a hearing test and flight school. So I got washed out of flight training. And Vietnam hadn't started to build up yet so they weren't desperate for pilots. So after I got out of the Navy, I came back up here and stayed for a short while and got a job. I had a mining, engineering and geology degree, so I got a job in Colorado in a molybdenum mine, and worked there for a couple of years, and decided to go back to college and get a degree in metallurgy. And so I went to WSU and graduated from there in '65, went down to Kaiser Steel in California. By then, my dad had moved from working for the contractor into working for the AEC. Now, I'm not too sure—I'm sure he just probably just wanted me and my wife and their grandkids closer to them—but anyway, he told the people in personnel that I had a metallurgy degree. And one day I got a call from Wanda Cotner, that was the branch chief over the personnel hiring, and she asked me if I'd come up for an interview. And she said that she could give me a nice raise if I'd think about joining the AEC. So I ended up accepting the offer. And when I got my Q Clearance, I moved up here in July of '67, and worked for DOE as an individual contributor over PNLs. It was a Hanford lab. PNL, I guess, had taken over by then. They had a number of very important metallurgical programs on understanding how plutonium reacted, especially in the reactor with neutrons hitting it all the time. So I advanced very nicely. And by the early '80s, I was assistant manager for--it was then ERDA or AEC--for all the compliance programs at Hanford--that'd be safety, and QA, and environmental, and security--so all the compliance structure at Hanford. Then, probably, in about '84, I guess, I moved me over and I was assistant manager for all the nuclear operations at Hanford. So I had the 300 Area for the fuel fab for N Reactor. And we still had N Reactor running. And FFTF was starting up, we had PUREX running and T Canyon. I probably had a billion dollar budget back in the '80s just for all the nuclear operations here at the site. So we did the first comprehensive EIS that was ever done in the Department of Energy for the tank farms, built the last double shell tanks that were ever built. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And how long did you work at--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: I worked for about 20 years for DOE, and the AEC, and then I took an early retirement in, must've been like 1988. So it must have been about 21 years I worked here. So I left Hanford and went over to Idaho Falls and was as a manager over their capital construction projects. And then I got transferred to Rocky Flats. After the FBI and EPA had shut down Rocky Flats, the Department of Energy terminated the contract with the contractor. And actually they didn't even compete the contract. They just, literally, gave it to EG&G, which is almost unheard of, to not compete a major contract. So I was in charge of—they had shut down Rocky Flats operations. And so when EG&G came in, our charter was to restart the plant. And so I was the project manager over restarting the plutonium operations at Rocky Flats. I got promoted up to being assistant general manager over environmental remediation. And then I got a call from Lockheed down in Houston and they were trying to break into the DOE business. And so they hired about 20 experienced people that had worked in and outside of DOE to put together proposals to run these big contracts, whether it be Oak Ridge, or Rocky Flats, or Idaho, or Nevada Test Site. And so then I worked for Lockheed and it then became Lockheed Martin. But I worked for Lockheed from like '93 to '96, and I was a general manager of one of their environmental remediation divisions. And I transferred back up here, which was probably about the sixth or seventh time I've been through this town. But when Lockheed Martin and Fluor won the Westinghouse contract in '96, I got transferred back to Richland. So I'd made a circuitous loop that had gone from Richland to Idaho Falls to Rocky Flats outside of Denver, down to Houston, the Nevada Test Site, and the back up to Hanford. But I ended up, after I retired from Lockheed Martin, I went to work for a small business here at ATL International. They currently run the 222-S Laboratory. I was a vice president for them over all their Hanford work. Eventually, I just decided to go out on my own. So I consulted from about 2004 to the end of 2011. And by then, I looked around and all my contacts had either died or moved to Arizona or Florida. Even today, I probably don't know two human beings that are still working for a living. But this place has been--and DOE has been—absolutely a blessing to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I want to go back. So your family left in 1950. Then you came back in '67, roughly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: No, I came back in '61. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Just for a short period of time. Just long enough to enlist in the Navy. And then when I got ready to start flight school, I took a hearing test. And believe it or not, the physical requirements for all branches of service are the same. It's just that they check people that are going to be in the Air Force or in the Navy, they just check certain things closer than they do if you want to be a marine. And so I was just borderline acceptable in the hearing. And since they had an abundance of pilots and the Vietnam War hadn't escalated or not, they ended up giving me an honorable discharge and reclassifying me as 1-Y, which is, it has to be a national emergency to call you back up. I came home and then went to Colorado and went to work in the mine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: When you came back here for the job working at Hanford, I was wondering, what ways had the community changed since you were here as a child going to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: You know what, to me, at a macroscopic view of the Tri-Cities, the biggest thing that's changed is the number of people. Richland is still uptown and downtown. Kennewick is striving to open up that area between the two bridges along the river. But the biggest thing is now there are probably three times as many people. There was probably 90,000 people between the three towns early in the '50s. And now there's probably a quarter of a million people. And so the biggest changes is that the roads and streets haven't been modernized--or the stoplights--to handle triple the traffic. But the wine industry obviously is a major thing, because when I was a kid growing up here—When they talk about termination dust storms, they were not kidding, because I lived in eastern Colorado and my parents had lived through the Dust Bowl, and I knew what dust storms looked like. And when they hit Richland, your house—I remember my mother, she—when they vacuum--you've just got sweep broom and a wood floor, and your sweeping it up, and throwing it in the yard with a dust pan. But the irrigation changed all that. There's just so much more moisture going up in the air that the dust storms are few and far between. And the humidity has gone from like 10% or 15% probably to 35%. And the summers have gotten less extreme. When I was a kid, it was not unusual at all for July--from the first of July to the end of July--to be 110 to 115 degrees. I've seen it 117 degrees here. And now, just look at this last summer, we had a few days of 101 or 103. But the climate has mellowed out with the extremes. Like in '48, the Columbia River froze clear across from side to side. You could drive a truck across it. The same year as the big flood. So the extremes have gone away. And instead of the real dips and curves a sinusoidal curve, it's more shallow extremes. But the fact that they now have Meadow Springs, and they have Clipper Ridge, and West Richland, of course, has expanded from a nothing. When I was a kid there was just basically a few people that liked to have farmland lived out there. There was probably as many people living in Yakima as there was in Richland, because they couldn't build houses fast enough. And those that worked in the 100 Areas or the 200 Areas, it was just as close to come in from Yakima as it was to drive from Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: You talk about a number memories from your childhood, are there any other things, events, or particular memories that really stand out from those early years in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: You had to make your entertainment. And you had to wait in line for everything, including getting a car. Jeez, it must have been '48 before we got a car. And in the Sunday paper there was an ad that said, call a number in Seattle, and get on a list for a Buick. And so my mother did that. And about six months later we got a call and said come pick up your car. We got on a train over in Pasco that just had wood benches in it, and we went over Snoqualmie to Seattle, and got this new '48 Buick, and drove it home over Snoqualmie Pass. People from all over the neighborhood were kind of ogling this car because anybody else that had a car basically were driving some pre-1940 model, because during the '40s they didn't make cars. But that was a vast improvement for us to have our own wheels. But self-made entertainment. When we lived up on McMurray—of course, all these guys that came here from the '30s and '40s, all the entertainment they had as they grew up as kids was self-made also. So playing pool was a big activity. And so my dad bought a pool table over in Pasco, and we had it in the basement. And on the weekend, he and all of his buddies iced down beer and played kelly pool all afternoon, that was the entertainment. And probably that night those same guys, with their wives, had a little potluck at somebody's house and played Bridge. My parents played bridge all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you, then, also about your working at Hanford. Hanford for so long focused on production. You mentioned that production, production. At some point, of course, it shifted to cleanup. I wondered if that shift impacted your work at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Well, by the time I left Hanford it was still in a reduced production mode. The writing was on the wall that environmental restoration was the future of Hanford, not production. We fought to keep N Reactor going because it was dual purpose. But especially when they passed the RCRA, or Resource Conservation Recovery Act, that was the first major commitment by the US Government for an environmental cleanup. And they sent that law, or bill, out to all the field offices and asked for the field offices to comment on what effect it would have on their operations. And Dixy Lee Ray was the commissioner at the time. And I must've been a director of safety at the time. So we got together with the contractors and we labored over this. And fortunately, I have a knack of being able to synthesize complicated things into a very concise statement. And when we got through reviewing this, I wrote a letter for the manager of the field office. And it was about this long, and it simply said, this will shut down nuclear pit production for the United States of America. And from that point on it was one lawsuit after another as Congress tried to extend its will on the defense industry. But at the time, like when I was a Rocky Flats, the reason they were so anxious to restart that plant that was the only plant in all of DOE complex that didn't have two--like there was Hanford and Savannah River, there was Los Alamos and Livermore Design Lab. So there was a duality in everything. But when they removed the pit production from Hanford, instead having pit production at Savannah River and Hanford both, they built a new plant at Rocky Flats. And it was the only plant that made pits. And so it was a choke point. And when the FBI and EPA shut that plant down, basically, we had nuclear subs that were out in the ocean with 20 missiles and there was no spear point on the end of the spear. They were not loaded because we were not making pits. So that was why the defense industry was fighting with Congress on the environmental cleanup was because we were not in a good defensible position nuclear-wise during that Cold War years if we had the boomers out in the ocean that didn't have a number of warheads on top of them. And that's why EG&G got the contract because DOE believed that they could restart the plant and start making these pits. So even though the environmental law was saying you should be shifting quickly to environmental restoration at Rocky Flats, the headquarters people over defense programs were telling you under the table, get this plant running. We need these pits for the defense of America. So it was real catch-22 for the management of the Rocky Flats plant. But eventually, it became obvious that they were never going to restart the plant and so everybody shifted into a full environmental restoration mode. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: During your years working here at Hanford, what would you consider some of the more challenging aspects of your job, the work you were doing here, and maybe some of the most rewarding aspects of your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Well, you know--[SIGH] I mean, rewarding is a hard thing to define because that was one of the primary reasons I took early retirement. Let me just use Yucca Mountain as an example. When I hired into the AEC in '67, the United States Government was looking for a repository for nuclear fuel in Lyons, Kansas. So that was '67, and here we are, 2013, and we're no closer to solving that national problem today than we were 40 years ago. So the satisfaction that comes with mission accomplished was always very difficult to achieve. It was more of a case of frustration on my part that the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. If I was going to go any higher in DOE, I would have to go to Washington, DC. Because I was already an SES and that's as high as you could go without a congressional appointment. But the most challenging thing was that when Alex Fremling came in to be the manager of DOE, he brought a complete new, fresh environmental sensitive outlook to the plant. And so trying to deal with the public interface over leaking tanks—106-T was a big bump in my career. I went from a nobody to a branch chief just with one tank leak. [LAUGHTER] But he was very environmental conscious and he was very safety conscious. And so he ratcheted the whole system up, not just one notch, but numerous notches. Because when they built the nuclear industry, they did not have safety standards for the nuclear industry, because it was a brand new industry. So if you looked at the operation of the uranium side, then they used the safety standards of a steel mill and a blast furnace to do the safety standards for Fernald and these other uranium enrichment places. And if you look at the chemical processing in the canyons, they looked to the petroleum cracking industry for safety standards. And if you look to the waste disposal, which was the operation of the tank farms and the burial grounds, it had the same basic safety standards and the interest as a commercial landfill. And so it wasn't until the nuclear Navy was born and Rickover installed a completely different safety philosophy because he was going to have 200, or 300, or 400 sailor—lives were dependent on everything functioning perfectly. And Alex Fremling was bright enough and young enough to recognize that. And he brought that standard into Hanford. So there was just a real crash program on upgrading the operational procedures for tank farms and other waste disposals. Skin contaminations were accepted as—like a guy working on your car, he accepts the fact that his hands are going to get greasy. But Alex didn't accept that. He said, you know, we're going to have zero accidents. And we're going to have zero skin contaminations. We're going to be open with the public on any of these tank leaks. And the problem was we didn't have, really, the skill to measure how these tanks were doing—whether we're losing material or not losing material. And even though you could measure the depth, the interest of whether it was unacceptable to leak was not there. And the reason for that was that when the first tanks were built, they were built in 12. So there's four rows of three, and the separation process was simply a settling process. So the waste would come into the first tank and fill up, and the solids would drift to the bottom. And then it'd overflow into the second tank, another lighter batch of solids. And then it would flow into the third tank, and more solids would fall out. Then it would flow into the ground. And so if you're putting stuff in the ground for ten or 15 years, and using nine exchange properties of the soil to capture the radionuclides, then what's the big deal about a tank leaking a little extra waste? You've already put a billion gallons of stuff into the soil, what's another 100,000 gallons? So that was the mentality that Alex faced with the contractors when he came to Hanford. I give him credit. He single-handedly changed that. And he took on the challenge to do the very first environmental impact statement on tank waste for the whole agency. He was the guinea pig. He was the front runner, or the blazer, for the DOE on environmental issues. And so I honestly think that Hanford, even though, because of the design of the plants, there was no way to retrofit these plants to not discharge stuff to the soil, but there was a way to monitor it better and be more acutely aware of occurrences that you didn't want to occur. Whether it was stuff leaking on the ground on top of the tank, or whether it was stuff leaking into the ground through the bottom of the tank. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: So what time period are you talking about here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: This would have been in late '70s up to, probably, '87. And Mike Lawrence came in '87. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: And it's Alex Fremling? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Yes, Fremling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: How do you spell the last name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: F-R-E-M-L-I-N-G. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: So that's when you noticed a shift definitely taking place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: No question. I was a student of, that instead of resisting these changes, I embraced these changes and I was rewarded for that. But the mentality of the DOE—or it was ERDA at that time, but the mentality of the workers in ERDA were no different than the mentality in the contractors. I mean, we'd been doing it this way for 30 years, why are we changing? He conducted the first operational readiness review probably in the nation for startup nuclear facilities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: How were you able to change that mentality I guess into the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: You know what, I'd say, probably, through the award-fee process. It's through the money. When I first got here, contractors had contracts, but there was never any real evaluation of whether they deserved their fee or didn't deserve their fee. So once we instituted an award-fee process in which we itemized the areas for improvement, then quantified A, B, C or D or F, you could then quantify. If they had $10 million fee that's up for grabs for this quarter or this six month period, you could quantify how well they did to meet those goals. So it was very intense and it was a steep learning curve, but it produced results. And we changed contractors, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Mm-hmm, right. So this was when you would have been in charge of compliance programs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: First, yeah. After I was a branch chief, I was an assistant division director. Basically all of my career was in nuclear operations, especially with the tank farms. And even though I moved over to be the director of safety, and then on to be the system manager for compliance, you were just viewing operations from an independent standpoint. You didn't direct nuclear operations, but you did appraisals, and you did audits, and you did oversight, and you graded a contractor on his performance independent from operations. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Was it during your time there, I mean, at some point of course there were a lot of questions raised about the tanks. And in terms of the public, questions about tanks leaking and that sort of thing. Did you have to deal with any of that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Listen, I spent—if I wasn't making presentations to the public or defending our actions to the public, I was doing so in front of Congress. There was constant barrage and it was difficult to communicate because by this time the environmental support groups were springing up to put pressure on DOE to perform and to clean up and to accelerate. And, of course, you control certain things, but you don't control your budget. Congress controls your budget. And so it was difficult at best, and it was contentious. It's constantly contentious because it was like I was speaking in English and they were listening in Greek. We couldn't communicate, because they were just totally upset with what the government had done to end the war. They forgot that what was the end result was stop the war and save millions of lives in the invasion of Japan. And they had forgotten that. And it was just on the bad things that have been done to the environment. And I'd be the first to agree to that--I don't think that in hindsight, if you went back and re-ran it ten times in hindsight, I don't think anything would have changed. Because the same pressure to beat the Germans to the nuclear bomb and the same pressure to end the war in the Pacific would not change. And so you'd only have the capability to do what your technology was advanced enough to do at that time and place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: I wonder if there's anything that you haven't talked about, or I haven't asked about yet, either in terms of your years growing up here as a young child, or your father's work, or your work at Hanford, that you'd like to talk about, or think it would be important to talk about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: I would just simply say that I think that the people and the contractors in the government, as well as contractors, have always given 100% to do the right thing. And they don't get much praise. And they are constantly vilified because they're missing milestones and stuff like that. But there is just some extremely technically challenging work to be done out there. It's been a flywheel for this site since 1943, and it's going to continue out probably to 2075. But they'll never clean the site up, and they'll never walk away from it. They'll have some 25-square-mile pad out there that has all kinds of markings on it, don't drill here. But they're making tremendous strides in cleaning up the groundwater and removing the stuff along the river. I never dreamed in my wildest dreams that they could clean up all the burial grounds and trenches along the river and the buildings. Each one of those reactors had the facilities enough to run a small city, and now all that's left is a cube. You could paint dots on it or something like rolling dice across the prairie. But I just think it's been remarkable how much they've cleaned up and how safely they've done it. You don't ever read of anybody getting killed out there, or maimed out there, and they're still using a lot of heavy equipment. The safety standards are extremely high and it’s part of the reward, the carrot in front of the donkey. If you're safe and have a good safety record and you make progress, you get your fee. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Bauman: --for coming and talking to us today and sharing your memories and experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124"> Rhoades: Great, thank you very much. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:09:30 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 180 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area 100 Area Z Plant N Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Fast Flux Test Facility B Reactor 234-5 Building 222-S Laboratory Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1967-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1967-1988 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Rhoades, Paul Cotner, Wanda Ray, Dixy Lawrence, Mike Fremling, Alex Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Rhoades Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack Rhoades conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/16/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 222-S Laboratory 234-5 building 300 Area B Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash. Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX Richland (Wash.) Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8281eeea60bc11443576c297c088680a.jpg cc17aca4ceedb233f5ec5376253ee16c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1a4fe936fb05b5f5d96e8988d8fc182a.mp4 034eb209cfdf1e2030c91dc16e22815f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leatris Reid Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Northwest Public Television | Reid_Leatris </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: My name is Leatris Faye Boehmer Reid. B-O-E-H-M-E-R. It's pronounced "bay--" "bay-mer." And I was born in North Dakota in 1930. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Just before we get started on that, I just need to get the date on here, make sure we have everything. And so we're recording this on August 27, 2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay, August 27. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And we're recording it in your home in Walla Walla. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Yeah, let's have you talk about your family and how your family came to White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: First? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I came here in June to White Bluffs, Washington in 1935 or '36. I'm pretty sure it was '36 because I had my sixth birthday there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So you said you were born in North Dakota and moved to White Bluffs in 1936. Why did your family leave North Dakota and head to White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, we had a terrible Depression, as you know. And I was a Depression baby, and we just simply weren't—there was no work, there was no money. We just simply had to get out of there. We lost a little boy at two and a half with what they call membranous croup at the time. But it was actually, what it was was that awful--oh, kids have it. It's asthma, terrible asthma. And he just couldn't make it. And I think it just broke my mother's heart. She had just lost a baby. So then I became the baby. But I think I was almost six, so--She had written all over Washington, Oregon, because she knew that there was fruit there. And there was food, and the temperature was reasonable. And so she wrote all the little towns that she could find in Washington and Oregon to find out what they did there, what they grew, and what the chances were of people surviving. And she got one for Mr. Reierson that owned the grocery store in White Bluffs, and one from the man who had the bank. And I can't remember his name. But she got glowing letters about the fruit. She got glowing things about that there was work. There was packing sheds, there were alfalfa fields to take care of. And there certainly were. They didn't stint on it and it was not exaggerated. So that's how we came to be there, and find it we did. It was exactly like they described it. It was probably the best thing that ever happened to us, because we would have starved. We had no money even to pay for that little boy's doctor bill that we left. So then I was the littlest one, and we had six left. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so talk a little bit about your parents and your siblings, what your parents' names and your siblings' names-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, my oldest sister--who I dearly love and still is alive and I'm glad--is 10 years older than me. And her name is Dorothy Lorraine Boehmer-- "bay-mer"--Foyer. And she lives in Everett, Washington, and she will also probably make a statement to you. But she's my oldest. And then I had a sister LaVonne. I had a sister named Helen and a brother named Virgil, all of them the same name, Boehmer. And I had a little brother. I had a sister named Darlene also. And she didn't live at White Bluffs. She stayed with my great-aunt and uncle in Minnesota because they had no children and they wanted to educate her. She was very smart. And she had been treated badly at school in North Dakota, and she didn't want to go back. And they were visiting us. So my mother said, well, you could have her for a year. And of course she--they became so attached to her. And she loved them dearly, and they were good to her. And they did visit us at White Bluffs. And they liked White Bluffs when they came. But it was the best thing that ever happened to us to move to White Bluffs. They had work in packing sheds, like I say. They had--the kids were very receptive to us. And everybody there just opened their arms. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I wonder if you could describe the place you lived in White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, we lived at Lulubelle Johnson's house, and we were buying it from her. But we never realized any money out of when it sold to the government. But Lulubelle Johnson had a son named Ford Johnson because Lulubelle Johnson was a niece of Henry Ford, made the automobiles. And we stayed there at that house and it was just—it was wonderful. We had good neighbors, fruit orchards all over. All over. When they said that you will find all the fruit you want, they really meant it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so what sort of fruit was on the farm you grew up on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, we had--we grew alfalfa. If you didn't grow alfalfa, you grew fruit. But we had a good well on our land, and alfalfa was a good-paying crop. And of course, we had a cow. And if we had too much alfalfa, we could sell it. So it wasn't something that went bad. And the fruit--every kind of fruit. First time I ever tasted cherries or even seen a cherry tree was there. Or ever ate an apricot or seen an apricot. Or even apples--we had apples there—wonderful. And the whole valley was full of that. It wasn't just one little orchard, it was lots of orchards. It was covered with orchards and alfalfa fields. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Did you have electricity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We did! First time we had electricity. We had electricity shortly before we moved from North Dakota because I remember my mother had a Maytag washing machine that she had just bought and paid $2 a month for. [LAUGHTER] So we had that all packed up and ready to go and our tickets--the government gave us tickets to get out of a depressed area. And we took the Empire Builder--brand new--to Spokane, and came into White Bluffs on a fruit train with our little parcel of stuff. And they welcomed us with open arms. And they were [AUDIO OUT] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So you mentioned that there was a well. Is that--how were your crops irrigated with it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, well, we had sprinkler systems. They weren't like they are now. But what we had, you dug the ditch across the field. And then you made little rows out of that on both sides. And you would run it from the well pipe into that big main ditch. And then you would take the little ditches and close them up. When you've got enough irrigation water, you'd close them back up. And that's what we did. That's how we did it. And that's how they water the orchards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And how about running water? Did you have-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We didn't have running water in the house. We went out and got it by the bucketful off of the well. There was a little faucet and you could either pull it up with a bucket or you could turn the faucet on. There was a pump. [LAUGHTER] It's the same one you watered the yard with. But it was grand to have all the fresh water you needed because we paid $0.25 a barrel in North Dakota for drinking water because it was a rancid and acrid. $0.25 then was a lot of money. We washed clothes with it. My mother would take it after she washed clothes and scrub her floors. And they were white from the lye in the soap. And then she would put it on her garden. But we never had bugs on the garden. [LAUGHTER]. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So I was gonna ask you--who were some of your neighbors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Let me see, Beldins. Beldins were one of our neighbors. Summers were some of our neighbors. And I can't even remember what--his kid's name was--oh, I can't say his name. He kind of talked with a nasal. And my dad called him Snazzy Summers. [LAUGHTER] I don't know where that came from. But anyways, he was--he had a crush on my sister Helen. And Helen didn't like him. Of course, she was only about 12 or 13. I don't think she had boys in mind. She was kind of a tomboy, too. They were some of our neighbors. And we lived-- the Abercrombie place was north of us. And down below us was an abandoned place. And they must have made wine of some kind, because they grew grapes and the grapes were still there. They grew right down to the water. We would go down and get these great big, beautiful Tokay red grapes. And they were right there by the river so they had enough water. But then the whole farm was completely abandoned, probably because of the Depression. I really don't know. But they were the neighboring ones. And the Grewells lived up above us. Helen and Gerald Grewell was their name. And Helen Grewell was my sister Helen's very favorite girl. They’d run around all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And how about you? Who were some of your best friends-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, Patsy Borden was my best friend for a while. She was probably my best friend, yes. And she was the granddaughter of the Saths, who were related to the Wiehls who run the ferry. And Ida Mae probably was another little friend. She was a nice little girl. I liked them all. We actually--there wasn't a whole lot of--kids had to go home and go do things. It wasn't--I remember the Kilian children because they were German. And they came there, I want to say about '37, '38. Hitler was already busy in Germany. And they came home. And they Mrs. Supple used to raise sheep. Her and husband--they were German also, very, very German. Nice people, but she thought Hitler was doing such great things over there for the German people. And so Mr. Kilian went over and had a long talk with her and said, you know, you are putting yourself in a dangerous position, because this is not going well in Germany. He might be doing things for the German people, but he has things in mind for the world. And I thought, how kind. How provocative and kind that was. It wasn't necessary for him to do that. He really didn't know them. But he had heard things. And in a little community, things like that get around. It isn't gossip, it's just fear. But I thought that was very kind. I was only about 7, 8 years old. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I was going to ask you about-- did you have certain chores or responsibilities-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Always. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --that you had to do on the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Everybody did. Everybody did. Mine was feeding the chickens and gathering the eggs. And we had a little hen named Grandma that mother picked out of the shell, and Billy Rooster, who I guess was named after me. He turned out beautiful. But little Grandma Hen was sterile, so she must have been too weak. But she kept her in the warming oven for an extra couple hours, and she picked her out of the shell. She was sterile. And she would run around stealing everybody else's chicks. She would have a couple of Rhode Island Reds, and she would have a couple of little Leghorns, and maybe a little Barred Rock or two. And she'd huddle them up and boy, she'd fight them off--she's going to keep these kids. Well, Mrs. Sath was such a sweetheart. They lived in the--next to us. And she brought my mother some duck eggs-- white Peking duck eggs. And she said, why don't you just set her. She's dying to and she doesn't know--she'd fight them off. And so they set about 10 eggs under her because duck eggs are pretty good sized. And she hatched out every one, and she was so proud of them. Oh, boy, she'd just stomp around that farmyard like she really knew what she was doing. And she just took them down to the horse trough one time. And they found the horse trough, and they jumped in. And she just went berserk--"come back, come back." And so it got to be a morning thing. Every morning she'd take them to the horse trough because they had to have their swim. But she raised them. [LAUGHTER] Those things were fun things. We didn't have TV. We had a little, tiny radio that we could listen to for the news. But it wasn't a thing you had on all day. But Billy Rooster used to hear the music and he would try to keep up with it. And my sister Dorothy would always do the lunch dishes. She'd say, Billy Rooster, are you out there singing to this music? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: It was very wholesome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Mm-hm. What other sorts of things did you do for fun? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: The river. Oh, the river. The river was a godsend. We learned to swim the first year, the first summer we were there. And we had a raft. The dads had got together and built this big raft. And if you could swim out to the raft—I was not supposed to, but I did. And the little Lowe boy wasn't supposed to, either. He was just learning to swim. And he went under. And my sister Dorothy was a really good swimmer. And he went under for the third time. And she went down and got him, got him out on that--pulled him up. And there was a couple of guys up there pulled him up on that raft and they turned them over on his stomach. And the water just poured. And he lived. But he wouldn't have lived. And every one of those kids at White Bluffs were just as devoted as that to the river. That was our playground. We had to do our work in the morning because it was cool enough. And the summers over there were--boy, they were hot. But we could go in and get in the swimming pool then, our swimming pool. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: You mentioned a little bit ago having a radio. Did you have a telephone also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We finally did have a telephone. And it was only a dollar a month. That was right uptown. We'd never had one of those before. It was a party line, so if there was an emergency, you had to give up the line. If there was an emergency--if you didn't, they would take your telephone out and you'd never get a telephone again. So that was good and responsible. And I think Mrs. Westling was the telephone--she had it in her home. She and her daughter, I believe, operated it, I'm pretty sure. They lived up by the bank, I remember that. But I can't tell you--we didn't have names on the streets that I know of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so did you get your news mostly on the radio? Was there a newspaper also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: There was. There was a little newspaper there. And I believe it was for Hanford and White Bluffs. And my brother actually worked for that newspaperman. First you start out just because he thought it would be fun. Phil asked him, he said, would you like to know something about publishing a newspaper? And so Dutch went and worked for him. That's what we called him--we didn't call him Virgil. And he went and worked for him. And they did publish a little newspaper. It was a weekly, just once a week. And, of course, they had all the Ladies Aid tea parties, things like that, things at the church. Everything was in there. Yeah, a little gossipy paper. It wasn't malicious. It was just who had a luncheon at their place or whatever. And so, when he got older and came out of the Army, he went and took formal newspapering, went to college and took it. And he became a newspaperman. Boise Statesman was one of them. And he went down to California. And he worked down there for a while, about 10 years there. So that was good for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: He got started in-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Yeah, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: What businesses do you remember being in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, I remember Reierson's Grocery. And I remember around the back of it was a little creamery where you could--in fact, they picked up a can of cream at our back porch every morning, because we had, by then, two cows. And one was a Guernsey and one was a Jersey, and they both had lots of cream. So we couldn't use all the cream, even for six kids. [LAUGHTER] So they would come and pick that up. And my sister, Helen, always did the ironing. She liked to iron. That was her job. And so he would come, and here she'd be on that back porch, early in the morning, starting the ironing. [LAUGHTER] And he says, I don't think you've gone to bed. He was a kidder. But that was what she did, and she was excellent at it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So there was Reierson's and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: And the creamery. And there was a little garage back there, and I can't remember the name of it because we didn't have a car. But there was a little garage back there. And there was Pop English's drugstore. Everybody knew where that was. Pop English and his wife had no children. But they owned this little drugstore. And they made the best ice cream in the world, and he sold it there. And you could have an ice cream cone for a nickel. I mean it was an ice cream cone. And a dime was a double dipper, and it had two shelves and then one cone—it went down to one cone. And that was a dime. And it was hard, if you had a dime, to decide whether you wanted to do that or not. I remember my mother used to give us two pennies for Jesus to take to Sunday school. And I always put one in. I figured Jesus wouldn't care if I have a rope licorice from Pop English's. And years later, I told her, I said, Mama, if I would have known that Jesus didn't want my money like I do now--he wants our love, has nothing to do with my two cents--I would have brought you home one. She says, your Sunday school dress was the messiest thing ever. She says it was always was covered in black. And, she says, the rest of the girls I could just press the back of that little white dress with some water and make it good for next Sunday. And she says, they could wear a Sunday school dress for all month [AUDIO OUT] but you. But she says, I never knew that. And I said, well, I says, if I would've known better, which I know now, you'd have had one, too. [LAUGHTER] By then I was about 47 years old. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, talking about the school in White Bluffs, how large was it, how many students do you think there were, and maybe the teachers that you remember particularly-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I would say that, in my first and second grade class, there was 18 that I can name off, that I can remember. We had a little boy come there named Carter House. And I think his father was something to do with engineering. Allard, Sam Allard kept the irrigation system and the electric thing, and I think Mr. House had something to do with it. But we had never seen a child look like this before. He looked like he stepped out of a catalog. He had this blonde-- beautiful boy-- had this little blonde hair all cut so nice. And he wore little argyle knee socks and little suit pants and a little white shirt and little slaps on his shoes. And I thought, my gosh, that's the cutest little boy I've ever seen. And, of course, he didn't know how to share. And one day I was swinging on the swing, and Alice Moody looked out the window. And here was this little boy grabbing that swing and taking it away from me. And she says, we don't do that here. She says, you have to wait your turn. She says, when Leatris is done with it, she says, you can have it. It'll be your turn. [LAUGHTER] But they were probably nice people, it's just that they weren't White Bluffs-oriented. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And so you want to talk about Alice Moody a little bit? She was your first-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Ah, she was a wonderful teacher. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --grade teacher, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Wonderful lady. She taught first, second, and, I believe, possibly third. And there was probably, I would suppose, 18 in the first grade, and probably close to that in second. And then there was the third grade. And we had—we did not have separate rooms, but we had little partitions that she would put up so that we would keep our attention. And we did have monitors. Everybody helped everybody. If there was a little boy that needed help with numbers and somebody was good with it, she would assign them to help that child. It wasn't--it was probably the most together community. If something was unfair on the playground, it was put a stop to right away, sometimes by the children. And teachers, if they were in their room, they kept a window open in good weather because if there was anything wrong in the playground, it was either reported or taken care of. And I can't remember fights on school. I can't remember that, ever. It would never have been tolerated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: How did you get to school, did you walk-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --or did you ride the bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Everybody walked. The only children I remember that came in on a bus--oh, what was his name—Mr. Fisher's school bus. Mr. Fisher, I believe. And he came in on a little bus--with a little bus. And I think they were probably from out toward Saddle Mountain and farms like that because they had to go to school. But I do remember a little bus. And I don't even remember that it was painted yellow or anything. I think it kind of reminded me of maybe a van. But it had windows in it and it was kind of squared. It seems like it was dark gray. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And so far was the school from your home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, I, let me see. We had to pass Saths’ orchard, the whole length of their orchard, and then Beldins’. And then we had to walk across the front of Beldins’ and their [AUDIO OUT] was pretty good sized. And then we had to walk up past Summers' up the hill to our house. So I would suppose it was probably a mile. And some of them walked a lot more than that. And Mrs. Moody used to bring kids in with her when she came to school because she drove to school. And she was around the Reach, around the--it was last reactor. And Old Town used to be there. The whole town used to be on the river at one time. But they moved it away because I think they were progressing. People were moving in, spreading out. Orchards were filling in. And I think that's why they probably moved the town. But we had a movie theater. We had a movie theater. And somebody from the Tri-Cities came over with a movie. In the summertime, we had a movie once a week, probably in the evening early, about seven. And then, in the wintertime, it was kind of hit and miss whenever they could get over or whatever, I don't know. I can't remember. But we did have movies there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Do you remember any movies that you saw over there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: No, I wouldn't remember that. I probably wouldn't even have understood it. But it wasn't anything that was offensive because they didn't do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Where was the movie theater in relationship to some of the other businesses-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Okay, across the street from Reierson's Grocery, and also across the cross street where the railroad came to fill the cars, that was right across the street from Reierson's Grocery as you come in to White Bluffs. Then there was a main drag. And there was a railroad hotel there, because they had railroad workers that, when they went out to do things to the railroad--the rails out there--they had to have people. And then they also rented to other people if they came in and there was a room empty. And it was right across the street from Reierson's Grocery from this one that's burned off. And behind there was a building. And that's where they had the movie theater. And it was just an old building, I don't know. It had seats in it--not wonderful, but seats. And then they had a balcony on it, too, so that was good. Kids would go up there and of course, you know. One time we had some holy rollers in there that rented it. [LAUGHTER] And they were rolling around on the floor. And my brother and his buddies were up there taking toilet paper, throwing rolls down there. They were all in little--I don't know, rolling around. [LAUGHTER] The Spirit moved them, I guess. Boy, they got in trouble for that. [LAUGHTER] But it was used for a lot of things. If they had a community meeting or something, they'd either use it, the high school or that little building, depending on what it was about. Sometimes it was a farm meeting, or a new spray that was coming out, or what they should do and shouldn't do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Mm-hm. I was going to ask you about any community events that you remember, either picnics, or Fourth of July things, or boat races-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Boat races we had right there. They did not start in Tri-Cities. They started at White Bluffs. It was wonderful. Mr. Kilian used to slice his big watermelons and sell them for $0.05. [LAUGHTER] Pop English used to sell his ice cream cones. Oh, and the Ladies Aid always had something going--cookies or something or a bake sale. And it was just a fun time. And we had a band. We used to gather up a band and have music there. It was pretty good. And in the spring, we always had a little May Day thing. And we had a maypole. And they would twine the strings around it like they do. And we had a program--quite a program--at the high school. And we had one that we were in that was the doll dance. And Alice Beyers was supposed to be the French lady who had the dolls. And so we had these cute little dresses on, little ballerina-type dresses. And she would come around and wind us up. That was the first start of it, and we danced to the tune, the doll dance. [AUDIO OUT] old, old, tune. And each one of us she wound up. And we started dancing. And we would dance around this maypole. And that was part of the program. And we had--oh, I remember my sister had a reading. "I want to live in the house by the side of the road, and be a friend of man," is the way it goes. And each stanza ends with that. And every single--my mother tutored her, her teacher tutored her--and at the end of every one of those stanzas when she got up there, "I want to live in the house by the side of the road and be friendly with men." It brought down the house, of course. Oh, my mother was so embarrassed. She was so embarrassed. [LAUGHTER] So when she-later in life--when she had a beautiful garden and a family of her own, I found that on a plaque that you put out in your garden, an open book with this on it in a plaque form. And it said, "I want to live in the house by the side of the road and be a friend to man." [LAUGHTER] I said, this is for old memories, Helen, and she laughed. She had a good laugh out of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier your Sunday school dress. What church did you go to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, I think at that--first, we went to the Presbyterian, but then they closed that. But then we went to the little Lutheran church I think was up in back of the bank. And we went there for a while. But my dress was always a mess. I come home with licorice all over it because, of course, I had to stop and take one of those pennies, buy a licorice at Pop English's drugstore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Do you remember any other churches in the community? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I do not. I don't remember that there was Catholic church there. I don't remember that there was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I wonder—I know that the Wanapum people were in the area. I wonder if you have any memories of the Wanapum Indians, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, yes. We had--I don't know that they--they were Johnny Buck's Indian tribe. My brother knew Frank Buck. He had two wives. One was old and had white hair, and her name was Deloria. And I don't remember the other one. But they were fine people. They came in and they would gather fruit off the ground because it was ready to dry. They would catch fish out of that river and smoke it and just grab your nose and want you to go down there and have some. And they were just fine people. They came in usually before cherries--you would see them before cherries--and then you would see them every day out in the orchards. And nobody ever charged anybody for that. They could have all they wanted. And my mother actually learned to dry fruit. And oh, that smelled good, just waft up and grab you by the nose. And they put it in little, thin sheets like cheesecloth. They'd make a rack with willows--make a rack, weave it, and put it between maybe stumps of willows, little tiny seedling willows that were coming up. And they would make these racks. And they would put this cheesecloth over it to keep the flies away. And they would dry it. And they would dry fruit all summer long--peaches, cherries, apricot, apples, everything. And they taught my mother that if you soak them just a few minutes in saltwater, they will not turn brown. And they won't salt the fruit. And so she learned how to do that. And the fish—oh! When they smoked that fish, you wanted to go down there and just have some. It just smelled delicious. They had a mixture they mixed up to put on it so it wouldn't dry it out. And they would take the whole bone out of it. They'd slice it. They take the scale off, the skin off, and the ribs out. And they would place that between these same little cloths and dry it. And they would smoke it from beneath and they'd keep that just really low. Oh, you could smell it all over the valley. You'd just--oh! And it was delicious. They did a good job. And they were interesting. Interesting, interesting people. And you know it was a good [AUDIO OUT] for kids. I remember my brother used go up, 14 or 15 years old, he and his two buddies Leo and Louie Russo--Leo Goodner and Louie Russo- and they'd go up to Saddle Mountain, take a little flour and little baking powder and maybe some salt and some lard. And they'd go up there and stay for a couple days. Nobody thought anything of it. There was a little spring up there and it was always green. And they'd just camp out and snare a rabbit or whatever. They just couldn't--they just loved it. Usually he went in good weather, yes. But we didn't have bad weather in summertime. But you wouldn't let a 14-year-old kid out now, three of them all by themselves? [LAUGHTER] But they had wonderful times. And it was a good place to raise kids, and it was good place to be raised, too. Really good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: I want to ask you about the sheriff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, Roy Bean was a fine man. I think I told you about him coming to get the boys to take the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: You did before we started recording on the film-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, he was a deputy sheriff out of the Tri-Cities. And I think the main thing--the office was up in probably Yakima, I'm not sure. But he had two little girls. And Roberta went to school with me. And Loretta came along later. She was younger by a couple of years. But he came to our house one morning, and he--we were just up. Dutch wasn't up yet, my brother. But he said, I wonder, is Virgil up yet? And he said, no, he said, but I'll go get him. He said, what's he done now? And he says, he's sure going to get it if he's gotten into trouble. And he says, now I want you to understand. He says, there's nothing going to be trouble about this, Joe. He says, I want you to go get him up. He says, his two buddies are in my car. And, he says, we're going to do a little favor for some people. And he said, I don't want any repercussions about this. I don't want any questions about it. If I hear of any beatings about this, he says, I will deal with it. And my dad went in and got Dutch up. And he came out and got in the car. He was dressed. And they went up to the packing house, which is right across from Reierson's Grocery. And he says, now, we're going to go get that car, which you pushed down this incline last night and released the brake. And he says, we're going to push it back up that slight hill. It was probably down there about seven, eight blocks. Well, it was uphill, now. It wasn't so easy. But, he says, I'll help you with the brake here. And he said, we'll keep this released. And he said, we'll push this back up. So he got those three boys--probably 14, 15 years old--to push that car about seven or eight blocks up to be iced. And he came home. He was pretty sweaty and he was pretty tired. And he wanted some breakfast. [LAUGHTER] But nothing was ever mentioned about it. And he was a fine man. He knew how to handle people. And he wasn't out there to bully anybody or--and later, he came to a family reunion. We called him up and invited him, because we knew he'd lived in Milton-Freewater, him and his wife. And, of course, Roberta-I kept track of Roberta because she moved here. That was his oldest daughter. And so I was glad to meet them. And we invited him to the get-together. And he mentioned that. And he laughed about it to Dutch. Dutch was a little uneasy when he thought we were going to invite the Beans. [LAUGHTER] And I said, he made a good joke out of it. He says, I've used that a lot of times, he said, on how to and how not to. And he said, you turned out pretty good. He says, turned out pretty good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Someone else I wanted to ask you about-- when we were talking earlier, you were mentioning a man named Ellis John-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, Ellis John was an interesting person. He lived down in old town in just one of the abandoned buildings. He had been on some kind of a merchant ship. And somebody on that ship that worked with him attacked him. And he was beating on him, and he killed him. And so they sent him to a penitentiary. It was a kind of an accidental killing. He didn't mean to but he was really--that's what I got out of it. But he lived there. He came to White Bluffs because it was such a nice little town. He came through there and he liked it. And he was an artist, a real artist. He did pictures of people. And he would make a few bucks, did paintings of them. And when I had my 10th birthday--my mother used to leave vegetables and fruit on his porch because she knew he didn't have a garden. And she always left vegetables and fruit if we had extra--because we always had extra--on his porch because he was kind of a recluse. But he would come out and talk to you. He was pleasant. And when I had my 10th birthday, my folks bought Muriel Beldin’s girl's bike for me to ride. And it was a smaller bike. And he painted roses on the fenders of that blue and white bike. And I had the prettiest bike in town when I moved to Walla Walla. [LAUGHTER] So I always remembered him because I was fascinated with--in fact, I took art in school because I was so fascinated with him. He would sit there and sketch somebody and--right in front of your eyes-- and make it live. And you wondered how he did that. He used charcoal a lot, and pen and ink, and paint. Just-- and I always felt bad because his life was kind of wasted there. He could've been--I mean he could make a likeness of anybody perfectly. But he chose to be there because we accepted him, and we respected his privacy. He had been through a lot. And I don't think he was a murderous person. I think it was something that happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So when and why did your family leave White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, in 1937, Hitler was very busy. And by 1941, he was even busier. And in June--in April of 1941, we moved to Walla Walla. My dad says, there's going to be some military. He says, you can bet your sweet life. He says, it's big enough to have some military. And he said, I want to be where there's some jobs. And so we moved to Walla Walla. And there was a veterans' hospital here and he was a veteran. And he said, I just think it'd be better, because they had surveyed our area in 1937, '36 or '37, I'm not sure which. But we kept surveyors at our house, so we knew they were surveying for something. And it took them, oh, a couple years to survey all that area that they were looking at. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: But you didn't know what they were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: They didn't even know what they were surveying for. They were hired by the United States government. And they were employees of the United States government. So we kept Mama and Daddy Redd, we called them. And they were nice people. They had no children, and they just loved us. They just--she taught us really good things, things that we hadn't learned from our mom. Mama didn't know how to make fudge. She'd never had that much sugar to spare in her life. [LAUGHTER] So we all learned how to make fudge and penuche and good stuff from Ma Redd. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So you knew they were working for the government, but you didn't know-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We didn't know. They didn't know. But they were there about, I would say, two years. So I associate it with the Manhattan Project because it's a logical. Hitler was busy. Oh boy, was he busy. So I don't know. It might have been, it might not have been. We thought it was an irrigation project. We were so excited, because an irrigation project [AUDIO OUT] would have given us more, see, I mean, you could have irrigated more land. But-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So how were you when you left White Bluffs and you moved-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I had my 11th birthday here. It was in the spring of 1941. And we didn't have war until 1941, December 7. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So as a 10- and 11-year-old girl, what did you think of leaving White Bluffs and moving to Walla Walla? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Oh, I thought I was going to die. For one thing, they had a Holstein cow over at Margaret Stearns's where we lived in her little house when we came here. And my father took care of her yard and milked her cow and separated the milk. It was a Holstein cow. That's like skim milk. I didn't drink milk for a year. I couldn't handle it. I mean, we were used to--we had cream on top of the milk. And then we sold half of it to the little dairy. And, I says, this is what we slop the pigs with. I'm not drinking this. And they worried about me--I wasn't drinking milk. But it was probably better for me, but I wasn't used to it. I wasn't used to it. The Scandinavian blood in me calls for that milk with the fat in it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Did you keep in contact with the people from White Bluffs after you moved here to Walla Walla? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I knew Bonnie Morris was here, and her sister, Ruth--her sister-in-law, Ruth. They were both Morris girls. And I don't think they were sisters. I think they were cousins because we had two Morris families there. But Ruth went to school with my sister Dorothy at White Bluffs High School. And I went to school with Bonnie Morris, who went to White Bluffs Grade School. And I'll tell you what, I was sure jealous of that girl. She could do handstands and cartwheels all around the White Bluffs Grade School and not stop. She could do a flip over and throw herself up and come down on her feet. And I just--I was just amazed. She was a couple years older than me, or I thought she was. But I don't think so. I think she was probably close to my age. She probably--maybe it was one year. But she was a fantastic athlete. Even the boys envied her. I mean, she could just flip around like a circus performer. And here I was, a tomboy, but not delightful with things like gymnastics. There was always somebody we envy when we were kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So in 1943, a couple years after you moved away, the federal government came in and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Cleaned out everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: --everybody had to leave. Did you hear about that from people you used-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: My sister was living there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, she was, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: She was living in the Johnson place. She said nobody ever came and got the beautiful antiques she had upstairs. She had a teapot that came over on the Mayflower. The legs were--it was a silver teapot, and the legs were actually worn completely off. And it had the Ford name on it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So which sister was this, then, who had-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: That was Dorothy, my oldest sister that I love so much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: And why had she stayed there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: She stayed there because she had husband who was a truck driver. And she was expecting her first baby and didn't really know what else to do. And he was gone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Was this someone she had met in White Bluffs, then, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: She met him in Kennewick. She was working at Kennewick General Hospital at the time. And she met Vern Fouracre. And they got married at our house. In fact, we chivareed them at our house. And that was probably when--I was 13 when I was an aunt, so Colleen was born in '43. And she wasn't born there. She was born—she was pregnant when she was there but she was born after that. And that's when they moved them out. They had to move everybody out. And I always wondered whatever became of Mrs. Johnson's beautiful things, because they were museum things. They should've been in a museum. They shouldn't have been in an attic. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Right. Where did your sister and her husband go, then, when they had to leave? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, they went back to Kennewick. And Colleen was born in Kennewick. Was born in--[AUDIO OUT] Then she came to Walla Walla. And she had a little boy a year or two later. She had four. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Have you ever gone back to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: We went to the Hanford-White Bluffs picnics, I think, four or five times. And then, of course, the people who were doing the arranging for it--Annette Hereford and I can't remember the other boy. I can't remember the boy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Man off-camera: Bob Grisham, maybe? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I believe, I believe. They graduated high school with Dorothy. And they just were getting too old to do that. And it was hard thing. And people were dying off. But Alice Moody was at the last one. I was, too. And I loved seeing her. And I knew her immediately. She looked just like herself, just exactly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: So when you went to the reunions, it usually was a picnic, right, at the park, Howard Amon Park. Did you also do a tour-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Mm-hm. We did, we did. We could take our car in. First time, I think they had a bus for people who had no transportation, because the Tri-Cities had--they were old. Some people weren't driving anymore. So they evidently had acquired a bus for some that couldn't. And whoever had room in cars, we took them. But ours was always full because our kids were just fascinated by this. And we went to the dinners, little banquets that we had you. Mr. Reierson was there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: What did you think when you had a chance to go back and see the land, the area where-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Broke my heart. Just broke my heart. We had a hard time finding--we wouldn't have found where our house was, except there was a water tank associated with this pump. And it set out front. It was made--and a lot of the people had them. Some of them had brick with a liner in it. But this one was cement and was kind of cone-shaped, and evidently was a holding tank for the house, or whatever. I don't know, I'm not sure. But it was there. And that was still there. They hadn't knocked that down. That's the only way--and it set up on a hill. It was the first row of hills as you came down toward the river--dropped down the river to Old Town. And so, that was how we found it. But there wasn't any stumps of trees left. There wasn't anything left. They actually had the crew of conscientious objectors at McNeil Island come down and cut the trees and the wood out of there, and took it back for fuel by truckloads. And that was the last, just before they released--they were already starting to build the reactors and things and dig the systems underneath, and storage thing under the--But it was a wonderful place to grow up, and I don't know that they'll ever get it cleaned up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Anything that we haven't talked about yet in terms of White Bluffs, any stories or events that stand out that we haven't had a chance to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I just think it was the best place to the world to raise kids because there was a community spirit-- that I never saw favoritism. I never saw belligerence about minding rules. I always saw a humanitarianism. If you knew that your husband or your neighbors or anybody was having a problem, you didn't make it your business. You didn't gossip about it. It wasn't a usual. It was more of any empathy, more of a sympathetic, let's just do what we can for them. I never saw the malice toward anybody because they were poor or maybe did something wrong. If there was a wrong committed, it was straightened out and talked about by the two people that did it. And it was left alone. And they had a tavern there. [AUDIO OUT] And, even there, it was not tolerated for people to act like a bunch of savages or fights or--It was a place to go have a cold beer if you wanted one, but I don't remember a lot of drunkenness or--I don't think he would have--Harry somebody was his name. It ended up two people owned it, but I can't remember what their name was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, the tavern? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: And we were gone, but they told us about it. And I can't remember, but that was the last of it. And it was just a little tavern. I probably, I don't know--it was probably four or five little tables and maybe a row along the bar. I remember standing out there one time because my dad went in to have a beer with a friend. And I said, well I'll wait out here and eat this ice cream cone from Pop English. [LAUGHTER] I knew what to do with it. He was a fine man. He actually organized the White Bluffs band. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Oh, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: The high school band. And he made room for everybody. Everybody had-- Ola Meeks could do the baton twirl, and she taught two other girls to do that. And they had white pants with a--it's either black or navy blue stripe down the side--and a white shirt, just a plain little white shirt. The girls wore a white blouse. And everybody had a part in high school band. And they went up to Yakima and they took first place. That little-- and competing against Kennewick, Pasco? It was amazing! Somewhere we have a picture, and I don't have the picture. I can't find it. [LAUGHTER] But Dorothy just loved it. She played a drum, and she just loved it. And they did a good job. No, it was a fine place to grow up. And it was sad, because it really was a neighborhood community. And there were people who had plenty, I mean, they had--there were well-to-do people there. But they didn't flaunt it. They were no different when they went to the Grange meeting. Or whether they were entertaining, it was not—there was not any class distinction. And especially at school I noticed it. That's unusual. That's unusual. And we welcomed it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us come here and talk to you today, and for sharing your memories-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: Well, you use what you can. I know you you'll cut, because, of course, you can't. You have to do what you have to do. But I know that people are going to give you some wonderful stories, stories about how they were accepted. And I'm sure every one of those people that you interview will tell you the same thing, that it was a wonderful community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Bauman: Thanks again very much. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX45489217"> Reid: I appreciate your coming. </div> Location The location of the interview Yakima, Washington Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 227 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Boehmer, Dorothy Boehmer, LaVonne Boehmer, Helen Boehmer, Virgi Boehmer, Darlene Ford, Henry Borden, Patsy Moody, Alice Bean, Roy John, Ellis Fouracre, Vern Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leatris Reid Description An account of the resource An interview with Leatris Reed conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/27/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Walla Walla (Wash.) swimming Walla Walla (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fed25944dab4903146b0422e355ce7f2d.jpg 4c5ec9de7b2c58b0a02aa1b112e4fdb8 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbac10c255985e6bd8454dc3880c7a868.mp4 0536d4ccbf8f9f6ffa0583d6596b8741 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Petty, Bob Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. My name's Robert Bauman. And I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Bob Petty. Today is July 10th of 2013, and the interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Petty about his experience working at the Hanford site. So, Mr. Petty, if it's okay with you, I'd start with how and why you came to Hanford, where you came from, and when. Robert Petty: My mother and father came from Arkansas. My dad came in August of '43, my mother in 1948. And I was born and raised here, born in 1948. And I--well, I'm retired from the Department of Energy. I first started working out here at the age of 11. Bauman: Okay. Petty: My father was in transportation. He would put me in the trunk of his car. And since his brother, my uncle, was a security patrolman, would wave me on through, or wave my dad on through. And this went on for several years. And my dad kept me hidden for those two years. And on numerous occasions, kind of a funny type of note, people had hit deer and killed them. Of course, my dad being the back woodsman that he used to be, stopped and put the deer in the car. And one particular time, I was in the trunk with that deer. And I am screaming, I want to go home, I want to go home. Well, we didn't go home. But I was a laborer. Helped build WNP out here for the nuclear plants, and decontamination and decommissioning of numerous reactor facilities. Pump houses, power stations, and things of that nature. There were some good times and some bad times. The controls that what I would expect I don't think were in place. And starting in 1971, we started doing D&D, and I was allowed to go anywhere I wanted, with the exception of in the reactor facility itself. And we did go into some potential hotspots. And at no time were we told to wear a mask or have a dosimeter. And at no time—all I had was just a badge that had Bechtel on it. And so nobody ever told us to--you know, working around the asbestos—of which I have asbestos-related disease—that you need to protect yourself from not only asbestos, but from potential chemicals, maybe radioactive contaminants and things of that nature. And so I eventually went to work for the Department of Energy in 1990? '91? '91. And I retired as a management analyst due to my health. And then shortly thereafter, I went to work as a senior technical advisor for CH2M Hill. Bauman: I'm going to ask you to go back a little bit- Petty: Sure. Bauman: And go back to the stories first of as an 11-year-old, your dad taking you out to the site. So he was in transportation? Petty: Yes. Bauman: And do you know--so he came during the war, correct? Petty: Mm-hm. Bauman: How did he—from Arkansas. Do you know he heard about Hanford--? Petty: Well he--my dad originally was in the Civilian Conservation Corps in central Arkansas. And he had heard about this place out in the desert. And when he got here, I do remember him telling me--he passed away in '82, that, oh my god, what have I got myself into. It is hot. There are windstorms that you just couldn't believe how bad they were. And so he came up here. My mother and father were married at the time. And my mother did come out several times, and then went back home, and eventually settled out here later. And so he was a truck driver, then a bus driver. And then after my mother moved out here, she worked out here from '48 to I think about 1950, working next to a hot box. And she became contaminated. And she eventually died of lung cancer, bone cancer, skin cancer, and multiple myeloma. But when she was contaminated, she was pregnant with me. And I am involved in litigation over this. But trying to prove something is not easy. Bauman: Where was she working at the time? Petty: She was working in the 3--I think the 300 Area. I don't remember which building it was. I am not positive the location, but I think it was there. Bauman: And what was her job? Petty: I really don't know. No, I couldn't say that for sure. My mom has been dead for a number of years. And so there's a lot of questions you don't get to ask that you would like to have asked. Bauman: And you were born in '48? Petty: Yes, November of '48. Bauman: And did you have other siblings? Petty: Yes, I have three sisters. Four sisters, one is gone. So I have three remaining sisters. And one now works at Oak Ridge, and I have two that live—one in Pasco, one in Kennewick. Bauman: And when your dad first came to work here, he came basically by himself? Your mom would come visit sort of, and then-- Petty: Yes, yes. Bauman: And did they have any kids at that point, or it was just the two of them? Petty: No, no. My oldest sister wasn't born until June of 1944. But my mother had went back home, then came back numerous times. Bauman: When your mom was working here, and you said she had symptoms of being exposed, did she know what she was working with at the time, do you know? Petty: Not really. And now there are procedures in place where if a woman is pregnant or think they may be pregnant, they're not allowed to go in any potential hotspots. That was not the case back then. Bauman: So your father would basically sort of smuggle you, I guess you could say, into the site? Petty: Lack of a better word, yes. Bauman: With the help of your uncle. Petty: Yes. Bauman: So what would you do when he got to work with you, then? What did you do during-- Petty: My dad originally started out as a house mover. And one of my particular jobs was I'd get underneath the house and cut the piping loose, take all the asbestos off of the piping, snakes, cats, dogs, dead or alive, indifferent. And odd jobs around that he thought I could do, and so—oh yeah. Bauman: So what houses were you moving? Petty: Back in those days, most of them were structural wood buildings from the Hanford site to whoever wanted to buy them. Bauman: So houses that were on the Hanford site, had been there prior to the war? Some of the older houses? Petty: There may have been several, but most of them were either on-site or from Camp Hanford. Bauman: Oh, okay. And so his job was to move those off. Petty: Right, correct. Bauman: You crawled under— Petty: And there are many, many of those still around today. Bauman: And so how long did you do that? Petty: Up until after my dad passed away 1982, I decided to sell the remaining equipment and what we had. I didn't want anything to do with that portion of the business. And so from then, I started going back to school. And I have numerous college degrees. And so eventually I went to work for the Department of Energy. Bauman: So when you were 11 and 12 and out onsite helping your dad, were there other workers there who knew you were there? Petty: My dad tried to keep me isolated. There were the people around, and they knew what was going on. But they didn't say anything. And there was kind of some camaraderie—you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. And so they didn't say anything. Bauman: So you were born in '48. Did your family live in Richland, then? Petty: Yes. Originally came to Pasco, lived in Sunnyside, then shortly moved on to Richland. Bauman: And where in Richland did you live in the '40s and '50s? Petty: I think it was 1311 Marshall. Bauman: And what was Richland like at the time as a sort of place to grow up? Petty: Richland, since August of '43 through December of 1958 I think it was, was a government town. And they came in and said, you're going to do what we tell you to do. And since this is a government town, secrecy was of utmost importance. And I didn't remember a whole lot about that per se. But I do remember numerous times where we had to duck and cover in grade school. And we had drills and things of that nature. But on the whole, I do remember Richland being very hot, maybe because there were hardly any trees. And there was so much construction going on around Richland, new homes being built. Bauman: My sense is that people, workers, families, came from a lot of different places. Was that sort of true? Did you experience that the families that you knew, friends growing up, that they had come from all over the United States? Petty: My dad did tell me when he first came out here there were people from all over the nation, just about every state in the union. And the men stayed in the men's barracks and the women stayed in the women's barracks even though they may have been married, until their name came up for a house. And times like that were very tough on my mother and father. And I do remember meeting numerous people when I was young telling me that they were from maybe New York or Connecticut or something like that. Yeah. Bauman: And when you were growing up, do you remember any special community events, parades, any of those sorts of things in Richland? Frontier days? Petty: I do have pictures of parades. And I have a book from Richland--or Hanford, Hanford Days, Richland Days, I think it is. And it shows parades in there also. And I do have several pictures of parades that we had here in town. And so those were good times. Played Little League baseball, we formed a baseball team and didn't do very well. But on the whole, I think pretty much the only thing we did was--well in summertime—was go swimming. They had a small pool in Howard Amon. But for the most part, we didn't do very much. Bauman: Okay, let's talk more about the work you did at Hanford. When did you start working at Hanford? Not with your father, but-- Petty: I first started in earnest--I became a laborer in the local laborers here in town. And went to work at FFTF back around '70, the early '70s. And some things that went on, I won't say on camera, because they're not very nice. And when FFTF was first started, it was projected to be about $79 million in costs. And that particular job, being a cost plus contract, ended up being almost $800 million, which you see today, in fact. And my job was just basically a laborer. A broom, shovel, hammer. Bauman: During construction--? Petty: Yeah. And it was not uncommon at all to have six or eight laborers on a one-man job. That was very common. Bauman: And that was--you were working for what contractors? Petty: Working for Bechtel, Chicago Bridge & Iron. Yes. I think Mellon brothers. Bauman: And that was in the early 1970s. Petty: Yes. Bauman: And then earlier, you had mentioned going places--you said you were allowed to go sort of anywhere, no dosimeter. Could you talk a little bit more about that, like what sorts of places you were talking about? Petty: A lot of the buildings that you see--or have seen in the past, you'll see pictures of them, many times there was as much below ground as there is above ground, like in the water treatment facility, for instance. We would go down below ground and take out all the scrap iron and stuff like that, all the wiring, all the piping. There were wells, numerous wells around those sites that we went in. And they had a thick brass shaft. We would go down into the well and cut that off and scrap the brass out. And there were numerous of those around. Bauman: And this was sort of all over different places on the site? Petty: Yes, yes. And so subsequently, the--I was young, but--and then when I became a laborer, and we pretty much just had the free run of all the facilities, with the exception of the reactor itself. And at no time did I ever think I was in danger. I was born here, lived here, raised here, and worked here. I have no problems going out there today. Bauman: Now I know, especially during the war and early Cold War years, security obviously was very tight. You had to ride in the trunk of your dad's car to get through. When you were actually a laborer, was there still a lot of security? Did you have to have any special clearances, anything along those lines? Petty: There was security, but since my dad was a private contractor, no. Although you had to go through a checkpoint—several checkpoints in fact, entering and leaving. And they would check your vehicle for maybe any contraband, drugs, weapons, or alcohol. And if your car did not have a sticker on it, it had to be searched. But since my dad at times had special privileges, was not. And so here's a little story that—I put myself through school. And I was working weekends, but working full-time here. And I gave a tour to a group of senior citizens from Boston. And I got everybody on the bus, and a little old lady with a cane sat up next to me and we got to talking. And she says oh goody, I want you to take me out and show me where the cowboys can shoot the Indians. And she actually believed that they did that today out here. And she asked me what kind of work I did. And I says, well, this is a former nuclear weapons plant. Well, what do they do out here? Well I said, they made plutonium production for nuclear weapons. And she got up and moved to the back to the bus. And that paradigm has not changed in many people's minds. And so they still have a perception of if they get anywhere near here, they may become contaminated. Potentially, maybe yes. But highly unlikely. Highly unlikely. And so I had the perception when I worked out there I'm not going to get contaminated, or I'm not going to get sick or something like that. Well, I was wrong. But I have no compunction about going in places like that. Bauman: So you worked for Bechtel. And then in '91 you moved to DOE? Is that right? Petty: Yes. Bauman: Okay. And what sorts of work did you do there? Petty: I started in procurement, since I have a procurement degree, working contracts. And after three years there, I moved to the different side of the house. Worked on environmental safety and health as a management analyst. And I was more of a technical person, wrote, maybe, technical reports, read them, made recommendations to the assistant manager, who was the boss of my director. And although I have numerous college degrees, I am not a scientist or anything like that. I'm more of basically just a paper pusher. Bauman: When you were working out at the site, were there ever any sort of events that stand out in your mind or things that happened? Fires, or anything--incidents like that, I guess. Petty: I was involved in a very serious accident in which my dad was demolishing and standing too close to a building. And I don't know if you've seen a very, very old silent movie where a silent film screen star was standing in a building and the entire wall just came over on top of him. But he was standing in the doorway, and it missed him. And that's what happened to me. The entire wall came down, and I was standing right in the doorway, and it missed me with the exception of one of the beams had come down and caught me on the head. And I have permanent damage as a result of that. There was a very large fire here which I think covered about 240,000 acres at one time. On national news, people had the perception of this is going to be the end of the Tri-Cities if something goes wrong. Well, nothing was going to go wrong. And there are too many protections in place, and these buildings are too well-fortified to have anything escape. Bauman: The incident where the wall fell down around you, how old were you at the time of that event? Petty: I was about 15--16, something like that, yeah. Child labor laws weren't very stringent then. And so I think people got away with a lot more than they should have. Not only with work environment, but it's also--if I can put this very delicately--men living in men's barracks and my mom living in the women's barracks, and there was a barbed wire fence separating them. And my dad told me that the only way that they had relations was through a barbed wire fence. And during the day, they didn't see each other very often. But they would go to dances, and maybe occasionally a vacation. But I don't remember any of those. Petty: Did your dad have any other stories about his time here before your mom was here permanently? Bauman: You know, I remember when my mom came up--well, she went back home numerous times in the '50s. And everything she cooked was fried. Fried everything. And she would take the grease and make into gravy, and I thought that was the best food in the world. But now my veins kind of cringe. And that was the way—predominantly, I think, a lot of the diet that people had back then. But I do remember catching several rattlesnakes out here when I was young, at a young age. Which—I don't remember playing with them, I do remember catching them. And I would just let them go. Bauman: President Kennedy visited the Hanford site in 1963. Petty: Correct. Bauman: The NPR. I wonder if--you would have been 15 at the time, roughly? Petty: Yes, I was 15 at the time. At the time I seen him, he was maybe 40 feet away. And of course my mom thought he was the best-looking man she'd ever seen. And I thought it a very, very interesting, very cool, you know, I get to see the President of the United States. Which he wasn't the first--or he was the first, but he was not the last. But overall, I thought John Kennedy was very, very likable. Bauman: What else do you remember about that day or him being here at the time? Petty: When he first arrived, I looked out there and I'd seen a mass of people. And I do remember first thinking, all these people can't be here for the president. But they were. And I really didn't grasp the ramifications of maybe his political influence being the president. And I really wasn't interested in that type of thing when I was growing up. And it kind of dawned on me that this is important. He's a very important man, one of the most important men in the world. And so that had kind of a profound effect on me, and I eventually went into--took government courses in school. Bauman: Any other times when you were working there at Hanford that you remember dignitaries coming, or other presidents or anything like that? Petty: We were working on-site one particular day. And somebody was using a cutting torch, and we had started a fire. It was during the summertime. And tremendous amount of cheatgrass around. And I do remember we had started a fire, and it got out of control very quickly. And I thought the building that we were working on was done. But luckily, we got the fire department there in time. And it had consumed several acres and a portion of the building that we were working on, but we ended up saving it. A little scary. Bauman: About when would that have been, roughly? Petty: '72. Yeah. Bauman: And what area of the site might that have been? Petty: That was 200 West, I think. Yes. Bauman: Overall, how would you describe Hanford as a place to work? Petty: In the '40s, '50s, '60s, there was a mindset that it was just a job. And even when I worked out here in the '70s and '80s, I felt it was just a job. And then when I went to work for the Department of Energy, the mission had changed from nuclear production to cleanup. And so to kind of put it in perspective, my grandfather worked out here, my dad worked out here, his brother—in fact all his brothers, all his sisters, all their kids, my sisters. And people have the perception of, well, I'm from here. All my relatives worked out here. Well, you owe me this job. Well, that's not true. And when I worked at DOE, the manager came in one day and we had an all-employees meeting. And he said, all you employees are very well-educated, make very good money, have numerous college degrees. We do not owe you a job. And that's true. And I feel that's the same way here at Hanford. We do not owe them a job. Most of those people are very well-educated. And so in the next 20 years, things are going to be ramping down, probably more so than they are now. And today's paper said that one firm here in town was going to be reducing their staff by 90%. And I think people need to become aware well, the well is going to run dry. It was good while it lasted. And I made very good money here. And I knew my time wasn't going to be here forever. But people I think need to change their paradigms, and I certainly changed mine. And we had some very, very good times out here, and a few bad. And since we have changed to environmental cleanup, everything we do is scrutinized. And from if you spill a quart of gasoline or paint, it has to be written up and you have to make a report. Just to give you an idea of--very, very stringent. Bauman: When did you notice that change? Was it when it shifted from production to cleanup more, or was it--? Petty: I think I first started to know the change about 1988, I think it was, when they first--what happened at Chernobyl. I think that was a major turning point. And then they seen the similarities between Chernobyl versus the N Reactor. Although I don't think that could have happened at the N Reactor. And I think from that point on, from the point they shut it down here at the N Reactor, they started to focus more on environmental cleanup. Bauman: I want to go back a little bit and ask you a little bit more. One of your first jobs was working FFTF? Petty: Mm-hm. Bauman: That became somewhat of a controversial facility, to a certain extent. Petty: Very much so. Not so much--well, it was a cost plus contract. Not so much during the construction and operation. In the initial operation it actually was never really used. There wasn't a whole lot of controversy. But the controversy came later when the government wanted to shut it down. And that's a tremendous amount of money just to let loose of. And it could have done a lot of good. But the government finally decided that it would be best if they shut it down. And a great number of people think it was political, which it may have been. I don't know. Although I'm going to keep my thoughts to myself, and I'm not going to say anything about that. Although when they did shut it down, I do remember doing a number of correspondence with different people from Washington, DC, here at the Hanford site and at DOE here regarding to the FFTF. Bauman: I wonder for--you said things have changed, obviously, at Hanford site over the years. And I wonder for future generations, people 20 years from now or 50 years from now, what would you like them to know about working at the Hanford site, what it was like? Petty: Well going back to 1943 when the site was first picked, this isn't something they had ever done before. And their number-one priority, number-one goal, was to end the war. And now their number-one priority is to clean up this mess. This isn't something they'd ever done before, either. This is the largest cleanup project in the world. And subsequently, I think that a lot of this new areas that they're going into is how do they clean up these certain types of chemicals or radiation or contamination. And there's so many things that they don't know and they don't know how to treat. They've never done it before, like the Vitrification plant. This is never something that they've done before. And they say it's going to work, take this liquid sludge and turn it into glass logs. It'll probably work, yes. But it's not something they've ever done before, and I think generations down the road need to realize that we cannot stop plutonium production. There are many, many environmental groups out there, but other countries in the world, all over the world, are now getting nuclear weapons power plants, the potential to produce nuclear weapons. It is not going to stop. And if we stop producing plutonium, uranium, for weapons, nuclear power plants for nuclear or electricity production, then if we're not moving ahead, then we're falling behind. And we are falling behind now, at least in my estimation. And so I think we need to change the paradigms of our youth that this can be a good thing, or it can be a bad thing. And if we make it safe enough, with the controls in place, there should be no problems. Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to talk about, or any other memories from your experiences working here that you-- Petty: No. Bauman: --want to share? Petty: Have you been on-site before? Bauman: Yes. Petty: Okay, so you kind of understand what's going on out there and the history portion. I do hope that the B Reactor museum comes to fruition, because I think we need to leave a legacy for our children and our grandchildren and generations farther down. And I think it's extremely important not to forget that, but also be respectful and mindful of what we did and hopefully never, never, ever again. Bauman: Well thank you very much for-- Petty: Sure. Bauman: --coming in and talking to us today. We really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:37:49 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2013 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Petty Description An account of the resource An interview with Bob Petty conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-7-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-19: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 300 Area Department of Energy Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) Secrecy Vitrification Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd3a31e8f531859f8cf4173f7e777e4cc.jpg 2a38262e6623571282c597a9daca931b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c6061bb308050f0219a8db9b6ffcf03.mp4 98f9b422199605caf34957b60917b70d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Petersen, Gary Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Petersen_Gary Gary Petersen: Sure. This is easy. Robert Bauman: All right, let’s see. Petersen: Hair's combed, eyebrows are trimmed. Man One: Yeah, you sure do look pretty. Petersen: Actually I'd rather watch her than— [LAUGHTER] Petersen: Is that-- Bauman: Unfortunately, you're supposed to look at me, actually. Petersen: Oh. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Yeah, I’m sure. All right. Does that work there, on the mic? Woman One: Mm-hmm. Bauman: It’s okay? Man Two: Mm-hmm. Bauman: Okay. Man One: We can start whenever you’re ready. Bauman: All right. All set to go? Woman one: All set. Bauman: Excellent. All right. Well, Gary, I think we're ready to go. Petersen: Fire away. Bauman: All right. Well, let's start first by having you say your name and then spell it. Petersen: Okay. It's Gary Peterson G-A-R-Y P-E-T-E-R-S-E-N. That's important, the E. Bauman: Yes. You're right. My name's Robert Bauman and today's date is June 5th of 2014. And we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Gary, let's start with the beginning of your time here. Can you tell us about when you came to Hanford and Tri-Cities, what brought you here? Petersen: Well, that's a good question. [LAUGHTER] Okay. Actually, I came first in 1960, January, 1960, with the Nike Ajax Missile site at the top of Rattlesnake Mountain. And I was temporarily assigned up there--well I was assigned up there, but three times a day we'd get on the back of a two and a half ton truck and go down to the mess hall down below. And I knew I was going to die, so I asked be transferred to any place and I got sent to Korea. I said never come back to the Tri-Cities, but as you can see, I did. The second time, though, is probably the one you're after. I decided after the military that I needed to get an education, so I went to Washington State University and got a Communications degree with a minor in Electrical Engineering. I had a job with Ford Motor Company all lined up, but I wasn't too enthused about going to Detroit. That was January of 1965. And so my college professor, Chuck Cole said, gee, there's a new company opening up in Tri-Cities. Why don't you stop by? So I stopped by on a Friday, went to work on Monday with Battelle, which became Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. So there's how I got here. Bauman: So, that first time, in 1960, why did you want to transfer? Was it the ride down the mountain? Petersen: Three times a day with an 18-year-old driving, and you drop 2,000 feet, and at the bottom there's a 90 degree corner, 16 degree grade, and it was January. I knew that one of these was going to go off the road. So I said I've got to get out of here. So I put in request for transfer, and I transferred. Just like that. To Korea. Bauman: Right. During the first time here in 1960, did you spend any time in town? Petersen: We did, much different than--actually most of the servicemen, and there were quite a few of us at the four batteries, would go to--there was a bowling alley and a dance hall over in Kennewick, just off of Clearwater that was surrounded by fruit trees. Now all of that's gone and it's all businesses and so on. Clearwater's full, but at that time, it was all orchards. It was pretty nice. Bauman: What were your impressions of the place, other than not liking that ride down the mountain? Petersen: Well, you have to remember it was about like probably what the first military people saw when they came by here in December, January of 1943. I mean it was cold, it was brown. No trees. It was a barren place, even in 1959. So I can imagine what Colonel Mathias thought when first flew over this place. From the top of Rattlesnake, as you can imagine, you saw the entire Hanford site, so it was pretty barren and bleak. Bauman: Going back a little farther, where had you lived before this? Where did you grow up? Petersen: I graduated from Womack High School, which is up the Okanagan. I lived on an apple orchard. Again I was used to being around trees, and you come to the desert--I can imagine, any time between 1943 and 1959, ‘60, ‘61, ‘62, this was a pretty barren place. Bauman: And so in 1965, you took the job up at Battelle. Petersen: Yep. Bauman: What was the job? Petersen: The job to start with was a communications person. I became the manager of the news of service. The advantage I had was I got everywhere on the Hanford site, except the tank farms. I've stayed away from the tank farms successfully for a lot of years. But I spent a lot of time out on the hundred F reactor, which was the biology and aquatic biology site at the time. I got all over the site, including back up to the top of Rattlesnake Mountain a couple of times. So it was really pretty nice. Bauman: When you came back then, in '65, where did you live? Petersen: Lived originally in what were called the stilt apartments. They're on Jadwin. They've been fixed up since, so you would never know that they were stilt. Stilt, meaning that they actually had posts that held up the second floor. The posts were the garage for the people who lived there. But they're not far from the Chevron station, kind of in North Richland. Lived there for quite a while. And then the last of the homes that were built prior to 1958 went for sale. Those were called the Richland Village Homes. And there were two-bedroom and three-bedroom, either one-car garage attached or unattached. And they went up for sale for—I bought one—three-bedroom with a single car garage attached—for $6,200. Pretty good buy at the time, and I ended up paying less than I was for rent in the stilt apartments. I thought was pretty good deal. Bauman: What was the community of Richland like at the time in the mid-1960s? Petersen: The community was still just finding its way out of what I call the federal government ownership. In 1958, the city became an incorporated city again. And it was 1958 that the federal government to city back over to itself. And so between '58 and '65, it was a city that was still trying to find its way as a city, other than as a federal funded city. It was unique in that aspect. Battelle was well the first companies, too, to come in here—although it had a government contract, it was one of the few to come in here and be from the outside. Man, up until that point it was DuPont and then General Electric and then in 1965 is when the AEC decided to diversify the Hanford contract. They split it up into eight pieces, and so Battelle was one of those pieces. The others were HEHF and the operations and so on. There's been 35 contractors in here since 1965, and Battelle was one of the early ones. Bauman: Now, before your first arrival here in the 1960, the Ajax site, were you familiar with Hanford? Did you know what sort of work that was going on in Hanford? Petersen: Well, I did only because I spent some time up at Fairchild Air Force Base. They also had a Nike Ajax missile site. They were trying to transfer some people from Fairchild to Hanford. And so I learned a little bit about what Hanford was. The nice thing at the time is everybody--all the military guys said, oh, you're going to love the Tri-Cities because it's way warmer than Spokane. So I thought, sure, and then you come down in January and it was cold, at the top Rattlesnake you get winds up to a hundred miles an hour. It was not one of your pleasure spots at the time, but the view was great. View was great. Bauman: So, you knew something about Hanford at that point. Petersen: Knew that it was a military installation, federal installation. Knew that they made the material for the atomic bomb. Knew that there was a reason for the Nike Ajax missile site to be there, to protect the site. So, yes, that much we were pretty clear on, and the military took their job very seriously. There was a no fly zone over Hanford. No commercial flights, no flights of any kind other than military itself. It was pretty well protected. And on top of Rattlesnake, I might just add, that was the radar installation. It was at the highest point, so the radar reached a long way. You could see planes coming well, well in advance of them ever getting through to Hanford. What was interesting is sometimes we would notify Fairchild or McChord, and you'd actually have fighter jets intercept planes that wouldn't veer off. That was a unique feature of what you did on top of the mountain. The other sites, they had radar installations, but that one was pretty unique. That was pretty good. Bauman: Yeah. So in 1965 when you came and were working in communications, what sort of responsibilities did you have there? Petersen: Well, one of the assignments that was unique was to take tours to indoctrinate all new staff members, and that was for everywhere on the site. Over the years, I've taken literally thousands of people on tours over the site. At the time, it didn't seem like it was that great of a job to be able to take people around the site, explain what the reactors were, what the 100 Area, 200 Area, 300 Area, those kind of things. But as it turned out, the longer I did it the more I realized that the work that was going on here was critical. The Cold War, was still fairly active, so it became important to me to make sure that people understood what kinds of things went on here. It wasn't until later that I became interested in what happened pre-1943. As you keep tromping across the land, you start saying, oh, there were other things here too. But it was pretty good. Bauman: Those site tours for new employees, were they able to go pretty much everywhere on site? Petersen: We could go everywhere except into the area that had the plutonium, which is now known as the Plutonium Finishing Plant. Where there was restricted classified, the real concern was both tritium and plutonium. You couldn’t say the word tritium back in those days. You could plutonium, because they knew it was the material for the plutonium bomb, Fat Man, came from here. But tritium was something nobody talked about. And so those areas were restricted and that was mostly in the tank farm area. That was were chemical separations took place, so we stay away from those. It was okay by me. Bauman: Well, that does raise—obviously, security, safety were very important at Hanford. In what ways did security at Hanford impact your job? That's obviously one way. There's certain areas you couldn't go, right? Petersen: There were replaces you couldn't go. The badges--all of the badges at that time were designated to which areas you could or couldn't go. It was readily identifiable on your badge whether you were allowed into say, the 300 Area or the 100 Areas with reactors, or the 200 Area. And within them there were other exclusion zones, too. There were restrictions placed in each of those locations. Typically somebody that worked in 100 Area wouldn't ever be allowed into the 300 Area, or into the 200 Areas. The reactor areas were the 100 Area, the 300 Area was the research area, and the 200 Area was chemical separation. They were pretty segregated as to where you could go. Bauman: In communications you mentioned that you couldn't say the word tritium. Were there other things you couldn't talk about or write about? Petersen: You couldn't talk about quantities. As a matter of fact, there was a real restriction early on. One of the things that I found in the process of working in communication, there were nine production reactors around the Columbia River on the horn. In the summertime in particular there were periods where all nine reactors would be working. Sounds unique when you think about it today, but in the summertime June, July, August they actually measured the temperature of the Columbia River before the first reactor and after the last reactor. As I recall, if the Columbia River temperature was raised by close to ten degrees, then they would have to start shutting down the reactors, because the flow back into the Columbia River was that warm coming from reactor. In order to protect the fish and things in the river, then they really monitored the river very carefully. The reason I point that out is you also never talked about how much water went through those reactors because there was a fear that the Soviet Union could figure out the quantities of production simply by measuring the amount of water that went through those reactors, or the temperature increase from one point to another. It sounds odd today, but that was one of the strictures of what you could and couldn't talk about. It was a pretty quick--they were very careful about quantities. Bauman: And I assume that you had to, when you were hired, had to go through security clearance process--? Petersen: Q clearances were standard. There was one level above that that was called CRYPTO for a while. I don't know what happened on those, but that was for individuals who got around most of the site. They were a unique feature at that time. Bauman: Where was your office located? Where did you work out of? Petersen: Well my office moved all over. Originally it was in the old army headquarters—and this is in 1965. Battelle, when they first came in here, moved into a building that was called 3201. Later they changed it to the old office building—OSB was what it was called, old office building. But that was before the Battelle buildings were built, which became known as the Sand Castle. We lived and worked from January of 1965 until probably the spring of '66 before we moved into the new Battelle-owned buildings, the Sand Castle, which are on Battelle Boulevard now. And then later I moved out into the 300 area. I was in and out of 100F area. Those kind of places. So, yeah. How we doing? Bauman: You knew the site well. Petersen: Well, except for the 200 Area. That was a real restricted area, and maintained that for quite a number of years. Bauman: You talked about giving tours to new employees, sort of the indoctrination to the site. How about for dignitaries, government officials, did you do that? How about the general public? Petersen: The general public rarely, if never, I don't think we ever did that, but government official Catherine May was the first congresswoman I took through. She was a congresswoman from 8th District. I took Senator Magnuson through. Later Tom Foley, so quite a number of those over the years. In later years we started getting some foreign visitors, as well. But early years congressional officers, congressional staff, the governor. Dan—Governor—the name just few out of my head. The governor of the State of Washington, Dan--? Bauman: Evans. Petersen: Evans. Thank you. He later became also a senator from the state. He was a first governor that I helped escort across the site. Most of those, it was unique to be able to take visitors like that around the area. Bauman: Do any of those tours especially stand out? Were any officials particularly interested or excited about it? Are there any sort of strange stories from that? Petersen: [LAUGHTER] Well, Senator Magnuson was a unique individual. He actually came out quite a number of times. And one of those times we were in the 300 Area, and I was working at the time for Westinghouse, Westinghouse Hanford Company. He came out to actually, quote, break the ground on FFTF. We were in a building at the time, a four story office building in the 300 Area, and I'll never forget, I was assigned to make sure he got up to the podium. His vehicle came in front the building, and then drove around to the back of the building, so I ran back and met Magnuson back there. I'd known him before. Frankly, honestly, he was drunk as a skunk. I didn't think he was going to be able to make it. He says, just get me to the podium and I'll be fine. I didn't think it was possible. But he got up, he gave an excellent speech. A little wobbly, but I don't think most people knew that he had been drinking. This was 4:00 in the afternoon or so, and then he left. I might point out, it was about a year later, 1971, that President Nixon came out. There was quite a scramble, because at that time there were no buildings for Westinghouse. Westinghouse was kind of spread all over, so when the advance team for Nixon came out, they decided that the proper place would be the Battelle buildings. This sounds odd, but there was a real infighting between, at that time, Atomic Energy Commission, Westinghouse Hanford Company, and Battelle over what signs would be displayed where. Because Westinghouse was interested in making sure—this was for FFTF, and that was a Westinghouse project. On the front of the podium, of course, was the President's seal. He spoke out in front of the buildings, but behind that—or around that, Westinghouse came in the night before and put up Westinghouse circle W signs around the site. Just an example of my boss at the time, who was one of the vice presidents, said I don't care how you do it, but I want to sign that says Battelle that they can't take down and will be located visibly for all the cameras. So we stole a door off of one of the rooms in the Battelle building. I don't know if you've been the buildings or not, but they're very tall doors. They're nine-foot-tall doors. So we actually, that night, took one of the doors off, put Battelle on it, and put it up on the front of the building up high so it was right behind the podium. Westinghouse--we had to do that after midnight. That door actually was at the entrance to Battelle for—I don’t know—the next 20 years. They finally took it down not long ago. But that was relative to President Nixon showing up. That was pretty good. Bauman: Stealing and moving doors. Petersen: Well, everybody wanted their name and with the President of the United States, and so that's what we did. Bauman: Did you get the chance to meet him when he came? Petersen: I did. One of the things I still—my family still values—is Pat Nixon was along with him. My oldest daughter was one year old, and because of what I was doing, we managed to get my wife and daughter into what was called the VIP area of the presentation and so on. She didn't get to shake hands with President Nixon, but Pat Nixon came by and actually held my daughter for a brief minute. We got a picture of it and it is still on the family someplace. Bauman: How about foreign dignitaries were there any-- Petersen: Foreign dignitaries, those came later, too, after the SALT agreements. On the signing of the SALT agreements, there was real concern both on the part of Russia, Soviet Union, and the United States for how much materials were still being made or not made. There were a number of Russian visitors who came over to verify which reactors were still operating, which ones weren't, how much material was still going through the canyon facilities, those kind of things. We started for the first time, seeing some of the senior Russian officials come through. The one that still strikes me and my memory is Admiral Sarkisov. He was head of the Russian Navy, and he came out both to see at that point the start of the reactor vessels from the submarines. Today, we have about 124 submarine and cruiser missile reactor cores out on site, but at that point I want to say we probably only had eight or ten, maybe 11, 12, something like that. But he also wanted to see those and verify that the submarines had actually been decommissioned, cut up, and so on. We toured both the reactor areas and the submarine vessel area. Of course, that's where my story about FMEF comes from, too. There was a building out there that was built for FFTF called FMEF, Fuel Material Examination Facility. On the way out to the site, Admiral Sarkisov asked, what is in that building. I told him it was a shut down building. We went out and toured the site. We toured the top of Rattlesnake Mountain with him, too, which was pretty unique. But we toured the site and coming back in, he asked if he could see that building, inside the building. So I called security. It was a closed building—it was locked up. And so they met in they let us in. As we came out, Admiral Sarkisov says, well now I can move the satellite. I asked what he was talking about. And he said, well, we've been watching that building since it was completed, and we couldn't believe the United States would build a building of that size, that massive size, and then not use it. So we knew that was connected underground some other place, because we never saw any cars come. So the Russians actually thought that that building was so secret that they had an underground entrance that came from someplace else. But he saw it was simply not used. And it is unique building. It's a billion dollar building. Bauman: That's a great story. When you were giving the tour with him, was there an interpreter present when he was-- Petersen: There was always an interpreter. As a matter of fact, one from both State Department for us, for the people who were the escorts, and then he had his interpreters, too, so there was both. The group was probably ten people or so: site manager, and then others of that--there was people from state--you didn't let them wander around by themselves. Pretty unique. Bauman: Well, you said you've been connected to Hanford since 1965-- Petersen: Mm-hm. Bauman: I'm sure you’ve-- Petersen: Almost 50 years. Bauman: --been privy to a lot of interesting events and stories. So I’m going to ask you to tell me some of those, but there's one in particular I know, and that's the alligator story. Petersen: Yeah, the alligator story is good. Bauman: All right, you can talk about that. Petersen: The alligator’s pretty unique. The aquatic biology was located in 100-F Area. That's the last reactor in the downstream flow of the Columbia. So they studied the impacts of the reactors on fish, miniature swine, beagle dogs, they had African pygmy goats, but one of them—Merc Gillis was a doctor of veterinary medicine—graduate of WSU, I might add. He said that he wanted to study the uptake of strontium-90 in a thick skinned animal, because strontium is bone seeker or thick skin. So he convinced the manager of the site, of biology site, that we ought to buy some alligators. The story varies depending on who you're talking to. Bill Bair will give you one side of the story, because he was one of the managers out there. I'll give you another one. But I know for a fact at least six alligators were purchased for the studio strontium-90 uptake. Bill Bair says there were more, but I still wonder about that because I was in and out of there a lot. But these alligators were about two and a half feet long and they put them in a retention pen in the Columbia River, but it was also where the effluent from the F Reactor came back. The water would pass through the reactor, put into retention basin for a short period, and then put back in the river, so it was warmer than the river. That's part of the point. It also was the first place where the water returned to the river, so that was where the strontium would be taken up by the alligators. That's the theory. Well, two months, three months after they put the alligators into this retention pond, there was a big storm. The pen came down and all six alligators got out. This was under the AEC at the time, too—they managed to catch five, but they missed one. It was months later that a fisherman over in Ringgold, downstream, fishing caught this last alligator. Of course, he was trying to tell friends about it, and on and on. But, he had to protect the proof, so he took to a taxidermist office in Pasco and had the thing stuffed. Well, one of the technicians from aquatic biology was walking by the taxidermist shop, saw this stuffed alligator. So he ran in, grabbed the alligator, and ran out, which now makes it more or less of a public story. This was in 1963, before I got here. But the story comes around. Anyway, AEC tried to bury that story. No, we've never had an alligator out there. We don't know anything about alligators. They actually, I think, had it classified for quite some time. But when I got here in '65, my boss was a guy named George Dalen and I had been here for about a year. He says, it's time to give the alligator back. I had no idea what he was talking about, but this is where I entered the story. So he pulls out this stuffed alligator about like this, and he said it was, I think the guy's name was Aaron, he said track him down, because he was the fisherman. He paid to have it stuffed, and we're going to give the alligator back. We'll just let the story go away. So I did. I found the man. Unfortunately, the Tri-City Herald ran a story about this big about the alligator, and once every eight or ten years, they use one of these clips when they do the previous in history. DOE came in and they claimed to know nothing about any alligators, ever, ever, ever. It was in the technical library that they finally found the documents that showed not only did they have alligators, but the other five, they moved from 100-F when they had a fire out there, down to the 300 Area where life sciences built a new building. So I know that there were six alligators, five, one stuffed, and Bill Bair says that there were a few more than that, but I don't know that. That's the alligator story. Better told over beer, I might add, but not bad. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Are there any other stories during your time at Hanford--incidents, events, things that you were involved in in your job [INAUDIBLE]? Petersen: The biggest one is one that I think this community has forgotten completely, and that's Apollo 11. Apollo 11 was the first lunar landing. When Apollo 11 came back to the moon and splashed down in the Pacific, it turned out that in 329 Building, there was a room that was used for very low level radiation detection. It was a room made of pre-World War II battleship steel. It was used for a lot of reasons for measuring very small quantities of radiation. Battelle actually put in a bid with NASA to study some of the first lunar materials that came back. So they had splash down in the Pacific, and we had a man named Dr. Lou Rancitelli, who actually waited in Houston for those materials to be flown from the Pacific, off of the aircraft carrier, back to Houston. He had a briefcase—big briefcase—chained to his wrist, where he brought those back through Seattle and then to the Hanford site. He arrived here about one in the morning, I might add. There were only a few people--Doctor Perkins, myself, a couple of others, who were waiting. We kept this all secret, because we weren't supposed to tell news media or anybody else that this was going on. But Lou got the materials back, and the next day we started petitioning NASA to allow us to display those moon rocks here in this community. The second place in the whole world that moon rocks were displayed was the Federal Building here in Richland. We managed to display them for three days, and there were lines four abreast around the federal building to look at those rocks. They'd go by and ooh and aah because it came from the moon. But almost to a person, everybody says, looks just about exactly like what we see out here in the desert. You couldn't tell them apart. But the fact that we had those lunar materials, I mean that was--wherever you were, you watched TV of the landing on the moon in 1969. That was a huge event. It was after that that Nixon came to town, but hardly anybody recalls that at all. It's just a forgotten piece of history, but at the time, it was pretty big. It was almost--and I missed it—it was almost like when President Kennedy came out to dedicate the Hanford Generating Project attached to N reactor, and that happened in 1963, just before I got here. Big events. Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. Any other happenings or stories that stand out in your mind? Petersen: I wasn't a part of what was called the Green Run. Others will have to tell you about the Green Run. But one of the stories I covered, and that's one of the only ones that I was out near the tank farms. Atmospheric sciences is out between the 200 East and 200 West. It has a 300-foot-tall atmospheric tower at that site. They've all been removed today, but going downwind from that 300-foot-tall tower were, number one, four or five 200-foot-tall towers and then five or six or seven 100-foot-tall towers. They would regularly release very small quantities of radioactive iodine, most usually put into colored smoke so they could track both the visual as well as radiation and see how long it took to go downwind and disperse. Just to show you how we were at the time, the photographer and I who were covering that piece as a story thought, well not only did we want to shoot it so you can see it go, but get underneath it so you could watch it as it--It's not a very smart thing to do today, but at the time it seemed like a pretty good idea to be able to watch that stuff as it drifted and deposited. So, we did the story. AEC never let us release it, but we kept the story internally for quite a number of years. I don't know what happened to it now, but those kind of things went on fairly often. You need to know where radiation goes, and that was a piece of it. Bauman: Do you know roughly the time period that would have been? Petersen: Well, it would have been probably '68 or '69, someplace in there. There has been more study on the Hanford site--atmospheric studies, geologic studies, temperature swings, those kind of things, than almost anywhere in the United States. They really tracked how the weather changed, how the wind moved, what the ground flow is from rain, those kind of things. It was--going to atmospheric physics lab in the 200 Area was an experience. At one point I managed to take a TV crew up, because if you climb a 300-foot-tall tower in the middle of Hanford, you could see just about everything. It turned out that we got the film crew up, they took the pictures, and then security looked at the pictures and said you have pictures of classified areas within those pictures, so they took a whole video. All of the climbing up and down was for naught. So, a pretty good place. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that when you first came and started giving tours, you really didn't know much about pre-'43 events. Petersen: True. Bauman: When did you become more aware the communities that were out there and start learning more about that? Petersen: I had the real fortunate opportunity to meet Bill Rickard, and I hope you've interviewed him. Bill is a gentleman of the first order, but Bill has probably walked that site more than any single person. One of the early things—I got acquainted with Bill. Bill ended up taking me on walks across parts of Hanford. The first time that he took me out was to Rattlesnake Springs, which is up a gully on the face of Rattlesnake Mountain. It's just an experience to go with Bill, and that was mostly on—we call a bugs and bunnies--but it was mostly what was all of nature that's out there: deer, elk, coyotes, even fish and so on. But Bill knows that site probably better than any other single person. So every chance I ever got to go out with Bill, anywhere, that's where you first got the sense that there was something here pre-1943. That's when I first saw the irrigation piping. That's where you first saw the home site--we've had two major fires across that site, and both of them ended up and taking out things and were still left. There was a home up by a Rattlesnake Springs that actually still had furniture in it. It was burned down in the first fire. So Bill knew all that stuff, and so the experience of going out with Bill was really unique. I wouldn't trade it for anything. That's where I started thinking, well—actually, Bill led me to a person named Annette--I can't think of it. Bauman: Heriford? Petersen: Heriford. Annette is the one who—she was in the class that would have graduated from Hanford High School out there on site. She worked for Battelle, PNL at the time. I got real acquainted with Annette, and then I helped Annette have the first reunion of her class out at that old Hanford School and that would have been, my gosh, maybe '78 or so. 1977, '78. And Annette could tell stories about what the old Hanford town was like and White Bluffs, and how rich and agricultural area it was. She was an amazing lady. It's too bad that she passed away quite some time ago. She was a real historian. You talk to those, and all of a sudden it becomes real. She's the first one that I talked to, not Bill Rickard, but Annette Heriford that that explained that some of the people had less than two weeks' notice to move off that site. You think about it and you say, that's just not possible. But it happened. Then you start feeling for the people who—there were roughly 2,000—the numbers change, depending again on who you talk to. The one on one side, the federal side, says there's only 1,500 people out there. But if you look at the historical records, you know that there were probably about 2,100—kids and the whole works. Some of the early census didn't include some of the children, or the sheep herders that moved back and forth across the site. In talking with Annette, you finally got the feeling that was something else here that happened before 1943. That's what got my attention. Good that you know her name, too. Bauman: Yeah. Why did you think that was important, then, for people to know about? Petersen: It was probably a little later than that that I also became acquainted with some of the Native Americans. I've got to know some of those over time, too. The relationship of the people who lived out there, both with Native Americans and the site—I’ll change directions for a minute, too. My family at that point lived in Wenatchee, so when I first came in 1965, in order to get to Wenatchee from here, you had two choices. You'd either go around through Pasco and up through Moses Lake and back, or you could go out to Vernita where there was a ferry, part time, and it didn't work at night. You'd ride the ferry and go across. That was prior to the bridge being built and so on. As you go out there, and see the ferry, you'd also see the structure that now I know is Bruggemann Warehouse, and you'd meet some of the people who were either former residents or Native Americans. Then you stopped and you waited for the ferry. You got a chance to talk to some of the people as you went back and forth. There was a lot of discussion about what was this site prior to. But growing from Vernita to Vantage that was pre-Mattawa days. Now I can visualize what Hanford must have been, because Hanford was an agricultural area, prior to—it looked like Mattawa today does. When I first started driving up there, there were no orchards between Vernita and Vantage. Now you look, there's orchards and vineyards and all kinds of stuff at Mattawa. Hanford was that, but it was that before 1943. You have to visualize what it was like, and it was amazing. Hanford really has a perfect weather pattern for early produce, and it was one of the first in the state to produce and all kinds of things--peaches and pears and cherries and walnuts, all kinds of stuff. How we doing? These guys need a break. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: You started in '65. You're now at TRIDEC. At what point did you move to TRIDEC? I know you worked also at Westinghouse and [INAUDIBLE]. Petersen: My wife kids around and says I can't hold a job. That's the point. I typically work for a company for about seven years and then move companies. So I worked for Battelle for a while, then Westinghouse for a while, then what was called WPPSS, Washington Public Power Supply System for a while. But I retired from Battelle in 2002, and the Hanford manager for the site was Sam Volpentest. Sam was 99 years old at the time, and his doctor, who's also my doctor ended up saying, Sam you can't fly to Washington, DC anymore and go after money. I'd known Sam since '65, I met him in '65, and Sam called and said, Gary, I know you retired, but would you come back to work part time, ten hours a week, easy job go to Washington, DC for me and that's it. He had the nerve to die at 101. He lived for about a year after he hired me to do those trips. And when he passed on, as a result TRIDEC at the time said, well, we need somebody full time to do this. I wasn't real interested, so they said we'll make it part time job. You only have to work 25, 30 hours a week. It hasn't been that since. Away we go. It's nice because if they want to fire me, I'd love it. I'll go and play golf. It's a good deal. Bauman: Can you talk about Sam Volpentest a little bit? Obviously, a very important figure through most of the Tri-Cities. Can you talk about his significance a little bit? Petersen: Would be happy to. Sam was an incredible politician. He never ran for office that I know of, but he knew politics from the top to the bottom. He was friends with everybody from Governor Rosellini to Senator Magnuson, Senator Jackson, Speaker of the House, Tom Foley. He knew politics. If you read the book so that was just written about Sam, it has a lot of facts, but until you knew Sam--and I was fortunate. Another part of my assignment, when I first got here in '65, TRIDEC was called TRICNIC. So it had a different name. It was Tri-City Nuclear Industrial Council. And Sam was not a writer. As a matter of fact, everything he did was longhand, very pretty penmanship, but he couldn't put things down on a typewriter for taking to Washington, DC and so on. Battelle, one of their offers to the community was to provide somebody who could write to Sam to write their newsletters, to write their congressional letters, to write things. I got to know Sam when he was in a little office on the Parkway. Later he moved into the Hanford house. Sam was a mover. Most of the ideas that Sam accomplished didn't start with Sam, but he would hear an idea and he'd say, that sounds good. We're going to do that. For example, he started TRICNIC/TRIDEC in 1963. In 1963—you've got to go back in time—every road in and out of the community was two lanes. There was one airline only at the time, and Sam knew that in 1963 the government, AEC, was starting to shut down the reactors. Sam and Glen Lee and Bob Philip formed TRICNIC and they did that to try and offset, with federal dollars, the coming shut down of the production mission at Hanford. In the process, they also determined that in order to develop a community long range, you had to have transportation. Even though most people think that Sam concentrated on Hanford, he actually--and Glen Lee and Bob Philip—all really focused on how do we make the Tri-Cities bigger and better than it is? Four-lane highway was first, but airlines were second, and the third one that really was not well-known at all was education. And they went after a Center for Graduate Study for this community, which became WSU Tri-Cities. They decided that you had all of this intellectual property at the laboratory at Hanford, but you needed something for their families. I don't think it was a sit down and let's do a vision and do all these things. I think it came in pieces, where they actually decided they wanted certain things. Sometimes the fallout was better than what they expected. As an example, the breeder reactor program, which started in 1968, '69, was going to be a major, major new AEC mission. Sam went after the breeder reactor program, and he didn't get it. Savannah River did, what was called Clinch River Breeder Reactor. But he got the secondary issue, which was FFTF, which is a small test reactor that led to. As it turns out, over time the administration killed the Clinch River Breeder Reactor, but they kept FFTF going. Or, another example is we lost out on a mission that Sam really wanted that I think was called SMEVs—and maybe I'll explain it, but maybe not. And we lost that one, too, and so Sam went to Magnuson and said, we need something. Give us something. A couple days later, the story goes, Magnuson called up and said well we had a federal building planned for Montana or Wyoming or something, but they really don't want it. How about we put a federal building in the Tri-Cities. That's how this Federal Building came about. That was Sam. Sam was tenacious. He either liked you, or he didn't like you. There were people he wouldn't let in his office, period, but others-- Phenomenal memory. He could pick up a phone and call congressmen or senators from other states without ever looking the number up. He would pick up the phone--he never believed in talking to staff. He would talk to Senator Magnuson. He would talk to Chet Holifield. He would call them up personally and say I need this or I need that. He was incredible. Bauman: That's a great story. How was he able to have such persuasive powers with Magnuson, Scoop Jackson, a senator also, Tom Foley, right, these US Senators? Tri-Cities is still fairly small, population-wise. Was it his tenacity? Petersen: Well. It was his tenacity, but it all started with Governor Rosellini. And the fact that Sam, for a period before he came here, was in the Italian something club in Seattle, which was Rosellini, Magnuson was an honorary member. He, Sam, belonged to the Seattle club, which is still there, downtown Seattle. He made politically--he recognized that you needed political connections no matter what. When he came here and then he had the backing of Glen Lee, Tri-City Herald, the combination of those two—Sam took every advantage he could find. His advantage with the Tri-City Herald was, if he thought we needed something, then Glen Lee would support it editorially, and they would go after the politicians collectively and get it. Sam liked to take credit and he did many, many things, but it was really the combination that he put together that was pretty unique—partnerships. It took him a long time to play what I call both sides of the aisle. Typically he was a Democrat. He was a solid, solid Democrat. But he started realizing that there were Republicans that you had to deal with as well, and he needed to work with them over time, and he did. He built friendships across the whole gamut. And active, I mean, he was amazing. If you ever got a chance to go—Sam was small, but if you ever got a chance to go to Washington, DC with Sam, it was an experience. It was unbelievable. He knew where he was going. He didn't have to look at a map. He walked everywhere. I'll say he was a cheapskate, but he was a penny pincher. If a hotel cost $110 a night, he'd find one where you’d get it for $109. Sam was that kind of an individual. But he knew The Hill like nobody else I've ever seen. He knew the underground parts of The Hill, too. He didn't like to get out in the weather, so there's a whole both subway system and hallways between the House side the Capitol and the Senate side. Sam knew all of those underground links, and he'd just take off through those tunnels and go from one side of The Hill to the other side of The Hill. Amazing. Bauman: And he lived a long life, so he had-- Petersen: 101. Bauman: --connections with those politicians-- Petersen: Long period of time. He recognized, too, that he was outliving his supporters. He outlived Magnuson, he outlived Jackson. The one that was constant was Rosellini and Rosellini and he were the same age. And so Rosellini lived to 100, as well. Pretty good. Bauman: What about Glen Lee? What sort of role--what was he like? Petersen: Glen Lee was a bulldog. He's a big, imposing man. The thing that I think the Tri-City Herald should have done was kept his office as a mausoleum. His office was a piece of history by itself. He had pictures with Presidents, he had pictures with governors, he had memorabilia from all over the place. If you asked Sam and Glen the same question, you'd get two similar, but different answers. Who caused something to happen? I'll give you one story that is really unique. How did Battelle get here? Sam had a vision of how Battelle came; Glen Lee had a vision of how Battelle came. Fred Albaugh, one of the lab directors had a story about how Battelle came to be here. And Sherwood Fawcett, who became the first director of the lab, had a different story. I believe they're all correct, but they're different. Each one takes credit in a different way, and so Sam claims full credit for bringing Battelle here. He was at a meeting in New York and he knew that the lab was going to be bid out. He ran into Burke Thomas, who was the president of Battelle, and Sherwood Fawcett, and sold them on the idea coming. That's Sam's story. If you listened to Sherwood Fawcett, Sherwood Fawcett said that the president of the company actually was a graduate of the University of Washington. He wanted to open the lab somewhere in the state of Washington. Burke Thomas found out that this lab was going to be bids, so Burke told Sherwood go and bid on that and win it. Two different sides of the same story. I don't know which one is right. Bauman: You've been connected in Hanford for quite a few years now, and seen a lot changes take place. Obviously, one of the key changes was the mission of the place itself, from production to clean up. I'm wondering if you can talk about that a little bit in terms of how you saw that and the impact that had on the area of Hanford itself? Petersen: I'm happy to. I'm going to connect it back to Sam a little bit. One of the changes that was major was going from AEC, Atomic Energy Commission, to an organization for a short period called ERDA, which I forget now what that stands for. They were only and operation for a year and a half or so, and now to DOE. Most of the new missions for the Hanford site didn't come from within the federal government, they came from the community. As the production reactors were being shut down, Sam and Glen in particular saw that we needed to find new missions for Hanford. One of the first ones was a Hanford Generating Plant, which was operated by Washington Public Power Supply System, but attached to N Reactor. N Reactor was the first dual purpose reactor in the United States, and the vision was it was going to last a long time because it was the newest one and it produced 800 megawatts of power. Sam and Glen said, let's get the HGP here, because the United States wouldn't dare shut down a reactor that's producing 800 megawatts of power, so that was one the early ones. But as you started to see the reactors come down, they looked for other missions. One of the first ones was a thing called BWIP, which is--everything has an acronym, but a Basalt Waste Isolation Project, which was actually in competition with both Nevada and Texas to become the nation's repository. BWIP, that's a misnomer, what I just said. BWIP was actually the study of the geology of basalt for a repository, but it wasn't going to be the repository. It was a study site. If it worked, if it showed that it could work, then there would have been some other place on the Hanford site they would have dug deep down into the basalt and made a repository. Deaf Smith, Nevada, Yucca Mountain, and here were one of the visions of Sam and Glen and wanted to become the repository for the nation. All of a sudden there was a move in Congress that said we're going to select one and it's going to be Yucca Mountain. And so shut the other two down. And actually BWIP, the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, was shut down within a period of two to four weeks. There were hundreds of people who worked out there. When that shut down, Sam then went after that Clinch River Breeder Reactor program. The breeder reactor program ended up getting FFTF so there was certain things that happened in a sequence that he was always looking for that new mission, whatever it was. One example, the one that Sam loved to do, and I stumble on every time, is Sam also heard that MIT and some others were going after this deep space exploration project. There were two sides to that, at the time. One was SNAP, which is the Space Nuclear Application Program and the second side was what became LIGO, the Laser Interferometry Gravitational-Wave Observatory. I can only do that once. But Sam loved that one because he could spit it out. He had that one memorized and he loved to go into a congressional office and say—rather than LIGO. So Sam is the one that really pushed for that project as well. Always, they had a vision of trying to capture new missions for Hanford, and it was never really—the push never came from DOE or ERDA or AEC after the original mission. They all came from the community. And we’re in competition with Oak Ridge, Idaho Falls, Savannah River, for those kind of things. Bauman: Another one of the changes that's taken place at Hanford since I've been here is there are a lot fewer buildings on site now than there were. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit, and what that means, you think, in terms of the history. Petersen: I'll start lightly and say it's a conspiracy. The conspiracy is every building that I've ever worked in out there, with the exception of FFTF, has been torn down. [LAUGHTER] So I think they're out to get me. At the top of Rattlesnake Mountain were the Nike Ajax building, they've been torn down, and buildings and then the 300 Areas that I had offices in. What we're seeing today, though, is the success of cleanup, particularly along the river corridor. I will say that the Department of Energy and the contractors have done an amazing job of cleaning up this site. When you look at the changes, particularly in the 300 Area or the reactors themselves, the change is phenomenal. I forget, I think there's something like 280 buildings have been taken off the site, and the landscape has changed. The big, tall smokestacks are gone. The water tanks that were out there are gone. The skyline has changed drastically. And they've done it, too, with an intent to try and return it to original habitat. Most of it is what's called brownfields, but they have done a tremendous job of actually recovering a lot of the vegetation the original look of the land, with the exception that this was agricultural area, so it's different. But that's a huge, huge change. And most of that's been in the last five years. It's a different thing today than it was, 1965. You just see it all over the place. Bauman: You've been giving tours for years. I can't imagine how many tours you've led. Petersen: I don't know. A lot. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Do you have a favorite place on the site of the different places you stopped for tours or maybe when you went out with Bill Rickard? Is there a place that you really--? Petersen: The B Reactor is unique, unique, unique. There is no place like B Reactor. When you go in to B Reactor and you realize that 50,000 people were brought from all over the United States, and some foreign countries, they didn't know what they were building. They didn't have computers. They didn't have portable radios. They didn't have portable phones. And they, start to finish, built B Reactor in 11 months. That's just plain incredible. When you look at the craftsmanship of doing that, the best analogy is still from Jim Albaugh, who was the head of the Boeing program for 787s. We took him on a tour of B Reactor and he came out and he said, this would be like trying to bring in 50,000 people, have them build their own community first, because they had to have a place to live and eat and so on, and then tell them build a 787, but you've got no computers to do it with. And you've got to buy all the materials and manufacture them. So B Reactor is unique, unique. I can't say enough about B Reactor. But there's a flip side, too, and that is I've also become enamored with pre-1943. When what I think about that, it's really the city of White Bluffs, and the fact that there's still a ferry landing out there, there's a bank building out there, there's sidewalks out there. You go out and when you're alone, you go out by yourself, you can just visualize this community that used to exist. Then all of a sudden, they're moved away and 50,000 people come in in a period of weeks, just a very short period of time. They have to build a town, and then they start building things like B Reactor. And to know is all done, really, under the direction of a 36-year-old individual and a Corps of Engineers, it's unbelievable. I know a lot of cocky 36-year-olds, but I don't know anybody like Franklin Matthias to do the things he did with 50,000 people. Unbelievable. My favorite place is B Reactor. It's got to be right there. Bauman: Well, I think you and I could just go on talking for hours, probably. Petersen: [LAUGHTER] I think we're close. Bauman: But I do wonder, is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you want to talk about, maybe that I haven't asked you about. Any stories, or anything that's really important that you want to mention? Petersen: There's a piece that has yet to be done, Bob, and that piece I've talked to several people about. That piece is trying to capture either the individuals or the families of the people who were here prior to 1943. I think it is extremely important for us as a community to find those people, identify them, bring them together, allow them back out on the site for the first time. I took the Bruggemann family back out. That was the first time--did this about three years ago. That was the first time they had been back since 1943, and to go--it's like anybody's heritage. If you have a chance to go back and see where your parents or your grandparents--or you, as a child, grew up--the vision is different. Things are smaller, but—the feel of the place. We need to find those people and give them credibility and standing so that they have the opportunity to see their heritage. It turns out that exactly the same time as people were being moved off Hanford, the Japanese were being moved off of Bainbridge Island. Exactly the same time. And they all had to be off by August of 1943. In the case of the Japanese, the federal government has actually done some very nice things. They helped some of the families regain their land. They put up displays of all kinds to say this is what happened. But here at Hanford, of those families still are scattered around the United States, and they have very little to remember the site that they knew by. When you think about--and I'll use the Bruggemanns because I know them the best--you think about Bruggemanns who had 1,400--they had 640 acres, but they leased more—and they had sheep, they had cattle, they had a working staff of something like ten to 20 people on and off, up and down. They were given two weeks to get rid of all that stuff and move. We've got to get that. We've got to capture that. We've got to help them. That's the piece. How’d we do? Did you guys go to sleep back there? Man two: Huh? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Well thanks very much, Gary, for sharing your stories. Like I said, I'm sure you and I could go on talking for quite a while. Petersen: I recognize, too, you're really after the people who were here from pre-'63, but '63 to '65 or so. But I'm a Johnny-come-lately, so I look at it different. Bauman: You know a lot of the history of the place, the stories. Petersen: There's pieces that are really pretty fun. There's some of the stories, honestly, that you probably will never hear, because they have different twists to them. Some point, not with an audience, I will tell you there's another side to the Apollo 11 moon rocks that got here. It's a very unique story that only a couple people know, how they actually came to the site. And it was tough. Bauman: Thanks so much, Gary. Petersen: Yeah. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:08:37 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 260 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area N Reactor 200 East Area 200 West Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1960-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1965-2014 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. May, Catherine Foley, Tom Nixon, Pat Bair, William (Bill) Rickard, Bill Volpentest, Sam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Petersen Description An account of the resource An interview with Gary Petersen conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-6-5 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100 Area 200 Area 200 East Area 200 West Area 300 Area B Reactor DuPont General Electric N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3e4aaec73e6f6c9ba18a36475c893e05.jpg bde01b50c49fdd19de9845aaa9a2a017 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fab86fcd9bafe1ad87121451929b5f8b0.mp4 bf4cb3c2a0e804cfdad85f1d48db7166 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leonard Peters Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Northwest Public Television | Peters_Leonard </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Leonard Peters: Leonard Peters. L-E-O-N-A-R-D P-E-T-E-R-S. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. It's November 19th--already--2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start, if you could tell us a little bit about how your family came to Hanford and where you were from. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I was born in Denver in August of '43. My father came out in June or July of '43 from Denver. And so my mom, myself, and my brother were there in Denver, and when I was two months old we came out with another family, the Carl Eckert family. And it was my mom, Mrs. Eckert, their daughter--who was about my age--and my brothers. So five of us came out in a car in October of '43. And my dad was working out here. And so that's how we came out, was in an old car. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: And what was your father doing at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: He was a truck driver. He drove for Remington Arms in Denver, who was DuPont, and he also worked for Bechtel up in Alaska. And he came down and went back to Denver and was driving, heard about this place. And if you'd like a very interesting story-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Always. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: He was driving for an Army officer. A colonel or something, I'm not sure. Kind of a--I'll say chauffeur, but it wasn't really a chauffeur. But my dad had heard about this place. And he asked his--I'll say colonel--about it. And very few people knew about it. But this colonel says, well, I can't tell you anything about it, but if you've heard of heavy water, it has something to do with heavy water. Of course my dad, heavy water didn't mean anything to him. But you know, hindsight. It's kind of interesting to me this colonel knew a little bit about what was going on here. As big a secret as it was, not that many people knew. But he had some idea of what was going on. I found that very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Yeah. And how long did your father work at the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: From '43 until he retired in '73. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Okay, well, we'll come back to that. I want to ask you just a few questions about the area. Obviously you were very, very young— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I'm sorry. He passed away in '73. He retired in '67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Okay. I'll have more questions for you. [LAUGHTER] Do you remember, growing up, what sort of housing you lived in, what the situation was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: My first memory was an A house, 1520 Thayer. We moved in there about 1945. So that's my first memory, though we lived many places before that, as my dad's Q clearance bears out. But my memory goes back to the A house in 1945. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Did you live there for quite a while? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Lived there until around '56, '57. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: And could you describe that house a little bit, for anyone who doesn't know what an A house is? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: An A house is a duplex, two-story. You have neighbors literally right next door to you. It was a three-bedroom, all upstairs. And of course back then there was no air conditioning, and it would get hot in the summertime. I can literally remember summers, 109 to 110, 112 degrees. And the only air conditioning was a swamp cooler. So it was pretty miserable, but yet you didn't think about it because that's just the way it was. The government literally furnished everything, from throw rugs to table, chairs. I mean literally everything. Coal. We had a coal-burning furnace, and like once a month or so on, they would deliver coal. And you had to make sure there was a coal bin that had slats in it, and you had to make sure that the slats were in, because if you forgot to put the slats in you'd have coal all over the basement floor. And so that was kind of interesting. My dad, every morning, would have to get up and stoke the fire and get it going in wintertime, because we used to have some pretty bad winters compared to today. And so that was, again, just part of living in this area. Dust storms. You've heard of the termination winds. The wind would blow and the curtains would go back and forth and just wave in the breeze, with all the windows closed. And you'd have a quarter of an inch of dust on the windowsills and everything. But there again, that's just the way it was. I can remember one story--my wife tells that when her mother came out with her and her brother, met at the train station, and the father was there to pick them up. There was a windstorm right then. And her first words were "Sherman, get me a ticket back home." And they ended up dying here, and buried here. And I know my dad, he swore he would never—he wanted to go back to Colorado, but again, he was buried here and lived here all the rest of his life. But what else can I say on the government? Everything—you know, I've heard of people—we never did do it, but people get tired of a chair or something, they'd break it, call housing. They would need another chair, and they'd come out and replace the chair. And if you had—back then they had fuses, as opposed to breakers. Blow a fuse, call housing, they'd send an electrician out to change the fuse for you. I mean, it was pretty amazing, really. And it was good quality furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Cool. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about growing up in Richland in the '40s and '50s, sort of what the community was like at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: It was a fairly small town, of course. I think--and this is just my memory--it was about probably maybe 23,000 people, was all. Something like that. And it was truly a Leave It to Beaver era. People laugh at that, but that's exactly what it was, because if you stop and think about it--in order to live in Richland, you had to work out in the area. In order to work out in the area, you needed clearance. And it was not unusual to have someone knock at the door and be an FBI agent investigating someone or something. I mean, it was very controlled. And so there was no crime to speak of. Nickel and dime stuff. But there was one murder, in all those years. They never did find the killer. But no, we'd play out all night and folks wouldn't think a thing about it. That’s just the way it was. And in the summertime, like I said, as hot as it was, all the windows and doors would be wide open and wouldn't think a thing about it. And people kind of knew one another. Not that you knew everybody, but that small a town and everyone working out there. Everyone rode the bus, so there was a camaraderie with not only where you worked but also on the buses. And people I think really did try and watch out for one another. But no, growing up, it was great. One kind of fun story. We used to hooky-bob. You know what that is? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: I don't. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Okay, what we'd do in the wintertime when the roads were snowy and icy. You'd hide behind a bush, and as a car went by, you ran out and grabbed the bumper and had them drag you around. And that was a lot of fun. That was one of the winter sports. But it was kind of interesting. I can remember, newspaper front page showed a bus with a glove on it. The story was, it was a hooky-bobber and his hand was wet and it froze to the bumper, and--make a long story short, it was on the dangers of hooky-bobbing. But it just happens that the guy that that glove belonged to graduated a couple years ahead of me. Name was Jim Crum, who is now an attorney for the US government. But no, it was a fun time. I mean, Friday night shows was wall-to-wall kids. Very seldom was there a fight or anything. We'd hang out at the Spudnut Shop, or there was another place called Tim's. Someone that had a car would drive around the Uptown area about 30 times, just looking for gals or whatever. I mean, it was an American Graffiti time. Have you seen American Graffiti? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Yes, sir. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: You see that, and every person in there--Hey, that was so-and-so; that was so-and-so. I mean, it was so accurate to our high school days. It was a good time to grow up. Wintertime, of course, we had Christmas tree forts, and if there was snow on the ground we'd have snow forts and choose up sides and have snowball fights hiding behind our snow forts. We would, if there was no snow--or even if there was snow after Christmas--build Christmas tree forts. Stack them up and have a roof on it, even sleep out in it. But if a neighbor down the street--you know, if they had a Christmas tree fort, about one or two in the morning we'd sneak down and steal all their trees. And we'd have a bigger fort then. We would sleep out a lot in the summertime, because it was hot. I can remember we would sleep out maybe 10 o'clock at night or so. There were still orchards, cherry orchards in town. Up on Van Giesen. We lived just around the corner on Thayer. We'd get up, go down there and steal cherries. We'd steal quite a few cherries. Then the next day we'd sell them house to house. What else was there? The buses were a big part. The buses were fun, because there was two groups. They were both run by the government, but there was what they called the city local, which took people from point A to point B as far as downtown and uptown, different places. Then there was the outer area buses that took workers to work and brought them home. But there was two different--not bus companies, but groups of drivers that drove for each group. But not only hooky-bobbing, but it was always fun to--as buses passed--snowball them, and throw snowballs at them. Just fun things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Some good winter sports. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Could you talk a little bit more about these--you mentioned Friday night shows, and also the Spudnut Shop. Could you describe those a little bit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I mean, everyone went to them. All the kids went to them. And you know, you're talking the '50s, where rock and roll was just coming in. I wrote a piece one time on--I really think that we were born at a nice time, because we can remember big bands, we can remember that type of music and how rock and roll came in. And of course parents didn't like rock and roll at all. It was evil, and all this. But a lot of the movies, some of the movies, had rock and roll stars. I can remember people dancing in the aisles while the movie was on. Things like that. I can remember one gal was dancing what they used to call a dirty bop. They ended up kicking her out. [LAUGHTER] But no, there was dancing and hooting and hollering. Before the Uptown Theater opened was the Village Theater. And that was when we were younger, but that's when they showed the serials, whether it be Superman or Whip Wilson or whomever. But every Saturday we'd go to the show. There'd be a cartoon as well as one or two double feature. That's back--we were young, but a fun thing then, I guess, was to have your popcorn boxes. They were boxes at the time. You'd flatten them and throw them and make a shadow on the screen. That was the big deal. But the Village Theater was so strange because it was all kids, basically. Because the Richland Theater, which is now The Players, was more the adults. The Village Theater was for little kids. But you would walk down the aisles, and was a kind of carpeting, and you'd stick, stick, stick, stick. I don't think they ever cleaned it. Pop spilled on it, candy bars, and everything else. That was fun. Then they did build the Uptown Theater, and that was more adult movies. But on Friday night, it was lot of science fiction. That's where you saw Frankenstein, Dracula, The Wolfman, and all that. Then the midnight shows had really neat--they'd have a midnight show, and we wouldn't get home until three in the morning, but no big deal. You'd walk home. No big deal. I don't know if you can do it today, but there'd be half a dozen of your friends walking home with you, just having a good time. But the Friday night shows--I started smoking quite early. I don't smoke now. But I can remember, for mowing the lawn and peeling the taters and things that, I’d get $1 a week allowance. And with that dollar I could buy a pack of cigarettes, which would last me a week, get into the show, and have like a dime left over. So I mean, a dollar, I was in fat city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Do you remember how much a movie cost, about that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: First ones I can remember was $0.11 or $0.12, and then it went to $0.20. And I think during my high school days, if I remember right, it was probably $0.35, something like that. I'm not sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: All right. I'm fascinated by the Spudnut Shop and Tim's. Can you describe those a little? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Well, Tim's was where Dr. Chavla placed his--it's kind of caddy-cornered from the graveyard, the old graveyard. And it was a nice place. A fireplace in it and everything. That's where the kids hung out. And it wasn't really a pizza parlor, but it was kind of a pizza parlor sandwich place. It was our high school days, and it closed, I'm not sure exactly when, but became Einan's Funeral Home. It went from the restaurant to Einan's Funeral Home. And then Einan's, of course, moved out on the bypass. But the Spudnut shop, it's bigger now than it was. It used to just be just a few booths. But I can remember Spudnuts were, let's say, $0.10. And for a Spudnut ala mode--that was a Spudnut with soft ice cream on it--that was $0.15. And if you had $0.15 for that, you was in pretty good shape, because we didn't have money like that. And there was another place just two doors down from that that was the Fission Chips. But it was interesting the way they spelled fission. It was fission, like nuclear. It was Fission Chips. You can see some old pictures of the Spudnut shop, and just a couple doors down, you'll see the Fission Chips. But we'd hang out in the Spudnut Shop before the movie, and then maybe go there after the movie. And that's just where everyone hung out. When we had a car later, more in our high school years, we hung out at a place called Skip's. It was where Les Schwab is now. That was kind of the hangout there. I don't know if you want this on there. It's not very nice. But Skip's, there was a young girl worked there with a cleft palate. One the guys that we kind of ran with, he had a cleft palate also. He was about three years older than me. But he pulled in there, him and friends, and she said in her cleft palate way, ,ay I help you? He said yeah, give me a such and such. And she got mad, you don't have to make fun of me! Because she though he was just making fun of her. Kind of a sad story, but kind of humorous also. The movies was a big part of life. Of course, swimming. We used to swim in the Yakima a lot. And the old pool, what we used to call the big pool, down in what's now Howard Amon Park—it used to be Riverside Park--there was a swimming pool there. And the flood of '48, '47-'48, it flooded the park. And so they done away with that pool and built the present one. That flood was quite a deal. I can remember going--the bridge was out--going out of Richland, and they had a pontoon bridge. And that causeway wasn't there then. It was just flat. But I thought that was so neat. We was going across the bridge, and you see pontoons all the way across it with lumber to drive on. And that always impressed me. Down around Gowen and things, I can remember the basements flooded from that flood. And it was quite a flood. That's when they built the dam or dike around Richland and Kennewick and so on. The—I was thinking of something else, and lost it. But no, the flood was quite an event. I worked with a guy named Ralph Schafer, who had a private pilot's license, and they hired him as a bus driver. But they let him go from bus driving long enough, because the only way to the airport at the time was to fly from Richland to Pasco. So they hired him to ferry people to the Pasco airport in his private plane, because basically there was no way out of Richland, until they put that pontoon bridge in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: I wonder if you could talk about--obviously you went through school here. Do you have any memories--there were also some residents that were here prior to 1943, that were still in school here, that were moved off of their family lands. Did you go to school with anybody who had memories of that, that you recall? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Not to my knowledge. You hear all kinds of stories and things that I don't know. I know I've heard that one family--or some people, I'll say--when they were, quote, kicked out of White Bluffs Hanford area, they moved to Prosser, Sunnyside, somewhere up there, and swore they'd never set foot in Richland. And whether that's true or not, I don't know. But I know there's hard feelings over it, rightfully so. But no, I don't know of anyone. I know we had a lot of construction workers in trailer parks in north Richland. There was a big trailer park, and they had an elementary school out there, John Ball. And once they got all the houses built that they were going to build, I guess, they closed the trailer park and closed John Ball and had them all into town. But I can remember living on Thayer, going to school at Old Sacky—Sacajawea, the Old Sacky--that for some reason, for two-three days they sent me to Spalding. I had to walk to school, which was maybe three, four blocks, five blocks. I can remember big piles of dirt, having to climb over them to get to school. And the reason for that was they were building the ranch houses at that time. So I was probably first grade, I'm guessing. So they were still building in the late '40s, early '50s. In fact, Bauer Days and the Richland Village came later, after the letter houses. But school--no, I honestly can't remember any kids there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: No problem. We're here to get your memories, so. A bunch of other things I want to ask you. One thing, you said your father worked in Hanford until '67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: He retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: He retired in '67. So he was working in the area when President Kennedy came, in 1963. Do you have any memories of that event? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: No. I was in the Navy then, so no. I know my wife said that she went out to see him. And there were so many people you could hardly see him, but she went out to it. But no, I got out of the Navy in October, '63. I was on a train back to Denver to visit relatives. It's kind of sad. I was sitting in the club car playing cards with strangers, and the porter came in--a black fella--says, [EMOTIONAL] the President's been shot. And we all--aww, go on, he's pulling our leg, he's joking. Then I says, you don't joke about something like that. We were somewhere around Wyoming on the train, and then they was able to get a radio station over the PA or whatever it was. Sure enough, a little bit later--that he had died. And that's how I learned of it. I'll never forget that train ride. Got to Denver, and it was just strange. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Of course. And we're right on the anniversary of it now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. Yeah. But my dad, I don't know if he went to see him or not. I mean, he was a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. He came out of the Depression. He was born in '03, so he'd been through a lot. I can remember him saying that he'd vote for a yellow dog before he'd vote for a Republican. He was the old Democrat. But he did vote for one Republican. That was John Dam, who was running for county commissioner. They were personal friends. He said that's the only Republican he'd ever voted for. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: One exception. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: So did you work at Hanford at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: You did. So could you start filling us in on that a little? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I worked 40 years out there. Hired on '65. And luckily my dad was still working, so we overlapped. We were both drivers. And I started out as a laborer, though they called them servicemen--basically a laborer. And I got set up to bus driver. And in '61, had a layoff. And I could have stayed, but I thought, man, let's see what else is out there. And I went and worked for Battelle. I was with Battelle for about 13 years in inhalation toxicology. Long-term study. Plutonium, curium, americium studies on dogs. And in about '84 I quit Battelle and went back to transportation, because money. You know that all your college folks know that biology is not real high-paying, unless you're a PhD or something. But a BS in biology's not much. But no, I really enjoyed that. In fact, when McCluskey's glove box blew up, about 200 Areas were exposed to--I forget if it was curium or americium, but there hadn't been a lot of studies on those. And like I said, I was working in inhalation toxicology, and we got two or three big contracts right after that to study the health effects of curium and americium through inhalation. He was an amazing man, because I worked with PhDs. Immunologists, veterinaries, hematologists. You name it, we had the discipline there. Pathologists. And they didn't give him six months to live, with what he got. And he ended up living probably 20 years or better. It is quite an amazing story. You can go on the internet and look up Atomic Man, and his story's in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: We actually interviewed the gentleman who was in charge of the cleanup, cleaning up his hospital room. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. I don't know if it was this guy I worked with, what we called a radiation monitor. Now they're HPTs or something. But he was with him, scrubbing him and things. His name was Larry Belt. He'd be a good interview for you. I worked with Larry for a number of years. He was our radiation monitor when we exposed dogs and so on. But he said, you can't believe the pain this man was in. He said, we had to literally scrub him with brushes, because he had stuff embedded in his face and so on. Terrible. He says, submerge him and scrub him. No, Larry Belt could tell some stories about it. But back to my job. I quit Battelle for financial reasons and went back to driving. Drove a bus for a lot of years. They shut the bus system down, and I went and worked driving a truck, and drove ERDF trucks hauling the solid waste from out around the river and so on. Did that for a number of years and retired. I taught HAZMAT classes for the last about ten years. But buses were the fun job. A lot of stories there. One of our drivers named Carl Adcock was driving down Delafield, taking the day shift home--so it was about four or five in the afternoon—and a little girl was standing out in the middle of the street playing. About five, six years old. Stopped his bus, pulled the brake, got out and spanked her butt, get out of here! Got back in the bus, and the passengers were just--what are you doing? You could get in trouble for that. And it was his daughter. But no, we've had people have epileptic seizures on the bus. And there's all sorts of things like that. A lot of stories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: You must see a little bit of everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Oh, yeah. We had poker games, bridge games, on the buses. They had cardboard tables. Four people would sit down, put their table between the aisles and play cards. They had a bridge game going from 100F, which was where the animals were before they built 300—the animal life sciences 300 Area--but they had a bridge game that was going steady for at least 30, 35 years. I mean, it was different people. You know, someone would retire, someone else would take their place. But it started out at 100F at lunch break and then on the bus, and it continued. When we were at 300 they were still playing. Again, it was different players, but it was the same game. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Wow. There's something I wanted to ask you about. Returning back to when you worked in inhalation toxicology at Battelle, did you work with the smoking beagles? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yes. That was my first job, was smoking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: We just interviewed Vanis Daniels-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Oh, yeah. I know Vanis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: --last week, who worked with the smoking beagles. Can you describe for us the process of getting the beagles to smoke two packs a day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Well, the hard part's lighting 'em. No, the reason for the study, as I understood it, was uranium miners were dying early, and they wanted to know why. Because it could be cigarette smoke--because most of them were smokers--uranium ore dust or it could be radon daughters. And so we had a group of--I forget now. 70 dogs, 60. Something like that. And 10 of would receive smoke only, cigarette smoke only. They had a table, kind of a horseshoe. The mask fit over their muzzle with a cigarette in there, and like every seventh or tenth breath, a little gadget would open and their breath would suck in the smoke. But then ten of them would receive uranium ore dust and radon daughters. There was a large chamber that held ten dogs around it, and up in the top there was a grinder thing that would grind the ore dust and sprinkle it down in. I mean, it wasn't noticeable, it wasn't thick, but it was in there. And then we had radon. I think it was water bubbled through it that would give the radon gas, and it would get into the chamber. And then we had another ten that would receive cigarette and the radon. And then a control group that didn't receive anything. They were called sham. You'd bring them in, go through all the same routine, but they wouldn't receive anything. And just see what the effects were. And it was a lifespan study, so you'd look at the dosage and how long they lived and what affected them the most. So that's basically what it was. One story I heard--probably true--was that the Russians said that our limits were too high, should be lower. So that maybe prompted it, I don't know. Then after that when we got to 300 Area, 100-F moved into 300 Area, and they closed 100-F down. And then they had a group of just smoking dogs. And it was more difficult in the sense that we had a mask that fit over their muzzle, and they could trick it. They could breathe out of the side of their mouth. When they did it at one area they trached them, and there was no cheating that. It was direct. There was no getting around that. I learned a lot. I mean, that was one of the most exciting jobs. And the learning curve was just like that. I really learned a lot about physiology and biology and chemistry. You work there that long, and you learn a lot. Because part of my job was necropsy--or what they call autopsy, but necropsing the dogs. And we always said we took everything but the bark. I mean we literally disarticulated them and took every piece that they had. Every organ, every bone, separated it. The reason for that—we wanted to know where the plutonium or curium or whatever went to in the body. Where was the body burden? Was it in the lungs, was it in the bones? And interestingly enough, we exposed Pu-238 and 239, and the 238 would be a bone-seeker. The bones would have high doses. But in 239, the bones hardly got anything. It was all soft tissue. So they learned a lot from that, as far as where these elements--what they seek. The target organs, if you will. I don't know if all that should go in this. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Fascinating. I really love hearing about it. Could you talk a little bit about--obviously, during those times, security and secrecy was still very much a part of working at Hanford. Did that impact your work at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Oh, a lot. You know, being raised--from my oldest memories, it was secure. And I can remember when I was probably about 10, 11, 12 years old I went in for a library card here in Richland. They asked who my dad worked for, and I was scared to tell them. Because the security--my dad never told me what was going on out there. And I knew security was a big deal. And I says, I don't know. I kind of knew, but I--And she says, well, what does he do? And I says, well, he drives. So then she wrote down General Electric. But no, I mean, it was paramount even as a kid. I can remember—and this is kind of funny hindsight--but kind of put yourself in that timeframe--I can remember calling my brother who was seven, eight, nine years old--would have been in the early '50s, McCarthy era--I can remember calling my brother a dirty communist. And my dad just came unglued. He would rather have me call him S.O.B. than that, because that wasn't something you messed with in the early '50s, with the FBI and everything else. But I mean, security was bred into you, I guess. And when I hired on, it was still, but not like it was. But many of us still had that same mentality. I can remember when they started releasing things to the public. That always bothered me, because this is secure, and people don't have the need to know a lot of this stuff. Security was a big deal. I mean, you didn't go anyplace without a security badge. They could stop you, search your car, and everything else. So it was a high priority. There was seclusion areas within the area. You might get out in the area, but you might not be able to get into a certain area. When you got in that area, you couldn't get into another area, like dash-5 or Z-Plant or REDOX or PUREX. You needed extra security on your badge to get in these places. So security was very tough. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Could you talk a little bit about how Hanford was overall as a place to work? Anything you found particularly challenging or very rewarding about your time in the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I think it was great. You know, let's face it, it was great for a lot of people that worked here. I mean, good pay—relatively good pay, and a lot of people raised their families and sent them to school on this pay out here. And as far as working out there, we really had fun in the early days. And by the early days, I mean when I hired on. Because I felt very lucky that when I hired on, most of the old-timers were still working. And by old-timers I mean them that hired in the '40s. So a lot of the stories, a lot of things that they knew and interesting things that they talked about, I was privy to. And that was great. And it was, to me, really a fun place to work. I really enjoyed it. Later I can remember saying more than once in the '80s or '90s, this isn't fun like it used to be. And it wasn't. But you know, I was younger then, and that made a difference. I was about 21, 22 when I hired on. And so times changed. I think in the early days--by that, my early days--there was what we call maybe some dead wood. And they might have five people to do a job for two people. But I mean, it was good, it was job security. Well, then came the cuts and so on. I think that made it a little different, because one thing that's bothered me over the years, there's been layoffs. But you can check the records. Many times after these layoffs, within six months they're calling them back, because work has to be done. We might cut 500 people, but that job is still there, so they called a portion of them back. Which, to me, doesn't make sense. But I don't think there's the fat out there that there was at one time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? Any other stories that stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: I think the racial thing was a big story in the early days because there wasn't that many black people working out there. And I can remember us--I mentioned earlier that Richland didn't have hardly any blacks. We had one black I'm aware of. He was a shoeshine guy at the Ganzel's barbershop. His picture is still in there. But I can remember--I must have been six, seven years old--I saw my first black person. I was in a car downtown with my mom. And I saw him, and I just saw his hands and face. And I can remember wondering, I wonder if his whole body is that way—we just didn't see them. We had two black guys in high school. C.W. and Norris Brown, who was terrific basketball players. And the main reason their family moved was because of those two boys. It was a different time then. I don't know it should go on record, because I don't know if it's true or not, but talking about the early people that worked there, one of the stories that I heard--and like I say, whether it's true, I have no idea. But they were out working, and they had a burn barrel. It was very cold. A barrel full of wood and so on, a burn barrel. The construction workers were huddled around it, and this one colored individual this kind of bulled his way in. He wanted to get up to the front. And the story goes--whether, again, true or not, I don't know--a carpenter took his hammer and ended it. And that wouldn't surprise me, though I don't know if it's true or not. Because there was prejudice. A lot of the people that came here were from the South, and it was a different lifestyle. I know that they had separate camps for the blacks and the whites. And it was segregated. So I can remember when I was driving the bus here, we only had--to my recollection—one black in all of transportation. There may have been more, but I think only one. And it wasn't until probably '63 or '64 that they really started recruiting blacks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: I understand there were labor organizers and people who came in with the NAACP and that sort of thing to sort of assess conditions, which would have been about the time you were working in the 100 and 300 Areas. Do you have any recollections of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Well, the one black that I told you about was a serviceman—labor. Same group I was in. And he was the head of the local NAACP. His name was McGee. And the way you became a driver was seniority. In other words, if this driver retired and you were next in seniority, you'd get that job. Well, he was the next one up, as a laborer, for a driving job. They wouldn't give it to him, for obvious reasons. Well, he fought it through the NAACP and he ended up becoming a driver. But they was not going to give him that job because of his race. Battelle, to their credit, was the first ones to make an overt effort to hire black people. And that's where--gentleman you mentioned earlier. And Battelle had--not overwhelming, but a number of blacks working for them. And in inhalation toxicology we had a number in animal care as well as in the crafts. So I would say from '63 on, it started changing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: So this is kind of my last question--we'll have students accessing these interviews. Most of my students now are too young to have remembered the Cold War. It's sort of an older-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: So maybe if you could just talk a little bit about what it was like being part of this Cold War effort, and what you'd like students or future generations to know about contributions to that process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yeah. I know there's different views on this, but I feel very strongly about--because I knew a lot of GIs from that time frame—had two uncles that were in the war. And you know, the atomic bombs, and we made the plutonium here for the bomb, literally ended the war. I am a firm believer--had we had to invade, there'd been hundreds of thousands on both sides killed. And they talk about the badness, rightfully so, of the atomic bomb. But you look at the conventional bombing of Germany, and it was as bad or worse as the atomic bombs. The firebombing of Tokyo. Things like that. So as bad as the atomic bomb was, it did end the war. You'd had to live through it. Now, as far as the Cold War goes, you know, the place wasn't supposed to last much more than ten years. And that's what everyone thought. Well, then the Russians got the bomb. That changed things a little bit. And it was scary. I mean, like I said earlier, me calling my brother communist. I wasn't old enough to really realize what was going on, but I can remember--would've been during the Korean War--my dad came to my brother and I and said, I want to know where you guys are all the time, because we might have to leave town in a hurry. That was the mentality of that time. We had air-raid sirens throughout the town. I can remember every--I believe it was Monday at ten o'clock, they would go off to test. But there was one right behind Jason Lee, where I was going at the time, and it was loud. Every--I think it was Monday or Tuesday, at ten o'clock they'd go off. Because we literally were on standby. We didn't know what was going to happen. And the Korean War and then the McCarthy era, it was a scary time for adults. You know, as a kid, you didn't notice it, other than watching others. But I think Hanford had a lot to do with ending the war. Which ushered in the Cold War, because of the proliferation of the weapons. And you have to give credit to whomever for tearing down the wall, for bringing somewhat of a peace in the world—I say somewhat. I think it was our spending billions of dollars building up our—you know the old saying, peace through strength. That's what Reagan did. He was a big spender, but he got the job done. But Hanford was unique, because I can still remember there was anti-aircraft placements out there. When I hired on, all the old track houses were still there. I worked on a fuel truck, and we would fuel here and there and then we'd go out into the desert area, if you will, and look at these old houses that were still standing. And the old icehouse was still there. And a lot of these buildings were still there in the '60s. And why they had the need to tear them all down, I don't know. I think it was a shame. But they tore them all down other than the bank and the school. I believe about all that's left. No, it was a different time. Like I say, I can still remember my dad telling us both, I want to know where you are in case we have to leave town. I mentioned earlier, the FBI--it was not unusual to have an FBI agent knock at the door and talk to my folks about so-and-so. We had neighbors that lived in the same house—in our A house, our neighbors there was there one day and gone the next. It wasn't unusual to--you're out of here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: Certainly a different time. I want to thank you so much for coming in and sharing your memories with us. I really appreciate it. We'll film all these goodies you brought us, if that's okay-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Peters: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738"> Arata: --before we have to go. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:57:05 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 194 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 100 F Area Z Plant Dash 5 Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1945-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-2005 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Belt, Larry Daniels, Vanis Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leonard Peters Description An account of the resource An interview with Leonard Peters conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/19/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 100 F Area 200 Area 300 Area Dash 5 Plant Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming Z Plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0a5f95a067cc15c8bfd7705114ca6269.jpg 9e12f751613b211e66d587db18607e0a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F99406b7ecf1307fceba5c8061e9a614a.mp4 c229c9e2af641822b5c55f7020ad8681 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Myles Pasch Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Northwest Public Television | Pasch_Myles </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. My name's Robert Bauman. And I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Myles Pasch, today June 11th, 2013 and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities, and I'll be talking to Mr. Pasch about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So good morning, and thank you for being willing to have me talk to you today and be our first subject in this project. Appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Myles Pasch: Welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So what if start by just having you tell me how and why you ended up coming to the Tri-Cities area to work at the Hanford site. How did that come about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well I come about, my mother was working here when I got out of the Army in '45. Why, she already had a job lined up for me out here, and so come out here to take that job that they--the job actually didn't materialize, but I start working with the electrical distribution as a lineman's helper, because of the experience in the Army. I was a communications system in the Army, and so I started out in the line distribution as a ground man for the line gang, and about six months later why the Corps of Engineers turned the telephone system over to DuPont and with the telephone experience I had, they--I mean if you put me in the telephone system and I worked in there then until I--until my retirement. And various jobs from cable splicer helper, to cable splicer, to lineman and supervisor of the installation and maintenance crews, and then supervisor's office. Finally end up in engineering section by the time I retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So you worked in a lot of different places, but mostly on electrical and phone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Just about all of it on phones. Phones, phones, and phone lines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And what sort of job did your mother have when you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: She was in the T Plant, 221-T Plant cleaning instruments and that from the separations group when they--vessels that they had to use for transferring materials and so forth and she was cleanup on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Oh, okay. And when had she begun work here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: She began work there when they went into production. She worked at Hanford during construction in the mess hall, and then she transferred to DuPont and started working soon as--right after they went into production instead of construction. My dad also worked there. Both in construction and in--and he went into patrol, the Hanford patrol, when they went into production. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And do you know how your parents ended up coming here for work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: I really don't. I was in the Army at the time that they did come out here, and so I'm not sure how--other than I know they were living in northern Wisconsin. There wasn't much going on there, and so I know that they tried to find something in the war industry to work on, so they applied for and came out here to Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And did both of your parents continue working at Hanford after the war also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes. Fact is, I think my dad retired in '52. My mother retired when DuPont phased out and they went to General Electric. She phased out with DuPont, but Dad stayed in until 1951, actually, when he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Right. So you said you initially worked for the Army Corps of Engineers and then DuPont? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: No. I worked for DuPont when I hired on in July of '45, but the Corps of Engineers was running the telephone systems at that time rather than DuPont, and they turned the telephone systems over to DuPont in January of '46, and at that time I transferred right over to the telephone section and worked there until retirement. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. So what might a typical work day have been for you back in the late 1940s early 1950s? What sorts of things might you have done in a typical workday? Where might you have gone on the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well, we had to go wherever they needed telephone service, and it was installation of the wiring, telephones, and maintenance of them. And so wherever they needed telephones, we went. I worked in the outer areas all the time, very little in the 300 Area. Most of my work was in the two East-West, and the 100 Areas, wherever they needed a telephone repaired or put in, why, there's where we worked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: How large of a crew or group did you work with usually, would be out there doing telephone repairs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Usually there was about eight or ten men on the telephone installation and repair group, and there was anywhere from one to four cable splicer crews going splicing cable. Especially when they really start opening up in the late '40s early '50s, and they start increasing the size and that of the telephone systems. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So I imagine over the 37 years--is that how long? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes, 37. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Imagine over the course of those 37 years the telephone systems changed quite a bit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes, we started out with--when the Corps of Engineers had it, they started out with common battery switchboards with operators on them in each area, and each area had a 100 or 200 line switchboard, whatever they needed. And when they turned it over to DuPont, though, they'd already had installed a automatic switching station. So right after they turned it over to DuPont, why it switched over to automatic switching stations and the operators were taken off the project. And then it wasn't many years later they had to increase the size of that. They went from a Strowger switching system to a North Electric all relay switching system. And just in the--well not what, in the early '80s or late '70s, why, they switched over to a computer-controlled switching system, which is what they are still using out there now is a computer-controlled. But they went from say 100 lines in each area to several thousand lines and now, and the increase in people and buildings that were put in during that time. During that period of time. When I first started there, there was only three reactors and the East-West Area each had a separations building, but the only one that was actually in use was the 221-T Plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So were some of those buildings more challenging to work with install or fix phone lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yeah, some of them we had to get special permits, special clothing, monitor buttons, and pencils, and badges to go into them. Probably only allowed 30 minutes in some spots. They were restricted to how long you could work in there and so forth, because of the radiation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. So did you have a radiation monitor or some sort when you did that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: We had a radiation monitor. Our badge was a radiation monitor. Whenever we went into an area, why, we got a couple of pencils that you put in your pocket that rated different types of radiation. Some buildings they had to have even another different pencil in your pocket in order to work there. Because there was different types, different radiations. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And, so you mentioned you worked in T-Plant? In there as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Oh, yes, I worked--fact is that was one of our most challenging ones. We went there to work, and you had to drive dressed in double protective coveralls and boots, and gloves, and hoods, mask, and then when you went out, you had to strip all that and you couldn't drag your tools out with you. They stayed, either stayed or got thrown away. So in that one you were very limited on how long you could work in the canyon. That was in the canyon itself. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Yeah. Now for the site itself, when you first started working at Hanford site, given high security and secrecy, did you have to get a special security clearance, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: I had a Q clearance all while I worked there. I had a Q clearance, which allowed you into everything except top secret buildings. The only thing about Hanford there is a need to know basis. You never learned anything about anything else that was going on except if you were doing it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: When you first started, were you--how did you get to Hanford? Were you able to drive your own vehicle or did you have to take the bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: We took a bus out. You could drive your own vehicle off the area, park it outside the fence and that, but most people rode the bus out. They had bus transportation to all areas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And did that continue for most of the time that you worked at Hanford, or did that start to change? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: That continued. Most of the time I worked at Hanford, except the last few years and I was manager or supervisor of the business office. I was working in the 700 Area in the Federal Building. Was then based in there. So at that time I no longer had to ride buses out. But then the last three four years I worked, I was back out in the areas again, but of course I was driving company car out for instructing people on the new telephone systems. They'd set up meetings and I'd go out and instruct them on how it worked and what they could--what they could use of the communication systems. There was a lot of stuff they weren't allowed to use by DOE because it was expensive and unnecessary. So some of the things that they could have had and used, why, they weren't available to the plant operations. Some of the top management had them, but a lot of the systems was not available to the regular—most of the divisions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Now because of the security at Hanford, and secrecy, were there any sort of special phone--concerns about communication, using telephones. Was there any special security or anything like that, related to telephones? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: They always stressed security. That, talk and sink your ship, and so forth and that, to keep people from talking, and of course they had monitoring systems that they--the FBI had one set up in one of the buildings there where they could access any phone in the plant if they had the need to monitor to see if anything was going on that shouldn't be going on. And they then recorded them on little old spools of wax. Little drums of wax recordings that they used to use way back when. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Really? [LAUGHTER] Wow, that's interesting. Did that impact your work at all, the connections at all, or how you did the telephone lines at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: It just gave us more work. I mean we had to--and that was top secret, we were not allowed to discuss that with anyone that this was set up was there, available to the government. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: I’m going to shift a little bit now and talk a little bit about the area, the Tri-Cities area. When you first arrived where did you live? And what were your first impressions of Richland or the area here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well it was--lived in a--with my folks. They'd rented a three bedroom prefab, because they wanted us to come and live with them while I was there. So we lived in that prefab for the first six months, then we moved into one of the B houses down the south end of town. And it was pretty desolate, lot of wind, no trees. [LAUGHTER] And I thought every time the wind blew, why, they'd lose about half their—half their employees would terminate—termination winds they used to call them. [LAUGHTER] And of course the--none of the cities were any too large at that time, and they just grown a lot since. But Richland was all government owned, all the homes and everything was government owned until about '53 they sold the--about '52 or '53 they started selling the houses to the resident who was in the house. And I moved out just before that. We'd moved out and went to Kennewick, so we didn't buy one of the--one of the plant houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Now had you--did you know anything about the area before you came here? Had your parents told you anything really about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Not a thing. Just come for the job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So what was the community like in those early years in the late ‘40s early ‘50s? Because I would assume most people had come from all over the United States to work. What was that like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: They come all from all over from the United States and they--everything in town was government owned. So they had a big recreation building. They had two theaters and they had the recreation building where they would contract some major musicians to come in and play, oh, probably once a month they'd come in and play for a dance there for the people. About the only other--well, we had the bowling alley and one tavern in town. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, the bowling alley and the tavern and two theaters. So a lot of the recreation were just people parading up and down the streets on a Sunday when they weren't working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: So there were theaters to go to. Were there any parades or those sorts of events going on in the summer at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Every year they had parades that the government sponsored. Either parades or art in the park and such as that, that they got started. So there was quite a bit going on, and like I say, every so often they'd get a big band, one of the big bands in to play for the dances. And each department would manage to make a couple of parties every year to keep their people happy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: You mentioned the termination winds and often a lot of people came and went. What made you stay and your family stay there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Oh, I guess I liked the job. [LAUGHTER] It was just what I had always had been doing was telephone work. So I liked the job, and the pay wasn't too bad. And we had all—a lot of free time. I mean on the weekends and that, and it wasn't too far to go out to find recreation in the areas. Fishing or boating or just sightseeing. So we enjoyed—and we enjoyed the climate and that here compared to in some other areas we lived in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Not quite as cold as Wisconsin, I guess.. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Yes. That's-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: I wonder if there were any major events or things that happened while you were working at Hanford that stand out in your memory. I know President Kennedy was here in 1963, right, to sort of open the N Reactor. I wonder if you remember anything about that or are there any other events that really stand out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: That was one time that they even let school out so that school kids could go out there. And our son was in the band, so he was out there playing, and the whole family was out at the N Reactor when President Kennedy was there. Were able to spend the afternoon out there. Fact is, they even got a chance then to take them by the building I was based in at the time, which is out the old BY telephone building. Got to take the family by there, and so we had a family picnic there at the BY building on the way home from the outing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: That's probably the first time family members had a chance to be out-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: That's the first time they were allowed out there at all. I mean if you didn't have a badge you didn't go out there, unless you got special badge to go out into the area. But they had the checkpoints at 300 are and out at--on the highway coming in from the Yakima area--the highway where that highway 24's junctions with it. They had a gate out there, and one out by the--before you got to 300 Area and you had to have a badge to go through there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. And were you able to drive your cars out for that event? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: You could, but they were inspected. Trunks inside and outside as you went through, and--but you could drive your car out. But most people did use the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: I wonder if--what would you like future generations to know about Hanford? What it was like to work there. What it was like living in the Tri-Cities, especially in the 1940s and 1950s and those years in early Cold War years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well, I don't know. [LAUGHTER] That's a--other than the fact, that it was one of the main things that stopped the World War very soon. I mean they saved--people worry about them having killed a lot of people, but they saved a lot lives. And if you look at it in the long run, well, they saved one amount of lives with the production at the Hanford plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: It seems like your work experience in 37 years was generally very good. You liked your job, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Most of the time it was good, yes. It was--there was ups and downs, but it was as a rule it was pretty good. It was a good job and it was a sure job. I mean as long as you did your work and kept your nose clean, why, you had a job for as long as you wanted to stay. I could've stayed on beyond retirement age if I wanted to, but I was ready to go traveling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: And how about the Tri-Cities as a place to live? You mentioned you moved to Kennewick in the early 1950s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: We moved to Kennewick in 1952, and lived there until 2011. I moved back into Richland, about four or five blocks away from where we first started out in Richland. [LAUGHTER] So I liked it in Kennewick, but it's crowded. We found a real nice location out in Richland that we liked and I built a home there, and we--I moved out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Well that's really interesting about your work and seeing the different changes right, with the telephone system and changes at Hanford. So you started with DuPont. What other contractors did you work for over the years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Well, DuPont, and General Electric, and ARCO, and Westinghouse, and main one, Rockwell. Fact is, I've spent a lot of time—Rockwell was one of the last ones that I just transferred over to Westinghouse as Rockwell phased out just about the time they were phasing out and combining a lot of the companies. Rockwell went out and I've worked with--or with Westinghouse for just a short time, then just to carry over until they got it--got all their programs going again right. There's a lot of change every five years at least, why, they were changing contractors, and was always a big change. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Was there a contract you worked for that you really enjoyed working for maybe more than some of the others? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Oh, no. They were all pretty good. I mean they were--had a job to do, and I was working in the same telephone department all the time. We just transferred under different management, and seems like all of those contractors were nice to work for. I mean, they were all—seemed just one as good as the other. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about? Or any memories that you have of either working at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that you think is important to share that I haven't asked you about yet, or haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Not off hand. I can't think of anything. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Okay. Well, I really appreciate you coming and sharing your memories and your experiences working at the Hanford site and being a part, especially of those early years at Hanford. I really appreciate it, and thanks very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: Other than being a little nervous, why, I enjoyed it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Man two: The only thing I can think of—well you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Woman one: Last week my daughter came here when we came for the chancellor thing. And she's 15, and they had studied it somewhat in school, but she had some really strange thoughts, and not really positive thoughts about things that had happened here. And I was wondering if maybe you, since you lived through it, if you could make that—the reality of life at that time more real to them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: I don't know, it just--there was a lot of restrictions and that, that you had to consider, going through that. And the security involved with it was very strict, but I can see where it was very necessary. Any of that restrictions and the production that they made, like I say, saved a lot of lives overall, if you'd have continued with the war as it was going. Why, it brought a stop to it in a hurry. And I think we should be thankful that it did that rather than carry on for invasion of Japan and whatever would have happened after that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Bauman: Well again, thank you very much. I really appreciate you being willing to be the first person to be interviewed as part of this. You get all the little nuances of everything so I really appreciate Mr. Pasch. Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Pasch: You're welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX32632438"> Man one: Okay. Stop the tape. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 249 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100 Area 221-T Plant 700 Area N Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Myles Pasch Description An account of the resource An interview with Myles Pasch conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/11/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 221-T Plant 300 Area 700 Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff3d85bde00e86e0c74863a946d82d95d.jpg afffa7c79551d98dda0f88b751d2c406 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b04b9ce1b21e1ea75e4060d99aac9f3.mp4 50f96b20387d4d3089b3a6aceecfbccc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leroy Noga Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Northwest Public Television | Noga_Leroy </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Leroy Noga: Leroy Noga. But I usually go by Lee all the time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Robert Bauman: And your last name is N-O-G-A? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: N-O-G-A, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Okay. All right. My name's Robert Bauman. Today's date is October 15th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start if we could just by having you talk about how and why you came to Hanford. When that happened, what brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I had hired--in the state of Minnesota. And they painted a picture of all the pine trees and everything, and several of us come out here in 1955. So I drove out here--it was January in '55. And from Spokane to here—it was at night and it was foggy where you could cut it with a knife. I couldn't even see the white line on the side, hardly. Anyway, I stayed at the Desert Motel in Richland. And next morning, got in the car and I see all this stuff that looked like I was on the moon or something. Sage brush. Where's all the pine trees, you know? I couldn't believe it. Everybody's got a picture of Washington with the beautiful pine trees and everything. [LAUGHTER] Including us from Minnesota. Anyway, so then of course I hired in with GE. And stayed in the dorm, men's dorm. And that was another shocker because I'm a ballroom dancer and used to going to several ballrooms in Minneapolis. Big ones--the Prom, the Marigold. And I would always never have a problem to pick up a woman--a nice looking woman to dance with. And here everything was--the women were afraid to go out. They stayed in the dorm and there wasn't anybody to dance with. I was very disappointed and I thought, as soon as I get enough money, I'm leaving town, and I'm going on. I was single at the time, of course. But then I went to work in K Area and K-West. Around suddenly and after I got to see the area a little bit. Of course, I'm from Minnesota, land of the ten-thousand lakes--we actually got a lot more than that. But here it was rivers, and I was unfamiliar with rivers. But after I got acquainted just a little bit, and found out how the hunting was--very good duck hunting and pheasant hunting at the time. I thought, hey, this isn't so bad. And then I tried the river fishing, which was quite different. And that wasn't so bad either. I was able to catch fish. And then I did dance with a local girl that said, well Lee, just stick it out a little while. It kind of grows on you. And I still remember that statement, and I'm still here— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: --after all this time. And I wouldn't move. Of course the area has changed a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: And we had dust storms then. A couple of us bachelors, we stayed in a Bower Day House. And after one dust storm, I think we had about a half of inch of dust on the floor the next day. And that was typical. They weren't too well built, as far as keeping the dust out. And I can remember another time there living in the same house where we had a big snowstorm and then we got a chinook after that, chinook wind. Which we used to get a lot of those warm chinook winds, of course. And I remember the water had melted so fast, that the water had washed a full six pack right in front of our house. And I thought, well that's nice. [LAUGHTER] And anyway, as far as--you were going to ask me some questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. Well I going to--about how long were you in the dorms then? And then how long did you live in the Bower Day House? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I was in the dorms--gee, that that's going way back. I don't remember. Maybe a year a year or maybe a little longer. I remember I missed a piano, because I used to play the piano. And I rented a piano and put it downstairs in a dorm. It was kind of something you don't usually do. But I did it anyway and played. And we ate breakfast every morning at the Mart which is now the Davidson Building, I think it is--right there across from the post office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Big mart, everybody was eating there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: What was Richland like as a community in the 1950s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, everybody kept their doors open. Never locked them. It was a government town so it was very safe. With no crime like there is now. You remember the officers’ club and stuff out the area where they had--well the government tried to keep us here, and so they had big functions out there. Dances and name performers out there. And I was out there a few times--out here in north Richland. The government, of course, didn't want us to quit. And some of us stuck it out, like myself. And I worked for ten years for GE and then GE pulled out. And that's something that really irritates me to this day because--I don't know if--you probably don't want to televise this, but anyway, I think that was timed. The government always has these contractors come in and then they change. And I was—they had a ten year contract to be vested. But they had an age clause. You had to be 28 years old and I was a one month away from that. So I either had to go back east and work for GE back there—but I had a family of four now. And of course I didn't want to go back there and leave my family here. So I didn't get vested. And then different companies come. And Westinghouse, and on, and on. And every time I really had a nice job—I really loved it--a different company would come in. I had to change companies or I had to change jobs. I finally got tired of it and I quit. And I started my own business. And I might mention this--while having my own business, I did security systems, and fire systems, and stuff like that. And I was the first company that installed the first security system out here in the 300 Area. It was ultrasonic over the fuel rod of the pool. And so I thought that was something that maybe someone else didn't do out here, related to the area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Right. And so what year was that then? Roughly around the time period that you quit and started your own business? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, it had to be after ten years. I quit—I don't remember just exactly what year I quit out here. I worked for Battelle. And then I think Westinghouse come in. I think that's when I quit. Rather than change companies again, I just got tired of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Let's go back--if it's okay to go back a little bit. You mentioned your first job was to K-West. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: So what sort of job was it? What sort of work were you doing then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well I was instrumentation, of course. And did all the instrumentation out there. It was a very--I liked it because it was such a variety of different instrumentation. And then some of the really nasty work we had to do as an instrument person was go on the rear face with the water dripping down. All dressed up in rain gear, gloves, and everything double, you know. And the radiation was so intense back there that you could only spend about 15 minutes, 20 minutes, or something. And you were back there to replace these bad thermal temperature devices on the rear face. I didn't really like the working in the reactors too much. And I tried to get into the 300 Area labs, which I finally was able to do. They didn't like to let us go out there in areas, but I finally made it. And then we--in the 300 Area that was very interesting, too. Because there we got the moon rocks and we analyzed those. And I worked with chemical engineers and whatever to get the right instrumentation. Whatever they needed to put that stuff together so they could do what they want. It was interesting work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: We had what they called multi-channel analyzers at that time. We didn't have computers yet. It was—the computer age was just starting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: If we can go back again to talking about working on the rear face of the reactor. You said, you could only be there for about 15 or 20 minutes. Was that only 15, 20 minutes that day, and then you couldn't go back in again that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah, you were burned out for--well I can't remember the period. You were burned out. You couldn't go back there for maybe a month. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Wow. And so I assume you had some sort of dosimeter, or badge, or something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah, you had pencils and stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Mm-hmm. Which they read when you came off the rear face. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Were there ever any times working there that you had an overexposure, or anything like that? Or any of your coworkers, or anything along those lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I was never overexposed, I don't believe. I think there probably were some incidences but-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: None that you were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: They were pretty careful--radiation monitoring were pretty careful to always check the time and they always read the dosimeters. And that was pretty well adhered to. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: And then you said you moved to the labs. Is that the 300 Area, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: And you worked there for several years, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah, I worked there for—I don’t know—eight years or so, maybe. And then when I quit, I came back as the--I quit for, I think 12 years, when I had my own business. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: And then I came back as a manual writer. It was an engineer’s title. I forget the glorified name I got. [LAUGHTER] But it was a manual writer writing procedures N Reactor. Instrument procedures for the--because I was an instrument person. It was an ideal task for me, as an engineer to write the test procedures for instrumentation. For the instrument people there at N Reactor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: And which company was that, for then? Which contractor that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Phew. UNC. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: My mind isn't very good as far as old stuff because-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: That's good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I just remember the stuff—lucky to remember the stuff today. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: One of the events--sort of big events in this period--President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Where you working at-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Kennedy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. President Kennedy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I remember that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Were you on-site? Did you see him? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I was wondering if you could talk about that at all and describe your memory of that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I just remember that he was here and I saw him. That's about all I remember about it. Yeah. That was quite an event. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Do you remember anything about the day at all, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, everybody was just really happy and pleased that he came. He was pretty well loved, you know--as a man. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I wonder--you mentioned earlier--some of the security at Hanford and obviously it was a place that emphasized security, secrecy. Did that--in what ways did that impact your work at all? The sort of focus on security or secrecy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I don't know how far you want to digress from—wherever I want to go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Wherever you want to go, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well talking about security brings up something that I thought I'd mention. And that is after I got to work there at GE for a while, and talking with regional monitoring people, and stuff like that. They got to know me, and I got to know them, and they found out that I was interested in old cars—antique cars. So one of them told me about--there's an old Chevrolet cab convertible out there in the boonies. Somewhere between H Area and F Area. And I said, oh really? And I thought the guy was just blowing wind maybe. I didn't really believe him at the time. But then I got still interested. I got to talking to him and maybe another monitoring guy, and it sounded like there really was one out there. So I looked into it further and I thought, well if there is, how do I get it? How can I get it? So I talked to Purchasing and Purchasing says, well you'll have to bid on it. And I said, can I bit on it? And if so, I don't even know if I can find it. I said, is there a minimum that I can bid for it? No, no minimum. Just fill out the papers. So I bid a minimum of $25. And I got a security clearance to go off the road. Because this was just out in the boonies. No roads, just out in the sage brush to look for it. Somewhere between H Area and Rattlesnake. So I asked a friend of mine who had a Jeep if he'd go out there with me. And we used his Jeep and we hooked a trailer behind, and off we went. We got permission to go out there. And we drove around quite a bit. And we finally found it. And we winched it on. And then I thought, well now I wonder if I can get a title for this thing from the state? [LAUGHTER] But being the contract from the government, and that I bought it--the state didn't hesitate at all. And I got a title for it. And this is one of the originals from an old homestead out there. You could still see some remains of the homestead. Of course the government went and destroyed everything. And most of the automobiles--I don't know if you know this--but most of the automobiles that were out there, the government made a special attempt to destroy all the engines. They took sledgehammers and busted the engines up. They made special attempts to--so the automobiles would never be used again. I don't know why, but that's what they did. This one somehow escaped. And the engine was still in it. But the head was off of it. But it was still restorable. And I have not restored it yet, after all these years. But now comes a time when I'm trying to get somebody interested in it. And if so, restore it and give it to him. Because I don't have that many years left. I'm hoping that somebody might help me a little bit financially to do it. And I would then donate it to whoever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: But you still have it after all these years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I still have it. Yup. It's been in the garage for all these years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. That's interesting that it was a car from one of the old town sites—old home sites there that was still sitting out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I had not heard that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yes. I brought it up because it is a very rare incident. And I think I'm probably the one and only that has done something like this. At least maybe the first one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: And I'm also the first one, like I say, to put a security system out here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. So thinking back on your years working at Hanford, what were--and maybe you've already talked about this--what were the most challenging aspects of your work there and the most rewarding parts of working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, most challenging? Hmm. Oh, you know, it was all challenging, really. [LAUGHTER] It was very different. The instrumentation—when I first went out there, I was not a technician. I was a trainee--I had to be a trainee first. And my technician was not all that—didn't seem like he was there that long either. He didn't know all that much either, I don't think. [LAUGHTER] And I can remember one incident, they had an instrument that had mercury in it. We had to be careful how you calibrated it. And it wasn't my fault, because I was just a trainee. But my technician blew the mercury out. It went all over the control room which was not a big--nobody really appreciated that too much. That was challenging. That was kind of challenging. You had to be very careful, as an instrument person, with what you did. And if you worked in the control room, like in--what's the first--the reactor they're making a-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: B Reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: B Reactor. If you worked back there at the panel gauges, you had to be very carefully that you didn't bump something, because they were very sensitive. Any movement, jar or something--and you could trip the reactor while the reactor was up. And you had to calibrate some of those things while the reactor was up. You actually had a lot of responsibility there. If you knocked the reactor down--and you could--you didn't hear too many good comments. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah. How about the most rewarding part of your work in Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, when I—I don't know. There was a lot of rewarding things. When I came back to work again after a 12 year hiatus, so to speak, they closed N Reactor down, and I had to find another job. There weren't that many jobs available at PUREX because there was a lot of people looking. PUREX had a job for a project engineer job. And I interviewed for it and I said, well I'd kind of like this. But I don't think I'm qualified. I said, I'd like to have it, but I'll be honest with you, I don't think I'm qualified. Because I don't have a degree. A chemical degree is what you should have had for that job. But down the senior engineer that was doing the hiring--he called me and he said, Lee, you've got the job if you want it. So I thought, what the heck, I'll try it, you know? [LAUGHTER] But I was able to find the niche there where I was needed. And it just so happened they were replacing all the electrical main panels, you know--and everything like that. So I was then the project engineer for doing that. And the people from Kaiser, who actually came out and did tests and everything--I had to approve everything that they wrote up. And from the PUREX standpoint to see if it was safe, and so on, and so forth. That was rewarding. It was a challenging job. And then from there, I went to Kaiser. And there I got a job writing procedures for electrical code violations. So I had to write procedures to correct all—bring all the stuff up to code. This was a little bit out of my element, because I was an instrument technician. But I just got the code book out and learned quick. And that was rewarding, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I wanted to go back to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: I wore a lot different hats out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah, right. I want to go back to almost sort of first question I asked you. You said you came from Minnesota and you'd heard these sort of stories of Washington State, or whatever. What were you doing in Minnesota before you came here? And how much--what did you know about the Hanford site itself? Did you know what was being done at the Hanford site, and that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, I guess I should have known more. I really didn't know anything about it, particularly. I was just young, I guess. The recruiter came through and it sounded good. The money sounded good. And some of my--I went to Dunwoody Institute there. That's where I hired out from in Minneapolis. And some of the other students also hired in with GE. So I thought it probably was a good thing to do to start out. Good experience. That's actually what I trained for there at Dunwoody was instrumentation. I went there--I tried to go to college, but I didn't have any money really to support myself. And it was even tough to support myself at Dunwoody because I didn't have no help at all. I had to work part-time every night. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Do you remember how much your first job at Hanford paid? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Oh, boy. [LAUGHTER] I don't. But there was overtime, of course. It paid pretty well. Although I've made more even before that, one time. It's a little off the subject again. But I worked on the Garrison Dam in North Dakota. And here again, I wore a different hat. Me and a buddy of mine, we hired in--we bought a brand new toolbox, put it a saw in it, hammer, and blah, blah, blah. And hired in there at the Dam as journeymen carpenters. The union--which is real strong--they'd been needing people so bad that the union official didn't check us out, which he should have. And big money. I saved the checks for a long time. We went double-time. Worked on Sundays. An astronomical amount of money. But then we got greedy because we heard they were making even more on the outlet side. I think I worked on the inlet side, and we when on the outlet side. Well, I worked there about two weeks and then union guy got wise and we had to quit. I can't remember but I it was a couple of hundred dollars a week, which was pretty good money at that time. I don't remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: You talked earlier about finding the car, and being able to purchase the car, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Were there any other sort of unique things that happened or things that stand out in your memory during your time working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: No, other than meeting a girlfriend out there. [LAUGHTER] I don't know. I worked in almost every area out there. I worked in all the hundred areas. I worked at PUREX. I worked in 200 Areas, 300 Areas. I worked in almost every lab in 300 Area. I worked in 325, in all of them, 329. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Of all the different places you worked, the different jobs that you had--was there one that you enjoyed the most, that was--looking back on it, you'd say it was maybe your favorite job that you had out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, all the work I did in 300 Area was very pleasing to me. And of course after that things changed a lot when they start shutting down things. I really did like N Reactor. I will say that. They were the--of all the places I worked, it was like a family. They were the friendliest, nicest bunch of people to work with. Everybody seemed to know everybody, and you know, it was very pleasant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: So it's a group of people you worked with that made that so enjoyable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Yeah. Yeah, the whole N Area was just--I really hated to see that close. It was, like I say, like a family. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: So if you look back at your time working at Hanford, overall, how would you assess your experience working in the Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well it--other than what happened to me changing jobs all the time, other than that bitterness--really my employer was the government. And they should be the ones that--I shouldn't—break in service, and all that stuff. You shouldn't have lost it like I did. I lost it when I quit. And then I went back to work there again. But that's the bitterness I have. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Which you'll probably leave out of this interview. [LAUGHTER] But other than that, it was a--I'd never tried it really. It was a wealth of experience and rewarding. Like I say, we did interesting things. Counted moon samples and it was very interesting--always. All the experiments we did, it was different. The engineers were always trying to think of something different to do. How to lower the background so that you could count very low background stuff and radiation. It was always interesting, always challenging. And then after that when the work there at 300, when I quit and went back, it wasn't fun anymore then. I mean, then things are closing down, pretty much. I closed PUREX down. I worked there and then they quit. They closed down. N Reactor closed down. And everything was closing down. That's when the fun stopped, kind of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you then obviously, at some point, the effort shifts from production to clean up. And I wondered how that impacted some of the things that you did? Was it that you saw a lot things shutting down at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, after things started shutting down, of course just overall morale went down. And the sense of purpose didn't seem to be there anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: I teach a class on the Cold War. And a lot of my students that I teach were born after the Cold War ended. And obviously, you were employed at Hanford in the 1950s and 1960s--the height of the Cold War in many ways. If you were talking to someone who didn't really know much about the Cold War, or was born after it ended—how would you explain or describe Hanford during that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Well, let's see. That's a big question. How do I feel about it? Do I approve of how the government just took over things and ordered everybody out without any money? Reimbursement until much later? How do I feel about that? Well, I've got mixed emotions about some of that stuff. How do I feel about dropping the bomb on Hiroshima? We made the stuff and how do I feel about that? I still have probably mixed emotions about that, too. But I guess it's something we had to do. I have to accept that. One thing I will say, what went on at Hanford could never have happened in the time frame that it happened there at Hanford. How they designed and built like the PUREX Building, for instance. It's simply amazing. Outstanding workmanship and performance. It's unbelievable, almost, what happened in that short period of time. And it was a very dedicated workforce. Of course we didn't know a lot of what we were doing when we first came out here really. But we just did our work. It was interesting. And we all really were dedicated and liked our job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet? Or is there anything else about your experiences at Hanford that you'd like to talk that you haven't had the chance to talk about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Gee, I don't know. I have a son that still works out—more or less works for Hanford. And he is getting a furlough, maybe today. Because our government’s shutting down. Mixed emotions again. [LAUGHTER] As far as Hanford, like I say, it was a good experience for me. And I'm not sorry I came out here. Not sorry I went to work for Hanford. Lots of good memories. And a lot of my friends, a course though who are gone. I'm one of those hold-outs. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, just so many of my friends that hired in when I did, they're no longer around. I'm 83 right now, so. Yup, time goes fast. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your memories and experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX145880437"> Noga: Thank you. </div> Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 Kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:41:57 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview K Area K-West Area 300 Area H Area F Area N Reactor B Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1960 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leroy Noga Description An account of the resource An interview with Leroy Noga conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-17: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/15/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear instruments & methods 300 Area B Reactor F Area H Area Hanford (Wash.) Hunting K Area K-West Area Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e70e5f6902f36a8dce5b5ec4f9229c3.jpg 2299143b7462e91e44a8263168c065d0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F668060df69888e4182ac2a6dd4aa0020.mp4 1c1a7cedc234e0082608686d3d8c0ae2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Samuel Moore Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Northwest Public Television | Moore_Samuel </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Robert Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman, and I am conducting an oral history interview with Samuel Moore, correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Samuel Moore: Right, Samuel-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: This date is July 9, 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Moore about his experiences working at Hanford site, living in Richland and so forth. So maybe let's start actually from the beginning, if you want, could you tell me how and why you came to Hanford, how you heard about it, how you got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Okay, I'm going to tell you how I got here. My father was working at a cook in the mental section of Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. And he came home, and he says, there's a better job at Hanford, Washington. So he left and came out. Then he told them that I can't be here without my family. So they put us on, I think it was a troop train, and it stopped in Pasco and set us off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Could you--where is Camp Chaffee, Arkansas? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: It's east of Ft. Smith and that, so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And how old were you at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: About eight. And then we come in--put us off of this I'll call it a troop train, because there was a zillion soldiers on it. And it picks up and they took us to Kennewick to a place called Naval Housing. And that's where they put the people coming in for Hanford workers to stay until a house was available. And we stayed there, and then from there we moved to this nice little square building which had a flat top, set up on stilts. And it was called a prefab at 1300 Totten Street. And that means that we lived at the end house. The telephones were on the telephone poles at the end of the block. So when the phone would ring you were told to answer the phone and go get whoever it wanted who. So that's the way we started in Richland. And we lived there for I don't know how long. And then we moved to different houses around Richland until I graduated from Columbia High School, which was Columbia High School in Richland at that time. Now it's Richland High. And then after that I did a short job with a construction company. And then I went to work for General Electric, running one of their blueprint machines when they were getting ready to build the REDOX Building and the PUREX Building. So I'd go, I was the first one in to warm up the machines and run them for a while. And then after while I got uplined and I could deliver those suckers out into the area. So that was my starting with General Electric then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay, so let me go back a little bit. So what year did your family arrive then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: 19--it was either 1943 or '44. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay. And your father, was he a cook here also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No, no. He'd come out and he was a, as we call them today, rent-a-cop. He was a patrolman out there. And he worked as a patrolman ‘til he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And you said that your first job was with General Electric, and what year would that have been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: About 1953 or 4. Then I went from there, like I say I was in the blueprint sections and all that. And then I had a job—I got a chance to become an engineer's assistant. And then when they were going out and building different things, so that helped me get into the other sections of General Electric and so on. And when that one cut, I transferred into radiation monitoring. And that was when they had the Hanford labs, and the old animal farm was at 100 F Area. So I worked in that group until--I forget what year it was. I'm not good on years and dates. But when they decided they were going to re-tube all of those reactors out there in the hundred areas and so they could put bigger slugs in them and all that stuff, I worked on that until about 1957. And they said, guess what? We're not going to pay you anymore. So I left here. But I stayed with the government job. I went to the Nevada test site and blew all the plutonium up that they made out here. So then I came back to Hanford in 1960. So then I was still in radiation monitoring and worked all kinds of different places, tank farms and everywhere else out there that I could think about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So it sounds like you worked all over the Hanford site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: All over the Hanford site, that's right, yes, everywhere. And I worked a lot of the times at the burial grounds in 200 West Area. When they would take the big wooden boxes to PUREX and REDOX and they'd fill them. And then they'd pull them up, and they'd put a big long cable on the whole string of cars, and that box was way down that string of cars. And then when they get up to the burial ground, the train and it would coordinate, and they'd pull it back. And as the cable would come around, and when the box got to the trench, the train would stop. And they'd just spin it around and down in a trench. And then we get the honor of riding the bulldozers to set those freights so they could cover them up. That was one of the deals. And the other times I worked in a lot of the tank farms and pulling pumps and putting new bearings in those pumps and all that kind of stuff. It was an experience, believe me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Yeah, I'm sure it was. So a lot of this was with radiation monitoring? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: It was radiation monitoring. And I was in radiation monitoring until 1980-something. And I had a little problem out there, and they wanted me to release some stuff. And I said, uh-uh, not me, it ain't mine. So they said, well we've got this other section over here that you should be in, so I got into the safety part with respiratory protection. And I was trained to repair the breathing air things, like the firemen use. I was trained to do that, fix the PAPRs, and the escape packs, and all that stuff so. And check over places for where they—oxygen levels to where they could go in and work and all that, so that was my last eight years of Hanford, was in the respiratory section I'll call it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And so when did you retire then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: In 1994. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So almost 40 years minus the years that you were with-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, yeah. Well as the way I said, when I came back to Hanford in 1960, they told me it was a temporary job, it would probably only last six, eight months. Well, I found out that at Hanford a temporary job is pretty permanent. It only lasted 33 and 1/2 years. It's a temporary job there, so I guess at all turned out pretty good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: I guess you could consider that temporary. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Temporary, yeah. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So many interesting things that you've worked on. So let's go back to the early years. First, in the 1950s and you talked about radiation monitoring, something with radiation, you did blueprint and stuff, but then radiation monitoring? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: And then radiation monitoring, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay, and some of that was with animals? Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, I went into the animal farm on some certain times, but I wasn't assigned there for anything. The big one I was assigned to was what they called the 558 project, which is when they re-tubed all of the old reactors. And that was, you'd go in and set dose rates for all the people when they're working. And so it was a deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And now Hanford, of course, is a highly secure site, right, lots of security, secrecy to a certain extent. Can you talk about that at all? I mean, in terms of getting to work or at work, how did that impact you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Most of the places where I was, the secure part of it wasn't that strict. But other places like, some of those buildings, yeah, they were really a strict situation. And when I go back a ways, when my dad and we lived in this—I call it the slum house on Totten Street--nobody knew what was happening. Nobody knew. I didn't know what the guy next door was doing, and they didn't know what my dad did. Until I think it was 1944 or '45 when they announced what they were really doing here. And it was kind of a shock, that deal, so. That was my deals of the secrecy out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Now, did you have to have special security clearance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yes, yes, I did. I had special clearances, yes. I had everything but the very top secret one. And that was real handy because when I left here, I went to the Nevada test site. I had to use the same secret pass. And then the same thing when I come back. It was very, very--what am I trying to say here? I mean, I'm an old guy. I'm just about at the end of the road here. Most of my work, like I say, was the tank farms, and those places, where secrecy was not involved in that. And it was like times when you'd have a spill, you dig it up and prepare it to the burial ground. A lot of that was the work that we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And you said your first job was at General Electric. Obviously, there are different contractors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Now, who all did you work for over the years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, we went to General Electric. Then it went to there was one called Isochem, Rockwell, oh there's a whole slug of them, I can't remember all of them. So it seemed like every time you'd turn around, they were turned over to somebody new. But it was Westinghouse when I decided I would better leave before I had a real problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So can you talk about what was happening there toward the end that made you want to leave? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, I was, like I say, I was working on the PAPRs and all that kind of stuff. It got to be a real drag, you know. And everybody was doing that then. It got to the point where every time you turned around, everybody was wanting this, and wanting this, and wanting this. You're only one person. And I was a guy that did most all the fixing. So I decided--to my wife, I said--I call her the voice from the other side. She said, what's the matter? And I says, well, before I mess up on one of these pieces of equipment and kill somebody, I think I better retire. So we just decided, okay. And she worked for the Hanford Project, too. And of course she was much better off than I was. She worked for one of the big managers as a secretary. So we just decided that was it. And we had our nest eggs saved up and said, okay, it's retired and we're going to see the world. And we did that until my one eye decides to go bad. Then we had to stop. Other than that, I'd probably been in who knows where. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: While you were working at Hanford were there any significant events, or sort of, things that have happened that sort of stand out in your mind specifically? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, and I was trying to think. It was about 1962, graveyard shift, 233-S, it caught on fire and it burned. And it was a big mess. That's where I wound up with my shot of plutonium in my bones, as I'll say, from that fire. And, of course, back in those days you didn't know what was what, so they worked on it and cleaned it up. And but there's a couple of contamination things that sticks out in my mind. One of them is, we used to bury the material from 300 Area which is, I guess you would call a Westinghouse, Battelle or somebody. And we used to dump them into caissons in the backside of the 234-5 Area. And we had one of those that kind of broke open and messed us up a little bit. Took us maybe six, eight, hours to get cleaned up so we were able to go on our merry way. But those are the only two that really stick out in my mind. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Did you miss any amount of work as a result the exposures when you had those? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Nope. Nope. They just cleaned you up and said go back to work. You all have to remember that back in those days, all of the things that happened in a lot of places, we didn't know. We didn't know what the repercussions was going to be. We didn't know that. Now, this is why we're paying for a lot of stuff right now is because we didn't know how to do all that stuff. But like I say, there's a lot more people that know a lot more about that Hanford stuff than I do. Like I said, it's been many a year since I worked some of those places, too, that I can't remember some of the stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Sure, sure. The radiation monitoring group, how large of a group was that? And how many employees do you know, have an idea who worked-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: There was probably about 60 or better. But each company, I think, had a group of their own. The 200 Areas had one big group. The 100 Areas had a group. And then 300 Area had a group, so you put them all together there was probably more than 60-some. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay, and just to—you said there was a fire in, you think about, 1962. Was it the 200 Area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yep, in the 200, down behind the REDOX Building. That just, poof, was it and it went, so. And I think the reason they had the fire was because somebody had some greasy coveralls and stuff and didn't take care of them the proper way, and the first thing you know, poof, they were on fire. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And this was where there was radioactive material? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, it was back in the radioactive area, so everything got messed up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And at the time you probably didn't know necessarily everything, but you've had some health problems since then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I won't say that my health problem is caused by the contamination that I had or was dumped with. I've had quite a few of those. I've had a melanoma cancer in this ear, and I had a very large contamination that got in that ear and area. So I've had to have some surgery done there, skin grafts and that kind of stuff. But so far it hasn't slowed me up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. Were you working here in 1963 then when President Kennedy came to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And do you remember at all? Were you there that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No. Well, I was on a project that day, but I was not out where he was. I was one of the, I guess how would I say this, the lower steel, so I took care of the work over while everybody went to that. But yeah, I was here. I came back from Nevada on September 13, 1960, and I worked till '94. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And then I wanted to ask you a little about Richland. So other than when you first got here, it sounds like you lived in Richland most of the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: How would you describe Richland as a community at the time, as a place to live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: It was very good because at that time, when you were there, you didn't even have to worry about locking doors. I mean, everybody was—it just one big thing. It was a government town and everything would deal like that. And nobody really did—didn't have the vandalism or anything like that around town. And as you probably know that, if you're familiar with Fred Meyer’s on Wellsian Way down there, that was a swamp deal, because that was where Richland got their drinking water. Like I said, I lived in 1303 Totten the very first time and then we moved from there down to on Benham Street. And I don't know how to say this, other than the way I normally say that, but that was down where we called the turd churn. That was the sewage plant down there. Then from there I moved back up to Swift. And then in--I was trying to think when it was, 1963 or so, they did away with the old irrigation ditch that came through Richland and goes underneath Carmichael, because that's where they flooded the cattail place down there for the drinking water in Richland, and let it seep down and pump it up. And they busted everything up and back about then I was reading the Villager, I think it was, the Tri-City paper, and there was a lot for sale on Totten Street. So I bought it and went out and looked at it. It was the old irrigation ditch. And I built a house over the old irrigation ditch, and I still live there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And you—when you first arrived you were a child. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: What was it like going to school? I'm assuming that there were people from sort of all over, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: All over. Yeah. And you just walk to school. And it was, like I say, there was no buses or anything, you could walk to school. And everybody just seemed to fit right in, you know. Nobody had any qualms whether I was from Arkansas or anywhere else. But like I say when the first house there in Richland, Wright Avenue was the last street in town. And beyond that was one of the most fabulous cherry orchards that there was. And when you were a kid you'd slip over in the cherry orchard and get cherries and take them home to your mother. And she could make you some jams, jellies, or whatever pie, or whatever. But it was a deal. There was quite a group of kids that came from all over the country. And they just seemed to fit in, none of this gang thing or anything like that. They were just, everybody was all buddy-buddy, you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: You mentioned you went to, what was then Columbia High School. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: How about elementary and middle school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: And in elementary school when we moved the one that I really remember was Lewis and Clark down on the south end of town. And I went there until one of the, I'll call them students decided to burn it down. And they burnt Lewis and Clark down. And so a lot of us were told to go up to Marcus Whitman and finish off the year up there. So we did that. And then them from there on Carmichael, the junior high, was being built and I think they opened it up at about a mid-year. And I was one of the ones I went there the mid-year into Carmichael and then over to the high school after that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And so what year was that the Lewis and Clark burned down? Was that like in the late '40s then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. But the funny part of it is, not too many years ago they arrested a fellow down in Portland. And he was laughing about burning the building down. So I guess they couldn't do anything to him, but they found out who burned it down now. Yeah. Well, there was Lewis and Clark, Marcus Whitman, Sacajawea which was right there by Central United Protestant Church was the old Sacajawea school. And then there's Jefferson which is still going. And our fabulous people are trying to shut it down, move it, and do something else with it. But who knows what's going to happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Do you remember when you were growing up and going to school and living here at that time any community events, parades? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Oh, yeah! Atomic Frontier Days was a big—the big, big thing. I have breakfast with a group of Columbia High graduates and I can't remember what her name is, but she was one of them that used to run for the Queen of Frontier Days. And there was a couple others. But that was the big thing. And they used to take—Howard Amon Park turned into booths, and just like a big fair down there. So it was things, and then all a sudden they decided to move everything around to the Tri-Cities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And was that in the summer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, that was always in the summer, you know. And then the big hydroplane races, they would come in, but they were the old ones that had the 1,200 or 1,300 horse-powered gasoline engines in them, the noise makers. But that was about the extent of the things. And if we go back I can remember the floods came through and when they build all the dikes that they're tearing down now. But I don't think they got to worry about that, being as the dams are still functioning. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Do you remember some of the floods? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Oh yeah, I can remember the flood deals, when they built the road up to going to the Y. They had to build all that up because you didn't get to Kennewick when the flood was on. Well, it was right up to the George Washington Way road there by wherever the guy that has the petrified stumps down there. The water was just across the street from his house, was right up to the edge there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So I want to go back now to Hanford itself and your work experiences there. You talked about some specific things you did and some specific things. How would you describe Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Hanford was a real good place to work. It was really good work, and good place to work. Mainly I think because you didn't know everything that was going on. So you knew that you had your section, what you were doing, and you didn't want to make waves or something like that. But to me, Hanford was a good place to work. There was a lot of--I had a lot of good friends that came up through the, I call them the ranks. They were, like I worked in the blueprint and there was guys that drove the mail trucks. We wound up as a real knit group of people there. They work out of the old 703 Building, which part of it's still there. And we used to have Coke breaks and go back there. And everybody put a quarter in the pot and then get your Coke bottle. When it was all through whoever had the bottle that was from farthest away got the kitty. So it was a good place to work, really. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And I guess is there anything you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, I would like everybody to know that where this country really screwed up was when we dropped that bomb and blew up everything. We kept everything too secret. They should have let everybody know what that was and what was happening. Today we would have had a better deal of doing what they're doing today if they'd done that, I think. Now that's my opinion and no one else's, but if they would have just let them know what was going on, and what happened, it would have been a lot better. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And then is there anything that I haven't asked you about in terms of either your job at Hanford—or jobs, I should say, at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Or living in Richland? That I haven't asked you about, that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No. Like I say, Richland was a good place to live, though, and Hanford was a good place to work. I mean you did your job, and everybody else did theirs, and everything worked out just fine. There's a lot of things that I'm not too sure of what happened. But a lot of those places they did have things when they were doing experiments for the Navy and all kind of stuff out there. But I didn't get in on any of that stuff at all. It was one of those deals, you go in and you dress out, and most the time the monitors were the first ones and the last ones out. So that was the deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: When you did that, did you wear a badge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, TLD, thermoluminescent dosimeter. So you always had a badge on. I understand that some of the guys used to take theirs and set them aside so they wouldn't get too much radiation, so they would be eligible for overtime. But I wasn't into that overtime route. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And so how would you know? How did it register that you had too much exposure? How was that read? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well they put it into a meter that would read what the thermo was. And the original ones were--what am I trying to say? Film, there was a film. And they would read the film of what, how much had been exposed to that. And that's how they got your dose rates there, how much you took. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And did that change at some point to some other method? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, they used the film badges to start with. Then they flipped over and they found out they could use these, what did I call them, thermoluminescent detectors, which is you put at charge on them. And I guess the radiation would discharge the charge. So they'll know how much was used off of it. And then you had pencils that you read, that would tell you, that would read if you were supposed to take, let's say, 50 MR. Well you'd set that when you come out, you'd be there and there was always time keepers. There was a time keeper in that group that was taking how much your exposure was, and how long you had been there, and calculating it to when you should get yourself out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And they would let you know that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: And then they'd tap you on the shoulder and say, go. So then they’d go out. And then there would be somebody out there that would get them undressed and check them, clean them, and make sure they were all, no contamination on them and either send them to lunch or home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And that sort of procedure-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: That procedure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: --throughout the time-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Throughout the whole time I was there, yeah. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: All right. Well thank you very much. I really appreciate your being willing to come in and talk to us. And very interesting-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, like to say, there's things out there that my mind just doesn't pick up on them right now. So probably middle of the night at one o'clock, I'll wake up and say, golly, I should have told him this. But no, that's the deal. But really, Hanford was a good place to work and to me, it's been real good to me. I got a good retirement off of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: All right. Well, thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: You bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: You bet. And seeing now that he's got the shut off, I'll tell you about my week. I took my motor home and went to Ilwaco. You know where Ilwaco is on the Columbia River? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Man three: Yeah, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: On the way over there. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:35:10 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) 703 Building 100 F Area 200 West Area 300 Area 234-5 Area 200 Area 100 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1953-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1953-1994 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Samuel Moore Description An account of the resource An interview with Samuel Moore conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-16: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/9/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region 100 Area 100 F Area 200 Area 200 West Area 234-5 Area 300 Area 703 Building Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0f094d5a53d9f182e7f0e025e2f2b8be.jpg 8c6a9bb1b96c15e52e5e257665176a13 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0f2c69c8057ad2de89bc821a77371c1e.mp4 a98291ac678ac0e576af292cdf1abeae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Danny Henry Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 220 kbps Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Northwest Public Television | Henry_Danny </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: My name is Danny Henry. Spelling is D-A-N-N-Y. Middle initial is R for Ray, R-A-Y, Henry, H-E-N-R-Y. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: All right. Thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities on July 2nd of 2014. So let's start maybe by talking about how and when your family first came to the Tri-Cities. When that was, and why they came. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Okay. Actually, my father first of all came to the Tri-Cities. And he came to the Tri-Cities, I believe it was somewhere around '48. It was in the mid or late 40s. And he actually came out from the South, from Arkansas--Atkins, Arkansas, Polk County. And he was married to my mom at that time, but she stayed back in the South, and he came out to work for the government during the war effort. And he worked out here for some period of time. I don't know how long, but he liked it out here. And so once his mission was done, he went back to the South. And then later years, came back out and found work with the railroad. And then eventually he started working construction. And he became a laborer, and worked construction. Then he came back out to the site, and worked at N Reactor for some period of time. And I can even remember back in the 60s when John Fitzgerald Kennedy came out here, the President, to give a speech about the N Reactor. I was a kid. I think I was probably about seven or eight years old, maybe 10, somewhere around there. And then he decided to stay out here. When he came back out to the Northwest, back out to Washington, decided to stay out here and got work, and then sent for my mom, and she came out. And so they made a life and stayed on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Hm. Do you know how he originally heard about Hanford? It's a long way from Arkansas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: My understanding from my older brother, which is 20 years older than me, he said that he actually received direction from the government, or allowance from the government, and received gas credit, or chips, or whatever, in order to drive out and to show up at the Hanford site at some designated time. And so him and another one of his friends both drove out, and they went to work out here during in the 40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So he was recruited in some way or something, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yes. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So then you were born in the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yes, I was born in Pasco, Washington in 1953, May 7, 1953. And I graduated Pasco High School, went on to college, and graduated from Evergreen State College, and then returned back here to the Tri-Cities and found employment out at Hanford. First of all, it was with Rockwell, and with the fire department. I'll back up a little bit. During the summer of when I was in high school, two summers, I did work out for J. A. Jones at that time in the 300 Area, and I actually worked as a printer, or learned—as a summer job, and learned how to print on these old, offset printers. And did that for two summers. And so when—actually I had graduated from college and came back. While I was at college, I did receive an emergency medical technician certificate through the State of Washington, and so it was a good shoo-in to go to work for the fire department as a firefighter. So let's see. It was Chief Good at that time who hired me. And at that time there was only a few that had EMT certifications. And Chief Good had told me that there was no intention at that time to actually have the fire department respond for emergency care. They had always called the Richland fire department, or Kadlec, or some other emergency services. And so I didn't really see a whole bunch of future in staying there at the fire department. So I heard that they were hiring down at N Reactor for reactor operators, and the pay was a bit better. So I thought that would be a challenge. And so I applied. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: And so you got a job there, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah. I started working at N Reactor, I believe it was late 1978, and went into the reactor operator program, and eventually—well, started in the fuels department, and then had the opportunity to get into the certification program for the control room. And decided I would take on the challenge. There was a lot talk back and forth with the other operators. Some was pro and some was con. No, it's not really better to work in the control room. It's better to work in fuels. But I seen a challenge of being able to actually operate a reactor. And I really wanted that certification. And so I did go in the certification program. And after, I think, two years, two and a half years—I think the class started out, I think it was like 24, 26. And the final certified reactor operators, I think there was six of us. I could probably name them. Yeah. And all the other operators dropped out, and they went back to fuels, or they got into the trades, or just left the company. But I stayed on and was certified. It was very, very challenging, very hard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Right. And so how long was that training program again? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: The training program, I think it was about a year and a half, two years. With all of the qualifications, you had to be trained on all the different systems. You had to get checked out by the senior operators, and they would ask you questions, and make sure you were proficient in every one of those before you got the sign-off. So you had to complete all of that, as well as take tests, periodic tests, on the systems. And when you had finished all your actual qualifications, then you were allowed to take the eight-hour exam. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Oh, okay. Hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: And so once I had finished up mine, there was testing. And I took the eight-hour exam, and passed the eight-hour exam. I think I probably took about 10 hours to finish it, but that was fine. And passed the exam. And from there, you were then allowed to do a walk through, where a senior trainer would take you out into the facility, and basically ask you anything he wanted to, all the way from the front face, to the rear face, to the confinement valves, to the emergency cooling system, and anything in components or valves, and circuitry, and all of that. And I passed that, and did quite well. I spent a lot of time actually—when I was an operator, the duties primarily was laundry, because there was a lot of SWPs, or radioactive clothing that was used. So someone always had to maintain laundry. And then also some of the duties was housekeeping. Some of the duties was actually patrol, where actually you went through the reactor, and made sure all of the outside systems and everything was in correct alignment, and there wasn't any out-of-spec conditions. So I spent a lot of time out in the reactor. At the time when I was out, I took it upon myself to take prints with me, and actually verify and look at a lot the systems out there, so I knew them pretty well. So that was one of the things that really worked for me when I did my walk-through. I was really ready for that. And I think I scored highest in my walk-through of the three tests. The final test was the oral exam. And the oral exam consisted of a senior person from training, senior person from operations, senior person from nuclear safety. And they all sat on your board. And I think there was one other individual also, I think may have been quality assurance, maybe. And basically they sit in a room like this, and you sit in front of a table, and they ask you questions, and you answer the questions. And they had the choice of asking you whatever questions they chose to, as long as it related to reactor operations, up to and including the electrical distribution systems that powered or brought power to the reactor, as well as the power going out, steam systems, all of the different auxiliary systems part of the plant. But anyway, I passed that exam also, the oral board. And so then I was granted my certification. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: A pretty grueling process. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: It was, very much. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: And so how long were you an operator, then, how long did you work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Actually, as a certified operator—I maintained my certification, I believe, for a year and a half, maybe two years. There was a requalification. I think it was about a year and a half. I did operate the reactor, the nuclear console, the AA console. That probably doesn't mean anything to you, but the water systems, or the actual nuclear panel, where you actually pulled and maintained power, and adjusted power, and also a lot of the air balance systems, and the secondary systems, where the steam was produced and sent over to Washington State Public Power. We sold steam. It was a dual purpose reactor. And worked on all of the panels. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: And so before you were an operator, you worked in fuels, you said. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So what sort of work did that entail? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: The fuels operation--[COUGH] excuse me—was actually--the fuel that would come, that would be the spent fuel that was discharged out of the rear of the reactor would come out, go down, and go what was called a trampoline, and go into the water, and hit this metal mesh chain type of trampoline to slow it down. These fuel elements were, I think, as I remember, somewhere around 50-60 pounds. So coming out of the back of the reactor, they were there pretty heavy. And so then they would roll down into conveyor carts, and that's one of the duties as a fuel operator, doing charge discharge. You'd basically take the fuel after it went through the cart, move it out, index it, take it out, and then place it in various different storage compartments in the back face of the reactor, or actually in the basin, what was called the fuels basin. And then also--that was the primary job of a fuels operator, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: And so how long total did you work at Hanford, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Total time at Hanford is 35 years. I've been out here 35 years. It's been a long haul. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Yeah. And so you started in the late 60s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: '78 or '79. I believe my actual start date was 8/1/1978. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So you were there for a little while, and at some point the mission shifts to clean up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: How did that impact the sorts of things you were doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Well, one of the things about being--as an operator, is that you work shift work. And so I actually worked shift work, I think, for like three years, rotating shift, A, B, C, D; graveyard, swings, days. So I never got used to that. I had a family. I was just starting a family and stuff, and I wanted to be able to spend a lot more time with my kids and my wife on normal hours. So I looked for another job at N Reactor, and there was an opening for actually a process standard engineer/nuclear safety engineer. And so I applied for it. I got the job, and was responsible for maintaining standards, process standards, which is day-to-day operations. If there was any changes or deviations to the operations, there had to be approval. There was an approval process. And so I was kind of responsible for maintaining that, reviewing it, and then approving it through the control room, through my management, in order to make any changes to reactor operations. Pretty much that was that job. It was straight days. I liked that. Five days, I was off the weekends. It was great. And there was some other opportunities also during that time in that position. I wanted to mention, I had a very good mentor. His name was John Long, and he was the nuclear safety engineer, or nuclear safety manager, manager of nuclear safety at that time. And John was very instrumental in assisting and helping me, and I really do appreciate his efforts. He's deceased now. But anyway, John helped me quite a bit when I was in that position. There was other opportunities also. I moved from there, and became—actually went into the planning aspects of outages. And so the reactor would run for so long, sometimes there was a planned outage, sometimes an unplanned outage. Unplanned outages usually were because the reactor scram for some reason. Maintenance had to be done, something had to be fixed or repaired. So for the actual planned outages, I became a planner/scheduler, or took a position as a planner/scheduler, and actually planned to do various different maintenance. What that consisted of was drawing out a long-term plan, and when the reactor was down, to manage that plan, and for the systems to be fixed, repaired, coordinated for the least amount of time so the reactor could actually come back up and running. We were being paid. And it was one thing I wanted to mention about N Reactor. There was a lot, a lot of good spirit. The people who worked out there, they really knew that they were on a mission. This was during the Cold War, and we knew what we were doing, and it was just a lot of good spirit. You know, when you'd ride the bus out--by the way, I rode the bus back and forth. And when you'd be on the bus, and the reactor was down, and you'd get past the fire department, and you'd make that last left turn, people would just kind of wake up. And they'd be looking, and they were looking to see if that green light goes on. There was—on the board, there was a green or red light. And someone up front would say, yeah, we're up. And it was just a lot of that kind of spirit of wanting the reactor to run. I really, really liked that. So being a part of the--doing the planning and scheduling, or a position as planner/schedule was a real shoo-in to going to work as outage manager. I then became an outage manager, where actually I managed the outage center. And the outage center basically coordinated, on a daily basis, on a shift basis--there was six of us, and I guess you could say we were kind of elite, we were very picked to run that, because it was so critical to the mission—and your responsibilities was to make sure that things got done as scheduled, as planned, and that you had the craft resources to do them. You coordinated with the operations folks, the fuel folks, the engineering. That was your job, to coordinate all those efforts. A lot of the things that happened in the plant and the repairs actually required that you have engineers in place in case there was questions, technical questions, changes to paperwork that had to be authorized, and so on and so forth. So that was part of the job as outage--primary job as an outage manager is to make sure of that. And you reported directly to upper management, and sometimes DOE. So you were responsible on a daily basis to coordinate and have those meetings, and ensure that work got done and statused at the end of the day. So shortly after that, they announced that—or probably, I guess, maybe about six to eight months in that position--they announced that N Reactor--after Chernobyl--they announced the N Reactor would no longer be on the same mission, and it was going to shut down. So I moved from there to another job. I actually left N Reactor, and went to 200 Area, and worked as a nuclear safety engineer, over for—I'm trying to think right now. I can remember who I worked for. I worked for Arlen Shade. But actually, my responsibilities was over B Plant WESF. And at that time they had just started to bring back the capsules that was basically sent down to--I forget exactly--Decatur, I think. Yeah. And anyway, these capsules, there was some problems with them. But anyway, they were bring them back. And so I was right as part of that. I don't know what happened to that mission, but I served there as a nuclear safety engineer with oversight responsibilities over people at WESF for a period of time. And then after that, let's see. I almost have to look at my resume to think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: It's really been--it's actually been that long. Of course you're going to be cutting and doing clips and stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: So I can just-- Oh, by the way I have a--I actually pulled this out. This was actually my certification. Wally Ruff's name over to the right there kind of faded. It must have gotten wet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Oh, yeah, huh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: That's the original certification. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: What's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: --the control room on the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't know exactly what you guys would want, but I just grabbed some stuff. This was my 30-year recognition with Fluor. I don't have a 35. I don't know. They didn't give out a 35-year recognition. I don't know why. Let's see. Where am I? Process standards, senior outage planner, outage manager of nuclear safety, principal engineer. Oh! Yeah. Then after that there was—actually, when I was--as the nuclear safety principal engineer oversight over B Plant WESF, there was a position that came available for a manager for OSHA compliance, OSHA safety and health program. We had previously been benefited, let me say, with headquarters coming out, and they were called the tagger team. And they basically came out to the site, and they went through the whole site, and they were doing assessments. They had a very, very large group, and they assessed the site, with the effort to give feedback to the improvements that needed to be done at Hanford. Well, part of the actions, or corrective actions, was to develop an OSHA type of assessment program that would look at occupational safety and health, industrial hygiene, and in some aspects, I think, fire protection. Anyway, there was a position open, and I did not have the background in occupational safety and health, but I talked to my manager, and talked to my manager, and finally I convinced him to put me in as a temporary position, just as an acting manager. And so he went ahead and authorized that. So I then moved from the outer areas down to 300 Area, and from there, he basically said, okay, Danny, you want this position. You think you can do it? He says, okay, here's a stack of resumes. You have two staff and that's it, and a student worker. Okay, so you need to first of all hire and find some people that are qualified to be inspectors in occupational safety and health, and hygiene. And then you need to have all this done, by the way, and a program developed in four months. And so that was quite a challenge. It was really a challenge. I did hire—went outside and hired some people, and they were good people. We were a very good team. I didn't know about occupational safety and health, but they taught me. I knew I could hire people that were smarter than me. And I actually hired--and maybe for reference, one of the people was Judy Larson I don't know if she still is living. But she was a certified industrial hygienist. She was working for PNNL, and she transferred over. I also hired a student that--well, no, he actually had graduated with a mechanical engineering degree, and he wanted to do fire protection. So I said if he came over I'd get him trained up. And so he came over. And I also hired another individual that was an industrial hygienist—or two other individuals, a Clinton Stewart, and the first occupational safety and health person I hired, his name was Steve Norling. And he would be a good person to interview in the future. I would recommend that you do that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: How do you spell the last name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Norling. N-O-R-L-I-N-G. Steve. He's a good guy. He still works PRC. I haven't seen him in a few years, but I think he's still out there. But anyway, we developed a program. We put the program together, hired a contractor to actually help us with the writing of the program, and we set it up. And we actually went out in the site, and first of all, we had to compile all of the buildings, because we were basically responsible for all of the Westinghouse people, and all of their facility. So we had to figure out all of the facilities in the whole site. And then we had to have some kind of system to figure which ones we would go look at first, based upon risk. And so we developed that program, and to make a long story short, the tagger team came back out to check the corrective actions on all of the site, and when they got to us, our program, they had no findings, absolutely no findings, zero findings. And they only had one recommendation, in that we needed to involve the employees more. And so then we transitioned into the Voluntary Protection Program. But that was very outstanding. And that really impressed my management. So then from acting manager, I was made manager of the organization, and proceeded on to continue my career. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So what time frame was this, roughly, then? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Oh, let's see. That was May 1991 to September 1992. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Okay. Let's see. From there, I transitioned into basically manager of safety programs assessments, which developed. And basically our mission at that point was to develop baseline hazard assessment programs for facilities. And basically, for each facility that you had operations in, to go and do a baseline hazard of everything, both the occupational safety, industrial hygiene, the nuclear aspects of it, and any other types of hazards, so that for that facility, all of the known hazards of that facility would be known and could be communicated, and basically programs and systems set up in place to keep the workers safe. From September 1992 to February 1994, I worked in that position. And after that, I worked as the manager of the Voluntary Protection Program, or actually manager of Industrial Safety Planning, which consisted of managing the Voluntary Protection Program for Westinghouse and for Fluor Hanford, doing their contract transition. And of course the Voluntary Protection Program is still out here on the site, as you probably well know, and there's different--but I was very instrumental in getting that program off zero. After that, I worked as operations engineer. I transitioned and went back out to the site, to 105 K-East and K-West. I worked as an operation specialist in development of the Canister Storage Facility and the Cold Vacuum Drying Facility out at K-Basins and at 200 East, is where the Canister Storage Building is. And then also K-East and K-West storage facility. I was assigned to the shift office, and worked as an OE, Operating Engineer, basically under the direction of a shift manager. And basically managed the facility's work activities, coordinated those on a daily basis to get work done, assigning work to the craft personnel, releasing work packages during lockout/tagout, and various different aspects of operations for that facility, managing that facility. After that, let's see, that was from 1998 to 2002. And from January 2002 to present, I've worked as a management assessment coordinator. And responsibilities are primarily to develop the Management Assessment Program and Integrated Evaluation Plan database for DOE-RL. And let me explain, that Integrated Evaluation Plan is basically a database that takes RL's assessments and our assessments, and basically puts them together, so we have one integrated plan. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: And that effort is to actually benefit, or to alleviate, or eliminate redundancy in assessments, teaming with the site and doing various different assessments, rather than they doing one and we doing the same one. Yeah. So that's currently where I'm at right now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So you've had several different sorts of positions. You've worked at N Reactors, and K-Basins, and different parts of the site. Of the different jobs you had, over the 35 years, different places you've worked, what was—was there a specific job or place that was sort of the most challenging and/or most rewarding, that you got the most sense of accomplishment or reward? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah, there was. I would have to say probably the reactor operations was probably, I'd say, number one, because I know there was no other African Americans that had ever certified at N Reactor, and then later on I found there wasn't any others in any of the other facilities of the plants. So I felt very good about that. And it was very challenging. The second area would have been in developing the OSHA compliance program, because that was basically, I knew basically nothing. And I had to go find people in order to work that were much smarter than me, and be able to develop a program that would actually meet the muster of headquarters when they came back out. And it was very challenging. I stayed up quite a few nights thinking about it and worrying about it. And yeah, it was very challenging. But it was a very, very well-put-together program, and it met everything that they were looking for. So I'd have to say those two positions were the most challenging, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: When you were talking about working at the N Reactor, you talked about riding the bus, and the sort of spirit, the sense of mission, I think, in the Cold War-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So when the Cold War ended in 1989, 1990, did that sort of sense of mission change? Did it shift somewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: I guess I couldn't really expound on that, because what I was speaking of was during the time I was working at N Reactor. And once the Cold War ended, I was at that time working--when did the Cold War end? That was-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Well, I guess it depends, right? The Berlin Wall came down in '89. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: When the wall came down. Okay. Yeah. I was—where was I at at that time? Yeah, I was actually up in the 200 Area. I was oversight. I was a part of an appraisal team doing integrated safety appraisals out of the 200 Area. So I had transitioned away from N Reactor some years before that. So I didn't really feel a difference with what I was doing. The real thing that I seen that really affected a lot of the people at N Reactor was when they announced that it was not going to—it no longer had a mission. It wasn't going to be restarted. The reactor was run very hard, run very well, and produced a lot of power, and was very good in its mission. And there was just a lot of pride there. And when that was announced, there were a lot of people that really was hurt by that, because it was a reason to come to work. It was really a reason to come, and a reason to work for something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: I want to go back to something you talked about early when you started talking. And you mentioned President Kennedy's visit when he dedicated the N Reactor. So do you remember that? Did you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: I actually remember that very well. And in fact, it was my father, and my mother, and my sister, and me, and my friend, Ronnie Brown. I haven't seen him in years, but I understand he's doing well. My dad brought us all out to the site, and drove with all of the, what seeming like thousands and thousands of cars, you know, we were just kids, and all the way out to N Reactor. And yes, I definitely remember that. I can remember the helicopters coming in, and the dust flying, and all that. And I didn't know that President Kennedy's hair was red. [LAUGHTER] But on that day, seeing him that close, because me and my friend, we kind of wormed all the way up as close—we were just little tiny kids, so people let us by. And we got up there, and we were able to stand up on—there was like different seating that people had brought. And we just kind of stepped up on one of the little seats that were there, and we had to get our heads up over the crowds. And we could see him when he stepped out of the helicopter, and he walked over to the podium. I can remember that, just like the yesterday. I also remember that day very well because my sister—it must've been over 100 degrees there--my sister was suffering from heat exhaustion. I remember when we actually came back, my mother was taking care of her. She was getting water into her, and everything. That was a very vivid day. That was a very, very, very good day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: What I also wanted to ask you was, like growing up in Pasco in the 50s and 60s, was it a segregated place? Or was it—what was it like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Not when I came along. Not actually in the 60s. I hear stories about the way it was, but I don't know. I went to Pasco High School. I went to Stevens Junior High School. It was all integrated. My grade school was Whittier. It was integrated. It just was East Pasco, and it was primarily blacks. But also there was Hispanics and whites all went to that school, but it was predominantly black. Then after, actually, when I finished sixth grade, they divided sixth grade, and then seventh, eighth, and ninth. It was junior high school. I was selected, because of where I lived in East Pasco. I was assigned to go to Stevens Junior High School, which was, at that time, way across town, and nothing, hardly anything around it. So we rode the bus over to Stevens. But prior to that, the majority of blacks, African Americans, Hispanics, basically went to McLoughlin Junior High School. But McLoughlin at that time was what is now Pasco City Hall. That used to be McLoughlin. [LAUGHTER] But my brother goes back, I mean my brother's deceased. And he passed away, in fact, about a year and three months ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: This was your brother who was about 20 years older? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah. He actually went—the high school at that time was McLoughlin, which then became City of Pasco. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Okay. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: And Whittier was the grade school, junior high school when he went to school. I do have some pictures of him. He was part of the patrol that went out and let the kids across the street and stuff. Yeah, he had the little patrol hat on, and all that. I have all those pictures of him when he was really young. And by the way, my brother, he is 20 years older than me, but he graduated from Pasco High. He then entered the Army--or no, he was drafted. He was drafted, and he actually fought in the Korean War. And he corrected me. Every time I said Korean War, he said, no, it's the Korean conflict. It was not a war. [LAUGHTER] And he served two terms in Vietnam, and was wounded. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: What was his first name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Thurman. In fact I have a—here—obituary out of the paper. But he had what I consider a pretty impressive military career. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Yeah, 20 years of active service. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yes. Two terms in Vietnam, a very unpopular war. Me growing up in the 60s, it was, gee, I've got a brother that's overseas fighting, with all the racial strife and stuff here in the United States. But he was very proud of his country, and he was willing to go and do whatever he was assigned to do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: And so you had an older brother, and how many other siblings did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: I had a sister. I actually had a half-brother and a half-sister, that—they didn't live here. They lived--Margie lived in Wichita, Kansas. And my other brother, half-brother, lived in--I think he lived in Wichita, Kansas, too. I didn't really get to know him that well. I got to know Margie pretty well. Then I had my sister, Marilyn. She graduated from Pasco High School. A teacher for 34 years in Yakima. She just retired about three years ago, I think. And still living in Yakima. But she taught school. And those were all of my siblings. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So would you say that Pasco, Tri-Cities was a good community to grow up in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Yeah, I think so. I really think so. No, I don't have any--I have to just--not so much the community as much as pointing back to my parents. I think I had very--I've seen other people, my friends with different parents and stuff. And I think I had some pretty good parents. My dad was very industrial. He worked construction as a laborer, but he had rentals. And he had--and of course, I came along much later. But he had houses and rentals, but he worked construction. And him and his best friend, Mr. Louzell Johnson. He was a bricklayer. My dad was a laborer. They kind of was a team. And they worked, and they built a lot of houses throughout Pasco, Kennewick, and Richland back in the 50s and 60s. And he worked on a lot of the dams on the Snake River. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Oh, really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: The building of a lot of the dams. And I can just remember--well, I can remember my mother talking, and also my dad. And on Sundays we would take drives, and he would take us way out to where the dams were being built, and stuff like this, for something to do on Sunday for the family. And I didn't pay any attention to it really. But I can remember. I can remember. Those were very good times. My mother, she worked at the Navy base that was in Pasco. Have you heard— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Yes! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: --that there was a Navy base there? She worked in the laundry at the Navy base. And then we came along, my sister and me, and so she just stayed home and took care of us, and my dad worked. But I spent a lot of years painting, and fixing hot water tanks, and unplugging sinks when I was a kid. I was very cheap labor. [LAUGHTER] So I learned to do that stuff really early in life. So that's pretty much my parents. They were very good people. Anybody you ask, they were very good people. There’s the obituary of my mom. I didn't get the obituary of my dad. I didn't find it. I have it somewhere, but there's this picture here. Anyway, go ahead. I just—I’m kind of rambling. So you can--it's a good thing you're editing this, and you can cut out all the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Are there any other events? You talked about the JFK visit. But any other events that sort of stand out in your mind from growing up, or from your years working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: You know, I can't really--not really. Not really anything that really, really stands out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: So overall, then, in looking back at your 35 years working at Hanford, how do you assess it as sort of a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Overall, I'd say that Hanford, for me, it's been a very good place to work. I was given opportunity. You know, I had opportunity. And anyone that's going to achieve anything in life, if they prepare themselves, and when the opportunity comes, they step forward and they take it. I mean you can't much ask for much more than that. My dad gave me some advice, of course, when I first started working out there. You know, he said, make sure you keep your eyes open, and you watch everything around you. And do not worry about if there's people against you, because God will always put one person there for you. And I always remember he told me that. And so I think about that, that different times during the time I worked out there, the people that have been there, that have assisted me and mentored me, and helped me to continue to do better work, a better job, and basically to feed my family and keep on living, as my mother would say. Yeah. I can't think of any other outstanding--there's been a lot of accomplishments, just small little milestones that have been made in safety and our management's commitment to safety, and our management's commitment to the workers, and making sure that they are heard, and that they're actually dealt with, and talked to, and gotten back to when they have safety concerns. And I guess there's a lot of pros and cons about that. But I see safety as being not just the number one thing at Hanford, but being integrated in all that we do at Hanford, is how I see it. And so I know there's a lot of things—I've seen the media. I've seen there are things that are going on out there that I don't know about. I have not worked in some of those areas. But for all of the areas that I have worked and been in, that has been the primary concern, is safety. And you compare to what we have out at Hanford, compare it to out in the real world, and we have a lot of commitment and concern, and actually management standing up, and taking responsibility for things, and actually dealing with them, trying to correct them, and working to try to make events or things that happen not reoccur. I actually brought a--you can get back to your questions, but I'll forget. But I actually sent off--you know, I seen it on television, and then a fellow employee told me about the Cold War Patriots? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: And you probably know. I got my little certificate. And I got, actually, the pin. Whoops! I actually got this pin that came with it. And I have it—of course I can't bring my badge in here, because it's a Hanford badge. But I stuck my little pin on the badge, and so I thought that was kind of neat. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Yeah. Actually, I talked to the Cold War Patriots last week about the project here. Well, I don't have any other questions for you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Oh, okay! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Unless there's something else that we haven't talked about yet, or I didn't ask you about that you think is important, to-- We can--Eric can actually film some of this sort of once we’re done talking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Eric: Yeah, anything that you showed him we’d want to get photocopied. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Okay, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: They could always integrate that, then, into the interview. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Okay, sure. Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Anyway, thanks very much for coming in-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: You bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: --and doing the interview. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Okay, yeah. You know, if you don't step forward and make sure that you're a part of history, you won't be. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Absolutely. So how did you--I was going to ask you, how did you hear about the project? Did [INAUDIBLE] contact you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: Actually, I was at a PZAC meeting--President's Zero Accident Council— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238"> Henry: --meeting--and there was an individual that works-- </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 200 Area N Reactor 105 K-East 105 K-West K Basins 200 East Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1953-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1978-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald) Long, John Ruff, Wally Larson, Judy Stewart, Clinton Norling, Steve Brown, Ronnie Henry, Thurman Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:52:04 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Danny Henry Description An account of the resource An interview with Danny Henry conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-1: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/2/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear instruments & methods Pasco(Wash.) Richland(Wash.) 105 K-East 105 K-West 200 Area 200 East 300 Area B Plant WESF K Basins Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Washington State Public Power Supply System. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fea9f9be8e167dfb935591d617ccc4c54.jpg 8c3738fec6884afa34e5950678c91640 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff7b408a8660a5970b818fe119251bed5.mp4 f60b636cbba2fd60f67abb2a10310008 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hendrickson, Wally Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Hendrickson_Wally Robert Bauman: If I'm not talking loud enough, let me know. Wally Hendrickson: Okay. Bauman: And if you need to stop to take a drink of water— Hendrickson: Oh! Okay. Bauman: Fine, no problem. Whatever. Hendrickson: Though Hanford wasn't involved, I once went to Vietnam to remove the highly enriched uranium fuel at a research reactor. But that was out of Idaho Falls. Bauman: Oh, okay. So it wasn't it directly connected to your work at Hanford? Sort of? [LAUGHTER] Hendrickson: Peripherally, some of the fuel came to the 300 Area and was used in the TRIGA Reactor here for work done on FFTF. Bauman: I think it would still be interesting to talk about that at some point during the interview. Are we all ready to go? Man one: Yup. Bauman: Well let's start by first of all just having you state your name. Hendrickson: I'm Wally Hendrickson. Bauman: Okay, great. And my name's Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. Today's date is July 30th of 2013. So I thought we could start by first of all just telling me how, when, why you arrived at Hanford. Hendrickson: It goes way back. My mother's cousin worked here from the early '40s on. And I knew about the reservation because of family visits. But I first came to work here in 1955. I was an engineering student at University of Idaho and got a summer job here with General Electric--that was a contractor at that time--for the summer. Oh, it really suited me. I've been very interested in science and technology all my life. In high school I wrote a paper on disposal of radioactive waste. And I have four engineering degrees. I've really enjoyed technology. And I had the idea--idealistic young fellow [LAUGHTER]--that engineers could do a lot of good for the community. Bauman: And so what was your--you said you had like a summer job here when you were a college student. What sort of work did you do then? Hendrickson: Yes, it was for technical people—technical students. And it's to give the student a chance to get an early experience with a large technical organization. And, of course, the managers here would look at the students and wonder if they would want to have them when the students graduate. And I've worked here for one year in 1957 - '58, and I was a tech grad, with a few the listeners may know. At that time, a technical graduate like an engineer, or a physicist, or a mathematician would be given four three-month assignments to work in different areas at the site. And I remember—oh, later for that. I was really pleased at that opportunity. And one of the four three-month assignments I remember so well was water treatment. We treated Columbia River water for its use as cooling water in the breeder reactors—or production reactors, I think they're called—that we had here to make plutonium for weapons. And we cleaned more water than the city of Chicago. And our criterion was solid particles, not dissolved stuff, but little dust things that float around in the river and organic things. And I believe we sought to have the particles no more than 0.01 parts per million. And we had tricks that, I think the rest of the world still hasn't caught on to. [LAUGHTER] After the normal type treatment-- Is this dragging on too technical? Bauman: No this is interesting, keep going. Hendrickson: Well, most municipal water treatments were much like ours, except ours was really jazzed up. And they'd put in a chemical that would form a flock. It looks like a tiny piece of cotton floating in the water. And when it forms it readily picks up some dissolved material, but particularly particulate material. And that would settle when the water flowed through a very, very large swimming pool. And then water would go to filters. And they were really fancy filters. I wonder if the rest of the world has caught up with that technology. And we'd add Separan, which was like Lucite, a polyacrylamide, which would give a particle in water with a number of valences so it would attract particulates and enmesh them. And they would settle out or be filtered out. And I was able to work with two really great guys. One was a lawyer. [LAUGHTER] He'd minored in chemistry in law school, and graduated during the Depression, when you couldn't buy a lawyer's job, so he taught chemistry in high school. And there was a law, whose name I don't know, that enabled the government to essentially draft people with skills critical to the war effort. And he first went to a munitions plant, and then here. And I remember he set out to educate me. [LAUGHTER] He told me about the first breach of promise suit in America; that was during colonial times. Where a man died, his life agreed to marry the neighbor, and then thought that oh it's too soon. And he sued her for breach of promise, and was given property from her. That's because in those days it wasn't thought quite proper for women to have property in their name. So he actually lost something. Bauman: So what was this lawyer's name, this man's name? That you were-- Hendrickson: I can't remember now. He was big, and I think he died in the '70s. And I talked to his wife when I came back here in the '80s, and she said he remembered me and would talk about me. Bauman: So that was one of the four areas you worked during your-- Hendrickson: No, that was a full time employee. But I was a tech grad during that time and three months in water treatment. Oh, and another very interesting assignment was looking at the water of the river--or rather, looking at the contamination that mostly the cooling water for the reactors would contribute to the Columbia River. And one bit of--I guess it's a biological thing—that amazed me, phosphorus-32 would be made by fast reactor, fast neutrons, on the aluminum cooling pipes in the reactor tubes. And it would produce phosphorus-32. I think I'm mixed up here. I'm not sure what the target was, but anyway it would get into the water and algae would pick it up--hungry. They're hungry for phosphorus. And the concentration of phosphorus on a weight basis of the algae is 300,000 times what was in just the water. And my colleagues, they would say, well, what does that mean? How is it does it affect health? And they found that whitefish--if they didn't eat the algae, they ate something that had eaten the algae. And it would get into their bones. Now, when you eat whitefish, you usually don't eat the bones, but they didn't calculate—they didn’t take that into consideration. And they knew that some people fished quite a bit out of the Columbia and feed their family the fish. So they calculated what this exposed people to. And if they fished all through the year, and ate all of the fish and ate the bones, they would be getting close to limits for nonprofessional radiation workers. And I was really surprised when I heard about people saying the information regarding exposure of citizens was kept secret, because the very year I was here, '57-'58, the Public Health Service studied radioactivity in the Columbia River and wrote a report, and I had a copy of that report. Bauman: So were levels of phosphorus sort of the main finding from the work you did in terms of the possible impact on— Hendrickson: Yes, though I believe some aquatic worm at the mouth of the Columbia would pick up cobalt-60. And they were hot. Of course, people don't eat the worms. And I don't know if the fish do or not. There was so much work to study what became of the radioactive materials in the effluent, and what kind of hazard that was. And I remember—I'm sort of a chemist too. I remember reading the reports of the radiochemists about the techniques they developed and applied to analysis of radioactivity in the water—either effluent or the river itself. There are people that got to go up and down in a motorboat catching fish for some of this. [LAUGHTER] But much of the radioactive analysis had to come after quite a bit of chemical separation. A lot of things will get radioactive. And if you try to count a dry sample, it would be impossible to distinguish between those radioactive material, or nearly so. And they would use standard inorganic chemistry to separate different isotopes. And this place ran 24/7, and they liked to keep close track of the effluent, so they would build automatic systems to sample and automatically go through the chemical separations. If you've ever been in a hospital that has their own lab, you'll see big machines that are just amazing at being able to analyze for different organic chemicals in the blood. It's all automated. Nowadays, it just comes out printed on a sheet, sounds easy. But there was a time when it was very laborious. Bauman: Do you know if there were any changes made to any procedures in terms of water after the results of phosphorus and that sort of thing? Hendrickson: Well, changes--now I don't think there were many. They did they spend a lot of time finding out what was in the effluent, and what it would do to people. And my recollection is it that it was quite a ways away from any limit, any conservative limits that we operated from. I had heard, though, that the water treatment plant at Kennewick in those days filtered out radioactive particles. And if one went over to the filter bed—I suppose this is after the water's gone down—with a Geiger counter, it was quite radioactive. That was in 1957. Yeah, let's see. Oh! Yeah, this is embarrassing. My bosses said, well, some reactors are better than others in reducing phosphorus-32 material, why is that? Is it a function of the water treatment? So I was set out to set up one reactor. It had split water supply systems. So one reactor ran as normal, and the other half of the reactor ran a little dirtier. And we ran it for quite a while. Stuff builds up on the tubes, fine particles. If you see something in a pond, you might—well, certainly you'll see algae growing on it, but you might see accumulated clay particles. And then we purged the reactor. We ran in diatomaceous earth, which is nearly pure silica from little diatoms, the bodies of little diatoms. And that would scour the fuel elements. And this is done periodically to keep the amount down that we generated. And we took samples, then, during the purge, and they didn't make sense. And a couple weeks before that, I'd gotten some records from an accountant who was stationed over at the coal fired plant that generated steam. And I told him I need to see these records, and this is why. And he says, well, but there is no correlation like you suggest. And I got the records, and yeah, there was no correlation. [LAUGHTER] And my bosses had to admit that they didn't realize that. I suppose they'd gotten some idea during a short period of time that wasn't typical. Bauman: So, how long as a whole did you work at Hanford, and what other areas did you work in? Hendrickson: Well after '57, I started a doctoral program in physical chemistry at Washington State University. It was a very difficult time for me. Let's see, we had gotten a raise as teaching assistants there, up to $200 a month. And I had a bachelor's and master's in chemical engineering. So I didn't have as much chemistry as the other graduate students. It would pretty hard. And I kind of washed out, partly for financial reasons, and took a full time job at the research reactor in Pullman. Now it's called Harold Dodgen Radiation Center is the name. And he was a wonderful man--full professor of both chemistry and physics. Wonderful man, and so well trained. He was from Berkeley, as were some of the other faculty that I had. Well, I eventually got another master's in nuclear engineering and a PhD in engineering science. And then I came here for six months as a summer prof, they call them. Bauman: So what year would this have been? Hendrickson: That was in '71—July of '71. I came and unloaded my earthly possessions on a day that was 113 degrees. Oh! When I went to Pullman, I left the 13th of September, and the heat wave had not yet broken. And to that date, we had had 100 days above 90, and 30 days above 100. That was before anything like air conditioning in buses was thought of for [LAUGHTER] the people that worked here. Yeah, I would be away from home 11 and a half hours a day, be picked up by a shuttle bus that would deposit me at the big bus lot and then take a big bus out to wherever. And it was a toss-up of whether we should have the windows open or have the windows closed, because the air was so hot. Bauman: As so what were you working on then? Hendrickson: The four tech grad assignments. And I've spoken of two—water treatment, and another looking at the radiation impact on the Columbia River. And then I worked with the group that--they called them material and processes. And when something had to be done--a lot of things fell in that category—and they would finish up engineering if it were a new piece of equipment. And then see to procurement. Or they would work on a better decontamination material. When something gets into the contaminated water, the contamination will absorb onto the surface and stay there. And to get it off, you have to do some pretty strong chemistry. And [LAUGHTER] I've seen car loads of decontaminating reagents laying out in the sun, and I'd go test them. It's amazing what industry--Turco was a supplier of these decontaminating chemicals. And they would send us batches of new stuff that they'd worked up. Then we would test them here with our contaminants, and we give the results to them. But they wouldn't tell us what was in the samples they had given us. And I thought that was kind of a dirty trick. And then, I remember one fellow was working on epoxies. And I'd used epoxies at the research reactor in Pullman, so I knew something about that and thought it was interesting. Now there's a fourth one, but I can't remember what it was. Well, after I finished the doctorate, I came here for six months and then had two and a half year postdoc at the Naval Ordinance Laboratory. Then I worked at Idaho Falls at the chemical reprocessing plant and got run out of there and came to the DOE at Hanford for 20 more years—ten years with FFTF and ten years with the radioactive waste tanks. The waste coming from reprocessing fuel--reprocessing to recover the plutonium. And for a while, they were recovering the uranium, because we had huge quantities here that they wanted to use. They would put it back into service at another reactor. When I was here for six months as a summer prof--excuse me. That was really challenging, and when it was all over, I finally realized that what they had done was given me the unsolved problems of 17 years of operation. And it was daunting. One thing I worked out with caveman techniques—no computer, [LAUGHTER] nothing like that. But I had to know the chemistry used to separate CCM and strontium from the radioactive waste. And they were separated and put in a different place at high concentration. And then, those long half-lived isotopes, fission products, would not be in the humongous million-gallon tanks of waste. And they can use ion exchange resins to take out strontium. It's harder to do cesium, but they could do that, too. Bauman: What years would this have been that you were working on this stuff with the tanks and so forth? Hendrickson: Well in '71 as a summer prof, I did six months. And then, when I came back in '80--I came back to Hanford in '80, and I worked through the end of the century. The last ten years I worked on the tanks and the tank farms. Because of my technical interests, I would often get safety issues and the documentation that money is spent on in great quantities at facilities like this--environmental and safety documents. What was your question again? Bauman: Oh, my question was just about the time period that you were working on the [INAUDIBLE]. Hendrickson: Oh, time period. Yeah. It was in the '70s. And at the post-doc at the Naval Ordnance Laboratory. I worked for a man that had been extracting and measuring cesium in natural waters. That means in a lake, a river, in the coastal waters, and up, I want to say Kamchatka. There's a string of islands that go from Western Alaska down, almost to the Siberian coast. And a lot of bombs had been tested in the atmosphere, and the fission products go up. They absorb on bomb casing material and sand and whatever happens to be for it to absorb on. And then it falls into natural waters. And the government, through its various agencies, keeps a track—kept monitoring this. And my mentor at the ordnance lab had been following cesium. And the sodium, potassium--oh my goodness, what's next? I want to say--it's been a long time since I had a chemistry course. They're very difficult to remove from anything. They don't readily form insoluble products. But there are a few compounds that can be precipitated from an aqueous solution to a salt that's insoluble that will take out some of these very soluble ions. And for cesium--cesium was a third one. Below sodium is lithium. If they mix a solution of nickel chloride, nickel sulfate, with a solution of sodium or potassium ferrocyanide, a precipitate will form. It'll be nickel ferrocyanide. And it starts with a couple of these getting together, and then some more bump into them, and more and more, until you get a real crystal. Well, when this goes on, the cesium is picked up, just as if it were a sodium. No, that's not right. It gets into the crystal structure. It's a foreign body, but it is incorporated into the crystal structure. And it's really a good extractor. It sucks up cesium to a very low concentration level. Well, then they can filter that out, and the cesium, as I said before, doesn't go to the big, million-gallon tanks. And that was good. We liked to keep track of our radioisotopes. Now these waste tanks, million-gallon waste tanks, everything goes in there. It's a dog's breakfast of processed chemicals and some things that shouldn't be in there. Now, as a kid, I knew about black gunpowder—potassium nitrate and sulfur and charcoal. And I knew how it would explode. Well, our tanks are chock-full of nitrates, which give off oxygen for the burning of sulfur and charcoal. It's an explosive, and a good one. Well, there you've got this oxidizing agent in huge quantities. And you've got nickel ferrocyanide intimately mixed with this oxidizer. And the cyanide radical is a carbon and a nitrogen. And carbon gives off a lot of energy when it's oxidized with CO2 or CO. So people would naturally wonder what might happen. And people study it, and people write papers on it, and senators say, oh my god, you find out what's going to happen! So they had a $25 million program to find out what happens in this mixture of oxidizer and ferrocyanide. And they assigned it to me. I had published in the area of cesium extractants and knew something about the chemistry. [LAUGHTER] And before I got very far into it, I tried to find out what was known about it. And there are guys here they call the graybeards. It was a senior process chemist. And they had thought it over and decided it's safe if it's wet. So that was in the back of my mind. And you may know about the—what is that? Committee? Nuclear facility safety committee, I think. Really smart guys, cream of the crop that really know their sciences. And they were set to looking at the government's nuclear facilities, because there were a lot of noise--horrible things are going to happen or have happened and the government's covered it over, that sort of thing. Well, that became one of their concerns. So, I've worked in civil service all of my life. I say I've never had an honest job. When problems come up and our government says that there's a problem, and we got to fix it, then a bunch of people are gotten together as part of a bureaucracy, and they take care of it. A lot of times, after that problem's gone, they still take care of things. But a very capable--Westinghouse at this time--man, and I can't remember his last name, Jim. He's a PhD physicist. He wrote up a program to thoroughly study this issue. And it was just talk what this National Committee wanted--that kind of approach. So we did five years of really good chemistry. And at the end, well, we proved that if it's kept wet, it's safe. But more importantly, we learned that the cyanide is decomposed. It's a rather energetic substance and readily reacts with other things. So it's not a cyanide anymore. And it's soluble in water, it's in the salt cake. Well that was a fun time. And I quickly learned that, okay, what is needed to satisfy the committee is to do good science. And by doing that, we may very well find a solution. And then the contractor and I had to close these issues. I think there were four or five reports we had to write to convince people that we have conscientiously studied and assessed the hazard and then state what remnant hazard there is, and get their buy off, and then I could go do something else. So there's a lot of management or bureaucratic processes that bedevil the technical manager nowadays. Bauman: Mm-hm. During that time when you were working at the tanks, were there any problems with leaking or any of that sort of thing at that point? Hendrickson: Oh, that and another things. [LONG PAUSE] I'm kind of uncomfortable talking about some of that, because there are people screaming the sky is falling! And there are some real problems, all right. [LAUGHTER] But throwing them into public conferences is kind of difficult. But it'll be handled with bureaucratic methods. And I--[LAUGHTER] when people say all things are terrible at Hanford, I say not to worry, there are plenty of hardworking taxpayers. And I'm afraid that they take it in the neck many times. But then, what is done out here in the cleanup is just amazing. I have always been concerned about radiation on health. And, of course, the bureaucratic approach, which worked very well--the health physics people here—Parker, an amazing man. What was done in radiation protection here at Hanford was first class, and, I think, very conscientious. I've heard about the very earliest limits of radiation exposure. At the time we started fissioning here, started the reactors operating, most of the data came from radiation therapy given to people, usually for cancer, but other problems as well. And the radium dial painters--do you know what that is? Bauman: Mm-hm, yeah. Hendrickson: People would get watches and clocks with radium mixed with the phosphorus, so it would glow. It glows all time, but you can see it in the dark. And they would be painted in, and the ladies that did that had little artist paint brushes. And they'd dip it in. And if they had to make a fine line, they would put it in their lips and rotate it. And died horribly from--radium's chemistry is like calcium, it goes to the bone. And it's a bad way to go. But they started out from that level. And I think they were very rational and very conservative. Since '44, we've learned a great deal, and we've lowered the limits. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you spent a period of time working at FFTF. Hendrickson: Yes. Bauman: I was wondering if you would talk about that a little bit at all? What sort of work you did there, and your experiences in that work? Hendrickson: Bear in mind that in World War II, there were a number of things that were very useful and high technology. And America developed them and used them, and they contributed significantly to the successful outcome from our viewpoint, anyway, of the Second World War. And, of course, radar is one, sonar. I lost my train of thought. [LAUGHTER] Just a minute. Of course, I think the power levels of our early, primitive, first-built production reactors was up in several thousand megawatts of heat released. They were pretty big reactors. And people in the know said, that's a lot of power. Can we use it to power submarines that would not have to come up except for food and water, and could be submerged for a month? Well, smart guys in the Navy and the Atomic Energy Commission made it happen. And very soon, they had prototype power reactors online making electricity, putting it into the grid. And according to the cost estimates of the time, it would be very economical to produce power that way. And a lot of utilities got into that. And big companies like Westinghouse and Combustion Engineering, Babcock and Wilcox, and GE made power reactors and sold them, and they were run in this country and largely were very successful. And so people say well, let's look at the slope of this line. And by, I think it was the year 2000, we're going to have 1,000 big power reactors operating. And that's going to eat up the world's known supply of uranium. What will we do then? And, of course, a physicist said well, you can breed plutonium, and it makes a fine fuel for power reactors. And they proved that. And FFTF was a big part of the technology developed. And because of this projection, they made decisions in the late '60s—projections of 1,000 power reactors being used in America in the year 2000. In the late '60s, the Atomic Energy Commission committed itself to developing breeder reactors and started a really smart program to get the kind of knowledge necessary to use that kind of a reactor system. And for generations, the electric power generation in America had been increasing 7% a year. And people that we never give a thought to had seen to having that power available for us. And they put reactors in. They thought reactors were good, and safe, and economical. Well, the FFTF was kind of the last of the great efforts along this line. And they were going to build a demonstration plant at—not Chalk River. That's Canada. Do you recall that—? Bauman: No. Hendrickson: Well, they were going to build a prototype. It means a big, nearly full sized reactor. And the lead time on some of the stuff, sometimes the lead time is three or four years just to get billets to run through the rolling mills of a special alloy needed. So there was a lot of planning going on and ordering components. And the Arabs don't like our politics in the Middle East. And cut off delivery of oil, the price went way up. I'd heard that the cost of oil at a seaport in Saudi Arabia cost $0.25 a barrel, because it's so easy to drill, and it's easy to get out. And you can plan ahead on things like that. But our growth rate just, phew, and growth rate of electrical demand went down. And I don't know where it stands now, but the whole world went through [LAUGHTER] a technological crisis when that happened. And we had kind of a recession in this country. And a lot of the industry did not build in anticipation of growth. And they stopped building reactors. They finished the ones that were being built. And this projection of meeting 1,000 reactors in 2000 was way off. I think we've had around 200 power reactors. I'm not sure, something like that. But we kept this program going in spite of economic changes and projected electrical demand changes. Though what we did here was wonderful science. The Japanese just shook their heads when we decided to shut down FFTF. In their country, they don't do things like that. They should have run FFTF until the wheels fell off, because we'll need that data some time. And the materials development that took place at FFTF is just amazing. I have thought of NASA as doing wonderful things with science, and big projects that cost billions. But I think what was done here in fuel and materials developments is of that quality and that nature and being a very big effort. Bauman: Let me ask you, during your working at Hanford—the different times you worked here—what you see as your biggest rewards working here and maybe your biggest challenges. Hendrickson: Well, [LAUGHTER] certainly from my standpoint, a wild technologist, I appreciated that technical experience they were great things done here. And it's easier, just off the top of the head, it's easier for me to say the benefits I got. And I got to go to work in very large, very focused management systems. And I saw quite a bit of development of the individual engineers. The contractors were good at that, at least when we had long-term missions. Well, of course, in the early days when plutonium was the product, I didn't have any qualms about that. I kind of trusted of the government to be halfway humane if it were used in war. But at some point, I realized the system was crazy. The CIA in 1972 said that--I think it was '72, in a newspaper clipping I read--that we had more bombs at that time than we would ever use in a war. And we just kept producing until the environmentalists used the environmental regulations to shut down the production facilities. The CIA was dead right about having all we needed. And bureaucracies, once they get started, are self-fulfilling. Bauman: You just mentioned the shift from production to clean up. Obviously, the mission changed. And you were here during both phases, I guess. I wonder, can you talk about how that shift impacted your work at all, or changes you saw as a result of that sort of change in mission? Hendrickson: Well, the turnaround of the mission occurred before I got here in '80. It was thought--when I got here, we were deep into clean-up. When I worked as a summer prof in '71, I talked to the old timers. And they told me this one tank level goes up and goes down--up and down on a rather regular basis. And they didn't know why. I had no idea why. And now we know very well. I think we spend around $100 million getting that knowledge. And it was touted as a great incipient disaster. We're going blow those tanks up and blow that waste all over. So it was known, and it wasn't worried about at one point. People do get complacent, I guess. But then again they sited these facilities out in this unpopulated desert. Some people from the east--when they came out here--they come to the airport and get in town, and then they have to drive 55 miles out to the facility. Most of the world doesn't think that way. So we built in great depth of protection in simply where we sited it. One thing that they did--they released huge quantities, industrial quantities of carbon tetrachloride that was used in extraction and cleanup of plutonium. And they released it to the ground. I think there were thousands of gallons. And that's not smart to do that sort of thing. We released radioactive streams to the ground that were very, very, very low in radioactivity. And I don't worry about that sort of thing. It's not going to lead to any harm—in Wally's opinion. But some things [LAUGHTER] that they found out there are really amazing. These old timers that worked around the tank farm said they would throw radioactive tools, dirty, contaminated tools down in the tanks, and they would throw radioactive machines that they didn't want any more down in the tanks. This is just hearsay. [LAUGHTER] And the tanks whose level would rise and low were studied. I think it was around $100 million. They found out that there were radiolytic gases given off, and gases given off by chemical reactions. Even after decades in the tank, still going on. Well some of the gas attaches itself to particles so it doesn't bubble to the top. And that heavy sediment at the bottom gets lighter, and lighter, and lighter, and then it rises up and goes to the surface. And the gas bubbles expand, and they break. And you've got explosive gases in the tank. Well, guys told me that some of the fellas would like a match and drop it down the tanks, and light a piece of paper and let it float down into the tanks and go, woof! That's not firsthand information. [LAUGHTER] But people sure can get worked up about things. Bauman: Security and secrecy are sort of always connected with Hanford. I wonder if you could talk about that all in terms of maybe the first time you were here in the 1950s--did you have a special clearance at all, and did security, secrecy change at all from the time you were here in the '50s--you were here later in the '80s? Hendrickson: That's a subject I have strong feelings about. I think they did a very good job. And I trust their judgment that it was necessary. Yeah, it was part and parcel of living in Richland. I was told at one time, you had to have a security clearance to live in the town of Richland. And I think there a lot of the old timers here. I believe Richland has a very low crime rate, a carryover from those times, I think. People that they wouldn't give a security clearance to lived someplace else. They didn't come here. Of course, I was young, and what's the word? Impressionable. And I saw all of the guards and had a badge and would flash it. It got so when I'd go to a grocery store, I'd take my badge out. [LAUGHTER] Nuclear weapons kill people by the hundreds of thousands, or millions for the big hydrogen bombs. And we wouldn't want the technology, or bomb material, or the bomb itself in the hands of people that we don't want to have it. And when you think of the consequences of failure in the security area, you realize why they are so thorough. Now the rules are thought out carefully by experienced people. And the rules are pretty well written out. And people are able to follow those rules. So I think we owe a lot to the safeguards and security programs that have been part of this world. Bauman: I wonder if you could talk about, overall, your thoughts on Hanford as a place to work. Hendrickson: I was surprised when I came as an undergraduate at how happy the people were with the Tri-cities. They liked it. I'd come from mountainous timber land. [LAUGHTER] Being out here in this sandbox was something different. I think people like it here. As a technical guy, I was glad I was in this environment. I think the Richland Police Department is a couple notches above the average. I think that's a carry-over from the effort made in this area by the Manhattan Project. One bad thing about Hanford is that it would have economic ups and downs, really severe ones. And a number of times in my experience here, I've seen weeds growing in cracks in the sidewalks and closed businesses. It looks like we'll have a good economy here, this handling the cleanup is going to take decades. And I think they even haven't planned too much for the very end. Bauman: Before we started recording, you were talking earlier--you mentioned something you had worked on during the Vietnam War. I know it's not directly related to Hanford, but I wondered if you might want to talk about that a little bit more. Hendrickson: Well, there was a connection with Hanford. After I left that post-doc at the Naval Ordnance Lab, I worked at Idaho Falls with the Atomic Energy Commission, within a group that looked after the fuel reprocessing plant. And we would call it the chemical plant. And after I'd been there about a year, a message came from headquarters that they wanted volunteers to go to Vietnam to take out the highly enriched uranium that fueled a TRIGA-type reactor at Da Lat in South Vietnam. And they wanted people with health physics and TRIGA-reactor experience. Now I'd worked on a TRIGA reactor for ten years, and kind of by that a lightweight health physicist. And my buddy was a GS-14 health physicist at Idaho Falls. And he had been president of the western section of the—let’s see—the Health Physics Society. So he and I talked and said, yeah, we'll volunteer. And we were the only volunteers out of about 20,000 AEC people. When I worked at the radiation center in Pullman, I chummed around with a lot of the graduate students and post-docs. I really enjoyed that. And one of them developed into a friendship. He was a Vietnamese physicist trained at the University of Saigon. And some of their degrees are taken as the same level as the Sorbonne degrees in France at that time. And he worked on a nuclear engineering master's program. And he was earmarked to return to work at the reactor that was being built. It was quite a complex--they even had their independent power--diesel electric generator. Well, he wanted to stay for a doctorate in radiochemistry and started on that, but his country demanded he come back. And he worked at the reactor. And he and I corresponded. And he told me about meeting a small pharmacienne—I guess that's the technical—the feminine form of pharmacist in French. And I'd hear about his courtship and had a baby. And then he didn't answer my letters. And when I was in the DC area at the Naval Ordnance Lab, I called the Vietnam embassy, and the man I got had been my friend's boss at the reactor. And Ti was dead—La Banh Ti. And I'd learned about his experience- - he, and his wife, and his little girl Christine had gone up to Hue, where Ti's father lived for the Chinese New Year. That's a real big thing in Asia. Well, of course, that was in the time of the Tet Offensive. And Hue was overrun, including the citadel. And the American and Vietnamese forces eventually pushed them back. Ti had been seen by some of the Viet Cong, and one fellow knew him and fingered him. And he was taken as prisoner to a park and kept there. And after the Viet Cong realized they'd better retreat, the prisoners were taken out to the edge of the city and put in a ditch and shot, which isn't as bad as it might be, because sometimes they would douse them with gasoline and light it. Well I knew about the reactor in Da Lat from my association with Ti. And we--John Horan and I--John died probably 20 years ago--he was an airman in the Second World War. We said, yeah, we'll go. And that was sent back to Washington. That was Friday. And I went with a scout group up in the hills outside of Idaho Falls. And I'd made two toboggan-like things out of old skis with the seat on it, and the boys played with that. I went hiking, and I came across a pregnant doe. And I followed the tracks. I heard the noise, and I realized eventually that it was a pregnant doe, so I broke off. But I was doing that on the weekend. And Monday I took flight for Vietnam. And I didn't have a passport. So we made arrangements for special treatment with a passport office in San Francisco. [LAUGHTER] It was a hassle. The guy that was supposed to take care of that detail had gone to a dentist and not told anyone. When Horan got back, he wrote a bad letter to that guy's boss. But we got it. We finally got it--we got a visa from the Vietnamese and flew over--that's a long flight. And we were met at the airport by the first secretary--political military. He was a career department of state man. I think he's still alive. He's in his mid-90s. Just a first class person. Well the first thing he did when he recognized us was remind us that we were volunteers. It went downhill from there. We were to go up in a small plane just to reconnoiter, see what conditions were at the reactor. And, let's see--that must have been a four-seater. There were four of us that went up. Jay Blowers was his name. What was it--Air America, run by the CIA. And I couldn't see the compass--I sat in the back. But I could tell the direction by the sun. Instead of flying from Saigon north-northeast to Da Lat, we went directly east out over the South China Sea, and then north-northeast, and then directly west. And when I'd figured that out, I said why? And they said, well, the Viet Cong has very respectable anti-aircraft capability between those two cities. And I thought, okay. But when we got there--I think it's at 5,000 plus feet, and it's a wonderful place after you've been down at sea level in the tropics. And the French used it—developed it as a vacation area. And there was a college there, and a school for noncommissioned officers. And I saw all kinds of agriculture—oh, yeah, there was an agricultural school of some kind. Well, we came to an area that was nothing but clouds. And there were mountain peaks around. And we went round, and round, and round, trying to find a hole. And we were just about to the point where we would have to leave because we only had enough gas to make it back to Saigon. And the pilot saw a hole, and he went shoo! like that and leveled. And we were going straight towards a mountain. He went shoo! like that. And there was a landing field and plopped down on the field. It was so fast, I didn't get to react. I wasn't used to that kind of flying. Well we found the reactor in very good condition. And they had a fork truck which wasn't in good condition, and we needed a fork truck to lift shipping containers. The ones we got were brought by air from Bethesda Naval Hospital in DC. And they were 55 gallon drums. And they had a pipe--an ordinary plumber's type pipe. It was kind of big, though. Must've been six inches. And there were some lead around it. And then concrete around that. And they were pretty heavy. So we needed heavy handling equipment. And they had a bridge crane. Now, a lot of research reactors are built like this one, which is that in a round building, straight walls, and then a dome. And there's a ridge up at the top that a crane—polar crane, I think they call them—goes like this. And they had some problem with it, but they said it would work. And the water was in excellent condition, though they had shut it down since '68. The head of the reactor, the manager became a close friend, and he has died. You know this was in '75, March of '75. This is interesting; Wally did something smart--two things smart. When we were in Saigon, we quickly went over to the Vietnamese atomic energy office and said we're from the government, and we're here to help you. And we’d gotten sign off by the political type that was over such things as research. And we said we want your help, we want to go up and see what's there, and what we need to get the fuel out. And how hot is the fuel, stuff like that. Of course, they didn't know, because they hadn't fooled with it for seven years. And they had shut it down. I thought whenever, in the nuclear field, they do something like that, they write a safety report. So I asked, do you have a safety report? May I see it? And in the report, typically they do the thought experiment of, well what happens if the fission products are dispersed in the air, the whole bunch. And so I saw that they had figured out the amount of cesium and strontium. Those are the long half-lived elements. They wouldn't have gone down a little bit in seven years. They had that all worked out. And I said, well, from that amount of so many curies, at this distance, you'd get this dose rate. But we'll only take out one fuel element time--piece of cake. It's no problem. But anyway, we took out a fuel element, because we wanted to survey it. And Horan had bought our emergency response box. We had dosimeters and radiation instruments--some of them we got from Berkeley. I don't know how that was arranged. And we would take the fuel out with a long hose that had a gripper at the end. The TRIGA had a little post sticking up that was sort of arrow shaped, and a neck. And metal--a mechanical thing on this garden hose went on that post and clamped onto the neck. And we'd pull it to the surface. And that particular hose system had a history of dropping the fuel elements. So we immediately grabbed the fuel element in the bare hand and disconnected it. And a guy over there, about eight feet, would read it with a G-M tube. That's what this case was. Well the guy with serving instrument was down on the steps a ways. And he walked up, which also brings him closer. And we could hear the count rate--zeeeeee. And it stops. And people experienced with high sources and G-M tubes know [LAUGHTER] that it's saturated, and it's really hot, and you better get away. And Horan says oh, we got a divide by ten thing. We'll put that on it. Well, the thing that goes bad in counting the radioactivity is in the Geiger tube itself. So the divide by ten was useless. And we got--I said, well, let's just stand back farther. [LAUGHTER] And we got a good reading, a valid reading. That tickled me, that the Idaho health physicist hadn't picked up on the instrumentation they had for emergencies. Well let's see, I guess this might have been the second trip up there. But anyway, there was a little fence around the grounds and a guard's house at the entrance, and a lean-to made of bamboo on the side. And a family was living under that lean-to. And they had several children--one was really small. And I talked to them, and they didn't know English, but I talked to them anyway. And the little girl had--I don't know if they call it harelip, but anyway her two front teeth were growing on jawbone that was in front of her lip. And wars are expensive, and a lot of things are neglected because of that. I really hate to see war anyplace. Problems like that can be dealt with so easily. But I had some time, and I offered to give the children a tour through the reactor. I guess the guard spoke enough English. So I took them, and pointed to the crane and pointed to this great—oh dear, the reactor was in a silo-like concrete shield with water. And then we climbed a step up to the top. But anyway, I pointed to different things, and then I took them into the chem labs, and there was a model of the reactor. And I said--oh, see that reactor out here? Here's a model. And the oldest girl, you could just see her face light up. She understood, and she explained to the kids what it was. Well, then we went back to Saigon. And communicated with headquarters—Atomic Energy Commission headquarters. I found out that this was handled at a very high level. The White House decided who was going to pay for the recovery, and an Air Force general was given responsibility for transportation. And an AEC fellow course handled the AEC part. And I've met him. Bauman: And the connection to Hanford was-- Hendrickson: Well. Oh! Oh yeah--do you have time? I can tell more about actually moving the fuel. Bauman: Just a little more, yeah. Hendrickson: Well, we got the fuel out. The C-130 was overloaded, and we didn't know it. And the airport runway was on top of a hill, and we had to fight off people that wanted to take refuge in our plane and be taken out to the south. And the plane was backed up. And the engine revved up as high as it'll go with the brakes on, and then the brakes are released. And it starts out about like a baby buggy, just rumbling along and the engines are straining. And it did pick up speed, but at this time I could see out the pilot's window, and we didn't so much take off as we ran out of runway and there were farmhouses outside the wings. And we got back. And then these heavy casks were loaded on a different kind of airplane--C-141, and taken to Johnson Island, and then to the States. And some of the elements came here to Hanford and were used in the FFTF complex for experimental work. And I met the director of that reactor. He is a good man. Bauman: Now, that's quite a story. Are there any—beginning to wrap up here--anything I haven't asked you about or anything you think is important to talk that we haven't talked about yet? Hendrickson: Anything else I think might be important? Bauman: Yeah, that I haven't asked you about or that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to say sort of briefly here at the end? Hendrickson: Oh, there are a number of things--I probably could think a little bit. Maybe I'll make some notes and contact you. Bauman: And we could always schedule another, Hendrickson: If it seems worthy, I'll contact you. Bauman: Okay. I want to thank you a lot for coming in today. I really appreciate you sharing your memories and your experiences. Hendrickson: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: All right. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:32:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955-1957; 1980-2000 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1957; 1980-2000 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. La Banh Ti Horan, John Blowers, Jay Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Hendrickson Description An account of the resource An interview with Wally Hendrickson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear instruments & methods Nuclear waste disposal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-7-30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-8: Metadata v1 created – [RG] CIA General Electric Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F82c04966c9ad4d75be52520235b0f436.jpg 0cfd3eabf5f6f11bc4ae97cf18f78000 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5ac81b95ffc5c268e001b40efe232954.mp4 912843de88d1ba96be6a1ee7dfb001cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Gladden Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Northwest Public Television | Gladden_Elizabeth </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Elizabeth Gladden. Capital E-L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H. Gladden. G-L-A-D-D-E-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Great. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: The first year I was there, I was a Feemster. I was unmarried. And then we got married this second year. So my maiden name was Feemster. So the Social Security people told me to keep the F. Originally my middle initial was an E. But to keep the F of the maiden name to keep their records straight. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Sure. Right. And how did you spell your maiden name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: F-E-E-M-S-T-E-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Okay. Great. Thank you. All right. And my name is Robert Bauman. And we're conducting this oral history interview on July 7, 2014, on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I guess let's start with maybe how you found out about—what were you doing before the war, maybe? And how you found out about an opportunity to teach at Heart Mountain. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Okay. As I said, Pearl Harbor is the one that started it all. And from there, the Army thought that the Japanese on the west coast would be a danger. And they wanted them moved. And we found out later that that wasn't true, that they really weren't a danger, that California just wanted the Japanese out, and this was a good opportunity to get them out. And I was teaching in Nebraska when Pearl Harbor came along. And then I finished that year, and the next year I moved to a town called Osceola in Nebraska, which was a little better opportunity. And I taught one week when I got a call from the Davis teachers' agency, telling me that they had a good job for me in Wyoming. And it sounded very good because I was getting $1,000 there, and out in Wyoming, I would be getting $2,000. So I just doubled the pay for a couple months' more work. My father thought I was going to the end of the world. But I resigned then at Osceola. I don't think the school board was very happy with me. And I packed up and came out to Heart Mountain. And it was, I think, the second week in September when I got out there. Some of the teachers had gotten there already. The principal and school superintendent had been on the job for several months. And they had tried to get everything organized so that we could be an accredited high school. And then we started school I think the first week in October. Several weeks I was there beforehand, we sorted books and got assigned to our classrooms and got things set out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Do you remember what your first impressions were when you arrived in Heart Mountain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: What? What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Your first impressions of the place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden. Oh. [LAUGHTER] I remember writing the folks and saying that it was all right if you looked up. The sky was pretty and blue, but not if you looked around. No, it was very, very bleak. It was hot. And all you saw were these black tar paper barracks. And you just saw the trainloads of evacuees coming in, and you felt sorry for them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: What sort of housing did you have there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, the first year we lived in Cody, Wyoming. There was no gas, so people weren't traveling. So we lived in a—what do you call it? It was a motel. A little motel. And a lot of the faculty lived there. There wasn't enough room at Heart Mountain yet. They had built dorms out there, and some of the single people were out there in dorms. But there were no apartments for the married people at all. And then in the next year, we had a fairly nice apartment, except ours also was not dust-proof. We had lots and lots of dust. But we did have electricity and water and a refrigerator. And all the evacuees had when they arrived was a big room. The rooms varied in size, depending on the size of the family. Some of the rooms were 20 feet long, and some were much smaller. Families varied from six on down to single. They had one lightbulb hanging down from the ceiling, no running water. The latrines and the showers were all outside. There was one for each block. And there were 20 blocks. So it was pretty cold. They said some of the mothers didn't get anything done but bundling up their children and taking them out to the bathroom and back in again. It was pretty, pretty sad. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And for the single people, were there separate dorms for the single people? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, the evacuees were in the same ones, but they had a smaller apartment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Oh, okay, I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: They say the women went to work immediately, getting sheets and so forth, dividing up the space so they'd have a little privacy. And I guess the latrines at first were just wide open. There was no privacy in them at all. But the Japanese were quite ingenious. They began to do things. They said Montgomery Ward and Sears Roebuck got a lot of money from tools that the internees had ordered. Some of them were trying to patch up the leaky holes in the barracks and so forth. They had one pot-bellied stove in each room. They didn't do adequate heating jobs, of course. Of course, that's what we had too, up on the hill. We had a pot-bellied stove. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so what did you teach then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: I taught English, and I also had a math class. I taught freshman and sophomore English and Algebra. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And about how many students did you have in a class? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, several of the classes were quite small. But they never got over 25 or so. They were pretty good. And I would say that the discipline was heaven. We had none of the discipline problems that I had when I got back to Pasco. [LAUGHTER] I think they were all kind of beaten down at that point. They seemed cheerful, but I don't know. They must have thought they couldn't get by with anything, because they very good. And of course the original schools were in the barracks. And there were no desks. They had the long benches that the kids sat in, and they had to do their writing on their lap. And I had an assistant to help me grade papers, which was nice, because I'd never had that before. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So the whole time you were there, there were no desks? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, just in the barracks. In '43, then, the high school was built. And it was heaven compared to what we had. It went up within a year. But it had a big administrative building--section in the middle. And then it had two big wings on it. And they had a Home Ec department in one section. They had a shop. They had a science department. They had a big gymnasium and auditorium combined. And we had enough textbooks finally. So it was very, very much improved over the first year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: What about eating facilities? Were there cafeterias, mess halls? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, the kids always ate in the mess hall. You see, each block had its own mess hall where they would go, along with their bath facilities. And they would go to the mess hall to eat. I might say that at first there was a little unrest. They claimed they weren't getting the proper food and so forth. But they kind of worked with the administration. And later they didn't seem to complain so much about the food. Then we had a separate cafeteria up on the hill where we ate at noon. And we complained, because the meat was always lamb. I was so tired of lamb when we got through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: I guess that's what was available in Wyoming. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Right. Yeah. Well, another thing that's of interest when we're talking about food is that they had their own chicken ranch down at the bottom they put in. And they also had a bunch of pigs down there. And the second year, the late summer, 1945, they took over the land across the street--across the highway—and they put in a huge garden. And they had every kind of vegetable imaginable down there. And the people around Cody said that it wouldn't grow. It wouldn't grow there at all. But we had an abundance of fresh things then. And it was in the fall of 1945—1944, rather—when it got really cold, and they were afraid the potatoes were all going to freeze. So they dismissed school. And they plowed up all the potatoes. And the kids went out and picked up potatoes. The faculty, too. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So about how many internees were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: We had 10,000 in the camp. And there were times when we had about 10,700. There were 120,000 Japanese that were evacuated. If you had a sixth of a Japanese blood in you, you were evacuated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And obviously all the internees were from the west coast. Were they mostly from California? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: All along the coast. They were sent from Washington, along the coast. It went down that were also taken. There is this movie—maybe you've seen it--that is very, very good, number of years ago. And I can't remember the name of it. It's based on a family that was evacuated from over on the coast. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so there were some residents there from the Tri-Cities area, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, yes. My understanding is that the Columbia River was the dividing line. Everybody west of the Columbia River went. But some people east—and I know there were a couple families in Pasco went, because they were afraid. Sentiment against the Japanese was very, very bad, and they were afraid to stay. And they came back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Now did you know these people at all when you were there? Or were these people that you heard about later? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, once the war was over, it was over, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So for students who were in the high school when they first came to Heart Mountain, but finished high school during the war, were they able go to college somewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, while they were in camp those three years, if they had the resources and they found a school that would accept them, college students could go out, as long as they went east. And we had a number who went out. And also there were a few of the laborers who went out to get better jobs that were allowed to go. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So you went there in the fall of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: In the fall of '42, and left in the late summer of '45. Was there five years--or three years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Overall, how would you describe your experience teaching there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, I would say it's very good. We had a nice social background with other Caucasians. And we knew a few of the Japanese. But somehow we didn't get very—there wasn't an opportunity, really, to get very close to them. I might say that the administration did a great job in trying to get things organized, along with the help of the outstanding leaders in the Japanese community. And they had Boy Scout groups and Camp Fire Girls and Girl Scout groups. And they had dance clubs and everything that would keep the kids busy. And when it got really hot, they dug a great big swimming pool. And the kids went swimming. And then in the winter, they skated there. Some of them had never seen an ice skate before. And they had great fun ice skating. They couldn't get out on the hills, though, to go sledding. They had to stay in camp. Oh, I might say there were about 19, I think, guard stations around the camp. And they were up high, with very powerful searchlights. And nobody could get out without being caught. And as we went in and out the gate, we had to have badges on. And the Army was stationed down at the base. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: You mentioned, when I talking to you earlier, that you had teaching assistants or assistants that helped you, grading? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yes, I had two students. They were kids who were already through high school. And they would help grade English papers and math papers. Sakiko Yoshimura and Metsu--Metsuku--Mets--suku—what's her name now? I've forgotten. I saw it in the book. Yeah. Yeah. And we kept track of--one of them went back to Japan the minute the camp closed down. And the other one was a seamstress. And she went to California. And when my daughter and I were traveling one day, we stopped to see her. But we lost track of her later. We don't know what happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Did you ever get a sense, or any of the internees ever say anything? They expressed any sort of disappointment or anger or anything about being in the camp? Or did they not really talk about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: No, we were told when we went that you'll never get a job in a private school again. If you go teach those Japs. You're through. And they were crying for teachers when we got out. There's no problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So once the camp closed, then, what happened to you? What did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, when the camp closed--well, school was over in 1945 in the last of May. And all teachers were through. But if you wanted to stay on, and they needed you in some other department, you could go. And I was always interested in hospital work. In fact, that's what I thought I wanted to be when I was growing up, was a nurse. So I went to the hospital. And my husband went to the housing area where they were boxing up the household goods that the Japanese acquired and put them on the train. Incidentally, each one was given $25 a ticket to where they wanted to go, and that was it. But I had a lot of experiences in the high school—in the hospital. And I was so grateful for the opportunity. Being a Caucasian, I got to do things--administer medicine and do things—that otherwise the Japanese didn't get to do. And I remember so well. One of the doctors came in and grabbed me one day. And he said, come here, I need you quickly. Lady's going to have a baby. So I was there and he put out his gloves for me to hold to put them on. I was only woman in the room besides the doctor. And I got to see a baby born. And that was before I had any children. And it was really, really interesting. And another experience, there was a time, there was one of the fellows dying, an older man. And she got me and said, I think you need to see this. So she took me in, and we watched his last breaths. And when he was gone, she says, now we have to take out his false teeth and take him to the morgue. They had a morgue in the hospital. So she says, I want you to go down with me. And so I did. And shoved him in the freezer there. Then we came back to the room to clean it up. And she says, oh, I forgot to put his false teeth in. But she says, you don't have to go with me this time. I'll go down and do it. She was a graduate nurse, of course. And the salary scale, I don't think we've talked about, was very interesting. There were three scales. I was making over $200 a month. And the highest any Japanese internee could get was $19 a month. And some of the nurses got a little upset at one time. But they wouldn't do anything about it. They had set the scale for $19 for professional. And then I think it was $16 for in between. And the laborers got only $12 an hour. They said they couldn't pay the laborers more than the Army--an Army private got. And that was $20 a day, not an hour. $20 a day. So they didn't make much money. That was one reason they liked the work outside, if they could. Get a job on the outside. Because the administration demanded that they be paid the same way as a Caucasian on the outside. The governor of Wyoming wasn't very helpful. He wanted them to be slave laborers, practically, and work for $12 an hour. And the WRA--that's the War Relocation Authority--said no. You have to pay them same as you pay Caucasians. So some of them got some extra money that way, if they could be cleared. I mentioned to you the newspaper. We had a fellow who was trained in journalism. And he immediately started a newspaper. It started within a week I think from the time he got there. He got his staff together. It was an eight page newsletter--or newspaper, rather--that came out once every Saturday. And that kind of kept the evacuees in touch with what's going on in the outside world, as long as rules and so forth in the camp. And he had some pretty good editorials, where he was questioning things. And I do have some copies of those that I'll give you, if you want them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Now did those newspapers have to go through-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: I don't know how much censoring they did. I wouldn't be surprised, but what they had some though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Were there radios allowed in the camp to listen to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Get updates on was happening in the world? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: There were always rumors, always rumors. [LAUGHTER] We had a fellow up in the dorm area that got the greatest delight out of starting a rumor and seeing how long it took to get around. Oh, there were rumors about how there were Japanese on the coast, and they were going to invade. There was balloons that were going to be coming over, and so forth and so on. But nothing ever happened. There was never any incident at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Do you have any idea how large the staff was that worked at the camp? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, dear. I think there were 200 in the administrative area. And teachers--I don't know for a school that size—it was a big high school. We had the eighth grade in the high school, too. So it was a pretty big school. And our classes weren't big. I remember one summer, I taught solid geometry, and I only had about eight students in there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And was there a graduation ceremony? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes, yes. When they graduated, there was a big ceremony. We had a big auditorium, as I said, which was also a gym. And it was well used here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Was there a church or churches in the camp? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes. The WRA started out with two churches, a Catholic and a Protestant. And the Buddhists wanted their church. And two-thirds of the group were Buddhists. And the WRA refused, but eventually gave in. So eventually there was a Buddhist church, and the Catholic and the Protestant. We went to the Protestant church and got very well acquainted with the minister and his wife and had them over for dinner. Nice couple. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Do you remember when you heard about the war ending? Or any of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes. We were eating lunch in--oh, no, no. When we were eating lunch, it was when Roosevelt was pronounced dead. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: And my husband was down in the lab, because he was always fooling with radios. He was building his own radio. And he came rushing up and said that Roosevelt had died. And this was during the lunch hour. I forget the date. But the war--well, it's an interesting story about how we heard about the war. We were married in '43. My sister was married in '45. And her husband was working at the University of Chicago. And the department--what do they call it? The one where they were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: The Manhattan Project, or-? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah. Well, it's part of the Manhattan Project. And he knew what we were doing out at Hanford, but we didn't know what was going on out here. And so the fellas were in the living room--I remember--and we were out in the breakfast nook at York, Nebraska, at my parents' home. And Stanley--my brother-in-law--came running out to the kitchen and grabbed my sister by the arm and said, come in and listen to this. He said, I want you to hear it. And you tell me what you heard. And she did. And then he said, well, that's what I've been doing. So that was how we know the war had ended. They'd dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. They always said Hiroshima, not "Hiro-SHEE-ma." </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So now did you and your husband meet at Heart Mountain? Or, how did you meet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: I met my husband at the University of Chicago. I was there one summer. And we got acquainted. And we corresponded. And he'd come to Nebraska and so forth. Then he ran out of money. He was working on his Ph.D. So he took a job at Whitehall, Montana. And he was there the year that I was at Heart Mountain, the first year. And then he wanted to come down. And of course they gave him a job. And we were married then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so after the war ended, how did you end up in Pasco then? How did that happen? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, that was when--we stayed in Heart Mountain until almost the end of the summer. And then my husband was interested in getting a teaching job in Washington. So he started applying for jobs along the Columbia River, any big town. And Pasco was the first one that answered his letter and said, we have a science job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: What were your first impressions of Pasco? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Terrible. [LAUGHTER] Terrible. It was the last day in August. Very, very hot. We were in what they call the Riverside homes, down the river. Big room. We must have had a refrigerator. I don't remember it. But the cupboards were open. No doors on the cupboards or anything. And of course there was no electricity. I mean, you couldn't buy any electric gadgets. You did your cooking on a range. And if you can imagine that, on the last day of August--then it was then that C.L. Booth, the superintendent, asked me if--or I said, do I have to stay here? And he asked me what I did. And I said, oh, I've been teaching school. And he said, come on up and we'll you a job. So then I taught a year. And then we quit to have our family. And then I went back later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so you already knew about Hanford before you came here, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah, we found out. The end of August, I guess, or in August, whenever that was, when my sister and her husband were there, because they'd just gotten married. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So what was Pasco like as a community in the 1940s, 1950s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, we stayed the first night at the new Pasco hotel on Lewis Street. And before we got our Riverside apartment. And it was pretty hot. I wasn't much impressed. My husband always wanted to go to Hawai’i. And he thought, well, we would be on our way to Hawai’i, then. He thought it would be nice to teach over there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: And so you stayed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: So we stayed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So that would be 70--almost 70 years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah, well, it was 70--I figured it was 72 years since I'd been at Heart Mountain. We came to Pasco in '45. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: '45? 69 years, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: About 20 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: ‘45 to now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So if there anything I haven't asked you about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well I think we’ve- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: --Heart Mountain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, there was one thing that--the Nisei were subject to draft. And they had to fill out a big form. And they had a couple questions on there that a few of them wouldn't sign. One of them, are willing to withdraw all allegiance to the Japanese emperor? And the other one, are you loyal to the United States? Would you be serving the Army? And there was a committee that formed. And some of them thought their constitutional rights had definitely been tramped on. And that they wouldn't sign, they said, until they were given their freedom back. But the 442nd contingent that you know about, that was so very, very famous, they were all made up of Japanese. And a lot of Japanese took part there. But because of the questionnaire and so forth, and some of them got a little belligerent, they were arrested. And there was one fellow who really wouldn't give in. And he was put in jail for three years I know of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: So you knew about that, about the questionnaire. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Uh-huh, yeah. That happened while we were there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Were there a number of young men from Heart Mountain who did end up going to the military, joining the Army? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Oh, yes, yes, a lot of them. Which I think was pretty wonderful. The way they've been treated, that they would actually go. But they were showing their loyalty to the US. They claimed they were still US citizens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Well, this has been very interesting for me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, it's fun to review it. I hadn't thought about it for so long. But it's interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: At some point, when you were here in Pasco, did you ever get to know any of the Japanese-Americans who lived here who had been in Heart Mountain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well, my husband had Jerry Minatoya I think, in class in Heart Mountain. And when he got here, he had him in class in high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: There were a number of Japanese families living in Pasco, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in and sharing your experiences and your photos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: Well it’s been—I'm sorry my voice is so cracky. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Bauman: No, it’s wonderful. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX227730302"> Gladden: You're welcome. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:00 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1945-2015 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Booth, C.L.; Minatoya, Jerry Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 226 Kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Gladden Description An account of the resource An interview with Elizabeth Gladden conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [J.G] Subject The topic of the resource Pasco(Wash,) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/7/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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Ice Skating Pasco (Wash.) swimming War Relocation Authority (United States) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F91bc830435e20ab2f167731f6753a29d.jpg 07c79fb937ae0c69b708d6ee69024c9f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F44d03d7ad701c05fcea08001a735079b.mp4 a1c266e40348c4f877dd5bfacbd661ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madeleine Gilles Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Northwest Public Television | Gilles_Madeleine </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Robert Bauman: My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Madeleine Gilles. And this is July 2nd of 2013. The interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Madeleine Gilles about her family's history, her years growing up in Richland. So let's start with that, if we could. If you could tell me about how and when, why your family came to Richland. Anything about when and why they came here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Madeleine Gilles: Well, they came from Montana--Butte. I was about a year and a half old I think. And I guess they wanted to change from a miner to a farmer. And he was from-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Croatia it looked like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Croatia, yes. And my mother was American. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What were your parents' names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What were your parents' names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Mr. Patricia and John Serdar. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: S-E-R-D-A-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And did you have any brothers or sisters? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I had two sisters which are a year and eight or nine months between the three of, you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Mm-hm, okay. And so when you came to Richland, did you have a farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I don't know how he came by a farm, but I know that he had 10 acres on a flat. And my mother's father, my grandfather, lived up on a little hill above us. It's now out at, behind that Richland airport. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Okay. That's where the land was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes. It's still fenced off. There's nothing on it. [LAUGHTER] And it was by the irrigation ditch where we lived on the hill part. And the irrigation ditch had that flume across the little bitty gully onto downtown Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And you used irrigation water on farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: From that. Yes. They had weirs that went out to the fields and filled up. And you could water from there. They built little wooden waterways to where they wanted it, and then they'd have rails. And they'd flood the rails and then move it on to the next part of the field until they got it watered. And the ditch riders came by and kept watch on wherever it come out from the irrigation ditch. I forgot what they called those. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What kind of crops did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: We had alfalfa and a big garden and strawberries and grapes and raspberries. So we were busy. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And did you have any animals on the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. We had about ten cows. And they pastured over where the golf course is now. Oh, I forget the name of it. It's a pony. [LAUTHER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Horse name. Anyway there's a golf course down there now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Where the pastures were? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Where the pastures were, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so, the alfalfa, was that a crop you grew and sold? Or was that used for your animals? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, it's to feed the animals in the winter. You cut it and stacked it and put it on a wagon and hauled it over and threw it up on a haystack. [LAUGHTER] One way or another, in the barns, they used to take the horses and somehow off of the hay wagon. They wrapped it up, and then the horses went ahead and drew it up into the loft. That way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so, what other buildings were on your property besides the house itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: The barn. And we had a cellar, a ground cellar, and it was covered with dirt and had to open up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What was stored in there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, canned fruit and things that--sauerkraut in the barrel and anything like that. And then we had where we kept the potatoes and the turnips and all that stuff in another building. And we had chickens. Of course, they harvested the turkeys in the fall. I don't know where they sold them, down to the butcher or somebody. And then we had the barn down the hill farther in front of the haystack, and that was--and there was a barnyard of course. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Growing up, did you have jobs that were yours on the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. Worked all day outside and in the sun. [LAUGHTER] Hoeing weeds and picking strawberries early in the morning. We worked for people who had lots of asparagus. We cut asparagus early in the morning. In the spring, you know? And my mother worked in the packing shed, and they packed the asparagus ready for market. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Was this someone else in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I don't know. I think they shipped it. They shipped it in wooden crates. Not too big because they'd get smashed. And the strawberries, the same way. We picked strawberries. We picked apples. We picked pears. We did those kind of things for other people, plus we picked our own fruit so our mother could can them. And we was busy. We had to bring the cows from the pasture home in the morning after cutting asparagus—about 3:00 in the morning, you get up, cut asparagus, bring the cows home and milk them and take them back. Get ready for school. It was busy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: That's a lot of work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, but it didn't hurt me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you have time to do fun things--swimming or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yeah. We went down the irrigation ditch down to where it kind of stops down at where there's land and it kind of opened up a little space where kids could come. And we'd go swimming and take a bath [LAUGHTER] with soap. Didn't do much good because you had to run back up the flume home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: But anyway it was--and well, at school, we did our sports, softball and basketball and went to different little towns for competition games. And see who'd go to Spokane. We went one year, but we lost by--for basketball--lost by one point. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah. I saw a picture of a basketball team-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, I was in it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: In the picture, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What position did you play on the basketball team? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What position did you play on the basketball team? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Guard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Do you remember any of the other young women who were on the team? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: John Dam’s daughter was. She was forward. And I forget her name, but Margaret somebody was center. And I don't remember them all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: You must've been a good athlete then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, I guess I was. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Well, there's also in that book, a note that you had won a race. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: A race. Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: At a picnic? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. At the end of the year, they'd have school competition between the grades and stuff. And that was for my running. Because we did a lot of running in soft sand. So when you go on hard surface, you could really go. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How did you get to school? Did you walk to school? A bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, no. A bus came, and we could see it when we lived on the little hill above the flat surface where we were at first. We could see it. Then we'd take off and run down to the corner and catch the bus. And then he'd pick up all the rest of the kids and go down to Richland. The school was behind John Day and Nelson's mercantile store there. There was a gas station there and a church where we had baccalaureate and all that stuff there from the grade school. And the high school was down the road from the grade school. Richland High. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Right. Do you remember any of your teachers from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, Carmichael and—oh, I don't remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Any idea how big, how many-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Kids? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Kids there were. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, I think there was about 500 people. So they must have had at least three or four kids. So multiply that. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: We had a lot of kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: I want go back. You mentioned your parents earlier. And your father was an immigrant from Croatia. Did he speak English? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Not very well. There was nobody for me to talk to but the animals. [LAUGHTER] Because my mother didn't converse with him. Because she didn't know his language. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And how had they met? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, at a dance in Montana--Butte. And he knew her father in the mines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: I see. And they got married and moved out-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. However, they were advertising at that time for homesteading in the '20s, you know. I was born in 1920. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: How they got there, I don't know. Because they never talked, and I didn't know what to ask them anyway. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Now, did you have electricity at all in your home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. Kerosene light, lamp, and lantern to go to the barn and milk in the winter and stuff like that. Had kerosene. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And did you have--how did you get from--did you have a car at any time, or was it horse and wagon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: First of all, it was a wagon with a bed in it. We rode it in the back, and they rode in the front of course. And took a long time to get there, [LAUGHTER] wherever we was going. They belonged to the grange. And we'd go there for their meetings and dances. And my mother played piano, and she played for the drill team and for the dances along with other musicians. And they used to have house parties in the wintertime. They'd clear the floor, and whoever could come to play--and if there was a piano there, my mother played. And they danced or they played cards or--that was their entertainment, so to speak. Go from house to house to play cards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Do you remember any other events? Were there 4th of July-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. We'd go to the park. What is that park called? Where the golf course is--on the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Howard Amon Park? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, no. It's a golf course on the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Columbia Park? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. They'd go along there, and people would come. And they'd make homemade ice cream, and they'd do their wieners or whatever—chicken, it usually was--a lot of fried chicken and pies and cakes, and they had a good time. And then, as I remembered, they used to shoot firecrackers off of the old green bridge and do their fireworks there. So everybody'd go down by the river there and watch them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: The fireworks there. There was a ferry that would take people across the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you do that very often? Take the ferry across the river? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, we didn't. But we did go down to the Columbia, down to the boom where they caught wood and trees and stuff and get our wood for the winter, or if you happened to be lucky, get a part of a tree or something. They'd saw it up and have some wood to build something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you interact with any Native Americans in the area very often? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. When the fishing season was on, they used to go up to the Yakima someplace where there was a little dam. But they put their tents out across the ditch from us, and they'd have little tents. And then they'd have a three-sided tent where they'd have their fires out there and cook their fish and dry it and stuff like that. We had to drive the cows by the trail, went right by their camping site. [LAUGHTER] And my mother used to say to my little sister, "Rosie, if you don't be good, I'm going to give you to the Indians.” [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: What about any neighbors or were there children from other families-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: --there a lot? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, Arstolds and-- they didn't live close. They had their own acreage and stuff. And we used to go to their house a lot. And Bumgarnters and--gee, I can't think of their names now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: That's okay. So in terms of the weather here--it can get pretty darn hot as we know today— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: --in the summer and pretty cold at times in the winter with no electricity. What was that like? Do you have any memories of the heat or the wind or the winter weather? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, we just made do. We had wood for fire. In the cook stove was the heater of the room. We only had two rooms on the hill, and the one house we lived on in the flat was a big one room thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: And my grandfather, after he died, we moved up there. And the cook stove kept us warm, but it didn't go all night. [LAUGHTER] You had to get up in the morning and put the kindling in and light it and get it going. And in the summer, you just stopped. And again, in the shade, that's all you could do. And it got really hot because there was no trees. No trees. And now you have green and trees. It makes it cooler. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Did you get many dust storms? Do you remember many dust storms? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. Lots of hard sand would blow against your legs when you was going back and forth to the pasture. Ooh. That really stung. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How about any wild animals? Were there coyotes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, coyotes, and rabbits. They used to have rabbit drives. A lot of men would get together so far apart and they'd drive the rabbits in front of them and then shoot them. Because they were a real menace. They get into your garden and eat everything up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah, I've heard about those before. Eating the crops were the problem, or the gardens, yeah. So I understand that you had a little bit of an accident. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes, I found a blasting cap that my dad had brought from Butte to blow up the sagebrush. It was big and tough to make more land, you know. And so I found an old one, and I thought it was full of dirt, picked at it and it blew up. Took my fingers off. But I made it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How old were you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I was 16 and very upset about it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so did you have to go to a doctor or a hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, went to Lourdes, and Dr. Spalding took care of my hand. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And was that the only hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Only one. And it was 13 miles, and the neighbors that had bought the flat--one room shack--took me over there. It was 13 miles or something. And I had to wait for a baby to be born before they could take care of me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: But they decided to keep my hand and not cut it off because it looked so bad. So I have a hand, just not the digits. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: How long did you have to stay at the hospital? How long did it take to recover? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Well, I stayed there longer than I need to do because I didn't have any place to go. My mother and father got a divorce, and she was very ill with arthritis. It's the kind that just comes overnight, and I forget the name of it. But it's a bad one. And so she and I were in the hospital the same time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: So they kept me there, and then I went to work--for three months they kept me, and I worked folding bandages and stuff before they autoclaved them or sterilized them. And then I worked at the doctor's home for his son--to take care of his baby son. Then I got to go down and eat at their restaurant in the evening. So I was just the daytime stuff, and I stayed there. And I was there till I decided that I needed to go to school and learn to work over. So I went to the Catholic school in Spokane--the House of Good Shepherd it was at that time. And they took wayward girls, but they decided my sisters and I would be a help at the place to do other things. But to mind the rules the same as they had to, which was okay with me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So how long were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh about two and a half years. My sister Mary was there 13 years, and Rosie was there 10 or so. But they did like Mary. She run the movie machine and helped the nuns. And I worked in the kitchen, and of course I learned to work. And worked in the where we ate in the cafeteria. And I got to go with the nuns when they went soliciting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So did you grow up Catholic then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Was there a Catholic church in the area anywhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, we had to come to Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: My mother brought a few children, and my sisters over in the summer for us to take our catechism. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So Kennewick was the place to go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. So we got our proper papers to be a Catholic. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Do you remember what the name of the church was in Kennewick? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: St. Joseph's as far as I know. That was the first church, and I think it was on—I don’t know--down by the canal. Now I don't know where it is for sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Yeah. I think it's on Clearwater now, but it used to be on-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And now I think it's on-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, yes. I know where that one is now, but I don't know where they moved the old church. Yeah, it's on Garfield--the new church, St. Joseph. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So after you were in Spokane for about two and half years. What happened to you at that point? Where did you go from there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Where did you go after you were in Spokane? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, I worked at a home and took care of invalid fellow and his baby when the family was gone. And I worked in the kitchen and fed the baby and all this. And they rang a bell for me [LAUGHTER] to come and wait on the table and stuff. And then they split up the families. The mother and father and the husband and wife moved out. So then I came out to--where did I go? Oh. I have to think. Where did I go? Oh, I went back to Richland, and I lived with a family that--he worked on the freeways and highways building, and she was home with two or three kids. And so I stayed there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: And in the summertime, we'd get to go to up in the mountains where they built highways. I forget the name of the one we was that one summer. Anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Remember the name of the family that you were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, Drieslers. Jack Driesler, and Nellie. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And then you said your parents got a divorce around the time you were 16, also. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so what happened to the family farm when your parents got divorced? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: The government bought it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And so did that happen when you were in Spokane that the government bought-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Or later? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. I was at 16, and I was born in 1920. So that was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: That was 1936. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And the government came in '43. So it would've been later. So did both your parents stay in Richland after they got divorced? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. He went back to mining up in Metaline Falls where his brother lived. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And how about your mother? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: She stayed here and married a guy that he lived out there by our school teacher. But when Hanford bought them out, they moved to Prosser and had a mint farm. And then my mother, she died young. She was 53. She died in '55. She had like emphysema and kidney problems. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: You mentioned that your grandfather had some land them on the hill above you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Now, did he stay there until '43? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No. He passed away before we moved up there. So that's how come we moved up there. Some of this is mixed up, I know. But I think it's off. [LAUGHTER] Been a long time ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, any--either events that really stand out in your mind or really special memories or anything like that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Not that I can think of at the moment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: There was a continual-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Speak up. I can't-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: --relationship between Rosie who was the youngest girl and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: We were raised together. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: --Mary. And they ganged up against Mary and pulled all kind of pranks like— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Off-camera man: --chucking cow patties at her and stuff like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So a little sibling rivalry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, she wanted to boss everything. [LAUGHTER] When she hears that, she'll--she's still alive. And Rosie wasn't going to have that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And Rosie was the youngest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. She was feisty. She passed away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And all three of you were in Spokane for a while. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: So what happened--your sisters, when they left Spokane, where did they go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Rosie went with my cousin Tony to Waukegan, Illinois and got a job there where they made pills-- filled pills. I don't know what you call it. But anyway, she got a job there and lived there about five years and came back out and met her husband out at the area. He was a--he drew--what do you call it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Draftsman. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Draftsman. And she was a secretary. And they met and married and moved back to Wenatchee where he was from, up there. And lived till they both passed away. Mary is still here with her husband Jim. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And then how about yourself? When the war came, did you move out of the area? Where else did you live besides-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Oh, I was up in Seattle working at the Swedish hospital. And for a while, I worked at the Bon Marche, downtown Seattle and helped the baker in the morning and cleaned the steam table. They had a little restaurant at that time, the Bon Marche did. I helped the baker make pies and cakes and stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: And when did you come back to Richland or to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: 1986. 50 years later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Changed quite a bit probably since you've been last living there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah, I'm lost yet! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: I was wondering what you would think would be important for people to understand about the community of Richland that you grew up in? To understand sort of what it was like to grow up there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I think it was a great life. And children worked and there wasn't so much vandalism. And of course, there wasn't that many people, but they were good people. I can't really think of anything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Well, thank you very much for coming in here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: This was terrific. Some really good stories and memories, and I really appreciate you being willing to come and talk with us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: There's probably a lot more, but I'm sorry I don't remember it all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Well, what you remembered is great. Thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Okay. You're welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: It wasn’t too bad, was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: No, I just wish I knew more. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: No, well, what you remembered is really— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: You did a terrific job, I’m proud of you. You obviously knew a ton of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: Good, good, good. As I said, some of those memories are great— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Camera man: Can I take a picture before you go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: --because people now don’t know— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: They had no electricity, they had no water, I mean you had to pump it out— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Bauman: It’ll go along with your information. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: When we put together all the stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: I hope it’s a good one! I don’t take good pictures anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: Oh, well, we all say that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Gilles: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX120208943"> Man: [LAUGHTER] </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:37:27 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1920-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Serdar, John; Gilles, Mary; Gilles, Rosie Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madeleine Gilles Description An account of the resource An interview with Madeleine Gilles conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/2/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [ J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick(Wash,) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Hanford (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F585bac4d8c0e62c055afe36908c97ac0.jpg 640f44dfcdeb54e0558fb537b2670052 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3100a84e1dc7f96919968a2190dcef33.mp4 e61f73aaacc84188b5b707d8c12d6cdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fox, John Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Fox_John John. Fox: Go and see if I can find any of the documents that I had written that were once classified and are now declassified. Robert Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Camera man: All right, I can adjust and play from here. Bauman: You good? Camera man: Yup. Bauman: All right. Camera man: I am. Bauman: Okay, we’ll go ahead and started then. Fox: Okay, fine. Bauman: So let's start by having you say your name. Fox: I'm John Fox. Bauman: Okay. And my name's Robert Bauman. Today is September 4th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start by, if you could, tell me about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when you arrived. Fox: Ah, yes. It was 1951. I had just completed a master's degree in mechanical engineering at Oregon State College at that time. And so it was early in the Korean War period, and I had been commissioned to a lieutenant in The Corps of Engineers when I graduated from college. So I was eligible to be called up from the Reserves. And this was one place where I applied for a job that didn't have any problem with that situation because they could supersede it during the Cold War period. So I was offered a job here. And I came to work in April of 1951. I didn't have my Q clearance yet. So they put me on odd jobs downtown in what was in the 700 Area for about three months until I got a Q clearance. And then I was assigned on the rotational training program for engineers, which involved three month assignments in various components over a period of a year and a half or so to give a choice of where there was a best fit for a job. Bauman: What were your first impressions of the place when you arrived? Fox: Well I had been warned, because when I was in college in the late '40s, one of my fraternity brothers had been assigned up here in the Army as guarding the plant for the anti-aircraft installations and so on. And then when he was discharged, he came to school. And he kept complaining about this being the middle of nowhere and dusty and desert, nothing to do and so on. So I had a picture of what it was like. And I expected to work here for a couple of years and then go get a job in California where I really wanted to live. In my younger years, I had lived part time in San Francisco and gone to school there in both elementary school and for a short time in high school. In fact, I was there when the war broke out—World War II broke out. And that's why I moved back to Portland. And I knew it had been very mysterious during the war. And so I was sort of prepared for it. But did not ever expect to stay very long. Bauman: What sort of housing did you live in when you first arrived here? Fox: Well, it was very full when I arrived because they were expanding again. They were constructing new piles and a new separations plant. So the first few weeks I lived in the construction workers' barracks in North Richland, what is now right near Battelle Boulevard and George Washington Way. And took the bus. I was single; I was broke; I didn't own a car. [LAUGHTER] But there was bus transportation within the city, as well as out to the plant. So I took the bus down to town for my job in the 700 Area. And then an opening came up in the dormitory. They had dormitories for men and women at the time, although there were more men than women. So I was assigned then to W21, which was on the corner of Lee and Stevens where Albertson's parking lot presently is. And that was a very social dorm. It was mostly young engineers, some others. So I lived there until 1953, when the first privately built houses were added to the city, the Bauer Day houses in the south end of town and the Richland Village houses at George Washington Way and the McMurray area north to Sacagawea School. And that was when the three of us—Jerry, and Wayne and I—moved into a Bauer Day house. Bauman: And where was that house? Fox: It was 346 Cottonwood on the corner of Cottonwood and Boise. Bauman: So how would you describe Richland in the early 1950s, when you first arrived, as a community? Fletcher: Well, I would describe it sort of from the social standpoint. For us, it was rather an extension of college life, if you will. There was a number of bachelor engineers. There were a number of secretaries, school teachers, and so on. There was nothing to do here. You realize that in those days there was not liquor by the drink in the states of Oregon and Washington. The only place you could drink liquor was in private clubs like the American Legion, the Elks, and so on. So you needed to know somebody who could get you into those clubs. You could go in the liquor store and buy a bottle and go to one of those and get a set up. Restaurants could not serve liquor. Taverns were okay; you could drink beer, or—wine wasn't very popular in those days. They had a lot of rot gut wine--Thunderbird and so on. And then taverns, you could not stand up with a glass of beer in your hand. You had to be seated. And you could not sing. [LAUGHTER] Interesting regulations. That changed in just two or three years. I forget when the law changed on that and it opened up to liquor by the drink. But that was great for the restaurants, but it killed the clubs—the fraternal clubs—slowly. But anyway, you had to make your own entertainment. And when I arrived, there had been something called a dorm club that was a social group for the singles. And it was just in the process of morphing into the Desert Ski Club. And so for something to do in the winter, I took up skiing, which I never had learned to do. And so we went on ski trips on the weekends and so on. And that became a main social activity. Over a period of time, sort of two by two, people got married off and that dwindled away in the long run. But the interesting thing is the Desert Ski Club has stayed as an active institution. I've since attended the 50th anniversary of which Stein Eriksen was a very famous skier in the '50s came and attended our 50th anniversary of the club. As far as I know, they are still going and organizing ski trips. And that was the genesis of a lot of other organizations of various types. The Richland Players for plays. The Richland Light Opera for musical performances. The I-MAC Mountaineering Club and hiking club. The Rod and Gun Club. All sorts of different clubs were formed for that. Book clubs around the library and other things. Bauman: Were there any sort of larger community events that you can recall from that period, Atomic Frontier Days, anything along those lines? Fox: There was an Atomic Frontier Days, but I can't recall when that commenced or when it ended. It wasn't anything we did. The other thing besides skiing, though, was water-skiing was just coming into vogue there. And of course, the people in the ski club took that up in the summer. And another fellow and I went together on a boat and a wooden—flat bottom wooden boat that was built really for racing in the Sammamish River, [LAUGHTER] a very shallow river. So we took that up. I remember that a couple of times I put on a water-skiing exhibition of sorts. I remember going up to Moses Lake from here with a group to put on a show. We used to go out on the highlands in the Columbia River and stay out there and bake in the sun all day and even water-ski at night and what have you. So we had a lot of fun doing that. So it was make your own entertainment. Bauman: And you mentioned that you lived in the Bauer Day home on Cottonwood. And how long did you live there? Where did you move after that? Fox: Actually, we moved in there in 1953. One by one, we got married. There was a turnover in roommates. I was the last one there. I was married in 1959. But the town was sold to the residents in 1958 and 1959. And I bought that house, because I was engaged and was going to get married and sort of kicked my last roommate out in the summer of '59. But in 1958, I also went in with a group of people to purchase land north of Richland, because the town at that time ended at about Newcomer Street. There were few houses built north of there. And the tracts of land between there and here on the WSU campus, Sprout Road, were auctioned off in various size tracts. And so a group of six of us went together and we bid on two tracts of land along the river. And one of the girls that used to go water-skiing all the time, we used to go down to the island that's just south of the island that's in front of the campus here. She always said I want to have a house on the river by that long island because that's where the best water is for water-skiing. And she got me so interested in that that a group of us went together and bid on two tracts of land along here. And then the auction, the way it was set up, we were the successful bidder on one of those tracts, although we were the second high. But we were closer to the high bid on that tract than on the other one. So we got that one. And it happens to be the tract that adjoins the campus here. And I have the—we subdivided into seven lots and sold the one that's next to the campus. And I'm on the other end of it, the last one. So I'm the seventh house down the street from where we sit. Bauman: Oh, okay. [LAUGHTER] So let's talk a little bit more about that. In 1958, the shift from Richland being sort of federal town. Fox: Yes. Bauman: Did it seem to you at the time that most people were in support of that, something that the people of Richland really wanted to happen? Fox: Well actually, that was a second go around. There was an earlier proposal by the government—I forget in what year, but let's say a couple of years earlier around '56 or so—to sell the property. Because it was apparent by that time that they weren't going to one day shut the plant down and kick everybody out. People—married people wanted an opportunity to own their own houses. And they were beginning to move away from Richland to Kennewick mainly, but also a little bit into West Richland where they could buy property and own their own home. So the government came out with a preliminary proposal, and people thought the prices were too high, considering the uncertainty of the longevity of the town itself and the investment and the risk. So they retooled that over I guess a two-year period. You can check this out from the history. And came back with a second proposal, which gave the option of buying the house at, as I recall, a higher price, but with a guaranteed buy-back at that price, should the price go down. But I think only one or two people took that option. They took the lowest price. [LAUGHTER] As I recall, I paid $7,000 for the Bauer Day house in 1958 or '59, whenever that closed. Bauman: So let's talk about your work then in Hanford. You mentioned you did these sort of three month-- Fox: Yes. Bauman: --working at different places at the site. Fox: Yeah. Bauman: After that period, where did you work then? Fox: Well actually, I had a lot of other changes through the years. But after that period, my assignment was in what was called the irradiation testing group, which managed special tests of radiation of unusual things in the piles—I'll call them piles because that's what they were called at that time originally—that were not related to the production of plutonium process directly. They might have something to do with something that was related to improving the process, but often they were unrelated completely. A couple of examples that stand out in my mind, one was a submarine reactor control rod that was for the nuclear Navy program. Of course, before they had completed their test facility in Idaho Falls. And they wanted to get some data on the durability of the design of the rod. And so that had to be placed in vertically in one of the reactors. And it was in—what was then very new—C pile. And put in place of one of the vertical safety rods. And it was particularly interesting in that, after that test was finished—because it had some tubing that came up for the monitoring and measuring of it while it was in the pile—in extracting it, it got stuck coming out. And it resulted in the longer than planned shutdown of the reactor. [LAUGHTER] Which did not go well with the production quotas. So that was a difficult time, but it was probably the most interesting one. Another one involved C pile before it started up. Actually, while I was on a rotation program one of my assignments was graveyard shift in the stacking of the graphite inside the pile. So I've actually been inside one of the reactors. And I was the inspector to see that each bar went in the right location and according to the plan for layout and nobody was tracking any contaminating material in there and so on. But also before that went into operation, there was a chamber underneath the reactor. And a scientist from Los Alamos named Fred Reines was trying to find experimental proof of the existence of neutrinos, which characteristically can pass through most any matter undetected. And so he got permission to build an apparatus called a scintillation counter chamber with fluid underneath that reacted—using the reactor as a shield from other background events to try to see if he could get a few counts of neutrino interactions in that chamber. He later went on, did the experiments in that deep gold mine in South Dakota and other locations and contributed to the verification of neutrino existence. Eventually won a Nobel Prize at the end of his career, at the end of his life, literally. So that was another just interesting thing. It had nothing to do with Hanford, but that occurred in that assignment. We used to, when I worked in that, our office was in the fire station at H Area. And so we used to visit, there was more of the old town of White Bluffs at that time. There was a cold storage facility, the bank, of course, which they're now talking about restoring. There was the old Milwaukee railroad station, very picturesque. Sorry they tore that down. And we used to go drive down there and eat lunch under the remaining trees. Later, I was transferred to the graphite group. And that was in 1954. And the history of after they started up the piles and they first discovered the xenon poisoning and so on. That story is well-told. But there was also what they considered a serious problem with the distortion of the graphite. The graphite was expanding under radiation. And so at the top of the reactor, it was visibly—not visibly, but measurably bending the tube that the slugs were in. And it was becoming more difficult to push them in and out and loading the reactor. And they thought if this keeps going, we can't continue the operation. In fact, it's my recollection--I don't have the records—that they shut down B-Reactor for some period of time in order to preserve it. And they built DR, which was a replacement for D in case they had to abandon it. But then there was much more concern about the expansion of the graphite. So they changed the inert atmosphere inside the reactor shielding from helium to a mixture of helium and carbon dioxide to heat it up—heat the graphite up—to a higher temperature figuring that this would anneal out the damage to the graphite. That did happen, in fact. And so I was assigned to keep track of how this was progressing according to the power levels of the reactor, because they were also then trying to increase the power levels of the reactor to produce more plutonium. But they didn't know how high in temperature was safe to go, didn't have good ways to measure the temperature in them. We were measuring the profiles. And so that was a very interesting task. And I was there doing that until 1956, when Hanford Laboratories was formed. And the Hanford Laboratories was formed and given the project for recycling plutonium in nuclear power reactors, which was their first peacetime mission for the Hanford Plant—or purely exclusively peacetime—unclassified, nothing to do with production of plutonium. But aimed at getting the maximum amount of energy out of the uranium ore resources. And so that would involve design of the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor from start to finish and the operation of that. That was a heavy water reactor, entirely different type of unique design. And so that was a very interesting project. So I was fortunate in having some very different job assignments throughout my career here in different technologies. And that, in fact, is what kept me here [LAUGHTER] for so long is that ever-changing job challenge. Bauman: So how long were you at the PRTR? Fox: I was there from 1956 until early 1960s, till about '63. I forget the date it went critical and into operation and I then moved on to other things because I wasn't associated with the operation of it. But it also has a very interesting operating history, because of a particular experiment that was done there that went awry. Bauman: Do you want to talk about that? [LAUGHTER] Fox: Well, I think it's well worth getting somebody who knows more about it who was involved in the fuel technology. Particularly today when there is a project at Savannah River for building mixed oxide fuel elements from the plutonium that's recovered from the weapons reduction program. And they have a project there that's in about the same sort of situation as the Vitrification Plant here in budget and schedule and so on. And yet, in the 308 Building in the 300 Area, mixed oxide plutonium, uranium oxide fuel elements were manufactured for the PRTR back in the late 1950s and early 1960s. That plant has since been torn down. But the experiment that went awry was to run—the fuel rods in the PRTR were made of zirconium clad mixed oxide fuel elements, very similar to what's normal for nuclear power reactors. And that was the whole idea, that they were different mainly, and that they contained plutonium from the beginning. But it was decided to run an experiment to see how hot you could run those. If you could run them safely with the core of the mixed oxide molten in a fuel element that's about so in diameter. And I forget the melting point, but it's higher than 2,200 centigrade or something like that. And one of the fuel elements melted through the cladding and the pressure tube holding it and so on and seriously damaged the reactor. And had to have been—it was a big repair job. And I'm sure that's all recorded. I was not associated with it, but of course I heard about it [LAUGHTER] at the time. It's a story well worth telling, I think, about that time. Bauman: So after your assignment at PRTR, then where did you go from there next? Fox: Well, then we were working on trying to develop further reactor concepts. We did a little work for NASA when they were working on a rocket reactor that they had a design that was competing with Los Alamos for nuclear rockets. But that came to naught. Eventually, the successor to the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor was the Fast Flux Test Reactor, fast reactor fuel. And that was just beginning. That was after Battelle took over the operation of the laboratories in 1965. So that's beyond the time frame for your main interest. But in the late '60s, the group I was in was working partly to support Exxon Nuclear in their private fuel manufacturing venture, which they later sold to Siemens, and which Siemens later sold to AREVA, which is still in operation of manufacturing commercial reactor fuel. But that grew out of the lab. And some of the people, in fact, one of them who used to work for me that I just had lunch with at the Kiwanis meeting ended up working for Exxon and so on, and he retired from that. So that was a spin-off project. The FFTF project was turned over in 1970 to Westinghouse Hanford and taken away from Battelle. And at that time I had the choice of going either with the FFTF project or staying with Battelle for who knows what. And I decided to stay with Battelle for who knows what. I decided to get out of the nuclear business and move on to other things. Bauman: Hanford, obviously, is a site that emphasized security, secrecy, to a certain extent as well. Fox: Yes. Bauman: How did that impact your work? Or did it in any way? Fox: The security? Bauman: Security and secrecy. Fox: I didn't think it impacted it all that much. When I was working the 100 Areas, you know, it was a secure area. Nearly everything we did was classified. We had classified filing cabinets. We kept everything. We had to account for all the documents in our possession, or sending them into the library, so on. So there was more or less an accounting thing we had to destroy any drafts, procedures, and so on. You didn't want to forget your badge going to work. [LAUGHTER] After I retired, I still occasionally had a dream about going to work and somehow getting in the building and then discovering I didn't have my badge and thought, how—[LAUGHTER] what's going to happen? But you know, I think there were a few occasions when I forgot my badge. But it was never a big issue. I was—eventually in Battelle, I had very few classified documents. And it became more of a nuisance to have a classified file cabinet and so on. And then they can through on a campaign to reduce the number of security clearances. And they asked me to give up my security clearance. I didn't have any problem with that because it relieved me of that nuisance. It wasn't a problem to me about discussing it with anybody external. I think there was probably a little more cross talk between different projects. For example, at the time I came there were some projects that were a little more secret than others, like the P10 project for production of tritium at B Reactor. And some of the guys in the dorm were working on that. And they would talk about the problems with a metal liner, the glass liner, or this, that, or the other thing. We didn’t know—you got some idea of what that project was like, but you didn't really know the whole flow sheet for it or all of that. But you were aware that it was going on. So, just stuff like that. Bauman: President Kennedy visited the site in 1963. I wonder if you were there when he visited? Fox: That's right. You could go out there and you could take your camera with you. And you could take a photo of President Kennedy giving his speech, which I did. And that was not long before he was assassinated that fall. I forget the date, but it was maybe September of '63. Bauman: Mm-hmm, yeah. So you got a photo of him while he was giving his speech? Fox: Yeah. Yes, I did from a distance. I didn't have a good telephoto lens, [LAUGHTER] unfortunately at the time. Bauman: Do you remember anything else about his visit? Fox: Not especially. I don't remember what he said. Bauman: Were there any other events or incidents or things from those early years working at Hanford that stand out to you that you remember? Fox: A sort of an off-the-wall type of one. This was back earlier on when I was at the fire station at H Area. And at that time, there was a fighter aircraft based at Moses Lake, Larson Air Force Base. And again, it was protection for the Hanford plant. And a pilot from there had a flame-out over the Yakima firing range somewhere and ejected and landed on the Hanford plant. And he landed in a tree. And they had to—Hanford patrol had to get him out of his parachute out of the tree. [LAUGHTER] How ironic in all of that space that he could find a tree to land in. [LAUGHTER] But the—I’m trying to think—there were other events. There was an incident with the startup of K West Reactor. I think that's another sort of plant war story to tell. And I don't know what's been said about that. I recall there was a deadline to meet for the startup of the N Reactor. And that was practically willed into happening [LAUGHTER] before the stroke of midnight or so on. And you know there were sort of war stories to be told about that. Bauman: What would you consider the most challenging aspects of working at Hanford, especially in the '50s and '60s? And what might have been some more rewarding aspects of your work there? Fox: Well, the challenging aspects were trying to get more production for the Cold War and trying to determine what were the safe limits on operation for the piles, the temperature limits, avoiding incipient boiling in the tubes in the reactor core. And I assume that there were similar issues with the chemical processing plants. Again, because of the compartmentalization of the technology, I never worked in the 200 Areas. I had no understanding of the processes there or the issues there. And the infamous green run that you've probably heard some people talk about had occurred before I came here. That was very early in the Cold War, but they still talked about it. Individual radiation exposure limits were more—I wouldn't say they were casual—but compared to today's standards, they were relaxed. Procedures for doing things were not as cumbersome as they are today. It's practically impossible to get anything done today [LAUGHTER] under the work rules and procedures by comparison. And yet, it got done and generally safely. The only really serious accident that I can recall that involved radiation was the one in the Plutonium Finishing Plant with the glove-box with the americium. And I can't recall the employee's name got the bad exposure with americium and had treatment. But I don't know anything about the specifics of it. One technical challenge that was not met that I can recall, and I had one of the assignments on the rotational training program, which I mentioned earlier, was in the fuel manufacturing area in the 300 Area. I don't know if you've interviewed anybody who worked there, but the fuel process had an aluminum can about eight inches long and about a little over an inch in diameter. And you stuck the uranium slug in it. But where you did that in order to bond it to the slug, you stood over a pot of molten aluminum silicon alloy. And you had a holder that held the uranium can and the steel tube. You lowered that into the pot of molten alloy. And the operator manually pushed the solid uranium slug into it and then lifted it out and set it aside. And then it was cooled off and cleaned off and sent over to weld the cap on the aluminum can. Well, General Electric looked at this and said, this is a cumbersome manual process. And these workers are standing over this pot of hot molten alloy. Not a pleasant job. And we ought to be able to automate this, so they set up two competing approaches to automating it. And one was, let me call it a tinker toy set up approach. It's a disparaging term, but attempt to replicate the manual process with machinery to repeat—robotic, I guess, is a better word to use--to replicate that process. And I had a short assignment for three months because I was a mechanical engineer on doing that. And I made a couple of suggestions for it, which didn't work out as it turned out. So I didn't contribute anything to make a success of that. And it was ultimately unsuccessful. The other was for the design group to design a machine to do it by some alternate process. And there was a third process proposed that was more mechanical bonding process, but that was never tried out experimentally. The ultimate result was no process failed. And they used the manual process for as long as the whole production reactors existed. The N Reactor, the dual purpose reactor, used a completely different process because it required high temperature materials. Bauman: So then what would have been some of the more rewarding aspects of working at Hanford for you? Fox: Well to me personally, it was interesting because it was, of course, an entirely new technology at that time. And it was apparent to me that the Hanford graphite reactor technology was not suitable for power reactors in the long run. It got me to thinking about that. I had the opportunity also later toward the end of the '60s and the early '70s to teach a course here at what was then joint graduate center in reactor design. And also for three or four years to help with a spring quarter design course at the University of Washington in Seattle as an adjunct there in their spring design graduate level course on reactor design. So that, again, was very interesting, the interaction with students, and particularly at the University with foreign students. It's a clear contrast between American educated students and foreign educated students and trying to stimulate different ideas or taking a different look at things in the design course for how to apply the basic knowledge or principles or how to make trade-offs when you also had to get into the economics of things. The Hanford plant really didn't have much of an economic element to it. It was wartime, and you know it's almost at any cost—not quite that way, but-- So it led me to be able to think of things differently and think more of the getting into application versus theory. Bauman: Mm-hmm. Most of the students that I teach now were born after the Cold War ended, or many of them were, and don't know much about it or certainly don’t have many memories of it. So I wonder what you might say to either those students that I would have or future generations about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Fox: Well, I didn't think of it as anything special. And quite frankly, I think that I see these ads on television daily now about Cold War warriors or so on contributing to the Cold War effort. And I never viewed it in that or through a quasi-patriotic way. It was an interesting job. It was more interesting than a lot of other jobs I might have had in a career. And the fact that it in some way contributed to the beneficial end to the Cold War was okay, but I don't feel it deserves anything special. I mean, there are quite a few other things that needed to be in place to prevail in the Cold War—the whole rocket missile technology, the miniaturization of the weapons, the nuclear weapons, the hydrogen bomb, which Hanford had little contribution to, except the early production of tritium. It just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Bauman: I wonder if I could ask you, at what point did you get involved in city government? And was that in any way any connection to your work at Hanford at all? Fox: No. No, no connection. I've always had some interest in government, maybe inspired by a high school civics teachers named Wade Williams at Lincoln High School in Portland. And a high school alumni bulletin I just got last week named him as one of their outstanding teachers of all time. And he was a controversial guy, a very provocative guy. Staunch Republican in an era when everybody was a Democrat and a successful baseball coach [LAUGHTER] teaching government or social studies. But when we had kids in school I was on the school board for eight years in the late '70s and early '80s. Because I was concerned that the school that they built across the street here was mal-designed for the high school. And that the school was off on an education fad of the decade, was dictating school design according to some idealistic model that wasn't very practical in practice. But I just basically believe it’s a citizen's responsibility to give something back to the community as best he or she can, according to their abilities, whatever way works. And I felt I had something to contribute along that line. When I was on the school board, I was a dissenting vote on eliminating the teaching of world history at the junior high level, because students aren't interested in that kind of thing. And I'm not a believer in ignoring history, which is why I'm here today, isn't it? We're talking about the history of Hanford. When I retired, I wanted to do something more. And I got on the Parks Commission and ultimately, on the city council. Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about your time working at Hanford, or that you haven't talked about yet that you think would be important to talk about? Fox: Well as I've been saying to a number of people in talking about the Reach and the CREHST Museum and so on and some of the issues they have their currently, I think is important not to think just about the wartime mission or the wartime plus the Cold War mission, but it has led to other things. As I think I mentioned by a couple of examples I previously gave that it lead to peacetime missions. And part of that was a deliberate federal policy to say, okay, we've started this community here. There's a big investment in that community. We need to find a way to support some economy there after the wartime mission is completed and the plant is shut down. And so it led to peacetime missions. And that's led to the evolution of what's now the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and a whole science and technology. And there are unforeseen consequences of that. And the unforeseen consequences aren't always bad. [LAUGHTER] They seem to be for any action taken in the Middle East. But here, it's led to a very vital research laboratory. And we wouldn't have a branch campus of a university here today without that. And that's all an asset to the community. When the Hanford plant was originated, people came from all over the country to work here. It built a more diverse community of backgrounds and interests than in any other city its size in eastern Washington. And that persists now. It's a legacy from that. And it's built on and built on and built on in those directions. Out of the lab came the original patent for digital recording, little known, totally unrelated, so on. What else will come out of it in the future? We can't know. But I think we can estimate that something will come out of it that will be for the greater good and we'll see. Bauman: All right. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and talking with us about your experiences. Appreciate it. Fox: Okay. Thanks. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:01:38 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 185 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview H Area VIT PLant 300 Area K West Reactor N reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Fox Description An account of the resource An interview with John Fox conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-9-4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 300 Area General Electric H Area Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) K West Reactor N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F481704163b47c34d27908164c1fdc660.jpg 8a2e3bfe1edb0794b3cd9318e0e310fc https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fedbf9aa4f2660aeda91b37fc51893caf.mp4 c40bdc18fe18a007a6e57a94ccfefe2c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Fletcher Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Northwest Public Television | Fletcher_Robert </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I'm Robert Fletcher. R-O-B-E-R-T F-L-E-T-C-H-E-R. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 20th of 2013. And this interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by maybe having you talk about your family and how they came to this area, what brought them here, when they came-- that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: My folks--my mother and father--grew up in Wisconsin. They knew each other in high school, and my father came out west, because my mother had relatives in Idaho, and after she graduated she came out here to stay with them and go to business college in Spokane. So my dad was fond of her and he followed her by working his way west. He was an expert milker, and he could always get a job in a dairy. Because when you worked in a dairy milking cows you had to get up at 3:00 in the morning. And so when he'd work his way from Wisconsin to maybe South Dakota, and he would see--in the depot, in the train depot--he would look on the bulletin board for openings for milkers and he always found work. And he could stay there for several weeks till he got enough money to move on. So he wound up in Lewiston, Idaho, I believe it was. And eventually he and my mother got together and they got married in Coeur d'Alene, 1912. And I had a sister born in 1915 in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, Francille. And another sister was born in 1918. In the meantime, during World War I, my dad had been working in a, what's called electrical substation in Coeur d'Alene. And during the war then he went over to Bremerton and worked in the shipyards at Bremerton, wiring electrical wiring on the ships. And my mother eventually followed. My mother became a secretary and could do the office work. But after kids were born, she didn't do much of that. And then after the war was over, Bremerton jobs closed up and he went to the back to work at another electric substation down by Walla Walla, Milton-Freewater. And he had been raised on a farm and he had a desire to be independent. So at that time there were developments in Kennewick and then whole Tri-City area. They were developed because irrigation water was being made available from the rivers. And in Richland, there were private developers and they would get bonds that were backed by just state. The state government wanted to support the development to get started, and that was in late 1918s, '20s. And I'm sure my dad--well, my dad told me that there were brochures that these companies would advertise that, come to Kennewick or Richland, that water was available, the climate was ideal, and there soil was great, and you could make a living on just a few acres if you knew how to farm. So my dad travelled out here. His name was Francis, and C. F. Fletcher was his-- And he bought 20 acres of sagebrush. It was what is now on--what did I say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Spangler? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Spangler Road. He bought 20 acres there out there at the top of the hill. It was all sagebrush. And then later he bought 10 acres down below the hill where there now is a trailer park or mobile homes. He had to arrange to get the teams of horses to pull out the sagebrush and level the ground. My mother and—I believe that she had two children then, Francille, and Medo is my other sister's name, born in 1918. They came out by train from Walla Walla to Kennewick. And Morton Hess met them at-- Morton Hess had a improvised old pickup that dad said that they met them at the depot in Kennewick, and he brought them out to the farmhouse he'd rented. Before that, my dad had a team of horses, and he brought all his possessions in a wagon from Milton-Freewater to Richland that took him three days, he said, to make that trip with the team of horses. And so after he got the house rented, then he sent for my mother, had my mother come out with the children. And they lived in this rented farmhouse about a quarter of a mile away. And there were a few other houses, a few other farms being developed at the same time. So that took a lot of effort. It was 1920, and he told me that he had to put in the irrigation. The company brought water to the edge of your property and then you had to put in the pipe yourself. They were cement pipes, about three feet long, 40 pounds, eight inches in diameter. And he said he put in several hundred feet of this pipe and he thought he'd done a pretty good job. He worked hard. Turned the water on and it just leaked all over, so he had to do it all over again. He was pretty persistent. And then they had a hard time the first few years because he was small, a small person, and a greenhorn. About the only income work you could get then was to work for the irrigation company if you wanted to earn some money. And usually that was when the water was shut off and they had to clean and repair the ditches, open ditches. And he said they wouldn't hire him for a year or two because they thought well, he was a greenhorn. He wouldn't last anyway, and he was kind of small. But he stuck it out. And what happened was they had to put in some new pumps for the irrigation system, and these were larger pumps. They were three-phase motors, and there wasn't anybody immediately around that knew how to fix them, how to hook them up. Excuse me, I get very emotional. So he told them he thought he thought he could do it. He wasn't too sure. He said he could do it. He told them he could do it. He said he, personally, he said he wasn't too sure. But anyway, he went ahead with it and they worked fine. And after that, he said he didn't have any trouble getting a job for the irrigation district. And later on, several years after he got the farm started and everything, he did become manager of the irrigation district. When I talk about the irrigation district, it wasn't a huge one, but there was about 5,000 acres under water. And most of the farms were like ours, 20, 30 acres. And because you had to have a team of horses. You couldn't farm like you can nowadays with everything mechanized like it is. Lots of hand labor. So I was born in 1922, and I believe that they were still in this rented house. But in the meantime, they'd begun work on a basement, which was about half underground and half above ground with concrete side walls. And so it was above the ground enough, it had had fairly good sized windows. And there were just two rooms. The total probably wasn't more than 40 feet long and 20 feet wide. And above that they put a temporary sort of a shelter that was more of a tent house with a wooden roof and canvas with a wooden frame with canvas around it. And that was our bedroom. That was where we had our bedrooms. And it was cold in the winter and hot in the summer, but in the summertime you could roll the canvas up and the evening breeze would cool it off. In the wintertime we had feather beds and my mother would warm up hot irons on the cook stove, and we'd wrap them in towels and put in our beds. And we managed, thought we were living all right. There wasn't any bathroom--there was no indoor bathroom, no indoor water supply. He dug a well down below the hill. Had to do it by hand, about 20 feet deep. And the way to get water up to the house, he had a, we called it a stone boat, it was a sled. He hooked the horses to it, the sled, and to pretty good sized barrels, I suppose 40 gallon barrels or something. He'd fill them with water from the hand pump down below the hill. And he'd circle around it, bring that sled up. That was the water supply for a few days. But of course, it didn't always last long enough. And I can remember my mother carrying two buckets [EMOTIONAL] of water up the hill. Excuse me. It was a hard life for women, especially, carrying water up the hill, and all the other work they had to do then. She was in charge of the garden. Of course, we had our weekly bath by a copper tub on a cook stove. And the tub, and that's where we took our weekly bath, and shared the affair. The two rooms in the house were the kitchen and then where we ate. The other room was the living quarters and where somebody might sleep if they were not feeling well, otherwise we slept upstairs in the tent house. So those were the early days. It took them quite a little while for my dad to get established, and also get some crops down that they could pay for their living expenses. And they had Fresnos then that the team of horses would pull, and they'd scoop the dirt and dump it in the low places and level it out. And farmers worked together on that. I can remember our neighbors--as I said, most people lived within a quarter or a half mile of each other. The Barnetts and the Nickolauses lived close to us and we shared--when it was time to put in some of the crops, the Barnetts would come with their mowing machine and there would be two or three mowing machines and everything going on, and we'd go back and forth and get the job done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So what sorts of crops did you grow then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: We--it was truck farming. We had to raise--we had to have cows. Truck farming was not too reliable. You had to, to fall back on, you had a herd of cow--most all farmers had a herd of cattle which they had milk cows and some beef cows. And you milked the cow--you had your own milking and made your own cheese, but you could sell to the creamery in Kennewick. And we had a milk house where we'd separate the cream from the milk. And we had the Twin City Dairy, I think it was, would come by once a week and collect the milk. We'd keep the milk in a cool water place or something. I don't remember now in details. We didn't have refrigeration. Maybe they came back twice a week. I'm not sure. So we had a herd of cattle, and of course you always had a team of work horses. And I had a pony when I got old enough, about third grade I think. In school I got a pony that had been tamed--he had been one of the wild horses from Horse Heaven Hills. And a bunch of horses had been caught. And we bought it from another fella, and he as a real-- Shorty was his name, and I thought he was the greatest horse, because he could outrun any horse. We had horse races. And a lot of the kids, the only horse they had to ride was a work horse. So I was very fortunate. Anyway, we raised alfalfa for the cattle and the animals. Alfalfa and clover, and of course you had to mow the hay in the summertime and let it dry and put it up in wagons and carry it and take it into the hay stack for the winter. We also raised some acres of corn, of field corn, although we could eat some of the corn when it was quite young, but it was mostly raised for the cattle. And we had an in-ground silo where we had a—we’d bring in, when the corn was mature we'd cut it down with machetes and bring the corn stocks and ears and all and run it through the chopper and made silage out of it. It would ferment in this silo, which was about 20 feet deep and it was dug out near the barnyard. And about I guess 12 feet wide or so. As a kid it looked bigger, probably, than it actually was. But anyway, that was part of the barnyard. And with the silage and the haystack, we kept the cattle going through the winter. Because you had to have enough hay to get through and that took quite a load. And then for field crops, we had a cherry orchard of three or four acres. We raised asparagus three or four acres. And that was a job that--that was a cash crop that game on early in the year in March. And the whole family pitched in. We got up early, almost daybreak to cut the asparagus. Before school you had to have it cut. And then they'd go ahead and you had to pack it in crates to get it ready to market. So we had the asparagus, and then we had, between the trees in the orchard-- one time my dad experimented with peanuts. And I don't think they turned out too well because I don't remember him having them very long. We planted strawberries. We had strawberries that we picked after the asparagus was done, the strawberries would be get ripe. And then the cherries would get ripe in June usually. And so it was staggered out. And then we always had a field of potatoes that you'd dig with a team or horses and a digger. But before you did that, you had to get seed potatoes, and they came whole. The family would--we had a cellar in our house. We'd cut those potatoes into quarters, so there's an eye on each one and that would sprout into a potato plant. And we spent probably a couple weeks, maybe not that long, cutting the seed potatoes into where they could be planted in the field. And I'm trying to think of other crops that we had. I know he tried different ones. We had peas--peas in a pod. And I don't think that paid off too well because I don't remember it lasting too long. Oh, we had some peaches. Not a big orchard, but we had some peaches and apricot trees. Those were sort of under my mother's domain, the garden and the apricots. And she made sure that we all pitched in and helped do the weeding and planting and picking. And all of that had to be picked and canned for the winter. I can remember my mother and sisters working hard--doing a lot of work canning. And the cellar was just full of--they were quite proud to display, in those days, to display their glass jars of fruit, peaches and everything. And took it to the fair to see if they could win some blue ribbons. So we didn't buy too much from the local grocery store, except cooking oil and bananas--fruit that wouldn't grow here. Orange. Those were a treat. Just a few times during the year bananas and oranges we got at Christmastime or your birthday or something. And the store was John Dam's, John Dam Plazas down here, named after the Dam Grocery Store. And there were two men, John Dam and Victor Nelson. They ran the grocery store. And you didn't go looking for your things. You handed them a list. You wanted two gallons of kerosene for your lamps and lanterns that you needed. No electric lights. And as I said, cooking oil, and flour and sugar in bulk. And once in a while you'd get a treat of candy or something such as that. So I think that covers pretty much what the farm was like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: The crops that you grew, the cherries, strawberries, did you sell those somewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah. We picked and put them in crates. There was what they called the Big Y--it was in Kennewick. And it stood for Yakima I think. Yakima--there was a branch of Yakima Produce Company. And later on I worked there nailing, making boxes for different kinds of fruit when I was in high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: In fact, most kids did extra jobs like that. Excuse me. I've got to take a drink. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: I was going to ask you about your farm. You mentioned some underground silo. Were there any other buildings on your farm? Any warehouse or barn or any of that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah. There was a barn from the cows, of course. And there are pictures in my booklet of some of these chicken houses in the yard, a couple of chicken houses. And a milk house. We had pigs. The pigs consumed a lot of the excess milk. You could--they'd eat most anything you had that was extra. And that was another thing we shared was when it came time to butcher a cow or a calf or a pig for meat, there was a man that was sort of a local veterinarian--I don't think he had a degree--Sam Supplee. If your horse got sick, he knew what--or an animal got his foot caught in the barbed wire, he knew how to treat it. And he'd come by. And he also knew how to butcher animals quite well. And he would come out. And I can remember that we had a hole, a pit dug out where we could put a fire in there, and it was covered with some kind of bars or metal affair. And a vat of water would be put in that over the fire at ground level. And adjacent to that would be a platform where the pig was killed. And after it had been killed and the organs taken out, they'd roll it into that vat of boiling water and then pull it back out again after a few minutes. Then you could scrape the bristles off of the pig. And Sam Supplee then would do the rest of the butchering. They'd hang it up to cure overnight, and then to cut it up. And for his efforts, he'd get part of the meat, or other people that had helped out, and that's the way that they operated. And he was a local person they turned to. There were other veterinarians in Pasco or Kennewick, but he was the one that they mainly relied on. Our horses, we had two work horses, Star and Monte. I can remember them well, and that was one of my jobs when I got home from school, after, was usually to rub them down after a day's work in the field, because they'd be all sweaty. Or on days when I wasn't at school, too, in the summertime, too take them down to the ditch where they'd drink a lot of water. They got real hot and sweaty. And then take the harnesses off. And there's lots of preparation before you could do too much. And so those were some of my jobs was to take in--you got home from school, the first thing to do was take in the firewood for the wood stove or the heating stove. And there were plenty of other things to do around the barnyard, to clean out the stall, or clean out the barn and see that horses were fed and such things as that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: The thing was, I think that maybe a little different than nowadays, kids knew that they were part of the family and that they were an important part of the family. And that they had jobs to do. And just it was the thing that made families close. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I wanted to mention, too, that we did have special family friends. I mentioned the Barnetts. And they had kids that were--Dan Barnett was about my age. And my sisters had--they had daughters. Anyway, they had kids about our same age. The Hackneys were another family that lived not very far away and had a farm. And there was Richard Hackney and Dan Barnett and I were always good friends for a long time. And some other kids in that area, the Supplees. So I guess I forgot where I was here. The Hackneys and the Fletcher families and the Carlsons were particularly close. The Carlsons also had children that were our ages. And we would get together for family picnics, and especially Fourth of July we'd make our homemade ice cream and take to Pasco Park where there'd be fireworks. And then in the summertime, we always had a break in the farm work of about four or five days where we could get away from the farm. Usually it was around the Fourth of July or a little bit after. And we would get away because the irrigation ditches were shut down for a few days, about four or five days in order for the ditches to dry out and the weeds could be cleaned out. Because they clogged up with moss and other stuff. So that they would dry out the ditches and we could get away from the farm, as long as we had a neighbor to take care of the animals that we had. And there were enough other people that would do that. We'd trade off. So we would manage to get away for about three or four days and go up to above Yakima, Naches and up into the woods. And we we'd take our tents. One of the, the Hackneys, Art Hackney was a school bus driver, and school bus driver had to have their own buses. They'd own their own buses. So he could do with the bus whatever he wanted during the summertime. So he would be the one that we would load up the bus--he took a few of the seats out that could be taken out-with our camping gear in it, and some of the rest of the people would ride in that bus and others would go in their car. We'd invite some of our friends to go along too. So we'd have quite a group and several tents set up there around the lake up at Naches, Rimrock and up in that area. We had a wonderful time up in there with all our friends, and sitting around the campfire at night and hearing the stories that the older folks had to tell. So that's-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. A real sense of community there, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah. Part of the community. It was a close-knit community for sure. And naturally, you had more close friends with some of the people than you did with others. But as I said in my book that there was no--when you were gone, nobody as I knew, locked their houses or worried about any of that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. You mentioned earlier that the house you lived in there was no running water, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: No electricity. Did you ever have a telephone? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: That's another little story. My mother, her relatives lived in Wallace, Idaho, and her uncle, aunt and uncle, her uncle was a master carpenter. And they were very close and would come down to visit us and they were very helpful. When we were, when my folks were just starting out, they were a backbone to help them out as much as they could. They bought eggs from them and they'd ship them. I have some letters that my mother saved of that period in time. You may be interested in some of those. Anyway, they would come down, and after my dad--after he had this basement house built, they was able to save up enough in about 10 years to--Josh Pentabaker was my uncle's granduncle's name--was the main carpenter. And they arranged to buy a load of lumber from a lumber yard or a sawmill up in Bickleton, and they rented a truck or got somebody to haul this load of lumber down. And this Josh Pentabaker and my dad, and I think he got some local help, to get started on building a house above to replace that tent--actually a tent house that we had above the basement house. And then they enlarged it also. They made the basement twice as large to accommodate a more modern house. And that was in 1933 or 1934. And I think it was 1934 before we occupied it. And that included indoor bathroom and running water. In the meantime, before my dad was able to build a dig a new well up on top of the hill, he had to go down 60 feet for groundwater. And so that was quite a project. But he finally got it done. And he got an electric motor then. By that time, see, there was no electricity until during Roosevelt got the REA started, rural electricity or whatever the word is, REA. And you got an electric pump to pump the water up into a tank. And then you had pressure to run the water from the tank into the house--had water pressure. And so we had running water, we had an indoor bathroom, and those were quite appreciated. I think we got electric stove--that was one of the first thing. And that was quite an improvement over a wood stove. Oh, and then there was. And he didn't have enough money, I don't believe—oh, let me tell you, or let me go back just a bit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Josh Pentabaker got this house pretty well built, but he had to go back and do his own work back in Wallace, Idaho. And my dad negotiated with a carpenter here, a local carpenter, Vandersant-- he was a Dutchman. And my dad traded a cow, a milk cow for this fella to put in a--he was a master carpenter, too. He put in the kitchen cabinets, is what I'm trying to say, and some of the other cabinets in the bathroom and things like that in exchange for this cow. Now, there may have been other things involved, but that was the main thing. He told about that in later years, and I can vaguely remember. In addition to the basement then, we got a root cellar where we kept most of our things cold. But anyway, before he could get a refrigerator, he cut a hole in the wall of the kitchen and he made a cabinet inside, and hung outside a metal tank or a metal thing that held water. And then he ran down some gunnysack fabric and that wetted enough to evaporate and cool the cabinet inside. It was quite a contraption. But it worked enough that it probably wasn't much cooler than the basement, but anyway, it was up and it was handy. So that was when we--in 1934 I think that we occupied the house that's there now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Did you ever have a telephone during the time you were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, we had a phone. You cranked it. I'm trying to think whether we had it when we lived in the basement, whether we had it there or not. It was a party line, and there would be three or four people on the same line. And you answered according to how many rings. If it was two rings it was yours, or a short and a long or something like that. And of course people listened in on what was going on. We had a crank--it was, you cranked it up in order to make the signal. And there was a main station downtown. We were three miles from the downtown area up on what is now George Washington Way. And what's the name of that street? I can't remember all those--the house was on-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Spangler? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Spangler, yeah. Spangler Road. We had to--you kept up--Dad kept up with what was available. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Mm-hm. How about news? Was there a newspaper, or how did you learn about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: There was. There was the Benton County Advocate came out once a week. In fact, I think I still have some copies of that somewhere. It was mostly local, of course. Somebody was entertaining a company from Wallace, Idaho or somewhere, or somebody was sick in the hospital. Ed Peddicord was the--as I remember, he was older than myself but younger than my parents, and he became the first postmaster when the Hanford project took over, and he was the postmaster for quite a few years before he retired from the Richmond Post Office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about the school that you went to. Where was the school? Any memories you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Okay, there were, in the downtown area of Richland, the--I'm trying to relate it to--the grade school went from grade one through grade eight. And it was two story with four classrooms on the bottom and four on the upper level. I think they had electric lights, as I remember. The floors were wood floors, and they treated them with oil before school was started and at Christmas vacation. So when you came back from school--they'd wipe them up, the oil--they'd treat the wood floors. They'd wipe up the oil before classes started, but there would still be all these spots left on it. And so we had to take our shoes off when we came home at night because we would track oil, that oil. That was just for a few weeks or for a week or two. And the stoves had a jacket around. Of course they were--I believe they were coal stove--they that coal. And there would be a jacket around, a metal jacket around the outside to it, a couple of feet from the stove itself so the kids couldn't get up and get burned. But the jacket that surrounded them was probably three or four feet high, metal jacket. And we would—I remember hanging our white gloves things on that metal jacket to dry them out. And that was in the back of the room of course. That was your heat in the classroom. As I said, the bathrooms for boys and girls, most of them separate of course, were outside where you went out to the bathroom. And I don't recall any running water or anything in the—The other, the high school was, it wasn't torn down when the project started, Hanford project, right away. And it was built more--it had indoor bathrooms, was more up-to-date, more than the grade school, four levels. There are pictures of it in my booklet. So that was quite a step up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Do you remember any of the teachers from either school, or do you have any favorite teachers from that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Oh yeah. I remember most of my teachers. My first grade teacher, Ms. Randolph, older lady. And she was very good. I can remember putting our mittens up around that canopy around the stove in the wintertime, put your mittens up to dry. And I can't offhand remember, but I can visualize most of my teachers. There was Mrs.--Miss Mallory--she was single then. Taught me in fourth grade. And there was Bill Rader, our eighth grade teacher. Kind of he was a pretty good disciplinarian. If people got out of line, he had a paddle that he didn't mind using. There was--I can't think of the names, really, offhand. And then of course, in the high school I remember more of the teachers that I had. The superintendent, he also taught a few classes in, because the grade school had one class of every grade level. I started in the first grade, I was five years old, and I became six in November. And the kids that I started with, about half of the 20--I think there were 20 in my graduating class--about half of them were the ones I started in first grade with. That's how permanent the group was. There was a lot of permanency. And we moved onto this--where each grade you had the same ones, you knew the people. There would be two or three changes each year. And like I said, of those 20 or so that started, probably about half of those in my high school class were the ones I started first grade with. And so we knew each other very well. And the others I'd known quite well, too. My wife, she came later and joined when she was in about seventh or eighth grade I think, and she graduated two--I graduated in 1940 and she graduated in 1942. And in my graduating class there was 20, and hers there was only 12. I don't know why particularly. The high school, it was in freshman year you usually took Typing and it pretty well diversified. History classes, English classes. I can remember the teachers, Mrs. Deighton and Mrs. Carmichael. She's the one that got very emotional when the kids acted up and would carry on. Mr. Carmichael was the superintendent, and Mr. Whitehead, rather. We had basketball teams. We played against--Kennewick and Pasco were out of our league. They were from too big a town. So we played Benton City. I played--even though I'm pretty short, I was on the basketball team. We didn't have a football team. We weren't big enough. [LAUGHTER] The high school was only--with four classes, probably only 80 students altogether. And so I was on the basketball team the last couple years anyway. And we would go up to--Hanford was about 20 miles upriver, and White Bluffs. They were a comparative size. And to Benton City, and also to Finley. We used to call it Riverview then. It was a comparative size to what we were in Richland at that time. So we had a group that we played softball league and basketball. No football that I can remember. We weren't big enough to be in that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: And did you take a school bus to get to and from school then, or how did you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yes. We had--as I said, Art Hackney had a school bus that they owned their own school bus. They had a contract with the district. And there's a picture of myself and my two sisters in that booklet I gave you, waiting for the bus and there's a picture of the bus. It was kind of a--it looks kind of obsolete now, but that was the way they did things then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So you graduated high school in 1940. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: 1940. Then I went off to Cheney for a year. And decided I wanted to--didn't want to continue there. I wanted to--I thought I wanted to be an engineer, but I didn't have really the background from the school. At least I could blame it on that. So I transferred to Pullman in my sophomore year. And during beginning of my junior year, I was taken in--I was in the ROTC and we signed up for deferment or whatever you call it, but they said we could finish out the year we were in during my sophomore year. No, it must have been my junior year. That’s the third year. But it turned out that they couldn't—they took us, they drafted us and I think it was about January of my junior year in Pullman, from WSU. And at that time I was a member of Sigma Chi. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So was that January of 1943 then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: At some point that year, of course the Federal government started constructing the Hanford site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Right. I came home before--they allowed us, when they called up the ROTC, fellas in Pullman, they gave us a couple weeks to come home and see our folks. So I came home, it must have been the end of January of 1943. And saw my folks, and said goodbye to my sweetheart, Betty Kinsey was her name--became my wife. And after I went back then, I went back to Pullman, and they took us shortly by train from Pullman over to Fort Lewis. And it was an old, real old train that I mention in my booklet that looked like it was one from the pioneer days. There was a--I don't need to go into all the detail, but there was a coal-burning stove in the end of this railway car for heat, and we went over there in the first of February to Fort Lewis. We were not in the army until they took us over there and were forced in it at Fort Lewis. And shortly after that, I got word from my folks that the word had come out that Hanford and White Bluffs and even Richland, it was all going to be taken over by the government for this Hanford project. And that was in, I believe they got word in late February. And the people up at Hanford, which is, of course, is where the actual reactors were, were notified and given about 30 days to evacuate. And my folks, of course, we lived--my dad was the manager of the irrigation district at that time, of the Richland irrigation district. And they had more time because that was where the workers were going to live. But in the meantime they built Camp Hanford out here where we are sitting about right now, and maybe just a little further north. And you probably have the history of Camp Hanford and all that. But anyway, they were allowed to stay I think about six months, whereas the others further up where the reactors were being built, they had to get out quick. And so my folks looked around. They bought a place. My dad, by that time, they offered some of the people work. Most of them were farmers and they wanted to continue farming. And that was my dad. He, by that time, the kids were gone. I was the youngest. The other two, my sisters, were married and off and living on their own. So he decided he'd go back to farming, and they offered him a job to see to some of the irrigation, the way it was continued. But he decided he didn't want to do that. And a number of people did take jobs here for temporary. So where was I now? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So your family had six months you said after they were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, about six months. They found a place in Kennewick then, and my dad then bought some place and he put in a fruit orchard over on what became Blossom Hill in Kennewick. And we took over the old house. When I got out of the Army--I told you about that in my booklet here, that we took over their house, the two-story house that was on what's now where Denny's is at the corner of Kennewick Avenue and the Umatilla Highway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were given for their-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: In those days, at that time, the government was not as benevolent in their takeover of land. And they did not really offer what the land was worth. So my folks, my dad was one of the leaders of the group that took them to court over the offer. And this lingered on for quite a while, because my dad was one of the--as a manager of the irrigation district. And John Dam that the park is named after, and two or three others, they figured that they were being offered what the land had sold for in Depression days, which had just been more or less begun to get over in 1943. And my folks and others were beginning to feel established, that here they'd worked most of their working lives for 12, 15 years getting to where they felt like they were established and could make a good living. And now they were being offered this, where they had to leave relatively quickly. And not being offered enough to buy something comparable in other areas, where they found they had to pay more than what they had been offered. So this went to court and drug on for a while. They did get a settlement that my dad was involved in. But it took quite a while and it still did not--they were not too happy about it. I'll put it that way. But anyway, they got over it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: And so you heard about this happening when you were at Fort Lewis? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Yeah, I was still in the service. I was sent from there to Camp Roberts for infantry training. And I was there until June. See, this happened--I was taken in up in February I guess it was, and we had 13 weeks, almost four months, I think it was, of infantry training there in Camp Roberts in the desert in California. And then I was sent back to New York City. I had an opportunity--then they took some people to specialized training or a specialized training program called ASTP and I was able to get into that because of my college background and I passed some tests, I guess, and so forth. And so I was back there at the time and at Camp Roberts in California at the time that all this took place in Richland, and their dislocation and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Do you remember what you thought at the time when you found out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: [LAUGHTER] What I thought about that? About all this happening you mean? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Well, so much was happening, you didn't have time to think too much about it. Because I was involved in the training and we were kept busy night and day pretty much, and then the infantry training camp and being back there. But I heard about it. They kept me up on it, and there wasn't much you could do about it, and neither could they, because that was it. You could appeal, but that was a long process, the appeal was. So they just took a time to get over it. They got over it eventually. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Are there any events or things from your childhood growing up in Richland that sort of stand out? Special memories that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Probably quite a few things. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: A number of things I mention in his booklet that I gave you. One thing I particularly remember as a kid was I had this pony, and my neighbor kids had ponies too, or else work horses that did the job. And so we could roam around quite a bit. We had a lot of freedom. We all had rifles. We went out hunting. And the jackrabbits were quite numerous, I remember. Going just about a mile from where we are now, there was a sand hill over here off of Stevens Drive, which we called Pole Line Drive. Those days there was a sand hill over there. And there was an irrigation ditch that ran along this sand hill. And we'd go in and the boys--take our clothes off and we'd swim in this irrigation canal. There was a flume there, too, and that was kind of an interesting thing to go through. And we would take our rifles, and there was one farm that was close to this sand hill called--I'm trying to remember the name now, Sam's. Anyway, he had a--his farm was right adjacent to the open sagebrush land and sand hill. And if you were there in the evening--he had an alfalfa field right along the edge of this sort of a desert area. At certain times in the dusk, there'd be whole bunches of jackrabbits would come in. I remember we would go there with our rifles, and my friends, Dan Barnett and Richard Hackney and I, and we'd wait for dusk. And you could shoot these rabbits. And of course Mr. Sandberg I think his name- yeah, Sandberg was his name, he welcomed anybody that would get rid of the jackrabbits for him because they were destroying his alfalfa field. And so we'd shoot a bunch of jackrabbits. And they did have jackrabbit drives once in a while, and they had pictures of them. I might have some in some of my folks' stuff. But anyway, we had ponies or horses and we'd go out, and sometimes we'd go up the river from here, Dan Barnett and Richard Hackney and I. And as I said, I had a pony that had been caught on the open range and he could outrun practically any horse around. We would go up there and we'd camp out for a day and we would find some old prospectors up there. They would be panning for gold. And I don’t think, from the looks of them that they found very much, but they were interesting characters that'd tell you stories about their life. And we kind of envied them a little bit, but nobody wanted to do what they were doing. Anyway, then we would go up there and we'd camp overnight. Other times, we would go up there--I said that my folks and the Barnetts and the Hackneys had-- we had a boom in the river. We'd catch driftwood coming down for our--did I tell you about this before? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: No, okay. If I ramble, tell me. We'd go up, my folks or my dad and the other men, we would have wagons--we'd hook the work horses to the wagons. And we'd take enough food to last a couple days. And us boys would go along, and some other boys were old enough to help, and some of us were too young to do much, but to tag along and have a good time. And we'd go up there and we'd set up a camp, and the men would have a log boom up there. They'd attach logs to each other and run them out into the water. And when the water would rise in the spring, it would lift these drift logs from upstream, clear up around where Grand Cooley is now, before Grand Cooley was built and any other dams. And these drift logs would drift down, if you had a log boom out you'd catch them, as the water would--the high water from the snow melt. And if your log boom was out far enough, you'd get a whole bunch of logs in there and that would be--which then we'd go up and the men would take their team of horses and use their chains to pull these logs out of the water that had been caught in the log boom. And then they'd have to cut them up enough to put on their wagons to haul them down home. And this would take two or three days to do. In the meantime, us kids, the younger ones, we'd have a great time with shooting rabbits and doing some fishing off what was left of the log boom. And fixing our hot dogs over the campfire. It was quite an experience. And we all wanted to go. I think the girls envied us. They couldn't go. I don't remember any of the women going. But when they got the wagons loaded, they had them all--I remember they had sideboards on them, so that they would be loaded up to the maximum. And of course the roads weren't too good. The horses would be really worn out by the time we got these loads down to where we lived. And we'd have to wash them off, rinsing the horses off with a hose because they'd be all that, and it would be quite late in the evening before we made it home. So that was quite a big event in our lives, and especially for the young fellas like us, we thought that was great. I'm sure the men folks were glad it was over. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: So we had quite a few trips where we went out. I had a friend, Scotty who lived out in Yakima River, and I would go over--he was the one that I think I told you about the time that--maybe it was in my booklet. About the time that our well--the well that we dug up on the top of the hill, the 60 foot well, it had been real cold that winter, and usually the well didn't freeze, but it froze that winter. And so Scotty, my friend, he was the adventurer more so than I was. He said, oh, I can go take a blowtorch down there and thaw it out. Well, he did. My dad led him down this well. The well was hand dug and it was only about so big around. And there were iron steps put in the cement as they went down. As I said, it was 60 feet deep. Of course the water stood up in it about 20 feet or so. It would fluctuate. So Scotty went down with a blowtorch to thaw this pipe out because it had frozen the pump. And he got down there and I guess the confines of the gas or something, it exploded, and he was lucky he wasn't killed. He made it. Somehow it went upward rather than downward and he was able to get out. But his face was black and his eyebrows were singed off. And he was quite a mess from that occasion, but he didn't have to be hospitalized. They put cream on his face and I don't remember whether they got the pipe thawed out or not. I don't think so. I think it took a few days before it got the water up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So if someone was to ask you what it was like to grow up in a community like Richland, how would you respond to that? What would you say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: It was an interesting place to grow up because you were involved in all the activities. You were important as a member of the family. There were chores to do. You also had interesting experiences. You had time to play with your neighbors and develop your own activities and sports to a great extent. I guess probably I look back on it more with rose-colored glasses than it actually was, because I'm sure it was harder for the adults, too. Because it was kind of touch and go for them many times. There was no WPA or relief organizations. People helped their neighbors out when they needed it. I can remember a family that lived not too far from us. The man, the husband died, and they had some fairly young children, the Fraziers. And the wife was left with these--I forgot how young they were--two or three youngsters, and their small farm. And the people of the community just helped out. There was no other organization that they knew of. And later, Bruce Frasier who was in that family, who was about my age. He wasn't a classmate, but he told me years later at the reunions we used to have, he said, did you know-- [EMOTIONAL] did you know how much help your mom and dad did--I'm sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: It's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: How much help your mom and dad gave my folks. And I said I had no idea. He told me that my dad and mother, and others--he said it wasn't just them. But they're the ones that made it possible for him to survive. And this, they didn't talk about it at all. Excuse me, cut it off a minute? Wipe my eyes here. I'm glad to get this opportunity. Don't take me wrong. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: That’s all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I am glad to get the opportunity to talk. There's not too many people who want to listen to it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Can I have a little drink? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Sure. I think we're just about finished anyway. I think we've covered a lot of the things that I wanted to cover. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: So I guess is there anything else that we haven't covered that would be important to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I think we've covered everything pretty well. I've probably gone side-tracked a lot. And it was a role in that community, as I said, that they did help each other out in many ways. And that they're very independent, too. And there aren't too many of us left. We still get to have a reunion. We did-- it's getting down to where there aren't very many of us left. Last year we met at the Old Country Buffet and I had a good time. I think there may have been about 20 of us. But about half of them were descendants, children that brought their parents, who needed help to get there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Oh, okay. So this is a reunion of people from Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: The old time Richland, yeah, they lived in old time Richland. There's another-- the Deranleau, Ray Deranleau, he was quite a storyteller, he still lives here, and he was just a year or two younger than myself. And Alice Perkins is his wife, Alice Perkins-Deranleau. And I kind of think he'd be in the phone book. If not— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: And Price Colley. George Colley his name was, but there's a Colley family that he was there last year, and he's quite a storyteller. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] About what time of year do you usually get together? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Usually in the middle of September. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Middle to late September. Edith--I used to be the one that was in charge of getting the literature out and the reunions set up. Anyway, Edith Wiedle-Hansen, H-A-N-S-E-N, is the one that is doing it now. She was in my wife's class two or three years behind me in graduating from high school. And she's still here. I could maybe give you some more information on that later, if you wanted to call me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I don't know, if you have trouble. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: I just want to thank you very much for coming in today and being willing-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: I enjoyed it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: --to have me asking questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Fletcher: Okay. I hope that some of it’s good use. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX24634405"> Bauman: You've been very helpful. Thank you very much. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:22:15 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1922-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Hess, Morton Dam, John Nelson, Victor Supplee, Sam Barnett, Dan Pentabaker, Josh Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 Peddicord, Ed Hackney, Art Hackney, Richard Kinsey, Betty Frasier, Bruce Ray Deranleau George Colley Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 171 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Fletcher Description An account of the resource An interview with Robert Fletcher conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/20/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-25: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Hunting Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Facc731c5a9eac023b2b39579d02a6d5a.jpg 66652e9837d55e920d43539024b709a9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F427796f012ecab479d8a74d099f98483.mp4 66caf5583bbb52ba26c7f7cb60a15e08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Finley, Catherine Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Finley_Catherine Robert Bauman: You ready? Ready to get started? Catherine Finley: I guess. Bauman: Okay. My name is Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Catherine Borden Finley. And today is July 9, 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Catherine Finley about her family's history and about her memories and experiences growing up in White Bluffs. And so maybe we should start. I'll ask you about your family, if you could tell me how and why or when your family came to the area, the White Bluffs area. Finley: My father, Archie Borden, was born in White Bluffs. And his mother and his father, George Borden, come down from Priest Rapids some way. His father was a government surveyor. And he come down the river and settled in White Bluffs. And Grandma Pete came from Ellensburg. Her grandma [INAUDIBLE]. And they married, and they had the three sons. George Borden made a living by running horses between the river and Gable Mountain, and the army bought them. So let's see. And he drowned in the river when my dad was eight years old in 1906. Bauman: And-- Finley: Pardon? Bauman: He operated the ferry at White Bluffs? Finley: Yes. Bauman: In addition to running the horses. Finley: George Borden also owned the ferry, and he had land. He was quite successful for that time. And my mother, she come from South Dakota. And I don't know why they made it up in White Bluffs. But they were married in 1927. Bauman: And what was your mother's family's name? Finley: Shanahan. And they had the seven children. And the oldest one just passed away last year. So there's still six of us left. And one of dad's brothers had three children. And we had lots of cousins and not too close together. It was quite sparsely settled, because of the orchards and pastures and things like that. We lived about two miles north of White Bluffs. And we just grew up. We had all sorts of things to do. We had all the animals for pets. Bauman: What kind of animals did you have? Finley: Oh, we had horses and cows and sheep and dogs and cats and lots of little banty chickens, which we packed every place. The sheep my dad kept on Locke’s Island and brought them over in the winter so they would lamb on the mainland. The cattle, the cows, stayed on the home place. We rode the cows. [LAUGHTER] I don't know if Dad ever knew that, but we did. [LAUGHTER] And now we also had horses that we rode. And that was not the main entertainment that we had or what kids do, but we spent many hours on the horses and playing with the other animals. And the neighbor kids migrated even though it was like a mile or more to the place, and we had the cousins to play with. And we played with the Indian children when they'd come in twice a year to fish, Johnny and his--I don't know how many. I think there was four or five men in the crew and their wives. And they were great playmates, those Indian boys were. Bauman: What time of year would that have been? Finley: They'd come in the spring for the spring salmon run. And they’d come back in the fall for the fall salmon run. And they dried their fish on long racks on the river, on the bar. And their horses were then turned loose on the bar with everybody else's. So we had a lot of fun with them. I think they're gone now. Bauman: And about how long would they stay in the area during the spring? Finley: They were there probably like a month, maybe a little longer, whenever the salmon run was that year. And they always had racks and racks of salmon. So it must have been very good fishing. And they fished at night. They had their canoes that they stored in dugout cellars and little wire pots. And they put hot coals in them or burned something, and anyway put them over the canoe, and the fish would come to the light. And they'd dip them. And then they'd bring them all in in the morning, and then the women proceeded to process them. [LAUGHTER] But it was interesting and a lot of fun. And we learned a lot from them. And Johnny was very, very interesting. He was the chief of the--they were Wanapum Indians. And then at the end of the season, then they would go either--sometimes they went on to the Yakima. Apparently they caught another type of fish there, down here at the Horn's Rapid Dam. Otherwise, they went back up to Priest Rapids and lived in their teepees until the dam was built. And they still lived in their teepees. They parked the car in the living room at the house that was built. And as I say, it was very interesting. And then when they closed it all, they went to the Yakima Reservation, or to Toppenish. But we played with--there was many different nationalities of children there, and we not only went to school with them, they were always welcome at home. And we were just as welcome in their home. Bauman: Do you remember any of the neighbor families or children? Finley: Oh, yeah, there was Johnson. They didn't have any children. They had a nice dairy. And Killians was a German family. Supplee was a German family. Walkers was a French family. I don't remember what the Goodners were. But they were all very successful in fruit. My dad didn't have any fruit, but he traded sheep for fruit, bartered. And we were very fortunate all during the Depression that that's what happened. So we were never hungry. We didn’t really know--I imagine the folks knew what the Depression was. Us kids didn't. We never had bought toys that I remember. My dad would carve things out of wood, out of mostly bark that come down the river, I don’t know, boats and mangers and whatever happened to be handy. But we could always go down on the bar with him--we never were allowed to go to the river by ourselves--and pick up odd driftwood. And we made animals out of them for some reason and rocks. Rocks made wonderful trucks and cars and just any old thing—corrals to keep all these stick animals in. And we went to school in a four-room schoolhouse. It was a large white building, divided in four rooms. And that was about a little over a mile from where we lived. So in the spring and in the fall when it was still warm, we walked to school. And Mr. Anderson, the school bus driver, would pick us up during the winter when it was cold. And he was a father of Harry Anderson that was quite active in the White Bluffs picnic when it was here. Bauman: Do you remember any of your teachers from the school? Finley: Yes, Mrs. Moody. Mrs. Moody, I remember her well. She taught kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, and sometimes fourth grade, depending on how many children were present. And then my second teacher I had there was a Ms. Smit. And she taught the fourth, depending on who had the most room in the classroom, and fifth and sixth. And the seventh and eighth graders got to go upstairs. They were special. They were really big folks. But then when the government come in, the last year they held school we went for six days a week so we could get the time in because the letters come in early spring, like in February, and not knowing when they would close or however they were going to work it, so we were out of school the first part of May. Bauman: So you went an extra day to make up for the-- Finley: Yeah, to make up for the school days that we wouldn't be able to go to school. Bauman: So how old were you at the time, then? Finley: I was in the--hm, gotta think. Fifth grade when they closed the school. I was a year older because I liked one grade real well. And the sixth grade I spent in Hanford. And then the folks moved and we went to Benton City. But it was fun. It was interesting, like I said. Sometimes I kind of feel sorry for kids that have so much that they didn't have to work for. They weren’t, you know, not denied--but we didn't know we were being denied anything. We didn't know we were supposed to be poor. [LAUGHTER] Or that he didn't have a car. Dad had a car, but he never used it. He rode one of the horses into work. It was just easier, and he could sleep coming home because the horse would come home. Bauman: Did you place have electricity at all? Finley: Oh, yes, we had electricity. We had indoor plumbing, until the government moved in and they cut it all off. I mean the plumbing and the water, stopped all the wells and brought our water out to us in 250-gallon wooden barrels every day. In the summer they'd put ice in them so it would be cold. Winter, they'd chip the ice off. Oh, and put us up a nice, new toilet. We really thought that was--an outside toilet with a moon and a star. Now, why that impressed kids, I don't know. But it did. Bauman: What about a telephone? Did you have a telephone? Finley: Oh, yeah, we had phones. My grandfather, Grandpa Shanahan, Mama's father, worked for the telephone company, Wilkerson and Brown out of Kennewick, had the telephone company. And then of course, when the government come in, the government had it. My dad was a refrigeration engineer. He made ice for the railroad. And in the summer, they would bring their fruit cars down, and he would pack each end of the car with ice. And they put all their produce and food in the center. And as long as it was moving, there were fans moving in it, and it kept it cold. And that railroad went back to Othello, and the Milwaukee line picked them up. Bauman: Okay. Finley: But we got to go on the train. We got to ride in the caboose. If we wanted to go to Seattle, we rode in the caboose. And the brakie took care of us, no trouble at all. Mom would just put us on the train, and by that time, my grandparents had moved to Seattle. And he'd go down to King's Station and take us off, and then put us back on when our visit was over, and we'd come back. Bauman: Did you get to do that very often? Finley: We done it probably twice a year. Sometimes we stayed longer. Sometimes it was just a short time. Bauman: Now, how big was your property? Finley: I really don't know. We didn't have a large place. The most I think, other than orchard, I think most of the land was kind of leased, because the island, he owned. And the government bought that. But I don't know how much land they had on the mainland. It seemed like an awful lot once in a while. Bauman: And so in addition to the house that was on your property, were there other buildings on the property as well? Finley: On the last house we lived in, yes, there was a barn, and there was this two-story house. And there was a large barn and the chicken coop and whatever buildings that would be on a farm. On the other one, there was a barn and a chicken coop. And they called them soldier tracks at that time because they were built for the men coming back from World War I. And there was a house and a barn a chicken coop and a nice, new toilet. That always seemed to be very important. And, well, it wasn't occupied then. Some other person could lease it for the land. I don't know how many acres were in even those places. But in one of Dad's places, it was up, and then there was a flat, and then it dropped on down to the river, to the river bar. And there was a lot of land in that place, as I remember. It looked like a lot of land to a kid. Bauman: Now again, how many siblings did you have, how many brothers and sisters? Finley: Seven. I have one brother, and I had five sisters. Bauman: And were you all born in White Bluffs? Finley: Mm-hm. Teresa was the last one. She was born in '43, I think. Bauman: Okay. So we talked about the school. I was wondering about other community events or celebrations. Finley: Oh, they had the grange hall down in Old Town, which is where the ferry landed. That was where any big gathering was held. It was a bigger building. And we had a theater that run movies. Mr. Anderson, the school bus driver, he also run the theater. And I think he brought a show in probably like once a month for kids and adults. And there was a lot of little school plays. And the high school, there was always the high school. And there was always the ball games. So there was there was a lot to do, as I remember. Bauman: You mentioned that your father wouldn't let you go down to the river without him there, is that--? Finley: An adult had to be with us. Bauman: Did you ever go swimming in the river? Finley: Oh, yeah. We swam in the river. And he went back and forth across river all the time. He had a boat, and the river was part of living. But Mom always made sure that we didn't go down by ourselves. In the summertime when the water come up, it come up clear up almost over the whole bar. And it was very swift, because it went through, cut off like an island. There Barrett's Island. And the water flowed through that in the main island, and it was swift. And the river was quite narrow then, because there was no dams on it. And I think Dad always said it went at 12 miles an hour. And there were whirlpools that his dad drowned in, was a whirlpool. And so we were well watched. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Sure. Finley: And we played with the cows. Like I said, we had the cows we rode. Bauman: You mentioned taking the train to Seattle. Finley: Mm-hm. Bauman: Did you go to any of the other communities, Pasco or to [INAUDIBLE]? Finley: They would go to Yakima. And that's where I was born, and then they took me to White Bluffs. And I don't know why they went to Yakima, because that was about 60. And Pasco must have had the hospital by then. But they didn't have a bridge across it. So they had to ferry there. And I don't know why they didn't. Probably because Benton County wasn't a county at that time. There was a Yakima County, but no Benton County. And that's where they went, and Pasco. And we went to Walla Walla and Prosser, of course. Then by the time I was born, that was a county, so then all the business had to be tended there. Bauman: We talked a little bit about when the government came in 1943 and the impact it had on the school and the school days, an extra day. I was wondering what memories you have of that. What response did your parents have to being told that they had to leave? Finley: It was very hard for my dad. Because he had lived there his life. And I think one thing that was bad, they just come in and took the property and said, the next letter, you have 10 days to leave. And nobody knew when that 10 days was there. Some of them got their letters very early. My mom and dad didn't get theirs until they closed the plant. Nobody could go into it. But the fruit farmers had to leave their crops on their trees. And that was very hard on them, and no future, no money, cash in hand, like that they could go out and buy another place. And most of them had just been farmers, so they were spread all over. I mean, they moved wherever they could get a place to live. And it was hard on them. My dad sold sheep and sold most of the cattle, kept a couple of the horses. And he moved to Benton City in '44, I think, we moved there finally. But he worked there. He kept his job there as making ice. Bauman: Okay. Finley: Though the train didn't use it for that purpose or transporting food. DuPont used it for the summer months. They had huge, large holes in the ground. They just dug down in rock and covered it with sawdust, put sawdust in it. And you covered it with plastic and put ice in it, and then covered it again. And then in the summer when the plant couldn't produce enough ice for their needs, they dug that up or uncovered it and took it out, it was just like when they put it in there. We watched him do that, going back and forth to Hanford on the bus. Because the bus ran parallel of where they were building this vast hole in the ground. And that was very interesting. Because no kid could understand what they were doing. And at the same part, they were building F area. So we watched that, what you could see of it. You never knew if you were going to get home at night on the school bus for fear they’d dug a trench across the road. Bauman: You actually stayed there. You were there for several months after they started constructing-- Finley: Yes, oh, yeah, we were there probably a year and a half after--no, we were there longer than that after we got the letter. Like I said, we were the very last ones out there. We left and the gate was--the civilians couldn't go back in then, just the workmen. They had taken out all of Camp Hanford. And all of the construction work was done, or finishing work on the plants that they had started to build. After we left, they built some more. They put H in right down where we lived, tore down everything. They tore down—they put bulldozers through most of the buildings out there, probably to prevent coyotes and rats and whatever else from occupying them. Bauman: Do you remember what you were told about what was being done out there? Finley: As I remember the letter, it just said that on such-and-such a day, your land was taken by the government. And no, nobody knew what was going on. And that caused a lot of hard feelings, because they had their share of boys that went to the service. And they weren't allowed back in to see their parents who were working there. Like the Gilhulys, they had the garage. They run the garage. And all of the town people that had businesses, if they had a boy, the boy couldn't come back, which made a lot of hard feelings. And there again, as I said, they took everything, or changed all the housing. They put many families in--they would put two families to a home if there was enough room for two bedrooms, because there was no housing for all of these thousands of people coming in. And we didn't have to share our house, but any house that had been vacated, that's how they utilized them and took down the outbuildings of any barns or sheds or things like that. They were very nice people, the ones that come in. We got to know a lot of them, being kids. It was DuPont that come and took our house. We weren't happy about that. Bauman: The families that you got to know who came, were they from all over the place? Finley: Oh, yeah, one family was from Alabama. One was from Louisiana. One was from Boston. And I can remember us kids talking and laughing. We'd laugh at them, because they talked different from us. And we talked different from them to them, too. [LAUGHTER] But they were all nice people. Bauman: And you mentioned that your father owned the island? Finley: Yes, mm-hm. Bauman: And he sold that? Finley: The government bought that. Bauman: The government bought it from him. Do you know how much money he received for that? Finley: No, it wasn’t--I don't know how much they got. First they leased it, and when they knew that it was going to be--I guess; I don't have any other reason--a longer span of time, they bought the island and turned it over to, I think, Fish and Wildlife habitat. It's still there. He was very proud of that island because there was a large Indian cemetery on it. And he guarded that with his life to keep it from being dug. And several times during the night, he'd go. If he saw a bonfire over there, he'd go down to the river and row across it and get them off the island. And also, so they wouldn't set it afire. But he guarded that cemetery with his eye teeth. Bauman: I just want to go back to the community itself a little bit again. You talked a little bit about the grange, was it? Finley: The grange, mm-hm. Bauman: And school. Were there churches that were nearby? Finley: Oh, yes. There was a Methodist church and a Presbyterian church, a Catholic church. But there was many different religions. There was Seventh Day Adventists. In 1937 I believe it was--I'm not sure about the dates, they brought--and I don't even know how many. I think there was something like 13 families of Mormons in, which was kind of sad. Because they brought them in in August, and they had no time to put wood in or gather wood or canned--only what they could bring. And it was a very long, cold winter. And they did suffer. I mean, us kids thought, oh, they must have been poor. [LAUGHTER] Because they didn't have wood. I can remember my dad going and getting a couple of the men, and we had a flume in the river, which in high water caught all the logs and everything coming down the river. And he took them down there and told him to get what wood they needed to keep from freezing. And that winter, as I said, was very, very cold. And it was a very long winter. It was just kind of unfortunate. Bauman: Were those families able to stay on? Finley: Oh, yeah. They, come the next spring, they planted their gardens like everybody else did and went to work for one of the fruit farmers. And most of them didn't leave until the government come in. They were very nice people. Bauman: The town itself, I was going to ask you, are there any--you mentioned there was a theater. Were there any businesses that you remember at the time? Finley: Oh, yeah, on one side of the street there was a barber shop and drugstore and a grocery store. And the hotel burned down. I don't know when, but in the '30s, it burned. And then there was a bank and a tavern and a little park where they had the bands and things and a post office and a tavern. They had all the good things in life. A couple of gas stations, the train depot and a creamery, or where everybody took their cream in for the Twin City Creamery to come out and get. They picked it up. And I'm trying to think what else they had--and the coal storage. The coal storage I think was the largest building there. Well, the concrete part’s still standing. They didn't take down, but all around this--or on two sides if it, because one side was next to the railroad, there was packing sheds for fruit. And Dad just filled up huge canyons with ice to ship the fruit. There was a lumber yard there. Really, it was quite complete. And Hanford was also quite complete. They each had a ferry to get back and forth across the ferry. And then there was another ferry up the river, the Wahluke Ferry, which- I'm trying to think of where their end was. I think the Wahluke ended at Burke's Corners, up above the road. And it went to Ephrata. The White Bluffs Ferry went to Othello, the road. And the Hanford Ferry went out what is now the blocks. You could get to Ringgold and all in that area. And there was a road up down the other side of the river. It went from Uncle Matt's place, you could go up to Ringgold. Bauman: I think you mentioned earlier something about a baseball team, sports, I’m wondering about, for the schools. Finley: We had baseball teams. They had I think mainly basketball. I don't remember football. But there again, I wouldn't have been interested in that. But they always had music. They had bands. All three of the towns had bands. And yeah, because somebody told me they went to White Bluffs to play baseball one time. So they must have had a team. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: When you mentioned that when your family did leave, you moved to Benton City? Finley: Yes. Bauman: And did your father have sheep and cattle there again? Finley: No, we had a milk cow for a long time, and then we finally give that up. But we kept the horses. We always had horses. All us kids rode. He did, too. He was a really good horseman. But these weren't-- mostly just us kids' horses. And he just rented pasture for those. We didn't have any land for a long time. We had a building in town and a house, but we didn't have any land. Eventually, he did buy land. And part of the kids still live there. Three of my sisters still live there. Bauman: So you all grew up, spent the rest of your years [INAUDIBLE]. Finley: Yes, we all stayed together. I'm trying think. I think Veronica is the furthest one away, and she is in Goldendale, so she didn't get too far. One lives in Pendleton. My brother went to--was it Korea or Vietnam? Must have been Korea. That was in the '50s, yeah. And when he come back, he spent his time on different islands. Thank God he didn't--he joined the Navy, and he became a mechanic, an air mechanic. And they put him on the islands. He come back, went to school, went to college, got his degree in education and went back to the South Seas and taught there until he retired. And he's just younger than I am. He bought land and built himself a house up at Chesaw when he come back, which is up by Oroville, I think, and happy as a lark. Bauman: I was wondering what you think would be important for people to know about what it was like growing up in White Bluffs? What sort of a place it was. Finley: It was warm. It was a very warm community. The people were your friends. And they helped each other. If somebody needed something, somebody would either share or give or provide for them. And they didn't do it for--just because family needed it at that time. Or if one was sick, somebody was always available to take them to the hospital, which was either Pasco or Yakima. And I think it was just-- and to be happy. The people were happy. There weren't--not too many grouchy ones that I can remember. And to do with what you have. Don't want something more if you can't afford it, I guess, in this day and age. Just be happy with what you have, and work for something better. Bauman: There's one question I meant to ask you earlier that I'll ask you now, and that is the weather in the area. I know we get high winds and dust storms. Finley: Yes, there was high— Bauman: What about growing up? Did that impact your community at all? Finley: No. The ground wasn't tore up like it is now. So we didn't have the massive--I don't remember the dust storms, let me put it that way. We did have wind. And it was very cold in the winter and very hot in the summer. I mean, it was 120 and nobody thought anything about it. Very few shade trees. So it was hot, but you could always got get a pan of water. Mom used to--the wash tubs that they had then, she'd fill one every day and put it outside and us kids played in it. And I guess we were just used to it, because it didn't seem to bother us. And cold, as I said, the school bus took us to school in the winter because it was cold, and it was a mile or a little more to school. And there was no shelter, no nothing. You just were walking on sand. That's mostly what's out there. Bauman: Yeah. Do you remember the river ever freezing over at all? Finley: I don't. I don't remember it freezing. My dad would tell about the river freezing, and that's how they brought their sheep down. They kept them on--I don't know why they took them to the mountains, either, but they took them to pasture in the summer and then wait for the water to freeze to bring them over. And they lambed and sheared before the thaw so they could get them back across the river. Otherwise they had to ferry them or drag them clear down and put them across the bridge that they had then built between Pasco and Kennewick. And that was quite dangerous, he said, because they could only run so many sheep at a time. And it took a long time to put a band of sheep across. I can remember being--we had a cow that got down the outside one time, and she froze, instead of getting in the barn where she belonged. She was a young heifer, and she just didn't know, I guess. But people prepared for it. They knew it was going to be cold. It got cold early in the year. And it stayed that way until March or April. Now, the river didn't stay froze that long. It was just cold. But it wasn't cold enough to keep that river frozen. But they took the horse and everything else across it. I mean, he remembers it. But I remember the freezing out quite far from the bank, but not freezing across where they could put animals on it. Bauman: Right. Is there anything I haven't asked you about or any family stories or special memories that stand out that-- Finley: [LAUGHTER] What kids do for entertainment? Bauman: Sure. [LAUGHTER] Finley: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] We had this real nice family down the road a ways, and they had a mule. That was one of those poor Mormons that didn't know what they were getting into. And they had two boys. And Delores and I decided one day that we would put the mule harness on a horse. We did not know that there was the difference in them. There is. So we took Dolly, the horse, and took her up on the little knoll and hooked her to this wagon. I don't know where us kids got the wagon. Somebody gave it to us. And hooked the horse. We didn't know you were supposed to have shafts or something on this to stop this wagon. Well, she went to barn with this wagon bumping her all the time in the back end. And Dad came out and was quite upset because we had knocked the door off the barn. So we went in. We took Dolly, took her back out to the pasture. And we thought, well, now we've done that, and that was because it was too steep. That hill was too steep. So Mom and Dad had to go to Yakima. And us kids stayed at home, because there was nothing, nobody there to harm us. You know? [LAUGHTER] And we left Randall, my brother. We took this cow, Dolly, and put this mule harness on her. I don't know how. [LAUGHTER] And took her up about a quarter of a mile from the place through an old cut down apple orchard. And when we waved our hands and dropped them down, Randall was supposed to sic the dog on the calf in the barn. Well, Delores didn't make it to the wagon. She put me in first, and that cow went home. When we got home, the wagon did not survive it. And Dad couldn't figure out what was wrong with old Dolly that night. She was so touchy when he went to milk her. [LAUGHTER] We didn't try that again. But there was always two of us, so if one got in trouble, we could share it. One time we took the sheep who were over still on the mainland. And he had a nasty, nasty buck, but he produced good lambs. And there again, we were warned, you don't get in that corral with that buck. Because he actually could have killed a kid, I imagine, if he’d, you know. And Delores and I figured and figured if we got two ropes on him, we could tie him to two different posts in the corral. And then we could ride him. This is a big sucker, nice long wool and everything he had. And we did. Well, finally we wore—anyway, we rode that poor, old buck ‘til he just laid down. And Dad couldn't figure out what was--his name was George-- couldn't figure out what was wrong with George that night, because he just didn't want to eat anything. We never told him until we were grown--and I guess we were both married by that time—what happened to George. Bauman: Figured it was safe to tell him then. Finley: He just looked at us and he said, well, that's probably only one of the things you done that I didn't know about, sweetheart. [LAUGHTER] But we created our own fun. And to us, it was not mean or cruel or mischievous, because we knew the cow wouldn't die. She was too ornery. And we finally broke Dolly to ride with a saddle, so that was a little safer, too. We just had fun and grew up. And I don't know what else we done. Spent 13, 14 years there. I must have done something more. We worked hard in the summer. I remember that. Because Mom had to can. She canned the fruit. If somebody butchered--it always surprised me that if somebody in the community butchered, and they had too much meat, then it was spread out. Because there was no way of keeping it. And neighbors got along well that way. Bauman: So what sorts of work or chores did you do as a young child growing up? What sorts of things did you help out with? Finley: Oh heck, I could cook a meal by the time I was in the third grade. I learned to make bread, canned. We all canned. That was a whole family project. It wasn't just one person there, because it all had to be done on a cook stove. And somebody had to bring in wood and peel fruit. It had to be continuous. And what else? I remember Mama canning meat one time--twice. And that had to be cooked for six hours. Because it was just a water bath. They didn't have pressure. Later on, I guess, there was pressure cookers. But that's how they cooked it, put it in a wash boiler. And I think it held 12 quarts, the wash boiler did. And they cooked it all day, all day long. And that stove had to be kept burning. So on that day also, if you were canning, you also made bread. Because the oven was hot. And it was busy. It was a busy time. And then in spring, they had to take care of the stock. And the fruit was a little bit earlier than what it is here. It was just like a week earlier. Of course, it ended a week earlier, too. But there was always tomatoes and Mom put up an awful lot of tomatoes and peaches. I can remember that. Bauman: So you grew a lot of your own-- Finley: Grandma Pete, my dad's mother, was a peach farmer. So they always had peaches. And she also grew a very large garden. Or they would go down to Ringgold and there was the Japanese family there that had a truck farm. You could always get your tomatoes there in quantity. Bauman: Do you remember what their name was? Finley: The name of the-- Bauman: Japanese family? Finley: No, I have no idea. We just went down there and they were wonderful gardeners. They had everything up off the ground. They planted the plants and then they put chicken wire mesh panels over it so that the tomato plant grew up through the mesh and all the tomatoes then were on the wire. They were never on the ground. I always thought that was amazing. And they had corn. They had all vegetables. I just remember the folks buying the cantaloupe and the tomatoes. But they had-- I imagine it was a good sized truck farm. It was to me then. But I don't actually how big it was. And there was always apples. And apricot trees grow wild almost, so there was always plenty of apricots and apples. There was somebody had apple trees that they couldn't use them up. And they just simply shared. They had too much, they shared. It really kind of spoiled people for today. There's a lot I can't understand about today, why people don't get along better. [LAUGHTER] But I'm trying to think what else us kids would do. We played on a pile of gravel. That was our mountain. White Bluffs was very flat. Because the bluffs surrounded the whole river. The river is on our side, but you know. And unless you went to Yakima, there's a very small opening between Rattlesnake and the Bluffs in reality, just enough for the river to flow through. It was quite flat and hot. So you could do most anything. You could swim in the irrigation ditch. Bauman: Where was the pile of gravel that you-- Finley: What? Bauman: Where was the pile of gravel that you played on? Finley: Oh, the pile of gravel? Well, I guess they were going to gravel the road. They never got it done because they just piled this big pile of gravel there across the road from us. Well, for a long time, there was a sign on it. I don't know what the sign said. But there was one on it. [LAUGHTER] But it was sloped on one side, and then you could jump off the steep side, see. Boy, oh boy, we'd run up and jump off and run up and jump off. Daddy come out and says, now you know, Joe's going to get after you for that. Well, Joe didn't see us, so I guess we thought we were safe. It's still out there today, but it isn't near as large as I thought it was. I've been out a couple of times while I worked there in the '50s. I worked out there and drove that same circuit. Bauman: What part of the site did you work at, what did you--? Finley: I worked out of 300. I delivered instruments to the areas. So I had to go to each area every day. And I've been there since then also, and the roads are still there if you know where you're going. You can get around pretty good. Now, they're not in top--some of them are still paved. Bauman: So how long did you work there, then? Finley: I worked out there two years. And then we had a family, and I didn't go back to work. Bauman: When is the last time you were out there? Finley: Oh, let's see. The White Bluffs picnic--I don't quite remember when it stopped. But every year, you could go out there if you went to the picnic. You could drive out there on one afternoon. I think it was Saturday afternoon. And you could go through town. You went through town, and down to the old ferry landing, down to Old Town. And then in later years, if you could, you could go to where your home was. If the roads were there. And I drove out a couple of times to where we lived, because we lived on the river. And the last time I went out, there was this fence and big concrete building there. I knew that's probably the last time I'd see the homestead. They had to build H. But that's all right. It was a good place to live, good place to grow up in. And you learned a lot of things that you didn't know you learned. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for being willing to come here and share your stories and your memories. Finley: They've really been terrific. I will try and get some pictures. Can I just call the number on the letter and just bring them in? Bauman: Absolutely, yeah, sure. Finley: Because we have them. I just don't know where in the world I've put them. We even have one of Johnny and Daddy, Johnny Buck, the Indian, the chief. He was quite old then. But he would take his kids and tell us in Indian--my dad could speak Indian, or that dialect of Indian. And he'd talk to us in Indian. We never bothered to learn. Isn't that sad? Bauman: Did your dad know that dialect from having spent a lot of time with them? Finley: Yes, he grew up there. Johnny, as a young man, worked for his father, George, and the horses. And I don't know, but then after George died, he still come and fished, his tribe. And Dad just grew up with him. They were always part of the neighborhood. You knew they were coming when the fish started to run. And then you watched for them. They had beautiful horses, or I thought, Delores and I thought. The other thing, he had a friend. He was in Yakima. He lived in Yakima. And he would come down. And him and Daddy would visit. And us kids would listen to the stories. And one day, he turned his hands over, and they were white. And I never realized that the man was black. We had no--there was no difference in people. This man was the tallest, blackest Negro. I've seen some from Africa lately that are more recent, but he was a delightful--he was an apple grower, had a large apple orchard in Yakima. And had he not turned those hands over, I, to this day, would have swore he was just like us. And I think that is one that is very important for kids, that there is no difference in people. They're all--the Indians looked the same to me. I don't remember what this man's name was, because he did. Or my mother's parents that were strict Irish. They looked the same. There was no--we even had a Filipino family in there. He was good. He raised raspberries. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: In White Bluffs? Finley: Yeah, in White Bluffs, yeah. He raised berries. Bauman: Do you happen to remember his name at all? Finley: His name was George--I can't remember his last name. He moved to Benton City. And they still bought berries from him. Bauman: He moved to Benton City after 1943, after the government-- Finley: Yeah, mm-hm. I remember a lot of people. I mean, Mrs. Barrett, her husband was one of the first railroad men out. He worked for the Union Pacific. And they lived at Wahluke at the time of the Walla Walla massacre. And she'd tell a story. I had a lot of opportunity to learn. And she was a sweet lady. She raised three boys and a daughter. I never remember her husband, but I remember her very, very well. And Russos was another--I don't know what nationality they were, but they all seemed to have something to do with fruit. And there was just a great, big mixture of all types of people and all getting along very, very well. Bauman: Well, thank you again. I really appreciate you coming in today to share your stories and memories. Thanks very much. Finley: Well, I thank you. And I hope it turns out halfway decent. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:05:20 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area F Area H Area Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950s Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Bordern, Archie Borden, George Anderson, Harry Buck, Johnny Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Catherine Finley Description An account of the resource An interview with Catherine Finley conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-7-9 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-6: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.)--History--20th century. 300 Area DuPont F Area Fishing H Area Horseback riding White Bluffs Bank (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F719bed6d9c78e658d30ce6ade9bfc7c0.jpg acc5bf4ce410efe91e79d5dd08bda57d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Feb7f32b54e254f6c381371d0ad4674d9.mp4 401431f21aed89f6ef6130d03341dd02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roop, Jane Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Roop_Betty_Jane Robert Bauman: Ready to go? All right. OK, we'll go ahead and start. Betty Jane Roop: Okay. Bauman: Let's start by having you say your name and spell it for us. Roop: Okay. My name is Betty Jane Roop. R-O-O-P is the last name. Bauman: Thank you. My name is Robert Bauman and today's date is July 22nd of 2014. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And you go by Jane. Roop: I go by Jane. Mm-hm. Bauman: So let's start, Jane, if you could talk about how and when your family arrived here in the Tri-Cities. What brought your family here? Roop: Okay. My dad ran away when he was about 13 years old, 14 years old and he ended up in the Roundhouse at Pasco. And eventually made his way back home, but always remembered this place. And so when he was out of the service for World War II, he decided we'd move here because there was work. And so we came in 1949 and lived here until the Army base closed down in North Richland in '56, '57. And so that's how we got here. Bauman: And how old were you at the time? Roop: I was about five. Bauman: And do you have any memories, or what are some of your earlier memories of the area? Roop: I guess the earliest memory was living in what's called old Navy housing in Pasco. That was kind of a community and I remember playing there as a kid. And then we lived there for a while. And then we move to the trailer court in North Richland and I started kindergarten there. And some of my earliest remembrances are how cold it was walking to school. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What was the trailer camp like? Could you describe that at all? Roop: Well, it was the largest trailer camp in the world and we were very proud of that. And it was just block after block of trailers. And there was approximately, oh, I don't know, let's see, 20 trailers on each side of a block and they were usually divided up, and there was a big bath house in the middle. Because at that time, a lot of the trailers didn't have washing machines or even bathrooms. So in the middle of that block was a big cement house, bathroom, wash room, and that kind of thing. And it was a wonderful place for kids to grow up. There were lots of kids around all the time and we would live very close and I remember it just being a very safe environment, especially during the summer when we would play until it was dark, and often hid in that bath house. Bauman: And what about the school? What was the school like? Roop: Well, at John Ball, it was a huge Quonset hut school. It had a long center part, kind of like a centipede. And then off of that long center part came the classrooms. And again, one of the things I remember as a kid is that you couldn't get in. And during the winter, you had to wait until the halls were open to get inside and it was very cold. And at that time, girls, you weren't allowed to were dresses—or pants. You had to sort of wear pants underneath your dress. So you would dress kind of double layer with a dress on top and the pants underneath because it was so cold and you had to wait outside to get in. But my first goal was to become a hall monitor so I could get in out of the cold. [LAUGHTER] And the younger, the first, second, third grades were on one end and the fourth, fifth, and sixth were on the other end. And it was a small school, a relatively small school. But I remember lots of fond memories of that school and I started kindergarten there and left in sixth grade when they closed it down. Bauman: And was it like K through eight, or do you know how-- Roop: I don't think we went through eighth grade. I think it only went through sixth. Bauman: Okay. Roop: Yeah. I'm pretty sure. It was just through sixth. And I think they went into Richland then, to one of the schools there. Bauman: So what sort of job did your father have then? Roop: He was first a teamster and worked loading, getting people to and from the site from a major--there was a huge bus center. In fact, I think it's still there to some extent. And he worked there as a teamster. And then after a few years, he took training and became a pipe fitter and was a pipe fitter out there until it closed down. Bauman: And where had you lived before this? Roop: We came from Oklahoma. My dad was in the Navy until, I think about after the war, '44, '45. He was stationed in Hawai’i. And after the war, we came out here, because it was a time of just finding work and it was a lot of work here. Bauman: And did you have any idea what sort of place Hanford was, what sort of work was being done at Hanford? Roop: You know, as a kid, what I remember most is all the kind of secrecy and the whispering. Like you didn't know what was really going on, but Rattlesnake Mountain to us kids was always a very mysterious place. Because it was like over there, there was something really big and scary. So I remember that being—because it dominates the landscape even today. And nobody really talked about their work, but you knew things were going on there that you couldn't talk about. Bauman: So you lived in the trailer camp from about 1950 or so? Roop: Yeah, it was about '50 to '56, '57, and there was a big Army base out there. And when they closed the Army base, they closed a lot of the trailers. It shrunk in size. So a lot of people moved from one part of the trailer court to another part if they were still employed. And so it kind of shrunk and it's mostly where Battelle is right now-- Bauman: Right. Right. Roop: --where that area where all the trailers were and the school and everything. Bauman: And what about your family then? What happened to your family? Roop: After they closed down, my dad worked, I think it was only less than a year and then he went back in the Navy. And from there then he went for training in Oklahoma, and then he went to the Philippines, and then we moved as a family to Midway Island, and then came back here. He got out of the Navy again in about '61, '60, I think it was, and then we came back here to this area and lived here pretty much ever since. Until my dad died, he lived here—1991. So we came back in about '60, '61 and he was here until he is death in '91. Bauman: And he came to work at Hanford? Roop: He didn't. He did for a while, and then he became an independent trucker, which was always his passion. Bauman: And so how old were you then when you came back? Roop: I was a junior in high school when we came back. So I left when I was in sixth grade and then came back when I was a junior. Bauman: And which high school did you go to then? Roop: Col High. Columbia High. I was a Bomber, still a Bomber. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And what was the community like when you came back and high school? Could you describe that? Roop: Well, when I came back, of course, North Richland was no longer here. And all those usual signs and maybe people have talked about this—well, where we're sitting now was an area where we did some hunting and bringing our dogs down next to the river. And then on the other side of the GW Way was a huge outdoor theater right below that hill. And all of these kind of landscape—that landscape was pretty much gone by then. And we moved into a smaller trailer court for a little while on Stevens Drive, right off of Stevens Drive. And then my dad did go—I think he might have returned to work for a little bit out at Hanford as a pipe fitter, but as soon as he kind of got himself organized, he bought a truck and started trucking in the area. Bauman: So going back then to your earlier childhood in North Richland, were there services there and in the trailer camp, grocery stores or something? Roop: Yes. Yes, there was. There was a theater that I remember very well, and it was actually on the Army base and almost everything was. There was a grocery store and I can't remember the name of it. There was a post office. There was a theater. There was a beautiful little park that we used to ride our bikes to that kind of looked at the grocery store. Maybe there was a block between or maybe a quarter mile, but a nice little park there. Bauman: Like a park with play equipment, sort of thing? Roop: Not play equipment, but trees and benches. Yeah. And we didn't really leave the area to do grocery shopping at all. If you wanted to go, there wasn't any place to really eat. There was not like diner or a cafe. And I remember we used to go into the Thrift Way into Richland every Friday night for a roast beef sandwich dinner. [LAUGHTER] And my mother worked in that grocery store for a little while as a checker. Bauman: Do you remember the name of the theater? Roop: I don't remember the name, and it was just right there on the Army post. And then, of course, later, the one downtown--well, there's the old, The Players where The Players are now. But there was another theater, sort of where the Desert--I'm remembering the old name, but where the Red Lion Hotel is. But there was another theater there in that block, a regular movie theater. And I can remember going there as a child and mostly seeing war movies that scared me, because they made a lot of stuff like that after the war, about the war. Bauman: Were there any doctors’ offices in North--did you have come into Richland for medical appointments? Roop: Yes, yes, we did. I don't remember them being any doctors and I had asthma as a child and I was often—4:00 in the morning we were heading somewhere. But mostly all of those kind of services were actually in Richland. And certainly in '62 when we got back, it was all still in Richland. And I was a patient of Dr. Corrado’s for many years. And he's a well-known physician in the neighborhood, in the community. Bauman: Right. So at what point did you become aware of what was being made at Hanford, the work that was being done at Hanford? Roop: I don't think I really understood for years what was really going on there. I think I was an adult before I really knew that they were making plutonium and uranium and things like that. Because we just didn't talk about it. You just didn't talk about it. And I guess the only thing, really, I would say was that we had to do the drills that you do that most kids did by--with their head over, you know, putting-- Bauman: Desk cover. Roop: --underneath your desk and all that. We—in fact, that is one of the poem I wrote that's in Particles on the Wall is about. Our drill was too right to go outside and there was a huge, sandy ditch, huge, long ditch--I don't know if you've ever seen a picture of it, I brought one--where we had to go outside and lay down in the ditch face down with our hands like this, in this ditch. And so we always knew it was often very scary and we knew that we were in a place that was targeted. I think kids felt that. That we were in a dangerous place because of the area, but we didn't know why. And we didn't know what it was. And I was trying to remember when exactly I knew what they made. And it wasn't--I think for sure I was an adult. And I talked with a fellow who worked in one of the plants out there. He explained to me how those plants really worked, like a pressure cooker and everything. And do you know something? I think I was 30-some years old before I really knew. So you just had all these--the innuendo of it. Bauman: You had some sense it had to do with defense or something. Roop: Defense, and it was scary. And of course, in high school, we knew of the bomber, so we knew of the bomb. I think I must have realized that part of what they did out there was making that bomb, but I can't tell you exactly how I got to know it. Bauman: Right. So you were in North Richland from about kindergarten through about sixth grade, you said. Roop: Mm-hm. Bauman: Did you stay in touch with any of the families or any of your friends in that school? Roop: Yes. There were the Keyeses. Yes, they had kids my age and we played together an awful lot. So there was three families that I sort of knew after that, but the Keyeses I did stay in touch with and they had a son a couple years younger than I was and he died about 10 or 15 years ago. He was younger and his brother died even at a younger age. I did stay in touch with them in knew them many years after. But it's funny. I know that there are other families, but we didn't stay too much in touch. There was about four families that every now and then we'd run into. But we didn't socialize and didn't get together like that except the Keyeses. Bauman: You mentioned a little bit earlier the drill of laying down in the ditch in the sand. Were there any other things that you remember from growing up that were connected to Hanford? Roop: Like the secrecy? Bauman: Yeah, the secrecy, or anything. Roop: Well, I knew that you couldn't go across--you could only drive out on the highway that goes north so far and then there was a checkpoint. And of course, when I grew up, there was no road that you could drive across to Vantage. Bauman: Oh, okay. Roop: Okay. That was all restricted area. And I think you could go as far as what was the first gate and then take sort of a left and go west to Yakima, but all of that area was off limits. And you know, I can't even remember the Geiger counter things that I know some of the people, the poets who read in Particles on the Wall, they remember the Geiger counters and that kind of thing. But I can't say I even remember that. Yeah. Bauman: So in looking back at those years, overall, how would you describe your childhood, I guess, in North Richland? Roop: Well--and that's what my poem is about--in many ways, because it was a small community and we all lived very close together, pretty much everybody knew what everybody else was doing and all the kids played together or didn't, but everybody knew who was fighting with who. That was a wonderful part, but it had this dark kind of cloud over it that was kind of scary as a kid. And the other thing that I remember from that time in the trailer court is that we had a ghetto inside the trailer court. And not too many people really remember this, that there was still segregation and all of the black people lived in one block, sort of in the middle of the school. And I only remember--and I went back and I saw pictures of John Ball's schools, each class, and there was one black boy named Maurice in there, but he was the only one. And I used to love walking through that area because it smelled so good, of all kinds of smells, cornbread and black eyed peas and greens and stuff. And so I remember that area and one person that I was describing that to who read my poem was very upset. She said, well, that's not true, but it really was true. We did have that area. Bauman: Well, yeah. I know much of the Tri-Cities was segregated at the time too. So about how large of an area was that then, with the trailer area that was the black area, I guess. Roop: It was very small. I would say it was one block. Just one block, maybe on each side. So we're talking maybe up to 30 or 40 families, maybe, but very small and one child, one black child in that school. Bauman: And they only had one child in the school. Roop: Mm-hm. Bauman: And that was like that as far as you can remember, the whole time you were-- Roop: Yes, that there was a segregated area, yes. Bauman: Interesting. Roop: Yeah. Bauman: Do you have your poem with you? Roop: Yes, I do. Bauman: I wonder if it might be good to have you read it. Roop: Okay. I would be happy to. Bauman: Because that would tie in with the answer you've been giving to my questions and so forth. Roop: Okay. And I have that and then I also have--it's kind of a bad picture, but I can't get it any better, and you might off the internet—but of the children actually lying in the ditch. That was in The Tri-City Herald, and I found it on the archive site for the Col High Bomber site. And it does tell on that site--and I do have it at home, I just didn't bring it—of who took the picture. And I believe that that was taken somewhere in the early '50s. Bauman: Do you remember how regularly these drills happened? Roop: About once a month. Bauman: Okay. Roop: About once a month. Bauman: Wow. Okay. Roop: And so if you want me to do this, I'd be glad to do that. Bauman: Yeah. That would be great, I think. Roop: Okay. And took a class in how to read your poetry, so let me get in the mindset here. Bauman: Sure. Roop: Because I've read it a couple of places and--Okay. "North Richland Childhood," by Jane Roop. "We came from Oklahoma, Momma, Daddy, and me after the war, dirt poor, to live in a 20-by-8-foot trailer on a 30-by-30-foot lot with other electricians, pipe fitters, teamsters, janitors, proud to be part of this atomic business, living in the largest trailer court in the world. Big enough to have our own ghetto, two blocks of dark, delicious smells, frying fish, boiled greens, hot cornbread. Once a month, from the top of tall poles, warning sirens wailed. The schoolchildren, black and white, raced by swings, monkey bars, the tetherball ring, to the sandy ditch behind John Ball Elementary. Strung ourselves down like paper dolls, clinching our fear behind closed eyes. A useless attack, a defense against a nuclear attack, but we would have been easy to bury there." And I did find out later that there was some science behind being in a ditch. According to one of my scientific friends here now, they thought that if you were in a ditch and sort of down that the wave would pass you by. But as a child, it never made any sense. But that's the poem and that's traveling with Particles on the Wall. Bauman: Right. Thank you very much for reading that. That's great. Roop: You're welcome. Bauman: As you were talking, I thought of one other thing that I hadn't asked you. Were there any places of worship, any churches-- Roop: Oh, yes. Bauman: --at camp there? Roop: Oh, yeah. I don't remember them being in the camp. We went to the Lutheran church on George W. Way that is now the Chinese. And then, of course, there was, still is the huge Baptist church there. And so during my childhood, I attended both of those at different times. Yes, but I can't remember and I'm sure there must have been on the base something for people, but we didn't attend there. We went into Richland. Bauman: Okay. Great. Is there anything I haven't asked you about or that you think is important to share that you haven't been able to mention yet? Roop: Well, I was just trying to think. It was just a special time, special memories. It's funny. As kids, you do remember things that were scary. Bauman: It's also very unique. I mean, not a lot of people grow up in a place like that, connected to something like that. Roop: Yes. And of course, we were always afraid of the rattlesnakes. [LAUGHTER] And the river because at that time the river was very fast when we first moved here. It wasn't dammed up, and it was always a great threat. And one of our things was not to go to the river. You don't go down there. And of course, that's where we went, you know. That's the way kids are. But I can remember that being very frightening. Bauman: Right. Roop: But other than that, yeah. Good memories too. Bauman: Right. Well, thank you very much for coming and sharing your stories today. Roop: You’re welcome. Bauman: I appreciate that very much. Roop: Okay. Yeah. Bauman: Do you have a couple of minutes? Man one: Yes. Roop: And I was trying to remember because I lived at 825 E Street. And I think it was A Street, down by the river, but I can't remember exactly. Bauman: Oh, okay. We'll go ahead. Man one: Would you mind your adjusting your microphone? Roop: Oh. Man one: It's sort of just kind of twisting a bit. Roop: There. Does that do it? Man one: Excellent. Thank you. Bauman: So I wonder if you could talk about the housing differences with the different classes of workers. Roop: Okay. Sure. What I remember most, of course, is that all the administrative people and scientists were living in houses in Richland in the ABC houses and that kind of thing. All the blue collar workers, electricians, pipe fitters, janitors, anything like that, North Richland trailers. And then there was sort of a mixed class that lived in houses down along the river, close to the river, but parallel to the trailer court, and they had houses as well. And there was approximately, I'm trying to think, maybe one row down kind of on the river, then one row kind of back just a little bit. And I believe that that was A Street—A and B. I lived on E Street. So that's how I remember that. And then, of course, there was the Army base where people lived there as well. Bauman: Right. So you were you aware of that sort of growing up? Roop: Oh, yes. You betcha. Oh, yeah. Yes. Because living in a trailer house was always at least then, rather, I mean, you were poor and you knew you were poor. And you knew you were poor, for me, because I couldn't wear the same kind of clothes that other kids wore. And that goes back forever, doesn't it? That I can remember it was a very big deal to buy a Pendleton skirt, a wool skirt. It was very expensive, and my mother bought me one, one time. And that was a great treat. Do you remember Laverne and Shirley and the poodle skirts and that kind of thing? That's the way it was then. Yeah. So there was very definitely class distinctions. Bauman: Did you talk about it in your family at all or is it just sort of an understood thing? Roop: I think the only way it really came out was, for me, was the clothes. I don't remember--as soon as you could, you moved up into a trailer, the first one that we lived in, like in the poem, didn't have a running toilet and I don't believe a shower. So the first thing that you did was try to get a trailer big enough and wide enough so that you could have a bathroom. We never had a wash room and you hung your clothes up on a big drying area. They had clotheslines in the bath house region. And I've always thought, I bet you that's the reason everybody use Clorox because in those days, everybody got to see your linen and your underwear. [LAUGHTER] Everybody could tell whether it was white or not because that's the way things were then. And I can remember getting washed in one of those big, square, cement tubs when I got like a ringworm. What do you call that? And you had to go and be washed in that kind of thing and that was the biggest place where I could be in something like a bathtub. So I was washed in that big bathtub in the wash house. But then as soon as you could get a big enough trailer, and then, of course, the next step was to try to get a house. Bauman: A house. Roop: Yeah. Bauman: Right. All right. Thank you very much. Roop: You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:29:25 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 241 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1949-56, ca1960-2014 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jane Roop Description An account of the resource An interview with Jane Roop conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-7-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item." Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-24: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Feedc5fccd193a378981173beb0d0136a.jpg 118fe6ae90840ec1411e82c29ac1adf4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F60c1c02414a925fb0ebfa6b3b6ba31b5.mp4 9918c042c46673ef73b3220ee13b9fb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shea, Bob Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Shea_Bob Robert Bauman: --start. So let's start, first of all, just by having you say your name and spell it for us. Robert Shea: Okay. Yeah. My name is Bob Shea. Bauman: And can you get the last name spelling? Shea: Oh, S-H-E-A. Bauman: Great. Thank you. And my name is Bob Bauman, and today's date is November 13th of 2013, and we're conducting this interview on campus Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So maybe if we could start by having you talk about when you and your family arrived here at Hanford, and talk a little bit about maybe your first impressions of the place. Shea: Well, my dad came over here in early March of 1943 from Missoula, Montana as a construction carpenter. And then my mother, and brother, and I came here after school was out in 1943 from Missoula, Montana. And we arrived, interestingly, the night of—or the morning, very early morning, of June 20, 1943 in the Pasco train depot there. And the reason I say it's quite interesting, because that day happened to be my dad's birthday, my mom and dad's anniversary, and Father's day. [LAUGHTER] So it was kind of a big day. But about two o'clock in the morning--and I might mention that, to me it was fascinating, because I was ten years old there in June of 1943. And when we arrived at the train depot there in Pasco, it was really in the middle of the night, and there were probably upwards of 2,000 people milling around; military—Army, and of course Navy personnel, I suppose, from the Pasco Navy base, and construction workers. There were little what we would call taco stands today around. Anyway, very interesting, very interesting. Just milling around. So anyway, Dad took us out to, at that time, the Hanford construction town site, which occupied the village area of Hanford, what was Hanford at that time. And in the middle of the night. Dad had brought over a very small trailer house, handmade trailer house. And that's what he'd been living in. And at that time, the trailer court for the Hanford construction workers was very primitive. They had put in most of the wash houses and most of the streets, but there was still a lot to be done. And so anyway, we made do. And to begin with, the trailers just sat out in the sun, so to speak. But it wasn't too long before the government realized that they should maybe put some canopies over the trailers to shield the trailers so they'd be more comfortable in the summertime from the heat of the sun, and keep some of the snow, and ice, and all off during the winter. So they put up canopies. I think the government had the idea that they would not allow anything as far as living quarters in the trailer portion of the Hanford construction site there. But it wasn't too long before they realized, with the number of children and so forth, they were going to have to allow some leeway there, and let the people build small little extensions to the trailer or whatever. And in our case, that was very important, because the trailer the mom and dad had was very small, maybe 21 feet at the most. And so we built a little lean-to establishment behind the trailer, which was very, very comfortable for my brother and I. By the way, my brother's five and a half years older than I am, so he went to work almost immediately. He was, what, 15 and a half, something like that. And he went to work immediately for one of the construction companies in their kitchen. I think he started out as a dish washer. And he worked there, I think, most of the summer of 1943. But at any rate, we had a nice, comfortable, well insulated with all sorts of Celotex that we are able to get--and it was very roomy, and comfortable. It was great. It served us very, very well. So that gets us established there at Hanford, and then of course the rest of the summer, for me, was roaming around, getting acquainted with various things to do, and not to do that I did anyway. And to begin with, the swimming facility—which was very important at that time for the construction workers, as well as the people in the trailer court—was in the river, just over the bank, so to speak, from what was beautiful downtown Hanford, which consisted of one gas station and maybe two little stores. But anyway. But it wasn't too long before they realized that that might not be too good of an idea to have that swimming area down in the river, because some of the fellows, especially--there were a lot of young men there working in construction. And some of them decided that it'd be kind of a challenge to swim across the river, and some of them were getting into trouble. I don't think there were any drownings, but there were some problems. And so it wasn't too long before they went what I call across the highway to the south of the trailer court about, oh, it would've been a good strong mile, I suppose, from the river. And they dug out some beautiful swimming areas, big ponds, with nice berms and all, to hold the water. And then they brought the water in from the river, and flooded those areas, and kept them in good shape. And so we had a nice, sandy bottom, and diving boards, and very, very nice. Very nice. So I've rambled along a little bit. Maybe you have a specific question that has come up or something. Bauman: You mentioned that you did some things that were okay for you to do, and maybe some things that you weren't supposed to do. Any stories from--that you want to share? Shea: Well, you know, maybe—well, I don't think of any right off hand. I might mention that—I'm sure I wandered off some, and probably worried Mom and Dad. But everything was wide open. And the good—at least from my point of view as a youngster there—there was never any problem for me as a little kid roaming around. And I I'll get into some of the detail later. But they went into the barracks of the white guys, as well as the barracks of the black fellows. And keep in mind that this is 1943. This is segregation. Right or wrong, good or bad, it was segregated. And there were black barracks. There were white barracks. And there were very, very few black children. But they had kind of a segregated area there in the trailer court for that also. But never any problem. And I spent a lot of time in the black barracks. One of my little sidelights as an entrepreneur out there, a ten-year-old entrepreneur, somewhere I got tied in with the Cloverine Brand Salve people. And I would get these tubes of Cloverine Brand Salve. And I think there are ten or 12 in each carton. And I would go to the black and the white barracks both on Sunday afternoons, and sell that salve. And boy, they just gobbled it up. They loved it. And so I made a few dollars that way. I shined shoes, which was quite--that was quite an activity for kids my age. We had little shoeshine kits. We'd carry them around, and if the guy wanted a shoeshine, $0.25 for a good shoeshine. It was a way to make money, and we enjoyed it. And maybe I'm jumping ahead, but anyway, when school started in the fall, of course, it was during the war. They had a shortage of teachers. They had a shortage of room there at the site to begin with for the school kids. And so we only went to school half-day, which was pretty tough to take as a kid, [LAUGHTER] but we managed to do it. So that gave us a lot of free time for activities, playing or making a few bucks doing whatever. So anyway though, during that summer of '43, got acquainted, and by the end of the summer, the trailer court was in great shape, and it was being added to daily. You might be interested in the--I forget exactly, but for about every 25 or so trailers, there was what we called a wash house, which--in the front of the building, or wash house, there would be an area with washtubs where the ladies could wash clothes. And then immediately across the street there were huge areas to hang clothes. No clothes dryers at that time. And so there were facilities for hanging the clothes and drying the clothes. And there was a lot of good weather, and for the most part, the clothes dried even during the winter. It wasn't too bad. But anyway, the wash house, the laundry facilities were in the front. And then on either side--on one side was the ladies’ toilet facilities, showers, and so forth. Then on the other side, the men had toilets, showers, sinks for shaving and all. And that would accommodate quite a few. And as I recall, it was around 20-25 trailers for each wash house. And of course, people could use any of the wash house facilities anytime they wanted to, if they walked around the trailer court, or whatever. Plus, as far as toilet facilities were concerned, there were portable--what we would call portables today. They were wooden. But they would accommodate people, too, and they had the female and the male outhouses, or portable toilets. And another thing very, very important there, throughout the barracks areas, throughout the whole trailer court, there were many, many water barrels. And that's really what they were. They were wooden barrels. I imagine they were an outgrowth of whiskey barrels of bygone days. But they had wooden barrels supplied with ice and water. Very clean. Everything was clean. And by the way, the portable toilets were kept very, very clean, and taken care of, in great shape. And the water barrels—and all the water barrels had salt distributors. The little distributors of salt would have little pills of salt, if you felt you needed salt. And I might add now that in the trailer court, I don't know how many there were, but for every, I would guess, 100 or so trailers, they had an icehouse, probably a building of 15 feet by 15 feet, something like that, well insulated, and then filled with ice. And the people from the trailer court could go get the ice anytime they wanted, all they wanted. No charge. And you could go and help yourself. Now you might say, well, why ice? Why not just turn the refrigerator on? Well, at that time, there weren't--all the trailers, most of them were very primitive. Very few electric refrigerators or electric heat. And so the ice went into the ice chest, of what we call an ice--a refrigerator that was cooled by ice. So it was great. And that, I might add right here, that that free ice was very important to me, because one way of making some dollars, or making some money as a kid out there--well, I guess I need to back up for a second. Virtually all hot water and heating throughout the whole Hanford town site, that in 1944 consisted of about 52,000 people--but all of the heating of the water, heating of the wash houses, heating of the barracks, and all, was done by steam—steaming. So that meant that there had to be quite a few large steam generating facilities throughout the whole Hanford site there to heat the water to produce the steam. Well, that was coal fired, and most of that coal came from up near Cle Elum. Roslyn was a big coal producing area there. And they would--the train loads of coal were brought in from Roslyn. But the steam plant was important to me because I could go there, and I could borrow a wheelbarrow. And I could take that wheelbarrow to the icehouse. And I could fill it with free ice. Then I could go to the grocery store, and I could buy Coke, or Pepsi, or whatever they happened to have, put it on that ice, and then push it down to where the buses--and I say buses in quote. We can talk about that later, if you like. But when the buses with the construction people would come in from the outer job sites every night for the guys living in the barracks and in the trailer court--and I would sell that Coke or Pepsi that had been on ice to the men. I think I bought it for something like a nickel a bottle. They didn't have cans at that time. A nickel a bottle, and I sold it for a dime. So a pretty good deal. Bauman: That's a good profit. [LAUGHTER] Shea: Good profit, good profit. Yeah. So anyway, that tells you about the icehouses. It tells you about the wash houses. And of course those wash houses, it was kind of interesting, because every morning, there would be--it was kind of like an anthill. You’d see the ladies walking over, and the men walking over, and shaving, showering, whatever, taking care of their needs for the morning, there, to begin with. So it was good. The government--or we could say the Corps of Engineers, because the Corps of Engineers really ran Hanford. That was their thing--they bent over backward to help people enjoy to the degree possible the living quarters, and they wanted to keep the people there to work. And so they had a lot of activities for the kids. We had tumbling, and then, as I mentioned, swimming. They had softball and all sorts of things. And of course we could work. The older kids—well, bowling at that time, which it still is to some degree today—bowling was very, very, very widespread throughout the whole country. And there were several bowling alleys there at Hanford. And the older kids, like 14, 15, 16, they didn't do the shoe shining and the selling the pop, and some of these other less important jobs. They were pin setters. Because at that time, you didn't have the automatic pin setters in bowling alleys. So they would go and set pins. And they apparently made good money setting pins and all. Plus, as I mentioned, by the time the kid was 15, they could work in the cafeteria, or what we called mess halls, really. I suppose the mess hall term came in from the military, there. But they were huge dining areas. We'll put it that way. So anyway, I'll stop for a minute, see if you have any questions. I'm kind of rambling here. Bauman: No, that's all great stuff. You said something about the buses. Do you want to talk about the buses a little more, and describe them a little bit? Shea: Yeah. Really, the transportation that was provided for the workers from Hanford out to the various areas, and in some cases, I suppose they had to go upwards of 15 miles, maybe 20 miles or so, were kind of glorified cattle cars, really. I mean, for the time, it was good. But they were wooden benches in these—actually, they were semi trailers that had a tractor, a truck tractor, attached. And they would haul, I suppose, 30-40 workers. And the poor guys, during the summer, they'd pull in to where they--kind of the disembarking area there, and those poor guys, I mean their tongues were virtually hanging out, because I mean, they'd come through this very hot ride in this very hot vehicle. And that's why they really sucked up those iced Cokes, and all. So anyway, but that's enough of—Actually, I might add that the grade school aged kids, grades one through eight, they went to school there at Hanford. But the high school age, nine through 12 there, they were transported into Richland for their high school years. And they rode those cattle cars too. They had buses, or anyway, transportation to and from. And it was pretty crude. But they got in. Bauman: So could you talk about the school a little bit? You went to school at Hanford town site, and could you talk about that a little bit, what that was like? Shea: The white building that is still out there, kind of shot up and beat up, which was really the Hanford high school, that's where the--they had, I don't know, probably eight, ten, 12 classrooms. And that's where I attended fifth and most of sixth grade, there in that school. But then they also had a many Quonset huts outside the school, immediately adjacent to the school. And they had a lot of classrooms in those Quonset huts, too. So I don't know how many, all told, kids that they would have had in the school. It had to be hundreds, but I don't know how many hundreds. But there were a lot. Bauman: Was it close enough for you to walk to? Shea: Oh, yeah. In my case, it was a piece of cake. I only lived about three blocks from--what we would think of today as blocks. And it was real simple. And they named the streets like Egypt, and such as that. I happened to live on Egypt Street--Egypt Street, and I guess it was actually the second block. And the trailer space number was 20. So my address was E 2-20. But now some of the kids, though, that would have been a pretty good hike for them. Some kids, I suppose, had to walk upwards of a good mile. A good mile. And no buses at all at that time for the school kids and all. The teachers, bless their hearts, I'm sure they did the best they could. But they had both morning and afternoon sessions. I imagine by the end of the day, they were pretty tired cookies. But they did as well as they could, and they were well respected, and taken care of. And basically it was the three Rs at that time. Bauman: Were you morning or afternoon session? Shea: I forget. At least one year, either the fifth or sixth, it was morning. Because that gave me all afternoon to go. But the second year, or one of the years, I don't remember if it was morning or afternoon. But anyway. And I'm not so sure, I don't remember, it could be that after one semester, they flipped us, also. If you had been going morning, maybe then they switched to afternoon, or vice versa. I'm not sure. I think maybe that happened, in case there was some reason that they thought it was better for the kids to be turned around there. Bauman: So the high school building was there, and you mentioned a gas station, maybe a couple of grocery stores. Were there a lot of buildings still from the Hanford town site, still there? Or had some of them been torn down? Shea: I think for the most part, those that had been--were there to begin, they retained them, like a gas station and a couple of small stores. But the Corps of Engineers, I suppose under contract, had--there in the trailer court, there were probably three very large grocery stores. And I remember, I believe at least one large grocery store over in the vicinity of the barracks, where the people out of the barracks could go if they wanted to get food, or maybe some clothing, this type of thing. And of course those stores were well stocked, well stocked, but just jam packed. And so you had, just as everywhere out at Hanford, you had long lines, whether it was a post office, which was general delivery, or stores, or whatever. In fact, some kids made some money standing in line for people. They would go and stand in line for Mrs. Jones at the grocery store, and when Mrs. Jones got her groceries, they'd come over, and naturally the kid had moved up several spaces. So anyway, there were all kinds of interesting things. I'd like to go back just a minute to the dorm--the barracks and the grocery store there, and the mess halls, although they were fantastic. The food was excellent that served the people, and the mess halls provided, if the guys wanted them, lunches to carry out to their worksite, so that they didn't have to prepare them, which would have been pretty tough in the dormitories. But the mess halls served excellent food. And actually, the people from the trailer court were welcome anytime they wanted to go to the mess hall. And I think, if I recall correctly--I don't know about the breakfast and lunch--but the dinners were a great big whopping $0.35 apiece per person. And that was family style, and you could eat all you wanted. Mom, and Dad, and my brother and I went to--I can remember at least two or three times going there for Thanksgiving and/or Christmas dinners. And, oh, excellent food. Excellent. And I'll have to tell you a little story there. The one experience, we went, and of course it was family style. It was just benches to sit on, and wooden tables. I think at Thanksgiving and Christmas, they did put a tablecloth on. But the one time we went, one fellow sitting across from us, obviously living in the barracks or someplace, didn't have his family with him. Anyway, during the time that Mom and Dad and my brother, and I were sitting there having our dinner, he consumed five pies. No meat and potatoes, the only thing he had besides that was coffee. He had five pies. Now these weren't huge pies. But they were pies. And he just took his time. And that's all he had. That was his dinner. And you could do that. It was family style. You could have all you wanted, and just go for it. Well, again, I've been rambling. Can I-- Bauman: Did you and your family eat there fairly regularly, or was there more special occasions that you would go to eat at the mess hall? Shea: The only times I remember are maybe three or four times there at Thanksgiving or Christmas. There may have been other times. Sunday afternoon, Dad might have taken us over there. I don't really remember that, no. Mom was an excellent cook, and unbelievable what those ladies were able to do with their limited facilities. Again, most of the trailers were very small, very crude. By today's standards, they would have been just shacks. But they did great. However, there were some manufactured trailers, and even with inside toilet facilities and all. But that was very rare there in the trailer court. Bauman: So you were about ten years old when you were there? Shea: I was ten in April of 1943, and we got there in June of 1943. So I was ten in two or three months, yeah. Bauman: So did you have any idea what this big project was, why your dad had come out here to work? Shea: No. Bob, at that time there were just a handful of people who really knew what was going on. And most of them didn't have a great idea. I mean they'd been told that it was--well, just for an example. A man that I later worked with on the Hanford project, he had come here as an expert in radio communication. And it was he and the crew that he had that put an antenna up on Gable Mountain. And he was told that, okay, this is, of course, super-secret, and one day, we will tell you more. And he said that before B Reactor went online, they came to him and said, okay, now B Reactor is going to go online because of thus, and thus, and thus. And we don't have any idea what it will do, if anything, with the radio communication, radio waves. It may be nothing. But be alert to the fact that, you know, you're the man. And so he said, but when it went online, no problem, no change. But anyway, that was interesting, what he had to say. I don't know if the name Robley Johnson means much to anybody anymore, but he was the official photographer. And he was a young man. And he was all over that place taking photographs and all. And later, I got to know him pretty well in the 1950s, when he had his photography shop here in Richland. And he shared some things that he thought was real interesting. But even he didn't know what they were doing, but so few did. And I suppose the few that did, they'd have said nothing. And of course the old Desert Inn Hotel here in Richland that basically was on the ground there where--what is it, Hanford House, or whatever they call it now? Anyway, it housed a lot of very famous people. But again, most of them were there with code names, now. Bauman: Do you remember when you found out what was being built out at Hanford? Shea: Kind of interestingly, in, I guess it was August of 1945, Dad decided he needed a few days off, so we took a vacation. Went over to the Seattle area, actually up to Everett, and then back down to Auburn and visited some people. And as we were going down, I guess, the old 99 Highway, Dad had the radio on, and it said, hey, you know, guess what? Across the mountains at Hanford, this is where the material for the second bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki came from. That's where we learned. So when we got back over here, though, then there was a lot of—all sorts of interesting things brought out. So that's how we found out. Bauman: So how long did you live in the trailer, then? Shea: Okay, we lived at the Hanford construction town site there from June 20th of '43 until--I'm not sure of the exact date--late March, 1945. And by that time, they moved everybody out of Hanford, all the barracks, the trailer court, again, anticipating that something could happen, and we would have been downwind from the B Reactor. And so then, yeah, we dispersed. And people--many of the people--were able to move directly into Richland that went to work in operations. They moved directly into Richland. But not everybody. They weren't able to house everybody. My dad went to work in operations from construction there. But we had to find a place, and we wound up in a house with a couple of other families down in what we know as Columbia Park today. Where the gazebo is today, that's where the house was. And so we lived there from end of March until--it was early July, I guess, when we got a house in Richland, and moved into Richland. And the family lived in that house--I mean, Mom and Dad--until in the 90s. So they lived there for better than 50 years. Bauman: It sounds like, for someone who was ten, 11 years old as you were, that living in the construction camp was quite an adventure in many ways. Shea: It was. It was a wonderful opportunity. I'm 80 years old, and as I look back on my life, two--we'll call them adventures, or two opportunities, let's put it that way, that I have always praised the Lord that I could enjoy--one, being a kid out there at Hanford, and the other, believe it or not, to be able to go through the United States Marine Corps Boot Camp. That was a great, great opportunity for me. I loved it. In both cases, I loved it. And as a take-off on that question, if you don't mind, that first summer of '43 there, one of the things that I enjoyed the most was going across the river and climbing around, and hiking around the bluffs. I called it my playground. And the thing--they had a 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week ferry. That ferry never stopped. It was not a big ferry. It was a tug-pushed barge that would hold four or five automobiles. And it just went back and forth, back and forth. And it didn't cost anything. Again, it was free for the employees. And the kids would go down there, and we'd cross the river, and go hiking on the bluffs, and chase rabbits, and kill rattlesnakes, and had a good time. So that really was great, though. I don't know if you wanted to take time or not on that—I brought a piece of aluminum, though. You know, that's kind of unique. But anyway, it's a piece of aluminum that came off of an airplane. One evening—toward evening, it was five, six, seven o'clock. One of the aircraft from the Naval training center there in Pasco, it was a dive bomber, had come around from the south, and the bluffs, of course, were across the river to the north, at very low altitude. And the engine was sputtering some. And, I mean, pretty obvious it was in trouble. And they were able to clear the bluffs by a couple hundred yards, maybe, 400 or 500 feet. But then it crashed and it burned. And so some of the men went out and got souvenirs. And the instructor and the student pilot were both killed in that crash. But it was unfortunate, but it was kind of interesting that they came through there. Bauman: And this is when you were living at the camp there? Shea: Yeah, right. And it just came right over the Hanford site there, the Hanford town site. We didn't see many of the planes from Pasco, there. I suppose a few that we saw came in on a cross-country training flight. But, talking about airplanes, we have to talk about the big airplane yet. We have to talk, I would hope, anyway, about Day's Pay. Now first of all, I want to correct something that--the idea that Day's Pay landed at some airstrip out at—oh, boy, the little town site to the west of Hanford— Alice: White Bluffs? Bauman: White Bluffs? Shea: --White Bluffs. Some would have you to believe that. But Day's Pay, when it came in, when it was flown in, it landed on the highway about a mile west of the school there. It landed, and there was plenty of room. It made a great landing strip: it was straight, and no hills, or whatever. It landed there, and then taxied up to the school, within 100 feet of the school, and parked, cut its engines, and they got out and did their thing. They christened it. There was a lady there that christened it. And they had their ceremony. And then it started up, taxied back to that highway strip, and took off to the west. And so that's where Day's Pay landed and took off. And for those who are not familiar with the Day's Pay thing, the reason it was named Day's Pay is all of the construction workers there at Hanford, building what we know as the Hanford Works, donated a day's pay to buy that B-17 bomber. And so anyway. Bauman: Yeah. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about when you went to work at Hanford then. When was that, and what sort of work did you do there? Shea: Can we come back to this other for a minute? Bauman: Oh, yeah, sure. Shea: Before we finish it? Bauman: That’s fine. Shea: Yeah. Again, praise the Lord, I was able to—right after finishing high school in 1951, and by the way, I graduated from Columbia High School in Richland. Well, it wasn't immediately after that. I had to get healed up from a broken ankle first. But by August of 1951, I was able to go into construction work, and I went to work helping build the 100-C Area, which was right adjacent to 100-B. And so that's where I started my construction work. And I worked there until September of 1952, at which time I started college. And so the rest--the several years after that, then, I would work in the summers, or if I had a real good job, I would work in the summer and maybe a winter quarter, or spring quarter, or whatever, in construction. So, my term, I helped build 100-C, helped build PUREX. And then in the mid-50s, I helped build--I don't know how many thousands of yards of concrete I hauled from the batch plant to the 100-K East and West basins, when they were putting the basins in, which was an excellent job. And I made good money, and was able to go back to school there after about six months. Then after that, after I got my degree, then I went into teaching. But as things would have it, I went to work back at Hanford in 1967. At that time, it was for what they call ITT/FSS. And they had the fire department security and several other responsibilities. And I went to work there for a couple of years. Then after that, actually, I didn't work at what is known as Hanford Works until the BWIP Project. And most people are not aware of what is called the BWIP Project. BWIP, B-W-I-P, stands for Basalt Waste Isolation Project. They were going to at least check on the feasibility of going down into the basalt under the Hanford site, and have storage for nuclear waste in containers. But politics being as it was, that didn't happen. BWIP and several other projects that they were experimenting with throughout the United States, went to Yucca Mountain and died, or at least is still dead. It may come back. But anyway, I went to work on the BWIP, but that didn't last long, because they abandoned that job. And then it wasn't until about 1983 or 1984 that I went back to work at what we'd call the Hanford site. And off and on there, and working on the two commercial sites that—Eventually, in 1996 I retired. So all told, if that's of any interest, I spent about ten years working at what we would call Hanford, in operations or construction. Bauman: Okay. Shea: Yeah. Bauman: Mm-hmm. Of the different sort of jobs and places at Hanford site that you worked, was there a job that was sort of the most rewarding, that you found the most rewarding, enjoyed the most, or one that was sort of the most challenging or difficult? Shea: Well, going back to August of 1951 there, yeah, I went to work in construction. And I was working through the union driving a truck. I mean I'd had some experience in that during high school. And so I was driving a flatbed truck, and one day I went to the boss, and I said, Charlie, I really appreciate this job. And I said, could I maybe drive a dump truck, or get some experience? Oh, sure, Bob, yeah, we'll fix you right up. So he said, go out--see that Euclid out there? This is a huge—to me, a huge piece of equipment, diesel powered, and it would haul about ten yards of dirt, and all. He said, yeah, go climb on that Euc, and take it over here to this power shovel, and work with them today. And anyway, I went out, to make a long story short, I finally got it started, with some help from some other guys, because I'd never driven diesel before. But this was the largest earth-moving equipment that they had out there at the time. And so I operated the Eucs for about a year, and I loved it. That was the most interesting part, I think, of my construction. And of that work, the most important and most interesting was we—right down to the north from the B Reactor there, we put in a new, I guess they'd call it to siphon, to draw water out of the Columbia River. We had to go about 100 yards out into the river, and built a levee for them to eventually put and lower the pipe--after it was welded, lower the pipe down to the floor of the river. And so hauling dirt out to the end of that, and you had to back the whole way and dump the earth, that it was quite a challenge. So I enjoyed that. But the other very interesting thing really didn't have anything to do with the Hanford site. It did have to do with what we know today as--well, what we knew then as unit number two, which today it's known as, what, Power Northwest? Bauman: Energy Northwest. Shea: Energy Northwest. Their number two unit out there, I was the welding inspector on all of the welding, and all for the structural steel that went on top of the reactor building, including the overhead crane. And that was very—I had never done that type of work. I had never walked steel before, and I haven't walked steel since then, and I never will walk steel again. But that was very interesting, very interesting. And it was very important work. And it was all nuclear grade welding. And so it was very fascinating. Even though that wasn't technically connected with the Hanford site, it was on the Hanford site anyway. Bauman: Sure. Shea: So it was very good. I don't know if you had-- Bauman: I have a question about when you actually, then, moved to the town of Richland. What was that like? What was Richland like in the late 1940s then? Shea: Very, very good question. It was very different, and I suppose that was true also of Kennewick and Pasco. It was a melting pot—people from all over the country—which is true at Hanford, too. Very interesting. Lot of people had come up from the South for the construction. Some people came up from the South and all to work in operations. And people like us had come in from Missoula, Montana. They'd come in from all over the country, South Dakota, North Dakota, all over. And it was true at Hanford, and it became true, really, at Richland, too. Many of these people, especially out of the South, had worked at that time—1943, even during the war years—had worked for maybe $1 a day. And they came to Hanford in construction out there, and laborers were making, I think, about $1.10 an hour. This was great. Many people moved into Richland, ourselves included. Mom and Dad had never owned a home. It had always been a rental home in the almost 20 years that they'd been married. They were provided nice houses, all the coal was furnished. They had to pay for their own phone, they had to pay for their own electricity. But I think the water and sewer was provided, all the coal. It was great. It was a new world. It was a new world for a lot of people, including the Sheas. And Dad appreciated it, Mom appreciated it. And they took very good care of things, and I don't think they took advantage of anything. But they enjoyed it. It's kind of interesting, I think—Alice and I share this every once in a while. Along toward '47, '48, in that frame, maybe '49 too, it was not uncommon that a neighbor might come to you in Richland there, and say, well, you know, it's been nice having you as a neighbor, you know, and we wish you well, and all that. We're being reassigned. And you would ask, reassigned? Oh, you're going to go to do a different job. Yeah, I'm getting a different job. Well, as it turned out, several plainclothes FBI agents lived with their families in the city of Richland, there, because at that time they were checking pretty carefully about communists. And of course it wasn't too long after that McCarthy in the US Senate, with McCarthyism there, and all, and the big communist situation there, as far as seeking them out. So that was kind of interesting. And there were, unfortunately, some families, the dad would be approached, and just say, okay, pack up, you're out of here. Your kids aren't behaving as they should be, or maybe they were a drunk. In other words, it was pretty tight, pretty tight. And it was kind of interesting, too, until probably 1950 or maybe even later, there was kind of a police headquarters, which was really government control. But the headquarters there. And they had police officers throughout the city, but nothing real heavy. But if—and this happened to us--if people come out of town would come, relatives from podunk corners, or wherever it was, would come to town. And they'd stop, and they'd say, well here's a police headquarters, we'll check and see where the Sheas live, because we're confused. And they would just be escorted. If they stopped with the police, there, the police would escort them right to our home, and they would say, do you know these folks? And, well, yeah. This is Uncle George, or whoever. Oh, okay, that's fine. You know them. That's good. We weren't sure what the deal was. So we brought them over. So that was kind of interesting. Bauman: Wow. Yeah. Very tight security. Shea: Tight security, yeah. Tight security. And I think that lasted pretty much until the mid-50s probably. Bauman: So, in terms of security, then, when you started working there in the 50s, did you have to have special clearance? Was there training about security, too, when you worked there? Shea: You had to fill out some paperwork. In construction phase there, it was pretty loose, not much. But in 1955, when I went one summer, when I was off from college, I went to work for what was known at that time J.A. Jones Construction Services. And I was going to be working some in D and DR, and F Areas. And I had to qualify with a Q clearance. So I got a Q clearance there in 1955, and I had it restated later, too. In fact, when I retired I had a Q clearance. Not too many had it at that time. For some reason they'd lowered the standard some. But yeah. So it was tight. It was very tight. And you've probably heard about the aircraft, the patrol aircraft that flew--the main reason for the Richland airport was to accommodate the half dozen Piper Cubs, really, that were constantly doing surveillance work over the Hanford site for, well, all of the 40s, and probably, I would guess, until 1954, '55, or maybe a little bit before that. After the Army moved in, anyway, and there was tighter security there. But the security was tight, yeah. Very tight. Bauman: Do you have something else you want to get back to that we were talking about before? Shea: We could go back to Hanford. But I might mention one thing, for anybody that's kind of interested in sports. This is kind of off, but anyway. There at Hanford, and after that, they had a MP, or Military Police Detachment of US Army personnel. And they were--of course, most of them were pretty young men, and all. And they had some good teams, softball teams and all. But a little sidelight, one of the men, one of the MPs, after he got out of the Army, there in late 1945, he went to various colleges around the area, and universities, and tried to get a football scholarship. He’d played a little high school football, and all. And so they all said, well, no, thanks, but we're in pretty good shape. So, okay, well, that's fine. So he decided, well, I'll just go back home. So he went back home to Illinois. And then in 1947, he reappeared in the Rose Bowl, and he was the quarterback for Illinois. And they proceeded to beat UCLA, something like 45 to 14. But his name was Perry Moss. And he'd been a GI MP out at Hanford. So I thought that was kind of interesting. Going back to Hanford, there. I might--two things I might mention that were very significant, and very important, not to me or my family, but I'm sure that many of the guys in the--and some of the guys in the trailer court, probably, some of the fathers, and maybe older boys—they had some excellent baseball leagues out there. Again, black leagues, white leagues. But the baseball field they had out there rivalled any major league ballpark in the nation at that time, other than the seating. There was only seating for about 6,000, I think it was. But the grass was perfect. They maintained it. And lighting was excellent, because most of the games were played at night, when the guys would come in after work. Excellent, though, and a lot of great baseball, a lot of great baseball was played there. And then I guess it would be just absolutely wrong not to mention something about the auditorium, or I guess that's what the main name for the huge building that they put up virtually overnight. That's not quite true. But really, within two or three days, they put up this huge building that they called the auditorium. It had a regulation-size gymnasium floor, and no seating such as that, except around the perimeter. But they had many dances, big dances. They brought the Globetrotter basketball team in. And I'll have to ask Alice to help me with the name of the--what was the band leader? Alice: Kay Kyser? Shea: Kay Kyser. Brought Kay Kyser in. And to this day, as far as I know, the grand piano that they brought in for Kay Kyser to use is still in what I know as Carmichael School. Alice: Chief Joe. Shea: Huh? Bauman: Chief Joe—Chief Joseph? Shea: No. Carmichael. Alice: Yes, Chief Joe. Shea: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, the one on Lee Boulevard at the top of the hill. That building. Anyway. I guess that, unless you have other questions-- Bauman: I was just going to ask you, did you get to attend any of the baseball games, or the auditorium, stuff in the auditorium at all? Shea: A couple of the baseball games. Since they were at night, Mom and Dad kind of rode herd on me a little bit there. But I did go to a couple of baseball games. And there was one ceremony there, too, that they brought a pilot and maybe one or two of his crew in who had to been taken prisoner by the Japanese. They'd been shot down, and they'd been taken prisoner by the Japanese, but they were able to escape. And so for one of the war bond drives, they brought them in to talk to the people. And they had a big ceremony there, and it was in the evening. And speaking of war bonds, or war savings bonds, and such as that, that was a big thing. That was a big thing there at Hanford, and for the kids as well as the adults. And so it was very well contributed to, really, or bought. A lot of war bonds there. So anyway, that was good, a good way to save money. Alice: What about seeing the fellow, the gentleman who had been shell shocked, and how they dealt with him? Shea: Oh. Yeah, that was the only really sad thing that I remember from Hanford days. And then, it was a passing thing. But one evening, near me was all of a sudden a congregation of several of the, we'll call them police officers, there at Hanford had formed a ring around--and I'm talking about ten or 12 of them--around this fairly young man. And as it turned out, he had been in the service, probably in Europe. And he went bonkers. And after—well, excuse me—he had come to Hanford and went to work. But that evening, he kind of went bonkers, and so these police officers just had to kind of slowly move in on him, and get him under control. And I think they cuffed him and took him away. But that was sad, because it was obvious that he thought that these were Germans that he was fighting. These were bad guys, and he was going to get all he could. That was sad, but anyway, those things happen. So I don't know if you have any other questions about Hanford, there, or--oh, excuse me. I just thought of one thing. One wonderful, wonderful thing there at the Hanford town site--well, let me back up. You're probably all aware of the fact that in 1943, when the government moved in, they really took over three little villages: Richland, Hanford, and White Bluffs. And Hanford and White Bluffs are, I think, separated by, what, six miles, or something like that, of highway. But between Hanford and White Bluffs—and I suppose on either end, west of White Bluffs, and east of Hanford, too—orchard, after orchard, after orchard of just wonderful fruit: peaches, big Bing cherries, pears, apricots—wonderful fruit. And we had the opportunity to go out and pick there--during the summer of '43, go out and pick, and get cherries. And another thing, the track houses, the farm houses that had to be abandoned, many of us went out and cut sod out of their lawns, and put the sod around our trailer, and watered it. It was great. It was great. And many of the houses that had been farm houses, they were taken over by the upper military of the Army Corps of Engineers. And they lived there, several guys in a house. But one thing that I understand is that every year the railroad would bring in--excuse me. Unless it was a bad winter and the apricots were frozen, they brought trains in to load up with apricots to send all over the country—LA, Texas, New York, and all, because those were the earliest apricots in the country. And they were wonderful apricots, too. So they hit the market, unless they got frozen off that winter, which I guess was very, very rare. Apparently that area around Hanford and White Bluffs, the air currents, or whatever, during the winter, carried fairly mild air temperature-wise, and so anyway. But that was interesting. Bauman: So it sounds like a lot of the farm houses were still there, and the crops. Shea: They eventually—probably in the late 40s—they cut all the orchards down, and so none of them existed. You can see a lot of stumps, but no orchards. And then interestingly, probably by 1948, you'd have never known that there was any barracks, wash houses, nothing. It was completely leveled. And today, it's just a few little asphalt strips that you'd see where the various streets were, and all. But yeah. That's it. Bauman: So was it just that first summer of '43 that you were able to pick the apricots and cherries and stuff? Just that first summer? Shea: Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I beg your pardon. No, no. '43 and '44. I beg your pardon. But not '45, because we were out of there by March. But all of that summer of '43 and '44, it was great. And again, I think it's important to remember that virtually all of 1944, that Hanford town site was the fourth largest city in the State of Washington, about 52,000 people, men, women, and children. Yeah. That fruit was wonderful. Bing cherries the size of quarters. Wonderful, wonderful fruit. Bauman: Well, is there anything you haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you’d like to still, that we haven't been able to talk about yet? Shea: Let’s see. As it relates to the bond drives, and all, here's a--my mother saved this because my little fat face was in it. But they had what they called The Sage Sentinel newspaper out there, and this is just an example. This is from June of 1944. It just showed some of us kids. They had bought war bonds, and they had a little blurb there about that. Bauman: Okay. We can probably get this on film. Shea: Or you might want to make a copy of it, or whatever. You're welcome to, if you'd like. Bauman: All right. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming today and-- Shea: Well, my pleasure. Bauman: --sharing your stories and memories. Shea: My pleasure. Bauman: I really appreciate it. Shea: No, it's my pleasure. So thank you. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:14:48 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 230 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor 100-C Area 100-B Area D Area DR Area F Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951; 1967-?; 1983/1984-1996 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Johnson, Robbley Moss, Perry Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Shea Description An account of the resource An interview with Bob Shea conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Missasion Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100-B Area 100-C Area B Reactor D and DR Reactors F Area Housing Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F949c34824c3baa683668f048b76a3f7c.jpg a7532e182135be110ec23c9c1739ee92 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff4c175dd0e7d7618799f999a667b9b3a.mp4 8ac495b3421b632f99b868b055771a34 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe Soldat Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> <div> Northwest Public Television | Soldat_Joe Robert Bauman: Okay, all right. Well, we'll go ahead and get started. All right. What I'm going to have you do first is say your name. And then spell it for me. Joe Soldat: Okay. Joseph Soldat, S-O-L-D-A-T. Bauman: Thank you, and my name is Robert Bauman. And we're conducting an oral history interview. Today's date is August 6th of 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And so I'm talking today with Joe Soldat about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So I wonder--let's start by maybe you tell me how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place. Soldat: When I graduated from the University of Colorado with a degree in chemical engineering, I worked for a while at the Denver General Hospital, which was associated with the university. And they lost their research grant. So I heard from somebody that there was a place called Hanford. So I wrote a letter to the employment department at GE. And I got a thing back, of course, that says, we got your letter on file. But it wasn't too long afterwards they called me, and told me to come. So I agreed to come out, sight unseen, on the train. And I got off to train. I looked at all the sagebrush, like everybody, and said, oh, I'll give it a year or two. That was 1948. And I stayed on the project for 47 years. Bauman: Ah. And so you arrived in this place of sage brush and desert. Soldat: Yeah. Bauman: What sort of housing did you find? Soldat: Well, when I came they put me in a barracks in North Richland, the old military barracks--small rooms for two people with a closet and a dresser. And showers were down the hall. Maid came in once a week to change the linens and towels. And I was paying $0.20 a day for rent. Eventually, I got to move to Richland--the dorm M4. And on the corner right now is a bank where M2 used to be. And M2 became a motel for a while—some guy bought it. And then it finally became a bank. But my wife-to-be lived in the women's dormitories with W numbers. And so we finally met, and ended up getting married in '52. Bauman: So did you live in the dorms for about four years from about '48 to '52 then? Soldat: Yeah, before I got married, yeah. And we managed to get a house. Because I was in radiation protection, we had some small priority on getting housing. And we picked out a pre-cut on the south side, three-bedroom. So we lived there till '63. And moved in a ranch house where I live now on Torbett, in a remodeled ranch house with an extra bedroom. Bauman: About how large were the dorms that you lived in? Soldat: The dormitories? Well, I'd say maybe as big as from here to that wall square. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: About how many people lived in the dormitories as a whole? </div> </div> <div>Soldat: On the whole, I don't know. They had--since I was on weekly salary, I had one kind of dormitory. Those that were hired on monthly salary had a little fancier ones. And the women had their own real good ones with a fence around it.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: So what was Richland like in the late '40s and early '50s in the community? Soldat: Well, when I finally moved into town, the town, essentially, was closed. If you didn't work there, you couldn’t live there. You could come in. There was no fence around it. But if you retired, you had to go somewhere else to live. There was no retirement housing. And the city, when I got my house, supplied oil, or coal, free for the housing. So the rent was fairly reasonable at that time. And they had the federal government until, I think it was '58, when they sold houses to us, and got their own government. One of my friends, Bob McKee, was on the church council. And he became, eventually, mayor of Richland. His funeral is coming up Thursday. He died away back in the spring. But they delayed the funeral for relatives, I guess. But, anyway, I got a reasonable price for my house, I thought. It was like about $9,000 plus, because I had put up a fence, and a little thing for storage of garbage cans and stuff. They thought it was the enhanced above the original value. So I got a little better value. We had the option of taking a buy back offer. If you wanted to sell the house back to the government in x number of years, they would give you a 15% discount on your house. But I didn't opt for that. I figured by then, I was going to stay. [LAUGHTER] They had a cafeteria in a building next to the 703 Building, that old Quonsethut-shaped building, that later became commercial facilities. But we could go in there for breakfast and get meals that were partly for military style, like powdered scrambled eggs and stuff like that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what about entertainment at the time you were living in the dorms? Were there things to do entertainment-wise? Soldat: Oh, okay. The people that lived in the dormitories could join the dorm club. We did all kinds of things. We had parties, dances, skiing, bike riding, hiking—everything before all these individual groups were established. So they covered the whole share. I learned to ski a little bit at Spout Springs, made it down the beginner's hill. Bauman: And you said you met your wife during that time? Soldat: Yes. Bauman: Was she working also at the Hanford Site, then? Soldat: She was a secretary. And she worked for a while. We got married in June, and in December, she had to quit because she was pregnant. They would not allow, at that time, pregnant women to work after fourth or fifth month. And then she never did go back to work. But she got involved in things like volunteering at the Red Cross, and Republican Women's Club, and all the things kept her busy. Bauman: Did you meet as part of some social activity? Or was it on the job, at work that you met? Soldat: She did all this being a housewife, all those things. Bauman: But how did the two of you meet? Was it at a-- Soldat: I'm trying hard to remember. Bauman: Oh, okay. [LAUGHTER] Soldat: I think I was introduced by a mutual friend, a guy that I used to bowl together. That's the other thing we had for entertainment in Richland, was bowling. And I liked doing that. But one of the guys I bowled with, we went to the restaurant. Next to the Richland Players Theater used to be a drug store, and they had a little cafeteria in there. We went in there, and we met these two women. And he knew one of them. The other one was going to become my wife. [LAUGHTER] </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Let's move now to the work you did at Hanford. What was your first job? Soldat: My first job while I was waiting for my clearance was in what was the bioassay lab in 700 Area doing statistical analysis of the results of the analysis of employees’ urine for radioactive contamination. I wasn't allowed to know everything I was analyzing. But I did a statistical analysis. I had a orange card, which allowed me in, because I didn't have my clearance. Theoretically, I was supposed to be escorted in and out. But there was such a mob of people going in and out they never bothered to ask me whomy escort was. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So where was this at? Soldat: 700 Area, 703 Building—the old one. And the bioassay lab was inside the 716 Building, I think it was. Bauman: And so how long did you do that? Soldat: I did that--well, I came in August, '48. And it was five months before I got my clearance. Then I went out to T Plant as a radiation monitor in training. Bauman: And how long did you work there? Soldat: Oh, gosh, I worked there for a couple of years. And then I got transferred to environmental monitoring. Out there in 2-East Area, environmental monitoring people were housed in an old Quonset hut next to the coal pile. You had to go in and sweep your desk off with a broom every morning to get the coal dust off of it. [LAUGHTER] And I stayed there for a while. I did some projects, calibrating some instruments, and other things. And then we moved to 329 Building in 300 Area. I think it was in the early '50s. And I stayed in environmental monitoring work ever since, through the rest of my career, writing impact statements, deriving equations for calculating dose to the public from releases at Hanford in food, and water, and air, and stuff like that. And my models are still being used some places. I was--we didn't have a lot of data. But I learned from the turtle you don't make progress unless you stick your neck out. That’s how they do. Sometimes throw darts at the chemistry chart on the wall. And say, well, this one should behave like that one, and put together what we could know. And my coworker Dave Baker was a computer guy. I'm not very good at computers. But he computerized a lot of my equations and stuff. Between us, we agreed and what kind of factors to use. There was some literature from the fallout studies. There was a fellow named Yoka Ng, N-G, in California who had to put together a lot of data for the fallout branch on concentrations of various chemical elements in soil and plants, which made it very easy for me to predict the update of the radionuclides. Bauman: So, what kind of findings did you have at some of your research about things that happened at Hanford in terms of the air, and water, and so forth? Soldat: Well, depends on what you want. It all started in '58 when Jack Healy gave a paper at the International Atomic Energy Symposium. And he talked about what we were measuring in the environment, and the kind of findings that we had. And we eventually created a maximum individual person who ate big amounts of food, and drank milk from cows, and fish from the river, and all that. And then we calculated the dose he would get from concentrations in these things. And things were generally below the limits that they had at those times. Originally, in the early years the limits for the public were the same as workers. It took them a while to figure out that there are, perhaps, more sensitive people in the public because workers were all health screened and everything. So they lowered all the public limits by a factor of ten to be safer. And we also had to put controls on releases to the atmosphere. The manager of the radiation protection department—it call was called health instruments at first—set limits for the reprocessing plants, and how much iodine they could release, and other things. And they worked hard during those years in the '50s and '60s putting in new cleanup equipment on the stacks—sand filters. And then eventually PUREX had fiberglass filters to remove the particles and stuff. So I've installed sampling equipment on all of the stacks, and the separation there is, some of them before and after the cleanup so they could see what the efficiency was. And I kept track, by going to the operating gallery, what kind of metal they were processing, how old it was, how much it had decayed, so we could relate things to what we were finding at the stacks. That data is still around. And when they did the dose reconstruction under Bruce Napier, they used a lot of my old data about the stack releases. Fortunately, Bruce had an office next to me. [LAUGHTER] So we communicated. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So you worked there for how many years at Hanford? Soldat: 47. Bauman: 47, you must have seen a lot of changes in technology, instrumentation, those sorts of things? Soldat: And administration. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. GE, at one time, I think it must have been in the '50s, decided that they would have no job description titled assistant, or under-secretary, or whatever like that. There would be no committees doing any administration. Every job had to have a written, definitive description specifying the duties, and the authorities, and the obligations. And it worked well for a long time. And then before that, when I wanted to get a paper cleared, I had to go through about half a dozen signatures, including public relations, of course. But then later on, I--essentially with my boss and one guy from public relations--they all had to clear my public papers. And it worked out well then. Then Battelle took over, reorganized things a little bit. And a funny thing happened. I had a secret clearance with GE. When Battelle took over, they decided that they didn't want to have too many secret clearances to manage. So they lowered my clearance and several other people’s. I want to the library to get a report I had written in 1949, classified secret. They gave it to me on microfiche. I read it, and I asked for a full printed copy. The remark I got eventually was, you can't it. You're not cleared for it. What are you going to do, brainwash me? [LAUGHTER] So Battelle had to raise my clearance back to what it was before. Bauman: Because you had written secret reports? Soldat: I talked about iodine releases to the environment, and measurements inside the 200 Areas. Bauman: I understand you were involved in a comprehensive food model? Soldat: Yeah. Bauman: What was that? Soldat: Well, about the late '60s, Westinghouse had a project to try and calculate doses to the US public from a large nuclear economy, especially reactors, and ignoring the waste part. And they needed to know what would be in food, and water, and air, and everything. And a fellow by the name of Bill Templeton who was an aquatic biologist worked with me at first. And then, finally, he said, okay, Joe. You're doing all right. So he turned me loose. But I had a fellow, Dennis Harr, who came to Hanford from Alaska. He was a forest hydrologist. They assigned him to me to help look up the factors I needed. He came here to WSU--or to Pullman, really—and looked up all of thinking about how much a cow eats, how much water they drink, and how many acres of this and that is growing. So he was very helpful looking all that stuff up for me. I just sat down and wrote an equation. I had heard that in the Windscale accident that the iodine they released stuck about 25% to plants. So I used that factor. And I added that stuff from Yoka Ng with the soil to plant ratios. So I modeled the uptake from soil, and combine all that in a big long equation with about 21 parameters. And I gave a paper on that at an ANS meeting in the '70s. And I also developed a diagram—a pathway diagram I call it--with all of the lines from all of the sources going across and interacting. And then at the end, they combined for the dose at the end. And that got published, too, in my '70 paper. And I did put all that stuff together with some other things for Reg Guide 1.109. It included my calculated dose factors for people of four ages--four years, 11 years, 17 or 16, and adult, because the organ sizes are different. So the doses are different. That was in there, my food model was in there, and then I developed a model for exposure to sediment in the Columbia River. Dick Perkins had measured three or four radionuclides in the sediment in the Columbia River as best you could, because it's awful rocky on the bottom. And analysis of that told me what the relationship was between the water and the sediment, assuming it had been running for many years, and had time to come to equilibrium. So I developed the equation for that, which included the radioactive half-life of the elements. And that was used in several instances in impact statements about--I think it was '59, they had something called a Calvert Cliffs Decision, in which they were trying to build a reactor. And the government was forced to do an environmental impact statement on every existing reactor and every new reactor. First rule was 100 pages’ length. But it still grew, because people were copying what other people had done. Well, this flew, so we'll put it in. Then they add unique things to their site. And it kept growing and growing. But there were 50 reactors that had to have impact statements. And they split it up three ways between Argonne National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, and Hanford. And I got involved in the Hanford one. First time I used my sediment model was for plants on the shore of Lake Michigan, and exposure to people standing on the shoreline--first time I used it off-site. And we calculated the dose someone might receive from the sediment contaminated from the water which came from the reactor outlet that was diluted before it got to where the fishermen was. So that was added to the impact statement, along with the fish, and all the other stuff that we normally did. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Hanford, of course, when you first arrived was all about production. But at some point that shifted to cleanup. Did that shift impact your work in anyway? Soldat: Well, yes and no. [LAUGHTER] It changed exactly what I was doing. But I was still doing environmental stuff. For cleanup—well, before that we were doing impact statements for new things at Hanford, like a front end for PUREX to do 100 N fuel, and all kinds of stuff. Afterwards, I was doing impact statements and studies forproposed cleanup. There was a big, fat three-volume document--I think it was SWASH 1400, it started out. It ended up being ERDA 1400. And in there, they studied every possible waste source, contamination source, potential for accidents and exposure. And I did a lot of those calculations. So one thing they wanted, which is very current today, they wanted to know, what would happen if a tank leaked? They said, what would happen if 1,000 gallons of tank leaked all at once? So I got a guy, Andy Reisenhauer, in the water department we called them. He was doing ground water studies. And he figured it out. With this modeling, he showed how small the contaminated area would be, and how, essentially harmless and well-confined to the immediate vicinity it was. And I get all upset now a days about the clamor about everybody that don't understand what's going on, even the governor. [LAUGHTER] At least he tried. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: So when you started working for GE, what other contractors--you worked for Battelle? Is that right?</div> <div> <div> Soldat: Yeah. Battelle just took over everything we were doing. Almost all people came directly to Battelle. There were a few that stayed in the 200 Areas the reprocessing areas. But some of them later came to Battelle. So a few stayed out there, worked for the various contractors they had. But it was nice, because having been altogether in GE, I could still communicate with those people when I needed information and data on releases, and access, and things. I could talk to them directly. I didn't have to go up and down the channels. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you had written a secret report. And you had to go back and look at it, they initially told you you couldn't. As a site that, obviously, emphasized security and secrecy, I wonder if you could talk about how the emphasis on secrecy and security impacted your work in anyway. Soldat: Well, I told you what happened to me when I was working in the 700 Area. And I got here in '48. In '53, they renewed the Q clearances. I got called in the FBI for interview. They said, when you were in college—that's like in '46 or '47--you attended a meeting of, I think it was, SDS, which was supposed to be a Communist-related organization. They had a meeting in the park. They were complaining about their treatment. And it was a big hullabaloo. And I decided I'd go down and see what was going on. Apparently, they had spies watching all these people. So they started asking me questions about that. And I explained it away to their satisfaction. They said, do you ever read The Communist Manifesto? I said, no, but maybe I should someday. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: When you first started working there, did you take the bus out to the site? Soldat: Pardon? Bauman: When you first started working there, how did you get to the site and back? Did you take the bus out? Did you drive a car? Soldat: There was no background checks when I first came, because I had that work card. It took them five months to do all the investigations of relatives and friends to find out if I was reliable. And I finally got my Q clearance. But they may have reviewed things other than that one I know about since. But the FBI was doing it at that time. Later on, they farmed it out to a different government agency. And I don't think the checks were quite as thorough at that time. But you couldn't drive through the project like you can today. When you want to go to the west side, you can drive down towards Vantage through the project. It's all right. But it used to be all sealed off. You had to go around by Robinson's barn to get where you're going. Bauman: And when you went through security at the gate, did you have to show a badge? Soldat: Well, after I got my clearance, they checked everybody's badge going through. At one time in 300 Area, they had a badge rack. You would put your badge in the rack to go home. They didn't want you taking it off site. Well, one thing, you might get exposed from TV. [LAUGHTER] The old TV sets had a relatively high energy coming out at the bottom. Some kid sat there with his feet under the TV set, he might get a little bit of exposure. And so one day, I wore some radiation dosimeters, those pencil dosimeters on myself while I was watching TV at a distance. And then I put some by the TV set to compare the readings. And there was a small difference. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, at first, I thought security was a little lax because of the way they were letting you go through 700 Area, first few months. But it got pretty tight afterwards. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Were there any events or incidents, anything that happened—accidents of any kind, that happened when you were working at Hanford, or strange occurrences? Anything sort of stand out in your mind?</div> <div> <div> Soldat: Well, there was a few, of course. They had limits they set on the releases for iodine-131. They had an experiment in which they wanted to have short cooled fuel, which would have more iodine in it, to released short-lived inert gases like Xenon and Krypton to the atmosphere so the Air Force could fly around with a plane and measure it. As I figure out, the idea was they could fly around Russia and see what kind of production they might be having from what they could detect in the air over a facility. Well, when they had—it's called a green run, when they had that, the iodine came out. And there was a little bit of to-do about that in later years, and people being exposed. And even before the iodine releases were controlled, there was quite a few releases. But in later years, I used my rules of thumb I learned, and my models to predict what doses probably were in the early years before they had reconstruction done. And I came probably within a factor of two of what they spent millions of dollars to calculate. [LAUGHTER] But that was one thing. And then they had some fuel that was mislabeled, and it was short cooled, that released iodine in the 200 Areas. And we went out and studied the vegetation on the project, and all around. Well, it turns out the iodine was held in the tanks for a while. And the vegetation that we measured didn't have any until they transferred the solution to another tank. Then the iodine escaped. And then we could find it on the vegetation—we found it in the Pasco area, and West Richland. And the meteorological group predicted it would--according to the weather, it should be high in north of Pasco. Well, it wasn't high there. It was higher in Benton City than it was in Richland. And there was a Benton City farm that had milk. And we sampled that milk every day for a long time, and plotted the curve as it decayed. And I backtracked it for a couple of days that we had missed. And I calculated the radiation dose a kid might have drinking that milk. And the standard model was one liter of milk a day. And I calculated all that. And we couldn't get the kids to come in to get a thyroid check for awhile. The mother was reluctant. Finally, he came in months later. And at that point, I predicted the thyroid burden ought to be 70 picocuries. And it turned out, he was measured 72 picocuries. Then something really interesting happened with that. Some anti-nuclears said that I had reported on this thing, and the dose was less than a fraction of the limits. So it's all right to die by a fraction at a time. Somebody else picked that up, and said I had pin pointed the death of a small child drinking that milk. So some guy from Oak Ridge, his name was Piper, investigated all this stuff, and tried to put everything straight, and straighten out all these misconceptions. But you can see what happens to the press. Bauman: So what time period was that? Soldat: That was in '63. It's all published in Health Physics Journal, and all that stuff. They had an iodine symposium in 1963—a biology symposium. People all over the world came here. And we met in the old community house, this little anteroom off to the side, with swamp coolers. And it was 116 in Pasco. [LAUGHTER] It was a mess. But we published a whole book of the papers. And I have a couple in here, at least by abstract anyway. I learned alot about the different factors, again, and improved my knowledge of what was going on. Bauman: So when there were releases of iodine, you were involved in calculating the-- Soldat: Yeah. Bauman: Measurements? Soldat: Yeah, another thing I did was I stood out by a met tower wearing a respirator device that measured my breathing rate by volume. And they released iodine--I think it was 135 or 132, a real short half life--that another guy and I could stand there and inhale. And then we went and got our thyroids counted, and watched the decay, and integrated the whole thing. And my total dose was probably about ten millirem, compared to the limit, which was 1,500 a year at that time. Herb Parker got real mad, because we hadn't checked with him to see if it was okay. He said we should have our thyroids examined before we did it. [LAUGHTER] </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So you were used as test subjects? Soldat: The other release was from REDOX--ruthenium--there was two rutheniums: 106, and 103. And the scrubber in the plant that was supposed to remove these from their exhaust failed. And it released about 40 curie of ruthenium out the stack. It was detectable on Wahluke Slope, and all the way up just southeast of Spokane. It missed all of real good farms, and everything, fortunately. So we went up collecting a lot of samples from that. Then there was a contamination on Hanford itself on the roofs of some of the buildings and the ground. So that was all cleaned up. I spent some time monitoring transportation workers who were going around picking up particles around the 200 Areas. The other thing that happened is they found radioactive rabbits and coyotes--BC trenches, in 2 East Area. They disposed of waste which had cesium. And, of course, it's a salt relative to sodium in the nucleic chart. And the rabbits got in there were eating the waste with the cesium, and digging down. And the coyotes were eating the rabbits. And so we were finding this contaminated environment, and traced it down to that. It didn't travel more than a mile or two. Rabbits have a very short range. They don't travel more than a couple miles. And so that had to all get cleaned up, and covered over, put to rest. There was a few things like that. Bauman: Did any of these incidents or releases--were there ever any that you looked at, studied, calculated, and found that it was a risk to employees, or to the public at all? Soldat: No, most of them were--the release of the strontium, the highest concentration found at Wahluke Slope across the river was--if a guy stood there and breathed the whole time the cloud time went by, he might have got 80 milligram to the lungs. And, of course, at that time, we were getting 100 milligram a year from radiation. And the limit to the public was 1,500. So, really, it wasn't that significant. Bauman: I wanted to ask you about a little bit different part of it. President Kennedy visited in 1963 to open the N Reactor. Soldat: Yeah, I want to see-- Bauman: Were you there? Were you part of it? Soldat: I was standing far back in the crowd. And I could barely see the President. They opened up to the site to the public to go there. And I rode with a friend. And he and his son went with me. We watched that thing. Bauman: Do you remember anything else about that day? Or just being really far away? Soldat: Well, I remember when the helicopter landed with the President inside it, kicked up an awful lot of dust. I was glad that maybe it wasn't all that contaminated for people to breathe. Bauman: Do you remember any other time when any dignitaries came to the site? Soldat: Yeah, I just noticed something I looked at this week. Nixon visited Battelle facilities, the main research building. And Ronald Reagan was here one time. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: I wondered what you would consider the greatest challenges you had during your years working Hanford, and the greatest rewards?</div> <div> <div> Soldat: Well, I don't know. The least of my challenges was working with administration, because usually they managed to turn me loose when they found out what I was doing. I think that the challenge was finding data in the open literature that I could use to put into my models. I'd go to the library in those days, you would ask for literature, and sit down, and read it, and take notes—not like today. So I found things, eventually, from researchers in Russia who had studied uptake and radionuclides in fish, and studies at Oak Ridge on fallout in cattle, and all these things. But finding data was a little hard, not because it was classified. But it was in the open literature, and you had to think about where it might be located. That was one of my most challenging things. The other challenge was to learning how to use Word Perfect. [LAUGHTER] My secretary forced me to learn it. She helped teach me because she couldn't read my handwriting. That was a challenge for a while. I still have trouble with computers. But I think the biggest reward was all of the recognition I got from management, and Health Physics Society, and other groups. I got a file about that thick that I labeled Kudos. And when they have the recouplex incident in 234-5that had a solution that wasn't handled right. And it had a nuclear reaction, in an outfit called recouplex. We worked a week or so overtime in evening, and around the clock some of us, working on the effects of that, and the dose to the people. And I had measurements of the stack gases. And I predicted from the stack gases how many fissions had occurred in that pot. And then the other guys, the real nuclear experts, came and did theirs. And we agreed within a factor of two again. But, yeah, it never really did much off-site again. It dissipated before it got anywheres. We plotted the path, and by the time it reached the boundary of the site over towards Pasco it was essentially nothing. Because whenyou have a nuclear reaction like that, you generate a lot of short-lived radionuclides with seconds, and minutes, and days. And so it really wasn't that effective off-site. Bauman: What was the time period of that incident? Soldat: I want to say April '62, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Being involved in environmental monitoring, and monitoring the effects of releases and that sort of thing, did you at any point—it seems like at some point, nuclear power became--like, certain groups opposed that, right? You hadgroups that became opposed to nuclear power, and the use of-- Soldat: Obtained what? Bauman: Opposed to nuclear power-- Soldat: Oh, oh. Bauman: Anti-nuclear stuff. Did you feel that at all at work, I mean or stuff you were involved in? Soldat: Well, yeah--well, there are people off-site who--that story I told you about that small child. And then there was another guy, he worked at the University of Pittsburgh. I'm trying to remember his name. He predicted all the dire results of fallout from strontium-90. He gave a talk at strontium-90 symposium in biologyput on here one time. And he came to me and says, I need to get my slides remade. What he was doing was correlating the concentration of strontium-90 in milk and leukemia in children. Well, this curve went to pot. And he decided he needed to summarize, average it, over two years. And eventually that went to pot. It didn't work. So then he eventually tried four years. And he asked me if I could get his slides rebuilt for his talk so he could use them for a four-year average. So I went to Bill Bair who was the manager of the symposium. And he said, sure, we'll do it for him. And they did. And he used them. Of course, a lot of people in the audience knew better than to believe what he was saying. </div> </div> <div> Bauman: Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you would like to talk about? That I haven't asked you about? Soldat: Well, I got some awards. I don't know if you're interested. The local chapter Health Physics Society gave me what's called a Herb Parker Award for Distinguished Service. And then I got elected fellow of the National Society. And then I got the National Distinguished Scientific Achievement Award from the Health Physics Society, which was sort of a review of my total career, and all the, quote, the great things that I had done. The environmental section in the National Health Physics Society established an award for environmental radioactivity measurements type of stuff. And a fellow, a friend, Jack Corley, who worked here, and I got the first ones that they awarded for that as distinguished service. And then I got a plaque from Bill Bair when he was retiring. So he's such a nice guy, he awarded about three or four plaques to employees outlining their distinguished careers. I was one of them. And it's for all the work I had done on radioiodine. So I got that plaque. Bauman: And you're involved in the Herbert Parker Foundation? Is that right? Are you part of that? Soldat: I volunteered not to get involved in the Parker Foundation. I let Ron Kathren, and Bill Bair and Dale Denham, and all these guys do it. I worked for a little while after I retired for Dave Muller and Associates to help with the down-winders case, writings some papers on it, and releases, and another one with Jack Selby on plutonium releases from the 200 Areas that were used in the hearings for that business. I haven't really--well, people call me up every once in a while and ask questions—pro bono. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Overall, how would you assess your 47 years working at Hanford as a place to work? Soldat: For me, it was a great job. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I had wonderful people, except maybe one case of this one boss. But totally great people, and I felt like I was doing something worth while. And it was useful. Later on, it got to be where everybody was writing impact statements, which are not a product. It bothered me a little bit. Even I got involved. And those were kind of necessary. EPA at one time says, we need you to calculate the effect of this dose out to the year 10,000. I said, what? So I got out my business card. And I changed it from environmental engineer to science fiction writer. [LAUGHTER] But I had a great time. I tried to get in the army when I first graduated from high school. And I couldn't because of my ears. And the Navy wouldn't take me because of my eyes, the program for officers. So I ended up—third choice was out here to do my part. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your stories with us, and your experiences. I appreciate it. Soldat: I hope it's been useful. Bauman: Yes. Thank you. Soldat: Yeah, just carrying this around helped me remember. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:53:44 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 209 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 700 Area 2-East Area 329 Building 300 Area 200 Area N Reactor 703 Building 716 Building Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1948-1995 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 McKee, Bob Baker, Dave Healy, Jack Templeton, Bill Harr, Dennis Perkins, Dick Andy Reisenhauer Parker, Herb Corley, Jack Kathren, Ron Bair, Bill Denham, Dale Muller, Dave Selby, Jack Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Soldat Description An account of the resource An interview with Joe Soldat conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-30: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/6/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 2-East Area 200 Area 300 Area 329 Building 700 Area 703 Building 716 Building Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fecf6d23f2029be8777f7364c6e43f6d1.jpg 107947d118ec8047404f520b29342bda https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff48f8f7243653d2a40990d75bedb74ff.mp4 3bd7a80a24bfec4a2e2d7085d4e15964 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sutter, Sue Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sutter_Sue Robert Bauman: Well, I think we're ready to get started. Sue Sutter: All right. Bauman: So let's start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Sutter: Sue Sutter, S-U-T-T-E-R. Bauman: Great, thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on July 23rd of 2014, on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if you could start by telling us, first of all, when you came to Hanford and what brought you here. Sutter: Well, it all started when I was in college. I was at Washington State. It was a college then. And they came up there and interviewed, and they gave most of us jobs. They needed warm bodies down here. And so I had a job when I came down here in June 21st of 1948. Bauman: And what did you major in in college at WS--? Sutter: Chemistry. They needed a lot of chemists. And then when I came here, my folks brought me over from Seattle in a car. And we came to North Richland. Well, I signed in downtown, and we came out to North Richland, where I was supposed to go. And where I was assigned to live, at least temporarily, was in North Richland. It had a wire, a cyclone fence around it, topped by three rows of barbed wire. I think it was made for prisoners of war or something like that. I didn't think my parents were going to leave me there, but they did. And I'd never seen one before. They had a community shower, you know, like the men have. I was the only person there. And the next day, they found me a place downtown. I was in W5. W5 was the women's dorm. And it was right above the Green Hut Cafe, where everybody ate all the time, because that's about what it was, that and Thrifty Drug. And when I was there, I met some of the—it was when I was going through the hospital, one of my friends from college was working there, and she happened to be in the same dorm. And I went. That was about it. And I don't remember starting work. And where do you want to go from here now? Bauman: Well, what was your first job? What sort of work were you doing? Sutter: Oh, what they called essential materials. It was in 300 Area. And everything that came on to the plant had to be chemically verified. And that was what that job was. And I was working there for about three years. And then I got married. That's where I met my husband. He was in the lab, too—a chemist. Bauman: What were your first impressions when you arrived in the area here? Do you remember? Sutter: No, I don't. After you've gone away to college, I went over on the train from college, you're used to things changing at that time. It didn't strike me as odd at all. What was odd was that when I first came, I was in North Richland and I had to eat out of the cafeteria there. And it was all full of construction workers. [LAUGHTER] But I survived. But I was only out there a couple of days, and then I moved to town. Bauman: And you said you worked for three years out at the 300 Area then? Sutter: Yes. Bauman: And you met your husband. Was your husband also working there? Sutter: Yeah, we were in 3706 Building, which has long since been destroyed. Bauman: And you mentioned your dorm was right above the cafe. Sutter: Yeah. Oh, that's it. And there were a lot of young people here. They had money and no place to go. And so every weekend—a few of them had cars—so we all left town. And we went down to Lost Lake in Oregon on one trip. And I remember one trip we went to Long Beach, Washington, and just various around here. Because there was nothing here. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I was going to ask you, was there anything in town for entertainment? Sutter: Oh, I think there was a movie theater. And Thrifty Drug. I don't recall any particular entertainment. Of course, we were here for working. Well, that's why we left town. Bauman: So after three years working at the 300 Area, you got married. Where did you live it at point then? Sutter: Oh, we were able to get a house. Houses were assigned to married people. We lived on Farrell Lane. And we lived there for about three years. And then they decided they were going to sell all the houses, and that's when we bought the house in Kennewick. You have the information on selling the houses. Bauman: Right, yes. Sutter: We were the junior tenants in a duplex. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sutter: And we moved to Kennewick, and we stayed there ever since. We were lucky to find a house that worked very well for us over there. Bauman: So let's go back to your work, then, a little bit. What was your work like? How was it as a place to work, the 300 Area, when you were there? Sutter: It was just a lab. There were a lot of funny people working there, different people working there. One of the technicians, she stole all the cheesecloth, and she wrapped it around her head and took it out with her every day. [LAUGHTER] But I can't remember much of working. I'm sorry. Bauman: That's okay. That's fine. And did your husband continue working then there at the same area? Sutter: No, after I got pregnant, I stayed home. And it was 1965, I think, when I went back to work. I worked for Battelle. And I worked there until I retired. Bauman: And what kind of job was that? Sutter: Well, it varied. At Battelle, you do whatever needs to be done. And I was—I've forgotten. I was working at a lab at first. And I ended up helping with quality assurance for some of the people. That was a good job. Bauman: And how long did you work there, then? Sutter: I retired in 1968. Is that right? Man one: I think it was after I got out of high school. Did you tell them about you were a wind tunnel scientist? Sutter: Oh, yeah, I worked in atmospheric sciences after some time at Battelle. And I operated a wind tunnel. And this was for—they were trying to find out how much would blow around out on the site. And so we went out and picked up samples on the dirt. And then we put measured amounts in the wind tunnel and see how far it goes and how long it stayed there, that type of information. And all this went into the environmental impact statement that they had to make when they were operating. And the annoying thing is, everybody thought my husband did that work. [LAUGHTER] It's the way it was. Bauman: When you first came in 1948 and were in the women's dorms, did you take buses to get out to the site? Sutter: Yes. But I don't remember anything. I know we had to take buses. You could not drive cars in on the site then. Oh, that's it. We took one bus, and we went up to the bus lot, and then you got on to the bus that took you out to where you were working. Quite an operation. Bauman: And when you then went back to work in the '60s, were you still taking buses? Or were you driving your own car out there? Sutter: There were still buses. I've forgotten where I was working. And then for a while, when I got transferred out to the atmospheric sciences building, the meteorological station, I rode out to that area with my husband. Because he was in 2-West at that time. He was a supervisor. Bauman: And when you started working in 1948 as a chemist, were there are a lot of other women chemists at Hanford at the time? Sutter: There were several of us, about five or six—I mean, considering all, yes. Bauman: So you lived in Richland for a while, got married, then you moved to Kennewick. Is that right? Sutter: Yes. Bauman: Okay. One of events that happened, I know, was in 1963, President Kennedy came to dedicate the N Reactor. Do you remember that at all? Sutter: Oh, I remember it. I took my three children out there with me. I was not working then, and then we drove out there. And all I can remember is this one over here, she ran away. And I decided I wasn't going to even be worried about her, because I wanted to see Kennedy. He was quite a charismatic person. And Paul was there, too. We were all there. And I have another daughter, too. Bauman: Do you remember much about the day itself? Sutter: It was about 80 degrees. Oh, and I can remember Kennedy was so surprised when he started the reactor with a probe of some kind. A lot of traffic. Took me a long time to get home. My husband had gone out there. Everybody who worked there went there on buses, and so he got home way long time before I did. [LAUGHTER] It was well attended. Bauman: Do you remember any other events or incidents, things that happened when you either were working at Hanford or living in the area here? Sutter: I can't think of any right now. Man one: What about your dorm social clubs? Sutter: My what? Man one: The social clubs in the dorm? Sutter: Oh, yeah, we belonged to the dorm club. That's the one that we went someplace every weekend. That's just the dorm club. Oh, and they had dances in town, too. In fact, I think I brought over a picture of one of those if you—you can have them. Bauman: Great. Man one: The Sadie Hawkins Day dance. Sutter: They don't have Sadie Hawkins anymore. Bauman: They do, actually. Sutter: Do they? Bauman: The high schools do. Sutter: Okay, but we were all just a little bit older. But you just had to make your own entertainment. And that was a good one. Bauman: So did you and your husband meet at work? Sutter: Yes. Bauman: At the 300 Area? Sutter: Actually in 300 Area. Oh, and another thing we used to do is everybody drank beer. We'd go out by the Yakima River and drink beer after work in the evening, swing shift or something. It was just fun. Bauman: Mm-hm. So you've seen a lot of change in the time that you-- Sutter: Oh, my Lord, yes. Bauman: Obviously one change that happened at Hanford was a shift from production to cleanup. Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit. Sutter: Well, all I did was run the wind tunnel. We generated information so they could do the environmental impact statement before they started doing something out there. And we'd go out in the field, and I know they had picked up all kind of material to run through the wind tunnel to see what happened to it. Bauman: I know there was a lot of emphasis on security at Hanford and secrecy. Can you talk about that at all, what that was like? Sutter: It was pretty straightforward. You had a badge, and you had to show it every time you went in and out. And it went pretty easily. Bauman: Were you able to talk about your work at all? Sutter: You weren't supposed to. But it wasn't interesting work, so I didn't want to talk about it anyway. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what about the community itself? How did that change over the years? Sutter: Well, the community, they built the ranch houses. And we got a lot of bad dust storms then. And I was home with children, and you just don't get out in the community much. There wasn't much here that’s all. Man one: Mom? Sutter: Yes? Man one: Did you ever talk about an incident, I guess you were down on the river and security came out to see what you were doing or something like that? Sutter: I don't remember anything like that. Man one: Oh, okay. I thought I—Or boating or something and the army showed up? Woman one: Well, there was a-- Sutter: You should have prepped me for this. Woman one: Wasn't there a military base, too? Sutter: A what? Woman one: A military base out there, Camp Hanford? Sutter: Well, yeah, Camp Hanford was there for a while, yeah. I don't remember. I wasn't working when it was Camp Hanford. I can remember baking a cake for the soldiers. That's about it. Bauman: Oh, did you? Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: Was there a specific reason for baking a cake? Sutter: Oh, I belonged to a club. And that was their project that they were on, and so I've participated, just once that I can remember. We lived in a B house. Oh, and all the coal was furnished free, coal furnace in the basement. [LAUGHTER] You don't know about those. My husband called it the iron monster because you'd have to bang it so it would start the next morning. He was on shift work, and it's not the best way to go. Bauman: So were you renting the B house then? Sutter: You paid some rent. There was nominal rent. It was cheap. And as I remember, they furnished the coal. And if something happened, you just called down, like my dear son, he's flushed potatoes down the toilet. And you'd call somebody, and the plumber comes out immediately and takes care of it. Man one: And what did you do that night for dinner? Sutter: I gave you potato soup. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So a lot of the service or repair work was-- Sutter: It was done by somebody. They were just like a landlord. But you had to mow the lawn and water it. Bauman: You had to take care of yard, that sort of thing. So how long did your husband work at Hanford then? Sutter: Until he retired. I think he worked there for 50 years. No, not that long. Woman one: Well, if he was working in '76 when I was in high school. Sutter: Yeah, I don't remember how long. But he worked there until he retired. It was a good job. You could move from job to job at that time because it was all under one contractor. And he worked in 2 East and 2 West as well as I think North Richland. Bauman: So what was the most challenging--was there any part of your work that you did at Hanford that you would think was sort of the most challenging thing that you did or the most rewarding? Sutter: I think the most fun was just before I retired. It was when I was running a wind tunnel, and it was out in 2 East Area in an old evaporator building. I remember there were just the two of us. I was there with a technician, and we had a wind tunnel. And all these things that we’d gathered out on the terrain, we'd put them in the wind tunnel to see what they were going to do and how far they would go. And then this was put into a report that I wrote. And the annoying thing is, everybody thought my husband wrote it. Because they just put it with your initials. Bauman: What were the findings of that report? Do you remember what did you-- Sutter: I have no idea. It didn't matter to us. This much went along, and if you're a researcher, you just give them the results. I think they were able to do all the work anyway. But it was fun. You'd go out, and you'd gather up these—there were rabbits out there. And they liked to sit on top of the hills. And so that was a rich place to get samples. Research is really fun work. Because it doesn't matter. You get an answer. And that's the answer. If they don't like it, that's their problem. Bauman: Overall, then, how was Hanford as a place to work? Sutter: Well, I unfortunately had a manager—I shouldn't--he was Mormon. And he didn't think women should be working. However, the next level up really believed in women. So he's the one that--I was treasurer for the local ACS. And I wanted to go to the meeting in Hawai’i. And my immediate manager wouldn't let me, but the next one up sent me. When you're an officer, they usually will let you go to something like that. So that's how I got to Hawai’i. I figure all the men do it, and so I was trying to do the same thing. Bauman: That's a good place to go for a conference. Sutter: Yeah, oh, yes. One of the women from another contractor was there, and she even came to the meetings in her bathing suit, if came at all. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: When was this about that you did that? Sutter: Well, I was still working, so I don't really-- Bauman: The '60s? Sutter: Yeah. I can't remember that long ago. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet or that you haven't talked about that you think is important to talk about? Sutter: No, I can't think of anything. Man one: What was it like being a woman and working in this area, predominantly male? Sutter: Well, that didn't bother me except some of them are prejudiced against women. And actually, when I was out, we had the lab out where the wind tunnel in 2 East. And the fellow I worked with was really good. He was a farmer from over in Pasco. He raised apples. But he would just do anything that needed to be done. It didn't matter whether you were a woman or man. He'd do anything. Oh, the funny thing about that is the building that we had, they had a restroom in it. And they didn't have a door on it. So my manager had them put a door in it. But they put a door in it with a window. [LAUGHTER] So they had to change the door. Bauman: That didn't help a whole lot, did it? Sutter: No, but there were just the two of us working there. We had to report over to the Atmospheric Sciences building and then drive over to where the wind tunnel was. Bauman: Oh, I see, okay. Woman one: Mom, you shared with me the difficulty at getting a raise, the difficulty getting a raise in pay. Bauman: Did you have difficulty getting a raise? Sutter: Oh, yeah. My manager said the raise is--this is more than I wanted to give you. He wanted the raises for the men, because they have a family to take care of. He doesn't realize I have all these kids to take care of, too, and one daughter who went on to college and is now an engineer out there. Bauman: Were you able to get the raise? Sutter: Oh, yeah, oh, yes. You have to be persistent. Bauman: Do you happen to remember what your salary was, say, when you started in 1948 at all? Sutter: It's about $100 a week. I don't really remember. It was adequate for the time. Bauman: Do you remember any other challenges being a woman working there in the 1940s and 1960s? Sutter: Well, like that this one manager who just didn't believe in women. Bauman: But you said the person above him-- Sutter: Just fine person, yeah. And that's always helpful. Bauman: Right. I don't think I have any more questions for you. Man one: Oh, excuse me. What was it like raising us kids in an area that didn't have a lot of support services and it was just all your contemporaries and nobody had any relatives in town or anything like that? Sutter: I never thought about it. Man one: It was what it was and you just coped with it? Sutter: Yeah. Oh, and then I remember we babysat back and forth. I remember my friend Dusty was babysitting and Paul, all he'd do is hide in the closet. [LAUGHTER] That was a long time ago. Bauman: But you'd find ways to help each other out? Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: Take care of the kids. Woman one: And Dad was from--where was Dad from? New York? Man one: Yeah, he went to University of Buffalo and was recruited out there. Bauman: So you mentioned you went to Washington State College. Where were you from initially? When did you grow up? Sutter: I was grown up in Seattle. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sutter: And I went to college starting in home economics, and that's a dumb major. They don't give you anything challenging. And the only thing I liked the first year was chemistry, and that's why I majored in that. Man one: I was curious. I kind of recalled once hearing a story about the way you met Dad was you accidentally left some battery acid on a stool or something like this? And it left a stain on his pants? Sutter: I don't remember anything like that. No, he was just out there in the same lab. And then he was in this group that went on trips. He was one with a car! Man one: So that made him popular? Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: So he went on some of these trips. You were part of the group? Sutter: Yeah. Oh, we went down to Lost Lake in Oregon. I can remember that. And I knew Steve Buckingham. We were up there. Snow was on the ground. And he went in the water. And he said, it's warm! I can remember that one. Man one: How many people would go on the trips? Sutter: Yeah. Man one: I mean, it was like four or five? Sutter: Yeah, about that, because you just had cars. You didn't have anything big. There were no buses or anything taking you. Woman one: So lack of family support, you built some really good friendships that you still have now. Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: About how often did you go on these trips? Sutter: Oh, I'd say once a month or something. There was various degrees. It depends on what came to mind, what the people wanted. Man one; What about the one where you left town and you got someplace and set up camp in the middle the night and Steve Buckingham found a-- Sutter: Oh, yeah, we were going over to Orcas Island. That was where we were going. And so we camped near Anacortes, and it was dark. And when we woke up, we found we camped in the garbage dump. [LAUGHTER] We went on our trip. Bauman: That's a great story. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories. And we're going to go ahead and make copies of the photos that you brought in. Sutter: Oh, yeah, they're over there. I don't know. A lot of them you don't want. Man one: Oh, I don't know. There's a lot of them that were-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:58 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 3706 building 200 west area 200 east area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1948-1968 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Buckingham, Steve Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Sutter Description An account of the resource An interview with Sue Sutter conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-7-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item." Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-07: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 200 Area 300 Area Building 3706 Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdb714eb8d8af5be33e073536fd17169c.jpg e55e4b7cf327dc0066589efabaeb5c28 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2c61ccb81c1d241e7db21d35f880460f.mp4 298b9aae8aac97fb3171e3ee0b45a7b5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sather, Virginia Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sather_Virginia Man one: Yes. I’m recording. And okay. Robert Bauman: Okay. We're going to go ahead and get started. I thought we'd start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Virginia Sather: Virginia Sather--S-A-T-H-E-R. Bauman: Thank you. My name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is October 16th, 2013. And we're recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me what brought you to Hanford, when you came here, why you came. Sather: Well, I was working at a Navy hospital near Los Angeles, California in what they called ship service. It's a PX in the Army. And I was more or less recruited to work in the PX at Hanford Recreation Building, and in that building, they had a beer hall, and a soda fountain, and a ten-pin bowling alley, and the PX. Just kind of a service place where everything was based on the Army. The barracks and mess halls, it was all Army language. I'd been used to Navy language. And I called my sister, and I was telling her about it in Des Moines, Iowa where I was born and raised, and oh, she said, that sounds good. They told us they'd pay our way out. And your room and board would be furnished in your pay. And if you stayed at least four months, you got your way paid back. So we thought, well, we could try for four months. Her husband had just been in the Medical Corps, and he'd been in the European theater. And at that time, they were sending some European theater people over to the Japanese theater, and she was going to be alone anyway, maybe ‘til the end of the war. So she said well, let's do it. So that's what we did. So we came into to Pasco in the middle of the night with the train. Next morning, came out to--taken out to Hanford and processed and all. Just everything, just click, click, click. And we got used to standing in line for everything. And I don't mean a little line. I mean like lines we'd never seen before--blocks long. One grocery store, one drugstore, one Sears order office. Just one of anything for 50,000, 60,000 people. That would be like having one of everything in Kennewick. So I don't know, we just--her husband—then his orders were changed, as sometimes happen in the military, at the last minute, he's actually on a ship going over to the Pacific area. And they changed, and he was sent back to the States. So she stayed her four months. By that time, she got this notice. And so she left, so I was on my own by then. And I just thought, well, I'll just stick it out because it's a pretty good job, and I met my husband-to-be, and I don't know. We kept thinking, well, when the war's over, we'll be laid off. The time came and went, and we didn't get laid off. And they shut down some reactors, and we said well, we're going to be laid off. At that time, I was working in a fuels production section for N Reactor and my husband was the manager in fuels production for the older reactors, what they called the Al-Si fuels. So we said, we're going to be laid off. They shut down the reactors, but they just took the Al-Si people and transferred them over to my section and I'm the one that got laid off. Other people got laid off. But I didn't actually get laid off, because we were on an excess list, and there was another opening in research and development. So I went there, and something—and then they dismantled that in three years. So then I went out to the N Reactor. So I was actually in several reactor areas and all the production separations areas. So when one door closed, another one opened up, and I just was flexible enough to go with the flow. And here I am, 40 years later. Well actually, I worked 40 years, so it's 70 years later because I've been retired for 30 years. Bauman: Do you remember your first impressions when you--coming from Los Angeles to Pasco and Richland? Sather: Well, of course, the area surrounding Los Angeles is actually a semi-desert. And of course, everything was dug up, so there was just dust, dust everywhere, just heavy equipment everywhere—the whole 600 square miles. And there was a lack of a lot to do because the hospital where I worked was about 40 miles. It'd been a former country club when the Navy took it over. And had indoor pools, outdoor pools, golf course, and the whole nine yards, so there was lots to do. And on the weekends, we'd go into LA or wherever, Hollywood, everywhere, sometimes clear to San Diego if we could--transportation was very scarce during the war. Find somebody who had gas and hitch a ride. [LAUGHTER] And yeah, that was my first impression. I guess I was like most people. I must've missed something when I was in my geography class in grade school, because I, like a lot of people, I was looking for forests and mountains. But I was used to flat-flat coming from Iowa. But of course, there was lots of woods in Iowa. I guess being young--I don't know. What was I? 21, 20, 21. I guess I was 21. Yeah, I was very flexible. I had changed jobs different times before. I guess I was kind of adventuresome for those times. Sometimes the older people criticized me because by the time I was 21, I'd been in several states. One summer, my cousin and her husband had a carnival that went all over the South and Midwest, and they took me on one summer and I travelled with that carnival. So I just got used to making do, also just making do, not expecting any luxuries, places to stay, or anything like that. So it was primitive. The barracks were just bare floors and cots and a washroom. They were H shaped, so the cross in the center was the wash rooms and the barbed wire all around. Looked more like a prison camp, actually. I know when we moved to Richland and they had a Prisoner-of-War camp out on the Yakima River near the dam, Horn Rapids, near there. And we went to Benton City by way of that road one time, and we saw that, and I said, oh, look. It looks like the Hanford—[LAUGHTER]—original Hanford. Yeah, it's kind of primitive, but I think young people nowadays may be kind of spoiled. I don't know whether they would really put up with that, what we put up with then. Bauman: You said you were sort of recruited. What were you told about Hanford? Did you know what was being worked on? Sather: Well, actually, they talked to me first about Alaska. And then even before I talked to my sister about it, a recruiter called me and said, oh, the weather has been so bad out there, they put a stop to everything for a while. But I've got this place that's just as good in eastern Washington. And there's going to be a lot of young people. It turned out, there was a lot of old people, too, because the middle type people were in the army or in the military. And of course, there was probably 100 men to every female. There were just very few women. And mostly because of the housing, because a lot of women in those days would be married by that time. And if they came, it was the same situation. You still had to be separated in the barracks. And the men didn't like that at all, so they'd go to Yakima or Walla Walla or someplace searching for housing. But the women liked it, because the housekeeping was all done for you. The beds were made, the linens were changed, the bathroom was cleaned, and you had the mess hall, all the food you wanted at the mess hall. I think the women really liked it. Of course, I was not married and didn't have any children, but the ones that did, I think they thought it was kind of a vacation. Bauman: And how long did you stay in the dormitories then—or the barracks? Sather: Well, the dormitories were in Richland, so-- Bauman: Oh, the barracks-- Sather: Yeah, we can't say dormitories because they weren't that fancy. They were built in Richland for the operation people. That's where people's going to stay. They must have opened in '45 down on Lee Boulevard. One of the buildings is still there on the corner across from the Federal Building. That was the cafeteria. Then they all down Lee and Knight Street where they had the post office and the bank. They were two-story dormitories, and I never lived in there because by that time, I was married. So then we were assigned to a house in Richland. Bauman: How long were you in the women's barracks then? Sather: Oh, '43, '44. Pretty close to two. We closed out Hanford like about, well, right after the war was over. We got our house in '44, and I know I was commuting for a while to Hanford, probably a year and a half. And then we got a house—couldn't get any houses ‘til probably late '44. We got a house in Richland, and we were there ten years, and then we built the house in Kennewick up by the mall, and we've been there ever since. Bauman: You said you met your husband here. How did the two of you meet and where was he working? Sather: Well, people laugh when they hear this story. I have one girlfriend still left from my graduating class, same age I am. She lives out in Manhattan Beach. So when I was in California, she'd gone out with her folks after high school because of the airplane factories, and so we kept in touch. And I saw a lot of her and everything, and she asked my husband about it one time. She asked him, she said, what did you like about Ginger—I was known as Ginger—when you first met her? And he said her spirit, her spirit! And Betty Jean said, have you got enough spirit yet? He said, just about. I think we'd been married about 50 years by then and now we're coming up on 70 now. But I don't know. I was on an afternoon shift at that time, and afternoon shift, we went to--we worked six days, ten to 12 hour days. Supposed to be ten, but people didn't show up. They were gone. People just disappeared. The rules and everything was so strict and security was so strict. Even after we moved into Richland, neighbors would just disappear, especially if they had unruly children. Any little infraction or anything like that, you could disappear. And the FBI, they had total control. It was really like some third world country there for a long while until the city was sold in '58. Your boss or the top guy in DuPont or General Electric, United Nuclear, they could not—caught with a weapon or drinking or any type of malfeasance, I mean, you just disappeared. I mean, no 30 day notice or anything. Looked up, the house was empty. Or maybe you'd look out and see a moving van. Yeah, it was strict. Well anyway, we would have a ten or 12 hour shift. So they had eight mess halls. They could serve 5,000 people in each one of those at a time, and the only one that was 24 hours was number eight. So usually, you'd go with some of your coworkers there after your shift. So he was there. There'd been a guy about age and my father who would come in when it was spare time. He'd talk to me there at the register, at the PX. And he kept telling me, I've got this roommate, this fellow, he's about your age. And I think you should meet him. And I kept thinking, oh my God. What's he trying to pawn off on me? And he kept it up and kept it up, and I kept telling him I was busy or I was booked up or something, anything. But anyway, I got caught dead. He came over to my table at this mess hall in the middle of the night at the end of the shift. I think we got off at midnight that night. And he came dragging this poor guy over. You could tell he didn't want to come. He just had a hold of him and actually pulling him over, and my husband's 6'3" and 189 pounds. [LAUGHTER] And this guy, Reardon, his name was Reardon, he says, this is Dick Sather, and I told him you wanted to meet him. Oh, I'm telling you, it was a good thing there was the rules. And so I said, not particularly. And he went on and so, well he said, well don't you want him to just sit down and visit with you? I said, not particularly. I remember everything he said. People still tease me about it. Not particularly. And my husband the same coloring that I am, but his face still turned red. And of course, he didn't know what to do, young, naive boy. He's six months older than I am. Anyway, so the next time they both came over to my register--and of course they bought some, I don't know, shaving lotion or something. Anyway, so then my husband started coming in. Then it graduated till we went over and sat down in the soda pop place and had soda pop and visited. Well, that went on for about three weeks, and I didn't find out till very much later that my husband-to-be was dating a gal, and he was booked up for this time. And so he was just playing it cool till he could get rid of this other gal, evidently. So anyway, I found that out. Even after I was married, this guy who got us together told me that. And so then we started, if you could call it dating when somebody drops you off in the middle of the night at a barbed wire fence with a guard. They had buses going to Walla Walla, Pasco, and Yakima, and it cost you a nickel. And they said they had to charge that because of the insurance rules. So on your day off--which usually, we got one day off--we would go, see a movie, have dinner and go back to our barracks, and it went like that. And so he bought me a ring. I think it was in March. I met him in January, I think, December. It might have been December, I think. And we were engaged, and then we married--but I didn't want to get married. He said, when do you want to get married? I said, about 30. I was thinking about 30. So then he started talking about, well, he was going to go to Alaska and all this, that and the other. So we had it set for May. My mother-in-law for years still sent my anniversary card in May, but they actually got married in June because they changed the date twice. We got married in June, so in coming June, I'll be married 70 years. Bauman: Wow. Sather: But that's how we met, and that's just the opposite of me. I'm a class A, he's a class B. He's mostly Norwegian and he's pretty laid back. He's one of these, whatever. Whatever you want. Do what you want. Yeah, it's worked out very well, and he's not here with me now because he's lost his memory. Because he could tell you some tales, too. Bauman: You talked about the buses going to Yakima and Walla Walla for entertainment. And was there ever entertainment on the site at all? Sather: No, no. But the surrounding communities did not cater to us at all. You know now, you go to a convention or some big thing in the town, have sale signs and discounts at the restaurants and do everything to welcome you. No, they were very, very provincial. Well, so many of them either got displaced or knew or had a relative or somebody who was displaced because these towns were just seven miles apart. And the families in those times were practically incestuous. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I mean, they just were cousins and aunts and uncles. And I had to be careful because I might be talking to the wrong person. [LAUGHTER] But no, no. Although they tried to make all the money they could, divided their house--just like they did in California and still do--to illegal housing, turn the garage into a room and did everything to make money off of you. They didn't turn any of that down. But no, the natives, they were not friendly. A lot of people remarked on that. We were intruders, and I can see their point of view--we were. Tearing up their land, their orchards, and their vineyards, and their little mint fields, which is all the world to them. People back in those days had never really been out of the county. People didn't travel till the wartime. They didn't marry outside. Of course, with the wartime, they not only married people from another state, they married them from another country. But my time, of course, that was just unheard of ‘til wartime. And the only ones that were halfway decent that could think outside the box enough to see that it was for the war effort, even though they didn't know what it was. They just took it in their stride. But by and large, we later got personally acquainted and socially visited with some of the old timers here that the John Dam Plaza, the John Hazel Dam. He actually came from Norway, but he'd lived here most of his life. He came here as a young man, but there were several people like that. He had a store, a general store, there on George Washington Way. And I found out that this went on all over where people were displaced with--maybe not on that scale, but I mean, an airplane factory went in, or a shipyard went in, or something was expanded, and they got displaced because the government had the right of domain. And I think during the war, the President had all the executive powers that were ever heard of. Bauman: You mentioned that at some point, you were able to get a house. Sather: Yeah. Bauman: Where was that, in Richland? Or what sort of housing were you able to get then? Sather: We got a house. It was a prefab, and I got--I think I gave them to the historical society down at the museum—where they came in sections, I think from Portland. And we were in that a little while, and I got up--it was December 1st. Turned out to be the coldest day of the year. And I smelled smoke. And they had heaters in the wall, 220 heaters in the wall. And then they had 220 wiring that ran inside a wood. Everything was plywood, and it was treated with a propellant, a subtype varnish or something. So it really went up fast. So then we got a pre-cut. And pieces like trusses and all were made in Spokane in a mill, and then came down and put together, there are not very many of those. One was two-bedroom and one was three-bedroom, so we were in that for a while till we built our house, five years I guess until we built our house. But when they did the fire investigation, we found out that's what it was, was electrical. I went in to grab some stuff out of the closets, and we didn't have closet doors, so we just had drapes across there—and they were on fire. But I just overreacted and I grabbed the hangers, which in those days were all wire, and I had blisters all over my hands, and all my hair in the front, my eyebrows were burnt off. So then we got this other house, this precut. And then the investigator came to us and showed us that. And then we went around all those prefabs and rewired them all after that. Because they said the houses they rewired, they found scorch marks in there. So there could've been a lot more fires. Yeah, yeah. So your name, your name just kind of came up. A lot of it was supposed to be your position. When they built the stick houses out here on the north end and right here, Harris Street, where they ended. When they started up there in up town, they started building--well up there about by Jefferson School, they started past there, building stick houses. They all went to management or up here on here, Harris. And in '58, when they sold the land, all that land was bare out there. And mostly, people who got the land--maybe they could afford it. I don't know why, but a lot of them said it was politics. But it was dentists and doctors and lawyers, but it was known--Davidson and Harrison, these streets out here--they were known as Pill and Drill Hill because of the doctors and the dentists out there. So a lot of it was by your position. A lot of it's the size of the family. And a lot of it, I think, just political, who you knew. You knew somebody in housing office. You really had it made. But your name would come up on a list, and they'd give you like three places to look at. Then you'd choose one. Bauman: When did you find out exactly what Hanford's purpose was, that it was involved in production of-- Sather: Well, I was at work and—I don't remember now who it was. I was working in security at that time. I worked in security two different times early on. And then when they had the expansion and built what they called the Cold War reactors, they were going to have to process thousands of construction workers and support services out at North Richland, so I moved out there to North Richland and processed—Atkinson-Jones was the prime contractor, process all these people. So I was downtown with my first security job. The building's been torn down since. It was down in the region of the Federal Building next to the 703 Building that we also had at the Federal Building. I think it was my boss, Roy James, came in and said--and then people kind of didn't quite believe him at first there in the offices. And then, of course, I saw the newspapers--or at first, the local paper, The Villager. And it didn't really surprise people too much. I think after they heard--especially if you transferred around a bit—well, I know I was told I ask too many questions. Bauman: So you worked in security a couple different times. What other sorts of jobs did you have? Sather: Well first, when I went out there, my very first at the rec hall at Hanford, I was classified as a clerk. And then, let's see, where did I go from there? Oh, yeah. And then of course, then I was moved down to Richland for security. And then I went to 300 Area to instrument division. Then I went out to the hog and dog farm. When Battelle came and took over the Hanford laboratories--and I was in the laboratory building, I wasn't in the reactor building. That was F Reactor. They put up a big welcome sign there by the gate to F Area, and it said, welcome Baa-ttelle because they had so many sheep out there. They were testing. Well, then I asked for a transfer out of that because I started getting nauseated. And you know I was up there where they opened these—just like the steam would, like they just kind of boil these rats and stuff. They were trying to find out how much of that contamination would be in the bones. They had doctors, vets there, and everything like that. And I kept telling my supervisor, I don't think I can do this. And oh, he said, it's probably something else. Well, I was going out to the bus area, picking up the bus every morning, and it was in May, so I wasn't wearing a coat--because May can be pretty hot here--and I could see these other workers looking at my abdomen, and I think they thought it was morning sickness. But it wasn't to be for a long time. But anyway, I knew what he was thinking. And every area had a first aid station. Well, I'd go over to the first aid station. And I put off going out there, because you had to dress. You had booties and white coat and all that on. And I said, I get out in that fresh air and I'm fine, and I go back in—it was on the fourth floor. Well, after I left there, sometime after, I guess enough people complain that they change their ventilation system. But I know that's what it was, because I'm just kind of sensitive to scents anyway. Bauman: And so what task did you have there? Sather: Oh, well, of course they had all these precious metals, and they had gold, and they had silver, and they had alcohol. And all the supplies, everything. I even ordered dogs from the pound in Yakima. Had to be a certain size. And pigs—we had to have pigs a certain size. Just supplies. What did they call me? Buyer, yeah. But I had to keep track of all this, and they audited me on it. And because it wouldn't be past people to try to take alcohol, particularly. So all the supplies, ether, all kinds of stuff. And of course, your regular office supplies, medical supplies, all that kind of stuff. So I did that. Then I got transferred out of there. And I went out to 200 Areas to the separations building. And I was a secretary there. And then when I went out to BC Reactor, N Reactor, and research and development, all those places, I was executive secretary. I went to night school, CBC. And then I was an administrative assistant, and then I retired. I was a specialist, education training and development. Wrote training manuals and conducted training. Made overhead displays and stuff like that. So I was just kind of a Jack—Jill of all trades. Bauman: Yes. You had a number of different positions, and yeah. Sather: Oh, yeah. Well, they just asked me if I could do it, and when I said yes, and then I'd run home and call anybody I knew and say, how do you do this? Brush up on it and-- Bauman: Of the different positions you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most, that you really enjoyed, or maybe one that was sort of most difficult that are challenging? Sather: Well, I forgot the two in between. I was in employee relations, and they wanted somebody to go to labor relations who was not connected with any union member. This was during the strike. I believe it was '63. It was a three-month strike of all the craftspeople. Those were trying times. And of course, nowadays with all the technology, it's hard to believe how they operated back then. But the union would get a proposal, type it up, take it to the employee relations people, and they'd study it, and send back an answer, and back and forth, and back and forth. So I really for the first time in a long time was working overtime, because they would be meeting long into the night sometimes. And I guess I was one of the few women who wasn't connected. I know all my friends, most of them were married to craftspeople, and my husband was a manager of maintenance at that time. So anyway, I did that until end of that—that was a temporary assignment. But then that's I guess how I got into the education training and development, because that was part of employee relations. So I was pretty flexible. And also in my studies, I learned that when you work long time a place, they're not going to get--they said three years. They're not going to get much more out of you, and you're not going to get much more out of them. In other words, you're going to get complacent. You're not going to grow that much. And along as far as any place was at PUREX. That was the newest separations plant. I was there six years. And I left there. The boss got mad at me, because he was on vacation when I took the job out at the BC Reactor. But they had a little thing going on. When jobs would come up, they didn't want you to move. They'd never tell you about it. There was no posting. Now posting is required, and we finally got posting to be required. Well, the man who took his place, when he was on vacation, he came back from a staff meeting. And when he came back from a staff meeting, he had me type up his meeting minutes for him so he could turn them over to my boss when he came back after two weeks. Well, I said, I'd like to interview for this job. It was a one rate hire because—that was another thing; your job was tied in with your manager's rate. You couldn't advance if you stayed with the same person unless he advanced. And there was a time or two when my boss advanced and I advanced with him, but normally, you're just stuck. It doesn't have anything to do with your job description or anything. Now, for the exempt people, it was different. They had a bunch of requirements, and it was all rated, and so many points signed, this and that and the other, and you'd be at level 12. Almost like the federal ratings. You'd be at level 12, or 15, or whatever. But the people working for them, the non-exempt people working for them, no. So anyway, I went out there and interviewed, and he said, well, you've got the job. And I said, well don't you have other people interviewing? He said yes, but he said I'm giving you the job. And I said, well. Then he said, I'm going to take you down the hall and introduce you to the rest of my staff. I said--of course I had been training managers for a long time--I said, you can't do that. You're going to have to go ahead and either interview or not interview or something. You can't just all of a sudden drop this on people. Oh, he said, thank you. He's the boss I had to change a lot of his letters. He was Scotch, and he had this temper, and he'd fire off letters and everything, and I'd put them in the bottom drawer. Sometimes I wouldn't even transcribe them. They'd lay there for a while. Sometimes he'd come in and say, what about that letter to that dude over in such and such an area? I said, oh, I've been so busy. I just haven't got around to it yet. Oh, he said, thank you, thank you. Because usually, he'd fire it off to somebody that he shouldn't have, somebody at a higher level. He was so funny. But anyway, I got that job. And then after that, after the civil rights legislation and all this equality and all this business, these federal jobs had to put quarterly reports into some committee in Washington, DC about what they were doing to even the playing field. And here they were saying they were posting jobs and they were doing this and that and the other. And just imagine these people typing up these reports and sending them in and everything, knowing a lot of it was a big lie. So finally, they revolted. And they were so scared they were going to join the union that they would do most anything to keep the white collar people out of the union. So finally, they changed it and started posting the jobs. But before that, it was just quite a bit about who you knew, or who you happened to run into, or maybe just by the grapevine to find an opening. So they had to quit doing that. But I thought, here these people, a lot of them have Master's and PhDs. How stupid can they be? Don't they think we read what we type up? [LAUGHTER] It was so funny. It was so funny. There was enough levity from time to time to make it interesting. There were practical jokes and things like that that went on. Bauman: Earlier, you talked about the emphasis on security. You worked on security and secrecy and you talked about the FBI having a presence. Were you all aware of that? I mean, it was a real focus, and-- Sather: We got reminded all the time. And all the war plants in the room my friend there I'm talking about in California who worked a long time for Hughes Aircraft, they had big signs up and everything about the enemy’s listening and all that kind of stuff, and pictures, and little cartoons. And yeah, you were just reminded of it in a subtle fashion all the time. But now, just like when I married, I looked up one day and there were two FBI men there standing at my desk. I think I was coming back from the lunchroom and they were waiting for me. And they start questioning me, and I said, well I never planned to change my name. Of course, that was unheard of. Back then--I mean, it's common now. But they said, well, you know there's a law. You're going to have to change it. Well, I'd already researched it. Not that I'm smarter than the FBI, but I think you should get your facts before you expose yourself. And there never was a law. It was like something borrowed, something blue. It was tradition. So I said show me the law. So then they came back again a little bit later, and said, you're going to have to change your name. I don't know what they got all excited about because my husband worked here and had clearance and everything. And I said, well, it's not the law. And they said, no, but it's our policy and it's job requirement. I said, well, when I hired in, I didn't see any such requirement on my papers. They said, well, it's there now. [LAUGHTER] So I let it go for a while, and my husband said, oh, don't hassle it. Don't worry about it. He said, I know your name's as good as my name. He said, don't hassle it. So I guess he thought he might get fired. So anyway, I changed my name, changed my badge and all. I had to fill out umpteen papers again, the personnel security questionnaire. Everybody had to fill out seven copies. You remember--you wouldn't know of trying to make seven copies on a manual typewriter, carbon paper. You had to start wearing dresses that were either navy blue or black because you'd get this carbon all over you. It was something else. So that's my closest encounter with the FBI. Bauman: You also earlier talked about how during the war, there--bare bones. There really wasn't any entertainment, and the town wasn't necessarily especially welcoming. Did that change after the war? Did-- Sather: Yes, I think they knew what side their bread was buttered on, so to speak. They knew that in the long run, it was good for the communities. Yeah, I think so, because I know we mixed a lot more with it. And of course, they had their stores that you had to trade at. It just wasn't that many places to shop, and you couldn't just jump in the car and go to Spokane or Seattle because where were you going to get your gas stamps? When we were in the trailer, we ran the stove that took white gas. And my husband had a '39 Ford Coupe V8. So we're eating at the mess hall, I mean, we weren't really cooking. So we were putting the white gas allotment into this Ford, and it just about hopped up. Yeah. But we never got enough to go any great distance. Bauman: Where did you go shopping locally? Sather: Well, we could get the bus and go to Pasco. There was a lot of nice stores in Pasco at that time. They were like men's stores—weren't any department stores—men's stores, and lady's stores, and children's stories, like every little small town has. And same way with the Kennewick. Well, we went to Yakima. And actually, we didn't shop like you would imagine in your time because where you going to put it? Because we're more or less transient for quite a while. And also, they just weren't things available. Maybe they weren't rationed, but they just weren't available because the federal projects and the military had the priority. I was bumped from a train between LA and Fresno, and my brother from the first Marines came back from the Pacific. My sister—I was visiting in LA at the time, and I went to my sister’s at Fresno. And we got bumped. We were going to 'Frisco, and he was coming in at 'Frisco. Well, actually, he came into San Diego where the marine base was at Camp Pendleton. But then he got a ride some buddy up to San Francisco. And when he was overseas, he was on a Browning Automatic Rifle, BAR, and it's a two man thing. And he had promised his buddies that he, if anybody was lost, he would visit their next of kin. And he had a list of 22 names in the four plus years that he was in the first Marines that he lost that could've been him. And two of them were in San Francisco, and so that's why he ended up in San Francisco. So we picked him up, come to my place, and stayed about a month. And then he went all around the country, visited these next of kin that he'd promised. Bauman: So overall, how would you describe your years working at Hanford? Sather: Oh, I think it was a good thing. I think it was good for us. I learned a lot, did a lot of different type of jobs. And the climate was much better than Des Moines, Iowa, I'll tell ya. And the companies, overall, have been good to us. We were with DuPont first and General Electric and then United Nuclear. It's been very broadening, I'll say that. We met people from all over, just all over. And allowed us to raise our family and have a nice home, and a good retirement, and I would do it over again. Not at this age, but at 21, it was easy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Is there anything else that stands out in your mind from your time working at Hanford, or anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about it? Sather: Well, it wasn't all as stringent as it sounds. We just kind of laughed about a lot of it. Of course, we really aren't allowed to criticize much, because it just wasn't nice to do that with the war on. I had four brothers in the service. And my dad had been in the Navy in World War I. And you just kind of, well—after Pearl Harbor, the people supported the government very, very well. Before that, when England was in the midst of it and it was back and forth about whether United States would get into it, and it was—really there was no question about it after Pearl Harbor. And so most people felt we were attacked, and they felt you had to do what you had to do. I've never supported a war since then, I guess because we weren't attacked. But I feel now, now that we've been attacked again with the 9/11—I think which took as many people as Pearl Harbor. I think Pearl Harbor was about 2,500 or something like that. That other one plane went into the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania field I think was about 3,000. Yeah. Overall, I know there was critics, primarily over on the west side. And I know they visited over here, and they have no idea that we have an operating nuclear reactor out here on the edge of town. And it was just like my friend in California. We had some friends in California, so anti-nuclear and everything. So I looked it up, and I found out that the time that he was talking about, that there were 19 operating in California alone! Over 100 in the United States. And that was probably 25, 30 years ago. And he was so surprised to think--he just thought there might be one that blew up somewhere. But it just wasn't needed, it wasn't really producing that much. But now you stop to think they'd shut down all those like you see outside of Phoenix in these large cities. What would we do? Where would we get the oil or the gas for alternate fuel? Because the populations have grown. The industries have grown. I realize there's a lot of critics. I know they come over here expecting to see us glow in the dark. But they don't mind hooking up to it whenever they get a chance. But of course, they shut it down. And Oregon shut the one they had down in Oregon, and they stopped building the ones that they were building on the other side at Elma. So I don't think they realize how dependent we are. But the same way there's critics about the dam, and what's cheaper than hydropower? But on the other hand, you go to California or Arizona and they're paying $0.15, $0.16 per kilowatt. We're paying 6.5 for electric heating here. So they envy us in a way, I think a lot of us envy. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today-- Sather: Well, you're welcome. Bauman: And thank you for sharing your experiences at Hanford. I really appreciate it. Sather: Yeah. You're a very good interviewer. Bauman: Thank you. All right. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:58 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor 300 Area 200 Area Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Virginia Sather Description An account of the resource An interview with Virginia Sather conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Missasion Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource " Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 200 Area 300 Area DuPont General Electric N Reactor https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56eeef5b00b25e194aa2a4f470d59e48.jpg 30fa2c717deffcf7d48f10470be1d34e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe3f2d449f0cc39c52e03d53b645abf9b.mp4 e2ee1049296d50c1767074c105fbd2ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sparre, Ilene Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sparre_Ilene Ilene Sparre: You know, I spoke on the radio once. In the first six--at 30 seconds, I goofed it up so bad I just relaxed and said I already look like a fool. And then I was really good. [LAUGHTER] They invited me back. You know, it was the first 30 seconds that was so bad. [LAUGHTER] Man One: I've had more than 30 seconds of bad radio in my time, so don't feel bad. [LAUGHTER] Woman One: 30 seconds is pretty good. Man One: That's excellent, really. Robert Bauman: That’s not bad, actually. That's very good. Man One: Anytime you're ready, I'm good. Bauman: Okay. Man One: Let's see. Your back light looks good. Man Two: Yeah. Looks fine. Man One: Okay. Man Two: Yep. Bauman: All right, we'll go ahead and get started then. So let's start by maybe first having you say your name and spell it for us. Sparre: Okay. I am Ilene Gans-Sparre. And Ilene is I-L-E-N-E, Gans--G-A-N-S-, and Sparre--S-P-A-R-R-E . Bauman: Great. All right, thank you. Today's date is August 28 of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start by having you tell me a little bit about your family and how your family came to Richland. What brought them here and when? Sparre: Well, my father had eight children, and we had two cousins living with us and grandma. So there was 13 of us. And he bought a farm in Richland close to Benton City on the clift. And there was a little river down there which we could walk to and fish in. It also had quicksand, which we learned to stay away from. [LAUGHTER] But it was a good place for all of us children to run around in. And, of course, he thought children was money because they could work on the farm, except, he had six girls, which kind of changed that. [LAUGHTER] But he had a dairy most of his life besides the farming. We just loved it because we had not so much rain, like on the West Coast. And we had all that sagebrush to run around in. And it was just great living out there. And of course, we did what other farmers did. We saved food for winter. We canned, we froze. We had a dirt cellar. And my dad built our house. Wasn't too good at first, but it got better. [LAUGHTER] Because there wasn't any money much. But we had a great life and lots to eat. Bauman: So where did you move from? Sparre: I think he moved from Idaho. He had inherited a piece of property. His father was 66 when he was born. And he was born in Lapwai, Idaho. And his father had gotten this property, 80 acres, for being in the Civil War. And my dad inherited that. But there wasn't any money in Idaho. There wasn't a lot of food and it was very difficult. So he managed to sell that and got this piece of property in Richland. And we built everything from scratch. Bauman: And what were your parents' names? Sparre: Ellen and Jesse Gans. Bauman: And so what sort of crops did you grow on your farm? Sparre: Actually, I remember the watermelon. I remember the potatoes and filling our dirt cellar with potatoes and onions and carrots. And then before the war, we always went to Yakima and picked hops, and got fruit and brought that back and canned it. But things changed during the war. Bauman: How so? Sparre: Okay. Well, my dad, because he had so many children, they did not want him in the army. But they made him go in the National Guard. And then he worked in the dairy on the farm during the day. And he guarded it at night. So he had to do that for two years. And in fact, he got in trouble quite a bit because he kept falling asleep while he was guarding in the middle of the night after working all day. [LAUGHTER] He got threatened with court martial a couple of times because he couldn't stay awake, you know? Bauman: Where was he guarding? Sparre: Hanford Project. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sparre: They confiscated him for that and he was pretty close to it--you know, where our property was. And when they said do this, you did it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So on your farm, on your property, what other--did you have any other buildings? Barns? Sparre: Oh, we had lots of barns for the cows, you know. And of course, back then, there wasn't milking machines. So they had to be milked by hand. And the older brothers and sisters helped my dad with the milking before they went to school and after they got home. And we were all out there working all the time. [LAUGHTER] One of my fondest memories as a child was trying to start the car. You had to crank it. And mother was trying to start it but I was only three or four and I couldn't crank it fast enough. So my other sister put her foot in on the clutch. And I put my foot on the gas. And we sit on the floor. And when mother said let go of the clutch, and give it a little gas, but keep your foot on the brake, we did it. And we got it started. [LAUGHTER] This, you know, three and four-year-old. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] What kind of car was that? Sparre: I have no idea. But it was an old Model T. Bauman: Now, did you have electricity and telephone? Sparre: It seems like, eventually, we got electricity. But we started out with candles and kerosene lamps and outhouses. We never had an inside bathroom in those days. Bauman: And what about telephones? Sparre: Oh, no. There wasn't a telephone anywhere. Anywhere around our area, there wasn't telephones, you know? I'm sure there must have been in town. But I don't think that I remember, when I was real little, there wasn't anybody to call. [LAUGHTER] The world was different then. Bauman: Do you remember who any of your neighbors were at the time? Sparre: Well, across the field, Peterson. His last name was Peterson. And he was our neighbor and my dad's best friend, which is probably why we settled there. Why we got the opportunity to buy that property. He had the farm next door. And it was very upsetting because he did get drafted in the army and he did not come home from the war. Which was very upsetting to my father because he had lost his older brother in World War I. You know so it was very meaningful to him. Bauman: Sure. Sure. Sparre: And then somewhere around the area lived the Shipleys. Claude Shipley, who was an aunt by--I mean, an uncle, by marriage. He married my dad's older sister. And his family lived around there. But where, you know, I don't know. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What sort of irrigation did you have for your crops? Do you know? Sparre: Well, the river was there. And somehow, my dad knew enough about old world irrigation. There was no ditches or anything, but he knew how to get the water from the river to the plants. I don't know how, but it's funny. A lot of those things were passed down from generation to generation that, nowadays, people just don't know. But he did know. Bauman: So you mentioned your father working for the National Guard at Hanford. Was your family able to stay on their land? Sparre: On our land. We were until--when they had the accident. Some radiation leaked and the cows ate the grass and got radiation. And it affected the milk. I guess it was a temporary thing. But it did affect a lot of us. It did not affect the two babies. And they were in the study that they did on the radiation because the babies had the mother's milk. But it affected all of us older ones except the one sister who was allergic to milk. She didn't have a thyroid problem, but the rest of us six did have a thyroid problem. And my dad then found out what was going on out there. He did not know. They didn't tell the people around what they were building. And so consequently, everybody was happy. And then when he found out and his two years were almost up with the National Guards, and they said you couldn't sell your property. But he sold it anyway. And we moved. And they didn't stop him. Bauman: So what time frame was this that this accident happened? Sparre: Well, this was probably 1941, '42, somewhere along— Bauman: Before the war. Sparre: When exactly the milk was contaminated was somewhere between '40 and '42. Maybe '43. You know, somewhere in that area. We moved away, I think, in February, in '43. So he was really pretty upset about that. Bauman: You mentioned that almost all of you developed thyroid problems? Sparre: Yes. Bauman: When did that-- Sparre: Well, when you went through puberty, it came out. And nobody in the family had ever had a problem. Including my mother got it. And nobody had ever had that problem before in the family, you know? So, just naturally, everybody assumed it was--and being so close to Hanford, our cows probably got more than somebody further away. But, again, I was a child and they didn't tell me these things. But I was probably called Snoopy, because I was always sitting in the kitchen behind the stove where they couldn't see me and listening to all the adult conversations around the stairs. [LAUGHTER] So I was so curious about everything and every single night, I listened to the news. Gable Heater was on and we listened to the news. We had the blackouts. We had to make sure. And since Daddy found out, we made sure there wasn't a speck of light anywhere around our farmhouse. So it was quite a different world. Bauman: So you had a radio and that's how-- Sparre: We did have radio. So we probably had electricity by that time. And since Hanford had electricity, they probably came out and put it in the places around. Bauman: So about how old were you then when you moved away? Sparre: When I moved away? Six. When the people starting to build Hanford came in, our little town of a couple hundred people suddenly became a quite big town of city people who were not always good like farmers. And they just invaded everything and there was a lot more crime suddenly. And the streets were crowded. And going to school, they had two sets of classes, early morning classes. And then you had to take all your books and everything and move all your stuff away because somebody else was going to use your desk in the afternoon. And I went to kindergarten but they put me in a year early because I was a pain to my mother. [LAUGHTER] I just was this little kid that thought I knew everything. I was not a good little kid. Anyway, she took me down to school when I was four and put me in kindergarten. [LAUGHTER] And they took me. Then when I went to first grade, there wasn't enough room in the classroom to have a desk, so they put a bunch of us good kids at a big table. Two sets of classes. There were so many people. Bauman: So it was first grade when you started to see the growth in the number of students because of Hanford site? Sparre: Well, I think more like in kindergarten; that was really there. Except most people didn't send their kids to kindergarten. You didn't have to. And most people didn't bother. And they were moving and all that. But my brothers and sisters didn't go to kindergarten. But she sent me to get rid of me. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What other memories do you have of the school? Do you remember any teachers? Sparre: Well, yeah. I remember--I was a teacher's pet, of course. [LAUGHTER] I do remember that. I do remember a note she sent home, could you try to teach Ilene to be a little neater? [LAUGHTER] But the teachers were overworked because they had to teach two full classrooms. I mean, it all happened so suddenly. And our little town didn't have that many teachers and there weren't that many. And the workers from Hanford came in, but of course, they didn't send teachers. They just--they didn't really--I don't know if they really realized how little we were--the little town was. We didn't have but a little co-op where we could get flour and sugar, you know, the basic staples, along with the cow food and the grain and things that we needed on the farm. And then suddenly, there wasn't enough food and they had to go bring in food from other towns and set up another store. And they were building, but there wasn't enough builders. And it was total confusion. And before Hanford came in, we knew everybody in town. But suddenly, Daddy didn't want to go shopping there anymore. He went to Prosser. It was equal distance to Prosser or Kennewick, so he just went to Prosser. Bauman: I know you were very young, but do you remember any of the businesses or stores that were in Richland? Sparre: Well, I remember where we got the food for the cattle and the flour. And my parents went to town only once a week and that was on Saturday afternoon. And just once a week. And then we started going to Prosser to get food. But outside of that, I don't think there was a library. There was a school. I think there was a post office, but it was all so little. Little tiny town. And there was a gas station. But I remember our church, that one Sunday it was closed because Hanford took over our church property. And so the next Sunday, the pastor spoke on the radio. And I recognized that voice. And it was the first time I'd ever heard a sermon--listened in church, really. And that's the day I accepted Jesus as my Savior. Because I listened, you know. And when he talked about being a sinner and needing to be saved from sin, I was such a bad little girl. I knew I needed a Savior. [LAUGHTER] So I did. Bauman: So what church was that? Sparre: That was the Assembly of God. He spoke on the radio and how we could get another property and build another church. But it was just, like, they didn't give us any choices, just was closed sign. And they didn't give us time or anything. It's just, okay, it's shut. But then everybody knew it was war and you did what--we all cooperated because we knew what was going on. Bauman: Do you remember any special events when you were growing up? Picnics or-- Sparre: Well, yes. I remember there was always--in Richland Park, every summer, there was a story hour, where they told stories, and there was a picnic, and there was a little wading pool and we got to go swimming in the water. Of course, I was little. There was a little bathroom there. And one memory I have is I was only three or four, maybe not even four. But I went to the bathroom by myself and I looked for--oh I remembered how to spell woman. And the last three letters were M-E-N, and so I went in the men's. And there were men in there. I came out real fast! [LAUGHTER] And I said, this is supposed to be the women's. And the man said it to me, it says M-E-N. Women is W-O-M-E-N. Always look for W-O. Okay. So I found it. [LAUGHTER] I guess that's one of my memories of being at the park--in the Richland Park down there. And they had some kind of event down there every year when we took a picnic--that was before the war. And, again, Daddy didn't cooperate much with the town or the people after the war because there was so many people, and farmers kind of like [LAUGHTER] small crowds. Bauman: Do you know if your father or mother belonged to any organizations in the community? The Grange or anything like that? Sparre: No, we always went to the fairs. But we went to a church. That was the only time we were anywhere was church. Or if there was some reason the community was getting together for some cause or something. And then they'd notify people and we'd have a potluck and get together. I think they had some Richland Day--something once a year that they did that with. And people were sick or needed help, people would get together and do things. I do remember that. And outside of that, I don't remember much, except my dad used to play the fiddle and the violin and the banjo. So people came and, at least once a month, they played music all evening. I do remember that. But, you know, there weren't very many people in those days. [LAUGHTER] And everybody was coming from a long way. I mean, we didn't have a tractor. Nobody had a tractor around, anywhere around. You plowed with the horses, you know? The world was really different in the 1930s and early '40s. Bauman: Did you have any specific chores as a little girl on the farm? Sparre: Well, yes. We had to feed the calves--the baby calves. There was always, on a dairy, there's always baby calves. And we would make pets of them, and of course, every time they were slaughtered, we'd cry. [LAUGHTER] Because those were our pets. But we had to feed the baby ones. I was little, but still, I had to feed them whenever there was work to be done, you know? I mean, we had to participate. When I was little, I had to pick--I was only five, and I had to pick a box of cherries in the morning and a box of cherries in the afternoon. I was only five, you know? [LAUGHTER] And I didn't get my box in the afternoon finished, so my dad and everybody sat down under the tree and wouldn't go home till I finished my box. Ever after that, I worked first, played later. I mean, it's just amazing. Now, they don't want kids to work. But it was one of the best gifts our father gave us--was the ability to work and know that was a part of living. And he made it so much fun, you know? He participated with us. And I have a memory of a truckload of food coming--because we're such a big family--that during the war, they came to our house and dropped off four or five boxes of food. And my dad said no. And he picked up the boxes and put them back on the truck and said, we do not take handouts. We take care of our own. Give this to somebody who needs it. And even though we looked at those oranges and thought, whoa, that's nice. But that was a wonderful gift he gave us, because none of us were on welfare. And a big family, we all got an education. We all went to school. We took care of ourselves because he gave us the gift that we worked. We help others, but we don't need the help ourselves. Bauman: So you mentioned--you talked about how this small little town changed quite a bit, obviously. Do you remember when you or your family first found out that something was going to be built not too far from your property? Sparre: Well, my dad came home from town and he says there's rumble, you know? And, of course, he always listened to the radio in the morning and at noon and in the evening--with the news. And of course, we knew about Pearl Harbor. And we knew about the war before then, except we weren't involved. And then suddenly, we were involved. And then the government army and everything--trucks--started rumbling into town. And he knew it was something about that. And almost immediately, they came by and enlisted him in the National Guard, whether he wanted to or not. He was in. But you couldn't object because there was war. And then, of course, they started rationing the food. But we didn't have a problem because we were on the farm. We had our meat, our vegetables, our fruit. And the only thing we didn't have was sugar. Mother canned the fruit without sugar and then we each got like a 1/4 of a cup of sugar a month to last us. And if we used it all at once--and we hid it because my dad liked sugar in his coffee and he'd take a pinch out of each one so we wouldn't miss it. So we worked hard hiding our sugar. [LAUGHTER] And the first thing, I remembered getting up in the morning to go see if my sugar was still hid. [LAUGHTER] It was the consequences of war! Bauman: So you did not have to move initially with the construction of Hanford? Sparre: No. No, because we were out in the country. But we weren't far from Hanford, you know? Bauman: Right. And then you did move. Where did you move to? Sparre: Sunnyside. Daddy had studied the issue, and it was a consensus of opinions that if there was a fallout from Hanford, it would not reach Sunnyside. So it sounded like a good place to move to. And it was good farmland. He got a place in Sunnyside. Bauman: Are there any other things--memories you have of the community of Richland or growing up on the farm that we haven't talked about yet? Sparre: Well, it's hard. I can still see the school for a little school--very little school--and coming into town. Bauman: Where was this school? Sparre: Well, as you came into town, it was right up the hill. First thing you saw was the school. Wasn't very many students. Very little school. And of course, there were the Tri-Cities. The other towns were a little bit bigger, but Richland was always pretty small. It was a farm town. Bauman: Do you remember any of your classmates, any of your friends at school? Sparre: Well, I remember the Peterson boy next door. But after the war, he moved. The widow and her son moved. And that's all I remember of that. Mrs. Cherry was my teacher. I remember that because it sounded like cherry. [LAUGHTER] I'm sure it wasn't quite cherry, but that was as close as I got to it--the name. Bauman: And did you walk to school? Did you take a bus? Sparre: Oh, no. We took a bus. We took a bus. Yeah. Bauman: And was this a regular school bus? Sparre: It was a regular school bus. I can't remember that it was very big. But it was probably a smaller big school bus, you know. And it came on the--right down here was the canal. And then there was the highway. And down here was our property, which I remembered it being a mile down there, but it was, like, half a block. [LAUGHTER] But when you're four and you're walking up there to go to school, it was a long walk. I remember one day playing in the canal and mother told us not to because the water was coming in. And my brother, who was six years older, he suddenly grabbed us and, get out of there, get out of there, the water's coming! And it came in just as we got out of the canal. [LAUGHTER] I do remember that. But didn't seem like it was a long bus ride. And it doesn't seem like the bus was full. Bauman: I know, again, that you were young still when you moved away, but, overall, what your thoughts about growing up in Richland, in that small town? Sparre: Well, we loved where we were. I mean, down there in the water, my brothers built a raft and had a pole. And we went all around and fished and played in there. But there was quicksand there. And one day, Daddy's prize cow got caught in the quicksand and all the neighbors came. But before they could pull it out, it drowned. Think of us kids playing down there. [LAUGHTER] But we knew where the quicksand was so we didn't go over there. And my dad was an old-fashioned man. He was a very, very good. He never lost his temper. But if he said something and you disobeyed, he did have a razor strap. And he knew how to use it. But you didn't get beat on because you didn't get spanked more than once. That was it, which was very good. Reminds me of the verse in the Bible that says, children--fathers, don't make your children angry. Go ahead and spank them if they need it. [LAUGHTER] And that's a pretty good thing. Just to do it and get it good enough and then you won't have to do it again. And that's what my father did. So we just obeyed him. And then he was so kind, very kind. So we had a great home life, you know? And he played music. And as we grew up, all of us had to play instruments. And can you imagine? He made us practice an hour a day. And all of us played different instruments. It's bad enough listening to my girls practice the piano. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what instrument did you play? Sparre: What? I played the oboe and the clarinet and the piano. Except, I really don't make music. I'm really not musical. But I played because that's what we did in our house, you know? But we had so much fun growing up in Richland. It was not that much fun in Sunnyside, because we were pretty close to town. There were people all around. And they had rules and regulations that we weren't accustomed to. Mother put us in pants and shorts to play in in Richland, and the town people in Sunnyside objected to that. [LAUGHTER] So we couldn't wear them! [LAUGHTER] I mean, it was just so different than living out in the country. Mother always had Sunday dinner and people were always over Richland. I don't remember if there were always relatives but it seems like a lot of them were friends and who they were, I don't remember. Bauman: Your father sold your farm. Is that farm still operational today? Sparre: Well, there's a nice house down there, you know, but what’s on it--there's quite a few houses down in that section. We walked to the back of the farm and we could fish in the--I think it was the Yakima River. And I remember catching a fish there when I was probably five. I was the only one that caught a fish that day. I remember that. [LAUGHTER] But there were so many things to do and to be inventive and play, which was really good for us. But it was just different when we moved where there were people. Bauman: Do you know if your parents felt similarly about leaving Richland, if they were sort of disappointed that they had-- Sparre: Well, they both really wanted out. Mother knew that my father couldn't continue to guard and run a dairy. It couldn't continue to do that. He was exhausted. And yet that didn't seem to register. They didn't care. I'm sure it wasn't that they didn't care, but I'm sure the army officers had their own way of thinking and there was a crisis. It was just really hard. And so they were both very thankful to move. Bauman: Well, I think I've asked all the questions I have. Do you have anything else you want to add? Sparre: You know, I'd take a look at my list and I probably have mentioned--oh, this is the wrong one. But I think I pretty much covered everything that I can think of. Bauman: Great. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, Ilene. Appreciate it. Sparre: Yeah, I wish I could remember more. [LAUGHTER] I think it's neat that you're doing this. And thank you for asking me. Bauman: Well, thanks for coming in. Appreciate it. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:38:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 211 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Gans, Jesse & Ellen Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ilene Sparre Description An account of the resource An interview with Ilene Sparre conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-29: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Housing Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcaf0d30b7578031192df95ac3f19d628.jpg bef66851539f406753cf08c67a310697 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb3c7022b7fab9e8825442d1b24d584f1.mp4 46c1103abffb62422a577d5674a3d32e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johnson, Norman Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Johnson_Norman Robert Bauman: All right, is that all right? Camera man: Yeah. Bauman: Okay. All right, we can go ahead and get started. Norman Johnson: Okay. Bauman: And if we could start first by maybe having you say your name and spell your name for us? Johnson: It's Norman Neil Johnson. J-O-H-N-S-O-N. Bauman: Great. And my name's Robert Bauman. We're conducting this oral history interview on November 5 of 2013. And we're doing this interview on the campus of Washington University Tri-Cities. So let's start maybe by having you talk about your family, first, and what you know about when they came to the area here. Johnson: My grandparents--I can remember my grandpa telling me--he came out here in 1910 and bought land. And then he moved back to Idaho. He was working in the sawmills in Idaho. And then he come back in 1918 and brought my grandmother and my aunt and my mother back. And they started farming in 1918. Bauman: And his name was? Johnson: Pete Hanson. Bauman: Pete Hanson. Do you know why this area, why Richland? What brought him here? Just the availability of land? Johnson: I know he had a brother that owned the farm. And they bought the farm right next to him. And then his brother died before I was born. His oldest daughter was who farmed it after I was born. I don't know why they came here. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And how old would your mother have been in 1918 when they-- Johnson: Four years old. Bauman: Four years old. So she grew up here. Johnson: Yeah, I was one in Lady Lourdes Hospital in Pasco in 1936. The only hospital here. Bauman: Okay. And what about your father, then? Johnson: I think he was from Republic, Washington. Somewhere over there, because--I was so young when he died, that I never really knew much about him. And I didn't think to ask his brothers or sisters about him. Bauman: But did he live in the area too, you and is that how your parents met? Johnson: Yeah, mm-hm, yep. He had an older sister that lived here, too. Their name was Perkins. There was quite a few of them. Bauman: Mm-hm. And you were born in what year? Johnson: 1936. Bauman: 1936. And your family had a farm? Johnson: Yes. Bauman: And what sort of crops? Johnson: All I can remember is asparagus and strawberries and alfalfa for their livestock. That's all I can remember. I don’t know, my grandpa said that the only people that made any money out their farming and amount to anything was the ones that had orchards. And asked him how come he didn't plant trees, and he said he couldn't afford to buy any. So I guess he never made a lot of money. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And do you know about how large the farm was? Johnson: He had 17 acres and then he farmed my mother's 10 acres, so he had 27 acres all together. Bauman: And do you remember any other buildings on the property? A barn, storage buildings? Johnson: Yeah, we had--there was a storage building right behind our house. It was maybe 40 feet from the rear of our house. We always called it the other house, and I think it had been actually a residence of somebody's at one time. But I don't know when. Bauman: Okay. And do you know roughly where the farm was? Johnson: As I recall it was about five miles from downtown Richland. And it must have been at least a mile off from the river. Bauman: And did you have electricity on the farm? Johnson: We got electricity just before I was born, but my cousins that live next to us they never did. They didn't get electricity. But we had it just before I was born, I guess. Bauman: What about telephone? Johnson: Nope. No, we didn't have any of that. Bauman: And how about irrigation? Johnson: We had irrigation water, yes. Bauman: Do you know how that was--what sort of-- Johnson: It's real irrigated, is what they did. They had a concrete pipe that run at the head of the field. And it had little holes in it. And then they had cedar plugs that they put in it. And when they wanted the water rail, they took that plug out, and away it went. Bauman: Do you remember who your nearest neighbors were? Johnson: Well the Brewers were the closest. They was the ones that was my mother's cousin. Bauman: So what do you remember about the area from the time you were growing up here? Johnson: Not a whole lot. I remember a few things. I remember when they shut our water off. They shut all our irrigation water off. The government did. And so we couldn't irrigate anything, so my grandfather went to work. As I recall it was up in big Pasco for somebody--when they were building the warehouses over there. And just me and my grandmother there. And my mother working at the post office. The government brought some prisoner of war out there, and just left them. Know what they did, they had them doing something out there. I remember my grandmother was really worried about the Italians, is what they were. And that would have been in like '43 or '44. Something like that. Bauman: Okay. So did you go to school in Richland? Johnson: I went to the first and second grade. First grade we went all day. But the second grade, the population had grown so much that we had two shifts, and I had the afternoon shift. And that was only time I went to school in Richland, was the first and second grade. Bauman: Okay. So was second grade like 1943, '44, or something? Johnson: Yeah, it must have been the '43, '44 year, yeah. Bauman: Do you remember anything about the school itself? The building or any of the teachers? Johnson: Yeah, seemed like it was over there where Lewis and Clark is now, I think. It was the only school there. Seems to me like it was a long building on one end, as you started at--it would've been the north end--the first grades, and then as you walked farther the other away the grades went up. I don't know how far they went. It might have been high school on the other end. I don't know. But I know I had cousins that went on the other end, and they were like five and seven years older than me. And they went up in the other end of the building. Bauman: And how did you get to school? Was there a school bus? Johnson: Yeah, a school bus. Bauman: Was it a fairly standard sort of the school bus? Or what would you think of the school bus now? Johnson: Well, probably not as good school buses now, I don't imagine. No, no, nothing like that. But I don't remember what they were like. Bauman: Okay. So you went there, you said first and second grade. And what happened then, after second grade? Johnson: Well that was when my grandfather was building a house in his spare time over in Kennewick--500 block on Rainier. And when he got it done, that summer of '44 we moved over there. I think that we went back to the farm one time, just to look at it. And remember my grandfather telling me he wanted to buy the building, the house, and move it to Kennewick, and they wouldn't sell it to him. He was not happy about that, either. What they did with it, I don't know. Bauman: So you were able to stay in the house into 1944? Johnson: Yeah. Bauman: But then you had to leave? Johnson: Well, we did. I don't know if they were actually forced to leave at that time. But we did. When my grandfather got the house finished in Kennewick, we moved over there. Bauman: And do you remember when the government started sort of moving in? Do you have memories from that period? Johnson: At the time before they moved in my mother was working for the irrigation department, for Mr. Fletcher, I think he run the irrigation department. And she said they had heard something was going on-- something was going to come here, and they didn't know what. And I imagine that would have been in probably '41 or '42. And of course that job went away when they shut the water off, so she went to work for the postal department in Richland. Bauman: Oh, okay. But you don't know if your mother or grandparents ever got a notice saying you have to leave by a certain time? Johnson: I think did, yeah. I don't know if they ever said right out that you had to leave at a certain time. But they were condemning our property, is what they called it. They were all farms. They shut the water off, there was no reason to stay there anymore. Because it's pretty arid out there. Bauman: Do you have any memories of the--I know you lived outside of town itself, but did you go down very often? Do you have any memories of the town itself? Johnson: Yeah, I used to go in with my grandfather and get groceries. And he had a '36 Ford pickup, and he'd let me sit on his lap and steer. I was about five years old, I guess. I can remember him going--there was one tavern there. I can remember him going in there, and I could go in with him, but I had to sit way in the back. They had a bench back there in the back, and I sat back there and waited for him. And we'd go to get groceries at John Dam's Grocery Store. He had a partner, too, but I don't remember what his name was. That's about all I can remember about the downtown. Bauman: Do you remember any other institutions, any other churches or anything along those lines? Johnson: No, I don't. Bauman: Okay. How about any community events? Do you remember any special occasion? Johnson: The only thing I can remember is, they used to have--farmers have something called a chivaree. And I don't know if all that was when people were getting married or something of that nature, I guess. That's all I can remember about that. Wasn't too lively around here, then. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So can you tell me a little more about your family then? And you said in 1944 then, your grandfather bought a place in Kennewick Johnson: Yeah. There was a guy named--another Richland farmer--his last name was Murray. One of them was Brainerd and the other one was Audemar. No, Brainerd and I can't remember the other one. But I don't know if Brainerd was the son or the father. But they bought about, oh, all the way from Fourth Avenue up in Kennewick up to about what would have been Seventh Avenue right now. He bought that whole thing. And people from Richland started buying. I know there was--the Ericksons bought land there, and the Northings bought land there, the Samses bought land there. And there might have been a couple more, but there was a lot of Richland people bought five and ten acres. I know my grandpa bought five. And the bottom part of his went halfway from Rainier halfway to Vancouver—no, Olympia, through Olympia. And then John Erickson bought the land. And then just south of us the Northings bought the next whole ten acres there. Oh, there was quite a few Richland people there. Bauman: I want to ask then, growing up you said there wasn't a whole lot going on in Richland. Johnson: [LAUGHTER] No, not that I knew of. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, as a young child, obviously. What sorts of things did you do for fun or for entertainment? Did you go swimming in the river, or did you do hunting, fishing sorts of things? Johnson: Well, when I was little, we get a little irrigation ditch that run through our place. We called it the lateral, come off the big ditch. And it was probably maybe a foot and a half deep. Me and my cousin used to go play in that all time. I was interested in rocks, and my grandma used to take me out there in the desert and we'd hunt for pretty rocks. And there was an awful lot of sand. I remember, when the wind would blow there you didn't have dust storms you have sandstorms. And that hurt when we were out in that. In fact, a lot of our cars got the windows pitted from the sand. I can remember big sand dunes out there. And I used to go out there with my cousins once in a while. Like I say, there wasn't a whole lot going on. I was too young to do any sports or anything. I can remember my cousin that was seven years older than me. Brewer, Max Brewer. He'd go hunting out there. And one exciting thing I remember, he was hunting with Verne McGan, I think it was. And his gun went off and hit Verne in the shoulder. That was a big, exciting thing. [LAUGHTER] It was a .22 so it didn't do a whole lot of damage. But still, pretty exciting. Oh, and I remember one thing, too. After the Navy put that base in Pasco, they had those trainers. Planes, training pilots, they were yellow, and they were double-wing--one over the top of the other. And they had two open cockpits in them, is what they were. And they used to come down so low that my dog would get up on a haystack and bark at them, they'd come in so low. And two of them crashed out there between us and Brewers’ one time. One of them crashed, and the other one tried to land in the sagebrush. And he couldn’t land one of those in the sagebrush, so. There's parts all over out there. And I heard some of the farmer used to shoot at them with shotguns. They'd come down so low they'd go underneath the telephone wires. Bauman: Wow. Johnson: So it's just a bunch of young guys learning to fly. But they were over there all the time. Bauman: So did that start like in '42 or '43? Johnson: '43 probably. Bauman: Did you ever talk with your mom or your grandparents later about leaving, and what their perspective was on that? Johnson: Well, they weren't real happy about it, like I said. Most of the farmers were really unhappy about it. My grandfather, he was from Norway, so he just thought that was the way things went. He went to work for some company who was building Big Pasco over there. And then in 1947, he went to work for DuPont. And I think he only worked for DuPont for about six months, then DuPont left and General Electric took over. And he thought that was great. Best job he ever had, he said. He was a teamster. He drove from central stores to 300 Area. He delivered the things that were ordered for the 300 Area from central stores. Bauman: Do you know how long he did that? Johnson: Until he retired. In those days, when you turn 65, you could work until the end of that month, and then you couldn't work there any longer. So he retired in '53, October of '53. He was not happy about that, either. He didn't want to retire. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Did anyone else from your family work at Hanford at all? Johnson: Yeah. My mother's cousin's husband, Lawrence Brewer, worked out there. And let's see, who else did? Must be somebody else, but I can't remember who they are. Oh, yeah, they were neighbors, I remember some neighbors that worked out there. And I think you said you talked to one of them. Gordon Kaas, or Norman Kaas. Bauman: Gordon Kaas. Johnson: Yeah, he worked out there. I don't think Norman did. Bauman: Right, Gordon did. That's right. You said your grandfather enjoyed the job working out there, right? Did it seem strange at all, working at the place where you used to have a farm? Johnson: No, not to him. He thought General Electric was a fabulous place to work. Because he was from Norway and he'd worked in real hard jobs. Sawmill, and stuff like that. This is just driving a truck from central stores to 300 Area, and he thought it was great. Bauman: Now have you or any of your family members had a chance to go back at some point later and see the place at all? Johnson: Our place? Bauman: Yeah. Johnson: No. Well, my sister's oldest daughter got to go out there to our old farm one time. I talked to her the other day and said I'd like to go out there. And she said she’d try and get ahold of somebody. But I don't think she has. But they never lived out there. I'm the only one left alive in our family that lived out there on either one of those farms. My cousin just died, last summer. She was five years older than me. So here and I were the last ones, and it's just me now. Bauman: And who was your cousin? Johnson: Donna Bowder. And they lived over there up in Meadow Springs. Bauman: Why do you think it's important for us to do this sort of thing? For us to get the stories of people who used live-- Johnson: Anything history is worth keeping, I think. We shouldn't lose our history on anything, I don't think. There should be a lot of people left, descendants of the people that came out here. I'm sure they would like to know what their grandparents did. I think it's very interesting, really. Bauman: Were there any special memories that you have from--and I know you were very young when you moved away to Kennewick--Were there any special memories you have from the time you did live on the farm in Richland that sort of stand out to you that you haven't mentioned yet? Johnson: Well, I can remember my cousin, the one that just died, her and I used to have to pick a row of strawberries. And then my grandma would let us go play in the irrigation ditch. And that was a big deal for me. Let's see, I was about five years old at that point. Bauman: That was your reward? Johnson: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, yeah. Bauman: I was going to ask you, did you have any certain chores or things that you had to do to help out? Johnson: Yeah, I had a little car, a pedal car, but it was pretty hard to pedal in the sand. [LAUGHTER] And I can remember having electric trains, like that. One thing I remember about the house was the front room was real long. In those days we didn't have carpet, we had linoleum. And I had a little dog, a fox terrier, and I'd throw that ball in that front room, and he'd just chase it, and he'd just spin. And then he couldn't stop and he'd smack right into the wall. [LAUGHTER] So I had a lot of fun with that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I guess the dog kept doing it, so he must have been having fun too. Johnson: Oh, he did. Bauman: Anything else that I haven’t asked you about? Or anything else that sort of stands out, either your own memory, or maybe if you have any stories that your mother told or your grandparents told you. Bauman: Yeah, my grandpa used to tell me stories all time. He said they used to have down in the Columbia River—of course was it was a lot swifter than it is now because the McNary Dam wasn’t there. They had what they called a boom out there. It was a big log that was long, that was out there and it would catch all the driftwood. And they'd go down there for firewood, I guess is what they’d use it for. And he said he went down one time and they were netting salmon. And he said he come back with a whole backseat full of salmon in his old car. And he said they use to catch sturgeon down there about 12 feet long. And they'd hook the line onto a team of horses and drag them out of the river. That's a big fish. 12 feet long sturgeon. Bauman: Yeah. Johnson: That's about all, he never said too much about anything, he just farmed, that's all he did. Never had no hobbies or anything, just farm. Bauman: Mm-hm. So if someone was to ask you what it was like growing up, at least part of your youth in Richland, what the town was like-- Johnson: Very small. Very small. Wasn't nothing there, really. And I've had people say, tell me, well I didn't think there was a Richland before the Hanford project. And I said, sure was, because I lived there. I don't know if they believe me or not. I can remember going to town with my grandfather. And I remember when the strawberries would come on, I used to eat until I'd get sick. Things like, I remember one time--my mother used to take me to the movies on Sundays. And we'd go over to Pasco, the Liberty Theater in Pasco. There was only two theaters here, the Roxy Theater in Kennewick and the Liberty Theater in Pasco. And we went to the Liberty Theater one time--that was before the government come in--and it was on a Sunday and we come home, and there was--They were picking feathers out of ducks. And there my cousin, Max Brewer, he'd went up was hunting and he'd run into a bunch of ducks that were sitting on what little water was left in the irrigation ditch. And he shot into the bunch of them, got about 12 of them with one shot. So we were smelling pretty bad in there. Duck feathers, when they get wet, smell a little bad. [LAUGHTER] That's one of the things I remember. Kind of stands out in my memory. But I lose a lot from being that young. I forget a lot of things that happened. It was nice living on a farm. Really, when I was a kid. I don't know if I would have liked it when I got to be a teenager or not. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So have you sort of stayed in the area then, most of your life? Johnson: Yeah, yup. Bauman: Moved to Kennewick. Johnson: I went to work for General Electric when I was 18. 1955. And retired from Westinghouse in '94. Worked for four different companies there while I was working. Bauman: And so when you start working for GE, what sort of work were you doing? Johnson: I was only--when I was 18, you couldn't really get too much. The job I was working in a printing shop in the 700 Area. And then later I got a job with the Richland Fire Department for two years. At that No. 1 station on George Washington Way. And then when the city took over in '59, I thought I'd be better off staying with General Electric than the city. So I got a job as an operator out at 100-D Area. And I worked there until they shut DR down, which is the other reactor at D Area. And they sent me to H Area, and I worked there until they shut it down. And I worked-- then they sent me to F Area. And I worked there until they shut it down. Then there was an old powerhouse in town that supplied steam to the Desert Inn and all the schools and everything. And I worked in there until the Federal Building was built, then they shut off all the steam. Then I got laid off from General Electric, and it was just awful. They were leaving then. They left, and then the only thing here that was General Electric was N Area for a while. And a company called Douglas United Nuclear come in and took over the 100 Areas. And I had been off work about three weeks, and they called me up and wanted to know if I wanted to come work for them, which I did. So I went out to B Area. Bauman: B Area, is that what you said? Johnson: B Area. Bauman: Okay. Johnson: And then I come into town and I worked in the 300 Area. And then when they shut B Area down, I put in an application--I was down low on the seniority list--so I put in an application in with Battelle. And they offered me a job in I think it was June of '67. So I quit United Nuclear to work with Battelle. And then when Battelle--Westinghouse came in in 1970. The building I was working in, and my manager was going through Westinghouse so I had a choice, I went to Westinghouse too. And I worked for them from 1970 to '94. In the 300 Area. Bauman: Wow. Hm. So altogether almost 30 years. Johnson: I was there 39. A little over 39 years. Bauman: Right, right almost 40 years, right. So you worked at D Reactor, you said? Johnson: I worked in water department. Bauman: Oh, the water department, okay. And so what sorts of jobs or tasks did you have there? Johnson: Well, there was a lot of jobs in pump rooms. I worked on the filter plant. And what we did, we pumped the water out of the river and up to the 183 building, which was a filter plant. And then we treated it with some stuff that I can't remember the names of. And then we filtered it and sent it down to 190 buildings, which had all the--They had eight synchronous electric pumps in there. And they'd pump the water from there through the reactor to cool the reactor. Now remember I was on just shift work with 22 operators on each shift at that point. And then there was a few on day shift to relieve people. A lot of people out there then. The department I was in had over 500 employees when I went to work. The Power Department, they'd call it. And when I retired it was about 150 of us, I think. Bauman: Wow. I assume you needed to have security clearance of some sort? Johnson: Yeah, I had Q clearance most of the time, yes. Bauman: Were you ever working in jobs where you had to wear special protective equipment for the possibility of exposure or radiation? Johnson: Yeah, the last 15 years out there I went to what they called air balance. We did in-place testing of the heat for filters that filtered the air before it was released to the atmosphere. And I got into some pretty hot things a few times. Changed the set of filters in the 324 Building one time, and it was 350R. They were doing some work in one of the cells for the German government. And they got real crapped out. Bauman: Hm. Roughly what time period would this have been? Johnson: That would have been in probably '86. Probably something like that. Bauman: Oh, okay, okay. And so you have to have dosimeter? Something along those lines? Johnson: Yeah. We had to have rings on for it. And I had two dosimeters, one in each front pocket. Had two pair of coveralls on, and shoe covers, and then boots over that. Then you had a skull cap on and a hood over that. And then you had assault mask that covered your whole face. You had two pair of gloves--you put surgical gloves on and then canner gloves on. And these were all taped to your outer pair of coveralls. And then they went around and taped everything that was showing. So there was no skin showing. Bauman: Mm-hm. So, like, how long of a period of time could you do that work before you had to come out in terms of-- Johnson: You mean for exposure? Bauman: Exposure, yeah. Johnson: I never was in there where I had to come out for overexposure. They tried to keep it as low as you could get. And so it wasn't that bad. The only time that there was ever any much exposure was when we were testing some of the filters. Some of them would have hot places. Or when we were changing filters. They had the millwrights or the fitters come in and change them, and we had to be there to test them. And that was the only real hot thing I was around. One time I remember in 325 Building, we were in a hot room in the basement. And we had to take these caps off of the duct-work to inject the smoke in there. And when the guy was taking it off, it just all of a sudden, it felt like it was heavy. It fell down and this, it looked like gunpowder, went all over everything. So we spent a whole day in the whole-body counter downtown after that. So that wasn't no fun. [LAUGHTER] But nobody got anything. I didn't get anything. They just wanted to make sure that we didn't get anything. Because that stuff that come out was pretty hot, I guess. Bauman: I imagine safety pretty strongly emphasize at Hanford, in terms of procedures? Johnson: Oh, yeah. Especially got, towards the end that I was there, procedure compliance was the main thing. If you didn't follow procedures, some people lost their jobs because of that. And I remember one time, I usually run the machine that detected how bad the filters were leaking, and we got some new ones in. The old ones had just push buttons on them, and the new ones had toggle switches. And we were going to do a job one time, and they had only wrote a procedure for one of them. The push buttons, not the toggle switches. So we had to quit. We couldn't finish the job. Which I thought was really stupid. What difference does it make whether you push a button or flip a toggle switch? But they had to write another procedure for it. So that got kind of irritating. It was hard to get used to that. Where you used to go in there and get a job done, and after the procedure compliance came along, couldn't do that. Took three times as long to do a job. Bauman: Obviously when you started in 1955, focus was on production, and by the time you retired, definitely the focus was on cleanup. I wonder if that shift, how you saw that, impacted your work, maybe? Johnson: We lost a lot of work on the job that I had, the air balance job. Some of our main buildings, not just the 300. We took the 300 Area and 400 Area. And the 300 Area in 1987, I think it was, we transferred a lot of our buildings to Battelle, for some reason. I don't know what the reason was for that. And so we lost our job. Well, didn't get as much radiation exposure after that. They work-ordered me to Battelle for a while. And Battelle wanted to keep on doing that, and Westinghouse wouldn’t let them do it. But I had a chance--I could have transferred from Westinghouse to Battelle when they did that. If I had been 10 years younger, I probably would have done it. But I was up around 50 years old then. So that was the biggest change we had. And then the problem was, these buildings were scheduled to be tore down in the 300 Area. And if we would suggest that they do something, they'd say, no, we're not going to spend that kind of money on this building because we're going to tear it down in a couple years. It got kind of frustrating. I was glad to get out of there then. Things were changing, and I was too old to change with it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: President Kennedy visited the site in '63 to, I believe, the N Reactor. Were you here? Did you happen to be on site at the day? Johnson: I was here, but I was working graveyard, and I didn't feel like staying up that long to go see him. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] That make sense. Johnson: [LAUGHTER Yeah. Bauman: Were there any significant incidents, events sort of things that stand out in your mind from your years working at Hanford, that you remember? Johnson: Well, when I worked on fire department, I was the youngest guy there. Actually I was 20 years old when I went to work on the fire department. And I used to have to ride the back of that truck. And when you'd have a fire—and we had a lot of false alarms, these kids would pull them pull-boxes all over town-- but you had to respond just like it was a real fire. And a lot of them we'd get was at the Bomber Bowl, you know, after a football game. But you'd be in bed, asleep, in the winter time. And then all of the sudden all the lights would come on and those bells will go bong, bong, like that. And you're just in a fog up out of there. And then you hit that cold air out there and it was a real shock. In fact I talked to a guy that works on the Seattle Fire Department, and I told him. He said, oh, they wouldn't let you do that no more. They don't let you ride the back of that truck. He asked me if we were tied on. I said no, we hung on pretty hard, though. You just had to, back there. But it was a good place to work. I really did like it. Before I retired it was not near as good. Because I was one of the youngest guys out there in my department. And most of the other older guys that I've worked with had either died or retired. So it wasn't the same. Bauman: What--of the different jobs you had at Hanford, different parts of the site that you worked, was there a job that you found the most rewarding? That you enjoyed the most, or one maybe that you found the most challenging? Johnson: The last one I had, the air balance job was. There was a lot of math in it, you had to figure out air flows, and you had take air flows. We had to test--they had open-faced hoods in there. And we had to check them--I think we checked them once a month to make sure the flow was up to standard. And I know one of the guys who was vice president out there when he retired. He used to see us, he'd stop and tell us that what you're doing is more important than any other job out here. You're keeping people safe, he said. I really appreciated that, that the vice president would notice us. But that was the best. I thought that was the most challenging job I had out there. You had to use your brain a little bit, and all that stuff. Bauman: You started to talk about this a little bit, maybe I'll ask you to talk about it a little more. So how was Hanford as a place to work? What overall are your impressions of your almost 40 years working there? Johnson: I thought it was really a fairly safe place to work, really. As far as the jobs I had, they were real careful about everything. I know my uncle took me through a plywood plant in Longview one time. The safety wasn't near as good there as it was on Hanford. It was easy to see that. It was a good job, really. As it went on you had to go through more things. They're always sending you to a class that didn't help you a bit, I didn't think. [LAUGHTER] But it was a good place to work. Bauman: I teach a class on the Cold War, and the of course, a number of the students that I have in my class were born after the Cold War ended. And so have no memories at all of the Cold War. Of course you were working at Hanford-- much of time you were working at Hanford was during the Cold War. So I wonder for young people today or future generations, how would you describe working at Hanford during this period of the Cold War, explain to them what that was like? Johnson: Well, it was-- I don't know how you would say it. It's a good place to work. They take real good care of you up there, I thought they did. The only thing I didn't like about it was shift work. I didn’t care for that. [LAUGHTER] My wife used to tell when I was coming towards the end of graveyard, she'd say well you're getting to be halfway decent to live with again. We changed shifts. We didn't work one straight shift. You work a week of swing, and a week of graveyard, and a week of days. Terrible shift. Anything would have been better than that. But I would say, if you don't mind shift work, it was great. Because I was lucky I ended up, when I went to work at Battelle I got day shift most of the time. But they were good people to work for. Pretty honest, people were out there. They all had Q Clearances, and so they had to be pretty reputable people to work there. So that was nice to work with people you trust and depend on. And it was all around a good place to work for me. I'm not sure how it is now. But I have a relatives out there now. Quite a few of them. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about in terms of your work at Hanford? Or anything you haven't had a chance to talk about yet, but you'd like to talk about? Johnson: I can't think of any now, I probably will when I get home. [LAUGHTER] I can't think of it now. [LAUGHTER] Some stuff comes back to me every once in a while that I don't think of all the time. There's a lot of funny things that happened out there. I remember one time the guys at my supervisor on graveyard, they'd always go dump their garbage out of their office. And it was still dark out, and he dumped it and a raccoon come out. About scared him to death, I guess [LAUGHTER] I remember one time they had to knock the reactor down when raccoons got in there where the transformers were. And he jumped from one to the other one, well it zapped him right in midair. So it knocked the reactor down. So there was a few funny things that did happen. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your memories, both about your childhood in Richland and also your years working at Hanford. I appreciate it. Johnson: Okay, thank you. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 700 Area 100 D Area DR Area H area F Area B Area 183 Building 190 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1936-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1994 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Hanson, Pete Brewer, Max Brewer, Lawrence Kass, Gordon Kass, Norman Bowder, Donna Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Norman Johnson Description An account of the resource An interview with Norman Johnson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-5 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-15: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. DuPont Fishing General Electric Richland (Wash.) Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb9d0f93814a993cb4647297a4aba67a0.jpg 4bdb6633307697446efeebe6eacc1f29 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5860e0871ce50146e5899a1a69426bcd.mp4 36f3b018f208cb3c25f93d9c8058180e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stratton, Monte Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Stratton_Monte Camera man: Okay. I say we record. Robert Bauman: Yep. All right. All right, let's go ahead and get started. Get some of the official stuff out of the way first. My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Monte Stratton. And today's date is July 16 of 2013. Our interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Stratton about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So first of all, thank you for coming in and letting us talk to you today. Monte Stratton: Well, first off, you can call me Monte. I like to go by my-- Bauman: Will do. Stratton: --nickname. Bauman: All right. Well, Monte, I wonder if you could start by just telling us how and why you came to the Hanford site and when you came here. Stratton: Well, going back to the early days of my working career, I was at an ammunition plant in Kings Mills, Ohio. This would have been in 1943. And at that time, the war was in its heyday and actually beginning to wind down to some extent. And I had been given a deferment up to that point, because I was at an ammunition plant. But they needed some personnel here at the Hanford site which was being built, and I was interviewed by the person who eventually became the plant manager to start with. That would have been Walt Simon. They were looking for people that had backgrounds similar to mine. I was an amateur radio operator and had some electronic experience. I'm an electrical engineer by profession, and they needed someone with that background for the instrument field. So as I said, I was interviewed and accepted the offer. I came to the Hanford site in February of 1944, and that's when I got started here at Hanford. Bauman: And what was your very first impressions of the place when you arrived? Stratton: A long ways from home. [LAUGHTER] I don't recall any particular impressions. I know that I arrived in the wee hours of the morning, came in by train into Pasco. And were met by plant personnel who escorted me over to Richland, and I was given a room in the—trying to recall what—the hotel that was originally in Richland. And I spent a week there and then I was given a room in the last men's dormitory that was built. This was K8. But my first impressions of this place were so different from the East Coast, where I'd grown up. So it took me a while to get used to it. But I soon learned to survive. Bauman: And so you stayed—you were living in a dorm, a men's dorm at the time then. Could you describe that, like-- Stratton: For-- Bauman: --the size of it, or anything along those lines? Stratton: There were eight men's dorms here in Richland. And there was a two-story building. I don't think any of them are still around, but they used some of them for facilities afterwards. I was on the second floor, and it was--I don't remember too much about any particulars of the dormitory. At this point, I might mention something about the dust storms that were prevalent in those days. They were called termination winds, and I recall one day I was laying across my bed. This was probably a Sunday afternoon, just resting, left the window open, and one of those termination wind dust storms came up. And when I woke up, I was covered with dust. [LAUGHTER] That was one experience that I had in the early days. Another experience that I had while I was there in the dormitory, and this relates to security—in those days security was very prevalent. There were a lot of security agents assigned here as everybody knows. And one afternoon once again I was laying across my bed and I got this strong knock at the door. When I opened the door the person walked right past me and came over to a radio receiver that I had on the table. And this receiver had a send/receive switch on the front. And he says, we have to put a seal on that. This happened to be the receiver that I'd brought out with me. Being an amateur radio operator, I brought my receiver along. We were taken off the air, of course, during the wartime, but I had my receiver just to listen to whatever was of interest. Well, I had a hard time explaining to this security person that this switch on the front of this receiver did not do any transmitting. That's what he wanted to make sure, that there was no transmitting involved. So I opened it up and let him look in and explained as best I could. Actually, the switch only controlled some external device if you wanted to hook it. But I managed to get past that one. Bauman: And how long did you live in the dorms then? Stratton: About one year. As I recall, I was in the dormitory for approximately one year. During that period, I met the person that I ended up marrying. And when I married this person, I moved from the dorm into a house that had been assigned us. Bauman: And where was the house? Stratton: The house was a duplex, a B-type house located on Judson Avenue in Richland. And we ended up having two children and we moved out of that B house to where we're presently living, which is an H-type house, [INAUDIBLE]. Bauman: And how did you and your wife meet? Was she working there as well? Stratton: Oh, now you've asked a nice question. [LAUGHTER] It just so happens that I had a crew of people maintaining doing repair work on some of the instrumentation which I was assigned to. We had a shop in Richland, and one of my personnel was this girl that I became acquainted with affectionately and ended up marrying her. She was one of my, actually one of my workers. Bauman: And where had she come from to work Hanford? Stratton: She had come from Denver Ordnance Plant in Denver under similar circumstances that I came. At that time—this is a matter of interest—ammunition plants in different parts of the country had stockpiled their ammunition to the point where they were slowing down. A lot of the plants were either closing or slowing their operations. And the girl that I married had been working at one of the ammunition plants, and she was transferred here to the Hanford plant under very similar circumstances that I was. Bauman: So, let's talk about the work you did then at Hanford when you first arrived. Could you describe the sort of work activities you were involved in? Stratton: Well, when I first got here, I was assigned to a shop activity in the 300 Area. It was an instrument shop. And they were maintaining instruments that were being used throughout the project. And after that latter part of 1944, I was transferred to a new shop that had just been built in the 700 Area, an instrument shop. And that's where we were maintaining instruments that were being used throughout the project. Bauman: Okay. And how long did you end up working at Hanford, and what other sorts of jobs did you have? Stratton: Oh, I worked at Hanford here until I retired in 1982. I worked in all the different areas, starting at the 300 Area, then to the 700 Area. I was sent out to F Area at the startup of that reactor. And then came back to the 700 Area and was there for several years, and finally was sent out to the B Reactor. The B Reactor started up and operated for a short period of time. Then it was shut down—I don't recall for how long—a year or so maybe. And I was sent out to the B Reactor about that time--or was at B reactor about the time that it started up on its second run of operation. Bauman: And about when would that have been? Stratton: I'm guessing, and I was looking at my notes the other day, trying to figure out exactly when that would have been, but I'm guessing around 1949. I could be wrong on that date, but that's approximately. Bauman: And what was your jobs at B Reactor when you were there? Stratton: To start with I was actually a mechanic doing maintenance activity. But after being there for a while, I was elevated to a supervisor again. And I worked in B Reactor and several of the other reactors over the years. I went to the K Reactors when they were just being built and followed those from ground up, spent about roughly ten years, either as a supervisor or in maintenance engineering at the K Reactors. Bauman: So you worked at several different areas then on the site. Stratton: I did. I sure did. After the K Reactor started slowing down and—I'm trying to recall the date. I think it was 1972 when my work in the K Reactors had gotten to the point where I was no longer needed there. And so I came to the 200 Areas and spent another ten years there in field engineering. Bauman: So could you maybe explain a little more, what would field engineering entail? Like, what sort of things might you typically do on a work day when you were working in the 200 Areas? Stratton: Well, for instance in the K Areas, it would be going out and checking on the operation of the equipment, seeing that it's functioning properly and making repairs if they were minor, or otherwise I'd call a mechanic to come and do the repair work. In the 200 Areas, I was doing both field engineering and field inspection for new instrumentations that were being put in place. Bauman: I want to go back a little bit to you said you first started working in Hanford in 1944. Right? Stratton: Correct. Bauman: Did you know what you were working on? Did you know it was-- Stratton: I've been asked that question many times. Bauman: A lot of times? Stratton: When did you find out that the—what they were doing here at Hanford? I might say this. My background being an electrical engineer and ham radio as a hobby, I had enough electronic experience in my background to begin to figure out from the instruments that we were using pretty much what was being done here at Hanford. So it took a while before I got all the details, but I started figuring out in the early days what was really happening here. Bauman: And do you remember when you first heard the news that the war had ended, anything along those lines? Stratton: I might relate one interesting experience. When they first made an announcement of what was being done here at Hanford, it was just a limited amount of information that was released to the news media. It so happened that my wife and I—this was in 1945—my wife and I were on a vacation trip, and we were at Mount Rainier. And when the news came out, of course, being the closed-mouth person I am, I didn't even say, boo, that I had worked at Hanford. However, my supervisor back in Richland was so afraid that I was going to start talking and say things that I shouldn't about the work that was, that he frantically got hold of me there at the—I think we were at Paradise Inn at the time. He was all concerned that I'd start talking. And I let him know right off the bat that I know not to keep—to keep my mouth shut and not talk—[LAUGHTER] other than what's official or released. Bauman: So he called you while you were on vacation to make sure you-- Stratton: He called me to make sure that I didn't blab my mouth, something I shouldn't say. Bauman: So you sort of mentioned a couple of times the security at Hanford, obviously. I wonder, and you lived in the dorms initially and then lived in a house in Richland. So in terms of security, getting onsite to work every day. Did you drive your car? Did you take a bus? How did that work? Stratton: As I recall, I was using the transportation that was provided, bus transportation. Speaking of security, reminded me of another instance. I might back up a bit here. The people that I had working with me in the 700 Area were available to maintain instruments out on the Hanford Project. We had certain instruments that we would go out and take a look at. So one day I sent one of my personnel out to look at this equipment out in one of the remote areas. And she had a run-in, so to speak with the guards at the gate. She had been doing this job quite a bit, got to know quite a few of the guards at the gate, and she would kid them going through. And this particular day there was a guard at the gate that apparently she had not become acquainted with. And she made—when he asked her something about the equipment that she had—some of the equipment would be taken out for maintenance purposes. He asked her what she was carrying, and she made some remark about it being explosive or something along that nature, which—that was the wrong thing for her to say. And she had quite a hard time explaining herself out of that one. Another instance of security that I can recall—we had some instruments that were manufactured and when they arrived, the meter on the front of the instrument read millirankines. That was a no-no from an information standpoint. We did not want people that were not familiar with what was going on—that was the very early days—what we were actually measuring. And we had to take every one of those instruments out of the case and blank out the word, paint over the word millirankines to keep people who were not privy to the information to be able to read it, know what we were measuring. That gives you an idea of how strict security was in those days. Bauman: And did you have to have a special security clearance to do the job that you had? Stratton: I was issued what was called a Q clearance at the time. I think it was the popular security clearance for most people that would have access to classified information. Bauman: Sure. I want to go back a little bit, again, to that first period during the war when you were living in the dorm. What sorts of entertainment was available on site for all the workers who were living in the dorms? Were there things to do for entertainment? Stratton: [LAUGHTER] I don't recall too much that I got involved in as far as entertainment is concerned. I was never much of a entertainment type person. I didn't do carousing around like some people did. I don't recall too much in the way of entertainment. I might say took some hikes. Four of us actually climbed up the side of Rattlesnake Mountain. That would've been in the early part of 1944. And on another occasion I got out and hiked up to the top of Badger. But I don't recall too much in the way of entertainment that I got involved in in those days. Bauman: And you said that you moved to Richland. You and your wife got married and moved to Richland. What was Richland like at the time as a community in the 1940s and the 1950s? Stratton: Well, in the early 1940s, it was a closed town, of course. And you had to have a reason to be here. I don't remember too much about the details. It just wasn't a lot of interest from my standpoint in the early days. Bauman: Can you think of any events or significant happenings, things that happened at Hanford while you were working there. I know President Kennedy came in 1963 to visit the N Reactor. I wonder if you were there at that time or any other events that stand out in your mind? Stratton: I remember going and seeing Kennedy when he came. I was off at a distance. I was working out in the 100 Areas at the time. And I remember going and seeing him at a distance. I'm trying to think of any other events of particular interest. I can't think of anything to mention right at the moment, Bob. Bauman: Okay. Were there ever any emergencies, fires or anything along those lines that happened while you were working that stand out at all? Stratton: Gee, I can't think of anything of particular interest at the time, Bob. Bauman: You worked, so you worked at Hanford basically from 1944 to 1982, right? Stratton: Right. Bauman: That's almost 40 years. My math. Stratton: Almost 40. Bauman: Long time. You must have seen a fair amount of change take place on the site, in the technology that was used or maybe some of the procedures or policies. I wondered if you could-- Stratton: Probably the biggest change would be in policies—that I can think of. Of course, equipment was updated tremendously over that period of time. And what we started with in the early days was antique by the time I retired. But I think maybe policies were some of the biggest situations that I can relate to. Bauman: Are there any particular policies or practice that stand out that changed? Stratton: Nothing that I can relate to right at the moment. I can't think of anything in particular, but— Bauman: Hanford obviously at some point, it was for years about production and at some point shifted to clean up. Had that started to happen when you were working there? Stratton: Not really. No. There wasn't a whole lot of that activity. Clean up pretty much started after I retired. Bauman: I wonder if there's—what you would like future generations, people who never worked at the Hanford site to understand, to know about working at Hanford during World War II and the Cold War era? Stratton: Well, the thing that some of the people wonder about—we were producing plutonium. Was that a good thing? Well, you have to look at it from the standpoint that the war effort was brought to an end primarily because of the work that we started here with the production of plutonium. It undoubtedly brought the war to an end. That's what the way we have to—the way I would like to look at it. Bauman: And you said you worked there almost 40 years. There were a lot of people who didn't. The termination winds sent a lot of people packing. Stratton: Those were—that’s true. Bauman: You know, what was it that kept you here for almost 40 years? Stratton: Probably getting married. [LAUGHTER] That would be probably the main reason that we decided to stay and raise a family here. I was working in a field that was of interest to me. Like I mentioned, I was a ham radio operator from way back. And I was in the instrument field and the work that I was doing was of real interest for me. And so I had no particular desire to move away from here. So I think that is one of the things that kept me here. Of course, we started our family and from then on this was home. Bauman: So overall, how would you describe Hanford as a place to work? Stratton: Well, for me it worked out to be a very good place. Young people that came along after I'd been here for a few years, like tech grads coming in for a short stay and they wanted to know, do you think this is a good place to try to continue working here? And I would always encourage them to go ahead and apply for employment here at the Hanford Project. Because I think if it was in their field of interest or field of training, that would be a good place for them to work. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to talk about or any special memories or specific memories that you think would be important to talk about? Stratton: I think you've covered it very nicely. Well, I can't think of anything in particular to add to what we've covered so far. Bauman: Well, great. I want to thank you, Monte, for coming. Stratton: Oh, you're sure welcome. Bauman: I really appreciate it. Stratton: Only too happy to do what I could to--I don't know whether this will help the cause very much. Bauman: It's terrific. Yeah. Thank you very much. Stratton: Oh, you're sure welcome. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 215 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 area 700 area F area B reactor K area 200 area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1944-1982 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Monte Stratton Description An account of the resource An interview with Monte Stratton conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-7-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-7-1: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 200 Area 300 Area 700 Area B Reactor F Area K Reactor Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2ef98f841615da0c95bd236509f3be0a.jpg c027cf4d6ac547aa7a70199207bd8864 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F88a6918187bf5609936480b5be0b837c.mp4 2245074063970b1c41729a69fc2e7eca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dick Wiehl Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Northwest Public Television | Wiehl_Dick </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Robert Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Dick Wiehl on June 25 of 2013, and we're conducting the interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking to Mr. Wiehl about his family's history, particularly their history in White Bluffs and the area around there. So I'm going to start with maybe talking about your family first, asking about them. Do you know how and when they came to the White Bluffs area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Dick Wiehl: Well, my grandfather--that's who we're talking about--came in the late 1890s, and it was as a result of advertisement, which was nationwide, I suppose, at the time to get people out here to populate the area. And he came out with the prospect of buying some acreage, which he did, and upon which they established a ranch. And that would have been in the very latest part of the 1890s. Bauman: And do you know where he came from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Minnesota. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Did he come by himself? Wiehl: He came with his father, initially. Then his father went back and lived the rest of his life back in Minnesota. He had a good position back there, but this was an opportunity for a young man to strike out on his own and see if the road was, indeed, paved with gold in the West. And that's how the land was sold. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure. Do you know much about your mother's family? I'm sorry, your grandmother's family, the Craig family, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, and she was Hattie Wright from the Craig family. And she came from Ellensburg, so she was out here even before my grandfather. And how they met, I don't know. But I do know that they were married about 1900, and then moved on together and onto the ranch that my grandfather was then establishing on the banks of the Columbia River. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So could you describe the ranch? I know you didn't really live there, but you spent some summers there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, I was born in 1936, and they were out of there in 1943. So those were the years that--obviously, I don't remember much from 1936. But from about 1940 on, I do. I have vivid memories and stories that were told. And so that's really where my relationship started was about that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Can you describe the ranch? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: It was, in my perspective, it was huge. [LAUGHTER] And it was. There were thousands of acres that were leased, and the ranch, kind of the official ranch itself, was several hundred acres. And, of course, to a child at that time, I'd go with my grandfather, and we'd go horseback riding, and he would be checking on various operations on the ranch on a day-to-day basis, and we'd go all day. [LAUGHTER] And have lunch somewhere in saddle bags, and then come back by evening. And we'd be gone from 7 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock in the evening, just riding on the ranch. Never left it. So it was a big ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. So what sort of crops did your grandfather grow? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, the crops I remember specifically, because I was out there picking potato bugs, were the potatoes. And so they grew potatoes. They had gardens. They were completely self-sufficient. And I remember my grandmother out there working in a large garden, and the other vegetables that they had I wouldn't recall. But there were lots of them, and the potatoes were where I would come in. And they had cattle, a lot of cattle, which were on the rangeland that they had leased. They had goats. They had chickens. And just had horses, obviously horses. Just about every animal that you would need in an operating ranch. And some of the animals were work animals, and some of them were riding, some of the horses were riding horses. And they had a lot of them. And just the care and maintenance of those animals was a full-time job, which was generally done by the women--meaning my grandmother, or the younger kids when they were there, or then eventually my aunt, who was a teenager when they had to move out of there in 1943. Just took care of the chickens and things like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Now did you have siblings or cousins who would spend the summer there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. I had a younger sister, but she was too young to be involved in that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And now the cattle, did they sell any of the cattle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yeah. They were involved in the cattle markets, and I can remember the wailing and moaning over the, this is a Republican cattle market, or this is a Democratic cattle market. [LAUGHTER] Whether things were up or down, that's the way they would talk about it. And they could always blame somebody for the fact that the market was down. So that was important to them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you have any idea where they sold the cattle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, no, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So what other buildings were there besides the ranch house itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: The main ranch house, and then there were a cold room, a big refrigerator, actually, which was an ice room. Several buildings, which were-- The house fronted on a lane. The lane was the highway that actually ran through from Othello and Moses Lake to the Columbia River, where you'd catch it to go over to White Bluffs, which was immediately across the river. And so their front yard was immediately contiguous to that road. Across the road were several buildings. I don't recall how many, but several for machinery. Barns, lean-tos, rather ramshackle but utilitarian structures for the housing machinery. And then they had chicken coops, and they raised goats, and they had goat houses, and so they had a lot of outlying buildings, which were particularized for a certain function on the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And when you spent summers there, was there, for instance, electricity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. There was a telephone, and that was- When I was originally there, there wasn't electricity. In fact, I don't know if there ever was electricity. I think that it was coming, and it may have been there in the latter years, but that was relatively new, if there at all. The telephone, I do remember, because that was exciting when anybody on the line got a call, because everybody was included in it. [LAUGHTER] You'd dial an operator, a central operator that was in White Bluffs. I'm sure that must've been where she was. And she was on a first name basis with everybody. It was one ring here and two rings there, and so the telephone was quite an active source of getting the word out in the small community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So how’d that work? So if the phone rang in the house-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: It’d be two rings; that meant it was your phone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: If it was more than that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Or less, it was somebody else's phone. It didn't make any difference. Everybody went over and got it. [LAUGHTER] And sometimes they’d even join into the conversation when they weren't supposed to be even on the line. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Not a whole lot of privacy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And then what about irrigation? You must have had some sort of irrigation? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: They had irrigation. I can remember wandering through the fields with my grandfather as he--There was blockages that occurred from time to time in the ditches that were coming out from the-- there were outlets for the water. And they had a good irrigation system. They must have taken the water right out of the Columbia, pumped it up there, and distributed it, because the ranch was on a level, probably two or three feet above the Columbia River. So it wouldn't have been difficult to do. Lots of pipe. I remember he had a shipment of pipe come in one time when I was there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: What kind of pipe? Like cement? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. It was, and it was very, very heavy. It'd last forever, I thought, not realizing that the government was going to probably dig it all up in a couple of years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. And then what about the house itself? Do you remember how large it was, how many bedrooms, or anything like that? Wiehl: It had two bedrooms, a master bedroom and a kid’s bedroom, because when I was there, my aunt was still—she was just a couple years older than I. And so she had her bedroom, and my grandparents had their bedroom, and then there was a large sleeping porch on one end of the house, where since I was there in the summertime, I would sleep with my grandfather on this sleeping porch. And there were a room for a couple of other people to sleep out there too if we had guests or something like that. And then there was a huge room in the center of the house, where they had community gatherings. I mean, it was that big. So that if the local farmers wanted to get together for a meeting of some kind followed by snacks or even a dance, they would always have it in that what Grandpa called the great hall. And it was large by my estimation. And then they had the other big room in the center of the house was the kitchen and dining area. And those are the rooms I remember. I'm sure there probably were other rooms that I was never even shown to. But those are the rooms I remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So it was a place where people came. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yes, oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Very definitely. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Wow. And at the time you were there, it was a larger house that had that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes. They kept adding on until--I think it probably took its final shape in about 1920. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Wow. Now, you mentioned your aunt. I wonder if you could just for clarification, state the children, or I guess in your father's generation, who-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, all right. Their dad was born in 1909. Wright, the oldest, was born in 1903. And Elroy, the youngest boy, was, I would say, 1920. And my aunt was 1933. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Quite a range. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. About 20 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. For that time, it was quite a range. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And you were born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: In 1936. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: 1936. In Yakima? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: In Yakima, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And so your family was in Yakima-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: But you would spend summers-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes, I couldn't wait for the summers. I had to get over there and spend time with—Well, I was the baby at that point, and so I loved that. And loved to get over there and play with his tractors. And that's what I would do. He had several tractors. The one that I liked was a very nice John Deere big green tractor. But it was a small tractor for those times. And so I could actually sit on the seat, and by the time I was six, I could reach the pedals. Now to guard against anything ever happening, the battery was always taken out when I came over there, so nothing would go awry. [LAUGHTER] One time I came over though, and I think it was either in '41 or '42, because I had to be at least that old. We pulled down into the driveway, and I jumped out of the car and ran over to the tractor, which was sitting out on the road. I mean, this was the highway that it was sitting out on, which, as I explained earlier, just kind of ran right through the property. And I didn't know it, but the tractor had been used that morning, and my grandpa didn't know exactly when we were coming. In any event, he didn't take the battery out of the tractor. So I jumped on and did what I'd always hoped I could do: drive the tractor. It started, and everybody was standing back completely amazed and shocked and dazed, because I roared down the street. [LAUGHTER] And Dad was running after me and Grandfather on the other side. And I basically said, it's under control. Went down about 100 yards, turned around, brought the tractor back, and stopped it. And Grandpa said, well, I guess we don't have to take the battery out anymore. [LAUGHTER] But thinking of that, what really kind of alarmed me was the fact that I was driving the tractor and having things under perfect control, I thought. But I was a little concerned about my dad running alongside on one side and my grandfather on the other. I didn't think they could hold up a lot longer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] That's a great memory. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. Bauman: So when you were there in the summers, you picked a lot of potato bugs, and you would ride out with your grandfather? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Right. And just a lot of times sometimes play with my aunt. We would go exploring, and the property was vast, and there was always something, a place to go, an island to visit, and so we would just do what kids do, and swim in the Columbia River, and she raised a lot of little chickens. And so we would go out and count the chickens and make sure they were fed and play with them. They were very cute little things. And games. I mean, it was a time when kids would play board games. And so we got pretty good at a couple of those. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And you mentioned it was right on sort of the main road. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Right. It went right through the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. So were there a lot of people driving through? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: From time to time. Nothing like today. But no, there would be two or three cars that I would see a day going in both directions. And I don't even know whether they had a ferry schedule, but I know that my grandfather would go down there at a certain time, which was a horse ride, it would have probably been about a three-minute horse ride down to where the ferry was. And so he was committed to be there at certain hours. So from that, I assume there must've been some sort of schedule, but he wasn't there on call. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So he would, was operating the ferry, take the ferry-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Back and forth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Back and forth to the car on the other side. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. And the whole procedure wouldn't take very long after he got the ferry started up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So was he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: And I went down with him a lot of times. And that was a big thrill, because he would, if they were old diesel, it was an old diesel engine, and he would get that. It seemed like it took forever to get that fired up, but when it was, it would go clunk, de-clunk, de-clunk, de-clunk, and then we would go, de-clunk, de-clunk, de-clunk across the load one place or the other. I don't remember, but it was back and forth. And if there were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: How long did it take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, the ferry ride itself, maybe five minutes. The river was pretty big, but still, you made steady progress. I wouldn't say it was very long. But exciting. And you certainly needed the ferry, because there were no bridges in the area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you know how long your grandfather had been operating the ferry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, I think he ran that for, well, 20 years anyhow. Yeah, because he ran it right up until 1943, and certainly, from '23. That would have been 20 years. That much and probably more. Probably more. Probably back to maybe 13. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: That was probably operating up to 1943. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yeah. Right up to the time they left, and he took the keys with him. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: So did you-- your grandparents' ranch was on one side of the Columbia from White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Mm-hm, was just across the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Across the river. Did you go over there fairly often? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And what sorts of things did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I would be there when Grandpa would take the ferry over, and he'd maybe wait for 10 or 15 minutes or maybe sometimes longer. And if he had business-- he was in charge, so he could pretty well decide when the ferry went back. And the ferry dock was right at the edge of town, and so I'd just walk up. There was a little landing. I'd walk up, and I'd be right in the center of town. The center of town-- we're not talking a big town here. But there were stores there, and I was just-- I'd go in and look around. And maybe sometimes I'd have a nickel or something like that, and I could buy something, generally sweet. And that would be a big, big deal. I picked a lot of potato bugs for a nickel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Do you remember the names of any of the stores? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, no. I remember a hardware store, though, that, in particular, that was just awesome, because it had things all over the walls, and it always sort of looked like a toy store as far as I was concerned. But it was clearly a hardware store. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that at your grandparents' ranch, they often had sort of social events there. Do you remember any community or social events in White Bluffs, the town itself for like 4th of July or anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. No, I don't. I don't remember anything like that. I do remember that my grandparents themselves had a couple of 4th of July-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: --picnics or summer picnics. I don't know whether they were specifically 4th of July, when they would have friends and relatives in to share a lunch. And I can remember picnic tables being set out underneath the trees, and a lot of people being there. Everybody having a good time, and I remember that a couple of times. They were very sociable people. And of course, that was one way that people could get together with their neighbors and discuss the issues of the day, which were generally how to get better, get more income. And all the people in that area were really pioneers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure. Before we started talking, you showed me a photo of your grandfather in a baseball uniform. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Mm-hm. A White Bluffs baseball team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. I don’t know, did your grandfather talk about that often? Do you remember your grandfather talking about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I have no memories personally of it, except that my father talked about the White Bluffs baseball team and was very proud of this picture of his father in uniform of the White Bluffs baseball team. Which was probably circa 1900 at that point. So clearly that baseball was very much a part of civilized life in the Hanford, Richland White Bluffs area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Did you have any interactions with Native Americans in the area at all yourself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I would see them. I myself had no interactions at that time. Later, I got to go onto the Priest Rapids reservation and was invited to one of the last-- oh, they have a name for it-- kind of a big celebration potluck that they had before they built the dam. But no, I didn't. I would see them, but I never had any contact. And the other thing, I wasn't afraid of them or anything like that. It was just that they weren't on my agenda for the day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: How about neighbors? Were there-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: There were virtually no neighbors. The ranch was it. My grandparents knew where their neighbors were, but they had to be a long way away. But they could ride and did ride over to wherever they were. I never saw a neighbor's ranch on our side of the river. So it must've been quite a distance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right, right. And you mentioned you spent a lot of time playing with your aunt. Were there other children? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. No, there were no neighbors. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. So you spent summers there up until 1943. So you and your family were living in Yakima when the government decided to build the Hanford site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Short notice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Short notice, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Very short notice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you have any memories of that, or stories that your parents have told you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, yeah. I have a memory, because I wasn't going there that summer. [LAUGHTER] And it was crisis time, because I'm guessing to a certain extent, but I won't be far off, that they were notified by telephone first and with a letter following. And they had something like 15 to 30 days--very short--in which that they had to get out. And this was the late winter of 1942 or the early part of 1943. Getting out is one thing, but where are you going to go? And so all heck broke loose. I mean, we've got to get out. Where are we going to go? And so the search was undertaken of where, because Grandpa was a rancher. He had all these cattle, horses. And so they eventually found a place near Selah, a ranch near Selah, which they bought. And they moved some of the livestock, which they did take with them. And he started anew in Selah and ran a dairy for probably about seven or eight years until after the war. When at that point, they had to move out. But they didn't have to accept the amount of money that the government gave them, and this was an important point. Some did, but those that didn't still had to move out. But after the war, they could take the government to court and prove that they did not get fair value for their land. And my grandparents did that. Of course, they had their own house attorney, my father. And they got probably in 1946 or 1947 fair value for the acreage that the government had taken. And with that, they then sold the ranch in Selah and bought a huge ranch up by Cle Elum in the Teanaway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: And moved there. Moved there, and lived-- Grandpa lived a short but happy life in that area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Do you have any idea what the fair value was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. But it was substantially more than the government gave. The government wasn't interested in carving up nickels and dimes and half dollars. They wanted the land quickly. They got that, and then they would settle up accounts later. And it was a painful process if you were one of the people that got kicked off your land, but that's the way it worked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. I was wondering, do you remember or heard any stories or heard your grandpa or parents ever talking about their feelings about that, having had started this homestead and having been there for-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: I think they looked at it-- yes, I remember. And in particular, my uncle Elroy, who was pictured in some of those pictures that we were reviewing. He graduated from the University of Washington in 1941. And at that time, he was an ROTC cadet at the Reserve Officers Training program. He had been in that, and so he was going in to the Army in that summer. Well, that's perfect timing [LAUGHTER] for seeing a lot of action during the Second World War. And so he was an officer throughout the war, and, of course, was nowhere around in 1943. He was training for the invasion of Europe at that point in Fort Benning, Georgia, if I recall. And he never saw his--he left as a soldier, and at the end of the war, he couldn't go home. [LAUGHTER] I mean, his life had been uprooted. And that's just his personal case. And he was very matter of fact about it, but talked about it. It hurt him. But so what, really? I mean, we had to win the war. And I think that was the way my grandparents-- I never-- they wanted a fair price, because the government could do that, but they never argued or never felt badly about contributing to the quicker end of the war by the building of the atomic bomb. They felt pretty good about it, I think, that they had made a contribution. But then that doesn't entitle the government to steal it either. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure, right. Let's talk a little bit more then about some of your family members. So you said your uncle Elroy was at University of Washington. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Your father had already gone there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yes. He was a prosecuting attorney in Yakima at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And so you and your family were living there. And then your other uncle, Wright? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, he was the number one son, so he stayed with the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: And so when they were kicked out of there in 1943, Wright went right along with my grandfather, went to Selah, and they bought a house for him right next door to or across the lane from where my grandparents were. And then when they went up to the Teanaway to Cle Elum, he went right along with them, and he was the foreman of everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And then your aunt, obviously, would have been still young, so she-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, she graduated in late, 1950 or something like that from high school and married a man from Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Are there any memories that stand out to you in terms of your times, your summers there that either are something humorous or just something that stands out particularly that we haven’t talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, I had a-- well, I've told you that they had chickens. And so we ate a lot of chicken, and we had a lot of eggs. And my grandmother was very careful in selecting-- we weren't going to eat a good layer. And so if the chicken was really performing out there with the eggs, then that chicken was safe for as long as that happened. [LAUGHTER] And of course, the chickens had to be killed. Well, a lot of times, there was a chopping block out behind the house, and most of the time, my grandmother would go out there and chop the head off. And that was an awesome sight for a little kid, because she would chop the chicken's head off and plop the chicken down. The chicken would run around for a minute or so, until it finally flopped over, and then we had to pull the feathers and get the chicken ready to be put into a pot. Well, handy as my grandfather was, at one point, he went out there to do this trick--chopping the head off—and he took his thumb along with the chicken head. And so he picked his thumb up, and he was way ahead of his time on that, and cauterized the wound, and then drove all the way to Yakima, which was the closest major hospital where he could get aid. And that was a long drive in an old pickup, or new at that time. It was an awesome feat. And he got there, and they said, no, we can't reattach the thumb. Which today they probably could do. Later that year, I had a friend in Yakima, and Grandpa would come up and visit us every once in a while. I had a friend, basically the same age, say, probably seven or eight, who sucked his thumb constantly. Little Ronnie, and he was always sucking his thumb. And Grandfather came out one day. We were playing out near the driveway where the car was. And Ronnie was sucking his thumb, and Grandpa says, you got to be careful about that, kid. You got to be careful. You shouldn't do that. And he says, I did, and look what happened, and he put up his hand, and there was no thumb, just a-- Ronnie took his thumb out of his mouth, and I don't think he ever popped it back in again. That was it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: That solved the problem. [LAUGHTER] So that was a-- I was startled myself. [LAUGHTER] And that's one of the things that happened there that was kind of funny. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. How would you, from your memories, describe your grandparents? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Very loyal, to start with, and very much involved in one another's lives, because they were in this together. A great feeling being around them. A great feeling. They were involved in everything together, and Grandmother was--Grandpa was smart. Grandmother was just as smart, and the two of them had physical constitutions. We had to be made of steel to live in there, and they were, emotionally and physically. That's a rare thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Right. Yeah. Like to do what they did at the time they did is, owning that ranch and so forth, yeah. Did you see any other extended family much at all, either on your grandmother's side or your grandfather's die? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Oh, the extended-- Wright was there, the oldest brother, because he was the chief hand. And he would be involved everyday on what needed to be done on the ranch. And one of the reasons my grandpa could slip away and run the ferry, because Wright was tending the ranch. He had a wife that lived there on the premises in another house. So that adds to the houses, which I forgot about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: But they were always close at hand. And then he had a daughter. Wright had a daughter. He had a wife and a daughter, and the daughter then married, and her husband came on as a hand, too. So they had four or five other people that were in the mix all the time, all relatives. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: What was their last name, Wright's daughters and husbands? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Bobbi was her name, and I can't remember. Gaige. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Gaige, okay. I'm going to then go back and talk about your grandfather a little bit more. When we were talking earlier, I mentioned looking at census records. In 1940, he was the numerator of the census. I know he was very active in the community in addition to just being very busy with the ranch. Were there other positions, community positions that he held? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, he was the deputy sheriff in both counties, and that was important that it be in both counties, because you never knew which way the crooks were going to come, you see. [LAUGHTER] And he had a jail on either side of the river. And he had a photographic memory, which was the reason that he kept active those two jails, because they were all the wanted posters would come to him. They would go up on a bulletin board in the ferry boat or on the ferry boat. So if people were on the ferry, and there was nowhere to go. I mean, once you were on the ferry, you were stuck. You were like in a jail right then and there. If you were so unlucky as to be identified on the ferry, you would be escorted off at the other end to a local jail. And Grandpa picked up a lot of-- I don't know a lot, but enough to talk about-- of people going back and forth over the river there. So he was very much involved in that process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Were there ever any stories? Did he tell you any stories about any particular-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, I remember, this had nothing to do with the wanted posters, but it had to do with the jails. Since he was a deputy sheriff in both counties, occasionally, there might be a law enforcement issue. And generally, that involved people going across to White Bluffs, cowboys after a roundup, and having too much alcohol. Then the alcohol would take control of the situation. They'd get noisy, boisterous, maybe unruly, and when they got past the noisy area and into the unruly, then they would call for Grandpa. And that happened a couple of times, and one time, specifically, he went down there, and he would deputize people right on the spot. And they would take the drunken cowboys and throw them into the jail. Well, the one time they did that, two or three of them were thrown into jail, locked up, and Grandpa basically said, well, we'll see you in the morning and let you out then. Well, when he got there in the morning, the jail was gone. Somebody-- his friends, these cowboy friends-- the jail wasn't very big-- they had lassoed the jail, pulled it off its little foundation that it was on, taken it 100 yards down the river and broken them out. [LAUGHTER] And he said, much to their credit, they came back sheepishly a few days later, helped move the jail back to where it was supposed to be, and repaired it so it was as good as new. [LAUGHTER] So the story had a happy ending, but I mean, that was kind of the justice of the old West, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah. So was this jail in the town of White Bluffs itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Just on the edge. Closer to the river. He had it on both sides of the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And then on the Franklin County side, was it right on the river too? Close to it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah. Both sides were very-- more like a little outhouse. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Which was susceptible to lassoing and moving, apparently. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Yeah, right. It's that small. I think I know you were just there in the summers, so you didn't attend school-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: --in White Bluffs. Churches-- do you remember churches? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Did your grandparents go to church over there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, no, there probably was one. I'm sure there was one in White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: But you don’t have any memories-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: But I have no memory of going there, and I doubt if my grandparents did. They were probably still involved in the workday affairs of the ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: Sure. And then I guess, any other memories that you have-- you told some great stories. [LAUGHTER] Is there anything else that you remember from your summers there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: No, not specifically. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: And I guess the other question would be, obviously, the town of White Bluffs then in 1943 essentially ceased to exist. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Yeah, it did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: That community. Why do you think it's important for us to remember the town, for future generations maybe to know about White Bluffs and the things that people like your grandparents did there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Well, right now, it's forgotten. And that doesn't seem to be fair. A town should, once started, should live out its natural life. And this did not happen with White Bluffs. Its natural life was truncated suddenly by Presidential decree. And I think that an effort should be made to still let White Bluffs live out its natural life, and making a history of it may help. It may also help bring closure to a lot of the people that are now content that their story has been told. Here, living in Yakima, we tell our own story. We're there to tell our own story. But the people here didn't have that opportunity. So I think it's important. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: All right, well, thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming here and doing the interview-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: My pleasure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: --and telling the stories. They were terrific. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Wiehl: Get myself unhooked there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX201929330"> Bauman: I'll help you out. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:45:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 235 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Wright, Hattie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dick Wiehl Description An account of the resource An interview with Dick Wiehl conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-29: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/16/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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Horseback riding swimming White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0679822ca9a8d5569e80be87de0ba644.jpg fafae55dc6d92c14429447cdc4838c1e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F60f5c824efd8721582df5663210be323.mp4 92c5db41aace0c6b2629087ff6826582 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emma Kleinknecht Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Northwest Public Television | Kleinknecht_Emma </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Robert Bauman: I'm conducting an oral history interview with Emma Larson Kleinknecht if I have the name right, correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Emma Kleinknecht: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And the spelling is K-L-E-I-N-K-N-E-C-H-T? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Correct. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Excellent All right. Make sure we have the spelling right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And today's date is June 12, 2013 and we're conducting the interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Ms. Kleinknecht about her family's history, her experiences growing up in Richland, in that community. So let's just start, if I could, by asking you about your family. How, and why, and when did they come to this area? What brought them here, and any information about your family and why they came here would be great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, my dad came from Denmark. And he went up to Alaska and worked in the mines. And then he came down to Seattle, and after a while, he got interested in working with the cattle. So somehow or another he came over to Richland and met my mother over there, and she was single. And then he married her, and I was born 1918. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And your mother, was your mother born and raised in Richland or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. She was born and raised on the coast. But she had relatives that lived over that way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know when your parents married? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, a couple years before I was born. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And how about any siblings? Are there any brothers or sisters? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yes. There were six, three girls and three boys. And then when I was eight years old, my dad came in the house, he says, "Emma, you've got to learn to milk cows." Because the girls were first, you know. So I went out and helped milk cows, or learned how. And from then on, I milked cows. But all of us had to go out and pitch hay to make hay for the cattle, and we put it on a big haystack. And there's a picture of that here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So you had a place with lots of cattle? Do you have any idea how many cattle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, we had eight cows, two horses. Because in them days, you never had tractors, so you had to have horses, to do all the outdoor work like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And did you grow any crops? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yes! We raised everything by hand. We had corn, and tomatoes, and you name it. All the vegetables there were. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And were those primarily for your family? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. And then the cream, we separated and sent it down to Kennewick to the creamery where they made butter. And, course you got paid for it. And, let's see, what else-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: How big was the place that you had-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think we had about 20 acres. We had a lot of asparagus, and us kids had to cut asparagus before the school bus came, or we didn't get to go to school. But we went to an old country school, where was one teacher, five grades. There's a picture of me in one of them pictures. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was this in Richland or? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Old Richland, up north. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We never got downtown for a while. It was really something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So you said five grades and-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Five grades and one teacher. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And do you have any idea of around how many students that would've been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I used to know, but I forgot. [LAUGHTER] That was back when. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. And how long did you go to school there, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think I was in the fifth grade and then, about that time, we had a school bus that would take us downtown to the old schools. I called them old, because they're so different [LAUGHTER] now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: You have a photo you wanted me to show? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. This is the country school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay, great. So it looks like there's maybe, what, 20 or 30? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Could be. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Is there something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It could be. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: 1925? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's about right. I wrote it down there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, 1925. Fruitvale School. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: And this school was used for a church, and a dance hall, and a grange hall. Because, see, all the farmers were grangers. So that was in the good old days. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And so--that's a great photo--After that, after, say, fifth grade, where did you go to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Downtown. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: There was a grade school and a high school down there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I think you sent us some photos of you playing basketball, maybe? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah! That was downtown. That was a different kind of basketball. I was a side center. I'm the second one there. The tallest girl was the center, and then I was a side center because I was shortest. Then there were two guards, and two forwards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: And now they play just like the boys do. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, it says champion basketball. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, that one is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, 1935, '36. That's great. Do you remember how long you played? Did you play throughout high school then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah. That's what this is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you remember if there were other sports for girls to play in high school besides basketball? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's all we played, anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So I assume the schools in downtown Richland were a little bigger? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. There were five grades in one building. Then we went over to the high school. And right by the high school was a Methodist Church and a Seven Day Adventist. Catholics all had to go downtown because there were no church. And so my dad found some building, and had to make a Lutheran church, because all Scandinavians were Lutherans. And that's where he came from. So we all became Lutherans. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So you talked about that early school building, in Fruitvale, being used as a school building, a church, a grange. I was wondering about other social activities, or community activities that you might remember growing up. Were there Fourth of July celebrations, or community picnics or any of those sorts of things? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, I've kind of forgot, but I think that it could've been used for anything. But those other things were always the big things. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Them were the days. And I had to run from our house, across the sagebrush to the school. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So what sorts of things growing up did you do for fun? Did you do fishing, or did you go swimming in the river, or any of those sorts of things? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, my dad, when we were little, would take us down at the river and get us swimming to get cleaned up, so we could go to church. [LAUGHTER] See, we weren't too far from that Columbia River where we used to live. But that was in the summertime. [LAUGHTER] So we were tickled to death to get to go down there and swim. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did the river ever freeze over when you were-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Not when we went down there. This was only in the summer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, sure. So the place where you grew up, in addition into a house, did you have a barn? Was there other buildings like an outhouse, anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah. We had outdoor toilets. Pumped our water out of wells, and when we milked the cow we had a separator, and had to separate the milk and get the cream. Yep, we had all them old things. Had to pump water for washing clothes, taking baths, and put water in big tea kettles so you could wash dishes. It was a different world then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did you have electricity at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. Not for years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: How long did you live there in that place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Gosh, I don't remember. It seems like my dad passed away, and my mom sold our house. And we moved over next to that school house. There was an old building there. And she still kept a few cows, and just had a garden, and like an orchard out in the fields. So after that, we were catching school buses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: When you were growing up, what might a typical day have been like for you as a young girl? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: The what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What might a typical day have been for you as a young girl-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: The things you might have done on a typical day as a young girl, growing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. Well, I joined the 4H group. For one thing, and we really had a lot of fun. Learned how to sew, and cook, that's what 4Hs were in them days. I don't know if they still have them or not. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I believe they do, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Do they? Yeah, those were the days. Then there's times we'd, a few of us neighbor kids, get together and walk down the river, and walk back up, and swing on swings. That was about the size of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I wonder if you remember anything--the Great Depression came along in 1929 or so, and I wonder if you remember, with the Depression, anything specific that had impacted your family, or the community in any way? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. I think because we raised everything we ate, my mom canned everything. And everything we had was from the ground. And none of us suffered from it. Because we had our own milk and those kind of things. Nope, them were the days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And so where were you living in 1943 during World War II, when the federal government came and created the Hanford site? Were you still-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, I was married then. I got married in '38. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That was a bad thing. The government gave everybody a check. They didn't even know this was coming. And told them to get out, take everything you got and leave. So my mom went to Grandview. Some of them went up there, some went to Prosser, and a couple of them stayed there. But they all had to leave town and they went to Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So your mother was still living on the same place at that time and she left and to Grandview? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. Bauman: Were any of your younger siblings still living with her, or-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, I think they were, because I was the oldest one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And so you said you got married in 1938? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: '38, yeah. Bauman: And who was your husband? How did you meet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Umm, he was a friend of my sister's boyfriend. [LAUGHTER] That's how I met him. In fact, his folks they didn't live too far from where we built a big house and lived in there, on Westhood Avenue. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So you said that you moved to Kennewick, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What was Kennewick like in 1938-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It was real small. Just a small town, and it was just groceries and a couple drugstores. It's not pool halls like you go down there now. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And what did your husband do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: He was just a--oh, he was a farmer but afterwards, he worked out in Hanford in the fire department. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know how long he was there or worked at the fire department? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I'm trying to think. They let him go, and then he got sick and passed away. It was probably something from out in that area. But that's been several years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Now, you mentioned going back to talking about the place where you grew up, that you had a well for water-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, we pumped our water out of the well. For even the cows and the horses. And we had to bring the horses up to the pump, because that's okay. But he carried the water in a big wheelbarrow, in buckets, to put in a barrel down for the cows. Because he wasn't about to, I'm sure, drag them up there. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And did you have irrigation at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yes! Oh, yes, not for the house, but for the fields. Oh yeah, we had K.I.D., just like they got now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Were there any other photos, Gary, that you wanted to talk about, or any other-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Well sure. We've got her graduating class. Just--I'll hold it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What year is-- You said you graduated high school in what year is that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: '38, or '36. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: 1936. Graduating class of how many is that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Graduating class of 15. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Was that Columbia high school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: The old Richland, right, sure. Richland, High. Then it became Columbia, the Columbia High, you're right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. Two, four, five boys, and the rest are girls. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did you stay in contact with a lot of your high school friends after? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh after I graduated and got married we all kind of--then several years ago we had picnic lunches together, but that's been a while back. But not many of them are here anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you remember any of your teachers from the high school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. That basketball player, oh that guy there. In the middle, up there, Mr. Carmichael. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, is that Mr. Carmichael? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Isn't that who the school was named after? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Was he a principal? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. He was a good guy. There was a grade school and a high school in downtown Richland. And that was-- I can't see the—193-what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Five. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. Both are in 1935. Do you know where in Richland that would have been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. You know where John Dam's grocery store used to be? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: No, is it-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: On Kennewick Avenue. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: You don't know either, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I know where to pick them out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I know where the Amon Building is. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, just back there a ways. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: But see, that's all that was around those buildings, just little-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Yeah, not a whole lot of other buildings there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. I think there's a toilet in the back out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah, I would hope so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Are there any things that you remember growing up or that really stand out to you that--memories you have, or things that you think would be really important for people to know about this place where you grew up that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, they would never have realized how we made our living off the ground. Kids nowadays won't do that. Okay, here is us kids driving the horses. Because we had no tractors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And that's you and a couple of your siblings? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep, a couple boys. Yep. That's old Prince and Henry. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And did you have the horses then the whole time you were growing up? You never got tractors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, when my dad was alive, we never had a tractor. And there's that one with the hay. Okay, that's how—Show them. Show them how the haystacks were. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Can you talk about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. I know us kids would get the hay in big stacks. Then we'd throw it up on this wagon. And then tie--they had a rope here and here, and then time we got down to the haystack, they'd tie that rope up above in there, and then pull it over. Roll it, that's how they got the hay in a big stack. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Sounds like a lot of work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It was. In the winter time, they'd take a great big canvas and cover the top of the hay, so it wouldn't get wet and ruined. That's how they fed the cattle and the horse. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I was going to ask you about any neighbors. Who were your closest neighbors, or did you have any really good friends when you were growing up that you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. These are all--were my neighbors when I grew up. First grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh. Who are they? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Tell them about them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, okay. That's, the Kaas boy, I can't think of his name right now. He lived right down a ways. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Is that Gordon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: It's at the bottom, Mom. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, did I write it there? Oh, Ed Kaas, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: And then Phillip Hempcry, right there and me, oh, and Carol Hansen. He's the little guy. But they're no relation. Yep. They all live not too far apart. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Right. In fact, I just talked to Gordon Kaas this morning. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh did you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: See, and then there was also another one. Started with an F. Oh, phooey. He lived down the Pole Line Road. There was an irrigation canal between the school and the other families' farms. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And so you lived close enough to those families where you could-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We played all the time, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Gee, I can't think of that name, and I know it like I do even mine. I'll think of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [LAUGHTER] Oh! Yeah, my dad wanted to be baker. This is in Denmark. And his dad didn't want him to be a baker, so he and his cousin jumped something and come to the United States from Denmark. And that's how come he met my mom and that's how come I'm here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So, did he come to the United States-- do you know why the United States, was it just for opportunity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, to get a good job. He wanted to maybe get to be a baker here. But he and his cousin, they went to Alaska. Then they come to Seattle and worked on a farm. And that's what got him interested. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's interesting because Gordon Kaas said that--I was just talking to him this morning--his father is from Denmark. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. So two families from Denmark living very close. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, I'll be darned! What was his name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Kaas. His first name was--well, Gordon Kaas was the man I talked to this morning, but I think you're talking about his older brother-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Harold. I'll be darned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, their father was from Denmark. Initially, they went to Oregon somewhere-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So, I’m trying to think of any--I guess one other question to ask you is, So you were married in '38 and moved to Kennewick, and I was just gonna ask you about when--do you remember finding out about, for instance, about World War II? The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, do you remember any of that? Any memories about hearing about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Pearl Harbor. I knew about it, and forgot about it. Who do I know about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It's what started World War II. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Pearl Harbor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. Another question, Did you have--How did you get news? Was there a newspaper or anything? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. Newspaper. When we were married, we had a little radio for a while, and then we got a TV. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: But when you were growing up, it was a newspaper? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Always. And a radio. Oh when I grew up, you never had televisions. I don't think anybody did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you wanna tell them about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh. Well, this is my mother, and sisters and brothers, and there's the horse. [LAUGHTER] See, that's how we heated up our house, with wood. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah, sure, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Everybody did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: What was the horse's name again? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Prince, one was Prince and one was Henry. I think that was probably Henry, because Prince was a little fussier. And I don't think they would carry him out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So the horses were obviously very important. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: For doing a lot of the work on your place. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. Because we never had tractors. In fact, you couldn't afford to buy one if you did, if you would want one. Nope. Them were the days. Oh, yes, and here's my momma and my papa, and my two sisters. One of them's me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: You're the oldest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Second. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, you're the second? Okay. That's a great photo. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, my dad-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So that would've been some time in the 1920s, huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Early. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. He's from Denmark. And he-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know where-- You said she was living in Richland, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Do you know where her family came from? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, like, over on the coast. I was trying to think of the little name. Yelm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, Yelm, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Is that what you said, she had relatives here and that's why-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's why she came over. I think she had a sister or an aunt or something. Nope, but I'll never forget our school days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: We're getting kinda low on them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you wanna talk about--well, you've seen--No, that's the little kids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, the grade school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Let me hold it, Mom. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Just a minute, I gotta look at them. Oh, this is everybody in that school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: That's your first grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. 1925. That's my first grade, yeah, but that's the five grades. They all dressed alike in them days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> [LAUGHING] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We were all poor people. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So if someone is to you, like, what sort of place Richland was like to grow up in, what would you--how would you describe it? What would you say to them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: In them days? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Yeah. When you were growing up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, I'd been in that place for so long. I don't know. Because there was an irrigation ditch from the school to—you cross the bridge, then we'd go home. We used to stop and go swimming. Oh, I kinda liked where I lived. And then, of course, after I got married my mom went to Grandview. But that wasn't my cup of tea. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did your brothers and sisters, stay in the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I'm trying to think. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Or did they move elsewhere? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think they moved elsewhere. I know one went down to Oregon, and the other went up north further. And then my oldest brother was a heavy smoker. And he had to go pass away. I don't know where he ever got money to buy cigarettes, but he did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Anything else about growing up here in Richland that you want to make sure we know about, or? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, I just like the town, Old Richland. And then where there is a yellow building, like before you go down to the park, brick building, that used to be a two story building. And now it's only one. There was a John Dam store, and a Murray Hardware, and--oh, what do you call them? It'll come to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Name some names, quick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Describe, what? Describe it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: The store. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah, describe it. What did they do there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, like the shave and cut your hair. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Oh-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Barbershop. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Barbershop? Yeah. Was there a movie theater down at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Not in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: No? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: You had to come to Kennewick to go to a movie. [LAUGHTER] And they were cheap, ten cents. Cheap now, I don't know if it was cheap then. [LAUGHTER] My dad did take us kids to a movie once for a dime but it had to be a special. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Right, sure. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No, them old days. Right now they're good old days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] All right, well-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Would you like me to prompt her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Sure, if there's something that you think-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I can probably pull a story or two out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Sure, that's fine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Okay. Did you guys have dances? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Okay. Did-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: In that school house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: And did your parents participate? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, heavens, yes. This is the grange hall, after the meetings. My dad danced with every lady. But my mom wasn't dancing. So I asked her why? She said, "I'm a Sunday school girl." But she never learned to dance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So she wasn't gonna dance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. She's a Sunday school girl. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Did your dad ever help you gals, or your brothers and sisters get out to go to dances? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: With him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, we all went to the dances. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: But your mom didn't approve? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: She went along, but she didn't dance. But I'd learned to dance all kinds of dances. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you remember when the last time you danced was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: At your wedding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: You did there too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We out danced every-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was your 90th birthday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah. You danced with me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That's a couple years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [LAUGHTER] I forgot. Yeah, I love to dance. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: So the dances were in that same building as the school and the church grange meetings, or were they different? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: As we grew up, they were in there. But as we got older and the bigger schools they didn't do it anymore. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: We all went downtown to the schools, because they were much better schools. More new, indoor toilets, drinking water, everything. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you remember when your dad got sick eventually and died, do you remember any of the stories that go along with that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. I know he passed away at home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Do you remember what he died of? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: I think it was his heart. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: It was what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: It was, you called it, the yellow jaundice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, I'd forgotten that. Yeah. That's been a while back. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Yeah, it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah, hepatitis. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I was gonna ask you, you and your siblings, were you all born at home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: All at home? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah. Nope, doctors never come to your house in them days. You had to deliver them yourself. Nope, them were different days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Any other stories you think we should talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: If you give me a minute. Earlier there was a question about the river freezing over. It certainly wasn't when you guys went swimming-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Did it freeze in the winter? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: Was it common? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [Nods] When it froze. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Did you ever go ice skating on it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: No. We stayed away from it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I was also gonna ask you, I understand there was a ferry that would transport people across the river, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Somewhere-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Down south at Kennewick. It crossed over to Pasco. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: And that's how people could get across. There weren't any bridges at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Yeah there was, but it was way down, like where it is now. But if you wanted to take the ferry over from Richland, you wouldn't have to drive clear down there. And we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: How about the Timmerman ferry? Do you remember that one? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: That name sounds familiar. That was the one across the Yakima? ‘Cause the other one-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I think it was near the mouth of the Yakima, but I think it crossed the Columbia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Could be. I've heard the name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: I'm not sure, it was before my time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: I think that might be right. I think that's what I heard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your memories. And the photos are great as well, those are terrific photos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Sure, I hope I give you some good— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Oh yeah! It's very interesting stuff to hear about from people who lived here. Who know what was going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: People would never done what we did. [LAUGHTER] God. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Bauman: Well thank you very much, I really appreciate you coming-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Imagine, milking cows? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: They still do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: Well some places. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Gary: With machines. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX99502551"> Kleinknecht: With machines, yeah. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:35:20 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 240kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1918-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kass, Ed Hempcry, Philip Hansen, Carol Kaas, Gordon Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emma Kleinknecht Description An account of the resource An interview with Emma Kleinknecht conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-13: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/12/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c663b7d3d71590850e6b15129f5807f.jpg 06e1f10cf2e38fb3e3dfb0b8752d48eb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe2e54b58cdd2f5fab7a12a0708dc2830.mp4 79bd6450065d4f81f08c69238dc284b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Snyder, Wayne Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Snyder_Wayne_1 Wayne Snyder: That was always the worst thing when I worked was public speaking. I don't know how they do it. All three of my children are--they all speak about their professions. My son sings publicly and everything, but they came from a dad who isn't that much around— Robert Bauman: Not much for public speaking? Snyder: Oh Amos, if you stay down, it's okay. Bauman: Okay, we good? All right, let's go ahead and get started. Snyder: Okay. Bauman: Let's start by just having you say your name and spell it for us. Snyder: Okay. Wayne Snyder, W-A-Y-N-E, S-N-Y-D-E-R. Bauman: All right, and today's date is September 4th, 2013. Snyder: Correct. Bauman: And we're conducting this interview in Mr. Snyder's home— Snyder: Right. Bauman: --in Richland. So let's start by maybe having you tell me about how you came to Hanford, how you heard about the place, when you came. Snyder: Okay. Well, I was at University of Colorado. I graduated there in 1950 in chemistry, and GE was one of two outfits that interviewed me. They were offering a salary of $54 a week, and that beat out the government job in Rifle, Colorado doing oil shale by about $5 a week. So I accepted this, thinking I was going to the General Electric research laboratory back in Schenectady, New York, but wound up--oh, no, you're going to Hanford. We need to people out there. So I got on the—well, my parents came to my graduation; they put me on the train to Richland. And I got here in the middle of night in Kennewick, and I had only a bus ticket from Pendleton to Kennewick. GE was supposed to pick me up, but they didn't. So I was fumbling around with all my luggage, all of my worldly belongings, and looking for a motel. A lady came by and said, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm trying to get to Hanford or to Richland, if you know where that is. She said, oh yeah. She said, I'm picking up my son who is just off shift down here. Can I give you a lift up to town? So we pulled into Richland, and it was about midnight by this time. And the city lights were pretty much on, and I thought, wow. You know, it looked to me at that time kind of like Las Vegas, all lights lit up, very contemporary. Bell Furniture had its lights on on its sign. And the building I went to was the Hanford House, which was called then the Desert Inn, a structure that preceded the existing building. And it was an old army facility, and everything looked like army around here. And I went in, and I said, I would like to get a room for tonight if I could. And they said, sure. I said, first I got to tell you. I have a check for $35, if you could cash that it would help me to pay for the place. And they said, oh sure. So I spent the night, on the second floor, woke up and looked out my window. And it was the most bare—just place without any life or anything except for the big river that I could see flowing by. And I thought, oh God, if I can just earn enough money to get a car, I'll get out of here. But I'm here later, all this time. Excuse me, my voice is cracking on me. And so I was taken over to the 703 Building, which was at that time where the Federal Building is today. And it was the headquarters for all of the Hanford site General Electric company top dogs, and the AEC, as DOE was in those days. And it was a white—just white, wooden building like everything in town, looking like an army camp, and a big building though. It had a main hallway that extended, I think, five wings, and so you would go in the building, and here's the big lobby. And I was taken to a place where they would interview me again, I think. And they said, oh you're a tech grad aren't you? And that was because I was wearing a blue sport coat and a tie. And he said, oh, yeah, you're not coming to dig ditches. you're coming to be a professional. I said, well, that's good. And so they oriented me and told me where I would be working, and asked if everything was going well. I was living in a dormitory in North Richland at that time, and that was about—what it is, six miles out of town from the Federal Building. So they made sure I could get the bus and get to work and stuff like that, but told me I'd be working out at the bismuth phosphate process, the 200 East 271 Canyon. It's the building that today they are just calling the Queen Mary. Its sister building is, the 271-T. But 271 was the B Plant, and it did the batch processing of all of the irradiated fuels in the 100 Areas, dissolved them up, separated them out by this bismuth phosphate precipitation process. Refined them through pretty much a high concentration plutonium nitrate solution. And that went on off to the 330--233 B, which was over in Two West Area. And you are not interested in the rest of the process, because it just gets boring. But anyway, I got out to work. I took the bus out, which became a very, very common thing every day. Run out and catch the bus, and go 30 miles through the desert to the north and get to the 300 Area. Excuse me, the 200 East Area. And go into my little building, which was the analytical laboratories associated with the big processing canyon building. And there I did various analytical tests, you know, determining how much plutonium in the solution, what were the concentrations of the fission products, and what was left? And we started out with the initial dissolution of the batch process, and they would dissolve up in nitric acid. I don't know how many--fuel slugs, we called them in those days--they are now the fuel element. But they were about eight inches long, and about that big in diameter. And a whole batch of them would get dissolved up—you know, half a ton or something like that. And then we would measure all of the concentration of the various elements as it went through the precipitation process. And we took it through the lithium--the wait a second--hafnium fluoride. I'm getting confused here. This has been quite a few years ago--through a concentration and there the f-10 p sample went on to the Two West Area where the oxalate precipitation took place. And at that time, that was the end of the processing at Hanford. It went through a plutonium solution, plutonium nitrate, was bottled up in very safe containers and shipped to either Los Alamos, or to, I believe, Oak Ridge. And Los Alamos was able to go ahead and make metal out of it from which they fashioned to the various bomb pits. And we sort of ended there, but a few years later, as a matter of fact I worked at it, they built what's now called the Plutonium Finishing Plant. But it was at that time the 234-5 Building, and I worked there again as an analytical chemist in the analytical laboratories. And we were measuring the purity of the plutonium, the amount of extraneous materials. And unlike the bismuth phosphate process where we were worried about the radiation—the very high level gamma irradiation—over at 234-5, we were worried more about contamination from the plutonium. Plutonium gives off no radiation that penetrates anything, but if you ingest it, you've had it. And so we'd be in gloveboxes and protective clothing, and I don't think we had anything over our faces. But I remember reaching through the glovebox and refining all of the plutonium. And then I was a spectrometer. We did a spectrometric analysis of the old fashioned kind, where we burned it off, caught the rays that came off of it, and then we could read all of the barium, the cesium, the plutonium, everything in it. And that would go back to the processing, and if it was determined clean enough and everything, it would then be sent on—the metal from which it came--would be sent on to Los Alamos for processing. But very quickly after that, they built the lines, the ABC and whatever line, which went ahead and processed the metal—the plutonium metal into a shape, which was then shaped into the bomb pit that was being built at the time. And it's not thought of that Hanford ever really handled the metal or produced weapons—weapon parts, but we did for quite a few years. And that seems like a long part of my life, those three years from 1950 up until 1953, when I was kind of tired of that. And I think they were tired of me, perhaps, out at that area too. I interviewed for and got a job in radiation monitoring. And the nice thing about it, it was the first time I lived closer to town. It was--that facility was officed in the 300 Area. And it was day shift. That other time I worked shift work the whole time. This was ABCD shift. It was 24/7. The plants were operating constantly. And so I would be working day shift, then swing shift, then graveyard shift, and it's rotated, so that you were cut out of your night life for every two out of three--let me get it straight--weekends. And all my buddies that I was with in the dormitories had all--they were day shift. And they worked Monday through Friday, they would take off weekends for the mountains or for the rivers or for the fun times. And I would get to go every third long weekend. I was off from Friday morning graveyard until Wednesday afternoon swing shift, so I had what's called a long weekend which is four full days of fun and playing except, there was nobody around that I liked, that I enjoyed. There were a lot of people worked those shifts. But most of them were operators in the production plants, or were at least a part of the continuing plutonium production and not into research or other more fun things like they did in 300 Area. Well, I was able to do that for about two more years or so, and in 1955, I was interviewed and joined a group called the Graphite Group. This group was involved in studying graphite, which is the main moderator. It's that big black block in the center of the reactors which slows the neutrons down to absorption velocity, so that they get struck in the 235 and cause it to fission, or are absorbed in the 236, and ultimately through neptunium become plutonium. And the graphite was swelling badly in the reactors. It was a fairly low temperature thing in the reactor, and the power level was around 250 megawatts. I think that was the design level. They ultimately got to operating up over 1,000 megawatts, so that was a lot. But anyway back to the graphite. I would get samples made and little cylinders and get them shaped up by the machinists, and then we would irradiate them in the test holes in the reactors. I would work out at the reactors quite often. We would be putting samples in the test holes. Getting them out, putting them in, taking them out. And then I could measure the graphite samples, as to how much dimensional change they had made. And at that time, all of them grew slightly, very slightly. But in the full size reactor, it was enough growth that the reactor was beginning to really buckle. It sunk in the middle and grew on the edges, so that the process tubes which used to go straight through the reactor began to be a shape that started higher, sunk down in the center, and went out. And they got so bowed that eight inch slugs or fuel elements would not go through them. And they would charge them in for re-irradiation—or for their first cycle, they would almost not go through those process tubes. The process tubes were aluminum. They were surrounded with water which cooled them, and the fuel elements then did its thing, fission, and made all this heat and fission products and stuff that we're still trying to get rid of here at Hanford. But that was really fun because it was day shift, it was not doing analytical chemistry. And I was working with more people who—well, all of the tech grads who did analytical work were really fun, but it got me in with the crowd, like John Fox as a matter of fact. And it just seemed more like what it was supposed to do with my life—a highbrow chemist in a research setting. But with my bachelor's degree, that wasn't the best preparation for highbrow scientific work. And I did some artwork back in those days. It was always a phase of mine. And when I got my chemistry degree, I really wished that I had gotten a bachelor's in fine arts, but I knew that would pay for nothing. [LAUGHTER] So I decided, well, to make it in fine arts, I better do something. So my wife and I got married, and we went off to Mexico where I produced a portfolio of artwork. It was a good enough to get me into one of the best commercial art centers in the country. It was called The Art Center in Los Angeles, California. And there again, I loved it. But I lasted about, oh, four months, I’ll say, into the first quarter. I was doing very well, but the people who were assigning the work would hang over you. And they would evaluate what you did, and they would find it lacking, because it wasn't as professional as they were. And so I enjoyed it though, but I thought, if I'm going to have a wife and maybe a family, I’d better earn a living. So I called my old boss at Hanford. Said, you know this art stuff isn't really working for me. Is there anything back there that I could do? He said, well, come on back, Wayne. So I joined the Graphite Group again briefly, but they let me interview around until I found something that would be a more likely career, something that would actually let me promote in career and stuff. And I joined a job—joined a group called the Programming Group, and it was the first of an outfit being put together that looked at the whole plant's operation. And they were responsible for resolving all of the programs that were going on. So we did the report writing and the final merging of all of the Plutonium Recycle Program, was the primary source of this stuff. And the plutonium recycle program went on from about--I'm going to say '58. I was married '58, so this would be '59. And as a matter of fact, again, joining with John Fox, who was one of the designers of the PRTR. And we were, at that time, probably rooming together in old Bauer Day house which were the first nongovernment owned houses in Richland. Spokane built of an outfit called the Spokane Village, which are the—oh, what would you call them, honey? The houses along George Washington Way, between it and Stevens north of the old Uptown area, those white, two-bedroom, three-bedroom buildings with white, I suppose, asbestos shingles and stuff. Anyway, where am I going from here? You can cut for a second. Bauman: You were talking about rooming. Snyder: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so Gerry McCormick and Fox and I got together, and we decided we'd rent one of the Bauer Day—we would rent a Richland Village house. But they would not rent to single people, so we tried the Bauer Day place. And they said, yeah, we'll rent you a house. So we got together. And I worked for Graphite Group, and Gerry was in chemistry on the separations process. And Fox was designing the PRTR. And we just hit it off well, and we were--not to brag, but we were one of the classy bachelor quarters in town. So now I'm preceding my art career, but before going there I was working in this stuff, having all this fun. We'd have--I was day shift of course—weekends off. John and Gerry were, and we'd have parties with 30 some people or so attending. And lots of people came, because we would have lots of hard liquor. And just had a good time generally. So that lasted for a while, but then when I got married, I came back, joined this programing group that I talked about earlier, got involved in the whole site more or less, and reported to a pretty high up guy, Larry McEwen. And he thought that I would be able to help publicize Hanford to the public. I would put together a small exhibition center, a room that showed the process in its entirety, and add some examples of fuel elements and various solvent extraction columns and things like that. And that was really fun, and I enjoyed it. And reported to Larry, and this was right reporting to Herb Parker who of course became the head of all the laboratories. But, another kid, Art Scott, and I were asked to help him write his annual talk, and so we met with Herb which was quite high level thing for us. And we scraped and bowed and did the appropriate things and came together with a script that he could use for the big annual meeting. And he would go through it, and he would laugh. And he would say, we don't say things like, further on in the evening we will get into. He said, that would kill the talk right there. People are bored and no way would they like to hear, longer on at some time, while they still sat there. But any way, Art and I did okay. And he then joined an outfit called measurements, which was all new in those times. It was a group assigned to measure the progress of the company. How well were they doing? Were they meeting program requirements? And he did that. And I joined--left the Programming Group. And my boss there Kelly Wood said, Wayne, you're going nowhere. He said, you're going to have to do something else if you expect to have a career. And at that time, an offer came up from the technical information crowd. Chris Stevens was manager of a technical library, and they did this work called reviewing reports for declassification. And so it sounded pretty good, and it was more permanent. And so I joined that group, which was much more of a service job again. So I discovered my real career was in service work; it was not in science and engineering and research and that kind of stuff. And so I got over, and I joined Chris Stevenson, and this is a group of about 35 people in the Technical Information Group, most of which processed all of the technical reports that were created at Hanford. We had the technical library, which provided all of the technical information from worldwide scientists and engineers would need. And I reviewed these new technical reports for the appropriate classification: could they go out unclassified, or should they be confidential, or should they be secret? And everything at Hanford was born secret. Unlike the Department of Defense, which wrote stuff and then decided whether it was sensitive, here stuff was sensitive, period, before it was reviewed and allowed to be unclassified. So I would review all of these reports, as boring as they were, and identify things would have to be deleted in order for them to be unclassified. And most of them were high technical reports. They were not about the production programs. They were not about how much plutonium was produced and things like that. It was about the Plutonium Recycle Program; it was about advanced research in materials; it was about lots of interesting things. And so I sort of acquired a knowledge of things that were going on around the whole site, mainly research. Bauman: About what time frame was this that you were doing this? Snyder: Time frame? This would be 19--this was about 1980, I think, when I interviewed with Chris Stevenson and was hired into this Technical Information Group. And that was my career then. I had worked at Hanford for seven years before going to Art Center, and I worked for them for a couple more years, from 1950 and joined the group in 1960, the Programming Group. And so this would have been '63, I think, was when I joined Technical Information Group. Am I off on dates here badly? I hope not. Anyway. It was kind of boring, but I was the classification officer, did all this reviewing, and gained some awareness of how important the information was that supported a technical outfit like Hanford was, partly research and a lot of production stuff. And progressed in that far enough to where when Chris Stevenson resigned, other than just being a reviewer of reports or classification, I became a candidate for running the whole thing. So I became manager of Technical Information section in 1963. And then Battelle Memorial Institute came in and got the contract to run the research parts of Hanford, and the work I was in joined Battelle. And that was, I think, 1965. Things changed a little bit with Battelle. It was a more behavioral kind of a company. GE had been very strict, very much old style corporation, very line management, very much more like normal business. And Battelle came in, and they were used to doing contract research. They would have people come in and say, we have this problem in our material studies for zirconium or something, could you help us solve this problem? So Battelle was used to doing the same kind of research as the Hanford laboratories, but on a much broader scale; more kinds of technology were looked at. And it was a good outfit to work for, and as a matter of fact, I retired from them in 1990. And I had progressed in the technical information work enough that I was really enjoying my job as manager of that outfit. There were about 40 staff members, I'd say, who reported to me, primarily women, but a few professional guys in the technical information work. That I—well, I enjoyed the women too, but the guys, at that time--I shouldn't say this--but were more important than the women, so you tended to associate with guys instead of women in the technical side. And very soon after that, probably ten years, women really came to the front of course in science, and they became bosses around here. But my work had primarily been in a more traditional work through my early career, and through a whole different kind of work as a manager of technical information, being responsible to provide all of the current ongoing world information in science and technology to the Hanford scientists and engineers for their needs in conducting their programs. So that was a very satisfying thing to do, and it acquainted me even further with all of the kinds of things that were going on at Hanford, but without being responsible for making the reactors operate or making the research programs work and things like that. So that a good career. And like I said, I was married in '58, went off to Los Angeles--Mexico and Los Angeles--and then came back and spent the rest of my life, pretty much, in a technical information career. And it's been good. Bauman: I would go back a little bit. You say when you said you first arrived, you lived in the dorm? Snyder: Yes. At that time-- Bauman: Could you talk about that a little bit? Where was the dorm? What was the dorm like? Snyder: Sure. Initially, the City of Richland of course was all government owned. DuPont had had set up, and followed by General Electric company, setting up dorms for single women who were working onsite, and dormitories for single men. And the dorms for men were called M1, M2, M3, M4, whatever. And the women's dorms were called W. What W to do with it? And I was in M9 for a short time. And the company decided set up this dormitory for the single tech grads, and they didn't have an empty men's dorm so they set aside one of the women's dorms, W21. It was built on what would be the parking lot of Albertson's grocery store right now, down on Lee and Jadwin. And that was where I met Fox and McCormick and all these other guys that I still see occasionally today. But it was a whole different style. It was amazing. How could guys be shunted off into a supervised dormitory, practically a continuation of your freshman year in college? We had a house mother even, who made sure we were behaving, not having women into our rooms, and things like that. [LAUGHTER] And today kids would just have a—they would up-rise against this kind of thing. But all of us were pretty pliable. And we were still earning a living. I did get above $52 a week, finally. But still not earning great bucks at that time. So the dormitories, they were $11.50 a month, and the beds were made daily by maids that came in and helped clean up our rooms a little bit. So it was-- Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms? Snyder: I lived in the dorm for two years. And then that's when I joined the group in Bauer Day house, and became friends with—you know. It's amazing how many people who started then are still alive and still at Richland. And even today we'll get together with maybe 15 guys who were part of dorm W21, and three of which, we're really still close friends. And so-- Bauman: I wanted to ask you about, what was it like living in Richland during the 1950s? What was Richland like as a community? Snyder: Okay. It was--the government township made people feel very irresponsible about—they would rent a house, but the government owned it. So you have--you just paid your rent, $30 a month or whatever and got the comfort of having all of your fuel delivered weekly. And I think you did pay for groceries and things, but the town had a little bit of a government town—a company town situation. And people were good—the higher level--it was supposed to be a community that was totally non-status. Workers, and top dog managers, and presidents would all live in mixed up neighborhoods. You might live next door to a plumber, and there might be an electrical engineer in the next one. But that never worked, and the highbrow executives of the site did get all the houses along the river, which was called pill and skill drill hill, which was the doctors, the dentists, and the executives. And the rest of the population got nice houses, and no problem with it. But again, they're all government owned, and everybody rented them. But came 1958, this government town was sold to the occupants. The government got out of being responsible for any landlord responsibilities or any government--any town operation. And it—my dog is barking, you hear [LAUGHTER]--anyway, it changed. People really owned their own homes. And property was opened up where you could buy property and build your own house. So instead of all this very much alike, six or seven different kinds of houses were built, a large number of them, you now owned them, so you took care of them. But new property was available so that you could build your own house. And that all happened in 1958. The town got a mayor. Fox's first predecessor was a lady named—I can't remember. It was more of a—there was a city council. The city council worked with the General Electric Company and the AEC people to start running our own city. And then in '58 when it was all sold, they literally became the honest government for the town. And they had to set up company-owned, company-operated—I mean privately owned, city-owned fire departments, police stations, and all that kind of thing. By that time, private industry had come in and built the large chain grocery stores like Safeway, and Albertson's, and all those. And the health business had been all company owned, but the Kadlec Medical Center was set up, and it was private again. You went to doctors who were your own. The initial facilities were very primitive. They were just like government military operations. The hospital where all my children were born was just an old clapboard building that could have been any army fort in the country. But it turned private, and it started building on an enterprise basis more so. I bought one of the lots a little bit north of town, and by that time, I had three children in the Bauer Day house. But we built a larger home up on--a block off from the river but--up on Enterprise, which still exists. And the home we built, we had an architect, and we contracted it out. So it was very much a private-type operation. It was not a development house or something. And we lived in that house until two years ago, until 2000—was that it? No, 2011. We had built our house, and we had lived in it then until, like I said, 2011. So it just became a regular community, a regular life. The whole country's looking at Hanford. It was very accepted when it was an important part of defense. We were building weapons as fast as we could to keep up with Russia. The whole Cold War lasted that long period of time, so it was very solid employment. But it was not looked at negatively like today. Today, Hanford being the biggest waste dump in the world is not thought of really highly by a lot of environmentalists and other people like that. [LAUGHTER] It's slowly being realized, but up until that time, it was very patriotic. People thought, yay, we've won the war. We'll continue to be safe; we'll have the biggest arsenal in the world, be able to maintain our security and safety. And then when that was no longer that important, and they shut down the Hanford plutonium operation, the taking care of all the waste products that had been created, stored in the big tanks, stored in crypts and things like that, became a negative to the environmentalists. And so then Hanford site is still accepted and known to be important, but didn't enjoy that win-the-war patriotism, everyone thought highly of you, type situation. Bauman: I wonder about, especially during those early years in the 1950s, any community events that stand out, that you remember? Snyder: Oh, yeah. There was no real social facility in the town. There was the VFW, the Veteran Foreign's where they had a bar and a dance place. The city itself provided a lot of recreation in the way of athletic courts, tennis courts, swimming pool, and that. But pretty much, you made up your own entertainment. And things were formed like the Dormitory Club, and they would go on hikes at least two to three times a month during the summer. And the Alpine Club would go on climbs. And the athletic events, the local softball teams and things like that went on. But pretty much you made--you used those facilities, but you were responsible yourself to. If you wanted to have a party, you had it in your home. You didn't have a party in some commercial facility. There were no real bars or things like that. There's one place I remember though. When the government sold off the town, and the facilities were no longer needed, people may remember what was called the Mart. And it was like the dining halls out in the Areas. It was a big facility that serve meals to the people who worked in town or people who were off shift and need to go eat. And so it was a huge cafeteria where food was served in great quantities at low price, but when the place sold off, that became pretty passé. You know, people were no longer interested in living like a company town. You're more interested in having clubs built and things like that. And so early on, this Mart building, which was an eating hall mostly, had in the back end of it a little bar with a guy whose name I forget, played a Lowrey organ. And those were the most popular thing in the world with Carmen Miranda and other such names who played that. So we would go down there and dance, or we would go there and have drinks and stuff. And the VFW was popular. And there were other places that got built ultimately. The—what was the Red Robin for a while was earlier on a V-named guy. Anyway, it was a regular commercial eating place. There were places to dance, and there were—something like that. So the early town was pretty much, do it on your—do-it-yourself with your own friends. You didn't get to do anything. A big thing though was the Richland Players, a community acting group, was initiated. And the Richland Light Opera Company, who put on pretty much Broadway musicals, came about. And they did really good work. And Richland Players—I can't recall the names of the plays—but some of the musicals that went on with Richland Light Opera were like Annie Get Your Gun, and Show Boat, the ongoing things. They still produce good plays and good musicals. So that was kind of a way to entertain yourself, and would we spent a lot of time supporting groups like that. Bauman: I wanted to ask you also about things like Atomic Frontier Days or any things like-- Snyder: Oh, okay. When I first came here the Atomic Frontier Days was an annual celebration of the town, very much like any small Western town. And there was a parade, and there is a Miss Frontiers Day elected. And there was the beard growing thing, who could grow the biggest beard. And a little later on, it turned into the Water Follies, which was the whole Tri-Cities, and that was the beginning of the very big scale hydroplane racing, the Unlimiteds. And they raced on the Columbia right out of Kennewick. And so the Frontier Days folded totally, and Tri-City Days, or whatever it's called now, came into being, which is a much more lavish production, much more important. Bauman: I know President Kennedy visited the Hanford site in 1963. Snyder: Right. Bauman: I wondered if you were onsite at the time, if you have any memories of his visit? Snyder: Yeah, he came out to inaugurate the N Reactor. It was the first reactor that was not like the old original reactors that didn't produce any power or anything. The N Reactor both produced plutonium, but it also took the heat off the reactor operations with a big turbine and made electricity. And Kennedy came out—that was a pretty important thing nationwide, at least in the nuclear industry—and told people how great they had done and how important it was. And I didn't go out to it, but many of my friends did. And Kennedy was--everybody really liked President Kennedy—anyway, Democrats did. And I was a Democrat, so that made it one for one. And it was just a big deal. Earlier than that, other Presidents had done things out here, like—oh, the McNary Dam when it was built. I think it was President Eisenhower, may not--might have been a little later that--came out and dedicated that facility. And then even after that, we had President Nixon come and visit. And he landed in his helicopter in the new Battelle buildings, the Battelle research area, which was quite glamorous and very beautiful compared to the old facilities, and gave us a good spiel. And this was while he was still somewhat in vogue, you know, before the Cooks bit and Watergate and things like that. [LAUGHTER] And we all loved him, and we waved him off. And we were glad that he dipped his wings to show that he approved of the place. But so the site later on--and even early on with like the McNary Dam and things--had some national popularity, or some popular awareness at least. A lot of people really never did know of Hanford, and may still not, but at least it's a well--a better-known facility. And its purpose is, I hope, better understood by the public, creating an atomic bomb. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Are there any--were there any incidents, events, things that happened that--during the years working a Hanford that really sort of stand out in your memory? Snyder: It doesn't pop into mind. That's not a good statement is it? [LAUGHTER] But it was pretty much an even-keel life for me. It just flowed nicely. You worked hard, you earned money. But you were not--you didn't become a national figure, and that was okay. It's just—it gave a whole bunch of us--I think the '50s were considered to be the best generation’s support that ever happened. It was a good time, and excuse me, a good time to live. I'm getting cracked up. Bauman: I wonder what you consider, like, the most challenging aspects of working Hanford, and maybe the most rewarding aspects of working there. Snyder: Of course rewarding was earning a living. A satisfaction in what you did, your coworkers, the local community—that was a big plus. No single event that stands out, like I won a Nobel prize or anything like that. [LAUGHTER] But very good, and so that was a very plus thing that stands out. Negative, other than some of the change of the environment, the Cold War ended, thank goodness, and our--the need for Hanford became less, so there was just some less feeling of being critical to the well-being of United States. We still feel it's very important, but not as critical as it was in early days. Bauman: You talked a little bit earlier about the Cold War and the importance of being part of that, sense of patriotism. Snyder: And earlier than the Cold War even. The Korean War, and there were still some wars going on, but no atomic as it was called in those days. No nuclear weapons were required. Bauman: Right. Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War. Snyder: Yeah. Bauman: After the Cold War ended. And they have no memories of it, and know very little about it, so I guess my question would be, what would you like today's younger generation or future generations to know about working at Hanford, Richland during that period? Snyder: I think to some degree Hanford has a negative connotation. And I guess I would like for it to be known--excuse me--Can we just cut it off for a second? Bauman: That’s fine. Snyder: Whoa! Bauman: It's okay. Snyder: I told Peg I might do this. Bauman: Mm-hmm, it’s all right. Snyder: I guess we can go on. I'll compose myself. Bauman: Sure. Snyder: Oh I was--I would like for it to be known that—I can't say it. Bauman: Okay, it’s all right. We can skip to something else if you want. That's fine. Snyder: I don't know. Excuse me. I have no idea why this is becoming so real. Bauman: It's all right. Snyder: Are you leaving, hon? Oh, aren't you going to go to the store? Peg Snyder: Well, I can't get the car out, so we're just going to go a couple of blocks. Bauman: Oh, my car’s in the way. Peg: That's okay. We're going to go in a couple of hours. Snyder: What's wrong with the car? What's wrong with the car? Peg: They’re parked in front of the garage. Bauman: We're parked on your driveway. Snyder: Oh, okay. Man one: But we can--I can move stuff if you want. Peg: No big deal. Snyder: Maybe—are we about wound up, do you think? Bauman: Yes, I just had one or two items—one or two questions. Snyder: I see. Well, I was trying to say, the acceptance of Hanford--the need for it--I would like to be known. Bauman: One of thing I want to ask you about is, I understand you were very involved with the Richland Library. Snyder: Not the Richland Library, no. The Technical Library at Hanford. Bauman: Okay. That's what you were talking about in terms of the declassification. Snyder: Yes. And the provision of technical information—books, reports, anything that provided that. Bauman: Okay, great. All right. Anything that I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about, that you think be important to talk about? Snyder: No, I think I pretty well covered my relationship at Hanford. It's been a good one. And you've done a good job. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for talking to me today and letting us come to your house-- Snyder: Oh, sure. Bauman: --and interview you. We really appreciate it. Snyder: You're more than welcome. Bauman: Thanks for-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:46:49 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 230 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 703 building 200 East 271-T Area B Plant 100 area 330-233B Area 300 Area 271 Canyon Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ca1950-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1950-1955; ca1960-1990; Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Fox, John McCormick, Gerry McEwen, Larry Parker, Herb Scott, Art Stevens, Chris Miranda, Carmen Kennedy, John F. Eisenhower, Dwight D. Nixon, Richard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wayne Snyder Description An account of the resource An interview with Wayne Snyder conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-9-4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 100 Area 271 Canyon 300 Area 330-233B Area B Plant Building 200 East Building 703 DuPont General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7f6d2722f96af5759ce34d284e17ceb3.jpg 2e6c63401f341726a5d00d80c6b894e0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F35192d6fa7246bcbeafa4d77f812dca4.mp4 5118fbd730bbe880f6366cbc5584f62f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob Smith Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Northwest Public Television | Smith_Bob </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: I'm going to start by just maybe having you state your name first. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: That's Robert Lee Smith. I usually go by Bob. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Okay, and my name is Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Bob Smith on July 16th of 2013, and the interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Bob Smith about his experience working at the Hanford site. So I thought we'd start today by just asking you to talk about how you came to Hanford, how that happened, when that was, and what brought you here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, it had to happen about 1951. My Kansas National Guard unit got called into federal service during the Korean War, and we wound up at Fort Lewis. So one day, a friend and I were hitchhiking into Yakima, and this car, Oldsmobile station wagon--looked like a brand new one--pulled up to give us a ride. So we got to asking him questions about, well, gee, you must have a nice job to afford a car like this. Yeah, I've got a pretty nice job, he says. Well, what do you do? He says, I'm a guard over at the Hanford Atomic Works. I says, well, where's that? He said, oh, it's 80 miles down the road. We weren't bashful about asking questions, so we says, well, how much do you make? He says well I make $100 a week. $100 a week? Wow. I had just left Pittsburg, Kansas at a job at $30 a week as a clerk typist. So I thought to myself, I want to check that place out. So eventually I did. I wound up as a clerk when they were building the K Areas, not making $100 a week, but I was making $60 a week. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And did you have any idea of what Hanford was at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: I had read a short article in the newspaper, I think, over at Fort Lewis, something about they had atomic energy work going on here, and it was secret, and it got my imagination, my curiosity up. I thought, I'm going to have to check that place out. So I eventually did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And what were your first impressions of the place when you first arrived to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: I thought it was a real nice place. I got here on June 8th in 1953. And the weather was nice and clear and really nice. I saw the Rattlesnake Mountain off of the site, back over there, and I thought, man, that's really pretty. We didn't have any mountains like that back in Kansas. So I was living at the dormitory, so I would run out in the morning and catch a bus, take me to the bus lot, and then from the bus lot I'd go out to 100-K Area. So anyhow, I was very impressed with the area around here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And so what was your first job? What sort of job were you doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: It was a clerk typist out of 100-K Area, when they were building the K-East and K-West Reactor. It was back in 1953. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And so which contractor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: General Electric. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: General Electric. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, General Electric Company. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Okay, and you said you lived in a dormitory when you first came? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yes, mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And where were those at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: It was where Albertsons Grocery Store is now on Stevens--Stevens and the Lee Boulevard. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And it was an all-men dormitory? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, it had a W-21, which stood for Women's, but there were two dormitories in there that had men in them, but they started with a W because eventually they thought they would be women's dorms. But they had more men than women, I guess, so I wound up in W-21. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And how large was the dorm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Just like any college dormitory, actually--two story, stairs on the outside you could go up, as well stairs inside--typical college-type dorm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And how long did you live in the dorm then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, I lived in the dorm until I got married in 1954. I got married in May of '54, so. While living there, they eventually transferred me up to M-1 dormitory, which is up close to Jadwin and Symons, something like that. Because—for some reason, maybe they had sold their area to Albertsons. I don't know. But I eventually moved up there. So I was there about a year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Okay. And then after you got married, where did you move at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, we got an apartment over in Kennewick, but we were only there for about week before our names came through. We had put in for a house to rent in Richland, because it was still a government town at that time. And we got a B house at that time at 1413 McPherson. So being over this one bedroom basement apartment in Kennewick only lasted about a week, so we moved into the Richland B house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And what were your impressions of Richland at the time? What sort of community was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: I thought it was real nice. It had the downtown section and also the uptown. The uptown section was fairly new at that time. But I thought it was very good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And you mentioned Richland was a government town. Do you remember any special community events--parades, any of those sorts of things during that period? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Not too many—being a government town, why, you did the job that you had to do. Well, they did have this music group that had opera singers and plays that you could go to and take part in choruses, singing. So I did join the Richland Light Opera Team for maybe one year and did a little singing there. But that was only for a few months, until I met my wife, and then I lost interest in singing. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And at some point, Richland I guess, gains independence, I guess, or whatever you want to say. Do you remember anything about that period and that process at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, that was around 1957 when that happened. And being in a B house, which meant there was a family on each side, the people that were there ahead of us had the opportunity to buy the house, but they didn't want to buy it, so they asked us if we wanted to buy it. Well, didn't have enough money to buy anything, so we said, no. So they went ahead and bought it, and we just stayed there. The rent for the General Electric time was $37.50 a month, and we continued paying that for about a year, and then it went up to about $50 a month. But that was still pretty reasonable at that time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: So you mentioned you started as a clerk typist in the K Area, right? At some point you moved in to Health Physics. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: How did that happen, and when did that happen? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, by the time my year was up as a clerk typist, I had a chance to move into a job at a little bit of pay. The job was called field assistant, but it was half clerical typing job, and the other half of the day would be radiation time-keeper following J. A. Jones personnel around, minor construction, keeping time on them—radiation time in radiation zones to make sure that these construction workers didn't receive more than 300 MR in a seven-day period. Because in those days, although we had dosimeter pencils, they were not the self-reading kind where you could just look up at the light. What they would do is at the end of the day, you would drop your badge and pencils in a rack, in this case, 200 West Area and then go home for the night. Well, they had what they called pencil girls that would come out on swing shift, and they would collect these badge and pencils, and they would read these pencils. They had a manometer upstairs above the guard house, and they would stick these pencil in the manometer. It would read how much radiation it had collected. Then they'd put them back with the badge and put them back in the rack. So the next morning when you came, you'd pick them up again. Well, my time as a radiation time-keeper was up to me to keep track with pencil and paper about how long they could stay in the radiation zones, depending on how high the radiation dose was. As a radiation time-keeper, we'd accompany radiation monitors--they called them Health Physics Technicians--everywhere the construction guys went. And they would tell us the reading, and we would calculate how many minutes they could work in that zone. And then when they would leave that zone and go to another one, then we'd calculate that. So we did that for the full eight hours a day. Well, at least four hours a day. Half the day I might spend as a clerk typist writing up construction schedules for the--we had a General Electric engineer and also a J. A. Jones engineer. So they would write up the schedules, and I would type them up for the first half of the day, and the second half of the day, I would go keep time on the guys in the radiation zones for about half a day. So I did that from 1954 to 1959, and then I had a chance to transfer into radiation monitoring, which I did. And I worked in that job from '59 until I retired in '93. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Oh, okay. And so when you moved to radiation monitoring, what did that mean in terms of your sort of everyday job? What sorts of different things would you be doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, we would go with the operations personnel, like operators or maintenance people, and accompany them on jobs and find out how much radiation was in the area, and then go in there with them and stay with them, in a lot of cases, as long as they were in the zone. And then sometimes we could set the job up if the radiation was not going to increase or decrease, then we would leave the job. But oftentimes we would have to stay with them because they would move from one place to another. So we were kind of following construction people and operations engineers—everybody that had to go in a radiation zone. We'd either go ahead of time and check the readings off and take smears--some floor smears and air samples and that sort of thing--to make sure they were within the limits of a the Hanford project. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: So you worked in various places throughout the site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, I worked at--eventually over the period of time, I was in that job at all nine reactors at the Hanford project. And also I worked three separations buildings, PUREX 200 East Area, D Plant in 200 East Area, and also at the REDOX. When I was a radiation time-keeper, partly I kept time on the construction people because they were building a crane viewing room in the REDOX, so I did work there also as part of my job as a time-keeper. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And I imagine, given the number of years that you worked there, that were a number of contractors that you worked for over the years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, General Electric left about 1965, so about that time I had a chance to transfer over to the 200 Areas at an outfit called Isochem had the contract. And they only did that for about a year or two, when they left and turned their work over to Atlantic Richfield. And Atlantic Richfield did it eventually until Westinghouse eventually took over. In between those periods there, I also worked at Douglas Labs, which is out on North George Washington Way. And I did the same type of work, except I also was taught how to irradiate TLD badges because TLDs took over the place from film badges. So I would issue these badges for all workers for Douglas Labs, which was, at that time, probably less than 100 people. And I worked at that from about '73 until '76, when Exxon bought the building for Douglas Labs, and then I worked for them for about another couple three years. So actually I was gone from the Hanford project for about five years there, roughly--two and a half for Exxon, and two and a half for Douglas Labs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Okay, okay. Now, at some point, the mission of the site changed from production to clean up. Did that impact your job in terms of radiation monitoring in anyway, and if so, how so? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, some things did, all right. About 1987, all the reactors were shut down except N Reactor. And then they decided to shut N Reactor down '87. But they still had a lot of fuel elements left in the basement at N Reactor. Sometimes they would ship those few elements over to K Areas for storage. But they needed to be processed to make plutonium. Even though they were going to quit making plutonium, they should've dissolved these fuel elements and got rid of them. Instead they just let them store in the K areas for several years. And that was too bad, because eventually K Areas had to get those fuel elements out of there and send what's left of them over to T Plant, what they call T Plant now, for storage of some of the stuff that's left. So it made a difference in the kind of radiation monitoring you did. You didn't have to go into operating reactor buildings. Eventually, I transferred into what they call a D&D group, which was Decontamination and Decommissioning, which meant I went around to all of the old shut down reactors with operators. Well, they were called D&D workers at this time. We would go with them and make sure that there was no radiation around, take smears of the floor. About the only thing left in them would be radon, so we'd check for that. Sometimes we'd run onto a rattlesnake in these old shut down buildings. And one that really surprised once--we went to 105 C Reactor, and we saw this rattlesnake curled up underneath an old maintenance room. And the operator said, darn, the last time I killed rattlesnake, the environmentalists really got on to me. I says, okay. Well, it was on Friday afternoon, so I said--we had a radio, of course. So I said, I'll go out in the radio car and radio the office and see what the supervisor wants to do. So I did, but the supervisor had left early to go to town, so the assistant was there. I say, what do you want us to do with this rattlesnake? We hadn't killed him yet. [LAUGHTER] And I took a camera with me from the pickup. And he says, well, use your own judgment. Well, our judgment is we're going to run into that thing again in a month from now, and I didn't want him to be surprised and bite me. So I took a shovel in with me, and I handed it to the operator and says, do you want to kill him, or do you want me to do it? He says, I'll do it. So he took the shovel and whacked the head off of this thing. So after a few minutes there we got ready to leave. He scooped up the head on a shovel and carried the tail with his hand. And he went on outside to C Reactor, and he threw the tail over the roadway out into the desert. But the head, he laid down on the concrete there in front of the entrance to C Reactor. He says, let me dig a hole here to bury this head. We didn't want a coyote or something to eat that head and die of rattlesnake poison. So while he was digging that hole, one of the other D&D operators, who had a safety-toed boot on, took his boot and gradually moved it up towards that head, and this was after that thing had been killed for about ten or 15, 20 minutes. And that snake, much to our surprise, his head came up about six inches off the ground, came down, and his teeth had latched around fangs on that guy's boot and snagged the top of it for about an inch. And man, I'll tell you, the three of us looked at each other and says, did you see what I saw? We had never seen that before or heard of it. So that surprised us to no extent. So anyhow, that was one of the exciting jobs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: That’s quite a story. What a surprise. Yeah, wow. So I was going to ask you--you were involved with a lot of radiation monitoring. So if a worker was exposed too much, their pencil or whatever showed--what happened at that point then for the worker? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, we had a limit of 300 MR per seven-day period, and as a radiation time-keeper, when the worker reached that point, why, we would go in and pull him out of the zone and tell him, that's it for the week--300 per week. Also, we had a limit of 50 MR per day to start with. So whenever they reached 50 for that day, we would pull them out. The next day they'd go in for another 50. But they would do that until they got 300 in a seven-day period. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: In reading the information from an interview you did ten years ago or so, it talked about that you had been involved in creating a tube that was uses to pinpoint the area of contamination. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, we had what we called a P-11 probe, a Geiger counter. And what we did was, in a process of surveying our people, this P-11 probe was about two, two and a half inches in diameter. I think I've got a copy of it. Anyhow, I would lay this piece of paper down on whatever was contaminated. If it was the bottom of a shoe, we would survey that shoe and find the hottest spot on that shoe, and then we would mark it, a pencil mark around the P-11 probe. So it was a round circle for the hottest spot. And then I would—in my days as field artillery in the army, I used to be work on fire direction center. So we would be fire forward and fire backwards. I thought, well, maybe I could use this P-11 probe like that. So I got the hot spot, and then I would move the P-11 probe down, and then I would draw a circle around it--below it. And then I would go back and find the hot spot and move it to the right, and move it until the radiation went away. Then I would draw a circle around that. Then I would take it up above and do the same thing there and off the left-hand side. So when I got through, I had a spot in the center of it about the size of your thumbnail, and that would tell us where the hotspot was on the bottom of the shoe or whatever you were decontaminating. So that saved you some time in decontaminating. Like on the bottom of a shoe you'd use sandpaper or emery cloth, something like that to clean it off, or masking tape or duct tape. So that kind of helped me anyhow—just tools of the trade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Right, and when did you develop that? What time frame would that have been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Probably around 1970. At that time, I was going over to CBC. I used to be an awards chairman for the Health Physics Society years ago, and my job was to contact the instructor for a nuclear technology class for the CBC and find out who we could give a scholarship to--$500 or something like that. So this guy called me up one day. He says, Bob, we need to have somebody in your group to come over and give radiation monitoring classes to our students because they were learning how to be operators in the reactor buildings or radiation technicians. I said, sure, I could do that. He had gotten his experience from the Navy. He was a Health Physics technician, or they called them something else in the Navy. And he says, we need somebody over here to help them out and teach them. Could you do that, or could you find somebody? I says, yeah, I could probably do that. So I contacted my manager, and after six months or a year, they give me permission to go over there and do that about once a month. So I would go teach you one or two hours in the morning and another one or two hours in the afternoon. So that's what I thought about this thing here, which I had done out of work--finding little hotspots and then bringing them down to a small area. So that's about the time that I was doing that, and so I passed it on to the students so they would know, too. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: So it was sort of the teaching the students that led you to sort of thinking about that and developing that process? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, some of those students--in the summertime we would hire maybe five or six of them to come out at N Reactor as interns for the summer, because we were shut down for about a month or so for all the repairs and stuff. So we'd hire some of these students to come out and go around with us and learn jobs. So that at the end of that summer, if the company wanted to hire some of them, they could hire one or two or all six of them. So that kind of worked out good for both of them. And then they shut that teaching job down several years ago because the contractors at Hanford quit hiring people because we were starting to shut down reactors and laying people off. So if there's no need for them, then they quit teaching it. But then here, about two years ago, they started up that program again. I don't have anything to do with it. But they do teach them now three jobs, either a radiation operator type job or health physics technician type job or as an instrument technician job. They can go three different ways, so that's a good program at CBC right now. It's kind of like nuclear technology. It's a two-year program. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And about how long did you teach classes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: About ten years, from about 1970 until about 1980. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Mm-hm. And in reading about this, it sounded like you also were instrumental in developing a scholarship program at CBC? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, I noticed that we always had white persons. There was never any blacks, and not even many Latinos either. So one day I asked Larry, I said, how come we don't ever have any Afro-Americans in here? He says he didn't know. So I went to the guy in charge of Afro-Americans over there hiring people, and he says he didn't know. And I thought, well, probably the reason is they were just like I was when I was getting out of high school. I didn't have any money to go to college. So I says, maybe we should start up--maybe the college could do something. So I thought, well, we ought to have an auction. So we had an auction there at CBC, and we had all the kids in the class bring things to donate and put out to sell. And we advertised it, sent information around to a bunch of companies. And I met about seven or eight companies to see if they wanted to donate equipment for it, which they did. But the day of auction came along, and I don't think we even had six people show up to buy anything. So, I says, well, we'll leave this equipment here, and CBC can have an auction some other time and maybe they'll collect more money, which they did. However, we had a guy that was pretty high up in the company for Westinghouse, and he was attending meetings over there. And one day I went to the building over there, and I saw all these, three or four or five other companies, not Westinghouse, that had plaques up on the wall that they donated $5,000 from one company, $10,000 for another company for scholarships. And so one day, we had a fellow that was pretty high up in Westinghouse stop by our building out there for a safety meeting one day. I says, we're going to have an auction, and it would be nice if Westinghouse could donate some money towards this thing and hire these minorities. So he took that information into the vice president of Westinghouse, and they okayed it. And I says, it'd be nice if we had four $1,000 scholarships to give to these kids. So they came up with that for that year. However, the next year, they came up with $28,000 for scholarships. So that was--the guy who was in charge of all safety for Westinghouse at the time sent me a note and said this was coming off. So that made me feel pretty good that Westinghouse did do that because all these other companies had done something. But they followed through with it, which was great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: So you worked at Hanford from the 1950s into '93. Is that what you said? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: With some years in between there when you weren't. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Right, from about--well, at Hanford from '53 until '93, but I was a radiation monitor from '59 until '93. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Did the technology change quite a bit in terms of radiation monitoring over those years, and if so, how did it change? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, yeah, they got better instrumentation down at--Battelle did some of our reading of our badges and this sort of thing. So their instrumentation got better as the years went along. And the same with our Geiger counters. They went from the old style to ones with P-11 probe. Nowadays, I'm not sure they even have a P-11 probe. It might be two long probes that they could use either one for beta, gamma and alpha. Before, we just had the P-11 probe for Geiger counter, and for an alpha meter, we had the probe for alpha--two separate ones. So yeah, the instrumentation did change. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: I was also going to ask you during years--well, Hanford was obviously—emphasized security, and I was wondering, especially when you started in the 1950s, what that was like in terms of security? Did you have to have special clearance? When you went to the site, did you have to go through special security or anything along those lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, I did. When they originally told me, while I was still the Army, there would be several weeks for them to check on my clearance, I thought, okay, several weeks. Well, as it got closer to discharge time, I thought, man, they haven't contacted me, so I better go down to Fort Lewis and check on civil service jobs. So I did, and I had qualified for two jobs. One was a warehouseman because I had worked six years in a grocery store, and the other job was a billing, clerk typist, in the transportation department. So I stayed there from December of '52 ‘til June of '53. But I got so tired of driving the fog and the rain over there around Fort Lewis and Seattle-Tacoma area that I just got sick of it. I had an old 1940 Ford. The heater didn't work, and the defroster didn't work either. So I'd have to drive about half way out and scrape the ice off the outside and the inside. And one day, I was cleaning out the back of it, and I saw all this mold in the backseat. I said, holy cow, the thing didn't warm up enough to dry that out. So finally I decided, well—I was kind of disgusted with General Electric for not notifying me. So although I didn't want to go back to Kansas because my mother and stepfather didn't get along too good. They fought like cats and dogs, and under no condition, no way did I want to live in the same house with them. So put off of going back there. I could have gone back to Pittsburg, Kansas, where they had a four-year college there. I could have lived at home, but I didn't want to stay there. So finally, I thought, well, I'm going to write General Electric a note. I didn't cuss them out or anything, but I wrote some wording on there that said, I thought you guys were honest in your estimations of how long it was going to take for this, but it's been so long. You said several weeks, and it's been several months. So I put that letter and mailed in my outbox at Fort Lewis, Washington. And when I got home that night, I found a letter in the mailbox from the General Electric Company and it said, from Zane Wood. He says, Bob, you've waited long enough for a job. We're ready for you now, so you can come on over. So I says, okay, I'll give my boss two weeks’ notice and come on over, so I did. But I was--clearances took an awful long time in those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: And when you started working, did you drive your car on site? Were you able to do that, or did you have to take a bus, or how did that work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: No, they had bus service around Richland that you could take buses down the sort of streets, and then you'd catch--we were leaving at the B house, so a bus would come by within about a block, so I'd catch my bus there, take it to the bus lot, and then we would get on the bus that went to K Area. And so I would get in there, pay a nickel for a ride out and a nickel to ride back home, and this was 1953. So I did that until I went into the radiation time-keeper job, and we had buses to 200 West Area then, all the areas, but you still just dropped a nickel in when you went in and a nickel when you came out. So I caught the buses there also. So mainly buses--they didn't get rid of the buses until about a year after I retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: I know President Kennedy visited the site in 1963 for the N Reactor dedication. I wondered if you were here at the time, and were you on the site that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Yeah, I was here at that time. I had two boys and a girl, so--and the wife. We loaded up in my station wagon and drove out to N Reactor and was there for his talk. And that was--I think there was about 40,000 people out there, too, so it took us an hour to get out of there with so many people. But that was an interesting time. I also went to Battelle one time when President Nixon came out here to dedicate something to Battelle. So I was able to see both presidents that way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Do you have--were there ever any events that sort of stand out in your mind, period of time working there, or any incidents of any kind or accidents or any sort of events that stand out in your mind from your years working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, one thing that kind of surprised me—about the time I was to retire in 1993, I used to go over to B Reactor whenever they would have out-of-the-country people for a tour of B Reactor. My manager at that time said that he would like for me to be in on the tours because I used to work there when it was an operating reactor. So in case they ask him, well, what was is equipment used for or that one, I could tell them a little bit about it. So I went over there once with about five or six Russians, and they wanted to look at B, so they were looking around there. So finally, one of them spoke up and said, well, since you're about to retire here in a few months, what's your lifetime radiation exposure? I says it's 66 rem. And he says, aha! Mine's 600. I knew—I figured they took a lot more radiation. I thought to myself, man, you must have been at Chernobyl or something. But they took a lot more than what we were allowed here at Hanford. Our limit—official—was 5 rem per year, to not include more than 3 R gamma. But they had a lot more over in Russia. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: What were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, sometimes as a radiation monitor, you were the only person that knew much about radiation and contamination on a job, so it was up to us. We had a limit of 15-mile per hour speed limit on wind. So it was always up to the monitor to decide whether or not to shut a job down or not. And I thought, man, that's a big responsibility, because some these jobs are pretty important. So I carried around a wind gauge underneath the seat of the pickup. And I thought, well, if necessary, I'll get that wind gauge out. Because it got so I could take a look at sagebrush, a light piece a sagebrush. I would take the wind gauge out and watch when the wind blow to see when that sagebrush would roll. And I thought, well, that thing's going to roll maybe 17 mile an hour, and the bigger piece of sagebrush would take a little more wind. So I had this wind gauge out at one job, and the wind was 16 miles an hour, so I shut the job down. Well, that went over like a lead balloon with the rigging supervisor. We were on a diversion box, BX tank farm. And he says, I'm going to call up your boss, Bob. So he did, and my boss came out. By then, the wind had stopped, but I hadn't said anything about you could go back to work. And he says, Bob, how come you shut the job down? I says, well, it says on RNWP 15 miles an hour. Here's the wind gauge--16. He says, well, it doesn't look like it's blowing now. I says, well, it's not. As far I'm concerned, they can start working again, so they did. But every once in a while, you would be challenged. Once again I was challenged. I was working with the D&D group. We were at 100 K burial ground. Sometimes the waste in the burial ground will either travel down deeper, or sometimes they could go up, or they can go to the left or to the right over a period of time. And we had a car—we had one monitor that would drive this SUV-type instrument around where it has radiation detectors on the front bumper. And he would drive over to the tank farm. Whenever it would have a spot above the limits, like the limits on the tank farm are maybe 100 counts a minute above background. Well, whenever he hit this limit, why, it would alarm. So they notified our group that they needed to go in and lay some more dirt down, so they did. They were doing this job, putting more dirt on top of the other dirt. And this engineer--they were running out of money for these truck drivers to do that. And he says to my boss in radiation monitoring, he says--we have to radiation monitors checking the tires of these trucks that were coming and going. And says, why not check every truck coming in and out, going in and out? Why not every other truck or maybe only two tires instead of all four? And I said, no, we can't do that. Because we had run into exactly that same problem at N Area once. It wasn't me, it was another radiation monitor. He had decided on zone that I'm going to start checking every other truck. Well, one of these trucks came up with hot tires from the N Area place, and he tracked contamination down the highway a ways, and that's not good. So I says, well, I'm not going to do that. So the engineer was so mad, he went up to my supervisor. And I guess my supervisor took word over to the manager of radiation protection for all of the 100 Areas at that time. And somewhere there, my supervisor had told me that, Bob, don't survey every tire, just survey some of them. And I was so mad at that, I said to myself, I can't do that. We go through a certification program that you don't compromise the situation. So I was all set to go back to work, but I was going to check all four tires. And just before I left, my supervisor came back and said, our top manager says, keep doing it the way you have--surveying all four tires, so we did. So once in a while, you'd run out of money on a job, why, upper management wants to change things, and you can't do that if you're—why, I had resisted that. I figured I might get laid off or fired or something, but it didn't come to that point, thank goodness. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: So then, what were some more rewarding aspects of your job and working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, one rewarding thing was the scholarships that the Westinghouse came up with. And the other rewarding job was just you knew in your own mind whenever you were doing something right, and there was always a temptation to take shortcuts, but a good monitor never did. Because we had friends did try that, and they got into trouble so. One time I got to note from two former operators I used to work with, and he said--I had been long retired since then, and they were working as ministers, and they sent me a note that said they had appreciated my job as radiation monitoring, that I was different than some of the others. Some of them seemed to not try to get along with other people, operators, and tried to be too rigid. And they thought that I had tried to do the right thing. So that made me feel pretty good, that even though you sometimes wonder, I thought that I did a good enough job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: So overall, how would you describe or assess Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: I think it's a real good place. There are times when some people think that Hanford is—because it's got the most contamination the country, probably because we also made most of the weapons for Hanford, probably 65% or so of all the source of the bomb’s material. And I thought that people were trying to do badmouth the plant here too much. They also tried to badmouth Hanford DOE—or AEC, they called it in those days. But I didn't see it that way, because they were always trying to follow rules and regulations, and I thought they did a good job, and I thought Hanford overall did a good job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: My students now, some of them anyway, were born after the Cold War ended. So they have no memory of the Cold War. They don't know much about it. I guess especially for people who are that young that really have no memory, what sorts of things would you like them to know about Hanford or working there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, I think they need to know that, like I do, that I thought that Hanford did a good job of controlling radiation and the spread of it, because that was my job was to be one of the monitors out there watching these things and following the rules and regulations. So since I had a job in controlling it, I knew what was supposed to happen and what did happen. So I got to feel like most all the percentage of the time, Hanford did a pretty good job of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or any specific memories, things that you'd like to talk about that you haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, yeah there's one of them that kind of bothered me a little bit. Back in 1966, we had a strike here at Hanford. And being in the radiation monitoring group—that was a union job. So we went on strike for about six weeks. During that time, I worked as a kind of a electrician helper down in California. California could not get enough electricians to work in their jobs. All their local people were busy, so they called around the country to get other electricians. Well, they wanted 20 from Hanford, but they could only get ten. So they says, okay, we'll take five instrument technicians and five radiation monitors, since we all belong to the same union. However, those radiation monitors have to have worked around electricians for at least a year, so they could help out as a helper. So my union steer called up one day and said, Bob, do you want to come by and drop your name in the hat and see if it gets drawn out for five guys to go down to Californian? I says, sure, so I did. And luckily enough I did, so I was down there for, well, it was a six-week strike. The first week we just stayed home. The next five weeks I worked down there. Well, when I got back—we would get these bottles, urine bottles, because they wanted to bring everybody up to date. Well, I'd been gone for six weeks, so I put my urine bottle out in front for the truck driver to pick up. Well, he picked it up, but a couple, three days later he came back again with some more of them. So I asked, well, how come I got some more urine bottles here? He says, well--he shouldn't have told me this because he's just a truck driver—but he says, well, I've had to redeliver several extra bottles around to different people. Because there was one guy over to 234-5 Building, where they were making plutonium buttons, that had gotten into an incident and gotten real contaminated. And they think that the bottles were washed—for me to do my sample in—well, mine were washed in the same batch that his were, and they cross-contaminated to my bottles. But that's just a rumor, they don't know for sure. Well, I did get notified by my manager at that time that I was giving an extra 5 rem of radiation because of those urine bottles. And I called him up and I says—Bill McMurray was my manager. I says, Bill, I wasn't even here at that time. How can I get that? He says, well, Bob, Battelle had done a lot of updating of their equipment, so maybe they got more sensitive equipment now than they did six weeks ago. I said, okay, Bill, whatever. But anyhow, they put that on my record, and it's been there ever since. They wouldn't take it off. So that kind of miffed me a little bit. That's one of the things you learn to put up with. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: All right. Anything else that you'd like to share, any other stories or memories? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, let's see. Not offhand. Things went pretty smooth, as far as I was concerned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and your experiences. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Smith: Well, you're welcome, my pleasure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010"> Bauman: Thanks. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:52:37 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 224 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview K Area 100-K Area 200 West Area PUREX 200 East Area D Plant 200 Area N Area 100 Area K-West Reactor N Reactor 105 C Reactor C Reactor B Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1953-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1953-1993 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Smith Description An account of the resource An interview with Bob Smith conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/16/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-24: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Nuclear instruments & methods 100 Area 100-K Area 105 C Reactor 200 Area 200 West Area B Reactor C Reactor D Plant Hanford (Wash.) K Area K-West Reactor Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Area N Reactor PUREX 200 East Area Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2046a01b468d5806f2eeb9ac74c631f3.jpg 570a52b3830287cda5b3b79dc4b071fd https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6044cabd932f17cf7e979c559097da63.mp4 707021a797b556cd2c395a8fc8f9fd0b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arata, Laura Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emil, Leitz Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Leitz_Emil Man one: Whenever you're ready. Laura Arata: We’re ready to go? Man one: Yeah, yup. Arata: Okay. So if we just start off, if I could have you say your name, and then spell your last name for us. Emil Leitz: Emil E. Leitz, the last name spelled, L-E-I-T-Z. Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. The date is November 7th, 2013, already, somehow. So I wonder if we could start just by having you tell us a little bit about how you come to Hanford, when you arrived here, so what your initial experience was like? Leitz: Okay, I came to Hanford after I served my tour of duty during the Korean War. And I had worked for GE prior to going in the service, and they asked me where I would like to go back to work for them. And so I told them I would like to go the Northwest, and they said, well, Hanford is a place where we have some jobs. We'd be glad to place you there. So I came to Hanford. My wife and I were married at the time. We had one child. Hanford, to me, going first on the job, it was kind of old time I'd say. The ride to the area was by bus, but the buses were not air conditioned. They were, in the winter, very cold because the heaters were not very adequate. The assignment to the C Reactor was my choice after I had been here for a while. There were some other engineers who came in when I did. We each went our own ways. The trip, I mentioned, was by bus, but as also, we had to take our own lunches. We didn't have eating—preparation for food out in the areas. I was in the research and development organization as an engineer trying to, at that time, improve both safety and production. Something that was really, really emphasized, the importance for safety here at Hanford. And at that time, they were also wanting to increase production because we were in the big race with Russia to whoever could make the most bombs supposedly was going to be the winner of this Cold War. Well, after I worked for—well, the first assignment I had really at C Reactor was they were trying out a new fuel element, and that would cool the fuel both internal and external to the fuel. And it took a special spacer on the end to mix them. Now a spacer is something that positions the fuel in the reactor. And it would take a special one of these spacers to mix the fuel between the inner and outer cooling channels on the fuel. And it so happened that at C Reactor, once they got their reactor up and charged it, they couldn't get the reactor to run. We had every process tube, 2,003 of them--were monitored by a flow monitor. And that flow monitor, if the pressure exceeded certain limits, it would automatically shut the reactor down. And it just kept shutting the reactor down. And the plant manager, he wanted to abort the whole program. He says, it's common to all of the tubes, we just can't operate the reactors, so the fuel is a failure. And they asked me my opinion, and I said, it could very well be that we only have a very few tubes mischarged without that mixer spacer. Because I had them run some tests that showed that if that mixer spacer's in there, the pressure would be oscillating between the tube. And we couldn't identify at that time which particular tube was causing the problem. So that's what I told my management, and then two days later, the plant manager came into me, he was just livid. He said, you told the people that I was making a mistake in charging the reactor, that I was not controlling it adequately. And he said, I'm going to get your ass. That's just what he said. And I'm going to check every process tube in that reactor, and prove that you’re wrong. Well, they checked them, and they had seven process tubes mischarged. They corrected the charge, the reactor went up—operated perfectly. Never had another scram, so I didn't hear anything more from that manager. So it was kind of interesting point of view about my first assignment, and I got that kind of pressure from some of the managers. Arata: How long did that take, to test that many process tubes? Leitz: Oh, to load the reactor probably took six months or so. Because they would do, as the field became ripe, the old field became ripe--or ready for discharge--they would discharge, it was a couple hundred tubes, and then put new ones in. So that took probably two, three charges ‘til they—when they got--And I don't know when the problem first occurred to having these inadvertent scrams, but when I got there, they were ready to abort the load. And would have really reduced—they had to increase the flow into the reactor, and they could not really get full utilization. Those reactors originally were built for 200 megawatts—I think that's what it was--and they were all operating up around 2,000 then after they got these new fuel elements in and the new flow up. So ten times the power that they originally designed for. So there were really some big improvements. Along with this going on, it was in 1957 in Richland, they were going to sell the homes. They made a big—they were going to get out of the business of having houses, and a lot of the people were pretty leery. Hey, they're going to be shutting this down because most of them knew, oh yeah, we've got plenty of weapons. We really don't need all this plutonium for weapons. And so some people were very hesitant. They offered the homes at 75% of the appraised value of the house if you didn't want the buy-back clause. And if you paid full price, the government would promise to buy it back if something would happen that there was a real economic downturn in Richland. And I found this one guy who says, he was in no way ever going to invest in his buying a house in Richland. And I said, okay. A ranch house is appraised at $10,000, if you buy one, I'll pay you $8,500 for it. So it's appraised at $10,000, and I said, I'd pay you at $8,500. And you buy them in the no buy-back clause, and so that's how I bought my first house. I had been grinning. I couldn't get into one of the government houses, and they were about half the rent I had to pay in a commercial housing organization, which that time was warehousing. So that's kind of an interesting thing as far as living here in Richland goes. People are always a little bit leery about how long could they really want to continue to run those reactors. Arata: All right. Leitz: So the success there at C Reactor--and I was then reassigned to process standards and other jobs. And one night I wanted to start up when they had the approval to build the N Reactor, it was about 1962. I had been here, oh, seven years. They selected me to be what they called the startup engineer for the N Reactor. They had three tests. They had the N1s, which was for physics testing. You had the N2 and N3. The N2 just brought the reactor up in enough power that it could supply its own power for its turbines, and they could back off the boiler. They have a big boiler plant that would generate the steam that normally could drive the turbines. And then they would bootstrap it up. You'd get enough steam, and you'd start these big turbines up, and then you go on up in power. N Reactor was designed for 4,000 megawatts, so I had the job of designing—Now it was unique to any other reactor in the world, and a lot of people say, that reactor just isn't going to run. It's too complicated. It had only 1,000 process tubes, but it also was on recirculation, and no contamination left that plant. It was all--the water just recirculated, and then we didn't release the coolant to the river like all the other reactors that the water would go through the reactor and into the river and still have some radioactivity still left in it, so the N Reactor was a solution for that particular problem. So as they're prior getting ready for writing all those tests and starting of the reactor as assigned training mission aboard the Nuclear Ship Savannah. The Nuclear Ship Savannah was built as part of the Atoms for Peace under Eisenhower. And then that was kind of jointly N Reactor was kind of the same sort of thing, where we would have an Atoms for Peace. We had, instead of just producing plutonium, we also could eventually, if it was approved, add the power generation station. So the original testing of N Reactor went very well, on schedule, and they gave me this little award here, which is the general manager’s award. They didn't give many of these out. And actually, along with that I got a check that was about the size of another month’s pay, so when I was young and needed the money, that was very welcome. Arata: We'll get a picture of that at the end for sure. Leitz: So with that success then, we went ahead and I, during the lifetime of the N Reactor, I worked there a long time. The dual purpose construction was approved in May of 1965, and as a part of that dedication, President Kennedy came out and made a big dedication. And let me see, I think—yeah, 37,000 people came to hear the President speak here the first time Hanford was open up to the public. They had parked thousands of cars out there out in the middle of the desert. Kennedy came in a helicopter. Even though we had watered the ground down, it was just a cloud of dust because it was a construction site, and man, boy, you couldn't even see the helicopter when it was landing. And I had the big job of helping park cars and stuff like that at that time. That’s what it took an engineer to do. [LAUGHTER] It was kind of a fun day for everybody, I think. Arata: Did you get to actually see President Kennedy going over his speech then? Leitz: Yeah, oh, yeah. We got to really see him. Nobody got to shake hands with him, except a very few. I mean, they still have the podium somewhere that he talked from. That's still on display in the museum somewhere. So the first real problem that occurred at N Reactor that they couldn't solve. For some reason, we were having a lot of fuel failures. And some of it was due to equipment problems. Some of it was due to the way they were loading the tubes and that sort of thing. And they appointed me to hit up a task force to try and reduce the fuel failure rate. The fuel failure rate was something like one a month! And when the task force got done and made all these recommendations and they implemented them, we got it down to something like one a month. Now in doing that job, I decided I'm going to do it as a thesis for my master's degree in business. And so it was an operational analysis sort of thing. It was very successful, and I got my thesis paper written and that sort of thing, and that's in the libraries here somewhere. So that was very successful at Battelle. Then I got to be manager of the N Reactor Operations, and I always had to test everybody before they--I was part of a team that tested everybody before they would be certified. N Reactor was the first reactor at Hanford, at least, that certified ladies to be reactor operators. We had two or three ladies while I was manager of operations at the plant that became certified, which I was pretty proud that we didn't have this bias, women against men and that sort of thing. But after I got done, when I was manager I followed every startup personally to make sure they didn't mess up, that they were doing it right. And then I went into managing the safety for all the reactors that were left and fuels and so on and so forth. And the people in the plant operations were always trying to get me to do faster reactor startups. Because if you get the plant started up faster, you get to generate your electricity faster, and they say you could gain as much as a third of a day production by starting up the reactor fast. Well, when they asked me go back in and again--well the fuel failure rate went way up. Going up to better than one a month. And asked me to go again and examine what's going wrong with--how come the fuels are failing? And I said, because you're not really sticking with the original recommendation of controlling slowly and raising reactor power level. And no, no, no, we don't believe that. And so I said, okay, let's arbitrate it with Battelle. Battelle will analyze it. So they came in with their people who really understand stress and strains and all that kind of stuff. And they analyzed it and said that they were reactor startup rates that they were going at put ten times the stress on as a reaction scram would. So once they've, again, got control of their power rates going up again, the fuel failures went way back down again. So that was another one of the ways that I put a success on my career. In fact, we were there for a while. We were so erratic in the way the reactor would shut down and start up--is that the dams—if we would trip off, they would have to pick up the electrical load. And that one of the dams when I went to visit with the Corps of Engineers, back when I was taking some of my reserve training through the Corps of Engineers, I saw a sign, Old Faithful where the N Reactor power was showing. It was kind of interesting. It's interesting that when the first electrical energy was produced, three of the reactors had already been shut down. Now we always felt that N Reactor that N Reactor could just about replace the production of those three reactors. And so we weren't too worried about us getting shut down. But as we operated on through the years, we had all the reactors shut down by 1969, actually--yeah, by 1971, all reactors, including N Reactor, was shut down. And we started the big campaign to get to the Washington Public Power Supply system and/or now the Northwest Electrical Energy to give us better payment for our steams, and with the better rate on steam, we got people to then restart N Reactor under a better contract. So in 1971, after being shut down as a part of all the reactors, we were restarted and allowed to operate. We operated through—okay, and in 1971, when all the plants were down, we had another president visit. The only second president that I know that came to Richland, and that Nixon that came. And he'd give us the old pep talk about how he wasn't going to leave us all in the lurch here in Hanford. That we're going to have people like Pacific Northwest labs and so on and bringing the business, and there'd be plenty for us to do. Well, we did get N Reactor restarted and we operated then through—well, Mt. St. Helens erupted in '80 and in 1980, we had to do some upgrades to make sure that that sort of thing would not interfere with our operation. We got up to where we generated 65 billion kilowatt hours of electrical power, and then in 1987, after that achievement, we were shut down to make some safety improvements to improve our operation, make it more safe. And we never did restart from that. We were kept out. So at that time I was reassigned to the decommissioning work, cleaning up Hanford and being mainly involved in safety with the reactors. I became more involved then with making sure that the effort to decontaminate everything, and it was done within environmental requirements and within safety requirements. You had these big tanks of waste, and there's a potential that just by sticking a probe into a tank of waste, you can moderate the waste such that it could possibly even go critical like a reactor. So we had to examine everything they wanted to do--if they wanted to put a new pump in a tank or if they wanted to move the liquid around, if they wanted to stir the liquid, or if they wanted to use certain chemicals. And what would be your environmental impact? Where do you look for waste from the tanks? A lot of waste is just buried out there. Just if you wanted to get rid of radioactive waste, you go out and dig a hole and you put some waste--and you put it in there. And so recovering all of that and recovering that safely for personnel and for the environment is the job that I ended up doing for the rest of my career. So basically I had what I considered a pretty good career at Hanford. I really thought there were some good challenges, and I thought I made some pretty good contributions to operations at Hanford Project. Arata: Is it okay if I ask a few more follow up questions? Leitz: Pardon? Arata: Can I ask you a few more follow up questions? Leitz: Oh, you bet ya. Arata: That was some good coverage of your time— Woman one: There’s also some water there if you need it. Leitz: No, I don’t need it. [LAUGHTER] Arata: --And your working period. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit more about on board the Savannah, and how that experience came about? I mean, what your experience on the ship was like and what its mission was? Leitz: Okay. I could talk all day on that, really. But the first thing, we got on in Portland, Oregon. And we went out to the—the first thing I knew it is there a man came aboard the ship, the side, and he took over the control of the ship. He was a harbor pilot. And I didn't realize that. Why is that? And he said, well, because that particular bay going out into the ocean is noted as the graveyard for many ships because that's one of the worst entries into the ocean there as far as being rough and tricky, and it moved around. So you have to have a particular man who knows what's going on in that bay to help to get the ship out. So that was kind of interesting to find out that there are those kind of risks with running a ship. Arata: And how would this come about? How had you gotten the invitation to be on the Savannah? Leitz: Well, based on my experience. They stuck me to be a startup engineer, and they thought and felt I needed special training in high pressure, high temperature reactors. And there was an opportunity to get it, on a ship that used the same kind of a reactor that we had on the N Reactor except it was much, much smaller. It was toy one compared with the N Reactor. Let's see, is there really anything more about that? Oh, what they did is they selected the people on the basis of having one with the reactor at all times during the startup testing. So the four shift managers were selected. My boss's bosses were selected, and I was selected to get that particular training because they felt I would be writing the tests. I need to know about all of it. And they needed to have that experience on every shift. The top man in every shift was also on that ship. So it was kind of interesting, just as a sideline, five of them are Navy men, and I was an Army man, and I was kind of the butt of their jokes. You're going to get seasick, and we're going to all laugh at you. And we get into--after we went through the Panama Canal--and we all took some time off in the Panama Canal in terms of working extra before and after—but after we got to the Panama, we went into the Caribbean, and we did get into quite a storm. That ship was actually taking water over the bow. It would go down and go up and go down and go up. And I was out there watching that bow and then I went in to go and eat that night. And I couldn't find any of those other guys. Couldn't find a one of them anywhere. That was kind of a funny part of it is I was probably the only one, I don't think, that didn't get seasick. But it was a fun trip, and we flew back home from Galveston, then. Arata: What route did the ship take while you were on it? Leitz: Well, it went down the coast of South America in through the Panama Canal into the Caribbean and into Galveston, Texas, yeah. Arata: How long were you aboard? Leitz: 30 days. It was a nice cruise. Really it's one of the best vacations I ever had. [LAUGHTER] Except they had us do a study, but I didn't mind the study at all. Arata: I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit--you did a lot of work on safety and security. Could you talk a little bit about if you had to where any special protective clothing in what you did or maybe what sorts of standards you set for other people to follow? Leitz: At one time I was a manager, in fact, of first-hand safety, but only safety in the context of security and that sort of thing. At one time, they had a big upgrade at Hanford for security, and I was in charge the upgrading. But as far as personally, I went into the reactor sites many times and had do the special clothing. If there's any chance of air contamination, you had to have respirators on. And to get out of a radiation area, you have to go to two step-off pads. The first one you just get your clothes off on it. And the second one then, they check you in, and you can come on out. But you had radiation monitors check you any time you come out of a radiation suit and instruments, you put your hands and feet on them and a special clothing. Arata: Were there ever any incidents that you recall? Anything either humorous or a little bit scary or anything like that? Leitz: Well, some that aren't too finicky. One of the K Reactors, when they started it, they had a new physicist, and he held a high period. I don't know if you realize, a 30-second period when you're at watts, you aren't really increasing power real fast, but if you keep that 30-second period when you’re up in megawatts, then it's very, very rapid, increasing power. And then it was the startup of one of the Ks, this new physicist had him hold that 30-second period until the reactors scrammed out from these [INAUDIBLE] trips. Now one thing I could mention is that the change in technology has really changed. Back at C Reactor, we didn't know which tube was causing the scram. With the N Reactor, we knew everything going on, every tube. And we used to have to take our data downtown, in an automobile, we'd punch it out on key cards, and we'd take it down and punch those into a computer. And we'd get the limits back, we'd go back to the reactor and say, okay, you can raise power. And then we would go in and get some more limits and back and forth between town and back. And that took a long time ready to start up because that N Reactor, you had instantaneous information. You knew right along just exactly how every tube related to its limit, pressure and temperature. So we went from analog kinds of systems to digital kinds of systems, just the same thing you see in your TVs or your telephones, the same kind of thing happened at the reactors as far as computerization and technology. So that was really an enhancement. Arata: Were there any aspects of your work that you found sort of the most challenging or the most rewarding? You had several different jobs. Leitz: [LAUGHTER] Well, I think the most rewarding was where I faced up a couple managers [LAUGHTER] and won the battle. Arata: During C Reactor? Leitz: But there's some worry to our time in that too, you know, what if I'm wrong? But it turned out all right. And I think that's part of the reason that I was really considered the one man who knew the most about the reactor. I didn't know everything, but I probably knew more than most people about there. Because I started it up, I lived with it to its life, and I got the picture kind of as a reward for when I retired. Arata: Is anything that was the most challenging, maybe to work through in your time at Hanford? Leitz: I think when I think of the operation N Reactor, I think it was the most challenging job I had. Because that one required, like I said, I went with all the startups. And that's when I was a process engineer with the reactor. When they had problems, they'd call us at night and that sort of thing. But with N Reactor, it was kind of more volunteer, but to know—and some of the shift managers were pretty hesitant on their own to make decisions. And I think that was probably the most challenging job was the operation of one of those big reactors—or that single big reactor and knowing when or when not to say, hey, you've got to shut down, or you don't have to shut down. And the controls even at N Reactor on the environmental controls, you can let down water into a crib—into a spill cooler if you wanted to, and even that was very, very--it had to be done without radiation released into the environment. And there's a real, real difference in attitudes over the years of environmental control and making sure you did not release isotopes into the environment. Really had differences in attitudes. Arata: Yeah, I understand that the Chernobyl incident had a big impact on the decision to finally close N Reactor, to not restart N Reactor. Do you have any thoughts? Leitz: Well, N Reactor is a graphite moderator reactor. And Chernobyl when they raised power level fast, their graphite coefficient was different than N Reactor. N Reactor, if you raised the power fast, it would shut it down, it would tend to shut it down. So as you were starting up fast, in R Reactor, you had to pull the rods faster and faster if you heat it up faster in order to keep the activity going up. In Chernobyl, the same thing happened, but their rods weren't strong enough to stop it. And so it kept going up in power until it melted the core. Now at N Reactor, we ran a lot of experiments to try and prove that even if that did happen, we don't think our graphite would have burnt. But to tell somebody you've got a graphite stack over here that burnt, and then we've got a graphite stack over here that's a little different composition and made up a little different way, it won't burn—just one cell. We still believe that we never could've burnt the N Reactor stack, but basically, that's what kept it down. It's shut it down for keeps—it’s the fact that why won't our stack burn? We just couldn't prove our stack wouldn't burn. We put torches on it, heat it up to a tremendous temperature, it wouldn't burn, but is that enough proof that it won't burn? You know, just wouldn't quite buy. So you know about a little bit about Chernobyl, huh? [LAUGHTER] Arata: A tiny bit. What was Hanford like overall as a place to work? Leitz: Well, the real inconvenience is location. Riding the bus back and forth initially, and later, we drove our own car. I actually wore out a little Metropolitan driving back and forth. I kind of enjoyed that little car, but we got to use our own cars. We carpooled and these sorts of things. One thing you'd see in the desert, and I don't know if many, many people are aware of it, but sometimes you see a lot of rabbits killed on the highway. And pretty soon you'd see no more rabbits on the highway, but you start seeing wolves and coyotes killed on the highway. And that's the cycle of what would happen is when there are lots of rabbits, there's a lot for the coyote to eat. And you could just see that cycle at Hanford, over a number of years, the population of each of those would vary. And if the rabbit population goes out, then the other population goes out. When it goes down, it goes down. So it was kind of interesting to see that. Arata: Yeah. I wonder if we could back up just briefly to when you first arrived, if you had any impressions of what Richland was like as a community when you first arrived here? Leitz: Well, the main reaction we had was, man, it’s costing us a lot more to live than those people that have been here for a while because they had a lot of stuff provided to them, coal or whatever. But you know, the rents were half what we had to pay and that sort of thing, but that didn't last forever. And buying the houses was it really turned out to be a very promising thing. We had weather storms, pretty bad. We had termination winds. We had a pastor, one of our pastors at church--the wife was just by herself when the storm had come in the sand would come through her doors. She wanted her husband to stop that from happening. [LAUGHTER] We had a lot of activities for couples and younger people and so on that we don't have now. Sororities, the Army Reserve meetings, and all these sort of things, you know. Nowadays, people don't want the same kind of entertainment as they had back in those days with Richland. So it’s a different style, more thrifty, maybe that's the whole United States. Arata: Did you have sorts of dances or community events, things like that? Leitz: Yeah, had quite a few community events and dances and things like that. Arata: I know at one point you mentioned White Bluffs. Did you go out to the town site at any point during your first few years here? Leitz: Well, we had to drive past it almost every day. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Were there still buildings standing by that point? Or-- Leitz: The foundations in some of the walls and stuff were there, but none of the buildings were really intact. One of the old gas stations--but some of the people, and I didn't get it going, but some of the people did some exploration, which was not allowed. But they did on the old sites. Arata: I just have a couple other things that I wanted to ask you about from reading through your notes. A lot of what I've read about N Reactor talks about zirconium, and I understand this is sort of an innovation at the time. Could you talk a little bit about what it was, and why it was so new? Leitz: Well, zirconium, they needed a process tube. In the old reactors, there was just aluminum, because there was only cold water going through. They’d maybe get, oh, maybe it would get almost to boiling on the outside of some of the aluminum tubes. In the N Reactor you need a process tube that withstood the high temperature, high pressure. And so they developed this new metal, zirconium, that would withstand the temperatures and pressure and so on involved within the reactor, and the fuel was also clad in that. So if we ran on aluminum tube or aluminum fuel outline at the temperature we had to run at, it would have, what do you call it? A fuel failure. And fuel failures, well, I didn't talk too much about them, but there you're opening up the cladding to the uranium and then the uranium fission product took it in. And you’re likely for that to stay in the primary loop and cause high radiation to our workers. In the other old reactors, it would just go on through the reactor. And hopefully most of it would get picked up and they'd have a cooling pond for the water goes too and then the water goes the river. But small amounts of that could get to the river, and I think that's some of things they found with the aluminum tubes. But our zirconium tubes, they were much more resistant to temperature and pressure and so on. Arata: Is there anything that you'd sort of like to pass on, wisdom to future generations? Of course, most of my students didn't live through the Cold War. They were born afterwards and don't really have an understanding of that time. Is there anything that you'd like future generations to know about what that experience was like of living through and working through the Cold War? Leitz: Well, there's a lot of fear of radiation that's not merited, and it's something you have to learn to live with. Just like in our agricultural world, there are a lot of chemicals and stuff that we're using now we didn't use to use. But we have to learn to use them safely. I think radiation, contamination with radiation, there's a big difference between contamination and irradiation. If you go in for an X-ray, you get irradiated, but you don't get contaminated. If you get contaminated, you've actually got the radioactive material on you, and then you, yourself, become a carrier of that. Contamination is a thing that is more to be feared than just the radiation itself, but you have to control the radiation. Just understanding how to best preserve it. Now we haven't learned all our lessons yet on how to control all the fuel and the reactors, for instance. We haven't got a disposal method that--we're still arguing about how we're going to take care of those spent fuel elements and that sort of thing in our commercial reactors. And we have to learn to do that, but I think now—I just read an article the other day in the paper about the dangers we have from just fossil fuels or even the wind machines and so forth. They are not free of environmental problems. And so you've got to learn to live with radiation and, hopefully, that can be reactors, new generation reactors can be a source of power that will eliminate all these problems. Even the possibility of burning the fuel up to where it’s used up rather than create contamination. There are some real lessons to be learned yet. Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet that you'd like to tell me about? Leitz: Well, I told you about Nixon and the time when all the reactors were shut down. 65 billion kilowatt hours were generated by N Reactor before it was finally shut down. That's a lot of electrical power. At one time we were really the leading reactor insofar as the power generated, but that didn't last long as the new, larger reactors came online. But for a while, we were running the race. We overtook some of the smaller ones. Arata: I understand you were at the closure last year. Leitz: Yeah, last year I went out to closure. [LAUGHTER] That's almost funny because I found out they're going to have a shutdown, so I was trying to go. And this lady called to explain to my wife that--I wasn't home--that I wasn't invited. And she says, well, he thinks he's Mr. N Reactor. He thinks you ought to invite him, and after she talked to him, they invited me to go. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that’s kind of-- Arata: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your stories with us. We really appreciate it. We'll get some images of your award and you picture now. Leitz: Yeah. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:39:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 197 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview C Reactor N Reactor Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca.1955-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Nixon, Richard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emil Leitz Description An account of the resource An interview with Emil Leitz conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear waste disposal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] C Reactor General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Richland (Wash.) Washington Public Power Supply System White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F55d8100b121011a306abbed17c8373a2.jpg 30eb0fa50e37d42214bd6be0627eea3b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Faa816ebb6d6d9173ab8e53c5c07cfa5e.mp4 ffa1311a8d2b5662cd07183a4952b54f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lippold, Esther Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Lippold_Mary_Esther Robert Bauman: Okay, here we go. Okay. We'll go ahead and get started. Mary Esther Lippold: Okay. Bauman: So we'll start maybe by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Lippold: Okay. Mary Esther Lippold, L-I-P-P-O-L-D. Bauman: All right. Thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman. And today's date is December 9th of 2013. Lippold: Right. Bauman: And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if you could start by telling us a little bit about your family. I understand you were born in Richland? Lippold: Well, actually I was born in Pasco. Bauman: Oh, okay. Lippold: And my parents at the time lived in White Swan on the Yakima Indian Reservation. My dad was the administrator and my mother was the faculty. So they got married and lived in the same house. [LAUGHTER] And they had to come to Pasco to have me. That's where their family was. My grandfather was born in Pasco. My father was born in Pasco. And I was born in Pasco. And my brother was born in Pasco. Bauman: That was where the closest hospital was? Lippold: Yeah. Well, there was a hospital in Yakima, but they wanted to be here. I was the first grandchild, so it was a big deal. [LAUGHTER] My mother said that when she got ready to go over the green bridge to have me, she decided she didn't want a baby. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So then did you live in White Swan for a little while then? Lippold: For two years, yes. Then we moved Selah, where my dad was hired to be principal of a new grade school there. Then he joined the Navy. And we moved to New York from Kennewick. Mother and my brother and I came down to stay with my grandparents in Kennewick at that time, which was 1942. Then we moved to New York for six months till my dad was sent overseas. I don't know if it's considered overseas, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, where he was wounded in action. My mother got a telegram saying her husband had been wounded in action. But he called shortly before this and said you'll be getting notice that I was wounded. And he said I was playing tennis. [LAUGHTER] So his wounded in action wasn't exactly what you would picture that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Okay. And so what point did you move back to Eastern Washington? Lippold: We came back in 1946. After the war ended, my dad was stationed in Seattle for a while. And then he was hired to be the principal of Carmichael Junior High School at the time. And he worked at Columbia High School for a couple of years until Carmichael was ready to move into. And I had the stigma of being the principal’s daughter. Bauman: And what was your father's name? Lippold: Christian Anderson. Bauman: Christian Anderson. Lippold: Chris Anderson was what he was called. Bauman: And so how old were you then when you moved here? Lippold: Ten. Bauman: Okay. And so what was Richland like in 1946 when you returned to the area? Lippold: It was dusty and windy. [LAUGHTER] That's mainly what I remember. We used to go out for rides. And we got caught in a dirt storm one day. We were actually up on Van Giesen. And my dad had to pull over, because we couldn't even see where we were going. We lived on Falley Street, which is where you cross George Washington Way, it becomes Bradley Boulevard to go down to all the hotels and motels down there and where the old garbage dump was. And we moved into an F house on Falley Street in 1946. Bauman: And where did you go to school then? Lippold: I went to Lewis and Clark Elementary. And then I went to Carmichael Junior high. School. I went to Columbia High School, graduated from there in 1954, long time ago. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Do you have any memories from your time going to school here? Lippold: Oh, heavens. [LAUGHTER] Yes, I have a lot. We moved here from Seattle in the summertime. And my mother sent me to school. They entered me into Lewis and Clark on a Friday afternoon. And I wore knee socks. And not one other girl at Lewis and Clark had on knee socks. So we had to go buy some anklets for Monday. And when I got to school on Monday, they were all in knee socks. [LAUGHTER] That's my big memory of my first day at school in Richland. We lived in walking distance. We were just a block from Lewis and Clark. And I can remember running home at noon and running back to school. And I remember a lot of my teachers. Bauman: Are there any that particularly stand out or your favorites? Lippold: Well, remember Mr. Bressler, because he lived down the street from us, for one reason. But he was a very dynamic teacher. I don't actually think I ever had him. I think he was my PE teacher. My first teacher was named Jean Mabley, Mrs. Mabley. And she was from Tennessee. And we were all just fascinated with their accent. And then she got pregnant. And back in those days if you were pregnant, you did not teach elementary school. So she left us. We outgrew the building at Lewis and Clark and moved into Quonset huts. So I spent my sixth grade in a Quonset hut. And the boy in back of me used to untie my belt that I had on around my dress and tie it to my chair, so that when I got up, my chair went with me. [LAUGHTER] Those are the types of memories I have. I did have two uncles who worked out at Hanford. They both lived in Pasco. They were both chemists on the Hanford reservation. They didn't know what their job was really. I mean, they knew what individually they did. But they didn't realize they were building an atomic bomb. And it's interesting to me that they both died fairly young of pancreatic cancer. And they weren't related by blood. It was my uncle-in-law and my blood uncle. So I don't know. You read all these things about things that have occurred with people who worked at Hanford. It may be coincidence, but that's why happened to our family. My dad was--well, my mother and dad both worked in the Richland school district for 30, 40 years. Bauman: Do you remember any community events or those sorts of things when you were growing up? Lippold: Well, I was a Girl Scout. And we did a lot of community things. I know all the churches, and I know what kind of organs they all had, because I'm at church organist. And I started that when I was ten at All Saints Episcopal in Richland. Oh, I remember the Atomic Frontier Days every summer. And there was a baseball diamond just down at the end of Falley Street across George Washington Way down over the embankment there. And we spent a lot of time in the park—I guess it's Howard Amon Park now, yeah. And as far as community events, that's about all from a ten-year-old—I was from ten ‘til I went away to college here. Bauman: Could you describe the Atomic Frontier Days, like what sorts of-- Lippold: Well, it originally started out being the Grape Festival. And that was in Kennewick. And it somehow turned into one big Tri-City event called Atomic Frontier Days. And it was just, I don't know, two or three days of—a carnival always came to town and always had a Miss. Richland. That was usually wear Miss Richland was crowned and that type of thing. I don't particularly—nothing stands out to me as far as Atomic Frontier Days goes, other than it was something we looked forward to. Bauman: You mentioned the churches, you played organ? Lippold: Yes. Bauman: Was this when you were growing up? Lippold: Yes. Bauman: So what churches were there in the 1940s and early '50s? Lippold: Well, the one I remember best is what is now Richland Lutheran. And it was just a big white government building. And the Lutherans owned—well, they didn't own the building. The Army owned everything at that time, or the government owned everything. But the Episcopalians, of which I was, used the church from eight until nine o'clock. And I sat up front at the organ. And I always was looking out of the corner of my eye. And I could see the Lutheran pastor standing waiting to come out. [LAUGHTER] So we always knew it was getting time for us to get out of there. And then there was Central United Protestant Church, which was a big church at the time, Christ the King, Southside, Northwest, and West Side United Protestant, which is now--I guess it's still called West Side. But they all had Hammond organs at the time. All the organs were alike, same instrument. And I played at All Saints in the Sunday school until I was 13, when the organist moved away. And they moved me upstairs, where I could see the Lutherans waiting to come in and play the organ. And I'm still playing. Bauman: So when you were growing up, both your parents you said were in the school district. Lippold: Yes. Bauman: Were most of your friends’ fathers or parents working at Hanford then? Lippold: Yes. All of our neighbors except for the ones who were teachers. We had a few teacher neighbors. But all of our neighbors worked at Hanford. I don't know what they did. And I'm not sure they knew what they did. But they got on buses. And it was funny, things I do remember back then, the houses were all exactly alike. There were two F houses on our side of the street and four on the other side of the street. And every Saturday night—evidently the payday was on Friday. And the guys that were single, or maybe they weren't single, would go out and celebrate pay day. And then they would be on their way home and get the wrong house, because they all looked exactly alike. But we had people walking into our house all the time thinking they were home. Well, we did the same thing. We walked into our next door neighbor's house one night. One day my aunt and my grandmother came out. And Mother and I looked out the window and my aunt up going like this into the next door neighbor's window. And we called. I was like, what are you doing? Oh. [LAUGHTER] She thought she was at our house. But that was easy to do—the houses all looked exactly alike until you got to know who lived inside, and then we knew. Bauman: So were you still living in Richland when it became sort of independent of the federal government then? Lippold: No. It became incorporated in 1958. And by then, I was married. My husband was in the Air Force. And we were all over for 21 years. And then we came back. We didn't find any place we liked better than the Tri-Cities. Except for the fact that the year we came back, the wind didn't quit blowing for over a year. [LAUGHTER] We were about ready to pack up and go somewhere else, and then it quit. Bauman: Did your parents buy their house then, when they-- Lippold: They bought the F house that they lived in, yes. I don't recall what they bought it for. I think $6,000. And it was a nice house. They were so excited, because it was the first new house they had actually had. And you got assigned a house by what job you had. And my dad, being a school administrator, got a fairly nice house. The Fs are a two-story single unit. And I remember even—General Electric at this time had taken over the project. And if you had a light bulb burned out, you just called GE, and they came and put in a new light bulb. They delivered coal. And it was like living on a military installation, which I did for 21 years. [LAUGHTER] So it was quite a bit like Richland was in the days before I left. Then I worked for the City of Richland from 1976 to 2001. And I was the expert—if anybody wanted to know anything about the old garbage dump, they came to me. [LAUGHTER] Because we lived right by it and played down there. In those days, you could go down, play at the dump and really find some neat things. My original engagement ring is down there somewhere. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And how did that happen? Lippold: My husband and I had to date to go see Gone with the Wind. And he was out flying a model airplane, and he came home too late to go to Gone with the Wind. I think I was 16 or 17. And I took my ring off and threw it at him. And then he took it, went out on the front porch and really let it fly. That was Labor Day weekend. And all the neighbors spent Labor Day weekend looking for my ring. And we never found it. A pickup truck went down the street shortly after hauling a poplar tree. And we think the ring probably hooked on the poplar tree and went with it to the dump. But I was always familiar with all the--I knew where the sewer plant was and where the water plant was. Well, I worked in public works. But I had known where the old ones were. Bauman: So what year did you graduate high school? Lippold: I graduated from Columbia High school. Yeah. Bauman: In what year? Lippold: '54. 1954. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then you came back to Richland? Lippold: Yeah. We were gone for 21 years. And then we moved back. And we didn't know what we were going to be doing or where we were going to be living, but we decided to buy a house in Kennewick. And we ended up with my husband working in Pasco. And I was working in Richland. And our kids went to school in Kennewick, which worked out well. Bauman: You were covering the Tri-Cities. Lippold: Yes, very. I definitely am a Tri-Citian. Bauman: So how had the place changed in the 21 years that you were-- Lippold: Well, housing prices [LAUGHTER] had increased immensely. My parents, as I said, paid $6,000 for their F house. And just when we came back—our last military assignment was in Germany—and when we got back from Germany, they offered us the house for $18,000. And we were like idiots, we did not buy it. So we went to Kennewick and paid a lot more than that. But housing went up quite a bit in those 21 years. I don't really remember how much houses were when we left here when I was married. Because I paid my parents $25 a week rent while I worked for GE and waited till my husband got out of cadets, so we could get married. Bauman: How about the community itself? Had it changed much did it seem to you? Lippold: Not really. Bauman: Same place? Lippold: There were more houses that weren't government. Alphabet houses, of course, had been built in North Richland. And they were just starting to build out at Meadow Springs area. And we had some friends who had bought land out around Columbia Center area when we were teenagers. It was one of my friends’ father's. And we just could not imagine why he would buy land out there. [LAUGHTER] But it was a good move on his part. Bauman: It seemed quite remote at the time, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Anything else? Any other memories that sort of really stand out to you from your time growing up in Richland? Lippold: Well, it was just a nice place to grow up. We were running around the streets playing hide-and-go-seek at night and playing tag and all the things that kids did back then. We followed the mosquito spray truck, which was DDT. And the big sport was to ride your bicycle in the fog behind the mosquito truck. And no one thought a thing of that. And I remember one day we were having a party in our backyard and the mosquito truck came by, and we were just all lost in a white fog until it blew away. We could walk just about any place. I walked to my music lesson, which was on Van Giesen. And I lived on Falley Street. And that was a long walk. We went to the movies. The Richland Theater was there. And The Village Theater had movies. They had westerns every Saturday morning. And then after Uptown was built--I'm not sure what year Uptown was built. I know it was when I was in junior high, probably 1949, '50. And that was a big occasion to have the Uptown Theater there. And they Army, I remember when the Army base opened up, Camp Hanford. Because my dad was military, and my husband-to-be was military. Our wedding reception was out at Camp Hanford. But it was just a nice safe place to live. You never thought anything would happen to you or could happen--anything bad--here. Bauman: You mentioned the Uptown shopping center. Before Uptown, where did you go to for shopping? Lippold: Downtown, which is now called the Parkade. And down there, they had Thrifty Drugstore. Well, and the owner of Thrifty Drug was our neighbor. He lived in an L house, which was a very nice single four bedroom two-story unit. They lived just around the corner from us. And then there was a C. C. Anderson's, which is now Macy's. But that was the big department store. There was a hardware store on the corner of Lee and George Washington Way. And the Village Theater was across the street on George Washington Way from the hardware store. The building is still there. If you know—when you're driving up George Washington Way, you can find where the theater was. There was an optometrist in there for years. But my memories of Richland are—I don't have a lot of memories of Hanford, because we were never really directly concerned with Hanford other than everybody we knew worked there. We were very involved in anything to do with the schools. Bauman: Right. And so your father was at Carmichael? Lippold: Yes. Bauman: And for how long? Lippold: He was there until 1963. He retired just at the right time when boys started wearing their pants low and didn't wear belts to school. My dad sent them home to put on a belt. He was an old fashioned school disciplinarian. And I think it was good for his blood pressure that he retired in 1963, because things changed pretty drastically during the '60s. Then my dad worked for Benton County Public Health District as the business manager for 15 years. And then he retired. Bauman: And how about your mom? You said she was-- Lippold: She was a teacher for years. She always said her most interesting teaching experience in Richland was at John Ball School, which was a school built out north of Jefferson. And it was built for the Camp Hanford kids. Bauman: Okay. Lippold: And she said those were the most interesting group of kids she had ever had. Because they were from all over the United States. And here they were all of a sudden up in the middle of nowhere Hanford where the wind blew all the time. But she loved John Ball School. She was there for two or three years. She taught at Jefferson, Marcus Whitman. She wouldn't substitute at my dad's school, she wouldn't go to Carmichael, because he was there. [LAUGHTER] Not that she didn't like him, but she didn't think she should be substituting at her husband's school. Like I shouldn't have been going to my dad's school. Bauman: What was her name? Lippold: Her name was Mary Anderson. That's one of the reasons I go by my two names. Bauman: Well, was there anything else that we haven't talked about yet in your memories of Richland that you'd like to share? Lippold: Well, I've got how many years of memories. [LAUGHTER] I should have a lot. But most of my memories are through the eyes of either a ten-year-old, ten to 21. I was 21 when I moved away, when I got married and followed the military with my husband. So my memories are kid's memories. I remember when President Kennedy came to Hanford. I happened to be—we were home on leave. And that was exciting. I did get to go out and see him. We saw President Eisenhower. He came to the opening of Ice Harbor Dam I think, one of the dams. We got up at five o'clock in the morning to go see President Eisenhower. I don't know what stands out in my mind. High school was fun. We used to, during homecoming, the kids always did what they called a serpentine. I don't know if they do that anymore or not. But we all held hands. And there were 309 in our graduating class, and we all just held hands and ran all over. [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't go far right now. The night before the homecoming ball game it was just like a big snake. We were all in one big line and followed the person that we were hanging onto. Bauman: Going back to President Kennedy's visit, do you have any specific memories from that visit, what the day was like or the crowd, or anything from that? Lippold: It was a huge crowd. Mainly, I just remember we didn't get real close to him. But we were close enough to be able to recognize him and know who he was. And I don't remember what year it was that he came and why we were even here at the time, but we used to come home on leave. My husband got 30 days of leave from the military every year, plus every time we moved, which was 22 times in 20 years. [LAUGHTER] They usually had a couple of months to make the move, the transition and so forth, and we always came home for that. And our boys and I came home—lived in Richland when my husband was overseas. He was a pilot on B-52s, so he had three tours over Vietnam. One in Vietnam and the other two were just flying over it. And Richland then—yeah, that was in 1967 I think. And the price of gas went up to $0.41 a gallon. And I was just incensed over that, that they could charge $0.41 for a gallon of gas. I went to a gas station. We lived upon Cedar, our two boys and I, during the year that my husband was in Vietnam. And I went to a gas station up on the corner of Swift and Thayer I think--or Wright. And it was called Buck and Joe's. And one day I took my car in there. And they knew that I was living by myself and didn't have a husband to tend to my car. And I don't remember what it was that wrong with my car. But they charged me $0.10. [LAUGHTER] So I decided they were good guys. One day I was down at the golf course--there was par three golf course just down off George Washington Way, kind of where the golf course is now, but way north of it. And I couldn't get my car started, so I called them and they came down. And they said, well, maybe if you put it in park it would start. So I was rather embarrassed over that. [LAUGHTER] Plus my golfing was a very bad, too. I hit every tree down there. Bauman: So just looking back over your years, especially your years growing up, overall how would you describe the community in Richland in the '40s and '50s? Lippold: Well, we loved it. Like I said, it was just a fun place to be. My parents were very strict with both my brother and me. And my dad, of course, was always close to the police chief. And my brother is two and a half years younger than I am. And my dad always had the police watching him. [LAUGHTER] So he couldn't get away with anything. And he did try, but it didn't work. It was a place where you just didn't think anything would happen to you. And actually nothing really did. I had to be in bed by nine o'clock. All the kids knew that I had to be in bed at nine o'clock. So they would ride their bicycles up and down the street yelling at me, and I was always up in my bed lying down looking out my window wishing I was out there riding my bicycle with them. [LAUGHTER] It was just kind of like Mayberry in Andy Griffith living here. Everybody knew everybody. Our Girl Scout troop, we were all friends. We all lived in the south end. Even now, when we go to our class reunions, we tend to pair off or group of into the Lewis and Clark group and the Marcus Whitman group and the Spalding, you know, all the different grade schools. Because those are the people that we had known since the beginning of--well, I came here in the fifth grade. But a lot of them had been there earlier. Not too much earlier, because we came here about maybe a couple years later than the majority of the families—kids who were in school. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your memories of those early years of Richland, growing up here. Lippold: Well, you’re welcome. I wish I knew more about the actual history of Hanford. But hearsay is about all I would have on that subject. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, no, these are great stories. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Lippold: Okay. You're wel-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:31:09 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 198 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1942, ca1946-1954, ca1975-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Mabley, Jean Anderson, Christian Anderson, Mary Kennedy, John F. Eisenhower, Dwight D. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Esther Lippold Description An account of the resource An interview with Esther Lippold conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Richland (Wash.)--History--20th century. Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-12-9 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-23: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Eisenhower, Dwight D. General Electric Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7f7715623100afbb66dd47e73de6f561.jpg 0002ffe11948b43311ebb7a961d5a628 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9ebfcd597b679760a742fd7933925b23.mp4 ed164cfe7bd11e113062417f98a3f61a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack McElroy Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Northwest Public Television | McElroy_Jack </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Robert Bauman: All right. We'll go ahead and started then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Jack McElroy: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: We could maybe start by having you say your name and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. My name is a Jack McElroy. It's J-A-C-K M-C-E-L-R-O-Y. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Great. Thank you. And today's date is October 22nd of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start if we could by having you talk about when you came to work at Hanford initially, what brought you here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. I was born at Grand Coulee Dam when my folks came out here from North Carolina and grew up in Spokane. And they came out here to work on the dam. After it was completed, we moved Spokane. I grew up there. So at Lewis and Clark High School I took all their math and science classes. And in my senior year, Hanford started an engineering technician development program. And I was hired directly from high school by General Electric. And I came here in the summer of 1955 and started working. I was at the large central store's administration building next to the bus lot for a couple months while they obtained our Q clearances. And the program also involved sending us to classes. So during that time, we also started going to classes. So I basically came here in 1955 at the age of 18 directly out of high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: How many students were there? How many-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: There was about 20 of us that they recruited. There were several of us from Spokane. In fact, we formed a carpool and would go back to Spokane almost every weekend using the ferry that was here at North Richland, went over to South Landing on the Pasco side. And that was the quickest way to get back and forth. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And so how long did you do that then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I did that for a year and a half. And I had some great rotations. And at the same time that I signed on down here, I joined the Air National Guard out in Spokane. And I was interested in flying. So in 1957, I actually left here to go into the pilot training program. But I probably ought to back up to my experiences here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I want to ask you about, you said a different rotation. What sort of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. My first assignment was radiation monitoring in a 325 Building, where I was basically a technician supporting chemists and also other radiation monitors. I learned a lot about the radiation and monitoring and so on, which was limited to the radio chemistry labs there in the 325 Building. My second assignment took me out to the 100 Areas, where I worked for Larry McEwen and the heat transfer group. And I was assigned to his group in the hydraulics lab that was at the 100-D and D Area. And I brought in a picture and gave that to you of me working there in the lab. I met some really great chemical engineers there including a guy that would have an effect in my life later on by the name of John Batch who was a PhD from Purdue. And they had quite an influence on my future as it turned out. My next assignment, I went to radiation monitoring again with Herm Pass in the 100 Areas. And he was stationed--they had an office at the 100-D, D Area also. And while I was on that assignment, I was very fortunate to be involved in the 105-B outage. And during that outage, we supported the changing out of the old curlicue pig tails. They basically looked like the real pig tail, and that's how they got their name. They were formed just like a curlicue. And they were on the front face of the reactors. And in 1956, on the B Reactor, they changed those out and put in stainless steel, flexible hoses and pipes. And so I was there at the reactor at that time supporting that operation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: How long did that take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Oh, it was just a month or so to actually do that. And that was actually my last assignment. And I did pretty good and actually achieved radiation monitor status before I left and went into the Air Force in early 1957. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Of those different assignments, did you have one that you enjoyed the most? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I think the radiation monitoring at 100 Areas. I got to go out to all the different reactors. I was able to go the rear face on occasion. I mean, the rear face is a really hot, hot area. So you had to stay out to the side. But at least I was able to see the rear faces on the reactors and the front faces on several reactors. And so that was a very exciting assignment. But it was the hydraulics lab and heat transfer unit that probably had the biggest impact on me later on when I decided to go to college after I was in the Air Force. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And so what sort of work did you do in the hydraulics lab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Basically took measurements of fluid flow. And then I did an awful lot of graphing for the engineers and realized at that time that, geez, if I had a degree, I could be having somebody else do the graphs for me. So it was very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And you said that you and a group of you would drive to Spokane often, basically on weekends. Where did you stay? when you-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: When we came here, they put us up in the Sanford Hotel, which was on Swift Boulevard. It's since been removed. But it was an old army barracks type of place and had simple bunk beds and so on in it. But in 1955, the government started turning the city over to the community, basically. And things like prefab became available for renting. And so on a group of four of us actually applied for a prefab and ended up in a one-bedroom prefab at 1213 Potter Street. And it was a little bit crowded, but we had a ball. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And what was the community of Richland like at the time, 1955, '56? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: It still had a mess hall. You could go to the mess hall there downtown just across from where the post office is at now and have a large buffet dinner and eat there. As I said, we stayed in the little hotel, barracks type hotel. Uptown Theater was there. It was pretty normal, small community. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And so you were here for a year and a half or so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And then if you can talk about what you did and what brought you back to Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. Well, I left to go in the military. And I actually became a pilot and an officer and came back to the Washington Air National Guard up at Geiger Field and basically, at that time, decided, well, this is a great opportunity for me to go back to school. So I went to Gonzaga University while I was flying with the Guard and Air Force. And I received a Bachelor of Science in chemical engineering. And GE hired me immediately to bring me back down here. So I was back down here in July of 1963. So I was gone for about six years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Were you hoping to get back to Hanford at some point? Or was that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: You know, I didn't know. I really didn't know what life had in store for me, but it just kept changing and progressing. And I was certainly glad to get back down here once I had the opportunity. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So when you came back in 1963, then what sort of work were you doing? What areas were you working in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I kind of stumbled, or fate or something steered me into waste management and the group that was pioneering the development of waste treatment technology for handling radioactive waste. And they were just based, had a lot of their people, in a 321 Building, which was a building that had a lot of history. Other people may have mentioned it, but it had a lot of history for developing separations technology for the site. And at the time I was there, it was actually being used to develop which treatment technology. And so I got in with that group. And I spent three or four months with them learning about vitrification and also something called calcining, where you take liquid waste and heat it up, and drive off a lot of the volatile materials and turn it into a powder. And then from that, we would melt it, vitrify it, make glasses. So that was my first assignment. Second assignment, I went out to 100-N Area and had a great assignment there. I was a process engineer. And I was actually out there at the site when President Kennedy came in 19--I think was 1963, prior to the assassination of course--and saw him speak. And that was a great event. And N Reactor was a great reactor. It's unfortunate that we had to shut it down the way we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Do you have any specific memories from the day that President Kennedy was here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Not really, no. I definitely remember being out there and seeing him, and hearing him talk, and the helicopters, pretty routine stuff. Yeah. I had one other rotation at PRTR, Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor, where I worked on the containment system for them. But in 1964, it was announced that they were going to shut down all the reactors. And so I decided it was time for me to pick a permanent assignment. And so I went back to the waste management group. I don't know if I mentioned their names, but Al Platt and Carl Cooley were heading up that organization. And they were real pioneers for developing waste treatment technology and working with other international people like in England and France at that time. So I got in with that group and had a lot of great opportunities with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: You mentioned as early as '63 they were already starting to work on vitrification sort of technologies? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: What other sorts of technologies and waste treatment were being researched or worked on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: At that time, it was primarily calcination and vitrification and looking at three different products, either a calcine powdery dry product for final storage or either phosphate glass or borosilicate glass. And also there was a phosphate ceramic at the time. So it really hadn't been decided what was going to be the choice for the US, what direction we were going to go with the treatment technology. And in the program I was in starting a '65, we actually demonstrated with radioactive material in the 324 Building several different technologies with all these different products. And from that, we chose to go with borosilicate glass, which is the current standard for product form for high level radioactive waste. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And what led you to that sort of solution? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: The processes that we demonstrated, basically that seemed to be one of the best. We actually made it with in-can melting, a spray calciner, and in-can melter. I brought in another photograph of that showing all this equipment in the cell with the spray calciner setting over an in-can melter. And basically the product from that, the borosilicate glass, turned out to be the best product in terms of its durability. And also the process, in-can melting, was a pretty straightforward simple process to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Can you explain that a little bit, just a little detail? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. Basically we sprayed liquid waste into the spray calciner, which is heated to about 700 degrees centigrade. And as the droplets came down, they dried. And it would be hot enough to where you'd get rid of all the nitrates and convert it to oxides. And the oxides would then fall down into the melter. We had a couple different melters at the time. We were actually looking at a continuous melter, that was made out of platinum and far too expensive, and the in-can melter, which is made out of Inconel. And we would add additives, boron and silica, to the calcine, and then heat them up to over 1,000 degrees centigrade in either the melter or the in-can melter and convert to the glass. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So about what time period was this conclusion made to go with vitrification? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: The program was from '65 to '71. And so it was around 1970 that we basically decided that the borosilicate glass was the preferred route. And then things changed. And they actually didn't support doing any waste work for about a year and started it backup in 1972. And in 1972, I was recruited to be the manager for the development of the vitrification program. I was recruited by Al Platt, who I mentioned earlier and John Batch, who was one of the PhD chemical engineers out at the 100-D Reactor at the time I was there as a technician. So it kind of came back around again with one of the people that I word for earlier. So they recruited me to head up the program to further develop technology for using in the United States, for vitrifying high level waste. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So were you actually able to begin the process of [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: In '72, we started building the program with the focus on the spray calciner and in-can melter, which was the choice from that earlier program, and also decided it was time to look at something that would handle large quantities of waste, such as what they have here at Hanford. Because when you just melt in a can, you're pretty well limited in terms of size and processing rate. So in 1972, I hired an engineer, actually Battelle hired him. Hanford Labs under General Electric became the Pacific Northwest Laboratories under Battelle. And so in 1972, I was then working for Battelle. And at that time, we started developing and hiring engineers. And so one of the engineers was Chris Chapman out of Kansas. He was a mechanical engineer. And we put him in charge of developing a new melter technology, a Joule-heated ceramic melter. And to jump further ahead, the Joule-heater ceramic melter now is the heart of the waste treatment plant. There's two of them in the low activity waste facility and two in the high level waste facility. But anyway, we started developing that technology in early '70s. And by 1975, we had a prototype working in the 324 Building of a liquid-fed Joule-heated ceramic melter. And I brought in a picture of that also to share with you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So that's almost 40 years ago now that you really started developing some of that technology. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. If you add that up, that's probably 41 years. So it's over 40 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah, time flies. Anyway, that technology--1977--we were developing most of this technology actually for the commercial nuclear fuel cycle with the expectation that the United States would develop reprocessing and have a complete fuel cycle here. In 1977, President Carter put a moratorium on reprocessing and that just threw everything into turmoil. And fortunately, there was a gentleman by the name of Frank Baranowski that was running the Department of Energy Defense Waste sites. And he chose to pick up the technology. And so we then turned all of our efforts from the commercial fuel cycle to supporting the Defense Waste facilities. So we spent several years working with DuPont to transfer the know-how for the spray calciner and in-can melter, as well as the Joule-heated melter for use down at Savannah River. And they initially started out choosing the spray calciner and in-can melter. But after they figured that there was a huge cost savings by eliminating the tall calciner in terms of canyon height for hot cells and processing cells, they decided to go with the Joule-heated melter. So we worked with DuPont and helped them get that technology in place in the Defense Waste Processing facility at Savannah River. And it's been very successful. It's been running for about 20 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: So you came initially in 1955-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: --and the focus at Hanford was production. And came back in the '60s. It was just about to shift to definitely reduced production, right, and then-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I guess if you look back at that, you've seen a lot of the changes in mission, changes in technology. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: In thinking back to the years you worked at Hanford and the changes, what--I mean, obviously impacted your work in terms of what you were focusing on. But the changes in technology must've impacted your work as well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah. I still do a little consulting. It turned out to be a hot area, [LAUGHTER] waste management. So I'm still involved in it on a small part-time basis. I've retired two or three times. And I actually ran a small company for Battelle out there called Geosafe. We actually went out and we developed another technology called in-situ vitrification, where we literally clean up sites by putting electrodes in the ground and melting the earth and the soil. And we brought that along and made it to where it was capable of actually using the same method to melt in a large container. And so for a while here, Hanford was looking at that technology, it was called bulk vitrification, as a way of supplementing the current Vit Plant. And it's possible that that technology might still have a use here at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Mm-hm. So you came back and '63. And then how long did you stay working at [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I worked for 30 years as an engineer and retired in '95 from Battelle. But I retired to run a small company for Battelle, the Geosafe company. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Right. In looking back at the various things you've worked on, was there a part of your work, an aspect of the work that you found most challenging or part of it that you found the most rewarding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Probably the most challenging and rewarding was trying to make things work in a hot cell. The 324 Building—which is still there and may be there for a while, because there's contamination under the cell where we were doing the processing. Making things work, making them reliable, and getting week-long tests completed without major interruptions that was very challenging and very rewarding. And it could be done. Sometimes the only way to solve the problem was to put it in a hot cell and make it work. You could spend a long time outside playing around, but you really didn't know what the issues and problems were until you put in it in there and tried to do it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And then also during your years at Hanford, were there any incidents that stand out or problems or events that happened that stand out in your mind above some of the others? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Hmm. Not really. I mean, some little events, but probably wouldn't want to put them on tape. [LAUGHTER] I would have to say that I am so amazed at the Manhattan Project and what they did so quickly and successfully. And even when I came here in '55 and then on in the '60s, we were able to do things pretty quickly. I mean, we could build it, put it in, test it. And somewhere '70s, '80s, things started to get too bogged down in paperwork and overly cautious. The safety culture was always there. But somehow or another the safety culture got to where it really slowed things down. And it's unfortunate. It just takes too long now to get things done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Is there any specific examples of concerns about safety or security that sort of thing that you can think of? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Just the requirements for dotting the i's and crossing the t's and undergoing inspections and being afraid. I mean, I mentioned that sometimes the best way to get something done was to put it in there and make it work. Now, you can't put it in there until you're positive it's going to work. The Vit plant's a great example of that. And they have a truly big concern associated with these Pulse Jet Mixer tanks in the black cells, where they're going to be in there for 40 years. And I mean, that's a legitimate concern. But the fact is I believe that 90% of the waste could be processed without that concern. And then we're holding up the whole plant because of this other 10% of the waste. And that's frustrating. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Looking back on your time working at Hanford, how would you assess, overall, your experiences working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I had a great, great career, great experiences. A lot of memories, a lot of good memories, a lot of great people. And I raised my family here, too, my wife Carol, and daughter Toni and Jill. They're Bombers. It was Col High, Columbia High, at the time that they went to high school there. Now, it's Richland High School. And they had a great, great life and experience here also. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I wonder if you could talk about the relationship between Hanford the workplace and then the community. How would you describe that relationship as you were living here in the '60s and '70s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I don't know, just business as usual. I don't set it apart from any of the other businesses around the area in terms of being different or unique. So just business as usual to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I wonder, is there anything I haven't asked you about yet related to your work experience at Hanford or something that you'd like to share or talk about that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: I don't think so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I wanted to make sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: There's probably something I'll think about later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] That happens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah, of course, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today. This is a really interesting--as someone who came like you said as a--just out of high school, really. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Yeah, I think that is kind of a fortuitous event, to come directly out of high school as something like this and to be a part of history. It basically impacted my life and my future decisions of where I was going to go and what I was going to do, very positively. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: And then you came back in a very different capacity in many ways. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: Well, thank you again for coming in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> McElroy: Okay. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX152878036"> Bauman: I appreciate your coming and talking to us. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:28:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 198kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 325 Building 100 Area 100-D Reactor D Area 100-N Area N Reactor B Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955-1957 1963-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1957 1963-1993 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. McEwen, Larry Batch, John Pass, Herm Platt, Al Cooley, Carl Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Chapman, Chris Baranowski, Frank Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack McElroy Description An account of the resource An interview with Jack McElroy conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-15: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/22/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region 100 Area 100-D Reactor 100-N Area 324 Building 325 Building B Reactor D Area Hanford (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F01ac8b83614b46910a6d77d2a0a53eb9.jpg 176b179b4d82cc90ff3133f3081c1498 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6115b66c2e17d8782e7fb1f37031877e.mp4 7bc78b004a7a07f6e008322ea9b0642e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sloppy, LaVerne Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sloppy_LaVerne Camera man: Whenever you are ready. Robert Bauman: All right. Okay, looks like we're ready to start. LaVerne Sloppy: Okay. Bauman: So if we could start by just having you say your name and then spell it for us. Sloppy: LaVerne Sloppy--known by Verne. [LAUGHTER] L-A-capital V-E-R-N-E L. Sloppy--just like it sounds. Bauman: Okay. All right, my name is Bob Bauman, and today's date is November 18, 2013. And we're this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell us a little bit about your family when they originally came to this area, where they came from, and that sort of thing. Sloppy: Okay. My mother came to this area in 1909 at the age of four--Nebraska. Bauman: And do you know why your family came out here? Sloppy: Well, my grandfather went to work for the irrigation district. And he later ran the irrigation district. So she moved here with her family. Bauman: Okay, and what was his name? Sloppy: Gus Long. Augustus Long. Bauman: And then how about your father's family? Sloppy: My father's family came to Washington State much earlier, but they didn't really live in Washington at that time. In fact, my dad was born in Prosser. And he came--and may have lived briefly here when my mother was in the eighth grade ‘cause they--my parents went to eighth grade at the same time. Bauman: Okay, and then when did he move here sort of permanently here? Sloppy: He was working for Grosscup Ranch. And then they started going together, I think. And they was married here. That would have been in the late '20s, I guess because they was married in 1930. Bauman: And then, so were you born in Richland then? Sloppy: I was born in Kennewick. Bauman: In Kennewick. Sloppy: They were living in the county outside of Richland I guess at that time. Bauman: And so did your family have a farm? Sloppy: They were, I guess, leasing different things. There were a couple spots in here, and then they moved up east of Corfu in the mid-'30s sometime. And then they came back probably 1938 from up there. Bauman: Okay. And when they came back in '38, where did they live? Sloppy: They lived two--I guess it would be west Richland area when they first moved back, and we moved just to side of the Yakima River off where Van Giesen is today. And then we moved to--still in Richland, but it was the south of the Yakima--it would be south Richland now, in there, I guess. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sloppy: And then they moved off Van Giesen. The house and barn are still there off Van Giesen as you go towards west Richland, you cross a railroad. There's a concrete block house that's got a business in there now. That was the last place we lived in Richland. Bauman: Oh, really? Sloppy: For a while. And yeah, the barn and the house are still there. There's something of a business in the house right now. And the barn is still there, too. Bauman: So on these different places you lived, were these farms for most part? Sloppy: Yeah, they were all farms. Bauman: Mm-hm. And what sort of what's of crops did you grow on those farms? Sloppy: Dad had dairy cows and, of course, alfalfa and then potatoes, starting an asparagus place there on that last place I mentioned. He was actually buying that house. It belonged to the bank and him when they took those places over. Bauman: Oh, okay. And this was the one on Van Giesen? Sloppy: Yeah. Bauman: So you were born in what year? Sloppy: 1932. Bauman: '32? Sloppy: Barely. Bauman: Barely? [LAUGHTER] Sloppy: It was almost '33. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sloppy: I do have one brother. My oldest brother, who is younger than I am, was born in Richland in '34. Bauman: So what do you remember growing up in this area? What was the area like at the time? Sloppy: Well, it was all mostly farms, and of course, the small town of Richland. And my mother, she had mentioned, after high school worked at the--for John Dam in the store that he had until my parents married. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you remember in this small town of Richland when you were growing up, do you remember any of the specific businesses, the John Dam store, but anything else that you remember? Sloppy: George Gress's butcher shop. Frozen--that's where all the meat was frozen and stuff. And of course we didn't have any electricity on the farms at that time. Bauman: Did you ever get electricity before '43? Sloppy: Not before we moved, because we moved to Kennewick--or to the Finley area, actually after we left here. Bauman: How about a telephone? Sloppy: Not when we was living in Richland. Bauman: When you were growing up on these farms, did you have certain chores or jobs? Sloppy: Oh, yeah. Bauman: What sorts of things did you do? Were you supposed to do? Sloppy: Well, I started out milking one cow when I was about, oh, I guess it was six or seven. And I turned a hammer—the separator for the cream, separating the milk and the cream. And being one of the older ones of some of the chores in the house. And I was carrying water for my mother to wash clothes. Because we didn't have house—water in the house. It was an outside pump, like that--pump the water and carry it for doing the washing and stuff and the house water and stuff. And things like that and all kinds of chores around the farm. He had cows and pigs and chickens. My mother took care of chickens. Bauman: What about school? Where did you attend school? Sloppy: I actually started what should have been my kindergarten year. But I started first grade here on that place east of Othello up there. And then I went through Richland Elementary School until the fifth grade, and that's when we moved to Finley. I attended the Kennewick schools then. Bauman: Okay. And how did you get to school? Did you walk? Did you take a bus? Sloppy: We took buses. They had school buses. It was too far to walk, most of us farmers. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you have any particular memories about your time at school in Richland? Any teachers or any events that you remember? Sloppy: Not really. I can't remember much. My older sister might remember some of them. But I don't remember. I think it was a Mrs. Bell at one time. That probably had been the first grade because my parents put me back with my peers. Because I actually started first grade up there in a little bitty school that they had out there. Then we had four students in the whole thing, and two of them belonged to the school teacher, and the other one was my older sister. So my parents, I didn't really learn anything in kindergarten. And so they put me back with the students which was real my age--the first grade. And I stayed with them. Bauman: What sorts of things do you remember doing for fun when you were growing up? Sloppy: Well, mostly around the farm and we done a lot of playing outside and stuff--my younger brothers. It was mostly chores. It wasn't a lot of fun things and playing with neighbors’ kids because it was a distance away. Though some of my cousins were fairly close, and my grandfather was living very close. And I remember a lot of things about him and my mother's family here, but I had been told—not that I remember it. Because my grandmother died '33, and my grandfather raised--at the time of her death, it was eight, but one of my uncles died shortly after my grandmother did, and he raised as a single parent, and it was seven children—five girls and two boys, all of which had died in their 80s. And he was actually the one that turned the irrigation water off for the Richland Irrigation District at the time that they took all these places. He retired, but he ran the irrigation district for years as well as farmed. Bauman: So you mean, in 1943 when they turned-- Sloppy: Yeah. He had retired then. He probably retired very late, '39, '40. Bauman: And how long did he work for irrigation district, do you know? Sloppy: 1909 until then. Bauman: Okay, right. That's a long time. Sloppy: Yeah. And also my great-grandmother and grandfather Long were here before him, but they left here and went to western Washington after that. One of my--his younger brother was I think the first graduate in the class from Richland High. It was a book put out here some years ago, I no longer have a copy of it, that has listing him as one of the graduating class. Bauman: Did your mother ever talk about what the area was like when she was growing up? Did she ever have stories to tell? Sloppy: Mainly about her father and her mother and that sort of thing. She always thought that Long Avenue was named after my grandfather. I never saw it in writing or anything, but that was her opinion. Bauman: Do you remember any community events or activities, special occasion things in the area? Sloppy: Grange was quite big then, and they all belonged to the grange and stuff, and was active in that. Social things were more like that, and then even to just to go to town was a big event for the kids. [LAUGHTER] Of course there wasn't all of the whole family at one time. It was usually my father and maybe one or two of the kids. I remember going to George Gress's. He always would give us sausage. He'd hang one of those sausages around the kid's neck and stuff. Bauman: How about churches? Churches in the area? Were there-- Sloppy: They wasn’'t real big in church. They were real moral people. I remember at my grandfather's funeral the minister that gave it said he had known him for something like 40 years and never seen him inside his church or any other church. But he never smoked, drank, or cussed or--was an extremely honest, moral person. However, they did practice it, I mean by their moral standards and stuff. Bauman: So, 1943, when the federal government decides to build the Hanford site, how did your family find out? What memories do you have of that time? Sloppy: Well, I'm not sure. I guess they came to the different locations, which my grandfather was on the shore water property lines also. I told them--but I would have been--in '43, let’s see--4th, 5th grade. I don't remember them coming to the house in particular or anything. Bauman: Did you remember how you found out? Did your parents tell you? Sloppy: My parents told me. Bauman: And do you remember what you thought at the time? Or did your parents have anything--what they said about it? Sloppy: Well, they were just getting started in buying the place, and I'm not sure they were upset about it. But as I remember, the bank owned the majority of the properties, and they were in the process of buying it. I think my parents, if I remember correctly, probably got $1,000 with that--got everything else. My grandfather actually sued the government along with some other people and got slightly more. But he owned his place outright, of course. But how he got told--probably them contacting him to find out where the property lines was and everything. And I had one aunt that had a place too, which no longer exists. It was off Van Giesen too. Bauman: Do you remember how long you were--when you actually moved off your place? Sloppy: It was in '43, I'm sure because my youngest brother was born in '42, and he was a baby. Bauman: Mm-hm. Do you have any idea, like, how long you were there after you found out that you had to move? Sloppy: It was a matter of months, but I can't-- Bauman: Right. You mentioned earlier that this is mostly farms and so forth. Who were your closest neighbors in that last place? Sloppy: Well, let's see. It was a man—by the name of, I guess his last name was Townsend--had a gas station closer to the Yakima there. And then my aunt and uncle—it was kind of kitty-corner place. Their name was Johnson. But the closest ones—I am trying to remember the name, of course, would now be Van Giesen from that house. I can't remember his name. He was a bachelor. I think it was Thornton, but I can't be--I'm not sure on that name. Bauman: Mm. And going back to the property you lived on, what sort of irrigation system did they have? How did that work? Sloppy: It was quite similar to what the Kennewick and Columbia Irrigation Districts are. It was an irrigation ditch, and they piped to the irrigation ditches into it--to the different farms. Bauman: Are there any memories from your years growing up in Richland really stand out to you, or you remember well, or have a special place in your memory? Sloppy: I’m trying to think of something, I can't think of anything off hand. Bauman: Mm-hm. Did you do a lot of fishing and hunting or that sort of thing? Sloppy: Well, I can remember my dad [LAUGHTER] doing some bird hunting and stuff. I can remember killing pheasants in a hay field with a pitchfork, too, out of season. [LAUGHTER] At that place. And we did fish. And, actually, at that place, at that time, when the irrigation system went in, and there were a couple of lakes west of the house that ways. And I'd fish in them. And we did fish in them then. It was out in the pasture and in there--the bullhead and stuff like that. Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about occasionally going into the town of Richland. Did you ever go to any of the other neighboring towns, White Bluffs, Hanford, Pasco, Kennewick, any of those? Sloppy: No, the only thing I can remember about White Bluffs and Hanford is that my dad when he moved from that place east of Corfu. It's called Corfu by the way--he crossed cows at the ferry there probably on horseback. He brought his cows down from there to wherever we lived in Richland at the time. That book listed a schoolteacher at, I guess it was White Bluffs or a Hanford High School, or a school there as Edith Long, which was my mother's name. But it wasn't my mother. [LAUGHTER] She was not a school teacher. I am trying to remember the name of that book, but it was— Woman, off-screen: Probably "Tales of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland" by Martha Berry Parker. Sloppy: By whom? Woman: Martha Berry Parker? Sloppy: Yes, that was probably it. But it did show a woman of that name, and I don't think it was probably two women. So I think that was probably a mistake. To be named Edith M. Long. ‘Cause mom had graduated from Richland High, of course, along with most of her siblings. Bauman: Were there a lot of sports activities with the schools around here? Sloppy: No, they had athletic teams and stuff, which some of my aunts were on the teams. They are mentioned in that book also. As is Uncle Jay, my mother's Uncle Jay, was the one I told you graduated from high school. I don't have my copy anymore. I gave it to one of my brothers, and I never got it back. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So if someone was to ask you what the community of Richland was like, what this area was like in the 1930s and early 1940s, what would you tell them? Sloppy: This was just a small farming community. They all shopped at John Dam and Vick Nielson's--his partner, by the way, store. Most of them had running tabs there and storing their meat that they had butchered and George Gress's freezing place--or his meat store. I think his building is still there. It used to be a tavern and stuff in there or something. And I don't know if any of my other relatives—their other farms remain. He tried to point them out with me, but they are difficult now today. Bauman: And so then after 1943, where did your family go then? Sloppy: My parents moved in to the Finley area, which with all the mail stuff we did with the Kennewick routes, rural routes. That's still known as Sloppy's Corner out there in Finley, informally. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And so did you sorta then spend the rest of your youth there in that area? Sloppy: Until I was in junior high. And then we moved to what was called the Richland Y. The address was Kennewick, but it's now in the city limits of Richland. The house that my mother and father had there is still there. My sister actually lives there and a brother. At that time it was a Kennewick address, and now it's a Richland address. Bauman: And so then after that, where did you go? Sloppy: Well, I went into the--was drafted into the Army, and my parents and younger siblings were there and my older sister some. And then when I got out of the Army the first time, I came back there, and I lived there for a couple years also. Until I went back into the Army. I worked for General Electric for a couple of years. And I got hit by a reduction in force type thing. And my last day was a Friday in November of '57. I don't know the exact date. Tuesday I went down and reenlisted in the Army. [LAUGHTER] It was wintertime, and construction work was scarce, and I was young and single. So I left Finley then. Bauman: So this was in the 1950s, you said? Sloppy: That would have been 1957, November of '57. Bauman: November of '57. Sloppy: I went back in the Army. Bauman: And so what sort of work was it at Hanford, construction? Sloppy: No, it was for General Electric. I think it was 100H I worked at, from late '54, early '55 to '57. Bauman: And what sort of work at 100H, was it? Sloppy: It was labor truck driving, I think, for General Electric. Bauman: And how was that experience? What did you think of working at Hanford? Sloppy: It was a good job for me at the time being single, like I said, living at home. Bauman: And then you said you went back into the Army. Sloppy: Yes. Bauman: And at some point came back here? Sloppy: Well, I didn't actually--I came back to Kennewick, but that wasn’t ‘til 1986. [LAUGHTER] Because I spent 30 years in the Army. Bauman: Is there anything about your time growing up in this area that you haven't talked about yet or you think would be important to share or important for the people to know about? Sloppy: Well, no, like I said, I attended Kennewick schools, even though the addresses at that time was a Kennewick address, even though it's currently a Richland address. No, it was a normal growing up with a bunch of brothers and sisters, only two sisters, but a bunch of brothers. And it was a typical [INAUDIBLE] for them. Bauman: I just want to go back to 1943. Did your parents ever talk about having to give up their land afterwards, later? Sloppy: They naturally had some heartburn, and I don't think anybody that lived during that time, if they were adults anyway, ever voted Democrat again--boy that--since Roosevelt was the one that did it. And they probably felt that even though in my case, it would have been maybe the bank giving your land back, especially since they never did anything with that land. Now my grandpa's is probably all residential or even business because that would have been probably closer to where the hospital is now in that area. So that was all used for something. But my father's and the bank's area wasn't. My uncle's and aunt's area is still all weeds and things back against the sand hill there where the irrigation ditch ran down, where the irrigation ran down. One of my cousin's--or a couple of my cousins was here a couple of years ago, and I was able to take him real close to where it was, but there's no houses or anything. There's one house back in there now. It’d be off to the right. And most people felt that way about it. Like I say, my grandfather sued them. And it don't take a long if there’s a lawsuit. But it did get them a little bit more for the land area. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your memories and stories. I appreciate it. Sloppy: Well, now, I don't know how much this helps you, but-- Bauman: It’s great. All right. Thanks very much. Sloppy: You wouldn't know where I'd get a copy of that book, do you? [LAUGHTER] Woman off-screen: You know, it's really hard to find. I've seen it at used books. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:33:40 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 200 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1932-2014 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Long, Augustus Gress, George Parker, Martha Berry Ling, Edith M. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with LaVerne Sloppy Description An account of the resource An interview with LaVerne Sloppy conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-7-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-28: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools General Electric Housing Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd35964aec193b1b7fd28948c24cf64e1.jpg ffbf5469442b4c402cf5a627b074bd5d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd33967aae97ba9a6a5cefd32188558af.mp4 492460847de1bc4edcc96e8b10af6349 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sally Slate Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Robert Bauman: Say your name and spell your last name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Sally Slate: Okay. Sally Slate. S-L-A-T-E. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. My name’s Robert Bauman and today’s date is August 5th of 2015. We’re conducting this interview at Sally Slate’s home in Richland, Washington. So let’s—if we could, start by having you give us some background information on when you came to the Tri-Cities, what brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, I was a new graduate from the University of Idaho in June of 1955. I guess I was attracted to this area because I was going with a young man that still had a couple of years of schooling, and I wanted to be kind of close to the University of Idaho for him. Unfortunately, we broke up. [LAUGHTER] But I came as a tech grad for GE. These were three-month assignments where we rotated different assignments. My first assignment was to open up the chemistry lab at PUREX building that was still under construction. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And were you familiar with Hanford before you came here? Did you know much about the place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yes, I was, because we have an atomic energy site near southern Idaho, and my father was working there. So I was quite well-informed. In fact, I’d taken some classes in nuclear energy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And had you been to Richland or the Tri-Cities before? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And did you have a first impression when you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, everybody had told me that I was going to hate it, that it was desolate, sagebrush. I came here and I thought, gee, I’m at home! Snake River’s just around the corner. And [LAUGHTER] sagebrush, I’m well-acquainted with. Potato fields? Yes. And also, I felt very comfortable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So you said your first job was opening up the chem lab at PUREX. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Can you describe what that was like? What that work was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: It was doing a lot of dish-washing. Because everything had to be taken out of the boxes, we had to figure out where to put it in the lab, we had to get the equipment set up and tested. There were two or three of us doing that job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And can you maybe explain what PUREX was, for [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: PUREX is the separations plant that was—the fuel went in on one end of the building and made a continuous run and we got the plutonium and uranium separated at the end. The REDOX Plant, you had to do it in batches. But this was a continuous process, so it was going to be a little more efficient. As I say, it had not been—they were still under construction at the time that I was out there. And unfortunately, when we got here, nobody had Q clearances, and they thought that we needed Q clearances. So they set us in the unclassified library until they finally figured out that, oh, our clearances are all sitting on somebody’s desk and he’s on vacation, and you don’t need a Q clearance anyways, so put them to work! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So that was your first job. Where did you go from there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh. The next job was at the REDOX Plant. It was not really a happy experience. I wanted to be in the lab. As a woman chemist, I don’t think they appreciated women chemists in the lab at that time. It was trying to put together a compilation of all of the procedures that were being done, and trying to classify them so that if we got some kind of an assignment, you had to—okay, we need this analysis done. What procedures do we have available to do it? And it was well before the capabilities of our computer systems and everything now. I just didn’t appreciate that assignment. Then I went into the classified library as an abstractor. Where I had to read all of the classified—we were one of four—reading classified materials that came in. Everything from books to reports and anything generated that came into the library. We had to write a small paragraph about what the—without saying anything classified. We did bibliographies, computer searches. Except it wasn’t a computer search, it was a search of the index cards and made up answered questions that would come in. That was an interesting job. But it wasn’t as fun as being in the lab. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And how long did you work there in the classified library? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, that was pretty much—well, that was a permanent position. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I worked there until I had been married and was expecting a child. And then they required me to quit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. So you talked about being a woman chemist and it didn’t seem like you were really welcome in the lab, or that they wanted—were there other women chemists around at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: There were a few. There was a couple of others. Actually—let’s see. I’m thinking as the abstractors, the other chemist who was an abstractor was a mathematician. And the other woman was a mathematician. They were drawing the abstractors from the scientific fields, because you could teach somebody to be an abstractor, but you couldn’t teach the scientific part of it as easily. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. So was it a GE policy that when you were married and— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: --you had to quit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yes. Five months, period. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, you had five months after you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: After you got pregnant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: After you got pregnant, that you could work and then you had to quit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: That was routine. When I got to working in Idaho for Argonne National Lab, they said I could I work as long as I wanted. As long as I could do the job. Phillips Petroleum says, we think you’re pregnant. Prove it that you’re not. Otherwise, you’re gone. There’s definite bias there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: They didn’t want us riding the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: And I was riding a bus 75 miles each way. Twice a day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Do you know when that policy changed? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I don’t. Because my next experience out here was in the ‘70s. And by that time, the policy had changed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Sometime in between there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Sometime in between. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Yeah, it changed. So let’s talk about transportation. You said you had to ride a bus out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Pretty much every day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Here in Richland, we had the buses. They would pick up at specified places along the—in town. Or you could drive your car out to the big bus lot, and leave your car there and transfer to the bus that you were going to be going out into the Area on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. And where was the lot at? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh, go out Stevens, on the left-hand side as you go out Stevens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: They’ve transformed it into—part of it was an area where the police are doing training. After they had just redone the parking lot and spent millions doing the parking lot, then they decided, oh, we’ll close the buses down. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about housing when you arrived in Richland. What sort of housing was available, or wasn’t available? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, when you first come, you check into the Desert Inn, which was the only hotel in town. Then you check with the Housing Authority, and the housing office assigns you housing according to your job, and your status—your marital status. And being single, I was assigned to one of the dormitories. And we still see the dormitories around. W-5 was just off of Lee—Lee and Knight. It was definitely a dormitory. It had a house mother. Doors were closed on the weekdays at 10:00 at night. The doors were locked. It was later than that for the weekends. But you had a little room, furnished. If you took the furniture out and put your own furniture in, you couldn’t get their furniture back if you changed your mind. It was cheap. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Do you remember how much it cost? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I don’t. But something--$20 a month or less. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And so how long did you stay in the dorm then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I stayed in the dorm until—well, I went into a private apartment with a friend. And then we got married and went into a two-bedroom prefab down here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, okay, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: In the south end of town. When those houses went up for sale, we could have bought that house for $1,875. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. We thought it was too small for us, because by then we had two small children. We bought a pre-cut. Three-bedroom pre-cut from a friend. They didn’t want the house, but if they had just moved into the house that they were going to buy, they would have had to remove all of the improvements that they’d put into the house, which included the wall-to-wall carpeting, drapes, electrical for a dryer, a fenced-in backyard. All of that would have had to have been removed. And they would have lost all of that investment. So they bought the house and sold it immediately to us at a slightly higher price to accommodate for their investments. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: How would you describe Richland in the ‘50s? I know it was a government town, still, when you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: It was government town, yeah. Everything. The schools were—GE ran it all for the government. Police department, schools—just about all of the—anything that had to do with the town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And did that change significantly when it sort of became its own city, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: It was very gradual. They started selling the houses—we became a town in October of ’57? ’57. And the houses were being sold in ’58. Early ’58, we bought our house on Smith. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I know one of the events from the community happenings or things was when President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Were you here then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: ’63, we were not. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, had you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: We had left. Took a while to wander around to Idaho and Washington, but kept coming closer and closer, and finally said, we got to go home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: You talked about having to get a—well, you thought you had to get your Q clearance, then didn’t have to get a Q clearance. What was security like at Hanford at the time? Would that impact your work—I mean you were working in classified libraries, so that part-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. You could get into—up to the 300 Area. But there was a barrier there. You couldn’t go through the barrier without a clearance. You had to have at least a Q clearance—or not a Q clearance, a Nil clearance is what they called it, was the beginning clearance. But then to get into the 200 Area, and to get into Two West, you had to have a Q clearance. That was just—you had a badge and it had your type of clearance on it. If you were working around the areas where there was a lot of radiation or potential radiation, then you’d wear pencils, and you might wear a ring. The ring would be checked weekly, and if it showed anything, then they would check your badge. Badges were changed out, I think, on a monthly basis. I never was in a situation where I accumulated anything. You had hand and shoe counters that you had to check into the building and check out of the building—using the hand and shoe counters to make sure you weren’t carrying anything there. Because those would be the two areas that would be most apt to pick up something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So where was the classified library located? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: In the 300 Area. The building is still there. I don’t remember the building number. It was across from 319. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And you mentioned—so you got married in— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: In March of ’56. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay, and did your husband also work at Hanford then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And what area did he work in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: He was at Three West Area. The REDOX area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: We happened to be riding the same bus together. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Is that how you met? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Actually, we met at the Mart cafeteria. That building on Lee and Knight that has Sirs and Hers Barbershop and had a gun shop in there. But at that time it was a 24-hour cafeteria. There was a drugstore in part of it. And there was a jewelry store up front and a little lounge area, the Evergreen Lounge, in the back. We’d just—I’d just gotten off of my first day of swing shift. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: And he had just gotten off work. We were in there having coffee. The girl I was with knew him, and knew the other fellow that he was with. But then I discovered that we rode the same bus. Or, rather, I made sure we rode the same bus. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So how was Hanford as a place to work, then? I know you talked about not really being able to work as a chemist [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, I don’t think it was any different than working anywhere else at that time. Because there were restrictions everywhere. My original plan when going to college—I wanted to be a veterinarian. And after one year of pre-vet being the only girl in the School of Agriculture, I was told there was no way in hell that a woman would be accepted into the School— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: --of Veterinary Science. And that I needed to choose something else. So, I went into chemistry, which is another love that I had. I was one of two women—first two that had graduated in chemistry in five years from the University of Idaho. And now, you know what percentage of women are. Far more women than men. And the same veterinary school now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> [PHONE CHIMES] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Sorry about that. Talking about Richland, I was going to ask you one other question about the town. In terms of entertainment or things to do for fun, what was there in the area in 1955, ’56? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, pretty much the same things that we have now. The Richland Players was a movie house at that time. The roller skating rink was there. We could ride horses—we could rent horses out on Van Giesen. Boating. Pretty much the same mix of things that we have now. At that time, we had the symphony, we had Richland Players, although they were having their plays in the schools at that time. But those were the things—and bowling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So when did you move away from Richland, and when did you come back then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh. We left in ’58, ’59. We left in ’59—June of ’59. And we came back for good in ’71. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Had the place changed a lot in that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Grown! Yes. Not so much Richland. Although it was beginning to grow. But the areas between Richland and Kennewick that used to be grapevines and all kinds of farmland where Columbia Center was getting started and it just—I didn’t know my way around. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Are there any things I haven’t asked you, or anything you’d like to talk about that you haven’t had a chance to talk about yet, in terms of your work at Hanford, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: At Hanford? Of the early years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I don’t know. I enjoyed it very much. It was very mentally stimulating. And even the recreational things that were here were—because we had the symphony, we had the Richland Players. And it’s good to see that they are growing. If we’d only get our performing arts center. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I’m with you on that. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: We’re with you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: And they’re saying 20, 30 years, and I don’t have that many years left, I’m afraid. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us come to your home and interview you, talk to you. I appreciate your sharing your experiences with us very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, it’s been kind of interesting, thinking back to those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: I had a quick question, comment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: So when you were in the labs— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: What would you do? What were you doing in, like the PUREX or the—what sort of thing would you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh. Well, the laboratory was an analytical lab. And they were divided into hot sections and cold sections. The hot section would receive the really radioactive materials that had to be handled in big glass-enclosed, with lead—a glass so wide. But I was never involved in that real high level. By the time I got things, it was down to the very low level radioactive materials that we could handle in a hood with ventilation. We wore just a lab coat. I’m trying to think if we even, in those days—I don’t think even at REDOX that I was involved with anything higher than just very low level materials. And we would separate out the plutonium or the uranium out of the fraction that we got, and would pipette it onto steel planchets. Little steel discs. And then the discs would go downstairs to the counting lab, and would be put into the counting lab and they would determine how many counts per minute were coming off of that. That would tell them the amount of radiation that there was, the amount of material that there was in that. We did everything in duplicates and triplicates, to make sure that we hadn’t made a mistake. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Most everything was done triplicates. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: So you didn’t work in the hot cells because of gender? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No, no. I didn’t work in the hot cells because I didn’t work in the—I was never assigned to it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: But that wasn’t a gender-based— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: I was trying to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No, I don’t think it was gender-based at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: The other question I had was—so, GE and stuff, if you were five months pregnant, then that was the time to separate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: Did you have a job to come back to, or that was terminated? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: [LAUGHTER] You had a job to come back to if there was a job available. That was part of the reasoning, they said, oh, that going into the classified laboratory was perfect for you, because there’ll always be a job available. Little did they know that computers were coming along, and computers were going to do all the abstracting and all the bibliography. You’d punch in a question and they’d come out with all the answers of here’s the materials that we have available on that subject. So computers did away with that job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. Had your old job been available, would you have had it, or would you have had to reapply? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I would have had to reapply. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah, it wasn’t an automatic thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: You were expected, as a young married mother, to stay home with your children. At least until they got into school. That wasn’t to say that there weren’t people who went back to work right away. But it was not the usual thing. Of course, I wanted to be able to stay home with the kids. By the time I had three, I had to go to work. [LAUGHTER] By that time, I started looking around and thinking, well, what can I do? I can go back to school and get a job as a teacher. So I got my teaching degree. And I taught school for five years until we decided we got to go home, we got to come back here to Richland. And that’s when I got back into the chemistry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: All right, well, thank you again very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: Thanks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I really appreciate your time and letting us come in here. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man one: Okay. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:30:46 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 223 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 200 Area Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site Sally Slate passed away on July 26, 2017. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sally Slate Description An account of the resource An interview with Sally Slate conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/5/2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 200 Area 300 Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9868b23ec896cee8f1bd7b5406cbcb37.jpg 943e003304bc16627b626299707171f6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F818a1b8ac4e1d8e8126ec135ee171497.mp4 01a5d6cb8e7cbb12aaaaf554dc00d91c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald Kathren Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Northwest Public Television | Kathren_Ronald </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Ron Kathren: My name is Ron Kathren. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: All right. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on the campus of Washington State University. And today's date is July 30th of 2013. So we’re going to start by, Ron, just having you talk about when you first arrived in Tri-Cities, when you came to Hanford, how that came about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I came to the Tri-Cities the first time to a scientific meeting, I think it was 1963. There wasn't much here then, but for some reason I rather fell in love with the place. Subsequently, I acquired a wife who was a native Washingtonian. And I remember telling her how I liked this part of the state. She's from the other side of the mountains, so she was used to the lush green forests and what-have-you. But one thing led to another--do you want the long story, Bob? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Yeah, go for the long story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: One of the people from Battelle came down to visit. This was common in those days. I was working at what's now Lawrence Livermore National Lab. And he came down to visit me. We did these technical exchanges. And he spent two days. He also had a good friend that he was visiting over at Stanford. And he actually stayed at my home. Well, I couldn't figure out why he was there. [LAUGHTER] And I finally asked him, Harold, what the devil are you doing here? And he really didn't want to say. And the reason was the Atomic Energy Commission in those days, the predecessor to the Department of Energy, had kind of an unwritten rule that one contractor or one lab was not supposed to steal people from another lab. And Harold just finally opened up and he said, well, I'm here to hire you. [LAUGHTER] And I was floored because I had wanted to get up to Hanford. Part of the reason was the type of work they were doing here was really relevant to my interests and what I had been doing at Livermore. And it seemed to be a more, shall I say, happy climate, morale-wise. And so in 1967, in July of ‘67, we moved to Richland. My wife was very pregnant. And we now have three generations of the Kathren family here in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And so what sort of work were you doing at Livermore? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I was doing health physics. I was actually in charge of the calibration--radiological calibration lab there. And we used film badges in those days. And the film dosimetry group. So had other responsibilities too, but those were my main responsibilities there. And by the way I'll just mention this, one of the things that really intrigued me—we had done an intra-comparison of film badges and calibrations for plutonium, which was of interest. When I say “we,” we had done it with Hanford, Los Alamos, and Livermore. Because there was some question about how well we were measuring the very low energy photons--that are actually x-rays--that are associated with the decay of plutonium. And as it turned out, Los Alamos and Livermore were right on target. Hanford, which I would have expected to be the one to match, was quite a large percentage different from our results. And when I got up here, that was one of the things that I figured out. And that's a long story we won't go into. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So you came in ‘67? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Came in July of ‘67. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And who was the primary contractor at that time? Was that who you were working for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: It was Battelle. There were actually three contractors. What they had done in 1965 was to diversify the site. It had all been General Electric. And they wanted to make this into a more normal community, not so heavily dependent on the site. And so they put out requests for proposals. And the bidders had to put in some sort of normal activity in addition to running the site. Battelle won the contract for the research labs. And their promise was--and they did it—to build $20 million of private research facilities. And they also had what was called a use permit, so they could use the government facilities for private research, paying a fee for this. And the government, in turn, could use the Battelle facilities for government research, paying a fee also. The other two contractors, as I recall, were Douglas United Nuclear, which was a consortium of Douglas Aircraft the United Nuclear. And they ran the reactors. Their contribution was the construction of the Donald Douglas Laboratories which are no longer extant. And among other things, they were working on the artificial heart and isotopic power sources. And the third one, I believe, was Isochem. They didn't last long. They were in the 200 Areas, the waste areas. And their idea was to take up the radioactive species in the waste areas to remove them and use them for various beneficial purposes. You can use, for example, oh, say, cobalt-60. You can take that out of the waste and concentrate it and then you can give high radiation doses to certain kinds of flooring materials--they do this now--that are injected with plastic into the wood and it strengthens them. And it makes them far more resistant to damage. Isochem didn't last long. And they were replaced by Atlantic Richfield. And Atlantic Richfield brought a risk capital venture plan. And also a cattle feedlot facility. So I got here just about the time Isochem was getting ready to go and Atlantic Richfield was getting ready to come in. I'm going to comment quickly about Atlantic Richfield and their risk capital. I got the great idea that the area here is perfect for growing walnuts. I had been living in Walnut Creek. I lived in an old walnut orchard. I'm kind of interested in things like that. In fact, today in my dotage retirement I'm a master gardener. But the first thing I had to do was to convince the county ag agent that this area was suitable for growing walnuts. And I remember he was insistent that it just couldn't happen here. That the frosts were too early, and all kinds of other things. And I was pointing out to him all the reasons why this area was ideal. And also from an economic standpoint, the walnut orchards in California we're being cut down for subdivisions or the trees were being destroyed by a disease. I think it's called black ledge, or black--black--black--ooh oh I can't remember now. Walnut trees down in California are grafted. And at the graft, it would develop this black line and they'd die. The upper part. The part where the nuts were produced. That wouldn't happen here because the winters are sufficiently cold to prevent that disease from occurring. I think it's a viral disease. In any event, when I convinced him, I drafted up a little proposal and I went to Atlantic Richfield's risk capital thing and pointed out all the merits of this. Walnut trees don't need a lot of care. You don't prune them heavily the way you do grapes or apples. They could be flood irrigated a couple times a year, so you didn't need extensive irrigation systems. Harvesting is really fairly easy. One of the ways to do is just put a big net under the tree and come along with a shaker and shake the tree and all the nuts drop, and you gather them up. And to be economically sound, you had to have, I figured, maybe 100 to 200 acres. Because they have to be washed and dried afterwards. But you didn’t need—it was not labor intensive. And Atlantic Richfield, I remember the guy telling me, well, that's a super idea you've got. And can even be done with college students primarily. But the problem is it's not labor intensive enough. And we want to create jobs. So that's a long story, but that gives you some feeling. But I really, we did by the way, my father-in-law brought two walnut trees, volunteers, from our home in Walnut Creek. Kept them in coffee cans for, I think, about two years. And we built our house here and I planted them. Then they just did wonderfully. So sorry to get off on a tangent here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: That’s all right. So when you first arrived and started working at Battelle, what sorts of things were you working on initially? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I was hired in as the Manager of External Dosimetry. And external dosimetry maintained and calibrated all the portable radiation monitoring instruments used on the site. It was a site wide function. And one of my chief responsibilities was to update the pool of instruments. I think they had some 1,600 instruments. Most of them were pretty old. I think every one of them was home built. They didn't go commercial. And one of my ideas was to go commercial. And I started to build the calibration lab, which now Battelle has—people who took it after me really did a fine job. One of them was Jack Selby, who just passed away and who we mentioned earlier. His group really built it into a—not that it wasn't under me of course, but a first class standards laboratory for radiological calibrations. And also we oversaw the contractor that did the dosimetry, the film badges for the site, and responded to any potential over-exposures from external radiation. That was basically what my initial job here was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And how long did you do that sort of work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I think three years I was in that job. And then Battelle had a reorganization, and I—it was kind of messy, but I chose to stay with my boss. And he had a radiological group that included the dosimetry and so on. But I stayed with them and it did many other assignments. A whole variety of things. I was kind of his go-to-it guy. He was once asked by another manager, how do you manage Ron? And he looked at the guy and said, you don't. [LAUGHTER] He said, you just let him go and do his thing. And if he gets too far down the road you don't want him on, you just jerk him back. [LAUGHTER] But he was really one of the finest people I've ever known. And very good manager. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And who was this? What was his name? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: This was Harold Larson. And Harold was somewhat older than me. And well, we just fit together. For many years later, I was his staff assistant and got all these problems to solve. And it was great fun. Is was a challenge. And you never knew what was going to happen. One of the things we did--that fits in with the history scheme—there were what were called service assessment dollars. All the contractors got assessed. A certain amount—percentage in their contracts to pay for plant-wide services. These included the centralized dosimetry records, and the calibrations group, et cetera. After this organization change, and I was Harold's staff assistant, we used to go out and visit our clients, our customers, every month or maybe every three weeks. Well, they're out in the 200 and 100 Areas. And what we'd usually do is we'd take a car and our lunch and go out and visit one in the morning and then one in the afternoon. And in between, we'd go eat our lunch. And sometimes we'd go to the old Hanford town site. One day we were there—and this shows you how Harold thinks—because he was very quick. So here are a couple of guys in suits—coats and ties anyway—wandering around the old Hanford site, which was not supposed to be open as such. We had badges and our badges permitted us in that area. But up drives a security vehicle. And the guy leaps out it comes up and looks at us. And if you're going to be out there, you probably should be wearing some kind of coveralls or what-have-you. [LAUGHTER] He looks at us and he says, what are you guys doing here? And Harold without missing a microsecond responded, oh, we're out checking our environmental monitoring program. We also had responsibility for the plant-wide environmental monitoring program. And that just was the end of that. But if it had been I to whom that question was posed, I'd probably still be in jail. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So let’s--how long then did you work for Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I worked for Battelle for roughly five years. They had been closing down reactors, there was a lot of unemployment, a lot of people job hunting. Not I. But I had another problem. And that problem was with one of my children who needed special medical care and dental care. I like small towns. In fact, that was one of the real appeals to coming to Richland. But small towns have--and in those days it was really bad--a lack of certain amenities that the big cities have. And at the time there were, I think, two pediatricians in town. One was incompetent and the other was an alcoholic. And here was a child that really needed a lot of—and I didn't—I could see us making lots of trips to Children's Hospital in Seattle. It was very worrying for my wife, by the way. And also Battelle's medical plan at the time had a $25,000 lifetime limit, which they probably would have extended, but we already had quite a bit into that. So, there was a position that came up in Portland working in industry and I jumped on that. It was—I couldn't wait to get back here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And at what point did you come back, then, to Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: We came back six years later. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So it would have been what year, about, roughly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: ‘78. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: ‘78. And did you come back working at Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I came back to Battelle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And what sort of position or job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I was a staff scientist and Harold Larson's staff assistant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And how long did you, at that point then, remain with Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Well, that's an interesting question. I say it's interesting because I got involved in--I don't know how—but by chance, something I'd always wanted to do. And that was to get involved with the transuranium and uranium registries. And I was doing that. And other program I had was the environmental dose overview for the site. And Battelle had another organization change. I used to joke that Battelle had an organization change, a major change, every other year. And a minor change in every month it didn't have an R in it. So they had this change, and Harold lost the department in a consolidation and so on. And the new department manager was not really a very good manager. And I think he wanted to get rid of all of a people he had inherited from Harold. I being one of them. And I'm on his staff. So that wasn't going the greatest. And working for the registries, that's a different contractor. That's the medical contractor, medical records. And they, for obvious reasons, did not want the medical records removed from their building. You know, there are privacy questions. Even in those days there were serious privacy concerns. And he basically ordered me to stop going over there and bring the things I needed back. Couldn't do it. So I wandered into the President of the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation and basically said, you're paying Battelle so much a year for my time--and I think I was half-time. This might have been only 40%--I said, how would you like me full time for the same money? And how are you going to do that? I said, well, I'll just transfer over here. And I did. I worked out what they call a termination for transfer. So I kept my seniority and so on and went over there. And that was great. That was really outstanding. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Do you want to explain what the uranium registry and transuranium registries are? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Okay, how many hours do we have? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Quickly, I guess. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Back in the late '60s--well, let me start this way--Plutonium is an anthropogenic element. It's manmade if I can use the politically incorrect terminology that everybody still understands. And so our experience with it has come from the Manhattan District, largely. It's a highly radiotoxic element, but there's no animal data except for what was done in the Manhattan District. But animals aren't humans and you need human data. Human information. And what's going to happen to these workers? So they created, in I think it was 1968, the National Plutonium Registry to study plutonium in people. And this was not the usual epidemiologic type study. It was a post mortem study where people in advance of death volunteered to permit an autopsy. Or in some cases a whole body donation. And those tissues would be analyzed then for plutonium. So that we could determine where it went in the body, where it deposited, how long it stayed there, if you got enough data, whether there were any biological effects that you could attribute to it. In other words, we did what are called biokinetics, how it moved through the body. And the dosimetry, et cetera. Well, that was fascinating to me. And I had always wanted to work in that. Well, in the fullness of time, the plutonium registry expanded to other heavy elements including americium. And then a separate parallel uranium registry was created. It's interesting to note that although humans have known about uranium for 200 years, until the Kosovo War, there was interest, there were studies, but there wasn't the concern. Because uranium, always radioactive, natural uranium and depleted uranium are a greater hazard from their chemical toxicity than from their radiotoxicity. So there were these two parallel registries. And ultimately they combined into one. And I guess, does that answer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be good for you to explain it-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: --for people who might want to watch this, yeah. So you've got involved in that. And at some point you also starting teaching at WSU Tri-Cities, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I taught my first class on this campus in 1970. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And how did that happen? How did you get involved teaching here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: When I came up here, I had been teaching at a community college at night. I'd set up a program in radiation technology and had taught in that community college in California. I like to teach. In fact, I daresay that my happiest hours have been spent in the classroom, providing I have a tall enough lectern so I can duck down when they throw things. But in all seriousness, that is really what I like to do. So I came here and right off the bat, they had a radiation technology program at the local community college. And I taught in that for a year. And then this was--the predecessor to WSU Tri-Cities, was the Joint Center for Graduate Study. And I offered to teach a refresher course for individuals who are going to be sitting for the Health Physics Certification Exam. There's a board certification exam. And sure, why not? That was my first course. The old Joint Center at that time had three university sponsors—Oregon State, Washington State, and University of Washington. And that was done through the University of Washington. And then later I was asked to be a member of the radiological sciences faculty of the University of Washington. Something I did part-time at night. A lot of us did. There were more than 100 adjuncts--UW called them affiliates, but it's the same difference. And so I do that for many years. But a lot of machinations and organization changes. And the perception of people who are affected is far different than the perception of those who make changes [LAUGHTER] as you probably—all you have all found out, I'm sure, in life. Ultimately, the branch campus was created. By that time I had not only an affiliate professorship at U of W, but I also had an adjunct appointment in environmental sciences here. And without going into too much detail, we converted the USTUR, the registry's contract, into a grant and brought it to WSU. This was in ‘92. The official day was Valentine's Day of ‘92, which was a Sunday. But we brought over $3.76 million on a three year grant. And the registries had been subject to a lot of criticism from activist groups. Statements like--and I want to make a point here, so bear with me--these activist groups made all kinds of accusations like body snatchers, et cetera. There's one person in particular, a newspaper reporter, and she was just gung ho. This was a time of real ferment and a lot of anti-nuclear activity. Anyway, we moved them over and I don't think we'd been over here for more than two or three weeks. I had an office in the other building and a secretary. And one day the phone rings and it's some guy from, I think it was the Seattle P.I., but he was from a newspaper in Seattle. This was not extraordinary for me. I have had a lot of dealings with the press. But anyway, he said something about he wanted to know about the registries and about our body snatching. And I said, body snatching? I said, oh, the university wouldn't permit that. And he said, university? What university? I said, Washington State University. The registries are part of WSU. And his words were, oh, well, I guess there's no story then. And he hung up. I never even got the guy's name. [LAUGHTER] So I point this out--you can't always see it face value, things in the newspaper or what-have-you, and realize that you're getting the full story, because one minute we were body snatchers and the next minute, oh, there's no story. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So how long, then, were you connected with running the transuranium registry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Retired in 1999. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And so during your time at Hanford, the transuranium registry and so forth, what were your list of some of the most rewarding aspect of the work you were doing? And what was maybe some of the more challenging aspects of what you were doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Well, this may not be the answer you're seeking, but if you ask me what the most rewarding aspect of my career was--and I've often said I would not swap careers with anybody else. I just had a lot of frustrations, a lot of difficulties--But they’re over here and they're far outweighed by the pleasures. And my greatest was with the students and with teaching. I look back, a lot of my former students wandering around, and I look back on them and the successes that many of them had. I presume you get the same kinds of feelings, Bob, when you see what they do. And I'd think, who are my all-time best students? Well, there's one that--maybe yes, maybe no--was the all-time best--how do you rate the best? But she was certainly one of the top three. And she's now the Chairman of the Nuclear Engineering Program at Oregon State. Another one is one of the Assistant Directors, or whatever, at Battelle. And he's done incredibly well. The third one was a lady that I had known. And when we were in Portland I had association with Reed College. I don't know if you've ever heard of--okay. In any event, she was a big, tall gal. And I'm not very tall, as you know. And she must have weighed at least 220 pounds. Very large, very large woman. And I remembered telling her one day, Ellen, you are arguably my best student. But unarguably my most obnoxious. She was from New Jersey and you can figure--I loved her. I—I might breakup when I tell you this, [EMOTIONAL] but I really did love her. And I'd see her at scientific meetings and she'd run up to me and put her arms around me and it's just great. She came here and got a job on-site. She's a good teacher. She's a great teacher. I remember she's teaching at the community college somewhere in the East, in New Jersey. And that dried up and she got a job out here. And here she was an absolutely brilliant lady. She wasn't all that difficult. You just had to understand her. But she was just wonderful in her technical knowledge and in her drive to get things done. And just wonderful. But she had one thing that was a problem. She got stuck in training because she was a woman. And that's what you did in those days with women and minorities. It's like, they were stuck. Showcased. She wanted to get out and get her hands dirty. No way. So she started looking for another job and she finally found one at University of Arizona. And it was great. She was the radiation safety officer, she also had a faculty appointment, and she and I were actually very close. And we had worked--we were planning to give a one week, special, short course. And we worked out the outline. And we were going to do this the next summer at the Health Physics meeting. In early December I got a phone call from somebody I didn't know, who was her department head, who said that she died. She had valley fever, compromised immune system, 41 years old. And when she knew she was dying, she told him, when she died to please call her mother and me. Dad was dead. That's the kind of thing that—and in other ways, you touch lives. And hopefully you touch them in a beneficial way. Did a lot other things in my career that I had great fun with in the teaching, the registries. That was terrific. I think those were the most productive years of my career. Earlier on, I was involved with radiological measurements, calibrations, and so on. And trying to make our measurements better dose-wise. But I did a whole bunch of things. Even the years I spent in industry at the utility—and boy, did they have a different philosophy--you learn a lot. And I just feel as if I've made a contribution. I've certainly been satisfied. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: One thing I want to ask you about is your involvement with the Glenn Seaborg papers project. How did that come about? How did you get involved in it and that sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I grew up in Los Angeles. And I remember taking high school chemistry and learning about the heavy elements. And I was just fascinated by these. So in the back of my mind that was always there. Many, many years later I became the President of the Health Physics Society. One of my colleagues, good friends at the University of Utah, actually said something about, we ought to invite Glenn Seaborg to talk about plutonium. He was a plutonium chemist, this guy. [LAUGHTER] Well, I also had another good friend who had worked with Glenn at the Met Lab. And he said, well, I can just call Glenn. That impressed me quite a bit because Glenn Seaborg, of course, a Nobel Prize winner, former Chancellor at University of California, and worked with [INAUDIBLE]. Just a towering figure. Well doggone if I didn't talk to Glenn and invite him down and he agreed. So I had seen he had written—he was a diarist--and he'd written these diaries for the World War II that were published as internal documents from the Lawrence Berkeley Lab. And I thought, jeez these are terrific. This would make a great book. And edit it, and so on, and identify people. But anyway, he came down to the Health Physics meeting. I had one night free and I set up a reception for him. Just a private reception. And by the way, the guest book from that reception I think I've donated to the archives here. Glenn was just the most humble person. He was great. And I asked him about doing that book. He said, what a wonderful idea. Why don't you do it? [LAUGHTER] So we did. I enlisted the aid of a real historian; that was Jerry Gough. Jerry enlisted the aid of one of his graduate students; that was Gary Benefiel. And we edited and annotated with over 700 biographical sketches. Identified just about everybody in the Section C-1, I think it was, the one that did the plutonium work. Glenn gave it the title. I said, what do you think we ought to call this? Well, The Plutonium Story, of course. But he was great and we had a lot of interfaces after that. I also wanted to—another thing he wrote that I was planning on doing something similar with, but unfortunately Glenn died before that could be done. Does that answer that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: Yeah, yeah it does. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: If you--one quick thing about Seaborg. He came to the meeting, this annual meeting of the Health and Physics Society. I hadn't met him yet. And he's standing in one of the lecture rooms. And he's up on the dais and I'm with this friend of mine who had worked with him. And we walk in and Glenn looks up and my friend says, hi, Glenn! And Glenn looks at him, hi, by first name, you know. And it was just—he's just one of the guys. I've never met anybody—I’ve met, in my day, I've known three Nobel Prize winners. They're all different. One quick story about another one. I was at a meeting in San Francisco and I was doing some work on carbon. And I asked this individual, we were chatting on something about carbon. She's says, oh, I got a big file on it. Why don't you give me your card and I'll send you a paper on that. Okay. So, I gave the individual my card. And about ten days after the meeting, I got a package in the mail. All—I guess the entire file on radiocarbon had been put in there, including a paper that I myself had written. [LAUGHTER] It was apparently unlike Glenn. It was just, well, I'll just send him everything and get him off my back. Glenn would have sat down and well, let's see. What is it you want and how can we best accommodate you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So when was it that you first met Glenn? When was it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Oh gosh, I was Society President I think ‘89 or ‘90, somewhere around there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: And so you were very actively involved in the Health Physics Society. How long have you been involved in Health Physics Society? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Since 1960. I'm a life member, so they can't get rid of me yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And then I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the Parker Foundation? Explain what that is and how that came about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Herb Parker was an interesting person. He was a medical physicist initially. And he was from England, Manchester. Happens my grandmother was for Manchester, but that's neither here nor there. And Herb, in the 1930s, developed along with a physician—radiologist named Ralston Patterson, a technique for doing radium dosimetry. Radium was the only radioactive material. And it was widely used particularly for uterine and cervical cancers. And doing the dosimetry you have to calculate the doses based on the shapes. If they're a needle or some other geometry, calculations can be very difficult. But it's important to know the doses obviously, because you're destroying a cancer, hopefully. And the Patterson-Parker techniques evolved from that. Herb came here in the 1930s. He went to Seattle in the late 1930s to work on what were then called super voltage x-rays, very high energy x-rays. And of course, now we have a lot of high energy stuff which is useful at treating cancer—certain cancers. More useful than and radium. And he went to work for the Manhattan District first at Oak Ridge and was basically hand-picked to come here because of his abilities. Herb was an interesting person. He did not suffer fools gladly. In fact, he did not suffer fools at all. [LAUGHTER] He did a lot of things. He was the first—there was actually a unit. Well, in the old days, all we had was a unit based on air ionization called the rankine. And that worked for x and gamma rays, but it didn't work for other things, particularly, neutrons and beta rays. And Herb really came up with the concept of absorbed energy. Not ionization and air. And he created a unit that enjoyed a short lifespan. It had quantity. Quantity was energy absorbed in matter. The unit was, he called it the rep, for rankine equivalent physical. And it also got the name of the Parker. If you look at an old McGraw-Hill dictionary of science and technology, you'll see the Parker in there. And that later evolved into a more useful kind of thing. It didn't change the basic concept, but he did that. And he set up the program here. Which was remarkable, because we had no real experience with plutonium. Zero. So to shorten that up, Herb was actually the head of the Hanford Laboratories. Under General Electric, the Hanford Laboratories were a research group and they were world famous. When Battelle came in, Hanford Laboratory ceased to exist. Herb was retained as a consultant to Battelle. And ultimately, he passed away. I think in ‘83 or thereabouts. Bill Bair, who you're going to interview I'm sure, had worked closely with Herb. Bill is a radiation biologist and he was manager of the biology department. Or maybe the Life Sciences Center at the time. But anyway, he got Battelle and the Parker family to kick some dollars and start a Parker Foundation, the idea being to give a lecture, public lecture, once a year. And it has since now evolved. It's a separate nonprofit, but tied to WSU. We turned over all our assets to WSU, because Battelle had lost interest in supporting them. Which is understandable, I'm not faulting Battelle for this. They were very generous when they started it. And we promote education, give a couple scholarships out of the endowment, and still try to have that lecture. That lecture was to honor some scientists and to promote public understanding. And we also are interested in history. And so, this should interest you most as an historian, the Parker Foundation will be supporting the RASC collection, or maybe not dollar-wise in any large amount, but that's one of their things. And you should come to one of our meetings, Bob. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] So is there any topic we haven't touched on yet in terms of either your Battelle transuranium registry, anything along those lines, that you would like to discuss? Or that you think would be important to discuss at this point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: I'll just—yeah, I’d like to comment on a couple of things. One of the reasons I wanted to come to Battelle—or, it wasn’t Battelle then, I wanted to come to Hanford was, in doing research for my thesis I kept running across these reports. They're very practical, down to earth, and just the kind of thing I like to do. [LAUGHTER] But Hanford wasn't really well known. In fact, one of my profs said, you know, you're going to go out and get a job one day. He said, you ought to go to Los Alamos or some other place, I don’t even remember. Never mentioned Hanford. Which was not extraordinary, because I had hardly heard of it myself. When I went to work for Livermore, we had a lot of plutonium there. And Hanford of course was the plutonium production place. And you naturally pick up things. And they ran this wonderful life sciences symposium. And that's when we came up. And that's when I had my first experience. And the guys from Hanford were just the kind of people that--down to earth, very nice that you could talk to. And I actually applied for a job, it was like 1966, and I didn't know the ins and outs, but the guy I talked to had just been demoted. [LAUGHTER] So, that didn't work out too well. But then a year or so later, that's when Harold Larson came up. But I really--the work that was done here was so different in a sense. The way it was done, it was more practically oriented. Another thing that it intrigued me about this place was, they not only did things differently, but in a lot of ways they were playing catch-up. In fact, maybe you should turn this off, but I'll say it anyway. After I'd been up here for a while I found that a lot of the workers were suffering from a terrible disease known as the Hanford syndrome, which was characterized by three symptoms. The first one was there will always be a government to take care of us. The second one was if it hadn't been discovered here at Hanford, it wasn't worth discovering. And that applied to all levels of things. And the third one was all change is bad. And I'm going to give you an example. It's kind of a fun example. I got a call one day when I had been here a few years and was managing the external dose group. And we bought all these portable instruments from a young engineer who had been asked to obtain what were called, cart poppies. These were not portable instruments, so I didn't have any—they were portable in a sense. They were a huge instrument in a cart. And the poppy referred to the fact that they would make popping noises when they measured alpha particles. And this was I think about 1968, or thereabouts. And he called me up and he asked, do you have the most current plans for the cart poppies? Because we're going to order some and the vendor wants the plans, obviously. And I said, oh, yeah. He said, oh good. The latest ones I can find are like 1956 or thereabouts. Maybe was earlier than that, I don't remember the exact year. And I said, well you've got them. And he was astounded. The arguments were just unbelievable, but basically it was, they worked. We won't change them. He finally ended up ordering 30 of them for $30,000 plus a copy. $1 million. I could have purchased for him, on the open market commercially, a transistorized unit that did everything the cart poppy did, better, and did a heck of a lot more also, for about $300 a copy. [LAUGHTER] But the mentality of a lot of the old timers was such that that was the way it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: So was that one of the challenges that you found then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: That was a big challenge for me. Because here I was tasked with upgrading the instrument pool. And how do you get people to change? We've always done it this way. Little things, this instrument's been proven. But we did it. We did it. And that led to--after I left that job and others took it over, they built on that. And now everything is commercial. Not that commercial is better than what you do yourself, particularly if you have a special need, but saved the government a lot of money. Saved the taxpayers a lot of money. And so that mindset has been pretty much gone. But it was really, really strong here. And I remember just one thing that I had in mind. I wanted to change the neutron monitoring instruments. Neutron monitors in those days were big heavy things. And what we used at Hanford was a device that required two separate measurements you carried—it had a handle with a big thing of polyethylene and another instrument package. And you had to take two measurements. It wasn't very good and it wasn't very accurate. The Swedes had developed an instrument we call a REM meter because it actually measured the REM, or biological dose—dose rate. And the Navy was using them. And that's what I wanted to replace these with. I got more static from my own staff. The guys won't use them, this, that and other thing. This was proven, we did it here, and it's wonderful and so on and so forth. But we put them in and now they only need one measurement. And granted, it was big and heavy, but people loved them, because you turn it on and you got a measurement. You didn't have to interpret anything. So there was a lot of resistance to change. And over the years I've thought of that. One has to be very careful. You can't come in, as some people have, well, this is the way we did where I used to work. Well, that doesn't wash. You have to really demonstrate it. Actually, I think what I did was I bought two of these Navy type instruments. Sent them out to the 100 Areas. Try these guys and see if they work. And they loved them. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: That's a great example, yeah. One of things obviously that happened was that the site at some point shifted from a focus on production to focus on clean up. Did that impact you in any ways--your work at all, or not? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Not really because I was working at the registries and on other projects that didn't involve cleanup. Although, Mount St. Helens--do you have a few minutes? Okay. The Mount St. Helens eruption was something else. It happened on a Sunday. Actually when it happened, I was in the bathroom, I think. It was in the morning. And I got up late Sunday morning. I think I was brushing my teeth actually [LAUGHTER] when I heard this tremendous bang. And I thought, jeez, my wife must have dropped something in the kitchen. So I yelled out to her and she said, oh, it was a sonic boom. We had neighborhood event, and everybody was—a potluck. And a couple hours later we were walking to the neighborhood event, it was getting dark. [LAUGHTER] There was stuff falling out--if you want some ash, I can give you some ash. But it's very, very interesting. And this will show you my relationship to Harold Larson too. We learned what happened. Well some Battelle scientist talked to a newspaper, I think the Washington Post it may have been, but he talked to a newspaper in the East. And he said that Mount St. Helens had released more radioactivity than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. Just natural radioactivity, which was not correct. Incidentally that morning, there's a lot of dust and so on, and fallout. A lot of interesting things about that that you never hear. The fallout, the lighter pieces carried further, but the fallout at the Yakima airport was very thick and heavy. They had to clear the runways—or, runway I guess. And one of the ideas proposed was to use electromagnet because the fallout contained so much iron that you could actually pick it up with a magnet. There were a lot of other things. There was also a guy who the following day got on the horn, he was driving to work, and he had picked up some ash. And when he got out to the 100 Areas where he worked, I guess he stuck on a counter and came up with the idea that was loaded with radium. Just loaded with radium. He didn't measure the radium directly, he measured the daughter products and back calculated. And that doesn't give you the right answer. He called on one of the radio stations to tell all of the people coming to work to roll up the windows in their cars. I mean this is the kind of--even scientists screw up. In any event, that and the statement of that other scientist about more radioactivity led to a lot of concern. And the President the United States was coming to Portland, I think, to give a campaign speech. And that was Jimmy Carter, by the way. Harold Larson came into my office and said, I want you call DOE right away. Air Force One has some questions. [LAUGHTER] Now that's pretty big because I'm just a little town guy. I mean, really. And I told them that there were errors made in the calculation. And that there was not a huge amount of radioactivity. We had actually pulled some of our environmental monitoring samples and they just showed the normal amount. And the soil was exactly the same as the soil around here. The concentration of radium as was in the Mount Saint Helens eruption. So these people panicked. But anyway, I got to get my oar in. And there's my claim to fame that's never been documented except on this tape, if you keep it in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUTHER] All right, well, that's probably a good place to end. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: Okay, I'm sorry. You get me wound up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: No, that's a great story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: There's a lot more that. Let me just quickly give you another piece of it. The guy that had made this pronouncement of all this radioactivity compounded the thing by saying that it was all due to radon. From the decay of radium, radon gas that had built up and created a lot of pressure and caused the explosion. That's just an impossible or very extremely unlikely scenario. We had given him our monitoring data and other things. And he wrote a paper for Science with about 40 authors and did not include any of us using all of our data. Scientists are sometimes not the most ethical and honorable people in the world either, much as I love them. But you know, think of lawyers. Occasionally the barrel has a good apple in it. But anyway, we had to do something. And you're going to interview Joe Soldat Joe and I and Dale Denham—I think you're going to interview Dale also and one other person. Anyway, we wrote a little note for Science calculating out the doses, which defused what they had done. So you wouldn't misinterpret what they had done. Get me off on ethics in science sometime and it's just— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792"> Kathren: All right. I've taken all of your time. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 200 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1963-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1965-1999 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Selby, Jack Larson, Harold Seaborg, Glenn Gough, Jerry Benefiel, Gary Parker, Herb Bair, Bill Soldat, Joe Denham, Dale Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ronald Kathren Description An account of the resource An interview with Ronald Kathren conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-9: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/7/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Richland(Wash.) Battelle(Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area Atlantic Richfield Co. Battelle (Wash.) General Electric Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fea2536d99c0a8f23ad2086c4716820d9.jpg dfebe25b106ba7d9824501dc3958b7b3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F559b622c13aa4a2e4a5248c2deebf511.mp4 34fa37d1ec79608d8bb044f01a3035c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arata, Laura Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johanson, Richard Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Johanson_Richard Camera man: Okay. Laura Arata: Are you ready to go? Camera man: Yeah. Arata: Excellent. So if I could have you start by just saying your name and then spelling your last name. Richard Johanson: My name is Richard E. Johanson. And the last name is spelled J-O-H-A-N-S-O-N. Arata: Thank you. My name is Laura Arata. It is March 5, 2014. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So Richard, I would like to start, if you could just tell us a little bit about how you came to Hanford and where you came from. Johanson: Well, my folks moved to Benton County--actually it was Prosser--in about 1930, when I was about three years old. And a year later, we moved to Benton City where they resided ever since that time. And I went to school over in Benton City. And so I'm a real native around here. Arata: Since you did have these kind of early experiences growing up here, from a fairly early time, I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about what it was like going to school here at that time. Johanson: Oh, it was fun. It's what you make it, you know. And I went to school in Benton City at Kiona-Benton. And I remember back in about 1943, when they were starting to build the Hanford project, a friend of mine, a schoolmate, who had been displaced from Hanford, and he was going to school in Benton City, also. And he says, you know, I've got a—what’s that--apple press, cider press. And he says, it is over where we used to live over at Hanford. So he said, get your car. And he said, let's go get that cider press. So we did. And they let you in over there to do that then, because we knew. It wasn't because we knew anybody. It was just the fact that, at that point, they didn't have it locked up. And you didn't have to have a badge to get in. Arata: Do you have any memories, then, of Richland or White Bluffs or any of those communities? Johanson: Oh yeah. In fact, I played basketball in the school building in White Bluffs. It's just a shell of a building now, I think. But we played basketball there and rode the bus from Benton City to White Bluffs. And we played at Hanford, because they had a separate high school. And it was all exciting for us. I remember stopping in at one of the stores getting stuff. We rode the bus out. And then earlier, it had to be in the late '30s, they used to have boat races over at Hanford, just down on the river. And they were outboard boats. The boats were the pumpkin seed-type race boats. And I remember going with my folks over to the races. And that had to have been probably in the early '30s. Because we went to the Horn Rapids and then the road continued on out as it does now. But I think then it was a gravel road out to Hanford. Arata: Do you have any particular memories of the boat races? We hear references to them a lot. And I very rarely meet someone who actually witnessed them. Johanson: Well, there were quite a few boats and probably 15 or 20 boats at least. And they had the old outboard Evinrude type engines on them. And they would go 60, 70 miles an hour. But it was exciting, especially for a nine-year-old. Arata: I bet. And would they have concessions and things down there? Johanson: Oh, yeah, they had the usual stuff, hamburgers and so on. Arata: So that was a full day for you, obviously, the boat races. Johanson: Oh yeah, it was a big day's trip. Arata: I'm curious. We've heard a couple references to a circus actually coming to that area. Did you see that? Johanson: I never saw a circus out there. But I remember going to a circus when I was small. And I think we went to Walla Walla to the circus. And that makes a big impression on young mind. Arata: Hm. So many questions, where to go next? Could you talk a little bit about where you lived, your parents' property, for example, your housing situation while you were growing up? Johanson: We didn't have any housing problem, because we lived on a farm. My dad had 70 acres. He was on the Benton County PUD board. And he was on the board of the WPPSS, which is now called Energy Northwest, and was instrumental in getting some of that stuff going. Arata: So you had electricity then and that sort of thing in your house? Johanson: Well, the first house we lived in, in Benton City, we didn't have electricity. We had a telephone but no electricity. We had a well. I remember, one time, my brother, older brother, Bob, was playing. He had some soap. And he put it in the old cook stove in the little holes were you lift the lid off. And it was boiling in there. And he thought that was a great funny deal. But it caught fire. And the fire spread, and it was going up the curtains. My dad came running in, and he grabbed a bucket of water that we kept there for drinking. And he threw it all over the fire and put it out. That was a little bit scary. Arata: Lucky save for dad. Johanson: Yeah. Arata: Before I forget, do you have any particular memories of the store at White Bluffs, like what sorts of things you'd stop there and purchase? Johanson: Well, I think it was a store and a service station, kind of like the convenience stores they have now. But it was just a normal, small grocery store. And that's about all I remember about that. But the bus would stop there. And the kids would go in and get pop and whatever. Arata: So I understand you started working at Hanford. Could you talk a little bit about when you started working at Hanford? Johanson: I went to work out there, actually, in '48. I was in the Navy. And I got out of the Navy in '46, 1946. And I worked a year helping my dad out on the ranch. And then I decided I would strike out and work at the big Hanford project, which was exciting for young guys. And I worked there several years. And I worked there as a radiation time keeper, in the tank farms, through '48, '49 and '50 and end of '51 and '52. And my job was to keep track of how much time the workers spent in a hot zone. I'd get the readings from the health instrument man and calculate how long they could spend at that job. Sometimes it was only 10 or 12 minutes before they got a full dose of the maximum radiation they were allowed. And at that time, we were opening up the tops of the tanks. And they were going to install pump pits. And then they were also putting in pipe trenches and stainless pipe, large 8, 10 inch diameter piping. And the idea, at that time, as I understood it, was for reprocessing, which they eventually decided not to do, under one of our presidents, decided not to do reprocessing. But that was in 1950, '51. And we had to use jackhammers to open up to the top of the tank. And the workers, with the jackhammers, had to have jackhammer bits that were about 18 feet long. Because that would let the operator of the jackhammer stay back away from the open pit. And he can work longer that way. And the same way when they'd jackhammer the concrete. And it fell down into the tanks, obviously. And then they had--of course, there was rebar in those, too. So they had put a cutting torch on the end of long pole, probably between 15 and 18 feet long, so they could cut the rebar to open the tanks up. And in cutting the rebar, it would fall down in there, too. So a lot of those chunks of concrete are probably still there. And that was 60 some years ago. Arata: Did you have any other jobs at Hanford after that time? Johanson: Well, I worked for a while in the cannery, where they canned the uranium. And I was in the 300 area, just north, not too far here, probably a half mile from here. And that entailed--they would bring their uranium in, in long rods, about an inch and half in diameter in boxcars. And then they would come into--lathe operators, operating a lathe. And they would turn down the outer part of the rod. And then they would come in certain lengths to be canned in aluminum cladding. And so we were working there at that job for a while. And it was interesting, the uranium shavings from the lathe would fall down, and they'd catch on fire, kind of like magnesium does. So they had to keep putting out the fires of the burning uranium shavings. Arata: And how long did you work there at 300? Johanson: Not very long. It was just a few weeks I think. We had to wear all kinds of protective clothing. And it was so hot in there, they had an air conditioning tube coming down to each worker. So I didn't care for that. Arata: And what did you do after that? Johanson: Pardon? Arata: What did you do after that? Johanson: Well, I got into ironworking for a while. And I worked out there as an ironworker and worked there about a year as an ironworker in the tank farm areas. And then I went down to McNary Dam and went to work down there for the final push on getting McNary Dam finished. And then in '53, I also worked on the missile bases out in the area and over in Wahluke Slope, across the river from Hanford. And it was the Nike missiles that we were installing at that time. And that was before I went to McNary. And then after that, then I bunched it all and went into the insurance business. [LAUGHTER] So I was in the insurance business for the next 20 years or more, with various--a couple of companies. I was a division manager in Wenatchee for a number of years. And then I was with the superintendent of agencies for a company out of Salem, Oregon. And after that, I went into the construction business in the '70s and had a construction company, built maybe 100-and-some houses around here. Arata: So of your time working at Hanford, could you describe kind of a typical day or anything that stands out? Johanson: Well, it depends whether it was a cold day or a warm day. Some days, we had a shack that we stayed in when we weren't out actually on the job. And our downtime, we would have to spend in the shack, because they didn't want you wandering around the project. So we would do that. And then we'd go out do the work we were doing. When I was working as an ironworker, I worked in construction of the pipe trenches and so and the tanks. And if it was cold weather, we really hung around the stove. And then we'd eat lunch in there also. And when we went in there and left, we had, what they called, I think, a fivefold counter. You'd put your hands in and your feet. And it would count to see if you had any radiation or contamination of any kind. And once in a while, you'd have some. And they had a shower there where they'd have to shower people down if they had quite a bit of contamination. And I know there were several instances where they got quite a bit on them, and they had to work with them for a long time to get all the radiation, the contamination off. Arata: Were there any ways that sort of the security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Johanson: Well, we were always told to keep our mouths shut, which we didn't know what they were building out there in the '40s anyway. But some people, they didn't have any idea. They said, well, there's so much sand out there, they're making sandpaper. [LAUGHTER] And then another little kid said, well, he said, I think they're making toilet paper, because my dad brings a couple rolls home every night. [LAUGHTER] So nobody knew what they were making, so they had to imagine what it might be. Arata: How, overall, was Hanford as a place to work? Was there anything particularly rewarding or particularly-- Johanson: Well, it was rewarding in the fact that it was extremely interesting. And it was a huge job, with 50,000 workers back in the middle '40s. And while that was going on, I was in the Navy over in the Pacific somewhere, there in the Philippines and Okinawa and Shanghai, China, and so on. Arata: Sounds like maybe you could talk, just briefly, about having had that experience of being part of the war and the war effort against Japan. How did you feel when you found out it was our plutonium, from this area, that built that bomb? Johanson: Well, everybody was extremely elated to find out that our project out there had helped end the war. And because it was in the first atomic explosion, in, well, New Mexico, I guess it was, wasn't it? Yeah, and it was also the Nagasaki atomic bomb. But you couldn't help but feel some real distress over the fact of how many people it killed. And it was a very sobering thought. On the other hand, if we hadn't of used them, they would have probably cost a million lives of the Japanese and the Americans, because they weren't going to give up. And that would've been the battle to the bitter end. So I was down in the South Pacific somewhere when they dropped the bombs. And so we were kind of thankful, because we were going to be heading up there to try and finish it off. The ship, you may remember hearing about it, who was the USS Indianapolis, a cruiser, and they had taken one of the atomic bombs to--was it Tinian, I think. And it was secret journey, naturally. And they got torpedoed and sunk. It wasn't probably about 500 miles from where we were in the South Pacific. And there was about, I think, 800 of them didn't survive. And they couldn't even get rescued, because they were on a secret journey, and nobody knew where they were, not many people. And it was pretty grim. And from there, we went up to Okinawa. We were up there for a while. And it was a pretty bad spot there. Most of the fighting was over. It was over then when I went up there. And I had a friend who was up to the mountains. I don't know what they were doing up there. But he was a corpsman in the Navy. But he was up there with some Marines. And they were living in tents up in the mountains, in the hills. And it sounds pretty gross, but they would go out, every day. And the war was over. It was actually over. They'd go out everyday and hunt Japs. And this guy, he told me, he says, it's just like hunting jackrabbits at home. [LAUGHTER] So it was pretty sobering also. Because they were--you know, the Japanese, a lot of them thought the war was still on. And they didn't know that it was over. And you couldn't blame them. They were trying to do their job. Oh, that was really a sad situation. And we were anchored out of a bay there. There was typhoon showed up. We put up out to sea, and we were three days. That typhoon kept going just for three days. In the daytime, it was almost like nighttime. And there were a couple hundred small craft that didn't make it, little mine sweepers and things. People talk about waves that are 100 feet high? There really are. But to get back to working out at Hanford, there were a lot of people. We had people that we let them put their trailers in our backyard, because they didn't have any place to stay. And they just had little camp trailers. Rather than stay in the big trailer court at out Hanford, they preferred to stay like where we had shade trees and so on. And their kids went to school there. And then the two fellows that stayed in our backyard, their names were Bill and George Gale. And they'd come out from Kansas. And they came out to work at the Hanford project. And they worked out there was as machinists and welders. And then they saved their money and not long after that initial construction, they opened up a car dealership. And then they eventually moved to Yakima and had a car dealership. And they had the White Bus dealership. White Trucks, that was a brand name. And they sold dozens and dozens of those buses to the Hanford project. And so if anybody, your folks or anybody, can remember working out there and riding the green buses, those all came from their shop, Bill and George Gale. Arata: How many people would you say camped out there at any one time? Johanson: In our backyard? Arata: Mm-hm. Johanson: Them and they had families, the two of them, their wives and children. And then one of them's father and his wife and a younger sister of them lived out there also. And we enjoyed having them. I was in high school at that time before I left to go to the Navy. And they were good mechanics, so they helped me keep my car running. I had a Ford Roadster— Arata: Nice. Johanson: --back then. In fact, I still have a Ford Roadster. I belong to the Old Car Club of the Tri-Cities. And I have four, old cars. Arata: Wonderful. Johanson: A '32 Ford Roadster and a 1931 Model A Coupe, they both have rumble seats, and then a '63 Thunderbird Landau and 1954 Kaiser Manhattan. Arata: Wow. We've heard a couple stories of people going out and actually finding cars on the Hanford site. Johanson: Oh, yeah, back then, they'd find cars out there that people had left. And of course, now they'd be a treasure trove. But there were a lot of cars out there that people just abandoned when they got kicked off their property, evicted. That was a tough deal for a lot of people. Some of them spent their whole lives out there. And they had farms and orchards and families and, of course, the schools. And they were just plain evicted. And they didn't have much time. So a lot of them moved to Richland and Benton City and Kennewick and Pasco. And it was an exciting time, and it was a sad time at the same time. But it was pretty exciting for a guy that was 15, 16 years old. Arata: I wonder if you can maybe just talk a little bit about some of the changes when people started pouring in to this area to start building this site. Johanson: Oh, it was pretty grim at times, because you had so many people coming in, and they were out in the men's barracks and so on. And they'd have murders. And I remember my mother was on the federal jury in Yakima, had a couple of murder cases. You know, you get that many men in one spot, some of them aren't going to get along. We had a lot of gambling and throwing the dice and card games. It was like a den of iniquity. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Now, did you ever come to Richland, as maybe a teenager, and witness any of these changes? Johanson: Well, yeah, over two or three, four years, you can remember the construction and the building of the houses, all the alphabet houses and the prefabs. Of course, all the prefabs were built without foundations. And there was a lot of work in the later years of contractors putting in foundations on the prefabs that hadn't had any. And the prefabs were heated with a portable 220 volt heater, about 2,000 or 2,500 watts. In fact, I have one in my shop from way back in the '40s. And it still works, the 220 volt heater. And you could buy them, but I doubt if you could find them nowadays. We had the movie theater, out here, at Hanford, here, not far from where we’re at right now. In fact, it was just up the road here, south of here. And they had gigantic mess halls. And I worked out there as a teamster for a while, too, as a truck driver and swamper. So you worked in a warehouse. And we had plenty of off time. We'd throw dice. It was always fun to gamble a little bit. We couldn't go out to Toppenish, to the Legends Casino then. [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah. Arata: Is there anything else that stands out to you about the community life in Richland during that time? Johanson: What? Pardon? Arata: Is there anything else that stands out about community events or community life in Richland? Johanson: Yeah, they used to have a Richland celebration. I forget what it was called, Frontier Days or something, I believe. Arata: Atomic Frontier Days. Johanson: Yeah. And we come down and watch the parade. And it was interesting, very interesting and a lot of fun. And we'd also, up where the Lutheran church is, on the corner of Van Giesen and-- what is that other street that runs north and south? Anyhow, where the Lutheran church is now, there used to be a grange building. It was an old wooden building. And they held grange meetings there. And we used to go there. And they'd have dances in the old building. I don't believe it was a church at that time. Van Giesen was how you came from Benton City to get into Richland. And you'd turn right there and go down that street. And it was all alfalfa fields around here then. So that building was out in the middle of nowhere then, on the corner of Van Giesen. And they had fairs. And people would bring their canned goods and have it judged. My dad's two older brothers were bachelors, John and Charlie Johanson. And they lived in Benton City. And those two old bachelors, they canned stuff and beautiful products that they'd put out. And they'd go down and win prizes and ribbons at the fair, little fair they'd have there at the old dance hall. That was probably before Hanford. And as it spread out and started building houses for the project, then all those alfalfa fields became developments. I've had a lot of friends that lived in the alphabet houses. They were there well-built buildings. They're still standing. And a lot of them are overhauled and remodeled, but there's still a lot of fine houses that are still here from the old days. Arata: Yeah. So was there a fairly substantial influx of students to your school then? Johanson: Back before Hanford, Benton City School used to play Richland, because they were in the same league then. Because Richland was only about 300 people. And they had the families--I remember some of their names, the Van Dynes, they had a big family. And they played. We used to play them in basketball, against the Van Dyne brothers. And there were several others. I can't remember their names now. A lot of good athletes came out of Richland even during that time. And as they got bigger and bigger, larger, Richland High became a real force in the sports competition. Arata: So J.F.K. visited Hanford in 1963. Were you around for that? Johanson: In '63? No, that's when I lived in Wenatchee. I was division manager for Prudential Insurance Company up there. Arata: Okay. So you worked at Hanford until about 1954? Do I have that correct? Johanson: I worked until 1953. Arata: ’53. Johanson: A lot of places now, that were places I remember then, were like the corner by where the post office is now. And across the street, there's some offices on the west side of Jadwin. And that used to be a huge, big drugstore. And a lot of people would just hang out there, because they had a soda fountain. And it was an interesting place to be, meet all the young folks around there. Arata: I imagine it must've been exciting meeting people from all different places. Johanson: It was, because you'd meet people from all over the United States. People would come up from the South, the Midwest, as far as Florida. It would really broaden your scope, a lot more than being just raised in a little, dinky town, and then meeting all the people from the big cities and the eastern part of the United States. And they were different, the same but different. And when Bill and George Gale, they'd got to our place and parked their trailers under the trees, their dad was going to come out. And of course, they had accents. From Kansas to us, they had an accent. And George, he called, talked to his dad. We had an old telephone that was on the wall. You know, you had to crank it. He talked to dad back in Kansas. And he said, "wull," he says, dad, he says, if you have "tar" trouble, "wor" us. If you have tire trouble, wire us. [LAUGHTER] That was the way they talked. To us, it was humorous, but that's, you know, that's the way they were. Arata: You sounded a little funny to them, too. Johanson: They were wonderful people, too. Wonderful people. Arata: Now how did that come about that they came to camp on your property? Johanson: Well, they didn't want to stay out on the huge trailer camp out in Hanford. And they'd rather drive back and forth and have their kids go to the school, local school. And then it was kind of a paradise compared to some places, with great big shade trees. And the trailers were in the shade. It was good, a lot better place than being out in the desert. Arata: So they just happened to run into your dad somewhere? Johanson: I don't know. I think what they did was they were traveling around, scouting around, and they saw our place. And there weren't many places to stay at all. So they were extremely happy to find a place in order to park. And they were there about two years, I think. Arata: So they would pay your dad some sort of rent? Johanson: He charged them some rent. But it was really low, like $15 a month or something like that. Of course, wages weren't high then, either, because they were about--they were under $2 an hour at that time. I did a stint of--when I was ironworking, we went up to Coulee Dam. And I worked up there for a while and started out at $1.85 an hour and doing hard work. Now, the minimum wage is going over $10 an hour. We'd have thought we'd died and gone to heaven if we could get $6 an hour. Arata: Right. So were wages at Hanford comparatively better to what you? Johanson: Oh, they were better then. Because there, on the farm, we'd hire people to pick potatoes in sacks. And they'd get maybe like $0.02 or $0.03 a sack for picking them. If they were good, they'd make $2 or $3 a day. And the wages were like $0.25 an hour back in the '30s and into the time the project started. And then all the wages started going up to where you could make $75 a week. Even as an ironworker, I'd make about $75 a week. And then that work on down at McNary Dam, I was a foreman down there. And I got $2.25 an hour, so really cashing in. [LAUGHTER] Arata: So I wonder--most of my students do not remember the Cold War. It's like a foreign time period for them. Johanson: Right. Arata: Do you have any thoughts that you think it's important for the next generation to know about what America's role was during that time? Johanson: Well, the main role of keeping the peace and balancing the competition with Russia. It wasn't just Russia then. It was their whole group of countries that are separate countries now. And we know about, with the Ukraine and so on, what's going on right now. But it was a pretty scary at times. I remember where there was a time when everybody was putting in bomb shelters. And they were teaching kids to duck and cover in the schools. Get next to a concrete wall and cover your head as if that would have done any good. But we didn't have much else, much other choice. And a lot of people did put in bomb shelters. But I think in the end, it was not backing down. I think all of our Presidents have been outstanding, not just one or two, but from Roosevelt on up, through the start of World War II, and people like Harry Truman. It took a lot of guts to order them to drop the bombs on those poor people over there in Japan. And then continuing on, they were all good Presidents, I think. And they all played a role, whether they were Republicans or Democrats. You got to be good to get to be President. You have to have something on the ball. I won't get in to any politics. Arata: You can if you want to. [LAUGHTER] I’m curious, if you could talk for just a moment. It's kind of a side note to working at Hanford. But do you recall where you were when Pearl Harbor was bombed? Johanson: Yeah. It was in school time. School wasn't out. And the next day, we had an assembly. They had an assembly in the large auditorium at the school there in Benton City. They had the radio on. And we were listening to President Roosevelt with his famous speech. And that was quite a--really, the kids were scared. Everybody was scared that they were going to be coming here, bombing us, too. And they probably could have. And they probably would have except for the Japanese admiral that warned them not to. He said because, if you get over there and try to invade the United States, he said, there will be a gun behind every blade of grass. So he says, don't do it. That was probably a slight exaggeration, but he got his point across. [LAUGHTER] There was probably a gun behind every two blades of grass. Every blade of asparagus. [LAUGHTER] Arata: That's the end of my questions. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about, any other stories that stand out to you? Johanson: Mm. I remember a story about when they completed the N Reactor. It was a dual-purpose reactor. It produced uranium, for the war effort, for the military and also electricity. And I have a program from when President Kennedy came out and gave a speech and turned on the reactor. If I can find it here. And I would like to--if you guys would like to have it— Arata: We’d love to— Johanson:--for your work, I'd like to donate it. Arata: Oh, really? Johanson: It shows President Kennedy on the front. Let's see. All the official program and the story behind it, the atomic wand that he used. The atomic wand, it shows him using the wand to start the reactor and pictures of notables here. There are pictures up here. My dad, he was on the board of Washington Public Power Supply System at that time. And they were instrumental in getting the N Reactor going. And he was out there. His name is in there, Robert. His name was Robert Johanson. Arata: So your father was there. Did you get to witness this? Johanson: No. Arata: But your father did? Johanson: Yeah, he was out there, allegedly, one of the dignitaries. Arata: So did your father get to meet President Kennedy? Johanson: Oh yeah, they all got to meet him. Arata: Are there any stories about that day that he ever told you? Johanson: Like everybody else, they were all agog at getting to meet the president, President Kennewick—Kennedy. And so that was an exciting time for them. And literally thousands of people went out to the event. Arata: I've never seen an actual program. Johanson: Oh, that's one of the original ones that they got. And I think it would be maybe useful in your teaching. Arata: Yes, we would love to digitize this and make it available on our project website. Johanson: I was instrumental in starting an insurance company here, too. And there's a picture. Arata: So this is your--is this you or your father? This is you. Johanson: That's me. Yeah. Then also there's a big deal. Here's an old newspaper. This is Friday, February 18, 1966. That was the Tri-City Herald. And there's yours truly, right there. Arata: These are great. Johanson: And we employed people. And we sold stock all over the State of Washington. Arata: Wow, we would love to take some images of this. And we're happy to get it back to you. Johanson: Okay, sure. Arata: We have a big scanner. We can get a full scan of the whole thing. Johanson: Oh, great, yeah. It's kind of a yellowed newspaper after--how long has that been now?--50 years. Arata: A while. Wow. Yes, we would love to make this available. Johanson: And we had people, we had people on our board of directors that were like Sam Volpentest. He was a big name here, you know. He was a mover and a shaker. This was a brochure we had. It shows all of the board of directors and so on. Woman off screen: Sam Volpentest was really instrumental in keeping the money come out here for further development out in the area. So the economy kept going on here. Along with what's his name? Who was the representative? Skip? It was Skip something. Is that the right guy? There was a legislator who did a lot of good work for us too. But Sam Volpentest, there's lots of stuff named after him now. He was a big guy. Arata: There you go. I just learned something. Johanson: Pardon? Arata: I just learned something important. Johanson: Oh. Yeah, if I could have those back when you're finished. Woman: Of course. In fact, I can take them. Arata: We can, actually. Woman: If we're finished up, I can take them right down and bring them back. Is there anything else? Arata: Can you do that? Yeah, is there any other stories you'd like to share with us, anything else? Johanson: I'll probably think of a lot when I get home. Woman: That's usually how it works. Johanson: Well, the one about going out and getting the cider press. I think we were going to make some hooch or something. Arata: [LAUGHTER] Johanson: Hard cider. Arata: And did you? Johanson: I think so. Yeah. But we used to--you know, Hanford and White Bluffs were our opposing teams, because they were in the same league. And Richland was in the same league then. I think Prosser and Grand View, I think they were playing football. We had football. Benton City had never had football until I was a senior in high school there. And then we had football. We lost almost every game, because none of us had played football before. But by then, Hanford and White Bluffs, they didn't have football either. Kennewick and Pasco did and Prosser and Grand View. And our quarterback broke his arm, so he played the rest of the season with his arm, left arm in a cast. Arata: With a cast on and kept playing? [LAUGHTER] Johanson: Yeah, he kept playing, believe it or not. [LAUGHTER] Trying to think of some other things associated with Hanford. It was a big part of our lives, because that was the big deal. And the towns and Richland jumped from 300 people to several thousand almost overnight. And even out at the Richland Y, there were a lot of businesses out there at that time. Originally, there was only one business there. When you went from like Kiona to Kennewick, you would go through the Richland Y. And there was a service station there, and that's all there was there at that time. And eventually, there got to be several stores and restaurants and so on there, too. But there were a lot of people, they'd go to work, and there'd be a termination wind, a good old Tri-City windstorm with the dust blowing. And there would just be a line of them heading back home to where they came from, whether it be Kansas or Oklahoma or whatever. But they came out here, and a lot of them stayed, because it was still better than where they'd come from. Because a lot of them came right out of the Dust Bowl in Oklahoma. If you've ever seen the movie Tobacco Road, that's an old movie, it's good to get it and watch it. It gives you an idea of what things were like back then. Those were the people. And they'd come into town with old cars, old Model A Fords and so on. And they'd have suitcases and trunks up on top, tied down with ropes, and old trucks and everything. It looked like an evacuation of a war zone. And a lot them would just camp along the road, between the Y and Kennewick. Of course, the road went down where the park is now. And there were farms along there. A lot of the people coming into town to work would stop and camp along there, along the way, because they probably camped along the way, all the way up from wherever they came from, the Midwest. And then you had a lot of more sophisticated people, like the scientists, too, that came out. But they were the ones who got the plumb housing. Arata: Hey. Johanson: And you had the top-notch people, like Fermi and people like that that were the fathers of the atomic era. They lived here, too, some of them. Some of them just came out from Chicago and places like that to work. So like I said, I'll probably think of a lot more things when I get home. Arata: Always. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming in and spending this time with us and sharing your memories. Johanson: That's okay. At my age, you have a lot of time on your hands. Arata: It was wonderful. Johanson: Time on your hands! [LAUGHTER] Arata: Lots of stuff we hadn't heard before, so it was really great. Johanson: Pardon? Arata: You had lots of stuff. Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 200 kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:56:28 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1948-1953 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. George, Bill & Gale Roosevelt, Franklin D. Truman, Harry Johansen, Robert Volpentest, Sam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Johanson Description An account of the resource An interview with Richard Johanson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) 300 Area Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-13: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 Washington Public Power Supply System https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F503facfeffb1114bbcb124d98f0bd650.jpg 66083871458fac8b8095454b1f11ba2f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ee348740ff5bd1e247f32a02bcc137a.mp4 47755ac0406ca2312d3b6d8e09e2ccb4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William McCollough Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Northwest Public Television | McCollough_William </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Robert Bauman: So let's start by just having you say your name, and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> William McCullough: Okay, I'm William McCullough. W-i-l-l-i-a-m M-c-C-u-l-l-o-u-g-h. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Thank you. Today's date is October 22nd of 2013 and we're conducting this interview on a campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you tell us how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place, that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, back in 1950, my brother Dee--he was working here at Hanford—he came up here in 1944. And in fact he was in a reactor at the time that they started B Reactor up. Anyway, he came down to Salt Lake, which is where I was living, just before Christmas time. I was working for Utah Willow Mills at the time, as a shipping clerk. My wife was pregnant, and it became pretty obvious that a shipping clerk and a wife with a baby just is not going to make it. We don't have enough money. So I knew I had to change jobs. He came up and said, well, if you'd like to, I could probably get you on at Hanford, if you want to come up there. I said okay, let's check into that. Well, I sent in an application, and all of a sudden, all the neighbors started getting visits from the FBI, to check my background. And they finally decided, okay, I guess he’s safe enough. And so, I came up here in August 27, 1951 and started work here. Before I came up here though, I--Whoops, there it goes. Of course, I was born in Salt Lake. And we just had wonderful parents. I hated to leave them, but I thought, oh, I’ve just got to improve myself. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Man one: No worries. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, okay. What sort of work did you start with, when you arrived in 1951? What sort of job did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: [LAUGHTER] Well, we left Salt Lake. I was working, like I said, at Utah Willow Mills. And I worked half the day, went home, and my dad and my wife's grandfather, they loaded up this big U-Haul trailer. In fact, I haven't seen one as big, it was a Croft trailer. It was built out over the wheels, on the trailer. And they kept putting that stuff on, and putting stuff on, and putting stuff on. And finally, I said Dad, you know, it's not going to all go on there. And he said, there's no top on the trailer, why can't you? And it was very top heavy. Find out I was going to have trouble, because the first time I tried to stop at a stoplight, I couldn't. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, drove up there, left on a Saturday night. We stopped at Jerome, Idaho, and then continued on driving, and we got into town at about 2:30 in the morning. Really worn out, crying baby. At the time we had this little girl that was just five months old. And pulled in my brother's yard, he had lived in an R house, which is a very nice house, with a full basement. He told us, you could live here until you get housing. So he pulled me there, and we went out to the employment office. It was 8 o'clock in the morning, and we checked in, and it took about an hour, and they said, well, we're going to send you out to the 300 Area to work. But we’re not going to do it today; you can go home and take the rest of the day off, report there tomorrow. Oh boy, just what I needed. And sure enough, we went and got introduced to the 300 Area, the next day, on Tuesday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: What were your first impressions of Richland, and the area, when you first arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, that first day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Or, in those early days when you first came here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, I realized it's quite a small town, but I was quite impressed with it. In fact, we've always enjoyed it, living here. It is, it's smaller, but enjoyable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: So you said you started work at the 300 Area, what sort of work were you doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, the 300 Area--I don't know if you're familiar with this, but their main job was to make the fuel elements. The uranium came in billets, and they put them in an extrusion press and put them out into rods, 20 feet long. And then they'd send it over to the 313 Building, where they'd machine it to the diameter, and then they would can it. And the uranium really oxidizes fast. So as soon as they machine it, they've got to use it. And of course, they gave it a nitric acid bath, before they can it. And then they sent it over to the canning and dipping line, or what we liked to call it, the dip’n’dunking line, to can it. If you went over to—well, your canning line consisted of four molded, molten metal pots. Each pot had a different metal in it, all molten, very hot. And we essentially canned metal. And to do this, we had to have full coveralls on, we had gloves that went from here, all the way up to here. We had a hood to protect us. And spats on our feet, to protect our shoes from the splattering metal. And the canning line was extremely uncomfortable, [LAUGHTER] and it was not unusual to get a splash, as I said, that metal is running at 550 degrees, so it's pretty hot. And it was kind of an uncomfortable place to work, but the pay was good. We worked two weeks of day shift, and one week of swing shift, which was a nice shift. But we actually had this—they would take your metal, and put it in the first pot, and agitate it. And it would come out this pot, and put into a centrifuge, and throw off all the excess metal. And then they put it into a second pot. I could tell you what it was, but it might be classified, I don’t want to get in trouble. They put it into this next molten metal pot. And again, work it in there a bit, leave it for so many minutes, take that out and put in a centrifuge. There was a clock on the wall, which was going very slowly, and it'd tell you exactly which cycle it was supposed to go into. You'd say okay, pot one, and then you came over and it'd say centrifuge, and you'd put in the centrifuge. And you go on to the next one, pot two, centrifuge, and you go down to—well, you wait for the pot three. And there you washed them a little bit, to make sure you get all, everything off it. And then they pick them up and take them over to the next pot, which is molten metal also, and you'd actually slip them into the cans, under the molten metal, to can them. And you put a little cap on it, and then take it out and move it over to the quench tank, to cool it down. And after they got through there, you'd take it down to a fluoroscope, take the newly canned metal, uranium. And they could see the end of your metal, and so they'd say, okay, we need to cut this can back to here, so far. So they’d cut it to size, to the length they wanted, and then they sent it to the next station, and welded the cap onto it. And then they had to take it out to the next station, another fluoride, to make sure that it was cut right, they made sure it's to specs. And then they'd take it to the next station and they had what they called a frost machine, and they'd run it through induction coil and they'd spray this frost on it and it went through and tried to bake it on. And if it's any air pockets or anything in the can, it would show up and they'd have to discard it and start over again. If it didn't show as it having any air pockets in it, they'd put it into a pallet. The pallet held 300 slugs, pieces of metal, and ship it out to the 100 Areas. And so as a result, as an operator you worked the canning line and also each of the other stations. You rotated so to kind of share the canning line with everybody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: You mentioned that the metal could sort of splash and get on the protective clothing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Yes. As I say, we had these leather gloves and this asbestos covering all the way up to the shoulders to protect our arms. And we also had a full face shield over us and a hood. But you still got splatter occasionally and there's something about that molten metal and all the clothes you have on that no matter how many times you take a shower you had this odor about you. It just kind of bakes in. And so my wife could always tell when I was working the canning line. And it was dangerous. We took our break one time--we got a 10-minute break in the morning and 10-minute break in the afternoon and of course a lunch break—but while we was on a break they brought in what they called a coverage crew. Because these furnaces, they're going to keep generating the same amount of heat. So they had to try and maintain the temperature of the pots so that when we as operators came back in, that the pots would be ready to go again. So they'd stir them. They had a big paddle, they'd stir them. Well, this particular paddle had a flaw in it, and this coverage guy, he would take these paddles and put them all in the quench tank to cool it down and then he'd go and stir it. Well, that paddle had a flaw in it and got just a dab of water in it, and when he put that down into it, it blew up. The ceiling was about 20 feet high, and it splattered that ceiling. It just emptied that pot out. You wouldn't think a few drops of water would do it. And then it came down on top of him. Very severe burns. We all worked out there for 150 years, and it's the only time I've ever saw that somebody got hurt. Safety was always stressed so hard out there. They didn't want accidents. But that's the only time that I ever saw it, and it's scary. And they made sure enough that you do not put these paddles in water. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And about what time frame would it have been when that accident occurred? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: That would have been 1951, or '52, because I went out to 100 Areas in 1954, so it would have been in the time frame of '51—it would have been that three-year time frame. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: You said that operator was severely burned. Did he recover? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Oh yeah. I think he may have come back on disability, though. Because he was very severely burned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: So you worked as an operator there for about three years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: From 1951 to 1954. In 1954, I went out—up until 1954, your seniority was all one. To work in the reactors, you had to start 300 Area, and it's all on seniority. And when you got enough seniority in 300 Area, usually you would go to the 100 Areas. Well just in 1953 or what have you they said, we're going to one chance one chance only. If you want to go to the 100 Areas you go right now. If you don't take it now, you'll be a whole new seniority group. You'll start at the bottom again. So my wife and I, we got to thinking about it, didn't want round-the-clock work, but I knew I didn't want to work the Canyon Line all my life either. So at that point I went out there in January 1954, I went out to the 100 Areas to work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And so your job in the 100 Areas was as an operator? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: As an operator. Your operators out there they had a pile operator that then they decided pile operator doesn't sound right, we’ll call them reactor operators. We had the reactor operator and then had the utility operator, which is essentially an operator that doesn't have the seniority or the knowledge to advance to become a reactor operator. So I went out there as a utility operator, and they have what they called a roving crew, which is they rotate from all the different reactors. Any time the reactor is shut down, they would go ahead and assist them and give the reactor crew some help. Because there was also a lot of overtime because of it. So I was put on this supplemental crew as a utility operator, and I worked out there for about a year, and they shift me into the C reactor. At that time the C reactor was the newest reactor, and they put me in there as the utility operator to work. And so I worked there as a utility operator. What it meant was I couldn't sit at the control board, and I worked outside the control room pretty well. Didn't work in the control room hardly at all, only on an as-needed basis. Worked with a fellow by the name of Ted Lewis. Can I put names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: I worked for him. He was a supervisor and the control room specialist was Cliff Brenner. Both were very strict, and if this is what the book says, this is what you are going to do. Well, I worked there at C reactor for a bit, and they were starting to get hurting for pile operators or reactor operators, and my boss Ted Lewis came out and said, Bill, you are not qualified, but I'm going to qualify you if they promise that they will not shift you out and take you away from me until you get trained. And so on that stipulation, after a year out there as a utility operator, I was made a pile operator. And at that time I could sit at the control room and take my turn at the control board with Cliff Brenner looking over my shoulder, and Ted Lewis looking over his shoulder came out pretty good. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Can you explain maybe a little more detail what the sort of task that sitting at the control board would mean? What sorts of tasks were you're doing? You're sitting at the control board. What are you looking for? What sort of things are you keeping your eye on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: The old reactors they had nine control rods to control the reactor. C reactor, they put in 15 total, and when you sat at the control board you had these selsuns which shows the position of the rods and you had the instrument down here showing essentially where the temperatures of different tubes to give you an overall picture of what the temperature of the reactor is. And so you just sit there and then you had a galvanometer up here showing a change of power level. And then up here you had a big dial which showed you the actual power level. The power level indicator up here is very slow. It's calculated by taking the inlet temperature water and the outlet temperature water, and doing a bunch of calculating through the factors and it comes out as this is your power level. But this is very slow. It takes about three minutes to catch the actual changes and catch up. So you watch this galvanometer to get your fill in for if the power level changes at all, and then you go ahead and pull the rods in or out as needed to hold the power level. And you have the temperatures monitoring showing you where the heat might be shifting to. And so you try to maintain a good, even distribution of the power. Of course the chief operator or the specialist is telling you what you need to do, and sometimes you have to move or swap rods because the temperature is changing quite rapidly. The thing about that called Xenon poisoning, which it's—pours out portions of the reactor, so we have to find out all the time. So the heat is a continual movement all the time, and so we had to know it. And so that's what we were doing at the control board. We had two operators inside the control room, and each operator would sit for two hours at the control board, and the other operator would be walking around the control room, taking readings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then you'd swap. The interesting thing about it, I don't know, when you work graveyard—I don’t know if you’ve—you can get extremely sleepy along about 6 o'clock in the morning. The fact is you feel like you'd like to lay down and die. And so then you do things to stimulate your mind and keep you alert. Well, one morning I was sitting there at the control board and I thought, oh boy, I'm tired. And then they didn't allow coffee pots in the control room, so if somebody was going to go out, they'd get some coffee and they brought it back in from the lunch room. And I got my mind going. I thought, gee, you have a coffee pot and it percs. How long would that tube have to be before it wouldn't perc anymore? And we had a good time talking about it, laughing about it, and it kept me awake. And so then about 7:30, here comes in your day shift. And of course they had an engineer assigned to the area. He came in to check how everything was going. I said, "Hey, I've got a question for you. How long could that tube be and still perc?" And we kind of laughed and talked a bit. Well then I didn't see him again. We changed shift and went on change and it probably wasn't until I came back in a month, and by that time he was gone. Well, here he comes back with a three-page document based on you've got to know the quality of the coffee. What brand is the coffee? What is the pH of the water? And like an engineer. But we all looked at him. And we still got a big laugh. I still have that write-up at home that he gave me. But anyway it's things like that we went through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And how long did you work as an operator? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: I worked at C reactor for--can I look at notes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, sure, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: So I was at C reactor from January 1955 to December 1960, so about five years. Then I went on a supplemental crew, and then I went back to C reactor for a while. But then in 1960, they offered me a promotion to be a reactor specialist at the 100 B reactor—that was the initial one. So I went to B reactor and worked as a reactor specialist. That means I had the full responsibility of the control room. Your operating crew consists of a supervisor--by that time what they used to call the chief operator they were now chief reactor specialist. They have your supervisor and reactor specialist, which are both monthly paid supervisory jobs. And then they had five operators, which consists of the operating crew. I forget where I was going now. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Yeah, well, you’re talking about being a reactor specialist at B reactor, and your responsibility there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: So I just stayed in that position at B reactor from 1960 to 1964. And in 1964 they started shutting reactors down, or before the time. And I watched them go down and go down and I thought, you know, I better get out of here, because I'm going to lose my job. By that time I had six children. I thought, no, I can't afford to be laid off. So I know well I'm going to drop back into the bargaining unit and pick up my seniority so they have a lot more people to lay off before you get to me. And so I stayed back there as an operator for a year or so. And everything quieted down, I thought maybe I'll just go ahead and they offered me, they said, hey Bill, would you like to come back to the reactor specialist again? I said, oh, I'd love to. About a month after that, they announced they were going to shut down the D reactor, and I thought, well, I guess I'll get laid off here. So I started looking for another job. There was something else I was going to say and I got sidetracked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Let me ask you about when you moved to B reactor from C reactor, you became a reactor specialist which meant, as you said, more supervision and responsibility, was there a significant difference between the two reactors themselves? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: A big difference. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Could you explain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: B reactor had nine control rods; C reactor had 15, which meant that we had that much better control. The old reactors, there's a big gap between the top bank of rods and the top of the reactor, the active zone, and also the bottom row. As a result, by that time, they had developed these spines and we could put in temporary poison spines and pull them back out again to supplement the control rods. B reactor you had to do a lot more front face work, because that Xenon poisoning built up here and this area will die off and you shift down here and know this rate cycle, and a lot of times you had a lot of front face work to be doing. C reactor you had this other bank of rods, which made a big difference. So the C reactor's a lot easier reactor to operate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Were there ever any, during your years working at either of those reactors, any things happen, any emergencies or critical issues in the reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Was there what now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Were there ever any emergencies or critical issues at any time at either reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Not really. We had lots of problems in that during the charge/discharge quite often the hot fuel elements were dropped down amongst--instead of dropping in the basin they'd fall in the back pig tails and get so you couldn't go in the rear face at all. Then you had to figure out how to get them out amongst the tubes. You had to bring in fire hoses and everything else, and yet you couldn't stick your head around. You had to do it all by mirrors to get them out. But in general, not major problems. I might point out, I guess it's when I was at C reactor, they decided they was going to build a nuclear ship, NS Savannah. And so they brought the captain, or there was two of them came in, to the C reactor. Now not too many people know this, because it's dropped off in history, but they came in and trained and learned how to use nuclear material at the C reactor and after they left, they sent a ship. They presented a nice big model of the NS Savannah, which C reactor kept in a control room as a memorial to the fact that we did do this work towards turning atoms into plowshares. That was something we were always real proud of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: So you talked about shifts starting to take place, the beginning of the shutting down of reactors and less production at some point. How did that impact your work? Did you shift to other kinds of jobs there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Do you mean out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Not in the reactor, of course. If the reactor goes down, that takes everything down. So if you wanted to--Yeah, so if the reactor goes down, it's just your jobs are lost. Let me see if there's anything else. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Did you work at N reactor for a little while? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Actually what happened is that, following my progression, I finally decided I had to leave. I started looking for jobs, and I heard that they were going to build a brand-new reactor, the FFTF, the Fast Flux Test Facility. So I thought maybe I can get on that. So I put an application down there and I got in contact that said they wanted an interview. So I went on and interviewed with Pat Cavil. He says, we are going to monitor the engineering and help them to you build this new reactor. And so I took that job. I didn't know anything about engineering—about planning and scheduling, but they said, we'll train you. So I went down there with three other men, and he gave us an extensive class on planning and scheduling. And we'd go on and contact the engineer and say, okay, what job is it that you need to do? And what needs to be done before you can do that? Which actually made a critical path. And then we'd monitor their progress to see how—if it’s going to show up in time, to help them out. So we did all the planning and scheduling for the engineers and the planners. And it’s enjoyable work. Didn't have much in the way of computers them days. If we had to get information, we'd use a mainframe. They had a great big, big, big computer in the Federal Building, and we'd use that and take it down there and they'd put all the information into the computer and it draws a great big chart and we looked at it and showed people where they're at and what's going to have to be done in what order. It's fun. I did that for several years down there. There again, like everything else, things didn't look too good. [LAUGHTER] It's funny on the FFTF they said we ought to make that into a power producer. That way you can go ahead and do your experimental stuff and get some electricity out of it. And the engineers and no. No, no. This is our toy. You're not going to dictate to us when we shut down and when you're going to operate it. We want to do it without any outside influence. And here when they shut the thing down--the FFTF down finally, if they would have just listened and hooked that up to produce electricity, it would still be going. That was a 400-megawatt plant. And it would still be going now if they didn't have the idea that we're not going to be dictated by a bunch of power producers. We're going to run it the way we want to. Well, they did. They shut it down. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: I wonder, taking you back to the 300 Area, B Reactor and C Reactor, what was the most challenging part of your work at Hanford? And maybe what was the most rewarding part of the work you did at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: The most rewarding and challenging is when I was made a reactor specialist. It was real rewarding to go in there and find out you have a bunch of heat up here and cold down here and figure just do this, this and this and maybe I can get it all on your control recorders that are right next to your operator. We would select tubes representative of the area. So we would select a tube up here, a tube over here, a tube here, a tube here and on down to monitor. And then we'd try and bring the temperatures closer together so that the reactor is more balanced. Of course the more balanced you get then you're further away from the limit, so then you raise your power level. So that was a real challenge to go in there and see what a mess the previous shift had left you and then go in there because the heat is always--the heat, which is also in reactivity, is always shifting in the reactor. So it was fun to go in and see just how flat you can get it. I thoroughly enjoyed the job. It was is nice. It was a good job, a very rewarding job. That's probably the most rewarding job I had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that the incident happened when you were working at 300 Area of the worker who was—the pile exploded. Were there ever any other incidents--and it doesn't have to be a safety incident--but things that sort of stand out your mind that in your memory is really unique things that happened during your time working at Hanford? Any special events or happenings that really stand out in your mind from your time working there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: No, off hand I can't think of anything. Could I have a drink of water? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, yeah. There's water right there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Let me look at my notes here and see if I’m missing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Okay, one thing about the reactor specialist is that I had essentially control of the reactor, but I didn't have any manpower problems. The supervisor, he had personnel problems and everything else, but as a reactor specialist, if the people were bellyaching, I'd say, go see the boss. [LAUGHTER] It was very good. Also, backtracking, the bus system out there was phenomenal. If you lived in Richland, the bus system, the buses—you wouldn't never walk more than a block and you'd be picked up to go to work. And you'd get on the bus and do your thing. What was interesting, some people, they would play cards. They would get the four seats and put their leg through the seat so they're all facing, and they'd play bridge or play pinochle. For many years before I got there they were playing poker. In fact, reading I find out that a lot of people they did such a good job on poker, they'd just ride the buses back and forth. [LAUGHTER] But the buses were just absolutely fantastic, and people were reading, sleeping, what have you, but good bus system. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And that's how everyone got to work, pretty much, is that correct? The buses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: How would you describe the community of Richland, during the 1950s especially? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Oh, by the way, just one back to the reactors. To give you a feel for the advancements we made in the reactors in operating. I can't talk pell-mell with a guess, but the design rating of B Reactor--by the time I got out of there, it hasn't quite doubled the design of it. Well, by the time I go out there until I left, they, by a factor of eight to ten power level. They just cranked that pile up just because of a better knowledge, better fuel. And it's amazing that you do take a Model T and you go ahead and you can drive down the highway at 10 or 15 miles an hour and say, boy, look how fast I'm going. And all of a sudden you're, going 150 miles an hour, that's about what they out there with the reactors is take these old Model T's and kept improving them, and improving them, getting the water to flow into them. And it just is amazing how much power we got out of there. In fact, we got it at such a high power level they said, okay, let's cut back to try and preserve the reactors so they could operate longer. So we actually took a mandatory cutback. We really did a good, good, good job or reducing plutonium. Of course, by the time I was out of there, I got thinking sooner or later they're going to say, hey, we have enough plutonium—we have enough plutonium to destroy the entire world. Someday they're going to start shutting the reactors down, and sure enough they did. That's kind of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Overall, how would you assess your years working at Hanford? How was it as place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: I found it a fantastic place. In fact, working at Hanford, working in that community, you figure that—We ended up having six children. My wife never had to work out of the home. I made enough money out there--there was a lot of overtime--but we had both agreed that we would not use overtime to live off of. It would be stuff that we wouldn't normally buy like a boat, or a trailer, a camper, a new truck. Hanford itself has been good to me. And the area is fantastic. You couldn't ask for anything better than that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Well, I thank you very much for coming today and sharing your experiences working at Hanford. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, I sure appreciate being able to get in here and talk with you. Because it's exciting, too. I'd like people to know what went on out there and how safety was a primary concern out there. Everything we did it had to take your safety always, always came first. It has been good place. As I said, I raised six children, and they love this place so good that they all live locally, except one. Her husband thought maybe he had job advancement, so he moved to Tennessee about three or four years ago. Up until that time we have the whole family living here. Pretty nice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Yeah. All right, well, thank you again, appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Thank you. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:48:18 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 254kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 313 Buidling 100 Area B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor N Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1960 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Lewis, Ted Brenner, Cliff Cavil, Pat Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William McCullough Description An account of the resource An interview with William McCullough conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/22/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-14: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. 100 Area 300 Area 313 Building B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.) N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8530dda398fb0c9e8a7decd68d4d3758.jpg 3142adf019d9de516b8f2a4add7fa436 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F616a067d52fab2686c04cbe6e6a6912b.mp4 240981a59517bb87ea7cccdfd57c3fca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michell, CJ Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Michell_CJ Whenever you're ready. Whenever we're ready, OK. All right, I guess we're good to go. OK. All right. [LAUGHTER] Robert Bauman: All right, let's start by having you say your name, and spell it for us. CJ Mitchell: All right. CJ Mitchell. And actually there's a Junior on the end, and that's CJ, no periods. It's initials only. M-I-T-CH-E-L-L, and then of course Junior, J-R. Bauman: All right, thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is October 30th of 2013. Mitchell: It's my mom's birthday. Bauman: Is it really? Mitchell: Yes. Bauman: Hey. Mitchell: [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So CJ, if we could start by just having you talk about when you first came to Hanford and what brought you here. Mitchell: Well, I came October 3, 1947. And I was 16 years old at the time. And in the early years, in 1943, my relatives, primarily my uncles and also my father-in-law, and others from my community down in Northeast Texas came to work on the Manhattan Project. And, of course, then I came here in '47, and that's the start of the Cold War. Yeah. Bauman: And you know how your relatives heard about Hanford? Mitchell: Yes, and I was a young kid I guess at that time, but anyway I remember people coming to the community and talking about, and trying to identify people to come out here to Hanford. And actually they gave them a number. And when they got to Pasco, they matched up that number. And then when they got there, they found out it was another forty miles out to Hanford. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Was that DuPont, then, that people from-- Mitchell: I would think it was DuPont doing that time. I'm not sure, because I was young, I don't remember exactly what it was, yeah. Bauman: Right. And so you arrived here, as you said, in 1947 as a 16-year-old. What were your first sort of impressions of the place? Mitchell: Well actually it was really interesting, because when I first came--and I got here at nighttime, which most people will tell you that--but anyway, came into Pasco, and there was five of us. I had two first cousins, myself, and then two other people from my community. And we didn't actually come out here the first day. We went to East Pasco, because my relatives live there. And we slept in a little tent about maybe five--it wasn't even five feet. One uncle had a trailer on one side, the other one had a trailer on the other side with a little--I would say it's a little porch in between. And of course our tent was just out at maybe 20 feet away, out in the yard. That's where we slept at night. We visited during the day, and then crawled in there at night and slept. Bauman: How long did you sleep there? Mitchell: We were there for about, actually about three months. Because when I first came, I got a job working right up over the hill here, up on the trailer park, right up on North Richland right here, on the east side of George Washington Way. But they didn't have the barracks ready at that time. So we would catch a bus in the morning and ride out here until they got the barracks ready. And my first job was working in the--for every trailer they had a washhouse. There was no indoor plumbing. So all the homes, they had a washhouse, where they did the laundry and where they went to the bathroom. And so that was my job, helping complete those. Bauman: Oh, okay. So you lived in East Pasco-- Mitchell: Just for a couple of months, and then we were able to move into the barracks when they got the barracks finished. And that experience was that—well, it was only $1.40 a week to live there. And that included daily maid service and clean linen once a week. And so that was pretty good. At the mess hall, for lunches--when we'd go to work, for our lunch we could get a lunch box for $0.50. And that included a couple sandwiches, maybe an orange, an apple. Maybe a slice of pie or something. Yeah. Interesting stuff. Bauman: What sort of were the working hours? What sort of hours-- Mitchell: Well, actually, we worked eight to ten hours a day and then a half day on Saturday. And so I think I was making like $1.30 an hour. And I think, like $65.00 a week was big money. Because back in East Texas I could make like $25.00 or $30.00 a week. And I was working in a sawmill. A little portable sawmill. Yeah. Where they made cross ties. Interesting work. Bauman: Now what was the town in East Texas that you-- Mitchell: It was a little place called Kildare. K-I-L-D-A-R-E. All it was there, it was maybe like four little businesses and a train station, and just a crossroad. Dirt roads, no pavements. No. Everybody walked. Bauman: So when you came in '47, what was the racial situation here, were things segregated? Mitchell: Well, they had discrimination. You couldn't eat there, and the bus station in Pasco. And everybody lived on the east side, and I think there was a few people lived there maybe just west of the underpath and up on 1st or 2nd Street right in there. Course I was, you know I didn't get involved because I was working. But that was what the situation was, yeah. Bauman: Did that surprise you at all, or—the sort of segregation? Mitchell: Not coming from East Texas. Because I grew up in a segregated world. So that wasn't a surprise to me. Bauman: Was the workplace segregated also, when you moved up to live here as well? Mitchell: Well, yeah, actually the crews were segregated. The labor, and mostly general labor, that's what I knew about, was general labor. But I think me being a young guy, they put me over with the plumbers. And what I was actually doing, when they put the joints together, they did sorting in those days, and you had to--they called it bell holes, where you'd have room to work around those, and put those together. That was my job, to dig those bell holes. Bauman: Oh, okay. And so how long did you do that work? Mitchell: Well, I did that work about three months. Because what happened--I came in October, and really, I got homesick. And if you've never been homesick, you don't know what I'm talking about. It's really--and then at the end of I think in January, I went back home. I went back to Texas for--I'd been here about three months and man, I was so homesick I went back. And then I came back in the spring of 1948. Right about the time they had the big flood. And then, after that, when I came back then, and also lived in the barracks at that time, but I helped build the ranch houses there in Richland. Yeah, built those ranch houses there. And I also worked on the 100-H reactor. Helping build the 100-H reactor at that time. Bauman: So what brought you back in '48? Was it the opportunity for work? Mitchell: Just the work. Knowing the work and the pay. It's just that, well, I had to get over the homesickness. I went back to the East Coast, see. Came back because I knew the work was here, and that's what I did. And then I stayed until after the big cold winter in 1949 and '50. And then in that maybe like February or March, somewhere in there, it was three of us. We pulled a single wide trailer from North Richland to San Francisco, because one of the guys had a sister living there. And then as we were going to California, pulling this trailer, we got down around Williams, California, in Northern California there, and somebody wanted to know if we wanted to stop and pick cherry blossoms. I never thought, you know—we'd never heard of a job picking cherry blossoms. And so then we didn't pick cherry blossoms. We went on into San Francisco, and we didn't get any work there right away. And one of men and myself--we went back to Texas. And then the other gentleman, he went into the military. And then that's when I got back there, in 1950. That's when my wife--my wife was my high school sweetheart. I married her, and we went to Chicago for the next 15 months. And then I came back to the Tri-Cities in 1951. And then I worked on McNary Dam. Moved out to Hermiston, Oregon and worked in construction there, and then in the spring of 1952, I came back to Pasco, worked on the blue bridge, helped that. And the construction on the irrigation canal, irrigation project coming down through the basin. That was my job when I came back in 1951. And then, after that, then I worked on, built the 100 Ks. The 100-K East and West. I worked on that, and then I worked in helping build the PUREX facility in 200-East Area. And then in the spring of 1955, I went to work for General Electric. That was in the fuel preps department in the 300 Area. Bauman: 1955 was it? Mitchell: 1955. And that's when I was working there, and that's when I got out of construction. And then when I got into the fuel preps area, well, they had locker rooms and showers and lunch rooms. And the work there, we had a break. I never heard of a break before. [LAUGHTER] So my job on the production line was to take two fuel elements, and put them in a basket. And they would go down in some aluminum Al-Si. And when they come out, another person would take those two and take them to what we call canning and get them canned. Take them over to get canned and then take them to the quench tanks cooling area. And I did that. Now, in the locker rooms there was a bulletin board, and on this bulletin board, that's where all the job postings were. And those were gotten by seniority. And every Monday morning was when you selected. And I noticed, nobody ever turned those jobs down. So I said, there's got to be something out there better than what I'm doing over here. And then I started thinking, well, you better get something between your ears. I'd go to college in those days. And by that time I had a wife and three children. That's when I decided, well, I better get going. So I'm embarked upon a night school program and I went to night school for 14 years. I didn't know if I'd ever get a degree or not. But I played basketball, just pick-up basketball, and one of the guys that was an engineer out there, he played some basketball. And he said one of things you can always have, math and chemistry. So I didn't know if I'd get a degree or not, so I studied math and chemistry. And through that, I was able to work my way out of that into—out as a technician, and then later on in the human resources. And I just started that program and I stayed with it. 14 years. Bauman: So I want to go back, a little bit, to when you were talking about working fuels prep. Mitchell: Sure. Bauman: Did you have to wear special equipment to do the job you were doing? Mitchell: Yeah you had to have coveralls. You had to have special coveralls, to wear that, and shoe covers. You had to wear those, yeah. Bauman: That was to protect you from anything splashing? Mitchell: Protect you, yeah, protection. And you had to wear of course safety goggles, you had to wear those. Bauman: Right, right. And you said that was with GE. Mitchell: Yeah, that was General Electric. Bauman: General Electric. Mitchell: Yes. Bauman: And so how long did you work that? Mitchell: I worked General Electric until 1964. Not that particular job, but what I did as a result of going to school, I did several jobs there. And one of the jobs that I had there was I worked as a person that drove a forklift—could unload fuel elements and help the guys put them on the truck to take to the reactors once they had gotten what we called canned. And also we had a couple little warehouses where we stored things. And we would have certain fuel elements in there, just bare uranium elements there. During that time they started what they called the big extrusion press for the fuel elements to go to the N Reactor, when they were going to build the N Reactor. So actually I hauled the first fuel elements, they were billets, to be put through an extrusion press for the N Reactor. And they did that in the 306 Building. Interesting work. And I had gone to probably 15 interviews before I even got a job, and on my 16th interview I came in on a swing shift and my boss says they would like to interview you over in the 327 Building. And of course out of courtesy, I went there. I didn't expect to get anything because that was pretty disappointing, that many times and nothing. And so once I got over there and talked to the gentleman over there and I got back to my workstation, about an hour later he came back and he said, well, you're going to have that job over there. And when I went over—the job I was working in was a bargaining unit job, a union job. And they had like three classifications. They had a C, a B, and an A. One-two-one was the ratio. And when they hired, you moved up. If they laid off, you moved down. So I was a C operator. I was caught in the sling here. So when I got the chance to go over to the 327 Building, I had to give up my seniority there. And I took a $17.00 a week pay cut, to take that job and take a chance on it. And they could've laid me off the next day. But I took that job, and really I've never looked back since. Turned out to be a great move for me. Bauman: Yeah. And so how much longer did you work at Hanford, then? How long did you work there? Mitchell: Well, I worked there at—in fact, when I got over into the radio metallurgical part where they do an examination on radioactive fuels, studying the whole why they had ruptured in the reactors and dissolving samples for research, things like that. And then I worked for a gentleman named Mike McCormack, who was really a legislator in this area. And he was a chemical engineer by profession. And he had designed some of the casts that they transported elements in. They had a situation where they wanted to bring in a swing shift. And they talked about that, in the meeting he says, if any of you folks are going to school or want to go to school then we don't have to go identify other people that has to come and go in shift. My hand went up. It was the only hand went up. And then the next week they decided they weren't going to have that shift. But one since my hand went up, they set up a special shift for me to go to school. That gave me a chance to make some extra time at Columbia Basin College. And I worked a swing shift, and then Mike McCormack being a chemist--I would come in early on swing shift and he would teach me, he taught chemistry with me during that time. Actually one the best jobs I've ever had was in that group, even though moving up to human resources and all that was great. But just the whole environment there was one of my special places in my career. And then when I got into human resources, that was when the civil rights movement started. Also, just prior to that, there was a job in the 325 Building doing some research. We were studying what happened out in space capsules, there were certain parts of the capsule that would freeze up. And so they developed these uranium oxide pellets to place in there so it would take care of that situation. And I was able to go over into the 325 and work one-on-one with the guy that was doing that research. So I helped do that. And the way I got that job, I had more math and chemistry than anybody in the lab that didn't have a degree at that time. And so I got selected for that. And then just by my going to school and my other community work, when the civil rights movement started, I got an opportunity to go into human resources. And then I ended up getting a degree in business. So I'm half technical, half business. So it turned out a great career for me. Bauman: And how long did you work in human resources, then? Mitchell: Oh, 20, 30—the last 28 years I was there, in human resource. Did a lot of hiring of those science and engineers. Orientation of new staff or putting in 401(k) programs. Did a lot of things. Bauman: And which contractor contracted? Mitchell: That was General Electric until Battelle came in, 1965. Battelle came in, I worked for them. Bauman: Yeah, okay. I want to go back a little bit, first to when you initially came back in '47 as a 16-year-old, and you said you were living in a tent. What was that like? What was East Pasco like at the time? Mitchell: There was no indoor plumbing over there. The streets were all dirt. Yeah it was pretty--it wasn't very good. It was kind of like back in East Texas. Because we just had dirt roads, we had no pavements or anything then. Did a lot of walking. And so yeah, it was like that there. Looking back. Bauman: And then you moved to the dorms, right? Mitchell: And then we moved out here to the dorms. And that was an experience. Because I'm 16 years old, and these guys—I never heard swearing and things like I had heard in that. I know my head was going like this all the time. Because I'm telling you, these guys, they were something else. And on Sundays, I would try to get some kind of a ride back into East Pasco where my uncle and his wife lived, and then that would get me away from that. And then there was also some other people that we knew each other from there and so we would go there too. So I'd ride over with them and come back. Bauman: And then you mentioned you had gone back to East Texas and you and your wife got married. And then you went to Chicago. Mitchell: Chicago for a couple of summers. Bauman: Now, why'd you go to Chicago? Mitchell: I had a brother had lived there. He'd been military and he lived there in Chicago. And I had stopped there during the time when I first came to Washington. And the way I got there, I knew where he was. And when we left home, I don't know, I did some things that maybe were maybe kind of silly when I was growing up. But in Texarkana, we were all getting ready to come to Washington. And I got off the train and I went--they used to have these phone booths where you could go in to have your photo taken. And so when I got back on the train, and on my way to come through Saint Louis, come into Saint Louis and that way you came around Saint Louis, Chicago Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and then around the northern part here. Well, I lost my billfold or something in there. And so my one uncle gave me money and I got off the train in Chicago, and my ticket, and I went and stayed with my brother. And stayed with him for about a month. And then I went back to Texas. I worked at a punch board factory. You know, you made punchboards. In the old bars, used to have where you'd go and punch a board, and punch on punchboards. Well, they were making punchboards, down on Michigan Avenue. Well, I got enough money to get back to Texas and maybe work a few more weeks and get some more money to come back. And so I got off the train in Chicago because I lost my billfold. And then I worked there for three or four weeks. Got enough to get back home and then came back again. And then in the summer of '48 when I was coming back to start working on the ranch house in Billings, Montana. I got off the train to get a newspaper. I looked up and the train's gone, leaving. So I ran the train down, caught the train. So just about the time I'm getting on the train I hear a guy yell, well if you can't make it, you can go home with me. I caught the back of the train. Worked my way up through all the cars. And then finally the guys on the train said, God, what's wrong with this kid, I'm sure they said that's the craziest kid I've ever seen. But anyway, because you know, my jacket was there, my coat was there with my ticket and everything. But I caught up. [LAUGHTER] But then of course I learned. But that's what happened. And then I came back, yeah. But then going to Chicago was--I played baseball. We didn't have baseball in school, but I played with the men teams back in Texas. And I loved baseball. And when we got married and went to Chicago, well then I knew there was always jobs in Chicago. Whether you liked the job or not, there's jobs there. So we went there. And we stayed there, and our oldest son was born there. And I would go out to Northwestern University out at Evanston, and try out for baseball. I was pretty good at it. I could hit and I could run. My arm, I couldn't throw very well. But I could hit and I could run. But anyway, I just thought well, maybe—you know, 19 years old, you still have it in you. And then I realized, after being there for a while and going to a lot of the games--and I saw the big name players at Comiskey Park and Wrigley Field. And they had double headers in those days. And you could see all these players. And I got to see Jackie Robinson, and Don Newcombe, and Bob Feller, and Joe DiMaggio, and Ted Williams. I got to see all these big name players which I was fascinated by. And of course then I was working for a smelters, and I had a fairly good job. But then I got to thinking, well I know where there's fresh air, and I know where the work is good. And so we came back. And she went home and stayed with her father down in East Texas for maybe like a couple of months while I got situated here, and then she came here. And then we've been here ever since. Great experience. Bauman: And when you came back then, where did you live? Mitchell: When I came back here, that's when I came back and I lived in East Pasco. But I worked on McNary Dam, I moved out to Hermiston where I could be six miles away. Just go down and come back. I always believed in living close to work, and so that's what I did. And then in the spring of '52, that's when I came back. Worked on the blue bridge, helped build that. Irrigation canals out here, and then-- Bauman: And did you move back to the area here, through then? Mitchell: Yeah, I moved back to Pasco. And I lived in Pasco then until 1955. Because when I went to work for General Electric in 1955, then you could get housing in Richland. Your name would go on a list and you could get housing. And that's when it really, really took off for me. Really took off for me. Bauman: And was housing readily available then? I mean, as an African American? Was that difficult? Mitchell: Well if you could get GE out—you couldn't buy a house. I couldn't buy a house in Richland because I was black, you know, from real estate people. And that was as late as 1965. But back then it was the government homes, and if you worked you could get a home. And so it didn't matter. It wasn't up to them, then. It was up to General Electric then. And I rode the bus back and forth to work, $0.10 a day round trip. $0.05 a day. I could walk up to the bus stop, catch a bus, and go to work. And then in the outer area, the construction in outer area, they paid you isolation pay. They paid you $4.00 a day to go out there doing construction all the way out there. 300 Area, you didn't get anything, but way out there, and then the crafts got more. Interesting. Those days are gone forever though. Bauman: So when you did go to buy a home then in Richland, did you experience some difficulty? Mitchell: Oh yeah. It was tough. The guy, he just flat told me, said because you're black, we won't sell you a house. I can't take a chance on my investment. And so then of course, at that time, there was like the NAACP and other groups wanting to come in and get involved and I said no, I'll take care of it myself. I said well, my kids live here, my kids got to walk down these streets. I'll take care of it myself. And I just let it go. And then there was a gentleman by the name of Everdy Green had a real estate company. He called me up and he says well, he said I hear you're having problems getting a house, and I'll sell you anything you want. And I said yeah, I know you will, because your prices eliminate me. I said the level of your homes, what they cost, I said I'm just making a weekly salary. I can't afford one of your homes. And the interesting thing about that--and I never knew I'd be in real estate. And once I got into real estate I ended up selling Everdy Green's home. Yeah. Ended up selling the home that he owned. And he was the guy, but--it's interesting. And then, where I live now--I just live on Spring down here, right down the street here--first night I was there I picked up the phone, phone rings, some guy said, this is the Ku Klux Klan he said, and you're next. That was what I got on the phone. And so I just called and reported it. But nothing ever happened after that. But that's what happened to me. Bauman: Right. Were there other incidents where people opposed you sort of moving in, or-- Mitchell: Well no, but I heard later on from Ron Kathren, when Ron Kathren bought his house. The one who lives on the street. It was kind of interesting. But the place where I was turned down was in Beverly Heights. Beverly Heights is where Fred Meyer is, and up on the hill, that's the area. Well later on, even years later, I went up and there's a home for sale by owner. Up there, a house. And then I knocked on the door, and when he saw I was black, he just slammed the door. He says, go over there, there's some houses over there. Point prefab area. But you know, you run into that. And then I had one person that worked with me in the laboratory. He says, I don't have to worry about that. He said I don't have to worry about this. Said I'm white, said I don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. It's just been interesting, it's just been an interesting experience, a real interesting experience. But what it is, I just let it roll off and keep moving. That's how you have to do it. Can't change things. Bauman: A little bit earlier you mentioned civil rights movement. Were there organizations, NAACP and other organizations, here in the Tri-Cities area? Mitchell: Yeah, there was NAACP, and there was one guy by the name of McGee. And sometime he would be kind of like a one-man walking picket. He was a real fighter, and everything like that. But I wasn't as involved as a lot of people, because I was working all the time. But I knew things was going on, and I did my share. Where I've lived I've always been involved in community. I was on a planning commission, and things like that. All that. Bauman: In Richland? Mitchell: Yeah, oh yeah. Bauman: And about when was that? Mitchell: About 1969, '70. Back in those days. Bauman: And what did you think of that experience? Mitchell: Yeah, it was an interesting experience. It really was. But you know, I made the motions on a planning commission to put the infrastructure into Meadow Springs area of South Richland. And I went to work the next day and out in the 300 Area was a 3760 Building which they just tore down recently, in the last few months. Was called a technical library, up in the upper area. I walked in one morning, there was a guy named Guthrie, G-U-H-T-R-I-E, named Guthrie. I don't know what his first name now was, but anyway, he was kind of a loud guy in the community. But anyway, he cornered me and he said, 'bout all the what it was going to be, paying the taxes, what it was going to cost and all that. And I said, well I don't know who you are, but my philosophy is that if you're going to have a good community, you've got to make it a good community. And it's going to be no better than the people that live in it. And that's the way I left it. And then he got on the city council for a while, and he was kind of a different guy. But pretty soon he just kind of faded away. I don't know where he is now. He was the same way--because when I was in the lab, I was in charge of employee benefits. Had some responsibilities there. And he was a little different there too, because he just wanted you to give him the money and he would buy his own ticket to get his own benefits. He wasn't interested in regular benefits like everyone else. But you get some of that. Learned a lot. Bauman: So I know at some point you got into officiating, doing sports officiating. Mitchell: Yeah, in 1964. Well, a little earlier than that they wanted me to get into officiating but I was going to night school; I was trying to get finished up. And there was a gentleman they said, well they had no African American people in officiating spots, you know, here. And the guy who came to me was working as a garbage pickup person in Richland. The garbage pickup person, his name was Johnny Singleton. And there was a guy in Pasco by the name of, I believe it was Jim Pruitt. Big, tall, about 6'6" African American guy. And Singleton, by him being on the garbage truck crews, like they'd pick up garbage. And they dumped it by hand then, instead of the sophisticated stuff they got now. But anyway, talked to him about somebody getting into sports. Refereeing sports. And of course my kid was already playing little league here at that time. And so he thought about me and Pruitt. And so the three of us, we started out. And of course when I got in it, because I'd been around baseball, my curve just went up. It just went like that. And I was in the Pac-8 in two-and-a-half years. I didn't even know I was that good. In the first year I worked, they picked me for the little league playoffs, but they said we don't let first year people work in that. But there was never a year when I officiated sports that I wasn't picked for some playoffs like that. And then all that got me into American Legion, then into--actually I worked pro ball before I went to that two-and-a-half years, year and a half. I had been down to Kennewick working one day, one morning, and I came home about 4:00 and the phone rang and it was a guy from the Tri-City Braves at that time. Ever hear of the Pro Ball Club? Bauman: Yep. Mitchell: He says get out here at 6:30, you got double header. So I go out there and I work double header. So the guy I was sitting in the room with, his name was Biddick. His name was B-I-D-D-I-C-K. I'll never forget his last name. And he was telling me about how to do it, and he said well, he says if the catcher has to reach out a little bit, he says just go ahead and call that a ball. He said, because the fans will get on you. I said well, listen I don't know who you are, I said, but what I’ve been taught is if the ball hit the strike zone any place, whenever it hits the strike zone, it's a strike. I don't care where it goes beyond that. And I said, and that's what I'll do, they may not have me back. And there was a guy by the name of Ted Sizemore. Ted Sizemore, University of Michigan. He was a catcher. He ended up as a second baseman for the Dodgers. But he was a catcher at that time. And I worked that game, and in the Tri-City Herald the next morning, Ted Sizemore says the best balls and strikes game they had ever had called, since he had been there. And then, and I know I'm jumping way ahead, but way back in 2000, when I was inducted into the NCAA Hall of Fame in Chicago, when I got up to talk and I was telling them about, I said my first game was behind a guy by the name of Ted Sizemore. And his wife happened to be in the audience. Bauman: Really? Wow. Mitchell: His wife was in the audience. And I didn't know it but his wife was in the audience. And that was pretty interesting. Bauman: That’s pretty amazing. Mitchell: But then, well it just turned to gold. I could run. I could run, I just enjoyed it. And I don't know why, later in years we call it you've got to be in the place when lightning strikes, whatever it is. You've got to be when lightning strikes, there's your opportunity. But I was working, taking a half day's vacation to work a game with Columbia Basin College. That was my second year. And the guys from the Pac-8 in those days was there watching some players. And after the game was over, one of the guys came over to the car and he says you ever thought about coming to work in the Pac-8? And I says, well I'd love to someday. He said, well what I did, he said, we watched you work the bases. Your focus never left what you were doing. We watched you work the plate. Your focus was always there. And he says, well you're really better than some of the guys we have up there. And I said, well I'd be happy to try it. What I know about it, I never been there before. But anyway, that's how I got there. Bauman: And how many years did you do-- Mitchell: I did it for 30, I did it for 36 years in the whole Pac-8 team. And then I evaluated umpires until they went to the Pac-12. I would go from here. I wouldn't go evaluate officiants—I wouldn't travel. But I would just go to WSU, my wife and I, until they went to Pac-12. Then I thought well, it's time for somebody else to do it. And I did a lot, overall I got 21 World Series under my belt. And two Olympic. I worked Olympics in '84 and '88. And I worked the first games, when they were demonstration sports for the Olympics. I worked ball and strikes on the first game ever in [INAUDIBLE] Colorado in '78. It was turning to gold, still getting it. I was at SeaTac this past weekend for hall of fame. Bauman: I saw that, the legion, yeah. Mitchell: I've always been involved. And right now, the one guy that was in the Pac-10 with me, there was nobody taking care like Columbia Basin College doing that. So we incorporated it. We own that, and now run it administratively. We just own that association. I'll take care of that. But Hanford's been good. The Tri-Cities has been--I call it virgin territory. And for me, traveling around—when I did get into human resources, well I would travel to different schools for science and engineers. And I got into that just by, the guy was going to go WSU and he says they had three schedules for interviews, and they only had two. And he says, you know how to talk about the lab, come on. So I go to WSU, and they've got three schedules. Two starts at 8:30, one start at 9. Well my training was sitting in with one of the other interviewers for 30 minutes—that was my training. Then you're on your own. And of course, then I end up doing all that. And then when I was out going to different place like Purdue, Michigan, Wisconsin, Donald, Stanford, and all those places. I always picked up a local newspaper, would start to look at what the economy was kind of like. And for the last 60 years, the Tri-City has been as good as any and better than most. I had opportunities to leave, but I wouldn't leave. Good place to raise families. The schools were good. And my wife was very active in--she stayed on top of things within the school boards, and the city council, and all that stuff. She was a real tiger there. But she always did her homework. And so we just always been involved. And I always encouraged other people to get involved, but it's hard sometimes to get them to do anything. But I always taught my kids to try things. Because you can always come back to nothing. And Art Linkletter, I heard him years ago say, if you're ever going to get any place, do anything, you got to take some chances. Got to stick your neck out. I never forgot that. Bauman: I was going to ask you, so you worked construction-- Mitchell: Sure. Bauman: --and then fuels prep, and then eventually human resources. Mitchell: You bet. Bauman: Of those three sorts of different kinds of jobs you had in Hanford, was there one that was sort of more challenging than the others, and maybe one that was more rewarding? Mitchell: They all were reward--I'll tell you, moving on to the research lab where they did examinations of the fuels and radiometallurgy, where they studied things, like what happened and why they failed and all that—that was tremendous. But the one thing that got me out to get me the exposure was human resources. And what happened there is, I went in one day and I had been doing what are called employee benefits or whatever. Administration and all that stuff. And I went and asked my manager for the job. And he said, you think you can handle that job? I said yeah, I've been doing it all the time. I said yeah, so he said okay, so he gave me a chance at it. And of course the people that was involved around it that I worked with, I didn't get any help there. But there happened to be a guy by the name of Bob Steiken, he was working in payroll—he was in payroll at a different building. And he was the guy that coached Little League baseball, and all the kids playing sports. And had a relationship with him and everything, and I'd get some information from him. I'd consult with him once in a while. And then also there was a guy by the name of Dick Dibble. And he was an attorney, and he had been a professor over on the coast. And he was an expert in group dynamics. And when they had the civil rights movement, they wanted—you would go and talk about the civil rights things and things that happen. And during that time, I would talk about my experiences. I would talk with groups about my experience and things like that. And then he was the guy they wanted, come on, and then I'd go and talk things like that. And he says, you know how to talk about this. Come on, we want to hear about your experience and all that stuff, like, talk about that. And then he taught me group dynamics. How to handle groups. For example, if when there's good information going, don't shut it off. If it wanes, redirect it. You know, he taught me group dynamics. And I watched and I learned. And I always pick people's brains. I sit and I'll listen all the time. I'd sit and I'd listen to staff meetings, whatever meeting. And then when they got ready to put in the 401(k) program--actually, I was doing employee benefits at that time. And then we'd go back to Columbus, and we got to go back to Columbus headquarters and learn about things, and we'd present and all these things. And then, the guy that was in payroll, and then we had employee benefits, and then there was industrial relations--that was all part of human resources. Well the guys in employment over there, they were in charge of us going round to the different groups in the lab and explaining these benefits, when they were going to sign up for their 401(k)s. And the guy that was in charge there was kind of a different kind of guy. He never helped me at all, he never helped me do anything. And they brought in another lady to help us out, and she was just like high school, and they taught her everything. But they never taught me anything. So now, when we're getting ready to go, we doing these seminars and these presentations and everything, well, he would do all the presentations and that. So I told my wife, I said, I know what he's going to do is later on, he's going to put me on the spot. I knew it was coming. And so what happened was, was that we went to the 200 Areas, and he made the presentation, oh, the first about 11:00, and then over the noon hour. And then we go to 200 West. He doesn't say anything to me about it. Get out group together, and he explained all that, and then he said CJ's going to do this one. I did it. I was ready. When I got done, there was two questions. Two questions, all. And on the way back, and we were about 200 Area, right where they built the Vit plant now, she looks over and she says, gosh CJ. She said, golly, you did good. And she said, there was only two questions. I didn't say anything. I just rode in back. But I knew he was going to put me on the spot. But I was ready. But I was ready. And so I always got my homework done. And that's why standing out there today, I was out there ten minutes before you. I was standing out waiting. Bauman: I know. I was going to ask you, I'm a little worried your mic is going to get caught there. If you could put your arm on the other side there, yeah, put your arm above the cord. There we go. As long as it doesn't-- Mitchell: It's been a great, it's been a great, great, great thing. And another thing is, is that when my oldest son--when my son now that's a judge, when he got out of Washington State and he was going to law school, and he was going to pass the bar and all that. One of the guys in my office there, one of the payroll guys there, was talking about how tough it was to pass the bar and all that. And we had a guy at Battelle in contracts that never did pass the bar. And he was in contracts, and what he was telling me really, oh, what he was telling me really, he's probably never going to pass the bar and all that kind of stuff, I didn't even worry about that. And then when our oldest son went to the Air Force Academy. And he went to Air Force Academy. But my wife was on top of everything, all the time. And one of the girls that--the girl, Anne Roseberry, down at the library, you know who she is? Bauman: Yeah, sure. Mitchell: Well she was a classmate of my oldest son. And her dad was a liaison for the Air Force Academy. And he asked her after school one afternoon, who are some of the young boys down there who would be worthy of maybe recommended for the Academy? And Duke was one of those guys. And he did. And then Greg, my second son, he went to Naval Academy. He went to Naval Academy prep school, but he didn't like it back there and he came back. He came back, went to CBC for a couple of weeks, and came home one day and threw his books away and told his mother, he said I'm not going back. He left, and he was gone for about three weeks, and he called up one day and she say, where are you? And he said I'm at the University of Puget Sound. He'd gone over, walked down, got him a scholarship, and she said, what made you go there? And he said I looked at their schedule and I saw they were going to Hawai’i next year. So one of his friends, Cary Randall, from Richland was over there too, so he had a chance to go there. And then my third son who's a fireman in Seattle, he went to Washington State University, when he could play. He could play baseball, or football, or basketball. But that was one kid that was anti-everything. He was going tell them how to run the program when he got over there, so they just told him to get lost. [LAUGHTER] They just told him to get lost. But he's doing well in Seattle, doing well. But anyway. And then my daughter, who's a sweetheart. And then Cameron, the one that was high school--Cameron, the judge, was a high school All-American in football and baseball. He was a first team All-American in football. And he still doesn't say much. He never did. Never did say much. But one thing I learned from kids is that we create all of our--most of our problems. For example, my uncle that lived here, the first one up in Pasco there. We went over one afternoon, and we were right about Road 68. Where Road 68 is now, coming home. And Richland and Pasco was playing one of these big rival games. And they wanted to buy hamburgers on the way home. And I said we're not going to buy hamburgers, we don't have any money. All you guys want to do is eat, we don't have any money to buy hamburgers. Well I get home, and I'm probably there ten minutes. And I'm walking through the house. You guys got to get ready, we got a ball game, if you don't go, we’ll leave you here. So he went to his mother, he says, I don't understand. He says, dad says we don't have money to buy hamburgers. He said but we're going to a basketball game. He said it takes money, he'll buy us anything we want once we get there. So if he'd never said that, I'd have never heard that. But it just tells you to be careful what you say. You create a lot of your own problems. I learned that. I observed that and paid attention to that. And also, he was always on the honor roll, and I told my wife, I says, God, he's always on the honor roll. I don't see him studying, how is he doing this? I'm wondering if he's cheating. So she told him about it, she said he says no, no, I study when I go to bed at night. He said when I go to my room at night, he said, I study. And he was the same way, he was same way all the way through. And he was an academic Pac-10 guy. And well when he got out of school, Buffalo wanted him to come back and run back [INAUDIBLE]. So he wouldn't. He said, I'm not that big, so he went to law school. And he was the same way there. He would just study, study hard. All the time, he always did. And so, here he is. But it's just been a nice, it's been a different road, all different, but very good. And my youngest son, Robin, my youngest son has got potential--I think--to make more money than all of them put together. If he could get it all together. I think he's got potential to make more than all of them together. Because his mind, the way he does things, and how he can put it together. And where the others are just completely different. Bauman: I wanted to ask you a couple more questions about your work at Hanford. First of all, did you have to—when you were working out there--did you have to have special security clearance, or-- Mitchell: Yes, you do. You have to have security clearance. Yeah, and it was very secret. All the time, secret. You just didn't talk about what you did. But you had to have security clearance all the time, yeah. Always security clearance. And also, during the early years, in the laboratory you had what they called--they had some pencils, they were the ones that could detect radiation, and that kind of thing. Very interesting work. Actually for me, very good work. Looking back at it, and how you had to go. But that break thing made me soft. I'd never heard of a break. I'll tell you, that was something else. I got so soft I couldn't--God, that was the worst, you know, physically. Bauman: I was going to ask you also about President Kennedy came in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor, I was asking about that. Mitchell: Yeah, you bet. Took my whole family to that. I had some 35 millimeter slides for a long time, I think I've still got them around someplace, when he came during that time. That was a great experience, yeah. Bauman: Do you have any specific memories of what the day was like, or-- Mitchell: Yeah, it was very hot. It was very hot, and lot of people went out and lot of people had car problems out there on that day. And what they did to get us out there, what they did--to make room, they had taken the graders and pushed back a lot of the sagebrush and stuff so we could go, a lot of people could get out there. It was a great thing. They came in by helicopter, oh, from Moses Lake. And that was really an interesting day. Bauman: You certainly have been in the Tri-Cities a long time, and seen a lot of changes. I wonder what some of the changes you've seen. Mitchell: The changes I've seen is in well, the racial situation has changed a lot. Of course you're never going to completely get rid of that, but it's changed a lot. Because I know there were times when you couldn't do things. They tell the stories about Kennewick. I don't know all about those things like that, but I know—with the troubles that I had. But one of the things that really was tough, my uncles that lived in East Pasco, with the relative citizens over there--before I moved to Richland, we had a group called the East Pasco Improvement Association, where we would clean up vacant lots and trash and try to get things cleaned up on our own. The streets were not paved, but my uncles, after I moved to Richland, they would go to city council and they would just get completely ignored there. And they were trying to get sewer—get sewer and pavement and things like that over there. And then, the people used to live in Pasco, as you go on the underpath, all to the right and to the left, hey lived all—especially to the right—all the way down to A Street, they lived all the way there. And then the city commercially pushed those people all the way from the railroad tracks, all the way out to right where Kurtzman Park is now. They pushed those people all the way back out there, and all the way through. They had people all the way down in there, there were people who lived in there. So they pushed them out of there and pushed them back farther out. But they went through a hard time on there, trying to get their water and sewer, and getting the streets and all that paved, and that sort of thing. And then of course, as far as the schools were concerned in Richland, my kids didn't have a lot of trouble. But--the schools were excellent--but what happened is, my wife, she always went to PTAs, she stayed involved. We got them into scouts, Little League programs, all organized stuff. And so they had a chance to participate. And we also, when I first came to Richland, you had to fill out an application and tell what religion are you. When I put down Protestant, well in about a day or day and a half, the people from Richland Baptist Church—just right down here on GW Way—my kids grew up in that church. And that's a Southern Baptist Church which say they were not racially happy to have you there. But you know what, they treated us good there. We went there, we learned a lot, a lot of things you learned there, a lot of things were different. As the kids got older, people kind of thought maybe my son wanted to marry some of their daughters or something. But anyway, I learned a lot there and I went there and everything and it turned out good. Of course, because I wanted the kids to be able to participate where they live. I didn't want to drive back to East Pasco every Sunday or something. Soon as I get out of school, I'd run there. No, I want them to participate where we are and where we live. And that turned out good in that way. And we lived down at 100 Craig Hill when we first moved to town, and then we moved to 612 Newcomer. That was right after I couldn't buy the house that I ended up at Newcomer, ended up there. And then we could walk. They hadn't had that development down where Safeway and all that is there. We used to walk down, the kids walked across that field to church right there. And so I wanted to be able to go to church and they would participate with the people they go to school with and they see every day. Bauman: After you moved in and got your house in Richland, did you see Richland start to open up a little bit more? See more African Americans at all, or-- Mitchell: Yeah, it did open up a little bit. Especially, well see, when the government owned it—I think there was a guy named Fred Baker and Fred Clardy when I moved. But anyway, because other people moved to Richland. Mr. Wallace did, Mr. Rockamore moved there, the Burns moved there, because they got jobs. And then as things developed in long about '65, and when I bought my house in '76 down here, then the Burns bought a house, then some other people bought. The Browns, CW, and those guys, they bought homes and that. And CW and Norris Brown, in fact they were from my hometown. And their dad and my dad worked on the Texas Pacific Railroad together. And that time when we moved to Hermiston in '51, to work on McNary Dam, well that dad worked over there too. They went to middle school over there. When the middle schools came over here to play these guys, those guys just literally tore them apart. So when Mr. Brown moved back and they started working here, well they got a job for Mr. Brown so those kids could go to school over here and play basketball. And they also were in the trailer court. They lived in the trailer court, the Brown boys did. And they went to John Ball School. There was a little elementary school up here called John Ball, and that's where they went to school—elementary school. Then from there, they moved to Hermiston, played and then they come back, and then they went to Richland High, and all of that. That's how we all got back over here. We moved around where the work was. And so it turned out that they'd done well. I think we've done well, considering the opportunities. We just moved ahead. You can't change things. So you have to make the best of what it is. And that's what we tried to do. Bauman: So overall, how was Hanford as a place to work for you? Mitchell: Well for me, it was all right. Course, construction, you know, guys, I just do my job. I didn't get involved in talking about what the government was doing and all that kind of stuff, I didn't worry about the politics, I just did my job. And I tried to learn as much as I could learn, and I always paid attention to what's going on, what they doing, and how they're doing it and everything. And I always just paid attention, that's what I tried to do. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to talk about, that we haven't talked about yet? Mitchell: What now, anything-- Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about yet-- Mitchell: Oh, let's see. No, no I don't think so. I think you're okay, and if you think of something you can always call me or something. Well, I've gone through all of it, and I didn't see any blood at the end. And I think people know when I walk down the street, I think people are not going to bother me. In fact, speaking of that, I coached baseball. I didn't coach the Little League, but I coached the next one, they call it Pointer League, 13, 14, all the way up through Legion, back in Legion. I coached that, and was very successful at it. And what I would do is, when I would work the games at Washington State or wherever I was, at night I'd make notes of what happened, what they did, how they did it, and in what situations they did that. And then when I coached, I had winning teams here. Turned out everybody wanted to play for me. I took them to California, and to state tournament, which they hadn't been before. And so it got so that if I wanted to go for walk, I had to go down by the river. If I'm walking down the street, screech! Mr. Mitchell, you need a ride? No, I'm fine. Pretty soon, screech, you need a ride, Mr. Mitchell? That's a good feeling, to be able to walk and people want to stop and give you a ride. That's a good feeling. So you just never know, you just do the best you can, do what you know to do, and do it right. I never felt like holding grudges, or anything like that. Don't have time. Don't have time for that. I'd get it done. The one thing, I would never make a social worker too good. The reason being is that nobody ever gave me anything—I mean anything. And for those people that can't work, they can babysit or do something for those that can work. And I know that people, if they have to, they can--and I was going to Seattle the other day, my wife and I, there was people picking apples, Saturday morning. It was cold. Sunday, they were picking apples. As long as there's work, you can go do it. I just think nobody have to give you anything. You got health and strength, you can go work. You can go do stuff. Just get out of your way and give you opportunity and make it out there and go get it. And to think about we have to bring people from Mexico in to do all of our work and harvest all our crops. You got to do it because we don't want to do it I guess. I guess Americans don't like to work in the field, do that straining of work. And the other thing is, Dr. Bauman, if we could get people to officiate sports--and I don't care what sport it is—we could solve unemployment problems. Kids keep coming. There's no downsizing. The least you're going to make in any kind of a youth sport, like AAU or middle school basketball, is about two to three times minimum wage per hour. You're going to make somewhere between 20 and 30 bucks an hour, just officiating basic sports. Just going down here at 4:00 in the afternoon on Saturdays. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do all of that. And it's out there. And everybody says, we don't want to do it. In the clinic, we teaching clinic, and the guy says, well, what do you think is the worst thing about it? Well, maybe I'll make a call or something that costs the game, some parents are mad at me, angry at me. I said well, just think about when you're learning to drive a car. When you first started driving a car, you weren't very good at it. But as you got better at it, you learned. Your parents let you drive it to the store, and then pretty soon on GW Way, and pretty soon you drive to Pasco and Kennewick, pretty soon the freeway, and pretty soon you get pretty good at it. Then you can go to Seattle and drive on the freeway in the city. And I said, you have to do it a step at a time. That's how you do it. So to me, there's no such thing as an excuse. My grandfather says that—on my mom's side, because I don’t know my grandfather on dad's side--he said, there's no such thing as excuse. He says, in Cunningham, killed can't, and whipped couldn't until he could. He said there's no such thing as an excuse. And I know. I kind of like that, because you can always do something. If you can't do it, like I said, you can babysit for somebody that can do something. And I get after people all the time. There was a guy at Richland, his son played basketball. Couple years ago, three years ago now. Good ball player, 6'6". And his dad was a big guy, he played pro-basketball or something. And he says, I'm kind of a guy that like to stay back. I said, what? He said, I kind of like to stay back and stay out of things. I said, well I think you ought to move up, not stay in back. I said. That's the problem. I said, get up here and see what's going--get in the middle of things, and see what's going on. That's how you get there. And I learned one thing, Dr. Bauman—if you go to someplace all the time, you don't have to say anything to anybody. But after a few times, somebody's going to stop you and talk to you and ask you a question, because they figure must interested because you came. And they going to stop and ask you a question. And I sit and I’ve observed it all the time, and I look at people and I say, well. Of course it's easy for me, maybe. But for them it's probably hard. But if you just get out and participate, you just get out and see what's going on, it can do a lot for you. It can do an awful lot for you. Bauman: I want to thank you very much for coming here today and talking to us. Mitchell: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Bauman: Always good to see you. Mitchell: Yeah, it's always good to see you. Bauman: Thanks very much. Mitchell: It's a great community. And the other thing about opportunity, just get out of my way, I don't expect anybody to hand me anything. Just move over, I'll get it. And I always told my kids that. And they know how to talk to people, they know how to tell you if they disagree without calling you a bunch of names—without calling you a bunch of names and throwing a fit. They can disagree. And the other thing I wanted them to learn to do was to get up in front of a microphone and say thank you. That sort of thing. Yeah. Well, I got plenty to do-- Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:00:29 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 188 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 200-East Area 200 Area 100-H N Reactor 325 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1948-1965 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. McCormack, Mike Kathren, Ron Dibble, Dick Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with CJ Mitchell Description An account of the resource An interview with CJ Mitchell conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) 100-H 200 Area 200-East Area 300 Area 325 Building 3760 Building DuPont General Electric N Reactor Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffe043af3846776e389ff8a8681a88431.jpg 1d9746b2f7feed8074166fc471965977 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F36e58cb630d8fbdedc6ee21db97c8258.mp4 06e803929dbc9370d6cde92f8b1e162e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Northwest Public Television | Kaas_Gordon </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Robert Bauman: So just for official purposes, my name is Robert Bauman and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Gordon Kaas. Is it Kaas? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Gordon Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. On June 12, 2013. And the interviews are being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Kaas about his family's history and memories about their experiences in Richland growing up in that community. So maybe, Mr. Kaas, you can tell me, first of all, a little bit about your family and maybe how your family came to the Richland area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well my father was an immigrant from Denmark and he came here right after the turn of century. Lived in Madras, Oregon for a while and his brother was up here in Richland. He come up here and he was a farmer. He bought some ground here in what's North Richland and planted the majority of the acreage to apples. His brother took care of the orchard for about the first three years while he lived in Madras, Oregon. That's where he met my mother and they were married. And they moved up here I think it was 1915, after the orchard began to bear. My oldest brother was born in Madras, and then I've got two older brothers, Nelson and George, that were born here, plus my only sister, and then myself and my twin brother. The three older brothers are deceased now but my sister and my twin brother are still living. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And do they live in the area here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: My sister lives in Kennewick. That's Alice Chapman, her husband James, live in Kennewick. And my twin brother and I married sisters, but they live in Kenai, Alaska. And he was a plumber. When I got out of high school, we had moved to Kennewick in 1943, because the government said to pack your belongings and go, you've got 30 days. However, we lived far enough north that they gave permission for those that lived up on from here, there's a little rise in the contour, that area they let farm their crop that year. So instead of moving in February or March, we didn't move until November of 1943. That's where the remaining five of the six children were born. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So you'd mentioned your father came from Denmark. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what you know about why he came to the United States, and maybe the same for your mother. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, my mother was an immigrant also, emigrated from Prince Edward Island, Canada. And I had the pleasure of visiting back there this past summer. First time I'd ever been there. My father came over because of the opportunities that were in the US, and there was a lot of people moving to the New World. His background was farming. I think I mentioned he was the youngest of 12 children, and two brothers and a sister had immigrated over here ahead of him. So he had a little forewarning of what was here. And at that time, this area here in Hanford and White Bluffs was a fairly new irrigation area and was attracting people from around the country, and around the world, I guess you could say. Because there was other Danes and Norwegians and Swedes here. When I was small, when I grew up, we had an apple orchard. But during the Depression in the ‘30s, apples was one thing that people didn't have to have and consequently, the market went away. And at that time, peppermint was coming in and he hired a county bulldozer to come in and bulldoze the trees out and planted peppermint. And raised peppermint, as long as we was on the farm. I should clarify that in 1949 I lost my father, and I and my twin brother were between our sophomore and junior year in high school, so we became the farmers. And that was after we had moved from Richland to Kennewick. We had a 40 acre farm here in Richland and the war took my three oldest brothers. My father had the option of keeping one of them at home to help on the farm, but he wouldn't do that. My sister, and my twin brother and myself became farmers fairly quick. And then we moved to Kennewick in 1943, and in 1948 he had come down with cancer. And in '49, he passed away in the middle of August of '49. By that time my twin brother and I was the only ones still in school and we became students and farmers both. And then after we graduated from high school, my mother leased the place out. And I ended up taking a job out in Hanford. I worked out there for 21 years, but never got the thought of the farm out of my head. In 1972 my wife and I and we had two children at that time, a son and a daughter. And we bought a farm six miles north of Pasco. And that's been our home ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So you returned to your farming roots? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Yeah. What about your mother? You said your father passed away, unfortunately, in 1949. How about your mother? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: My mother lived for some years later. I think she died in-- I can't remember the date on it like I can my father—but in the mid '70s. I think it was '78 that she passed away. And at that time the farm was being sold for plots for houses, and now it's all houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So how many so how many children were there in your family then? How many siblings did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: There were six. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Six, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I had three older brothers. Then my sister come along. And then to finish out the six was my twin brother and I. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: You and your twin brother. And you and your twin brother were born in hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: We were the only ones that were born in the hospital. Because thought there might be some complications. So we were born in the Pasco Lady of Lourdes Hospital. The rest were all at home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And you talked about how the primary crop was apples for quite a while until at some point in the Depression you shifted to peppermint. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And were there other crops that you grew as well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, we had of course, alfalfa because we had a few livestock. We had asparagus. And that was up early and that was the asparagus fields. My three older brothers were in the service. Two of them in the Army and one in the Navy. We'd get up early and go cut asparagus. And when we were left on our farm through the summer we'd see everything booming out here, trucks going by. We lived right on George Washington Way. And we'd be out in the field and watching the trucks headed north where the construction was going on. And we had strawberries. We had a few potatoes. Then, of course, peppermint. And all that ground was real irrigated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: How was that irrigated? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Real irrigated where you had corrugates that the water ran down. And so I was changing water twice a day. And my father worked from daybreak to dawn. But as time went on, we were more help. After the military took my three brothers my dad bought a tractor. And he didn't like the tractor. He liked the horses. So my twin brother and I, we got a lot of practice on the tractor. He put us out on the field and get us started and he'd go do some other chores. We, my twin brother and I, we continued to farm the Kennewick farm. Which, was downsized. It was only 20 acres. At that time though, you could make a living on a farm that size. But I lost my oldest brother in the war. And the next oldest one was in the Army and over in Germany. And the third from the top was in the Navy and over in the Pacific. And after the war was over they came home and took jobs out at Hanford, my remaining two brothers. And when I finished school I got a job out there. And my brother worked out there. My twin brother worked out there on construction. I was a power operator. And in 1972 I'd been wanting to get out on a farm and I said, I got to make the move before I'm 40 or I'm going to give it up. And we found a place to buy. And it's been good to us. My main crop, it started off being alfalfa and wheat and sweet corn. But after a couple years I got into raising potatoes. And that ended up being our main crop until I quit farming. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Got it. Let me just go back and ask you another question, too, about your family farm that you grew up on. So were there other buildings besides the houses? The barn? Any other buildings? And you said it was 40 acres. Is that correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: 40. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And so I wonder how large the house was? Were there any other buildings as well that were part of the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, back then it didn't take as much a house as it does today. When my folks moved up here from Madras, Oregon--and I can't tell you--I think it was around 1917 or 1918. They had the ground but there was no buildings on it. But there was a small house. I think it was about a two-room house that my dad's brother and him moved from what would be over on--is that--what street is that? Over to the west? Anyway, they moved it from there to onto Georgia Washington Way where we lived. And then he added onto that. And then just before the government came in, we had enlarged the house and the next year was another project to finish it. But it started off being a two bedroom. And small ones at that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Now, it was originally, was there an outhouse? What did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: We didn't have neither electricity or running water in the house until--it was about 1940. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So not too long before the war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah. And that was a big improvement. My mother didn't have to pack water for the washing machine or carry it out. But we didn't have any electricity. So the washing machine had a little gas engine on it. And like most, Monday was wash day. And that'd be all she'd get done except cooking some meals. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So was there a well? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, we had a well. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: That was before my time. But I remember that he had a nephew that came over from Denmark plus my uncle lived here and there was a hand-dug well. And that was on the property that is the Energy Northwest headquarters now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, okay. And what about neighbors? Who were your closest neighbors? Were there other families that you socialized with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, yes. We had one neighbor that lived right across the road. And others close. I can say there was one, two, three--about five that lived in walking distance. You know, a 20-minute walk at the most. It was interesting. In the early spring of 1943 there was a number of cars that had come into town. And they were driving different places. It was late enough that some farmers were out in the field. The next day they were all in town at the schoolhouse. And they called to me and said that the whole community, including White Bluffs in Hanford was being evicted for a government project. And that's all they would say. Nobody knew what was ready going on out there until after the bombs were dropped. And it was interesting when those people that were here driving in cars were appraisers. And they were going around and appraising the farms of how much to give the farmers for it. Some got very nervous. They thought if you didn't take the first, they might just haul you out in handcuffs or whatever. But they allowed if you didn't accept for the third appraisal. My father accepted the third appraisal. My grandmother, she got nervous. And they got her to sign. I think it was on the second appraisal. But my father, if you didn't sign and take the third appraisal, then they would take it to court. But they give you, I think it was 80% of the offer. And there were a few that took it to court. But my father thought the--But the surprising part about that is the farmers that took the money and couldn't find a farm, the price of the farmland was going up so fast that what would buy a farm when they got the money, a year later was probably only half enough. So those people put a hardship on them. But I can't say our situation put a hardship. Because we was able to find a farm and it was a good form. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Do you have any idea how much your parents got for the farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You know, I've been wondering that myself. But what I can tell you is that the 20 acre farm we got, it had a big house on it. It had a five-bedroom house plus porch, front and back. It was $7,200. And I'm sure it was in that neighborhood, maybe a little more. Because it was 40 acres rather than 20. And it was the only house still standing in North Richland until it too was torn down oh, 15, 20 years ago. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, it stood for that long? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, because the criteria was that if it had indoor plumbing and electricity they would save it if they could and somebody would move into it. And a patrolman that was hired by the--well, I guess it was GE back then. Or no, it was DuPont. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: DuPont? Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: He wanted that house. And he got the okay on it. But he would come by about every three or four days and see what the progress was of us moving out. He was anxious to move in. There was a shortage of homes. And it was used for living for a few years and then it was right in the middle of that big trailer camp that was out here. And it was turned into the office for the trailer camp. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So he moved in shortly after your grandma left then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. When he could see the date that we was going to be out, he had his stuff packed and ready to move. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And so how old are you at this time? About 9 or 10 years old? Somewhere in there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I was 12 years old when we moved. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: So we moved and we were still moving in November. Because that's when my birthday is. And I remember the time we took the tractor with a big trailer we had behind it with some of the last things. And my dad let me drive it after we got off the highway. I was 12 years old. And our farm, in Kennewick, the address was 3904 West Fourth Avenue now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So what did you think about this at the time as a young boy? You had spent your whole life, at that point, on this farm. And you're suddenly having to move. What did you think? And do you know what your parents thought? Did you talk to them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, we spent a lot of time driving around to find a farm. We looked up a lot up Prosser Way. I can remember sitting out in the yard there for a couple of hours, my mother and dad talking. And there was a nice big house, older house. It was a little smaller farmer than we had gotten. They finally decided they would take it. And my dad went to the door and said, we've talked it over and we'd like to buy your farm. And they said, well, we're sorry. My husband's down at the court house signing papers on it now. So we were back to looking again. But you can imagine a 12-year-old. We thought this was kind of a thrill, driving around looking at farms and discussing it and where we was going to live. And I can remember several farms we looked at that some of them had a nice house. But the property wasn't the best. The soil wasn't the best. But we was happy when we settled on this one in Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So for you, maybe the fact that you ended up with a nice farm in Kennewick-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, it was a nice farm. Kennewick is a little bit rocky. But it's bearable. The farm we had out here in Richland was a lot more sandy. But heavier soil, you can raise better crops. But sandy soil is easier to farm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So I want to go back to also talking about your early years here. Where did you go to school? And what was the school like? And how many? How big was the school? That sort of thing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: The school I went to was built in--which was Lewis and Clark school down in south Richland. And the year I started there it was brand new. Because of the Depression there was money for stuff like that, to generate employment. And Hanford got a new school. And Richland got a new school. And that's where I started the first grade, my twin brother and I. My sister was four years ahead of us. So she was in an old school that they immediately tore down after the new school was built. But my dad was a well thought of man here in this area. And when the irrigation district was in, neighbors twisted his arm till he agreed to go on the board for irrigation. Same for the school district. He was on the board, directors there. In fact, he was the president of the board and signed a couple of my brothers' diplomas. And after we moved, well, some would know Jay Perry, who was a county commissioner in Kennewick. And he came and wanted my dad to run for his place. They talked quite a while. And my dad said, well, Jay, that would never work, because you're a Democrat and I'm a Republican. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: He said, I'd do anything to get you in. Whether you're a Republican or not. So that's the only way I knew of what his preference of party. But there was, for farmers back then, there was more done for the farmers than a lot of people. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So do you know how big the school was? Do you know how many students there were about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, it was an eight-room school, first through the eighth grade. And I would say, there was probably on the average of at least 20 in each class. Then when things got a little tougher, first, well, second grade and half of third was in one room. And the other half of third and the fourth grade was in another room. So they were small enough then that they could do that. But that school was tore down for the replacements that there are now. But it was a nice all-brick school that for old time's sake, I hated to see it go. But both of my children started in that school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, did they really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: For first grade. Because we lived in the south end of Richland at that time. And our--what is the--the Justice over in Pasco, he went to that school. My son went with him. Cameron Mitchell. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, Cameron Mitchell, sure. So what sorts of things did you do for recreational activities growing up on your farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Oh, main thing for recreational was work. But we did have time. And when we were little my dad didn't require us to--We never were slave labor by any stretch. But we'd roller skate out on the road. There wasn't very many cars. And we'd play hide and seek and one thing my dad let us do is a couple horse to an old sled that we had that was about four by six, to a horse. And take our dog and we'd go out hunting jackrabbits. Didn't have a gun. But that dog could catch the jackrabbits. And we'd probably get five or six every time we went out. They'd be just wandering out through the sagebrush. We was out at the edge of the farming community here in Richland. So there's plenty of sagebrush ground. And we thought that was great, to go out with the dog. My twin brother and I, and my three cousins from over on the coast would come here. I got a picture of it. Looking at it yesterday, that all five of us on that sled, out jackrabbit hunting. But just things like that. What kids do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Bicycles. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh. Yeah. So you were on a farm. Did you go into town much? Into the town of Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, it was a five-mile drive on the school bus. Back then we didn't have these factory-made school buses. Generally a farmer would say, I'd like to build a bus and hire it to haul the students. Well, there was an aisle down the center that you sat back to back to and then down each side. And it was just made out of an old truck. And we didn't know what heaters were. Wintertime got pretty cold. But-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> [PHONE RINGS] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: No cellphones then, either. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: No cellphones then either. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I meant to take it out. But I forgot it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: That's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I think I was in about the third grade when we got factory manufactured school buses. And they looked as long as a train. And there was three of them. And that picked up students all over the Richland area. And then it wasn't too long after that the government came in and the area just exploded. And it was surprising when you had to, how fast they could put buildings up. They had people in here. They added onto the school and built more schools. But after '43 I wasn't here much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Did you start going to school in Kennewick then at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. I think I was in the fifth grade when we moved to Kennewick. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I was wondering about sort of community activities. Do you have any memories of community picnics or 4th of July celebrations? Anything along those lines? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, yes. In that time, the boat races--that would be equivalent to what we have now here in the Tri-Cities—was up at White Bluffs. And I remember, several times being young, going up there and watch the boat races. And then there was community picnics. I remember looking at some books at the county fair, before they registered at the picnics, they had them. Found a couple where my folks, my dad registered as being at the picnic, 4th of July picnic, I think they were. Then there was plenty of family gatherings. Maybe two, three, four families would get together and go to the park. But I don't know, it never seemed like we lacked activity. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: What about churches? Were churches close by? Did your family go to church regularly? And where were they? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: What, church, you say? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah, churches. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, my folks heard the Gospel by two homeless ministers in 1921. And the church met in a home. And I'm still in that faith today. We don't have church buildings. So there was churches in town. But they accepted that way and the family grew up in it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. So you mentioned earlier, talking about the Depression, and how your father then sort of changed crops, right? Primary crops. Did you know of any families in the area that maybe lost their farms? Or did you see any other impact of the Depression for other families or for the town itself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, my uncle lost his--that lived, oh, half mile or less from us. And I remember my dad saying he wanted him to financially help him. He was a bachelor. He had never married until he was 82, I think. And then he married his sweetheart that he had when he was young. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: And neither one of them, they were married. They got back together in old age. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: That's quite a story. Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: But anyway, my dad had to decline him because he said, Jim, I've got a family. And if I did that I would probably lose my farm too. And you're single. Realized I hate to say no. But I just don't have it where I can feel that I could do it. And there were others the same way. But you have to remember that I was-- that was not something I can physically remember. I was too early in the '30s. I was born in '32. I remember him talking about ones that sold out or it didn't have any equity and couldn't make payments. But my father was very frugal. He didn't buy what he couldn't afford, which was very little, that he bought. But yes, when my father decided to push out the orchard, we had a big enough orchard. In fact, it was the largest apple orchard in the Tri-Cities. I can't tell you how many acres it was. But it was 15 acres or so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Do you know what kind of apples? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: At that time, Red Delicious. But he made the decision to take the apples out, because every year he'd be losing a little more money. And plant peppermint. Well, 100 pounds to the acre of peppermint oil was considered excellent. And I never remember him getting less than 100 pounds. And I remembered selling for $7 a pound. And today the price of oil isn't that much better. It's just that the farmers' farms are a lot bigger. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I think, from what I've heard, I know some people that are farming peppermint and $9 or $10 I think would be an excellent price now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So what happened with your uncle then? He lost his farm you said? What did he do at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: My uncle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: He moved to Oregon. And lived in Troutdale for quite a while. I think he just hired out. He was a stonemason, brick mason. And I think he made a living at that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I want to ask you a little bit about, you talked about the war a little bit and that your older brothers all joined and went to serve. Do you remember hearing about the war? And have any memories about that at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah, when the war come on, some time during that we got a radio. And I know my dad listened to the news every evening. My oldest brother, Edward, that was born in Oregon and was the only one that wasn't born here, was drafted into the Army. And he took his training down in one of the southern states. I can't remember for sure now if it was Texas, or--. Anyway, they ended up sending him to a little place by Washington, D.C. that they call Vint Hill Farms. And it was a training, a special training area. And he worked there as, we'd probably called it a cadre that helps do training. But there everything was coal fired. So in the wintertime they had to keep the furnace going and the hot water heater going and snow removal or whatever. And he never did go overseas. But he was on a laundry run. And he was riding in the back of a deuce and a half army truck. And a Lincoln hit the truck head on. And he was thrown up against the cab and killed. So he wasn't-- he didn't see overseas action. But I remember that was a sad day for the family. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I imagine. You mentioned having the radio. Did your family get that before the war or at some point during the war, you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: It was during the war. I don't remember. We didn't have a radio while we were still in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, okay. You got it after you have moved to Kennewick at some point. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. So how did you get news when you were in Richland? Was there a local newspaper? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yeah, there was a newspaper. And don't ask me if it was daily or weekly or semi-weekly. But well, I guess, in the old days, we took the Spokesman Review. I don’t think--there wasn't a local newspaper. There might've been a weekly. But you're getting too far back in my brain. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, do you know how your family found out about the war, that United States was going to war? Was it through the newspaper? Or sort of word of mouth? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I think all the above. You know, neighbors were close and we did get the Spokesman Review. And I don't know if it was a day late. I think it came down on the train. So it could be the same day. At that time Pasco, its main industry was the train. A train town. And Richland was just a little farming community along with White Bluffs and Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Right. And then was it in the spring of '43 that you first heard about that the government was coming in and was going to be taking people-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes, yes. 1943. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: But your family, you have sort of the rest of that growing season. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, it must've been later in February or maybe first part of March that that happened. I suppose there's some way I could find out. But I do know that the ones that lived in what we call downtown Richland didn't get to stay and farm their crop. And we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Yeah. I wonder if there's anything that we haven't talked about yet that you think would be important to talk about, something you know, about growing up in Richland, about the community itself, about farming? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, we had a great swimming pool, Columbia River. Also fishing. Never had a fancy fishing pole. But go down to the river and cut off a large willow, tie the line on the end of it. Works good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] What sort of fish did you catch with that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Probably mostly carp. Occasionally we'd get an edible fish. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: But we enjoyed doing it. Some real hot days, the whole family would go to the river. Our firewood, you could put on what they call a boom out on the river. It'd be several logs fastened together with chain or cable. And have an anchor out on the upper end. So it would catch all the wood that was coming down. And that's where we got the firewood. And for the icebox, we'd go down and my dad would saw chunks of ice out of the river and we had a sawdust bin that we would bury the ice in there and it would last long ways into the summer. So things were a little bit crude back then. But none of us died from it. We all made it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Right. [LAUGHTER] What about in the winter? You know, in terms of the river, the river ever freeze over? What sorts of things did you do? Any things that you can say-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: All I can remember about that is that what I've been told. I think I was about two years old when it froze over. And they even drove cars across it. I don't think we had any bridges at that time. It was a ferry that would ferry cars across. And it seems like the winters don't get as cold as they used to here. I don't know if it's a cycle or what it is. But my younger years, we could ice skate on the river, most all winters. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. So that was something you did in the winter then for fun? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I don't remember doing a whole lot. But you know, the river is dangerous, and we knew it back then, if the ice only goes out a small ways. So my folks wouldn't--I just know that my folks wouldn't have let us go to the river to ice skate if the ice wasn't thick enough. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And you mentioned a ferry. Where was the ferry landing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, there was the ferry landing down at what's Columbia Point, I think, now. And there was another one between Kennewick and Pasco. There was another one up at Hanford, one across. It would come and go as the need was. But I remember the first bridge across the Columbia was long enough ago that I can't really remember it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Okay. I want to ask you a little bit about your employment at Hanford. When did you start working at Hanford? And how long did you work there? And what sort of work did you do there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I graduated high school in 1951. And of course, we were still farming the ground. I did take a job in wheat harvest. And my brother stayed and did the chores that had to be done through the summer. And so my mother paid him what I made, the same amount that I made. So it was like both of us having a job. After wheat harvest was over in September of 1952--I think it was, yeah, 1952--I want out and applied for work at Hanford. And I got a job in the power department, running the steam boilers and turbines and that's out there. And I worked there for 14 years. It was all under GE then. I finished up in what was called the N Reactor. And that's when they built a steam power plant just across the fence from the N Reactor. And I applied for a job there with, at that time was the Washington Public Power. Now it's Energy Northwest. And I stayed there until '72 when I got the crazy idea of being a farmer again. And haven't really regretted it. You go from being carrying a dinner pail to being a businessman in one sense. It takes a lot of money to farm these days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Man 1: Sorry, one last time. It looks like battery. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Man 2: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Man 1: Pretty low. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You can prompt me on anything you want to. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: What's that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You can prompt me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, okay. I'm going to ask you just a little bit more about you working at Hanford. You mentioned working for GE and at the N Reactor, and ask you where else at Hanford you worked? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: You asked me where I met my wife. I can give you a little more on that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: There you go. And then I may ask you about I know President Kennedy had the official ceremony, right, in '63. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And I'll ask you if you were there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I was still working for GE. And it was Thursday morning. I had to work a swing shift that day. So I just stayed out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: So you mentioned working for GE for a number of years. And then you said you ended up with you working at the N Reactor. I wonder before that, what other parts of the Hanford site you worked at? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I started at the C Reactor in the power department. C. B and C were right together. Actually it was the B reactor. Then I got drafted in the army. And in December I went in the service to--they sent my back to Virginia for training. And when the training with over, took a troop ship to Korea. I spent two years in Korea. Part of the time I was first service. War was still on. And then after my two-year stay I came home and they put me back on out there. At that time I'd been communicating with my future wife. And my twin brother, he had a bad ear and they wouldn't accept him. Ironically we was going with sisters. But they weren't twins. And so they decided to get married. So they got a two-year head start on us when I came home. Well, my wife, Beverly, and I got married. And been married ever since. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And how had the two of you met? When did you meet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: We was in school together. And the same way with my brother and his wife. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And so how many years is that now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Boy, you're-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] I'm testing him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Off camera speaker: It'll be 60 next year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: That's-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Wow, almost 60. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: It's getting awful close to 60. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Yeah, wow. And so you mentioned you were in Korea for two years. And the war was still going on when you first arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And what sorts of-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I went in and they put me in the medics. And I took my medic training down in Camp Pickett, Virginia. And then sent me to Korea. I was a medic. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And then one other thing I wanted to ask you about, during your time working at Hanford, President Kennedy was here in, I believe it was September of '63. August or September of '63 to dedicate the N reactor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: I was wondering if you were there at that time and if you have memories of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: I was. I was there. And witnessed his groundbreaking. He flew in in a helicopter and flew out in a helicopter. I think probably went up to Moses Lake, where they parked the plane. And it was interesting that I happened to be on the swing shift at that time. So when the ceremony was over I had to go over to the plant and start my shift. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Was there extra security that day? Or do you have any memories of a lot of people there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Very much so. You know, that was just not long before he was assassinated. And there was a lot of security. There was three helicopters came in. And the doors opened on all three of them. They come to land, you didn't know which one he was on. But the first thing you seen was they pulled a machine gun up in the doorway. And they looked all directions before they left anybody off. And there was a big crowd there. That was very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Were there any other events during your time when you worked at the Hanford site that sort of stand out? Any significant happenings or anything that sort of stands out in your memory? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: They formed a rescue crew out there. They outfitted an older bus. And I think there was about three or four different crews, maybe five. We never did get called to an event, like there's been several around the United States since. But that's what we were trained for. And I was on one of those crews because I'd been a medic in the army, was the reason they put me on there. We had drills. But never had to go to an actual event. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And obviously Hanford was a place where security was very important. Did you do have to have a special clearance to work there? Or what do you remember about some security processes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, yes. I had what they called a Q clearance, which was top clearance, with everybody that was full time employed. That the only ones that would get out there was if they had to have a special person, something broke down and had to go out there. And then he had to have an escort. And they told us that you don't talk about what work it is on the job. But at that time, Hanford wasn't classified top secret anymore. After the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that's when they found out what Hanford was building. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Were you able to drive your own car out to the site where you were working? Or would you have to take a bus? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Oh, we had to take an expensive bus ride. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: They charged us a nickel each way. And nobody could afford to drive their cars. If you did, you car pooled. But because the buses didn't have any air conditioning, just the windows. But as long as I worked for GE I rode the bus. When I started working for Washington Public Power we car pooled. They didn't have an option. But they paid us for travel time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: And how long did you work for Washington Public Power then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Seven years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Seven years. '65 to '72? So anything else that I haven't asked you about, either about growing up on the farm here in Richland or about your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about or you think is important that we haven't talked about yet? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Something serious? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Oh, either way. No, it can be funny. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, I remember when my twin brother and I was out and we had a watermelon patch. And we thought it was time to pick the watermelons. And we'd pick a whole pile of them. My dad said, well, those aren't ripe yet. We'll have to feed those to the pigs. So the pigs got watermelon early. But you know, we would--that's some of our pastime would be walk around the neighbors and such. There wasn't too many dull moments. Especially, my mother used to say that when you have twins, well, one can't think of the other kin. So I guess you can take from that what you want. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. If you had to sort of sum up for someone who wouldn't know much about the area, what it was like growing up in the small community at the time, growing up on a farm at the time, what would you tell them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Well, that there wasn't many dull moments. I think there's an advantage that kids today don't have. We grew up having responsibility to know that there might be a little time for play. But they're also work to be done. I can remember going out in the fields of whole peppermint and my dad would take two rows where my brother and I, we'd take one apiece and pull the weeds out. And we'd fill up a gallon jug of water. Had a burlap sack wrapped around it and dipped it in water before we went out. And that would keep cool. That was our drinking water. Had to come in in time for chores. We milked as many as five head of cows. But at the time my dad got sick we only had two milk cows. And a couple of horses and several young stock. And then there was 4H and FFA. That was after we moved to Kennewick. I can't remember much more about Richland, only being 12 years old and there's probably more. But I'll think about it after our interview is over. I remember riding the bus was quite a treat. When we got the new buses in Richland it was, as I said, I think I was in about the third grade. It was quite a treat. And they said there was heaters in them. But we couldn't tell when winter come. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Didn't feel like it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: They weren't very efficient. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Bauman: Well, thank you very much. This has been really interesting, very informative. I appreciate it. You’ve been great. Thanks very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691"> Kaas: Have you interviewed others? </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gordon Kaas Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:02:57 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 232kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor B Reactor C Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1915-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1952-1972 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kaas, Nelson Kaas, George Kaas, Edward Chapman, Alice Perry, Jay Mitchell, Cameron Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Kaas Description An account of the resource An interview with Gordon Kaas conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-8: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/12/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. B Reactor C Reactor Hunting Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) swimming White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff428b88f5b77ccce1fd1fab7bbd4a97c.jpg 53ac2b07373133ea3a62bc18f062b9c6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F59604beaf31c3557f1ecee91ad472fee.mp4 53f23bcda9dffb6be8f5472ee8bbb015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Herman Kilian Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Northwest Public Television | Kilian_Herman </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Laura Arata: Okay. Well, good morning. Thank you so much for coming. If I could have you start by just saying your name and then spelling your last name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Herman Kilian: Herman Kilian, K-I-L-I-A-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Thank you. My name is Laura Arata. It is March 3, 2014, and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So if we could just start out, I would love to have you tell me a little bit about how your family came to the White Bluffs area, and where they came from. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Okay. My family were German immigrants. Mr. Bruggemann, the Bruggemann Ranch out there by the weigh station there at the bridge, brought them over and paid their way for a year's work, for their room and their board and their way over here. You see, they came from Germany in 1927, and they were in such a bad recession. A pound of butter cost a hundred--cost 1,000 German marks for a pound of butter. And they were so poor they couldn't get married, so they got married and came to White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: And how long did they work on the Bruggemann Ranch, and when did they-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: They worked one year at the Bruggemann Ranch. Now, you can see the Bruggemann Ranch when you go over the Hanford Road to the bridge. It's right to the right. There's an old shack still out there. That's where they spent their first year of their life in the United States. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you know if they spoke any English when they came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: No, but they were smart. They learned it pretty quick. They--there isn't that much difference between English and German, a lot of it. You know, if you're smarter than me. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: So when did they acquire their own land? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, I think they--you see, most of the farms around there were, a lot of them, were under receivership. And so they bought a little five-acre tract. It was probably either the first or second year when they were here. My dad went to work for the railroad, and had a steady job, about $0.40 an hour. And, anyway, they bought this five-acre tract with a little house on it. They had to carry their water about a quarter of a mile from the house. We had no electricity until we moved to another house a few years later, but that's the way it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did your family grow crops on that property? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Dad worked on the railroad, and mom was the farmer. And she grew-- we grew potatoes and carrots and everything that you eat, buy in the store for vegetables. We grew everything that we ate. All we bought was flour and spices. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: And at what year were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I was born 1931, right in the heart of the Depression. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: All right, and how many children were there in the family? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Oh, I think there were seven of us all together. My youngest brother was born in Sunnyside, but there were six of us in White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you have any memories of White Bluffs as a town or as a community at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I didn't understand the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did you travel to White Bluffs a lot? Do you remember as a town what it was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I would like to give you a little idea of what--I went on a trip up the Columbia River on that Hanford-White Bluffs tour when we had our picnic time, and it kind of brought back memories. You see, White Bluffs was the Columbia River. It's just like Hanford. The Hanford Project took that area, because it was a unique spot, had lots of water and kind of isolated. But the Columbia River was a big heater. The earliest fruit that was picked in Washington was picked at White Bluffs. Because the Columbia River would heat—air always came in from the north and the east. And the Columbia River then heated up the air, so all of the fruit were planted along the Columbia River from Hanford over to Vernita, not quite to Vernita. But all the fruit was—it was never heated. They never used any smudge pots, because of the heat from the river and the White Bluffs. You see, the White Bluffs was a reflection from the sun because of its unique whiteness. I remember one year when I was about 12--11 years old, it was 130 degrees in the shade, the 4th of July. I helped my neighbor haul out apples, and it'd bake the apples on the tree, it was so hot. So White Bluffs was probably the warmest area in the state because of those bluffs. You know, the sun reflection off of the white sand. And when you're going up this river, you get to the bend in White Bluffs, you will see an area out there that's got a whole lot of green vegetation on the water, grass, stuff. That would be a sandbar in July. But, you see, when they put the dams in, they regulated the water, so that the river was high enough, where it would always cover the sandbar, if you get the picture, okay? And the Indians would use the sandbar and catch salmon out there on the sandbar. That kind of brought memories back to me. Then when you look over to the left—if you want to take a trip up that Colombia just for the fun of it, if they have one. But there's a bluff up on top, which was a road. And that road was covered with six inches of water or more in 1937 or 1938, had that big flood. But you can imagine how much water came down there. Anyway, I remember I was in the back of the bus when the bus driver said maybe he was going to go through there. He got scared and turned around. We turned around in the water you know, because it so high. But history can do--you can find out in history just exactly what year that was. There was so much snow that we made forts in the school, and we had snowball fights. And anyway, it was a big snow year. And 10 years later it happened again when Vanport was flooded out down in Portland, when the roads in the Tri-Cities were underwater along the river. And it was a lot of water came down the Columbia once in a while. I'm not sure what happens now. I think they regulate it pretty well with the dams. Then you get around to the bend of the road, there's a big house up on the hill that they left there. It's the only house that's left in White Bluffs, that's the Heideman house. And he will tell you that. And that was a big mansion. I remember going to that Heideman house when I was a kid. She had all the state-of-the-art furniture, all of the big chairs and high stuff, everything. It was quite a sight. But Heideman went broke during the Depression and he lost--anyway, he went plumb broke, anyway. But that's the way it was. And then, you see, there was four farmers that was left in White Bluffs when Hanford came in. There was Mr. Fanning. Mr. Fanning had a pretty good-sized farm, probably 100 acres. And he had dairy cattle, and milk cows and then he grew white rose potatoes. And the government bought his potatoes and his milk for the army. They were left in there. And then there was Clark, there was Pat Clark. And then another guy, I forgot his name is. Then Skelton. There were four of them that stayed in there for two years and raised fruit for the army. Okay, if you know what I mean. And anyway, they came out of there pretty well off. The government paid them pretty well. That's the story of the Columbia River. Because White Bluffs was the Columbia River, because that was the heat and the water. That's why the government took that spot because of the big river and the cooling capacity that it had. And other than that, I don't know a whole lot more about what happened. If you want to ask me a question or two, I'll try to answer it. But the Columbia--that sandbar was quite a attraction, because the Indians came there, like I said, and then the carnivals came down. Not the carnival, but with the monkeys--the zoo. Is that what you call it? A zoo? Anyway, they set up down there, and of course it was a good spot. It had lots of water to feed the animals with. But it was quite an attraction for-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: It was like a traveling circus? Something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Anyway, I was in the sixth grade when we know left White Bluffs. Sixth grade, And I was 12 years old. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you have any particular memory-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: The one thing that was kind of--the sheep men liked White Bluffs. There was four different--well, let's see, Simon Martinez moved in there about the mid '30s. Simon Martinez now has got the only band of sheep in Washington that's commercial. But he got his start there at White Bluffs. They didn't irrigate too much, but in the spring if the year there were lots cheatgrass, and they lots of food. We actually fattened up the lambs just on grazing on the cheatgrass stuff that grew out there. So it was--being warm and whatnot, why, it was good to the lamb. So that was a good spot for the sheep men. The one thing that I remember about White Bluffs as a kid is there were some little blue lilies that grew out on the--there were some hills out there that were still desert. It was too high. They couldn't get water to it. But we'd walk around out there, and they'd find these little lilies out there. They're little blue lilies. [LAUGHTER] That was our spring work. As soon as the snow got off, got warm, these lilies would come up. Anyway, that was a-- Other than that, why, most of us was poor. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Well, White Bluff's--obviously it's an agricultural community. Do you have any memories of the town itself and some of the businesses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we--I worked with my mom. My mom was the farmer. And we grew potatoes and carrots and rutabagas. We had a root cellar, and we filled that up. Well, a root cellar was--they take these railroad ties and make a—then we'd cover it up with dirt. And it was actually always warm in there, in the root cellar. It was underground, and we'd go down and we'd--when I’d get home from school, why, we would top carrots and rutabagas, and put them down in the root cellar. Dad worked on the railroad, so we did everything, basically, in the evening. And the Indians came over a few times. That was quite a sight to see old Johnny Buck. I still remember Johnny Buck sitting on his big, old Pinto horse with his tomahawk stuck in his saddle. He looked kind of mean to me as a kid. [LAUGHTER] I was about ten, eleven years old. But evidently mom gave him some food, some potatoes and carrots and stuff. And he'd come back once in a while and get some stuff. But, anyway, I remember Johnny Buck, the Yakima chief. Anyway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Can you tell me a little bit about going to school, what school was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: My school? There was--well, it was just a three-story, I think it was, anyway, a three-story school building. They had--we had basically three grades in one room. Only--a teacher for every three grades. So there was probably somewheres around six or seven of us in a grade. Mrs. Moody was my first teacher, and then Mrs. Reisenauer was my second one. But then we moved. The high school, evidently, burned down the last year before we left there. And so the high school all went to Hanford. And they were getting ready to build a new school, and, of course, the government said to move out, so we moved out. Which, when looking back, you know, why it was a good deal for our country that we did. They took our area. It was kind of sad at the time, but, you know, when you look back and see what good was accomplished, why, it was worthwhile. My dad went back a few times to Fanning's place and cut his—we had a little tractor with a mower on it, and he went back to Fanning's and cut his hay a couple of times. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: So now, you talked a little bit about some snowball fights and forts and things. Do you have any other particular memories of school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, there were just--it got pretty mean, you know? I mean, the big guys would start throwing at us little kids, why, [LAUGHTER] it hurt a little bit. [LAUGHTER] And you can look in the records and see just when that was, that year, okay? But it was in the late '30s. 'Cause I was in school, and I was born in '31, and it had to have been six or seven or eight years later, you know, whatever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you remember any sorts of community social events that ever happened? I know you mentioned the 4th of July. Was there ever a picnic? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Fourth of July was a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Oops. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I don't know why. They are plugged in. Did this come on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: We'll get you hooked back up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Okay. Fourth of July was--the later years was quite an event. We had a gentleman who belonged to our church that delivered our fuel--gas man, Mr. Swiezel. But he, evidently, made enough money and whatnot where he would buy a whole gob of firecrackers and stuff. And so we-- at least for two years, maybe three, that I remember Mr. Swiezel buying these--I remember when I was a kid, I dropped a fire-- I had a fire cracker land under my feet, and I dropped one down on there, and I was in the middle of a fire cracker cracking. But they were little ones, they didn't hurt anything. [LAUGHTER] The last event that we had was in '42, and they tried to burn down the town of Hanford. That's where he lived. They had a raze-fire out there with the wind a-blowing. [LAUGHTER]. Anyway, by the 4th of July the cheatgrass was all dried up. What the sheep didn't eat was pretty vulnerable. It burned pretty good. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, it was fun growing up in that little community. You know, you knew everybody. But it was also a little bit--I never did know where everybody lived. There wasn't very much, because I just went to church with my dad in the car. And one time I remember driving around the river, and he showed me where these orchards were, where they lived. But other that we were pretty much in our own little communities there. And they talk about a ferry that went from the White Bluffs to the islands. They grew produce out on the islands. I'm not sure if the Japanese did it, or what it was. Anyway, they grew some produce on that island. But I never did see the ferry. I'll have no clue where the ferry is, so you'll have to look on the map and see where that is. Anyway, the flood of '37 was quite a deal. I helped my neighbor yard out apples for a couple of years. That seems kind of strange, you're 10 years old or other, hauling out apples, but we had to work in those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Can you tell me a little more about church? Did your whole family attend? Did your whole family attend church? Was that a pretty regular activity? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we went to a Lutheran church, in a Lutheran church. And there was a Presbyterian church in White Bluffs, and a Catholic church, I think. And then a Pentecostal church came in about the mid-30s. I remember Mr. Ham was one of the--there were two Ham boys that I remember. The one died of--got cancer, and the other boy was a big, tough kid. And he tried to get a cart off of the railroad track, and he didn't make it. A train hit him and killed him. But Alan was his name. But, anyway, my life was Dad working on the railroad and us farming. And I milked cows. When I was 12--six years old I started milking cows. [LAUGHTER] Oh, so that was how it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you know if your parents belonged to the Grange or any other? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: The Lutheran church didn't believe in the grange and lodges, okay? But they had a Grange Hall there. Mr. Fanning was the head honcho there at the Grange. We had a neighbor, Win Shaw, that had the apples that we worked in and he loaned dad his machinery and his horses to farm with when he came there. So Win Shaw was a vital part of our life, because we wouldn't have made it without him, I don't think. And my little and my little brother was named after him--Winfield and Juelette. [LAUGHS] Winfield and Juelette Shaw. Named after Win and Juelette. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Could you talk a little bit about when your family had to leave White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: What we did, what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: When you had leave, do you remember-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: When I had to leave White Bluff? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Yeah, what that was like. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we got a truck and loaded up the sheep, and loaded everything that we owned on it, and came to White Bluffs--or came to Sunnyside, which wasn't a bad move. I mean, that didn't hurt us any. You know, life in Sunnyside was probably better than Hanford and White Bluffs. I mean, there was more opportunities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you recall at all, you were 11 or 12 when you moved-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I was 12 when we left there, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did you remember any of, like, getting the letter in the mail telling you you had to leave, or any of that process? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: No, I don't recall too much about what happened. They offered Dad a job on the railroad over there, but he didn't want to do it, so we didn't stay there. But Dad was a good--Dad was probably the toughest guy in the country. At least over there. [LAUGHTER] He was a strong boy. I mean, he could things that most them guys couldn't. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: What did your family do once you move to Sunnyside? What did you do once you moved to Sunnyside? Were you still-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, we had a little farm. We had a--we was right on the edge of the north side of Sunnyside where the Sunnyside canal came around. And we were out there in the sagebrush with the rattlesnakes. [LAUGHTER] We had--I don't remember any rattlesnakes in White Bluffs. Maybe there were, but we never encountered them. But in Sunnyside, really we killed 20 or 30 the first year. The darn things would come down and get in the water. [LAUGHTER] Anyway. But we had to get rid of our sheep, because it was pretty dangerous out there herding the sheep out there in the sagebrush with the rattlesnakes. Oh, we just decided well, we didn't bunch of sheep. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to share? Any other memories? Is there anything I haven't asked you that you'd like to share that stands out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: No. I can say the main thing I remember about White Bluffs is that big Columbia River, you know. And that Bruggemann Ranch where Mom and Dad came. And the Heideman house where--well, they worked with Heideman for a year. So, I mean, it was those kind of thing. And then the sheep. I've got one story I want to tell you about sheep, okay? This is a story about our sheep dog. Mrs. Hoferer gave mom a shepherd of some kind. It wasn't a--it was a good--he was a young pup. And he was a good sheep dog. Anyway, about a year later Mrs. Hoferer evidently lost her dog. And so she came over and took our Teddy back home. This was in the spring. And by the summertime, Teddy came back home. All he had left on him--she'd completely shaved him so he could run without getting to hot I guess. I don't know. But, anyway, except for around his neck. And we never thought no more about it. Anyway, Hoferer left Hanford in the fall of '40, '42. And we moved to Sunnyside in about August. In '43, why, here come this dog. And I was out working in the produce stuff, and here come this dog. And he was always a mangy looking mutt. I mean, you can imagine. He probably ran around out there for a year, or six, eight months, anyway. He didn't like Mrs. Hoferer very well, let's put it that way. Whatever she did with him, I don't know, but I went home and I said, Mom, Teddy's out here. And I says, Teddy. He wagged his tail and come up to me. And so we found the dog, again. He found us in Sunnyside. Came all the way over that over there to get here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Did you keep him after that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: That's a fact. That was Teddy. And he lived for about another ten years. Course he was a big dog, and he liked to fight, and we had two females. And he got tore up so bad that one day he came home with his eye hanging out, so I had to put him to sleep. But, anyway, that's my story of Teddy. That was probably the one that I remember the best, you know, my dog. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: I got a note. I'm supposed to ask you about the boat races. Do you have any memories of the boat races at White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Boat races? I don't think they had them early, did they? When are they supposed to have had them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Woman: In the '30s and '40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: When were the boat races? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Woman: Sometime in the summer in the 1930s and 1940s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: I'm told the 1930s and '40s. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: In the 1930s there was some boat races? Well, I don't know of any. Of course, my dad wasn't-- our folks wasn't interested in that kind of stuff. A lot of things I didn't do. Like I said, I never got to the east side of town. I don't know who lived out there. I knew who lived out there, but I don't know where. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: We'll, is there anything else that you think it's important for students, who, maybe don't know about White Bluffs to know about what happened there before it was closed down? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, not really. I think, basically, White Bluffs was an agricultural community, and some made it and some didn't. It was a Depression time. I mean, it wasn't any different than Sunnyside. People came out from the Midwest. We fed people that came out here from the Midwest, with nothing after the drought and everything that they had. We just kind of raised crops and puddled around in our own way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about Hanford? Any of your responses to, kind of, the end of World War II when you found out what was going on there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, Hanford was a bad word for Sunnyside people. I mean, for white-blooded people. [LAUGHTER] Whatever. Well, it really wasn't. I mean, at the time were just one community. But I didn't know the kids that went to school at Hanford. Because that was, oh heck, it was 7 miles away. [LAUGHTER] You didn't get very far very fast. We were lucky our old car ran. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Do you recall how you felt when you learned what they were making at Hanford at the end of World War II? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well. There was kind of a--it didn't bother me any too much. I mean, I didn't--it would have been a little bit easier if they had told us what was going on, but it was such a military secret that, they didn't--I don't know whether the workers that worked out there knew what they were working on. They just built stuff and that was their job. But what was going on was kind of a military secret. They didn't want somebody shooting bombs over to blow the place up, I think. It was kind of a hush-hush operation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Great. Well, that is all my questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to be included? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Well, you know, when you're six years old, you don't know a whole lot, you know? That's all I remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: That's great. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming and sharing your memories with us. I really appreciate you being here and sharing all these stories. I'm out of questions. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: You're out of questions. Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: Are we stay on time? Is that-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Did I talk too-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: I don't want her yelling at me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: Did I talk too much? My wife-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: My wife says I talk too much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Arata: That was wonderful. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX115576974"> Kilian: I've got a-- I'm dyslexic, I can remember everything, but I can't read. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I have a hard time reading, but I could remember everything that I heard. [LAUGHTER] So, I mean, I don't forget the-- </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:34:13 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 194 kbps Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Clark, Pat Martinez, Simon Buck, Johnny Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Herman Kilian Description An account of the resource An interview with Herman Kilian conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/3/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe492c807fcb72ea484f1a3f609650c6a.jpg 01677cd59b210bb62fc34da468aef790 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe80189acb0a6011ff60f71ddfc211623.mp4 e14a584a638ed796407bd0d8a1c20f21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jean Johnson Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Northwest Public Television | Johnson_Jean </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Robert Bauman: All right. Ready to get started? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Jean Johnson: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. We'll start by having you state your name. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, my name--the name that people from White Bluffs will remember is Carrie Jean Conning. That was my name there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Right. Your name now is Jean Johnson? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. I left the Carrie off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. Great. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're doing this interview on July 31, 2013, at Jean Johnson's home. And so I want to start our interview by just asking you to tell me a little bit about your family. If you know when they came to White Bluffs, how and why they came there, and when. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: When my father was Leslie Andrew Conning. Known in White Bluffs as Andy. Andy Conning. He came from Pennsylvania. Somewhere here in the West and came up the river and landed in White Bluffs in 106. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And do you know why he came to White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: He was kind of an orphan when he was born. His mother died with birth. And his grandmother and father raised him, and they couldn't take care of him, so an uncle took him. And his name was Andrew somebody else. Had sheep. And he wanted my dad to come back, come there into Colorado, or in the White Bluffs area and have sheep. Don't know if he ever did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And so that's why he came to White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And how about your mother? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: My mother came from South Dakota. They went to Yakima. I don't know why. And then they went from Yakima to White Bluffs in 1912. She married my dad in 1918. And he had four--they had four children. I have three older brothers, then myself. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And so your parents met in White Bluffs, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. They were neighbors. Because her name was Johnson, also. She came in there as Irma Johnson. And then she married Codding. That's what people are confusing when they say, what was your mother's maiden name? Johnson. [LAUGHTER] So, then I went to work right from graduation to The Republic newspaper in Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: In Yakima, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And I worked there--I was only, I think I was maybe 17. I was going to say 16, because I did graduate a year earlier in my age than I should have. And I could only work so many hours, because that was during the war. '43 I graduated from Yakima High School. And I had to sign a paper for a Social Security number. I never had had one before. So then that's when I took off the Carrie and just put Jean Conning. And then, of course, as soon as I got married, I had to do it again. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] I wonder if you could talk a little bit about where you grew up in White Bluffs. Your family farm, what that was like, what sort of crops you grew, that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: He grew--my father had apples. And we lived right next to the Columbia River, and we had a water pump. And used to pump our water out of the river to irrigate. And then we had--he had just a home. Little bunch of fruit trees. Peaches and pears and cherries. And every—lot of people would come and pick them and can them, and my mother would can them. And they worked—they irrigated with the pipe and plugs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: What kind of pipes, do you know what that pipe was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Wooden. Wooden pipe. And they had a cement--I don't even remember what they call it. But the water came from the river, and stayed in there, and then the pipes would drain off to put water in the field. And then the war came. And I was still in school, because I started--I was born in 1925. So he lost that place and had to move to another place. And the boys were all in the service by then. And he worked it by himself. And worked himself down. He got sick. But we stayed in White Bluffs. And then the cars were going through with the US government, so we knew something was going to happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about the farm that you grew up on. Were there other buildings that you had? Was there like a storage--a warehouse for storing some of the fruit, or any other sort of buildings? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Not then. We had a barn, because we had a milk cow, and two horses. The horses used to pull the spray wagon. And then in later years, they put a pipe out for them, to hold a spray. So they could just hook up and spray. And they were spraying that lime and sulfur, something like that. It was very--after everybody was gone, I heard how dangerous that was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And was that for insects? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hmm, worms. The worms were eating him up. And nothing would stop them, since I told you before, they didn't come with DDT until after the war started, which was too late for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Did you have electricity on your farm? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Uh-huh. And my mother had an electric stove and an electric washing machine. But it was just a small little house. And the school bus would not pick me up, because I lived within three miles of the school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So you walked to school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: So I had to walk to school. And there were three other girls there, who all four of us had to walk to school, carrying our lunch buckets and our books. And no fear. You know, every place we went, we walked. We had no fear. We knew everybody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Do you remember the names of any those girls that you used to walk to school with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yvonne Ponsat was one. P-O-N-S-A-T. Her father was French. And she had two brothers who were in high school with my brothers. Another one was Elizabeth Keele. I don't know what he does. He's around Yakima somewhere. He's probably gone by now, too. The other girl, I can't remember her name, because she had moved there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So when walking to school, was that elementary school and high school, or? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: High school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: High School. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yeah, the school bus would take us to grade school, but not to high school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: The high school was closer to you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And it was just across one field, but we walked over and went down and walked down the road. And then eventually we all got bicycles. But the bicycles were--we were almost grown by the time we could afford a bicycle. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Must have been a little tricky walking sometimes in the winter. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: There were no winters there. We lived so close to the river, it was warm all winter. I don't remember any snow. No snowmen, no snow fights, no icy roads. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And did you have telephone at your house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, yes. With the ringer, you know-- "number please!" [LAUGHTER] You remember them? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] I remember the dial phones. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh yeah. Well, this was just a telephone operator. And we also had RFD. We also had mail service. So it wasn't too remote. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So how far from the town were you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, they said I lived within three miles. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And that was the limit for school was three miles from town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Do you remember any of your teachers from school at all? From either grade school or high school? Did you have any favorite teachers or ones that you remember at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, those pictures reminded me. I did not remember them, yes, but I do now. And another thing, too. My father was the clerk of the school board. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: So he got to have all the interviews of all the people who came that wanted a job of teaching. And my youngest brother and I would sneak around and try and get a good look at them before any of the school kids did. We wanted to know who they were first. [LAUGHTER] My other two brothers had graduated from high school by then, but my younger brother and I went to school as close together as four years could do it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Mm-hm. Were your parents involved in any other organizations at all in the community? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, just my dad was a Mason, and my mother was Eastern Star. And that was all of their--they did not go to church. And we had eight churches in White Bluffs, and they were all active. No, there were six! Six. I'm too far. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: What about the town itself? What sorts of businesses do you remember, or stores, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. You want to bring that in, Leslie? It's out there. I didn't bring the right one. It's a tablet. Just seeing that picture reminded me of a lot of their names. Okay, the grocery store was the first scene. His name was Dick Reirson. R-E-I-R-S-O-N. And then we had a drugstore, but it was a pharmacy. And he had an ice cream table. And he had a distorted hand, and he used to put the ice cream cone down in there, you know, with the little top, and then reach down. Remember those cans that had the ice cream in it? Good old hard ice cream put in there, and never drop a drop. He was also the band leader for the high school music. And then there was the power company, and I could not remember the lady's name. They had Pacific Power there. And he had a Ford dealer with a service company. That was Fred Gillhualy. G-I-L-L-H-U-A-L-Y. And they were four boys. And I don't know if they're around Yakima or gone by now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Yeah, I'm not sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I know the name because one boy said he was flying home from California to Yakima, and they were taking—so many people had to get off the airplane, but he got to ride all the way to Yakima. Went to get off the plane, the little stewardess said, how do you pronounce your last name? [LAUGHTER] They couldn't tell him to get off the airplane because they couldn't pronounce his name! So that was good. And Levi Austin was the superintendent at the high school. And the Austin name is from Prosser. The one boy, he had a hardware store in Prosser. But I keep thinking, you know, they're still there, but I'm just lucky to live as long as I have. Because they were probably--they were in my brother's age. And see in there, everybody's gone. So I don't remember any teachers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I remember--well, I don't remember the principal, but I remember the principal of the high school took us all in the next morning after Pearl Harbor, and told us that they had bombed Pearl Harbor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Is that how you found out about it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: World War II, yes. Because remember Roosevelt? Franklin Roosevelt? "This day will be known in infamy." Well, I heard that. Course, it never went away. And then my father--this was years before we moved to this ranch. The first ranch we had when we were all little. My father and the neighbor built this warehouse, and they came in with apples, and they poured them in this water bath, and then it went down. And the women sorted off all the bad, and the other ladies were packing the apples with wrapper paper. Take that little paper. And they'd go on a roller to the lidder, and he would put the lid on and stack them up. And then two more people would come with these lifts and carry the five boxes of apples across a ramp and put them on the truck until they got the truck loaded, and then they would take it to White Bluffs, to the railroad. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: The Milwaukee Railroad came into White Bluffs, and they would take them to Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And that's how the apples would get shipped out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And the Pear and Fruit. I don't even know if they're still there, but my father worked for them after he had to leave White Bluffs and went to Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: When you were growing up on the farm, did you have any chores? Any things that you did? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No, I was little. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was little. No. And I said we didn't have any indoor plumbing, and we didn't have any running water. And my brother reminds me so much of Wes, the boy you met. Said, well, Jeannie said we just put the bucket on the rope and put it down, and get a bucket of water. Wind the rope up, grab a hold of the buck, and if you were still able, you'd run the water to the house. [LAUGHTER] So he tried to tell me that we did have running water. But no, I did--I probably took care of the chickens or something like that. I didn't have any pets. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Did you swim in the river at all, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No. No, I was too little. The boys did, and we'd go out in one of these peach orchards. There were a lot of orchards in White Bluffs. Beautiful orchards. And they also had irrigating water. Pretty British, no. What's the Puget--what's over here? Where the river goes under the bridge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Not sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Priest River! Priest Rapids! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Priest Rapids, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Priest Rapids irrigation. And they had paid in money for the upkeep of it. And that was one of the things that the boys--some White Bluffs boy told me, did you ever get any money back from your--what do you call that? Whenever you give money--have money yearly. It's not a donation; it's a cost. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: The years of the irrigation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, can't think. Okay. And no, we didn't ever have any. But they did have plenty of water. That's one thing they did have up there was plenty of water. And those peach orchards, they could afford to clean up new land, and bringing in new trees, and have the water. And they could--with the winters that we had there, their fruit would get onto the market before California would get up to Yakima. So when that company came in to take over, they gave my dad about $5 an acre. And these guys got maybe $20. And they were all rich enough to hire lawyers, and they hired lawyers. And their lawyer got them much more money for their land. But it was worth it. To see those brand new trees get just bulldozed over! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I was wondering if you remember any special community events or celebrations? Did you have any 4th of July celebrations, or picnics, or anything like that? Foot races? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I can't remember any specific. I do remember that they built next to the high school something called a Community Hall. And they would have dances and the boys would play basketball. And maybe Kennewick would come up and play basketball. They'd have basketball games. But as far as grange, they did not participate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, and this orchard, in their warehouse. Yes, he had told me that before, that he had about 16 people that they hired. And my mother was the bookkeeper. And so these people were getting money every Friday night. 1934 and '35. So he had lots of friends. Lots of people liked him, because he did provide for people to get a job. There were no jobs, as far as work was concerned. The grocery store would hire--his nephew was there. And the drugstore did it by himself. And one lady, Mrs. Leander, was the postmistress. She took care of the post office. I don't know who any of the people were that came around to deliver the mail. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that there was the initial farm that your parents had, and then your father had moved at some point. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: About how old were you at that time, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, according to the pictures on--at home, I was about four. Because I was just with the kids as they would stand out go to school. I wasn't going to school. And then I cannot tell you how long it was, but it was a big blow to leave that house and that yard, and go to a house where workers had lived in all their life. And they had cardboard on their walls, covering up the wood. And it had one bedroom, and I got to have the bedroom. And there was a big porch in the front, and the three boys slept in part of it, and Mother and Dad slept in the other. But the weather over there was never cold. I guess it was hot, but I don't remember that. I'm sure it was hot. Because it was desert. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And how far away would the second place have been from your first house? Was it fairly close? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I would say three and a half miles, just up over a hill. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And then you lived there until you moved to Yakima? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Okay. You mentioned that you'd heard about World War II beginning. You want to talk about your brothers? And I understand they all joined the service at some point. Is that correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And that's why you were still living in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No, Yakima. Well, you're right. They were. But then they left, because one was going to university and the other two we're going to Washington State. And they joined in what, '41? And then we had to move in '43. But they said, Mom, don't worry about moving to Yakima, because we can get to Yakima from anywhere in the world, but we can't get to White Bluffs. So they were probably already in the service doing their first camp or something. And one--I had no idea in the world what reconnaissance meant--he did not fight a war, but he was in reconnaissance--until I looked it up in the dictionary. And he was fighting the war up in the air, taking pictures of their movements, the Japanese movements. And my other brother was in a tanker taking fuel from New Orleans to France in the Atlantic. And he said that the Atlantic was full of German submarines. He said there were four days that they didn't even take their clothes off. But his was brand new, and he could not go slow as everybody else did. And he could go faster than their convoy, so he circled their own convoy without any cover, because he said his boat would not go that slow. And my other brother was in Marine fighter pilot. And he--I don't know if you knew the story about Ted Williams, but Ted Williams' group came in. Whenever my brother left that camp, Ted Williams came in. And I just heard that on the--because people look at me and say, Ted Williams, the baseball player? And I said, yes, he went to war. Yeah, he was in a group that came in and took over where my brother had been. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you started seeing some cars and vehicles that said U.S. Government. Do you remember any more about that? Anything else that happened? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, that was our first--there was gossip around that, I don't know, that they were going to take over and build a atomic bomb or something on our land. That we were going to have to leave. Well, you know, until it came to push, and then came shove. But these station wagons were showing up, and each one of them had about four men sitting in it. And they were surveying the land. And they had surveyed how many houses there were, and what condition they were in, because some houses were ready to be burned and a few houses were moved. And the rest of them were demolished. And then all of a sudden it came across that you were going to have to move by the 15th of September. They gave them the date. And my mother worked on an election board. And whatever year that was, I don't know. But she wanted to stay and work on that last board. And I had been told later that that was the only money she was going to move with, was what she got paid for. She had a sister that lived in Yakima, and they found us an apartment. And it was just two rooms. Oh, goodness, it was small. But that was where we were. And my dad stayed to work on the orchard. They let him stay until the crops were all picked. And he sent the last bunch of apples off that orchard to Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: How did you feel about having to leave? Or your parents ever express anything about-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: They did not, because as I've said before, I said we were poor. Leslie just said we didn't have any money. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: And we all got jobs. I got babysitting jobs with a little neighborhood girl. The mother was there, but I would just go over there and play with her, and get maybe $0.25 or something. Well, that's all there was. And I didn't drive. I couldn't go anywhere. Cars were--gas was rationed. And then we went to Yakima. And I graduated on about the 3rd of June and went to work on the 6th. I said to Mother, now, don't wake me up. I'm going to sleep for two days. She woke me up and said, well, there's an ad in the paper. The newspaper wants help. And I said, well, I'll go see. Well, I got taken that day. I worked there for seven years. In the advertising, Johnny, doing anything that they wanted done. I would do it. I ran the switchboard. And I could--I did a lot of odd jobs there. But I was in advertising. Yeah, I have to tell you that writing for sale notes to be published in the paper. And Friday night, he had to have it. Everything had to be back in the room to get onto Sunday's paper, at least by five o'clock Friday night. And this one man would invariably come about 20 after 4:00. And every time I could, I would leave the room. But I got a hold of him one time, and he had cattle for sale. And I was writing it down. And he had a milking short-horn bull. And I wrote it down, and I looked at it. That's what it said, a milking short-horn bull. I said, that's not possible! Oh, he said, you silly girls don't know a thing. That's what it is. Put in the paper. [LAUGHTER] I couldn't ask him, hey, my father wouldn't have known what a short-horn bull was either. [LAUGHTER] Wow, I never will forget that. So I found out later that that's a breed of animal. That's what they're called. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I was asking about leaving White Bluffs. Did your parents get any money for their property at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I have no idea. Money was never spoken of. I know that we took what furniture that there was suitable, and we had an aunt and uncle that lived in Sunnyside. And they came over with an old truck, and took whatever we couldn't take. Because when we went to Yakima, they said the apartment was furnished. So we didn't take anything. And that was bad. Because what they had furnished, we didn't want to sleep on. And we'd already sent out stuff to Sunnyside. So we slept on a Davenport until we got enough money to--Mother went to work for a lady that lived up the street. Had a little milk and bread grocery store, and she had two sons in the service. And so she and Mother had lots in common. And Mother would go to work for her two days--for a couple of hours two days a week. And that was what we bought groceries with. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: When you were living in White Bluffs, how you get news? Was there a newspaper? Did you have a radio? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I never read a newspaper. I don't know anything about that. As soon as I got into the newspaper business, I read everything I can. I don't know. And as I said before, the radio we had was run by a battery. And the boys were allowed to have 30 minutes of radio when they got home from school. One of them was Jimmy Austin. Remember the--well you probably don't remember--it was a airplane. My one brother was crazy about airplanes then. And then they got into the, oh, some stupid--I think that was television, though. And then my dad was a great news man, and he would listen to the Richfield Reporter. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And how about you? Did you listen to anything on the radio? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Uh-uh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I was wondering if you ever had a chance, opportunity, to go back to White Bluffs at some point later, during one of the White Bluffs reunions, or anything like that, where you have to go back and see the area at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Just three times I have. One was our 60th graduation. And the four I told you about--we had four--and the other three came. And that was when he took my girlfriend and I up to the--Harry Anderson took us up to our homes. Otherwise we would just join the convoy that would go out around and around and around. And come back in and drive through what White Bluffs streets were to get back out to the park. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: When you were able to go back and see the area, were there any things that you recognized at all that were still there, or was pretty much everything gone? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, a lot of the houses were still there. The girls that I used to go visit and knew about. And the warehouse was there. Just about the last packing he did was when he left. And a wind storm had come in and it was just boards. And the wind leveled it. So that was the end of that. And our hay barn, our cow barn, had collapsed, and I didn't want to go back anymore. It wasn't home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: I see. What do you think is important for people to know about the community of White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I want them to know that we were a community. We had stores. We had grocery stores. We had a barber shop. Had the power company. We had electricity at home. My mother had an electric washing machine, which was very, very rare. But the boys had made enough money in the service to help her buy some stuff. So she had an electric stove, and she had a wood stove. And the electric stove is what she baked in. Use it for baking. Because we had so many apples, she was always making apple pie. The wood stove had a great big reservoir. So if you wanted hot water, you started the stove. You'd have enough hot water to wash the dishes at suppertime, and wash your face to go to bed. That I can relate to something else that's kind of bad to these kids, but every morning, after breakfast, before we went to school, we’d put a little bit of soda and little bit of salt in the palm of our hand, and take our dry toothbrush and mix that together. Have a glass of water, and the four of us went outside, and stood outside on the lawn, and we'd all brush our teeth. Dip it in the water, and dip over here. We didn't have toothpaste, but I guess soda and salt will work just as well. We never had candy. We did have apple pie and chocolate cake. Mother did bake. And then my father had that cow, and would have a calf. And whenever the calf got big enough, he'd butcher it. And it would hang up in a tree. It was cool. It was always in the fall that he'd butcher the calf. And they'd go out and cut some meat, take it in, and have it for supper. So it was very, very pioneer. True. But as I said before, Leslie has made me think we were not poor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Right. Did you go to any other towns very much at all? To Pasco or to-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, Pasco we went for a doctor, because I got real sick in my fifth grade. I had Bright's disease. Don't even know what it is. But the doctors now say, well, I'm glad you had it then, because we don't want you to have it now. And I had to stay in the hospital in Pasco. And my mother would come twice a week, and she'd say, how are you doing? Oh, I said, I wish you'd bring me some water from home. The water they give me has--they always put my medicine in my water! And I said, I don't like it that way. I like to be able to drink a drink of water. And she said, well, they shouldn't put your medicine in your water. So she went out to the nurse and said, Jean said that the water isn't good. Well, she complains to me, too, but she's drinking city water. They had chlorine in it, and I didn't like it. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] How long were you in the hospital for that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: About two weeks. To me, that was a long ways to be from home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: And about how old were you at that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was in fifth grade. I think I was 11. Bright's disease, I think, was a kidney problem, and the doctor, without telling me, told my mother that I may not ever be able to have children. So nobody told me anything about that until after I got married. And I had four children in six years, so I proved them wrong! [LAUGHTER] All doctors aren't right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Were there doctors in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was born there, yes. That's what one of my friends said, you couldn't have been born in White Bluffs unless you were born at home. I said, no, I was born in White Bluffs. There was a little house there, and there was some doctor. I don't know who he was. He was an old, old man. And the lady I talked to, the nurse, was a retired army nurse. And she said she had studied--what's baby birth? It's not pediatrics. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: It's not pediatrics? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Well, anyhow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Woman: Was it midwifery? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Yeah. Well, that's what she was. She was a midwife. So yeah. The boys were all born in Yakima. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: My mother would go in there and stay with her mother. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: But you were born in White Bluffs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: I was born in White Bluffs. And isn't that funny? I can remember that, a white house. It was spotless. And there was no dogs and cats running around in it. No children. Just that old man and that lady. But I made it through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Are there any other memories or stories, things you remember from growing up that we haven't talked about yet, or I haven't asked you about yet that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: No, I ended up with The Republic and then I got married. Well, I worked seven years at the newspaper office. And the picnics and things that we had was over on the other house where we had the big lawn. We always had a picnic there. A lot of those people who were working at the warehouse would come over on Sunday and bring one dish or something, and all their kids. And they would play on our yard, because we had water in the yard--came to go to the orchard--had been derailed and come on to the yard. And he had and old lawnmower and mowed it. So it was fun. And we had a lot of company, because everybody was beholden to my father. And that's about all I can remember, but I wanted to express myself that this is really from my heart, because I have wanted to do this. And I appreciate all your help and the other people coming in and standing there waiting for us to get done. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for being willing to share your stories. This has been terrific. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Thank you. And the weather there! The weather in White Bluffs--I'm sorry. It was beautiful, even though it was desert. We had warm winters. I do not remember any snow. And it was a long trip from White Bluffs to Yakima in an old car. [bounces up and down] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Is that the Ford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: An old Ford--no, no. Oh, my, no. We had a big Chevrolet. My brother bought it, then they went to war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: So you took the Chevrolet once they were gone. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. Well, I am a very happy person. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well, thank you very much. Again, it was really appreciated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Crew woman: Is that it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Crew woman: Okay, well I heard you talking about the boat regatta. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Oh. Yeah. The boat regatta. There's a photo of the cars lined up on the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: Could you talk about that at all? Do you have any memories about the-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: Oh, yes. Because two of our men were in two of those boats. One of them was the Wiehl. I can't remember what another man's name was. I don't remember too much about it, because to me the boats were just going around and around and the rest of us kids were either trying to get ice cream, or [LAUGHTER] see how many rocks we could pick up or something. It wasn't--and that's another thing, too. I probably mentioned that before. We were never afraid. We were never afraid. Day or night. If somebody new came into town, he was well covered. And everybody knew who he was in ten days, five days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Bauman: The boat regattas, did it happen every year? Is that something that's a yearly-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> Johnson: As far as I remember. I cannot say it was every year. Maybe every year for five years or something like that. And that was one of the biggest events. There was no rodeos, and no parades that I can ever remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX49048070"> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Okay. Well, Jean, let’s have you look at some of these photos, maybe. And have you talk a little bit about them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Jean Johnson: All right. This is my mother and father’s wedding. They were married in Prosser in August 19—I almost want to say 1916. It doesn’t matter, really, it was somewhere in there. And they had met in White Bluffs, where mother’s family grew up—moved from Yakima to White Bluffs—was only 100 feet from Dad’s shack. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: So they met early in the shack. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: They were neighbors. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah. Okay, and this was a brand new Ford Turing. It wasn’t Turing—what did I tell you it was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: You thought maybe a Model A, possibly? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: No. I don’t think—I don’t know. Maybe not, it was a brand new car. And when Dad went into White Bluffs to pick up the car, he took the three boys with him and bought them all three new hats. So they were spiffy and ready to go. And here they were just showing me off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: And this is my house in White Bluffs. I loved that house. And you can see from the pictures they had a great big lawn. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Right. More kids again here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. And we played—I was out on the grass all the time. The boys had pretend airports over here with their model airplanes. In those days they had airplanes that were made of steel or something, they were heavy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And who took all these photos, did your parents have a camera then? Do you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Are we all there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: No, but I mean—this is the four of you kids, but did your family have a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah. They had a Kodak Box. And those other pictures that I took when I was older, I had a little tiny thing that took 110. And then they finally did away with the 110 film. So the girls gave me a digital—3M or something, I don’t know. I can’t think. [LAUGHTER] So I don’t take any more pictures. Yeah, this was 1937. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: So, you were about 12 years old? What year were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: ’25. No, I was little. I was about four, I didn’t get to go to school yet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, here you were little, yeah. Let’s see. Oops. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah. And that’s an orchard that they worked in and they climbed up a tree. And there was a ladder, and there’s the dog standing there with them. See that? Ben-ben was always with them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: That was your family dog? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. There was a— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And who’s this here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: That’s my second brother. He was the one who was on the gas run for the Navy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: He had come home from Pullman. He was very, very studious. He was the president of his senior class in college. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Oh, okay, was that Washington State? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yes. And this one—my older brother went to the University of Washington, Seattle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Okay, I’m going to bring in some of these school photos now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: This was the seventh grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And which one are you in here? You see yourself? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Remember? I was in the background, up by the teacher, tall. Yeah. And this is what? Fifth and sixth. We were younger. See that’s me right there. My brothers were all ahead of me. And that man’s name was Tomet. He lived in [UNKNOWN]. Fred Tomet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And he was the teacher? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: This was taken outside in front the school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. That looks like a pretty good looking school, doesn’t it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: It does, yeah. Now here’s an earlier one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah, that was the teacher of second grade. I told you when she came back she had a little tiny—had a belly on her! Next time we knew, she had a new baby in her arms. That was my experience of when children would come, taught in school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And which one are you in this photo? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Oh, right there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Uh-huh. And there’s grade school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Oh, this is a whole bunch of them! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Looks like the whole grade school. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: It must be. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Of White Bluffs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: I think I’m down here, because that was the teacher. And that was my first grade teacher—I told you she was an older woman. And do you know, to this day—I called her Mrs. Moody—and there’s a lady in Ellensburg that my brothers went to school with. And they called her Mrs. So-and-so. In those days, that’s all we—you did not call them by Martha and George. They were mister and missus. And that’s what—in that, the lists that Betsy made of all those men in town—I didn’t know their first names that came to me. But they were always Mr. Gilhuly and Mr. Larsen and Mr. English. Kids in those days didn’t say, Hi Fred! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: [referring to picture] I can’t tell, I can’t tell. But I’m there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And another thing I wanted you to talk about was this. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Yeah, that was the name of my father’s apple. This was painted on the backside of his—on the solid end of the apple box. And that does say White Bluffs on it. Codding and Heideman, Fred Rea – Seattle was his—when his stuff was shipped out. When it went right into the store, right into people, it was Pear in Yakima. Pear Fruit Company. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And who was Heideman? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: He was a neighbor. We lived here, and went through the orchard and through the orchard, and he lived right there. And they had five children and they were all younger than we were. But it’s funny how they grew up, because two of the boys were teachers that came into Yakima. They were agriculture teachers and one was a livestock teacher. And they came into the school from Wenatchee. So many of those kids, you know, they moved out of White Bluffs when they had to. And they all stayed within the area, almost. I don’t know, some of them must have left and went out of state, but a lot of them just stayed with what they knew. That’s the only thing you could do, you couldn’t get really educated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: A lot of them stayed close by? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Mm-hm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: I meant to ask you, do you know how large your farm was, like how many acres? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: I think it was something like 22. It wasn’t large, but they were all trees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: And so your father partnered with Mr. Heideman for these apples. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Well, I would say Mr. Heideman let—knew my father. Because he wanted to build it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: And Heideman said, well, I’ll help you. And so they got in a real good friendship. Us kids were all good friends, but the parents didn’t have much to do until they got into this. But he was, as I said before, a lot of people had great respect for him for getting them jobs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Mm-hm, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: Now, not to change the subject, but my boys are the same way as my dad was. Because my boys hire whatever they have to hire. And they are—the boys that they hire comment to them and to their parents how easy and how nice it is to work here. Because they say thank you, they don’t yell at them, they’re paid every time they need money or time they’re off. And that’s what they have learned. If they did the work, pay them. Don’t say you have to wait until Monday. So they have very good respect in the Valley. I’m very, very proud of all of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Sure. I meant to ask you, how did you come across this label? How did you get this label? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Johnson: I have no idea. Somebody must have drawn it up for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237666991"> Bauman: Mm-hm. All right. Thanks. Thank you, that was very good. Very helpful. </div> </div> Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 244Kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04:24 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1925-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Conning, Andrew Johnson,Irma Ponsat, Yvonne Keele, Elizabeth Reirson, Dick Fred Gillhualy Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano)1882-1945 Williams, Ted Anderson, Harry Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jean Johnson Description An account of the resource An interview with Jean Johnson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-7: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/31/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Roosevelt, Franklin D. (Franklin Delano), 1882-1945 White Bluffs (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe96772868bcbb27fc792d8ce071d7ad8.jpg 1edcf090a52c05e2abb84031af5e6bdb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7e4463a8a3acaf49a721532d344d9f3f.mp4 6f741c1244f024accff8b1403feeae12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lewis, Doris Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Lewis_Doris Robert Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And, yeah, I'm sure it will be. Man One: Yeah, I am too. Doris Lewis: Because I think I've forgotten more than I remember. Man One: Me too. Lewis: [LAUGHTER] Miriam: So mom, I won't chime in unless you ask me to. Lewis: Yeah. Miriam: Okay? Lewis: Okay. Man One: Going here. Bauman: Okay, we’re good to go? Man One: Yeah. Lewis: Well-- Bauman: All right. Lewis: --see, you were born in-- Miriam: 1958. Lewis: Yeah, October. Miriam: Why don't we let them ask the questions? Bauman: We'll go ahead and get started, yeah. Lewis: Okay. Bauman: So let's go ahead and get started. And first I'm going to just have say your name for us. Lewis: Now? Bauman: Yeah, go ahead. Lewis: My name is Doris Lewis. Bauman: And my name is Robert Bauman. And today is August 14, 2013. And we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start by having you tell us about how and why you came to this area. Lewis: Okay. I came to this--I got married in Seattle. I got engaged back in Minnesota and I came out west. And we were married in Seattle in--what was it? Miriam: 1944. Lewis: Yeah, 1944--December 5, 1944. Miriam: So can I--Mom, but you came out here--you guys were waiting to get married for Dad to get kind of a good job. Lewis: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Miriam: And so he got a job out here, right? Lewis: Yes. Miriam: When did he get the job out here? Lewis: Well he got the job--let's see. We were married in--he got the job in '43. Miriam: So you didn't even have your house when you moved out here. You came to Seattle, got married, and then moved into your house here? Lewis: Yeah, we moved into a one-bedroom prefab, of which I have a picture. Miriam: So you came out here because Dad got a job here. And that was what allowed you guys to get married. And that's when you moved here. Lewis: Yeah. That's why I moved here, yes. Bauman: And so what sort of job did your husband have? Lewis: He was a photographer, a patrol photographer. Bauman: And his name was? Lewis: Walt--S. Walt--It's Sam Walter Lewis, but everybody knew him as Walt. Bauman: And so he got a job working as a photographer at the Hanford site? Lewis: Mm-hm. He was on patrol here, working on patrol. But he was a photographer. Bauman: Oh okay, so working for the Hanford patrol? I see. Okay. What was Richland like when you came here in 1944? Lewis: Well, Richland was still being built when I came here in 1944. And they put up prefabs to get housing up quickly. And since we were a couple, we got a one-bedroom prefab. It was on Sanford and Symons--a lot different today. And the sidewalks were that macadam. And asparagus was growing up on the sidewalks, as I remember, right across from our prefab. I have a picture here of myself sweeping off the porch-- Bauman: That's great. Lewis: --of the prefab. You may have it. Bauman: We'll film that later. Yeah, that's great. Lewis: Mm-hm. So anyway, that was my first home here. And it was really darling. I bought yellow chintz with blue figures on it. And one of the women here helped me make drapes. People were very friendly. And she not only helped me, she just made the drapes. [LAUGHTER] And we used to get together and have parties. And we formed a community. It was a lot of fun. Bauman: Mm-hm. And I'm guessing there must have been people coming here from all over the United States? Lewis: All over, from every--the people I saw a lot of happened to be Southerners. And they were really warm and friendly. Bauman: And you said your first house was-- Lewis: A one-bedroom prefab. And it was darling. It had a living room. And then it had a curtained off area for the kitchen and bathroom and bedroom. And it was adequate for a couple. Bauman: And how long did you live there? Lewis: You know, I don't remember. Not too long. So we moved into a two bedroom for a while. I've lived in every house in Richland. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So when you first came here, you talked about it being a very friendly place, very friendly community. Were there things to do, entertainment, places to shop, those sorts of things? Lewis: Oh. They still had--big bands came here. And Hanford was still running. I went to their house, open house, where they served meals and stuff. They were still serving meals. And they served family style. The waiters came in with huge plates of food and put them on the tables, a lot of food. And they still hand entertainers come in. There were some big time bands. I don't remember now who they were, but they were notables. They were a lot of fun, too, because everybody was friendly. You danced with whoever asked you. And my husband was taking pictures. So I didn't get to--he didn't help me. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So it must have been quite a bit different than Minnesota, or Seattle. Lewis: Oh, yeah, quite a difference, yeah. Bauman: I've heard people talk about the heat and the dust and the winds, you know, the termination winds. Lewis: And the place was dug up. So we'd have terrible sandstorms. And I would come home at night to my house and the couch--you know, these were prefabs. So they're not too well built. I come home to my house and my couch was covered with sand. You couldn't see the pattern on it. And then we had to sweep out. [LAUGHTER] We were young. And it didn't matter. We took everything in stride. Bauman: Do you remember any community events or anything like that would go on in Richland at the time? Lewis: I'm sure there were. I don't remember. I'm sure there were. Bauman: Yeah. I understand that there was not a synagogue at the time that moved here and that you and your husband were involved in-- Lewis: Yeah, there were about 12 of us, eventually. And we got a group together. We held services every Friday night in our homes. And we formed a Jewish community. Yes. As I say, there were only 12 of us. I don't know when we built the--we built the synagogue when Jerry was-- Miriam: There was the 60th anniversary recently. Lewis: Huh? Miriam: Recently, there was the 60th anniversary. Lewis: Yeah. Bauman: So sometime in the 19--early '50s. Miriam: Yeah. Lewis: But we opened the synagogue when Jerry was about two or three, I think. A Seattle architect, a Jewish architect, drew up the plans--didn't charge us. And we had Meyer Elkins, who was--he supervised the building. He worked for AEC. And he was in charge of our synagogue building. We hired an architect from Seattle, and I cannot remember his name. But he was a very good architect. And our original synagogue has been enlarged to twice its size. There was an addition put on that was as big as the original building. Now I don't know when that was, either--I mean the date. Bauman: Right. Miriam: All right, can I ask a question? Mom, how did you guys raise the money to build it? Lewis: How did we raise the money? Miriam: And how many more--you were 12 originally, but how did the congregation grow? Lewis: Well, it grew. There were 12 of us that built it, the synagogue. We pledged to pay over a period of years. And the bank loaned us the money. And now what did you just ask me? Miriam: Just--there were 12 of you to start with, but when the synagogue was built, did people start hearing of it and start coming? Sorry, I'm-- Lewis: Yeah, well I don't know. I don't know when--it took a while to build it. And once they built it, then we had regular services every Friday evening and Saturday morning. And we celebrated holidays there. The synagogue was a central point for us. That's where we held all our activities. That's where we met. And that's how we really functioned. Bauman: And you said there were 12 initially. Do you remember any of the other individuals who were involved early on? Lewis: Any what? Bauman: Any of the other people who were involved early on? Lewis: Oh yeah, well most of them are dead now. Bauman: Sure. Lewis: There was Meyer and Tilly Elkins. And Meyer was a--he was a builder. He was an engineer. But he did building. And he supervised the building. And I'll tell you, it was perfect. [LAUGHTER] He was very, very concerned about every detail. We have a good, solid building. And if it weren't for these dedicated people, we wouldn't have had anything. Because we pledged the money for it, which at that time seemed like a lot of money. You couldn't do it today. And I don't remember the amount, but I think it was only about $16,000. I'm not sure of that. Miriam: So mom, who were the rest of the 12 people? Lewis: Now that's a good question. Miriam: The Francos. Lewis: The Francos. Miriam: So that's Bob and Eileen Franco. The Kahns? Were the Kahns? Lewis: Well yeah, Herb-- Miriam: Herb and Albert-- Lewis: --took charge of the financing, took charge of the banking. Miriam: So that's six out of the 12. Who were the--oh, the Goldsmiths. Were the Goldsmiths? Lewis: Yeah, I don't think they were early, no. I'm trying to remember. You know, I don't remember. Miriam: That's something my brother could probably actually give you the information on. Lewis: Well it might be in the book. Miriam: No, this is Kennedy. Lewis: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know what Jerry remembers. But he was, I think, about two years old when they built it. Miriam: But we can ask Jerry. Jerry can give them the information about the rest of the 12 people. Because I'm sure he will know. Bauman: That's fine, yeah, sure. Lewis: Okay. Bauman: I was going to ask you then, obviously, your children were born here? Lewis: Who? Bauman: Your children were born here. Is that correct? Miriam: Yeah. Lewis: Oh, you--Miriam was born here and Jerry was born here. Bauman: And how was Richland as a place to raise a family? How did you experience that? Lewis: It was a wonderful place to raise a family. Because families were very important. And we got everything for free. They needed people here. And they did everything to keep us. Because it was a population that moved in and moved out. Many of them came, looked around, and left. They wouldn't stay. [LAUGHTER] But I think it was a very nice little community. We loved it here. We made friends, and we had activities. And we were busy. And then, of course, I had a job. I was a secretary. I worked first it was still under DuPont until I think '45 when GE came in. Bauman: And what part of the Hanford site did you work at? Lewis: Well I worked down--I was downtown then in the Ad Building. And I worked for--I can't remember what--Overbeck was one of the fellows. I was one of the top secretaries here at that time. Bauman: And how long did you work? Lewis: I worked a long time. [LAUGHTER] I quit working when my son was born. And that was in '55. And I quit for six or seven years. And then I came back to work again. And I worked part time for a while. But secretaries always had jobs. They needed secretaries. And I was an experienced one. They used to say if you knew a typewriter from a washing machine, they'd hire you. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And what did you think of working at Hanford? How was your experience or your experiences working there? Lewis: What did I think of working there? Bauman: Yeah, how was it? Lewis: I liked it. It was interesting work. I didn’t know--I wasn't engineering knowledgeable. I didn't really know what they were doing. But it was a big secret. And in August 1945--I think that was when the first bomb was dropped. I remember working in the Ad Building there. And all the managers, everybody was on edge, waiting to hear the outcome of the dropped first bomb. Yes. Bauman: Is that when you first knew what was going on, what had been happening at Hanford? Lewis: Yeah, it was all very secret. And it didn't get out. Very few people knew what they were doing. Because very few people--it was a new art, or whatever you call it--a new technical thing. And they never knew, until it went off, if it was going to work. I worked for W. P. Overbeck. I worked for Vic Hansen from DuPont. He was one of the managers, a very good man. But he was only there for about six months after I hired in. Bauman: So when you first came for your jobs at Hanford, what did you know about the place? Were you just told it had something to do with the war effort? Lewis: We weren't told anything. I don't remember them--we knew we were working for the government and that it was very secretive. And that's all we knew. And I wasn't educated enough to know what we were doing. Now, some people may have surely knew. But as I say, engineering was something I didn't know anything about. But I learned some things. And I helped the wheels go around. Bauman: Yeah, did you have to get a special clearance to be able to work at Hanford? Lewis: Yeah, I had--we wore security badges. And before I quit, I got a top security clearance, because I'd been here a long time. And I worked for some of the top fellows. G. G. Lale--I can't remember what he was, but he was assistant to the man that was in charge. I think W. E. Johnson was in charge then. I'm not sure. Things are jumbled together for me. Because I'm so old I can't remember too accurately either. Bauman: You're doing great. [LAUGHTER] You're remembering a lot. Lewis: [LAUGHTER] I don't know. Bauman: So your husband working for the Hanford patrol as a photographer. How long did he work at Hanford? Lewis: He worked here a long time. And then he finally quit and went to Oregon--Gresham, right outside of Portland, and established his own business. That was a dream of his all his life. He wanted to have a studio, photographic studio, so he bought one. But however, he didn't look closely enough at it. And he spent a year trying to build a business. But he never could accomplish one that would keep us. And I was supposed to join him in about three months, quit my job and join him. But in three months’ time we knew that he needed my financial help. So I stayed on. And we visited back and forth. And he finally quit and came down here. And he got a job here as a photographer. Bauman: I wanted to ask you about President Kennedy's visit in 1963. Lewis: Yeah, that was--we went out. It was a hot, hot day. It was when the Dual Purpose Reactor--it was a D Reactor--was being dedicated. And Kennedy--it was a very hot day out in the desert. And there was a big crowd--I don't know, 40,000 50,000--a lot of people. And a friend of mine and I--Bonnie Goldsmith. They were here early. And we took our kids, Philip and Jerry, but-- Miriam: Not me. Lewis: Not you, no. And they were what, about five or six? Miriam: No, it was 1963. They were seven or eight. Lewis: Yeah, and they immediately ran around, got lost. We had to find them. But Kennedy spoke. He was the most impressive, the most glamorous man I think I've ever in my life seen. And he was a marvelous speaker. It was just a pleasure to sit down and look at him and listen to him. He was fantastic. And he had this magic wand that started the reactors at D Area. But this desert—I think there were 40,000, 50,000 people there. And it was a hot, hot day. And the cars were--length of cars there. I remember--when was D activated? I can't remember the date. But everybody spoke. It was a wonderful, wonderful affair. And it was so impressive that waving the wand started the reactor. So it made both electricity and the others. Bauman: And your husband took some photos that day? Lewis: Mm-hm. He took photos. And we have some of the photos in this book there. The information is there. My son gathered it all together. He published not very many of these. He just did--something that he wanted to do. So you may look at it, because the pictures and the information on there are much more accurate than what I'm giving you. [LAUGHTER] I don't remember a lot. Miriam might remember stuff when she started school here, too, that might be of interest. Okay? Miriam: Well he can ask the questions, and if he wants to ask me I'm sure he will. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Well I was going to ask are there any other major events that happened while you were working at Hanford that you recall or-- Lewis: Oh, well no doubt there were a lot of major events. But I don’t—I mean, if you ask me the question, I could answer specifically. But as a whole, the work went on daily. The scientists were working on it all the time. And when they dropped the bomb in, what was it, August? Was it August? Bauman: August, uh-huh. Lewis: Everybody was waiting. We didn't know what they were waiting for. But they were waiting. The top fellows knew that the bomb was going to be dropped. And we did get the information, finally. It was terrible, really. It was a terrible thing to do. But they felt that they really saved lives by dropping that bomb. Because they stopped—I mean, they weren't winning, they weren't losing. It was a very iffy situation. And that, of course, stopped everything. It was terrible. Bauman: I was going to ask you—Richland initially was a government town, federal government. At some point it became an independent-- Lewis: They sold the houses to the inhabitants. Bauman: So were you able to buy your house at that point, then, buy a house? Lewis: Yeah, we bought--what was the first house we bought? I think it was a B house. Miriam: Was that the house where I was born? Lewis: Yeah, it was a B house. Miriam: Yeah. Lewis: Two-bedroom house, a duplex. Bauman: And do you remember, were people in Richland excited about the possibility to do that sort of thing, to have independent-- Lewis: Do they have what? Bauman: Were people in Richland excited about being able to buy their own homes, be sort of independent? Lewis: Oh, yeah. By that time they will permanently implanted here. And the job was going to go on. [COUGH] Excuse me. And they sold the houses for pittances. Especially the expensive houses were real bargains--the prefabs not so much, because they didn't cost much in the first place. But I think I was living in a B house then, a two-bedroom duplex. And I bought the whole house. And we rented out the duplex. And I lived there for a while. And then we sold it and bought a ranch house. [LAUGHTER] I've lived in, I think, every house here. I lived in a B house, in a ranch house, and in a--what else? In our house. Miriam: I don't have the letters memorized. [LAUGHTER] Lewis: Yeah, right. Bauman: Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet, anything that-- Lewis: I kept upgrading myself. Miriam: In terms of history, probably not, although you did ask about--Mom, I was just curious, because this is of course what I like to know, where did you grocery shop and stuff when you first came here? Lewis: Well we had a Keiser's store, a grocery. Miriam: When you first came here in '44? Lewis: Well you know, I don't know what we had then. We had a Keiser--we had grocery stores. I think Safeway was here then. Miriam: Oh, really? Lewis: Yeah, right. Miriam: Yeah, I was just curious. Lewis: Mm-hm. I don't remember a lot. But I think there was plenty of shopping. Miriam: Mm-hm. Were you happy with the schools you sent us to? Lewis: Yes, I was active in the schools. And my relationships were very good. Our teachers were excellent. They were dedicated, because they came out here in the middle of nowhere. [LAUGHTER] What did you think about your teachers? Miriam: Well I just thought--this is my impression, is that because there were so many scientists here that education was a value and that I remember that school levies, when I was growing up, because I born in 1958, the school levies always passed. Nobody considered that they shouldn't be spending public money to support education. And I always thought that was because of the heavy concentration of really highly educated people that came here. Bauman: So what schools did you go to then? Miriam: I went to Jefferson Elementary, Chief Joseph Junior High, and Richland High School. And my brother--Jerry went to Jason Lee to begin with. Mom, do you remember? Jerry didn't start at Jefferson. Lewis: No, he didn't. Miriam: Jason Lee? Lewis: I don't remember. Miriam: I think so. Anyhow, he started a different school and then went to Jefferson when we moved to the neighborhood where we-- Lewis: Lived. Miriam: --Grew up. And where Mom still lives. Bauman: And so, those elementary schools must have been pretty much new when your kids started there, or close to. Lewis: Yeah. Jefferson was just built, I think. It wasn't very old. Miriam: Yeah, I don't know. Bauman: And just given the influx of population suddenly, all these young families, there had to have been a new school being opened that served the population there. Anything else you can think of that either one of you--we haven't talked about, or--? Miriam: Well just that I think, Mom, you never thought that you would come out here and spend the rest your life here. [LAUGHTER] Lewis: No, never. I never thought that. And it was away from my family, and from friends. However, we managed. We went back to Minnesota every summer. [LAUGHTER] Our families were there. Miriam: But I want to come back a little bit to the synagogue. Because as a very, very tiny minority here, we families banded together to build the synagogue, it was a very, very strong community. And still, it's not as strong now in that same way, but these people were all like additional parents, or like aunts and uncles to all of us. And my mom was called Aunt Doris. My dad was called Uncle Walt. That was how we addressed the parents in those families, us as children. And that it's interesting to have this group of Jews wandering in this particular desert. [LAUGHTER] Because it really has a very, very--it's a microcosm of the whole Richland thing, where you have people coming from all over and creating a very strong, very close community, because they are away from all of the places they came from. And our Jewish community reflected that same phenomenon. Bauman: Absolutely, yeah, right, thrown together from all these disparate areas. Lewis: As time went on, we never intended--at first, we intended to move back to Minnesota when this job was finished. It was never finished. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] It just kept going. Lewis: Yeah, so we stayed on. And it was our home. We loved it here. I love it here. Bauman: That's a similar theme I get. A lot of people who I've talked to come here thinking they'll stay here for a little while and then end up staying for 40 years or 60 years or however long. [LAUGHTER] Lewis: Yeah, right. A little while became forever. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right, right. Well I want to thank you very much for coming in today. Lewis: Yeah, I'm afraid I wasn't much help, because my memory's so bad. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: This was terrific. Lewis: But it was fun. It was a wonderful experience. We loved it here. I still do. Bauman: Well thank you again. Appreciate it. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 239 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Ad Building D Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2013 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Lewis, Sam Walter Elkins, Meyer & Tilly Overbeck, W.P. Lale, G.G Johnson, W.E. Kennedy, John F. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doris Lewis Description An account of the resource An interview with Doris Lewis conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.). Public Schools Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Ad Building D Reactor DuPont General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff211cc318122fcc50072f9ab2958fa5f.jpg ec2465e5aaa046f025918d37309c0175 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F257cc8ce9666073c659a488f791afcbf.mp4 094e1fc70bcb1fe1b557c01b40629f9e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Knutson, Lucille Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Knutson_Lucille Robert Bauman: Yes, she was one of the first ones we had out here. Actually, it probably was in June then. She was one of the first people. Lucille Knutson: She's quite a lady. She's a character. [LAUGHTER] We belong to the Model T Club together. Bauman: Oh, really? Knutson: There's where met her. Bauman: Oh, okay, great. Knutson: They restored Model Ts and so did we. Bauman: That's how you got to know each other. Knutson: Yeah. Bauman: That's great. Knutson: We've been good friends for 20 years. Man one: We're rolling here. Bauman: Ready to go? Man one: I'll adjust this as you go. Bauman: Okay, we're going to go ahead and get started, if that's okay? Knutson: Okay. Bauman: All right, so I'm going to start by having you say your name and then spell it for us. Knutson: Okay, my name is Lucille Knutson. L-U-C-I-L-L-E. Knutson is K-N-U-T-S-O-N. Bauman: Okay, great. All right, and my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 13th of 2013, and we are having this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So, Lucille, let's start by just having me--I'm going to ask you to tell me about how you came to the Tri-Cities, what brought you here, when you came, that sort of thing. Knutson: Well, in 1940, Palmer and I were married. We ran away and got married in Baker, Montana. And in December the war broke out, so anyway--or was it a year later? Anyway, there was a call for carpenters to go to an ammunition depot in South Dakota. So my husband and his brother and his father, who were all carpenters, went there, finished that job. There was a call to go on to Mountain Home, Idaho for Air Force base. They went there, and then that job was ending, and friends from there had come out here and sent us a letter because there were no telephones, no cell phones in those days, and told us to come here because there was work here. So we went down to the ration board to get gas and tires to come here, and they said, where did you hear about this place? There's nothing going on there, no jobs that are affiliated with the war. So we got the gas and tires and came here. They give us gas and tires to go home, but we came here instead. So we landed in August of 1943 in Pasco. Knutson: Yeah, we came to Pasco. Our instructions were to go to the employment agency, so we did. Oh, my word—hot and windy, and I thought we'd come to the end of the world, when we got here. So these friends that had come previously had written to us and gave us some instructions. So we head out toward Hanford, and we come to a farmhouse called Barnett's farm. It had a big sign near the mailbox. So we turned in there and found our friends, and we never did go to Hanford to the trailer court. We stayed right there. So we had eggs and milk and everything right from the farmer, and it was perfect. We weren't out in the hot sun. It was really neat. And the fellows went to work, and we stayed here. And my son was two years old, and I was pregnant with the next one--no hospital in Richland, no hospital in Hanford at that time. So she was born in Lady of Lourdes, and Lady of Lourdes was—[LAUGHTER] well, everybody out at Hanford had to go there, the people that were having babies, and they were in the hallways. I mean, every spot was taken for those in the maternity ward. And we stayed here ‘til my husband got called to the service. So we moved to Sunnyside to be near relatives because I didn't want to go clear back to Wisconsin, where my folks were, with two little ones, so we went to Sunnyside. So he was to report at the--the buses were taking them to Spokane, and when he got on the bus, they said because he had a family at home--it was near the end of the war by that time, so he didn't have to go. So we came back to Richland to work on the plant here. Bauman: And so what sort of work did your husband do? Knutson: He was a carpenter, so he worked out building out there and also then started building the homes here in Richland because there was nothing here. When we came from Pasco that first day, there was a cow tethered down by Jackson's Tavern in Richland, and there was John Dam's Grocery Store and a bank and one other building. I can't remember what that was, but there were three buildings in the downtown area and a few houses where the people lived here. And this is Mr. Barnett's farm out there, he had sold it to the government but had gone to work for the government, so he got to stay in his home. So that's how come we rented space from him. Bauman: And so you stayed there until you moved to Sunnyside. When you back from Sunnyside, where did you move to? Knutson: By that time, we got a three-bedroom prefab. So we were in that a short time, and by then, they were trading houses. If you lived in one, you could trade it. It was before houses were sold. So we traded and got the B house that we're in now. So we've been in that house for over 60 years, but we remodeled it into a single unit. Bauman: So you mentioned first arriving in the heat. Any other first impressions of the place? Knutson: Oh! [LAUGHTER] First impression of this area? Bauman: Yeah. Knutson: It was beastly hot. It was around 100 degrees, and we knew that we were headed for our trailer court out there at Hanford, which wasn't very inviting, but we didn't have to go. But there was nothing here. I just thought we'd come to the end of the world. It was just--couldn't hardly wait for this job to get over with, so we could go home again—never, ever expecting to stay. Bauman: And then you said your husband, after the war, was involved in building homes? Knutson: Yes, they were building—I don't know exactly when they started building the houses here in Richland, but he built—the prefabs were moved in kind of as pre-fabricated houses, but then he worked on the other houses also. And then when the war was over and the houses were sold, he went into business, and he put basements under existing houses. So it was quite a lucrative business because everybody, every house in Richland had a half basement. So he was a busy guy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So you said you had one child already, and then you had a second child. What sort of community was Richland like into the late 1940s, early 1950s for you and your family? Knutson: Well, in the '40s, when we first got here, we had to stand in line for everything--the grocery store, post office, everything. And as it was later on, the town began to develop, then there was Central United Protestant Church. I think the city fathers thought there would be one church that would serve everybody, but that didn't happen. The Catholics and the Lutherans and the Baptists, if I remember correctly, wanted their own. So they branched off from this and started their own. So schools were built. Churches were built. It really was a nice place to live. Bauman: So you saw a lot of growth taking place? Knutson: Oh, yes, from the original houses here in town to the houses that were built--the alphabet houses. And then, of course, later on, when everybody owned their homes, then people started building some of their own homes. But there was an awful lot of remodeling, and it begin to look like a regular town instead of a government town. Bauman: But at some point in the 1950s, the city became an independent city, right, from the federal government control. Knutson: Yeah, I remember our first mayor was a lady. I don't remember what her name was. But, yeah, it began to be a normal town--schools, churches, stores. Bauman: Were you able to--did you rent your house initially? Knutson: Yes. Bauman: Did you have to buy it at some point? Knutson: Yes, in the '60s the houses were sold, so you had a chance to buy your house, and we did. In fact, we bought some of the prefabs too, and they wanted them moved. So we bought some of those and moved them, set them up. I think it was in the Highlands of Kennewick. But you know, those prefabs are still standing. Some people have put basements under them. All of them needed foundations because it was temporary, but the alphabet houses were more permanent because they had basements. Bauman: And you mentioned Central United Protestant Church being established. Do you remember when that was, around when that was? Knutson: No, it must've been soon, and I really don't remember. But that was the first one, and then it branched off to south side and north side and the different--some were Baptists. The CUP was Methodist-based, so other denominations began to build their own. But it must've been in the '60s. Bauman: And I imagine there must have been people coming here from all over the United States. Knutson: Oh, of course, and when you had the termination winds, carloads of people would leave. When we first got here, we were really lucky. We had a trailer house. Because some people were living in chicken coops. Because some people were living in cardboard boxes, I mean, until the barracks got built out there. I mean, there was nothing here. So we felt real fortunate to have a house to crawl into. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: As you mention, a lot of people sort of came and then left--stayed for a while and then left, either because of the termination winds or whatever. What made stay? What made you and your family stay? Knutson: Yeah, we stayed. We're still here. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was it just because your husband had employment? Is that one reason why you stayed? Knutson: Well, we liked it, and he was busy. He worked at Hanford, building that, and then he worked on the houses here in Richland. And then when they were sold, why, he went into business for himself, so we just stayed. We like it. Bauman: I wonder if you recall any sort of community events that happened in Richland during that time, in he '40s, '50s? Knutson: Well, we had Frontier Days. That was the big thing--parades and celebrities coming. That was one of the things. But I don't know. You kind of had to make your own fun because there was nothing here. So we took advantage of the river. We had a boat, and we had a boat dock down at the river, and our kids grew up down there. Everybody was in the same boat. We had square dances because we had to make our own fun. And some of the square dances were held in the schools. I remember we square danced at Jefferson. And there were other square—in the '60s, early '70s, that was kind of the thing. There were square dancers all over. That's kind of faded out, but there was a big one in Kennewick that we attended. So it was kind of a do-it-yourself entertainment program. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what was Richland like in terms of a place to raise children? Knutson: Oh, it was great--great place to raise kids. There was schools and churches and Boy Scouts and the river, and our kids were so busy, they didn't have time to get in trouble. And remember, this town was all young people. We all had children. We just did our own thing--our own clubs, our own—and it was great to raise kids. By that time, we had a swimming pool, and it was this time was really conducive to children, because we all had kids. Bauman: You mentioned when you first arrived that there was only a few businesses downtown. Were there places to shop and things like that, or at what point did those things come in? Knutson: Well, there was nothing here when we came. There was John--like I said before, the one little grocery store, and you stood in line around the block to get into the store even. And pretty soon there was—grocery stores started popping up. And the Uptown started to grow. Businesses came in. I think that was probably in the '60s also. I don't really know. But I remember a grocery store in our neighborhood over on Goethals. And then in the downtown area there was a department store. I can't remember the name of it. And a few restaurants started to happen. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Let's see, so you came in '43, so you were here then. Were you here or in Sunnyside when the war ended then? Knutson: We were in Sunnyside when the war ended. And up until that time, we really didn't know what—the secret was really held good. We really didn't know. But the day that the war ended, the farmers came in from Sunnyside, and they threw watermelons. The downtown area on Sunnyside was just a big mess, and the armory came out with hoses to clean everything down. I mean, there was quite a celebration. Why they were smashing fruits and vegetables, I don't know, but they were. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So it wasn't until then that you and your husband found out-- Knutson: That's when we realized what was going on out here, mm-hm. Bauman: So when you first came here, it was something for the war? Knutson: That's it; it was a war effort over here, but we didn't know. We suspected, but the secret was really kept really good. When we first came, when the Mountain Home job was done, friends were here. I don't know how they found out, but they wrote to us. But the Ration Board didn't know there was anything going on. It was a secret then, too. It was very well kept, this secret. Bauman: Do you remember what your response was when you found out, or what you thought? Knutson: Well, no, not really. It was the war effort, and it was--I remember when we first came here how angry some of the farmers and some of the people were that their farms were taken away from them and so forth, and all the promises that were made, I hope they're carried through, but-- Bauman: And I was going to ask you then, when your husband--obviously, 1943 is very early in the construction of the project and so forth, and he was working in construction, right? Knutson: When we first came, he worked out at Hanford building that, and then he came into town to build the houses. When they realized that it wasn't going to be a temporary thing, that all these people that were here and staying needed a place to live, so they built the houses. And then, of course, when they were sold, then he stayed here and put basements under most and did a lot of remodeling, too. Bauman: When he was working out at the site, the Hanford site, how did he get to the site? Were there buses? Knutson: Buses, there were buses, mm-hmm. Bauman: And did he--it was obviously a very secret sort of secure place. Did he have to have a clearance to go work out there? Knutson: Oh, yes, he had to have a clearance, and he had a Q clearance because he was in all the areas. And later on in the late '60s, I went to work for the government. I worked at the Federal Building. I had a Q clearance also. And it was interesting; in 1969 another couple and Palmer and I were going to Europe because our neighbors that lived—he was Atomic Energy Commission--was in the embassy in Austria, and they invited us to come. So two couples of us went over there, and the Q clearance came into play because before I left, security called me and interviewed me to tell me what to do in case I got stopped over there, captured, or whatever. I didn't know anything, of course, [LAUGHTER] that was going on out--but that's how careful they were. Just let us know what to do just in case something like that did happen. Bauman: Right, and so your job at Federal Building was with Department of Energy or--? Knutson: No, my job at the Federal Building--there was a little post office then set up, taking care of the Hanford mail, and I was in charge of the certified and registered mail. So all of the Hanford mail came through our place before it went into the post office, I imagine, to check--another check. Bauman: Sure, so you have been in Richland, for the most part, since 1943 other than a little bit time in Sunnyside. You've seen a lot of changes. Knutson: Oh, yes. Bauman: What do you think has changed the most, or what have been the most significant changes you've seen? Knutson: What do I think-- Bauman: What do you think have been the most significant changes that you've seen since you've been here? Knutson: Well, probably the development of the town. It turned into--we have everything we need here. We've stores, and we've taken the city, and everybody's taken advantage of the river. It's just a nice little town that's developed from all of this. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about, any stories you have from those early years or memories that you'd like to share that you haven't shared? Knutson: Stories, well—[LAUGHTER] An interesting story was when it came time for this baby to be born--no hospital in Hanford, no hospital in Richland. So we went over to Hanford at Lady of Lourdes, and she was a preemie baby, so there was no way they could keep that baby in the hospital. There were babies in the hallways and everything. So the nuns gave us instructions of what to do with this tiny, little three-pound baby. So we came home, and my husband built a shelter in our bedroom made of cheesecloth with a window. And so people couldn't get to her, like relatives and friends that came to see her. And our instructions were to take care of this child with as least bit of handling as possible, because it took too much energy from her. So she grew into a—we did it. We followed all the instructions that they gave us and took care of this baby at home. But it was pioneer days, it seemed like, in those days. It was just you did the best you could with everything. And then it came time for Paul, our son, to go to school. The neighbors next door, their children were going on a bus to a Lutheran school in Kennewick. So they took him along on the bus every morning. So his first year of school was over there. Then we moved into the B house, where we are now, and he went to Jefferson then. Because the schools in those days were just barely being built, and so this was an easy way for us for him to get a good start. Bauman: Pretty much brand new schools. Knutson: Mm-hmm, so it's been great. Bauman: Okay. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and talking to me and sharing your stories. Knutson: Well, [LAUGHTER] okay, I hope I gave some information that you could use. I don't know. I hope this fellow over here can edit this real good, so I don't look like an idiot. [LAUGHTER] Man one: Boy! I'll give you my word. Knutson: Okay, good, make me look good. Man one: You got it. Bauman: Well, thanks very much, Lucille. I appreciate it. Knutson: Oh, you're welcome. Was it okay? Bauman: Oh, yeah, it was great, thank you. Knutson: Okay. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943-2013 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lucille Knutson Description An account of the resource An interview with Lucille Knutson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Lucille Knutson passed away on August 12, 2017. <a href="http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tricityherald/obituary.aspx?pid=186392919">Obituary</a>. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-8-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-16: Metadata v1 created – [RG] Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions. Richland (Wash.) Secrecy