91 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F58d870eb9879ba6754c155dc72cd8c4e.rtf 87dbf969d0daa7bcb6cf5094507fa89f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Department of Energy Hanford Collection Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archival collections in the Department of Energy Hanford Collection, managed by WSU Tri-Cities Hanford History Project. Collections are open and available for research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Department of Energy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford Site Newspaper Collection Description An account of the resource Twenty-four (24) bound volumes of the Hanford sites employee and contractor employee newspaper from 1947 to 1982. Through the years it has had name changes, publisher changes, frequency of publication changes, and format changes. Seventeen volumes have been titled "Hanford GE News" from 1947 until 1964 and corresponds with the following newspaper titles and date: Hanford Works News 1947 - 1954 and General Electric News 1955 - 1964. Three volumes have been titled "Hanford Project News" (1965-1966, 1967-1968, 1969-1970) and corresponds to the newspaper title Hanford Project News. Four volumes have been titled "Hanford News" (1971-1972, 1973-1975, 1976-1978, and 1979-1982) and corresponds to the newspaper title Hanford News. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project/Department of Energy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5bad99314c51d616bcab8f28756d96d7.rtf 85775a3d70e1e8c703b5497e9c9aa3d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Department of Energy Hanford Collection Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archival collections in the Department of Energy Hanford Collection, managed by WSU Tri-Cities Hanford History Project. Collections are open and available for research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Department of Energy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource N Reactor Archive Collection Description An account of the resource Artist's renditions, photocopies, maps, blueprints, magazine, a report, and a document. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project/Department of Energy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8a644fe99189c4612e11da2bfc71944f.rtf 0a52de6f7a20c0a25028c3fb920b75e2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Department of Energy Hanford Collection Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archival collections in the Department of Energy Hanford Collection, managed by WSU Tri-Cities Hanford History Project. Collections are open and available for research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Department of Energy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russian Visits to Hanford Description An account of the resource The collection contains color photographs, color transparencies, color copies of photographs, and contact sheets. These all relate to the Russian visits to the Hanford Site in the 1990s and early 2000s. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project/Department of Energy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcc935eed6fd84f2ec54f2ba0132e0947.docx 12aa2465d466b2bba89db20e2241e0de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CHREST Museum Collection Description An account of the resource The CREHST collection contained numerous documents including maps, books, articles, and brochures relaying the history of Hanford and the Tri-Cities. The CREHST collection chronicles the research and lifestyles of the Hanford workers, as well as how Hanford helped shaped the Tri-Cities, as well as important events that have occurred throughout the Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F669df493dee4eb0b6840ee2ebc924088.docx a458b74fb356ebfe8243ef5eac1270be Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilfred E. Johnson Collection Description An account of the resource The collection contains newspaper clippings, correspondence, photographs, speeches/presentations, publication by Wilfrid E. Johnson, and other miscellaneous documents (i.e. programs, invitations, books and booklets, personal research materials, etc.). The bulk of the documents cover Wilfrid E. Johnson’s U. S. Atomic Energy Commission terms (1966-1972). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F947ca12d76de5c3f0447a7b935ebdf7f.docx e397b5ea55887c4b86034ccd6524b507 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emmett Moore Hanford Environmental Issues Collection Description An account of the resource This collection consists of documents (the bulk of which are from the 1980s and 1990s) pertaining to environmental issues at the Hanford Nuclear Site. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7963866badf89854128aa57d17596b3b.docx d83355a5bef55182a51bb951eef79037 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harry and Juanita Anderson Collection (Hanford-White Bluffs Pioneer Association) Description An account of the resource This collection consists of documents pertaining to the residents of White Bluffs, Hanford, and the surrounding areas that were forced by the government to sell their land and leave the area, in order to make way for the Manhattan Project. Housed in the collection is information regarding the reunions and picnics that were held for the families affected by the relocation. There are numerous correspondences that give an intimate look into the thoughts and feelings of the residents who were forced to sell their land; and where they ended up years later. There are land appraisals from the government documenting how much each tract of land was worth. Also included are several maps that give a more in depth look at who owned each plot of land, and where it was located in respect to where the town was. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford-White Bluffs Pioneer Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6e5c25a11830017a16edca0c001e8e87.docx 971b99760353f094487f5804320e8cf8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michael Hill Pasco Holding and Reconsignment Point Collection Description An account of the resource This collection consists of documents pertaining to the Pasco Holding and Reconsignment Point, a supply depot in operation during Hanford construction in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pasco Holding and Reconsignment Point Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1442d4d1ac2f2ac6cf15c488498fe84f.docx 03606ad65ac5f928ba0b88e174745842 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Richland Villager Description An account of the resource From issue no. 1: “Villagers Inc., a non-profit organization open to all residents of Richland and nearby tract homes in the area, was formed here last month for the purpose of ‘providing means for contributing to the welfare, recreation, comfort, entertainment, and education of all persons residing here.’ Operating under the direction of a temporary board of directors and officers, representing all the major groups in the village, Villagers, Inc., is already publishing a weekly newspaper (the first issue of which is in your hands)…” H. Hayden Rector is credited with the idea of a village-wide organization to provide newspaper, library, and other cultural/educational services to Richland. Donald I. Graham Jr., was named the temporary president of Villagers, Inc., in 1945. The newspaper had an initial weekly run as “The Villager” from March 8, 1945 September 13, 1945. The September 20 issue saw a name change to “The Richland Villager” and a larger newsprint format until publication ceased on March 2, 1950, with the final issue in vol V, no. 53. The collection at Hanford History Project goes until December 12, 1949. There is a break in publication and at some point in the 1950s the Richland Villager picked up publication. Hanford History Project Collections start at vol. VI, no. 42 on April 21, 1960 and proceed until May 31, 1963. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Villagers, Inc. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-1963 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4I https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7cf796f8abf5b4e0d52da6140f6cc9c9.docx 8996c20d30cf8d315b557887fcede481 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arlys D. Wineinger Day's Pay Collection Description An account of the resource The collection includes archive and artifact material from the Day’s Pay bomber and the Army Air Corps career of Arlys Wineinger. The artifacts are all from the Day’s Pay bomber. The archival material includes records of Arlys’ study materials for the Army Air Corps pilot test, photographs taken from the Day’s Pay bomber in action, and letters and cards from Hanford Engineer Works employees to Arlys. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arlys D. Wineinger Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1942-1945 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4J https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa9488c6a37ae04873b1d93c519ae66cf.doc 64c9e4e50b02e9e60b578de0af5c30af Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richland Teen Canteen, Inc. and "The Hut" Subject The topic of the resource Coffee House Description An account of the resource Collection contains 1.) tax information (1968-1969); 2.) Richland Teen Canteen, Inc. Bylaws, Articles of Incorporation, building lease, inventory information, operating instructions, employee information (SSNs cannot be released), and lists of names, addresses, and telephone numbers; 3.) information on coffee houses; 4.) miscellaneous flyers and information from bulletin boards in coffee house; 5.) 1958 Richland and West Richland Telephone Directory; 6.) Recreational map of Richland; and 7.) 1967 Richland Annual Report. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richland Teen Canteen, Inc. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4K https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3fd976eef93de3dc4929d849c6264005.doc 00f8efa90d1496df83ed8deb9599a86f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Louise and Elmer Foskett Tri-City Performing Arts and Hanford Science Center Collection Description An account of the resource Collection contains music programs, newspaper clippings, photographs, and other miscellaneous items from and about various acting, chorale, and orchestra groups from the Tri-Cities including the Richland Meistersingers, Richland Light Opera Company, Richland Players, Richland String Quartet, Treble Clef, Columbia Chorale, Richland Symphony Orchestra (and Chorale Society) and Mid-Columbia Symphony Orchestra. Collection also contains newspaper clippings, photographs, and other miscellaneous items regarding Elmer Foskett as host of the Hanford Science Center. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4L Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5f48c5742bbe5a6b005230ebb7b45a1a.doc 9653e3aad4e552ac04b5d211f225d900 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Battelle's Company Newsletter (Greenie) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Pacific Northwest Division Publications Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974-1997 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4M https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0802c900182e1b5c7e38f408bd64aa6d.docx 96377d3a6fb4b00776a01f969034e1c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bill Kennedy Document Collection Description An account of the resource This collection consists of various reports and literature collected by Bill Kennedy during his career in waste control at the Hanford Site. This material is published but not readily available in the library or public document system. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG4N https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F70b9f5695281bb0026cfb3a64a270ff1.docx 503c5ed3fe1658d96f7c0cb3b8054be8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource American Nuclear Society - Eastern Washington Chapter Collection Description An account of the resource This collection was donated by a former secretary, Teresa Tritt, of the American Nuclear Society, in Richland, WA. The collection consists of approximately 600 items, which include documents, photographs, films and other media pertaining to public awareness, education, and advocacy nuclear science and technology. The bulk of which are dated from the 1970s and 1980s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource American Nuclear Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG5A https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc90cbe0907c6b233f5e2e9b201d4127d.docx 22b8a3cfef3042f91dd30229509ef8ae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST AV and Oral Histories Description An account of the resource This collection consists of oral histories and audiovisual material held by the CREHST Museum. Part of the collection is oral histories collected by CREHST, both one-on-one and in group settings, the latter recorded public events the museum put on. The collection also includes copyrighted material used for educational purposes. In addition, the collection contains material (oral histories, event programming, and educational material) from the Hanford Science Center, located in the Richland Federal Building, that closed down before the establishment of CREHST. CREHST closed in early 2014. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968-2013 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2P_4A https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa78ce8c0801a1c0046b2a01fc30fd96e.docx cb2d06c71602c0051645d5da5ed01d64 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford History Project Finding Aids Description An account of the resource Finding aids for archive collections held by the Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities. The Hanford History Project collections generally relate to Hanford, but encompassing material outside of the Department of Energy Hanford Collection scope. This focus includes the town of Richland, pre-1943 and post-1990 Hanford Site history, and materials relating to Hanford not produced on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. See list of finding aids for specific collections. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral History Collection Description An account of the resource The collection includes 30 video oral histories, 18 audio oral histories, 42 other video tapes, and a binder of notes and correspondence from the Mid Columbia Oral History Association/Coalition. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-2004 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2P_4B https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3daf4ac842bdddc7ac0e11646b39a6d5.docx a94fe48282ca217b63ff6479fd460772 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Robberies in the towns of Hanford and White Bluffs, WA The White Bluffs Bank was robbed in March of 1922 by three men: John Burke, C.L. Potter and John Morrison<a title="">[1]</a>, and each were sentenced between 5 and 25 years in prison.<a title="">[2]</a> However, rumors persist that the bank was robbed multiple times in the few decades of its existence. In 1977, Virginia Kincaid Black, the daughter of White Bluffs bank manger W.J. Kincaid, gave an account of her fathers business which stated that one day she and the entire town witnessed two robbers getting apprehended by the police after attempting to rob the First National Bank of White Bluffs.<a title="">[3]</a> Kincaid said “it was quite a day for White Bluffs, to go out to go to the community hall…and the robbers went by.”<a title="">[4]</a> She also said that the robbers did not get very far, only making it to Yakima. However, no date is given for this robbery in the interview itself, and searches of the local newspapers and other literature of the time only turn up information on the first robbery in March of 1922. With all respect and gratitude towards her telling, Virginia Kincaid is likely mistaken about the second robbery, creating a narrative that has persisted for years and one that has ascended to the status of local legend. It is quite possible that the robbery she is referring to is the robbery of H.H. Boie’s dry goods and general store in November of 1915. H.H. Boie was a local businessman, operating the store, which opened March 17, 1910, after he came to the area in the summer of 1909<a title="">[5]</a>. Additionally, he also served as a freemason and his wife was very active in women’s clubs around the area for several years. The two robbers stole about one hundred dollars ($2,988.48 in 2023) from Boie’s safe, with the two men making the theft cleanly or having “left behind no clew” (sic) according to the Kennewick Courier.<a title="">[6]</a> They then retreated to a cabin about 40 miles away in nearby Beverly, before Sheriff C.E. Duffy and deputy James Shepherd arrested the two men, holding them in Prosser after they failed to provide satisfactory justification for their presence in the county<a title="">[7]</a>. Boie’s store was robbed again in a separate incident on the night of November 1st, 1932, in which the thieves stole between five and six hundred dollars worth of merchandise, according to Boie’s own estimation. The thieves broke in by breaking the padlock and picking the lock on the front door<a title="">[8]</a>. Some of the merchandise stolen included “cigarettes, cigars, gum, watches, rings, men’s and women’s clothing, underwear, gloves, women’s hats, groceries, etc.”<a title="">[9]</a> Boie didn’t discover that his store had been robbed until the following morning, after which officers were promptly notified and dispatched to look for the thieves. Boie’s store was also robbed a few months prior on July 29th, 1932. The robbers took a single .22 caliber revolver, after entering through a smashed window, and according to the White Bluffs Spokesman, “Nothing else has been missed”<a title="">[10]</a>, meaning the thieves were only after the weapon. No other robberies were reported for the rest of the time that Boie owned his store, which was until his death in April of 1942. H.H. Boie was survived by his wife and children, as evidenced by the announcement of his funeral service in May of 1942.<a title="">[11]</a> Boie’s legacy was one of service: he served as a chaplain in the freemasons in the months before his death, according to the Kennewick Courier-Reporter, in their reporting on the new officers within the freemasons.<a title="">[12]</a> That, in conjunction with owning his store for 31 years adds up to a record of a lifetime of service to the community. Bibliography “Budget Review Board of W.B. School Meets”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 7, 1942. “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. August 4, 1932. “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. March 18, 1937. “Liutenant Weihl Now Army Recruiting Officer”. The Kennewick Courier Reporter. January 22, 1942. Kincaid Black, Virginia. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614">http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614</a> Parker, Martha Berry. Tales Of Richland, White Bluffs and Hanford 1805-1943: Before The Atomic Reserve. Fairfield, Washington: Ye Galleon Press, 1979. “Robbers Blow Safe And Secure $100 in Hanford” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. November 11, 1915. “To Try Allen Again”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 25, 1922. “Thieves Loot Boie Store At Hanford Tuesday Night”. White Bluffs Spokesman. November 3, 1932. U.S. Inflation Calculator”. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/. April 26, 2023. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> “To Try Allen Again”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 25, 1922. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Martha Berry Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford 1805-1943: Before the Atomic Reserve (Fairfield, Washington:Ye Galleon Press, 1979), pp. 215 </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. March 18, 1937. </div> <div> <a title="">[6]</a> “Robbers Blow Safe And Secure $100 in Hanford” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. November 11, 1915. </div> <div> <a title="">[7]</a> “Robbers Blow Safe And Secure $100 in Hanford” The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. November 11, 1915. </div> <div> <a title="">[8]</a> “Thieves Loot Boie Store At Hanford Tuesday Night”. White Bluffs Spokesman. November 3, 1932. </div> <div> <a title="">[9]</a> Thieves Loot Boie Store At Hanford Tuesday Night”. White Bluffs Spokesman. November 3, 1932. </div> <div> <a title="">[10]</a> “Hanford Happenings”. White Bluffs Spokesman. August 4, 1932. </div> <div> <a title="">[11]</a> “Budget Review Board of W.B. School Meets”. The Kennewick Courier-Reporter. May 7, 1942. </div> <div> <a title="">[12]</a> “Liutenant Weihl Now Army Recruiting Officer”. The Kennewick Courier Reporter. January 22, 1942. </div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The robberies of Hanford and White Bluffs, WA Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Written by Mark Schafer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d99616107b324f5ebd55f99fcb9176a.docx 2c0ebe3d135a3f865f0cdb7f6734f3c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guide to the Pre-Manhattan Project Towns of Hanford, White Bluffs, and Richland Subject The topic of the resource The towns of Hanford, White Bluffs and Richland Washington prior to 1943. Description An account of the resource Project funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Willard J. Kincaid Willard J. Kincaid is a fondly-remembered and prominent figure in the pre-Manhattan Project history of the Hanford area. A banker and community advocate, he helped develop the White Bluffs area into a thriving town while taking on several projects to better the community such as the Priest Rapids Irrigation District, where he served on the board and helped to secure the necessary funds to get the district up and running. Kincaid was also the proprietor and manager of the White Bluffs Bank, which served White Bluffs and its surrounding areas including Vernita and the Priest Rapids Valley. Kincaid worked for the White Bluffs Bank from the time he relocated to White Bluffs from Farmer, Washington in 1909, to the time he retired in the 1940s, when he subsequently relocated to Riverside, California.<a title="">[1]</a> During his many decades in White Bluffs, Kincaid and other businessmen built a golf course, started several commercial clubs and women’s clubs, and Kincaid was often the chair of many of these meetings.<a title="">[2]</a> In December of 1930, he was elected to the Priest Rapids Irrigation District’s board of trustees after having resigned his director’s position in September to legitimize the project and get it off the ground.<a title="">[3]</a> Irrigation projects in this part of the Priest Rapids Valley had a short and troubled history of fiscal insolvency and difficulty delivering water, starting with the Priest Rapids Irrigation and Power Company in 1905 and continuing until the eviction of residents in 1943.<a title="">[4]</a> Eventually the Priest Rapids Irrigation District did get off the ground and operated from 1920 to 1943, when it was condemned by the federal government in an effort to clear the land for use on the Manhattan Project<a title="">[5]</a>. However, due to various snags within the court system, the district was unable to operate for several years, according to Kincaid’s journal entries. During the Depression, which by Kincaid’s own admission started affecting him and his business in 1931, the financial situation was so dire that the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad Company had to float Kincaid and others the necessary money to keep the district in operation, which was also supplemented with money from the State Irrigation Revolving Fund to deepen the power canal, which would strengthen the power plant’s operations in the district<a title="">[6]</a>. The land itself was the subject of a lawsuit in 1950, where it was formally dissolved under eminent domain, after it was established that the United States of America had no further interest or use for the Priest Rapids site.<a title="">[7]</a> Elsewhere in local affairs, Kincaid had a hand in the construction of the Soldier Settlements. Construction on the settlement began in 1922, with he and others in the community appearing in front of the board of Regents at Washington State University, then known as Washington State College, successfully convincing the University to sell 840 acres of land to the committee on which Kincaid was a member<a title="">[8]</a>. Later, in 1925, the land settlement project was brought forth again, and again Kincaid made his case, urging a joint session of the legislature to adjust so that the land was suitable for such a settlement.<a title="">[9]</a> After leaving White Bluffs in the early 1940s Kincaid journeyed first up to Bellingham, where he worked in the business office of a lumber company, before going to Riverside, California. He also briefly came out of retirement to work as a bank cashier.<a title="">[10]</a> Kincaid died in 1970 at the age of 86. During his life, he was integral in White Bluffs’ slow growth as a small, but proud community, until its abrupt abandonment in 1943, when the US Government requisitioned the land around White Bluffs for use on the Manhattan Project. Bibliography Kincaid Black, Virginia. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614">http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614</a> Parker, Martha Berry. Tales Of Richland, White Bluffs and Hanford 1805-1943: Before The Atomic Reserve. Fairfield, Washington: Ye Galleon Press, 1979. “Prospect Bright For Enlargement Of Project” White Bluffs Spokesman. Dec. 29th, 1922. Vol 16, No. 22. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Willard John Kincaid” By M. Jay Haney. Hanford History Project. http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614 </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> White Bluffs spokesman. (White Bluffs, Wash.), 19 Sept. 1930. Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress. <<a href="https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1930-09-19/ed-1/seq-1/">https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1930-09-19/ed-1/seq-1/</a>> </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Martha Berry Parker, Tales of Richland, White Bluffs & Hanford 1805-1943: Before the Atomic Reserve (Fairfield, Washington:Ye Galleon Press, 1979), pp. </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> United States v. Priest Rapids Irr. Dist, 175 F.2d 524 (9th Cir. 1949). Casetext. </div> <div> <a title="">[6]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Kincaid Family History,” Hanford History Project, accessed May 1, 2023, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614. </div> <div> <a title="">[7]</a> The United States of America, appellant, v. Priest Rapids Irrigation District et. Al, respondents. No. 31547. En Banc. Supreme Court December 14, 1950. <a href="http://courts.mrsc.org/supreme/037wn2d/037wn2d0623.htm">http://courts.mrsc.org/supreme/037wn2d/037wn2d0623.htm</a> </div> <div> <a title="">[8]</a> White Bluffs spokesman. [vol. 16, no. 22] (White Bluffs, Wash.), 29 Dec. 1922. Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress. <<a href="https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1922-12-29/ed-1/seq-1/">https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093008/1922-12-29/ed-1/seq-1/</a>> </div> <div> <a title="">[9]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Kincaid Family History,” Hanford History Project, accessed May 1, 2023, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614. </div> <div> <a title="">[10]</a> Virginia Kincaid Black. “Kincaid Family History,” Hanford History Project, accessed May 1, 2023, http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/614. </div> </div> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Willard J. Kincaid Subject The topic of the resource A virtual guide to the communities displaced when the federal government inaugurated the Manhattan Project on the Hanford Site in 1943. Funded by the Benton County, Washington Historical Preservation Grant. Description An account of the resource Biography of Willard J. Kincaid, manager of the First Bank of White Bluffs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Written by Mark Schafer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at WSU Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8cb143e89916aa0afa68367bf91d52fd.JPG e123c8b06a200ffab7c43b07f6e8ec39 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9dd90cc6aac4bf4dd9bf4487c9e1bdc7.mp4 83fffa719d331b65d485ff782228aed4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John McFadden Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: All right, my name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John McFadden on September 20, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with John about his father’s experiences and his own experiences living at the towns, the town of Hanford, and then the Manhattan Project and afterward. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? John McFadden: Yes, my name is John McFadden. J-O-H-N. M-C-capital-F-A-D-D-E-N. Franklin: So, let’s start talking about your father. Tell me, where and when was he born? McFadden: My dad was born in 1911 in Ellensburg, Washington. Franklin: Oh, so kind of already a local guy? McFadden: Absolutely. He was--his father-in-law was the sheriff of Kittitas County, and original or very original member of Roslyn, back before Washington was a state. And he was--his father-in-law was actually the sheriff and a judge and a mayor, and all kinds of things in Roslyn. Then after it became a state, he got Roslyn involved in statehood as well as--then he ran as the sheriff of Kittitas County. And he became the sheriff of Kittitas County, and his daughter then married my grandfather, and my father was a product of grandfather and my grandmother. Franklin: Right. Do you remember the gentleman’s name who was the sheriff? McFadden: I certainly do. Isaac Brown. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: He came over from England and started as a miner and became a pretty, kind of a big shot in Roslyn, back in the day. Franklin: Yeah, the history of Roslyn is really, really quite an interesting history in Washington State. McFadden: Yes, yes. Franklin: So, your dad was born in Ellensburg. McFadden: Correct. Franklin: And how does he find his way down to the town of Hanford? McFadden: Oh! Well, okay. His father, my grandfather, was a senior engineer on the Northern Pacific Railroad. And so, he was--he went to work for the Northern Pacific in 1901, as I found out, after starting his career in Mexico. History had it that he went there and worked for Pancho Villa. I’ve since proven, no, that’s just another McFadden lore. Anyway, he came to Ellensburg with the Northern Pacific Railway, met and married my grandmother, and then was transferred to Pasco. So, he was a railroader in Pasco from about 1914 or so, till his death in 1942. Franklin: Wow. McFadden: So that’s how Dad got there. Franklin: Down to the Tri-Cities area. McFadden: Yes, yes, to Pasco. And Dad went, then, to Washington State College and graduated in 1936 with a degree in education. Went to work as a high school teacher, history teacher and coach and principal of Hover High School in the old town of Hover. Franklin: Oh! Yeah, kind of south of Finley. McFadden: Hover-Finley, yup. Franklin: We actually, I think a year ago, we interviewed a group of brothers in their 90s who grew up in Hover. Because, you know, you probably know, Hover was covered by the dam, by either McNary or Ice Harbor, it covered--oh, that’s really interesting, neat. McFadden: Yeah, correct. Franklin: Okay, so he’s down in Hover. McFadden: Right. And then in 1940, he had an opportunity to go to Hanford and he became what I have heard; I can’t--who knows?--the youngest superintendent in the state of Washington. I believe it was 26, if I remember correctly. So, he was then superintendent of schools at Hover from 1940 through ‘42 or ‘43. I’m-- Franklin: Sorry, Hover or Hanford? McFadden: Oh, Hanford. I’m sorry, yes, Hanford. Yeah, I get all the Hs mixed up. Franklin: No, its no problem. They’re pretty close geographically-- McFadden. And historically. None of them are there. So yeah that’s how he got there. Franklin: Did your father ever talk about life at Hanford and what it was like and what kind of town? McFadden: No. Not really. Mom talked every now and then. Franklin: Oh, yeah, sorry, let’s go back. When did your father marry your mother? McFadden: I believe that was 1937. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: She was a graduate of Central--no, that would be--yeah, Central Washington Normal Teachers College. Franklin: Teachers College, yup. And she’s from Ellensburg as well? McFadden: No. She’s from Walla Walla. Franklin: Oh, okay. McFadden: Yeah. And her father was the resident manager of Pacific Power and Light Company in Walla Walla. And Dad courted her on a friend’s motorcycle. Franklin: Oh, wow. McFadden: Which didn’t go over well with the country club head of Pacific Power and Light, you know. When a railroad engineer’s son would call on his daughter on a motorcycle. Franklin: Yeah, I bet not. McFadden: [LAUGHTER] Anyway, so-- Franklin: So, she moved, then, with him to Hover and then to Hanford. McFadden: Yes. Franklin: But so she expressed history or-- McFadden: Yes. Franklin: Can you kind of relate some of that to us? McFadden: She loved it there. Had lots of friends in the grange. Was not able to continue teaching because it would take away a teaching job from a man. And her job was to stay home and have kids, I guess. But, yeah, she loved the friendship of the community. Everybody was involved. I have--she saved--Dad saved very little--but she saved like programs and so on that they’d put on in the high school or the grange, and this group would sing, and Mrs. So-and-so would bring cookies and they’d--yeah, it was that kind of a community, White Bluffs and Hanford and so on. As I understand from Mom, yes. Yeah. Franklin: And--oh, shoot. I just lost my question. Keep going and hopefully my question will-- McFadden: Oh. So, yeah, and there of course was no doctor in Hanford. So, I was born in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, which was exactly two blocks from my father’s home that he grew up in Pasco. And I think the total--well, I still have the total bill. It was like $6.96 for the room and my--all of those things. So, I wasn’t actually technically born in the town of Hanford, but everybody in the town of Hanford thought I was, because there weren’t-- Franklin: Well, I mean--yeah. McFadden: Yeah. But they spoke a lot of the camaraderie, and I saw that in later years when I would find, after my dad moved on from that and all of those places, that there would be people who were working for his school district who had been residents in White Bluffs or at Hanford or, in other words, still a community connection, still. Franklin: Where was your parents’ house in the town of Hanford? Do you know? Have you ever bene out to see it, or do you know where it is on the map? McFadden: I have found it on the map, because of the grange insurance always put coordinates on the map. I have all of the grange information that my mother collected. So I actually had the coordinates, so I went into the old declassified maps of Hanford-White Bluffs and that entire reservation area, and was actually able to find my mother and father’s name and where it was. And then using the coordinates, came close. But you know, some of the coordinates are different today than they were at that time. Franklin: Sure. What were your mother and father’s names? McFadden: Oh. My father was Charles B. McFadden. He went by CB. And my mother was Eileen McFadden. Yeah. Franklin: And so then, the big defining event of Hanford, of the whole site, is the eviction. McFadden: Correct. Franklin: Did your parents--what do you know about the eviction on you and your parents? McFadden: Well, my father really never spoke about it. My mother told stories of, they were given like two weeks or three weeks of a notice and had to pack up and leave. That’s my childhood recollection of what she said. Dad--you know, it’s very interesting, he talked a lot about Hover and before. And he talked a lot about Hanford until. And it was like, we don’t talk about that, because--I just don’t know. Franklin: Sure. Do you think that it affected him? You know, emotionally, or--? McFadden: Yes. Yes, I--yes, I do. It was something he loved, being in that community. And he loved his job there. And he was working very hard to get the high school and the Hanford schools accredited. He wrote letters to Pearl Wanamaker, who was the superintendent of public instruction at the time. I have letters going from my father to her and then back from her to my father, saying, there isn’t enough population and student numbers to accredit your schools at this time. But keep trying. By the way, you’ve got a tremendous library and history program there. But it never came to fruition in my dad’s time, and I have a feeling that that bothered him till the end of his days. Franklin: What was so important about getting the schools accredited? Do you know? McFadden: I believe that it had to do with federal monies, that if your school was accredited, then you could get more matching funds from the state to improve programs and to do those. And I believe that was his driving force. Later on, that became an important part of the next phase of his life after that. Franklin: And when were you born? McFadden: I was born in 1942. Franklin; What day and-- McFadden: Well, I’m old. Okay, no. April the 11th, 1942. Yeah. Franklin: So you were pretty eleven--sorry, I’m writing the word eleven--the number eleven while I’m trying to talk. So, you were pretty young. McFadden: Yeah, absolutely. I have no personal memories at all of Hanford. I have pictures of where we lived at the time when we came back, and Dad worked for DuPont in the Hanford Project. Franklin: Yes, so let’s talk about that, because I’ve heard of employees--I’ve heard of former residents going back for DuPont, and I just--it’s hard to imagine how different that must’ve been for people that lived out there to watch that transformation, and to play a part in its transformation. McFadden: Yeah, I always had the feeling that Dad did that as his part of the war effort. You know, they were at war and for some medical reasons and also because of his size, he kept being turned down for service. Franklin: Too small? Too tall? McFadden: No, he was six-six and weighed about 240 pounds. Franklin; Oh, wow, that is tall. McFadden: So, they couldn’t fit him into a uniform. They said, oh, wow. Well. And it really bothered him. As a matter of fact, later on, when I went into the service, he pulled me aside and he said, I’m really proud. You’re doing something that I wasn’t able to do, son. So, I took it, that moment, that that bothered him big time. So, he went back to do, I think--I feel--his part for the defense of our country. Franklin: And what was his job at Hanford? McFadden: The best I can--well, I know for a fact, he was an investigator. Franklin: For DuPont. McFadden: For DuPont. He went to work for DuPont in, that would’ve been June of 1943. And he worked for them through September of 1944 when he went to Moses Lake, population 360, to become superintendent of schools there. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, before the Cold War, Moses Lake was a pretty sparsely-- McFadden: I do have memories of that. Franklin: Wow. I was just there at a conference last summer, and, yeah, it’s an interesting little spot. What was he investigating? People? Like a police investigator? McFadden: No, from what I’ve been able to ascertain, first off, he never talked about it. Ever. Sworn to secrecy. That’s, oh! Franklin: Right. Classified. McFadden: Oh! You don’t talk about that, son. But he’d tell me something that was really interesting. He said, well, I’ll just put it this way. Spies don’t work a 40-hour week, so neither does your father. [LAUGHTER] Okay? Okay? Franklin: That’s a really great quote. McFadden: Yeah. That’s what I was told. So I take that to mean he was checking on employees, investigating, are you talking on the side, do you---those kind of things. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where did your family live during this time where your father worked for DuPont? McFadden: We lived in Riverview Homes in Pasco. It was commonly known, the housing project. Franklin: Oh! That’s right. Before the camera started, you mentioned that your father was involved in trying to get the Pasco Naval training at the town of Hanford. McFadden: Correct. Franklin: Right? I’d like to hear more about that. McFadden: Oh! Well, I discovered letters--as I mentioned before, my mother never threw anything away. She used mucilage glue and glued everything to pages. Franklin: Well, as an archivist I love the first part of that, and hate the second part of that. McFadden: Yeah, well, you should try to tear some of them out. Franklin: We just don’t--yeah, it’s the worst stuff and it browns stuff. McFadden: Yeah. Franklin: Well, that’s how we learn. McFadden: Yeah, no, that’s true. And gotta love my mother, you know? Franklin: She was here. McFadden; Well, no, that’s true. Yes, he was involved at writing to the naval reserve in Seattle, to try to arrange to set up a pilot training program in and around Hanford and White Bluffs, because of the terrain and the masses of--there was a lot of land and very few population centers and so on. So I have correspondence back and forth between them, and the last one stating that, while there are other things involved--this is the one that I’d mentioned earlier. So he was always concerned about helping his high school students get careers and gainful employment whether during the war years or even till he passed on. Franklin: Right, I mean, that would bring a lot of jobs. Because you would not only have the jobs but also the economy service built around that. McFadden: And there might have been an ulterior motive to get more students into his high schools and schools so that they could get accredited. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sadly, the military had bigger designs. But Pasco, though, if memory serves me right, Pasco did become a major naval training center-- McFadden: They did. Franklin: --for the Pacific and one of the largest railroad depots in the United States. McFadden: That is correct. I have lots of great childhood memories going down to the roundhouse in Pasco and all those kinds of things with Grandpa and with--yeah, anyway. Franklin: What did your mother do during the war? McFadden: Ah, well, okay. She was a housewife. She also would substitute teach in the schools. She was very involved in the Eastern Star and the grange. Whatever there was to do, my mother had to, apparently, have a finger in it. Franklin: Really? McFadden: Yup. [female off-camera] She watched airplanes constantly. McFadden: Oh, yeah. She did, yes. Okay. Franklin: Oh, okay. Thank you. McFadden: Our little time in Acosta, she would take me down to the beach, and she was a spotter for the government. So she would sit in a spotting shack with me and look at airplanes. And she had--I still have somewhere; I can’t find them--all of the silhouettes of the airplanes that she would have to-- Franklin: Right, the Japanese bombers and-- McFadden: Correct, correct. Franklin: Wow. McFadden: So, she did that for--yeah. Franklin: Oh, that’s really cool. So, you lived in the Riverview Homes in Pasco until ‘44 when your family moved up to Moses Lake. McFadden: Moses Lake, yes. Franklin: So, what do you--I mean, you were really young, but what do you--what are your memories of wartime Pasco, if any? Because I imagine that must’ve been a bustling, bustling place. McFadden: Well, what I remember is that for the most part, my great-uncle John and my uncle Norm involved all of the little boy cousins at going to the roundhouse and talking to all the people coming in. I do remember trains coming into the Pasco station and going down with Mom in my little buggy. We’d watch, like, workers come in. I don’t know if that had anything to do with my dad’s job. I don’t know that. But they would bring them in by the trainload and then of course, bus them or whatever they did, to--yeah. But other than that, no. My memories really start in Moses Lake. Franklin: Sure, I mean, that makes sense, time-wise. McFadden: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: So how long did your family stay in Moses Lake? McFadden: We moved there in 1944 and we moved out in 1956. Franklin: Oh okay. McFadden: So Dad was superintendent of schools there from 1944 through 1956. Franklin: That, I imagine--was that a major period of change for Moses Lake? McFadden: Yes. Franklin: Because when was--the air base was constructed somewhere-- McFadden: Well, yeah, the air base was there, I know for a fact, in 1942. It stayed there--I don’t recall. We were gone when it was finally shut. But it was at first, Moses Lake Army Airfield. I do remember that. And then there was the Ephrata Army Airfield. Yeah, when we moved to Moses Lake, I know there were 360 people. And it had just been changed, the town’s name, from Nepal or Neppel to Moses Lake. And when we moved from Moses Lake in 1956, there were 12,900 people there. And that didn’t include the air base. Franklin: Wow. McFadden: So when we moved there, there was one school for the grade school and high school. When we left, there were all kinds of junior highs and new high schools and all kinds of things. Franklin: Must’ve been pretty exciting for your father to try to just keep things going. Or you know. During that period of growth like that. McFadden: Yes, yes, yes. And that’s also where I learned that the Japanese internment camps, during World War II? Not all Japanese went to internment camps. Franklin: Yeah. McFadden: There were many who came to Moses Lake, Quincy. So, I’m from Bainbridge Island and so forth. And they could work on the farms in the agriculture there. So yeah. Franklin: Yeah, actually, earlier this week, we interviewed the Yamauchi family, who is from Pasco. The Columbia River was the dividing line for Executive Order 9066. Part of the family was interned, but part of the family was allowed to stay in Pasco. Which is really something. Just an amazing history. McFadden: Yeah. I have found some correspondence between Japanese students that my father had in Moses Lake. Where they, after the war was over, they sent greetings to my father and my mother for all of the--for being congenial and friends and so on during that time. And I’m trying to contact those families and make sure they get the actual letters. Because I think that’s important. It’s a fond memory for me, but it’s personal for them. So, I’m in the process of trying to do that. Franklin: Oh, that’s really wonderful. How old were you when you first remember learning about Hanford and what your father had been a part of? McFadden: Well, what my father had been a part of, probably 60 years old. What my father was a part of. My mother’s tales started at early childhood. Yes, yeah. But what my father actually did--he always spoke highly of Hanford, Hanford High School, all of those parts. But he never said anything about DuPont and those times. Franklin: Well, how old were you when you found out about the Hanford Engineering Works and the atomic bomb--that your father was connected with the work to build the bomb? McFadden: Well, I think, by inference, I was probably in my 40s. Franklin: Oh, okay. McFadden: Okay? As far as knowing for real, my research that I’ve done lately. We always knew that Hanford--I mean, I always had the information that that’s what they were doing there, building that bomb, making those things. So I knew that he had to have something to do with it somehow. Because I had a feeling that I know he did work there, but I didn’t know anything about what he did. Never said a word. So, yeah. Franklin: Wow, wow. McFadden: I’m sure he contributed to the airplane. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so, because that came in June or July or ‘44. McFadden: Yes, yeah. Day’s Pay. Franklin: Yes. In fact, the son of the pilot of that is coming next week. McFadden: Oh, wow. Franklin: To town to take a tour and stuff like that. Yeah, it’s really quite a busy few weeks around here. McFadden: Well, yeah, yeah, that’s great. Franklin: It just seems always to happen, too, around the--because we’re getting close to the anniversary of the startup of B Reactor, and all of those things. McFadden: Yes, yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Did your father keep--did your family keep in touch with anybody from the old town fo Hanford? From the town itself, not the McFadden: Ah, yes. Yes, they did. And once again, here’s where you learn later in life. I graduated from a school called Connell High School, okay, which is-- Franklin: Right. McFadden: Yeah, just down the road. Franklin: miles-ish? McFadden: Yeah, from Pasco. Across from Ringgold and that way. Franklin: Still kind of in the area. McFadden: Yes. And what I learned is that Dad stayed in touch with several families from before those times. But I didn’t really understand that until I started doing research and, wow, this name is familiar. You’re kidding me! Franklin: Do you remember the names? McFadden: Some, yes. One is the Weber family. Another is the Heideman family. And then there was the Purser family, and they lived in Ringgold. Franlkin: Oh, right, across the-- McFadden: across the river, mm-hmm, yes. And see if there’s anymore. Well, then there was the Collie family. And I think you have an interview with one of the Collies. Franklin: Do we? McFadden: Mm-hmm, or maybe it’s in another site. But yeah, the Collies were early settlers around here as well. They had properties out in Hanford, they lived out there. Yeah. So. Franklin: Did your father ever go to the Hanford-White Bluffs reunion? McFadden: One. Franklin: One. McFadden: Yeah. Franklin: Which one? McFadden: Well--okay. It was the one, it had to have been held in the ‘70s sometime. AN they were allowed back on the reservation. Franklin: Was that the first time that that ever happened? McFadden: That was the first time they were ever back. Franklin: So I think that was the ‘68 reunion, because we have a lot of pictures from that reunion from Harry Anderson, who helped lead those with Annette Heriford. So, I think that’s ‘68, if I’m-- McFadden: No. That could absolutely be true. But I know Mom and Dad talked about that forever. Franklin: Really? McFadden: Oh, yeah. They said they got to go back on the reservation and-- Franklin: When we get back to my office, remind me to show you some photos of that, and maybe-- McFadden: Okay. Franklin: It’d be really neat, maybe if somehow, you know, your parents were in one of these photos. McFadden: Oh, that’d be great. Yeah. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: That’d be superb. Franklin: And I believe they had that reunion in Richland, and then, yeah, they bussed them out to the site. McFadden: yeah, yeah. Franklin: Great. Oh, that’s really--and so you, after Moses Lake, I’m inferring, but you moved to Connell. McFadden: Well, actually, we spent two years in Tacoma. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: And then we moved back to Connell, yes. Franklin: And then you ended up going to WSU. McFadden: Go Cougs! Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Go Cougs! McFadden: Yeah. Yeah, I did. Franklin: Yeah, it’s a wonderful place. McFadden: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: And then, did you ever come back to the area at all? The Tri-Cities, Hanford area? McFadden: To live, or--? Franklin: Yeah, to live or work. McFadden: Not really, no. No, no, no. I’ve come back many times. I’ve taken all the tours at Hanford and done that. But as a matter of fact, as I mentioned to you earlier, I went on one of the very first pre-Hanford tours. And actually got to stand and look at my father’s high school, the shell that’s left. And I don’t know if I should say this out loud, ubt they let me go ahead of the fence so that I could--you know. Franklin: Well, every now and then for special folks--like we had Dick Groves, the grandson of Leslie Groves here. McFadden: Oh, sure. Franklin: A couple months ago and they took him all over the place. Because he’s--you know. Because--you know. When you’re the grandson of Leslie Groves. McFadden: yeah, hey! When you have a park named after you--[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, exactly. That tends to open a few doors, literally. Well, that’s great. Yeah, it’s a wonderful tour. Where did your parents end up settling and staying? McFadden: Oh! Okay. They actually ended up in Brush Prairie, Washington. Franklin: Where is that? McFadden: That’s outside of Vancouver, Washington. Dad finished out his career in a town called Stevenson, Washington, which is up the Columbia Gorge. He retired there. And Mom went back to work as a special education teacher. And so she finished out her 30-year career. Then they retired and motorhomed and did the good life and Dad passed away in ‘82, and Mom passed on in ‘84. Franklin: Oh, wow. McFadden: So, yeah. But they ended up in Brush Prairie. Franklin: Well that’s really cool. So your father, at the Hanford Engineering Works for DuPont, from what you gather, is part of the security apparatus? McFadden: Correct. His official title that I can--is investigator. Yes. He was there on the reservation and we know where his office was. Franklin: Where was that? McFadden: Well, it was on a map. Franklin: Oh, okay. McFadden: So what I’ve done is I’ve taken the Google map that they have and you can still see all the outlines of things on that map. Franklin: yeah, are you talking about the construction camp? McFadden: Yes, mm-hmm, and the headquarters and that. So then I have another map that was done back in--that showed the actual what it was and give the, like the bus stops and number and that. So I’ve imposed the two over each other and it had the investigative offices, so I knew that’s where he must’ve worked out of. Franklin: Did your father ever bring you on Site? McFadden: No. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: Not that I--no. No. Franklin: And let’s see here. I think that’s most of my questions. What would you like--what do you think your parents would want future generations to know about living at Hanford before the project and kind of living through the Manhattan Project and the transformation of this area? McFadden: Well, I--wow, that’s a great question. I think that they would want young people today to know that they were citizens and people of courage who had huge convictions, not always agreeing, but had convictions that America was the best place in the world you could be or live and had given them and their families tremendous opportunities to flourish and to do what they chose to do with their lives. And that the Hanford Project was somewhat unfair to those citizens who had gone to this rock-scrabble land next to a river and made it into a beautiful orchard country and agriculture and built themselves their own irrigation system before that was really a big deal. And then they came in, and they were just told to leave, basically, and paid peanuts for what they had, their hard work, and their camaraderie and community and all that, had built these towns. And it was gone. And with really very little notice. And really very little consequence, except this is what is going to happen. And they’d like to know that it was part of a success and helped end a war. And that it was part of the patriotic duties that we’ve done to keep our country free. I think that’s what they’d like to have people remember, and that it was a hard-working group of people. It was a time when everybody came together. Yeah. So. Franklin: Great. That reminded me, when you talked about when people were removed, did your parents, do you know anything about the compensation that the government paid to your parents? McFadden: I do not Franklin: Okay. McFadden: No. Franklin: Okay. McFadden: Except Mom said it was paltry. Franklin: Yeah, that’s seems to be the prevailing--from what we’ve seen-- McFadden: But what “paltry” means, I don’t know. Franklin: What we’ve seen from the financial documents was that it was pretty wide-ranging, but some of the valuations were pretty low. McFadden: Yeah. Well, I got a kick out the history of the Bruggemans: We ain’t going. And so they had to keep sending--you will be gone. But, yeah, yeah. So. Franklin: Yeah, no, so many great stories to tell out there. Well, John, thank you so much. McFadden: Oh! It’s my pleasure and thank you for the opportunity to speak for my folks. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Tom, did you have any questions? Tom Hungate: No. Franklin: Okay, great, well, thanks. McFadden: Thank you! Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John McFadden Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Du Pont Company Pasco (Wash.) Description An account of the resource John McFadden's father, Charles, was the superintendent of the Hanford (Wash.) school district and later an investigator workig for the Du Pont Company. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/20/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c20fe3d0ef3378f837cbcac10d470e0.mp4 8ff7134b7fd9fbf590e1911a6bcad7c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shirley Stewart Location The location of the interview Royal City (Wash.) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Tom Hungate: And we’re rolling. Robert Franklin: We’re rolling. Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Shirley Stewart on January 17, 2020. The interview is being conducted at Shirley Stewart’s home outside Royal City. I will be talking with Shirley about her experiences growing up in what became the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Shirley Stewart: Shirley A. Stewart. S-H-I-R-L-E-Y. Adele, A-D-E-L-E. Stewart, S-T-E-W-A-R-T. Franklin: Great, thank you. And Shirley, what was your family name that-- Stewart: Oh, McGee. Franklin: McGee, right? And tell me where--tell me a bit about the ranch that you grew up in. 0:00:49 Stewart: Okay. My grandparents came into Cold Crick in 1908. And it was my dad’s stepdad and two brothers and Daddy and his sister. He was a blacksmith, and he used to ride his horse from Cold Crick clear to Hanford to shoe horses. This was in the early days. I believe that they did dryland wheat, some. But in 1916, maybe, they were looking for natural gas. And this guy came by and asked around if he’d be interested in drilling a well on his place. Grandpa thought about it a minute and he said, well, you know, I’m interested. But he said, I want to tell you this: if it’s water, it’s my well. If it’s natural gas, it’s yours. Well, the guy set up his thing to drill and he probably lasted a year or a little after and he finally ran out of funds. So then of course Grandpa went on with his life. Then in another year the guy came by and asked him the same thing. And he said, well, if it’s my well, it’s water, and if it’s gas, it’s yours. And I don’t know how deep that well was, but it had to be fairly deep. Well, they hit just a gusher of artesian well. That was the first--that was Brown’s well at Cold Crick. Franklin: And why was it called Brown’s well? Stewart: Well, because that was my grandpa’s—it was my dad’s stepdad, see? Franklin: I see. Okay, okay. 0:02:36 Stewart: And then they raised—they had a little orchard, as I remember them telling me, because I was too little then at first. But anyway, and then they had grain, hay. And but anyway, then my dad, at 18, he filled out to get a homestead—on the Homestead Act. Franklin: And your father’s name was Chester. 0:03:05 Stewart: Chester McGee, mm-hmm. And he had worked on that like maybe a year or two and then the war came along, and he went into the Navy then. Then when he came back out of the Navy, it was 125, I think, acres that he’d already approved on then. Well then Mom—my mother, meanwhile, my mother was a school teacher at Cold Crick, and that’s how Dad met her. So in 1919, they got married in December and they moved to White Bluffs for two years. He managed an orchard. And then he became a deputy sheriff of Benton County for eight years. Well, while he was there, he kept improving on this ground and getting it ready for when he was going to be through his thing. In 1928, a well driller got ahold of Dad and said would you be interested in drilling a well? And Dad said, well, yes, but I don’t have the funds to pay you. Oh, he said, that’s no big deal. Well, anyway, so Dad said, okay, I’ll give you 100 acres if you can get water for me. And we did. We had the biggest well. It was 1,150 feet deep. 90 pounds pressure and 100—let’s see if I’ve got—I figured I’d write this all down and then I’d tell ya. Franklin: We’ve heard of people drilling down several hundred feet, but I have not heard of anybody drilling down—like over 1,000 feet, I mean, that’s a really deep well. Stewart: Yeah, okay. They had 1,800 pounds pressure. Franklin: 1,800 pounds? Stewart: Mm-hmm, because that’s to irrigate over 300 acres with it. Franklin: Wow. 0:04:52 Stewart: Well, anyway, meanwhile, between the time Grandma’s well come in and ours, there was three other wells drilled at Cold Crick, but theirs were more shallow—they were shallower wells. And they had little farms there, too. I could name some of the people, but-- Franklin: Sure! Could you? Stewart: Rothrocks was one name. Meekers. M-E-E-K-E-R. Franklin: Okay, that name’s familiar. Stewart: And the other one was Schlosser. Raymond Martinez: Schlosser. Franklin: Is that like-- Stewart: S-C-H, wasn’t it? Martinez: Schlosser, Bob Schlosser. Stewart: Schlosser, uh-huh. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: Didn’t he move to Sunnyside? Martinez: Huh? Stewart: He moved to Sunnyside, didn’t he? Martinez: Yeah, he moved to Sunnyside. Franklin: Oh, and just for the record, that’s Raymond Martinez sitting off to the side who also grew up in Hanford-White Bluffs. That’s for our transcriptionist, who’s going to have to type all this out, just so she knows who you are, to put your name next to what you said. 0:05:55 Stewart: So then, after Dad’s time, it was eight years he was deputy sheriff. So they meanwhile were building—I think what they did is bought two old shacks and rebuilt them for our home. And then we moved there—I was about 18 months old, so it’d be 1931, we moved to the ranch then. Franklin: Okay. And you were how old in 19—so, sorry. When were you--when and where were you born? Stewart: I was 18 months old when they moved. Franklin: 18 months old. So you were born in White Bluffs, then? Stewart: I was born—actually, well, no, I was born in Kennewick. Franklin: And did your family live in Kennewick? Stewart: They lived in Kennewick when Dad was deputy sheriff. And I had a brother. My brother was seven years older then. Yeah. Franklin: So you were born in 1929? Stewart: 1929, I was born, mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Okay. And so where did you live in Kennewick? Stewart: I don’t know. Franklin: Do you remember? Or do you know where the family lived in Kennewick? 0:06:57 Stewart: They lived in a—I think, first they lived in Prosser for a while and then they moved to Kennewick. But I couldn’t tell you. I don’t know the streets. I think we went by there one time, and it was kind of just a little house that was there. I just don’t remember. Franklin: That’s fine, that’s fine. I was just curious. Because I live in downtown Kennewick, so I was just wondering-- Stewart: Well, it was kind of just at the edge of town. You know where the road goes on back up to Tri-Cities, I mean up to Hermiston. What is that? Martinez: Umatilla? Stewart: It was just off of that. Franklin: Yeah. Okay, interesting. Stewart: Two or three blocks. Franklin: Okay. So 1931, you moved up to Cold Creek. Stewart: To Cold Crick. Franklin: In kind of the house that your father had put together. 0:07:34 Stewart: Yeah, oh, yeah. But we did not have electricity. The power lines went right by, but they didn’t have transformers, see. But we never had electricity. Franklin: Not in the whole time? Stewart: Uh-uh. Never. Well, we had lots of water. [LAUGHTER] Power to the--yeah, no, brought it into the house and we had a bathroom. We had an outside poo-hoo for quite a long time and then we remodeled and Dad had an inside bathroom. But then we had a propane stove, like, I mean—with a firebox on one end to heat the water, because it was without electricity, you know? I can remember that. And then we had, Dad figured out some way of putting propane lights in through tubes on the ceiling. But it wasn’t very bright. You couldn’t read by it, because it was kind of just dim, you know. But it was fine. Franklin: And that’s to kind of see your way at night. Yeah, okay. Interesting. 0:08:40 Stewart: And let’s see, what do I need to tell you? My dad raised hay, mostly hay, and potatoes. And they did really good with those potatoes like in 1935 or ‘36, they bought a new John Deere tractor and a car, with my uncle’s dad and him, they farmed some together. The uncles, meanwhile, I was going to tell you, when we drilled our well, it was on the same strata as my grandmother’s, and it dried up. Franklin: Right, I had heard that. Stewart: Okay. And where the grape vineyards are now, at Cold Crick, that’s right where Grandma’s place was. Franklin: Right, the ones you can see kind of off to the—so that’s where the Browns-- Stewart: That’s where the Browns lived. Franklin: And you were closer to the road. Stewart: Yes, right. Well, we were right on-- Franklin: On what’s the road now. [TELEPHONE RINGING] Stewart: Hang on. Franklin: Here, we’ll just take a little pause. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: Okay. So that’s pretty interesting, in the middle, then, of the Depression, your parents were doing okay. 0:09:39 Stewart: Yes. And I can remember this, my brother was a teenager, you know, going with my uncles, they used to haul the potatoes up on the pass in the park and sell the spuds on the pass up there. Snoqualmie Pass. Franklin: Oh, wow, really? Stewart: And then they took them clear to Seattle. And I remember my brother going a time or two with Uncle Russ down to the shipping place on the bay. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Yeah. But they must’ve done pretty good, because they—you know, affording a new rig or two. We didn’t--I think Dad had one hired man part of the time. But with that artesian well, it was then the system that he had set up was really good. But we farmed with horses. We had a set of mules, Buster and Wally were their names. And then we had a set of heavy horses. Then they had one horse that we used to pull up, the derrick horse, we called him. And his name was Cato. That was my job when I was about six or seven, I got to go out and put up hay. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: And what happened when your grandparents’ well ran dry? I could imagine that-- Stewart: So they moved to Priest Rapids. Franklin: Okay. 0:11:12 Stewart: And they started a sheep ranch down there, the Browns did. I don’t remember too much, other than I knew they had a beautiful, great big barn, the people that had it before. And I think they had a few dairy cows, too, at one time. But they ended up in the sheep business. They put up hay at Priest Rapids, too. Franklin: Okay. And is that farm still there? Stewart: Oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no, no. They had to move also. Franklin: When—the dam? Stewart: Mm-hmm. When--no. They had to move--in fact, they let them finish—let me say this again. They let them lamb out their sheep that winter that everybody had to move out in ‘43. So Browns got to stay until January after the lambing. And then, meanwhile, they bought a place up at Vantage. Franklin: Wow, I see. 0:12:14 Stewart: That’s where they moved to. So, yeah. And we had about 100 head of ewes and I can remember Dad, they gave them to Browns. They herded them up there. And I don’t know how they did. They used to use that one tractor. They must’ve had to drive it. It was about 12 miles. Was it about that? Wasn’t it? About 12 miles to Priest Rapids from Cold Crick. They’d drive that tractor back and forth and use it. Isn’t that something? And then in 1937, I think, Dad bought another one. So they had two John Deeres. So they didn’t--by then have to--yeah. Franklin: What are some of your fondest memories growing up out there? 0:13:01 Stewart: [LAUGHTER] Oh, gosh. Well, you know what we did in the summertime a lot was pack a big lunch on Sunday and go down to the river and go swimming. And this was with the hired help and all of us kids and friends, and go swimming. And we’d always pack up wood and bring it home, because there was lots of wood, and that’s what we’d burn in the wintertime in the stove in the living rooms. Franklin: Right. Oh, yeah. Stewart: We always had wood stoves. Franklin: Kind of like driftwood that would come down? Stewart: Oh, and there was so much. Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Those were wonderful memories when we used to go swimming. In the wintertime, a few times, where we used to go--we’d go ice skating. But we did that right at home, because Dad had this—they could never turn the water completely off from the well in the wintertime. It always leaked around there. And then we’d skate down on kind of a canal-like thing. Those were precious. The other thing. Dad always loved to listen to the news, and all we had was a battery radio. Well, when he saw this—this is a funny—he saw where he could get a wind charger. So he got this first one that came out that charged the battery. He got up and put it on the point of the house and got it all ready. And, boy, it worked really good. It charged the batteries so fast. Well, one day, one time, we had a really bad windstorm and it blew so hard it shook the dishes out of the cupboard. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: So we had to disconnect the-- Franklin: The charger, yeah. Stewart: Yeah. And he had to put it on a pole. But, yeah, of course when the war started and everything, they listened to a lot of news, you know. But you only got to listen to that and Fibber McGee and Molly, and I think one other, and that was about all you got to listen to. But that was probably the length of the battery, I don’t know. Anyway. Yeah. Franklin: That’s really-- 0:15:11 Stewart: My family were really musical. My brother played the trumpet, and from the time he was, I don’t know, in grade school, I guess. I need to back up. We went to school at Vernita. Do you know where that was? Franklin: Yeah, down, right kind of where the bridge is today. Stewart: Down the hill. And actually I have a picture of the school. But anyway, that’s where I went. And then they went on down to White Bluffs to high school. And I went, let’s see, three-- Franklin: How far was that? Stewart: Six miles. Franklin: And how did you get there each day? Stewart: Well, they had a school bus. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: At one time, there was several kids. I don’t remember just how many, probably four or five of us went from there down to Vernita to this school. Well, on the first three grades, the first year, there was about eight or ten of us, one teacher. The next year, some of the kids had left and they’d gone to high school or moved. So there was like five, I think. The next year, there was two boys and I in the whole school the whole year, in the third grade. [LAUGHTER] That was a disaster! Anyway, then for two years, we went with the high school kids to White Bluffs on the bus. And the old—it was like wooden sides, and the dust would just boil in. Do you remember that, Raymond? Oh! It was awful. Franklin: It would shake—was it-- Stewart: Oh, yeah, it would shake, you know? Franklin: Was it basically just kind of like a converted truck? Stewart: No. It was solid sides with windows. Franklin: Oh, okay. Stewart: But there was—the dust just would—anyway, I went two years to White Bluffs. And then two more years, more kids started moving in because of the Midway substation that Bonneville was building. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Stewart: And so there was more kids. Well then the eighth grade, they took the seventh and eighth grade with the high school kids clear to Hanford that last year. And that was 1943 when I graduated eighth. They closed it the fifth of May. I can remember that. Franklin: Wow. Yeah. Oh, speaking of that, I wanted to ask, what were your memories of the eviction or the evacuation, getting, maybe getting the notice, what do you remember about that time? 0:17:54 Stewart: Oh, it was a real shock. A real shock. But I want to tell you one thing. We didn’t do very good, but Dad was very patriotic. Because he’d been in World War I, and he knew we had to do something. They had to do something. I can remember that. But, yeah, it was really hard. We had a really beautiful place, and they did really well with what we had. Yeah, Dad didn’t have—he wasn’t—it bothered him—he knew it had to be done. Some people just kept that hatred in them all their years. They never got over it. Franklin: No, they didn’t. No, we’ve interviewed some people who were still-- Stewart: Bitter. Franklin: --angry at DuPont all these years later Stewart: Well, Dad went to work—when he couldn’t irrigate, he still grazed the sheep on it, didn’t they? Do you remember that, Raymond? Martinez: What’s that? Stewart: Oh, Dad grazing the sheep on our hayfields. Do you remember that? Martinez: No. Stewart: Anyway, but he was a Pinkerton guard for the Bonneville power. Franklin: Oh, really? 0:19:04 Stewart: And we got to stay at Cold Crick till October. However, they took the high school kids to Sunnyside that year, and I started high school in Sunnyside for—I was only there a couple months, I think. But that was always—and dirt, talk about dust. Franklin: Wow, yeah, that is a ways. Stewart: And it was just in on all—no grass, it was all gravel. Franklin: Right, jeez. So you said you got to stay until October. That was October 1943? Stewart: Mm-hmm. Franklin: You got--oh, wow. Yeah, that’s pretty-- Stewart: And he was sent to Spokane to two different substations up there he was over. And then we moved to Spokane then and bought a little place up there. And I graduated from high school, Rodgers. And I went two-and-a-half years to WSU then. Franklin: Okay, okay. Stewart: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Tell me a little more about Cold Creek-- Stewart: Cold Crick. Franklin: Cold Crick, sorry. What kind of community was it? Did it have services, or was it just-- Stewart: No. Franklin: --kind of a gathering of-- Stewart: No, no. Franklin: --people? 0:020:08 Stewart: There was a little gas station at the bottom of the hill before you would cross the crick there. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: But, no there wasn’t any services, no grocery store. I might mention this: we used to be--maybe you have it down in your thing--used to be a stage come clear from Kennewick. They would bring the mail up. I think to Hanford, White Bluffs and all up to us. And then if we needed something, he’d always stop at the Reiersons’ grocery store at White Bluffs. If we needed something, we could call down there, and they’d bring it up with the mail and everything. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Yeah. and the people they’d tell you if they had to go from Kennewick to White Bluffs, they would come on the stage. Franklin: Wow, okay. Stewart: I just wondered if you’d ever heard about that. Franklin: No, I haven’t. That’s really interesting. You mentioned you did not have electricity, but did you have phone? Stewart: Yes, we had phones. It was--yeah. Franklin: Okay, interesting. Stewart: You rang two shorts or two longs. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Yeah, if your phone rang, everybody who lifted up could hear what you were saying. [LAUGHTER] Yes. Franklin: So you had traveled to White Bluffs for school. Did you also travel there to go to do all your shopping as well? 0:21:27 Stewart: Well, what shopping we did. We had always--my folks always raised a big garden. We had a lot of garden. We had a small orchard of our own. We raised fruit trees. And the one I hated the worst was the pie cherries. My brother and I always had to pick those pie cherries. We just picked the cherries right off the tree, leave the seeds on the tree. [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah. And Mom did a lot of canning. My folks canned. And Dad butchered; he was a good butcher. And so your basic things that you needed were like sugar and flour and those type of things. So you didn’t go to the grocery store very often. Franklin: Right, right. But to get like clothes and other-- Stewart: Well, yeah. We would go to Yakima about twice a year. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: And probably--you know, I’m trying to remember whether you went to--maybe he went to Sunnyside for parts. I think Dad did; we did go there some too. But, yeah, we would get--and then we used to use Sears and Roebuck. We ordered-- Franklin: Oh, right. What was social life like-- Stewart: Oh, my gosh. Franklin: --for you for your parents? Did you go to White Bluffs or Hanford often to go to movies? 0:22:45 Stewart: Well, we didn’t need to; we had such a community. Wonderful community. I have pictures of--we had a woman’s group. My God, I got whole lots of pictures of them. And it was called a Priest Rapids Ladies’—I can’t think of the ladies’ club. But it went clear from up Priest Rapids clear almost down to Riverland. Down to Allard. Allard’s. Franklin: To the Bruggemanns’ and then the Allards’. Stewart: Uh-huh. Yeah. Mr. Bruggemann’s picture’s in here. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Yeah, they had--we had a real good--and my dad was on the school board. He always helped with that. We had a small school. And something that I always have remembered, you know, in those days, you didn’t have oranges or things like that. And the big thing every year, we always had a play at Christmastime for the little school, and we always had Christmas baskets. And they always got oranges, those kids could hardly wait to get that orange. And now the kids don’t think a thing about--you know? Franklin: No, no. Stewart: And a little bit of candy, a candy cane, and I don’t remember. An apple, I suppose we had apples in them. I don’t remember that part. But I do remember they used to go down along the river and get a juniper for Christmas trees for the school. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] 0:24:06 Stewart: The other thing I remember, and it was always in my mind--I was just a little girl. They had candles on those trees. Burning candles. At the school! Franklin: Wow. That sounds like a serious fire hazard. Stewart: Yeah, but now, my God, it would--[LAUGHTER] This was the school. Franklin: That’s really cool. And this was where? Stewart: That was Vernita. Franklin: Oh, Vernita School. Stewart: I have the only picture of it. Franklin: Would we be able to-- Stewart: Yes! Franklin: --take some of these and scan them and send them back to you? Stewart: Yes. Yes, you can. Franklin: Oh, that’d be wonderful. Stewart: Go through these things, because I’ve got some really good ones. Franklin: No, it sounds like you have some great photos there. 0:24:40 Stewart: But anyway, I can remember—but we always had school plays. Even if there was like only four of us kids in the school. That was always the big thing, in the fall we’d have--I don’t remember anything at Thanksgiving. I think we used to have—we had a potluck. We had a lot of potlucks. The ladies’ club would have potlucks. And they used to have social dancing. My aunt played the piano. My two uncles, one played the saxophone and the other clarinet. And my brother played the trumpet. And my dad played the fiddle, and my mother and I both played the piano. So, that would be kind of our social thing, like on Sunday afternoons. We’d get to my grandparents’, up there, and play music. That was--yeah. Franklin: So, I wanted to ask you about your family for a minute. So your dad’s name is Chester. What was your mom’s name? Stewart: Clida. Ratcliffe was her last name. Franklin: Okay. Clida Ratcliffe. Stewart: Clida, mm-hmm. Franklin: Clida Ratcliffe, but McGee, I guess-- Stewart: Yeah. And Dale McGee. Franklin: Dale, your older brother. Stewart: I just have the one brother. Franklin: Just the one brother. Stewart: Yeah, and seven years older than me. Franklin: And so Yvonne is your sister-in-law. Stewart: Sister-in-law, mm-hmm. Franklin: And then your dad had brothers and sisters. You said you had an aunt and uncle? Stewart: Well, yeah. He had a full sister, Cassie, who was two years older than Dad. Franklin: And where did she live? 0:26:00 Stewart: She lived with her--well, for years she lived in California. Because she worked in a bank, I think. And then I don’t remember just when she came back to Cold Crick. Or maybe she went to Cold Crick first and then down there. I think that may be that. Because she used to do go down and work in the packing house with the—in fact, her picture’s in one of these, with those ladies that-- Franklin: Oh, really?! Stewart: Yes. Franklin: Oh! Right on. Stewart: I’m sure that’s her. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: But she was a bookkeeper. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: Also. So she was single for a long time. In fact, I met my—this should go on later. Well, anyway, how I met my husband. I went down and helped her cook for the lambing crew at Vantage. And my husband-to-be was working for them at the time. Franklin: Aw. Stewart: And she had never been married, and we dated with another fellow, and she ended up marrying him. She was in her 40s--50s. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Isn’t that interesting? Franklin: That is interesting. Stewart: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Huh. And then you also mentioned an uncle, too. 0:27:15 Stewart: Two uncles. Russ and Wynn. Brown. They were just little ones when they moved to Cold Crick, just tiny boys. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: And they lived with the Browns, then. Stewart: Yes, they did. Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Stewart: And then, I think there’s pictures of them. I ought to show you. Oh, man. Martinez: They’re in the book. Stewart: They’re in this. Martinez: They’re dressed for winter in that book. Stewart: This one. Martinez: Yeah. Stewart: I’ll [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Really? So most of the photos for that book we got from the Edmund Anderson family. Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: Harry Anderson, as part of what they collected for the Hanford-White Bluffs Association. Stewart: Yeah, it’s the same-- Franklin: But we never--didn’t get any-- Stewart: Yeah, Wynn and Russ are in this picture. Franklin: Oh, really? Oh, that—okay! Stewart: Uh-huh. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Wynn and Russ Brown. Franklin: Oh, that’s really neat. Stewart: And then they were in the White Bluffs Band. My uncles were in that band. My brother was in the band. They used to go--there actually was the community, not just the high school, that one band. I’ve got pictures of that, too. Franklin: See, this is crazy, because you know, we got all this, but we never got this information as to who these people were. Because we just got these pictures and we never got the people to tell us who was in the pictures. Stewart: Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Franklin: Oh, yeah, that’s really neat. That’s really cool. Stewart: Yeah, Wynn and Russ were both in this picture. Franklin: Wow, that’s neat. That’s good to know. Stewart: So I always saved that. I had that for a long time. Franklin: Oh, that’s really good to know. Stewart: Anyway, let’s see what else I was going to tell you. Oh, I need that. Whatever you want to ask me. I don’t think I’ll remember. Franklin: Do you remember when--you mentioned Midway. Stewart: Yes, I do. Franklin: Do you remember around when that came into the area? 0:29:00 Stewart: Yes. About 19--well, it was--they started it in about ‘41. Because I remember my brother went one year to WSU, he graduated in 1940. So that fall he went to a--the reason I remember, the next--he worked at the next summer. It was so hot. It was 116 or 117. Oh, it was hot! Down in those—I can remember him getting so sick. Franklin: Oh, that sounds awful. Stewart: Oh, it was really hot. Franklin: That sounds really--especially before-- Stewart: And no air conditioning. Franklin: No, of course not. Stewart: You didn’t have that. We just went swimming a lot. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Were there a lot of families that came with the substation, or was it--did it-- 0:29:42 Stewart: Well, I can remember of only--yeah, there was a few. And then they built houses for them later, see? The one family had three girls, and they kind of helped getting our school back going. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Stewart: Yeah, and the one girl was in my class. I don’t remember a whole—there was some older children that went on to White Bluffs, I remember that. But mostly there were just men that started working there and then didn’t bring the family. Well, there wasn’t any place for them to live. Franklin: Right. Was that pretty exciting to have the dams come up and the electricity come through the—did you maybe start to get the sense that things were going to change a bit? Stewart: Well, I think I did. I think I did. But it was so many changes so fast. And I remember, when we moved to Spokane, we probably only had—we lived in that same place. We probably only had one old truck, and probably made two trips. One with this piano, of course. Franklin: Of course. Stewart: But what I’m saying is now, look at everything everybody has. If I moved out of here--[LAUGHTER] Oh, God. You know, people don’t think about that. Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Stewart: And I’ve lived in this house 66 years, you guys. Franklin: Wow. Wow. Stewart: So I’m one of the old-timers here. Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s really cool. So, oh, shoot. What was I going to--what was my next question? Oh! So, there were a lot of social life in Cold Creek. Stewart: Yes. Franklin: But you did go to White Bluffs for-- 0:31:16 Stewart: Yes, we did, and Dad was very active in the American Legion, and they used to have like dances and things. And then when my brother was in high school, of course we went to the basketball games. They’d have basketball and softball. Franklin: Do you remember when the schools burned down? Stewart: Yes, I do-- Franklin: The White Bluffs-- Stewart: --remember that day. I was taking piano lessons. I was in fourth grade. And we had just started—Mom had come and got me, and we were just headed back out to go home and we saw the fire. We saw it. Yeah. I remember that real plain. Franklin: Okay. Were you talking--White Bluffs or-- Stewart: The White Bluffs High School. Franklin: --because I know both schools burned down at one point or another and then were rebuilt. But it was White Bluffs is the one that you remember? Stewart: White Bluffs, and they didn’t rebuild. No, that was just right before it was-- Franklin: Right, right. We have some photos of that, yeah. A big blaze. Okay. And what about for church? Where did you go-- 0:32:17 Stewart: Well, we really didn’t go--we were too far. I would go with a friend or so. But we didn’t have any churches at Cold Crick or Vernita. There wasn’t anything. They didn’t have anything. Franklin: And Vernita at that time was still the ferry. Stewart: They had a cable ferry, and if you don’t think that wasn’t scary--that would drift across—I remember going across—my dad was so entrenched on building the Grand Coulee Dam. He was really interested in it. And Mom’s sister was running a motel in Coulee City. So about once a year, we’d make a trip up to Grand Coulee. Which was a really quite a trip in those days. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Stewart: And when you went across that ferry, it would drift way down and go up, and it was real sandy. We always had a shovel. We always had extra water and gas with us, and probably usually got stuck at least once. Well, we’d go up as far as Coulee City and stay all night with my aunt at the motel. And then the next day we’d make the trip clear in to see the dam and come back. I can remember where the water is now on Biggs Lake, all the farms that were between there. And I remember Dad saying, these people are going to have to move, and that’s just kind of like we were when we were little. I can remember that, just as plain. I wasn’t that old, but anyway. Yeah, I can remember that. Franklin: Right. That’s kind of ironic, isn’t it? You know, like going up and kind of—and not thinking that would-- Stewart: It could happen to you. Franklin: Yeah. Stewart: Yeah. But I can remember that just as plain, yeah. Franklin: That’s really neat. Were there any—I know you were just a kid for a lot of the time as you lived there, but were there any like bad or hard times when you were living there? Any memories that stick to you in that vein? 0:34:09 Stewart: You know, I don’t really remember because I think we were fairly well--you know, Dad didn’t have to pay for any water. And electricity. And he had cows—you had horses, so you didn’t have to buy gas. You think—we probably were pretty well sufficient. My mother was really a good cook, too. We usually had hired help. She had a gas lawnmower—I mean, a gas washer, and we washed out in the yard and then hung everything up. That was just the way you did it in those days. And she canned a lot, and we had a cellar. And Dad had it all fixed up with shelves for the fruit, you know. And like, for your potatoes—well, we ended up building a potato shed, Dad did, and sorted our own spuds in the later years there. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Uh-huh. Franklin: Do you remember—did you know the Bruggemann family at all? Stewart: I did. I did. They weren’t very—they really weren’t very social. She was more so than him. Franklin: Oh, Paul was pretty-- Stewart: Yeah. I can remember them. And the kids were just little. Franklin: Right. Yes, they were, yeah. They were three and five I think when the eviction happened. And what about Allard? Did you know Sam Allard? Stewart: I don’t remember him, but I remember the name. But I knew people that lived on there, the Austins. And I-- Franklin: Right, Levi Austin. 0:35:43 Stewart: Levi Austin and--oh, shoot, what was their name? I can kind of remember those other people. At Vernita, there was about five orchards. Five or six soft fruit orchards. They weren’t very big. Because I think part of them, just irrigated from a well, like a pump. Because they had electricity at Vernita. And then part of them pumped it out of the river, I think. I think Richmond—Richmond was one name, and they had the ferry. Richmonds was their name, Tom Richmond. Franklin: Okay. Did you ever go all the way down to Richland at all or to the Tri-Cities? Stewart: Yes, we did, because Dad and Mom still had friends that lived down there. We used to go down and visit them. Yes, we did. But I don’t remember much. There wasn’t much at Richland. White Bluffs was bigger than Richland. Franklin: Right, right. I wanted to ask you about—so you were—the eviction happens and eventually you leave in October and you moved up to-- Stewart: Spokane. Franklin: Spokane. When did you start going to the reunions? 0:37:00 Stewart: You know, they’ve never mentioned anything in these books about it, but right after the war, they had picnics at Prosser. Franklin: In Prosser, yeah. Stewart: Yes. And we went to several of those. So my old friends that I went to school with, I can remember that. Franklin: And how long did you go to those for? Do you remember, how many years? Stewart: Well, it seemed like only a couple of years, and then of course I went off to college and I didn’t—we didn’t go—I don’t remember how long they had the ones at Prosser. Not very long, I don’t think. Franklin: No, yeah, we didn’t include much about it in the book, because we didn’t—the information we had about them really comes from 1968 on when they started meeting in Richland. Stewart: Yeah. And then we used to go to all those. We went to them all. Franklin: You went to all of those? Stewart: Yeah, most of them, yeah. Franklin: Were you able—have you been able to go back to the homestead since the Hanford Site-- 0:27:54 Stewart: Yeah, there’s nothing there. [LAUGHTER] Yes, I have! [LAUGHTER] But, yeah, our old spud shed was the only thing that was left there. There was nothing, you know. You knew they took our water and piped it 18 miles to the first reactor. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard that, yeah. Stewart: That was our well. Franklin: Yeah, that’s amazing. I mean, it was a gusher. Stewart: Ah, I’ll just show you a picture. Well, whenever you want. Go ahead. Franklin: Sure. Stewart: Go ahead and ask me. Yeah, we did, we used to have lots of social things, you know, like potlucks in the summertime. At least once or twice at different people’s places. Yeah, we never did--you know, we weren’t lacking for social things. Franklin: Oh, sure. Stewart: Raymond, what were you going to say? Martinez: Can I say something off the record? Franklin: Sure. Yeah, let’s take a little pause. Hungate: Sure. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: So you sorted-- Stewart: Apricots-- Franklin: There was a packing shed down by the-- Stewart: At Riverland, yeah. Martinez: When you go down the hill, before you get to the bridge, there’s kind of a dip, the railroad went through there. Stewart: It’s right there. Martinez: You can see where the railroad track was. Stewart: Right there, right there. Martinez: There was a packing shed right there on the railroad track. And then the livestock corral was right next to it where they’d load the sheep to go to Montana or wherever. Stewart: Cattle. Oh, yeah. Franklin: So, and Riverlands was kind of the stop for Bruggemann’s, because Bruggemann’s was the Riverlands Ranch. Martinez: Yeah. Franklin: Right? Is that correct? Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: okay. Martinez: The packing warehouse is right practically on the Bruggemann ranch. Stewart: Yeah, practically on there. Right there. Franklin: And you worked there when you were 13? Stewart: 13 years old. Right when the war started. Martinez: Everybody worked there. Stewart: Everybody worked there! Franklin: Everybody worked there. [LAUGHTER] Martinez: No child labor laws then! Stewart: No, there sure wasn’t! Franklin: You know, I grew up on a farm as well, and there’s always-- Stewart: Did you? Franklin: Yes. Stewart: Where was that at? Franklin: In Alaska. Stewart: Oh, my gosh. Franklin: Yeah, a farm/nursery. Martinez: Well, Salvini was a pretty noted family down there. Stewart: Yes, they were. I remember them. Franklin: Salvini, okay. Stewart: Salvini. I don’t know if it was a-- Martinez: They moved to Sunnyside. Stewart: Oh, did they? Martinez: Yeah. Stewart: I knew the Killian girls really well because Maria and Sylvia were in my class. Martinez: You got that picture with the flume and the sheep and the horses in your book to show them? Two horses and all the-- Stewart: Yeah. Here’s the picture of the well in our can right there. In fact, you can have one of those, because that’s… Here’s the band. [LAUGHTER] Okay, which one are you talking about? Franklin: Oh, yeah, this, yes, I’ve seen this. Martinez: The one with the horses and the hay wagon and the--where the sheep are right behind him. Stewart: Can you see that? Martinez: It was one of your team of horses they used in the wintertime. Franklin: Oh, wow. Martinez: I know you had it; you had it last time I was here. Franklin: Tom, did you have any questions? Anything that came to your mind that you wanted to ask? Martinez: They built a-- 0:40:56 Hungate: When they were asked to move. Why? Franklin: Why--? Martinez: They built that wooden flume. Hungate: What did they speculate-- Franklin: Oh! Hungate: --was the reason they had to move? Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, good. Hungate: Something for the war, but what? Because you can’t help but think, what is it? Martinez: They built a wooden flume for the well that went about three miles over toward the bluff. Hungate: And the mail came from Kennewick. Stewart: Right. Hungate: But you didn’t go shopping there-- Stewart: Not much. Hungate: You went to Yakima. Stewart: Well, not very much. We didn’t hardly go there very much. Hungate: But you said a couple times. Stewart: Yeah. Hungate: I mean, you didn’t go to the Tri-City area-- Stewart: Not very often; only to visit. Hungate: And that would seem to be closer? Stewart: Well, it probably was. Hungate: Maybe about halfway. Stewart: But my folks had friends in Kennewick; we’d go visit. That’s the only thing I can remember. Franklin: Yeah. Hungate: Yeah. 0:41:47 Stewart: Now, here’s something you might be interested in. This was in 1917, the first--my grandfather and another fellow dug a well. And it was only good probably part of the year when the water was running it. See what it was—yeah, isn’t that interesting? Franklin: I like this picture of the well and the guy standing next to it. Hungate: Oh, god. Franklin: That’s pretty neat. Wow. This one with the guy standing next to it. Stewart: Oh, yeah. Hungate: It’s a geyser! Franklin: Yeah, it’s a real gusher. Stewart: Now, this is my grand--is that the same? That isn’t the same one. Hungate: No. Franklin: No, it’s not. Stewart: Okay. This is my grandmother’s well. Look at that. Franklin: The Brown well. Oh, yeah, wow. Stewart: And when they hit that, they didn’t know how to cap it. Martinez: Cap it, yeah. Stewart: Oh, it ran on down; it just went way down in the crick, and they had a heck of a time trying to—yeah. Franklin: Phew, it’s just so—I mean, seeing this well in the treeless--you know. Stewart: Isn’t that something? Franklin: Yeah, it really is something. Stewart: Now here’s another picture of the White Bluffs band. My brother was in it. Franklin: Oh, wow. Hungate: Oh, wow. Franklin: Oh, yeah, there’s that--your brother in Pullman. That thing is still--that’s right outside of the Murrow Building. It’s right outside--it’s right by the old women’s dorm. I know right where this is. Because I’ve been there, like, many times. Hungate: Oh, the memorial? Franklin: Yeah, the little-- Hungate: The veterans’ memorial ting? Franklin: Yes, that’s where it is now. It didn’t always be that, but there it is on the campus. Smart-looking guy. Stewart: Where did you live in Pullman? Franklin: Oh, so I did my master’s in Pullman. Stewart: Oh, you did? Franklin: So I lived in Pullman, and then Tom lived in Pullman for quite a while. Stewart: Okay. Franklin: Yeah. And you said you went to school-- 0:43:36 Stewart: I went to Pullman, yeah. The first year I went, it was--I graduated in ‘47, that fall, and they had just built these dorms for the women and then there was 400 girls, freshman girls and there was 1300 boys. That’s when everyone came home. It was Quonset huts or whatever it is they were. Franklin: Yes. Stewart: You remember that? Well, you probably don’t remember that. Franklin: I did a lot of university history, and I remember the photos, because after the war, they struggled to find places to put all these new students that they had given the GI Bill. Stewart: Well, then the next two years, I was up on the campus at Davis Hall. Up on the-- Hungate: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yup. Still there. Hungate: Still there. Franklin: Still there. Stewart: I’m sure it is! [LAUGHTER] I didn’t graduate—I didn’t finish, but I got to go for two-and-a-half years. Martinez: Shirley, Shirley, let me see your photos. I’ll find the picture. Franklin: So, Shirley, I had a couple more questions. Stewart: Here. Martinez: Just a minute. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: I don’t know where I put it. Franklin: Oh, I’m sure we have it. When you got the notice to move, I imagine that it must’ve been shocking. Stewart: Terrible shock. Franklin: But I also imagine people must’ve been speculating why. You know, why would they move all these--so do you remember anything about that time? 0:45:00 Stewart: Well, I remember, it was just such a shock, I remember that. And I can remember my mom said, Chester, what are we going to do? I can remember Mama saying that. That was the—what were we gonna do? But Dad never got--I said, and my brother mentions in his book that he was so—he felt that we needed to do something. Franklin: Right, he was very patriotic. Stewart: Very, very, very. Franklin: Did people--did you have-- Stewart: Some of them weren’t. Franklin: Did you ever wonder kind of what was going to happen to all this farmland? Stewart: Oh, yeah! Franklin: Why would the government take it? Stewart: How can they take it with all that fruit hanging on the trees? Franklin: Right. 0:45:45 Stewart: I don’t remember very much about Vernita, those people saying much. I don’t remember. And I don’t think Dad let us hear anybody’s really having a big fit over anything. We knew some of them did, though. I can remember a family or two. Franklin: Do you remember when you found out what—why it was taken? Do you remember when you found out about the dropping of the bomb and that-- Stewart: Oh. We felt-- Franklin: --had happened now at Hanford. Stewart: Then we felt like we had done the right thing. To be real honest with you. That’s the way Dad talked. And whatever he gave up, he felt that it saved all of us. That’s the way my family were. Franklin: Sure. I imagine that must’ve been-- Stewart: And of course my brother was in the service, you know? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. I imagine that must’ve been a big shock, too, right? Stewart: Oh, it was! Franklin: That that had happened in what had been your home. 0:46:41 Stewart: Yeah. And to think of leaving it. That was hard, yeah. But anyway, with Dad—and then after the war, of course, Dad didn’t—they didn’t need the guards anymore. So he decided—he knew he wanted to locate back in the Basin. But he didn’t want to start another farm, because that was--so he suited an old pickup and sold auto parts. There were jobbers in those days. So he got an idea of maybe he could find a place that he’d like to take over. And that’s what he did. He found a place in Stratford, and it was a little grocery store and service station. And he just loved that. He did. It was kind of a, everybody would come in and have coffee in the morning and that type of thing. They were putting in the Long Lake Dam and the canals just when Dad first bought that. So he had all these workers in there for a number of years, which worked really good—he did really well. Franklin: Where was this again? Stewart: Stratford. Out of Moses Lake, straight north from Moses Lake. There’s Stratford Road that goes just out of Soap Lake. You know where Soap Lake is? Franklin: Kind of. I think you probably know that area a lot better, Tom. Stewart: In Ephrata. Hungate: Near Ephrata. Stewart: Ephrata. Franklin: Tom was based in Wenatchee for a long time. Stewart: Yeah, so Ephrata, yeah. Franklin: Okay, interesting. So is that where he and your mom settled, out there? Stewart: Yeah. That’s where we settled, and they had it for about 20 years. My mother passed away--he was there about five or six years after Mom died. Anyway, yeah. And he really—and then later, there was a lot of hunting and fishing, so then he sold a lot of fishing and shells and stuff, you know, and lunch, mostly lunch-type things. So that worked really good for him, people hunting and they’d come in there. Franklin: Yeah. And your brother was in the service in the war. Stewart: Yes. Franklin: When did leave for the war? And was he in the service when you were evicted? Stewart: No. Franklin: Okay. 0:49:00 Stewart: No. He was, I think--let’s see--graduated--’40. He graduated in 1940. He was in college. Franklin: Oh, okay, so he was in Pullman. Stewart: Let me see. He was at Pullman. Franklin: How did he take the news--how did he-- Stewart: Well-- Franklin: When you got the notice, how did he-- Stewart: I just don’t remember. I don’t’ remember. But I do know that then he got in the B12 training his second year at WSU. And then that summer he was sent back east to finish getting his—in the Navy. And he was a lieutenant. Franklin: And what did he do after the war? Now that he kind of couldn’t come back. Stewart: Oh. He came back to Pullman and finished and got his degree in agronomy. Franklin: Okay, that’s right, you mentioned that. 0:49:45 Stewart: And he worked about three or four years in Colfax. They lived in Colfax. And then he got a really good job out of Vancouver, and he was there for a number of years, eleven years I think. And then he was sent to Silverton, Oregon, and then finally ended up the head guy out of Salem, Oregon, the head guy, yeah. He did that all those years. Franklin: And then you eventually came here to where we are. You said you’ve been here 66 years. Stewart: Yeah, uh-huh. [LAUGHTER] Yeah! Yeah. My husband was a cowboy. Franklin: Yeah? Stewart: And my kids are cowboys. [LAUGHTER] I have one grandson that was in the national finals twice. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Yeah, and he’s team roper. That was in ‘99. And then 2000--let’s see, ’98 and ‘99 and 2000 he went to the national finals in team roping. Well, then after that, he got hurt. [VIDEO FILE CORRUPTED] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Shirley Stewart Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Shirley Stewart's father, Chester McGee, settled in the Cold Creek area and drilled the last, and one of the largest, artesian wells on the central plateau. Shirley grew up on the McGee homestead and attended school in White Bluffs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/17/2020 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F329749fd42c233cf6cd2c02dc34e1314.JPG 98d42c9d88f2243abec0c2b50adc08dd https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F41556d64837fd14beb77a5c103e2ec43.mp4 d7ae61c1201c7caca4f3f86fbd36c455 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Gabaldon Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Larry Gabaldon on July 11, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Larry about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Larry Gabaldon: Larry Gabaldon. G-A-B-A-L-D-O-N. Franklin: And L-A-R-R-Y? Gabaldon: Larry? Yes. Franklin: Okay. So, Larry, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. Or, are you from the area? Gabaldon: No, I’m from, originally from New Mexico. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: And I went in the service for four years, and I had a brother-in-law that worked up here in farming and chicken, or egg producing field. And he says, when you get out of the service, if you need a job, come on up. So I came up to work for him, and within six months or so, people told me, you should go out and work in the Area and make big money. And I—what area? I had no clue. So I looked into it and I joined the electrical union and within 11 months or so I was out there working. Franklin: What year was it that you— Gabaldon: 1977. Franklin: Okay. So did you have electrician training in the service then, or how did you get into that field? Gabaldon: No, other than—this sounds crazy, but wiring chicken houses. But these are huge, you know, they’re 80,000 chickens per house. So they’re huge commercial operation. And the processing plants and stuff. So I was an electrician there and I learned a lot in a hurry and was running crews and stuff like that. And I’m bilingual so that helped a lot. So anyway, I didn’t know anybody in the electrical field, you know, out here where a lot of people, you either need to have a relative or a friend or somebody that could help you get in. Like I said, I was only here for about 11 months. Anyway, they hired me. Franklin: And what was the first job you had out on the Site? Gabaldon: The 300 Area, as an electrician—electrician apprentice. I tried to drive right onto the 300 Area, it’d be the north gate. And got stopped. [LAUGHTER] And a superintendent was coming out at the same time. He says, oh, you must be the new electrician apprentice. So he kind of escorted me over to the electrical trailer. Franklin: So were there still the buses in those days, or--? Gabaldon: Yes, yeah there was. Franklin: Oh, okay. But you didn’t know about the buses, or—did you not— Gabaldon: No, they said report out to the 300 Area and I drove right out there. Yeah, I didn’t—it was all new to me. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Did you know right away what was being made at Hanford, or did you just know it was a good-paying job? Gabaldon: As I started, you know, getting closer and closer, I was learning more and more about it. I was asking a lot of questions. Of course, as soon as I went out there, they’re telling me to put these coveralls on and all this plastic stuff. And, why? [LAUGHTER] There’s a lot of people that just didn’t want to do it. They’d just quit. As soon as they’d tell them they had to put all this PPE, they’d just, nope, I’ll go somewhere else and work. But it was interesting. And you understand it. It made sense then, anyway. Franklin: What do you mean? Gabaldon: As far as, you know, protecting yourself from contamination. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Did you find it challenging to run electrical lines and do electrician work in the PPE? Gabaldon: Sure, sure. It was hotter. It was probably the worst thing about it. You know, it was a lot of time consuming. Things go at a slow pace out there. By the time you get dressed and get in and get out, there’s a lot to it. Franklin: Did you work with guys who were around your age, or were there some senior guys in the— Gabaldon: I would say most of them were senior. They’d been around there for a while. And then there was a few newcomers like me. But, yeah, most of them were senior. Franklin: What types of buildings did you work out and support out at the 300 Area? Gabaldon: Well, just pretty much all of them. I mean, 300 Area had a pretty diverse type of buildings. There was—I’m trying to remember the buildings, but 305, 308, some of the things that stuck out were the labs—not labs, the cells down there. I’m not sure what they call them now. The lead cells with these big windows, lead windows. I mean, it was a big operation to penetrate those for a conduit or for electrical wires. You know, they had manipulators that went in and out, and we actually used the manipulators to help if we could. Franklin: Oh, really? Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. To pull wire. I mean, you feed it in from the outside. And I’ve been in the cells. I had to dress up. And those cells are only probably eight by eight, if that. And then they’re full of junk, full of piping. Once they put it in there, they don’t take it out. So it just keeps getting cluttered. And then now you’re dressed up with a full two pair of coveralls and plastics and usually fresh air. And gloves, you’ve got three pairs of gloves on. Franklin: I imagine that gets really—I mean not only does that decrease your manual dexterity, but I imagine that gets unbearably hot. Gabaldon: Sure, that’s what I mean. Franklin: How would you guys deal with that? Especially in the summertime. Gabaldon: Well, there was—not so much—time was a big thing. Just limit your time in there. And then radiation limited your time quite a bit, too. But out in 100-N, we’d go out there for outages, and they actually had icepacks. A vest that they’d keep in the freezers, and they’d put these icepacks on you. They’d last, you know, an hour. Of course, now, they’re heavy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I was going to say, that seems— Gabaldon: So they’d melt and now you’re carrying this water around. Franklin: Wow, that sounds—I mean, I guess you’d appreciate that inside, but that sounds really uncomfortable at first. Gabaldon: Mm-hmm. And then fresh air—there’s a purge system on those things that blows air, and you could keep somewhat fresh air blowing on your face at least. Franklin: And was that a tank that—or was it a hose—would you carry the fresh air in with you, or was it a hose that— Gabaldon: Both. It’s both. We carried tanks on our backs, if it was too far in, too remote. But if it was within, I think, I can’t remember, 300 feet or better—about 300 feet, I think, was the max, you could run the hoses. Franklin: Wow. Gabaldon: Hoses, of course, were unlimited. You could stay a little bit longer and, like I say, use lots of air. Where the tanks, they would run out. Franklin: Right, yeah, and you don’t want to run out. Gabaldon: No. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: In one of those cells. So you started as an apprentice. And how long did it take for you to become a full electrician? Gabaldon: Four years. Four years, at least. Franklin: Is that pretty standard? Gabaldon: It’s five years now. Yeah. But I got in just right before that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Kind of got grandfathered in. Gabaldon: Yeah. Franklin: What were some of the unique challenges, in your mind, to working at a place like Hanford, versus a more commercial building? Gabaldon: Well, I guess that, the radiation was probably one of the biggest. Having to dress up and having to do things in a way that you can pull wire in, you can’t pull it out. Everything goes into a cell or into a contaminated area, but very little comes out. Franklin: Yeah, what would you do if you had to change wiring or run—you know, you had old wiring in the way. What would you do in that case? Gabaldon: Well, like I said, you would pull it, but you can’t—it might be easy to pull it out, but you can’t. You’ve got to pull it in. Contamination, you don’t want to be spreading it. So it would all go in. Once it was in, it was trash. It was contaminated trash. So it had to be disposed of a particular way. So once it was trash, we didn’t deal with it. Laborers would come in and dispose of it some way. Franklin: Oh, okay. So it wouldn’t—all of it wouldn’t accumulate but maybe certain types of things would. Gabaldon: Sure. Depending on how contaminated it was. So, you know, the HPTs or the techs there would determine that. Franklin: What was the most I guess frustrating space that you ever had to work in as an electrician, or job that presented the most challenges to you, onsite? Gabaldon: Well, those cells come to mind. It’s in the 300 Area there, but there’s a place where railroad cars back in there and they fill them with waste of who-knows-what. But we were just working on the building and the heaters and the lights and stuff like that. We’re in a man lift, a JLG, I don’t know what they call them, but anyway, a basket. We were trying to keep the machine from getting contaminated, so they’re trying to protect the tires and stuff. And then it extends out above this train and the closer you got to this train car, the more the radiation, the dose rate was higher. So you were always worried about that dose rate. But they had all kinds of gizmos and gadgets for timers and all these pencils. So they were keeping pretty good track of you. Franklin: The pencil dosimeters? Gabaldon: That’s a dosimeter you carry all the time. But when it was a higher dose, they gave you, I want to say a patty. But it was a timer and it measured radiation, and you were allowed so many, you know, I think it was 300 millirem a week? I forget what the doses were. But anyway they would set it 20-30% lower than that, so as soon as that went off, you had to come out. And that was frustrating, as to—you’re just about done, and it goes, beep, beep, beep, you’ve got to get out! Franklin: Wow. Gabaldon: And so you come out. And then you may not be able to go back in, so somebody else has to go in. So you’ve got to explain everything to them and what you did and how to finish it. Franklin: Did that happen— Gabaldon: Oh, constantly. Franklin: Constantly? Gabaldon: Yeah. And out in the outer areas, 100-N especially, they called them burn outs, where they would take us in on a Friday afternoon and we would work for maybe two hours and we would get burned out for that week. Which, like I say, if it was 300, we would get up there about 280 or so in the dose rate. So we’re done for the week. Well, the new week started at 4:30, whenever we got off work. So they’d pay us overtime, and now we’re on the next week, so they would send us in for another two hours, and they’d burn us out for the next week. So now we’re no good for two weeks—or at least for another week. So they’d send us back here to the 300 Area. Franklin: Oh, wow. Gabaldon: So they’d rotate all the people out there. But you’d only get it to go in there for maybe an hour or two hours. Not a whole lot you can do. And then like I said, you’re done; somebody else is going to take over. Franklin: That sounds like that would be really complicated to do a large project in that kind of— Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --situation. Gabaldon: The pipefitters, I’ve seen where they were running in, making three or four turns on a wrench or a pipe wrench and right back out. And then here comes another guy right behind him, doing the same thing until they would tighten a fitting or a bolt or whatever they’re doing. But it may take four or five people to do one bolt or one fitting. Just because they can only be in there two or three minutes. Franklin: Right. Gabaldon: So I never had to get real close to that, thank God. Franklin: Yeah, that sounds like that’s pretty—you would be working in a pretty hot area. Gabaldon: Yeah, real hot areas. Franklin: Wow. What was the most challenge—I already asked you that one. What was the most rewarding job that you—or project you supported in your time onsite? Gabaldon: Wow, there’s quite a few. I’m trying to remember some of them, but a lot of them—there’s the 331 Building, where they had a lot of animals. They were doing all kinds of studies on them. We would watch the progression of them, you know, the animals, some animals had been there for years, and others were just coming in. We would set up whatever they needed as far as electrical support. So we would be able to watch something from the start and right through the end, we could see the whole thing. Even if we were finished with that, we’d be on another project right next to it or close by. So we could see the finished product, I guess. Where a lot of places, you know, you go in and they tell you pull wire from A to B, and you do that, and that’s your job and that’s all you know. But what did the wire do, what’s it for? And the same thing, another crew went in and said, run conduit from A to B and had no idea what. The 300 Area, we got to do everything. We ran the conduit, ran the wire, hooked it up, and turned it on and tested it. So you know, we’d walk away when it’s complete. Franklin: Right. But certainly—if I get what you’re saying, there was a greater level of detailed completeness at Hanford because you were— Gabaldon: Well, the 300 Area. Franklin: 300 Area. Gabaldon: Yes. Speaking of which, where I—I started in the 300 Area. Eventually I ended up at some of the bigger plants: Hanford 1 and 4, Hanford 2. Anyway, they were big jobs. And I got into a little bit of that where you have a print that only shows this part of the building, and it says run from here to here. You have no idea why. And you’ll never see the end of it; you’ll never see the finished product. It was not as—you went home whether you did something or not, it didn’t mean anything. It didn’t have any meaning to it. Where, here, you know, you looked forward to, we’re almost done, we’re going to finish this, we’re going to make it work. Franklin: So you liked the kind of—sounds like it was more of like a collegiate or community at 300. Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Because of—maybe you’re saying because of the smaller buildings or the—kind of how things were, there were a lot of different small projects in 300 Area, versus really large ones. Gabaldon: Yes. And they were all smaller projects. There was a few larger projects where—not very many buildings went up, but—where you might work on the same project for a couple, three months. But usually it was smaller stuff. Just building a greenhouse around a building so that they can open up hatches into a hot area. Of course we’d have to put in ventilation and lighting and maybe heating. Just creature— Franklin: Why would they need to do that? Gabaldon: Where are they? There’s pits, they’re, I want to say, valve pits. So the fitters need to go in there and change valves, replace valves or fix valves, whatever. But these pits are—you know, they’re fenced off, and then you go in closer and they’re concrete pits and they’ve got big, concrete lids. Those are all sealed up. I don’t know what—they’re obviously pumping something contaminated or hot. So they go in and build a greenhouse, encase, enclose it. And of course now they need lights. But then they need ventilation to change the air out. Then they come in with a crane and pull these big concrete lids and expose it. So everything’s got to be contained. And there may be some electrical work in there, too. Franklin: So it sounds like it’s a pretty big greenhouse, then, if it can accommodate a crane. Gabaldon: Well, no, the crane—they would open up a small opening, just for the cable. Franklin: Oh, okay, gotcha. Gabaldon: Yeah, big crane sitting outside somewhere. And then as soon as it’s done, they kind of—and there you go again with the contamination. That cable, they’re doing everything they can to keep the part of the cable that comes in the greenhouse covered. They cover it with plastic or something, and they’re checking it as it comes out. I hear about locomotives and bulldozers and everything else being buried out there because they’re contaminated. Rather than trying to clean them up, they just bury them. Franklin: Yeah, that’s—a lot of what’s in that tunnel that collapsed recently is material of that nature. Gabaldon: They don’t know what— Franklin: A guy described it to me as contaminated solids—solid equipment. It’s not waste as we think about waste, but, yeah, containing liquid and it was too costly or impractical to decontaminate. Gabaldon: Right, right. Franklin: So how long did you work in the 300 Area for? Gabaldon: Off and on for 23 or 24 years, 25 years, I suppose. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Gabaldon: I worked a total of 27 years, but the last, oh, I’d say, in that total time, maybe three or four years, I worked, oh, in town here locally. And then some of the bigger projects. But, like I said, I didn’t care for the kind of work. As soon as I had a chance to go back to the 300 Area, I was ecstatic when I got to go back there. Franklin: Yeah? What other projects did you—you said you did shutdown out at N Reactor. Gabaldon: 100-N, yes. Franklin: Right? And how long did you do that for? Gabaldon: I did quite a few of the burnouts I was telling you about. We’d go out there for maybe a week or two at a time. And it was still kind of a loan basis, where, maybe low on work where we were, and they needed help out there, so we’d go out there and work for them. Franklin: And also maybe low on exposure, too. Gabaldon: Well, that was where the burnouts were, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, right, right. So they could take you and kind of send you back to the 300 Area. Gabaldon: We would get small doses in the 300 Area, and sporadically here and there. But out there, you definitely got a big dose. Franklin: In these burnouts, what kind of work exactly—to get that amount of dose in a couple hours, you must’ve been working kind of near the core, or--? Gabaldon: Well, we were supporting pipefitters, most of the time. And I just remember big tanks and having to crawl under these tanks to get on the other side of them—that’s the only way you could access—and set up lighting for whatever their project was. So we had to drag cords and these quartz lights. Franklin: How much space did you have to go under these tanks? Gabaldon: Oh. I would say less than two feet. Probably 18 or—very little. Franklin: And you were in PPE? Gabaldon: Two pair of coveralls and plastic and then, I believe, fresh air. Fresh air with a hose. Franklin: Wow, and dragging equipment. Gabaldon: Oh yeah. Franklin: There was no other way to get to the other side of these— Gabaldon: No. I got contaminated in that instance there. I got contaminated. There was—like I say, they told me to go in, and there was a ladder. Go down the ladder, under these tanks and set up lighting. So with these masks, you have these big canisters and your field of vision is pretty limited. So when you—to look at something, you can’t just look at it; you’ve got to turn your head. So, anyway, I had to back down this ladder and I’m trying to get all these hoses to give enough slack. And the ladder stuck up—but it wasn’t a ladder, it was just a, I want to say homemade, but it was made with steel, and it must’ve been longer but the cut it off with a torch. So it had really rough, sharp edges on top. I’m looking at the ladder, and I turned around to go down the ladder backwards, and when I did, when I backed up, it poked me in the back of my leg. And I’m like, oh, there it is, okay, so I moved over, and okay now I’ve got ahold of both ladders and I slowly went down the ladder. And then I crawled under these tanks. Well, it’s wet down there, very wet. That’s why we were wearing plastic. And I had a hole in the plastic that I didn’t know about. So anyway I got some moisture in there. When we came out, they—you walk in with your arms spread and laborers that are cutting tape and cutting plastic and taking it off away from you to keep you clean. And then you go to the next step-off pad and they take your first layer of coveralls off. And they kind of check you real quick. Anyway, I was screaming on the back of my leg. So anyway, they kind of set me off aside. They did go back and find my coveralls and find my plastics and they found where it was torn and they found the wet spot on the coveralls. Whatever liquid it was, it was contaminated. So I had to take probably four showers, scrubbing with Tide detergent laundry soap, scrubbing my leg, trying to— Franklin: Your bare leg. Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: Oh, wow. Gabaldon: Just about my butt, really. But the upper leg. But I was just about raw by the time—and it was still—it was 200 counts or less, but they could still read something there. But they said if they could get it down to 200 or less they’d let me go. Franklin: Okay. And they finally did? Gabaldon: They finally did. They kept my underwear. Franklin: What’s that? Gabaldon: They kept my underwear. Franklin: Kept your underwear? [LAUGHTER] Never got that back? Gabaldon: Nope. Franklin: Probably for the best. Was there any follow-up examination? Gabaldon: No, no. Franklin: And has that spot ever given you any trouble? Gabaldon: No. Not as far as I know. Franklin: Well, that’s good. Good to have caught it so quickly. I guess maybe it being wet down there may have— Gabaldon: Well, that’s what spread it, I’m sure. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. But I guess that’s also—you’d know real quick if you had a hole in your PPE if there was moisture. Gabaldon: Well, I didn’t feel it. But they sure caught it real quick. Franklin: Wow. Well, that’s good. I mean, that’s good for the safety aspect. Gabaldon: Yeah, I guess so. Franklin: That sounds like a very challenging job, you know, to crawl under tanks with all that equipment. Gabaldon: Yeah, it is, and you—yeah, I was young then, and it wasn’t a big deal. But I think about some of the older guys that are having to do that. It’s claustrophobic and it’s hard to breathe in those masks. And then you start exerting yourself, you can get overheated pretty quick. Franklin: I bet. And there’s no way to take that stuff off and get some fresh air. Gabaldon: No. Well, the thing to do is to come out. You’ve just got to come out. Franklin: Wow. And so you said you worked out at 100-N. Did you work out at any other— Gabaldon: The Tank Farms, sure. I worked at the Tank Farms for I think a year or so. Franklin: Oh, and what did you do at the Tank Farms? Gabaldon: The Tank Farms, you know, they call them farms, they’re just fenced-in areas above tanks. And all the piping that goes in and out of the tanks is there. They’re either—whatever they’re—who knows what they’re doing. But mostly, when I was there, it was mostly trying to figure out how to clean these tanks up or how to pump them out or how to examine them. So just a lot of sensors, a lot of—oh, gosh, I don’t know. Valves, electric valves, stuff like that. But same thing, you’re dressed in quite a bit of clothing, coveralls. If there was going to be any moisture at all, you’d be in plastic. There was a lot of scares, a lot of vapors and stuff that people were either getting sick or getting—smelling something. So it got to the point where it was required to have fresh air when you’d go into these areas. Of course, it kind of funny that a little chain, or a ribbon—on one side you had to have a mask and fresh air, and right on the other side of it, you’re okay. [LAUGHTER] Wide open. Franklin: Seems kind of arbitrary. Gabaldon: Yeah, so. I don’t know. It’s hard to—you know, you did what they told you to do. And I guess you had to trust and go on their, on all these machines that, the sensors that are trying to detect all this stuff. Franklin: Yeah, I guess that would need a lot of electrical support. Make sure those sensors are constantly running. Gabaldon: And all that. Yeah, it was important. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. You also worked in the 400 Area, too, right? Gabaldon: Oh, yeah, yeah. Franklin: At FFTF? Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: FFTF, was that still operational when you worked— Gabaldon: It was just—it was operational at first, but then they went through the whole phase where they shut it down, and they tried to keep it up and they tried to maintain it. I remember changing batteries out for—not sure—some kind of a backup system in there. And then there’s some kind of heaters on the sodium loop that we worked on quite a bit. Franklin: Oh, to keep the sodium— Gabaldon: Keep the sodium liquid. And that was a big deal when they finally shut the power down to that, where that sodium solidified and there was no going back after that, I guess. Franklin: Yeah. Gabaldon: But the building right next to it, MASF. I started on that from the ground up. Franklin: And what is MASF? Gabaldon: Maintenance and Storage Facility for FFTF. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gabaldon: It’s a square building right next to the dome. Franklin: Yeah, okay. Yes. Yeah, our project I work on, our collection of historic objects and archives used to be right in the 400 Area, right across the street from that building. We were in a warehouse out there. Gabaldon: Okay. Franklin: So that’s the only site I’ve really been to with any real frequency. Gabaldon: Oh, yeah? Franklin: And I guess it’s one of the few that’s still mostly intact, too. Everything is original— Gabaldon: Yeah, I’m not sure what—I haven’t followed it, but FFTF is just sitting there— Franklin: Yeah, it’s kind of eerie that you drive up and the old guard shack is still there, you know, and the parking lots are starting to get overgrown with weeds. There’s still a few people that are staged out there. But it’s mostly, they just use most of the warehouses for storage now, and no one’s really in the facility, except to monitor. Gabaldon: Yeah. In that building, there’s a huge crane— Franklin: In MASF? Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: And what was that for? Gabaldon: Well, just moving stuff around in there. It had a huge garage door on one end where they could bring in—just huge tanks. I want to say railroad tracks went in there. Franklin: Mm. And what kind of work was involved constructing a facility from the waist—heh, from the waist up—from the ground up, at Hanford? Gabaldon: Well, obviously, a lot of big power to go into that building. So all the main power coming in, huge conduit, six-inch conduits, in the ground and ditches. Like I say, it was just a big hole in the ground when I started. So we ran all the power in there and stubbed it up where it needed to come up. And then we watched it slowly coming up. Then they started pouring concrete, and then they started building the steel structure. I remember—this is how far back it was—running conduit on the steel structure, I could walk on an eight-inch beam, 40 feet on the air, and sit on it and hang underneath it and put a piece of conduit on, and stand up and walk another ten feet and do it again. Anymore, you’ve got to be tied off. Franklin: Oh, so you were just up there. Gabaldon: Well, the ironworkers were doing it, and I thought, well, I’ve got to get out there, too. I wasn’t afraid of it; it didn’t bother me or anything. But it makes me laugh kind of. The things that we would’ve gone through if we tried to do it now, with all the safety and stuff involved. Franklin: Yeah, wow. What other types of equipment went into MASF that you helped install? Gabaldon: Like I say, when we did it, it was brand-new. I mean, it was big, wide, open space. There was very little in there. We went back, from the 300 Area, we would support that whenever they needed something. But there wasn’t a whole lot except for a little maintenance here and there. But just, it seemed like a big, open area. It’s so big that one little project was over here in the corner, and some other little project over here. But as far as what they were, I have no idea. Like I say, we just supported the building. Franklin: And you also worked in the emergency response center at what’s known as WPPSS? Gabaldon: Yes, okay. Franklin: Yeah, and what did you do there? Gabaldon: That was just pretty much a big office building, a few, I don’t want to say labs. But nothing out of the ordinary, just brand-new, and hundreds and hundreds of lights, hundreds and hundreds of plugs and receptacles and, you know what I mean? So just real basic mundane electrical work. Franklin: Oh, okay, so you weren’t called out to do electrical stuff from there, you were supporting that— Gabaldon: We built the building. Franklin: You built the building with all the lights and switches and everything had to go. Gabaldon: Yeah, the actual construction of the building. Franklin: I imagine an office takes probably a bit more—it’s probably a bit more repetitive, mundane and— Gabaldon: Yeah, a lot of—that’s what I say, a lot of repetitive, office after, one after another, everything the same over and over again. It got to be a race. How many offices can we do in one day? Or how many, whatever. You put up 100 lights today instead of, you know. Yesterday we only got 80, today we got 100. Franklin: Right, kind of challenging yourself. Gabaldon: That was the only challenge we—you know? Franklin: Yeah, the challenge wasn’t like, how do we run this wire through here in this one-of-a-kind installation? Gabaldon: No. No, it wasn’t. Now maybe at the big sites. The cooling towers, 1 and 4, I believe—or maybe it was Hanford 2. But I remember, the huge wire. Are you familiar with wire, 500mcm? Franklin: I’m not. Gabaldon: 500 millimeters—million centimeters—mcm, I’m not sure what that standards for. Anyway, it’s huge wire. It’s almost an inch in diameter. And then they’d run, there’s three legs for three-phase power. So they’d run three for A face, three for B face, three for—so there’d be nine wires plus grounds and stuff. So there’s a bundle of wire that’s huge. Pulling that wire, I mean, normally, you use some kind of a machine to pull it. It’s just, physically, it’s too much to handle. And the requirements were no mechanically—cannot be pulled mechanically. It’s got to be pulled by hand. So that was, you know, there’d be 30 or 40 of us. It’s like a team of horses—a team of people. You’d just line up, and when it was time to do that, you would bring the whole crew and they’d literally pull it by hand because they weren’t allowed to pull it with a machine. Franklin: How come they weren’t allowed to pull it with a machine? Gabaldon: Some silly spec that said that. You know, I guess not to hurt the wire. With a machine you can nick the wires or damage them in some way. Either way, it takes x amount of force to pull this wire. Whether it’s manmade force, horses, or a machine, you still have to pull that hard. But they made us do it by hand, so. I kind of—I just—you know—questioned it, but I mean, what do you? You just do what you want them to do. Franklin: Right, if that’s the spec, that’s the spec. Gabaldon: Yeah. The control room in Hanford 2, they were just getting ready to start it up. So it was just in the finishing phases, just the last things getting done. I was working in the control room, and I went out there. They hired me, and I went right directly to the control room, I remember. And they said—they gave us all kinds of brushes and dusters, like them plumes, like peacock feathers, I think they are? Some kind of a feather, brushes, you name it. There was cabinets, they kind of went around in circles somewhat, and there was just rows and rows and rows of them. And there was just millions of terminations in there, wire terminations. Our job was to dust these terminations. And I was surprised because they’re live electrical terminations; I don’t know how much voltage was in there. But we had to go in there and with a little brush dust them. And—okay. So you’d open up a cabinet and you’d start at the top and work your way down and dust all the way down. There was two of us, I believe. And it took us three days, I believe, to get through that whole control room. And, okay, we’re done. We came back and said, okay, what do you want us to do now? And he says, you got that done? Yeah, we got it. And he says, well, do it again. [LAUGHTER] I thought, again? Didn’t take long to figure out they’re basically killing time. They just wanted us to be busy there, waiting for, I guess something else to come up. They wanted to keep us entertained or busy. So we dusted them again! [LAUGHTER] But one job I’d like to have seen—once they started, everybody had to come out of there, so. But we were close to when it started, when Hanford 2 started production. Anyway. Franklin: Yeah. And so later, the 300 Area began to close down, right? So you were moved out of there. And where did you go to? Gabaldon: Oh, wow. I believe the Tank Farms. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: I think the Tank Farms is where I went. I spent a couple years—a year or two, maybe a year-and-a-half there. And then I went out to, it’s called East and West. There’s that two— Franklin: 200. Gabaldon: They’re two identical reactors? Franklin: Separations facilities, processing. Gabaldon: Okay. So I was there for you know four or five months. Then I went out to somewhere out there. Oh, gosh, it’s one of the most, the highest security jobs. Franklin: PFP? 234-5? Gabaldon: Dash-5, Dash-5. And like I said, I wasn’t even there long enough to, oh, get to know the place. I just remember lots of high security. We’d have to drive our service trucks in there, and they’d have to be searched everyday. We actually built an exercise room for the security officers. Franklin: Oh, so the— Gabaldon: Inside there. So that they wouldn’t have to come out to exercise; they could just go to work and stay in there, and just exercise and work out. Franklin: Boy, that sounds kind of nice. Gabaldon: Yeah, it was. Franklin: An exercise room when you’re— Gabaldon: It was a nice room. Franklin: You mentioned they searched your truck. Gabaldon: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Did you get searched personally as well, or--? Gabaldon: We had to go through a metal detector. And of course show our badges and stuff. So you’d park the truck, and walk back through and go through metal detectors and then walk back around, get in the truck and drive in. Franklin: How else did security impact your work while you were there? Did they monitor—were they monitoring you, or--? Gabaldon: Well there were places there that there was security all the time. They were, I don’t want to say watching you every second, but they were real close by. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Was that level of security different to you than the other places you had worked out on Site? Gabaldon: It seemed higher, a little bit higher, but not a whole lot. Franklin: You were pretty used to that routine? Gabaldon: Yes. Yeah, just whatever they want, you know? You can’t—you’re not going to bunk the system, you know. Why are you doing that? Don’t ask questions. Or you know, they might tell us, you can’t go in there today. Okay. Find something else to do, because you just weren’t going to go in there until whatever was wrong was cleared. So there was a lot of that. Franklin: How far up—did you end up leading your own crew at one point at Hanford? Or where’d you work your way up your organizational structure? Gabaldon: Well, I don’t know if I worked my way up too far, I mean, as an electrician, a journeyman, and then a foreman. But that’s about as far as I went. Franklin: Did you go to foreman? Gabaldon: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: And that changed—when we had lots of people working, when we had a big project, they’d say, okay, Larry, you’re, you know, going to be a foreman over this. Then we would get down to, I believe, four to six men, so there was only one foreman, so the rest of us were workers. So they would kind of cut us back. Then as soon as we’d get more work where they needed more, we would bring in travelers or temporary-type help, okay, to do bigger jobs. So that’s when— We had a few outages while we were changing out the services in some of the buildings out there in 300 Area. I’m trying to remember the names of the buildings. As you drove in the—what is this south, the G-Way, if you go straight in, is that the south gate? Franklin: Yeah, I think so. Gabaldon: As you go right into the gate, there was a library on the left side? Franklin: Yeah, the technical library. Gabaldon: Okay. And then right across the street, right across the road on the right-hand side, what’s the first big building? Franklin: Oh, I don’t remember. Gabaldon: 324? Or 328, maybe? I can’t remember. But it was a, you know, three or four story building, and a huge electrical service to it. It had been there for years. So we had to literally take all that out and put all new stuff in, and then hook up all the old wiring back to it, and do that in two days. Franklin: Oh, wow. Gabaldon: So there was a lot of pre-preparing. You had to find every conduit coming into it, identify it, identify what’s in it, where it goes, what it feeds, and label it. And then the new equipment, you know, that’s going to sit on that, you have to have it set up to feed all these things. And then everything got upgraded. Pumps and motors and stuff had to be protected a certain way. So it’d take me a couple months to lead up to that, to prepare for it. And then we’d start on a Friday night, start tearing out the old stuff—and they would shut it down, of course—and Saturday and Sunday. We had to have it running by Monday, so. Franklin: Did you end up working a lot of weekends or varied hours? Gabaldon: More than I wanted, but yeah. A lot of the guys that, oh, they were kind of off-and-on work, they loved the overtime. You know, they were in it to make money. I was there pretty steady, so I would rather have a steady paycheck than a big chunk here and there. So I wasn’t crazy about overtime. But when you’re the foreman, you gotta be there. Franklin: Sure. Did things change for you when the different contractors would come and go? Gabaldon: Yeah, slowly. Nothing real major. I can’t even remember all the contractors, but it started out with, I think, JA Jones. And it went to—oh, gosh, I can’t even think of the names of them. But they must’ve changed names, three or four, five times? Franklin: Yeah Gabaldon: But everything pretty much stayed the same. You know, there’d be a big scare. They’re going to lay you all off and then they’re going to hire you back, or they’re going to lay you off and hire somebody else back. It all worked out. I don’t know. A lot of political stuff, but everything, just basically the names changed. Franklin: But the scope of your work didn’t change. Gabaldon: Yeah, the scope of the work stayed pretty much the same. Franklin: I mean, it doesn’t really make sense to fire everybody and not hire them back when they’re the ones that knew how to do the job in the first place. Gabaldon: Right, right. But on the other hand, through the electrical unions, the hiring procedures were what they were kind of was opposing them. You know, the union says, if you don’t have work, you lay them off. And when you have work, you hire from the top of the list. You can’t—the people that were working and got laid off go to the bottom of the list. So you know, you want to rotate the other people. Franklin: And you’re not allowed to bring in—you can’t hire outside. Gabaldon: Well, they’ve got stipulations where you could hire a foreman, call him out by name, basically. So there was loopholes where they could do that. Franklin: And you were a member of the union? Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: What was your take on the union? Did you find it served you well, protected you? Gabaldon: It served me very well and they protect me very well. When there was concerns about contamination, working around the radiation. If we had an issue, we would take it back and the union would fight for us and make sure that we were protected adequately. So, yeah. Tickled to death with them. Franklin: What’s that? Gabaldon: Oh, I’m really glad that I got into the union. Franklin: Oh, good, good. That’s good to hear. Do you have any—is there any interesting or funny/amusing or compelling stories or anecdotes that got to you when you were— Gabaldon: There’s actually quite a few, but I’ll tell you afterward. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay, all right, all right. Understandable. Not camera-worthy, huh? Gabaldon: I’m kidding. Franklin: So you mentioned earlier that you were bilingual. Gabaldon: Yes. Franklin: And you said that kind of served you well when you were doing chicken houses, because I guess you would’ve been working with a lot of people of—who probably spoke Spanish— Gabaldon: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: --as a primary language. So did you grow up in a bilingual household then? Gabaldon: Yes, yes, I did. Franklin: Okay. Gabaldon: Actually grew up speaking Spanish until I went to school, I started learning English. Franklin: So you’re Hispanic by— Gabaldon: Hispanic. Franklin: Did you get a chance to use that much out at Hanford? Were there a lot of other— Gabaldon: Very little. Very little out there. No. Like I say, working with the chicken ranch, I used it quite a bit. But out at Hanford, very little. Franklin: Did you find there was any prejudice against you as a Spanish speaker? Gabaldon: No. No, not at all. No. There was—I don’t want to call it prejudice, but more segregation, as far as—not unions, but crafts, I guess. Between the different crafts, and then between construction and maintenance, and supervision, I guess. So there’s—oh, everybody was—hey, that’s my job, no, that’s maintenance, and no, that’s construction. And then you’ve got supervision trying to just get it done, whoever’s—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Whoever needs to do it. Gabaldon: But other, as far as any other, no, there was not an issue at all. Franklin: Oh, well, that’s good. So you eventually retired from Hanford. Gabaldon: Yes, I did. Franklin: And when did you retire? Gabaldon: Well, officially, about two years ago. But I quit work, let’s see, 11 years ago. When was that? Franklin: 2006? Gabaldon: Yup, right about there. 2006. So I just—it got frustrating out there, you know, the kind of work, like I said, in the 300 Area, I was content and I had plenty to do, we could work as much as we wanted. You know, there was nobody telling you slow down, or stop, or don’t do this. We could get something done. There wasn’t the red tape involved. They would say, get this building done and whatever it took within reason. But when I went out there in the further areas, I mean, they were, oh, watching every little move you made. And just seemed like they were just trying to stop you from working. There was more people stopping you from working than people trying to get you to do anything. And it’s just not the way I like to work. So I just basically played their little game. But I was trying to do stuff on the side. I got rental houses that I started putting together, and then I finally got to the point where I thought, okay, I can do this, I can wean myself off of this working. I was skeptical, but I knew I wasn’t going to get rich working out there. I was making a good living and comfortable but I was always answering to somebody. So I basically went to work for myself and had a lot more free time, and didn’t have to answer to anybody. Franklin: Sure, you could work at your own pace. Sounds like the 300 Area was really kind of the place where you found the most— Gabaldon: Oh, satisfaction. Franklin: Satisfaction, in your career. Gabaldon: Now, the 3000 Area, I worked there for probably two years. Franklin: And that’s in— Gabaldon: Where are we? We’re almost in it. Franklin: Yeah, we’re right next to PNNL. Gabaldon: So, it was the old JA Jones fabrication shop. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gabaldon: They had pipefitters, boilermakers, electricians, fitters, just about a little of everything, carpenters, painters. So they had pretty much everything right there. We were like a two-man crew, maybe three-man crew there. There was a foreman and one other guy and I was an apprentice. Oh, I learned to weld; I learned all kinds of stuff there. But we were making jumpers. They call them jumpers, but they’re a mechanical thing that hooks up to a valve fitting here and it’s got to go up and around all this other junk, and plug into a valve over here. Well, in our case it was electrical fittings. So these big heads had contacts in them. And you’d have to wire them up, run wire through this conduit, and you had to support this conduit so it would stay rigid and stay in that configuration. And it had to be a balanced point, so they’d pick it up with a crane, so it balanced perfectly level. And they could drop it into this thing and it was done remotely. They were made for some kind of radiation-type pits or— Franklin: Yup, yup. We have some of those in our collection. Maybe you made them, I don’t know. Gabaldon: I don’t know; could be. Franklin: Yeah, they would use them in the separations facilities where it was too hot. Gabaldon: Right. Franklin: Where they would operate everything remotely. One of the guys out there told me that every—all the electrical, any of the plumbing, like it all had to go through jumpers, because it would all have to go through this solid wall. Because they really couldn’t service it on the other side or ever go—So, yeah, I did know that they— Gabaldon: So anyway those-- Franklin: --used first— Gabaldon: They’re very interesting. And real complicated. So it was a real challenge to—because the foreman would take a piece of—oh, like a coat hanger—a welding rod and a piece of wire. He would scale it to the scale of the drawings, but he would bend it at a certain angle, and then he’d bend it the other way a certain angle. So here’s this piece of wire that’s got 12 or 14 different angles in it. And the finished product is the wire sticking out here and here, and that’s where these heads went. The heads had a big nut on the back of them and when you’d run that nut in and out, these fingers would come around and grab and then suck it in which would make contact. So if you loosened it, you know. And they had a big, I want to say pneumatic, kind of like an impact wrench that would run that. And that was run remotely, too, with a crane. But they would run that on there and grab onto that nut, and spin it, and this thing would let go and open up and then it would come off. So we would put the female end, or the opposite end, and weld it to a table. And then over here, 20 feet away, we would weld another one so they’re permanently mounted. Now we’ve got to connect those two with all these angles in it and make it work. So when the finished product was, we could pick it up with a crane and hook it up to those. Franklin: And it would be level. It wouldn’t— Gabaldon: Oh, yeah, it had to be level this way, but also the way—we’d have to put counterweights or you know, things to balance it, just to make it hang perfectly level. Franklin: That sounds really complicated. Gabaldon: It was. It was a real challenge. It was fun! It was really fun. Franklin: I bet. I mean, that’s really, yeah, tat’s something that gives you a great sense of accomplishment, getting those in. Gabaldon: Well, we never got to—we got to make them work there in the shop, and we were confident that they were going to work, but we never saw them work in the field. We’d make them, once they were finished and done, they’d ship them out. I don’t know where they’d go. Franklin: Into some places you don’t want to go. Gabaldon: Right, right. Franklin: Well, great, Larry. I just have a couple other—so you moved to Richland in the late ‘70s, pretty—it had not been a government town for a while, but was Richland different from what you were used to? Was there anything unique about Richland when you moved here? Gabaldon: I moved to Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gabaldon: But, no. It was actually kind of like a little farming town, and where I was was out in the farming community there, Glade North Road in Pasco. So it’s actually halfway to—what’s it called, Eltopia? Franklin: Oh, okay, on the— Gabaldon: About ten miles out of Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay, so you lived there for most of your time? Gabaldon: Well, I lived in town. You know, I lived in Pasco and Kennewick. But working out there for the first year, I was driving out there. Franklin: Oh, yeah, out with chicken coops and stuff. Gabaldon: Yeah. So that, yeah— Franklin: And then you eventually moved to West Richland where you live now? Gabaldon: Yes, yes. Franklin: Oh, okay. So I already asked you about secrecy and security. Well, I guess my last question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Gabaldon: Wow. [LAUGHTER] What would I want them to know? Franklin: Yeah. Gabaldon: Well, that’s a good question. But now everything seems to be going to cleanup, to how are they going to clean this mess up? [SIGH] Protect yourself, I guess. [LAUGHTER] There’s a lot of stuff out there, unknown stuff. Whatever they did back in the day when there was no restrictions or no—everything was new, and now we’re paying for it. I feel like my lungs aren’t quite like they used to be, and I don’t know if it was—between asbestos and beryllium and radiation, I don’t know. I’m sure it didn’t help any. So. Franklin: Were there ever any larger worries about working at a defense, you know, a plant, an area that produced nuclear weapons material during the Cold War? Were there ever any worries for you about that? Gabaldon: No, not at all. I mean, it’s funny to—I saw a lot of people come and go. People from all over the country would come here to work on a temporary basis. You know, the things—you know how Hanford is. Anyway, so they’d come from all over the place. I saw a lot of worry, a lot of people really concerned about radiation, and then about attacks. About, if whoever, some of the big powers, wanted to retaliate against the United States, that this would be a target. Well, I don’t know, I never did worry about that. But they were always talking about, Hanford 2, the way it was built would withstand an airplane hitting it. You know, I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but I was wondering, who would ever fly an airplane into that? And then sure enough, they did it to the towers. So I guess it’s possible. But other than that, no, no worries. The river, I guess. The one in Grand Coulee, I heard people talking about the possibility of that breaking. If that broke, it would wash away Hanford. I don’t know how true that would be, but I’m sure there’d be a lot of water there. Franklin: Yeah, there sure would. It probably would do a bunch of damage all over the place, everywhere downstream. Gabaldon: Well, it would just compound down the river as it—I think if one dam broke, it would break the rest of them. Franklin: Yeah, sounds like it would be pretty—I don’t know what you would— Gabaldon: But, no, that’s never been a big concern of mine. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s good. Well, Larry, thank you so much for coming— Gabaldon: Oh, you’re welcome. Franklin: --and taking the time to talk with us today about your work. I really appreciate it. Gabaldon: No, no problem. I hope I helped some. I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, no, you did. It was really good. It was good to hear about your perspective on being out in 300 and especially some of that outage work, what it took to get the job done in terms of the PPE and kind of the— Gabaldon: Yeah, it’s—I’m sure they still do it even more. They’re more, what do I want to say? Well, let’s just put it this way. In the 100 areas, when you came out, you were in your skivvies, your underwear. And there’s 20 guys lined up, standing in their underwear, and there’s gals surveying them, every little nook and cranny of their body. Nowadays, they have, I guess modesty clothing or whatever you call it. So it’s come a long way from there. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Gabaldon: You know, back, it was a big deal. But then as soon as you went into a radiation zone, you know, forget all that modesty stuff. Franklin: Right, yeah, you’ve got to take care of yourself. Gabaldon: Yup. Franklin: Modesty be darned. Great, well, Larry, thank you so much. Gabaldon: You’re welcome. Franklin: Watch your head there when you stand up. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:07:17 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9983KBPS Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100-N (N Reactor) FFTF 305 Building 308 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 40 years Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 29 years Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Gabaldon Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Larry Gabaldon moved to Washington in 1977 to work at the Hanford Site. Larry spent time in the 300 Area as an electrician, and also assisted at 100-N (N Reactor), Tank Farms, and the FFTF. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/11/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9448b8f1dd5c8a4e487f8847aea17e6b.jpg b3d590060b68612ff79f75d465e19241 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F73750084bb78927a601beb5277b58006.mp4 3c5558b62c1f91153fb057b87244818c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Bown Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Man one: Are you-- Man two: Ready to go. Man one: Okay. Robert Bauman: You guys ready? Man one: We're rolling. Man two: We're rolling. Bauman: We're rolling? Okay. Great. Robert Bown: I'm supposed to smile a lot. Right? [LAUGHTER] Bauman: If you want to. Bown: Oh, okay. Bauman: All right. So I'm going to the official sort of business out of the way first. My name's Robert Bauman. I'm conducting an oral history interview with Robert Bown on June 17 of 2013. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University in Tri-Cities. And I will be talking with Mr. Bown about his experiences working at the Hanford site. Okay? Bown: Yep. Bauman: Okay, great. So I'm just going to start by asking you if you could tell me how--why you first came to work at Hanford? Bown: Well, I graduated at the University of Colorado, and was looking for a job. And Norm Thompson from General Electric Company interviewed many people and we got together and I was hired. And I was--do you want to know why I was—okay, I'll--well, I was impressed with the idea that here is a new energy system. And I wanted to be part of it. So I was pretty excited about working in this industry. Bauman: And what was your degree in? Bown: Chemical engineering. But I consider myself, now, a nuclear engineer by experience. Bauman: And so what was your initial position? What was the initial job, then, that you had? Bown: Well, started out as a technical graduate, and spent some time in training. And actually I had to have a security clearance, so I was in a survey team laying out power lines, things like that, to begin with. Just to mark time. When the clearance came, well then the work started. And I went to--you want an experience? Bauman: Absolutely. Bown: As a technical graduate, I sort of made stops at several spots so that they could look at me and I could look at them. Went to separations and the reactors, and I chose the reactors and they concurred. And we lived happily for some time. Bauman: And so what year was this? What year did you start? Bown: I came here in 1948. And I left in 1971. In the meantime, I worked for General Electric, Douglas United Nuclear, the US--United States Research and--Energy Research and Development Administration, and then the Department of Energy. Bauman: Great. So how long for General Electric then? Bown: Well, until they left the project, whenever that was. I don't remember it precisely. Bauman: And so when you started at the reactors with your first job, were you at the B Reactor? Bown: I was at B Reactor. Bauman: What was your job there? What sort of things were you doing? Bown: Well, first of all, of course, it was in training on shift. Eventually I became a shift supervisor. And then an area supervisor—or operating supervisor, if you will. And then I went into—since that was shift work—went into a day job. And I was the in charge of scheduling and forecasting of the Hanford production and integration with the separations people and Federal Department or--yeah, the government until I actually went to work for the government. Bauman: So scheduling and forecasting, what--could you maybe explain that a little bit? What did that entail? Bown: Well, there were varying numbers of reactors. And I had worked at B and H, but in my day job I worked for all of them. I scheduled the outages, and took care of the accounting for the production of all the reactors, made the reports, and scheduled their outages. Because that takes a lot of people when they're shut down, so you only want one at a time. So you have to be governed partially by the need for discharging, refueling. So you get those variables, and you come up with a schedule that efficiently utilizes the force available. Bauman: And then--so after you did that, what was your next position then? Your next job? Bown: Well, I went to Washington, D.C. and worked for the Department of Energy there. Bauman: Oh, okay. Bown: And that's sort of a big blank period. I don't remember what I did. I must have worked hard, though. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] When you first came to the area then, where did you live? What sort of housing did you live in? And-- Bown: I lived in a ranch house. I was the prime--first occupant. So when the ranch houses were new, I got one. I lived in a little trailer in North Richland for a while. I lived in that house and ended up with two children and a lot of good memories. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: What was the area like when you first arrived here? Bown: What was the which like? Bauman: What was the area like? Richland as a place to live and-- Bown: The area was a mess. The big flood of 1978 had just occurred. Smell was not too good and roads were torn up. A fresh dyke had been built and it was not fully landscaped. And it was sort of a difficult time, but we survived. Bauman: And one of the things I like to ask people about is--Hanford was a very—a lot of security, right? Sort of a secret site, to a certain extent. Wonder if you could talk about that at all? What did that mean for you in terms of your work, in terms of security? Could you drive your car to work? Did you have to-- Bown: What was that last point? Bauman: Could you drive a car to work, or did you have to take the bus? Or how did that-- Bown: Well, either one. I preferred to take the bus and let somebody else do the driving, because the areas were quite distant. But you could drive, and I would drive when necessary. And since I didn't always get my work done in the total allotted time, I'd have to get there on my own to catch up. Bauman: And were there any other—any security issues at all? Did you--I know you had to get a special clearance to work-- Bown: Had to have a what? Bauman: Get a special clearance to work on the site? Bown: Oh, yes. Q clearance. Well, in the security situation, you don't talk too much about work away from work. But Richland—you weren't very far from work, and everybody else was in the same boat, so we could talk shop some, since they were cleared, too. Bauman: Right, yeah. So you worked--what various places on the site did you work then? You worked at the B Reactor, you mentioned. Bown: B Reactor and H Reactor. I think I spent some time at F Reactor also. And then in town for when I was scheduling and forecasting. Bauman: Okay. At the Federal Building in town? Bown: The what? Bauman: At the Federal Building? Or-- Bown: 703. Bauman: Okay. Do you remember any--were there any events that really stand out to you? Any strange happenings or memorable events that took place during your years working at Hanford? Things that really stand out to you? Bown: Well, there was always something happening, and usually it was bad. And you spent a lot of time recovering from incidents, or radiation problems, or fuel element failures--for which becoming quite common when power levels were raised up to very high levels and quality of the fuel wasn't. Incidentally, I spent a year or two in fuel production, too--fuel fabrication in the 300 Area. I think between the time that I was a shift supervisor and the time I became an operating supervisor, I spent a year or two building—making fuel elements as a foreman for the crew of people working with the bare uranium. Bauman: When you worked at B Reactor and you said H Reactor also, how large of number of employees generally were there? Bown: Well, we had--the crew was generally an operating supervisor, called an area supervisor, a shift supervisor, a chief operator, four pile operators, and a couple of the next level down--whatever that was. Utility operators, I guess they were called. And then we had side groups that didn't report to me, but were helpful. Health monitoring--or HI--health, whatever it is, and the maintenance people, we would work with. So just a general plant operation. Bauman: Yeah. Okay. One quick thing I want to ask about was President Kennedy came to the Hanford site in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --and I wanted to know--ask if you were there? Were you at the event? Any memories you have about that? Bown: About when the President was there? Bauman: Yeah. Bown: Well, I wasn't personally involved with--I was just doing my job. I was impressed, of course, with the President, and the notoriety or fame that we enjoyed. Bauman: Did you and your family go out to watch him do the dedication at all? Bown: I think we did, yes. And my daughter says, okay. She was there. Bauman: Yeah. Must have been a pretty interesting—I mean it sounds--as I talk to other people they said that it was sort of one of the first times they really opened up the site to let family members come on to the site, to see the President. Bown: Well, it was just a big holiday. And I think they were impressed with the operation. And I hope they are again today. It's still there, but not operating. Bauman: Yeah. So you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, you said. Bown: Yes. Bauman: Of course much of that, the height of the Cold War. Did you have a sense of sort of the important work you were doing? I mean what did you--what of your, sort of, thinking about—the Cold War would have been-- Bown: As I mentioned earlier, I was pleased to be associated with a new energy at nearly the ground level. It had been going for a while before I got there. And I enjoyed working there. I took a part in community functions, too. Elected to City Council and my wife was elected to be one of the freeholders--20 freeholders--that wrote the--whatever it's called. Wrote the charter-- Bauman: The charter-- Bown: Charter, yes. Bauman: For—the City of Richland Charter? Bown: Yes. So we were involved, both of us--myself and my wife--in the founding of the city itself. It was a going operation before that, but under government control. Bauman: Can you talk about that a little more? When were you elected to the City Council? And what made you decide to run for a seat on the City Council? Bown: Well, I can't remember the exact date, but I was sort of encouraged to participate by an old friend, Fred Clagett, who has better credentials as an old timer. And he kind of encouraged me to work there—or to work in the community. And I served on the Planning Commission, things like that. Bauman: So you were very involved in-- Bown: I was quite active. Bauman: --city government-- Bown: City government, yes. Bauman: --in an early period. And you said your wife was involved in the-- Bown: Yes, freeholder operation. Bauman: Yeah. Why did--do you know why she chose to get involved in that? Why you thought it was important? I know you said Richland initially was a federal city under federal government control. Why you thought it was important to move to becoming a sort of independent city? Bown: Well, you like to be independent of the government control. But since they're picking up the tab, you have to listen to them and accept their advice, usually. And still remain your own person. We tried not to be a servant of the Atomic Energy Commission, whom I generally ended up working for. But we cooperated quite nicely. We worked together. I think it was a fruitful situation where we-- Bauman: So what happened then when the transfer happened from federal government control to becoming an independent city? In terms of the homes, for instance? Were people able to purchase their own homes? How did that-- Bown: Well, they sold the homes to us at a bargain rate. It was 75% of assessed valuation, I think. So we got a good deal. And we were proud to be property owners. Real citizens of a free city--atomic city--famous. Bauman: Were there any--in those early years in Richland, any community events, special celebrations, or community events that were important to the city early on? Bown: Well, nothing really stands out. We had the general celebrations. And it was just normal--a normal city. And we had a good time living it. Bauman: You know, what would you like future generations—maybe somebody will watch this video 20 years from now, or 50 years from now. What would you like people in the future, who might see your interview, or watch part of it, or listen to it--what would you like them to know about working at Hanford? Bown: About what? Bauman: About working at Hanford? And what that was like. Bown: Oh, working at Hanford. Bauman: And what it was like to work at Hanford? And/or living in Richland during that-- Bown: Yeah. Well, since it was my first job, I didn't have an awful lot of experience. Well, I'd worked construction jobs, and things like that, but it was--I was proud to work for General Electric. I didn't have an emblem tattooed on me or anything, but I was a faithful cheerleader for them. And I still like General Electric. I still like the federal government. And they were good to me, and I think I gave them a good--my best. Bauman: And how long--you mentioned that you worked at Hanford from 1948 to 1971, how long did you live in Richland? Did you move at that point? Or-- Bown: I left Richland in 1971 for a job in Washington, D.C. with the Atomic Energy Commission. Bauman: And how long were you there? Bown: Until 1986. Through several employers--General Electric, and Douglas United Nuclear, Energy Research and Development. It seems like there's one--Was there another one in there? Two? Then the—yeah, Energy Research and Development. Well, ended up with the Department of Energy, anyway. Bauman: And when you were in D.C., what sort of work were you doing in D.C.? What was your job there? Bown: Bureaucrat. [LAUGHTER] Well, it's hard to tell you my actual responsibilities, but--because they kept varying. But I don't know. I kept busy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And then I'm going to go back now to when you first came to Hanford, you said something about sort of being a mess because of the flood that year. And I know some people who came here in the '40s talked about the termination winds, you know-- Bown: Yes. Bauman: --when the dust would blow and a lot of people would leave. Bown: The winds blew. They still blew. And the dust blew. But I didn't terminate. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Bown: I was from a dry Midwestern situation, so the desert wasn't too serious a problem. Bauman: It wasn't too unusual for you. Bown: No. During the Depression and drought, the wind blew and the tumbleweeds collected in the fences, and the dust drifted like snow and you could walk over the fences. So I'd had experience. It wasn't too different from the Hanford-- Bauman: Right. Bown: --situation. It wasn't—it did rain a little more, but not much. Bauman: In your various positions working at Hanford, I was going to ask you a question about unions. Were there unions on the campus? Bown: Well, there were not, to begin with. And they were organized. And I was not involved in the bargaining unit, but I had to learn to work with a union as well as the people. No problem. Bauman: Did you have a favorite part—what was your favorite part of working at the Hanford site? Do you have something that you really enjoyed doing during your time here that--of the various things you had to work on? Bown: Well, the scheduling and forecasting was pretty interesting. I started out just scheduling. And then they cut the number of reactors and I also took over the forecasting operations, and some inter-site work--the shipping off of a special products that you made at the reactors. I handled those. And it was a varied job, and quite interesting. I enjoyed it. Bauman: Clearly, yeah. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about? Anything about your experiences either working at Hanford or living in Richland? Any special memories or things you'd like to share that you haven't had a chance to talk about? Bown: Well, I got myself a ski-boat and we whizzed up and down the river quite a bit. And we spent time with our family in the Portland area, so we weren't too far from friends--from old friends and family. Climbed a few mountains. Travelled a lot--Europe, Alaska. We had a pretty full life there. Bauman: It sounds like a good place for recreational activities. Bown: Yes, and for growing a family it was real good. Bauman: And you said you had two children? Bown: Two children, daughters, are both here. Bauman: And they both grew up in Richland? Went to high school and so forth in Richland? Bown: Let's see. Where did you go to high school? Daughter: We moved when I was in 9th grade. Bown: Oh, okay. We moved east. So they ended up in Maryland for high school--most of high school. Robin went to the University of Montana, and Karen, the younger one, went to Evergreen State College. Bauman: Well, thank you very much. Again, is there anything else that you want to talk about? Or memories you have from working that I haven't asked you about? Bown: Well, you've asked all the right questions. I hope I gave the right answers. Bauman: Well, thanks again, very much. I really-- Bown: Sure. Bauman: --appreciate you coming in and sharing your stories and memories. Bown: Thank you for the opportunity. Bauman: Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:27:07 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 7999kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor H Reactor 703 300 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site at least 23 years Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 23 Years Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Norm Thompson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Bown Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Robert Brown started at the Hanford Site from 1948-1971. Robert worked for B Reactor and H Reactor, 300 area, 703, and was an elected member of the Richland City Council. He worked for General Electric, Douglas United Nuclear, and Energy Research and Development. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/17/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. forecasting Hanford hanford site reactor scheduling https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd9b5b13dffbede93df7368c37e2ebad4.JPG 54583d7039ab0df30eab83cbf73dff85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Fix Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Are you ready, Jack? Jack Fix: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Jack Fix on March 30, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Jack about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Fix: Well, my full name is John James Fix. That’s J-O-H-N. J-A-M-E-S. And then F-I-X. Franklin: Okay. Great. But you prefer to go by Jack, correct? Fix: Yes. My dad’s name was John, so I’m a Jack. Franklin: Okay, to alleviate confusion? Fix: Yeah. Franklin: Right, okay. Great. Well, tell me how and why you came to the Hanford Site. Fix: Well, I first came here as part of a—well, as a little bit of background, I was very fortunate to get a—when I graduated out of college, I was extremely fortunate to receive one of the Atomic Energy Commission fellowships. So I had to take the Graduate Record Exam advanced test, which I took in physics, and then get three professors—they willingly sent in these letters. Just remarkably, it was a gift of a lifetime to receive one of these fellowships. As part of that fellowship, there were various institutions throughout the United States that supported these fellowships. In the Northwest, the only one was University of Washington. Oregon State didn’t have it at that time, or I would’ve gone there. But anyway, I went to University of Washington and sat—in the summer after I finished my first year of grad school, we had to go to a national lab. And I chose Hanford. So I came here as a summer, I guess, intern, if you would call it that, in 1969. Franklin: And why did you choose Hanford? Fix: Well, because I was born and raised in Pendleton, Oregon and that was close to home. And, you know, there were lots of reasons to stay as close to home as you could if you didn’t have a lot of money. That’s also why I chose University of Washington, because it was the closest university to Pendleton, basically. Franklin: Okay. And what did this AEC fellowship cover? Fix: Well, it covered everything. They paid—it was a full ride fellowship. They paid all your tuition, they gave you a stipend. I mean, it was really a—it’s hard to imagine how much of a gift that really was. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I bet. And this was for graduate school. Fix: That was for graduate school, right. This is called the Atomic Energy Commission fellowships, and they were certainly very valuable. Franklin: Right, I bet that looks pretty good, too, on a CV after graduating. Fix: Well, yeah, except intriguingly, most people don’t realize, but after the United States landed a person on the moon, they didn’t have that need for all those high PhD physicists anymore, so many of those people got laid off and they all went back and were retraining into like medical radiation physics and things, which is actually where I got my degree, is in medical radiation physics. So things ebb and flow. So when I graduated with my master’s degree in medical radiation physics, it was still very challenging to get a position. I was fortunate that I had worked two years at the University of Washington as a— You know, I don’t want to get too detailed here, but my graduating class from college was the first graduating class that would no longer have student deferments for graduate school because of the Vietnam War. Those were all—that was the very first year. So it affected many people. And then later they introduced the lottery system. So I had a low number. So I actually had to stop my graduate studies. And I was very lucky to get a position at the University of Washington, because I was going to be drafted. There was really no opportunity for me to go into the service to get more training or what-have-you. So anyway, it was just a point of history that affected a lot of people. I don’t know how many people, and I don’t know how many people are familiar with that. Hopefully it’s never repeated. Franklin: Yeah, that would be nice. Is medical radiation physics similar to health physics? Fix: Yeah, it’s very—it’s excellent, yeah, medical is really all part of radiological sciences. It all deals with radiation, it all deals with—radiological science is actually a very broad field, really. It can go from, you know, cosmic radiation to what heats the core of the Earth, to the various types of uses of medical isotopes in medicine. So it’s a very broad field. Franklin: Sure, sure. What did you do that first time at Hanford Lab in the late ‘60s? Fix: Well, in ’69, when I was here as an intern? We, first of all, there was dedicated people on the staff here that supported things, so we had a lead scientist that I reported to. Actually, I reported to Ron Kathren, who many of the people know here locally. Franklin: I know Ron very well. Fix: Yes. Well, Ron Kathren was my sponsor. He sponsored me and another student from the east—from the Tennessee area. So we did all various types of educational things, such as—I don’t recall now—but we did a little bit of work with tritium, as I recall. We were doing things with an area called thermoluminescent dosimetry, which is a little special types of salt crystals which will luminesce when they’re irradiated with different types of radiation. Franklin: Is that the type of stuff that’s in a scintillator? Is that what it’s called? Fix: Well, a scintillator—scintillation is used in like, sodium iodide detectors for radiation and that. It’s very similar. One’s luminescence and one’s scintillation. It’s both emitting light that’s counted by a photo tube and you can relate that to the amount of radiation and the type of radiation. But the right type-- Franklin: What was the—oh, sorry. Fix: Well, it just depends on the instrumentation, that’s all. Franklin: What’s the impetus to develop that type of counter? Fix: Well, you’re always trying to be able to do things more precisely, at greater sensitivity. So, there’s always been impetus to have better detectors, more sensitive, better resolution. It goes on even to the current time. That’s one reason why they maybe use liquid nitrogen to cool the crystals down, so that there’s less entrancing noise. So it all has to do with the improved capabilities. Franklin: Interesting. And what was tritium used for? Fix: Well, tritium is very widely used. First of all, it is an isotope of water. So tritium is extensively used, especially in medical research, because most/many organic molecules include tritium—include, not tritium, excuse me—include hydrogen. So you can have like tritiated label thymidine, all the different amino acids for the DNA. Many. There’s so many uses it’s hard to describe them all, in terms of medical research. Franklin: Okay. Would that be for like marking DNA so that it would be visible? Fix: Well, actually, if you wanted to label an organic compound that’s used in some type of, say, like a hormone or an enzyme that’s used in the body, you could potentially use this to label it. I mean, other nuclides that were widely used were iodine and carbon. There was many, many applications for these. Franklin: What was tritium being studied for at Hanford labs? Fix: Well, another use of hydrogen and tritium—I wouldn’t say that these were studied at Hanford labs, per se. I was taking that as a general question. At Hanford another significant use of tritium was in thermonuclear weapons. The fusion device utilizes tritium. As a matter of fact, all of our nuclear armaments to this day have to be maintained to keep the supply of the use of tritium in those devices, which has a half-life of about 12.5 years, to be adequate for their intended use. Franklin: Okay. And so what were you doing in regards to tritium? Fix: Well, we were, with Ron, we were just studying. I forget what we were doing now. I mean, it’s—this was 40 years ago. Franklin: Sure, sure. Fix: First of all, tritium is a relatively—one thing in the use of a student is, tritium is relatively non-hazardous. It’s a very low-emitting beta emitter. Very low. So it’s relatively—it’s not very hazardous. So if you’re teaching students, that might be attractive. It’s also easily available. And so. Franklin: You said easily available, so it was being produced at Hanford, then, for research use, or where did the tritium come from? Fix: Well, I’m not sure where the—certainly, there was a lot of tritium available at Hanford; there’s no question about that. Whether it was being purified and isolated for use by others, I’m not sure right now. I’d have to think about that. Franklin: Sure, sure, and— Fix: Tritium— Franklin: Oh, sorry. Fix: Undoubtedly, tritium was everywhere at Hanford, as you know. The groundwater plume has tritium in it. It was an isotope that’s widely available. Also, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the history of nuclear atmospheric testing and nuclear weapons in the atmosphere, but there was tritium all over the world caused by nuclear weapon testing in the atmosphere. Franklin: Right. And that’s one of the things that health physicists or others, medical researchers could use to monitor people, because everyone of a certain generation had so much tritium in them, right? Fix: Yeah, I wouldn’t use the words “so much,” but they certainly—since it was not a relatively hazardous nuclide, but everybody had, certainly, measurable quantities. Franklin: Yeah, sorry, I guess I meant so much as to be measured. Fix: Yeah. And interestingly, later on, I’ll describe, but when I eventually became an employee at Hanford, we documented—since when I came here in 19—let’s see, I came here—after I graduated from the University of Washington, I actually went to work for AEC, Atomic Energy Commission, at the national reactor testing station in Idaho. Franklin: Okay. Fix: And there, I was responsible for the environmental surveillance program in the context of analyzing—looking after, gathering the data, which was—these were well-established programs that every major DOE site had—at that time AEC site. So I was just one person in a series of people that had these responsibilities. But my position was responsible for analyzing all the data and writing the annual report. So we wrote these reports and distributed to all the state and representatives and different AEC sites. These were required; there was a DOE order that specified what had to be included, so we did that. And also, when I was at Idaho, we had NOAA was responsible for atmospheric dispersion—the National Oceanographic and Aeronautics Agency. And they also had the USGS, the United States Geological Service, responsible for the geohydrology of the Idaho site. So a couple years later, I came to Hanford and basically assumed the same responsibilities. I came here to do the site wide environmental surveillance program for the surface. And basically at that time, because many of the Hanford facilities had been shut down, the once-through reactors were closed down in the late, like ’68 or so. And worldwide fallout had, by that time, an international pact to stop the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons. So you could see in the environment, very quickly, this decrease in radioactivity, primarily from fallout. Franklin: Right. Fix: But near a site like Hanford, there was also the Hanford contribution. Because there’s quite a difference in the nuclide mix between weapons and at Hanford, which involved reactor effluence. So when we came here, the environmental data, meaning foodstuffs, air, water, you know, wildlife, anything that you could measure that might have importance to people was monitored, had been monitored for years. And has continued to be monitored for years since then. But anyway, when I came here the environmental measurements had gotten to the point where you really couldn’t measure much in the environment. So when I came here, I kind of adopted the techniques that were used at Idaho in which everything was calculated. You would take the effluent data and you’d take dispersion models and calculate what the off-site impact might be. And then you would verify that with the environmental data. So if you calculated minimal impact and then you didn’t see anything with the environmental program, then you felt very comfortable. But, so anyway, Hanford researchers that had these capabilities for using dispersion models, models, et cetera. So we wrote a series of reports, how the radioactivity in foodstuffs, wildlife, the river, how all that varied with time, and how it was declining. And one of the examples was tritium in the river. We wrote a report showing how that had changed since they had all this data. So we wrote a series of historical reports. Franklin: How were these reports received by both inside the kind of DOE/AEC complex, but also outside? Fix: I think they’re fine. I think everybody really appreciated it. I think, for one thing, it was very instructive to see how quickly it had changed. Franklin: You mean, quickly from the Atmospheric Test Ban Treaty to— Fix: , Yeah, right. Franklin: Okay. Fix: Yeah. It was very—and I think it was—there are lots of very interesting things in this data. I guess, being a technocrat, we like data. We love to analyze data. But most people don’t realize, for example, that, say, milk from the western side of the state, Seattle area, had twice the levels of strontium-90, as, say, this area, even though we had Hanford. Franklin: And why is that? Fix: And the reason is because worldwide fallout was predominantly following the pattern of rainfall. So the areas that had more rainfall had more radioactive—had more nuclides from worldwide fallout. And the same thing was true of cesium-137, say, in deer meat, or cattle, what-have-you. But their levels of cesium from worldwide fallout was higher where there was more rainfall. So, anyway, the data that Hanford collected, the contractors at Hanford collected for the AEC, included all of this information. So we included in some of our reports, but it was just a snapshot. What we did was kind of interesting, because things were changing. Everything was going down. And there was some new techniques of analyzing data that we found very—we really wanted to apply this data where we were looking at everything in terms of distribution, statistical distributions. Because you would expect, say, like, particle size of dust particles in the atmosphere would follow a certain distribution. So you can use this method of analysis to see, maybe, what type of—how much of, say, like, a particular nuclide that might exist in the atmosphere and in the environment from different sources, how much might be due to worldwide fallout, how much might be due to Hanford. It was particularly useful for data that might have significant amount of information below detection level. So we were applying these methods and the reports are publicly available and we enjoyed writing them. Franklin: So would you say, then, that for the west side, or for people in areas of high rainfall, would you say, then, that the threat that they faced from radioactive isotopes was more from the testing than from the Hanford production from effluent going into the Columbia River? Fix: Well, I wouldn’t want to characterize it in terms of threat or risk, because, you know, the evidence is that low levels of radiation may not be hazardous. That’s a very—that’s an open— Franklin: Are you talking about, like, Tony Brooks’— Fix: Well, Tony Brooks, but, I mean, in general, the evidence is that, for example, when you go to the dentist to get your dental x-rays, do you worry about the radiation you’re getting? Or if you’re taking a trip to Europe on an airplane, are you worried about a small amount of dose? Franklin: Well, no, of course, but a nuclear reactor represents, you know, I think, a sociocultural fear factor there. Fix: Well, I think that’s true, a social fear factor. I agree with you; there’s a lot of fear. I guess, in my mind, I’m always focused on how much dose is involved, because— Franklin: Sure, because that’s the measurable quantity, right, it’s not—the fear— Fix: Yeah. And actually, that’s why the amount of radionuclides that were becoming prevalent in the environment, it’s why there was worldwide outcries about continuing the nuclear weapon testing in the atmosphere and what led to the worldwide ban on atmospheric testing. Even after they had the testing agreement, there still continued to be some testing in the atmosphere by certain nations. Franklin: Right, more of rogue nations. Fix: Yeah. Well, rogue and even some very—yes. For a long time. And actually in the environmental programs, one of the interesting sidelights or aspects of these environmental programs, whenever there was a test in the atmosphere, we could pick it up very quickly. That was another use of this type of analysis we were talking about. We could pick it up very quickly, and actually at that point, those particular data we would kind of go on to a different program, because people wanted to know what we were seeing. And I don’t think it constituted a hazard or anything per se, but it was meaningful to—it was meaningful information. Franklin: Sure, sure. And it’s an important point you bring up that people are exposed in many everyday, what we think of as kind of everyday activities. Fix: Yes. Franklin: And that we not to worry about those, because I think we’ve categorized those as necessities, you know. And this is, we view, I think, weapons production maybe in a different light. Fix: Well, I think we all agree that we don’t want to take unnecessary risks. But interestingly, like, probably the nuclide that contributes more dose, significant dose to humans from all is potassium-40. You know, that’s a primordial radioactive nuclide that’s been there since the beginning of the Earth—or, time, I should say. And it has a very energetic gamma radiation of 1.46 MeVs. It’s very, very penetrating. And yet it’s unavoidable. Anytime you have a banana, there’s no way to avoid the potassium-40. That is a part of the potassium that we all take in. So there’s no way to avoid it. Franklin: Unless you stop eating bananas. Fix: Well, I think, yeah, but I think the amount of potassium in your body is primarily regulated by the body. If you get too much potassium, it gets eliminated. If you don’t get enough, it starts taking more of it, absorbing more of it. So, potassium, you can’t live without potassium. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. I was also being facetious. Fix: Well, you know, but these are the games that—I don’t know, “games,” but the perspectives that you have to weigh in. Franklin: Sure. Well, I want to go back a little bit earlier, when you said that when you first got to Hanford, you couldn’t measure much of the environment? And why was that? I’m wondering if you could discuss that challenge. Fix: Well, because all of the reactors at that time, once-through reactors, were closed down in the late ‘60s. The reprocessing facility was, I think, PUREX was—I forget its exact operating history, but it was being phased out. So it just wasn’t that many releases from Hanford. We certainly could measure some of the residual. The design of these surveillance programs was always to compare near versus far, upriver versus downriver, to do all sorts of sensible things, to try to see what impact there could be on the environment. Franklin: And where things were going— Fix: Yes. Franklin: --from, once they were created. Fix: Yeah. And for example, there was, of course, the history of the deposition of nuclides in the Columbia River, say, in the sediment behind McNary Dam. So we were always—at that time we were always trying to develop more sensitive methods, since things were—since you don’t really want to have data that has below detection level. That really is not—that’s really very difficult data to analyze. Franklin: Sorry, so, I’m a historian, not a—my last science class was a little bit ago. How do you have data “below detection level”? Fix: Well, if you can’t measure it with your method of analysis, then we just call it below detection level. Everything has a noise level, and if you just can’t discern a signal, you just call it below detection level. You can define what the detection level is. Franklin: So you’re saying that if you know that there is a very small amount of that element there, but you can’t detect it because of background radiation or something, then you would just say— Fix: Or noise in the instrumentation. You know, things are not perfect. Typically, if you, say, take a measurement, and you didn’t put any sample in there, you would have a reading. And historically, yeah, a person might say, the detection level is twice the variability of background that you get in the instrument with nothing in there. Franklin: Okay. Fix: So you might say, well, I can’t detect anything below that, because that’s just background. Franklin: So unlike a scale, you can’t just tare it out to zero and get a clean reading every time. Fix: Right, that’s right. Franklin: It’s always—okay. Fix: Everything has tradeoffs. So what you try to do is you try to either concentrate the material, or you try to combine samples. Like if we’re measuring levels of radionuclide in the air using air filters, they have a certain efficiency. What you might do is start to combine—this actually was done at Hanford, where, like, you’d have the routine samples for every month, for example, or in some cases every week, and then you might take all of them for a whole quadrant that you want to and ash them all on a quarterly basis so you get more information— Franklin: More data into it. Fix: More data, or more if you were collecting a certain isotope, you’d get more of that isotope and so you’d have to—then that would enhance your detection level. Because detection level, at least, would typically be measured on how much air you sampled, versus how much radioactivity you counted. Franklin: So you might need to add multiple samples up in order to get something— Fix: Right, and that actually was commonly done to get to greater detection levels. Like, say you wanted to measure plutonium in the atmosphere, for example, which does exist. So there were always techniques. Or using totally different technologies. Like, we went to filter resin sampling of the Columbia River water, because it was a much more efficient method of analyzing. You could analyze a lot more water with it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fix: So I used all sorts of techniques to try to get positive data. But at some point, you have to weigh, what is the underlying risk in the first place? Franklin: Sure. What other kinds of challenges did you face in gathering this data and writing reports about it? Fix: Well, in those—I think—well, the primary challenge is you want to be sure that your surveillance program doesn’t have any—is not possible to miss anything. That’s probably the first and foremost. But I had joined a very mature program here that they had been conducting this program for many years, and I was just one person in a line of people that had these responsibilities. You had to be sure that you interpreted the data accurately, as well. Franklin: Sure. Fix: So I think it was a very well-run program and everything went together very smoothly. Every site had these programs. So I did that for several years, and then I was transferred to the dosimetry program. Franklin: Was there a lot of communication between sites in these programs? Fix: Oh, sure, yeah. A tremendous amount. Yeah, all throughout all my years of these—that’s one of the most enjoyable things about these programs, is since they were programs that were run to meet AEC or DOE orders, they had to be done by a certain time. They had to cover certain subjects. But, yes, we communicated with other colleagues at other sites all the time. Franklin: Great. One last question about the surface environmental program. Were you, and if so, how, were you impacted by the growing environmental movement in the United States from the creation of the EPA and that kind of growing environmental concern in the general public? Fix: Well, I would say—I wouldn’t call us being impacted, I’m thinking most of all my colleagues were highly supportive. I mean, we all really wanted the data and certainly, I don’t think anyone was in favor of nuclear testing in the atmosphere. But I mean it’s all really—I mean, that’s way before EPA. I don’t—I guess I never really thought about it, because so much of EPA’s focus has nothing to do with radioactivity. So we’re kind of a small aspect of that. Franklin: Or, I guess, were you impacted by the growing anti-nuclear movement? Fix: Oh sure. Sure. Oh, sure. I was impacted, you know, employment-wise. You always wondered why, say, nuclear power couldn’t have been more, as a technology, couldn’t have been more fault-free, let’s say. It just had a few accidents, but the accidents were so significant. Because basically all you’re doing is using the nuclear to heat the water that goes, and the steam drives a turbine. Same thing you do with coal or natural gas or what-have-you. So, like, when I was at the national reactor testing station, we had many reactors there. Because, say, like the Army wanted to have small portable or remote reactors, because you could fuel them, put them in, say, the Arctic Circle, they’d run for years and years, and could be maintained by just a couple people. Franklin: Right, you wouldn’t have to keep trucking in fuel. Fix: Right, you wouldn’t have to ship in, wouldn’t have to have—yeah. It’s totally different dynamics, in terms of the tactical aspects of maintaining the facility. The same reason, or similar reason why you have the nuclear submarines. Franklin: Right. Fix: Nuclear-powered submarines. Franklin: So tell me about the occupational external dosimetry program. Fix: Well, after I had spent about five years in the environmental program here, then it was common practice there of my management to transfer professionals to other disciplines. So I think in about December of ’79 or so, I started here in ’74, and then ’79 I was transferred to the site-wide personnel dosimetry program. And that was very interesting, because, whereas the environmental surveillance program is kind of somewhat removed from operations, we kind of always gathering data, even though we write the official reports of the impact and everything, it’s kind of like after-the-fact. When I went to the external dosimetry program, we were really a part of the operation. We were a part of what would happen with, you know, doses where people actually working, say, yesterday, if we had a significant job, versus— And even though there I was primarily responsible for the dosimetry that would determine the official dose of record. We were responsible for the nuclear accident of personnel dosimetry. And actually interestingly we did the environmental dosimetry as well at that time. Because it was all part of the same type of technology. Franklin: And was this site-wide? Fix: Yes, site-wide. Franklin: Okay, so for every Hanford employee. Fix: Every Hanford employee. Everybody, both employees and visitors to the Site, all were required to wear dosimetry, and it served everybody. This is a program that, of course, had started with the very beginning of Hanford operations in the ‘40s, ’43, ’44 or whatever it was. And through time, there had been technological changes. So when I came here, it was common practice for every site to have designed its own dosimeters and its own technology reader systems to process these dosimeters. Because there really was no commercial source of equipment that could be used for this. Franklin: What types did Hanford have? Fix: What’s that? I’m sorry. Franklin: What types did Hanford have? Of dosimeter and reading? Fix: Well, they had actually, they had—about ’71, they introduced a new type of dosimetry called the thermoluminescent dosimeter. Again, this was a small crystals of salt that had the capability of responding to radiation, storing the signal, and then upon heating, would give off a light, give off a signal, in the form of light that could be measured that was indicative of the amount of radiation received. Franklin: And was that part of what you were working on as an intern? Fix: Well, that’s a great—you mean as a graduate student? Yeah. This thermoluminescent dosimetry was being used everywhere. At University of Washington, we used it also. Everybody used it. It was the replacement to film dosimetry. You know, you had these little crystals of salt that you could use that were just very handy. There’s quite a bit of physics that went into using these properly. But fundamentally it was sort of the latest technology at that time. Franklin: Okay. And what other kinds of equipment did Hanford—did you use to monitor? Because you mentioned Hanford had its own dosimeters and dosimeter process equipment. So what other types of equipment? Fix: Well, first of all, the dosimeters are really the after—they provide the official dose of record, but that’s really after-the-fact. When people go into the workplace, you’re not depending on a dosimeter to keep them safe. They go in with instruments, primarily instruments. People have knowledge of the work environment—typically they know what the hazards are. Now, as you probably know, that Hanford had a special workforce called the radiation protection monitors. Their whole job was to evaluate the work environment and accompany workers when they entered to make sure they were not taking undue risks using instruments. So instruments were always the number one thing. And one of the reasons this particular program involved working with this field was because you had to really make sure the dosimetry and the instrumentation were consistent. There’s a lot of science behind using the right instrument as well as using the right dosimetry. Because at Hanford we have many types of radiation. We have different types of radiation that have different energies. And they all may require different methods of measurement. So anyway, you know, maintaining this equipment and making sure it was accurate was my responsibility. And also we had the nuclear accident dosimetry. So I know, like, the first—I came to this program in December, and I had to spend two entire weekends out in December because there had been a situation where a worker reported that he had a high dose and saw a blue flash. So that involved a tremendous response by the contractors. I remember it happened on a Friday night. So we had the nuclear accident dosimeters at the facility. These are actually devices that are located at fixed positions in the facility. So we had to process all of those. And at that time we interfaced with the Site medical staff. So as soon as—actually, I should’ve said, the first clue on this was the dosimeter came in and was read very high. Not very—now, we don’t want to say very high, but certainly very unusually high; it wasn’t a normal dose. Franklin: Sure. It was above the— Fix: Above the action level. We had all sorts-- Franklin: Above the dose of record. Fix: Well, not the dose of record. Franklin: Oh, sorry. Fix: It was above the—we have all sorts of action levels. Certainly, we have the legal allowable, then below that then you have where you have to take action, et cetera. But anyway, this was unusually high. Wasn’t like, life threatening, but it was—so we immediately, you know, the Site response took over, and probably took him to, I’m sure we probably took him to the medical staff, had some blood drawn. You could take blood and have it analyzed, at that time, at Oak Ridge. But anyway, to make a long story short, none of this happened. I mean, it did—the person reported that there was a blue flash and that he had this high dose. But it turned out that the worker, after investigating and the contractor working all weekend, trying to resolve this situation, the person apparently—all the evidence was that he actually took his dosimeter and put it in like a baggie, dropped it down into the spent fuel pool to expose it either—I don’t know if he wanted to get some time off for New Year’s or—because this was happening at Christmas time. Anyway, I don’t think he had any idea what was going to happen, but sadly, we had all sorts of bits of information. This was very much like forensic science, because with this radiation, we knew what type of radionuclides were in the spent fuel, we knew what type of residual contaminants had gotten onto the exterior of the dosimeter. We could tell, essentially, almost exactly what this person had done. And of course once it was all put together, sadly, you know, he lost his job. Franklin: Sure. Fix: Anytime anybody did anything with the dosimetry to—anyway, that was an employment-ending activity. So, anyway, we worked all weekend on that, sadly. But that was, in the long-run that was good, because that was one of my responsibilities. It didn’t happen very often but we had to process those dosimeters. The physics of criticality in particular is very, very complicated. So you really have to make sure that the system works properly and you get the type of data you needed. But anyway, at the same time, we had an effort going on to adopt performance standards for dosimetry nationwide. It actually started years before, actually, decades earlier. But while I was—really become quite a common activity when I took this new position, and of course I was very supportive on performance standards as well. So, we worked on that. We actually made testimonies to Congress about—because there was complaints that if we enacted these performance standards, it put a lot of small processors out of business, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s always these tradeoffs between what was the better, greater good. But the performance standards were eventually adopted and they were quite rigorous in terms of their criteria and what was achievable. There were all sorts of tests done. So I eventually became chairman of the—so this involved a couple of activities. One was every two years you had to pass a performance test where they would take dosimeters that actually employers would wear, send them to a lab to expose to, say, three different type, four different—depends on how you add it up, but several different types of radiation at different does levels, totally blind to you. And then send them back in three rounds of testing, and you had to pass the performance test. Once you got the performance test results, if you passed, then you get an onsite programming appraisal, at least within the DOE system, by two technical experts. So then those results would then be sent to the oversight board to—I don’t know what all I have in here, but I mentioned this is my million-mile backpack from Delta for travel over the years. But I was basically they had the DOE lab accreditation program oversight board, so all the results then went to the board. And there was five of us. Then we would make recommendations whether to accredit them or not. It was a very important thing, because if you didn’t have an accredited program, you weren’t supposed to be able to do dosimetry. So it’s very significant. So anyway I got this nice plaque from the Department of Energy, this service award, because I was the very first chair of the DOELAP Oversight Board for personal dosimetry, which later became external. So I did that from ’86 to ’91. I was actually on the board for a lot longer. But I was just the chair for this particular time. So that was a particularly important award in my—or, recognition in my life from DOE Headquarters. So anyway, it was obviously a very relieved moment in my own personal history when the Hanford program achieved accreditation. Franklin: Sure. Fix: Because, you know, that was not a given. It was a very difficult test. Especially for a site like Hanford, because with plutonium, we had the low-energy photons from the plutonium and also the neutrons so it was not an easy test to pass. So anyway, that program involved a lot of challenges and so I eventually left that program. When I said at the beginning, we had to all maintain our own equipment, our own dosimeters, et cetera. Well, later in time, the commercial, and I guess partially because there was this performance standard, the commercial companies then had something to really focus on. And they eventually came up with technology and reader systems and dosimeter systems that were certainly, the performance was good enough to pass these standards and it was just much cheaper to buy a commercial system. So actually Hanford then implemented a commercially-based system in January of 1995. And at that time, I kind of had left—then I left the program at that point. Franklin: In 1995? Fix: Approximately. Because people were asking questions—were increasingly asking questions about the historical dosimetry at Hanford and elsewhere. I had—since I was responsible for the program, running the program, we were responsible for also going back and looking at the historical trends and patterns. The Hanford workers were an important component of the epidemiological study of the radiological effects on workers. The reason is because there was a lot of Hanford workers; they were employed early in the development of atomic energy; and Hanford had maintained excellent records. And the dosimetry seemed to always be of very good quality, historically. But there were still trends in data that looked kind of unusual where if you started looking at details of the dosimetry, there were some trends in that that people wanted some explanation of. They could be a lot of things. There could be a change in the technology of the dosimetry, or there could have been changes in calibrations, or they could’ve been changes in operations. You know, there could’ve been a cleanup operation or there could’ve been a reactor, could’ve been shut down or what-have-you. So myself and others got very involved in analyzing data, historical data, to provide to the epidemiological community who were evaluating the Hanford studies. So to make a long story short, I did a lot of the—quite a bit of this, partially while I was still a part of the dosimetry team. But then to support the Hanford worker epidemiological study, we did this. Then when that was—the people that were responsible for that program had done some of the epidemiological studies, then those studies were combined with other studies from other sites, like, notably in my case, Oak Ridge and Rocky Flats. So, because they had the problem of trying to—fundamentally, they were trying to determine was there an association with the rate of incidences with various types of cancer with radiation dose. And since, as you know, cancer occurs spontaneously, with or without Hanford. The question was, did Hanford increase the incidence of various types of cancers? And that was very difficult question to answer, epidemiologically. So there they were always trying to enhance their statistical precision, either in terms of trying to have, basically, in terms of trying to have more data. So Hanford, the studies at Hanford, the statistical precision wasn’t really quite adequate, wasn’t sufficient to detect that. So then they combined that with Oak Ridge and Rocky Flats. Still, there, they wanted more precision, so then that was eventually combined with what was called the Three Country Study, an international agency for research on cancer. That was combined with Canada and the United Kingdom. So I supported those studies. I was the—I don’t know what all I have in here, but I had—I was the chair of the international agency research on cancer dosimetry subcommittee at that time. And then we—did I mention then we took that study from the three countries and went on to do eleven countries in the world? Franklin: Oh, wow. Fix: Yeah, for the international study. So I was just the support, the dosimetry support. So the epidemiologists and biostatisticians from all these different residents from all these different countries and everybody would get this data. We would make judgments as to what dosimetry we thought had greater accuracy than others. For example, it was hard, historically, and it’s still hard even to this day to measure neutron radiation. While there’s many types of facilities that have no neutrons, Hanford—many facilities at Hanford did not have neutron radiation; some did. And so we got involved in supporting those studies. So that led—that’s probably why I got my million-mile thing, going—I got many trips to France and that, supporting these studies, which were widely published. Franklin: I see you have a nametag or a thing there with Cyrillic on it. Fix: Yeah, I haven’t gotten to that part. Well, actually, after—I’ll get to that right away. Franklin: Okay, sure, I was just curious. Fix: Yeah, well, actually, after I was doing this for the thing—for the epidemiologists and that, just trying to cover, quickly, my career. The first phase of my career really was the environmental part, which we talked about. The second part was really the Hanford Site dosimetry program, which we talked about. The third part of my career really had to do with sort of taking the data and applying it to different types of programs. One of those was the epidemiology studies, which I was involved in the Hanford program, then the three sites, then the three-country, and then the eleven-country for IRE. These were only kind of part-time efforts; these were not full-time efforts. And then I became involved—then I took over the role in the joint US-DOE/Russian Mayak worker study. Franklin: Okay. Fix: Which you’ve probably heard about? Franklin: I have. That’s going on today, right? Fix: Yes, it is. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve met—I don’t remember the gentleman’s name, but I— Fix: Yeah, Bruce Napier, probably. Franklin: Yes. Yeah. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. I met him over the USTUR. Fix: Yeah. Well, when Bruce—originally, he was primarily responsible for the environmental part, because they had a lot of effluent from the Mayak operation, which is very similar to Hanford in terms of its scope of— Franklin: But they had more releases. Fix: Well, they had more and also but they didn’t have a river like the Columbia. Franklin: Oh. Theirs was slower and— Fix: And also they reposited a lot of it to a lake. Franklin: Yeah, and I don’t know if this is going to be apropos to you, but most of what I know about this is what I read from Kate Brown’s book, Plutopia, which I know had mixed reception among some folks here. But it’s very interesting, her coverage of how different the environmental conditions were in Mayak that led to much greater contamination. Fix: Yes, right. Well, that’s right. You know, when you had eight single-pass reactors running at Hanford and they’re dumping it into—first of all, they went to pools to let some of the radioactivity decline. But then eventually when it went into that big river, and all got sent downstream. Franklin: Sure. Fix: And Russia didn’t have that. But anyway, my job was not the environment. My job was for the workers. Just like we had done the study for IRE for the workers. Because the context was there that the workers should have the very highest doses of all. They’re working in the facility, they live in the environment. And they’re monitored. If anybody should show an effect, you should be able to pick it up with these workers. So I took over the role as the technical lead for the external dosimetry part, working with my Russian colleagues. So that led us to many trips to Russia and many studies. This is actually my name in Russian. You know, my nametag. You know, so? Franklin: Right, no, I can read that. Yeah, Djon Fix. Fix: So, I don’t know why, this is just a collection of things in here. I did this for several years, until we had a major publication special edition of Health Physics devoted to this particular—results from this program. Franklin: The US-Russia— Fix: US-Russia collaboration, right, for studying the Mayak workers— Franklin: How did you find working with your Russian colleagues? Fix: Well, first of all, they were—we worked with them long enough that we really developed some real personal ties. I mean, for example, the interpreters were very nice people to deal with. They knew more about American culture than I did. I mean, they knew all about—their main source of information, I believe, was American movies and American music. So they could name—they were just remarkable in being able to know singers and songs and movies, much more capably than I could, and I lived here. Franklin: Right. Fix: [LAUGHTER] But we were there long enough to see them come in as young interpreters and then get married and then have babies and then have toddlers, you know? So it was quite a nice experience from the human aspect. As far as the Russians, it took us a while to—it took, I think, working with the same team on both sides for them to develop a level of comfort with, say, at least the American approach. Our American scientific approach is that everything is checked and double-checked, and there’s no—you shouldn’t really have any personal—you shouldn’t feel defensive if people are checking your work. What you really care about is that it’s accurate. And I think the Russians initially were not too inclined to have us checking their work, but that was our job, was to check everything. So after a few years, I think it all worked out really well. Our primary job—and actually, this was true throughout my career, my primary job was typically always writing everything up. Writing it up and letting other people check it. Anyway, for the Russians, we did the same thing. It was Russian workers, a Russian facility, and we were there just to mentor them and I guess to represent the DOE’s interest in this work. The reason that DOE was there is because, generally speaking, the impact on workers from American facilities was, at best, controversial. It was never a clear answer to that question. Well, the Russian workers could’ve gotten as much dose in one year as the American workers got in their entire lifetime. So you really were going to a situation where there ought to be some impacts. Not only did that, they had some accidents with workers. So that actually where they actually did have the medically-exhibited elements of radiation syndrome. So most of those were removed from our—from the epidemiologic study, because they’re really more like an accident evaluation. Franklin: Right, you were looking at the dose that someone would get from normal work in Russia. Fix: That’s right, that’s right. Which—that’s correct. Interestingly, the Russians—because we had what were called these hidden cities. So we would go to the hidden city where Mayak was located. These are interesting experiences, because when you enter these towns, you need to only—you can only enter by imitation. Because you go through a—they know how to really have a fence or a border. Because you go through an outer one, and you sit between two barbed wire—you know, with razor wire on the top, with guards walking back and forth with AK-47s. Nobody’s cracking any jokes. So anyway, but the city inside that, they had records for everything. All your family, all your medical exposures, any medical abnormalities you may have will be part of your personal record, as well as all the occupational information. So it’s really a goldmine; it doesn’t really exist, probably, maybe outside, in another country, outside of that type—where you have a captive city, all these records, all the records are maintained, and it be available for study. So we worked with the Mayak facility there as well as what was called the Southern Urals Biophysical Institute, to come up with these studies. Franklin: Is that another secret city? In the Southern Urals— Fix: No, that’s the institute inside, that was located within the—at the hidden city. They’re no longer hidden now, but at one time. Meaning that they would never show them on maps of the area. Franklin: Right, and you couldn’t get in without a really good reason for being there. Fix: Well, we had to be invited by the Russian—it had to be approved by the Russian government. And actually because of politics going back and forth between the United States and Russia, we weren’t always allowed to go into the city. Sometimes we had to—our team had to stay outside of the city, and then they would come out and meet with us scientifically, for the scientific work. But anyway, that’s just part of international politics, I guess. But anyway—let’s see, where was I? So we went on that, and when I eventually left that program when we achieved all these major publications. Because I was getting a little bit further along in my career at that time, and that’s a lot of work to go to Russia. When we land in Moscow, we have to—Russia is a very big country; it has eleven time zones. So once we landed in—we usually landed at Frankfurt, and then at Frankfurt, then you have essentially the same remaining flight that’s going across the United States, four more time zones. There, we had four more time zones from Frankfurt. And then we had to get on a bus and ride for two hours. So it was—you know, you were very tired by the time you got to these facilities. So it was nice working with the Russians. They really developed—you had to be there long enough, I think they initially were very suspicious of you, but I wouldn’t say that that’s any different, you know, if you go and investigate—if you go there like as part of this DOELAP program I was talking about, basically site experts like say the Hanford Site expert and Los Alamos Site expert would go to Oak Ridge to evaluate the Oak Ridge program, there’s plenty of opportunity there for sensitivity. But it all went very smoothly because I think everybody believed in the benefits of the program. Franklin: Right, Well, I mean, it kind of makes sense with the Russians, right? I mean, we were enemies for 40 years and we created all these weapons out of fear of each other, and I guess—I mean, it seems like it’s not hard to imagine, if the roles were reversed, Russian scientists—Americans being very defensive about Russians questioning their research method or their research. Or at least that kind of, that initial— Fix: Well, no, I agree with you, Robert. Even—there’s a little bit even more there to that, I think. First of all, the Russians were in a communist society, and where being a member of the communist party was really a very important thing. They couldn’t always trust their neighbors, let alone trust a foreigner. And the other thing is, is interestingly, where we used to go to work near, Yekaterinburg was the main city where we flew to, that’s where Gary Powers was shot down. In the U-2 plane. I’ve always wondered how would Americans feel if there was a high-flying Russian airplane flying over the United States? I mean, we have—I mean, this is just a question of opinion, because I’m sure we would say we have good reasons to be looking at—they’re not an open society; we’re an open society. Russians can live here. We can’t really live there in Russia. So this is a very complicated thing, but you can certainly understand some sensitivity. But anyway, they handled it very well, and amazingly we were in Russia at this—we used to go there and basically stay at what’s called a danya dacha. It’s a dacha, it’s like a country estate. Franklin: Yeah. Fix: Type of thing. Really was not that nice, but it was comparatively a good place to be. But anyway, when the United States invaded Iraq, we were actually in Russia. Franklin: You mean the ’91 invasion? Fix: Yeah. No— Franklin: Okay, the first Gulf War. Fix: The one where we invaded—no, not the first one. The second—not from—the younger Bush invasion. Franklin: Oh, the second Gulf War. Fix: The second one, yeah. We were actually there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Fix: And on the Russian TV, we could see all of this going on, but we couldn’t understand what was happening. The Russians would very politely not really say—they could only really ask the interpreters. But I was very impressed with how much many of the Russian scientists how much they could do in English. Because we certainly weren’t talking in Russian. We always had to have interpreters. Anyway, it was a good experience overall. You know, initially, it was kind of stressful, because we really had a mission which was we wanted to get the study done, we wanted to verify that the methods were methods that we would agree with. And so we eventually were able to achieve all those things. But it was a challenge. Franklin: So that leads me to a couple questions. You mentioned that in America, the link between workers and cancer was—what did you call it? You didn’t say ambiguous, but you said it was— Fix: Controversial. Franklin: Controversial. What did you find in Russia in regards— Fix: Well, those studies are still being put together and published. First of all, you’ve got to gather the datasets; you’ve got to validate the dosimetry; you have to decide if you want to use all of the population or a subset. You know, like I mentioned these workers that were exposed to very high levels, you may not want to include those. You may want to put them in a separate study. The other thing is, is some of the epidemiological studies, at least historically, really used the recorded dose of record being the dosimeter. Because, like for example at Hanford, everybody had a dosimeter. You had a measurement for everybody. You had people had very little dose, and you had people that had a lot more dose, depending on what their jobs were. But within that population of people, you also had some workers that were exposed to, that had intakes of plutonium or other nuclides. Really those people are actually, maybe should be in another category, because not only did they have external radiation, they have internal radiation. So there’s many ways to slice this data, trying to figure out what data is best to use. And then there’s those that have the neutron radiation. Certainly some workers, like the plutonium workers have neutrons, they have intakes—some have intakes—and they also have external. So that was our role; that was kind of my role as a dosimetrist supporting these epidemiologists to say, well, you know, I really wouldn’t put a lot of—as far as identifying what was the higher quality data, I might pick people that only worked at reactors, for example. They only get exposed primarily to high energy gamma radiation. They’re in this facility, it’s a huge facility with all this shielding. Anything that can get through that shielding, the dosimeter’s going to measure relatively very accurately. So we would go through and analyze various scenarios as to what would be the better data. But to answer your question, I don’t think those data have been published fully yet. Franklin: Okay, so it’s still ongoing. Fix: Yeah, yeah, the study’s still ongoing. Franklin: How did the Russian program differ—dosimetry program differ from the American dosimetry program, if at all? Fix: Well, I’m trying to remember exactly. Well, first of all, they’re always behind us a little bit as far as like, they used film dosimetry for a very long time. A lot longer than we did. I’m not sure if there was any thermoluminescent dosimetry data in what we analyzed. It was all—there’s nothing really wrong with film, but it is—in some ways, film can actually be superior, but it does have—in general, it’s not as good for broad, like if you’re exposed to many different types of radiation. It has challenges with neutron dosimetry, for example. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Fix: So it has a special different type of film that’s used for neutrons. It’s called neutron track emulsion. So I would say that the data was—I think the record keeping and the use of the dosimetry was well done, but as far as the technology, it was probably—they were just getting, I think, getting to the point of implementing thermoluminescent dosimetry when we were there, I think, as I recall. Franklin: Oh, okay, so in that regard, then, they were a couple decades behind. Fix: I would say so, yes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. So-- Fix: I wouldn’t say “behind”; I would say using different, older technology. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay, sure, sure, yeah. Sorry, I didn’t want to—I know phrasing’s important, so I appreciate that. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: So when did you—so what was next, after the Russian dosimetry program? Fix: Well, actually, I was getting to be about 66 or so, and I know I decided that I’d had it with the Russians because one day—I’d suffered from arrhythmias. You know, I got a pacemaker when I was about 45. So I was pulling my suitcase at 2:30 in the morning through the snow in Russia to the Yekaterinburg airport. And I was kind of falling behind the other three or four members of our team, and I was—because you kind of get kind of tired if you have the arrhythmia problem. So I thought, jeez, this is ridiculous, I’m going to have to quit this and I’m kind of at a good place to quit. So I decided there that was my last trip to Russia. Fortunately, we’d already had these publications and there were people to take on whatever my responsibilities were. So I left it at that point. And then I went on, as you may know, around 2000, Congress—another role that I had was Congress, you know, passed the DOE Worker’s Compensation Act? The Energy Employees’ Occupational Illness Act? Franklin: The EEOICPA? Fix: Yeah. That one. Well, I was very involved in that, because I’d been doing this work on dosimetry construction for the epidemiologists and we’d been publishing documents on how to dosimetry construction for—and how to— Franklin: Yeah. [UNKNOWN] Fix: And how to take in considerations of energy and angular dependence because, you know, in a dosimetry program, you had the measurement—you really only know what did the dosimeter get. Because that’s what you’re measuring it with. You really don’t know what the body’s getting. So since cancer is organ-dependent, typically—I mean, you have particular types of cancer, usually it’s organ-dependent. Like leukemia, it would be bone marrow, et cetera, et cetera. So we’d done a variety of work to try to take into consideration the energy and the angular dependence on the dosimetry to come up with better estimates of organ dose, because that’s really what epidemiologists needed. And when they came out with the energy workers’ employment compensation act, which it’s been called, I guess, some of our publications they thought, well, this is a way we can measure organ doses. Because we’re talking about cancer for the workers, we can use these methods to estimate organ doses for the workers in different ways. So at least our stuff got of interest to NIOSH who was responsible for dosimetry construction and also in 1995 the Congress had mandated that DOE transfer their epidemiologic studies to NIOSH. So I’d already had a relationship with NIOSH, even on like the IRAC studies, later. Initially it was DOE then it transferred to NIOSH. So I got very involved in the NIOSH-DOE worker. And when I left Battelle, when I reached 60 I left Battelle and went to work for Dade Moeller and Associates— Franklin: An NV5— Fix: Huh? Franklin: An NV5 company, right? Fix: Now it is, yeah. But at that time, it was Dade Moeller and Associates. So I went to work for them. And even when I was still doing the DOE program. So there I became the principal external dosimetrist for the NIOSH for external dosimetry, but working with many other people and it was the NIOSH researchers. I must say, all throughout my career, you know, I was just one person that—we always had small teams, we were always working together, everybody—my job, usually, typically, was writing it up. And then everybody else would tear it part. And I’d write it up again. And go through a few cycles and then we had something everybody felt good about. So I did that for several years. And there I got to travel to many DOE sites, because every site needed a technical basis document to do dosimetry construction. So I got to travel to, you know, many DOE sites throughout the nation and prepare these documents. So anyway, that was kind of the end of my career after a while. The NIOSH program was a friend, colleague of mine. I went to part-time status in 2011 and in March of 2013, a colleague of mine that I worked with for a long time, you know, there was some kind of cutback, some reduction in funding for that particular project, as I recall. And he decided that he’d just as soon retire and leave the money, whatever money that was available, make sure it was available for younger people. And I thought, well, I’d do the same thing, and we both left. Cleaned out our offices and went on to different things. Franklin: Finally retired? Fix: Yeah. And I had to finish a paper that I was—for the national—well, it used to be the National Commission on Radiological Protection in the United Kingdom. They changed their name to something. Anyway, the same group though. But they wanted the paper written on their epidemiologic study on their recommendation then. I didn’t want to do it but eventually I did do it. Because all the people that could’ve done it better than me seemed to be occupied doing other things and they weren’t able to do it. So once I finished that document, then that’s when I was totally done. Franklin: Okay. Fix: That happened in March of 2013, and then that was the end of my career. Franklin: I’m sure you’re still keeping busy. Fix: Oh, yeah, now. I’m really not doing anything professionally but I’m certainly doing a lot as far as taking care of my body and exercising and going to the local Fun, Fit and Over Fifty club, which is a great club. Doing yoga. So kind of a different perspective. Franklin: Great. I just have one last kind of closing question. Fix: Uh-huh. Franklin: And that’s, what would you—I have one last closing question, then I guess we could show, if you want to show any of the plaques, we could do that and you could talk about those. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: My one last closing question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War? And after. Fix: Well, I think I would stress being a student of science. Science is just so remarkable, and Hanford’s just one particular aspect of science that had to do with nuclear energy or nuclear—I say it had to do with nuclear, radiological sciences. But that’s such a broad thing, I mean, you can talk about the stars, cosmic radiation, terrestrial radiation, studying the functions of the human body and medical research. My whole life has just been so amazing, because of the technology. I would just encourage anybody who loves science—I mean, you can always question maybe the politics, but the science is universal. So it’s just been a great career. Franklin: Great. Fix: Really. Franklin: Well, thanks, thank you, Jack. So the best way—so, if we could show them, we need to get the camera here. Fix: Well, this is my one for the DOE-Russian study. I didn’t know which ones I had here, but— Franklin: What we’ll do is we’ll move this. Okay. Fix: This is my role on the Russian as US team lead for the Russian program. I don’t know if the reflections is— Franklin: That’s not too bad. No, that’s okay. Victor Vargas: There’s a shadow. Fix: I guess you can’t really see that very well. Yeah. Franklin: US Team Leader for External Dosimetry. Fix: Yeah. Franklin: September 2007. Great. Fix: Yeah, I got that from them. It was very nice of them to do that. Franklin: Yeah. Fix: And I think you already have the other ones I have. Franklin: Is that from the Health Physics Society? Fix: Yeah, well, I have a bunch—actually, I was chair of the other role I forgot to mention was I was chair of the Health Physics Society standards committee. I mentioned my commitment to standards, like the standards for that, but I actually worked for, I think I was, for eight years, I was on the committee and then I became chair of the committee. So then I was the committee chair. Then after this, actually, near the end of my career, I actually went out to the international standards organization. Franklin: Oh, wow. Fix: Yeah, so I went to meetings in Paris and Vienna, representing the DOE interest in radiation protection for what’s called Technical Committee 85 Scientific Committee 2, which means nothing, but anyway, it has to do with this one small area. International standards are something that’s very important to all of the world, probably other than the United States. We’re kind of sitting over here and the rest of the world really relies on these international standards. And so do we. If we want to market goods, internationally. Franklin: Sure, sure. Did you have anything—any other— Fix: Well, no, I don’t want to bore people with all of these. I’ve shown those particular ones. I do have a number of health physics-related. Franklin: Like your Herbert M. Parker award. Fix: Yeah, I was very fortunate to receive that and as you know, Herb Parker is, you know— Franklin: Kind of a legend in the health physics world. Fix: He’s a legend and a person that really understood the importance of dosimetry and record keeping. So I was very fortunate to receive that from my colleagues. Franklin: We actually have a painting of Herb Parker in our office, framed, that was given to us. But it’s good. He sits over our coffee pot and watches over us. Fix: Yeah, I’ve only—I don’t think the rest of them are really—they just have to do with— Franklin: It’s totally your choice. Fix: Yeah, I don’t think the rest of them are really worth—I don’t know where my—oh, this is my certification one. This shows a very old person, these are all my recertifications as a health physicist. Franklin: And when do all those start, from-- Fix: 1977, I think. Franklin: Oh, founded 1960. Fix: No, these are all my accreditations. I can’t really function as a certified health physicist without being recertified every four years. Franklin: Oh, I see. Fix: So it shows a very old fellow. Franklin: You just put in your dues. Fix: Yup, that’s right. Franklin: Well, great, well, thank you so much, Jack. It was a really illuminating interview. Thank you for putting up with my limited knowledge of science and health physics. I think you did a great job explaining what it is that you did and the importance of it. So thank you. Fix: Yeah. Glad to be here. Thank you, Robert. Franklin: Yeah, thank you, okay. Yeah, that was really-- Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:23:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9985kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Lab Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 55 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Fix Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Jack came to the Hanford site in 1969 as an intern and built his career at Hanford labs. He received an AEC Fellowship and worked with thermoluminescent dosimetry. Ultimately expanded the field of Medical Radiation Physics. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/30/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F39d03f0487c714c2a40d8c325d3d92b7.JPG 66034390ea94cc8b347e1ed88f62672f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John G. Garcia Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John Garcia on May 22, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with John about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? 0:00:19 John Garcia: John G. Garcia. J-O-H-N. G. G-A-R-C-I-A. Franklin: Okay, great. So, John, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. 0:00:34 Garcia: A friend of mine that I met in Fort Knox, Kentucky, he and his wife moved back out here. They were originally from the Sunnyside area. And he got a job at Hanford, more or less following in his mom’s and dad’s footsteps. He was a welder. So he told me they were going to restart PUREX and PFP and he got me in that good old-fashioned paper application. So I filled it out and mailed it in, and then I drove out here all by myself in August of 1982. I wasn’t here long, and I called the employment office. In the meantime, I found—I had a job picking grapes for Welch’s grape juice and other more or less temporary jobs. 0:01:26 Then they decided to hire people for the restart of PUREX and PFP. It was about 60 or 70 men and women. According to my tribal knowledge, it was the biggest hire of women and minorities in the history of Hanford. They trained us, you know, more or less from the ground up. There were people that were college graduates, there were people that were high school dropouts, and everything in between. So they taught us about safety, about radiological safety, criticality safety, and how to work the process. When our clearances came in—you had to have either an L or a Q, Q being the highest, to work at PFP or at PUREX. When they came in, then you got to go into the building. You had somebody that mentored you for a while. 0:02:33 In December of ’83, that’s when they started the Plutonium Finishing Plant up for real. We were using real life plutonium. What the idea was was extract plutonium from waste products or from the processed fuel rods that came from the reactors, primarily N. And then they would take that to PUREX, separate out some of the uranium from the plutonium and it would go over to PFP and get concentrated. They would make hockey-puck-sized—what we called buttons. It would fit inside of a tuna fish can. About two-thirds of the nuclear arsenal came through PFP in the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s. 0:03:29 So most of us had no clue how it worked. But we learned it. We made lots of mistakes. It was sometimes chaotic. [LAUGHTER] But we got through it. 0:03:34 Franklin: How old were you when you came out? Garcia: I was 30. Franklin: What had you been doing before? 0:03:51 Garcia: Back in Kentucky where I met my friends, I worked at like a grocery store for the military. They called them commissaries. Franklin: Yeah, like a PX. Garcia: Yeah. Well, a commissary is like the foodstuff. PX is like the hardwares and jewelry. So his wife was in the Army, so they invited me to come out here. I lived with them in Sunnyside for eight or nine months. Then I got the Hanford job and moved to Richland. 0:04:24 Franklin: Where were you from originally? Garcia: Kentucky. Fort Knox, Kentucky. I grew up all over the country, and a few places in Europe. So moving around was no big deal to me. Franklin: Were you a military— Garcia: Brat, yeah. Franklin: A military brat. 0:04:41 Garcia: I tried to join the Army—that’s another story. I tried to join the Army and the Air Force during the Vietnam War. And I couldn’t see the eye chart well enough to pass the physical. So I decided, go to Plan B, and that was to make nuclear weapons. [LAUGHTER] Garcia: As it turned out. 0:05:02 Franklin: Yeah. What did you know about Hanford before you drove out here? Garcia: Just from what my friends told me and a small article in the World Book Encyclopedia, that it was a World War II project, and that’s pretty much all the article said in the encyclopedia. And what my friends told me is, yeah, this is where they make plutonium. Plutonium! And so they’re going to start it up again and they’re going to hire a lot of people. Not a whole lot. I learned a lot on the fly. 0:05:37 That was the—I wasn’t a science major or any—in school. I never went to college much. But history was my thing. So here we are, surrounded by history at Hanford. All those old buildings. I was looking for an apartment in Richland, and I drove through there, and it was like E.T. Home, home! Because it looked like military housing. So I felt more comfortable there and I never looked in Kennewick or Pasco. It was Richland. And they had a bus system that would get you there no matter what. Rain or shine, sleet or snow. I lived in Richland about 35 years. Just recently moved to Pasco after I retired. 0:06:23 There’s a picture of N that they took when it was running in 1944 that’s got some steam plumes and all the buildings that are there. That was in the article in the World Book Encyclopedia. It was only a paragraph or two about it. It was still running; it was still secret. So they couldn’t say much. 0:06:50 Franklin: Right. Let’s see here. What were your first impressions of the area when you came? Garcia: Of Hanford? Franklin: Yeah, of Tri-Cities and Hanford. 0:07:00 Garcia: I drove with some friends from Tacoma to Pullman. We came down that hill. There used to be a restaurant, the Silver Dollar, and there’s a long stretch of road that comes out of Moxee and Yakima, and it was all lit up. It was at night. I said, what is that? Oh, that’s Hanford. And that’s about all they would say. So little did I know, that would be my future. Like I said, it was that history from World War II and the Cold War. And I knew this area—I’d been through here before—was desert. There was dry, sagebrush, cheatgrass. It wasn’t the spectacular part of the Evergreen State, the green part. I knew it was dry and barren. But I was impressed by the Columbia River going through all of this and it was dry almost right up to the shore. 0:08:00 Franklin: Where all onsite did you work? Garcia: Let’s see. I worked for 20 years at PFP. I worked about a year or so at PUREX. Worked a few months at Tank Farms, one of the Tank Farms. I worked a little while, a few long months, at what they called True Retrieval. They were digging up waste drums and solid, big, giant boxes full of waste. Franklin: Was that at one of the burial grounds? 0:08:34 Garcia: Yeah. That’s where they would go and dig up stuff out of the burial grounds and then reprocess it and store it in all those big barns across the street from it. And then my last seven or eight years was with MSA, or its forerunner, doing a lot of things. They’re like the—they take care of the electrical grid, they take care of the cranes that work in the Tank Farms, mostly, surveying offices, roads, vegetation, animals. I did a lot of that at the end. That was a nice job. I had a nice little cubicle all my own and worked at my own pace. It was a good job. 0:09:19 Franklin: Oh, wow. So you started as a nuclear process operator. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: Right? At PFP. Garcia: Yes. 0:09:24 Franklin: And can you describe a typical work day as a nuclear process operator? Garcia: Well, not long after they started up, we went to shift. X, Y, Z: days, swings and graveyard. So that was something new to me, although I’d worked nights on the grape harvest. We’d come in and we’d get put on our, what we call SWPs, the white cotton clothes. We’d tape on booties and surgeon’s gloves, two pair. Put on a pair of canvas gloves, and we’d go to our office—or the control room. The manager would tell us, this is what we’re going to do today. This is where you’re assigned. It wasn’t exactly a pre-job, which in later years, really took hold. It was more just the assignments. That was pretty much how they did it every day. 0:10:20 The first part of the PFP experience was the solvent extraction part. Getting the plutonium in nitrate solution concentrated to about 300 grams per liter. Then they would store that. After they got enough of it made, then that’s what they would use to make the buttons. So that was a different thing. They shut down the solvent extraction then we’d concentrate and get some training on the button production. We could make about, on a good shift, about six or eight buttons a shift. If things went wrong, not so many. 0:11:00 But I changed. The first buttons we made, I reached into the glovebox and looked at it. They were about the size of the palm of your hand. They’re a gun metal gray, and they’re warm to the touch. Because there’s so much activity. It’s about 99.9% plutonium, which is what they want. And then eventually they would use that to hone the spheres that went into the weapons. And I looked at this button, and I thought, what have I done? I have sold my soul to the devil. Because this thing could kill millions and billions of people. I put it down. 0:11:41 Then I started looking for another angle. That’s when I got into health physics protection. It’s had a number of different names, but it’s pretty much the same job, setting radiation dose rates for workers, contamination checks, and a million other things. So the snarky answer I made up for my relatives and other people is, I protect workers, the environment, and the public from the detrimental effects of ionizing radiation. Because people asked me what I did, and it could take a long time to explain it without giving away too many secrets. So that was the nutshell answer I came up with. Franklin: That’s pretty good. 0:12:29 Garcia: Thank you. And then later on, they stole my idea and I read that in a textbook. At first, we were radiation monitors, then we were RPTs, radiation protection technologists. Then we got into health physics technologists. 0:12:43 Franklin: Yeah. And that was your way of kind of distancing yourself from directly participating in the production of the weapons-grade— 0:12:55 Garcia: Yeah. I knew I needed a job that paid well and had benefits. And I took less money to do it. I wasn’t married, so I had nobody to account for. So it fit my political philosophy a lot more. And it wasn’t unheard of for somebody to get out of operations and get into radiation protection. But it wasn’t common. But yeah. I was glad I did it. I felt a lot better. And my radiation exposure went down to next to nothing. Franklin: Right. 0:13:34 Garcia: The first two-and-a-half years or so, you know, my exposure was—you know, not life-threatening, but enough to—yeah. And we would have a meeting and the boss would say, well, if we don’t stop doing this, and if we don’t get this done, we’re all going down the road. But I think what he meant was, he was going down the road. So we’d do better, and still make mistakes. And I just got tired of hearing it. It didn’t motivate me. So I said, well, I’m going to find a job I could maybe take elsewhere. 0:14:08 But working at a reactor, a power reactor, like Energy Northwest or somewhere else, that’s a different ballgame. It’s way different. They’re a lot more educated, they’re a lot more talented, and they’re a lot more independent. We were just sort of side-by-side with the operators. At first, in the old days, they looked to the RMs for guidance and protection. But later on, operations sort of ruled the roost. They weren’t interested, so much, in what you had to say. But still it was important what dose rates you were having or the contamination you might encounter. 0:14:53 Franklin: When you said you could produce—was it six to eight buttons a shift— Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: --if things went right; you said, fewer if things could go wrong. What kind of things would complicate the process? 0:15:08 Garcia: Valve leaks, pipe leaks, just like counting leaks, like, were we supposed to have this much material? We only have that much, and then they’d have to look for it. Just breakdowns, mostly mechanical breakdowns. Sometimes in the room, there were the constant air monitors. They were sampling the air, and it had an alarm set point. It had a detector inside of it, and if enough plutonium got on the air sample filter, it would alarm. It would be a red flashing light and a ringing bell. It got your attention. 0:15:45 So you’d have to evacuate the room, because nine times out of ten, you weren’t wearing a respirator. So you had to go out of the room, and then go back—make a plan, and go back on respiratory protection and clean it up. Plutonium oxide is real flighty. It’s almost like alive. You’d have a little bit here and you’d wipe it up, and some of it would go over there. So you were chasing it down. And multiply that by a big room. So that was one of the problems. As well as an internal deposition problem. So that was probably the biggest hold up, was if there was a leak in a glovebox or a bag, then they would seal the material out in like an industrial-strength seal-a-meal. If it sprung a leak, then you’d have to clean it up. Because you couldn’t work effectively with a respirator on. You couldn’t see as well, and it’s a real stressor on the human body. 0:16:42 Franklin: Right, and very hot, too. Garcia: Yeah, you’d sweat up a storm, break your seal and, yeah. You had to pass a physical every year. Part of it was you’d put on a respirator and you had some sensing tubes in it coming out of it. You’d do, turn your head around, read catchy phrases that’d move all the muscles around in your face, to make sure you were getting an adequate seal. And they had you know, just like canisters that would, the particulates, then they had fresh air, then they had SCBA. And the more of that, was more protection. Franklin: What’s the SCBA? Garcia: It’s S—well, that’s what we called it. It was like, on your back like you would wear for scuba diving. Franklin: Oh, right, right. 0:17:33 Garcia: Yeah. That afforded you a lot of protection, but more mobility. The other type was the fresh air, and that was on a hose that connected to your mask. But you know, you had the risk of breaking the connection in the hose, or somebody would step on the hose and things like. And you’d be dragging this hose around wherever you went. So the SCUBA, I don’t know if you could maybe get 45, 50 minutes out of it. But you had mobility. But when the alarm went off, it was time to go and probably get another bottle. But I’d say probably 80% of my time was on the canister. In the old days, they had a single canister, looked like a World War I gas mask. And then later on they got more modern. But it wasn’t the place to—I thought I was bulletproof. Come to find out, I wasn’t bulletproof. 0:18:30 Franklin: So after the being a nuclear process operator at PFP, you moved into being a health physics tech. Garcia: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Right? And that was mostly at PUREX? Or no, PFP. Garcia: Most of it was at PFP. PUREX, Tank Farms, and the other MSA job, the True Retrieval. 0:18:52 Franklin: Could you describe a typical work day as an HPT? Garcia: Just depending on what you were assigned to. You could be assigned to covering the crane maintenance people. You know, those big giant things, that lift up cover blocks that weighed tons or moving equipment around. You had a lot of independence with that. Your boss wasn’t looking over your shoulder all the time. And he would go meet with like the crane operators, and so, what are you guys doing? Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn’t. So it was different enough everyday but it was similar everyday not to be taken by surprise all the time. 0:19:36 The first thing you would do is you’d come in and you’d set up your instruments. You’d make sure they were in calibration, you made sure they worked right. And you would do a source check with radioactive disks and you’d make sure that you were in your parameters for your instrumentation. Because that’s what it was all about. You were nothing without your instruments. My first mentor, he said, John, don’t go anywhere, in a building or anywhere, without some kind of instrument. Because then what good are you? You might as well be a fencepost. So I always, whatever I did, wherever—I always had instruments, then backups to the instruments. Because you could get pretty far afield and you’d break one or it’d go bad somehow and you would, instead of driving ten miles to go get another one, you’d better have another one in your truck. 0:20:31 Franklin: What kinds of instruments would you use for monitoring? Garcia: There was a homemade invention developed at Hanford called a CP. Franklin: A cutie pie. 0:20:43 Garcia: A cutie pie. A lot of the nomenclature for the instruments and almost everything else was secrecy. The CP was pretty much, looked the same from when they invented it. They modified some. It had a cylinder about maybe four or five inches in diameter, about four inches, five inches long. And the radiation would go into the cylinder and it would ionize the air in the cylinder, then it would move a needle. Franklin: Right, you’d kind of point it at like— Garcia: Yeah, or do it from the side, yeah. Franklin: From the side. 0:21:16 Garcia: It had two different kinds, for beta and for gamma, you could take this window off. It made of some plastic-y looking material. Then underneath that was Mylar, it looked a lot like real thin aluminum foil. Then that was for radiation. There were other kinds for that. Then there was what we call a poppy, for alpha. Then there was a GM, a Geiger Mueller. That was for beta-gamma. It looked like a lollipop, only bigger. And it had a screen and the radiation would go through— Franklin: Right, it had a probe. Garcia: Right, a probe. Franklin: We have examples of all of these in our collection. Garcia: Okay. 0:21:58 Franklin: And so the alpha was used—the poppies were primarily to monitor plutonium. Garcia: Mm-hmm. 0:22:05 Franklin: Right? What’s the difference between the CP and the GM? Why would one—you know, they both measure beta-gamma. What was each one good at? Garcia: The saturation point for a GM was pretty low. You could peg it and it wasn’t good anymore to you. It wasn’t made for setting a dose rate; it was to find contamination. Franklin: I see. 0:22:28 Garcia: The CP was for dose rates. And all the dose rates you set and the contamination found was a legal record. We’d have to write what we call a survey report, after every job or after every day. And the dose rates you wrote down, and you signed your name to it. They’re still on file somewhere, probably in a cold storage place in Seattle. All that stuff is a legal record and it’s been used in litigation. So they really—as time went on, you had to write your survey report correctly, because it had ramifications beyond just that day’s work. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. 0:23:11 Garcia: One of the—the coolest job I had was for about six years I surveyed tumbleweeds all over the Site. From Yakima to the Wye Barricade and everywhere in between. Because they would go—the taproot can go about 20 feet, and they would get into contamination, being a very primitive plant. They’re looking for calcium. So cesium and strontium, yeah, that’s just as good to the tumbleweed. And they would soak it up. Because they only live about a year, they would get into the root primarily, and they would break off and roll around. So we would survey the root, the stem, and if they were contaminated—and maybe 3% were—we’d put that in a special truck and then they would take that to ERDF and bury those. 0:24:02 But the rest of them, they would put in a regular old white garbage truck-looking thing and take that to a pit. After they got enough of them, they would burn them. And you’ve never seen a fire till you’ve seen a tumbleweed fire. You could be 100 yards away and still feel the heat. They get pretty hot. I thought maybe they could make starter sticks out of them for campers. They never found anything useful for a tumbleweed. 0:24:32 That was a good job. I got to see a lot of stuff. Especially as an HPT. And in that particular assignment, a lot of places that other people never went to, didn’t have a chance to go to. Because they were stuck in their little facility and couldn’t get out. Franklin: So you’d kind of go out into the natural environment. Garcia: Yeah. 0:24:53 Franklin: Did you ever find much evidence, artifacts from the pre-Manhattan Project settlers-- Garcia: Well— Franklin: --that were evicted? 0:25:00 Garcia: Well, yeah. Yeah. But pretty much that had been cleaned up, and we knew better than to mess with it. We just left it in place. We might tell our manager, he might tell somebody, you know, they found this, this tool or coin or something. But most of it was pretty gone. We never went much into the old town site. A few times, but mostly the tumbleweed search was around Tank Farms. Because they didn’t want contaminated tumbleweeds blowing into the Tank Farms and creating a problem. But yeah we went to a lot of places. 0:25:38 Franklin: What was the most challenging aspect of your work at Hanford? Garcia: Probably convincing workers that I was there for their best interest. Sometimes they would disagree or want to fight or just were stubborn. And their managers, besides. Because it was production versus safety. Even though they may preach and talk, yeah, safety over production, that wasn’t always the case. They were under pressure to produce the plutonium or to get so much stuff cleaned up or whatever. I could see their point, but at the same time, I never had to put myself between them and harm’s way to protect them. But that was probably the biggest challenge. 0:26:33 Being an introvert, for the most part, I had to have a different personality at Hanford than I did at home or anywhere else. And it was exhausting. I had to like, grr. Some people, it didn’t faze them because they were an extrovert all the time. We even had a few patrolmen, when they cut back on the number of patrolmen, who transferred into radiation protection. They had, for most of them, that worked perfectly, because they were used to chewing people out and trying to straighten people out. And I, you know, I would try to be diplomatic, if not polite, trying to tell people what kind of mistake or what ramifications it might have. Sometimes they would listen sometimes not. 0:27:21 So it was—because from what I understand, people that are from 18 to 25—don’t take this personally—they think they are bulletproof. That’s why a young man will get off a landing craft and run onto the beach in northern France. Because they don’t think anything’s going to happen to them. And peer pressure. And a lot of these guys I worked with, that was their age frame, and they thought they were bulletproof. They weren’t going to get contaminated, they weren’t going to get internal deposition. But a lot of them did. Franklin: Right, they just wanted to make some money. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: Right? 0:27:54 Garcia: They wanted to make money and they didn’t think there was anything to worry about. Franklin: Yeah. Garcia: Maybe that was a defense mechanism; I don’t know. But I had healthy respect for it. But then I was a little older. 0:28:04 Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. What was the most rewarding aspect of your work at Hanford? Garcia: Probably bailing people out of dicey situations. Decontaminating their skin. Checking their nose for contamination, and just occasionally pulling them out of the fire. Some of them thanked me, and some of them didn’t. I’d almost—I didn’t live for it, but I didn’t back away from it. Sometimes one of those cam alarms would go off and there’s a room full of people. Then you’ve really got a situation. And I liked doing it. I just wanted to help them out. I knew how they felt: it happened to me. I wanted to make sure that they went home in good shape. And I never had anybody get hurt or really get into a bad situation. 0:29:04 Franklin: Right on. What were some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history such as plants shutting down? Garcia: I think 100-N, when that shut down, it had a ripple effect. You could kind of tell things weren’t going to be the same. And then when they decided they couldn’t run the Plutonium Finishing Plant anymore, they had a lot of excess material that they needed to stabilize. The biggest problem was carbon tetrachloride. They couldn’t find a substitute for it that worked as well in their system. So they tried a number of things and when they came to the realization that they couldn’t do it again, then they shut PFP down. They stabilized the material as best they could, and then shut it down. But that took like about ten years to finally realize, yeah, this isn’t going to work anymore. Franklin: Ten years after--? Garcia: After the initial shutdown. After the Cold War shut down. Franklin: Oh, wow. 0:30:17 Garcia: I never thought it would happen. I thought, you know, the Soviet Union would exist forever, and we’d be making plutonium and nuclear weapons—forever. I read a book earlier this year by Daniel Ellsberg. When that movie came out about the Pentagon Papers? He was also a nuclear war planner. And not only did he steal the Pentagon Papers, he stole a lot of material about weapons and nuclear war. He said that this mutually assured destruction was the craziest idea in the history of the human race, because nobody was going to win. The planet would be destroyed. Every body and every thing would die. Because of the power of those weapons and everything, we would create the nuclear winter. It gave me another perspective. I’m like, God! I really sold my soul to the devil. And his dad was an engineer and a plant designer, and he helped design PUREX and a few of the other places. I never heard that till I read his book. Franklin: Huh. Garcia: So, yeah, that was quite an awakening, too. Franklin: Oh, I bet. Garcia: But I was retired, so I was innocent after that. No, I did my share. Franklin: Wow. 0:31:43 Garcia: But I would talk to people and said, hey, what do you think of this? Don’t you think this is bad? And I would pick my subjects very carefully. Because you didn’t know. There were still, you know—secrecy; the FBI would send you questionnaires and things like that. And it got worse as time went on. And most people said, yeah, there’s a thousand other people that would take my job tomorrow. So it doesn’t matter that I’m doing it, because somebody else will do it. So I pretty much left it at that. I only tried that question two or three times. 0:32:22 The secrecy got changed. At first it was like, you didn’t say a word. The old days, you didn’t tell your wife and kids or relatives what you did. And that pretty much stayed the same until the Cold War had been over for a little while. After some time, they had another level of security and you had to take a psychological test on paper and on a computer and fill out more forms and answer more questions. You know, you had to live pretty much a boy scout lifestyle. But the Tri-Cities always had this squeaky-clean reputation to some people. But underneath the surface. [LAUGHTER] Not so much. There’s a lot of stuff going on. So that was at my time at PFP. 0:33:22 Then when I left that, I got out of that program. Where I worked wasn’t as secure. I didn’t have gates to go through. You had the Wye or the Yakima gate. And then there was another gate, closer in 200-West, 200-East and they would search your trunk, open up your glovebox—or from Idaho, jockey box. You couldn’t say, no. Because otherwise, adios. And that died off. They got rid of those 2-East and 2-West gates and it was just the one, and that was mostly a guy looking at your badge and waving you through. Franklin: Yeah, looking at your badge and then— Garcia: Yeah. 0:34:00 Franklin: Yeah, yeah, because when I go on Site to do artifact evaluations, it’s always—I think that’s a lot of security, but I mean, I wasn’t here in the Cold War days, you know. Because also to get into PFP there was also security at the entrance, too, right? Garcia: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Where they checked your bags, you had to go through like a metal detector and everything. Garcia: Yup. Franklin: So there were several layers. And PFP was also surrounded by, like, anti-tank, there were some anti-tank things and like guard shacks and things like that. 0:34:40 Garcia: Yeah. Yeah, I was going to get to that. Yeah, there were two fences, barbed wire. There were sensors on wires or in the ground. And then the rooms were locked. You couldn’t just go in because you wanted to, in most areas. You had to have somebody open the combination or with a key, and most often you had to have another person with you. You had to have a reason to be there, and you had to have your badge on. Once in a while you’d find somebody that left it behind somewhere. And there were cameras on the outside and on the inside. And PUREX was pretty much the same way. You know, the fences and the guards and the cameras. So yeah. The other places, not so much. 0:35:27 Franklin: It’s funny you mentioned that question that you asked, that kind of tricky question. It’s a question I myself wrestle with. I’m also not from here, and I’ve always—it’s a question I’m always very interested to ask but don’t ask very often. You know? But I’m curious to ask you later about it, if you want to answer it. Garcia: Okay. No problem. I haven’t asked anyone that question in a long time. 0:35:58 Franklin: I bet. I bet not. I mean, my last question I ask is, what do you want future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? And usually the answer I get is about World War II, the bomb won the war. I didn’t ask them about World War II. I’ve always found that was a very interesting way of viewing the Cold War through the lens of the “good” war. But anyway. So I guess that gives you a little time to think about how you want to answer that question, too. I’ll ask that one later; I like to conclude with that. Garcia: Okay, cool. Franklin: I’m just foreshadowing, I guess, for you now. Garcia: All right. I’ll use part of my brain to think about that. 0:36:45 Franklin: I wanted to ask you about, so you had been working out at PFP during the Chernobyl incident. Garcia: Oh, I was at PUREX then. Franklin: PUREX, sorry, okay. Garcia: Which has its own story. Franklin: You were out on Site. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: How did that affect Hanford, and how did that affect the community? 0:37:04 Garcia: That was one factor in the shutting down N. Because they were similar, but not identical. Though, somehow, I understand that the Russians would pull the fuel from the top. [LAUGHTER] Maybe I’m wrong. But at B and all the other reactors, N, they would push the fuel out the back. It would fall in a big water basin. So, when that problem erupted, literally, they said, well, you know, these are too similar. They had shut it down to do some maintenance—long-term maintenance, and then they never started it up again. That was a ripple effect from Chernobyl. 0:37:47 When I was at PUREX, we had these about half-a-meter square tables. They were about a meter off the ground and had plastic coating on them. There were a couple dozen of those. So we would take a technical smear that was on this funny paper. And then you would check it with your instrument. And my manager said, well, when you’re outside doing that routine, be sure you check all those tables, because Chernobyl fallout is predicted to come this way. I never found any. The tables were really there for stuff coming out of the PUREX stack. But I never found anything from Chernobyl. That only lasted a few weeks, and then we never did that again. 0:38:37 Franklin: Was it a flashpoint in how people viewed Hanford? Garcia: Not that I recall. Most people were there to do their job, and they just wanted to get through the day, through the year, through their career. It never—there may have been other parts of the community that really got excited about Chernobyl and how Hanford was similar, but not to my knowledge. Franklin: Hmm. Were there any events or incidences that happened at Hanford while you were working out there that stand out to you? Garcia: Hanford-wise? Franklin: Yeah. 0:39:26 Garcia: There were so many. Where to—[LAUGHTER] What to choose? Not so much. I think one—it wasn’t Hanford-related but it was another turning point. When the Russians shot down that Korean airplane that had wandered into their airspace. That gave me a little more resolve and understanding why all of this had to be, like it or not. I guess, just shutting down PFP, shutting down PUREX and the last reactor, N. Those were big dominoes that fell. But I knew, being higher on the seniority list and having a job that was pretty necessary that it wasn’t going to affect me. Franklin: What—oh, sorry. 0:40:25 Garcia: Oh, when people would get laid off from other crafts, it did bother me. You know, people that you knew or just remotely knew. I knew that their lives were going to be turned upside-down. And it bothered me. Franklin: Was there a general feeling of anxiety during the shut down or the change, the switch from production to clean up? 0:40:49 Garcia: Yeah, because you didn’t know what to expect. When it was in production days, you know, you had this goal to make as much plutonium as you could. But after that was over, the clean up days, it was a rollercoaster. You didn’t know what to expect from one day, one month, one year to the next. And maybe they didn’t either. If the funding was different from year to year. You just didn’t exactly know what to do or what they expected. So, yeah, that was—there was a change. And I used to tell people, you know, it was more fun making bombs than it was cleaning up. Because the regs were all different, the goals were all different. But you knew in the button production days that, yeah, that was what you were here for, whether you agreed or disagreed or not. Franklin: Right, it’s kind of like, where to start? Right? Like, where do you—spent 40 years making this big mess. Garcia: Yeah. Franklin: 45 years. 0:42:02 Garcia: They’ve still got a ways to go. I’m not sure how the Vit Plant’s going to turn out. I mean, there’s three or four big, huge buildings, 88 feet tall, 90 feet long, four, five feet of concrete where the chemical separations was done. Like PUREX, B and T Plant. Good luck! Franklin: Well, and you heard about the recent teardown of PFP, right? A building you worked at, where they found contamination well outside—not high levels—but contamination well outside the projected footprint of where it would be. 0:42:46 Garcia: I was a little angry and a little disappointed, and I just couldn’t understand why they could take down a plutonium facility out in the open air. Maybe they could’ve put a big tent over it or something. Whoever sees this, yeah. [LAUGHTER] You’re crazy! You know, they did the best they could, I guess. They would put blue goo on it to hold the contamination down. They would use big water cannons to water it down. And it just got away from them because of production and money pressure, in my way of thinking. When they first started tearing it down, I was long gone, because I could see the handwriting n the wall. They thought they could turn it into another Rocky Flats. And that’s pretty much how they did Rocky Flats, which-- Franklin: What would that involve? Sorry, I’m not— 0:43:47 Garcia: You know, the blue goo, the water cannons, and just a big crane with a great big chomping device. Chomp down the walls, the pipes, anything inside, and then put it in these big, long semi, like a semi trailer-size containers, and then take that to the ERDF place and put it in the ground. And I think they pretty much did something similar at Rocky Flats, and that was a real small facility compared to Hanford. I think Rocky Flats was about the size of the 300 Area. They got that done quickly but maybe not so successfully. So a lot of those guys, managers and workers, came to Hanford from Rocky when the things wound down, and they thought they could do the same thing here as they did there. And it was just a different way of thinking. Everything was just too different to fit into their mold. So yeah. 0:44:55 It was not a good idea. It really makes me sad. Especially for those workers that inhaled it. My goal always was on any job, that was a failure point to me, if anyone got internal deposition. It happened a couple times and I felt awful for months. It does damage to your body. There’s ways to get it out, but I just didn’t want to look that person in the eye and say, I’m sorry, but— 0:45:27 There for a while, the training philosophy was a rem is a rem—a rem is a measurement of radiation. And whether it’s inside your body or goes through you, like an x-ray or a gamma ray or neutrons. Any body, having it in your body is a different mindset. Even though they can give you the DTPA shot and get most of it out of you, or you can drink a lot of beer and get a lot of it out of you. Just, that’s a different way of thinking. Franklin: Is there something special about beer? Or it’s just a fluid? Garcia: Diuretic. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah. 0:46:12 Garcia: When I first got to PFP as an HPT, we had a meeting with the dosimetry boss and he said, everybody in here has plutonium in them. Well, yeah, that’s the first name of the place, Plutonium Finishing Plant. So it wasn’t a surprise, but it was just another reality check. Because you know you go into a room, do a job, even if the cam didn’t go off, there’s still some in there. Your instruments are only so sensitive. Otherwise, you could make them more sensitive but they’d be useless. You might say something is clean, but it might be just below the threshold. So he told us different ways to avoid a problem. 0:47:01 But, yeah, I’m—They would give us a lung count, these sensitive devices, sensors on your chest or you’d lean up against the sensors. And then the real fun was your annual bioassay. [LAUGHTER] They’d drop this kit of five, six bottles, and you would urinate in them and turn them in in a few days. And if things really went bad, the fecal sample kit. I only had to do that a couple times. But, you know, they boil it down, cook it down, and then use really sensitive instruments to count how much you encountered. But, yeah. [LAUGHTER] I’d almost forgotten about those things! Franklin: We have a couple examples of those, unused in our collection. Garcia: Okay. Franklin: Yeah, when we do exhibitions or bring them out, they always get a—people will be like, oh yeah! I forgot about that thing. 0:48:00 Garcia: Yeah, I’m sure. You kind of have to delete some of your files. And then those people that had the problem at PFP, they had to do that. The urine and the fecal. But we’ll see, we’ll see, who reaps the whirlwind. That’s from some classic book. And I’m afraid some of the workers are going to pay the price. Because I’ve read articles and books about workers from Oak Ridge and other places. The guy’s got a table full of medicine, and most of it’s related to his work in the nuclear industry. So some of these guys, as bulletproof as they may think they are, they will, down the road, something’s going to give. And I feel bad about that. 0:48:54 Franklin: Yeah. Yes. Could you describe the ways in which security and/or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Garcia: The rooms were locked up for the most part. You know, all the gates and fences and stuff, you had to fill out a questionnaire every five years or at random. They’d call your boss up, say, send so-and-so over. You had to give another drug screening sample. Or fill out the questionnaire, or just, if somebody had run into a security problem, they would ask you what kind of person is this? Has he ever said anything threatening to the country or to the plant? 0:49:42 And it wasn’t with the FBI, but I had some problems in my younger years and I sought counseling and I didn’t disclose that. Because I knew what they would do, what they would think. So somehow or another I thought they found out. [LAUGHTER] And they put me in this little room, and, yeah. That was another tough hour. But nothing came of it, but I told them, I said, I understand why you think this, but there’s a long line of people that have marital problems, psychological problems, drug and alcohol problems that you should worry about more than me. I was just, you know. I had some emotional issues. I never heard any more about it. After I signed the papers and got out of that little tiny room, I never heard any more about it. 0:50:41 But, yeah, the security was always on your mind. People, unless you were another Hanford person, you really didn’t talk to other people much about it. I know one of my first bosses when we first started up PFP, he said, don’t say anything. It was like the World War II days, almost. So I got on a bus to come to PFP, the whole bus was talking about it. That had just worn off; they didn’t understand the significance from the old days. So that was okay. 0:51:17 Franklin: Were there any old-timers there when you started work? Garcia: A few. A few that had worked at the reactors. I don’t think anybody from the World War II days was still around. They’d either retired or died. But I had a couple guys I worked with that were pretty close to retirement that had worked at the other reactors in the Cold War days. They had some stories. And if they had a story to tell, I wanted to listen to it. Because they had a vast amount of experience and knowledge. And even if I’d heard the story before, I wanted to hear it again. But for the most part, they kept us away from the old-timers, because they didn’t want us to learn their tricks and their bad habits. They wanted us to be a new generation that followed the procedures, did what our managers said, and weren’t going too cowboy. Later on, we did. But at first they didn’t want their bad habits to rub off on us. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] That’s funny, because I’ve heard a lot of stories, too. I mean, that’s the nature of doing oral history, but, yeah. 0:52:25 Garcia: Did anyone ever tell you about this guy named Don, who was a control room operator at PFP? And a DOE tour came. So Don is sitting there at the console with his feet up, reading the newspaper, which was a no-no, twice. So his manager was leading the tour and he said, Don, what are you doing? Shouldn’t you be paying attention? And he said, you know, if I’m up here calling down valve changes to the floors below in the gloveboxes and the dials are going crazy, you’re losing money. But when things are calm and running smooth and I can read my newspaper, you’re making money. [LAUGHTER] And they left him alone. He was one of those guys, you could call up in the dead of night and say, Don, this is doing that, and that’s doing this, what do we do? And he would know. He probably should’ve been something more than just a nuclear process operator, but he had years of experience and he knew what it was all about. So, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Garcia: He was pretty cool. Franklin: That’s crazy. That’s a good story. So we’re at the last question now. Garcia: Okay. 0:53:36 Franklin: And that is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Garcia: [SIGH] That it was a dangerous job, a crazy job, but a job that could be done safely. For whatever detrimental effects it was to the workers and obviously to the environment. I’m sorry. But I think Hanford was run better than maybe in North Korea or in the Soviet Union. They respected the life and the health and the skills of the workers at Hanford more than at other places. Places, not ever having seen or encountered anybody; I just have that notion. And the legacy that Hanford has left, in terms of all the nuclear weapons, all the contaminated ground and water. I’m sorry it happened, but it had to be done for its own reasons and in its own way. 0:54:45 But I didn’t feel any more patriotic when I was doing it and I don’t feel anymore patriotic about it now. But, yeah, the men and women that worked out there, a lot of them I still remember, still talk to, and they worked hard. It was a dangerous, sometimes crazy job. I don’t want any flowers or trumpets; it was just a job and everybody tried to do it—well, almost everybody tried to do it well and safely. And if we’ve left some problems behind, well, sorry, good luck. That’ll be your thing to handle. Franklin: Well, John, thank you so much for taking the time to come and interview with us today. I really enjoyed your very thoughtful responses. Garcia: Well, thank you. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to say before we turn the camera off? Garcia: No. I think I’ve about said it all. I gave this—I even had some time to give it a lot of thought, and I’ve pretty much said everything I thought of. Franklin: Great. Awesome. Well, thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:56:00 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9987kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Site Plutonium Finishing Plant PUREX Tank Farms Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 42 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Garcia Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource John Garcia's career at the Hanford Site spanned over 20 years, primarily working as a nuclear process operator at the Plutonium Finishing Plant (PFP) and as a health physics technician (HPT) at various facilities like PUREX, Tank Farms, and the True Retrieval project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/22/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5e9efc1b839b0942a2fc6c28de0572a1.JPG e51ba630a75d56cfe24750c1cb18284e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0a6a3259a499c7fe1121af655576364b.mp4 dda71579ddc44f30b311d45592186704 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peggy Gardner Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: I have a little bit of boilerplate to begin with. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Peggy Gardner on May 2, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Peggy about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Peggy Gardner: Peggy Gardner. P-E-G-G-Y. G-A-R-D-N-E-R. Franklin: Great, thanks, Peggy. Tell me, how and why did you come to the area to work at the Hanford Site? 0:00:36 Gardner: My father was a real estate agent in the state of Indiana where we were born and raised. And his cousin lived here in Richland, Washington. And he said their real estate market’s doing wonderful. So my father took a leap of faith. And he was not a man of adventure. So he left my mother for a year and came out here, got his real estate license, and that’s the rest of the story, basically. They moved here, and I followed three years later. 0:01:07 Franklin: And how old were you when you moved here? Gardner: 23. Franklin: 23, oh, okay. So you were in Indiana while your parents relocated here, and then you moved to be closer to them? Gardner: Yes, I did. Franklin: Oh, okay. 0:01:22 Gardner: My father took me on a statewide vacation with my mom and showed me the area, trying to convince me to live here. Franklin: And it seems like he was successful. Gardner: Oh, yes. And I never regretted it. Franklin: Really? What kind of attractions did the Hanford area have over Indiana? 0:01:42 Gardner: Well, not in particular the Hanford area at the time, because I wasn’t that familiar with it. But the state offered a lot more mountains and lakes and fishing and boating and just a lot of things I enjoyed doing. Plus the fact that where we live, the humidity’s so low. And where I’m from in Indiana, there’s very high humidity. So it was a big difference in the weather. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. It’s the hardest part about going east, back east, for me in the summer is the humidity. So how did you begin—well, so you moved when you were 23. Did you go to college? Gardner: I did, and I quit. Franklin: Okay. 0:02:23 Gardner: And when I quit, I got a job as a gas station attendant for Marathon Oil, and became a minor tune-up mechanic and drove the wrecker for three years. So that was where I got my mechanical aptitude, was within that job. But I guess I’ve had it all my life, because I’ve always— Franklin: So you were doing that in your teens and 20s then? Gardner: 19. Franklin: Okay. Driving a wreck—like a tow truck and--? 0:02:51 Gardner: Yes! A brand-new 1976 Chevy. And it had dollies on it. So, yeah, that was kind of fun. Franklin: Did you work with mostly men in that industry, I gather? Gardner: Mm-hmm. 0:03:02 Franklin: Did you find kind of ready acceptance by your male colleagues, or did you—you know, how was it being a woman in a what I think people still today think of as a predominantly male job? Gardner: Yeah. I don’t remember any challenges. I grew up with brothers and grew up as an athlete, so I spent a lot of time around a lot of men, and was very comfortable and confident in that environment. Franklin: So did you find—you said you had this aptitude all your life. Did you find a real kind of calling in mechanics? Gardner: Mm-hmm. 0:03:36 Franklin: And so how did you—you were working for Marathon Oil. How did you—when you moved here, did you go to work right away for Hanford, or how did you get involved out on the Site? Gardner: I wanted to have a career with a job that had paid for me to be able to enjoy life. And I applied at an apprenticeship program. That program then got me into Westinghouse. Because I was accepted in September of 1978, and it was a machinist program that I went into. So that’s when I began. And they accepted me, because they saw the aptitude that I had for that field. 0:04:23 Franklin: Okay. And was that kind of like a technical school kind of apprenticeship, or like on-the-job training? Were you immediately in the job, or was there like classroom training and things that went along with that? Gardner: It was both. It was a state-approved apprenticeship program. Instructed by a couple of supervisors and an estimator. They taught the classes right onsite, and we would go work eight hours and then go to class right there at the building. So that was real convenient. 0:04:59 Franklin: How long would the class be each day? Gardner: Probably two to three hours; I don’t quite recall. But there were three different subjects, ongoing that we were— Franklin: So you were pulling some pretty long days then. Gardner: Well, when you’re young, you don’t see it that way. [LAUGHTER] 0:05:15 Franklin: Right, right. Were there any other women in the program with you? Gardner: Not in the program, but prior to me, there was two other women. They both had quit and moved on to different positions. Then another lady was hired on when I was there and there were probably 35 men and then the two of us. So, yeah. Franklin: So still in a predominantly male workforce. Gardner: Yes. 0:05:44 Franklin: Did you find ready acceptance by your male colleagues there? Were there any struggles or issues that you had to deal with, being one of the only women in this field? Gardner: Yes, there were. It was kind of during the time when equal rights and the women’s movement and “I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar” was out. And there was a lot of resistancy by some of the older craftsmen. But on the other hand, I feel like I assimilated pretty well. And you learn to know who feels that way about you and just be thoughtful about that. Franklin: Sure. Are there any incidences that kind of ring out in your mind? Any experiences that you care to elaborate on? 0:06:35 Gardner: I’ll say two I have, just right off the top of my head. The first week I hired in, the lunchroom, we had union breaks. I went in and sat down, not thinking each chair was sacred, like in church when you go to church, you know people sit in their own pew or whatever. I sat down in a chair, and a gentleman came in and took me by the scruff of my coveralls and literally raised me up out of my chair and moved me over. And I thought, well, I guess I shouldn’t sit here! [LAUGHTER] But he was a real crotchety old fart, but I loved him to pieces. So we gained a really close friendship. But that was my first week. 0:07:19 Another interesting part of my career was, I was working on a project that another fellow machinist had been working on. And the setup was rather slow. So I was given an overtime job to continue on with his job. And I changed the setup and actually was able to complete the parts a lot quicker. And I got written up for it. For not going to my manager and asking to do that. So that was kind of hard. It hurt. And I didn’t make a stand for myself back then. I probably would now that I’m older. So that was an interesting situation. 0:08:07 Franklin: Yeah. I know in the early days of desegregating some of these jobs that bathroom access was often an issue for women. Were there fully functional women’s bathrooms at the time that you started, or were they still kind of figuring that out in the buildings? Gardner: Well, they did have restrooms. I mean, it had office space in the front of the machine shop, so there were restrooms for women. But they didn’t have the shower facilities. So for the first couple years, I’d shower in the men’s shower. The guys would just, one guy would stand outside the door and I would go in and shower. That’s sort of how we did it. But then the company built me my own shower, so that was nice to have, and not have to be in the men’s restroom. Franklin: With a guard. Yeah, I imagine, that must’ve been quite an interesting experience. So you said there was kind of the offices in the front of the house. Were the offices mostly staffed by stereotypical secretary positions—is that where most of the women were, was in the front offices of the buildings? 0:09:20 Gardner: The building itself housed different occupations, unrelated to the machine shop, but yet related to safety and the estimators and the purchasers. Yeah, so it was a combination of men and women; it wasn’t just administrative. Franklin: Did you hang out or kind of form friendships with the men you worked with that carried on after—like, did you hang out primarily with machinists, or were your friends not working at Hanford? Gardner: Not working at Hanford. I had a few friends that I would do things with. And coworkers also. But when you talk about my core group of friends, it would probably be I had maybe a couple, three that I was very close to throughout my career. And others that I was close to but wouldn’t see on a regular basis outside of the job. 0:10:20 Franklin: Okay. I guess, describe for me the day, a day in a machinist—what types of things would you be machining, what kind of tasks would you be asked to do, and what kinds of operations would you be supporting? Gardner: When I first hired in, the FFTF was being built. So we did a lot of support for that. Really interesting work. We worked a lot with stainless steel. The machine shop itself had full heat treat capabilities and also a grinding room, which was rather unique, from the standpoint, a lot of machine shops may just have machining of the parts. This machine shop had the full spectrum. Which, also the apprenticeship was—I was very blessed to be a part of that, to have such a large amount of knowledge within the trade that some people don’t get. But working for the FFTF and that project and the completion of that was very unique for me, being the only breeder reactor in the United States and being a part of that. 0:11:27 Franklin: Oh, wow. And you brought something that you made on your first day, correct? Gardner: Yeah, I did. My boss said, let’s take you to a machine—which I’d never been on any—and this was on a lathe. And he just gave me a blueprint, and was able to give me the tooling and tell me how to operate the machine. He walked away, and I did this little part. It’s just a practice piece; it doesn’t have any application to it. Franklin: Oh, okay. And how long would it take to construct something like that? Gardner: Oh, maybe an hour. Franklin: And would you start from a solid piece and then machine it down? Gardner: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, okay. Gardner: Yeah. 0:12:13 Franklin: So what kind of parts were you making for the FFTF, what kinds of things did the machine shop create for the FFTF? Gardner: They have fuel pins within the FFTF and they would be bundled in these great big stainless tubes. So we would machine these stainless tubes. I don’t know how long they were, but maybe over six feet. Maybe less than that. And then inside would be small quarter-inch pins that would run the length of these inside. They would have several bundles inside this but also several parts inside the reactor. Yeah, that was just one piece, though. I mean, one part of it. We machined other things. I don’t have a good recall for all that. But it was very exciting to be a part of that. 0:13:06 Franklin: Did you need a special clearance to work in the machine shop or to be kind of manufacturing these reactor components? Gardner: Depended upon what we were machining. Some of the machinists had what’s called a Q clearance. That allowed them to be exposed to different information that we weren’t allowed to as just the regular clearance. So there were some that were able to machine more confidential things. But in general, on a day, we had a lot of certifications to the metal that went into the nuclear reactors for the fact that it had to have provisions, knowing that the metal needed to be a certain quality. So that was something that we would keep record of when we were given a job. We would document things and make sure it had the proper certifications from the manufacturer of the metal. 0:14:05 Franklin: Did that require you to test the metals at all for strength and for the amounts of various—if it was a composite, the amounts of its components? Gardner: Well, there was metal testing onsite. There were places that we could take metal for its tensile strength. And to make sure, if it didn’t have any stamped certification on it, we could use some chemicals to find out exactly what’s in it, and to know that the material is what we wanted. 0:14:38 Franklin: Interesting. And so eventually, the FFTF kind of was sidelined, right, as—and so I assume that you weren’t then working on fuel pins or the bundles anymore. So what did you do after the FFTF had ceased operations? Gardner: Well, when we moved from the nuclear to the cleanup mission, we supported that in different ways. But they actually closed our machine shop down and moved the machine shop out to the 200 Area. Franklin: Sorry, so where was the machine shop before that? 0:15:18 Gardner: In the 300 Area. Franklin: 300 Area, okay. Gardner: 328 Building. So, I’m going to guess, for 14 years I was there. And then the company—that was during the time when there were many contractors bidding for the job, so instead of it just being Westinghouse, there were three main contractors. UNC was another one; Rockwell. Then they started having more people come in and the contracting work out became a popular thing, the transition in our way of doing business. Not just with Hanford, but throughout the United States. So we moved to the 200 Area and Kaiser took over part of that. I was only out there for two years supporting the cleanup mission, but this is when the tanks were being discovered that some weren’t even marked where they were on the ground. I really don’t have a lot of knowledge about what all went on, other than they were digging up a lot of things, finding ways to pay for the area. 0:16:28 Franklin: Right, yeah, finding some history. Nice. I’m wondering if you could share your opinion on what that was like, to go from a single contractor to multi-contractor, and if you saw that as a beneficial change for Hanford operations, or—basically, how that affected you and how that affected worker morale and the scope of work that you were being asked to do. 0:16:55 Gardner: I just really have one thought on that when you asked me, and that is, because the history and the value of the employees that were there, some, not from conception, but there for a very long time that had a lot more knowledge—once they were bringing several contractors in, people would come in without any history or background knowledge. I felt that was a real critical part or piece that needed to stay consistent for the continuity of understanding the dangers or the concerns. It was taken more serious, from my standpoint, of those that had been there for a long time or had more history with the Area. So contracting work out and bringing new contractors or several contractors in, I felt, was a safety issue. 0:17:45 Franklin: Oh, interesting. Okay. That’s a really interesting point. Did you find that each contractor had its own kind of culture or corporate culture? And was it easy for employees of different contractors to work together? Gardner: There was some competition, I think, when I initially hired in between the contractors. But there were only three at that time. I guess not. I didn’t pay that close attention. 0:18:16 Franklin: Okay. And so when you got moved out to the 200 Area, what kinds of—you’re obviously not going to be manufacturing fuel pellets—or fuel rods and things. So what kind of work were you doing out there to support cleanup? Like, what kinds of things were you machining out there? Gardner: There would be tools that needed to be made, specific tools, that were unique to cleanup. So we would be manufacturing those. Franklin: Can you give me an example of a tool that’s unique to cleanup? Gardner: I can’t. [LAUGHTER] I can’t even remember those things. 0: 18:50 Franklin: Oh, okay. And how long did you stay out in the 200 Area? Gardner: Probably a year-and-a-half. Franklin: Okay. And was it the same kind of atmosphere in the 200 Area that you’d had in the 300 Area? Or was it changed? 0:19:08 Gardner: Well, the R&D world that we were in with the nuclear industry—it was just a lot different in the culture and the different things we fabricated. So when we changed out to the 200 Area, it was a big shock of having to do different types of work. Probably less R&D than it was when I worked in the 300 Area. R&D is research and development, where sometimes we do one or two things, or sometimes we just manufacture something or fabricate something to see if it’s going to work, just as a test piece. Franklin: A little more experimental. Gardner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Franklin: Like, intuitive than— 0:19:59 Gardner: But the culture was very different out in the 200 Area. The buildings were old. The building I moved into was not insulated. I had to wear—they gave us all Carhartts to wear in the wintertime. Pipes froze in the restroom. And snakes—I had a snake pass me in the building. Mice were in my coverall bag. So it just really wasn’t an environment I wanted to continue my work in. So I ended up quitting and moving over to Battelle. That was one of the best moves. I absolutely loved Westinghouse, but when they moved us out in the 200 Area, I felt like I could make a better change. So I quit and went to Battelle and worked in the environmental industry there. Franklin: Okay, and what kinds of work did you—were you still a machinist then in the environmental— Gardner: Mm-hmm, yes. Franklin: And how would you support—that seems like kind of a different mission change from what you’d be machining. So how did you support the environmental research group? 0:21:04 Gardner: I’ll just give you one example of some parts that I was working on. Battelle is worldwide in how they work with the business. There was a job that I was working on that was going to go on an airplane, filtering the air in the atmosphere in Mexico. Because the pollution was so bad there. So that was interesting to know, you know, that this job I was working on was going to be attached to an airplane that was going to be flying around Mexico. I think Mexico City, actually. We also did animal research. One example of that is when the checks that we write, everyday checks from our checkbook that has the carbon copy, when we would utilize those carbon copies—when they first were manufactured, the workers that were making these pieces of paper, or making the paper to go in our checkbooks were getting ill. So they exposed laboratory animals to this paper until they were healthy; they were not having any side effects from being around any of the particulates caused from the manufacturing. So that was one of the first projects that I worked on. I literally made, they’re called plethysmographs. They were Plexiglas tubes where they housed the mice to expose them to these things. It was hard for me, because I’m an animal lover. So that was a hard job, but it was interesting to see the application of it for the health of the people in the industry. 0:22:51 Franklin: Mm. Do you know what kinds of data was gathered from that research? Did there end up being a link between the illness and the carbon paper? Gardner: Yes, well, they already knew there was an illness just from the people that were manufacturing it originally. So all I know is they decided to change whatever went into the paper, and that did have a good impact. 0:23:15 Franklin: Oh, that’s good. So how long did you work for Battelle in the environmental research group? Gardner: For 16 years. Franklin: Oh, for 16 years. And so from—you said you went out there in ’95, and then 16 years, so 2011, or about 2010? And did you retire then— Gardner: Mm-hmm, I did. 0:23:40 Franklin: Okay. And what have you been doing—have you still been involved in the machinist industry since retirement, or how have you been keeping busy? Gardner: Well, I pretty much put my tools away. But I’m still a handywoman; I like to do projects around the house and help people with projects that need some repairs. My first year, I just enjoyed. I took a job out at Canyon Lakes golf course and worked as just a helper at a catering business there. A few times, drove the beverage cart which was lots of fun. I was raised as a golfer. That was fun for me. So just enjoying my life and making it a choice every day to explore something that I haven’t done and wasn’t able to do since I had a full-time job. 0:24:32 Franklin: Sure. Now, your bio here that Jillian took says that you went to HAMMER and were a teacher for trainings on MSDS work conditions safety and health concerns? Gardner: Yeah, for a short time, a couple years. So maybe two or three times a year, I would work at HAMMER for a week at a time. Franklin: Was that after you retired? Gardner: No, it was during the time. Franklin: Oh, okay. 0:24:57 Gardner: I actually was working at Westinghouse, and I think I continued HAMMER once, maybe, when I was at Battelle; I can’t really recall if I did or not. But it was before the new facility was built, so we were over on George Washington Way. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. That makes sense. Well, that’s great. I just have a couple more questions. Are there any ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work as a machinist? Gardner: In what way? 0:25:37 Franklin: Oh, well, I don’t know. Is there any times in which, say, an element of security or secrecy stopped you from working on a project, or you could only work on specific pieces on it because of not enough clearance or something like that? Did you ever work on a project that was very secret or kind of a need-to-know basis? Gardner: I didn’t, but there were machinists that did. You’re right, it is called a need-to-know. I remember one time they put big barriers up around the Project just so it was in compliance for the security of machining it. So, yeah, that has been a part of my career. But I wasn’t a person on the job. 0:26:27 Franklin: Okay. And was it challenging to—because you moved here during the Cold War and then—although it seems that most of your machine work was for peaceful reactors, you know, the majority of reactors at Hanford were producing plutonium which was being used for the US nuclear weapons stockpile. Did you ever feel unsure or unsafe about working at Hanford, either in a safety sense or in a larger, kind of geopolitical sense, especially as tensions were heating up in the 1980s? 0:27:10 Gardner: Not in the geopolitical sense, but as far as some of the chemicals and materials that I machined, a few years after becoming a machinist, they became classified as carcinogens. The PPE, the protective equipment that we wore, would be required or some of the chemicals were actually pulled off the shelf. So, yeah, that was a concern, because I think the invincible feeling of being young, you know. You think everything’s going to be safe working for large companies like that, and they wouldn’t expose us to things that are unsafe. But that’s not true. They did the best they could, and as things progressed and our health concerns were addressed, then, you know, they would see that some of those things needed to be looked at differently. So the government was able to classify things as carcinogens. And companies could no longer use those. Franklin: Interesting. And did that impact your work in any way? Or did you feel pretty comfortable with the measures that were addressed? 0:28:21 Gardner: I think there was resistancy because some of the materials we could only machine well with certain chemicals. When they pulled those off, we had to really be creative to find something that was just as good or settle for something that wasn’t as good and try to make the parts as well as we could. But I knew that there were health effects, even throughout my career, in my own body that I had to address from being exposed to things. And I was able to, and got it taken care of. Franklin: Oh, that’s good. So kind of a balance, then, between doing a job in the most effective way, but also making sure that it’s safe in terms of having your worker safety protected. Gardner: Mm-hmm. 0:29:15 Franklin: Well, great, and my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War and afterwards during cleanup? Gardner: I feel that our government was doing a wonderful job keeping our nation safe, and that was their priority in creating Hanford, protecting us. The residual, while being, it is very nasty and the ramifications of all the buried things is a very difficult piece, the reasons behind it were very genuine and ultimately for our country. Franklin: Hmm. Okay, great. Did you want to show any of the things that you brought with you? Gardner: I don’t. Franklin: Okay, not a problem. Well, maybe if they’re—if you wouldn’t mind, maybe we could take them and digitize some of them and then we’ll put them with your interview when it goes online and post the pictures. Gardner: Yes, I brought newspapers that would come out monthly. I’m not certain if it was monthly or weekly, from Westinghouse. And they’re fun to look back, probably more for me. But, on the other hand, yes, that’d be great if you could digitize it. Franklin: Great, well, thank you so much, Peggy, I really appreciate it. Gardner: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:30:42 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9982kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Westinghouse 200 Area Battelle HAMMER Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 26 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peggy Gardner Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Peggy Gardner relocated to the Hanford area when she followed her parents and started out working as a gas station attendant/mechanic/wrecker driver before accepting a machinist position with Westinghouse. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/02/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F46718f8d2b200c1c3b4ec42c71009a29.JPG 7f4ae434c4a7a90a4a89297e7d171285 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Cliff Groff Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Cliff Groff on August 10, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Cliff about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Cliff Groff: G-R-O-F-F as in Frank is the last name. Franklin: Okay. And your first name? Groff: C-L-I-F-F as in Frank. Franklin: Okay, great, thanks, Cliff. So, tell me, how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. 0:00:38 Groff: Well, I came to the area because I came to work for the newspaper here. I came here in 1966. And I worked for the paper for approximately nine years. Franklin: And which paper was that? Groff: The Tri-City Herald. Franklin: Okay, great. Groff: But don’t hold that against me, please. People don’t like the Herald for different reasons. But I did work on it. I was hired as the Sunday editor of the paper. So it means I worked on the news desk all those years. In fact, we moved here from Santa Maria, California, where I was the news editor of that paper. That’s why I got hired. Franklin: Okay. 0:01:26 Groff: For a couple of years, I did some odd jobs. Principally in PR, public relations. And then in 1977, I got hired by Arco to work out at Hanford as a specialist to write operating procedures. That’s what I did. During that 17 years there, I became not only a writer of them; I became a manager of them. When I retired, I was a senior engineering writer, that’s what I was. Franklin: Okay. And so what kind of procedures did these cover? 0:02:21 Groff: Well, what we worked with—we were hired—I was hired in 1977, a year after McCluskey got injured in the Dash-4 project, when he had the americium and acid explosion. And everything was shut down, and they determined that the operating procedures were not—that the engineers couldn’t write them very well. And they wanted to hire people with a background in journalism and English, which I have. So that’s why I was hired. In the job, we would interview operators, process engineers, and supervisors, and we converted standard operating procedures into what were called job performance aids—JPAs. This was based on human factors engineering, which came out of what the Air Force did with their training of their pilots. So I learned a lot about human factor engineering and actually took a lot of classes later on that the company had me do. 0:03:48 Franklin: Okay. So basically, if I can summarize this right, your job was to kind of translate what the engineers—how the engineers felt the process should be done to the process that would actually do the process, because there was kind of a breakdown in communication before, between the engineers and the technical employees. Groff: That’s right. The engineer would write long, essay-type instructions. My job was to convert and write in short declarative sentences, called command language. We had to use very few verbs—we had a verb list. So that’s what we had to instruct the operators to know what we were talking about. And it worked. We converted thousands of SOPs into JPAs. And then they found that the—we had illustrations, very extensive. So then we converted the JPAs into P-O-Ps, POPs, plant operating procedures. So that’s what we were doing when I retired back in 2000. I don’t know what they’re doing now. Franklin: Do you have an example of a successful SOP to JPA that stands out in your mind? 0:05:17 Groff: You know, I worked at all the Tank Farms and I managed a group of engineering writers. We probably did thousands of them. We had to deal with—I worked at PUREX, for example, at the head end control. We had to deal with the panels, that’s what we did. We had to instruct the operators into what the buttons and the bells and whistles meant. Tank Farms, same thing. Also we did the—I worked also at the processes where they converted—well, let me see. At this point, I’m confused, so do you want to stop the camera for a minute? And I can remember something here. Isn’t that awful? I can’t remember. I worked at all the plants; that’s all I can tell you about. Franklin: Sure, sure, that’s fine. Are we ready to roll again? Groff: Oh, is it stopped? Oh, that’s good. Hungate: [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: We’re good. We can edit that out; don’t worry. So in doing this, did you have any background in the technical knowledge behind these processes? How— 0:06:45 Groff: Well, I had to learn on the job. I did a lot of studying. Well, in high school and college I took a lot of science. I wasn’t a science major. I took additional classes at CBC. I took classes in pre-calculus math, chemistry, so I could understand the processes. And I knew how to read blueprints which I had to read a lot of those to understand the processes. So it was, for me—besides I was training other people, I was learning myself about it. Franklin: Oh, wow. Groff: You know, one interesting thing, I was thinking about something. You know we got this eclipse coming up? Franklin: Yeah. 0:07:40 Groff: Everybody knows about that. Well, there was one, I think, in 1975 or ’76, somewhere, we had an eclipse. And this very good friend of mine who worked for me, we walked out on the coal pile to watch the eclipse that was then. So I think that’s one interesting thing that we did. My office was very near the coal plant. I know that there were coal-fired plants at both East and West. My office was located in East. Franklin: Oh, wow. And how big was this division that you were in? Groff: The division? Franklin: Yeah, or your group, the people that-- 0:08:29 Groff: Well, we were highly—there was a lot of, oh, what I call—stop again. Bureaucracy. Very bureaucracy. And I was in research and engineering division, and that was broken down into different process engineers that worked at the different plants. My group, basically, was about 40 people. We consisted of engineering writers, illustrators, secretaries, and the clerk that took care of that. Once we wrote them, we had to have them test it, called user tests. We had to have all sorts of sign-offs, quality assurance, as I recall. The plant manager has to sign off on our procedures. They could not be issued without half-a-dozen signatures on that, including mine, as the engineering writer. 0:09:45 Franklin: What was the most challenging aspect of this work? Groff: Well, we had to know from—the Department of Energy had massive volumes of information and one of the things that we had to study was the SARPs. These were when we had to ship information, these were special—damn. I didn’t know you were going to ask that. Franklin: You said they were SARPs? Groff: Yeah, there were SARs and SARPs and we had to learn what those meant. They were rules written by the Department of Energy, and we had to incorporate our knowledge of SARPs into operating procedures when we were going to ship them. So that was the most challenging for me, was learning the bureaucratic system of the Department of Energy. Franklin: Right. Yeah, I bet. 0:10:54 Groff: And our operating procedures, we had guidebooks that told us how to prepare them, all the different parts of it. The introductions—we had to incorporate safety features into it for the operators. There was a lot of training we had to do that had to be trained as we did in radiation and criticality and alarms. We had to know how to suit up to go into rad zones. I did, I knew how to do that. That was a long time ago. We had to learn how to put on the suits, especially to go into the canyon building upstairs. We had to have a mask on us, gloves. And that was a very challenging thing, too, because I had to go up and observe things so I could write my operating procedures. That was just one aspect of it. 0:11:59 Franklin: Were you allowed to take recording instruments in, like a tape recorder or a pencil and paper? Groff: Well, paper and pencil is just about the main thing I had to do. Because you had to worry about if something got radiated, you’d have to lose it. One of the things you didn’t want to do is wear your wedding ring. Because if it got radiated, it’s goodbye wedding ring. They’d get rid of it, being low level waste then. Franklin: Did that happen enough that that was a real worry for people? 0:12:35 Groff: Well, it must’ve been, because they talked about it. But it’s been a while since I thought about suiting up. We were trained every year on how to do that, how to suit up to go into a rad zone. And going into the Tank Farms, we had to wear things over our shoes and laboratory coats, and as I recall we wore things over our hair. It was very interesting, all those—we had to suit up for the different process buildings. And I worked at all of them. And all the Tank Farms. 0:13:22 Franklin: Wow. So you really got to travel pretty much all over the Site. Groff: In my job, yes, I was everywhere on the Plant. Franklin: What kind of clearance did you have? 0:13:33 Groff: Ultimately, I had a Q clearance, was the high level one. That helped me get into a couple of buildings. One of the plants, we stored plutonium. I had to go in there to do some assessments and I had to go in and I had an armed guard with me. I had radiation protection people, and other managers. I had to go in there and it took about nine or ten people to escort me. And, we had what I call Z Plant, Plutonium Finishing Plant. I had to have a clearance to go in there and observe and study the gloveboxes which is where they did the plutonium work. Now, these plants I think are mostly torn down now, decommissioned. But when I worked there, we were actually producing plutonium. PUREX was actually working. So it was interesting work for me. 0:14:45 Franklin: Great. Are there any other ways in which security or secrecy impacted your work? Groff: No. Franklin: Okay. Groff: No. I was examined—well, when I first went there I had to fill out a personnel security form, a PSQ, for the FBI to investigate my life. And they had to check my life all the way back to when I was in college. And when I was in service, which I did for two years, active duty. I had to remember where my duty stations were and my eight years in reserve. So they had to check everything. Plus, I had to name my relatives, my family members to check into, including my mother-in-law and my father-in-law. So it was very extensive. But I was proud to get that FBI clearance. 0:15:45 Franklin: I would imagine so. I want to move, now, to—and thank you for sharing so much about your work. I want to move to something that I think is really interesting, and that’s the creation of the Hanford Family and your involvement. And I’m wondering if we could start from the beginning of that. How did—what was the Hanford family and how was it started, why was it started? Groff: Well, we started because there was an awful lot of activity against us. Organizations like HEAL out of Spokane and of course in Seattle they had the organization that Gerald Pollet had, America Northwest or something. They were always pounding on us. And we wanted some recognition that what we were doing was good for the country. And that’s why we organized it. I think we felt that we were besieged. I know I felt that way. And I felt we should fight back. And for about five years, that’s what we did. We organized and our leader was Mike Fox, who was an incredible engineer. We had a lot of other help; Larry Haler, for example; Bob Drake, who’s a county commissioner; me; Ruth Nelson managed our office. And we just sort of grew and we just sort of started, we sold caps that said Proud of Hanford and our bumper strips and things. 0:17:41 Franklin: What were the ways that these groups like HEAL, which stands for Hanford Environmental Action League, right? Is that— Groff: That’s exactly what it was. Franklin: What were the ways that HEAL and Gerald Pollet’s group that you felt— Groff: Heart of America Northwest. Franklin: Heart of America Northwest, that’s right. 0:18:03 Groff: Well, they would constantly get in the media and write stories about us. So what we felt was, we were going to have to get in the media and rebut or refute what they were saying, and that’s what we did. I remember one time we went to Spokane and Wanda Munn, who was interviewed by—well, I forget which—it was one of the channels up there. We were there to support her in a debate. And then a bunch of us went to Seattle to also go to a debate. There was always movements to close us down. That’s what they wanted to do. Shut everything down, oppose the Hanford Project. And like I say, we felt that we were under siege. We only lasted for about five years, but we did communicate our message a lot, wrote letters to the editors, raised money, we had rallies. A couple times we went to the state capitol and had a rally there, and I was proud to be the master of ceremonies and introduce everybody. And we did get in, I think we did get in to see Booth Gardner, who was the governor at that time. And we were always going—people that opposed us—Wyden, Representative Wyden of Oregon, did not like us, was always coming out against the Hanford Project for something. And Brock Adams was the senator as I recall at that time. We tried to get these people to support us instead of constantly opposing us. So that’s why we got organized. 0:20:10 It was five years of pretty exciting times, being able to speak in favor of things like PUREX, the N Reactor, which we thought was a valuable resource, dual action, dual purpose. N Reactor produced plutonium and power. Which was your pictures—President Kennedy was here when that was operating. He was here to speak on that. So we were proud of what we were doing, and that’s why we say we are proud of Hanford. Of course, now everything’s gone out there, and that’s the way it—you know. As I have always known, all good things have to come to an end. And that did. 0:21:03 Franklin: What did you feel that you accomplished with the Hanford Family? Groff: Well, I think we accomplished giving our message out. And a couple other things follow after that. Ray Isaacson and I organized the Energy Communities Alliance, which is still in effect. We got together, we met in Denver with people from Denver. There was a nuclear project there. North Carolina. Franklin: Denver is Rocky Flats, right? Groff: Rocky Flats. We met with people from there and organized that, the ECA. And I was proud to be one of the first vice presidents of it. 0:21:49 Franklin: And what did the ECA do? What was its mission and what did it— Groff: Again, it was to get the message out that energy—that the cities can defend themselves. That’s essentially what we did. and we organized Benton County and Kennewick, Richland, was in that, as I recalled. Benton City. And that’s what we did, was to organize a group. We were advocating for nuclear power. That’s what we did. And we were different cities that were part of the Manhattan Project originally. We felt that was an important message to keep going with. So that’s what we did. Franklin: And how long were you involved with the ECA? 0:22:46 Groff: Oh, just a couple of more years. I was on the Kennewick City Council when I went back there. Ray Isaacson was on the Benton County Commission and he represented Benton County. I basically represented the cities when we organized the ECA. And I understand they’re still in effect today even. Franklin: Yeah, they’re actually meeting in Richland later this month. Groff: Yeah, I heard that. I’m very pleased with that. Franklin: Yeah, I think a lot of the attention now has shifted to the Manhattan Project National Historical Park and how the cities— Groff: Yeah, the B Reactor. Part of that. Franklin: Yeah, and how the cities can support that. 0:23:27 Groff: But I think that’s what we did. That was what we were trying to do was say, we did something for this country. And we’re proud of that. We used to argue with people about World War II and the bomb. You know, well, in my case, personally, it saved my dad’s life. He was in the Air Force, and a lot of men had to go from Europe to fight in the Pacific. And I think it saved hundreds of thousands of American lives and Japanese. We used to debate that with people on the peace—the people who were, what I call a peacenik. I don’t mean to be insulting. Franklin: No, no, that’s fine. Groff: Anyway, that was my personal opinion. 0:24:18 Franklin: Sure. Sorry, excuse me. In your opinion, what do you think—why do you think people misunderstood Hanford? Groff: Well, I think it was a lot of things. 12 Island—things happening at the other reactors, like 12-mile Island, which my understanding is that it simply proved the backup systems worked. And Chernobyl. Well, I read a lot about that. And my understanding is that Russian engineers took out the backup systems and they were testing something when that happened. I am a retired member of the American Nuclear Society, and that’s where I got a lot of information on the technical side. I’m not an engineer. I was a journalist, a writer. I knew how to do good English. I can string words together. One of the things I said, the most difficult thing is, people have trouble just producing a simple, declarative sentence. And that’s what we had to do in our operating procedures. Anyway, I think we did good things. Franklin: Do you think those skills helped you in your work with the Hanford Family? Your journalistic skills and— 0:25:50 Groff: Oh, I think so. That, and I was apolitical science minor. And of course, later on, some things happened. We organized, we were part of the organizing of the Hanford Speakers Bureau. Mike Fox was a big part of that. I was in that. I had to have extra training to be a part of it, and I would actually go out on behalf of Hanford, the Project, to talk about radiation, waste management. I was proud of the things that we did. I think back on it, and I think we did good things. Of course, Hanford is gone. And that’s, like I said, all good things come to an end. Franklin: Was there ever any points of agreement that you had, that Hanford Family had with groups like HEAL or Heart of America Northwest? 0:26:54 Groff: I don’t think so. I think we fundamentally disagreed with them. They didn’t like what we were doing. We felt like we were doing the right thing. When I think about it, I know the newspaper in Spokane always supported HEAL’s comments. The newspapers in Seattle were always working with Gerald Pollet’s organization. Of course, now he’s in the legislature, as is Larry Haler, which I think is interesting. Franklin: Yeah. Groff: Both Haler and I ran for the city council in Richland in 1989. He won in Richland; I won in Kennewick. I served two terms and I’m pleased with that. It was on the basis of my work in Kennewick that I helped to organize the ECA. Franklin: Oh, shoot, I had a question and just slipped out of my mind. Groff: I hope I’m making some sense. 0:28:03 Franklin: Oh, yeah, very much so. When did the Hanford Family—well, actually, before I ask about the end, you mentioned earlier that you did fundraising. What did you use those funds for? Groff: Well, we had an office that we opened up on George Washington Way. We bought office equipment. We had to have a telephone line; we had to pay for that. And that’s where much of the money went for. And of course we would buy caps, have caps produced. We’d sell that to raise more money. At the end of it, we gave money—we gave furnishings to an organization known as the Columbia Basin Shrine Club. And I believe that much of the money, I think, went to the American Nuclear Society, the local chapter. To the best of my memory; that’s what I recall. Franklin: Sure. Were you supported at all by the government—by the Hanford contractors? Groff: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you know how they felt about the Hanford Family? Formally or informally? Groff: I don’t think they cared one way or the other about what we were doing. Or if they did, they didn’t tell us. 0:29:34 Franklin: How did the Hanford Family come to an end? Groff: Well, we just sort of ended. We just sorted of stopped. We didn’t do anything else. For a couple of years, a bunch of us, we’d get together who were left, we’d get together for lunch. Everybody now has pretty much passed away. Like Mike’s gone. And people like Ruth Nelson, who was a key player in this when she ran the office. She was there every day, managing the office. Franklin: Mm-hmm. You kept working at Hanford after the Hanford Family kind of stopped being active, right? And so you worked, during the ‘90s, during that—right after the Tri-Party Agreement was signed, and the focus on Hanford shifted. Groff: That was one thing. We were asked to support the Tri-Party Agreement, which we did. In fact, I recall a few of us did drive to Pendleton, Oregon and there was a meeting there and we did support that. We did ask to support that. Yeah. 0:30:58 Franklin: How did your work change after the Tri-Party Agreement, your Site work? Groff: Well, for me, nothing. Franklin: Really? Groff: No. I did the same thing. I started writing operating procedures, creating manuals, information manuals. And that’s what I ended up doing through three different contractors. Arco and Rockwell and Westinghouse. And also, one thing I was thinking about, when I was at Hanford, I was on the safety commission that we had. I was chairman of it, and I produced some interesting safety films for video tape, which I enjoyed doing. I got to do a lot of stuff. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Groff: With my acting ability. I was in the Richland Players at that time. I was on the council. And was very active just being—doing a lot of stuff, getting to perform. Franklin: You said training films. These were for the contractors? Training films for— Groff: Yes it was. I did three of them that were all safety-oriented. I naturally performed in all three of them. And they were produced at Battelle. Franklin: Okay. 0:32:28 Groff: The company gave me some money, about, oh, $8,000 to $10,000. That’s what it cost to do. And I wrote the scripts, and we went out, picked locations, and filmed them. So I wish I had copies of those left, but I don’t. I enjoy watching me in them. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I think we—I’ll have to check our collection for those. It’d be fun to see if I can spot you. Groff: Yeah, there were three safety films. What I was in was the accident prevention council, the APC. I was a member and then I was promoted to chairman of it. And as part of that, I actually attended safety meetings with the president of the company. At that time, it was Paul Lorenzini, was our president. And I really liked him. He was—In one film, if I can retain this, the first one I did, I did a pratfall. Which I was stage trained to do. We filmed that at the Federal Building. And when we showed him, his safety people, he said, well, weren’t you injured doing that? I said, no, sir, I enjoyed doing it. Didn’t hurt me a bit. Well, I think he thought I was a little wacky, but that’s—being a little actor like that, a ham, he enjoyed that. So they had me do two more of those. 0:34:10 Franklin: Oh, that’s great. How did the mood of the community change when the production was shut down at Hanford and it moved to cleanup? Groff: Well, I honestly don’t—I don’t know if I can answer that. Franklin: Okay. Groff: I guess the people just accepted that’s what was going to happen. We were decommissioning and things. I felt bad about it. I thought we should’ve been doing more. 0:34:46 Franklin: When you were on the Kennewick City Council, and you served two terms, you engaged in a fight over wind turbines. Groff: Oh, yes, I did. That was something that—some of the money that we had helped fund that. It was about—there was a proposal to put wind turbines on Rattlesnake Mountain. That annoyed me, because I thought wind turbines were just totally ugly. And I did a lot of research calling—there were several sites in California: Altamont Pass, Tehachapi. And I would talk to people. I got a whole bunch of information, technical information, on why we shouldn’t have wind turbines. And I was in debates around the city and I won that one. I went, that’s one thing I’m proud of. We did stop the installation of wind turbines on Rattlesnake Mountain. Now I understand that the Indian tribes are dealing with that now. I guess they feel—it’s a good place for them. But I used to look up there at that mountain, you know, the highest—3,000 feet, the highest point without vegetation. I thought that was kind of interesting. And why ruin it with wind turbines? So I did, I led that fight. 0:36:19 Franklin: Great. And you retired, you said, in 1999, 2000? Somewhere in there. Groff: 2000, yeah. I worked 17 years there. Franklin: Great, well, we’ve covered just about everything. I just wanted to ask you just a couple more questions. So Chernobyl, obviously, was a major event worldwide but it also had some pretty big ramifications here in Tri-Cities. Groff: Well, they tried to compare it to the N Reactor. That’s one of the things that were used against N Reactor, and 12-Mile Island. 0:37:05 Franklin: And how did you—how did the Hanford Family and others deal with that? I’m wondering if you could kind of describe the dialogue or the kind of battle? Groff: Well, actually, we dealt with it—we were members of the American Nuclear Society. All of us were, kind of had dual memberships. We felt that the ANS did come out with a lot of good information on what actually occurred at Chernobyl and 12-Mile Island. Those were major, major events. I think it hurt this area. Franklin: Did you find the public to be pretty accepting of that information? 0:37:48 Groff: I think so. I think the Tri-Cities, we were in a lot of newspaper stories here and in Seattle, Spokane. And we were on TV a lot, too. Larry and I and Mike were interviewed a lot, talking about our side of it. So I think—and I think we had community support. They’re the ones who would come out to the rallies. Once we got people who came out to the rally when we had it. I think we actually had two of them when we went to the state capitol in Olympia. Well, we had to get some busses, three buses. And that’s where a lot of the money went, to hire the buses. We had a lot of—it was excitement for people. It was for me. I’ll admit it. I was excited. I felt like we were doing something. We were part of something. An important part of something. 0:39:57 Franklin: Yeah. I kind of—off that statement, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Groff: Well, I think we did our duty. I think we were important to the country. I think that’s the main thing. Hanford contributed in history as part of the Manhattan Project, and I think people should realize that what we did was vital to the nation, to the nation’s security. I think that’s the important thing. We were important to the security. And that’s why I was proud to work there. 0:39:46 Franklin: Yeah. Well, Cliff, thank you so much for coming and sharing about your career and your work with the Hanford Family. I really appreciate it. Groff: Well, thank you for the opportunity to do that. Franklin: Yeah. Groff: Like I said, I hope I made sense. Franklin: Yeah, no, you have. It’s been a really wonderful interview. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we conclude? Groff: No, I can’t—all I can say is thank you, and thank Wazzu for doing this. Well, I think I mentioned, I was an on-air talent a long time ago for fundraising for Washington State University, and I’m proud of that. Very proud. Franklin: I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention that we’re generously funded by the Department of Energy through MSA. So, I want to thank them too. Groff: Okay. Franklin: Well, great. [VIDEO CUTS] 0:40:45 Groff: SAR is safety analysis report. We had to incorporate those into our procedures. Franklin: And what was that you were saying earlier about the evaporator crystals? Groff: Yeah, we had evaporator crystallizers. It was some of the last projects that I recall working on. There was one in East, one in West. Yeah, evaporator crystallizers, that was— Franklin: And how did you help with those? Groff: Writing procedures for the operators. I remember going out and climbing up the stairs. They were—the stairs were these three where you looked through like grates. You know what a grate is? Franklin: Mm-hmm. 0:41:39 Groff: You look down. Me with my agoraphobia, I did that, climbing around those buildings. You know those process buildings were 1250 feet long, about five stories deep, and I could walk up and down those stairs and it wouldn’t bother me a bit. Franklin: Wow. And just a minute earlier off-camera, you mentioned that you were the only non-engineer at that time to pass the engineering test. 0:42:13 Groff: Yeah. That was—in our group, the process control engineers, all of us had to take Phase I. Phase II was they had to study a plant that they’re working at, like B Plant was just where I worked out, WESF, PUREX, C Plant, T Plant, U Plant. The test was on all the aspects of that plant. And I picked that for B Plant WESF and passed it. And I got a certificate, I’m the only one—the only engineering writer that did that, that actually studied enough about it to know what went into that plant. Franklin: Wow. That’s really impressive. Groff: It was impressive and I—my manager at that time, Blaine Barton, who was the group manager, he told the guys, he said, you know, here I am a journalism guy, and I did that. And he thought it was quite an impressive achievement. And I didn’t mention it, but she did. But at home, I still got the certificate. It’s been framed. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Well, Tom, thank you for that question. Hungate: Yeah. Franklin: That was a good one. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:43:37 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9987 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview The Tri-City Herald ARCO Tank Farms PUREX Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 58 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Cliff Groff Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Cliff Groff was a reporter for the Tri-City Herald before becoming a writer for the Hanford Site. He started writing as an operations procedure specialist and retired as the senior engineering writer. In addition to working as a writer for the Hanford Site Mr. Groff also served two terms on the Kennewick City Council and was a member of the Richland Players. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08/10/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8d98d6cd831eab3e0ea30e58a8baf8be.JPG 75a0accb0e39a4826303cbf0441b58c2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lito Ines Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Tom Hungate: Okay. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history with Joselito Ines on November 6, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I wil be talking with Lito about his experiences working for the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Lito Ines: Full name is Joselito Ines. J-O-S-E-L-I-T-O. Last name, Ines, I-N-E-S. And I go by Lito. Franklin: Great, thanks, Lito. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. 0:00:35 Ines: well, it was my main background was hotel/motel management. A lot of my—that’s when I was pretty young, in my teens. I was approached by all my best friends to go and work at Hanford, because they said they pay more, and less hours. So I did. I signed up for the apprentice program for the operating engineers, local 370. That’s how I started with working out at Hanford at the 200 Area, as an apprentice heavy equipment operator. Franklin: Heavy equipment operator, okay. Did you need any particular background or training to do that? Or did they kind of just take you in the apprentice program at the ground level? 0:01:27 Ines: Yeah. The apprentice program is usually you have to take an aptitude test to make sure you know how to read, write, add, subtract. [LAUGHTER] You know, that kind of stuff. I mean, you just can’t get in there. And what I did is on that year, in ’79, early ’79, there was about 2,000 people that applied for this apprentice program, and there’s only ten people that’s going to make it. So I knew I didn’t have a chance, because my background is something else. And then I talked to everybody, and everybody was in construction and military and farm. Nothing. And for some reason, I got up in the top five, just on aptitude. Because military gets a discount. [LAUGHTER] And I didn’t have that either. But I made it to the top five. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. I want to rewind just a little bit. How did you come to the Tri-Cities area? When did you come to the area? Ines: To the area. Well, my grandfather started a farm here in Kennewick in 1950. So in 1950, my family was the first Filipino that settled here in the Tri-City area. Franklin: Wow. Ines: The farm that he had was in Kennewick. It’s called Canyon Lakes now. But that used to be our farm. My father decided to come because he passed away for a funeral. So when he came here in ’65, he decided he wants to stay here. And so two years later on—because he had to go on the immigration process and things like that—and two years we came in here, in ’67, and I was 15. Immigration there was pretty lax. So as soon as we got here, we got a green card right off the bat. 0:03:24 Franklin: So you came here from the Philippines. Ines: From Philippines, yup. Franlkin: Oh, okay, so your grandfather was already here, but your father and you were in the Philipines until 1967. Ines: Yeah, my grandfather actually came to the United States in 1923. Franklkni: Oh, wow. Ines: During the year where they took a lot of Asian, they took Japanese, Korean, I think even some Portuguese. The Chinese were already here because of the railroad. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. Ines: But these are all the agriculture because what they did is they—the United States figured out that this group of people are good in growing sugar cane and pineapple. That’s why they all went to Hawaii first. That’s how he got here. Franklin: Okay. Ines; And then of course, they were in Hawaii and then they went to California. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Ines: And then they started the revolution for the union workers. The Filipinos started that, not the Spanish people. And then from there he moved to Union Gap. Then he came here in 1950. Franklin: Oh, okay, cool. And then your family, you and your family were in the hotel business until ’75— Ines: No. Franklin: Oh, no? Ines: Just me. Franklin: Oh, just you. Ines: I was in the hotel—my dad was an architect here at Hanford. Franklin: Oh, really? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: When did your dad start working at Hanford? Ines: Well, when we became citizens. Because at that time you had to be a citizen to work at Hanford. So he tried and applied here before ’71. That’s when we got all our citizenship. And they all hired him, but then they found out he wasn’t a citizen. So we had to wait until ’71. So he became a citizen, all of us, in ’71, and that’s when he started. But I didn’t start till later on. Franklin: And what did your dad do for Hanford again? Ines: He was a senior architect here at Hanford. Franklin: Okay. So I assume he had gone to school for that back in the Philippines? Ines: Yes. He was a—actually had two things in the Philippines. He was an architect and a patent examiner. So he worked for the government up there for the patent office. Franklin: Okay. And what were some of your dad’s duties as senior architect at— Ines: Well, they just build all the structures here for the Hanford Project, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. And then you waited—it wasin ’79 then that you came to work at—and you worked for JA Jones? Ines: JA Jones was the first company I worked for at the 200 Area. Franklin: Right,a nd they were one of the major— Ines: At that time. Franklin: contractor—construction contractors, right? Ines: At that time, yes. Franklin: At that time. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: So kind of like walk me through a typical day for a heavy equipment operator. 0:06:15 Ines: Well, the first thing we’d do at Hanford, you know, as everybody knows, it’s probably the safest place to work when it comes to safety. Because that’s all they think about, is safety. So we have our safety meeting, usually consists of at least half-an-hour. Because at that time, we all meet together, all the different crafts. And all the different crafts have different duties and different tasks. SO we talked about everybody’s safety topic for that day, what they’re going to be doing and what kind of safety, or accident they could get into so we could talk about it before they get in there. And then after that, then they split us up and then the boss will tell us, this is where you’re going, this is what you’re going to run, and this is what we’re going to be doing. And you’re going to be working with this kind of craft. Because my craft at Hanford was just a support group. Because I normally worked for a certain craft. I used my machine to do the lifting, whatever it is, for them. Running cranes, I have to move things around for them and things like that. Franklin: Okay. And do you primarily worked—early on you worked in the 200 East and 200 West areas? Ines: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Did you know of any other Filipinos working for Hanford at the time? Or— Ines: No, just my family. Just like I said, we were the first Filipino family here in the Tri-Cities. [LAUGHTER] I mean, growing up, we were it. You know? So if you say, hey, do you know those Filipino family? That’s us! [LAUGHTER] Franklin; What other—you mentioned that the first thing you’d do would be the safety meeting with other crafts. What other kinds of crafts were represented? Ines: Well, they had plumbers, they had carpenters, they had laborers, they have ironworkers, sheet metal workers, insulators. I don’t know what else if I missed. Yeah, I think that’s— Franklin: And what kind of structures did you—do you have any examples of any specific structures that you helped put up or helped support the construction of? Ines: Well, a lot of the buildings we built was in support of the old buildings. You know, because in those years, all the reactors and all those other—it’s already built. So the only thing we were building is we were building sometimes more buildings for the new people, office people, engineers that come in so they have a place to work. Or laboratory for the scientists to work on. And a lot of the things I did, too, in those years was digging up the Tank Farms. Because in that years, we were building a lot of Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ines: So we were building a lot of—digging a lot of those, and that’s where we find a lot of old—[LAUGHTER]—old things that’s not in the record! Franklin: Oh, okay. I’m wondering if we could talk about—can we talk about that a little bit? Like, what kinds of— Ines: Well, sometimes we’d find like vaults or things. I mean, cans that’s not labeled and then we’d always have, we call it an RCT, someone to see if there’s any radi—and most of the time they go out there and the scale would just go, brr! [LAUGHTER] And we don’t know what it is. And then they’d look at their history, see if there’s anything written. Of course there’s none. And then what they do, is we can’t touch anything, so they’d have to call somebody, if they’re still alive, that worked in that area. And then they’d come down—[LAUGHTER] So all these 90-year-old people. [LAUGHTER] They all go in there, and they’re kind of like, yeah, I remember I dug that, and we buried this and that. But you know. That was it. [LAUGHTER] But we’d find all kinds of stuff. One time we were digging a big hole for the tank, and we had a clamdigger and my RCT was sitting on the bank. It was a deep hole. And I was down there, because one of my jobs was to make sure that the elevation was right, we don’t go too deep. And this clam bucket, it’s attached to an old—well, in those times, our machines were really old. [LAUGHTER] And it’s a clam bucket that opens up and then he drops that and then when he picks it up, it closes and brings out the dirt. It’s the old machine. Now they don’t—all, everything’s hydraulic. So one time I was standing there and all of the sudden he dropped that thing and he hit something solid, like dunk! [LAUGHTER] I looked, I go, ho, that thing go! And then I looked at that—the RCT was on the top of the slop. He stood up, he looked at his Geiger and he started running! And I said, hold it! What is this? Am I supposed to run, too? And I said, come on, you guys, let’s get out of here! Because I guess they buried it. And he was on top, and this was in the hole. And it buried his needle. So he said, go! And then of course he sounded the alarm and then of course all of this Hanford Patrol, I mean, everybody—the whole place was packed, and they shut the whole thing down. And just like I said, they don’t know what’s in there, because it’s supposed to be clean. That’s why we’re digging. So the same old scenario; they had to call somebody who’s about 90 years old and say do you remember what’s in there? And that’s the same thing it is. He’s in the thing, he goes, yeah, we dug that thing and we put something in there. But yeah it’s like a vault or something. But he doesn’t know what’s in it. Because most of the time the only one that knows is whoever the head dudes. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, the other guys would just bury the stuff. Ines: Yeah! They told them to bury that thing in there. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: There’s a lot of stuff out there. I worked at that 618-10. Franklin: I was just about to ask you aobut that, yeah. Ines: I mean, I knew that’s what they were dumping—they’re dumping that all over the place. Franklin: Right, and 618-10 was trying to take care of that stuff that had been left out there and not really well-documented. Ines: Yeah, they’re not documented. The thing I did there, the last project I did is I built an area where they can practice on how to dig these cans. The reason why is, if you open these cans accidentally, it explodes and it gives out gas, and it gives out flames. They don’t know what’s in those cans. That’s the worst part about it. They don’t know what emits. It could be deadly poison or just radioactive; they don’t have a clue. That’s what 618-10. But the other job that I just did out there was an experimental thing at 324 Building. If you guys have heard about it; it’s the most highly deadliest building out there at Hanford. Franklin: Yeah, and that’s just up here in the 300 Area. Ines: [LAUGHTER] Yeah! Not too far! Franklin: And that’s the one that’s still up, right? Because they haven’t— Ines: They can’t. Franklin: --figured out yet—yeah. Ines: Yeah, they can’t, bevause if you go in there, like, if you open the door, you’re probably dead. That’s how hot it is. They call it an IDLH building—immediate death to life and health. So if you open that, you’re dead. Franklin: Wow, I’ve never heard that acronym before. What is it, ID— Ines: LH. Franklin: IDLH. Okay. Ines: Immediate Death to Health. [LAUGHTER] 14:12 Franklin: Doesn’t sound good. Ines: Immediate Death to Life and Health, that’s what it was, yeah. Franklin: To life and health. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Wow. Ines: Yeah. And the thing of that, what we were doing is, we were doing the experimental stage of how to get to it, and eventually we’re going to do everything robotics. So that’s supposed to be a five-year job for us to experiment and do the, you know, everything in robotics with the screen andeverything. But everything failed. [LAUGHTER] All of our experiments failed. We were there for about six months, and of course, those were all engineering. See, everything at Hanford is budget-related, whether the government gave you, this is for this, and that for that. So the engineering budget was done, and they all failed. So they laid us off—[LAUGHTER]—because we had all the money to do the experiment for five years—and gave it back to engineering. But I think they just started. I think—yeah, I can’t remember who’s doing it. I think it’s Apollo and something. It was in the paper. Franklin: And they’re using robotics to go inside the building. Ines: Eventually, when we go, when we get there. Right now they’re just starting, just prepping the area. Franklin: Oh, right. Yeah. That’s really interesting that you mentioned that they had kind of bring these older retired guys out to explain what’s in these stuff that you would find, because it kind of sounds like making them an ad hoc oral history with them of, like, what’d you do when you buried these things out here? Ines: Exactly. That’s basically what they asked. And of course, we had the Native Americans out there, too, so if we dig up any kind of bones or— Franklin: Did you witness that? Did that happen while you were working in heavy equipment? Ines: You know, I ran into one of them, but he was out at Hanford. He was just across the river. We were doing a bike path. [LAUGHTER] And all of the sudden, the skeletons started popping out. Of course, you know the American Indians used to bury their dead next to the river. Franklin: Right. Ines: So we couldn’t do an excavation because every time we’d do something, you know, they’re coming out. I think it’s from—I don’t know what the reason why. They’re just popping out. So finally they said, well, can’t dig anymore. What you’re going to have to do is you’re just going to have to go on top of them. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what we did! It’s amazing. I don’t know why they didn’t at least excavate it and move it or do something. But it’s Native American Indians; they have different things that they do. Franklin: Yeah. I imagine you would’ve had an archeologist on staff when you were doing a lot of these projects. Ines: Yes, always. We have an archeologist and—there’s another department up there, they just sit there. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know what kind of job they have. They said, yeah, that’s our job! WE sit there and watch you guys, make sure you guys don’t dig out anything. And another one—oh, I think it’s environmentalist. We have another person usually that just stands there. Usually they use college kids. And they just sit there and they look for, like, even if you disturb like little birds, or little eggs. You can’t touch anything! [LAUGHTER] They look at all of those things, so once it’s there, it’s roped off. You can’t do anything. That’s why we don’t want to see those kind of stuff in there, because it’ll delay your job completely. THere's a lot a lot a lot of wild animals up there. One time I was walking from one trailer to one trailer, I almost got stampeded by elk. I mean, like, at least 100 of them. I go, where did they come from?! [LAUGHTER] I go, wow! But they know—they’re not scared of people up there, those animals, because they’re used to it. Sometimes we have like babies that will be up there. Baby elk, baby deer, will just be walking up there. Franklin: Right, because they’re all protected on the reservation. Ines: They’re protected. Franklin: They can’t be hunted there. Ines: Yeah, and for some reason, I think they know. [LAUGHTER] Like the elders tell them, oh, we’re okay here. [LAUGHTER] Go beg. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, that’s always—I do tours with the Manhattan Project National Historical Park, and we’re out on Site, when we’re lucky, we see them, and if we’re really lucky, we get close. I think about people that go up to the mountains to hunt and pray that they get really close—you know, half as close to an elk as we do. Yeah, it’s really—Hanford’s kind of a—I think you alluded to it, it’s kind of a wildlife refuge in many ways, kind of accidentally. Because they never—it’s just the nature of taking all that land away for plutonium production that made it kind of a wildlife sanctuary. Ines: Yeah, well, you know, with this radioactive thing, you never know. I mean, they always say that this area might be clean. But wildlife, they fly in there. They eat the stuff, and they go everywhere. Franklin: Right, they’re not bounded by that invisible line on the map. Ines: Yeah. They don’t get a badge. They don’t get a dosimeter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: You always had a dosimeter when you were out there, right? Ines: Yes. If you ever work—if you work in that type of environment, of course, you have to have one. It depends on the level of exposure you’re going to get; you have different types. Franklin: I wanted to ask you, how long were you in the apprentice program? How long of a program was that? Ines: Apprentice is usually about four years. Franklin: Four years. Ines: Kind of like going to college, but you get paid. [LAUGHTER] That’s another good thing about it. And you can make mistakes. Unless you kill somebody or something. [LAUGHTER] You’d probably get fired. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so. Where did you move next after you worked in the 200 East and West Areas? Ines: I just kind of, basically, I’m dispatched through my union. So after—in construction, you know, you start something, it’s eventually going to end. You’re going to finish. So after that ends, they usually move you to another area. Franklin: Right. So you were a project-based—I mean, as the needs of these different projects determined, that’s where you went. Ines: Yes. And then of course after we built Hanford 2, which is Energy Northwest, I think around that time, it’s all cleanup by then. But I remember when I used to see all those—they used to have like a helicopter and an armored truck. Every time they produced a plutonium, they’ll be out there in the 200 Area. Oh! They built some more! [LAUGHTER] Because they’re superly guarded with a helicopter and an armored guard and a caravan of security. Franklin: You’re talking about when they would ship out the finished product, the plutonium, the product. Ines: Yeah. Well, something—they moved them around. It depends on where, it’s either going to go to the finishing place, and then—I didn’t even know this until later on, but they have what they call a railroad building. There’s like, I think, four or maybe six buildings, and what it is is that’s where, after they produce some plutonium, and they’re in the railroad cars, and they store them there to cool down. I’ve never seen them, for years and years. Because they’ve got big mounds of dirt. I passed by them millions and millions of times, until I worked for a contractor, what we did is we had to re-roof all the old buildings here at Hanford. And so we had to re-roof these. And of course it was radioactive so we can’t get inside until everything is clean. But they were there. I mean, they even had a big—I didn’t even know, there’s a big, huge crane in there to lift up the—I don’t know what they’re lifting, but they’re usually in the cart. And what they do is after they build it is I guess they park the cart there and get it cooled. And then once it’s cold, they transport it to wherever they want it to go. Franklin: Wow. Ines: Yeah. That’s a lot of—and then you know, like I worked at the 100-K East and K West. They’re about a mile long, apart. I didn’t know there was a tunnel that goes from one end to the other end. That’s a mile long. There’s a lot of tunnels in there. [LAUGHTER] One time we had—they said they were going to blow up the elevator. This is when we were cleaning up at K East. They said, we’re not going to work that weekend, because they’re going to blow it up so they can eliminate it. And of course when you blow up things, you don’t want to—it has to be a controlled blast so it doesn’t affect the whole area. Well, you know, all of our reactors out there, they used to use asbestos shingles, because it was supposed to make it cooler, I don’t know what it is. But that’s what they used for the walls. So Monday we came back to work, right? [LAUGHTER] It was funny. We’re all—our eyes were that big. They said in the meeting, they said, the blast was—everything was safe, everything was good, nothing happened. And we kind of looked and said, well, how come the shingles are all over the place? And that’s asbestos. And just like that one thing that we cleaned, K East, the pond, because that’s where they used to cool all those spent fuel, they said, when they first detected it was leaking, I don’t remember exactly what the wording was, but the guy who was explaining it said, this is the wording, they never really claimed it. They said, it wasn’t enough leakage—they said something about the leakage was not enough to make it warrant to clean it. But then he told me, yeah, it was leaking like thousands of gallons per day. [LAUGHTER] So that’s what we’re doing, we’re cleaning the whole thing. It was pretty, pretty, pretty hot when we got down there because we had to dig next to the wall and it’s at least 900 millirems or something like that. But we still had to go there. What we did is we had a dozer, and what we did is, to get close to it, we built barriers, like dirt. I pushed it and then once I pushed, we can’t stay there. Then I have to back up all the way as fast as I can. Bcause before I Got there, there was another contractor that was there, and I noticed all their machines were all parked on the side. And they’re all contaminated. I mean, they had to get—you can’t clean them, once it’s penetrated, it’s history. And they said they have like five people that got burned out every year. I mean, their allowed radioactive exposure is gone for the whole year. So they have five. So when we got there, there was only two of us that went in. I said, how you guys going to do that? There’s only two of you. So that’s how we did it. We just went there and came out, and we put barriers, dirt barriers, so we’re always being shielded. And the only thing we got was three. Which is pretty good. Franklin: Three what? Ines: Millirem. Franklin: Oh, three millirem. Ines: Yeah, which is basically not much. Franklin: Yeah. How long did you work out at the K Basins for? 0:27:40 Ines: On and off. I think the first time I went p there is when I built a couple of buildings attached to, next to the ponds, so we can extract the old spent rods. So I built this building so they can transport it, you know. They bring the rod out—what year was that? I can’t remember. But they said that building can only be there for five years. So what it is is they extract that rod on the crane, because I had to build a crane, and then there’s a truck that comes in—this is inside the building—so everything is inside and then it loads up to thet ruck, and then it went up to the—I think they used to call it the smurf building, the blue building up there. You know, where they’d get sealed again or something like that. That was the first time I think I worked at K. But I worked at all of them. I worked at, you know, even D and DR. Franklin: And what did you do there? 0:28:49 Ines: I think that was during the cleanup already. We were cleaning things up. So I asked them, I said, how come there’s a D and a DR? And they said, this is called DR because it’s D Replacement. And I said, what happened to the D? Well, they had a meltdown. The D had a meltdown, so they had to—kind of like what happened to Japan. I don’t know if they realy controlled it. But most of them are cocooned nowadays. We all cocooned them. I even worked at—because my dad used to tell me, he used to go to, I think it was J or A? J? I can’t remember, where they have a lot of experimental stuff with animals. You know, they— Franklin: Oh, F. Ines: F. Is it F? Franklin: Yes. Ines: Yeah, they said, yeah, you should go there. They have all kinds of animals in there, and some of them are smoking weed, some of them are doing this, some of them are being injected by radioactive. And then I had to go clean that up. That was very interesting, because they buried a lot of stuff in there where it was supposed to be clean, and they buried stuff in there, like dead animals. Franklin: Right, the pigs, right? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: The pigs and the dogs. Ines: Yeah. And it stinks. Franklin: Yeah? Ines: Yeah, I don’t know why they didn’t get rid of it properly, because when I was trying to clean that area, you know, make it—we’re supposed to bring it back to American Indians—Native Americans. And I started to vlean it and I was coming up with all of these vaults and tanks. And sometimes I’d open one of them, oh, it was terrible! So we’d always have to call somebody to check out what’s going on. But it’s different. Franklin: So basically the process that you were involved in for cleaning was really just removing the contaminated earth and then where did that go, and what did you replace it with? 0:30:52 Ines: Okay. Well, basically, what we’d do is when we’d—I think the big scenario when I did, they called it the Big Dig. They usually used me for—I’d do a lot of experimental stuff. I’d do the first thing. And so what we did is we had the Big Dig, and that was at B. The hole that I dug, there’s two of them. It’s like four football fields on the bottom. And it slopes out, so it’s a pretty good size. There’s two of them. Becaues by the time I—and what they do, is we separate—we have people that are checking which one is clean, which one is dirty. So we segregate them. So the one that’s dirty, it gets hauled out. And that’s where all of this trucks that you see that have linings and tarps, those are the contaminated ones. Usually the one that’s clean is usually what we put back to backfill. And then they find a place where they can get some more dirt that’s clean. There’s a lot of dirt out there. I even built what they called a mulai-mulai. Have you ever heard of mulai-mulai? Franklin: Yeah, the ridges. Ines: The ridges. Franklin: The upwellings. Ines: Yes. Franklin: They’re leavings of the Ice Age floods. Ines: So that was at N. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: And my job—are you ready for this?—is to rebuild the moolai-moolai that was taken up. Franklin: Really? Ines: Yeah! And I said, so—and the mulai-mulai is an Indian name. It’s an Indian name that means, god made this. So I had to rebuild this mulai-mulai. And the engineer got the design so I know where to start and the height and the dimension. So finally I told them, you know what? By the time I build this thing, it should be Lito-Lito, because I made it! [LAUGHTER] Not mulai-mulai. So everybody was laughing at me. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow. I’ve never—how many did you build? Like, how—do you have an idea, an estimate— Ines: How many mulai-mulai I built? Franklin: Yeah, how long did you work on that? Ines: Well, I can build—you know, they’re not that big. They’re probably less than this building, I mean this studio. They’re not that big. Some of them are a little bigger. But they’re not—I’m guessing probably the highest is maybe ten feet. Franklin: did you have photos to work from or--? Ines: No. Franklin: How did you approach that? 0:33:38 Ines: What do you mean by photo? We have plans, you know, blueprints. Is that what you meant? Franklin: Yeah, I mean, I’m wondering— Ines: Yeah, it’s engineered. You know, it’s surveyed, the outline is surveyed, and then they give—it’s kind of like building a golf course. Have you seen a golf course? You know, they have like mounds. Same thing. Kind of like, if you want to make a nice garden in your yard, you know, you make like a pattern, that’s where you start and you build up. It’s the same thing. It’s surveyed. But nowadays everything is satellite surveyed. SO you just put your rod, and that’s how high it goes. Franklin: So were these mulai-mulai that had been taken away for the construction of N Reactor? Ines: Yes. Franklin: There are still some natural ones. Ines: Yes. There are some still in there. Franklin: That’s just so interesting that they would re-put that there, because now it’s a manmade mulai-mulai. Ines: Lito-Lito. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And you would know. It’s just fascinating to me, because you would know—I mean, you would’ve restored it, but you would know and it would also be—that’s really interesting. Ines: Yeah, isn’t that amazing? Well, you know, in the Philippines we have what we call a chocolate mountain. Have you ever heard of that? Franklin: No. Ines: Kind of a similar thing. There’s millions of them up there. But they call it chocolate mountain because of the Kisses. You remember the chocolate Kisses? That’s why they call it a chocolate mountain. Franklin: Oh, interesting. Ines: Yeah, very. Franklin: I want to go back to a couple things. So these railroad car areas, you mentioned where they would store the hot railroad cars. Ines: Yeah, the one they just— Franklin: Were these like large tunnels, or— Ines: Oh, no. Franklin: Especially if it had dirt on it— Ines: Well, no, the dirt is a barricade to hide those buildings. The buildings are pretty big. They’re probably the size of Floyd. Franklin: Okay. SO it was a building. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: But you couldn’t see it from the roadway— Ines: No. Franklin: --because it was obscured by a—and was it manmade dirt? Ines: Yes, yes. Franklin: Oh, okay. Ines: It’s all manmade, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Wow. Ines: Yeah, they were hiding it. Franklin: And how many did you say there were? Ines: I think there were at least—I’m guessing—it’s been a while—either four or five, because, you know— Franklin: And what area were they in? Ines: They’re in between East and West, 200 East and West. Franklin: Okay. Ines: So that’s why—I’d never seen it! Because you go through, when we go to the H, it’s one way, and then the other way is you go to the West area. You pass by—it’s in between, it’s right over there. Franklin: Interesting. Right, because the cars would take the fuel from the reactors to the 200 Area, drop it off, processing, and then I guess, I’m assuming, that’s where then they would stage those rail cars to let them cool down. Ines: Yeah, that place used to be railings all over the place. Sometimes when I’m doing some cleaning up, I’d end up with, oh, there’s railroads here. And they’re all interconnected, all of those reactors. Franklin: Right. Ines: Yeah, rails was the form of transportation. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, for the fuel, yeah. I wanted to ask you about your time spent working at WPPS in the early—what was that like to work on a commercial—was working on a commercial reactor different than working— Ines: It was very, very different. Because, you know, it’s not really a—it’s not like the Hanford, the government job that we had, because it’s kind of outside of it. What it is is you had, oh, we had different contractors. There’s so many different contractors working on Hanford. You only had one. This was you’re working with like 12, 20 different contractors. So, everybody’s different. So like our meeting would be just on our company. And then our place—it was really, really different. Because that was the year when we had a lot of people that came form—I don’t know why, there were a lot from Texas. They were Texas—I mean, everywhere I looked, they were from Texas. And then of course like the parking lot is full of different trailers. But the one thing that really stuck to me when I was working there that was really, really different is they used to have portable brothel. Franklin: I’ve heard things of this nature about WPPSS construction. Ines: You’ve heard, and it was the truth. It was the truth. There were trailer—there were campers out there. And that was just so—oh. But I was young, plus I didn’t have enough money. [LAUGHTER] And those guys—I mean, a lot of them make—I mean, we make tons of money out there. But that was really something else. That they—ad then another thing they do, is they all have this gambling—everybody’s—each group has their own just gambling thing. Like in this one cuhte that goes from the bottom all the way to the top—because I run the cranes—and most of the time I’m not busy, I run the overhead cranes. One of our crane guys runs the chutes that goes from the bottom all the wy to the top, because there’s no crane there. So he has like a little portable crane. So I went to visit him, and then I looked in that chute, and I looked down there, there’s this big, huge circle. Kind of like a target. It had like different size rings in it. And in the middle is dirt, and I know there’s a lot of coins down there. And I go, what’s that for? He said, oh, yeah, you throw your coins in there and you put your name, and at the end of the week, whoever’s close to the center takes the whole pot. I said, you’re kidding me! [LAUGHTER] And then they even have contests of rolling your coins on the dirt and whoever gets the farthest wins the pot. And I’m not a gambler, and I don’t really play too many game cards or anything like that, card games. I learned a lot from that place. [LAUGHTER] And this is another thing. This is earlier. My first day there at work. In our building, I walked in there, it’s probably half the size of this. And as soon as I walked in the door, that whole wall, that whole ceiling was filled with penthouse pinups. I go, wow! You can’t do that anymore, because it’s illegal. Franklin: No, you couldn’t. Ines: [LAUGHTER] So, I walked in so I just kind of stood there because I’ve never seen some of them. So I was looking, and then finally the boss—what are you doing there? We’re having a meeting! I said, I was looking to see if my girlfriend’s in here. [LAUGHTER] It was different then. Franklin: Yeah, it really kind of sounds like the Wild West of construction. Ines: It was. As a matter of fact, sometimes when they’d tell me, well, I don’t have nothing to do. Yeah, you don’t have nothing to do? Just go walk around. What do you mean, walk around? Just walk around. Just explore. [LAUGHTER] Really. Yeah. But then one time, they told me, they said—just like I said, I run the overhead cranes, and one day they come up to me and said, we need somebody to do the crane test on tower something. And I was new, so I was just kind of looking around. And they said, nobody else volunteering, so I guess Lito’s going to do it because he’s different. So I said, okay, I guess. So I went. And I went in there, and as soon as I went in there, they got bleaches built on three sides. Now all of the sudden, it’s kind of like a boxing game or something. SO they all got filled up with all these people in suits. What’s going on? And then a camer shows up. Just like that. So it was a big thing. And then I have to deal with an ironworker, because they’re the ones that used to do the signals all the time for the cranes. So finally I looked at the thing and then there’s this big, huge obstacle in the middle that I know if I run the crane northeast, east, west and south, whatever, I’m going to have to cross that or go on top. Well, you know, you have the big hook, right? And I know I’m going to go in there and it’s going to crawl and drag on top of that. So I’m going, well, that looks unsafe. And so finally I said, no, I was going to go ask him, to make sure he checks it. So finally I got to the control and it was red-tagged. You know, the thing where they put tags if there’s something wrong with it. If it’s red-tagged, you can’t touch it. So I said, well, I can’t touch it. And the ironworker said, what do you mean, you can’t touch it? It’s red-tagged! That means there’s something wrong with it or whatever. You don’t know; I don’t know. And so he got mad at me, and he said, I’m going to talk to your boss. Blah, blah, blah, we’ve got all these people out here, these are all big dignitaries, they’re supposed to see both of us do the work. And I said, well, I’m not going to do it until you do that. He goes, oh, okay. And finally they got a superintendent—they called somebody, and he signed, and said, okay. So I finally got it started. And I said, now another thing you need to do is you need to check on top of that thing, make sure there’s nothing on top. So he got mad. You know hwo construction people, they cuss and they yell and they throw stuff. I said, I don’t care what you do, but check it. He said, argh! It’s clean. I said, okay. So of course, he’s the one that does the signaling. So he’s walking, he’s checking the thing, he’s giving me the signal, then final yit’s time to go and drag the big hook on top of the thing. Of course, I can’t see the other side. And I was doing it, and he keeps saying, yeah, keep going, keep going. He was on the other side. Guess what. There was something on top of that thing. And it fell, almost hit him. And I said, there you go. [LAUGHTER] He goes, argh! It didn’t hit me. [LAUGHTER] And there was all kinds of stuff in there. That’s amazing, though—and then, eventually after that thing was built, one of my high school friend that was in my wrestling team, he became a lawyer. Of course you know at Hanford when they were building that thing, a lot fo people were punching in at two, three different time clocks. They did that. And so this high school friend of mine—and that’s what he was—he just got out of college and he said, my company’s auditing the Hanford, Energy Northwest for what they did. So I told him, I said, it’s true. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. People are punching in at different times. I mean, it was just amazing what they did there. Franklin: You mean people were turning in like multiple—like claiming— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: --like that they’d worked different hours, or— Ines: No, no, not just—they were punching in on three different time clocks. Not just— Franklin: Not just the one, but— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: And then they would get paid for three times the— Ines: Yeah. I was there, too, when they did that. You know, when people were saying, they’re time-clocking in but they were saying that they worked—I was there, because I knew who they were. Franklin: Wow. Ewre you still with WPPSS when the default happened and the whole thing shut down? Ines: Oh, you mean the Hanford 1 and— Franklin: 1 and 4, yeah. Ines: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Were you there when— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: I wonder if you could describe that. How did people take it, and what happened to the work? Ines: Well, basically, all the people that was involved in it was devastated because they lost their job. I didn’t really care. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Why is that? Ines: I was just an apprentice. Because I know eventually I’m going to get a—what I did is they transferred me to build an airport, someplace out there by the dam? I think it was called Electric City. Franklin: Okay. Ines: So while they were hassling that problem, I was working someplace else. And I hate—I don’t travel. So that’s why I didn’t stay that long. I said, there’s nothing here! So I came back. Franklin: Okay. Ines: Yeah. Because the problem with working with unions, they send you this and that, and you have to take it. But now that I’m a little bit senior in the ladder, I can choose. And of course, I can hassle for my work. Because I have so much background; I’ve worked with this, this, this, this. I usually just call them up. Franklin: And so after you came back, you spent most of your time just working on cleanup. Ines: Cleanup. Franklin: Right? Ines: Yeah, after that, it was after the—when they were doing the Hanford 2. After that, it was—and it was tough security then. When ti was top secret. I mean, you can’t go—my first day at Hanford in the security at Wye Barricade, and I noticed, why is everybody leaving their key in the trunk? Well, because you’re supposed to open the trunk, they check all your lunch bag, they look underneath, they got the dog. You know, you have to—it was security. And I was wondering why they leave—all those people leaving their keys in their trunk. Then I finally realized, so they don’t have to go out. [LAUGHTER] Nowadays, you can just push a button. But I was wondering about that. I said, those guys are stupid, leaving their keys in there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m wondering if you can talk about the reaction to the shutdown in the late ‘80s when Hanford was told to stop producing. I’m wondering if you can talk about how that affected you or other workers in the community. Ines: It didn’t affect me at all. You know, because, like I said, they always sent me out—one of ym biggest job is, I was a tech engineer, so I usually do the layout, I do the surveying, that kind of stuff. So I’d do all of that kind of stuff. And that’s in demand. Everywhere you go, they always need somebody on that field. That’s why I kept doing that. Mots people don’t like that, because you’re responsible. [LAUGHTER] You’re the main dude. I mean, yeah, that’s where we start, that’s where we dig, and that’s where we put thigns. People didn’t like that. A lot of people that are in construction, that’s the reason that they’re in construction: they didn’t want to go to college. So the job I had was almost pretty safe at that time. They just want to run the machine. You don’t need to know how to add or subtract or some things like that. The people, I mean, in general, the Tri-City community was devastated because that’s when a lot of people moved out. That’s the best time to buy a hosue. That’s when I bought my first house, is that era. Because everything was cheap. The house that I bought was in the market for over two years. So I got it dirt-cheap. Franklin: Did you buy a house here in Richland? Ines: Kennewick. Franklin: Kennewick, okay. Ines: Yeah, I always lived in Kennewick. Franklin: Okay. What do you want to remember about the Chernobyl incient and how that affected Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Ines: Well, I think that was just kind of like a wakeup call for us here, because it can happen here. But most of the people will tell me, oh, Hanford is safe. They said, everything is—you know, they tell us everything is safe here. Everything is—but I’m sure Japan was the same way. But they brainwash you a little bit. Franklin: Yeah? Ines: Tell you, oh, it’s okay here. Just like, well, I was working at the Vit Plant. So you remember aobut the collapse of the tunnel? Franklin: Yeah, I was out onsite. Ines: Onsite? That was at 200 East. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: Well, the Vitrification Plant is just the other side of the fence. Well I was there. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Ines: So when it collapsed, I didn’t even know. I was there in my rig, and I said, why is everybody running? [LAUGHTER] You know, we always have false—we always have drills. So finally I said, is this a drill, or is it for real? So I called the radio, I said, for real! I said, oh! So you’re supposed to shut everything off and go to the nearest building, take cover. So I did. Which is close to the gate. Which is, where the tunnel is, you can see it from where I was. Well, I’m diabetic. And so I was there for over two hours. Because we stayed there for a long time. Of course, we have to turn off all the air conditioner. So I was hot. And of course, there’s no food. So it’s not good. SO finally somebody from our main building said, you know, if you guys have any diabetic people make sure you have him here because we have all the things you need, like water, whatever. So I said, well, I guess I’m going to go. And they let me go. Eventually, what, three weeks ago, a month ago, they said that there was contamination release. And they let me out. [LAUGHTER] To go to this other building. So now I’m having problem with my chest. I’ve been coughing lately. So I don’t know, hopefully there’s nothing. Franklin: Yeah. Wow. That’s a really— Ines: It’s really—I was at K—was it K? No, it was D. Could be N. [LAUGHTER] I’ve done all—but I was backfilling this trench that goes from what they call the dam that dumps off the cooled water—it’s supposed to be cooled and cleaned water—that dumps out into this trench into the river. It was like 40 feet deep. It’s deep. The concrete’s been gone. They took it off. So I was backfilling it. So I’ve got this big huge truck. You’ve seen those big trucks? With big, huge tires about the size of this building. And then they dump the dirt in front of me and then they push it towards this hole. So one time I was, in the morning, I had this guy that does the thing, I was helping him take out the ropes so nobody will go through there. We usually put a big berm at the end of my job so nobody will fall in. So I was helping him put the ropes. So he set his Geiger counter, and I was telling him, why don’t you guys once in a while survey that? Make sure what we’re doing—oh, it’s—they swear, it’s clean. It’s clean-clean. This guy looks at me and goes, yeah, see if you can just help me. So he puts his thing on the ground and then we were moving that and all of the sudden his machine went [TRILLING]. He looked at it, and he picked it up and said, you didn’t see that. Okay. [LAUGHTER] That’s a lot of stuff out there that’s really weird. Frankli: What would’ve happened had you had seen that? Would they have had to stop work? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: IS that, you think, the reason for some of that behavior? Ines. Yeah. Yep. The same thing out at Hanford, you know, besides Hanford. If you find a big dinosaur bone, it’ll shut the whole job. That’s your livelihood. That’s everybody’s livelihood. Franklin: Right. But it’s also—in the case of bones or burials or cultural sites, though, it’s also a resource that was just discovered, right? Ines: Yeah. Franklin: There’s value in that thing that was discovered. Ines: It’s a different industry. Franklin: There’s a real tension between— Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Right, the project—the construction forces and then the cultural forces. Did you ever see—were there ever any big disagreements—any real tensions that erupted in any of the jobs you were at, between like cultural people and like construction people or kind of— Ines: no. Franklin: No? Okay. Ines: Not really. I’m sure they—after they find out, they probably hash it out someplace and they probably yell at each other. [LAUGHTER] But they don’t show us that. Franklin: Sure. Let’s see here. And so, ah, so you’ve really just kind of been—and you’re still working. Like, you’re semi-retired? Ines: Semi, yeah. Franklin: Okay. What does that mean? Ines: That means I’m not working that much. Yeah. Franklin: Okay, but you still are like— Ines: I’m still—I can still go. Franklin: You’ve done some work on the 324 recently? Ines: 324—well, no, that was a couple years ago. Franklin: Oh, a couple years ago, okay. Where was the last place that you worked? Ines: The Vitrification Plant. Franklin: Oh, right. With the tunnel, earlier this year. Ines: The tunnel, yeah. Franklin: And what were you doing out there? Ines: At that time, I was running what you call a vacuum truck, because we can’t use big machinery to dig stuff and rip everything out, so we used this—that’s why just—why are we running this? This is a truck? It’s supposed to be Teamster. Look at it, it has a wheel. But we run it. And it’s pretty neat, because it sucks everything. It’s amazing at what it does, but it doesn’t ruin anything. Unless you keep jabbing on something. But it’ll even go through those what we call, kind of like a light concrete, it’ll penetrate it. Franklin: Wow. How many reactors did you work on cocooning? Do you remember? Ines: I think basically all of them. I did all of them, because— Franklin: What was the process for that? Ines: Well, the process, first you have to clean all around it. There’s a lot of contamination. You know, when they’re building—when they were doing the reactor itself, they used to be all kinds of chemicals. You know, like ammonia and all kinds of stuff. The process is you have to clean around it first. Then you had to do—that’s why we had that big rig, too, is we were looking for—I can’t remember what chemical that is—and it’s weird, I never seen it before-but if it gets contact with water, it turns green, like a lawn. It’s really—it’s bright green! That’s why sometimes when we’d get done, the next day we’d come back and say, ho, there’s green stuff in there! So at least we know where it’s at. Just like—they gave us a perimeter where to dig. When we start getting done, we saw this one area, the slope is still green. So it needs to go farther that way. There’s a lot of contamination. Because they used all kinds of defunct chemicals to supposedly clean those railroad carts and things like that. And they used all kinds of stuff. One time I was in B, I found a whole bunch of boron, boron balls. That’s what they used to clean the tubes for the reactor. I dug a bunch of those. And I go, ho, bowling balls! They’re nice, perfectly round, white—I mean, it’s white. It’s kind of—hey, there’s all kinds of stuff in there. Franklin: And then you would have to—when you went to do the cocooning, were all the support buildings still there? Ines: No. Franklin: Like power houses and— Ines: No. Franklin: Oh, okay, so those had been-- Ines: Yeah. You work out the perimeter first, and you take all of those things out. Franklin: All the support buildings. Ines: All the support buildings and all of the sudden it’s just the reactor tiself. Franklin: And then you kind of—and then what’s the next—do you remove the roof, or like, how do you get that—because now it kind of looks like a polygon. So how do you get from the big chunky reactor building down to that polygon? Ines: Well, that’s what they do. Just like I said, we start from the outside, we take all of the support building and part of the different building is part of the support building of that reactor. The only thing that’s left there is actually the casing of the reactor. And then, of course, that’s when they put the dome in there. I don’t know what—and they tarp it [MUMBLING] Franklin: Cool. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Just a couple more questions. Kind of larger-scale questions. I wanted to ask you, what were some of the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Ines: Hmm. To me, it’s probably getting all those reactors clean. That’s the biggest ting. Because that’s a big—that’s basically what our mission is, to clean everything. Franklin: Yeah. Ines: That’s our challenge, and we did it safely. We all went home everyday, none of us really got hurt. That was the most challenging things. And then fo course, the reward is I survived it. We all survived it. And then now we got all this monuments that we could show the people. Franklin: What do you mean, monumnets? Ines: Well, you know, the cocooned reactors. We could show the people the history of Hanford. Franklin: Right. Ines: Instead of just flattening everything out. Franklin: Yeah, and well, now there’s the B Reactor Museum, too— Ines: Yeah, I was there. Franklin: Part of the park. Ines: And we cleaned that. Hopefully they don’t say—kind of like, well, how the South are tearing down the monuments. I hope that doesn’t happen. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, that’s always sbeen an interesting connection to me. I wanted to ask you if you could describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Ines: A lot of secrecy. It’s basically a lot of paperwork. And just like what they said before, you can’t talk about your job up there. Franklin: Was that true even in the ‘80s and ‘90s? You felt like that in— Ines: Ah, it depends on where you’re at, see? I mean, if you’re working where they produced—because I remember it was just right here, 300 Area. I didn’t evne know—and that was late. And we had to clean a basement. And I walked in there, and it’s an old, old building. You know, those big, like semi-round buildings. And it’s a shop. It’s a machine shop. So I walk in there, and I go, this is where we’re going to be working at? Yeah! So I go walk in there, and then as soon as I walked in there, there’s a door, kind of like that. And I opened it. And as soon as I stepped in there, the whole place lit up. I said, whoa, what happened? What did we do? You know? They got sirens, they got all those rotating lights and then somebody came. And said, what are you doing here? And I said, well, I’m supposed to work here. And I told him what room. And of course, I don’t know where it’s at. He said, well, you can’t just be—you have to have a special badge. I said, oh. And so finally, I worked there for a whoel week and this always happens. You have to wait. And every time I go in there, I notice everybody—they have like desks and they have all kinds of stuff, and every time we go through there, they have this big canvas or cloth and they cover whatever they’re doing. And I go, hmm, that’s odd. And then it’s kind of weird, too, but by the time I got to the stairs, it was deep. It was at least 100 feet deep. My first day there, there was lockers, old army lockers, there’s lockers all the way around that thing. And I was curious, so I start opening those lockers, and they still have unifroms, but from the Army. That’s still in there. It was odd. And then, the only thing that bothers me is on the roof, you know, like Star Wars, they have that ray gun, that goes, bzzt. And once in a while it does that. It goes, brrrrt. And I go, what? Are we in an experiment or what? But I didn’t think anything about it. So my last day there and after I got done, we didn’t have to exit in the same place. We had to exit in a different place. So we had to wait. So finally, I asked the guy who was my escort, I said, you know, today’s my last day here. I just want to ask you something. What in the hell are you guys doing here? I said, what are you guys hiding? He said, well, you know, we’re with the defense department, US defense. I said, what are you guys doing? He said, we’re researching plutonium warheads. [LAUGHTER] I go, I thought you’re not supposed to be doing that anymore. [LAUGHTER] It’s an old building. Like I said, it doesn’t even look—it’s those—but, you know? And the front of it is a machine shop. So they’re still doing it, the last time I saw that. But most of the time, all of them are gone. Another thing, my first tme here, I used to see a lot of those silos. They have holes in the ground, they have rockets. And they told me about it, but since I run around with my machines, so I drove in there. Because, what they told me, usually, in the middle of the field, there’s a bunch of trees? Tha’ts where they’re at. It’s pretty obvious, because the whole place is desert and then you see these trees around it. And it’s like in a circle or rectangular thing or square. So I went in there, and there it is. There’s silos in there. Franklin: Right, yeah, I heard those used to be anti-aircraft batteries before they were—yeah, the Nikes, right? The Nike missile silos? Ines: yeah. Franklin: My last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Ines: We made good money. [LAUGHTER] WE made good, good money. We made good money working at Hanford. Because, you know. And everything is—and it was good. It made the Tri-Cities. Because without the Hanford Project, I don’t think the Tri-Cities would be this big. But I know the Hanford Project wasn’t the only industry here, ebcase one of the big things we have here is agriculture. Franklin: Sure, yeah. Huge agriculture. Ines: Yeah. And you know, without the Hanford, too, we couldn’t have gotten Battelle. Battelle is one of our biggest—my dad used to tell me, he said—because he’s the one that used to build the buildings here, and everything had to be approved. He said, you know about Battelle? If they want a building, they get it just like that. [LAUGHTER] The other corporations, no. It has to go through the proves. Battelle, yeah, if they want something, they’re going to get it. Bcause that’s where all the research was at that time. Franklin: Yeah, that makes sense. Ines: Yeah. Franklin: Well, Lito, thank you so much— Ines: Thank you. Franklin: --for coming and talking with us. I really enjoyed your stories. They were great. Grade A. Ines: Different, huh? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Colorful is the word I would use. Ines: IT’s not like working in Disneyland. nd. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Washington State University Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:08:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9987 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area Hanford 2 Energy Northwest 100-K East K West Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 57 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joselito Ines Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Lito Ines started as an apprentice operating engineer for the local 370 working as a heavy equipment operator. He immigrated from the Philippines at age 15 in 1967. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/6/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. 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This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5b83b94c68de50301b8e97b9e7e3f03f.jpg bc9fdbf398dab35f02e87bb819f53807 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa30711922620dbac020fc42a9e65de4f.mp4 240a25c48ff69ef6becf66f630e9f7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandra Paine Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Tom Hungate: I’m ready. Robert Franklin: Ready? Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Sandra Paine on July 5, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Sandra about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Sandra Paine: Sandra Lee Paine. P-A-I-N-E. Sandra, S-A-N-D-R-A, Lee, L-E-E. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, Sandra. So tell me, how and why did you come to the area to work for the Hanford Site? Paine: Well, I was born and raised here, and I went out to CBC. When I was—after my three boys got into school age, and I knew they were going to be growing up and I’m going to be bored staying home. So I happened to go out and take a test and they sent me to school. Because I went out there and took the nuclear chemical operator classes. Franklin: Oh, really? Paine: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. 0:01:11 Paine: And when I graduated from that, I turned in my resume, and I was hired right away. Franklin: Wow, and what was it about nuclear chemical operating that made you want to join that field? Paine: Well, my ex-husband worked out at Hanford. And he was a nuclear chemical operator at that time. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you figured if he could do it, you could do it? Paine: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m sure it probably pays-- Paine: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Were you supporting your three children on your own then? Paine: No. No. Not then. Franklin: Oh, okay. You were remarried. Paine: I was married at the time. Franklin: Oh, okay. And when you say you were born and raised here, where were you born? Paine: I was born right here in Pasco on North 8th and Sylvester Street. Franklin: Oh, okay. Paine: Second house in, big old square white house, two-story house. My mom ran kind of a boarding room upstairs; she rented out the rooms upstairs. Franklin: Oh, really? How long did she do that for? 0:02:13 Paine: Oh, god, quite a few years, till I was married and gone. I was adopted into the family, so I was adopted when I was two years old. Franklin: Oh, okay. Paine: To Virgil Lamb and Lara Lamb. They adopted me. Franklin: Okay. And did your mother run the boarding house--do you know what years or-- Paine: Oh, from the time I was about--well, when I was adopted in, she was running a boarding house upstairs. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you turned in your resume to Hanford, and which contractor did you end up working for? Paine: CH2M Hill. Franklin: CH2M Hill, okay. So you said you were hired right away. So where did you go to work, right off the bat? Paine: PUREX. Franklin: PUREX. What did you do at PUREX? 0:03:14 Paine: Well, I worked on the line and didn’t like that. So I got a chance to do surveillance in the building, going around checking all the fire extinguishers and checking out places that most people didn’t normally get to go. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Such as? Paine: As the tunnels. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, okay. You mean the tunnels that were recently in the news? Paine: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, wow. Paine: They were there then. Franklin: Yeah, because they were built in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Paine: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could describe what that was like to go in that abandoned tunnel, or that place. Paine: Well, it really wasn’t abandoned then. There was stuff going on in there. Franklin: Oh, so people were putting material in there? Paine: Yeah. Franklin: And what did it—were there lights in there, or how much room did you have to move around in those tunnels? 0:04:14 Paine: Well, you wore a headlight and carried a flashlight and stuff. There were lights in some areas. Franklin: What kind of protective gear did you wear to go inside the tunnel? Paine: Usually a pair of white coveralls and that’s it. Franklin: And that was it? Paine: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Paine: Back then, it wasn’t required to wear a mask or anything, till later. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what year did you start at PUREX? Paine: 1980. David Chambers: 1990. Paine: 1990, yeah, 1990. Franklin: 1990, okay. Great. So that sounds really, really interesting to kind of get to go around--so you said you kind of--sounds like you did some mundane things like check fire extinguishers, but you also--what other types of places did you get to go that other folks who worked out there may not have gotten into? 0:05:22 Paine: Well, I could go pretty much anywhere I wanted to. It depended on what kind of clearance you had, where you could go. Franklin: And what kind of clearance did you have? Paine: Well, I don’t know, it was, whatever was needed for the job. I can’t remember what they call them. Franklin: Sure, no, no, no, no problem. Paine: You get COPD, you get problems remembering. Franklin: Sure, no, I completely understand. How long did you do this kind of maintenance job out there? Paine: Well, I preferred doing that than working on the line, so I did surveillance all the time. Franklin: Okay. And then how many years did you do surveillance for? Paine: Oh. Chambers: Probably two or three, and then you went—you finally ended up at the Tank Farms. 0:06:21 Paine: Yeah, two or three and then went to Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, okay. Paine: Worked on the drill rigs. Franklin: Worked on what? Paine: Drill rigs, which we took 19-inch core samples out of all the waste tanks out there. Franklin: Oh, wow. Can you describe how that was done? 0:06:37 Paine: Well, you had a big old truck that you backed up there that had a pipe going down, that just actually drilled down to the waste. But we sent a sampler down in there that it filled the sampler, and then we’d have to pull the sampler out and put it in a cask to be sent to the lab. Franklin: Okay. And so that was to test the different composition of the tanks? Paine: The type of waste that was in it, and that type of--yeah. How radioactive it was and how--because they put different layers of different waste in there. Franklin; Yes, yes, they did, yeah. What made you decide to go do that work? Paine: Well, I liked to be outside. I didn’t want to be closed up in a building. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I guess you would get plenty of outside. The tanks are all outside. Did--sorry, excuse me. Did you enjoy the Tank Farms work? Paine: Yeah, I liked working out there, yeah. Franklin: Yeah? Were there any challenges? Were there any tanks that were more challenging than others? 0:07:55 Paine: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. Yeah. Bringing up higher radioactive waste that you had to really be careful. Put lead blankets and stuff around to keep--so HPTs kept us on our toes while it was coming up. Franklin: Who did? Paine: HPTs. Franklin: What’s an HPT? Paine: Hazardous--monitors. People that monitored the waste, you know. The radioactivity. Chambers: That was a radiation monitor. Paine: Yeah, radiation monitors. Franklin: And what kind of protective gear did you wear when you were working out at the Tank Farms? 0:08:36 Paine: Well, depends on what type of job you were doing. Sometimes you were in one pair of whites, sometimes you were in two pairs of whites. Sometimes you were in plastic lead-lined clothing on. Franklin: Mm. Did you feel that out at the Tank Farms that the protection was adequate for the job you were being asked to do? Paine: Yeah. [UNKNOWN] It doesn’t matter if you’re even outside the Tank Farms then you’re going to get the radiation, you know? Whether you--just because you don’t get contaminated, the radiation still is-- Chambers: Let me make a comment for you here. Dave Flinger[?] is the one that come up with a really good one on this. Some of the people from the DOE were talking and they were asking about--she said, they said well, those areas are fenced off. And they said, well, yeah, you mean those magical chain link fences stop the fumes from coming through? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Very true. Paine: Magical chain link fence. Franklin: Yeah. What other types of challenges did you find at the Tank Farms? 0:10:19 Paine: Well, I enjoyed my job, so I really took it one step at a time and figured--try to do the best that I could, whatever challenges, it was up to my ability. Franklin: Sure. And how long did you work out at the Tank Farms for? David Chambers: You were there probably—probably about 15 years. Paine: 18 years. Chambers: 18 years total, about. Paine: 18 years, yeah. Chambers: At Tank Farms for 15 of it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Chambers: And she also--she didn’t tell you, she was responsible for driving the emergency evacuation bus, so she had to take that out every now and then and drive that so if we had an emergency, she’d fill it up and get it out of the Area. Franklin: Was that when you worked at the Tank Farms, or at PUREX? Paine: PUREX and I did have Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, okay. Was there ever a time when you had to drive the emergency evacuation bus for-- 0:11:07 Paine: Oh. No. We had to keep certified on it, so we had to go out and drive it. So we got to go drive around the Hanford Area, you know, where--we had to put so many hours in to keep your license up. Franklin: Sure, sure. But you never--there was never an emergency where you had to use the bus. Paine: No, no, never. Franklin: Well, that’s good. So, 18--so you retired--or you left the Tank Farms in 2008, then? Paine: Yeah, 2008-2009, yeah. Franklin: Wow, that’s quite a long time out there. Were there any major changes into the way that the work out there was approached when you started at the Tank Farms versus when you left? 0:12:02 Paine: Well, changes in amount of protection, clothing protection that you wore when they were beginning to get up on it a little bit. But I don’t know, I just enjoyed working out there, and didn’t really pay attention. [LAUGHTER] Chambers: The pay was good. Paine: Huh? Chambers: The pay was really good. Paine: Yeah, the pay was good. Not many women made 30 bucks an hour at that time. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, no, that’s very true. That’s very true. Was that one of the things that you enjoyed the most about working out there, was the compensation? 0:12:43 Paine: Well, no, I enjoyed the company and the people out there, you know, were really nice, and had a lot of good times, too. You know, that’s what—liking the people you work with and the thing you do helps you get up and go to the job every morning. Franklin: Yeah, it really does. It really does. Did you work with the same people day to day, usually? Paine: Pretty much. Franklin: You had kind of a crew that you knew well and depended on? Paine: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: I’m wondering if there were any ways that security or secrecy at Hanford affected your work? 0:13:22 Paine: Well, I just never talked about what I did out there. I didn’t want to make a mistake and say something that I shouldn’t, so I just kept my mouth shut. You know? You never know. Might say something that somebody might want to find out more from you. Put you on a--[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Like some pushy history interviewer? Paine: No. [LAUGHTER] I don’t mind doing it to you now. Franklin: Oh, thank you. That’s great. So I guess as just a final question, the same reflective question I asked Dennis, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the--well, you didn’t work during the Cold War, but I wonder, how about working at Hanford, dealing with the legacy of the Cold War? Paine: Yeah, well, it’s a must, that must be done. And the future’s going to depend on it. Franklin: How so? 0:14:25 Paine: Because we have to keep up with the world, what the world’s doing. They’re developing nuclear stuff and we need more power plants and electricity’s getting higher and higher. You know? Franklin: I’m wondering, do you feel that we can manage the risks, the waste-- Paine: Yes. Franklin: --responsibly and effectively? Paine: I think we can, yes. Franklin: Yeah? Paine: Yeah. We need more places like Yucca Mountain. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Great. Yeah, because it’s not really doing too hot in the tanks, is it? Paine: Mm-mm. Franklin: Great. Well, Sandra, thank you so much for coming and talking with us today. It was really interesting to hear about your experiences. Paine: Well, I hope some of my information helps. Franklin: Yeah, no, it’s really great to hear about, you know, not only the work, but women doing this kind of work out in the workforce and being a real important part of--and showing that women are capable any job. Paine: Well, thank you, we had quite a few women on my crew of my graduating class that went to work out there. We worked, a lot of times, together. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Paine: So there were quite a few. Chambers: Sandra’s got quite bad COPD, too. She started her performance evaluation on June the 10th. And they’ll send her over to a little room to get on a bicycle, too. But the bicycle, evidently, from what I understand is broken. Maybe it’s fixed now. So, she’s waiting for the call to go over there and do that, you know. And then of course, she’s been on hers for four years now, too, to try to get everything resolved. Franklin: Wow. Well, I hope you get a quick resolution and just compensation. Paine: Thank you. Franklin: Okay, well. Thanks to both of you. I really appreciate it. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:16:19 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9980 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview CH2M Hill PUREX Tank Farms Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site Since birth Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sandra Paine Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Sandra Paine talks about her time working in the Tank Farms as a Nuclear Chemical Operator. She reflects on the changes that have happened and the pleasant memories while working at the Hanford site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/05/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. ch2m hill Hanford nuclear chemical operator PUREX Tank Farms Woman Women https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F206452690c8885d2fd3e2569f534c285.JPG 466ec2396ffb6f5e3897b77412c7231f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F05fbc818de7c9ff8a2d133d46e686b4d.mp4 1092ddd880390c6414afc6d74a7556c3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Betty Norton Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Betty Norton on August 28, 2017 The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-City. I’ll be talking with Betty about her experiences growing up in Richland. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Betty Norton: Betty, B-E-T-T-Y. My maiden name was Bell, B-E-L-L. And a lot of this is because of my dad. And last name is Norton, N-O-R-T-O-N. Franklin: Okay, great. Thanks, Betty. So, tell me, how and why did you come to the area? Norton: Because my dad came. At the time, we were--well, we started out in Tennessee, and Dad was working for DuPont. Well, he got transferred to Kankakee Ordnance with DuPont in 1942 in October. So we were there about 18, 20 months or so. And then the guy kept telling Dad, you need to go out to Hanford. Well, he’d heard about that scary place out in the desert and everything. And, no, he wanted no part of it. We were from Tennessee and Kentucky and Arkansas. Beautiful country. And he wasn’t about to get that much farther away from family. So, the guy kept insisting, though, and he kept saying, Cecil, I think you need to. So finally my dad said to Mom, well, it sounds like he knows something that we don’t. So, maybe we’d better do it. So Dad got out here. 24 men. Reading my dad’s book, which is absolutely fascinating. He wrote some things--”The things I remember and some I don’t remember” by Cecil Bell. And I think part of it is probably things he didn’t remmeber. But anyway, he and 23 other men were in one sleeping car, coming from Kankakee out to here the first day or two of February of 1944. So they all ended up pretty much being very good friends over the years. One of the guys even was in the other half of our A house, which was on Stevens Drive. In fact, it’s the big one right now across from where the old Sacajawea School was. It now has the big six white pillars and the brick front. Franklni: Oh, yeah, I know that one, yeah. Norton: That’s now, the Catholic priest lives ther,e I believe. Or at least he did for years. So that’s the house, we moved into the south end of it. And Mom and I didn’t get there until June. And my two younger brothers and I, we spent probably a couple of months in a hotel in Kankakee because they took our furniture, but then it was stacked up so long that our furniture didn’t get there until June. So we spent all this time in a hotel. Mom and, I was the oldest at ten, and two younger brothers which was heartbreaking for Mom. So when she found out it was still going to be another month, probably in May, then we hopped on a bus and took off back to see, to Arkansas, to see her folks. I can remember, Mom was holding my little brother, and then my other brotehr and I took turns sitting on a suitcase in the aisle, and the other one got to sit in the seat next to Mom. So anyway, we got out here mid-June. And I was reading in Dad’s book, and I didn’t realize it, but they gave him a house plenty early, this big A house at 1221 Stevens. They came with a refrigerator and a stove. Nothing else. But they gave the men, there were three things: a bed, a chair, and a dresser. And that was the furniture he lived with from probably early in April or something like that, till we gt here in June. So, I had often wondered about that, and then I was going through my dad’s boko last night and I came across that. I’d always wondered, you know? Our furniture was sitting back there. But of course the trains were used for troop movement. So, got here, and of course there wasn’t a blade of grass or tree in sight. And of course we’re from that beautiful green country back there. And ther ewere no rugs on the stairs. There were three kids in our half of the A house with wooden stairs. And two, one of the men that came out, they were in the other half with two kids. ANd I thought, later, after having my own four kids, my mother must’ve cried a million tears back there with all of the dust, the sand, the noise, living in a house with somebody else with kids racing up and down stairs all the time. But they stuck it out and then lived here--he died in September of ‘88 and she followed him six months later in March of ‘89. But I stayed here, married a guy that was working out on the Project after he came back from the army. And we had four kids. Then they had five granddaughters. Ten great-grandkids and now I have four great-great-grandsons. So we’re all still here after--ever since June of ‘44. So I remember a lot about growing up but not too much. It was a fun time. You never had to worry about--well, we never even thought about worrying about bad goings-on or anything. I think we were probably in especially safe town, if nothing else. But I remember playing out from daylight to dark, never having to worry about going home. You went in if you got hungry. Other than that, you played outside all day. I remember the mosquito sprayers. And I read on--some gal, many years ago, probably 20 years or so ago, started something--I don’t know if you’ve heard of it from Col High--from Richland High--the Sandstorm? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Norton: Okay. About--that is an absolutely fantastic thing to have grown up with all these years. There is so much history brought through. The kids start one subject, and then everyone, from all over the world actually can chime in. And I just wish I had thought to find out just how many people she has on her list, because we get things from China, from Japan. In fact, I have a cousin teaching at a university in Japan. But her dad was hte one that laid out, according to this, Georgia Koda, laid out the Uptown area and then helped draw up the plans and build the Carmichael. And my brother was the first ASB president there, Cecil Bell, Jr. And then he went on to be ASB president at Col High--Richland High. Richland High, it’s a hard thing to break. Franklin: That’s okay. Norton: You knew who I was talking about. Franklin: Yeah. The first time I heard it, I was not familiar, but I’m a seasoned-- Norton: Right, but you’ve heard it a few times now in the years, I’m sure. Right. Uh-huh. So, you know, we ran in the mosquito sprayer. We didn’t know anything. We stayed out and played Annie Annover, throwing balls over houses. Loved going down to the park, to the little swimming pool. I could still remember how cold that Columbia River was, because they just piped that straight into the pool down at Howard Amon Park. ANd you got in line, and I think they blew a whistle when it was time for you to get out. So everybody got out of the pool, ran to the back of the line, visited, until they blew the whistle again, and then the next group of people--because you could spend your day just going in and out of the pool, freezing all the time when you were in it. That was one of my favorite things. You could ride the buses, go where you wanted to. We could ride bikes. It was just a fun time. Like I said, I’m sure Mom cried a million tears with all the dust and all of that. But we lived in that house, then, from June of ‘44. Then in ‘49, my dad was supervisor. He was in--it was a machinist. And he got all kinds of upgrades. Well, he was a backhills country boy, and his dad was a horseshoer. What’s that? Franklin: I thought they called it-- Norton: A blacksmith. A blacksmith. Franklin: yeah. Norton: Uh-huh. So Dad knew all that stuff. So when he came out here there were, even in Kankakee, there were a lot of things that he culd do because he knew tempering the fires and all that stuff. So he did real well there working on things that no one else was used to doing. When he came out here, it was the same kind of thing. In fact, it was funny, he came out here before they had any tool sofr him to be a machinist. So they had all these little whelels and wires and whatever they were, motors, that had to be fixed, but he didn’t have any tool.s So he wrote Mom a letter describig everything he needed and sent it to her with money. And then she went and bought it and mailed it back. So he was here working on the Project with tools sent from Kankakee, Illinois, because this big million dollars worth of Plant didn’t have the tool sfor him to work with for awhile. So I always thought that was one of the funny things that happened. But he was real good at inventing-type things. So he did really well. He was in the steam power plant down there, and he was head over that. He knew when they dug the streets and put in pipes, water pipes, he felt at the time, it was the wrong thing because they were only going to be here five years. So he said, oh, they didn’t have to put sand down for all these big pipes and everything. Well, of course they started wearing out. Well, then they would start having leaks, and the bills for people would go up in the air. And I remmeber reading one, well, what he would do is, he would hae a pretty good idea from seeing where the spike would be on the charts that they had, so they could go and dig down there. And he said eh usually could find the broken pipe, no more than two digs. One took him five digs before they could find it. And then the old hotel at the time, all of the sudden, the guy came comlaining--he was the manager--came complaining to Dad because his electric bill had just spiked all of a sudden. All of a sudden, just outrageously. So Dad went back and looked at all the charts to see, and it was about 2:00 in the morning every day, this thing would just jump skyhigh. So he said to the guy, I dont know what’s happening at 2:00 at your hotel, but something is. So the guy said, well, I’ll find out. He went down, and the guy that was supposed to be cleaning all the floors and stuff, mopping them, he found it was a lot easier to hook his one-inch pipe into the big 700 gallon tank that was for the whole hotel, because he’d been using the little 200 pipe that was meant for the kitchen. And so he was using the big one, that made it a lot faster, easier. So the hotel guy set him straight on that so he could no longer do that. He did that. He worked the steam plant for a long time. In fact, he was there-- Franklin: And this was like the steam plant for the City of Richland. Norton: Uh-huh, right. Blew the whistle everyday at noon. Was one of the things he got to do for many years. In fact, somewhere in this book, I should’ve written that down instead of marking it. But when the plant was finally torn down in ‘65 or--no, it must’ve been much earlier than that. So, anyway, he was doing that. So then after that went down, though, then he went out to stores. So then he spent the rest of his time out there. Franklin: When you say went out to stores, can you-- Norton: That was the big stores building out on, just as you’re coming out into the Project where they used to have all the buses around down there and everyhing, I think. Franklni: Okay. Norton: Yeah. So he was there until he retired in February of ‘75 when he turned--but he felt that when people needed something for something that broke down, they needed it immediately; they didn’t want to have to wait and get it on a list. And so Dad would let them come in with their list of what they needed, pick it up, get the order filled, and take it. Well, this went on for a few years. It wasn’t their rules, but the guys that were in charge never said anything because Dad got along so well with all thepeople and had no problems with them. Got everybody satisfied and happy about it. Well, then he mentioned a name, but I don’t remember it and I wouldn’t say it. But he was just a couple of months or few months or minutes or so before Dad retired in ‘75, a new guy came in and he was going to have it his way. People were going to have to send in an order and in three or four days, it woudl get to them. Well, Dad knew this would not work. So he finally told the guy--oh, and then they came in and took out--there were two telephones, so people could call right to the desk and get the things that they needed ordered and get them out. Well, then one day, some guys came in and started to take the phones out. And Dad said, you’re not going to take those phones out. And they said, well, it’s an order. ANd he says, no, you don’t. So anyway, I guess, he talked to Mr. Big and told him, said, you’re not taking those phones out until I leave in two more weeks. If you want to ruin it after that, you can ruin it. But this is what people need. And this guy says, that’s not according to the rules. And Dad says, well, you either leave those phones when I leave or you get rid of me at the same time. So, they left the phones in for the two weeks till Dad lft, and then after that, they went back to this where people had to send in their list they wanted, wait till it could be fixed up several days later. So he was glad to get out of there by that time. He was a very special person. I would say he’s probably one of the most-liked people here. He got along with people all the time from when he started. That was why he got his first job with DuPont. Because he was friendly with a little lady that ran a grocery store there, and she knew the big guys. Well, Dad and his brother-in-law had gone over there and visited in the store. And that’s when he met my mother. So, when they were just about to give up on ever finding a job, she said, well, you take this over to--and I think the name was Brown--over in employment. You come back tonight and you get the letter that I’m going to write you, and you take it to this guy and only this guy. And Dad worked from then, 1932 or so, until ‘75 without ever losing a day’s pay. And was liked by everybody. He really, like I said, he could fix anything. So he fixed little motors that nobody had been able to figure out. He could--there was one section in here on something when they needed something with a sharp point, well, the metal wasn’t--whatever they do with it, tempered right or something. Well, he knew how to temper it right because he’d been shoeing horses with his dad ever since he was ten years old or so. So he told the guy Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:55:47 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9987 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Steam Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 80 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Betty Norton Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Betty reflects on moving to Richland from Tennessee when her father (Cecil Bell) moved from working with Kankakee Ordnance to Hanford in February 1944. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/28/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. hanford site steam plant https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9929b6d8d9a06ce53f2c9de05d80f158.JPG e9e0a5bfad333a32a583659be9800d7f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffad5af57705d4852e40bd30af70ea14a.mp4 5b9fdfc06f213cf89162c1795cd0a77c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donna Whiteside Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Robert Franklin: Ready? Tom Hungate: Yeah, we’re ready. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Donna Whiteside on April 25, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Donna about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Donna Whiteside: Donna Whiteside. D-O-N-N-A. W-H-I-T-E-S-I-D-E. Franklin: Great. Thank you very much, Donna. So tell me, when did you first come to the Hanford area? Whiteside: 1953. Franklin: Okay. And I know you weren’t working then. Whiteside: Uh, no. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. So can you tell me a little bit more about why you came to the Hanford area? 0:00:46 Whiteside: My dad had a brother-in-law who worked for DuPont, as a matter of fact. And he got him out here from eastern Montana. And Mom and three kids came later. We did not move into Richland right away, because we had to be put on a housing list. So we lived in three different places, as I remember, in West Richland. Franklin: Okay. Now, but your brother-in-law wouldn’t have worked for DuPont in ‘53. He probably worked for GE. Whiteside: Well, he came out with DuPont. But, yeah. Franklin: Came out with DuPont and then stayed during the Cold War expansion of the Site. And then eventually you moved into an A house, right? Whiteside: Yes. The summer before I started kindergarten. Franklin: Okay. And do you know what year that was? Whiteside: ‘53. Franklin: ‘53. Whiteside: It was ‘53, yes. Franklin: And how long did you live in the A house for? Whiteside: Until I was a senior in high school. Franklin: Okay, and what year was that? Whiteside: 1965. Franklin: So your family purchased the house. 0:01:43 Whiteside: Yeah, they were the senior renters, so they had the first opportunity to buy the A house, which they did. Franklin: Okay. Did they convert, or-- Whiteside: No. The A houses, one half had a full basement; one had a half basement. We had the half basement part. So the first thing my mom and dad did was dig out the rest of the basement, take out the coal furnace, and make a TV room and half bath downstairs. Franklin: Okay. And then what about the other half of the A house? Whiteside: We rented it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Whiteside: We rented it. Franklin: And so tell me, what was it like growing up in a--what do you remember about growing up in a government town? 0:02:20 Whiteside: It was great. It was very, very safe. You could walk home alone after dark knowing nothing was ever going to happen to you. It was just, you know. Every so many blocks, there was a little park that you could go and play in. There was a grocery store, a drug store right at the end of this park. It was just fun! Franklin: Because these were designed to be very, almost utopian kind of communities by the architect, with those kinds of things in mind. Whiteside: Mm-hmm, it was, yeah. Franklin: The parks and the kind of decentralized shop—there were stores in each neighborhood and everything. And were your parents, overall, happy with the quality of the housing, or--? Whiteside: I think so. I think so. Franklin: So you said you lived in that house until you graduated. How long did your parents stay in the house? 0:03:12 Whiteside: We all moved when I was a senior in high school. My dad passed away when I was young. But we all moved out to north Richland the year I was a senior in high school. I didn’t graduate until ‘66. It was the first part of my senior year that we moved. Franklin: Oh, okay. And why did you move? Whiteside: Because my mother wanted to. And our house had been sold to a couple that lived across the street on the same street we did. And they did convert it into one house. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did you move into newer construction, then? Whiteside: Brand-new house. Franklin: In north Richland. Whiteside: Brand-new house. Franklin: Like a ranch style? Whiteside: Yeah, sort of. But it did have a basement. Franklin: Okay, okay. So you said your father passed away pretty early. Whiteside: He was 35. Franklin: Oh, wow! Can I ask how he-- Whiteside: He either had a fishbone or chicken bone get caught in his throat. Franklin: Oh, my. Sorry, I’m not laughing, that’s just such a-- Whiteside: No, no, no, no. I understand. He actually bled to death is what happened. Franklin: Wow. Was he alone when this happened, or--? Whiteside: He stayed home from work, which was very unusual for my dad to do. My mom did not work. So she was home with him. Franklin: Okay. 0:04:18 Whiteside: The weird part about this was I was coming home from school—I was at Carmichael at the time, which was then a junior high rather than a middle school. An ambulance came down the street and, I said to the gal that I was walking home with, my mom’s in that ambulance. And she was. And she stuck her head out the door and said what was going on. So I just continued on home. Franklin: Wow. What did your father do for General Electric? Whiteside: He was an assistant engineer. But what he did, I have no clue, because nobody what anybody did, you know? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. And after your father passed away, did your mother go work as well, or--? Whiteside: Um. Yes, but not right away. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: She got Dad’s VA and his social security and all of that stuff. The VA is what put three kids through college. Franklin: Oh wow. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: So your father was in World War II then. Whiteside: Yes, he was. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: Yeah, he was. Franklin: And so, you left Richland, then, in the late ‘60s, mid-to-late-’60s? Whiteside: Yeah, I went to college. Franklin: And where’d you go to college? Whiteside: The first term, I went to Bellingham. Franklin: Western Washington? Whiteside: Yes, Western. Franklin: And then where? Whiteside: Then I came back and went to CBC, and then I graduated from Eastern in Cheney. Franklin: Okay. And you got your degree in social work. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: Right, with a minor in psychology. And tell me how you came back to work for Hanford. 0:05:40 Whiteside: Well, I interviewed for several different jobs in the social work field. Besides wanting me to have a master’s degree, they wanted five years of experience. Well, I could’ve gone back to school and gotten the master’s degree, but I still would lack the five years of experience. I had an uncle on Patrol at the time, and he said, why don’t you send in your application or get ahold of—whoever, I don’t remember even who it was I needed to get ahold of. But that’s what I did. And at the time, they were hiring minorities, and they considered women minorities on Patrol. Franklin: Sure, because women would’ve probably been very underrepresented-- Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: --in the patrol force. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: And so--okay. So you send in your resume, and can you walk me through the process as how you got on? 0:06:28 Whiteside: Well, I went down to have—I went down to the Federal Building, in the basement, because that’s where Patrol headquarters was at the time. I interviewed with the assistant chief, whose name was Paul Beardsley. Next thing I knew, I was on Hanford Patrol. I do have to tell you, though, at the same time I was also offered a job as a Sunnyside policeman. Franklin: And how come you chose Hanford Patrol? Whiteside: Well, I figured I would probably be safer than I would in Sunnyside. And the chief in Sunnyside had a few concerns about the fact that I was a female and that I’d have a male partner and things could get out of hand with his wife or whatever. You know. Just because we’d be on night shift together. So I said, okay, I’m just going to go to Hanford. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure. That’s—given the time, the era, that would be a possible--a concern that a male chief would have. I guess we’ll put it that way. So you came on in what year? Whiteside: January of ‘74. Franklin: Okay. and were there other women working at Patrol at that time? 0:07:37 Whiteside: I was like the fifth one hired. Franklin: Okay. Do you know around what time the first woman was hired for Patrol? Whiteside: I think they were hired just prior, like sometime in late ‘73. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Whiteside: Because we all had to go through x amount of training and some of them were still in training when I started. Franklin: Oh, okay. And so, describe working for Hanford Patrol. What were your expectations and did it meet them, and how was it—some of the challenges you might have faced? Whiteside: Well, the biggest challenge was being a female. Franklin: Okay. 0:08:12 Whiteside: They had to convert dressing rooms. They had to convert restrooms. They had to remodel men’s uniforms so women could wear them. Franklin: Was that already being done by the time that you came on? Whiteside: Yeah, it was, it was. Franklin: How were you received by your male colleagues and then the Hanford workers at large? Whiteside: Most—most of the patrolmen were fine with it. A few of them—you know, you don’t need to be here. You need to be at home. Franklin: Ah. Were they older patrolmen that had that--or was it just maybe-- Whiteside: Most of them were older. Franklin: --that’s just how they had been brought up? Whiteside: Most of them were older. A couple of them was due to their religion. Franklin: Ah. Whiteside: Enough said. [LAUGHTER] I mean! Franklin: Sure. No, that’s fine. Whiteside: Enough said. Franklin: Yeah, right. And what about the employees at large? Did you ever receive any kind of criticism or anything from them? Whiteside: No. No. Franklin: You were just another-- Whiteside: I was just there. Franklin: You were just there. 0:09:21 Whiteside: But I will tell you, I would meet some of them in public, and they’d look at me and they’d say, you look familiar. I should know you. And I’d say, yeah, and if I put on a uniform, then you’d know who I was, wouldn’t you? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. And were you firearms trained? Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: You carried a gun? Whiteside: We carried .38s at the time. Franklin: Oh, wow. Whiteside: And we had to qualify with .38s, shotguns, and M-16s during the day and at night, at least once a year. Franklin: Wow, M-16s. Whiteside: Uh-huh, M-16s. Franklin: So fully automatic weapons. Whiteside: They were, but we didn’t shoot them fully automatic. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, that’s quite, that’s very--that’s impressive. Whiteside: And I was usually the last one to qualify. Franklin: Yeah? 0:10:05 Whiteside: Because my mindset was, we can’t use these until you’ve tried everything else in the world, you cannot draw a gun and use it. And it’s like, then why do I have to learn how to shoot these stupid things? But I did. Franklin: Okay, right, right. Yeah. But your service piece would’ve been a .38. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: Right? Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: Where were you stationed out of for patrol? Whiteside: Mostly out in the outer areas. I was headquartered out of 2-East and that covered East Area and al the 100 Areas. Of course, all the reactors but N Reactor were down at the time. But there was still a few checks that we had to make on the back shifts. Franklin: On the what shifts? Whiteside: Back. Graveyard and swing. Franklin: Oh, graveyard and swing, okay. Whiteside: Yeah, and of course weekends. Franklin: Wow. Okay. And what were some of your regular duties, besides the checks? Did you-- Whiteside: We had to let people in and out the gates. We had to check classified files. There were various gates and things that we had to check. You know, just being alert. Franklin: Just being alert? Whiteside: Yeah. And that’s sometimes really hard on graveyard. Franklin: Oh, I imagine. I imagine so. Whiteside: There was a tower on the river at N Area that was manned also. Franklin: Did you ever man that? 0:11:18 Whiteside: Oh, yeah. Because you rotated. Most of the time you rotated every two hours, unless you were at a barricade, and then it was like four hours. Franklin: What was the most unusual thing that you saw working on patrol? Whiteside: I can’t say there anything very unusual. It was pretty—it was pretty much like night watchman work. Other than letting people in and out of the gates and checking the files and stuff, it was pretty much just routine. Franklin: I guess that’s good that—I guess unusual on patrol is probably a bad thing, usually, right? Whiteside: Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Was there ever any kind of humorous or anecdotal incidents that you saw while doing these duties? Whiteside: Well, I can tell you what happened to me one time. Franklin: Okay. 0:12:00 Whiteside: Once I got my Q clearance, I had to go with various patrolmen—and it was usually on the backshifts, so I would know all the checks. Because being the youngest person, seniority-wise, I could be sent to 300 Area, to 400 Area, to the Federal Building, to 2-West or whatever, to cover for vacations. So I had to learn all of the outer area stuff. We went into a building in West Area, I think it was 222-S, I’m not sure. But it was an S building; that’s all I know. The file we had to check was in a zone where we had to put on a lab coat and shoe covers. So, I followed the patrolman into the change room. Well, it was the man’s change room. And somebody looked at me and said, you have awfully long hair to be a guy. And I said, well, I’m not a guy. And he said, well, then you’re in the wrong change room. Anyway. I continued with my lab coat and shoe covers and we went and checked the file and we came back out. The patrolman said, now, you go in there and you drop off your shoe covers and your lab coat and then meet me on the outside. So I went through the women’s change room on the way out. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, thank you. And so how long did you work as the watchman, night thing--? Whiteside: I was on patrol for eleven-and-a-half years. And then I went to the PUREX building and helped with the special authorization badges and the security. Then I went back to 100-N. Franklin: So that whole first eleven-and-a-half year chunk, was it pretty much the same kind of duties? Whiteside: Yeah, it was. Franklin: Considering that you didn’t train for patrol work in college, was there anything about patrol work that surprised you or stuck out to you in any way? Whiteside: Not really. Franklin: No? Whiteside: Mm-mm. Franklin: Did you find it pretty satisfying to do, given that it wasn’t something that you had trained for initially? Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. And so then you said you went to PUREX. Whiteside: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And what did you do at PUREX? Was that work different from the-- 0:14:02 Whiteside: It was like clerk work, but they also had one section of the building, you had to have a special badge to get into. So all the people that wanted badges for that area, the paperwork was sent to me. Franklin: Okay, and then-- Whiteside: Then I sent it to the manager of that section for him to sign off on. Franklin: Okay. So it was much more of a cler--still security-related, but more-- Whiteside: Right, but more clerical. Franklin: More clerical. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: And did you enjoy that work more or was it nice to be in a single spot or-- Whiteside: Well, it was day shift. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Was-- Whiteside: It was day shift. Of course, on the last couple years of patrol, I was on days, too. But, yeah, it was just—you knew it was Monday through Friday and-- Franklin: No covering for vacations. Whiteside: No covering for vacations. [LAUGHTER] Any of that kind of stuff. Franklin: How many people worked at the PUREX facility at that time? Whiteside: You know, I really don’t know. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: I really do not know. Franklin: I guess, by that time, though, you had a pretty good idea of what was happening, what was going on at Hanford, what was being made, and why. 0:15:05 Whiteside: Yeah, I guess it got a lot more open, you know, than it had been when I was growing up. Franklin: Sure, sure. And how did you—did you feel safe working at Hanford? Whiteside: Oh, yeah. I mean, I grew up here. Didn’t bother me at all. Franklin: Okay. Even from the kind of--you know, because Hanford wasn’t isolated from political or international incidents. So did any of the events in the Cold War ever cause you to worry, you know, or did you ever sense a kind of heightened sense of anxiety? Whiteside: Mm-mm. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: Nope. Franklin: And so you said, after—how long did you work at PUREX for? Whiteside: You know, I don’t know for sure. Because the last five years was PUREX and then it was back to N Area. And I can’t tell you where the division came. Franklin: Oh, sure. By the time you worked at PUREX, were the attitudes towards female employees in security and patrol, had they largely changed by then? Do you think people were more used to seeing females in the-- Whiteside: Oh, yeah. They were. Franklin: --in those kinds of roles? Whiteside: Because we had female lieutenants and all of that by that time. Franklin: Do you ever think about it or does it ever surprise you how kind of quickly that change happened, from no women in that workforce to women being kind of commonplace or not out of the ordinary? Whiteside: Well, I guess, being there, it really didn’t. Franklin: And so you said for the last part, you went to work at N Reactor. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: And what kind of job was that, what kind of duties? 0:16:34 Whiteside: Basically I worked for the security guy at N Area. I was in charge of all the keys for all the 100 Areas and for Rattlesnake Mountain. Franklin: Oh, okay. Whiteside: So if somebody needed a key, they had to come to me to check it out. Franklin: Did you approve those requests, or--what was that process like? Whiteside: Well, if they needed the key—I can’t remember exactly, but probably the guy or the woman that was ahead of that had said, okay, so-and-so needs a key to get in here. Of course, we’d have to call the locksmith if we were shorthanded on keys or whatever then. Franklin: What were the kinds of reasons that people would need keys, especially to go up to like Rattlesnake Mountain or into a reactor that had been shut down? Whiteside: Just for safety checks, more or less. Franklin: Safety checks. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: Same with Rattlesnake? Because was that facility still active when you were doing patrol? Whiteside: No, it wasn’t. Franklin: Okay. 0:17:29 Whiteside: It was still there. And it could’ve been made active, but it wasn’t. But it’s quite a facility. Franklin: Why don’t you tell me a little bit about it. Whiteside: It had sleeping quarters; it had a kitchen; it had big meeting rooms. Because that was where all the important people would’ve gone, if something had happened at Hanford. Franklin: Right. Whiteside: They would’ve bussed them up there. But it was a neat building. It really was. Franklin: So you went inside of it? Whiteside: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Was that part of your patrol duties? Whiteside: Well, no, that was not. One of our checks, if you worked in the 300 Area was to go up there and check the gates. But since I had the keys, just before I quit--I got to retire when I was 42 years old--we, a bunch of us, decided we wanted to go up there. Because I had the keys, we got the okay to go. Franklin: Oh, okay. So this was kind of like before you retired kind of checking it out kind of thing. Whiteside: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Did you socialize mostly with people from--that worked at Hanford? Whiteside: We did, because my husband and I were both on the same shift. Franklin: Oh, so did your husband work patrol as well? Whiteside: No, no. He ran N--he was one of the shift managers at N Reactor. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you kind of worked together for the last-- Whiteside: Well, we--no. When I went back to N, he’d retired. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. 0:18:49 Whiteside: Westinghouse was coming in and the benefits he would get from UNC were better than those he would’ve gotten from Westinghouse, and he was 62 years old. Franklin: Oh, okay. Whiteside: So it was an optimum time for him retire. Franklin: Sure, yeah, a little earlier retirement and-- Whiteside: Yeah. For the most part, we worked the same shift. So our family, essentially, was the shift you were on. Because you had long changes together, you had days off between swing and days together. So we did a lot of things with them. Franklin: You say your family, you mean like your work family? Whiteside: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. So the people you socialized with were the people that were on the same shift. Whiteside: For the most part. Franklin: Would you say that was pretty common throughout-- Whiteside: I think it was. Franklin: --all the shift people, like graveyard people were associated with the graveyard people? 0:19:35 Whiteside: I think so. There were some straight day people that we did things with, too. But for the most part, if you wanted to do anything in the middle of the week, it was with the people that you were on that shift with, because we all had that day off. Franklin: Sure, sure. Whiteside: You know. Franklin: That makes sense. And did you meet your husband working out at the Hanford Site? Whiteside: I met my husband when his daughter and I started kindergarten at Spalding. Franklin: Oh, okay. So your husband was-- Whiteside: 23 years older than me. Franklin: Okay! And how did you become involved with your husband? Were you working out at the Site at the time? 0:20:04 Whiteside: yes, I was. I got my clearance, and the night that the patrolman took me to N Area to show me the checks, he told me that he thought Bob Whiteside was the shift manager. And I said, well, did he used to live in Richland and he’s got two kids and he moved back to Sunnyside and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And of course, the patrolman didn’t know. So he went into his office and he was not there. So, another guy--I don’t remember who it was--took me around and showed me the various parts of N Area. When we got back to Bob’s office, he was there. And somebody had told him that I was looking for him. Of course, he admitted later, he had no clue who I was. To me, he looked the same as my friend’s dad, 20-some years before. But I didn’t look the same to him, of course. [LAUGHTER] I mean, you know? Franklin: Well, sure, yeah. So that’s when you kind of I guess reconnected with him. Whiteside: Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. Franklin: And then you guys started dating at some point. Whiteside: Mm-hm, yup. Franklin: Interesting. And so you retired when your husband did, right? Whiteside: No, I worked for three more years. Franklin: Oh, you worked for three more years. Whiteside: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Okay. And that was that split-time between PUREX and N. Whiteside: And N, yeah. Franklin: So why did you choose to retire from Hanford? 0:21:28 Whiteside: He wanted to sell our house. We had an RV and he wanted to travel and see part of the country. And I was all for it. Franklin: Okay. Whiteside: So we did that. Our house sold and we moved into the RV and covered most everything on our side of the Mississippi. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did you live in an Alphabet—the house you sold, was it a newer construction? Whiteside: It was new. It was on Spengler, right across the street from the 7-Eleven that’s on Spengler. Franklin: Oh, okay, gotcha. Whiteside: And you know what used to be where the 7-Eleven is? A drive-in theater. Franklin: Oh, wow. Whiteside: Yeah. Franklin: Interesting. Yeah, kind of a shame that those went away. Whiteside: Yeah, they were fun. They were fun. Franklin: Yeah. I’ve heard. It’d be nice if they could come back. They’re almost extinct now. Whiteside: They are, yeah, and that’s too bad. Franklin: Yeah. And so eventually, though, you came back to the Tri-Cities, obviously. Whiteside: Yes. Franklin: And why did you choose to come back to the Tri-Cities? Whiteside: Bob always knew that eventually, I wanted to come home. Franklin: Okay. 0:22:26 Whiteside: And I wanted to come home with him, not after something happened to him. So in ‘05, well, can we move home now? And he was 80 years old at the time. He said, yeah, it’s time. He was from Sunnyside, so essentially he was home, too. So he said, okay, you better call a realtor. So I did. And we bought a house. Franklin: Okay. And did the rest of your family still live here in the area? Your mother and-- Whiteside: My mother did, yes. My sister and the oldest of my brothers were in Spokane. One was in Salem; one was in [UNKNOWN] California at the time. Franklin: Okay. And so is your husband still with us, or is he-- Whiteside: No, he passed away almost five years ago. Franklin: Oh, okay. And so what have you been doing since you came back? 0:23:13 Whiteside: I volunteer at the cancer center; I volunteer at the book room at the library. I do all the cards for the local Goldwing motorcycle chapter. I wear about three hats at church. I belong to the Cancer Guild. Franklin: So you’re keeping busy in retirement. Whiteside: I keep busy, yes, I do. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: As just about every retired person I know seems to be more busy than when they worked. Whiteside: Oh, believe me, it’s true. It’s true. Franklin: Were you—I’m wondering, this is probably going back a ways, but do you remember when JFK came to dedicate N Reactor? Whiteside: I do. I do. Franklin: Did you go out-- 0:23:52 Whiteside: I was not let out of school. My parents didn’t want me to get out of school. But I knew he was here. Franklin: Oh, okay. Did you have friends that went to see him? Whiteside: I probably did, but I can’t remember. Franklin: Okay. Were there any other events or incidents that happened in the Tri-Cities or Hanford that happened when you were a child or later on when you worked at Hanford? Whiteside: No. Just regular stuff. Franklin: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about living or working--living in the Tri-Cities and working at Hanford during the Cold War? 0:24:31 Whiteside: Well, I still think it was a very, very safe place. I think that perhaps, if it wasn’t DOE at the time, whatever it was, it would’ve been a little bit more open with what was going on. I think there would be not quite as many negative thoughts, ideas, whatever, about Hanford and Los Alamos and Oak Ridge and all of those. Franklin: So you’re saying, then, that that level of security is kind of—there’s been a legacy cost associated with that. Whiteside: I think so. I think so. Franklin: In terms of people’s maybe mistrust of nuclear. Whiteside: Well, you fear the unknown, and it was unknown. I mean it really was. Franklin: Sure, sure. And then when releases did happen, they were very hushed—you had to kind of pry that information out of them. Whiteside: Yeah, you did. Yeah. Franklin: The level of mistrust grows from the unknown, I guess. Whiteside: Yes, it does. Franklin: Well, Donna, is there anything else you’d like to mention before we close up today? Whiteside: I don’t think so. Franklin: Okay, well, thank you so much-- Whiteside: Thank you. Franklin: --for coming in and interviewing with us. Whiteside: You bet. Franklin: Okay. Great. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:25:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9980 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Patrol 2-East 100 Areas East Area 300 Area 400 Area Federal Building 2-West West Area 222-S PUREX 100-N N Reactor Rattlesnake Mountain Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 71 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donna Whiteside Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Donna Whiteside reflects on moving to Richland when her father moved the family from Montana. Donna worked as a patrolman working graveyard or swing before taking other security related positions until she retired and traveled for sometime in her RV. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/25/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F634eff6a9b7e1a96710e2b8db34c897a.JPG 8f04c3d9db869862b8c052daad298c59 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb29d88f4fdd0a54ab37ae0ab13fc1325.mp4 2ab7a1d9b1c3cde0b5d45a67502f108c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Garrold Lyon Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Garrold Lyon on August 30, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Garrold about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full legal name for us? Gerrold Lyon: It’s Garrold, G-A-double-R-O-L-D. I use F as in Frank as an initial. And Lyon last name, spelled like the cat except a Y instead of an I. Franklin: So L-Y-O-N? Lyon: Yes, sir. Franklin: Great. So, Garrold, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site. Lyon: Well, I was in service in Korea in ‘52 and ‘53. And I had two brothers out here when I got the release from active duty. Actually, I didn’t get a discharge until 1960. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: But I got released from active duty when I got home from Korea. Anyway, I had like brothers out here, so that’s why I come out here. Franklin: What brought your brothers out here? Lyon: Well, my older brother, he kind of worked in the fruit and stuff. But my younger brother, he’s nine years older than me, I come from a family of 13 and I’m the last boy. I have two sisters. Franklin: Wow. Lyon: But he was a tanker driver. I think he logged something like 2 million miles or whatever. Franklin: And did either of your brothers work out at Hanford? Lyon: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. And do you remember what year you came out here? Lyon: That was in ‘54. I come to work out at Hanford in ‘55 in March. Franklin: did you move out to Richland when you came to work at Hanford? Lyon: I did eventually, but at the time I got here, I think--anyway, I lived in my brother’s garage until I got a house. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What year did you move into Richland? Lyon: Well, it had to have been in ‘55, I guess. Franklin: Okay. So Richland was still a government-owned-- Lyon: Yes, right. Franklin: -town when you lived here. Lyon: Yes. I was patrol, and we patrolled Richland somewhat, too, you know. Franklin: And who did you come to work for? Lyon: GE. Franklin: What was it like living in--I wonder if you could describe living in Richland when it was managed by General Electric. Lyon: Well, I was impressed by the water running down the street. Didn’t seem to have any control, as far as watering your lawn or something like that. And then I think we had to pay for our electricity, but that was about the size of it, until they sold out the town. I could’ve went police force or stayed in the Area as a patrolman, which I did. I spent most of the time that I was with GE, I was a patrolman. And about ‘62, I think it was, I got the chance to get on as a utility operator. I had to pass just a test with the interviewer. I got experience as far as charge, discharge and everything-- Franklin: Sorry, I want to back up for a minute. What is a utility operator? Lyon: Utility operator is an understudy for a journeyman operator. Franklin: And what are you operating? Lyon: Well, actually, we would make metal for charge/discharge and we would actually charge it into the unit and as you charge in the unit, the exposed metal that they want drops out in the rear face and then into about 20 foot of water. Franklin: Just to clarify here, we’re talking about--the unit is the reactor? Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: And the charge/discharge is loading new fuel in and older fuel is coming out. Lyon: Right, right. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: Yeah, they had metal that they bring in and they make up the charge. The elevator is down on the floor and it goes clear to the top. So anyway you have a machine and you have like a carrier for one tube and you don’t carry it on your back; I forgot just how they did it. But they had them made up on poles, as far as they had a spacer there that they could only go so far back and then they’d shove the metal in and put a spacer on this side and cap it up. But you had a machine that charged it into the--you just-- Franklin: You mean that pushed the fuel and the spacers in? Lyon: yeah, as I recall, it had a cylinder that would push as you drop it over into it. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: Yeah, the charger that they had perfected enough they could use, anyway, at that time. Yeah. And it was a number of charges that when you go down with your unit, why, they would charge/discharge and then I guess they got a time to keep the unit where it’s activated they got to come up, you know, in a certain time. And the physicists, they figured that out, time-wise. Franklin: Right, they would be doing calculations to figure out which process tube to charge/discharge. Lyon: Right. Franklin: And how long did you do that work for? Lyon: Probably four years. And then I was on the supplemental crew and worked around the clock, you know, A, B, C, D. They were getting close to discharging there before I left. I figured that I better get out if I wanted to stay around. I had a chance to bid on radiation protection and which I got. And I spent 24 years as a radiation protection technologist. I took the national test for that, and passed it in ‘82. I had the book, but I got so rattled here thinking, I’m not going to get over there anyway, I left it in the truck out there. Franklin: Oh, okay. Lyon: But it does have my name in it. That’s the only book that I’ll probably ever have my name in. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So when you were working as a utility operator, which reactors did you work at? Lyon: I worked in most all of them. Because they would come--we were a crew that was coming in and helped the home team, if you will, for that particular reactor. We would do the work that they would normally have to do, I guess. But they always had help for charge/discharge, extra help. Franklin: How many men would it take to do a charge/discharge? Lyon: Well, I suppose two or three could do it. It would have to go in at different times and say--if they were going on charge/discharge, they would have to open the rear face, and they would have to take a monitor and probably three or four utility operators to actually do the work. And you had to suit up in rubber in the rear face. The dose rate was, most of the time, pretty high. You couldn’t--they’d burn you out before you got your job done, and they’d have to send somebody in to replace you. Franklin: How did they--what types of equipment did they use to monitor in the dose rate in the rear face? Lyon: Cutie pie. Franklin: Cutie pie. Did you wear personal dosimetry equipment as well? Lyon: yes, yes. Franklin: What kinds-- Lyon: Oh, it was your badge, and then they had, it’s a little piece of--I can’t describe it right now, but anyway they would run it through where they could expose it and tell about what I’d get. They’d have a source there that exposed, and then you would wear one on you when it was out here all the time, and you took it in the rear face, you just had it covered up so you wouldn’t get it contaminated, you know. Franklin: Yeah. So you said when you were in the rear face, you had to dress up, right? Lyon: Yeah, you had two pairs of whites and one rubber. Franklin: Wow. Could you describe the types of the whites and the rubbers? What types of clothing-- Lyon: Well, you’d put on kind of a white coverall, and they would tape your first pair of gloves on. Then you would put leggings over and tape them to the legs. But you had two pair of those. And your second pair, you’d have to tape your gloves and then you had a glove that was insoluble, if you will. Your first glove was kind of like a doctor’s glove or something, where you’d put them up and tape them. The main thing is you don’t want to come out of there all contaminated. So you’d put on about three pair and then you come out of the rear face and there’s a hamper there where you’d take your raingear off and drop it in there in the step-off pad. Then you’d take your first pair of whites off, and by the time you got the third step-off pad, well, you was pretty well down to your shorts and shirt. Franklin: I imagine all that clothing would be pretty uncomfortable to work in. Lyon: Well, the rear face, as I recall, there’s enough water there that it wasn’t too hot thermally. Franklin: Oh. Lyon: But you had to watch out if one of those slugs would accidentally hit the discharge and hit on the elevator, you’d have a few seconds to get out of there. Otherwise, you’d get a lethal dose. Franklin: Right, because those slugs would be screaming hot. Lyon: Yeah, maybe. Franklin: Radioactively like really, really hot. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: And I imagine that all of that clothing would kind of hurt your dexterity, too, right? Was it hard to move-- Lyon: I don’t remember being--we had wrenches that we had to open the back cap, if you will, and loose them, then you’d pull it out. And they would take the elevator up top before they discharged, of course, and let you out at the top, I believe. I’m not sure now. They may have let you out at the same level, but you had to get the elevator at the top before you started the process. You don’t want a whole lot of hot metal on the elevator. Franklin: Right, right. Yeah. Wow. Lyon: So they’d just drop over into the basin. Franklin: When they got pushed out. Lyon: When they got discharged, yes. Frankin: Was there ever a time where a slug got--you mentioned earlier--when it hit and got on the elevator, you’d only have a few seconds. Did that ever happen? Lyon: Not to my knowledge. Franklin: Okay. Were there any incidences that stand out, accidents or funny things or interesting things, when you were a utility operator? Lyon: Well, I remember the specialist, he would find maybe a spot that he would want to go in. I don’t quite understand why he would stop more or less just for one, but they called it a spline, and on the front, you could do that without your clothing, on the front face. They would run this spline, and as I understand, it was kind of an absorber if you will. I can’t think of the name right now. It would cool that spot that he wanted to. Boron, I think it was. But he would go in that rear face. I’m not clear, really, right now, how come he’d open that up. But it had to be done down where it wouldn’t come out. But I think we’d done that a few times. I remember going in there with him and he was kind of a character. When he went in the rear face--you’d have to wear a mask of course--and he’d have a cigar that he’d cut and put it in his mouth and chew that while he was in. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] What, so smoking a cigar while being in the-- Lyon: You don’t smoke it. He was chewing it. Franklin: Just chewing the cigar. Lyon: Mm-hmm. But he had a full mask and then he was all taped up and your mask is taped, too, so you won’t get any contamination. You have a hood over it. Franklin: Right. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: But he had a spot for the cigar. Lyon: No, he had it in his mouth chewing it. Just chewed it, yeah. Franklin: Interesting. Lyon: I can imagine me trying to chew a cigar for maybe a few minutes or whatever and swallow it. [LAUGHTER] Lyon: Oh, it was--anyway-- Franklin: That doesn’t sound like fun. Lyon: No. Franklin: Backing up a little bit, when you were a patrolman, what areas did you patrol? Lyon: I patrolled in all of them. I started out in B/C, but I was younger on the totem pole, and sometimes I would have to go into another area to relieve a man on vacation or something like that. But like I worked in K-E and K-W, H and F and D and DR, and B/C. I worked in all of them. Franklin: So you really got to go around the whole Site. Lyon: yeah. Franklin: Was there an area that was more difficult or better to patrol than the others? Lyon: I don’t think so. You had about the same routines. You had to patrol from the water facility--there was a tunnel there that goes from there underground over to the unit. One thing, there, in K area that was kind of amusing, especially for new men, they had a coffin and a dummy in it. But first time you seen it, you’re going through there with your flashlight and stuff, and there’s a coffin and stuff. You open it up and they get a good laugh when you get out of there. Franklin: Why was there a coffin? Lyon: I don’t’ know. It’s a prank, I guess. Franklin: Wow. Lyon: That was in K-E, I think it was, or K-W. Franklin: Wow. What was your uniform like as a patrolman? Lyon: Well, they were mainly like you would be on a civilian police force. I wore khakis in the summer, and it was kind of a Woolrich’s part in the winter. And you had a coat, of course, you know, for it. And a hat. Franklin: What kind of weapon did you carry? Lyon: A .38. .38 special, probably. Franklin: Any other interesting incidents that happened while you were on Patrol? Lyon: Well, in our cars, if I was on patrol on traffic or even on your fence car, you had a submachine gun and an M1 rifle in the trunk. And I had a shotgun right beside you there that would--you could unlock it as far as that, take it out. We’d get calls, mainly just for training. A captain would go out and give a location, and you had to see how quick--they clocked you and stuff when you answered to get to the stop that they wanted you to be there. Franklin: Cool. Let me go back to my questions here. And then after the reactors were shut down and you went-- Lyon: radiation protection. Franklin: Yeah, as an RPT, where did you work? Lyon: Well, I worked at D and DR, most of the time, probably. Franklin: Even after it shut down? Lyon: Yeah, you can--well, after it shut down, but--that was before it was shut down, particular--I don’t know, they hauled metal and of course kept security as far as that’s concerned. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: I can’t think of any incidents that happened there, really big, exciting, or anything. Franklin: Where else did you work as a radiation protection technician besides D and DR? Lyon: I worked over in 200 Area. They had kind of a decon thing going there and that was C Farm, I believe, in 200 West. We had pumps there--they had evaporators of course, that was trying to pump off the hotter tanks in the Tank Farm. And they would pump them out and then at a certain level they’d decide that that particular pump had to go. And they would physically go in there and they had to stretch out and they would put down paper and stuff to load that physically on that little boy. And they would kind of tape it up and everything to keep it from dripping. I know one particular one when I think it was B Farm, I’m not sure, but anyway you could track it with a GM from the time you left the gate clear down to the burial ground. We had some interesting work there to get that up and you know went in the burial ground. They tried to use road graders and stuff to get rid of it at first. They done stuff there that they had to go in, maybe, by men just to pick it up. You’d have to suit up to do that, of course. They maybe had to chip the asphalt where it would go down on the road from the evaporator to the burial grounds. Franklin: Oh, wow. Could you describe a typical work day? Lyon: Well, usually if you had a farm, why, you would suit up or you could--in one pair of whites, anyway, to go to the farm. You checked people out and you might have a crane come in to pull the cover off for, maybe PUREX was pumping stuff through there. And you’d have a crew there that would--operators and they would take care of whatever they was maybe wanting to flush or they could get back in operations and cover up the pit. I had one experience, I was at A Farm and we had a crew coming in to take filters from your stack, change them out, your HEPA filters. We would have a greenhouse there to get the people in there, and you had to wear a certain type of mask. Anyway, it was good for where you didn’t have air, fresh air. And you’d have it in a plastic kind of room, if you will. They would take the filter out and box it up and take it off and they’d put a new filter in. I remember getting--I didn’t have the masks with the chemical filter on it. And I tried to go in there and set the men up first. And what I remember, I got a real strong kind of a--anyway. Didn’t take your breath, but you were conscious of it, anyway. I asked the engineer about it, and he said, well, if you can stand it, it wouldn’t hurt you. So I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: If you can stand it, it won’t hurt you? Lyon: Well, I mean, without the mask, I got--it was like you’d maybe inhaled vinegar or something like that, you know? But that’s the only thing that I can remember that I was a little uneasy about, because I thought I probably got a good shot of contamination or--I do have asbestosis in my right lung. And I don’t know exactly where I got that, as far as that’s concerned. But down through the years, why, I helped to decon 222-S lab and we’d just go in there with a crew, like construction. They’d go in and take so much of a dose to clean up whatever they were trying to clean, and we would check them. We’d set dose rates for them to work and keep time. Usually they’d go in and maybe 50 was all they could take at the time. Franklin: 50--? Lyon: Mrem. Anyway, they had gamma pencils they would wear. And plus the badge. There was another badge that you could get, just for the job. We could read that ourselves rather than have to send it down to get it read. We used to ship out metal there that we’d load metal there from the pickup chutes to the storage area. They would out a bucket, say, of metal. They would have a railroad car come in, and you’d take them underwater back to where you could get it in there where you could put the lid on it, the lid was on the container under the water. Anyway, they had a crane there where you could lift it up and they would remove the lead from the train carrier and you’d use your hoist and go over and put it down in there, and they’d put lead on it and you’d have to smear it out after it got--well, when it was covered up, the radiation was pretty well stopped. But you didn’t want to send anything out that was contaminated, you know, going down the road, spreading your contamination where you went, railroad. Franklin: So you’re talking there about taking the fuel out of from underwater and loading them into the train car? Lyon: No, you’d take them out of the water, load them into a bucket-- Franklin: The cask? Lyon: Yeah, a cask, bucket. It’s approximately like this. It held, I think, 350 of the enriched, that’s slugs. And then your U-238, it’s a slug probably about like that. And the number was less because of space. But they shipped both of them. You didn’t pass anything over the enrichment with something that might react. Yeah. They had that pretty well figured out. We had pretty good supervision as far as that was concerned. The radiation protection was, well, you had authority to stop the job if you thought it was getting out of hand. Franklin: Did you ever have to do that? Lyon: I don’t remember any particular time, but we had, sometimes, especially with construction, they wanted to get the job done, sometimes they were reluctant to come out when their time was up. Franklin: Oh, you mean come out of a zone where they would be getting dose. Lyon: Yeah. As far as when you shipped those cans in the railroad car, well, they have enough metal or stuff that would stop anything from coming through the side to speak of anyway. And the lead would be--I think they had kind of a pressure--I mean, wrench that you could tighten up a bolt to the caps to hold them down. I don’t know how far those railroad cars went, as far as that’s concerned. I just--I personally loaded them and I don’t remember bringing them in. Most of their metal that they charged in was U-238, which you could handle with your hands, you know, before they put it into the unit. You had your enrichment in the core that would fission and start the process. Franklin: What were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Lyon: Well, I worked at 233, and it was contaminated with alpha. We had to dress maybe two or three pair and come out the same way. You had to be careful, because it seemed like I had the pam, you know about that, that’s kind of just for an instrument--for alpha? And you’d have to check over them physically, you know, before they could come out and remove any clothing that was contaminated. If they were contaminated, you had to decon them. Franklin: What was the decon process like? Lyon: Well, they would send you to the shower, and if you could wash it off where it was nothing detectable with the pam, and your beta gamma, your GM, if those two contaminants, you didn’t detect on the person, well, you call them clean. If you couldn’t clean them, well, you send them downtown and they went through a process down there. Franklin: What about rewarding? What was the most rewarding aspect of your time at Hanford? Lyon: Well, I kind of liked it when I completed a job that was satisfactory. Believe it or not, I have had a few compliments anyway in my history of being a radiation monitor. I was a lead operator--lead monitor, rather--for probably about 12 years of my last years of service. I have relieved my supervisor when he went on vacation. That was in C Area. They were deconing kind of a silo, but it went down. We worked off of two-by-twelve, and they would try and decon the walls of the stuff there. I had a makeshift elevator that was like a two-by-twelve and they’d let you down, and you had a rope with a suit on in case you fell off of it, why, it wouldn’t let you go to the bottom. Franklin: Wow. Sorry. The bottom of what? Lyon: Well, it was kind of an inverted silo. Instead of going up, it was down. Franklin: Okay, got you. What are some of your memories of major events in the Tri-Cities’ history, such as plants shutting down or starting up? Lyon: I can’t remember any real problems. They had that pretty well--physicists figured out the time that they were coming up. When they were shutting down, they dropped the verticals and it would pull out part of your control rods. And when they’d put them in, rather, to shut down. Franklin: I guess the question is more orientated towards not the physical act of reactor shut down or startup, but when, in the late ‘60s, when the decision was made to actually permanently shut down and deactivate the reactors. I imagine, was that of concern in Richland and the community? Was there a worry about jobs? Lyon: I don’t think so. It seemed like they would lay off and then they would hire. I don’t know, it seemed like it was kind of up and down. Franklin: Yeah. When did you retire from Hanford? Lyon: I retired in ‘89 at 58. 58 years. I mean, I was 58 years old. Franklin: Years old, oh okay. So you retired, really, right when the production mission ended. Lyon: Yeah. Well, N Area was still running, and I think, maybe one of the Ks or both Ks ran for a while. But, like, B and C and D and DR and F, H, most of those were shut down. Franklin: Was there a big worry about when the Cold War ended about what would happen to Richland and Hanford? Lyon: I don’t know. I was looking for another job. And I found--I got on with radiation protection. So I had it there as long as I--had I wanted to stay, I could’ve stayed. But, in fact, I got called back when I was 80 years old to go out to HAMMER. I was changing irrigation, believe it or not, in the field, and the phone rang. The guy was on the phone, said he wanted to work out a salary or a number, anyway. And I’d checked with construction to see what they were paying. Anyway, I told him what I could get for construction, and it was more or less $33 an hour, with $3 going towards your insurance. And he said, well, how about $35? And I said, okay. But I got to thinking later, I could’ve probably got $40. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And what did you do at HAMMER? Lyon: In what? HAMMER? Franklin: What did you do at HAMMER? Lyon: Well, they have a mockup, you know, of like your hoods. It’s the next thing to being the actual thing, if you will. They got rooms there like where they have supposedly hot trash and hoods where they work in, too, in the labs. These are all clean, as far as that’s concerned. And you take people in there, make them dress up to a code, like they were actually going in and doing the job. And you go in and you give them a false reading, maybe. You know, because it’s clean. But you take your cutie pie in there and measure it and tell them like, it’s reading four or five rad or something like that. Anyway, you give them a talk-to first, and you try and impress them with the way they dress and the job that they’re doing. And then you take them through and let them do the job. And then you grade them. You can flunk them, or you can pass them. Franklin: So you were doing RPT training? Lyon: Yeah. Well, I was an RPT then. And I would just evaluate the people that come in. They have to pass a test, radiation, like a test for--to work out there. If they can’t pass that test, why, they have to give it another hitch, or else they probably have to move from their job. Franklin: What events or incidents happened at Hanford while you were working there that stand out to you? Lyon: Well, Dash-5 had their problem while I was out there. And they had a problem there at 222-S. They had contaminant in their pipe, their fresh air pipe became contaminated and some people got a dose there that they shouldn’t have. Franklin: Wow. Lyon: You can see the man on TV, I think, still show him. He could probably sit down and breathe on a GM or a pam or whatever and see the needle move by what he exhaled or whatever. Franklin: Do you remember the McCluskey incident? Lyon: That’s what I was talking about. Franklin: The Dash-5? Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: Were you near there when that happened? Lyon: No. What I heard is there was a burial there and it had a drip, drip, and it got so much, why, it would go critical. I think he was right there when it did. Franklin: What about when--did you go to see JFK when he came to visit in 1963? Lyon: I did not. I don’t know whether I was on shift at the time. I worked around the clock a lot of the times. I’d be on graveyard for seven days and then I would have--well, from Friday morning until Wednesday afternoon off. And then I would work swing for seven days. And then I would have two days off, and go on graveyard. That’s the way it went. Franklin: Wow. What was it like living in Richland in the 1950s when it was still a government town? Lyon: Well, I didn’t have any problems. I was a patrolman as far as that’s concerned. I done my job. We would patrol Richland, as far as that’s concerned. I could’ve stayed, had I wanted to become a policeman. But-- Franklin: What type of housing did you live in? Lyon: I lived in a prefab, two-bedroom prefab on 1613 Mahan. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember any particular community events? Lyon: Any ex-what? Franklin: Any particular community events? Lyon: Well, the thing that I remember is the pump that they pulled from the evaporator, they didn’t have it wrapped up good so it contaminated quite a bit of area there that we ended up digging up a little bit of blacktop before we could get it all cleared. Franklin: Okay. Lyon: But I think mainly it was fairly quiet. Franklin: Sure. [COUGH] Oh, excuse me. Could you describe the ways in which secrecy and security at Hanford impacted your work? Lyon: Well, when I was on patrol, you was always looking for something that, maybe they had left out on their desk. You went through the offices and if you found something that should’ve been secured, why, you called them and they either come out and took care of it or else we took it up to headquarters and they wrote it up. That’s about all I know about security, as far as that’s concerned. People were responsible for what they were working with, and they weren’t supposed to leave it laying out so somebody could just come along and look at it. And I wouldn’t have any idea what a lot of that was about, as far as that’s concerned. Just maybe concerned with the work or, I don’t kind of a secret that they had there. You just had to be careful what you talked about. Franklin: Did people talk about what they did? When you’d meet them, and you knew they worked at Hanford? Or were people secretive about their jobs, or were you secretive about your job? Lyon: Yeah, physically, I’d talk to, especially people that I worked with, you know. Most people in Richland were connected some way there, first off, anyway. Franklin: Did you ever talk about your job to your family? Lyon: Huh? Franklin: Did you ever talk about your job to your family or friends? Lyon: Oh, probably to my wife, yeah. But I don’t think I divulged any classified material-- Franklin: Sure, sure. I wasn’t implying that. Lyon: Oh. Franklin: So you recently took a B Reactor tour, right? Lyon: Yes. Franklin: What was it like to take a tour to B Reactor now that it’s a museum? Lyon: Well, I sat down in the chair and got my picture taken by--I had some people out here, relatives. I think I may have sat in that chair once. I was by no means a reactor operator, but I have sat at the board a little bit. But under supervision. Because you don’t go in there and just start operating; you have to take it slow and--same way with charge/discharge. You have to get the knack, otherwise you won’t drop that metal in, you’ll be doing more damage to the metal than you should. Franklin: What does it mean to you that B Reactor is now a national park? Lyon: I think it’s nice. They got it all cleaned up and they can see. As far as the lecture, they could be a little bit more amplified sound or something in there where you could hear better. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That’s a-- Lyon: I’m a little hard of hearing anyway. Franklin: That’s a common piece of feedback we get. We’re still working on it. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: So my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Lyon: Well, it was some of the best money that I made, so I really looked at it as a good deal for me. The only thing I was trying to keep myself clean and not get polluted, you know? That’s about the size of it. I enjoyed the money. As far as that’s concerned, it was a decent place to work, I thought. I have two boys, and my youngest boy is going to retire the 20th of next month. He has 40 years as an electrician out there. He’s going to go to HAMMER, if you will, and teach electrical, maybe three to five days a week, when he retires. He’s talking about just--he gets a wage for that, and then they don’t--well, I guess they can give him insurance, too, if they want him bad enough. But he went through a training there in Yakima where they have the training for electricians and stuff. Then he come out here and--it’s Garry Lyon, and he’s 60. Franklin: Oh, wow. How do you--sorry, I guess I have one more question that I just kind of thought of. How do you feel about your work contributing to the growth of nuclear weapons and proliferation of nuclear weapons of the Cold War? Lyon: Well, I think we had to do it. I still think we’re--well, politics there--but one of them sold Russia some of our stockpile of whatever, you know, uranium, whatever. And they need that, I guess, if they’re going to make bombs. I don’t know whether they’re so advanced now that--it was bombs that we dropped. By the way, did they have--I thought that was a Fat Man and a thin man, but there was a woman here the other day, said it was a Fat Man and a Little Boy. Franklin: That--yes, there was, apparently--it’s Fat Man and Little Boy. There was a Thin Man, which was a developmental plutonium gun weapon, but it didn’t work. Lyon: Oh, I see. Franklin: So they went with--because the uranium was a gun-type bomb. Adn then Fat Man was the plutonium implosion bomb. So there was a little bit--but it was just a development, and it never saw the light of day. Lyon: I see. Well, I disputed her a little bit. I said, I thought it was a Fat Man and a Thin Man, and I’d never heard about the Little Boy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: They’re all kind of funny names for the weapons. Well, Garrold, thank you so much for taking the time to come and interview with us today. Lyon: Okay. I have one more boy out there that, he’s an engineer for, well, trying to do the solidification, you know? Franklin: The vitrification. Lyon: Yeah. And he’s 62. Franklin: Wow. You’re kind of a Hanford family. Lyon: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Well, that’s great. Well, Garrold, thank you for taking the time to come in and interview with us. Lyon: You bet. Franklin: Okay. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:55:46 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9986 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Hanford Patrol A Farm D DR K-E K-W C Farm B Farm 200 Area 200 West 222-S lab HAMMER Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Garrold Lyon Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Garrold Lyon talks about his time working in Hanford Patrol and at various reactor sites and tank farms. He talks about his sons that still work at Hanford. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08/30/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F42af466f014b615aae8ad77bcb4e6927.JPG 697aa5d799157fbcf33e7ff2b8b8cab9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carlos Leon Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: All right, red light’s on. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Carlos Leon on October 5, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Carlos about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Carlos Leon: Carlos Leon. That’s my full name; never got a middle name. C-A-R-L-O-S L-E-O-N. Franklin: So, Carlos, when and where were you born? Leon: I was born in 1953 in Toppenish. Toppenish Memorial Hospital. Franklin: And what had brought your family to Toppenish? Leon: Oh, golly. My grandparents were all born in Mexico. My dad in Texas; my mom in Kansas. And then my ma’s parents moved to Toppenish early ‘40s. Then my dad’s parents moved while my dad was in the service. When he moved back, he moved back to Toppenish. Then making a long story short, that’s where they met. Franklin: And were both of those families in agriculture? Leon: Yeah, they worked the fields. They worked the fields. My grandparents, my parents and stuff, they worked the field. My dad had a trucking firm that, you know, so we hauled potatoes and peas and all kinds of produce. And that was our summer job, working out in the fields, or in the orchards and stuff with my mom or something like that. So we were always--we were always busy. So a lot of the times, really, though--like when you worked, like the potatoes. It’s hot, middle of the summer, and you’d work basically as soon as the sun rose till 10:00 in the morning. All these rows of sacks of potatoes up and down the rows and stuff and everything else. And they’d put them on the trucks, and that’d be the end of the workday. But it was a long and hot workday type of thing. So we got the afternoon as kids to really actually be kids, too, at the same time. Franklin: And is fieldwork what brought your grandparents out of Mexico? Leon: Well, my-- Franklin; Did they ever talk about it? Leon: Well, my grandfather on my dad’s side worked in the salt mines in Kansas. You’ve heard of the famous salt mines of Kansas, Lands, Kansas. And then my grandfather on my dad’s--my grandfather, my dad’s father worked the railroads in Texas. So my dad grew up in Georgetown, Texas. So that was--yeah, so, he has a couple sisters, so they eventually moved to I think Montana it was, and then eventually back to Toppenish, Washington. Franklin: What was it about Toppenish that drew your family there? Leon: Oh, golly. Well, agriculture, really. My mom’s family settled in, I guess, migrant cabins at the Golding farms in Yakima. It was the biggest hop ranch in the world at one time. I don’t know if it still is or not. So they had cabins and stuff there and eventually they had to sell the house about four blocks away. I didn’t know my grandfather. I was three years old when he died. But my grandmother, his mom, lived with us and nine kids and then my other grandparents lived only like four or five blocks away. So we were very close and they all knew each other real well. All my aunts and uncles, actually, from both sides of the family know each other. Yeah, it’s really seamless in a lot of ways. So we had a big family and so, yeah, I was very fortunate. We didn’t have much, but we had a lot at the same time. Franklin: Mm-hmm, a lot of family members and family gatherings, relationships. Leon: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And it was Mexican culture, also. So you know, my grandparents didn’t speak any English, so. Hence you heard me speaking Spanish at the Sacajawea thing, Heritage Days. Franklin: Oh, that was really wonderful. The kids were like-- Leon: Oh, I enjoy that tremendously. Franklin: They really dug that. Leon: I give credit to my parents on all that. My parents were very outgoing and they stressed education and they stressed making people comfortable. That was the biggest thing, really. Franklin: Did they--did your parents want you--I know a lot of times with immigrant families, the children are often not taught their parents’ language; they want them to learn the language of their adopted country. Leon; Well, no, you know, my parents never really said one way or another. My older brother and my younger brother, Rudi, after me, like the first three boys, we kept it fairly, whatever. But the thing is, we were never educated in it. We didn’t read it; we didn’t write it. We spoke to our grandparents with it, and it was all around us with our extended family and stuff, people that visited my parents and that type of thing. So, you learn the, what do you call it, the morays, the norms, of the culture. With the fiestas and that type of thing. And I grew up with the food and when I went to college, I told people, I had to learn how to use a fork. I really did. Because it was just tortillas. And to this day, gimme a tortilla and beans and some rice, and I’m happy. You know, in a way, with my kids and stuff, I see them eat kind of like--cool, watching them eat with their hands and stuff. So there’s part of that there. They aren’t going to have the full meal deal that I had growing up, but with my aunts and uncles are still around and my brothers and sisters, they impart quite a bit. And I’m really proud of that. I’m really really proud of that. Franklin: Was there already a--how large was the Latino community, or was there already a Latino community when both sides of your family moved up to Toppenish? Leon: There was quite the Latino community. But really nothing like it is nowadays. You know, now it seemed like 75% of the town is Hispanic. Up and down the Yakima Valley. Or something like that. There was a large community, but it wasn’t like the influential that you have now, it seemed like. When I went to--when I graduated from high school, a handful of Hispanics that graduated with me. And I think two, maybe three--I’m just thinking--African Americans and that was really the--that was it back then. I graduated in 1971. But that was it. I never felt like I wasn’t part of the town. Franklin: Right. And you said you went to college. Leon: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And where did you go? Leon: Oh, for--[LAUGHTER] that’s a long story. But to make it short, when I graduated from high school, I went to Eastern in Cheney, and got tired of school after about three years. Kind of like basically, when you go to college, you meet the world. You meet kids that have a lot of money, or kids that don’t have much. Kids that want to be away from home, kids that are longing to be back home, and have a different kind of relationship with their parents. To me, it was all normal. I just kind of like--anyway, but living on a shoestring, kind of like eventually on your own kind of gets to you a little bit. So after three years and stuff, that’s where, ad in the paper, reactor operator? Sure, why not? Franklin: Really? You answered an ad in the paper. Leon: Ad in the paper. Franklin: Do you remember--a paper in Cheney? Leon: No, no, I was actually, during the summer, it was a Tri-City paper. I think it was my uncle that called and said, hey, there’s an ad in the paper for--and I saw it. I think it was in the Yakima Herald also. Kind of blurry about that. And interviewed with Paul Vinther. I don’t know if you’ve met-- Franklin: Really? Leon: Uh-huh. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I’m very--yeah, he has the Hanford Retirees. Leon: Paul, oh, yeah. Franklin: And he trained reactor operators. Leon: A long time ago. He’s a physicist by trade. Anyway, it’s funny, in talking with him--very, oh, man, talk about a larger-than-life personality. I mean, here, look, here I am, a 21-year-old kid, look at how small I am. I mean, barely weighed 120 pounds, maybe, at that time. I’m a lot heavier now, type of thing, but think about that. And, you know, he’s a big man. So he had this big, booming voice, great personality, just kind of like--and, heck, I can’t even remember the questions he asked and stuff. It wasn’t very long after that that they gave me the job offer. And so-- Franklin: What did you know about Hanford when you took that interview? Leon: Oh, golly. Well, I guess a couple things. You know, I remember the Kennedy thing, because that was covered; that was in the news. That was everywhere. I mean, eastern Washington, are you kidding? I mean, the President of the United States?! I know the Herald and the Tri-City really covered it at that time. But also the Yakima paper, Toppenish--that’s what we got, the Yakima Herald, all the time. And I remember that. And then driving truck for my dad in potatoes, like going to Othello, we’d be driving out 240. And so you’d see these stacks. You’d see these buildings, see the vapor coming out. And it was just kind of like--you know, now, you’re thinking about it, as I’m looking out. And I know the area so well that I was actually looking, at actually B Reacotr, you know, the one that was the closest to see that. But going on up, you’d see the processing coming out of the 200 West. And I know the story on when I’m on the bus is kind of like, back in those days and stuff, if you pulled over like for a flat tire or something like that, the Hanford Patrol would be right there, almost immediately, seeing what--if there’s something wrong somewhere, hurry up and fix your tire and move on. Because it was really, really secret, still. Franklin: Yeah. Leon: You know, I mean, highly sensitive and all that stuff. So that as my--and then I knew a lot of smart people worked there, I guess. I mean, that’s what it comes down to because all these scientists and all that type of thing. They used to have a school day when they’d have, you know, two or three kids from each school from all over the areas would go and tour Hanford, and they’d show them all that type of thing. So I had a couple friends that did that, and whatever, I wasn’t one of the smart kids. So they went and they’d tell, whatever, that they were picked and all that stuff. Franklin: But then here you are, 21, you got a job offer as a reactor operator. Leon: And I had no idea what I was getting into. Franklin: Well, what did you get into? Leon: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What was that like? Leon: Well, come down to it, first thing was that they, you know, saw how much they were going to pay me. $184.84 a week was my--and I’m going, whoa. I mean, nobody’d ever paid me that much for anything, whatever. Franklin: What kind of wages were your parents earning, or what would’ve been the prevailing wage in like driving truck at that time? Leon: my dad didn’t pay me. Franklin: Oh, sure. Leon: My dad didn’t--his trucks and I got room and board. Put gas in and paid insurance for my car and that type of thing. Franklin: Sure, I mean, how did that compare to what you might have earned back in Toppenish if you were working? Leon: Oh, heck, I’d’ve be a millionaire almost type of thing. Oh, I’m not kidding! That was--$184, that’s like $4.50 an hour in 1974. And, really, when I first came here, my brother had already started to work out here, my older brother. And so we found a place in Pasco, like an old hotel set up to stay there until I found something, whatever, until we found something. And just a block of I guess would be south of the Uptown, there were some apartments, and I found them-- Franklin: Those little one-story apartments? Leon: Yeah, the one-story, the Anthony Apartments it’s called, whatever? Franklin: The what apartments? Leon: I lived 1209. 1209 George Washington Way. Franklin: Oh. What did you call them? Leon: Anthony Apartments, they were called at the time. And I don’t know who--I can’t remember the owner’s name. But anyway, so we stayed there, lived there for actually the whole four years that I actually worked as an operator at N. So me and my brother moved in there, $200 a month. And so he covered the first month, because he’d been working and he had money, and I hadn’t gotten paid nothing yet. And then eventually--but no cable, no phone, you know, any of that type of thing. Because we--you know. I got in trouble with the no phone business with work. My shift manager--I got sick, and I didn’t call. And this was at the, oh, probably been working three or four months or something like that. So, I was gone--I was not at work for a couple, two days. And I got on the bus, and got to work a couple days later. He was really mad at me because I didn’t call. Well, I don’t have a phone, Cliff. And he said, well, go to a payphone, whatever, that type of thing. And at that time, I didn’t have--I’m trying to remember the phone number of the control room or his number, just kind of like--that was like--but whatever. It was a year before I got a phone. You know, really. Franklin: Wow. What did your older brother do? Leon: He worked, actually, just with finance. That’s what he wanted to do and stuff, so he worked in the finance part. He never went into the reactors or nothing like that. Franklin: What was your first impression when you showed up for your first day? Do you remember? Leon: Oh, I remember my first day. My first day? My first bus ride. Remember, you caught the things, so they’d give you the instructions on how to catch the bus. I didn’t know about the shuttles at the time. I ended up catching the bus right across the street on George Washington Way, eventually, when I got on shift. But I ended up on the bus ride and we were just passing--just before we were going to pass the 200 East Area. Of course, I didn’t know the 200 East Area, but I know now, that’s just why I’m telling you. Anyway, passing 200 East Area. The bus was pulling over. And I was kind of like, oh, this must be the reactor or something like that. But there was some commotion and stuff Well, there was a guy three or four seats in front of me, because I was close to the back, he was having a heart attack. I’d never seen anything like this. So they escorted him off and a patrolman came on out and stuff. So they left and then the bus drove off. They left him standing there with the patrolman and they took care of him or whatever. But it was nothing like nowadays with the EMTs and all that type of stuff. It’s totally different. And kind of like, okay. It was just--and then I, you know, like showed up in front of the admin building and I got off. I didn’t know anybody. And walked in, and there was the admin building, and they had told me just to go up the stairs and the corner office and there was Dottie, Vinther’s secretary. Big old smile on her face and everything. You know, so welcomed me and every thing, and talked about her guys, because she just loved the operators. And then eventually got escorted into the 105 Building. And the 105 Building for N is huge. Huge, compared to, you know, the B and the rest of the other reactors. Got introduced to whatever shift manager of the shift that was on at the time and everything, and all the various other people. It’s kind of like, lost. And then Larry Haler came on, too, the same date that I did. Franklin: Same exact day? Leon: Yeah, same day. Franklin: Wow. Leon: And so we kind of hung around together and asked--gave each other a lot of blank looks a lot. You’ll have to ask Larry what he remembers. But it was a blur, basically, it’s what a blur was. And we were basically assigned to work back in the fuels area to package fuel and that type of thing. That’d be our first thing of learning being a reactor operator. Franklin: So it was all on-the-job training. Leon: Ohm es, I did not take one single classroom. It was just, this is the books, read the books. And it had all the systems and all that type of stuff. And then--I was--to go forward a little bit, eventually I was assigned to shift. And I was, looking back on it, I was very fortunate to be put on the shift that I was on, B shift, is the shift I was on. Got A, B, C, and D. Franklin: And why was that so fortunate? Leon: Ah, because of the individuals. And I guess, I guess, maybe if I would’ve been on A shift, C or D, I would’ve--but I got to meet other guys on the other shift and got to know them, too, don’t get me wrong there. But B shift was just the characters that were there, but at the same time, the character that they gave me, I guess that’s--and I was telling Tom earlier, it was kind of like, those guys helped me grow up. I was 21 years old, and I was bulletproof. And the next youngest guy on my shift was 45 years old. Franklin: Oh, wow. So they were, a lot of them were kind of like father figures almost? Leon: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They had kids like me and older, type of thing. And so--yeah, I guess you could say, they probably knew me much better than I knew myself in a lot of ways. But it was--they really wanted me to learn, and learn right. That was the one thing that I’m very, very thankful for. Because, boy, I tell you, if you did anything wrong, if you went one way or--against what you should actually be doing, it’s just kind of like, you don’t put your finger into a socket for electricity. Well, you don’t walk into a radiation area unless you know what you’re going to face. And it’s that type of thing. And they’re very, very, very good--not the operators; the HP techs--we called them RMs at the time, radiation monitors; we didn’t call them HP techs--all the shift managers, the guys in maintenance. On and on, I mean, I could name them. I tell everybody, like the last scene of the Titanic, you know, where the camera’s going, you see the barnacled ship and then eventually it gets into its glory, the grand staircase. I can close my eyes and walk in to the 105-N. And there, Duke Anthony’s in there, you know, Granva Philips’ office, there’s Bob White’s in there, and there’s Cliff Young, shift managers’ offices, right off the back, you walk through. And then the INC shop over here, the entrance into the N, and then walk over here, walk in and stuff, closing my eyes. And I see Bob Stees, my first control room supervisor, Dale Tahyer, my other one. Oh, golly. Then all of the various operators: Ralph Hagensic or Nels Kass. Chet Regal, Claire Miller. Howard Sidig. I mean, just--you know, it’s just so clear. Right now as I’m talking to you, I can see their faces. I can recognize their voices. Even--that was my crew. That was my crew. And in the back, Nellie and Kenny and John. And then these--you know, the mechanics would come in. And the INC techs, the electricians, Jack Black--no, Jack White, Mike Black. Rodney Brown. All these different people that would come in. Harold Petty, the 105 supervisor in the power side and stuff. And Harold would always make, on the last night in graveyard, would always make us breakfast. Just give him a couple bucks and big old pancakes and bacon, it was kind of like--I mean, for a kid that never had had that type of stuff before, it was just kind of like, wow! This is amazing to me. It just, you know, all the various foods, stuff that people brought for lunch. We had this great big, actually, big kitchen at 105-N. And gas stoves. This was before microwaves and that type of thing. So they had these big gas stoves and stuff, and people would cook and bring their lunches and stuff, and see what the heck, all the various sandwiches and stuff. I was really fascinated by egg salad. I’d never had egg salad and someone gave me half of an egg salad sandwich. I was going, wow, this is really amazing. And then, you know, on a break, here’s a guy that was--looked like an apple, you know, he’s cutting it and eating it type of thing. And I’m like, what’s that, Cecil? Kohlrabi’. Kohlrabi is the way you see it now. And he said, you’ve never had it? I said, no. How would I know? So he cut off a piece and gave it to me. Took a bite of it, tasted like a dirty radish. But I like radishes and dirt don’t bother me any, so. So every once in a while, I--whenever I see kohlrabi I think of this guy, Cecil Moss. Really, a good guy. Really a good guy. Like I said, I had a really good time with all of these different people and stuff like that. I’m rambling, aren’t I? Franklin: No, it’s great. Did you work when you first started, did you work with anybody from the Manhattan Project days? Were any of your coworkers-- Leon: Oh, yes. Franklin: From-- Leon: Oh, yes, in fact, oh, yes, in fact, a physicist at B, but my first visit to B was a guy--again, all the reactors were shut down. So all the keys to all the reactors were hung in the control room in a little cabinet in B and stuff. One of the older gentlemen that was there, one of the guys that helped do the training or went along with it was Ralph Wallen. He actually has a narration on that, it’s W-A-H-L-E-N. Anyway, so, he has like a story that he’s written that you can actually get online. They actually have it. And he talks about that. Anyway, so, one time when I was the extra man on shift and that type of thing, he said, you wanna go over to B? I said, sure! So, again, this was, had to have been, I’d had been there at least a year then. It had to have been ‘75. Got flashlights and stuff and got in the car and drove on over to B. He unlocked the gates and everything. So we went into the, down the hall. No power anymore. I think I remember it being cool. And shined a light on the front face and stuff. Whoa. I said, that’s more tubes than N. You know, by that time I knew what--but, looked a lot, looked very, very similar. Said, is that the C elevator there? Yeah, that’s the C elevator. I mean, so all of these different things there, they were very, very similar. And I think one of the ways he really wanted me to see this, because I could go in there and not worry about any kind of exposure. And learn about it. And not too years later that I really realized that that’s what he was doing. Because I’d see something and I’d explain to him. The ball hoppers, even up on top and that type of thing. And then went into the control room, and how much smaller it was. Then we actually walked across the slats in the fuel pool. It was dusty, and everything, so I don’t ever remember--and I know we didn’t survey ourselves. Nothing to survey--supposedly. Like it is now, I tell you. But that was my first experience with somebody that really actually told me. But then Howard Sidig who was on my shift, he was only on my shift for about a year-and-a-half. He was getting to be retirement age. But he used to be an operator, and he was one of the original operators for B. He’s long dead now and stuff, but he is a good father for me. I got to know him outside of work and stuff through the church and everything. And him and his family and his wife, Rosemary. Very, very--oh, just endearing, endearing people. So he actually showed me--you know the certificate at the tour center that shows that people were part of the war effort, that they gave to various operators, I guess? Or to whoever--whatever. I was visiting Howard and he went on up to--he said, I gotta show you something. And beaming, he has this certificate. I’d never seen it before. I read it and stuff, helping out the war effort, blah, blah, blah. His name was on it. He was very, very proud of it, you know? That was the mentality. Well, yeah! You know? And they helped end a very cruel part of our history. So he was very, very proud of that. And I looked at it and said, whoa. He said, there aren’t very many of these. Okay. Apparently there aren’t. To have--I don’t know how many were handed out during--and that type of thing. And then there was also another individual--well, actually two. Archie Stark, who was in the fuel-handling in the back, and then George Madison, who was actually a supervisor, and both of them were B Reactor people. But again, I’d ask them questions, but I forget half the answers about that type of thing. But, you know the biggest thing that they would say is, ah, you wouldn’t have existed, you couldn’t have handled all that hard work back then. Oh, you know. They would always kid me with that. But growing up in the family that I did, you know, helped me. Like I told you about my parents, to treat people with respect and that type of thing. But I have a thick skin. You know, when you grow up with nine kids, seven boys, especially, you do. And so, man, they want to banter? Okay, here I am! I banter right back. And just, yeah, whatever, I just loved it. I loved it. Growing up with it all. So, I don’t know, you want me to show you some things or whatever? I brought something with me. We’re not at that point in our conversation? Franklin: Why don’t you show me at the end? Leon: Okay. Franklin: Then we can get like a stand or something to put it on. We could then do that--that way the camera doesn’t have to refocus. Could you describe a typical work day as a reactor operator? Leon: A typical work day. Franklin: Yeah. Leon: Well, I can tell you a typical work day, maybe about three or four different typical work days, if you get down to it, because there was lots of aspects to it. One o the--probably the first aspect was, if you’re like in the back, in the fuel pool and you’re actually packaging fuel. Or you’re actually part of the refuel process. In, you know, when they were pushing the fuel out, you could either be on the discharge or the charging elevator. Or you could be out back in the fuel pool. We actually had three positions. Or I was never--they would never let me operate the charge machine; you need some experience in that. But other than that-- Franklin: Is that what pushes the fuel through? Leon: Pushes the fuel through. It’s a great, big, you know, 55, 60-foot long elevator on steel platforms that they had that actually would get--and we’d make charges already. And that’s another story. When it comes to a typical day, it really is hard for me to tell you what a typical day was, because so much changed. And then it depended what shift you were on, if you were on graveyard, swing or days. All of those things made a difference as far as what a typical day was. But to really get down to it, you know, like if you were a fuel handler, you were in the back. You are actually packaging the fuel and putting them into canisters and the canisters, you’d be putting them in order in the fuel, in those canisters and then lowering them into the pool. When you discharged the fuel, you’re seeing the images of the fuel coming out and hitting the trampoline and into the carts. They actually had track--they had carts where you’d get, I think, three tubes in each cart. And then travel on out, and then come on out and they’d dump it into baskets. So everything would be into the baskets. So then you’d eventually, when everything started up and stuff, well, you had all these baskets of fuel. You actually had to let them cool a little bit longer than--you know, you don’t start packaging them right away. But you had to do rearranging. You had to make sure that everything was arranged and stuff, and if any pieces that fell out, you’re looking for them. It’s an accountability issue, make sure that we had everything. So the fuel pool--and that was different, N Reactor’s was a really long fuel pool. It didn’t have a grate across it like ethe other reactors did. It was just a pool, and you actually had trolleys that traveled the length of the fuel pool. And, oh, that was a--oh, golly, talk about memory. That was a source of fun for me, let’s put it that way. They had no idea. They had these big old tongs and stuff that would hang to pick things up and that type of thing. And you’d bring it all the way up to the top and stuff. But it had a faster or slow motion going. I would hit the jog button, and I’d hit the travel button and that sucker would sped up. Not like it went really, really fast, but it would go a little bit faster to get to the other end. And then as soon as I’d hit that, I’m telling you, George Madison, who was my supervisor at the time, he’d be on one end, and, you know. I got this idea during graveyard and stuff, going really fast. Eeee. And it was in a big enclosure, and echoed like crazy if you really wanted to make it echo. Well, hey, here’s my chance. So I go in there and I hit it and I go, GEEEEEEOOOOORRRRRGGGE! And go running. And then I said, no, I’m going to say GEEEORRRRGE! It just echoed like crazy. And George was just doing this thing, whatever. So those types of things, just little by little, all of these various things. You know, it made it enjoyable. It made it enjoyable, a break in the monotony of a lot of the things. And you know, I was just a good target for them all. They would always say something or whatever like that. Especially because my age. More than anything else because my age. Because I’m kind of like-- Franklin: You were kind of young, young buck? Leon: Oh, golly. And then of course they wanted, when I was on long chains, we had four days off, four-and-a-half days off, whatever. I’d head to Portland or Seattle or Spokane, visit friends and this and that or whatever like that. 21, 22-year-old kid, coming back, like, oh, yeah, what’d you do? Oh. Franklin: Right-- Leon: Oh, I’d embellish a lot of the time, whatever. But it was. It was, in fact, especially from Portland or Seattle I’d stop by at home and say hi to the folks and stuff and then head back to Richland. But they just thought I just lived a wild life sometimes, kind of like--yeah, I guess I did. In some respects, I did. Franklin: Were your parents or family concerned about you working at Hanford? Leon: No. Not really. Not really. They were--I guess, you know, tell them, what do you do? Oh, I’m a reactor operator. I operate a nuclear reactor. When I first got here, it was like, I was driving a borrowed car. One of the guys from the reactor had a car that he wanted to sell. ‘68 Toyota Corolla. Franklin: Wow, that’s one of the first ones. Leon: I mean, a little box. A little box, yellow box, what it was. Franklin: Those are very collectible nowadays. Leon: Oh! You know. 500 bucks. And he said, you could probably go to HAPO and get a loan. You know, I mean, who’d give a kid a $500--so I went over to HAPO. You know, at the time, you could only be--since I was a union or whatever, hourly employee, I could only go to HAPO. GESA was for the managers and that type of thing. That’s the way it was divided. So I went on over there, and I got a $500 loan. And I had to--my payments were like $75 a month. So they worked it out so that I could pay my rent and still live and that type of thing. First time I drove it home, my mom was just beaming, really proud, kind of like, it’s just nice--I mean, you’ve got to think about it, as far as our upbringing not having much money and stuff. My parents, they just struggled to provide for us. And we, of course, you being a kid, you don’t really realize how much they’re struggling. And anyway so she was just beaming and happy and feeling it’s so nice to see that you have some money in your pocket now, mojo. And your car and on and on. Just--yeah, no, no, my parents weren’t really, say, like scared of, what, or apprehensive. What was apprehensive though was like I had my next-door neighbor there in Toppenish--because you know to get a clearance they filled out all this paperwork. So one of my neighbors said, in Spanish, you know, what kind of job do you have? I had some guy come talk to me and ask about you, type of thing. Don Santiago was his name. So it’s really kind of funny. There was nothing--it was a job, and it provided, and it provided very well. It provided very well. Franklin: Yeah. And how long did you--how long were you a reactor operator? Leon: I was a reactor operator for four years. I was certified for two-and-a-half during that time. Going back to your typical workday type of thing, The typical workday in the control room, it really--a reactor operator likes it boring. Franklin: Sure. Boring and predictable is good. Leon: Boring and predictable and everything steady state is a great thing. It’s a great thing to have, really, you know? It gets a little tiresome or whatever like that, especially during graveyard. But you know, like I said, there was always--we were always talking. We were always talking. Anyway, so a typical day, depending on whether you were at the nuclear console, whether you were at the A console where you had all the turbines and the steam generators or the BN console where you have your dunk condensers and your rad monitor thing and stuff. But you always had duties; you always had something that you were doing. So if you were the fourth person, you were on relief. So you had other surveillances to do and on and on and everything. But if you had an emergency, like a scram, or like I say, some abnormal happened, whatever. Temperature here too high or steam generator levels getting too high or whatever like that, you know, open up a blow-down valve, and how long, how’s the chemistry looking and that type of thing. All of these various things. So there was always something. There was always something. I love--at the same time, though, I love startups. Startups were fun. Yeah. I learned a lot. That’s where a lot of the guys, you know, when I was telling you about being hands-on. A lot of the guys would let me [LAUGHTER] manipulate, under instruction, bringing up the turbines to full speed from 1800 to 3600. And you know, pull rods in and out. One experience I had was putting on what’s called dump condensers, heating up dump condensers. Because the way N Reactor was designed was that it sent steam over to the Hanford Generating Plant, but it also had dump condensers so that if you had a load rejection where something happened to those turbines and stuff, N Reactor could take the steam and actually dump it and actually continue running. So you had raw water going through the tubes on those dump condensers. And they’re huge. Oh, heck, I’d say they’re like 15 feet across, 30 feet high, whatever like that, and hanging. It was--they’re massive. They were massive. But anyway, you have to open up a little bit of steam to heat up the tubes. I got a lesson in water hammer. Very classic thermodynamics thing. The power operator called my shift manager and said, hey, the control room is making the condensers move. Because you get the water hammer in those dump condensers, it would move. We were talking about two or three inches. And make noise and everything else. So Cliff, about 6-foot-4. Hey, saying, look who in the BN console, said, are you learning, Carlos? Yeah. I’ll put the steam on a little bit. Said, you know what water hammer is? Uh, no? [LAGUHTER] So, he sent me to the power side and went with and talked to the--Harley was the guy that was on the power side. And so he had one of the operators. So called on the radio, I’m standing by this dump condenser and stuff. Said, okay, open up the steam valve on it. He opened it up just a little bit more. Next thing I know, that dump condenser went fwrrrrr and really just sloshed and really just made this thunder sound. I learned about water hammer, and I respected water hammer, and I’m--I know now when I tell people and said, you don’t want to water hammer pipe. When I teach fundamentals and that type of thing. I mean, you--no. It’s not a--it scares you. It scares you to no end. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Leon: So those are the type of things that you kind of like, you--again, whether somebody would teach you that way now, I don’t know. But I doubt that was the way I was taught, you know? Like, even one other thing, I had quote-unquote the pleasure of seeing and experiencing was being on top of the reactor. And I was--we were getting to start the reactor again from a shutdown. So one of the things that we had wanted to do was check all of the ballhoppers to make sure they were all cocked and loaded. So we had a tool and stuff to cock it and load it and that type of thing. So I was up there doing that type of thing. Well, they had to a surveillance on the fog spray. On the fog spray, we had on each side, eight big risers which fed the reactor. And anyway, so these fog sprays were on top, on the top on the inside. In case there was an accident or a pipe break or something like that, the fog sprays would come on and actually rain down onto those pipe spaces, so none of the fission products would come out. And so they called and said, hey, we’ve got to test the west side fog spray. I never seen them before, type of thing. So they turned on two diesels to go into those sprays. Oh, golly. I jumped from one side to the other. It was so loud, and I thought I was going to get sucked in. Just because, you would drown. You would drown. When somebody says fog spray in a nuclear reactor, they mean fog spray. It’s not a mist. You know. It’s like a waterfall times ten. I mean, it was--and so, not only is it raining down like that right next to you, I was probably from here and that was five feet away. And you could just feel that, you know, air going that way. Oh, man. [LAUGHTER] And Ralph Hagin said, who happened to be the operator when they started it, I called him and I hear him over the phone saying, are they on? Yeah, Ralph, they’re on. Then next thing, you hear him just laughing and laughing and laughing. Okay. Oh, man. That scared the heck out of me, I tell ya. But those are the type of things that you--I guess, later on, it’s a story to tell, but at the same time, it’s also a lesson learned, because now I can tell. I can tell people. [LAUGHTER] When you hear this word in a nuclear reactor, fog spray, believe it. Franklin: Yeah. Yes. Leon: So those are the type of things that-- Franklin: What did you do after you were--what was next at Hanford for you after being a reactor operator? Leon: Oh, well. I actually wanted to go back to college. In 1976, they had a strike. So I spent all my money living off my savings and stuff to go back to school, so I didn’t. And then I ended up, then, in 1977, I actually took a trip around the world. I actually got a leave of absence, they actually gave me a leave of absence, to take a trip around the world. It took me ten weeks, and I was gone. I went with a singing group. And had a--well, the thing is, to be able to do this, it cost $3,400. So in February, when they found out about it, we were leaving in June which is when the thing was supposed to be going. It was a group that I had met through this other, another friend. So how am I going to get the money? Anyway, so, my friends on B deferred working overtime to let me work overtime. Franklin: Wow. You mean at N. Leon: At N. Franklin: Yeah, okay. Leon: They deferred. Because you were on a schedule type of thing, you know, you’d sign up for overtime. So they didn’t sign up and let me. So for my shift I got a chance to work a lot of overtime. When you work overtime, you come in ahead of shift. You got double time for the shift you came in on and your own shift. And I worked a lot of double-doubles. I--thinking about it nowadays, later on, I was very appreciative of it, but think about that, kind of like, you know, these guys wanted to work overtime, too. But at the same time, it’s kind of like, wow. Anyway, so guess what? Six weeks later, I had enough money. Franklin: Crazy. Leon: So yeah. It was $3,400 and it was well worth it, and it was well worth--because I’m saying, I can’t put a price on the friendships. At all. Oh, well, why was that story? But anyway, a story comes up. One of the guys in the back, Adolphus Nelson--we called him Nellie--he invited me and my brother to his house for dinner one evening. And, okay, never been to any place like this before, anybody to their home or whatever. He lived in Kennewick. Went over to his house, and wife made this real nice roast beef dinner with potatoes and stuff. We had good conversation and everything else. And then, you guys ready for dessert? Dessert? These are Okies, they’re from Oklahoma. Anyway, so, Fae was her name, brought out this pie. Sucker was this--it’s like, whoa! Banana cream pie. Got a slice. Oh, I thought I was in heaven. I’d never had banana cream pie before. I’d never had banana cream pie like that since. And it was just kind of like, aw, man. I just kind of like gushed over it. I told Nellie about it and stuff. And a couple weeks later, he said, hey, Carlos, got something for you at lunch time. Come on back. So I go back there. Guess what? A piece of banana cream pie. Oh! So yeah. I don’t know why I brought that up. Just kind of like it--it was just a story. Like I said, there’s stories like that. There’s lots of, yeah. There’s a lot of things that, oh, golly, my mind just races like crazy. Communications of things. There was a guy named Tommy van Lear that was--I knew him as our steward and then eventually he was a shift manager and stuff. Just the craziest guy. Just the craziest guy. He would--at that time, there were like, you could say, you could do a lot of things over what they called the announcement within the reactor. You could pick up the phone and dial--I don’t remember what it was, 7-1 or whatever. And then you paged somebody. And he would dial that and everything else when he’d come on shift. And this was on graveyard or--he was on graveyards when nobody was around, the management wasn’t around type of thing. And he’d go, no friggin’ in the riggin, no pokin’ in the passes. I just kind of went, oh. Tommy’s here, Tommy’s here. And the other thing that I remember was a guy named--oh, golly. Anyway, last name was Pease. He was what they called a chief. He worked in the power side in 184 Building. So they would always have diesel oil coming in. So you’d always hear him--he was just a Texan. Got a load of Texas tea coming in, a load of Texas tea. So everybody knew they had to go, whoever was assigned, to make sure that it was unloaded. Eventually, some manager didn’t like the way he was announcing that and stuff. Was kind of like, we’re more professional than that. So it just kind of like, took away that--Charlie Pease was his name. But anyway, those are the type of memories that still echo. And then--so you’re making me remember these things that I’ve forgotten. Oh, golly. I’m going to cry. Franklin: Aw. So how long did you work at N Reactor for? Leon: I worked at N Reactor for four-and-a-half--actually, five-and-a-half years total. Because after I--I went to college I went to Pacific University in Oregon and graduated with a degree in science. Plain science; a bachelor’s degree in science. Franklin: Just, science. Leon: Science. I got 30 hours of physics, math, chemistry and biology. Franklin; What were you studying when you were at Eastern? Leon: More the sciences, that’s where I had most of my credits. That’s where I had most of my credits, so when I transferred over and transferred my credits, those were ethe credits that stuck out. So I said, I’ll just do it that way. And having now, quote-unquote the background that I had, the work background that I had. But you know, in reality, you think about that--a lot of people think--I guess, whatever, I live two lives with work. Okay, I know the left brain stuff of reactor operating and thermodynamics and all those other things. But my other part of my life is kind of like I’m playing guitar and goofing off and doing all these other things that I like doing. Creative type of thing. I write songs and that type of thing. So, that’s what I bring to the--you’ve seen me with my tours and stuff. Franklin: Yeah, no, you’ve very-- Leon: But that’s what I like doing. Franklin: Did you come back to Hanford after you graduated? Leon: Yes, I did, uh-huh. I worked there for about a year-and-a-half in the training department and teaching new operators in fact that came on that are real good friends of mine, really, when it comes down to it. A lot of them that came afterwards. In fact, one of them is actually Mark Jensen. Franklin: Oh! I just saw Mark yesterday. Leon: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Leon: And so, it’s--and Larry Haler had gone into training. It was a natural fit, really. It was a real natural fit, because training had changed. Three Mile Island had happened. So that was during the time when things were actually changing in training, to the point that we’re where we are now, really. That was just the infancy part of it. Of course, with the opportunity, having the degree, and being at N, and then having, I guess, two things. Going back off to college, and then having that thing with the trip around the world just made that travel bug even bigger. There was--what do you call it? I can’t remember. Nuclear News magazine they used to have all the time, we used to get it. And it’d be in the shift manager’s office and stuff and I’d read it. There was an ad for General Electric for--and so I submitted an application with General Electric in nuclear. This was the same time that the first WPPSS plant was being built, Number 2. And that was a BWR, GE BWR. So one of the managers was visiting and stuff and called me and asked if I wanted to interview and stuff so I did. Lo and behold, guess what the question that he asked me about, just to see what my background was and stuff? He asked me a water hammer question. [LAUGHTER] Oh, that was easy. Kind of like-- Franklin: You were like, I got this. Leon: Oh, yeah. Right now. Golly, divine providence. There is a god! And that’s where I got on with General Electric. The thing that he promised me at that time--didn’t come to fruition--but to certify on their BWR6 line and then have like a two or three year assignment in Spain. And doing that in Spanish. Oh, boy, as soon as he said that. Oh, yeah. And then they ended up canceling the plant. That was during the time when--that’s when nuclear was out of vogue after that. So, yeah, but that came back in ‘89 at Columbia. Worked in the control room and did all kinds of things, corrective actions and stuff. Franklin: That would be Energy Northwest. Leon: Yeah, Energy Northwest. And then, now, I’m with the Vit Plant. You know, people still ask me, well, what do you do? I teach reactor operators. I teach people how to run nuclear reactors. Even though it’s not a nuclear reactor, it’s so much simpler just to say something like that than try to explain what I do. But being an instructor is--I’ve just gotten to enjoy it. Whether I know something about a certain subject or not, eventually I’m--I tell, like people at the Vit Plant, well the first time will be a little boring maybe a little bit more rough type of thing. But the second or third time, no prob. Because you do, you get more comfortable and you know the slides and you know the subject matter. And knowing your audience is probably the biggest thing. Franklin: Yeah. When you started at N, were there a lot of other--were there any other Hispanic/Latino workers? Leon: Oh! Golly. Let me tell--okay, well, now you really are going to make me cry. I was the first person in my family, anybody related to me, to get a college degree. I have cousins and stuff that, they have PhDs and masters and all that type of stuff. I’m very proud of them. But I was the first one. But well when I got on, you know, I didn’t really realize it, but one of the things that--this was at the very beginnings of equal opportunity, EEO. I really didn’t realize it until after I had been there maybe six months that they’re really pushing me to get certified. And they went out of their way a lot to make sure that I saw certain things on a startup, shutdown, and that type of thing, and make sure that I held over, or came out early, and all these different things. It was really kind of against what the union was--you know, the guys that are around, and other shifts. Again, this is where I was really fortunate with my crew. Because my crew, like, they knew me and they kind of like picked up on this. Without even saying certain things. They had a lot of--whatever, I just kind of like--so, in the last, I’d say month and a half before I actually did get certified, I was really actually working quite a bit to learn various aspects. To make a long story short, I was the first Hispanic ever to certify. Franklin: At N Reactor? Leon: At N Reactor. Franklin: Oh, wow. Leon: There was other Hispanic workers, but none in reactor operations. So, I didn’t try to make a big deal out of it. I didn’t know how to handle it, let’s put it that way. More than anything else, I didn’t know how to handle it. Would I handle it differently now? Probably, in a way. And then also, it was really unsaid. It was really unsaid in a lot of ways. But you could sense it. So when went through my--to get certified, you actually took a written test, very comprehensive. And then you had a walkaround and it’d be a full day type of thing, a shift. Walk you around and asking you how does this work, how does that work, can you put this on, can you shift this, can you do that, type of thing. Do you know what a water hammer is? And then be in front of an oral board of three people that would ask you all types of questions. Which was a piece of cake. When they asked me--when I went to the board, I was nervous. But at the same time, I was kind of like, they can’t ask me anything. I was that confident, by that time. And so the day that I got my certificate, a photographer came in and took pictures of me and my shift manager and my control room supervisor and another operator, me standing at the board. And I’ve got that picture. I’m going to show you later. Standing on the board and talking like I’m communicating somewhere. Yeah, it was a real proud day. It was a real proud day for me. Whatever, thinking about it. Like I say, I had no idea how to deal with it, because nobody--I had nobody to really I guess talk to about it, type of thing, really. Franklin: Right, you-- Leon: The only thing I was really being harassed about or people were talking about, the other guys on my shift that like a couple of electricians, hey, first time you sit on that nuclear console all by yourself, I bet you it scrams. [LAUGHTER] It shuts--it only took the second time for me to sit there that it scrammed, really. But the thing that really--other that the guys would say was now you’re really going to get paid. Because basically my pay went up almost $200 a week, just like that. Franklin: Wow. Leon: The following week. And that was just for getting certified. That was my incentive. You can talk about-- Franklin: That’s a good incentive. Leon: --incentive, you know, a spiritual incentive, a moral incentive, and all these different things, kind of like whatever. But for a poor kid from Toppenish, and going through the college things that I did? Boom. You know, all of a sudden, here I am, almost $400 a week, just like that. And it was just incredible. It was just incredible. So I mean, that’s why I look back in retrospect, you know, the guys, especially Cliff Younghands. I can’t catch him, you know? Golly. He was a great guy. Without him, I can really say--[EMOTIONAL]--without him, I wouldn’t be--I wouldn’t have learned like I learned. There’s no way. Franklin: That’s wonderful. Leon: I mean, all the other shift managers were great. And they probably had other guys under their wing and that type of thing. But there’s just something about Cliff that he took a real interest in me. He wouldn’t let me--he’d give me a little rein to goof off here or there, that type of thing. But he’d come in, and he’d quiz me. And he knew his prints forwards and backwards and inside out. There’s only about three or four other people that I knew at N Reactor that knew them like that. And that really taught me a lot. Taught me a lot of discipline. There’s a time for everything. He, Cliff, had the respect of all the other guys, too. And then later on when Cliff got off of shift and stuff and working in training and doing all these other things, he actually signed my certificate. And I’m proud that he had signed my certificate. Because he was--of all the individuals that I got to know--when it comes to operating and being disciplined for it, trying to encourage--I try to encourage a lot of other operators, like at the Vit Plant itself, you have new commissioning techs that are coming in, try to encourage them, and I think of Cliff while I’m doing it. Franklin; Yeah. He was like a real mentor to you. Leon: He very, very much was. Very, very much was. You know? And you know, over the lifetime, you can count how many people in your hand that really mentored you in some way. You know, whatever. When it comes to that discipline of bearing down and learning. You know, kind of like, do everything that you can. He turned his back on some of the things that I kind of liked that I shouldn’t have done to go into the reactor, to learn. Because I know with him I was learning and that type of thing. I don’t know if I should say in front of the camera or not. [LAUGHTER] But, you know, I have--I think my lifetime exposure was like--I’m kind of thinking like 14 or 15 R lifetime exposure in those short years that I worked. But I know that I probably had more. Because when we were shut down, and graveyard, I’d walk into the--I’d dress down and go into the zone. But I’d leave my dosimeter and stuff hanging in the lunch--and I’d spend two or three hours walking around, learning the reactor. Franklin: Wow. Leon: I mean--and I knew whatever, to stay away from certain things and that type of thing. But I didn’t want to--my exposure was when we were refueling and doing things and that type of thing. You know, what--nowadays, I’d be in trouble like crazy. Maybe I’m going to get in trouble saying this, I don’t know. Franklin: No, no, don’t worry. Leon: But those are the--that was what it was. That’s where that real concern. Like I say, that was just--it just started with Cliff, though. It just started with him. All of those other operators and stuff were--they were right there, making sure that I was learning things and being safe. And doing it correctly. From top to bottom. From top to bottom. And that’s why I said like, oh, boy, never in their wildest dreams would they ever think that B Reactor would be open the way it is for tourists. Franklin: Do you mean the--the guys that taught you were who were old timers? Leon: Yeah. And that’s what I say. Like I say, when I close my eyes and I see al these guys and I see their names and stuff, I’m just, yeah, I’m very, very proud. I’m very, very proud to have been a part of Hanford history. But more important, making friends with who I made friends with. The sad part is, I’ve gone to too many funerals. And memorial services and--but at the same time, that’s part of life, and that’s just something that--it’s my makeup now. It’s my makeup. And that’s part of my story and stuff. There’s a lot of things that happen, I mean, that will--that I won’t tell you. And they’re going to die with me. A lot of things died with them. And it’s not necessary. And that scares--that’s the way I look at it. You know, being a historian, you know, you want to get into all of the facts and that type of thing. And there’s a lot, yeah. Franklin: Well, that’s kind of a great segue way into my next question, which is, could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy at Hanford impacted your work there? Leon: [SIGH] Security and secrecy. Well, since it was my first job, really come down to it, besides driving truck, I just took it as the norm. I just took it as the norm. Being in the control room wasn’t so much secret or quote-unquote secure. Because you could just walk right--back then, you could just walk right in. You’d open up your lunch bag or your pack, whatever you’re--whatever, and look in, lunch, close it. Come through. You’d already gone through the Wye Barricade, so why--I guess. It was a different kind of security. And secrecy? The only real secret was held by the scientists or the plant manager or the guy who does the fuel calculations on how much plutonium was being generated. We all knew we were making plutonium. We all knew how much exposure everyone was getting, that type of thing. But how much was being processed and being shipped and that type of thing? That was really the only secret. The security of everything. But, no, I never really--the stories, the old stories about whispering and that type of thing? That was when they were building the B Reactor in the early days. By the time 1974 came along, it was a secure area, more than it was a quote-unquote secret area. That was all in the 200 Area with the plutonium finishing Plant and how much they were processing. That was really what, come down to it. We just made electricity and plutonium at N. Franklin: What were the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Leon: The most rewarding? Franklin: And challenging. Leon: And challenging? Franklin: Yeah. Leon: Well, the most challenging is actually learning how something so big works. All of the stuff that’s--all of the different things that make a reactor work: the water, the steam, the electricity, the design and on and on and on, I mean, it just kind of like--wow. Who put this thing together? That was--and challenging? That was challenging. Franklin: That was challenging. Leon: That was challenging. And what was the other? Franklin: Rewarding. Leon: Rewarding. [LAUGHTER] Ugh. I’m getting too old for this, Robert. Rewarding was, it was the friendships. Without a doubt, that is top to me. And hopefully, when I talk in front of the crowd, in front of the front face of the reactor, is that I’m talking for these guys, the people that came before me. That’s what I want to really--yeah, I talk about myself. But I want their personalities to come out. Franklin: Yeah. Leon: You know, some of the stories I say, and some of the voices I use in describing things, what would Ralph say? What would Nells say? And that type of thing. And that’s where, you know, whatever, that’s top. That’s really, really top for me, it’s that I--without a doubt. It afforded me to be able to have a quote-unquote good lifestyle I guess, too, because of the pay. So, yeah. Franklin: So my last question is what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Leon: [SIGH] Wow. Wow. Well, 1974, when I started, in July, Vietnam hadn’t been--the last troops to Vietnam hadn’t left yet. Nixon resigned a month after I started. And it was still the AEC. It wasn’t ERDA and it wasn’t Department of Energy yet. I guess in talking with the guy who’s in charge of fuels, the guy’s name Bob Firster, and he just died just a couple years ago in fact, and got really, really just the most nice, straightforward guy. He would talk about the fuel to an extent. Because he had the high clearance and all that stuff. And you’d talk to the guys in the control room, it’s kind of like, we had no idea how much nuclear arsenal, power, whatever that the Soviet Union had at the time. So it was kind of like a race of the two big bullies on the block. There was no backing down from any of the individuals, any of the guys in my control room, any of my crew, any of the other crews, kind of like we were there for national defense. Without a doubt. And that’s what I think kept this place going. They were very, very, very proud individuals. And so I guess that instilled--that’s what instilled in me, that type of thing. You know, like when I was growing up, Toppenish would play Richland High School in basketball. Because there weren’t very many communities. Richland had to play somebody. They had to beat up somebody; they might as well beat up Toppenish. They would put their green and gold bomb smackdab in the middle of our court. And they’d come. Yeah, but they were good. So I guess maybe when you talk about, when it comes to it, you know, eventually, you could see why they were so proud. They got their “proud of the cloud” type of thing. And it permeated. It permeated the whole Tri-City area. I think that’s probably what--the Cold War was something that I remember, you know, when I was in grade school and going through junior high and high school. I guess, just this just magnified it, my awareness of it. Because they were always experimenting and stuff. They had what’s called a subtle facility to irradiate different other things to see what they could produce and that type of thing. So it was a long, long, long line of history. I got to say that I am very, very proud to have been part of that. Good, bad, indifferent, it’s what it is. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Well, great, Carlos, thank you. Why don’t we take a couple minutes to look at the photos you brought? Leon: Okay. Sounds like a deal. [VIDEO CUTS] Leon: If I wasn’t the first, I’m pretty close to it. Franklin: Well, you’re definitely the face of a changing workforce. Leon: Well, yeah, and I could’ve talked about the women and stuff, too, back when they first came on. Because that’s when they came on, too. In fact, you should--have you ever interviewed any of the operator women? Franklin: A few, yeah. Leon: Martha Coop or Leslie Jensen? Franklin: Leslie--I think we’ve interviewed Leslie Jensen. Let me get those names from you, though and then we’ll-- Leon: Okay. Franklin: And then we’ll follow up with them. Because I’m always trying-- Tom Hungate: Okay, I’m just-- Franklin: Are we good? Leon: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Leon: I don’t know. Whatever. Hungate: So, tell us what we’re seeing. Franklin: Yeah. Leon: Oh, this was my second certificate--or, no, the original certificate when I got certified. Emil Leitz. Franklin: Oh, that’s Larry’s father-in-law. Leon: Larry’s father-in-law, uh-huh. Roy Dunn. Franklin: We’ve interviewed him. Leon: So this was the certificate that was hanging on the wall out there. So, yeah, it’s just something that just--that’s part of the picture that’s what’s called the BN console and as you go around, it’s the A console. And so, yeah, when I left, I made sur that I took it with me. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Leon: And then, this right here, they’re the pictures that I was saying on my--on the day that I got qualified, there’s Emil Leitz and Dave Ferguson, my shift manager, handed me my certificate. Franklin: Ah, yeah, that is solidly in the middle of the ‘70s, isn’t it? [LAUGHTER] Leon: Oh, you just love that, don’t you? Okay! And then there’s my--and this right here is-- Franklin: It’s nice to see you have good consistency with your look. [LAUGHTER] Leon: Yeah, yeah, that’s--yeah. And here I am at--and this is the nuclear console. There’s me and that’s operator, Claire Miller, and that’s Dave Ferguson in the back right there. Anyway, so, yeah, I mean, I could talk about all of these different--like the meters and stuff that you’re seeing But this is the picture that-- Franklin: Wow, look at that computer. Leon: Where I was sitting in front of the AA console. They had me pose like I’m talking. And I have this picture up in my wall at work with my certificate and stuff, my old certificate, I had them laminated. And so people walk into my office and they look at it, kind of like, is that you? Where is that? Is that B Reactor? Because they have a hard time equating that type of thing. Franklin: It’s so--I mean, I’ve only ever seen the B Reactor control room. That’s so much more involved. Leon; Oh, definitely, much more. Just because you had to have--you had recirculation pumps there. There’s a primary system and secondary system. Franklin; Right, it was much more complex. Leon: Oh, yeah. You’re talking 1600 pounds of pressure on the primary side. So, yeah, it was a whole different bag. And like I said, like, lo and behold, no way that I know they were going to set me up for life the way that I know it, as far as what I know, technically. Franklin: Right, right, yeah, a lot of technical knowledge. Leon: Anyway, so, I made a copy of this. I have a card at home somewhere. But anyway, this was just the membership card of the union that I belonged to, the Nucleonics Alliance. And if you look at it, this is a charter member card, when they actually, you know, formed that part of the union. Franklin: Oh, cool. Leon: It’s still kind of like ethe Hanford Works thing or whatever. But I was a charter member. Franklin: Wow. Leon: And this probably is something that--I wish I--I probably should’ve printed it color, but this was sat the Gaslight Tavern. Franklin: Yeah. Leon: ON George Washington way? Franklin: Yeah. Leon: every swing shift, the last night of swing shift, we’d get off and we’d show up. We’d call ahead of time, to the Gaslight. Every shift did this. Franklin: That was nice of you guys. Leon: Every shift did this. But we’d call in ahead of time, and say, well, 20 guys are going to show up at 1:00. They close at 2:00. So, wondering if we could get pizza. Of course, the kitchen was closed by the time we got there. But the cook, before he left, would make up, like ten pizzas or something like that. So, the bartender would then, you know, about 12:30 put them all in there. By the time we got there at 1:00, the pizzas were ready. And of course, the beer was cold. So this was part of the group that I took a picture of. And so in fact, a couple guys from the Hanford Generating Plant back there. This guy back there this is Billy Johnson. We used to call him Billy White shoes back then, whatever. Here’s a couple HP techs and stuff. Ben Garrity, he’s still around. Dale Thayer’s back there. There’s Walt Like, he’s a little German INC tech. But, oh, oh, golly, and talk about the end of shift, 1:00 in the morning, we had one hour. Not only did we consume all that pizza, boy, but I tell you we downed a lot--those guys taught me how to drink beer. I had no idea that you could drink that much beer! I mean, even in college. These guys were old hands. They were old hands. Franklin: Wow, that’s great. Leon: Anyway, so that’s what I have. Franklin: Thank you, Carlos. Leon: That’s what I brought. Franklin: Oh, those were wonderful. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:30:12 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9986 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor B Reactor 200 East 105-N PFP Vit Plant Energy Northwest Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1953 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1974 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carlos Leon Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Carlos Leon talks about the hiring process, the friends and mentors he had while working in the N Reactor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/05/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F10b72a1bb887a33181ac6eabae5a358e.jpg e4bfb4cd44077ca2ec6d0844208858b6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F02706db0d9e51e4754e345df41b8f353.mp4 f2c38a4f81e871c00bf44e4b0f9b7d96 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margie Ann McCormack Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history with Margie Ann McCormack on April 27, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Margie about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. ANd for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Marjorie Ann McCormack: Yes. M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E. A-N-N. McCormack, M-C-C-O-R-M-A-C-K. Franklin: Great. And thank you, Marjorie for coming in here to do this oral history interview with us. So I understand that your involvement with Atomic Energy and kind of what became the National Labs and thigns starts before you came to Hanford, and it starts at Oak Ridge. So I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your time there and what led you to come to Hanford. McCormack: Well, I took my training, the x-ray training in Knoxville. So then I went to work in Oak Ridge. And the war had just ended, and it was a military hospital still. So all the doctors were officers, and I went to work for a very wonderful x-ray technician--doctor. He was from San Diego, originally, but he was working there. He was just a wonderful guy. But he got mustered out. And they started to fill in the places in Oak Ridge Hospital there with civilian people. So, a civilian doctor who came to work for us, and he was setting up an office of his own in Knoxville. Well, they had two x-ray departments there. One an in-patient, and the other a regular out-patient one. So I was sent in the outpatient one. Well, there was a young man, an x-ray technician who had been in the service, and the two of us were working in this outpatient place. Well, he came to me one day, this young man, and he said, I don’t know what to do, he says. This doctor, radiologist, everyday is asking me to take some very important attachments for the x-ray machine out and put it in his car. So we decided what he was doing was he was furnishing his office in Knoxville with the equipment ther ein the place. Well, that was--he was stealing government equipment. So, he said, I don’t know what to do. And I said, well, you’re married and have children, and I’m single. I said, I’ll go report him. So I did. And somhow or other, he got word, and fired me. And so there I was, at the ripe old age of 23, being fired from my job. So my next-door neighbor was head of personnel. And he said, well, are you going to contest it? And I said, why? I don’t want to work for him. And he doesn’t want me! And he said, well, are you goigng to fill out some papers to send somewhere that you’re loking for a job? And I said, no. I don’t think at this point, I don’t even know whether I want to stay in x-ray or not. But unbeknownst to me, he borught a couple of folders over and filled them out with my help. That’s when I saw them. So I went home to my home in Virginia and sort of though, well, what am I going to do here? And lo and behold, he had filled a couple out and sent them off, and I had an offer for a job in Texas. So I called the number and they said, yes, they’d love to have me. And so I thought, well, fine. But then I didn’t hear anything more from them. And so in the meantime, I got an offer for a job out in Oak Ridge--I mean, excuse me, hold up a minute--out in Washington State. So I wrote back and said, well, yes, I would be interested in your job. And they wrote and said, well, we’d like to have you. So, I got the job here. And I wrote and said, well--it said Richland on the thing. So I went and wrote out there and said, well, where do I come in to? And I can’t find Richland on the map. So they said, well, come in to Pasco. So in due time, I got on a train and three days later, I came to Pasco. Well, to digress a little bit, I had met a woman in Chicago and she happened to ride out with me. Her family was meeting her, and I was supposed to have had a guy--it was the train came in at midnight. I was supposed to have had a driver to take me to a hotel. I didn’t have any--and I called--it was called transient quarter. And I said, do you have a room for Marjorie Hyatt to night? And they siad, no, we don’t have any record of it. And there I was at midnight in Pasco, no driver, no place to stay. Which is--well, where do I go from here? But her lady that I had ridden out with, her family was meeting her. And she realized that something was happening. So she said, let’s hold off a little bit. And when I called and they didn’t have any rooms, they said I could have a room for one night. So they brought me in to Richland and I had my one night at this estate. I was a little confused about that time. I didn’t know whether I wanted to work for these people called General Electric. Was that right, GE, General Electric? And got up the next morning and looked out the window, and they said, there’s a big river, and tehy told me this was a desert! So I went down and I said, is there somewhere here I could eat? And they said, well, across the way, there’s a big cafeteria. You can get breakfast. So I was all dressed up, you know, and I started across this big lot of grass. I’d never seen one of these watering things that turns and sprays. And one of them sprayed me and got me just soaked. Well, that was the end of the line for me. I thought, well, I’ll go back. I’m dying to get back home. And when I opened the door to the TQ, they said, are you Miss Hyatt? And he says, they’re out there looking all over for you. He said, he found the notice this morning that you were supposed to have come in last night and have a room. And they didn’t know where I was. So that was my entry into Richland. But everything was straightened out and I joined the--I got my job and I joined a group called Dorm Club. It was a single club for all the people who-- Franklin: The Dorm Club? McCormack: It was called the Dorm Club. Franklin: And what year did you come out? McCormack: 1947. Franklin: Okay. McCormack: And from then on, I loved it. Franklin: Oh, okay. How did you get involved in x-ray? McCormack: Well, I went to college to be a lab technician, and then I went into Knoxville to go and they had a hospital there. They had an opening for an x-ray technician and a lab technician. And they said, would you mind switching from lab to x-ray first? We have an opening there now. And I siad, well, I’ll give it a try. And I hadn’t been in x-ray three days till I knew that that was what I wanted to do, and I never did do the lab. Franklin: Oh, wow. So did you spend the war, then, in college? McCormack: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And wehre did you go to college? McCormack: Mary Washington College. It was a division of the University of Virginia. It was in Fredericksburg. Franklin: Okay. And so you got here in ‘47 and you, besdies having kind of a rough first day, you--so can you tell me a little bit more about the Dorm Club, this kind of singles club, and what single life would’ve been like in the rough-and-tumble town. McCormack: Let me get a drink here. Franklin: Oh, sure. McCormack: Well, when I came here, all the single people lived in dorms. You had to be married to get a house. But they had a lot of dorms. They had, at one end of town, had women’s dorms, and the other end had dorms for the men. And the Dorm Club was just a reason for all the single people to get together. Franklin: Okay. Was wanting to get out of the dorms, you think, kind of a motivator for some people to get together? McCormack: Well, we were having so much fun--[LAUGHTER]--that I never heard any complaints that way. The single people just didn’t get rooms. At that time I came, they weren’t sure that Richland was still going to be there, you know, and there was a time where they thought we’d be folding all up. And then the--what was the name of the war about that time? Franlkin: Korean War? McCormack: No. [camera man]: Second World War. McCormack: So, about that time, the war had fracas with Russia. Franklin: Oh, the Cold War. McCormack: Cold War, that’s what I’m looking for, was the Cold War came along and all the sudden, things boomed again. And I was here, came here in 1947 in April, and that summer, they hired 100 new tech grads. And, boy, was that fun. 99 of them were single. [LAUGHTER] And there was all these dorms. And that sort of what spurred things on in the area. The Dorm Club is where we got together, once a week. It was on Mondays. The boys, as I say, lived in the dorms at one end, and we in the other. But there was something going on all the time in the Dorm Club. Every Sunday night, there was a dance. Different places around town, there was two places that had a dance floor and a music nickelodeon or something like that. So that’s where we had the dances. And after a while, we started organizing a few things. LIke there wa s acamera club, and there was a bridge club. There was different kind of organizations. So there wasn’t any reason for anyone to sit around and mope; there was plenty of things to do. The war was still--you know, just finished. The men didn’t have any cars. But as time went on, the fellas started getting cars. And a lot of them were second-hand cars, not what you called the fancy cars, but they had wheels. So that’s when we started doing a few things out of town, like going hiking and camping in the summer. We tried to go to the city when something music or something was being shown, either Portland or Seattle. So we’d go--what’s that? Franklin: Can you describe an average--or can you describe the room in the dorm for me? What did the rooms look like? McCormack: Oh! They had singles and doubles. I was never in the men’s dorm, believe it or not. But it was single rooms, and it was a good-sized double room. And it had two beds, windows in the front. We each had a desk and a closet, a chair, and all the linens were furnished, and we had daily--somebody came in every day and made the beds and everything. We had it pretty easy that way. We were comfortable. And I happened to be in a dorm with this big cafeteria, just like walking across this room. So taht’s where you went to eat. Franklin: For your three meals? McCormack: Uh-huh. Three meals, yeah. It was a big huge cafeteria. Well, the building’s still there. Franklin: Oh, really? McCormack: Yeah! Franklin: Which building is it? McCormack: It’s changed into several things, but the main building is still there. Frankin: ANd the women’s dorms were kind of down by where Albertsons was-- McCormack: Mm-hmm. Franklin: --right, off of Lee? Kind of around that area? McCormack: Mm-hmm, Lee Street. In fact, it was Albertsons I think that they tore down and put some of the buildings. Franklin: Oh, interesting. And so what was--you started work at Kadlec, right, Kadlec Hospital. So I’m wondering if you could tell me kind of about an average day at work? Kind of what your duties were and how you McCormack: Well, I went to work at 8:00. Eight to five everyday. I don’t know whether you’re familiar with the original hospital there. It was one long building with wings. Government issue. And we had a very nice x-ray department with two rooms, two different x-ray machines, and a portable facility. It was for the workers and for the civilians. Once in a while, something would come up and we’d have a busy day of 100 patients, government ones. Others, it was just the regular people around town, like any other town that needed x-ray business. Good equipment. Fraknlin: What was it like to--what was recreation like in Richland at the time? Was the Uptown mall here when you moved here? Or was that constructed later? McCormack: It was a very small town. That’s why the Dorm Club was so busy. There wasn’t much to do. We had two theaters, which the buildings are still there. There is one of them original, the theater group bought the building. Franklin: Oh, the Richland Players, right? McCormack: Uh-huh, bought the building and it’s still in use. And the other one just lasted until not too many years ago, and it was torn down. And that’s along George Washington Way, pretty close to where the--I keep forgetting. The big hotel. [LAUGHTER] Franlkin: OH, yeah, yeah. McCormack: I was trying to think of the name. Franklin: No, that’s okay. Yeah, is it the Red LIon, is that the one you’re thinking of? McCormacK: Yeah. It was pretty close to that. Franklin: Yeah. And so how long did you work at Kadlec for? McCormack: I worked at Kadlec nine years. Franklin: Okay. And did your duties change at all during that time, or were you still a technician for the whole time? McCormack: I was x-ray tehcnician the whole time. Franklin: How was it, being so far away from your fmaily? And kind of being single and alone, kind of by yourself in Richland? McCormack: Well, I was so disillusioned when I left Oak Ridge, and I got out here, and I just felt like I was in another world. ANd I was, really. And I put Oak Ridge behind me and just had a wonderful time here. I actually--you talk about taking somehting out of your brain. I actually forgot the name of that doctor, because he was such a scoundrel. I digress a little bit. They didn’t even wait to get a replacement for him; they fired him. Which was pretty unusual then. So I just couldn’t remember his name. Franklin: Sure. McCormack: I didn’t want to think about him. Franklin: Did you go back home--did you go back to the east coast at all to visit your family the first few years you were here? McCormack: I went back just about every second or third year until my mother died and until I got married and had three little kids. I didn’t travel so much then. Franklin: Sure, sure. And I heard that you--one of the people that you knew from when you first moved here was Steve Buckingham, right? McCormack: Oh, yes. [LAUGHTER] Franlkin: And how did you meet Steve Buckingham? McCormack: At the Dorm Club. Franklin: At the Dorm Club. So he was also living in the dorms, too, right? McCormack: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: And you’re still friends with Steve, right? McCormack: Still friend.s We dated for two or three years. He wa sa great guy, because he’s a local--that being Washington State. We had a good time together, but we just never got married, and drifted away. My birthday--I am one week older than Steve. ANd we used to have birthday parties together. We were good friends, but it just wasn’t meant to be married. Franklin: Sure, and that happens. Well, that’s realy sweet. So you met your husband, Jerry. How did you meet? McCormack: By the time he came along, I had moved into a prefab here--I digress again. For a very short time, when I came here, they thought they wren’t going to be here, so they started letting a few places out to single people. So there was a few prefabs. And there was one that had three girls in it. When one of those girls left, a friend of mine took her place. ANd when somebody in the house left, another one took their place. And finally one day, they called and said--me, I’m still in the dorm--would you like to move in with us? So I moved into a three-bedroom prefab. They only had about three of them left, because things had picked up here in this Cold War, and housing was short by then. So I was lucky to be in one. Franklin: And how was that different from living in the dorm? McCormack: Well, we could do what we wanted to. We had the house, and it was completely furnished. The dorm was a dorm, you know, with all those people. We had our own ways of doing things. I guess the interesting thing was, it became this social house for a lot of our friends, because they would come to the house. We couldn’t do the dorm. Franklin: Sure. Yeah, you didn’t have the space to have people over, right? McCormack: I’m sorry? Franklin: In the house, you had space to have people over and the yard-- McCormack: Yeah, it was just a normal three-bedroom house. It wasn’t a huge thing. But the boys in the dorms loved to come, because they were in the dormitory, too, and just had a room. But it actually was a lot of fun there. We had a lot of good times there in the prefab. We could--no overnights, though. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, of course. When you moved in, did it still have most of the original furniture and fixtures that it had come with? McCormack: If you didn’t have it, it was furnished. All the furniture was furnished in this, even to the linens. The oly thing we had to furnish ourselves was our pots and pans and dishes. We sent the laundry out when we wanted; they came and picked it up, no charge. Franklin: Really? McCormack: Well, yeah. They paid for things back then. We paid $35 a month for the prefab. And that was for all three of us. Franklin: Wow. McCormack: Yeah. And any time anything went wrong, the stove wasn’t working, the lights, we called the number and they came and fixed it, no charge. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty cheap living there. Franklin: Yeah, I was going to say, that sounds kind of nice. I don’t get that kind of service from my landlord. McCormack: No. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Franklin: So then in ‘56, you met your husband. Right, 1956? McCormack: No. I met him in 1950. I was here in ‘47 and he came in ‘50. Franklin: Oh, okay, sorry. You were married in ‘56. McCormack: ‘56, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did he also live in the dorms as well when you first got here? McCormack: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did you guys also meet in the Dorm Club? McCormack: Wel, that’s an interesting story, too. One night one of the fellas I knew called and said could we bring a fella up tonight? It’s his birthday. And I said, oh, sure. So in due time, three or four fellas went and rang the doorbell and marched in. Each one of them had a six-pack of beer on their shoulder. And so I didn’t drink beer, but the fellas did. And so one of them said, Jerry, show us how you can stand on your head on a beer can. And guess what? He did. [LAUGHTER] And then they left. And I never did really know who this guy was. He was just the guy that had the birthday. About, oh, gosh, it must’ve been a year or so later, another friend said, would you like to go skiing with us this weekend? And I said, sure, I’d like to. And we went out to Stevens Pass and we rented a cottage. It was one of those that had the real steep roof and the snow was up to here. So the guy said, let’s go tobogganing off the roof of the chalet or whatever you call it. We’d stand like we were on a big sled, and then somebody would give us a push. Well, I happened to be the one across the top. This guy came leaping up, and he missed with his foot and he hit me in the back of the head like this. Franklin: Oh, jeez. McCormack: Well, that was my husband. I knew who he was that time. [LAUGHTER] So that’s how we really met. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. Oh, that’s funny. And Jerry was a chemical engineer? Right? McCormack: Yes, chemical. Franklin: So when you got married, then, you stopped working at Kadlec and-- McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: And became a full-time-- McCormack: Full-time. Franklin: Full-time mother and housekeeper, everything. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: And so then I must imagine you must’ve moved out of the prefab. And where did you--so this would’ve been ‘56, so you would’ve gone to another government-run house. McCormack: Yes, we did. We went to [unknown] house. It was clear across town from where I lived in the prefab. And we stayed there until, oh, about three or four years. And then moved into a--here again I forget its name. And then we decided--our third child was on the way by then, and we decided it was time to buy a house. There wasn’t much choice. We were looking for a special--Jerry wanted a basement and one other thing. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, there were very few houses on the market, but we finally found one that we liked that had what he wanted on it, honestly. He wanted a basement and four bedrooms. That was what it was. Franklin: Four bedrooms. And what was--the house you finally purchased, was it an Alphabet house, or was it newer construction? McCormack: It was a D house. Franklin: Oh, a D house. McCormack: Uh-huh. And they only made about six or seven of them. Franklin: Yeah, that’s not a very common one. McCormack: So that was why it was nice, because it had space and it was a prefab--it wasn’t a prefab, I mean. It was a government house, but it was bigger and a little bit better-built, I think. And we’re still in it. Franklin: Oh, wow. That’s great. I wondered if oyu could talk about the experience of going through the privatization of Richland, when the governement sold off Richland in ‘58, and how richland changed from being a government town to being a private town. McCormack: Well, you know, it happened gradually. The houses were sold, and I don’t know that there was a great deal of difference in the town, really, except that people were in the homes. Most of them who had bought the homes, they owned them istead. But then there was a lot of remodeling started, because you couldn’t do that until the house was in your own hands. But there was quite a bit of remodeling. In fact, the prefabs, it’s hard to find a prefab that hasn’t been remodeled. You know, there was 1, 2, 3, you know that. And it was hard to find just a little old one-bedroom one, like there were any of the prefabs. Franklin: Oh, sure, yeah, I live in a two-bedroom prefab, and it’s been extensively remodeled. Which makes sense. Jillian, who you met earlier, she lives in one that has been much less remodeled. It’s probably not original, but it’s much closer. And it’s very different. It feels like two totally different houses, even though they’re exactly the same size. From the outside, they look almost exactly the same. McCormack: Well, you understood why, when we got one, and only three or four single gals who had one, how much it meant to all the fellas to have a house to go to. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, yeah, I lived in dorms in college, and I imagine, gathered from your experience, sounds like the dorms here must’ve been a bit like college dorms. McCormacK: That’s an interesting, because my husband says, being in the dorms was like being in college with classes and with money. Franklin: I was going to say--because everybody has a job, so you can actually afford the beer. McCormack: Yeah. No classes and money. Franklin: Taht’s interesting. LIke grown-up dorms. For-- McCormack: Well, they still had rules and regulations, like no gals on the second floor, I guess. Franklin: Oh, sure. McCormack: I was going to say, I never was in one of them, but boys, as soon as they could, they got out and bought--or got into a prefab or something like that. By that time, they were starting to make a few buildings. A single man could get that. A single wouldn’t couldn’t, but they allowed to single men to get in. And if you had two men. And that was the first time for the fellas getting out of the dorms. Franklin: Yeah, it’s really interesting to hear at that time about a group fo single women living together, because the image of Richland then is such a family town, or of single people living in dorms. But three single women living together, do you know, did that ever cause a stir, or was anybody ever concerned about your safety or anything liek that? McCormack: well, it was a pretty safe town. [LAUGHTER] It really was. Yeah, pretty safe town. But there were some people--I know one couple got married and they couldn’t get a house and she came to me and said, why don’t you girls move back to the dorm and let us have the house? And I just looked at her. Are you kidding? But she was serious. Franklin: I bet she was, I bet she was. And so you raised three children in Richland. And what was that--do you think their childhood was different from your own, or--I mean, because Richland’s kind of a unique town in its--everybody kind of works in the same place and many of the houses are very similar, and I’m wondering if you could kind of contrast that with your own McCormack: Well, see, I--living here with three boys was--I don’t think there was anything really too different from, like, if I had my three kids in Virginia. They went to school a block away, and the church was not too far. It had a lot of advantages, really. You know, I’ve never thought about it that way. But they’re good kids, so I guess we raised them okay. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, yeah. Yeah. And so they all went to the local schools and everything, Columbia High--? McCormack: Yup. Yeah, we live right by, a block away from Jefferson. And tehy went there and then they went over to--what’s the one across the--junior high, and then Hanford. In fact, our oldest son was the second graduating class from Hanford. Franklin: Oh, from Hanford Hihg. Oh, so right over here by where we are today. McCormack: Yeah. But it was sixth grade and then two or three grades. I don’t know why I can’t remember. And then Hanford High. Franklni: Sure. Did Hanford’s role--because you knew what was being produced at Hanford when you came out to work for GE, right? McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Was its role in the Cold War ever--how did you feel about that, and did it ever concern you, having a family here, for your own safety, being so close to not only an area that produced plutonium, but also what might have been a target in case of hostilities between the United States and the Soviet Union? McCormack: Well, things were still pretty secret when I first came here. Of course I was at Oak Ridge, see, for a while. And the day I hired in was the day that peace was decided. So it was still pretty army-like. You had to get--are you familiar with Oak Ridge? Franklin: Not very. McCormack: Well, the whole area, the town and everything, is enclosed down there. And you had to go through a gate and show your pass, even for housewives. Well, here, it was different. Here the town was wide open. They couldn’t--you had to work for somebody here, but you weren’t enclosed in a fence or anything. Franklin: Sure, people from Kennewick could drive in and visit somebody from Richland and vice versa without having to go through anything. You couldn’t get out to the Site without-- McCormack: No, uh-unh. Franklin: --you had to have a bus. McCormack: You had to have the bus--the pass and everything to get out there. Franklin: Sure. Do you remember anything, any kind of civil defense measures, or did you ever have to practice evacuations or duck-and-cover, things like that? McCormack: Well, every now and then, the whistle would blow. But we never had to evacuate or do anything. BUt still, every now and then, they still ring that whistle on a certain day. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember President Kennedy’s visit in 1963? To dedicate the N Reactor? McCormack: Yes. Franklin: Did you go out to see him? McCormack: No, I didn’t get to. I had to stay with home with the three kids, and my neighbor went. Franklin: Oh, okay. McCormack: Yeah, I missed that. Franklin: Oh, sure. Were ther eany other events or incidents that happened at Hanford or in the Tri-Cities that stand out to you? McCormack: When they stold the houses, that was a big event? Franklin: Yeah? And you guys weren’t in your house long enough--were you on the priority list for the house that you lived in at that point? McCormack: The house we bought? Franklin: No, in 1958 when they sold the houses, were you the resident that could buy that house? McCormack: They had just said they were up for sale, and the people went over to see it were ready to sell it. By that time, they must’ve bought it themselves. And they were ready to sell it. They were moving on to another place. By that time, they were building houses out north, and they were building a new house out north. And we bought the house from them. Franklin: I’m wondering if--could you describe the ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work at Kadlec? McCormack: Well, didn’t bother me, because I had a pass to go out there. But that was the only way I had one is because I had the [unknown] business. But you just didn’t go out there. You could go as far as the fence around ther,e but unless you had a pass, you just didn’t go. Franklin: Sure. McCormack: Like, there was one special time they opened it up for a day and the wife could go out to the Area. That’s the only time in all the years my husband worked that I was ever in his office. Franlkin: Really? McCormack: Mm-hmm, closed. Franklin: Yeah, sure. And do you remember when that was? McCormack: Give me a clue. [LAUGHTER] Jerry McCormack: I’m not sure. Around--maybe in the ‘80s. I don’t remember. Franklin: Oh, so much, much later. Jerry McCormack: Much later, yeah. Franklin: Okay, that’s really interesting. McCormack: But things were still tight that way. Franklin: Sure. Wow. That must’ve been interesting to see, finally, kind of where--to go out there and see where he’d been working for all those years. McCoramck: IT was. Yeah, it really was. I finally got there one time. Franklin: One time. Even though you had been here longer than he had. McCormack: Yeah. Well, I didn’t have any reason to be in his--that way. Franklin: Sure, oh yeah, of course. McCormack: So then they just made this very special day for the, whoever they wanted to to go out, and that was it. Franklin: Sure. Any other major events in Tri-Cities’ history, like some of the plants shutting down and kind of--do you remember that time as well from kind of the concern over what would happen in the late ‘80s when they shut N Reactor down? McCoramck: Well, I don’t think it was like ti was when I first came here. They really thought that this whole plant was just going to quit. When I got there, DuPont had been from the beginning was here, and it was so soon after that that we were still using some of DuPont’s stationery and stuff. I mean, that’s how close it was. They hadn’t even--General Electric hadn’t even been there long enough to get some paper in from us. So it was pretty early in the game when I came here. But I don’t remember any big catastrophic things happening. You think I’d remmeber these things, I suppose, because I’ve been here 70 years this month. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, tha’ts quite an anniversary. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Well, great, my last question is just what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? McCormack: What I would like for them to know? That we were concerned. Everybody was concerned. But we coped. Everything geared up. When I first came here, we’d have maybe, I don’t know, I’d say an average day of maybe 30 to 40 patients. Then all of the sudden, there was streams of men going out, lined up to get into x-ray. They were hiring as fast as they could. That was, I think, the big change. That was pretty soon after I came here. But since then--well, the talent’s grown so much, too. It’s hard for me to realize how small a town was when I first came here, because it’s grown so gradually over the years. We had, maybe, one or two grocery stoes, and one dress shop, and one barber shop and a couple other things, and that was it. If you wanted to go anywhere, you went to Pasco. Kennewick was only about--in fact, Richland was a little bit bigger than Kennewick. So that was where we went to shop, was Pasco. Franklin: Right, right. Because Pasco was the oldest town. McCormack: Yeah, and it was the big town. [LAUGHTER] Franklin; The big town. That’s so different. I guess now, they’re each so large that you wouldn’t really need to go to the other for any-- McCormack: No, each one has plenty of everything now. Franklin: Yeah. That’s really itneresting. I’ve only been here for a little bit, so I-- McCormack: How long? Franklin: Just about a year-and-a-half. McCormack: Well, you’ve got still a lot of things to learn around here, haven’t you? Franklin: Yeah, I do. McCormack: IT’s growing so fast, this town, that it’s just hard for me to realize it was this little three towns that I caem to 70 years ago. Franklin: Right. McCormack: That’s a long time. Franklin: Yeah, I bet, I mean, just the roads and everything are different. So, Margie, is there anything else you’d like to add that we haven’t covered today? McCormack: Well, let’s see. The Dorm Club is what was probably the nicest thing that could’ve happened to us bunch of single people. Because we all got together and we partied and we went to plays, and we went all over. We were all pretty much the same age. And we all became friends, and a lot of us ended up marrying each other. I don’t know, I think I’d say, my life here, that little dorm club is the thing that made me want to stay here. Franklin: Kind of like a family away from home. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Because most of the people in that--almost everyone in tat club was not from the area, right? You were all from all over the country. McCormack: Well, he--my husband--being the Washingtonian was the odd one. Everybody else was from somewhere else. Franklin: Right, kind of scattered across the US. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. That sounds--especially, too, in a town where there weren’t--no one had any grandparents or any real relatives here to speak of, right? Even just the families had their own family unit. McCormack: Well, you had to--they just didn’t allow anybody in. And I supposed if you had a house, married and had a house, and had a mother to come live here, but that was different. But we single people, we were here on our own. Franklin: Right. So the Dorm Club really kind of would’ve een your lifeline. McCormack: Yeah. Franklin: You know, to some kind of normal life. McCormack: Well, I loved the West. I grew up in the mountains, and I loved the wide open spaces. And that and the Dorm Club were what kept me here. Franklin: Interesting. Well, great, Margie, it’s been really wonderful to talk to you and hear your story, your experiences. I just want to thank you for coming out here and talking to us today. McCormack: Well, I appreciate the offer and I enjoyed it, too. And hope I gave you a few little insights as to what our life was like here in the big city of Richland. Franklni: The big city of Richland. Yeah, I think, just hearing about being a single person and a single woman in Richland is really interesting and kind of a differetn stories than a lot of the other oral histories. McCormack: Yeah, well, you know if I’d gone to the place in Texas was a city, it woudl’ve taken me forever to make the friends I made here overnight. Franklin: Right, right. Yeah, that close proximity and that close--well, that’s great. Well, Margie, thank you so very much. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:44:23 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9986 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Kadlec Dorm Club N Reactor General Electric Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marjorie Ann McCormack Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Margie talks about her involvement with Atomic Energy / National Labs, and Kadlec. She fondly remembers the Dorm Club. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/27/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. atomic energy dorm club GE kadlec N Reactor https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F747083285409584aa00723dbc09189f2.tif 2b9e34e4967576a2865a200f73ec8aa2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 305 Building Construction Subject The topic of the resource Progress photographs; construction of Building 305. Description An account of the resource Looking north east shown is the in-work construction progress of Building 305. Several workers can be seen positioning various building materials (beams and blocks). There are two cranes at either end of the building, with several piles of other building materials on the ground. P-343 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.314 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F96d9ae2568b9f2a3c5938a4d15551eee.tif 06564a4dccec38efbbc7872c336a1f61 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 351-B Substation Subject The topic of the resource 351-B Substation construction Description An account of the resource Looking Northwest. Scaffolding surrounds the cinder block walls of the substation. Three workers stand on top of the scaffolding, one is looking towards the camera while two look into the substation. Another workman is climbing timber framing. P-344 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 16, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.315 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc701fe76ac2fa29771c584964fd49068.tif 97032af6a0867c0e21dc5507c5a769ff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 303-K Store House Subject The topic of the resource Storage Facilities Description An account of the resource Looking south east. Phot of completed 303-K storehouse with venting pipe. One stack can be seen in the background, along with other buildings, and power line poles. P-345 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 16, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.316 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b01eca4b750d8f19286f0b0e9eb3506.tif 6b885df875986dd5537f2b5a2208423c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 313 Fabrication Shop construction Subject The topic of the resource CONSTRUCTION --Progress photographs Description An account of the resource Looking Southwest. Mid construction shot of building 313 Fabrication Shop. Several piles of various building materials are on the ground. P-346 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.317 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1f6d5c693d9e328d85ee31f61335bfa9.tif e6c22c55112e15f43cd3b9b4cdff8391 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 303-J Store House construction Subject The topic of the resource CONSTRUCTION --Progress photographs Description An account of the resource Looking Southwest. Nearly completed storehouse. P-347 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.318 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3731ec1bce8a384024909a93b3350146.tif 0bab852e49e76da9acb50f3b7c4e5572 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 3741 Box Storage Subject The topic of the resource STORAGE FACILITIES Description An account of the resource Looking Southeast. Storage building with one visible window and a vent. Construction debris to the side of the building. P-348 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.319 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4bf8973409d038194f22a508d809bb93.tif f9790dced66d5a9e6e18f1f302c25a94 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 382 Reservoir Subject The topic of the resource STORAGE FACILITIES --RESERVOIR Description An account of the resource Looking Southwest. A lone worker stand atop the reservoir, a hose runs down the side of the structure to a pump truck with #USA-ME-13-2(unreadable). P-350 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.320 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F72a28f6cf180bdf2d380aa1b3769880b.tif 678330f9011c83d0d10a533c00ba7cfe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 3719 First Aid Building Subject The topic of the resource BUILDING --FIRST AID Description An account of the resource Image of completed first aid building. P-355 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.321 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fad339fa5f772a94f324df0982cd9491d.tif a63799fa7d01cf7b954f09f12275c7b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 107-B Building Subject The topic of the resource CONSTRUCTION --Excavations --Progress photographs Description An account of the resource Looking East. Image is of the excavation for 107-B Building. An open pit with gravel and various graded surfaces. P-431 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 30, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.322 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6a41032d98e1a8253b8ece38fc8f7303.tif c42a89e6ae331306b50430c6dc620ddf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 272-E Area Shop Subject The topic of the resource CONSTRUCTION --Foundations --Progress photographs Description An account of the resource Looking Northeast. Image is of the foundation of 272-E Shop Building in-work. Various out buildings can be seen in the background. P-420 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 30, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.323 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcd36b15a6d40e46c91daf6a92179aaee.tif 9ecc130c889b4a3b5756c826b3b73b56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Temporary Substation Subject The topic of the resource FACILITIES --SUBSTATION Description An account of the resource Looking Southwest. Image is of temporary substation with power lines. P-421 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 30, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.324 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcfcee968979641b443c5310f0cb25f2b.tif 2e2b34d61c3a3f482e63cb4ee4f92698 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 221-T Building Subject The topic of the resource CONSTRUCTION --Excavations --Progress photographs --Industrial Facilities Description An account of the resource Looking Southwest. Image is of a deep and long pit with several workers within the pit, with retaining walls and pipes. P-427 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 29, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.325 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd76b6ac066cdbf6a405bdd71dd31e75c.tif 319f06299ab707365f3c2d619cfbd9ea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 221-B Building Subject The topic of the resource Concrete products industry --PLANT, AGGREGATE Description An account of the resource Concrete Plant, opposite 221-B Building. Looking Northeast. Image contains two conveyors leading up to hoppers P-428 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 6, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.326 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56f948290984809efd7e0a8bebea188c.tif d5232cf60ea17e5fc40248655f012571 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 105-B Reactor Building under construction Subject The topic of the resource CONSTRUCTION --Progress photographs --REACTOR --Foundations Description An account of the resource Foundation looking Northwest. Several workers can be seen doing various jobs amongst the rebar, tarpaulin, and associated equipment. P-433 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 30, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.327 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5996bbd7a2d3231aac1cbb1ae7da2ca2.tif 94763092df1e2b041391ce40e2be5dd7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 1902 Water Tank Subject The topic of the resource Water Tower Construction Description An account of the resource Image is of the progression of a water tower. P-436 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 30, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.328 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2eadba8a3d6a7559ef6397ecf449440d.tif 30dc4a6db5e0b861faf0bdd8488bdaff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection Description An account of the resource Photographs from the U.S. Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-1990 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 784 Heating Plant Subject The topic of the resource Power Plant Construction Description An account of the resource Image is of the construction of 784 Heating Plant. P-479 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 4, 1943 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .tif Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HASI.1996.001.329