85 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbbf3dc586775f1c7753e5567306bf63b.mp4 8e590d3c17b06e0c9c433e7f64264265 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Bickel Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: Bus-Train Transportation INTERVIEW DATE: 1/23/10 INTERVIEW LOCATION: CREHST MUSEUM INTERVIEWER: Gary Fetterolf INTERVIEWED: Steve Bickel TRANSCRIBER: Bob Clayton GARY: This is an Oral History / Video History interview with Steve Bickel 724 North Volland Street Kennewick, WA and F. Gary Fetterolf as interviewer. Steve you came up in the transportation department and I’d like start you out with just a little bit about how you came here, your personal history, your service time, whatever you feel comfortable with there. STEVE: Well I hired on at Hanford in March of 1976 March 9th Back in June I believe they had a strike it lasted all summer for 3 ½ months. So I got here just in time for the strike and I worked on the railroad as what they called a gandy dancer working with the track crew until after the strike. Soon there after I went to the bus lot in transportation. In those days it was called Bus and Railroad Operations. Then I started driving bus and very shortly after that I was asked by one of the supervisors if I would be interested in taking a supervisory position. Which I promptly said no. So he made me a lead and had me doing the job anyway so I thought well I’m doing the job I might as well take the extra pay which would be an incentive. So that’s what I did. I was a bus dispatcher / railroad dispatcher and when one of the railroad dispatchers retired I took his position for approximately 6 years. Dispatching the railroad which was quite fun. It was probably my best years of employment at Hanford. And after that I got promoted to mid-management. Calvin Seally and I ran the Bus and Railroad Operations day to day business. I did that up until just before the bus lot shut down and I transferred out to Crane and Rigging. And then from Crane and Rigging I went to K-Basin and then from K-Basin I went to Ground Water which I’m currently at right now and that’s pretty much of a history of me at the Hanford site. I’ve been all over for a number of years. GARY: Ok could you give us a history of the transportation division as far as you know it and start in whenever you want back in the forties or when you came in. And if you’ll hold those photographs up as you go along. First of all you might start a little bit farther back than those photographs start. STEVE: Well originally the original bus lot was a little further down Stevens toward the southern part of Richland. In those days it was considered north Richland. What we considered north Richland hadn’t been built yet. It was down there. There’s a little bus station right across from the school grounds that used to be the location of the original bus lot. That was just a Quonset hut and that’s where all the buses left from. GARY: It was across from Chief Joseph wasn’t it? STEVE: Correct. They built what they call the new bus lot in 1954 and that’s where it’s currently located now. Although it’s not a bus lot anymore the skeleton is still there. And that’s what this represents. (Holds up photograph) This photograph here they had a leveled off asphalted lot. They put a bunch of pipes in it for the busses to come down. Next to that on the bus door side they had additional pipes to keep passengers and buses from intermingling. So that’s a picture of the buses being loaded. GARY: Those are the Flexible buses not the original ones. STEVE: That’s correct. During this time we had both GM and Flexible buses that were operating. These were considered the new bus and these were a 1966 Flexible. The GM was 1956. Somewhere in the early to mid ‘50s. But those are the ones that we were most proud of. None of them had power steering. None of them had air conditioning. They didn’t have any of the luxuries. They were the size of an over the road bus but they had all the amenities of a city bus. They had the bench seats. They carried 53 passengers. GARY: I know when we got those buses they were the latest and greatest and they were really nice buses. We were really happy with them. STEVE: Oh yeah. The heating was kind of sparse in the older ones. The Flexibles had a much better heating system in them. GARY: Can you describe what happened when the ball joints on those older buses got worn? When you hit a bump or something. STEVE: You handled them pretty much with a lot of upper body strength. They weren’t the easiest to drive. Like I said there was no power steering. You actually had to be rolling to get the steering wheel to turn unless you were a weight lifter or something. We literally put our foot on the dash and started pulling on the steering wheel like it was rope to get them to turn. It was interesting. GARY: Those are large steering wheels too. STEVE: Yes very large. And some of them had a lot slack in them so you had to be pretty aware. But after you take the same route year after year after year you get to know the bumps in the road and you get to know the routes pretty good. And the passengers by the way. There was a lot card games going on. When I hired on in like I said in ‘76 there was a grand total of 6,000 employees on the entire site and we had all the reactors running. We didn’t know everybody by name but we certainly knew each other by sight. (Holding up a photograph) This is just a broader picture of the same area. It shows how many buses could be lined up. Each one of those lanes had a sign on it. The signage had for you know 100-F, 100-N, 100-K and the different shifts. We had a sign up next to the building that would show what shift was going because we had people that rotated from facilities and they would need to know what shift was going to what area. GARY: That was one of my questions was to what that sign meant. It was for the 100 areas I know for outage crews. STEVE: Right. And during the outages we would send crews to specific locations whether it would be F or H or K or even D and we’d have the crews report there. And this is just a narrower picture of the same bus lot. It was quite interesting. As you can see there’s not a whole lot of room between the edges of the buses. I think we had less than a foot on each side. So making the turns to come into those lanes and the lanes got worn it was interesting to keep the buses and the railing from meeting. And of course in these days passengers had to walk from the parking lot which was over here down in front of the buses to get in their lane. As a bus driver you had to be very cognizant of the foot traffic before you went on your appointed run. This is a picture of day shift at the bus lot. You couldn’t capture all the people of course because there was a little over 200 employees working at the bus operations when this picture was taken. So this is day shift. And it was in celebration of some goal that we had set for ourselves and achieved. Probably a million man hours or a million miles safely. I don’t recall. The individual is shown here holding a certificate so I know it’s for some kind of ceremony. I’m in there somewhere I just have located myself yet. Some of the big players were over here. Leona Robinson who was the head of Bus and Railroad Operations for a number of years. So we had to have good management support in those days. And then of course like I told you about the passengers walking in front of the busses. We thought that wasn’t the safest way to do business. There was a lot of near misses over the years. We designed a new bus lot when we had to repair the old one. We took out all the poles and the pipes and leveled the ground out. Took up all the asphalt and then repaved it. We decided after going to all that effort we didn’t want to put the poles back in and have the same hazards we had been dealing with the 40 years previously. We redesigned it and this is a picture of the grand opening of our redesigned bus lot with our new busses which were MCIs which replaced the Flexibles and the Eagles. Well we still had some Eagles but they were being run down, This is a larger picture of the same ceremony. And we were also instrumental during the last days of the bus operations of course none of us knew it was the last days at the time but we were instrumental in getting contracts with Ben Franklin to help some of our employees and some of our less-abled employees to get back and forth to work. In accordance with the new ADA laws which were brand new in those days we had some vehicles we purchased and then some that Ben Franklin purchased as well to adequately get our employees to and from their work locations. And that was the beginning of the end for the bus lot. And this is a picture of those vehicles that we were so proud of at the time. And then we had purchased a whole new fleet of MCIs that we had specially refurbished for us. I have a couple of pictures of those as well. This is the same picture at a different angle. GARY: I remember those old Eagles and their squeaky brakes. STEVE: That was the Eagles yeah. We had a lot of complaints on that from routes. We would start so early in the morning picking up our employees that people weren’t getting their sleep. We got a lot of complaints. As a matter of fact there is a kind of interesting story about that. We were working for Rockwell had the main contract out and they were the makers of the brakes as well. GARY: I remember a lot of stories cursing Rockwell because of those brakes. STEVE: Right. Rockwell one of their sub contractor one of their sub divisions was the builder of the brakes. They got a lot of bad press over that. GARY: Also the air conditioning didn’t work very well. STEVE: The air conditioning would work sparsely. It would work. And then if it didn’t work there was no way to roll the windows down. GARY: Yeah that was really a problem. STEVE: We had those little hatch windows at the top. That didn’t adequately flow air. There was a lot of complaints about that as well especially in August. But these new buses that we got they had back up systems. I don’t know of a single failure on the air conditioning with those. They were a good bus. Of course we didn’t operate them long. From the time we finished the new bus lot until we closed was about 9 months. Broke a lot of hearts. A lot of people had a lot of history there. A lot more than me. I had 20 years there. There was a lot of people that had more than that. GARY: It was also very very convenient. As a rider I was always the rider not the driver. And it was very convenient to catch a bus half a block from my house and ride all the way to work. STEVE: It was very good service. We had very good service. We had a number of schedules. We had 28 reporting shifts just at the bus lot. To adequately take people to and from their job assignments and shifts that they were working. GARY: Before we get into the rail one of the questions I had was about the shift pick ups. How many buses actually went per route? You start out picking up the drivers. STEVE: Correct we had a driver’s shuttle. GARY: Then your patrol. Where do you go from there? 100 area first. Pick up about 5 or 10 minutes before the 200 areas. STEVE: Yeah you’re right. But actually it depends on the time frame you’re talking about because when I first started there all the shifts were manned at all the areas and shortly there after in the early ’80s we shut down all the reactors. So there wasn’t as many people. So we cut back on buses. I think what most people remember in the time frame is going to be mid ’80s. And I think we had something like 9 buses going to 100-N because 100-N was still going. Up until Chernobyl. And I believe we had 2 buses going to D area. I think we had 1 bus only going to K. It all depended on the passenger count. On the driver’s run there was a couple of them we had a lot of drivers living on the Stevens shuttle. So we had a bus take the Stevens shuttle for the drivers. We had vans go the other routes to pick up drivers. And we didn’t run the whole route for drivers. We knew where they were and we’d pick them up on the corner. GARY: I remember I live right across the street from where Herman Meyers lived so I can remember the vans coming by and picking him up. STEVE: Right we just made a route to the drivers. It was easier that way because we only had 6 or 8 per route. So we started using vans there towards the end. Patrol as well. Patrol it was kind of depending on what shift it was and how heavily manned it was. We got down to where there was only 1 patrol bus. In the very end we only had 1 patrol bus and it would hit all the areas between east and west of the headquarters. And that was it. GARY: I started riding a bus in the 1970s and at that point we had express buses going out to various plants within 200 east and 200 west. And those would not even go into the bus lot. Usually the express buses people knew which buses they were and they would park their cars in a parking lot or something to catch that express bus so they wouldn’t have to go through the bus lot. They would get out a few minutes earlier. And get in a few minutes earlier. I think getting in a few minutes earlier was probably more important than getting out. STEVE: That’s right back in the ’70s we had at least 1 express bus for each area. I think we had 2 for 100-N because 100-N was the largest passenger express that we had. We couldn’t do it in 1. But yeah you’re right. I remember that as well. We also had express buses from the bus lot itself. We had that express lane. And that express lane was going out to it wouldn’t go around the inside of the site. It just went to a particular location like I think we had one for PUREX and Dash-5 and 100-N that went right there and it didn’t go any place else. A lot of different routes. That all changed when 8 nines came about. I don’t know if you recall 8 nines but in the later ’80s Calvin Seally and I put together a schedule for an 8 nines shift which was kind of interesting because we didn’t get a whole lot of extra resources but we had to utilize the resources we already had. Put in an entirely different shift. GARY: I have a photograph or a slide somewhere of the last bus leaving PFP and going up the hill to that railroad crossing and stopping. I got a shot of it about the time it got to the railroad crossing. I deliberately brought my camera out which meant I had to bring my car out because I was working in an area where I couldn’t take my camera into work. STEVE: Right in those days they were really strict. GARY: But I could leave it in the car. So I left it in out in a nice hot car and got the shot that night. STEVE: We used to have to stop at all the railroad crossings. And the bus drivers used to complain that they would go on vacation and they would stop at all the railroad crossings without even thinking. Because they were so used to stopping at all railroad crossings. GARY: Let’s go into rail a little bit. STEVE: Well unfortunately even though I was a railroad dispatcher for quite some time I don’t have a whole lot of pictures that I can find so far. This one I have has some importance because this was 50 years without a loss time injury for the railroad. So from the time of conception of the railroad out here right up to this photograph here. They had had no loss time injury at all. On both the railroad and track maintenance. Which is incredible. It’s an incredible record. I don’t think any railroad in the world can boast about a term that long with no loss time injuries. So they got all the big shots together and invited me as well and took this photograph inside the 1171 railroad shop. I kept it and got it laminated because I was pretty proud of that achievement. We all worked well together. It was a pretty cohesive crew. Got a lot of good work done. Moved a lot of materials over a number of years. GARY: Now from what I understand a rail between the reactors and the spent fuel processing plants was made to the highest standards of rail. STEVE: We maintained a standard for the track crew did an excellent job keeping our tracks in an operable condition. Even with the schedule we had. Even when we were moving fuel at the highest levels we always kept our schedule. And track maintenance worked around our schedule. It’s really incredible that they did such a good job. They always came through and got the track back in service before we had to get on and use it. They did an excellent job. GARY: I read somewhere that there were 7000 cars of coal annually that was brought out to the areas. That was probably in the hay day. You’re probably too late for the around town type buses as opposed to the ones going out to the areas. Early on they had shuttle buses around the city of Richland. STEVE: Yeah that was in the ’70s and ’80s. GARY: I’m not talking about the ones going out to the plant. These were just going around town. STEVE: That is before my time. The daily bus service. They also had them in Kennewick. Actually they 2 buses going to downtown Kennewick to pick up employees and take them out to Hanford too. That was before my time. And Yakima they went to Yakima as well. GARY: Milwaukee. The Milwaukee maintained the roadbed beyond riverland yard. Is that correct? STEVE: Yes that was up behind 100-N area. Actually it’s behind B area but most people don’t know what B area is. GARY: Do you know when Northern Pacific was granted trackage rights on the south end of the site? STEVE: No that was before my time as well. That was sometime I believe in the early ’70s late ’60s early ’70s. GARY: Also a question about real old times Have you heard when Northern Pacific used to drop off at the yard before they got the trackage rights. They used to drop everything off at the yard in 1100 area. Do you know when that rail started being Northern Pacific and UP started having access to the rail yard there? STEVE: No I really don’t recall. But I remember both of those bringing us coal from different parts of the country. And it was actually before my time when they were in the riverland yard they were dropping off cars and we’d go out there. We had a substantial yard out there. And they would drop them off at night and we’d go pick them up in the morning and deliver them. Whatever supplies they were gasses and chemicals and coal. Yeah that was before my time. I was also a weight master. To be a rail dispatcher in those days you had to be a weight master. So you would weight all the coal coming in. GARY: I remember the gauntlet tracks down here. Did they have similar tracks out at the riverland yard? STEVE: Yes they sure did. Out there by midway. Quite the process. GARY: Take your engine on the track where it doesn’t go over the scales and then your cars that you’re weighing on the track that goes over the scales. STEVE: You know it’s really unfortunate now I think back on it. We had log books. Railroad dispatchers historically have had to keep log books. So we had to keep log books on everything that came in and went out. We had log books there from day one in the store room next to the office. So I had access to all that information and all that history but unfortunately you know you are getting paid to do a job. You don’t have time to set back there and reminisce over what has taken place in the past unless you had an objective. There’s some people that you probably ought to talk to that have a whole lot more history than I do that are still around. GARY: Overtime rights. STEVE: Oh yeah overtime rights. That was our biggest business as a bus dispatcher. You know everything that’s scheduled is kind of routine. You have a set schedule and you just follow that schedule and it’s pretty mundane. However the overtime rides is where you get some excitement because people are calling from every site and every office building there is on site scheduling overtime rides home and you have limited number of vehicles and drivers and times to take people home. That was where a dispatcher earned his pay. You had to juggle if you had a van going to Yakima you didn’t want 6 people calling from 6 different places going to Yakima. You’d have to schedule them being picked up by one vehicle to take them all at once. So it was quite challenging. You had to really keep your thinking cap on. And then when the person delivered his last passenger in Yakima you had to have it in the back of your mind where you were going to send him next to pick up the next ride. So it was challenging. It was fun but it was challenging. GARY: I remember in the later days especially if you had someone for instance going to Prosser maybe or Sunnyside or Grandview 2 or 3 people you’d slap all of those in one van. Everybody always used to hate having people ride the van or the car the sedan or whatever home because a lot of times you’d have to go to one town and then the other town. And it’s only about 4 hours before you’re getting ready to go back out to the site again. You only have about 4 to 6 hours to sleep there before you have to get back and get going. The sooner you got home the happier you were. STEVE: We got a lot of complaints. Unfortunately most people it wasn’t their job so they didn’t need to think about the logistics of it. We were taking people to Moses Lake and Selah and Moxie and clear up by Jump Off Joe and…what’s the name of that restaurant up there on White Pass. Whistlin Jacks we’d even take people out to Whistlin Jacks. So when you had someone going to Whistlin Jacks you had to get somebody who was going to Moxie or Yakima or some place to go with them. Otherwise we’d run out of drivers taken people singly, and then you know you complained about the 4 hours turn around. You wouldn’t get home. We had a limited number of drivers and we had to get everybody taken care of. I think overall we did an excellent job. We really did. GARY: Someone mentioned there was even someone who lived in Wenatchee. That’s amazing. STEVE: A lot of times we’d combine Richland Kennewick and Pasco. We tried not to do that because the cities are so diverse. You could be 45 minutes in one city trying to locate a couple of different homes to drop 2 employees off. So we tried not to do that but sometimes we were forced to. GARY: It takes me right now…my son and daughter-in-law and their family live in south Kennewick and it takes me over a half hour to get to their house from Richland. STEVE: The dynamics have changed quite a bit since the early ’90s. There’s a lot more traffic here and a lot more traffic lights. And we’ve got circles I don’t think the buses would make it through. It would be a different ball game now. GARY: Do you remember the bus accident that happened in the ’70s? STEVE: Oh yes sir. I was on shift when that happened. That was really bad. GARY: I was scheduled to ride that bus out. And my usual seat partner since I wasn’t there nobody happened to sit in the seat next to him and he was essentially loose in the seat. And when that happened he flew clear across the bus hit the far side of the bus and then bounced back into the isle way just in time to be hit by another person coming down on top of him. He suffered some internal injuries but other than that he didn’t suffer any broken bones. One of the passengers at least had a broken pelvis. The bus driver didn’t come out of it too good either. STEVE: No actually there was no deaths and that was amazing. That was a tanker a semi truck tanker that had just off loaded at 100-N and was coming back and didn’t see the light change and actually ran the red light. The bus driver had the green and the right of way. GARY: Yeah and he was the second bus too. STEVE: Right and actually it was really a blessing that it happened the way it did. That truck hit the front axel square on. If that truck had hit a couple of seconds later it would have gone right trough the bus. That bus would have been folded over like a pretzel. So it was actually fortunate the way it happened. GARY: I happened to pass the accident on my way out there. STEVE: Yeah that wasn’t one of my better days. That was a hard day. People started jumping out of the bus. I was out there trying to get them calmed down to keep them from jumping out of the windows because I was afraid that there would be more injuries. There was an emergency exit on that bus in the back. I got people set up there to help them down. The impact was in the front of the bus so of course the normal exit door was blocked with people on top of people. It was pretty…I’ll never forget that ever. Pretty traumatic. GARY: That was a bad accident. Now this driver was a vendor? In other words he was coming out from private… he wasn’t one of the government drivers? STEVE: No it was a truck and trailer a big heavy rig. And they estimated his speed at about 60. I believe he fell asleep at the wheel but I’ll never know…we’ll never know. But he was ok too. Yeah he came through it ok. The speed limit was 35. And they had no skid marks to measure but with the impact I was told that they estimated his speed at about 60. So it could have been lots worse. GARY: That’s about all the questions I had. Do you have any other comments you want to add? STEVE: Well just you know it’s history now and it wasn’t all fun and games but it was a real memorable enjoyable part of my life. I did a lot of things that I’m very proud of. I worked with a lot of brilliant people. It was really a pleasure. I really enjoyed it for the most part. There was days like that one you just mentioned that wasn’t very good but for the most part it was a very enjoyable memorable part of my life. GARY: Ok well thanks a lot Steve. STEVE: You’re welcome thanks for having me. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:32:31 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Steve Bickel Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Bus Travel Description An account of the resource Oral History of work as a bus driver on the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/30/2010 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4A Series 1 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd364f6d0d1585c88248d2008d45d1d67.wma 2afbfb447e243a340e39bbb86fc19f00 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2bfa0ee42c421dfabdcbd6e87342ab04.wma 3840eac3555f3311567d3db228c63d21 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc298b312f8d30cdea50fb5e7d530ce4e.wma dd74e618a102340a57860153b372434f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa71397e4f2f18ad24ed546083ec5ad34.wma 66b8a484b3784e8e6f7721cfb2bc6110 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb2dda667936c945b3c3f294773756b48.wma 1dbcbe021928ff9259c6554b683cb8c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michelle Gerber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dale Geer Location The location of the interview Hanford Concerns Council 3311 West Clearwater Ave. Suite D-200 Kennewick, WA 99336 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data .wma Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 5 hours total. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dale Geer Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource A 5-part oral history done with Dale Geer for the Hanford Concerns Council. Given to the CREHST Museum in July 2007. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Concerns Council. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/23/2007 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .wmv file Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4A / T.2007.006 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b04be0985a935c9e1a0cd36e2c0bf1e.mp4 b7a0a6ff3c846cf683f3690fd2b6fa08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Renee Gackle Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Greg Greger Location The location of the interview Richland Community Center Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: UNKNOWN INTERVIEW DATE: JULY 10, 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: RENEE GACKLE INTERVIEWED: GREG GREGER TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 25.20 RENEE: Hi! We’ll open it up with a couple of questions in the beginning, and then we will open it up with you. If you have any particular question raise your hand or we will keep going. GREG: One comment, we are competing with them. Please (inaudible-I think it is “please keep in mind I have a) hearing aid. RENEE: Thank you. Some of the questions that they have given to me from just this sheet here, (inaudible- and get some juicy tidbits about you) and then get these people to talk to you. It says, “You were selected for an Army Special Training Program? Is that right? Will you tell us about that? I do not know anything about that. (Renee points to the audience and asks, “Do you?”. GREG: The Army and I were into the war and really realized they needed technical trained people; really to protect themselves. So they felt (inaudible). We had to take very hard technical tests and I was fortunate enough to pass these tests. We were actually sent to (inaudible) experience this kind of. (The next 10 or more sentences or paragraph is very inaudible.) (Cameraman was being very noisy…talking making response inaudible. There was loud laughing in background. ) UNKNOWN: Renee, Renee, I can interrupt you as an old friend; you are going to have to speak up. Okay? RENEE: (She asks a question but it is inaudible. Cameraman is speaking and can not hear question.) GREG: At that time my brother had been drafted in the military (inaudible- possibly he had owned a flight or light plane) as a flyer. He is a flyer. (Very noisy filming sounds from camera inaudible.) Something about the 13th Airborne (inaudible) and then they decided “What we really need in the Army is the infantry - the infantry. RENEE: (She asks a question but there is so much noise it is inaudible. The Cameraman is walking in and out of frame. The Cameraman is making a lot of noise with the camera; clacking and clinging.) GREG: (He answers but it is inaudible because of much banging and clanging of the camera.) RENEE: I don’t know a whole lot about that. (Many more sentences are inaudible.) Where and when (inaudible)? GREG: When the ASTP was spent we were sent to various infantry divisions in the state for training; I was sent to the One hundred and third in farming conditions; which was in Haleyville, Texas, and this was a shock (inaudible-they got you a rifle) and had milk (inaudible) and all of a sudden we were an infantry. It was very serious, really serious. What this government would do is training young Private PFCs and then they would be sent away as replacement in Europe. Anyway that must have been “42” or “43” the whole division was sent to Camp Shags’; then aboard a transport luxury liner; “The Monticello” made to carry about a thousand people in peacetime. Thirteen thousand of us were shipped and we landed at Marseilles, France. (Next line is inaudible.) The frontlines were up and beyond that, so we were trucked into where the combat was. We relieved the 45th Division. RENEE: I can tell that (inaudible). What were you thinking about (inaudible) was it a scary thing or…? GREG: Well not at that point; I had some scary times of course; of course everybody does the first time, and a lot of fray point’s things that you are not used to. All in all, I was very fortunate. RENEE: Did you actually participate in combat or…? GREG: I belonged to “K” Company; we called ourselves “The K Company Commandos”, and we ended up with the most decorative company in the Regiment. As in most things, you have your worst day; the first day you know oh so little, and after that things get better. RENEE: Does anyone else have a question that you might want..? UNKNOWN: Did you see a lot of action? GREG: Oh yes! UNKNOWN: Yes. GREG: Actually the German Army was pretty battered-up and it is funny the attitudes; the first prisoner we took, he was sat down with four people guarded him. Two months later we got used to things and things had changed. I have seen where whole companies or regiments were surrendering and we would just wave them back to the rear. We made sure they had no weapons. Sent them back and let the rear people take care of them. So things could change. It was certainly not the first line German Army such as it was in North Africa that we were up against. We ended up; we made quite a dent into Germany; we were past the national line the fifty-third; then in December when the break through, in the north, of “The Battle of the Bulge” we were rushed back to be in a holding position, but we were not actually in it, but we were close enough to see the artillery to the north. We were there over Christmas; then we pulled back and had to retake some of the area we had already taken. RENEE: So about approximately how much time did you actually spend in the…when you were an Officer? GREG: Three years. RENEE: Three years. GREG: I got out before most of my company that was interesting. When the War was over we were in occupational territory; this was pretty comfortable there were really not many duties and you were looking for things to pass your time. I was surprised, when my military service number was called-up to be; leave the company, go to the States for a furlough, and then go to Japan. There were others that joined me, but I was the only one from my company. Well the idea of a 40 day furlough sounded like it would be worthwhile. I never thought it would happen. I got to the shipping point in France, on the coast, when I came down one morning the Sergeant there in charge said “The news (inaudible) is the Bomb has been dropped.” That of course, would be, of course he used the word “Atomic Bomb”. I had enough physics to know that something new and complicated that I really didn’t know the details of. We went ahead, our group shipped out, although, we heard that we were the last ship that left. While we were in route to New York the second bombs dropped, and the war was over. So, instead of going to Japan we ended up in the States early and the war is over; so in a couple of months I go out. I then used the G.I. Bill to get a Degree from the University of Nebraska. I appreciate particularly well that is another story. RENEE: So what did you do to have fun? You said that “You were passing the time in periods like this”. GREG: Well you know it was a time of non-fractionation; you could not even talk to them a German. That relaxed and most towns had swimming pools; guys got up baseball games; you could go up and explore the countryside. Actually we ended up in Innsbrook which was a great place in the Alp Mountains. You could take a trolley from the end of the street, Main Street, right up to the resort. The resort had been reserved for us; so there was skiing there in June and July; because it was such an altitude gain. That is the one place in Europe I wouldn’t mind seeing again; the Innsbrook area. RENEE: Can you think of how many countries that you actually visited; when you were stationed at? GREG: France started in France into Germany and Austria. I might mention that what I have always enjoyed; is an unusual experience; the day we were told the War was over everything pretty much stopped. I had gotten the reputation of being a knowledgeable of photography, 35mm photography. I had taken my own camera with me; I had actually taken more than a thousand shot of various types of action. A man from another company knew I had some background in this; he came over with a jeep, we were doing nothing but waiting he said, “How about going with me to that town we just passed, a bigger town? We just went through the town. Nothing happened we just kept going. He said, “I would really like to get a missing part of my camera.” He had a Leica camera; which was a very good camera; it had no take up spool, and until he had it he really could not use it. (Inaudible there was too much laughing.) We went back to this town, that was an interesting experience, there were no troops in the town; American Troops; you would drive down the street, and look down the side streets you would occasionally see a German uniform, but they were trying to get out of sight. We could not find a camera shop, and finally we saw one building and he said, “Let’s try that one.” The reason he said that is sometimes when we would go through a town they would ask that all the guns would be collected at one place; often the County Seat or something like this. Anyhow, we knocked on this door of this rather elaborate building; well we went in to the main door and then went down this corridor; we heard voices in one room, so we knocked on the door and it was all of a sudden silent. Then we could hear somebody walking to the door, and it was opened and here was this long table with very dignified looking elderly people, in it, sitting on both sides. At the end was obliviously the Burger Meister; he had on a special uniform, with a big ban across show his prestige. We all stared at each other and he spoke to the woman, and she said, in English, in broken English, “Are you the people from your country, who have come to help us form our new government?” I was thinking “Wow! What have we got into?” before I could figure out a politically smart thing to say. My buddy said, “Do you know where I can get a piece for my camera?” She then more or less said to them, “They can’t help us.” She shut the door and we were out. I could image what she was saying, “Oh, their just souvenir hunters.” That was my big moment and I missed it. RENEE: How did you get from (inaudible dropped the bomb) how did you get back to here? In the Richland area and get involved…with? GREG: Well at the University of Nebraska; one of my good friends was an engineer and he ended up working at Hanford, like in the notes. So after I got my Degree and tried some professional photography work. I made the mistake of not being smart enough to examine a town before we committed ourselves there for awhile. We did this in a town in Colorado; Walsenburg, Colorado. Taking over a studio that someone else had started. Well we were not smart enough to recognize it was a mining town and only about half of the miners were working normally; so after a year we decided this is not where we want to spend out lives. We pulled our stakes and I drove out to Hanford here by myself. I checked in with my friend; who was working in radiation monitoring. He said “I know your background is in photography, but they are hiring monitors.” So I checked in and gave them my background. I had a funny thing happen to me there; they said, “When they were examining my photography credentials; you are over qualified for the one photography job we got; but we are hiring monitors, would you like to have that kind of job?” So I took it and I became a monitor. RENEE: About how many years did you do that? GREG: Well I was a monitor for three years and then I became a Supervisor in the monitoring. Then I got into Reactor Administration; I was a measurements person and then when they began closing them down. I got into data processing, and I ended up down at the “Senior Systems Analyst” cataloging the payroll savings plan and the pension plan, and all those things that have to work when you have a couple of thousand who depended on a check every two weeks. RENEE: So what did you do with your pictures you guys took? GREG: Well that is another side of it. I was in a position to keep the home address of all the people in the Company; so I made-up a set of 200 of the best of them, and offered them copies to all these guys. Can you imagine 200 pictures for $12? I sold about, my first $1000 worth of pictures. So that was my first money from photography I had really made. We are still in touch because many of those appreciated they did not have cameras and this is great for them to have. RENEE: Is there any other questions that you have? Yes. UNKNOWN: Where were you when Pearl Harbor was bombed? How did you find that out? GREG: I was still home. I was at home. I was not yet in the service. UNKNOWN: How did you find out about it? GREG: Radio. UNKNOWN: How did you feel about it? GREG: Well our attitude was; they’re so foolish to do that. We did not realize, of course, that they had been building up their military for many years. (Inaudible-we were caught or difficult) I think that was an incentive to get in. I was on a ranch and it left my Father with very little help. Both my brothers and I had gone, but I felt like this is something we had to do. UNKNOWN: When you were in Europe what kind of food supply system did they have for the troops? GREG: What kind of a what? UNKNOWN: What was the food? What did they give you to eat? GREG: Well the kitchen would supply you if they could, but if, in the combat situation you had the K Rations. You know what they are… Don’t you? UNKNOWN: No. GREG: Well it was a couple of packages about this long and this thick, and in it you had one can of Spam; a couple of cookies; some toilet paper; some decaf, no it was powdered coffee. You could make coffee if you had water. That was the meal. There was a slightly better one if you were lucky enough to get it, we call them something else. You had two or three cans a little bit more. What would happen is if we were in reserve for a few days then the kitchen could reach us, and give us something better? A little incident about that I might mention; for the first time after we had been over there for several months; the kitchen we heard got fresh eggs. We thought “WOW” that is something we missed. So the next morning we really lined-up early. Do you know what they had done? They BOILED them! That kitchen crew came real close to being shot! The next day even the Captain got on their case, he said, “Tomorrow you are going to make for each person eggs the way they ask for them.” and they did! UNKNOWN: How long were you in Europe now? GREG: Let’s see, we landed at Marseilles in November and I got back in August of the next year. UNKNOWN: November of which now? That was November of which year? GREG: Well that would have been “44” and “45”. UNKNOWN: “44” and “45” so you were right toward the end? GREG: Yes the tail end, right. That certainly made a difference; the Germans had been heavily depleted. I had another little incident which I really haven’t resolved. When we were following the Germans; the troops over the Rhine River or to the Rhine River they had blown the bridge; even before some of the people had got off it. The rest of them there were in rafts. My company was ahead of me; they went across in rafts. When I came to the edge of the river I found an envelope there, which was unusual, and I stuck it in my pocket when I had time to look at it. It was a series of 13 pictures taken, obviously taken by a professional; a very high rated photographer because it was pictures of Hitler and his top staff; taken eight to ten feet away. The circumstances were a meeting with a Russian, I am sorry, with a Japanese General in a town in occupied Russia. There was German writing on the rear and I have their names; I had it translated. I am trying to think of the right use to make of this. I would like to see it published or make use of some particular fashion; I have not found the right source yet to do that. I have never heard of this meeting; I have tried things on the internet, but so far I have not had much luck in finding what kind of meeting that happened between the Japanese General and the German people. UNKNOWN: So you do still have the pictures? Were you able to keep the pictures? GREG: Yes. I still have them. UNNKNOWN: Those are priceless. RENEE: So how did you get; how did you relate all that with your craft of flint knapping? I understand your wife, and other things you, and Margaret do. GREG: Well when I was still in a one room school, a country school, then we had about 8 pupils in 8 grades. The new (inaudible) I suppose I was in the 6th grade in the library which was one shelf this long. Was about a…it wasn’t a Native Indian, but a cave boy; the story of how he and his older brother had to make their tools or go to the tool maker; from the family would make stone points for them. That really stirred up my interest, however, where we lived there was no river near there; I looked all the time I was there. I only found one or two pieces of little rock that were of some Indian origin; now this was at the edge of the sand (hills or field) in Nebraska. I don’t know if any of you have been there are not. When I say sand I mean sand. When I was 4 or 5; I used to pickup and put into a special box any rock that was bigger than my little fingernail; twenty miles north it was all different. Entirely different on the Newbury River…but this is really sand. That is what you’re ranching in. RENEE: We kind of have to wrap thing up. I just wanted to “thank you” (inaudible-loud clapping) share your life with us. We just really appreciate it. (Inaudible-loud clapping) I am sure that you could share with us some fascinating things. GREG: Is there any other questions? UNKNOWN: How did you meet your wife? GREG: At the University of Nebraska. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:25:23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Greg Greger Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An interview with Greg Greger as part of the Beverlin Summer Institute for Teachers held at the Richland Community Center. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Beverlin Summer Institute for Teachers Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/10/2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4A / T.2010.052.008 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F873f050a6ad41decdf752f410dd039b1.mp4 f75af59d332fd4a697fc84a0384c2767 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eva Dunigan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:24:38 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kpbs Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: CREHST ORAL HISTORY -2003 INTERVIEW DATE: JULY 10, 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWED: EVA DUNIGAN TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 24:26 MINUTES INTERVIEWER: This is Eva Dunigan. Did I say that right? EVA: Yes. That is with one “n”. INTERVIEWER: With one “n” that’s right. INTERVIEWER: She came out of Kentucky many years ago. Her birthday is coming up the end of the month, so remember. Send a post card or something. She married Paul in 1942. EVA: Don’t for get FX. INTERVIEWER: Oh, FX? Who is FX? EVA: Francis Xavier INTERVIEWER: Francis Xavier, okay. They both worked at the University of Chicago, and if you guys are knew to their history a lot of the real center piece of Nuclear power the ideas came out of the University of Chicago with Enrico Fermi and Robert Oppenheimer. If I understand this right, you were able to work with these fellows, and cross paths with them. EVA: Oh, yes I worked for them. I took dictation, typed-up their reports. So that they could send the reports out. In those days we had dittos and mimeographs we didn’t have any other way to do it. INTERVIEWER: The other thing here is when later on just the when the work got going. You and your husband came on out here to Pasco. EVA: We were transferred here. My husband was transferred by Dupont. Dupont didn’t transfer me they didn’t take me on until I got here. The day I got here I signed up with Dupont. INTERVIEWER: Can you tell us what “Enrico Fermi”, what he was like? Are you guys’ familiar with Enrico Fermi? He was the one that did experiments, if I remember right, under the bleachers of University of Chicago as the first chain reaction. EVA: Yea, right, that was Decent, I think that was David, in December 1943; it wasn’t “43”, and I don’t know I forgot the date. We were transferred there in the spring if “43” and we were there until December and then transferred out here. So we left Chicago, December 31, and every one in our apartment was all dressed-up for the New Years Eve party; except for us, we were dressed to go down to get on the Northern Pacific and come out here. We had studied up on the state of Washington and thought we were coming to the “Evergreen State”. INTERVIEWER: So what did you think when you got here? EVA: Well when we arrived in Pasco, actually the train stopped about, it seemed to me like about at Ethiopia. But I guess it wasn’t that far out, but it seemed like it at least, because we had to walk on the tracks for quite awhile until we got to the station. The Pullman cars were way back at the end, of course, like they are. There were a lot of other cars in front of us that had GI’s that were going to Fort Lewis. There were about six of the men being transferred out, and I was with them. A lot of gentlemen opened doors for me and stuff. INTERVIEWER: So when you first stepped out of that train what was……..the? EVA: It was in January, it was the middle of the night, and it was darker than I don’t know what. We then went into the….First of all, the smallest town I’d ever seen. The smallest town I’d ever lived in was Tulsa, OK, of course that’s not really small. When we got here I just thought it was nowhere. We walked on the ties and walked along the walk until we got to the station, and then we went in; there were real dim bulbs on the ceiling. All these people were in there, well I guess there in their work clothes, very un-kept though. They are sitting around and lying around sleeping, some of them even on the ground. It was kind of scary. They kept asking people if they were with the “operations” or “construction”. I happened to hear my husband say “He was with “operations”. So I said, “Operations! Operations!” because we had been separated. The reason they were doing that because they took these “panel cars” or whatever you want to call them, for the people on construction, and took them out to Hanford. We just went to the “Transit Quarters” which they called it then. They had just opened the week before one-way; the Hanford House now. So we did have some place to stay that day. It was still like I said, “So black you couldn’t see anything”. There was one traffic light in Pasco, and later I learned that it was at 4th and Lewis. That was about the only light we saw, because there were no lights on the bridge; although I could see the river down in the darkness. So, that was quite a different experience than anything I had ever had. INTERVIEWER: Did you think most of the people knew what they were doing there? What was the point and what they were there for? EVA: Well they knew what their job was, if that is what you mean. I don’t know what they knew. I knew what I knew, of course; we had the “office secrecy” we did not talk about it. So, I should not talk much about things I tell people. I was never released from that “office secrecy”. INTERVIEWER: So may I interrupt you? So before you left you had to take an oath of secrecy? EVA: Well, I went to work at the University, and I was with the “MedAllergic Laboratories” there, in the information office. That is were we got our reports and did our secretarial work for all these “PhD’s” and what have you. Also, they had the “Engineer” the “Army Engineers” you know like….what’s his name…. INTERVIEWER: General Groves? EVA: Yeah, Yeah, General Groves. They had an office for them, and if their secretaries or whatever it was were ill, well one of us was called to work for then. So, I also worked for the General. I really called them by mostly “Gentleman General” or most of the other ones at the University we would call “Doctor”, because most of them were PhD‘s at least. INTERVIEWER: So did you have opportunity to meet “Mr. Oppenheimer”? EVA: Yes, I met him and Dr. Teller, Dr. Fraunk. I also, did work for them. I took dication for him. I happen to be able to understand a lot of accents. They were speaking English, but they had accents, but I grew-up with the people, a lot of people from Geremany. So I had grown-up with that, I didn‘t have a problem with that. I worked for a lot of them. UNKNOWN: Because of question system, are you doing “Okay”? EVA: Yeah, I’m doing okay. INTERVIEWER: Living in this area, I have heard some stories about…..for recreation type things that people did around here. What was there to do? EVA: Well I….We went to work (hah, hah) and so…the first week we had a room with a couple that lived in Kennewick. They had a duplex, a two bedroom duplex. We were in, we were staying with them and she, we had our, we were more fortunate than a lot people, because she had our meals there too; she cook and served our meals; and packed our lunches. Now our lunches were sort of strange and kind of different too. We might have: a bear sandwich; a deer sandwich; or a stuffing sandwich. That was the strangest that I have ever. You know homemade mayonise on some bread, and put some bread stuffing off the turkey, you know, and then put that in the white bread. I must admit that went in my waste basket. We were at 300 Area, of course there was really not……in Richland there was the cafeteria, big cafeteria, which was…well that building right across the street from the bank. We’d go in there in the morning and they had so many people, and they were cooking so fast. That you’d get a pancake and it was raw in the middle, but the outside was burned. The same with your egg…the outside of your egg would be almost black, and the inside would be just not cooked. I mean really raw not just a runny yoke, but the….That was not a happy time for our breakfast, that is why I said we were fortunate that we had our meals with them. So we were in there until our house was built, and we got a “B” House on Hunt. When we arrived they were digging basements, and then we go to move into the house, it was ready to live in in May. That was kind of different too. UNKNOWN: What year was that? EVA: Pardon. UNKNOWN: What year was it? EVA: 1944. May “44” is when we got into the house; like I said we were in Kennewick in a room there. I worked in “300” and then, of course, like I said I had been in information, in Chicago, so you would think I would go into information. In those days, it was working like them, like you worked for the people in army. You didn’t go in with your origin, you went into something completely different, and so I went into payroll. That was okay, I just knew how much everybody made then. UNKNOWN: How did you like the winds? The dust storms. EVA: I didn’t like those. I especially didn’t like it, sometimes when I lived on Hunt. Sometimes the buses would breakdown; the bus would breakdown I guess from the sand, I don’t know why. You would get on the bus to go home, and you would end up walking. So you’d walk home out George Washington Way, by the time I would get home….of course we wore skirts and nylons. I had nylons, because I got those in Oklahoma before we left. Anyway, that sand went right threw it. I’d get home and have little blood spots all over my: arms; face; legs; and nose. If I happened to get home first, I said “Don’t speak to me” until I get this washed off. We had a very quite time. As far as past-time there were all kinds of clubs starting and that sort of thing. Like I said though, “We were pretty busy because we did get to work a lot of overtime”. You had Sunday off, but not Sunday if you had to do your laundry, your house, to shovel out the sand. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any children? EVA: Ah, yes. I had one son. He works for the DOA, and his name is Paul FX Dunigan Jr. INTERVIEWER: How was it with him growing up in Richland? EVA: He likes Richland. Because he wanted to come back to see us after he got his degrees. He came back INTERVIEWER: So when you got here were they just starting up the schools? EVA: Well, we lived closer to Jefferson School. Jefferson School was going at the time we moved into Richland. That is all we really knew about the school, because at that time I didn’t have nobody at school. INTERVIEWER: After they dropped the bomb….did you. What was the sense, of the feeling of the people of the community? Was it dog low then? Or do you know? EVA: Well I think people were excited they thought, well we finally know what’s going on. I new they were making something to blow stuff-up. I didn’t know when or how they were going to do it. Because I handling all those reports all the time. Even though I was in Payroll out here I still knew what we were working for. Yeah, that was very good. I was telling somebody awhile ago, after this gentleman talking. I got letters from my bother and his buddies who were in Japan. Their Company was getting ready to go into the main storage (inaudible), instead they got to go into occupation, and they went to school for about a year. None of them were getting killed, you know what I mean. INTERVIEWER: So, so, after the mission was completed you guys must have decided to stay here or did you move away and come back…..or. EVA: Oh, we stayed here. My husband like it, he was kept as an engineer, he liked to work. He changed companies though, you know what I mean. They were with Dupont and GE. He went on, and he was with Bechtel and then he was with Westinghouse. The last few years he had the same office with three different companies. He was out at “300 Area”. INTERVIEWER: You guys have questions? UNKNOWN: Did a lot of the people that you worked with did very many of them stay here? Did a lot of them move on and did not come back here that you know of? EVA: The ones I worked with, you want to know where they are now or what did they do or what? UNKNOWN: Well did some stay? EVA: Some stayed a lot of them left, especially the girls, because they went back because their fiancés, husbands and so forth were out of the service and they had jobs where they had been. All the gentlemen I work for are dead and a lot of the other people too. UNKNOWN: Were all the dams in the river when you came? EVA: No, there was Bonneville. UNKNOWN: There’s only one. EVA: And then the one that is up that way on the….. UNKNOWN: Grand, Grand the big Grand Coulie. EVA: Coulie, yeah Coulie. The one at Wenatchee, I guess. UNKNOWN: Oh, so the river was a lot different then. EVA: The Snake did not have all those dams on it. UNKNOWN: So the rivers were a lot different when you went down to them, and stuff I mean, as far as. UNKNOWN: You were here in the Flood of “47”? EVA: Yes I surly was. UNKNOWN: And that was an exciting time, because we were all flooded in here. EVA: Yeah, that was 1948, in fact the reason I know is because my son was born in June of 1948, and my mother-in-law was coming out from Boston. They had to go by way of Vernita to go all that way to get into the station to bring her out. Then some friends of ours did stay with us just before that. They had a room in Pasco they couldn’t get to work at the “200 Area” very easily everyday, so they stayed with us. UNKNOWN: So, now what areas flooded? EVA: Well the river was up here, it was up to where the hill is-up to George Washington. Is that what you mean? UNKNOWN: Up, Up above the dike? EVA: No the dike wasn’t there. UNKNOWN: Okay, alright. EVA: They put the dike up during the flood in fact. That’s why we didn’t get any top soil out on Davison where we live. UNKNOWN: They couldn’t get across the Yakima River. EVA: They couldn’t get across the Yakima and they couldn’t cross the Columbia into Kennewick either, remember? NO RESPONSE. EVA: The other year where the river was up pretty high well, down at the end of New Comer. We were living there, we just moved out of Davis house just before that. Well the river was up the other year just as it had been that year. And the road, the bike road was covered down there. UNKNOWN: What exactly did they have your husband working on out there? What exactly was he doing? EVA: He was a chemist. He was working on Alana Lab. UNKNOWN: He was working on……….. EVA: Alana Lab. UNKNOWN: And he was creating what…..what were they….. EVA: We were not talking about that remember? Remember I told you. UNKNOWN: I can push. UNKNOWN: I heard that when you came into Richland you had to have security clearance just to be (not audible). Just too even go. (?) EVA: We didn’t have to. Now we came in an old car, like an old pasture car, like I said the operation people got brought out here from the station to what is now the Hanford House. In pasture cars, but the people in construction were taken on out to Hanford. Well they were just trucks with some wooden seats put on it on each side of these great big trucks, and that is the way they came in. The reason I said we were fortunate that we got with this other couple in Kennewick, because at that time they had just opened some jobs in Richland for men but they didn’t have women’s jobs built yet, so I would have had to live in the jobs out of Hanford and then go into the “300 Area” and he would have lived in Richland. So that made it a little bit better, like I said I liked having my meals fixed, because I didn’t exactly care about cooking anyway. INTERVIEWER: So, there was a big trailer park out there. EVA: Oh, yes. INTERVIEWER: Was that saved for construction? EVA: That was construction families, yes. INTERVIEWER: Did you intermingle a lot with mainly the construction people or the professional people more? EVA: I didn’t, I really don’t know…..When we went through sign-up we had to go out there for some of or part of the sign-up for the x-rays and all that stupid stuff. That was really the only time I was out there. When I went through their employment stuff out there. Shortly after that they changed so then the room right next to us in the “3706 Building” was being used for most, except for the physical part. Then they moved into town before the year was up. When they got the “ADD Building” and that stood out where the Federal Building is now. We had offices there. We moved into there. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember roughly what the payroll was and how many people were on it? EVA: I don’t remember. INTERVIEWER: There were thousands. EVA: For construction, yes. For operations, I don’t think so. Also, they had monthly payroll and weekly payroll. I was in the weekly payroll, most of the time. INTERVIEWER: If there was one thing that you would want to, say to our students and schools to remember (UNAUDIBLE), what do you think it would be? EVA: I would like them to remember or hope that they would not have the same experience that we had. So many people were uprooted and unhappy. So many people broke up because of that. I knew so many of them where the wife, this was it, she just didn’t want to stay here. It was the end of the world; which it was. I was working it did not matter, I would rather work out here where my husband was than back in Chicago which I would have done if they had not let me come along. UNKNOWN: How did you feel in the fact that there was no poverty here? Everybody had a job. Everything was getting completed; there was low rent; if you needed a lawn mower you come out and got it; you needed a garden hose you got it. There was no poverty out here what so ever and if you didn’t live here you didn’t have a job. EVA: There was poverty in Pasco. I saw a lot of that. Yes, that was good, but I figured we had earned it, because after all they brought us to where there was nothing they had to get us something for us to stay. INTERVIEWER: So would you be able to keep those items? So if you needed a lawn mower you’d ……. EVA: No, you just used it. The neighbors could use it or you had to take it back. UNKNOWN: Are you kind of amazed that the way it was when you came; has turned into what it is now the Tri-Cities? EVA: I’m glad it did. UNKNOWN: Oh, yeah. EVA: Well of course we were just going to be here, I mean that is what we were all told. This was just going to be here until the war was over. Well, I don’t know what war they meant, because we have had a war ever since. I ask them then and I still ask that question. Maybe someday when the wars are all over, uh. INTERVIEWER: Were people relieved once they got here and relieved…..that? EVA: Oh, yes. You have heard of the “Termination Winds” and usually toward the end of the week the winds would be really bad and we were really busy in payroll with their checks and bonds and their everything all… so they could get out of here. UNKNOWN: Termination notices. UNKNOWN: Noise can not understand question. EVA: They were scary, especially like people like….transit men from Oklahoma where they went threw tornados all the time. They were thinking they were getting a tornado of course. They were scary too, because I had never been in those kinds of winds and have never had sand chew me up like I was telling you. We saw them in movies. My friend somehow got, I wrote and told them about this the tumbleweed rolling down the road and stuff like that. They thought I was just kidding. They thought I had seen to many westerns. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eva Dunigan Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Part of the CREHST 2003 Oral History public programming. Interviews filmed in front of a live audience. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2010.052.06 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F46ca93ca3c3cc995d8193d6dc8cc0f96.mp4 9d4c317087f74016ce3dc2c12a475ac0 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lee Nitteberg Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:08:32 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: CREHST ORAL HISTORY 2003 INTERVIEW DATE: 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWED: LEE NITTEBURG TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 8:30 MINUTES LEE: Okay, I grew-up on a farm in South Eastern South Dakota about two miles from next door line; about twenty miles from Sioux Falls. I don’t know if any of you have been back in that area, but it’s a farming community where I grew up. When you go across the Missouri River on the west side of it; it is just like going from one country to another. It goes from farming into cattle country and things like that. My Dad had a farm that was 200 acres. He rented 80 acres. I was born there in 1925. I had an older brother during World War II; he did not pass the physical because he had a heart attack, and he was about 25 so he didn’t get in. Then in “43” or “44,” then “43” and January of “44” I took my physical. I did not pass because I had problems with my feet. So I went into the farming for four years; we had 200 acres that we were farming. INTERVIEWER: So what brought you out……out here? LEE: I went to the South Dakota School of Minds in Rapid City. At that time there were airplane industries; Boeings, there were other airline manufactures, GE from here. I visited our colleges and talked with those who were graduating, and told us about the area and the type of work. I decided I wanted to get involved in the type of work here. So that is how come I ended up here in 1951 and it was during the Cold War; that was way they were getting so many tech grads until they were called. Graduates out of college coming out here. The story was that there were 250 tech grads and 250 secretaries same time. I mentioned secretaries’ fact because Bob’s wife was a secretary in the design group I was in. My wife to be worked down the hall and eventually we got married. INTERVIEWER: It says here that you have obtained your Masters through the GE College of Nuclear Knowledge. LEE: That’ right. INTERVIEWER: What is that? LEE: Ok, GE had a night school going on -a class a week, so it took quite awhile. You went to college at night school here in one of the dormitories which was down where Rite-Aide is now was the women’s dormitories; the men’s dormitories were on the other side of the Federal Building complex. You had to graduate from one of the universities; Oregon State, Oregon University, Washington State, or Idaho. I took Idaho, because it was one of the few that you did not have to put in one quarter at the school if you had not graduated from there originally. That is how come I ended up with a degree from Idaho, but they could not issue the degrees here through GE. INTERVIEWER: And what was your local job here in the Tri-Cities area. LEE: I came here I went to work in construction engineering. I worked as a mechanical engineer; I had a Bachelor’s and Bachelor’s Degree in mechanical engineering. I worked primarily in ventaltion; filteration of the reactors, and so on, eventually did that. I did a lot of piping anywhere from this size (shows his little finger) and smaller up to 2 to 3 feet in diamerter. I did; steamlines, waterlines, airlines, and various types of facilities. I worked in all the reactors out here in the plant doing revisions of these desiginer visions of these various things primarily ventaltion and piping. I also worked in all the separation plants and all the main labatories on the plant. INTERVIEWER: In order to do that you must have had some type of clearance. LEE: Right INTERVIEWER: “Q” clearance or Top Secret clearance. What were the culture and the feeling out at Hanford? LEE: Okay, when I came to work here you had to have a “Q” clearance to work in any of the government work facilities. I did not have a “Q” clearance. They sent me on off site inspection. I was hired in June 1951. I was sent to an area near Chicago, I worked there for about 3 months. Then I went to Stanton, I got my clearance, but they needed help back in Elizabeth, New Jersey next to New York City, so I went back there and had a great big…a lot of fabrication work going on there. Vessels that were going to be installed out here. I got back in December of…. “51“. You had to have 3 to 4 months of rotation in three different organizations. Then I went to work in the construction engineering, and then I went to work in nuclear fields out in the 300 area. I was offered jobs in all these locations, but I wanted into design engineering because I enjoyed that. I was glad that I did. INTERVIEWER: Okay, What did you and your wife do for an evening of fun? LEE: Well, like Bob, we went dancing up here at the Community House. These plays were being put on primarly in Richland. We ended up in a “C” house when we got married. We were married two weeks after Bob and Vi were married in the CUP church, in 1954. In 1956 when things cooled off, we didn’t like the “C” house because our particular locatation the houses were built around a grassy area and the back of our house faced the street. We decided we would buy a house over in Kennewick, so we moved to Kennewick. Both Betty, my wife, my late wife and I liked to see senery and we would travel around the area. We would go to the coast and go clam digging. A minister we had taught us how to do that. We enjoyed that. We would just travel around when they were building the farms up north of here. We would get on these paved roads and all of a sudden…..end of road. You backup where you came from to get somewhere else. INTERVIEWER: What has been the biggest change to the Tri-Cities? LEE: I would say, that the expanison; the number of companies that have come in; privationization; and the number of people that have been brought in, do to that. When we bought our first house after we got our family going we decided it was too small, we had a house built out about three miles out of Kennewick and within about eight years we are completely surrounded. We ended up selling that and that is where one of the school houses on 19th Street is located there in Kennewick. It is the land I used to irrigate. INTERVIEWER: Wow, I see that all the time. I see we have run out of time. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lee Nitteberg Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource Part of the CREHST 2003 Oral History public programming. Interviews filmed in front of a live audience. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2010.052.06 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F121395e1f7746b5cc9f7b4f8a98a73da.mp4 e2eeca2686d4aedb792f93b085729920 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Toivo Pippo Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:22:54 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: CREHST ORAL HISTORY: Toivo Piippo INTERVIEW DATE: JULY 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: Unknown INTERVIEWER: Joyce INTERVIEWED: Toivo Piippo TRANSCRIBER: Judy Simpson LENGTH: 23 minutes TOIVO: I am from Astoria, OR. My first name is Toivo. There is pure Finnish unadulterated blood in there. There is no mixture of any kind. When I came to Astoria I got a scholarship to the University of Oregon for basketball. My sophomore year there our squad played Ohio State for NCAA Championship. We were looking to win that game. There were five of us on that squad from Astoria, all Finns. My next year at school the Draft came along. If I remember correctly, Washington D. C. had a large bowl full of numbers, just pieces of paper. They were going to start drafting guys, of course, at that time we did not have any idea of what was happening. So, all of a sudden on the radio they were talking about these numbers, if your number was called you were going to be drafted. The only thing I ever won was that draft. I got the first number, which was 158. I have never won anything else…. ever. I am sorry that I won that time. That did not turn out so hot. That was the end of that basketball game. INTERVIEWER: Then I understand that you had to go to training. To pilot training. Can you tell us a little about that? TOIVO: This was peacetime and I was drafted out of Astoria. Everything was disorganized; the draft people, the rules, and the regulations. So, when I went to Astoria to be drafted, I asked for a deferment. This was in the middle of the basketball season. They did not understand that, nobody understood that. That I should be able to finish school, no…. they did not understand that. So I was drafted and sent to Portland, OR and got in a line of four that stretched out to the street. We did not know what the lines were for. I was part way into the building and there was an enlisted man at a desk and he said, “Fellow do you know where you are going?” and I said “I think I am going into the Army”. He then looked at me and said “Do you known where you are going if you stay in that line?” I said “No”. He said “You are going to be in the tanks in Texas next week”. He said, “Do you want to go there?” I said, “No”. If you go over to the next line over, you go in that line you are going to windup in the Louisiana swamps. He said “They have mosquitoes down there.” I said “I do not want to go there.” The third line come to find out was up in the snow all that stuff. I did not want to do that. The last line you could sign-up for a two year hitch, but this was regular Army at that time. Air force would not separate there, this was just regular Army. I was sent to Moffat Field which is on Bay Shore from San Fran Cisco, south a little ways. There is a large airfield there by the name of Moffat Field. I think it is still there. Upon arriving there we were the first group of draftees to come to this place. Here you were trained left-right, left-right, canes and all that good stuff. When we got there, they had strings of sidewall tents, with wooden sides and a canvas top. My tent was the second one from the beginning, the first tent. The next morning we were out there, they had a can tied to a nail and you had to go around and pickup cigarette butts, “Police the area” they call it. Next to us was a tall skinny guy, he looked familiar to me, but he was in G.I’s underwear, which was huge and baggy, kind of funny looking. I could not place him right away. I found out a short time later. This was “Jimmy Stewart” he was living next to me. He was living with three enlisted people. This was peacetime, and these guys were tough characters……man, I would not want to tell you the things that they did to the ninth or whatever. I was appointed the coach; the guy wanted me to be the coach of the base basketball team. We started to practice, and we had very good players from around the United States. We played our first game, and he was at the first game. After the game I went to the room where we pickup our mail. They have the alphabetical boxes. Well, Piippo was alphabetically close to his name. So, when I was there picking up my mail, he would show up and we struck up a speaking relationship, kind of a friendship. He would always say, “Nice game”. He would make a friendly comment. He came to all our games, and he was a real good moral character. He trained us to march. Everyday we went out and marched, of course, we were civilians. He had a high voice. So, we would march around for a little while and pretty soon we were all out of step, and bumping one another. He would turn around and look. He would get exercised, and his voice would go up higher, and higher. Then we would start all over and still get mixed up. Finally, he would just literally scream. Boy, he could put it way up there. We weren’t laughing at him, we weren’t laughing at the marching, and we were laughing at him, because he got so exercised. A short time later he was over that. Boy…he taught us, the left-rights and all that stuff. He came to all our basketball games. At that time, they had what was called a “Dayroom” as large as this here. In there are magazines, Colliers and Life, and you could play pool. He would be in there on Saturday mornings sitting by himself in a chair, and very quite. People then would go to him, and talk to him. He would hardly talk to any body. Being that I was acquainted with him, I got the courage to sit down with him in the beginning. We started to chat and I got to know him pretty well. One morning, he was writing a thing out on some paper. I said, “What are you doing?” He said, “I am going to be on KGO tonight at 6 o’clock.” He’s going to sell War Bonds and he’s going to making a speech. I looked at him and thought gee this guy never talks. How’s he going to make a speech? Many of us turned the radio on, and he came on he said “My, my, name is James Stewart. I am a lonely Corporal in the Army. I am not an important person.” He was very impressive, really impressive. So, when we came back the next morning we went into the “Dayroom.” All these people in the “Dayroom “stood-up and clapped for him. They thought that was a big deal. A short-time later I went to the library, a big base library. He was in there studying. I went up and asked him “What are you doing?” He said “I’m taking a correspondence course to get a commission from the Air Force from the Army.” Come to find out he was a graduate of Penn, I think. He really studied, he was a student, so we chatted for awhile, all of sudden he told me “Well I passed it and tomorrow I’m leaving to go to the Air Force”. There were guys like me around who had came out of college, and we could qualify that. We followed him right into the Air Force. Like sheep going over a hurdle. I did not know a thing about airplanes, anything never touched one. Why you going into the Air Force? Well, Stewart’s going. INTERVIEWER: So did you continue to serve with Jimmy Stewart and go through the training? TOIVO: Uh, Can I tell one more story? INTERVIEWER: Sure. TOIVO: The last training exercise we had on marching; this was in a valley near Stanford University. There were hillsides up there, we were suppose to go up that hill, marching on a dirt road, an airplane was suppose to come by and he is suppose to holler “Hit the ditch”, we are suppose to jump under whatever was there. They had issued us with uniforms that had with huge pockets (here). All of a sudden he hollered “Hit the ditch”, and we went hit our belly on the ditch. I looked up and right in front of my face was a bunch of a huge bunch of grapes. We all looked around there, and there were grapes everywhere. We were in the middle of a winery vineyard with grapes in it. When the airplane was gone he hollered “Fall in”. We went out there and he looked at this company and everybody had pockets full of grapes. His voice went up a couple of octaves. He settled down, and we went back to the base. There was a “One Star” General’s car waiting for him. I guess they gave him the word, two thousand dollars worth of grapes disappeared out of the orchard. Well, he wound up in England as I did. We were 10 air miles apart. I think he flew 17 missions, which was not all that many, but he was doing. A very patriotic fellow. INTERVIEWER: Who (Meant to say “What”) is the average number of missions that a pilot would fly any idea? TOIVO: Well, it doesn’t work out that way. I was there early in the air war. London was still being bombed, and it was a mess down there. You started to fly in combat, and there across the channel German fighters were waiting for you. We never had daytime escort there, and after we made it across the channel we made our way to a target. This is a long story. He flew 17 of those things, and I flew 67. The way that works out is that…they said “Twenty and you get to go home”, well when you got 18 they extended that number. When you got the next number they extended that number. Some of those people that were flying, well they were not warriors. Guys that could function under military conditions up in the airplane. Many of them got out for that reason, they just couldn’t. They were dangerous in there, and others found ways to try to get out. The point was, if you were reasonably functioning warrior, so to speak; they wanted to keep you in so they would extend you five; because to replace you, and replace that crew would take a lot of training. Going through the process of finding people that could function under those battle conditions. So, there was not a set, they publicized that, but it really did not work out that way. INTERVIEWER: Can you describe the plane? How many in the crew, and what their roles were? TOIVO: This was a B-26 a multi-engine bomber. Made by “Martin Company”. Last week on the tube was an hour long program about the B-26 and what went on, most of the things that went on. So, it was the first airplane that came out with a tri-cycle landing gear, wheels up front, and wheels on the side. It had four bladed props the first one and it also had a hub in front of the propellers that had a break an electrical break inside there. This system controlled the pitch angle of your propeller; it was automatic so if you needed more power it would take a bigger bite then. It could reduce itself to eighteen degrees the blade, but the way it turned out the brake failed often; then the propellers went flat and you could hear them, wind-up and POW. There were eight people on board; there was a bombardier up front; two pilots; an engineer with a double, double-double, fifty caliber machine guns; two waist gunners; and there was a turf in the far back. If you were flying a lead mission (how to get) there was another person on board. INTERVIEWER: Did you frequently fly the lead position? TOIVO: Rarely. I was what you call a “bomb jockey.” That meant that you could function in the Air Force, which I didn’t enjoy at all. I thought that was a bummer, before that word ever came around. I was a “bomb jockey” and I just took bombs over there and dropped them and back. That kind of thing. INTERVIEWER: At any time during your missions, in later years, did they ask, did they add fighter cover for you? TOIVO: Good question. I had great hostility toward this part of war efforts. When we went there we were young kids; eighteen and nineteen. When we started to fly there they sent the first twelve missions across the channel to a place called “Emodin Electrical” place and none of those planes came back that afternoon. I thought I must be a lousy pilot because I didn’t get to go. Afterwards I said, “Boy, I lucked out of that one”. Twelve more went out the next day and they never came back. So they increased the altitude to medium altitude fifteen, sixteen, or eighteen pounds. Over there is a bomber command, and here is your air field. The bomber commands there are high ranking people who make up the missions where you are going and the whole bag. They call up at night to your airfield and give you all that information. You do as they ordered you to do. These people never had never got out of that desk. I don’t know I think, because we did things that we thought was completely senseless. Flying in the air, people getting killed. I often wonder, I wonder today. Here I am a dinosaur and flew a lot of missions. Those guys who made that up I wonder if they did anything besides pushing a pencil. I still ache about that considerably. INTERVIEWER: Is there, uh I’ve heard there was a nickname for the B-26 squadrons. They called it…… TOIVO: Many, they were all bad. INTERVIEWER: But, you talked about the first twenty-four that went over and did not come back, and eventually call the B-26 “The Widow Maker”. TOIVO: No, No, that was a……. I happened to be in the first B-26’s that were sent out to “McNeal Field” in Tampa. We were single engine students that just graduated. We were very embroiled pilots. Man….and so here they had this B-26 airplane….refresh you question again. INTERVIEWER: Did they call the B-26 the “Widow Maker”? Because of these first….. TOIVO: Yes. I will go back to that. That airplane crashed so often that there was a daily crash of a B-26. You could be on the airfield and you heard the break was failing, and the propellers were like this. They didn’t bite anything so the thing went down. Daily these things went down. I think 150 of those airplanes were lifting in Tampa Bay, and uh “McNeal Field” quite a horrendous number. There were other defects that were never taken care of before the airplane was released to fly. All kinds of, I could go in a long story about the defects that were never ….so here these young kids came over there and they never had …and they were flying a plane that was untested that killed people daily. What else? INTERVIEWER: Oh I’m sorry I was going to ask….we have three minutes left with Mr. Piippo UNKNOWN: You have two and one half minutes left now, Joyce. JOYCE: Would you mind if any of these teachers here ask you a question? TOIVO: Do it. JOYCE: Anyone have a question for Mr. Piippo? UNKNOWN: I do. Hear about that in NCAA championship. TOIVO: That the best part. UNKNOWN: I bet your not hostel about that at all. TOIVO: No, No not at all. Played Ohio State, the Pacific Coast was divided into a “Northern” and “Southern” division those champions played each other. They then were west of the Mississippi and played Ohio State, in Evansville. That was good stuff. I was a sophomore, and I was not a big contributor to that effort. Mostly I think that I was a spectator. UNKNOWN: How many people would they tend to gain in those years? TOIVO: The University of Oregon about eight or nine thousand. They still do the same thing. A lot of people. UNKNOWN: Mr. Piippo when you got back from the war, how old was you? TOIVO: I was 24. That is not the important part, when I came back I was all screwed-up. I was grounded I was a wreck. They called it “Battle Fatigue” at that time. Today they have “Post War Trauma”, I think’ and they talk about that. I have permanent “Post War Trauma”. It is suppose to be with you forever. It changes your personality and whatever. I went to two different hospitals for treatment for psycho stuff. They wanted to shot me full of penathoal. Make you go…bah, bah, bah. I refused, my wife said, “You should of, you should of”. She also says “It’s not too late”. UNKNOWN: Mr. Piippo what would you like us to convey to young people today, uh something to remember World War II for. JOYCE: Did you hear the question? TOIVO: Good question. My point of view; we have a certain demeanor or quality I think that is kind of indestructible, and all that stuff. When you get into combat the shell that is shot is about that tall it was an 8mm shell, and it burst in a ball so to speak-a lethal a hundred yards in every direction. Shrapnel….metal flying through the air. When you are in your airplane psychologically you want to have your feet on the ground. Really. The first time your flying and one of these things explodes beside you; you’re sitting there and you can’t do a thing. JOYCE: I am sorry you guys, I am going to have to interrupt. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toivo Pippo Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Part of the CREHST 2003 Oral History public programming. Interviews filmed in front of a live audience. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2010.052.06 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2472b6066bc89f72477a2fb8616b0cae.mp4 5985fbb9a38d1d887153f0c13d54dfcf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob Smith Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:10:11 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kpbs Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: CREHST ORAL HISTORY 2003 INTERVIEW DATE: 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWED: BOB SMITH TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 10:01 MINUTES INTERVIEWER: Bob Smith everyone. INTERVIEWER: Bob you came to us from Kansas. What brought you out this direction? To the Tri-Cities. BOB: Well I had been a member of the Kansas National Guard back at Pittsburg, KS. It was 1951 and the Korean situation was going on; the Federal Government made active about five different towns around southeast Kansas, and my town was one of them. (Bayberry 159 Next sentence I do not understand what he is saying). They sent us up here to Fort Lewis and that is how I ended up in this part of the country. INTERVIEWER: What did you think of this area when you first arrived? BOB: Well I really thought it was pretty nice. In Kansas it kind of gets hot in the summertime….110...120 was not that unusual. Here it is maybe 100…105….sometimes it may get a 110. Winters here are milder than they were in Kansas. I just liked the area here. INTERVIEWER: Right, liked the area. I have here on my paper that you and your wife had the same babysitter when you were young. Could you tell us a little bit about that and how you met? BOB: Yeah, we were both born in a little town called Cherryville, KS; actually we met at the old community house which is a couple blocks down here. When I did start work here in 1953. To live in Richland you had to be working out at the Hanford Project. Single people stayed in the dormitories, and the other people who their daughters and sons workers had their own houses that they lived with their Mom and Dad with. Well I met this gal at the Community Dance, because that is where single people could meet it was a non-alcoholic event. She asked me “Where I was from” and I told her and she said “What! I was born there too!” Three thousand populations in Kansas. I thought that was strange. I found out later that her mom knew my mom and actually her babysitter was also my babysitter. So, I it was unusual that we would meet out here. INTERVIEWER: Growing-up and working in the “50’s” could you tell us a little about some the Cold War preparations occurring? BOB: Well, the Cold War preparations, like I say, I got here to work at Hanford in “53” and they were just in the process of building the 105 K East and the 105 K West reactors out on the project there. They were the newest type; they were production reactors not the commercial reactors to make electricity. They’d keep plutonium for the atomic bomb. Richland was kind of known for one of the fast growing cities in the nations. Especially even a couple years before I was, they had the highest birth rate in the nation, because it seemed like 90% of the people were in the 20’s to 40’s like that…had lots of kids. It was later known as the “Atomic City” because it was one of the two places where the bomb was built. INTERVIEWER: Being in the fastest growing city in the nation at the time then; what were some of the recreation actives and forms of entertainment in the area? BOB: Well of course, you have the Columbia River right out here; lots of people would go boating, fishing. We did have, we still have an outfit called “The Richland Light Opera”. It amazes me what kind of talent we have in the Tri-Cities. People who work on a project is work in Kennewick or Pasco. They could put on plays that were real good, outstanding. The same thing with the “, Richland Light Opera”; which was a musical group, people would join in from the Tri-Cities, they had fantastic voices. So basically you can watch your own community with what they could come up with. We had the Atomic Frontier’s Day Races; also the Atomic Cup race started in 1966 out here. Which Budweiser is pretty active in winning now, and was then too. We had those to go to; also, hunting and fishing there were good areas around here to do that. That’s what I did in Kansas. Their were ski slopes up around Mt. Rainier, so really it was the ideal location. INTERVIEWER: And with so many people here could you tell us a little bit about the housing situation? BOB: Yeah, the housing; I got here in “53” and it still was a government town; run by the government. General Electric had the contract; to all the business in town paid rent to their stores they had their business in. I lived in the dormitory it was $17.50 a month rent….it would be nice. So, when my wife and I decided to get married we had to signup on the list to get a house, because all the houses were government housing and they were built, they were designed by a guy in Spokane who was well known for his designing houses. So, we put in for a house maybe a month or so before we got married, and we ended up with a “B” house, duplex house one floor type thing. An “A” house was a duplex type that was two story. The houses were just numbered; “A house”, “B house”, “C house”, clear up through to “Y house”, I live in a “Y” house now. It is a recent house. In 1957 the government turned it over to the city and the people got to buy the houses. People with their business’ got to by their building so… if you hear about alphabet houses that is how they got started. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned that General Electric was one of the companies around here. What other effects of business were around the area at the time? BOB: Well now, you had your private business around town, uh Western Auto would get their franchise to do that. As far as other companies; Welch’s Grape Juice was over in Kennewick; Port of Pasco in Kennewick they had a lot of shipping; they had a lot of fruit and vegetables in the Tri-Cities area here. As far as local businesses’ there weren’t to many, Welch’s Grape Juice, and Lampson’s Crane Company which made cranes that are sent all over the world and they about still make the biggest cranes and crawlers for NASA. So there were not very many businesses, local business that got franchises from …………………… INTERVIEWER: As a radiation time keeper what were you in charge of or responsible to do? BOB: Okay well, my first job was a clerk typist. I probably should mention a little bit about that. Being stationed at Fort Lewis we would come to Yakima Firing Center, a couple of times during the year. My buddy and I hitchhike to Yakima, so we were out there hitchhiking and some guy pulls up in a nice new convertible Oldsmobile, brand new, we got in and we were not bashful about asking questions “Where did you get a car like this? or You must have a good job to afford this.” He said, “I got a pretty good job”, “What do you do?” “I am a guard a showman over at Hanford atomic works.” “Where’s that at?” “Well that’s 80 miles from Yakima.” “Gee, whiz what kind of money do you make?” We were not bashful. He said “I make a $100 a week” and that was pretty good for 1951 and I said, “WOW, that’s pretty good, because I just left Kansas as a clerk typist for clay manufacturing making $30 a week as a clerk typist” “Boy, I could learn to be a patrolman for that”. Anyway, I basically put in for a job, and wound-up as a clerk typist making $60 a week. I did that for one year and then I went into radiation time keeper I did that for five years; I followed construction workers around, because they were constantly building reactors here. Following them to radiation zones keeping time on the “radiation zone” because we only allow a certain amount radiation to leave. We had pistol decimeter but they weren’t the kind they have now a days, self-readers that you could look at the light. In those days, you would have to turn the pistons turned in an eye and you would have to keep time on them and that is what I did for five years. Eventually, I went into RH monitoring and that is what I did from “59” until I retired in “93”. INTERVIEWER: Our time is just about up here. If you could just leave us with one quick impact …What was the biggest impact on your life in living this area and your job? BOB: Probably, realizing something magic about the Hanford Atomic Works. Man…Atomics that sounds interesting. I must have been a little curiosity about science, because in being here when they were making the plutonium and top secret information. We didn’t know what these things looked like and it was all kind of fast ending. If we go too far we still have time for one more name. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bob Smith Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource Part of the CREHST 2003 Oral History public programming. Interviews filmed in front of a live audience. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2010.052.06 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d41605628a8446dcd24cb987a5dd7b0.mp4 a56c2763fd26463439fb5c226e0398bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alfred P. Wehner Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:23:41 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kpbs Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: CREHST ORAL HISTORY 2003 INTERVIEW DATE: JULY 10, 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWED: ALFRED WEHNER TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 24:00 MINUTES INTERVIEWER: Today we are interviewing, Alfred Wehner. Al was born in October 1926, in Guesbox, Germany. At age 14 he joined the (Figgler Hitler Juggen) or the “Hitler Youth Flying Core“, to become a fighter pilot. Fuel and manpower shortage led to his ground assignment on the Russian front. He was part of a small force defending Luecow. They held Luecow for two days and fled to the Alp River. His group was then ordered to head toward Czechoslovakia to fight the Russians. When the war ended he was 500 kilometers east of his home town, and 200 kilometers behind Russian lines. He found his way home thirteen days later. Following the war he attented Glazing Medicene and Industry. He immigrated to the United States in 1953. He and his wife moved to the Tri-Cities in 1967, and he went to work for Battelle. Over the years, Dr. Wehner has authored more than 120 scientific publications and has received three U. S. Patton. His research has been in the area of electro-aerosol and intoxiocology he continues to work as a consultant. Today could you tell us a little bit about your story? Growing-up in Germany and how you became involved in the “Hitler Youth Flying Core”? ALFRED: I was born, as was mentioned in, October 1926. ……………… When (inaudible) came into power I was six years old when World War II started, for Germany I was 12 years old, and when Hitler came into power a few years later there was (inaudible). Every youth at the age of 10 had to join what you would call here the Cub Scouts and at the age of 14 you were automatically transferred to the Hitler Youth, had become a leader (spoke in German) which were Cub Scouts. I was interested in flying and the war was still going on. What I did not want to become was a member of the infantry. I love flying, it gave me a chance to put my fate in my own hands and hoping I wasn’t to be killed. I wanted to be able to do my own mistakes and not due to a Sergeants order, who said……CHARGE! The first year of the flying core we had to build our own glider planes. (Inaudible, possibly German) At the age of fifteen I got my first wing, and by the age of 17 I had three wings and was an accomplished glider pilot. At that time because of my age, 17. I was drafted, again I did not want to serve in the infantry, so I volunteered for the (spoken in German) German Air Force. I was drafted, that was in August 1944, at the age of 17. After a brief boot camp I went to the Air Born Academy with three (inaudible). It is a separate intuition like the Air Force Academy here. Like Colorado, of course it was not that fancy. Our flight training began. My aim, my hope was to become a fighter pilot. In February, of March “45” we run out of aviation fuel curtsy of the Air Forces. A general shortage of fuel; so we were given rifles and sent to the east of Frankengo to stop the Russians; which by that time had drove into Czechoslovakia over running the (inaudible). Our troop trade we were 200, the next 20 miles, and we had picked up a 1000 recruits somewhere. We were loaded into cattle wagons and sometimes driven to the settlements to form a new division in the infantry. They drove us right to the Russian tanks. At that time the Russians had started their last assault on Berlin. In two bits of movements. The north Wahshoogah, in the south Bahchoconth in a slow movement to capture the land, and we were driven right to those tanks in Bahchoconth. They shot us up; we were out armed, so we ran for our lives. The Russian tanks between us (shows Alfred moving arms back and forth). About 200 of us managed to escape and we came to a small town called Gluehow, this was Azeeway these days, this was Jewish, Germany. The Nazi official was overall capsule authority in those towns. He ordered us to the trenches, the folks had already dug trenches around Gluehow, and so we were ordered to the trenches. He gave every 10th of us a rifle. The trenches were full of bazookas, and the Russians made the mistake of attacting with the tanks, and we knocked them off as they came. If they would have attacted us with broomsticks that would have killed us all. We held look out for two days. We broke out one night it was pretty and we could see a movie, a piece of junk that came to happen. We reversed our caps and blackened our faces. At the top of our column, I think there were some of the stragglers, top column was a motorcyclist who spoke Russian there were some other armed forces stragglers with vechiles with an 88 gun and two with 22 milimeter guns. We drove these fields….like grapes. We drove right threw the Russian lines. I could see the Russian’s in line. I could see the puffs of their cigarettes. We just drove threw…but that roués lasted only as long as there was night. Daylight broke there were some ammunation fights…battles. Most of us managed to get out. Our general thrive was to go West, West, West, away from the Russians, because we knew the areas where Russians guarded. What they did to prisonors and civilian population. So, we reached the Elva River. The Elva River flows southeast to northwest. We had hoped to cross the Elva River to go to the cross over the Elva to go to the Americans, but somehow we got orders to go up the Elva River which lead us to which is now Czechoslovakia, and that was the last German bastion that was still fighting. The other army groups; Italy, Scandinavia; West, and the German (inaudible). The commander of this Czechoslovakia group was General Sharnay (inaudible) Nazi he gave us orders to fight to the last man. Then he shed his uniform, wore some civies took a plane and flew over to the Americans. In any event, my 9th, early morning was the day wakeup the (inaudible). In the meantime, the Russians had taken Berlin, I think around May 1st , and the combined army groups of Surecoff and Doneff then made a right angle turn south driving toward Braug, only 200 kilometer wide front and everything that was east of that sweep was cut-off from Germany, that was Germany. I had the misfortune of being at that group (inaudible) and we were not allowed off. (Loud laughing from another group-inaudible). Something about being 18. My hometown was 500 kilometers, about 350 miles, west of were I was, but we were 200 kilometers inside Russia. The (something) kilometers and the rest was American occupied the territory. The Allied Armed Forces had already captured all German soliders after capulation. They had to go through a prisoner of war camp. I presume it was to screen out Nazi’s; war criminals or whatever. I had no intentions of imposing on their hospitality. It was an adventurous trip home, sometimes my life hanged in the balance….again, and again. I made it after 13 days to my home town, but of course, I came home to a free country. All the cities were rubble. I thought at the time being used to the German, I thought in my lifetime they could not pick-up that rubble. Survices to say at first, the first three years out of the war were rough. We starved and there were signs the Americans had made up signs on the trees, “Don’t fratenize”. So, we were the enemy, on the account of the trustee’s that had become public at the Concentration Camps and all that. We were tyrants among the nations. The only offered currency offered before 1948 began what was subsequently called (inaudible). From 1948 on you could start buying things again; before that you could not buy anything. Not even a nail, if you needed coupons for suits, for clothing, for shoes, which were hard to get. I got a coupon for a suit because I had grown out of my suit that I had left at home when I went to the war. After a long wait I got a coupon and I went to the store and they didn’t have any suits. The experiation date on my coupon, well the coupon expired, so I had to apply for another one. So that is some of what life was after the war. The American policy at that time was “The German’s Shall Starve”, “Starve to Death” this actually in the only, when the East Germans fought their government under Soviet occupation (inaudible) and then the Western allies wanted a counter balance and slowly the West Germans started more and more power itself, the samething we wanted to do in Iran, except in Iran amounted to weeks and months, where Germany took quite a number of years. So things got better by 1950 except there were still ruins. I had the good fortune to come here, and to find a sponsor. I was always infatuated by the United States as a kid I had models of …about the Wild West. (Loud laughing….inaudible). During the war I would admire the B-17’s, beautiful planes, although they were a curse in the end. Incidently, after the war the number of sports were prohibited, like shooting of course, we taught shooting, judo even foil fencing was some of the (inaudible). Cause you can’t do much with a foiling fence against an Atomic Bomb. In 1949 these laws were loosened and these sports came up again. Right after the war there was no schools, no Universities, no member of the Nazi Party was allowed to continue in his profession other than manual labor. They all had to go through denazivication or there was a (inaudible) board had to go to court. The court consisted of “anti-Nazi” of course there was an initial bias to begin with. There were a lot of people that joined the party and paid their $2 a month and attempt their careers. All the Nazi members, Party members could not practice their profession that was dangerous. My Dad was a dentist (laughing inaudible) in all these times he was arrested away from his patient and disappeared for 5 months. We did not know if he was alive. A lot of these people were sent to France to work in the mines; under very stressful conditions, many died there. In that time he disappeared from the face of this earth and I was alone, but my mother left us when I was 8 years old. I was 18 years old by that time. After five months I got a form letter from an American concentration camp. (Inaudible) camp. They kept him; there was no arrest warrant, no charge. After fifteen (or could be 50) months they told him go home now. He could not resume his practice until he went through the denazifacation process, which took a year or two. The ironary of it all, the people who had to go through this process were classified in five groups. Number 1 was the main criminal types that were (inaudible). Number 4 were the ones that just paid their dues, and had done nothing bad. Number 5 were the one’s who had to prove that they even suffered under the Nazi’s or had helped people who were persecuted by the Nazis. My Dad was classified as Number 5. (Sentence inaudible……lots of loud laughing). I was fortunate to (inaudible) American occupiation; my hometown was in the American occupied zone. I found a sponsor because it was my desire to come to the United States, and she sponsored me then on April 6th in 1953 it is just like a couple of months ago. That is it in a nutshell my experience over there. I was there at the wrong time and the wrong place. UNKNOWN: Were you moved to the United States when you arrived here in 1953 and where were you living? ALFRED: Well, I arrived in Obant, NJ which was the harbor for New York. I lived in New York City for two years, and was then a member of the 7100 Hospital United States Air Force, in my hometown that was where I was allowed to practice on Americans; I was there from “1954” to “1956”, and then I had to look for a new job because I couldn‘t practice here. I could not find a job in New York for an accountant. I met my wife and we married in Germany. I met her (inaudible). We had a 6 month old baby; we loaded everything we had in the car and drove down the east coast line, she had some friends from the Air Force Hospital, so I thought I could find a job. We then drove down to Flordia…..nothing. I figured let’s go to California, I always loved California. I might as well have stayed in Berlin, although I have never been there. Our last big stop was Texas. A collegue of mine said, “Al, if you ever come to Texas you have got to visit us”. So on our way to California we stoped in Texas. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alfred P. Wehner Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource Part of the CREHST 2003 Oral History public programming. Interviews filmed in front of a live audience. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2010.052.06 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbc874714a9ce46aa0bee8c4d9bb87fc4.mp4 818bb2f5e58286ec770358a022e1a1c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Glynn Wheeler Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:19:57 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kpbs Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: CREHST ORAL HISTORY 2003 INTERVIEW DATE: JULY 10, 2003 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWED: ALFRED WEHNER TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 24:00 MINUTES INTERVIEWER: Today we are interviewing, Alfred Wehner. Al was born in October 1926, in Guesbox, Germany. At age 14 he joined the (Figgler Hitler Juggen) or the “Hitler Youth Flying Core“, to become a fighter pilot. Fuel and manpower shortage led to his ground assignment on the Russian front. He was part of a small force defending Luecow. They held Luecow for two days and fled to the Alp River. His group was then ordered to head toward Czechoslovakia to fight the Russians. When the war ended he was 500 kilometers east of his home town, and 200 kilometers behind Russian lines. He found his way home thirteen days later. Following the war he attented Glazing Medicene and Industry. He immigrated to the United States in 1953. He and his wife moved to the Tri-Cities in 1967, and he went to work for Battelle. Over the years, Dr. Wehner has authored more than 120 scientific publications and has received three U. S. Patton. His research has been in the area of electro-aerosol and intoxiocology he continues to work as a consultant. Today could you tell us a little bit about your story? Growing-up in Germany and how you became involved in the “Hitler Youth Flying Core”? ALFRED: I was born, as was mentioned in, October 1926. ……………… When (inaudible) came into power I was six years old when World War II started, for Germany I was 12 years old, and when Hitler came into power a few years later there was (inaudible). Every youth at the age of 10 had to join what you would call here the Cub Scouts and at the age of 14 you were automatically transferred to the Hitler Youth, had become a leader (spoke in German) which were Cub Scouts. I was interested in flying and the war was still going on. What I did not want to become was a member of the infantry. I love flying, it gave me a chance to put my fate in my own hands and hoping I wasn’t to be killed. I wanted to be able to do my own mistakes and not due to a Sergeants order, who said……CHARGE! The first year of the flying core we had to build our own glider planes. (Inaudible, possibly German) At the age of fifteen I got my first wing, and by the age of 17 I had three wings and was an accomplished glider pilot. At that time because of my age, 17. I was drafted, again I did not want to serve in the infantry, so I volunteered for the (spoken in German) German Air Force. I was drafted, that was in August 1944, at the age of 17. After a brief boot camp I went to the Air Born Academy with three (inaudible). It is a separate intuition like the Air Force Academy here. Like Colorado, of course it was not that fancy. Our flight training began. My aim, my hope was to become a fighter pilot. In February, of March “45” we run out of aviation fuel curtsy of the Air Forces. A general shortage of fuel; so we were given rifles and sent to the east of Frankengo to stop the Russians; which by that time had drove into Czechoslovakia over running the (inaudible). Our troop trade we were 200, the next 20 miles, and we had picked up a 1000 recruits somewhere. We were loaded into cattle wagons and sometimes driven to the settlements to form a new division in the infantry. They drove us right to the Russian tanks. At that time the Russians had started their last assault on Berlin. In two bits of movements. The north Wahshoogah, in the south Bahchoconth in a slow movement to capture the land, and we were driven right to those tanks in Bahchoconth. They shot us up; we were out armed, so we ran for our lives. The Russian tanks between us (shows Alfred moving arms back and forth). About 200 of us managed to escape and we came to a small town called Gluehow, this was Azeeway these days, this was Jewish, Germany. The Nazi official was overall capsule authority in those towns. He ordered us to the trenches, the folks had already dug trenches around Gluehow, and so we were ordered to the trenches. He gave every 10th of us a rifle. The trenches were full of bazookas, and the Russians made the mistake of attacting with the tanks, and we knocked them off as they came. If they would have attacted us with broomsticks that would have killed us all. We held look out for two days. We broke out one night it was pretty and we could see a movie, a piece of junk that came to happen. We reversed our caps and blackened our faces. At the top of our column, I think there were some of the stragglers, top column was a motorcyclist who spoke Russian there were some other armed forces stragglers with vechiles with an 88 gun and two with 22 milimeter guns. We drove these fields….like grapes. We drove right threw the Russian lines. I could see the Russian’s in line. I could see the puffs of their cigarettes. We just drove threw…but that roués lasted only as long as there was night. Daylight broke there were some ammunation fights…battles. Most of us managed to get out. Our general thrive was to go West, West, West, away from the Russians, because we knew the areas where Russians guarded. What they did to prisonors and civilian population. So, we reached the Elva River. The Elva River flows southeast to northwest. We had hoped to cross the Elva River to go to the cross over the Elva to go to the Americans, but somehow we got orders to go up the Elva River which lead us to which is now Czechoslovakia, and that was the last German bastion that was still fighting. The other army groups; Italy, Scandinavia; West, and the German (inaudible). The commander of this Czechoslovakia group was General Sharnay (inaudible) Nazi he gave us orders to fight to the last man. Then he shed his uniform, wore some civies took a plane and flew over to the Americans. In any event, my 9th, early morning was the day wakeup the (inaudible). In the meantime, the Russians had taken Berlin, I think around May 1st , and the combined army groups of Surecoff and Doneff then made a right angle turn south driving toward Braug, only 200 kilometer wide front and everything that was east of that sweep was cut-off from Germany, that was Germany. I had the misfortune of being at that group (inaudible) and we were not allowed off. (Loud laughing from another group-inaudible). Something about being 18. My hometown was 500 kilometers, about 350 miles, west of were I was, but we were 200 kilometers inside Russia. The (something) kilometers and the rest was American occupied the territory. The Allied Armed Forces had already captured all German soliders after capulation. They had to go through a prisoner of war camp. I presume it was to screen out Nazi’s; war criminals or whatever. I had no intentions of imposing on their hospitality. It was an adventurous trip home, sometimes my life hanged in the balance….again, and again. I made it after 13 days to my home town, but of course, I came home to a free country. All the cities were rubble. I thought at the time being used to the German, I thought in my lifetime they could not pick-up that rubble. Survices to say at first, the first three years out of the war were rough. We starved and there were signs the Americans had made up signs on the trees, “Don’t fratenize”. So, we were the enemy, on the account of the trustee’s that had become public at the Concentration Camps and all that. We were tyrants among the nations. The only offered currency offered before 1948 began what was subsequently called (inaudible). From 1948 on you could start buying things again; before that you could not buy anything. Not even a nail, if you needed coupons for suits, for clothing, for shoes, which were hard to get. I got a coupon for a suit because I had grown out of my suit that I had left at home when I went to the war. After a long wait I got a coupon and I went to the store and they didn’t have any suits. The experiation date on my coupon, well the coupon expired, so I had to apply for another one. So that is some of what life was after the war. The American policy at that time was “The German’s Shall Starve”, “Starve to Death” this actually in the only, when the East Germans fought their government under Soviet occupation (inaudible) and then the Western allies wanted a counter balance and slowly the West Germans started more and more power itself, the samething we wanted to do in Iran, except in Iran amounted to weeks and months, where Germany took quite a number of years. So things got better by 1950 except there were still ruins. I had the good fortune to come here, and to find a sponsor. I was always infatuated by the United States as a kid I had models of …about the Wild West. (Loud laughing….inaudible). During the war I would admire the B-17’s, beautiful planes, although they were a curse in the end. Incidently, after the war the number of sports were prohibited, like shooting of course, we taught shooting, judo even foil fencing was some of the (inaudible). Cause you can’t do much with a foiling fence against an Atomic Bomb. In 1949 these laws were loosened and these sports came up again. Right after the war there was no schools, no Universities, no member of the Nazi Party was allowed to continue in his profession other than manual labor. They all had to go through denazivication or there was a (inaudible) board had to go to court. The court consisted of “anti-Nazi” of course there was an initial bias to begin with. There were a lot of people that joined the party and paid their $2 a month and attempt their careers. All the Nazi members, Party members could not practice their profession that was dangerous. My Dad was a dentist (laughing inaudible) in all these times he was arrested away from his patient and disappeared for 5 months. We did not know if he was alive. A lot of these people were sent to France to work in the mines; under very stressful conditions, many died there. In that time he disappeared from the face of this earth and I was alone, but my mother left us when I was 8 years old. I was 18 years old by that time. After five months I got a form letter from an American concentration camp. (Inaudible) camp. They kept him; there was no arrest warrant, no charge. After fifteen (or could be 50) months they told him go home now. He could not resume his practice until he went through the denazifacation process, which took a year or two. The ironary of it all, the people who had to go through this process were classified in five groups. Number 1 was the main criminal types that were (inaudible). Number 4 were the ones that just paid their dues, and had done nothing bad. Number 5 were the one’s who had to prove that they even suffered under the Nazi’s or had helped people who were persecuted by the Nazis. My Dad was classified as Number 5. (Sentence inaudible……lots of loud laughing). I was fortunate to (inaudible) American occupiation; my hometown was in the American occupied zone. I found a sponsor because it was my desire to come to the United States, and she sponsored me then on April 6th in 1953 it is just like a couple of months ago. That is it in a nutshell my experience over there. I was there at the wrong time and the wrong place. UNKNOWN: Were you moved to the United States when you arrived here in 1953 and where were you living? ALFRED: Well, I arrived in Obant, NJ which was the harbor for New York. I lived in New York City for two years, and was then a member of the 7100 Hospital United States Air Force, in my hometown that was where I was allowed to practice on Americans; I was there from “1954” to “1956”, and then I had to look for a new job because I couldn‘t practice here. I could not find a job in New York for an accountant. I met my wife and we married in Germany. I met her (inaudible). We had a 6 month old baby; we loaded everything we had in the car and drove down the east coast line, she had some friends from the Air Force Hospital, so I thought I could find a job. We then drove down to Flordia…..nothing. I figured let’s go to California, I always loved California. I might as well have stayed in Berlin, although I have never been there. Our last big stop was Texas. A collegue of mine said, “Al, if you ever come to Texas you have got to visit us”. So on our way to California we stoped in Texas. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Glynn Wheeler Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource Part of the CREHST 2003 Oral History public programming. Interviews filmed in front of a live audience. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2010.052.06 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3aa0d0c4e702033f47aac627f266c07f.m4v 5841fb86b22d3684bccc407b85204e5a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ernal P. Galbraith Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:32:50 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 8717kbps data 317kbps audio Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ernal Galbraith Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Richland, WA Pearl Harbor Description An account of the resource "Life from 1917 including Pearl Harbor, coming to Richland, work at Site until 1982, impressions of Southern segregation, the dust of Richland." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/20/2012 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_4A / T.2012.046 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff77f149142ebe4c48abb5cf77c11a66c.mp4 dd068c320bd42b55f10dc427c0c4f456 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carolyn Hempel Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:36:51 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carolyn Hempel Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From the CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Life in late 40's and 50's in Richland. Dust, trees, early Christ the King school, phones. Infertility." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/16/2013 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource F. Gary Fetterolf Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2013.027 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe41f354219ceb652ca87f8f0da0cb9c6.wav c867c0a3461bad74aac809ddfddff721 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fed07769e5e9f0ad29801eed4d13e30ea.wav 52161e6621895d6a1896f805e10cc512 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F81711e2fc3b43611b753d5fbc65639c4.wav 6593660e18542c11c6ee83c0f129bd1c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe W. Jordan Location The location of the interview Home of Joe W. Jordan Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joe W. Jordan Oral History Part 1 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource 3 audiotapes labeled a, b, c (and corresponding audio files labeled the same manner). From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Autobiographical. 1941 - Dupont, Chicago, Hanford, History of NMC - Measurements and Accounting." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/1/2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource F. Gary Fetterolf Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2006.4a-c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc3fce55f3be0d23ef843be78a36727e4.wav 9abcad04022588feccd2b2ab96726a7d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. G. Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe W. Jordan Location The location of the interview Home of Joe W. Jordan Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:45:45 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 705kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joe W. Jordan Oral History Part 2 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "One 45 minute tape. Use of Gloves in Laboratory. Charging D Reactor the first time. Knowledge of what was being produced. History of gamma measurements. 200 North Area. Houses lived in. Name spellings." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/17/2006 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4A / T.2006.11 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F68a50966fed5c2900b72352e0c57d9ea.3gp 73feeccf5695b857614a38836ab2c447 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack A. Houston Location The location of the interview Home of Jack A. Houston Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:15:39 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 126kpbs Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jack Houston Oral History Part 1 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Segment 1: Early life including Depression years. Segments 2 & 3: Young adult, military, years following military Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/4/2012 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu. Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff71d72eebe869cb3706547f4d5906135.MP3 5928f11d6ad8f2b96a457985a865011c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William M. Ryan Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:47:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William Ryan Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource B Reactor National Historic Landmark (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with William Ryan conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/27/2000 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbf0c0670c9c1e07c696cb3ae8bfffb7f.MP3 21f608b8180ddcb2bb3816d2bc7b4361 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gardner Clark "G.C." Blackburn Location The location of the interview Richland Public Library, Richland, WA Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interview of G.C. Blackburn on audio tape (not video) at the Richland, WA, Public Library November 17, 1999 by Gene Weisskopf, BRMA WEISSKOPF: Today is November 17, 1999, and we're with G.C. Blackburn. And please tell me what the G and the C stand for. BLACKBURN: Gardner Clark Blackburn. WEISSKOPF: People knew you as G.C.? BLACKBURN: G.C. Part of the time I was called Blackie. I worked on the Mississippi River on the dams, and I used to work for, when I was a regular carpenter, I worked for a boss. They called him Whitey. Because I was Whitey before. So then they called him Whitey, I had to be called Blackie. WEISSKOPF: And why did they call you Whitey? BLACKBURN: I don't know. My hair was always light, light-colored, and I guess that's probably why. WEISSKOPF: What projects were you working on in the Mississippi? BLACKBURN: Well, I worked on two different dams as a carpenter, and then I worked for DuPont. We built a plant in Ioway *(phonetic--is he saying Iowa?), and that's why I knew --- of course, DuPont was the same thing down in Oklahoma. I worked down in Oklahoma there. We made stuff for the war. WEISSKOPF: And you were working for DuPont at that point? BLACKBURN: Yes. WEISSKOPF: And doing construction? BLACKBURN: Right. I was sort of a layout carpenter down there. I didn't have to go out in the mud and the water. I worked out of the main building. WEISSKOPF: So where were you in 1943 when DuPont wanted to send you out here? BLACKBURN: When they found me, I was business agent for the carpenters in --- gosh... WEISSKOPF: Were you working on a project? BLACKBURN: No. I had a regular office and everything. When I got a call from Oklahoma job from my business agent in Savanna, Illinois, wanting to know if I wanted his job. And I said "Well, it's close to home, my family's there and everything," so I quit that job and come back up there. And he retired, and I got elected by full vote. So I was there about two years or so, maybe three, and this recruiter come along for this job out here. And he said "I'm looking for carpenters." He said, "And by the way, maybe you want to go out." And I said I would as a foreman, but not as a carpenter. So he said "Well, we need foremen, too." So I had three carpenters that come out with me. I drove out here from there. I didn't ever see the West like this before. And we got out here. WEISSKOPF: And about what time was that? In October? BLACKBURN: That was about the last --- in the last three days of October, I think it was. WEISSKOPF: Now, you said you had a family. They were still back in --- BLACKBURN: They were still back there, because I had bought a house in Savanna. WEISSKOPF: Savanna, Illinois. BLACKBURN: Yeah. So they stayed there, and I come out here. And the first thing they said to me when I got to their office the next morning was I'd have to work with my tools for a week before I could... And I said, "Well, who's the manager?" And they told me, and I said "Well, by God, I know him. I better go see him." I went and seen him, and he said --- shook hands, and he said that --- he was the top dog at the Oklahoma job when I was there, so he knew me from there. And I told him, I said "Somebody's wanting me to work with my tools." He said "You don't have to work with your tools, you've been in DuPont too long, you know all their safeties and all that." WEISSKOPF: Do you remember his name? BLACKBURN: I can't --- there's a lot of names I can remember. WEISSKOPF: What was he in charge of at Hanford? BLACKBURN: All the carpenter work. All the carpenter construction. WEISSKOPF: Okay. So instead of picking up your tools, you were a foreman. BLACKBURN: Yeah, I was a foreman right off the bat. He gave me, oh, about fifteen guys and three or four helpers. And the first day I worked right in Hanford. We were building the places to eat, and stuff like that, you know. WEISSKOPF: In the construction camp? BLACKBURN: Yeah. And before the day was out, why, a guy come around to me and said "I understand that you're a heavy construction worker." I said that's all --- I knew more of that than I did this kind of work. So he said "You pick out about five of your best men, and tomorrow morning hit the bus to the area, West area." So I did, and I got out there, and they had me another 15 carpenters, and I had 20 carpenters, and about 8 helpers. And T Plant was just a big hole in the ground. A big hole in the ground. WEISSKOPF: Had they even started pouring concrete yet? BLACKBURN: Seems to me that there had been a little concrete poured in the basement. WEISSKOPF: I think one of the things I read was that they started it well before then, but very little work was done --- BLACKBURN: Yeah, very little. WEISSKOPF: --- because the reactors were getting a lot of the materials --- BLACKBURN: Well, they were getting attention. WEISSKOPF: Yeah. BLACKBURN: Also, they were making blueprints in Chicago, and we got new blueprints about every day. WEISSKOPF: Revised, or just more of them? BLACKBURN: Well, some of them were revised, some of them were --- as we went along, that's the way it worked. WEISSKOPF: But every day did you have some specific part of the project that there were blueprints --- BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: --- and it was laid out? BLACKBURN: I was foreman over the 224 and 221, both carpenter crews. There was probably about five at that time, in the plant there were about five, or maybe four, carpenter foremen, and each one of them had a crew there. So we put that building up pretty fast. WEISSKOPF: And I guess was a lot of the work just doing concrete forming? BLACKBURN: Most of it was forming and stuff. Like I said about our blueprints, they had the blueprints all in a little house, and we could come in, the foremen could come in there and get out the blueprint and take measurements and all that different stuff, and put that on a piece of paper and go out again. But we couldn't take the blueprints out. WEISSKOPF: How many times a day would you have to go back in there? BLACKBURN: Oh, about twice, I guess. WEISSKOPF: That's all? BLACKBURN: At noon, morning and noon. WEISSKOPF: And you were able to take enough notes that could --- BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: How was that different from a regular job? How might you deal with blueprints on a regular job? BLACKBURN: Well, we could carry the blueprints when I worked in Oklahoma, and stuff like that. WEISSKOPF: Wouldn't you be referring to them many, many times a day? BLACKBURN: Probably quite a bit. Especially on some certain jobs. WEISSKOPF: So how were you able at Hanford just to look at this huge set of plans twice a day? BLACKBURN: Well, it was such a large job. And when you put in one deal for concrete, why, it took piles of concrete to fill that up. WEISSKOPF: So you said "We have to make this set of forms this morning," it might be 500 feet long, or something like that? BLACKBURN: We made an awful big plan, and used the big rigs. And at the same time we were building that one, why, we were building the 24. And I had men in each place. WEISSKOPF: What did they tell you the building was going to be? BLACKBURN: Nothing, at that time. All we had to do was guess, because we had so much concrete. WEISSKOPF: You were starting to get a feel for how big it was? BLACKBURN: Oh, yeah. Gene, it was a big one. And I knew it had to be some explosive, but I didn't know what kind. WEISSKOPF: It was DuPont, and it was the war. BLACKBURN: See, I was a carpenter on the plant in Savanna, about six miles out of Savanna, where we made the regular bombs and everything like that, so I got to see how they were made, and packed, and painted, and everything like that pretty well, because I was up there during that time. WEISSKOPF: Were you surprised at how thick the walls were? BLACKBURN: Oh, God, yes. On the dams, we had walls, oh, a foot and a half, two foot thick, and got out here and run into six foot, seven foot walls, so I knew something had to be an explosive. But they --- we never said anything. We didn't dare tell our families, or anything like that, what was going on. WEISSKOPF: When you were forming up, say, walls, and you started from the bottom and you realized they were seven feet thick, did you form them all the way up, or what was the work --- BLACKBURN: Well, you formed one set about, oh, around 18 foot high, and then you poured concrete there, and then you went from --- you'd pull the vans* up, and you go up, keep going up. WEISSKOPF: And the rebar would continue on up? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: So you started well below grade, then, right? BLACKBURN: Oh, we were right --- a big hole. A big hole. I'm just guessing now that the hole itself was 35, 40 foot deep. It was pretty --- they put a (inaudible)* in the bottom of it. Because that had to be deep concrete underneath the cells in there, you know, and the cells are all down under the ground. WEISSKOPF: Were they calling them cells at the time, when you were forming up all these components? BLACKBURN: I don't know what we called them. WEISSKOPF: Because, on the one hand, it makes it real easy if everybody refers to everything in the same way, but if they're not allowed to tell you what the real name is, then everybody might end up using a different name. BLACKBURN: Using everything. That's right. WEISSKOPF: So you were working with rebar inside the walls, but at some point as you got up there was a lot of piping, too. BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: And were you dealing with that with your forming? BLACKBURN: Carpenters didn't deal with piping. There were piping people that was putting in there before we poured concrete. WEISSKOPF: But who was cutting holes in the form and making sure the holes were in the --- BLACKBURN: We cut holes in the forms and stuff. WEISSKOPF: Was that pretty straightforward? BLACKBURN: Some of the same forms we could use for a lot of different cells. See, really, 221 was built, well, in a way a little bit sloppy, but each cell was pretty much the same as the other. WEISSKOPF: Right. BLACKBURN: Until you got down to where we brought in the metal, and stuff like that. (Inaudible)* and stuff like that down there. And then, of course, we had to build a track. Tracks come in the --- WEISSKOPF: For the train? BLACKBURN: Yeah. I guess you could call the east end, the east end of T Plant, I guess. And the tanks and a lot of all the equipment practically come into the deal through the railroad and through where we put the dissolvers afterwards. Big tanks. There was no way of putting them in through the doors. I had two guys for several months, all they done is build the entrance to the canyon. And after the first months using the blueprints, after that we didn't need a blueprint, we knew just what they were doing. They were all the same, and along about every hundred feet we put an entry into it. And the entry was a level at the top of the settles. So everything from there was down under the ground, see. WEISSKOPF: And the entries you're talking about were on the smokestack side of the building, that went into the canyon itself? BLACKBURN: Entries were all on the --- let's see. That was east, that would be on the south side. WEISSKOPF: Southeast side? BLACKBURN: South, yeah, of the canyon, the whole length. WEISSKOPF: And on the other side of the canyon, the long side, the gallery side --- BLACKBURN: That's right, the gallery. WEISSKOPF: They had their own entrances. BLACKBURN: Oh, yeah. We had the offices, all that on that side. WEISSKOPF: On the entrances that went into the canyon, do you remember how those were built up? BLACKBURN: Well, they started out like this. And we put steps up to here, and then we put steps this way, and then we put steps into the canyon, and that's where the doors were. WEISSKOPF: And those were also thick walls. BLACKBURN: So that anything from inside would not affect the outside at all, the radiation or anything. WEISSKOPF: Was the door anything special? Did you ever see the door? Were you around for that? BLACKBURN: Them doors, it's just heavy wood, stuff like that. They were thick and heavy, I remember that. WEISSKOPF: Back to the building of the forms for a 7 foot wall is in itself no big deal. But do you remember how precise they asked you to make the forming? BLACKBURN: Oh, the forming, they wanted it just as close as possible. The forms inside, and then they made all the covers for the cells outside. That was a different game. WEISSKOPF: I've seen pictures of that. But you were forming up the cells themselves? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes, on the cells themselves. And we had to have them just almost perfect according to the engineers in order for these big tops to fit in just right, see. WEISSKOPF: As a matter of comparison, what were your tolerances on other jobs for DuPont, when you were just building a normal type of a factory? BLACKBURN: Well, probably half, three-quarters of an inch on a lot of work. But this one here, we tried to be underneath the half-inch. WEISSKOPF: And when you were forming the cells, did they have metal forms or premade forms? BLACKBURN: We had premade forms that stuck in there. I can't remember what they were made of. I think they were metal. We used them in every cell, the same ones, just moved on down the cells. WEISSKOPF: Did they have the holes for all the fittings that came into the cells? BLACKBURN: Yeah. There, we put in plugs, what we called plugs, and they had to go through the concrete. And some of them come from the other cells, and some of them come in there up where we added chemicals and stuff down through there. And electrical deals, to put electric lines and like that, a lot of that stuff in there. WEISSKOPF: Were you there when they poured concrete? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: So you were there from building the forms and taking the forms down later on. BLACKBURN: At the same time. Most of the forms, like I said, when they poured up to this level, why, then you just pulled the forms up with the big train heads*. And we used some of the same bolts that we used to get the bottoms in, and we'd use the same thing up at the top. WEISSKOPF: The cells were what? Twenty feet deep, something like that, plus the thickness of the covers. They were very deep. BLACKBURN: The cells were all at least 20 foot deep. WEISSKOPF: You didn't pour those in one pour, then, that depth? I was wondering how you used those reusable forms. BLACKBURN: Some of the forms was pulled up inside, too. I think they were pouring 15 to 20, almost 20 foot concrete. We had a big machine set up for concrete. You didn't bring trucks in. The trucks just put it into the big machines, and the machines come and we pour the concrete, why, it was just a steady stream. WEISSKOPF: It was pumped in? BLACKBURN: Yeah, pumped in. And fellows worked in there in what we used to call --- I can't think of what we used to call them. WEISSKOPF: To tamp down the concrete? BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: Were they vibrators? BLACKBURN: Well, that's what they were, but we had names for them. WEISSKOPF: How did you stick a vibrator down into a 7 foot thick wall that was just packed full of piping and conduit and stuff like that? BLACKBURN: Well, you could do that. We used both kinds. One vibrator was about that big. WEISSKOPF: About three inches across? BLACKBURN: Well, not quite three inches. Probably two and a half. And long, about like that, you know. WEISSKOPF: Two feet? BLACKBURN: And then we had what we called a pineapple that roared when you put it in concrete, and it just has it all over. Had both kinds. WEISSKOPF: And if any of those pipes had been bumped or knocked or dislodged, it would have been real trouble. Was everybody extra careful, or was it in there --- BLACKBURN: Oh, I'm sure it was. We didn't seem to have any problem that way. WEISSKOPF: Okay. BLACKBURN: See, a lot of the pipes themselves, if I remember right, we put in what we called jockeys for these holes, and then the pipes was put in some of them afterwards. WEISSKOPF: Oh. Through channels in the concrete? BLACKBURN: Yeah, that's right. Then afterwards they put these heads on these lines so that the crane could bring in a pipe, all different rods, and put it on to there and then tighten it up. WEISSKOPF: Uh-huh, I've seen pictures. BLACKBURN: Our biggest problem was the gaskets. When they started leaking, why, you had to pull off the jumper, we called them jumpers. You had to pull them off and put in a new one because they would be too hot, some of them would be too hot. If they were chemical jumpers, you could bring them out and redo the deal. But the whole system for 221-T was very simple. Very simple. All we did is bring in the slugs and take the aluminum coats off that we had put on in 300 area. Because, see, I worked a few weeks in 300 area also on making those slugs before I was chosen to go out to 231 Building. WEISSKOPF: Is that where you first met Roger Hultgren? BLACKBURN: Hultgren, I believe I didn't meet him until I got out to 221 for (inaudible)*. See, some of them guys didn't come out during construction, I think they come more or less when it was about ready to start up. WEISSKOPF: Right. BLACKBURN: I think he come from Chicago, too, I believe, if I remember. But I knew him well. WEISSKOPF: Well, let's maybe change gears for a minute. Let's jump to the end of construction. Did you leave 221 after it was completely finished? BLACKBURN: Practically finished. WEISSKOPF: You stuck with it most of the time? BLACKBURN: Yeah. Well, yeah, I worked till almost October. WEISSKOPF: Of '44? BLACKBURN: Yeah. And then my whole crew was laid off. In fact, we had that part all done, and then 24 was done, so that was my deal. So they talked about our whole crew was going to be laid off. Well, I decided maybe I'd go into operations. So I signed up for operations, but most of my men all went home. They went back to Illinois, and different places like that, where we come from. WEISSKOPF: Because there wasn't any work on the rest of the site, because it was getting finished up, too? BLACKBURN: They were finishing up on the other plant right down below that was supposed to do the same thing the T Plant did. It never did. WEISSKOPF: That was U Plant, I guess. BLACKBURN: U Plant. But they never did. They never operated that. Later on, they used that for uranium. WEISSKOPF: The recycling. BLACKBURN: On T Plant, wasn't made for uranium at all. All we did is (inaudible)*, put it in the tanks, wash it with different chemicals, and then let it settle. And the uranium went down and plutonium come up. Then we sucked the plutonium off and moved it on and set the uranium through a big tank. So we did that. We just did that after several, and each time we had the plutonium down to smaller, smaller, and smaller. And then we sent it across to 224. And there they made it smaller and cleaner, and smaller and cleaner. And each batch ended up, oh, probably three gallons or three and a half gallons, and we put them in five gallon stainless steel. I forget what we call them now. And that's the way we transferred in the 231 Building, put them in big deals. WEISSKOPF: So, in October of '44 the construction was winding down, and that's when they sent you to the 300 area? BLACKBURN: That's when I hired out for operations, I went through all the dope. And I had my clearances and everything anyway, but everybody went through 300 area while they rechecked your clearances and everything. Even though I had clearances for practically everything in construction, they still needed more clearances about your life, and all this and that. So they sent you to 300 area for a week or so. The first couple of days you didn't even get in where the slugs were, you waited till they okayed you. WEISSKOPF: When you went from construction into operations, what did you think you were going into? BLACKBURN: When I got into there, I still didn't know what the slugs was for, but I knew where they were going, I knew they were going to the reactors. WEISSKOPF: Did you know they were reactors, or you just knew they were plants? BLACKBURN: I think they called them plants or something at that time. But we took the uranium and made slugs about 8 inches long, about an inch and a quarter through, and had them up to 14, 15 hundred degrees, and then we'd shove them up there for just so long, we had clocks. And then when that was ready, we transferred them over into the aluminum. The aluminum was terribly hot, too. And we had these shields, aluminum shields, a little bit longer than the slug was, and that was in this stuff. We pushed that thing down in there, and then we had a cap that we capped it off with, and brought it out, cooled it all down, and then welded the cap with a welder. WEISSKOPF: How many slugs at a time would you be dealing with? At any given hour, how many slugs went through your hands? BLACKBURN: We put, on a shift, on a shift, see, I think that we were running two or three hundred on a shift, if I remember right. Each shift kept track of what they were doing. WEISSKOPF: A shift being maybe eight, nine, ten hours? BLACKBURN: Eight hours. Eight-hour shifts. Yeah. And three shifts around the clock. And then we put them all in carriers, and that's the way they were sent to the reactors. WEISSKOPF: So in October of '44 the first reactor had already started up? BLACKBURN: Oh, yeah. WEISSKOPF: Okay. So your slugs were needed very much, to keep it going. BLACKBURN: We were still making the full-length slug with the new pipes. You know the pipes afterwards got messed up in the reactors. Then they started making small --- I didn't, not while I was there, but afterwards they had to make these slugs smaller so they could get around the... WEISSKOPF: The graphite in the reactors was expanding? BLACKBURN: Yeah. I was about a month in 300 area, and I was picked to go to 231 because they were just getting some material to 231, plutonium. And I was picked as chief operator, and I was the first chief operator in 321 Building. WEISSKOPF: The 331? BLACKBURN: 331 Building. WEISSKOPF: Wait, 231. BLACKBURN: 231. WEISSKOPF: Yeah. BLACKBURN: And I... WEISSKOPF: And that was to go in from the 221 Building, the big building, to the 224 --- BLACKBURN: To 231. WEISSKOPF: And from 221 to 224 was piped over? BLACKBURN: Yes. We pumped it. WEISSKOPF: And how did you get it to the 231? BLACKBURN: With trucks. WEISSKOPF: You put it in a container and carried it over. BLACKBURN: We contained it, and then it went with the trucks. And so then I went down there, and we had two cells down there, and I was chief on both and had about three operators in each cell. And everything was into last deal, cells down there, you know. We put it in, and drop it, pick it up, drop it, clean it, and... WEISSKOPF: So you didn't have to be a chemist to do the job, you had to be able to follow the procedure. BLACKBURN: We had chemists, too, in the building. WEISSKOPF: So, in a sense, you were like a foreman --- BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: --- managing --- BLACKBURN: I was the foreman. WEISSKOPF: --- the actual process. BLACKBURN: That's right. I think the chief is supposed to be foreman. He takes care of the help, and then we had the manager of 231, and he had a supervisor, too. Anyway, I was transferred to 231 and run both areas then. And I think, and I won't bet on this, but I think I loaded out the first plutonium to the Army. WEISSKOPF: Really. BLACKBURN: And they come and backed up their truck to the back door, and I opened the door and looked out here, and here's rifles sticking in the air all around. And we loaded them on these pineapples. And I was going to tell you about the pineapple. That was the last thing that we --- we have this three and a half gallon stuff worked down to so many deals, put it in the pineapple and cooked it. We cooked so much, so many deals off from that, and then that left practically a gel in the pineapple, and that's the way we shipped it. WEISSKOPF: Did you know you had to be cautious with it? BLACKBURN: We had to be exact on the amounts. We thought, anyway. We had to be exact on the amount of the liquid that we took off that deal, because we had to weigh that, and weighed every piece. WEISSKOPF: Did the word criticality come up at that point? BLACKBURN: Oh, I'm sure it did, because everything had to be just on the seconds. And when we boiled it down, why, we had to be very careful, just exactly the amount that we took off, the liquid. And we had to weigh everything and make papers out of everything. WEISSKOPF: Was that first shipment the equivalent plutonium from the first batch of uranium that went through? BLACKBURN: I think it was. I think it was. And --- WEISSKOPF: It wasn't a combination of four or five batches, or part of a batch? BLACKBURN: Oh. Oh, yes, it was more than one batch. See, every one of these deals that we brought down from 224 turned out to be one pineapple. And I think the first shipment, I'm just kind of guessing now, we loaded up 20 pineapples. About 20 pineapples. And we understood, I'm not sure they did, we understood that that Army took that truck and went all the way down to New Mexico. But afterwards we loaded it and they put it in flatcars. WEISSKOPF: Trains? BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: Oh, okay. Once the system got going? BLACKBURN: The Army went right in the train and stayed locked in there. WEISSKOPF: And that was probably in the spring of '45 you were doing that? BLACKBURN: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it was either early November or the latter part of October that I went to 300 area. WEISSKOPF: Right. BLACKBURN: And then I was there about a month, maybe a month, when I was made a chief in the sense of 231. WEISSKOPF: You think that was already in '45 when you went there? BLACKBURN: It was probably December. I'd say probably --- could have been December. Some of these dates are a little bit funny. But, anyway, I was at 231 Building for about two and a half, three years. And we got a new manager in, and he stayed there about six months, and he knew that I was the carpenter foreman up in 221, and he was trying to get as much experience as he could. So he was all done with 231, and he wanted to know if I'd go up to 221 with him. And I said "Hell, yes. I know that building pretty well." He said "That's just why I want you to go along." So I was put on a shift up there as chief. WEISSKOPF: What was your title? BLACKBURN: Chief. And I was up there, I would guess, six, seven years. Maybe even more than that. I can't remember just how long. I stayed on one shift all the time. And he was the manager up there. WEISSKOPF: Who was that? If it comes to you. BLACKBURN: I can't remember his --- anyway, he replaced the manager at 231, because he was that guy's manager when he went to the Navy. And when he come out of the Navy, he come right back to that building and replaced the manager there. And then he was trying to get information on the whole thing, because he moved back to Chicago afterwards. He was a very nice fellow. He was a Navy --- I forget what he told me he was. He was way up, something pretty good in the Navy. WEISSKOPF: One of the important moments at Hanford was in August of '45 when they finally dropped the bomb and it made the newspapers. Why don't you describe where you were working then, and how it affected you and your job. BLACKBURN: I was still at 231 when they dropped the bomb. Of course, I think the general bunch of us pretty well knew what was going on there. But we didn't dare tell our families, or anything like that. WEISSKOPF: But you didn't know if it would work, though, either. BLACKBURN: No. I don't think they did until they set off the deals there in... WEISSKOPF: In New Mexico. BLACKBURN: New Mexico. WEISSKOPF: So as I understood it, the news came out and immediately everybody told you that Hanford was involved with it? BLACKBURN: Oh, sure, right away. We knew right away when it exploded. And then, of course, the papers was full of stuff, and things like that. In the hospital, at Kadlec Hospital, they got a lot of stuff along the walls up there. That's the new hospital, that ain't the old hospital but the new one. They've got a lot of good stuff for guys like me that wander through there and read it, and things like that. That was good. WEISSKOPF: So did it change the nature of your job, once everybody knew what you were all involved with? BLACKBURN: Well, the only thing was from then on there was a little more hurried. They knew what we was doing, and we could hustle it up a little bit more. And I worked in T Plant then, until PUREX was just about --- WEISSKOPF: REDOX or PUREX? BLACKBURN: PUREX. When PUREX was just about ready to start putting tanks in, then I was transferred over there. And soon after I got over there, I was a specialist. I was made a specialist at that (inaudible)*. WEISSKOPF: How did REDOX fit in between? BLACKBURN: There was a gang down there, and to tell you the truth I know very little about what they were doing. We knew some of the guys that worked there, but --- WEISSKOPF: T Plant was still going while REDOX was going? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: They kept you both going? BLACKBURN: Yeah. How they handled their work down there, I don't know. But I knew a lot of the operators, some of them that went and transferred down there, some of them that worked with me in 231, and stuff like that. WEISSKOPF: Do you think you could describe a typical day at T Plant during operations? BLACKBURN: Yes. WEISSKOPF: If you knew a batch was coming in on the train at 8:00 a.m., how would your day revolve around, before, during and after that? BLACKBURN: Well, the crane operator would take the slugs and put in the dissolvers. WEISSKOPF: And let's say if that happened at 8:00, how long before that would you be ramping up for? BLACKBURN: Oh, that particular metal probably wouldn't for the next day, maybe two days. When they got a batch ready, they had tanks to put that in. And we took it as we could take it, in batches, which is how we moved it into the tanks. We didn't exactly take it right off the dissolvers. The dissolvers went into another tank. The first thing they had to do was take the aluminum covers off. WEISSKOPF: Okay. Well, let's go back to the crane operator then and his job. At 8:00 the cask car is down there, and he's starting to put it into the dissolver? BLACKBURN: Yeah, in the dissolvers. WEISSKOPF: Okay. And what are you doing while that's happening? BLACKBURN: Well, we're going on with the other material. WEISSKOPF: Because there's processes happening farther down the line? BLACKBURN: Oh, yeah. We were going all the time. WEISSKOPF: How many different batches might there be in the building at any one time? You know, from beginning to end? BLACKBURN: Oh, I could say four, five. At least. WEISSKOPF: Interesting. BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: And the idea being, you only deal with one batch at a time, but once one is started and moved down the line, you could start another one. BLACKBURN: Another one right behind it. See, I had so many operators and so many utility operators. I had an operator on each of the boards, what we called a board. And any movement from one board to --- one tank to another, I had to go unlock. And we were all locked up there. And that was the old-time, I forget what we called them. Anyway, the steam went to them for jetting, and then the air blowed them out to cool them off, and then we locked them up again. So I had a lot of walking. WEISSKOPF: Because it's 800 feet long. Was there a, quote, gauge board for every section down the way? BLACKBURN: Yes. WEISSKOPF: For every two cells? BLACKBURN: I think it was about two cells, because the operator could move from one tank to another. We did a lot of settling work, so the plutonium come up and uranium went down. And then you washed them both, and then of course uranium was --- it was wasted for us at that time, and the plutonium was what was really after there. It was very simple. WEISSKOPF: Were you the top of the heap, then, when operations were going on? Were you the one who had the final say about how the process went? Not chemically, maybe, but just as far as --- BLACKBURN: No, I had a supervisor. Only he sat in the office most of the time. Of course, he would talk to the operators, and things like that. But I did all the running, had the keys, and had to write a book at the end of a shift, and everything like that. WEISSKOPF: The log sheets that I've seen that people would fill out that have the steps listed, and the numbers. BLACKBURN: Yeah, we always had a log. WEISSKOPF: Was the person standing at the gauge board filling that out? BLACKBURN: No, that was me. WEISSKOPF: Okay. But if you had a board --- BLACKBURN: Each area where they had, they had a book that told them just how long to settle, just how much chemical to put in there, and what chemicals to put in. And then the operator had to put in that he did this, and he did that, and he did this, did that. That's the way we run that. WEISSKOPF: And would there be a sheet, then, at every gauge, every panel? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. It was a book. Actually, it was a book, really. It was, oh, like you see in schools, several pages inside of a book that opened up. WEISSKOPF: Was it difficult keeping track of multiple batches in the building? You might be dissolving one at one end, and --- BLACKBURN: Seems like we had a deal in the office that as it moved along, we moved this thing in the office showing exactly what position we were in all the time. WEISSKOPF: What was your title as you were doing that? BLACKBURN: Chief. WEISSKOPF: Chief operator? BLACKBURN: Chief in T Plant. WEISSKOPF: Of one shift? BLACKBURN: Of one shift, yeah. We had four chiefs. WEISSKOPF: And when the shift changed, you and all the people under you would move out and other guys would move in? BLACKBURN: Went home, yeah. WEISSKOPF: And you would have to tell them where you were in the process? BLACKBURN: Well, yes, we always talked to the other chief when he come in. They always come in about 20 minutes to talk. And he could read what you had put down in the book. And if he had any questions to ask you, well, okay. And before we'd have to run out to get the bus to go to town. WEISSKOPF: Could you describe what --- the gallery where the gauges were was the operating gallery? What do you guys refer to it as? BLACKBURN: How big it was? WEISSKOPF: Well, just what it was like working in there. For example, how many guys would there be all the way down the length of the building while you were processing? BLACKBURN: Oh, we'd have about nine or ten operators, and we'd have two guys that was taking samples, and that would be twelve. WEISSKOPF: Somebody in the crane? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes, we had the crane operator. WEISSKOPF: Was he under your supervision, too? BLACKBURN: No, not necessarily. He was actually, at that time, when I was a chief, him and I was level as far as that goes. Once in a great while I'd go up there during a shift, fool around with the deal, and he'd laugh about it naturally. Them guys was good. WEISSKOPF: You'd look through the periscopes and try to see what it was about? BLACKBURN: Yeah, I hooked on a couple of times. WEISSKOPF: Was it easy? BLACKBURN: No. Not for me. Seemed like it was for them. WEISSKOPF: Do you remember there being a little television screen in the crane cabin? BLACKBURN: Well, everything was done with television. He couldn't see anything. WEISSKOPF: Well, they had periscopes, too. BLACKBURN: Periscopes. WEISSKOPF: But what about television? BLACKBURN: Didn't have television. WEISSKOPF: Okay. Because I read --- and since you were there during construction, there's a couple of pages of descriptions of how DuPont went to RCA and ordered a closed circuit television system that they installed in the cranes in all the separations buildings, and nobody I know remembers seeing them. BLACKBURN: I don't remember seeing them. I never knew there was such a thing as a television. WEISSKOPF: It would have stood out, had you seen it, right? BLACKBURN: Oh, I'm sure it would. WEISSKOPF: Okay. I don't know what happened to it, but DuPont paid for it, and they sort of implied they installed it. That's funny. Okay. So you had nine or ten operators --- BLACKBURN: Well, I had about ten operators. WEISSKOPF: A couple of samplers. BLACKBURN: Two. They were operators. One of them had to be an operator. And then we had people making up chemicals. One operator and probably two utility operators. And then --- WEISSKOPF: Where would they be? BLACKBURN: They were up... WEISSKOPF: The same place? BLACKBURN: No. They were on the same side that the offices were. And we had big tanks back there with all the different kinds of chemicals. Everything. We had nitric all the way from 60% down to 2%, I think it was. And then we had I think about two or else three operators in 224, and a couple of utilities there, too. WEISSKOPF: Were they under your supervision? BLACKBURN: Yes. WEISSKOPF: In the 224 Building as well? BLACKBURN: 224 and 21. It was handled just like --- my same supervisor was supervisor to the 24. WEISSKOPF: Well, how did you --- if you were unlocking and physically having to be in the 221 Building --- BLACKBURN: Didn't have much of that unlocking over there. A couple times a night I went over there and checked out everything that was going on. WEISSKOPF: Do you remember the process of sampling and how often that happened? How important was it? BLACKBURN: Well, real important. The sampling was real important. The samplers, I remember one time when I and Hultgren went in the canyon and took a sample by ourself. Filled up a pot in order to send it. I think we sent that to New Mexico, too, I believe. WEISSKOPF: For special analysis? BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: And why did you guys do it versus the normal samplers? BLACKBURN: Because we did it sort of out of --- we didn't do it with any RM* or anything. WEISSKOPF: Oh. You sort of snuck in. BLACKBURN: We did things once in a while that wasn't supposed to be done, probably, but we did it. WEISSKOPF: If that was more or less typical, what did you do before you went into the canyon? BLACKBURN: We all had to change clothes to go into the canyon. WEISSKOPF: Wearing air masks then? BLACKBURN: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: Going back to a typical sampler, were there times that you always took samples at certain points of the process? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: So they would know when it was coming up. BLACKBURN: They would know. Well, you could talk to them. See, a lot of times they sat by the phone on the outside of the building there, or in the hallways, things like that. WEISSKOPF: On the canyon side? BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: Suited up, ready to go in? BLACKBURN: Oh, they were suited all the time for eight hours. WEISSKOPF: Oh. BLACKBURN: Because you never know, every time we got word from the other people of what was going on, why, then we could either move material or do some more washing in the same place. WEISSKOPF: So how many times in one batch would the samplers need to go in, do you think, and take a sample? BLACKBURN: Well, they would practically sample it in each tank. WEISSKOPF: Oh, really. BLACKBURN: I think each tank was sampled, if I remember right. WEISSKOPF: So it would be many times. BLACKBURN: Oh, yes, they took quite a few samples. WEISSKOPF: So a batch took about 24 hours to go through, maybe less? BLACKBURN: Oh, more than that. WEISSKOPF: More than that? BLACKBURN: More than that. I would say one batch would take more than 24 hours to go through. WEISSKOPF: If it started Monday morning, it would be done sometime Tuesday? BLACKBURN: Probably Tuesday. WEISSKOPF: Okay. And in between they'd be taking a dozen samples? BLACKBURN: I'm sure they would. I'm sure they would. They would sample every tank. And if something went wrong with the sample, why, we'd have to resample, like that, you know. WEISSKOPF: And I presume there must have been some pressure on everybody, if you're having to resample? BLACKBURN: Everybody, yeah. They used to hang out, the samplers used to hang out where they run the analysis and stuff, things like that. They didn't have (inaudible)* in the canyon, or anything like that. WEISSKOPF: Would they have to undress, take off their overalls before they went in? BLACKBURN: They had to take off one pair. WEISSKOPF: One pair. BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: But they kept the other pair on? BLACKBURN: See, they generally had two pairs. WEISSKOPF: So could you describe what it was like? When they knew they had to get a sample, what did they do before they entered the canyon and on in? BLACKBURN: Well, they had to --- we had to call them, and they would pick up their samplers at the lab and go in and take the sample and take it back to the lab. WEISSKOPF: How long would that take, do you think, between when they were notified to when they returned to the lab? BLACKBURN: Oh, probably 15 minutes, 20 minutes sometimes. WEISSKOPF: Was there ever a time when you sampled, and you resampled and realized that something was drastically gone wrong with the batch? BLACKBURN: I don't remember much of that. WEISSKOPF: Did you ever have to dump a batch because something had gone wrong? BLACKBURN: Well, we had to rework a batch. WEISSKOPF: You wouldn't dump it in the waste tanks and be done with it. BLACKBURN: No. WEISSKOPF: You'd always send it back. BLACKBURN: Send it back. You wouldn't want to throw away that plutonium. WEISSKOPF: No. Did you get a lot of pressure when something like that would happen? BLACKBURN: Well, what it did is held back everything behind it. WEISSKOPF: And what other kind of ancillary jobs were there? We mentioned people at the gauges, people mixing chemicals, people sampling. People in the laboratories? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: Were they also part of your shift? BLACKBURN: No. I didn't --- well, they were the shift, same shift, but they had their own supervision. WEISSKOPF: So your people would take them samples, and they would give you numbers to enter into your logbook? BLACKBURN: Had to come back to our office, our numbers. WEISSKOPF: Okay. And those numbers had to be within a certain range? BLACKBURN: Right. WEISSKOPF: Did you have much leeway with those kinds of things? BLACKBURN: I don't think so. WEISSKOPF: It was all pretty much laid out. BLACKBURN: Yeah. The only chemicals were all run through the labs, too, you know. The chemicals, they made chemicals upstairs in our buildings, and they would do it, each one was made up when you put the chemicals together with the book. And then they'd take a sample of that and send you to the lab. WEISSKOPF: Would they make a whole bunch at one time and keep it in a tank, then have it for many batches? BLACKBURN: Yeah, we had batches. WEISSKOPF: So if you needed nitric acid at a certain level, they would make up a big batch, test it --- BLACKBURN: Big batch, and we'd take just what we needed out of it. But there was so much waste at T Plant. That's why we got the PUREX. WEISSKOPF: And when you say waste, you mean in any given batch. BLACKBURN: The stuff to fill down, to fill the tanks down in the tank farms. I don't know for sure exactly, but I think that PUREX, our waste was about 10% of what T Plant. I'm just guessing that. WEISSKOPF: Well, they weren't getting rid of any of the uranium, right? BLACKBURN: And PUREX we wanted uranium and we wanted plutonium, both. So that wasn't waste. Our uranium went out into a tank, and then we loaded trucks, sent it to U Plant. WEISSKOPF: And at T Plant everything except the plutonium was returned to the waste tanks. BLACKBURN: To the waste tanks, right. WEISSKOPF: Was there a lot of effort to conserve chemicals and to lower the waste as much as possible? Was there much you could do about that? BLACKBURN: You couldn't do that. WEISSKOPF: The process was fixed. BLACKBURN: We went by what they give us to process, yeah. We didn't see much of the big-shots from Chicago until 231. They come out there an awful lot. WEISSKOPF: Really. BLACKBURN: And then we'd have to clean up behind. They'd mess up our room pretty bad. WEISSKOPF: Were they trying to just improve that last step of the process? BLACKBURN: That's right. They were --- well, experimenting; let's say it that way. And they all had different names. They didn't have their regular names when they come. WEISSKOPF: Fermi went under the name of Farmer, I believe. BLACKBURN: Yeah. I don't know, they had all kinds of names that they come out there with. They were very smart. They knew what they were doing. We took their word for it, everything. But we had a lot of cleanup work to do after they left every time. WEISSKOPF: They weren't quite so careful, huh? BLACKBURN: No, not as we had to be. We had to be. And when we shipped everything, everything had to be checked out completely, you know. WEISSKOPF: Let me ask you about the crane operator again, since that was such a key job. BLACKBURN: It was. WEISSKOPF: If you had a problem with some of the piping, say, that had to be replaced or adjusted, how long would it take, once you gave him the command of what needed to be done, how long did it take him to move up and down, take off the cell block covers... BLACKBURN: Oh, we're talking probably an hour, half an hour. WEISSKOPF: To at least get the process started? BLACKBURN: Yeah. He would have to take off the deal. We had some regular cells in the east end of the building, or he'd have to take the deal and then pick up a new one there, bring it in on the flatbeds and stuff like that and take it up. I'd say probably somewheres near an hour, probably. WEISSKOPF: So the pressure was on him, though, right? BLACKBURN: They were pretty good. WEISSKOPF: And what would you do with the equipment you took out, if it was hot? BLACKBURN: Then it went into cells and stayed there. WEISSKOPF: For how long? BLACKBURN: Months. WEISSKOPF: The cells were big enough to hold that kind of thing? BLACKBURN: Oh, you could pile a lot of used stuff in the cells. WEISSKOPF: Do you remember any of it ever being taken out and dealt with? BLACKBURN: Yes. WEISSKOPF: Would they take it out on the train car that brought in the fuel? BLACKBURN: No, no. They brought in flatcars. WEISSKOPF: Into the tunnel? BLACKBURN: Yeah. And we cocooned a lot of stuff before it went to burial. But for a long time all T Plant was operated and things like that, we didn't do any of that. We did more of it afterwards. WEISSKOPF: Because in the early days, I guess, there was pressures to produce, and worry about the details later on. BLACKBURN: That's right. Yeah. *[Start of side A of 2nd tape, not as clear. Echoes. You might want to listen to your tape from this point.]* WEISSKOPF: Describe again, then, about the dissolver. You said you didn't have to empty it between batches? BLACKBURN: Never did. You always leave a bunch. WEISSKOPF: I've heard the word heel* used. Does that ring a bell? Where they would leave something in there. BLACKBURN: Yeah, we always left something. WEISSKOPF: What was the idea of leaving something in there, instead of just finishing one whole batch and emptying it out? BLACKBURN: I don't know why that was. But you always left --- there was always some slugs in there. WEISSKOPF: The first dissolving was to get the aluminum off. BLACKBURN: That's the first thing you did, yeah. WEISSKOPF: And that was like a sodium hydroxide? BLACKBURN: Seemed like we used --- WEISSKOPF: It was like lye almost? BLACKBURN: I thought we used sulfuric. I'm not sure. WEISSKOPF: And would you leave it in the same dissolver for the next step? BLACKBURN: No, no. You jetted that off to the waste. We had to get that out. WEISSKOPF: And what was left was more or less bare aluminum slugs? BLACKBURN: Uranium slugs. Almost the same as we were running in the 300 area. WEISSKOPF: Did you wash them in water or anything in between? BLACKBURN: No. As far as I know, we just took this --- I think we used 60% acid to dissolve it. WEISSKOPF: And once it was dissolved, then you had material to work with. BLACKBURN: Yeah. It never dissolved them all, it just dissolved the top, you might say, and that's what we jetted, jetted out into holding tanks. WEISSKOPF: Could you explain how those jets worked? They weren't pumps, right? BLACKBURN: In some places we used pumps, but most of the places a jet, you had a suction line, and you got a jet here with a certain deal, and you run the steam through that. And when that steam runs through that, it sucks your material right with it. WEISSKOPF: Did it add steam to the material? BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: Okay. BLACKBURN: Oh, yes. WEISSKOPF: So you had to factor that in? BLACKBURN: You had to factor that in, because that was part of your (inaudible)* afterwards. The more steam you used, the more liquid you come up with. WEISSKOPF: How effective was that as a pump? Did it work pretty well? BLACKBURN: Jet is wonderful. Jet is wonderful. WEISSKOPF: No moving parts? BLACKBURN: It just sits right there and you run the steam through your deal. WEISSKOPF: Basically, you could only, I guess, pump so high, because you were working on a vacuum principle, you're sucking it out? BLACKBURN: Just sucking it right out. WEISSKOPF: Okay. Another issue was the dissolvers was where the really dangerous gases were let off. That was sort of the most toxic part of the process? BLACKBURN: Probably. WEISSKOPF: And they ran the exhaust directly out from there to the stack? BLACKBURN: Went to a stack. Of course, all the cells were all made to... WEISSKOPF: I was under the impression that the dissolvers had their own special jet pipes. BLACKBURN: They could have. They could have. WEISSKOPF: Were you also watching what was coming out of the stack during dissolving? BLACKBURN: Sometimes. WEISSKOPF: Was that your job, or was it somebody else? BLACKBURN: That's not my job, no. We had people that worked in maintenance that were supposed to watch some of that kind of stuff. WEISSKOPF: How about the weather report before you were allowed to dissolve? BLACKBURN: Right. WEISSKOPF: How did that come to you? When you knew there was going to be a batch coming in... BLACKBURN: They had their own weather station at Hanford. Every night they sent up a balloon, stuff like that, to get directions and things like that. And we got all our deal right from the... WEISSKOPF: Well, what would you do if they said the weather was going to be bad for two days? BLACKBURN: We didn't do it. WEISSKOPF: What did you do? BLACKBURN: We just didn't. We could move material. WEISSKOPF: The processes were still going. BLACKBURN: We couldn't dissolve. WEISSKOPF: Okay. Was there ever like a 10-day period when you weren't allowed to dissolve? BLACKBURN: I don't remember anything quite that long that I can remember. But there was a lot of days that you couldn't dissolve. WEISSKOPF: But it didn't mean you sat around drinking coffee. BLACKBURN: No, no. We still operated the rest of the building. WEISSKOPF: And you never had to wait so long that the building had no processes going on? BLACKBURN: No. There were some times when we used to flush tanks, clean the tank out completely and bring the metal in. So we didn't dissolve every day. WEISSKOPF: Did the crane operator do a lot of inspections to see that things were okay? How would you know that things weren't leaking, or rusting out, or... BLACKBURN: We had things in our sumps and had a deal showing --- if we had a leak in a cell, a sump told us that we had it. He didn't have to worry about that till we told him. WEISSKOPF: One cell, the supercell* that was real deep, or the collection of cells that was like (inaudible)* deeper than the rest. BLACKBURN: That was a big cell anyway, because there was a lot of stuff put in that. WEISSKOPF: And where would the stuff come from that went into that? BLACKBURN: From the rest of the building. WEISSKOPF: It wasn't from the tanks, it was from spills and things like that? BLACKBURN: It was what we called connectors. It was connectors for stuff that we was transferring from one cell, from one tank to another, and from another cell into that. And if we got a leak, we stopped it immediately when we got a signal. And then the crane operator went and inspected it. (Inaudible)* WEISSKOPF: Where the connector met the well* of the cell, that joint might leak. BLACKBURN: Right. WEISSKOPF: And liquid would go down onto the cell floor. BLACKBURN: Right down into the sump, see. WEISSKOPF: And a drain that went all the way down. BLACKBURN: We always had sumps in there. WEISSKOPF: Was there a drain from that sump down to that supercell*? BLACKBURN: I believe that we were able to jet a sump out of there into a tank. WEISSKOPF: Your discretion? BLACKBURN: Yeah. Yeah. That's the only way we did it. WEISSKOPF: The normal waste, the uranium waste, was sent out in a pipe. BLACKBURN: All the way out, and just went right down to the --- WEISSKOPF: Only if that pipe leaked would anything end up in the cell itself. The cells were to remain dry at all times if possible. BLACKBURN: Supposedly, yeah. WEISSKOPF: And did you hose down the cell if there was a leak? BLACKBURN: They were hosed. They were hosed. WEISSKOPF: Did guys do it or did the crane operator do it? BLACKBURN: If I remember right, the crane operator did it. WEISSKOPF: Would go hose out the cell? BLACKBURN: Yeah. See, at that time we couldn't fool around regasketing anything. Didn't know how, I guess, to regasket. When we got to PUREX, we were able to regasket a lot of stuff. I don't know why, but the guys could do it. WEISSKOPF: I could see either way, because taking off the gasket and putting one on doesn't sound difficult, but it depends, I guess. BLACKBURN: It depends. At T Plant we didn't think you could do that. WEISSKOPF: Do you remember near the end of construction at T Plant when they had to go through and replace a lot of gaskets before the plant started up? BLACKBURN: I'm sure they did that. WEISSKOPF: Supposedly they were using Teflon gaskets. BLACKBURN: The wrong gaskets or something. WEISSKOPF: And when the impact wrench tightened them down, it was too much for them. BLACKBURN: Yeah. WEISSKOPF: So they went to a different kind of gasket. BLACKBURN: I heard about that. I didn't see any of it. (End of interview) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:41:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gardner Clark "G.C." Blackburn Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Gardner Clark "G.C." Blackburn conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. Blackburn was a carpentry foreman in the 200 West area. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/17/1999 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D_4B https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2ec3238c3bc573350fa2b4c2ae60639e.MP3 a8ab0541ed6f323b26fe0e8436530321 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Kenneth "Mac" MacReady Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Weisskopf: This is the BRMA interview with Mac MacCready at his home in Kennewick, Washington, November 19, 1999. MacCready: ...As a consequence, my recovery period, I still was bedridden for quite a while, and so books were something that my mother could give me. Little books in those days, of course. But that got me interested in it. And we had a library that had a children’s area for kids up to 12, and when I was up and around again I went down there and so on, and I continued to do that when I got beyond that in the library. And I got a book, interestingly enough, because it is significant, I don’t remember its name or the author’s name now. But I got a book which talked about the field of chemistry, and a major degree of its presentation of the thing short biographies of some significant people in chemistry, and particularly those in the 1800s, and it was quite fascinating. Weisskopf: Was it written for kids? MacCready: Hmm? Weisskopf: It was sort of written for kids? MacCready: No, it wasn’t. This was --- I was about 13 when I came across this, 13 or 14, so it was an upstairs book. But at any rate, it stimulated my interest. So I read some more stuff, and of course it was only a couple years later that I was able to take chemistry in high school. And it happened so that the teacher we had was a guy who had been a professional out working for some of the processors of lead and zinc. There were a lot of mines of that sort in southwest Missouri then. And this, see, was --- well, the mining and milling was moving away from Joplin as they started getting stuff farther away. So this guy had lost his job, and he had hooked on to the high school as a teacher. So, to my mind at least, as I look back on it, he was probably better fitted to teach me well and to keep my interest at a high level. Weisskopf: Because he had real-world experience? MacCready: Yeah. Yeah. So at any rate, I took the course, and had fun with it, and enjoyed it, and obviously talked with him about it beyond the class. And so as a consequence, then, in my senior year of high school, he let me use the high school laboratory when it was not actually being used for his classes. What I really did, he gave his books, and I did what was the normal lab work for beginning chemistry in college. I got that all done in high school. So it was that --- I had the interest, then I got an opportunity to do some of the things and to learn more and found it still very interesting. So that was it. When I went to the university, at the time, as far as I know, there were two universities in the United States that had specifically set aside chemistry departments with their own names and such like. One of them was Penn State and the other was the University of Alabama. And it happened so that in the normal events of my personal life that I wound up in Alabama’s area, went over and looked at the university in the summer and liked the looks, so that was where I entered school. I didn’t know this, but it was about the infrequency of having separate university entities that were significantly dedicated to chemistry, but I learned that later. So I had a good university and I had a good faculty. And it was, as you might imagine, it was not --- the university had a total population of about 5,000, 5500 then, and as you might imagine, our chemistry department was relatively small. Of course, it didn’t do chemistry work for a whole lot of other than its own people in the general chemistry field, but we had about 120 people that were in there. Weisskopf: As chem majors? MacCready: Well, yeah, we were enrolled in the School of Chemistry, Metallurgy and Ceramics. Weisskopf: That was the formal name of it? MacCready: Yes. Weisskopf: School of Chemistry, Metallurgy... MacCready: And Ceramics. And after the first two years, your focus split. One way, you went to more advanced chemistry the last two years, and if you went the other way, you went into more in-depth education in metallurgy and ceramics. Of course, I went the one way. But with those kinds of associations, see, we had our building, so we saw our professors at times other than just in class, around the halls and such like. In the libraries and so on. So we had a whole lot more attention than you would normally have and that people do now, and it was an excellent education. And it also happened so that it kind of was the avenue which gave me my job, my opportunity to have a job with DuPont. Weisskopf: What year did you --- you graduated with a degree in chemistry, then? MacCready: I graduated in 1934 with a BS. I stayed on another year and got a master’s degree. I was not feeling the essentiality of having another year at the university, but in the middle part of my senior year I came upon a lady. And since that was, what, four months perhaps until the semester was over and I was graduating, if I was going to eat I had to do something, but I would like to do something that would make it possible to continue to see her. So I talked with the dean about the fact that I would like to stay on and get a master’s degree, but money problems would be noticeable, was there anything he could do about it. And he came up with something. He put together a job for me that would give me about half of the necessary money to go through, and I had to fund. Then in the summertime before I really started on that job. I was there, and I started my master’s work immediately after the spring term was over. And so during that period I did all the business of cleaning up the labs, stocking up and --- Weisskopf: That was the job they were paying you for? MacCready: That was the job that I wound up doing, was being the guy in charge of all the equipment storage and the material storage and getting it around to the laboratories, and such like. The summer, the last three or four weeks, I did nothing for a 12- or 14-hour day except wash laboratory equipment. I cleaned everything up and got it stacked back where it had to be for the start of the season. I got the --- I think I got 35 cents an hour then, and I made quite a lot of money even at that. So, at any rate, that was what happened. And then because of that, in all honesty, I got the master’s degree. Weisskopf: What was the thesis or the theme of your master’s? MacCready: We had a professor who had developed an electrolytic method of analysis for iron, steel, and that sort. All of the businesses were trying to get quantitative analyses of things involving iron or steel. None of them --- there were three or four different ones. There were two others particularly that were the most commonly in use, and they depended upon the business of a color change when you got to the end point. And it was, both of them, it was a pretty delicate change, and if the light was just about so, that --- so, at any rate, he felt that there was significant use for this. But in order to have an opportunity to present it in what he felt would be a controlling fashion, he needed to have a lot of work done in terms of doing the kinds of tests to determine quantities and such like that would normally be used using his system and develop a whole cadre of information as to how efficient it was versus these others, time and all that sort of stuff and so on. So that’s what I did, I ran that and the other thing and fiddled around with it. And it turned out to be very effective in terms of the ultimate, when I did my last test and such like, I of course demonstrated to them. And when you can see what you’ve got in the way of results in terms of the color changes versus this thing, which when it hit the thing a needle went off scale. So it was not a tremendous thing in terms of basic chemistry, it was really fundamentally largely a matter of development of instrumentation that was more useful (inaudible), and I was happy to do it. Weisskopf: Okay. And that took a year, then, at the college? MacCready: Yeah. It meant that I went through and graduated at the normal time in spring or early summer in 1935. And at the time that I graduated, I and a boy that was graduating as a senior, we were the only two from the graduating classes that immediately got a job. The dean had an outfit over in Mississippi that would take us on. Of course, now, this was 1935. Jobs weren’t easy to come by. So I went over and worked there for about two months. Then I learned --- well, my job was pretty straightforward, it was just ordinary chemical testing, really, (inaudible) to process. It was a place that made various kinds of wallboard, and I got to know about the processes, and I got to know about the people and so on. And they had about four or five different segments, each one of which had a supervisor who was in charge of (inaudible) set of equipment, and operators, and so on. And then besides that, then he got the top stairs where you had the manager and assistant manager. So I’d been there about two months. I’d gathered enough information to know something that I thought was significant. They had one guy who was the supervisor of the most difficult of processes, and he was the guy that everybody talked about. He was the guy that just had a phenomenol career, and he was only 27 or 28 years old, and he was making $120 a month. And nobody in history has ever moved so fast or got so much money. So I said huh-uh, there’s no future here. So I did the unspeakable for 1935: I quit. And in the meanwhile, of course, early in the time when I’d got over there, I’d gotten the stupendous application form from DuPont, which had been arranged by the dean, and I filled that out and sent it in, and so on. I proceeded to drive back over to my fiancee’s home to inform her and her parents that I’d quit. And my father-in-law to be understood, because he had done similar things himself. Actually, he had a pretty good in with a local chemistry company there in Anniston, Alabama. And I went down there and got an interview and did get assurance that I could have a job there. I think it was a day or two later that I got this thing in the mail from DuPont to come up for an interview on thus and so day, two or three days later. Weisskopf: How far? Were you going back to Wilmington? MacCready: The letter came from I think Wilmington, perhaps, or maybe it came from New Jersey, because what I was told was to come up and have --- they gave me all the physical explanations of how to get there, that I was going to be going into Wilmington, and from Wilmington I would cross the river to the dye works plant where I would have my interview. So I did that. As a consequence of that, before I left, I had the job. And also two very positive elements of appreciation for the company. One was that at the close of the thing, when I was to go on, leave, the guy I was interviewing with said “Just a few minutes. I’m having a check made out for you to cover your expenses coming up here and going back home.” I hadn’t thought of that. It helped. The other thing was that, remembering now my experience over in Mississippi, he informed me that I would start at $135 a month. Weisskopf: And what had you been making, do you think? MacCready: The job that I had over in Mississippi I was making $75 a month. And that guy that was the genius was making $120 a month. Here I was going to start my job at $15 better than him. Weisskopf: That’s great. MacCready: So that was fine. That set the stage for some very considerable activity. I got home, I got to the soon-to-be parents home, a week later, on a Sunday, my fiancée and I stood in front of her parents’ fireplace, and a minister, and we got married. Thirty minutes later we were on the train to Wilmington. Weisskopf: So you had a job and a wife and a new town? MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Both of you were new to Wilmington? MacCready: Oh, yeah. Of course, Wilmington was simply where you got to on the train. Then we had to get over into New Jersey and find a place to live. Weisskopf: Why New Jersey? MacCready: Because we were going to work at this dye works where I had been interviewed, and they were in New Jersey. Weisskopf: And how soon after did you start work? You got married on a Sunday, left on the train the next day? MacCready: Yeah. The combination of circumstances, got there, and me and (inaudible) went to work in about two weeks. We had two weeks to find a place to live and get some furniture to put in it, a few other odds and ends. So that was part of the deal. They didn’t give us any extra money for that, but they said that you can have a couple of weeks to kind of get yourself settled in somewhere before you report to work. Weisskopf: And that was then in 1935? MacCready: Yes. Weisskopf: About what time of year, do you think? MacCready: That was in, well, October, the fall. Weisskopf: Okay. Well, maybe we should fast forward a bit. How about this: At DuPont, did you spend more time in the lab or an office? MacCready: No. DuPont, the system that they had, I went in and I went to work in the laboratory that served --- they had Jackson Laboratory there where they did research. And for the people in Jackson Lab, the normal just basic information in the way of running tests and all such in their research, the run-of-the-mill analyses were done in this laboratory that I went to work in. There were about --- there was room for, and it was always one way or another filled up, there were about 30 of us that worked in that laboratory. And one, by the time a year had gone by, one knew that fundamentally they were getting something done that they needed. But this was really a test area. You learned things about the people and determined what they might want to direct them towards, anywhere from going over to the laboratory, their research laboratory, or whatever, whatever, or out the door. And pretty much, at the time I was there, at least, usually you would make a move in not more than a year. I had my interview after I had been there about eight months. And the fellow who ran the lab was more this kind of a person, an analytical person with respect to people than he was a full-time runner of the lab, which was pretty automatic anyway. He says “Well, what do you want to do?” And I said “Well, I always kind of have ideas for research work.” And he said “Well, there’s not anything of that nature that you can get into too logically and too significantly. And,” he said, “there’s some other things that we think you would fit into in our pattern of activities better. So would you accept our belief on that, at least to the extent of trying the job that we propose to give you?” “Sure.” So that resulted in my being given the supervision of a field laboratory. Most all of the individual major elements at the dye works, made this, that and the other, most of them had a field labs to get, you know, routine laboratory work done right on the spot. So I had four guys so that we could --- because since the plant ran 24 hours a day, we needed to cover them 24 hours a day. Four people. I accomplished that with one guy on .... (Tape ran out) MacCready: So I became a supervisor there. And after six months or so they had an idea, probably came out of the laboratory, that there was a way that they could maybe cut one stop out of the process by which they were making camphor. They needed to get some information about the possibilities of something that in effect was really using --- well, they didn’t know exactly what they would --- they thought that if they could get intimate association of a solvent and this stuff that was coming out of, let’s say, item B in their list of things, that it would permit them to go from B to D and X out C. So I had had a little experience in the university, and at their suggestion that I did know something about that, they got me the stuff that I put together one of these laboratory columns with little glass rings in it which gave you the opportunity to have the effect in a big plant, maybe a column 20 feet long, and I had a column this big around that was three feet along. At any rate, I ran through enough stuff there to get the indication that yes, there was a combination of times and exposures that ought to do the trick. I remember this particularly well, because as a consequence of that, they cobbled together the necessary equipment to, as best they knew how, translate my results into the plant results. And because I had done that, I had the information, you know, about some of the times and some of the indications that you can check on, and so on. So they were going to start a test run one afternoon at four o’clock, and they were going to run the thing 24 hours, and I was to be there all the 24 hours to check at critical points to see if what I thought should have happened in my lifetime was indeed happening, and so on and so on and so on. So we did it that way, and so we went through our 24 hours, and we came out with the fact that yes, it actually worked, did the trick. So that was kind of a nice thing. There was only one minor hitch about it. The four o’clock we started was four o’clock the day before Thanksgiving, so I got home Thanksgiving between four and five o’clock Thanksgiving evening. Weisskopf: A memorable one, then, right? MacCready: Yeah. But it worked beautifully. That was the only thing, other than the norm of running the system, thing that came along for me. After about a year, year and a half, they were getting on to --- they had started construction on another ethyl chloride plant. They had one. It happened so it was right next door to where my lab was, but I hadn’t spent any time over there. At any rate, I got transferred, along with an old veteran operator who was going to be the general foreman for the plant. And they sent us down there and said “Now, we want you to look after what’s going on in the construction, thinking always in terms of what you all will need best to serve you well in operating the thing.” So we of course learned our chemistry for this thing, and we learned what their plans were, and then we tried to visualize and help in this respect. And I don’t know how good a job we did, but it was the first time I was involved in that, and I certainly learned a lot out of it. A good bit of it, maybe, I learned that you don’t do it the way I had done it, you do it a different way next time. But it happened so that we had a little byproduct outfit we were going to build and run, and so we did the same thing for that. And then we had a --- we thought up and cobbled up a little affair so you can do some more recovery of what was otherwise waste. And then about then we put in a plant to process the sodium sulfate that we got as a byproduct. And if you fixed that up, got it down to sodium sulfate, you could sell that to the paper mill people. So we built that, and we followed that. And by that time, I’d been exposed pretty well to this business of looking at plants with the idea in mind that you’re going to have to operate them. Weisskopf: It sounds familiar to me for what comes later, the idea of taking laboratory experience and blowing it up into a large factory. MacCready: Right. Weisskopf: Interesting. MacCready: So, after that --- well, get a little quicker about it. The war period came along, and I got transferred up to the semiworks that they had put in place to learn some of the hows and whys of the processes to make the explosive that wound up ultimately, when it was made and put to use, being the one that they used so effectively in Europe to do --- well, literally, it was this stuff you could wrap a string of it around a railroad --- Weisskopf: Oh. Sometimes called plastique, or something like that? MacCready: Yeah, uh-huh. Weisskopf: Was there a technical term for it? MacCready: Oh, it had a technical name. Weisskopf: What did you call it at work, other than “the stuff”? MacCready: I don’t remember. Weisskopf: Was it primarily an explosive, but also the way it could be handled? MacCready: Yeah, that was it. It came out in about the consistency of dough. And one of the beautiful things was that literally you could cut a railroad piece in two now, just to cut the grill out a quarter of an inch wide. Well, that was one of the things that the French Underground folks used wonderfully well, tearing up railroads. Weisskopf: Okay. MacCready: They didn’t tear them up, they just fixed them up so that when the trains went over them, the track tore off. Weisskopf: So it did double duty, then, yeah. MacCready: Yeah. So I stayed there learning about that. And the way we learned, of course, we were running this little semiworks thing, and they were also starting work on the main plant. So the people were being transferred out, and I wound up being the guy who stayed there and finished shutting up the semiworks. Weisskopf: Can you describe, then, the difference between what semiworks was compared to the lab and compared to the ultimate plant that was built? MacCready: Okay. Weisskopf: It was producing a usable product, or was it not --- MacCready: Yes. Yes. Weisskopf: It was just shipping out a product? MacCready: Yeah. It was making the product, and it was, oh, it was putting out what I would say would be --- well, let’s say that if it operated a shift, it would put out about a tenth as much product as one line in the major plant. Weisskopf: One line? MacCready: One line, and in that plant I think we had six lines. Weisskopf: But it was nonetheless --- MacCready: Compared to what, you know, like what I was doing in the laboratory, that would have been maybe 1% of what it would have. Weisskopf: How long do you think that semiworks operated? MacCready: I think it operated just about a year. I was there about six or seven months. Weisskopf: So they must have been building the factory --- MacCready: They started, yeah. Weisskopf: --- during that year. MacCready: That’s right. When I got there, I was there in time to have some association with, say, the last quarter of the construction of the place. And I did some of the same kind of thing with them. And I stayed there for, well, let’s see...in total, I guess I stayed there about eight or ten months. Weisskopf: At the semiworks? MacCready: No. No, after I left the semiworks. I was at semiworks I think six or seven months, something like that. And then I was about eight months or so at the Wabash (inaudible) which was where this plant was, how this plant was named. And then I came what at the time was a major tragedy. It seems that there was a real significant shortage of supervisory help back at the dye works, and the guy who had that and had the ethyl chloride plant as part of his responsibility had sent out word that he wanted me back. So I came back, and I wasn’t happy. Weisskopf: Did that involve a move, living in your house, or were you still living in New Jersey? MacCready: No, no, we had left and were living in a house in --- well, actually in Illinois, right across the border. This plant was in Indiana. So, yeah, we --- we had not moved all of our stuff in, because it was that sort a time. At any rate, I came back, and I wasn’t happy. And that was about the first thing I told the man when I got back, that I was not happy, that I didn’t want to --- because what he wanted me to do was to supervise the old ethyl chloride plant, and that I was no longer in the position of feeling my particular interest in or benefit from another turn of supervising the ethyl chloride plant. He said well, we were really at a critical stage, we needed somebody that we know was familiar with that kind of process. But he said “I promise in a year we’ll get you someplace else.” And so far as I know, he was as good as his word, because a year later was when I was transferred to the Manhattan District. And from then, of course, you know, went through the business of going to Oak Ridge, and --- Weisskopf: Well, let me ask you this: First of all, what year was it that DuPont asked you to do that? That was in ‘43 still? MacCready: To go where? Weisskopf: To join that project. MacCready: Which one? Weisskopf: The Manhattan Project. MacCready: That would have been January the 2nd of 1944. Weisskopf: Yes, okay. Because you didn’t come out until April of ‘44. MacCready: That’s right. Weisskopf: Okay. Do you remember how they presented it to you, since it was still kind of top secret and you might have said no? MacCready: Yeah, I think there were several of us that reported in at that time, and as I recall we got sat down and got about an hour’s worth of lecture to get the big picture, and then were given documents to get more detail. And I spent a month there reading and attending some meetings when we would get together and talk about things in general. Weisskopf: Was this in Wilmington? MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. So I guess this was when things were rolling right along at Hanford, and you were sort of jumping in in the middle of the process as opposed to the very beginning stages of it. MacCready: Well, it’s hard to say, because everything really, in terms of everything except the preparatory work and the whole digging underground, underneath concrete work, only those things had actually occurred by the time I got out here in April. Weisskopf: The walls weren’t up? MacCready: No. They were just getting above ground level on T when I got out here. So in terms of the business of building of the thing, association with building of the thing, the only thing that had occurred was this basic business of the concrete footings for T. And, of course, similarly for other (inaudible). So what we did in the way of the construction checking, starting then that it really came into detail work about late May. We were getting the place then where we really had to pay attention to what was going on. Weisskopf: In your history, you mentioned that there were really only two people sent out from Wilmington to act as construction checkers? MacCready: Insofar as the 200 area was concerned, yeah. Ken Millan (phonetic) was sent out in January, I think it was, and then I came in April. This was about the time that things were really getting to the serious part. Ken moved in town to do some things there, and I was --- I was the only one ever beyond that. Ken and me, we were the only ones ever that had the actual situation where we were officially denominated as such and presented to the construction supervision and management as the official consultant. Weisskopf: I guess there were similar people in the 100 area? MacCready: I assume so, but I do not know. Weisskopf: You weren’t supposed to know, right? MacCready: Well, there was no reason why I should know, and I had no reason to go there. I didn’t go over there during any of their construction. One of the things that, as I look back, that made what I did easier was because it did officially get presented and accepted by the construction management before they or we were getting to any of this more complicated stuff, so by the time we did, I had been around, and I had been talking with, and we had gotten well acquainted, and I had done enough things that were helpful that I had a platform to work from when I had to get more and more of my nose into things that would otherwise have been the case. And we never had trouble of that sort. I don’t know, another thing maybe that had something to do with it, just as was true of myself and the guys who were ultimately coming out to go through with me and on, become supervisors, we were all young, and so were the supervisors and managers for construction. Let’s see, at the time that I came out, I was 31, and I recall a guy who was in charge for construction of T Plant was 27. Weisskopf: And how did that affect your relationship? MacCready: Well, I think it was easier for us. We had not, either one, got into any different patterns, so that what we were proposing to have as a pattern here was being asked to do something strange compared to what we had done before. This, I’m sure, was the first job of anything approaching this magnitude that this guy had had. The same thing was true for me. Weisskopf: Because you mention in your history that it was an important relationship between the designers and the people who were supervising construction and the crafts people who were actually doing it. MacCready: Right. Weisskopf: And it was a delicate balance --- MacCready: That’s right. Weisskopf: --- that you had to interact with. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: And would you talk to all of them, or would you have a chain of command that you would try to work with? MacCready: With respect to the supervision of construction --- well, it sounds a little silly now, in a sense, but it was true, and it’s the way it worked. There were interchanges of information in between my field guys, as we were, you know, things like finishing off all the piping, and so on, in T, and so on. But as they were working on the jobs, they would talk of course with the construction people that were working there at the same time, but there was never any exchange of official knowledge, or orders, or requests or anything that went from us to construction or design or anybody else except through me. That was one thing that I knew when I started. Weisskopf: So people who were working for you and with you, they filtered their information or requests through you. MacCready: That’s right, yeah. If they thought they saw something that was wrong, they said it to me, and I said it out there. I was sure in my own mind, as things were developing, that that was something that I must set up, that we could have nothing except chaos if I left all of my guys --- Weisskopf: Saying it in their own way, their own emphasis, style. MacCready: Just God knows who, yeah. So that was a hard and fast rule. Weisskopf: And this allowed you to keep track of everything in one place and present it in the same way you presented it the previous time. MacCready: Yeah. And it worked fine. Weisskopf: And it took the responsibility off the guys working under you --- MacCready: Sure. Weisskopf: --- not to have to be the bad guy. MacCready: That’s right, yeah. They simply could do their looking, and there were some --- as we got into some of the fine stuff, you know, like I think I mentioned all of those multiple lines coming into the cells, actually my counterpart in T early on --- well, not early on, when we got to that, said that we I think better decide to have you send your people in to work with mine on every damn one of these, because they know more about where it has to be, and so on and so on, than our people do, and why they have to be there, because we don’t know that. And I said yes. So we did. In those kind of jobs, the people would work together, and it didn’t matter which they were, they were working together doing it, but there was nothing under --- nothing like any “No, that’s wrong,” or that sort. They were doing it. In that respect, we all depended on our guys and their guys on each one of those jobs doing it right, in other words. Weisskopf: Interesting. The tape is almost finished. Should we take a short break, maybe? (Short break) MacCready: Something that I think is significant in what I did and how I did it. As you know by now, the things, particularly with respect to the Hanford situation in those early days that I was involved with, had great emphasis, or attention to, awareness of, an understanding of, not the processes but the equipment. And very early on, when I got out into the plant at the dye works, more of the things you had to pay attention to, work with to see that they behaved properly, were equipment problems rather than process problems. In other words, let us say this was more chemical engineering than chemistry. I was educated as a chemist. I was not educated as an engineer. But I had a rare opportunity there. The dye works had been in existence for about 20 years, and they had large central shops, and they also had small groups of maintenance, mechanics, in most all of the individual plants. So I had the opportunity, necessarily, to work on those kinds of things in association with these veteran craftsmen who had been through, by then, most of them, 15, 20 years or more of handling the equipment. So I learned my engineering from the craftsmen. And I think it was doubly important. It was important because I learned it at a fundamental level, but it was also important then, and really I think became more important in later years, because as a consequence of that, I think I always had a greater understanding of the interests and attitudes and approaches of the working stiffs. Weisskopf: Who actually had to use the equipment, and monitor it, and maintain it. MacCready: Right, yeah. Weisskopf: Would you say that the chemistry side of things, that you were trained in, was always done in the purely mathematical sense ahead of time, on paper, and then you would try and make it happen in the lab, right? MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: And the closer you got to your mathematical calculations, the more accurate you assumed was your equipment and process. MacCready: Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing, too, that certainly was true and certainly grew in my mind, was that in the long run, and all of it, the most important thing was getting it done, and the full cooperation of the people was the only way that could happen. Weisskopf: You couldn’t be a snooty chemist back in the lab telling them how to get things done, right? MacCready: Yeah. It was easy for me to --- I think that old boy back in Jacksonville lab had taken --- he’d taken his readings, and basically what he was saying and the way he sent me out and told the people out there about me was that he can get things done with people. And as I look back on it, that’s been about it. Weisskopf: Just cooperating with the rest of the people involved in the project, and making it happen? MacCready: Well, and more particularly the fact that the people in the work force could understand me better than they could an awful lot of their supervisors and managers, and I could watch some of the guys working as supervisors and managers and understand that. They didn’t know how to get along with people. They didn’t know how to make an opportunity for those people to be happy and satisfied. Weisskopf: Isn’t it the nature of a chemist, though, to do the elegant work in the lab, have papers that show how it’s all going to work --- MacCready: Sure. Weisskopf: --- and then get frustrated when they can’t build a factory that actually makes it happen? MacCready: I don’t know about that, how they feel about that. They do, though, you know, they have a hard time, getting away from the --- if they are working with other people, highly trained chemists, they probably can get along much better. But the bulk of the people who are doing the job in any field of activity are not --- it’s not at that level. Once you get out of being in a research atmosphere, it’s one of the classic things. Security, of course, was always tight. And after the bomb was --- even before that. And one of the great stories was one evening --- you know, you couldn’t take anything out that wasn’t examined by the guy when you’re leaving the area. And if you had your lunch bucket, or something, you had to show him. And if you had any kind of package, you had to show him. And one of the guys who was in essence in research, working process-wise, was out there, and he had, in addition to his lunch bucket, he had a sack. One of the guys stopped him. He opened up his lunch bucket and showed him, and that was fine, and then started to go, and “No, what’s in the sack?” And I guess that was just enough to irritate him. “Well, look for yourself.” The only trouble was, the window wasn’t open. Weisskopf: He threw it through the window? MacCready: No. I don’t know, I think he had a jar or something in there, and he broke it and probably spilled some juice or something. Weisskopf: And how did security affect your construction checking, when theoretically you were checking all sorts of different processes that maybe some people only knew parts of? MacCready: Security didn’t have any --- theirs was strictly a matter of physical situation. Security people didn’t run around anywhere in the --- Weisskopf: No. But you still had to follow certain rules and ways of doing things as far as what you could talk about with other workers? MacCready: Well, that was something that came from the top early on, when you reported in. Long since, you just didn’t do that. Weisskopf: You had to look at plans, right, during this checking process? Blueprints? MacCready: Oh, sure. Weisskopf: And yet a lot of the people you worked with might not have seen those blueprints, might not know the entire process of the building? MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: But you could just work with them on their one area of concern? MacCready: You mean the checkers? Weisskopf: Yeah. MacCready: The people working for me on the --- Weisskopf: Sure. MacCready: --- checks? Yeah. Well, see, once we got sizeable activities and really were getting into all of the multitudinous details, that was when I had always the Monday morning get-together, and people were assigned their particular area to look after for that week or until it was finished, and they could report that in. And things were moving so fast that I had those meetings weekly, and people would finish up on one thing and they’d be doing another, and so on. So on that basis, see, they took with them, or they looked at the prints that had to do with that particular area that they were involved with to be --- that was just the way it worked. Of course, all along we had, in the earlier stages, we had lots of time for the people reporting in then to keep burying their nose in the prints. Well, by the same token, the people who were coming in from Oak Ridge had probably spent the last month that they were there with their nose in the prints. So they had a pretty general understanding of things, and you could assign segments to them and they knew how to find the right stuff to look at. Weisskopf: Okay. Did the people who worked under you, how much understanding did they have of what, say, one of the canyon buildings was supposed to do? MacCready: You mean my --- Weisskopf: The actual checkers. MacCready: My construction? Weisskopf: Yeah. MacCready: My construction checkers were people who were going to be supervisors, and they knew the project. They knew the whole process. They did not work in the dark, no. Weisskopf: Okay. And one of the critical checking jobs, as I understood it, was checking the piping that would go to all the cells before it got filled up with concrete. MacCready: (inaudible). Weisskopf: Number one, they couldn’t have blueprints out on the job, could they? How did they check the actual piping against the plan that was needed? MacCready: There would be one out there that the construction people were using. Weisskopf: Well, the stories I keep hearing is all the plans were locked up and a foreman would have to go in, look at it, take notes, and come back out again. Maybe that was in general. MacCready: That was in general, yeah. But for something specific, highly detailed thing like that in a small area, yeah, they would only need one blueprint to do it. Weisskopf: Right. Okay. What sort of things would they check? When they’re getting ready to pour concrete, what would be the things they would want to check? Specifically concerning the in-wall piping that went to the cells. MacCready: They would want to check each one of those multitudinous lines from where it started to where it went, because they had had to start in the right place and go to the right place. Weisskopf: How would they do that, by the way? How do you check and see if the end of the pipe that’s 60 feet over there matches this pipe here? Do you blow through it, or run something through it? MacCready: There’s ways of that nature, yeah. I think you would say it would vary. Some of the things would be where you could literally follow them. It may be 60 feet, but it’s 60 feet where you can keep your eyeball on it without too much trouble. And then there would be others, particularly some of the (inaudible) rascals where you would have a hell of a time, but you would pretty much have to follow it physically to be sure. There’s nothing on the print that would assure you about that, it will simply assure you that it’s going from there to there, but they are not going to show, of course, the thing, as you say, if it’s many feet long. So you literally did have to follow them. I suspect, I don’t know all that the kids used, I suspect some of them, they may have run things through, but mostly I think they just physically followed them. Weisskopf: And were there fittings and joints that would be imbedded in concrete? Did you pressure check the lines before you poured concrete? Was that part of it? MacCready: Yeah. Yeah. They would --- I think they would probably have used a final stage, when they had followed all of them, of having a water run and see to it. Then they could tell when they started there, they were supposed to come out there, and they could see. If it did, then that was --- Weisskopf: That would be visual proof. MacCready: That was the final check. And, as you say, I think they probably used some pressure testing, shutting them up and loading in 20, 30 pounds of air to get a check. Weisskopf: Let me ask you this: You also ran tests just before startup. Do you remember anybody having to tear in the concrete to fix a pipe? MacCready: No. Weisskopf: Really? MacCready: No. Weisskopf: Out of all those hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of --- MacCready: No. See, they had been checked so many times before then, that no. No, there was never any of that. Weisskopf: That surprises me, because, what, each cell had, what, 40-some-odd pipes coming into it? MacCready: Yeah, 42 I think it was. Weisskopf: And there were 40 cells. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: And there was pipe also doing the same thing in the pipe trench, there were all the connectors coming into there? MacCready: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Weisskopf: Boy. Did you find out when the building was done that there were two pipes that had been switched by accident? Did that occur? MacCready: Not that late, no. There were some occasions of that sort --- Weisskopf: Which construction check --- MacCready: --- during the earlier stages of the thing, when construction check found them. Probably the most embarrassing one to the draftsman was one that occurred in T Plant towards the head end. I remember the geography all that closely. But at any rate, there was a pipe up there that was supposed to carry acid from one of the tanks out there operating for --- into something in the head end, and it was an acid of some kind, probably sulfuric acid, at a guess. At any rate, acid of some sort. And the check that was done with respect to that came upon the fact that this line had somehow got itself hooked in so that it was in the line that fed the tank on the stool in the bathroom that was on the front end of the plant. That kind of tore the thing. Weisskopf: What would the result have been had it been left? Would the toilet have come out of the pipe or would the acid have headed towards the toilet? MacCready: The acid would have headed towards the toilet. Weisskopf: That would have been embarrassing. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. But the construction checkers discovered that and it was then fixed. MacCready: Oh, yes. Weisskopf: Which was the whole point of doing the construction checks. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: So it sounds like the construction checking did its job, found a few problems, ensured that everything was where it was supposed to be. When the plant was ready to start up, you went through a series of testing not just the joints, but flushing and --- MacCready: The first thing you did was you had what’s called a water run. In other words, you went through all of the steps that you would go through in processing, but just using water so that you could check for whether it was going where it was supposed to go and when it was supposed to. Weisskopf: And was that done under pressure and heat and all the normal things? MacCready: No, it was just done --- the only thing was to see that it --- that there were no leaks, and that it was starting from the right place and going to the right place according to what your instrumentation said should be happening. Weisskopf: Any idea, off the top of your head, how many individual pipes there might have been in that entire building that would have done individual jobs during the process? MacCready: Gee. Weisskopf: It would be an astronomical number, I presume. MacCready: Yes. Weisskopf: Whether it was feeding acid, or moving material, or bringing in steam, electricity. MacCready: Or being hitched up to instruments. Weisskopf: It might be an impossible question, without really sitting down and counting. MacCready: Well, about the only thing I --- I don’t know --- nominally, there of course was as many connections to something or other as there were outputs in the cell. And I don’t know, I’m sure we had some spares in there. Weisskopf: Right. MacCready: But probably at least half, and I expect maybe closer to three-quarters of them were in service each time that there was a batch going through that particular place. Weisskopf: Let me jump ahead to the idea of --- the T Plant worked on the batch process. MacCready: Yep. Weisskopf: Where you’d start a batch at one end and move it through the process and it came out at the other end, and it would take a day or so to complete. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Would you also, I understood, have multiple batches moving down the line at the same time? MacCready: Yeah. Yeah. Weisskopf: About how many batches might be pushed through in any one day, or might be in the plant at any given moment? MacCready: Oh, let’s see. Weisskopf: Rough idea? MacCready: Yeah. I guess there probably could be half a dozen maybe moving through. Weisskopf: Okay. Now, my next question is, what’s the big deal, then, about moving from batch processing to a steady flow process like they use, what, in REDOX? MacCready: In REDOX? Weisskopf: Yeah. If you’re moving six batches along at a time in T Plant, that sounds pretty efficient to me. MacCready: In that respect, yeah. The truth of the matter is that if you get away from the business of the degree of snazzy complexity of chemistry, that you have available the later ones. There wasn’t any real advantage. And, looking back on it and thinking of some of the things that you can do and can’t do in each one of them, it probably would have been smarter all the way around to never have gone away from just running T and B and U if you needed to, actually. But everybody --- those towers and all, and the exchange opportunities to get stuff for going from the one zone into the other, and suchlike, was very heady chemistry indeed, and very snazzy equipment. Like I think I said before, that was pretty much old-fashioned nuts and bolts kind of work that was going on in T, but it worked. And there is a great advantage always in processing when you expect, you know, you want to keep putting out product all the time, there’s an awful lot of solace if you’ve got steps so that you can do some switching around. For instance, you could run, say, in T Plant, and you got to the process in some cell halfway down the line, and there’s a leak or there’s something or other, and you’re stuck there. But, see, T was built, all of them were, so that you had --- each kind of processing you had three or four duplicate cells. You know, they didn’t --- it only went through about a quarter of those cells. So if you had something of that sort, you could certainly, and we did a few times, you could stop at that stage and haul the stuff out of there and transfer it over to a similar cell someplace else where whatever was troubling you there wouldn’t trouble you again. If you have that kind of equipment problem comes up with the columns, when that happens, she’s all down. Weisskopf: That’s it? MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Everything at the front of the process has to wait until the part at the end of the process gets out. MacCready: That’s right, yeah. Because it’s all going through the same..... [tape ran out] MacCready: That’s not to say that you couldn’t build a plant of that nature and do that and have that duplication. Weisskopf: Right. MacCready: But the doing of it would mean that the duplication would be something that would cost you many times as much as it would have in the relatively simple T Plant approach. Weisskopf: Yeah. What’s the opposite of batch processing? What was it called, that REDOX and PUREX, their word for it? I can’t remember what it is. But it’s continuous. MacCready: Continuous processing, yes. And there’s things you can do on continuous processing that of course are not possible with the kind of plants that they have. When I was running the ethyl chloride plant, that, the one that I started with, the new one, it was a continuous process plant. And there are lots of things that you can do in a continuous process plant to coggle (phonetic) up problems without shutting down. Weisskopf: Right. You learn real fast probably. MacCready: Yeah. See, your hands on, you can do things to the equipment. You can’t do that with the radioactive stuff. Weisskopf: Okay. MacCready: Now, I can remember, we had two-story-long glass separation systems in the ethyl chloride plant, and once in a while there would be a problem with something. One of the things that most happened would be one of the damn rubber washers would start leaking. We ran the thing in a fashion where the ethyl chloride went through, after it was made, it went through as a gas. We had a pump system, a big pump system that pulled it out and compressed enough then to make it a liquid, and we would keep that liquid in the storage tanks. But because of that, because we had that system, we could kick the compressor up a little bit and we could actually jack one of those segments up an inch or so and snatch out that messed up gasket, put a new one in, and set the thing back down, or put it up. Now, that didn’t work perfectly, because some of the ethyl chloride would come out in the process while we were there, but it was not a problem. You tended to be a little bit drunk when it was over, but that was all. Well, things of that sort we could do. One time we had multiple generators of gas, two of them, and we had pumps there that were moving the stuff. And since what we were moving was hydrochloric acid gas, which is very corrosive, it was always held with pumps that picked it up and pumped it over to go through the rest of the process. So we were forever having this kind of leak here, there and yonder. And to make it doubly troublesome, because of the kind of thing that it was, we used a type of pump that used sulfuric acid as the thing that moved the stuff. So we had to feed it with sulfuric acid. And that was one of the things that was always bitched about, is that you maybe get a leak in that damn sulfuric acid line. Everything else would be running nice, and there this thing would mess you up. Well, we had an acid resistant putty, and you could usually wrap up the piece of pipe, it almost always happened in a joint, you know, pipe was going into a fixture, and you could usually put some of that stuff around there and some tape over it, and then go on, and you wouldn’t have to shut down. I remember one time we got to a place where we had some basic problem and we had to shut down, and we had had a leak on one of those sulfuric acid lines, had puttied it up to see to it that it didn’t leak. While we were down, we were going to take that stuff off and put in their pipe. And when we took it over, we had a wound up place where we had a putty thing, it was about this big all the way around. When we opened it up, there was two inches in there, but there wasn’t anything but putty that was running through. All the metal was gone. Weisskopf: Wow. And this was the kind of thing you couldn’t do in one of the cells. MacCready: No. You can’t do anything in that. Weisskopf: Instead of a 10-minute job, it would be a day and a half to take equipment out, and get new equipment and put it in. MacCready: That’s right. So the business, really, of getting through and getting plutonium out, at any time, certainly the business of getting the simplest and the most simplest approach and one that you could put in lots of duplication to go from a piece of equipment that’s not working and so on, that is by all --- and using as simple chemistry that you possibly could, all of those things were in mine, all of those things were superbly met by what they did. So I think that it was not only good in that respect, I think that after the experience that we had had with the later plants, in all honesty, if I were having to make the damn stuff to make a living, I’d use the T Plant. Weisskopf: Simple, basic batch process. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Duplicatible. Flexible. MacCready: So that you could be very damn sure, really, that you were going to get at the end of the month what you needed to get, because if one didn’t work, you could use a duplicate, and so on and so on. And you can’t beat that kind of backup. Weisskopf: Right. Right. It worked well. So in other words, if one batch took a day to get through, but you could have six batches going at the same time at different phases of the process --- MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: --- so in any given day you might have processed six tons, or whatever a batch was, of uranium. MacCready: Now, let’s see... Weisskopf: Was it that simple? MacCready: No, it can’t quite be. Because you have to start off with a batch, see, by dissolving the slugs. And dissolving a batch of those things, it took at least nine hours, maybe more than that. Weisskopf: So that was one limiting factor to how many batches you could run. MacCready: Yes. Weisskopf: The other processes might go quickly, but --- MacCready: Yeah, many of those others would go rather quickly. Weisskopf: So in any 24-hour period, you might be able to dissolve three batches at the most. MacCready: At the most, I would say, yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. MacCready: And I don’t think that we routinely ever tried to do that. I think we probably did do it on occasion, but generally speaking our capacity in T was such that at the time, just the first three reactors, that whatever we wanted to do, we could do it faster than they could. We would have time when there wasn’t any uranium there to --- Weisskopf: That was using two of the plants, though, U and B Plant, T and B. MacCready: That certainly is true. No question about it, yeah. I’m not sure whether we could have get ahead of them with one. Weisskopf: But with two, it was no problem. MacCready: Two, it was no problem. We were, as you say, frequently without materials to dissolve. Weisskopf: In the early phases, or even later on, as you got more efficient? MacCready: Let’s see, I’m trying to... Weisskopf: But you guys weren’t the bottleneck. MacCready: No. No, because, see, we never used more than T and B for this, and that went through handling everything except maybe the last reactor that they had. Weisskopf: Oh, that included DR Reactor, and then H? That was in the late forties, wasn’t it? MacCready: Yeah. Everything --- Weisskopf: And then C Reactor came in the early fifties. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: And that’s about when REDOX started, was early ‘51 or ‘2? MacCready: Yeah. Yeah. Weisskopf: So two plants were handling not just three reactors, but four, and then five, and then possibly six reactors. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Because you were getting more efficient and better at it, too. MacCready: Well, or maybe we just had that much basic capacity. It wasn’t, you know, when you stop and think about it, not too much as long as you could --- as long as you could handle the stuff dissolving, there was very little likelihood you would get hung up for any significant time, because if you got a hang-up, you’d just switch to a sister cell of the same type. Maybe lose an hour or two, but that’s about all. It was an awfully flexible system, really. Weisskopf: And you said for one given process you only used maybe 25% of the cells? MacCready: I would say so, yes. Weisskopf: Less than half. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Let me ask you this, just to kind of change gears. If this had not been radioactive --- that had been my earlier question. It was basic chemistry. If the material hadn’t been radioactive, it would have been just another ethyl chloride factory, in a sense --- MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: --- as far as the equipment and --- MacCready: As a matter of fact, it would have been a simpler plant. Weisskopf: Okay. You were only using a quarter of the cells, which means if the equipment had not been in cells, it would have taken up maybe a hundred feet of factory floor, something like that? MacCready: Oh, be generous, give them two hundred feet. Weisskopf: Okay. A quarter of the length of the building. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: And that’s with plenty of room for getting in and working on it and everything else. MacCready: Yeah, if you could get in --- in the first place, if you could get in and work on it, it wasn’t that kind of thing, you wouldn’t have all these walls in between. Weisskopf: Right. Right. It would just be on one long factory floor. MacCready: That’s right. Weisskopf: And with workmen going around with oil cans, and turning valves, and everything else. MacCready: Yeah. It would have been an awful lot like that old ethyl chloride plant, which was basically a batch process. It had a whole bunch of tanks that it used. Weisskopf: And if you had been designing this factory, or working with DuPont to design it not radioactive, that would have been one line. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: You would have had --- one line was equivalent to the entire T Plant, how many lines might you have built? You could have built as many as you wanted, right? MacCready: Yeah, you could have. But if you had an ordinary plant of the kind that I’m familiar with, like the ethyl chloride plants, or the camphor plants, or the TL Plants, or we had a plant that made sulfuric acid. Generally speaking, if you built a plant that had the capacity to take care of the indicated market that they foresaw, you would just build the one plant. Weisskopf: And maybe make the building a little bit bigger so in the future you could throw in another line. MacCready: That’s right. Weisskopf: Okay. And, as you were saying, two lines would have been kind of enough. U and B Plant with like two lines would have been enough to handle the reactors --- MacCready: Would have handled it. Weisskopf: --- for the first five, six, eight years. MacCready: Yeah, it would have. Weisskopf: And you could have done away with all the duplication and flexibility. MacCready: That’s right. Weisskopf: It would have been a lot simpler. MacCready: It would have been, yeah. Because you can be --- there were more things to hold you up timewise in that first ethyl chloride plant that I ran than you would have in this kind of a process if it weren’t for the radioactivity. And after the first year, when we got all of the bugs out, and such like, that one plant ran 94.6% of the time for the year. Weisskopf: Which plant was this you’re referring to? MacCready: This ethyl chloride plant. Weisskopf: The first one? The batch one? MacCready: No. Weisskopf: The newer one. MacCready: The newer one. Which had many more ways to have trouble, the major thing being that it was handling very corrosive materials all the time, which always gives you problems. Weisskopf: How did that compare with T Plant and B Plant as far as their operation time the first year? MacCready: Well, fundamentally they ran 100% of the time, because they had the wherewithal. And when you got these spreaders around, you don’t have to stop. Weisskopf: The process could keep going while you would go about fixing the problem earlier on. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Maybe you could help me with one --- I’d like to ask you about the equipment that was used. But maybe before we finish, because you’re probably getting tired, too --- MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: The precipitator, the big tank, had a column on top, that was part of the process. Not the dissolver, but when you would put in the bismuth phosphate, and you’d agitate it in a big tank, and it a column, 2-foot by 12-foot column on top. MacCready: I don’t remember, really. Weisskopf: I can bring you a picture next time, maybe it will ring a bell. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: I’m not enough of a chemist by any means to understand when you precipitate out something, physically what kind of equipment --- I’ve seen it done in a lab, just by stirring up a beaker, right? MacCready: Yeah. Well, I don’t remember what it might be. The basic means of separating the solid from the liquid --- Weisskopf: I think I was wrong, too. What I was talking about was the dissolver. It had a column? MacCready: Oh, yeah. Weisskopf: It did. MacCready: Yes. Weisskopf: For some reason or other, it’s still not in my mind why --- who cares if the dissolver has a column in it, if all you’re doing is dissolving stuff in acid. So it had a 12-foot tall column. MacCready: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Please explain that to me. MacCready: Well, that, of course, is the dissolution business leads to a certain amount of gas, acid, acidic gas being emitted, and that had to be caught and controlled, and that was what the column was for. Weisskopf: Was it like a still, where it would liquefy and drip back down again? MacCready: Well, it would --- I’ve forgotten the details. But I would guess, yeah, we probably had the means of, as the stuff’s coming up there, showering it a little bit and hitting it back down. Weisskopf: Why didn’t you just pressure cook it? Why didn’t you just crank the valves shut and let the acid dissolve it under pressure? Where would the gas have gone then? MacCready: Well, it would have gone down, along with the material. Weisskopf: Oh. Yeah. Okay. MacCready: And that you would prefer not to have happen. See, it takes pretty strong acid to dissolve that stuff up. I’m sure that this was simply a matter of seeing to it that they did not let that get away. Weisskopf: Okay. I didn’t understand that. Are you about out of words at this point? MacCready: I think about. - END - Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:58:06 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William Kenneth "Mac" MacReady Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Gardner Clark "G.C." Blackburn conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. MacReady was a DuPont Chemist during WWII and was a T Plant "Checker" Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/19/1999 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F02b56db236412471c7b703a407b8d1cf.MP3 55dd600e309c38b563df66be82739ead Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bill Michael Location The location of the interview Phone Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A - Transcript needs editing. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:52:10 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bill Michael Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Gardner Clark "G.C." Blackburn conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. Michael was a DuPont Engineer during WWII at the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/2/1998 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F772c6e4d5c8825a2649360a14bb9fd1b.m4v abb43540475494b7104d4096ad1b7a51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack A. Houston Location The location of the interview Home of Jack Houston Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:38:33 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 160kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jack Houston Oral History Part 2 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From CRESHT Oral History Agreement: "Jack Houston - Oral History - Segment 4 Floods and Adult Live and Events." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/16/2012 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource m4v Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2012.92 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff2bc3d2ccdb24a84f8ec632340a31e92.mp4 6b8e449b4da7f84a9abf8bcf7c02b126 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donald R. Kalkwarf Location The location of the interview Home of Donald R. Kalkwarf. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound N/A Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:56 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donald R. Kalkwarf Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Dr. Kalkwarf has a doctorate in chemistry and worked in biology, chemistry, and other disciplines beginning with General Electric in 1951. Extensive World War II experiences." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/28/2011 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2011.81 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffa3f552d5e05c5fe672b53a4e6b87c2e.mp4 dc6cf5b4262cd705fe8555eafe291f39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Unknown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kay Lamb Location The location of the interview CREHST Museum, Richland, WA Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound TITLE: KAY LAMB INTERVIEW DATE: FEBRUARY 11, 2002 INTERVIEW LOCATION: CREHST MUSEUM, RICHLAND, WA INTERVIEWER: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWED: KAY LAMB TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 20 MINUTES KAY: I arrived in Richland in 1948. My husband opened the John Ball School in North Richland. I guess it was at the time General Electric took over and there was more construction going on. A large trailer park was built where the business are now in North Richland. The school opened on February of 1948 and was open until 1955. INTERVIEWER: Okay, Kay tell us a little about the difficulties in construction of the John Ball School or any other funny stories. Different type of stories about this unique school. KAY: When we arrived, the first phase of the school was there. There were twelve hutments. Six facing on each side facing a wide hall. There was no planting around there at all. Nothing but gravel and sand. The wind would blow. Some teachers blew right out of town when they encountered their first dust storm. The first day of school, I think there were 60 children registered. On the second day, there were 60 children. On the third day there were 153 children enrolled. There were 160 some trailers in the camp. At the end of that school year they had over 400 children. There was double shifting in order to take of the children. This, of course, demanded more trailers so they added more Quant-sets, and also a huge Quant-set which was the cafeteria and auditorium. They were able to take care of the children in that way. The halls were nice and wide. Some of the P.E. classes had to be held in the hall. Some of the Art classes, also were held in the hall. Art Classes in nice weather were outside on the side of the river. When the alarms came for practice drills, the children scampered outside. The children then lay down in a ditch. This was between the schoolhouse and the river. There were many, many funny things that happened there. All of the teachers that were out there said, “That it was a wonderful experience just to have been there under those conditions”. INTERVIEWER: Can you tell us some of the funny things that happened? KAY: Well, I cannot think of anything right now, but there were lots of funny things that happened. INTERVIEWER: You will probably remember some as we go along. KAY: Yes INTERVIEWER: Okay, How long was your husband principal at John Ball School? KAY: My husband was principal for that year, 1948-1949. From there he went to Spalding’s and was principal for Spalding’s School. James LaCair followed him as principal, and then he moved to the Sacajawea School; Winfield Fountain was a popular principal out there. Eric Sodaburg was the last principal and the school closed in 1955. The construction camp was gone, and the buildings there now are Battelle‘s. INTERVIEWER: Some of these Quant-sets were taken out to…..Were they demolished. KAY: The school is all gone now. INTERVIEWER: They got rid of all the Quant-sets all together. KAY: Yes, but the trailers were each on 40 feet (foot) lots. In every square block, there was a washhouse, shower and bathroom facilities. INTERVIEWER: Where were the trailers in location to the school? KAY: The school was along the river. Trailers were all around it. INTERVIEWER: All around the school. KAY: All around the school, yes. As one of the women I was talking to the other day, she said “They asked them where they would like to put their trailer, and they said close to the school”. The answer was “Yes, you and everyone else.” She said, “The school was on “A” Street and we were on “U” Street.” INTERVIEWER: Okay, you taught at Lewis & Clark. What year did you start? KAY: Yes, I started teaching in the fall of 1948 at Lewis & Clark. Lewis & Clark School was close to our home. Our children went to school there. INTERVIEWER: How big was Lewis & Clark School? KAY: Lewis & Clark School, I do not remember exactly how large it was. We had three teachers at each grade level. INTERVIEWER: What was the average number of children you had in a classroom? What grade level did you teach. KAY: I taught the fourth grade. We had 30 to 35 students in the rooms. The first year I taught, we had a fire at Lewis & Clark School. We then had to go into smaller quarters. I remember, we just had to crawl over the desks to get around, because I had 35 students. That was quite a year too. INTERVIEWER: Now, you taught all subjects then as a fourth grade teacher. There were no specialists really at that time. Did you give a P.E.? KAY: Yes, we had boys and girls P.E. classes. There were two P.E. teachers, one Art, and Music teacher. We had all of those plus… a Librarian and a Reading Specialist who helped us with children who were having problems. That is when I first started, we continued to have that, and improved on it. INTERVIEWER: Kay has a scrapbook here from the John Ball School. Kay is going to explain a few things here in it. There is a picture, that picture was taken in what year, approximately. KAY: Oh, it must have been 1948. This is the faculty. My husband and the secretary. And this, of course, is a picture of the whole area here. Here is the school and these are the trailers. INTERVIEWER: The trailers went all the way around the school. Well not all the way around. KAY: All of these areas, and here is the school. I guess this is the school right here. INTERVIEWER: Now this is a shot of when it first opened. KAY: Yes. INTERVIEWER: How far up North Richland, was the Ball School? It was beside the river and what street presently now would it be close to? KAY: I am not familiar enough with that. It would have been closer to the river than Battelle. Right across from Goose Island. We were there at the time of the flood. That was the Spring of 1948. INTERVIEWER: Okay, now this page is special. Okay, go ahead. KAY: The Art teacher, Janet Baconstine, made these for some occasion we had. They were on newsprint and charcoal. Anyway, this represents the Lambs arriving in Richland in 1948. Here it shows us getting settled. This picture is of the janitor taking the lady teachers to an outhouse, because there was no plumbing the first few days. INTERVIEWER: John Ball School had no plumbing. KAY: That is right. When they first opened. So, the janitor took them out to this abandon outhouse. Here the woman is guarding the door, so no workman would come use it while it was occupied. Then here’s a picture of us: the wind blowing and the sun shinning on John Ball School. The teachers often brought their lunches, so they would get together at noon. This picture is where one of the teachers is peering in the closet to get out the food. This is a picture of the janitor setting in the hall on his cart eating his lunch. In this picture, the teacher is scurrying to put their food away from lunch as the bell rings for school to take- up again. At the end of the school year, the teachers gave a party and they gave my husband, presented my husband with a chair. I think it was Loretta Roadie, carrying this chair past the office trying to be sure he did not see it. She took it to where they were having the party. This is the picture of a child during a dust storm. Here, they finally got, the heat was coming on, but it was hot and we did not need the heat anymore. This is my husband and Ernie Curtis having a coffee break. This is a picture of my husband at the desk dreaming about the gymnasium and cafeteria they would have. This is Vera Edwards on the playground, and the dust has come-up and she has lost her P.E. class. Here they are, she and Bill Bressler, playing ping-pong in the hall. This is the one I told you about that left during the dust storm. This is a picture of the nurse, Ruth Heingardner, when she was ill. Here is a sign when the cafeteria will open. Finally, in May. The drinking fountains, you see, she made a joke of them. This one was a funny little incident. Here is the janitor wearing a gas mask cleaning-up during a dust storm. The dust is coming in the windows. INTERVIEWER: Now, did you experience the same problems with dust in Lewis & Clark School? KAY: Oh no. Not nearly as bad, but we had to put a rag over his face and send him to the basement. You see there were lots and lots of kids. At that time, there were a thousand kids in that school. INTERVIEWER: In the John Ball School, a thousand kids. Now what grades. KAY: Well, that went through the 8th grade. Elementary school. Kindergarten thru 8th grade, until Carmikel was finished. Then the 8th grade went….the seventh and eighth graders went. In 1971 they moved into the new building. INTERVIEWER: So, you were there. KAY: I was there just a half of a semester. We moved in January, and I retired in the Spring. INTERVIEWER: So you did not get to spend much time in the school. KAY: No, but it was alright with me. It was a new concept of schools. They had what they called “Pods”. It was all an open area. INTERVIEWER: Yea right, things changed in the 1970’s quite a bit in education. That was the California attitude that started coming in. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:16:03 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kay Lamb Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource Kay Lamb was one of the original teachers at the John Ball School in North Richland, a school made out of hutments that served the North Richland Construction Camp. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/11/2002 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7527c131a4fb4ed65d224b094c759499.mp4 b6135fcebe2523c29775ac58fcc447d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Delores M. Loebsack Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:43:03 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delores M. Loebsack Oral History Subject The topic of the resource White Bluffs (Wash.) Description An account of the resource From the CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Life at White Bluffs. Main file with after recording addenda file." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/19/12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2012.045 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb91d48add0fe23c39bb352b573c792a9.mp4 ca56ce24386ee9c7c952c75f97ae1d84 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound CREHST Oral History Project Title: “Seaborg Remarks” Date of interview: May 14, 1994 Location of interview: WSU, Tri-Cities Interviewer: Ron Kathren Interviewed: Glenn Seaborg Transcriber: Robert Clayton Dr. Seaborg was in Richland to give the commencement address for the 1994 graduating class. It was also the 50th anniversary of his first visit to Hanford during WWII. He made these remarks during a reception where he was awarded recognition by several professional societies. (attendee’s gather inside and outside of the WSU, TRI-CITIES reception area.) RON KATHREN: Welcome to you here today at WSU and our community here in Richland. A lot of good Science goes on and these are some of the scientists representing 3 of the local scientific societies: The American Chemical Society, The American Nuclear Society, and the Health Physics Society. In conjunction with those 3 groups the Trans-uranium and Uranium Registry, which are a part of Washington State University, put together this reception and Professor Seaborg agreed to attend graciously along with Mrs. Seaborg and I don’t want to leave Helen out because I notice that her family is much like my family and those of you who know me will understand what means. I have to punch a time clock at home. ALLEN WALTER: She really thinks that she is the brains of the family. (Laughter) RON KATHREN: So I’ll introduce you to these fine people standing here: Allen Walter who is the National President of the American Nuclear Society. Next to him is Jerry Gath. Any errors in the book are Jerry’s fault. (Laughter). Terry Aldridge the local Health Physics Society President, and Jim Campbell the American Chemical Society local Section President. Now these people are heavily involved in all this but the real people who did the real work…I can’t even see from here. There’s one of them, Lynn Harwick, who is the administrative manager for the Registries. Where’s June Markel? She’s hiding somewhere. June Markel put this whole thing together almost single-handedly. And I’d like to thank her publicly. I think that you all appreciated the effort that she put out. A lot of you wanted to buy books. They simply ran out. For those of you who want to buy books at the discount rate there are a bunch of order blanks on the table by the door to the Benitz Library and we’ll take care of getting them off to the publisher. Members of the C-31 Group June has arraigned transportation for you to the next event of the afternoon. But the real thing today is to present Glenn Seaborg something that he really needs. When I was down visiting him I noticed a crack in his wall. (Laughter) Right next to your picture of you and Abraham Lincoln together. (Laughter). Glen this citation reads: Honoring Glenn T. Seaborg for extraordinary lifetime contributions to Science, Education, and the Nation. Presented on the occasion of his 50th anniversary visit to Hanford by an appreciative group of younger colleges. Given in Richland, WA this 14th Day of May, in the year 1994. And it is my pleasure to present that to you (Applause). RON KATHREN: He’s going to tell us about his tie now. (Laughter). SEABORG: Well this is totally unexpected. Thank-you very much. As Ron has indicated and called attention to my tie I might mention its significance. I wear it on occasions like this. It was presented to me. It has the 5 colors of the 5 oxidation states of plutonium. (Laughter). Those of you who know something about the plutonium industry the oxidation states are 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. As Ron has indicated this occasion constitutes well the opportunity for a re-union of the chemists and chemical engineers who worked with me at the metallurgical laboratory and other parts of the project during the war. Actually 50 years ago. In fact May is the 50th anniversary of my first visit to Hanford. These are the people who worked with me in conceiving, producing, and scaling up the chemical processes that were used for the production of plutonium here at Hanford. And we’re going to have a reunion at the home of Fred and Eddrey Albaugh. Eddrey served as my secretary to help me run this group of chemists during the metallurgical laboratory days. And Fred was a classmate of mine at UCLA whom I brought to Chicago. And then he stole Eddrey from me. (Laughter) And they got married. I believe this has been a wonderful occasion to come back here to Hanford and Richland after all of these years. I described in my commencement address last night something about what Hanford and Richland looked like 50 years ago so I won’t go through that again. I’ve been back here a large number of times I would imagine about 10 times since that first visit and watch the place change. It’s still a dynamic place. Of course for another reason now to clean up the mess that we made. I might make a remark in that connection too. We certainly had another agenda then. That was to beat Hitler to the atomic bomb. If we’d have stopped and paid attention to waste disposal and so forth at that time well it would have been impossible. It just would not have been feasible. And I don’t know of a single person who didn’t have in mind that the primary objective was to get this job done. And get it done as soon as possible. Well as I have indicated it’s a nostalgic experience to come back here to Hanford. It coincides with the publication of my Metallurgical Laboratory Journal which was arraigned by Ron Kathren and the work done by Jerry Dopp and his student Gary Benefield. I’m sorry the publisher didn’t have hundreds of copies out here. (Laughter). But hope you’ll all be able to get copies. It’s quite a production job. It’s really only about 1/4 or 1/3 of the journal but I think the most important parts are in there. And included are 670 graphical sketches of the people involved. Now you can imagine the task the problem of getting the material on 670 people. I and Jerry and Ron were on the phone all over the United States. I would get a lead on where somebody was and sometimes it would take several phone calls. Sometimes of course I would learn that the person had died and I would reach the wife or in some cases a child. I encountered a tremendous variation in the ability of the person to respond. I mean after 50 years the youngest would be …let’s say 20 years old almost none were that young but let’s say 20 then most of them would be about 80 years old. And so I had a great variation in the responsiveness of these people. Bearing all the way from not knowing quite who I was to who he was (Laughter) to people like those here today who of course are all right on the ball. Helen was in it from the very beginning. She was Ernest Lawrence’s secretary. He was the director of the laboratory at Berkley, the Radiation Laboratory, and the inventor of the cyclotron. Actually I dictated to Helen in her role as Lawrence’s secretary the reports describing the discovery of plutonium. And the first chemical study of this element. I’d like to say Helen was so efficient as his secretary and taking down these dictations that I began to date her. She doesn’t relate so well to that. I quickly found that she had other attributes as well. So we began to date each other. We had some obstacles to overcome. I was going with somebody and she was going with somebody else. So we straightened that out. I knew from the beginning what my objective was. It only took me one look and I knew what I was going to try for. And I was persistent and little by little we began to go together and so forth. Then when I was called to Chicago after Pearl Harbor when the Manhattan Project or what became the Manhattan Project when the production of plutonium was set up. I knew that I needed to make some arrangement so I made a deal with Helen before I left for Chicago. Well some people would say I proposed to her. She accepted me and then I went to Chicago and came back by arrangement in 6 weeks. To the Bay area to the Radiation Laboratory. And then we took a train down to Los Angeles a night train. By the way in those days in separate berths. (Laughter) Introduced her to my parents and then the next day we took a night train to Nevada. We got off the train at a place called Caliente to get married. We thought. Well Caliente wasn’t the county seat. We tried to get a marriage license and they said well you know you can’t get it here. This is described in the book. RON KATHREN: Yes the book is really a love story. You’ll learn the real reason he used to visit Earnest Lawrence wasn’t to see Earnest Lawrence. (Laughter) SEABORG: Absolutely! I found a lot of reasons to visit Earnest Lawrence. Anyway we Managed, but you’ll have to read this in the book, to find the county seat and hook a ride on a mail truck going 30 miles north, helping to deliver mail along the way, and we finally got married. Actually on the 50th anniversary or a day very close to that we happened to be in Las Vegas, Nevada for the annual meeting of the American Academy of Achievement. So we took time off and drove up to the town where we got married. Found the courthouse and everything. It’s all there. And had a real nostalgic experience. Well I talked longer than I intended to well I turned to Helen to ask her and she says, “Yes!” ask her if I overlooked anything? Well we appreciate you all being here honoring us in this way. I will find a place for this if not next to my picture with Abraham Lincoln then next to my picture with Ann Margaret. (Laughter) (Applause) RON KATHREN: I’d like to thank all my society people from the Trans-Uranium Registry and again June Markel to Susan Young who I neglected before and Lynn Harwick they put it all together and the University for this lovely setting. Thank you all very much. (Applause) There is in fact and I’ve seen it myself and so has Jerry we’ll vouch for its authenticity a picture of Glenn Seaborg standing next to Abraham Lincoln on the wall in his office. And I think you are 2” taller than Abe. But he’s a little younger than that. (Laughter) (Photos taken and people milling about the reception area and campus) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:22:56 Compression Type/rate of compression for moving image file (i.e. MPEG-4) MPEG-4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Seaborg Remarks Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource "Dr. Seaborn was in Richland to give the commencement address for the 1994 graduating class. IT was also the 50th anniversary of his first visit to Hanford during WWII. He made these remarks during a reception where he was awarded recognition by several professional societies." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/14/1994 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8b329b6f934b3b8536a566ded81b4484.mp4 e748db65e99d870e9bd8b9aefca6b830 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shannon L. Smith Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:22:55 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shannon Smith Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Biographic sketch. Living conditions in postwar Richland" Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/10/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2013.024 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6e97bca6faf135e93380ebef64469ac5.mp4 276b8be1d2fe08b22e4e78f5771a35f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Sarah S. Hilaire Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary S. Taylor Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:45:11 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mary and Jim Taylor Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Biography; Sale of Home to Govt.; Growing up; and file mace miners birthing center." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/22/13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2013.2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9cd9a9d3436f875f621bbb9946280978.mp4 c6d7610f2fc639d0d6f286ff59d22d29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed W. F. Walker Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:11:04 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource W. F. Walker Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "Youth, schooling, army; work at 300 & 400 areas as instrument man; standards lab or calibration of instruments; work as inst. [instrument] technician for cladding operations both A1 and N Reactor Fuel." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/17/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2013.019 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F12db5e9c649ed7257e0b516c272d16f9.3gp 1c4fb99bc66977e6d1f52da8f5daa32f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview F. Gary Fetterolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene Wallace Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:17:10 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eugene Wallace Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource From CREHST Oral History Agreement: "how he came to Hanford; work as technician in theoretical physics dept.; patents; first mini0compuyter on Hanford Site." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/10/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2013.016 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0b065cfc3e4a2da9bb08d783a6d1d2e0.mp4 702c9f467a6277c1336d3c0af2daa4d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:24:39 Compression Type/rate of compression for moving image file (i.e. MPEG-4) H264 Director Name (or names) of the person who produced the video Ken Burns Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Watson Warriner - On War, Many Voices Subject The topic of the resource DuPont; Hanford Description An account of the resource A short documentary featuring Watson Warriner, a high-level DuPont employee during the Manhattan Project. From a personal email sent from Warriner to CREHST Curator Connie Estep - "It highlights the astounding construction statistics of HEW, the unusual method used to heat this spread out village [Richland?] and personal episodes involving my friend, the B Reactor's Construction Engineer, Robert Forrest Stewart!" Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WHYY (Television station : Philadelphia, Pa.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available WHYY (Television station : Philadelphia, Pa.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Hanford History Project DOES NOT hold copyright to this resource. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2008.68 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F264f4afd180ffad33d2f2983cea76f78.mp4 3614ee660b3a44a58745ce0b46f887a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Todd Kenning and Connie Estep Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marie White (Hansen) Location The location of the interview CREHST Museum Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: INTERVIEW WITH MARIE HANSON INTERVIEW DATE: 2001 INTERVIEW LOCATION: CRESHT MUSEUM INTERVIEWER: TODD KENNING/CONNIE ESTEP INTERVIEWED: MARIE HANSON TRANSCRIBER: JEFF FORD LENGTH: 26 MINS CONNIE: The government came in and offered how much money again? MARIE: My dad, $1700 dollars. CONNIE: For how many acres? MARIE: 17 Acres and a two bedroom house, well, barn and the whole works. I had 10 acres, nothing on it but irrigation water and they gave me a thousand. TODD: Wow, that wasn’t very much for those days. MARIE: It wasn’t nothing, they were paying us at pre-war prices and we had to go out and buy at wartime prices, they weren’t taking that into consideration, at all. CONNIE: And grandpa used that money and bought property in Kennewick? MARIE: He bought 5 acres in Kennewick for a thousand dollars and didn’t have a thing on it, not even irrigation that you could use; you had to change the pipes and everything. TODD: There wasn’t a house on it? MARIE No, no house, no nothing. TODD: Where did you live then? MARIE: Well we got an extension out here and we stayed in our own house, until he could get one built down there, but like I say, he went right to work here, so he only had weekends down there on the house, him and one of our neighbors. Our neighbor was a carpenter, so he and my dad built it. CONNIE: And why did he decide to work at Hanford? MARIE: Because he was going to get everything back he could after taking his home away from him. CONNIE: And then every year the government came around and offered him a check? MARIE: Offered him $1700 I don’t know how many times and he said if Uncle Sam’s that bad off, take it and give it to him. Then they finally offered him $3,000 and dad said well Uncle Sam must be doing better, I’ll take it. CONNIE: So, he finally decided he’d go ahead and take them up on their offer. MARIE: He decided he’d better take it. TODD: Is the house and the land still in the family MARIE: No, it’s all torn down out there CONNIE: In Kennewick, though grandma still lives in one? MARIE: No, my parents have passed away TODD: The house still there? MARIE: Oh, yeah. I rented it for a long, long time and then I sold it. My health got bad and I couldn’t put up with renters anymore. CONNIE: It’s on Rainier Street in Kennewick MARIE: Yeah TODD: Do you go by every once in a while? PERSON IN BACKGROUND: Oh yeah I think we’ve all lived there once. CONNIE: Now over here where the butcher store used to be, you were telling us a story about the butcher store. MARIE: That’s where they built the cold storage, they all, everybody went together and they put in money and built the cold storage. And there was a deaf man, a deaf-mute and he was in there one day when Mr. Grass, the butcher was going to lock up and he hollered of course to see if there was anybody in there but, the deaf man couldn’t hear it, so he got locked in there. He made all kinds of noise he could and beat on things and in the night I don’t know just when, somebody heard a noise in there and listened to it and decided there was somebody in there so he went down to Mr. Grass’s house and got him to come up and unlock it and sure enough, there was that man. He bowed and scraped and did everything he could to thank him.. He packed meat, Grass had meat in there curing, halves and quarters the deaf man moved the meat from one side to the other to keep warm, to keep from freezing to death. He knew to do that, quite an ordeal for him. CONNIE: Now you told me the community went together, on the ice house, how did it come to be? MARIE: Well everybody had a locker in there you know, I don’t know how the government handled that in the end. I don’t remember hearing anything about that. CONNIE: Before that there were spots out on the river? MARIE: Well that was the personal ones; the Hubbard family had a house, an ice room. They made double walls and filled them with saw dust and in the winter time they cut ice off the river. I remember great big blocks of ice, they cut or sawed the ice off, then all went together and everybody had ice in the summer time; not a whole lot, but a treat, it was a treat, we could make ice cream or something like that. CONNIE: And did you guys go in there and play? MARIE: Yeah CONNIE: Were you suppose to? MARIE: Kids weren’t supposed to, but we snuck away every once and a while and got in there and played and in that sawdust and reach down in that sawdust and find a hunk of ice and rub our hands on it. It was nice and cool in there. It was a no-no. TODD: That was a no- no. MARIE I don’t know if that should go on tape or not. TODD: You go ahead MARIE: Well, I was working the parcel post window and the lobby was full of people, standing in line you know. And here come a woman with a whole bunch of packages went around that line and plunked her packages up on my counter. I said lady the line forms back there, she said you will wait on me. I said lady the line forms back there. She said I’m Mrs. Col. Mathias and you will wait on me. I said I don’t care who you are, the line forms back there and that’s where you’re going to go. She said you’re just as servant of the public and she said you will wait on me. I said, no I won’t, I left the room and got Mr. Pettycord. I told him what was going on and I said you can fire me, but I’m not going to wait on that woman. He came out there and of course he worked her packages, but he told her, don’t ever come in here again and cause trouble with my girls. I’m having a hard enough time running this post office with the help I can get and I don’t want anybody belittling them. TODD: Did she ever do that again? MARIE: I never saw her. I told her I’ve never seen your name on my paycheck yet. Well you’re just a public servant, she said. Regardless, the line forms back there. I don’t know if you want to put that in there or not. TODD: Oh, that’s great; she was the wife of a pretty important person. MARIE: Yes she was, to me she was another customer and I kept saying, the line forms back there, those people were on their lunch hour, most of them, you know, hurried down to the post office to take care of business and then someone pull something like that, it wasn’t right. CONNIE: You worked at the irrigation district too, didn’t you? MARIE: I was working at the irrigation district over here where the art gallery is. Ed Pettycord would walk down the hill everyday and say, Marie you’ve got to come help us, we need help real badly. I said, I’ve got a job here Ed. Ed said but your not busy now, all the irrigation property is gone. He said, come and help us and Mr. Fletcher tried to talk me into staying at the irrigation office. Ed’s pulling me to the post office. I finally felt guilty, I wasn’t working, and I was working just part time at the irrigation office, so I went up to the post office. I got full time and a half. CONNIE: Never got paid for full time? MARIE: Never got paid for full time, no. Course those people working at the post office were just filling in between shifts or something or on their day off. They got paid for every hour they put in. But us that were permanent put in our 60 hours and got paid for 40. GRANDDAUGHTER: Okay grandma tell us about Grandpa Hanson, how long it would take him to get to town to get groceries and what you and Auntie Pauline used to live for. MARIE: Well we were 5 miles out of town, the transportation we had was a horse and wagon. My dad would leave in the early morning, my mom would give him a list a mile long to fill and we would always put candy on there. Every once and a while, he’d forget the candy of course. But mother would make us a batch of divinity, bless her heart. But anyway it would take him from early morning until dark you know, because he wouldn’t hurry the horses, my dad was real good to animals, he wouldn’t hurry the horses, so it took him all day long to drive down and get groceries and come back with our candy. My mother would make us divinity, she, an old hand egg beater to beat those eggs and I look back and think; how in the world did she do it. GRANDDAUGHTER: How old were you when Grandpa Hanson worked for Carton Meat Packing Co? MARIE: I was 3 years old when we came here and he was working for Carston. GRANDDAUGHTER: And what was he doing, helping him….? MARIE: They were running sheep here. They’d bring them down here to pasture in the winter time and lambing and shearing in the spring. He worked for him for a long time, before we moved on to the farm TODD: Did you know any of the Rosecrans family? MARIE: I know the name, but don’t know him. GRANDDAUGHTER: The changes you’ve seen over time, just in Kennewick, from the festivals that used to take place and the houses, you know you told me a story about the people that lived in that house on the corner of Rainier and Kennewick Ave., how far out it was perceived to be from downtown Kennewick MARIE: Oh yeah we were way out in the country when we moved out there on Rainier and 4th Ave. and there was hardly anything between us and town and nothing the other way that would amount to anything, just a couple of farms. My first address there was Route 2 and then they changed it to Larch St., then it finally became 4th Ave., but it was way out in the country when we moved out there. There were no houses between the house I’m living in and the one the folks had built on Rainier. I’m around the corner from them and there was no houses between us, that’s all built up and ah my dad sold his 5 acres in lots. He had it plotted and sold all but he kept 2 lots, that the house was on., platted the rest of it and sold them off in lots. In fact he sold it to man who couldn’t buy the lots. My dad would give a deed to one lot and he’d build a house and sell it and he’d pay my dad off. My dad would give him a deed to another lot and he’d build a house, he built duplexes is what he did and rented them all out. GRANDDAUGHTER: Are those the houses behind grandma and grandpas house? MARIE: Yeah, all those duplexes in there were all grandpa’s land. GRANDAUGHTER: So, what did you do for fun back then grandma, did you go dancing? MARIE: I went dancing. GRNADDDAUGHTER: Where’d you go dancing? MARIE: Even when I worked 60 hours at the post office, I went dancing on Saturday night. I told my mother that’s the one night I’m going to have for me, Saturday night I’m going to go dancing. I got home about 4 in the morning got up and went to Sunday school and church and then I went out to the post office an awful lot of Sunday’s and worked 2 or 3 hours out there to catch up on stuff I was behind on. I did all the book work in the post office, payroll and all that stuff. I went up on Sunday’s a lot times.. TODD: Back to the dancing, where did you go dancing? MARIE: Do you know where Mr. E is now, up on Union and 4th Ave?, there is triangular piece of land there, what did they call it, the Highland Country Club or something, built a club house there and they had dances. TODD: And you’d dance all night long? MARIE: As long as they’d play. I danced every dance too, I’ll have you know and I went home by myself. Oh my golly, I used to drive from North Richland clear down there by myself on Saturday night. One night somebody watched me get in my car and followed me, scared the jiminy out of me, they followed me out, there was quite a few houses built in here by that time, drove around and around those houses thinking I’d lose them but, I couldn’t lose them. I didn’t know a soul that lived in any of them. I was tempted to stop and knock on a door on one that had lights but I thought I hate to do that too. So I finally struck out the bypass highway toward home. I’d speed up and they’d speed up. I’d slow down and they’d slow down, they never tried to pass me or anything that is what I expected, that they’d try to run me off the road and finally I came to the road that turns up to where the Fletchers used to live, Mr. Fletcher was the one I used to work for in the irrigation district and I swung into their place and the car went on by. I sat there for quite a little bit, I knew if Mr. Fletcher came out to investigate he’d be glad I did it. I came back out and got on the bypass highway and went on home I never ever told anybody that happened to me or my folks would have put their foot down boy, they wouldn’t have let me go….. TODD: Did you go dancing the next Saturday night though? Marie: Oh yeah, it didn’t stop me. I was pretty scared though. TODD: But not scared enough to stop dancing? MARIE: No that was the only pleasure I had those days was that Saturday night dance, ‘cause work 10 hours a day you don’t feel like going out until Saturday night, you can dance, you hear the music and you can dance. GRANDDAUGHTER: Although you’ve been married a time or two, grandma. MARIE: I don’t think they want to know about that. GRANDDAUGHTER: No, you were mostly a single mom, raising two children. MARIE: Yes that’s right. I buried two husbands and I divorced two and I made an annulment on one. TODD: Do you remember the big flood in ‘48? MARIE: Yeah TODD: Were you living in Kennewick then? MARIE: Yeah, I was living in Kennewick, but I was working out at the post office 10 hours a day. I didn’t have time to look and see what was going on, but I remember it was real bad. TODD: You worked in the post office in North Richland? MARIE: No, right here in town, we were in this building up on Lee and a, I don’t remember what’s in there now. GRANDDAUGHTER: It’s an attorney, part of the bank building. MARIE: People began to flock in here then they built a bigger building on 9th Street and that’s where we worked from there. CONNIE: Wasn’t there a drug store with a soda fountain or a lunch counter, tell me about that again, who had it? MARIE: Can’t even think of name of it now, can you? CONNIE: That was kind of the place where everybody went, wasn’t it? MARIE: Yeah, that was about the only place to get something to eat, outside of your own home, that little drug store and fountain. CONNIE: And the strawberry festival and grape festival, those were big events? MARIE: Yeah, they were the main attraction before the fair built up; you know the county fair built up…. I’ve seen a lot of changes, since 1918. Sit there and talk for hours, didn’t we, telling her about all the things that took place in my life. GRANDDAUGHTER: I would like you to tell the story about when, how you got to go over to business school and all the time you spent working and going to school. MARIE; Well, my husband died when I was 24 years old, my son was 18 months, no education, no nothing and they hired women in the schools to cook, you know lunches for the kids. I went to the County Commissioner to see if I could get on cooking. I tried to farm, but I raised strawberries, picked two days on them and the crop was gone, no more markets. Everything I tried went that way, so I tried getting on there cooking and Jay Perry was Commissioner at that time and he said Marie you don’t want to be a cook in your life. How about going to Business College or beauty school or something, he said we can help you a little bit. So they gave me $15 a month, for tuition, room and board for me and my son and books, that is what I got. I went to school in Longview and my sister lived in Castle Rock and she took care of my son for me. I gave her $10 dollars a month for board and room, but of course she was pregnant with her first child, so I was doing all the house work, the washing, the ironing and everything and going to school. I worked at the school, worked for my tuition and made it in 6 months. Mr. Fletcher went to my folks and said is Marie ready to go to work because; I’m going to need a secretary in the office. My mother said I think she is. My mother called me right away, so I came home and went right to work for the irrigation office but, it was only part time, but it was, I think they gave me $50 a month, which looked like a million to me at the time. I worked part time until like I said until I went to work for Ed at the post office. GRANDDAUGHTER: Your farming endeavors weren’t all bad, because you had a pretty good mint crop one year. MARIE: Yeah, the year I went to Business College in Longview, I had planted; I forget what it was an acre or two of peppermint. I tried to weed it and keep it clean and do other things too and I, the weeds got pretty high on it, but I went over there and worked and pulled some weeds and there was a whole bunch of good peppermint down amongst those weeds. My dad didn’t believe it. I irrigated it and took care of it. My dad said you can’t get anybody to process it with all those weeds. I said there’s a lot of peppermint there I don’t care; there’s a lot of peppermint in there. So, my dad went and talked to his neighbor who had a still or what ever you call it to process the peppermint, get the oil out of it. He came over and looked and said there’s not much oil in there, it’s mostly weeds in there, I’ll have to charge you by the wagon load, he said I can’t charge you by the pound like I do everybody else, pound of mint oil. So he charged me by the wagon load. He started running it and the oil just poured out of it. I got $400, almost $500 out of my mint oil that fall, that was a God send I’ll tell you. But that was the end of my experience with peppermint or anything else. The government took it after that, that was in ‘41 and in ‘42 we got our notices to be out in 30 days, so that was the end of my farming. And then I went to work in the insurance business. I knew the lady that was working for Mr. Campbell at Farmer‘s Insurance. She called me at 10 o’clock one night, she said Marie I need help awful bad, can you come down and help me for a week or two. I said, well I won’t work 8 hours but I’ll work 7, cause Amber’s mother was a baby then. So, I went down and helped her and It turned into a full time job and finally I worked 16 years as a secretary for the agents and I got my own license, then I was an insurance agent for 16 years when I retired. CONNIE: What year did you start helping her out? MARIE: ’56, no ’52 I believe it was. CONNIE: So you worked at the KID, then you worked at the post office, then you worked where? MARIE: Farmer’s Insurance CONNIE: Then where? MARIE: Well, I worked for Judge Winkenorder, that Kennewick kangaroo court, we used to call it. He called me one night and said he needed a secretary, could I work part time? I said sure. My mother took care of Amber’s mother and I worked for him 2 or 3 years and then Judge Mooreback, you’ve heard of him?, he’s still around. TODD: No MARIE: He a, cause Judge Winkenorder had already quit and Mooreback took over. He started laying down the law to me, told me I couldn’t do this and I couldn’t do that and I run out of stamps, I’d have to go take my money and buy stamps and ask him for my money back, it went on like this. One day I forget now what he did, but he did something that didn’t set with me and I just picked up my purse and things and said I’m through. He said you can’t quit I’m going to put you to work in my office all day long. I said oh no your not. He said well you can’t quit. I said just watch me big boy. I said I can quit any time I feel like it and I feel like it right now GRANDAUGHTER: Why’d they call it kangaroo court? MARIE; because that’s what it was TODD: That’s funny, that’s a new one. MARIE: You didn’t know I worked for Judge Winkenorder, oh yes I used to go out with him when he’d perform marriages and take notes, brides dresses and stuff you know. Oh yeah, that was fun. Well I think they’re getting a lot of stuff they’re not interested in. The End Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:25:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marie Hansen (White) Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource From information sheet packaged with oral history: "Born 1914 Marie Hansen, father Peter O. Hanses. Moved to North Richland in 1918. She told a couple stories after you left, Todd. Once concerned her father's payment from the condemnation. She mentioned he received $1700 for 17 aces. Then the feds came around each year for several years with more money. Once or twice they brought checks for $1700 again and her father told them to send the money back the feds needed it worse than he did. The last time they came they brought a check for around $3000. Her father said the feds must be doing better and he kept that check! She also told a story about a deaf man getting locked into a cold storage building because he couldn't hear the owner calling out that he was locking up." Marie White (Hansen) is interviewed about her childhood in Richland, before it was taken as part of the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/20/2000 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2010.052.03 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc626c342bd8368bbc10c4a6a932acf91.mp4 90d91ae66d1d0e503277adb6c63169f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Todd Kenning/Connie Estep Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Viola Magnuson Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: INTERVIEW WITH VIOLA MAGNUSON INTERVIEW DATE: 2001 INTERVIEW LOCATION: UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: TODD KENNING/ CONNIE ESTEP INTERVIEWED: VIOLA MAGNUS0N TRANSCRIBER: JEFF FORD LENGTH: 44 MINS CONNIE; So, What year were you married? VIOLA: 1930, August 3, 1930. That’s a long time ago, it was before the war. (Responses to looking at a pictures), smiles and says, called the lady with a horse. Laughs again and says, Oh, I have a lot of memories. That was Ray and me and Suzy and Ray’s parents. TODD: Do you have a picture of Suzy, singing? VIOLA: Yea, this was taken while Ray was in Panama. V IOLA: It was 25 below zero. CONNIE: Oh, to get you guys and drive you out? VIOLA: That was in the Hanford News. Ray and I and Suzy, that was Greggs. CONNIE: (Reaching for the pictures) How about if I take these. VIOLA: Kennewick. CONNIE: Oh, that was Kennewick; you had already just left Hanford. Right around that time? VIOLA: That’s when we went to the B house, on 1425 Mc Phearson, Mc Phearson. That’s where our hall, Hoover roses, he had put a little picket fence, oh I had flowers all over. And you should see Suzy with her doll. CONNIE: Oh, yeah. VIOLA: And her pearls, she was just so pretty. CONNIE: Oh yeah, aren’t they gorgeous, those are some roses. VIOLA: Oh, That’s my father-in-law and mother-in-law, a very wonderful cook, believe me. She was, he was a carpenter, he could climb a tree, so he could go hunting anytime he wanted to, an our trailer was long there was a bed at one end and then the dinette table, Ray and I slept, we had to put down the table on the two settees, then we put the cushions on top of that and that’s where Ray and I slept on and Suzy and Joanie slept on the bed at one end, so we didn’t have to make the bed for them but, for us we had to put down the table CONNIE: And you had no, did you have a sink? VIOLA: What? CONNIE: Did you have a sink, you didn’t have any water in the trailer, you had to carry the water in? VIOLA: Yes, finally we did, Ray had a friend that was a plumber and he put a line from where it started. See each trailer had one like that, no not each trailer, say four families would use it and the other ladies got jealous what do you have to do to get your, and she looked at me, well I don’t know Ray did it. (Laughing she said, "What do you have to do, to get water in your trailer.") CONNIE: So and then you used the bathhouse for your bathroom? VIOLA: Uh huh, we had to go… see there was a bathhouse, well there was a bathhouse not as far as here to that neighbor, but half that way. CONNIE: For how many trailers, maybe? VIOLA: Oh, quite a few, because it was a big bathhouse, a lot of stalls for the showers and a lot of sinks to wash-up. CONNIE: Sinks to wash your dishes in? VIOLA: Oh no, we had to wash our dishes in our trailers. CONNIE: Oh. VIOLA: I had a little sink, I washed my dishes there. No the bathhouses were just to keep clean, wash your hair, take a shower. CONNIE: And they had hot water? VIOLA: Oh yeah, we had plenty of hot water and they had the soap there too. And there was ladies that would come every day, every morning and clean that bathhouse, every day without fail; everything was spic-n-span. Yeah, they took good care of us. CONNIE: Well that’s good, VIOLA: And even have shows, for the entertainment at night, they had a big, oh, well… they had shows on Saturday and on Sunday’s we had church in that building. But they tried everything to keep the people there CONNIE: And the fences, people put up their own fences, when they got there? VIOLA: Ah huh, Ray put up, got some pickets and put it around our lot. But they didn’t stop Suzy from getting out, that’s the reason he had me to, but she‘d climb that picket fence. And I kept little “farmerette’s” on her, I didn’t put her in dresses, because there was too much sand and, she’d climb that fence and when she’d come down she’d get caught on her seat and tear her pants. She’d run to the neighbors, Mrs. Fitz, she was crazy about a lady there, because she made such a fuss over her, and her name was Mrs. Fritz and she called her Mrs. Fitz. Remember that Suzy? SUZY: No VIOLA: Boy you liked her and she liked you. CONNIE: Now when did you move, when did you get to Hanford with your trailer? VIOLA: On September the 17th. CONNIE: 1944? VIOLA: Ah huh, 1943. CONNIE: And that’s when you got to Hanford with your trailer? VIOLA: Ah huh CONNIE: And how big was your trailer? VIOLA: 16 footer on the outside, that was with the trailer hitch, you didn’t see how little it was inside but, 14 feet, we stayed in that for18 months, then we had to move. When he was, when we were at Hanford, Ray was on construction and before we could get a house, he had to be on office construction. So then it was in August when we came back from Kennewick. CONNIE: Did they have to do clearance, is that why he had to leave? So, he finished construction? VIOLA: Everybody had to move out of that… CONNIE; And you said you had to leave your trailer there? VIOLA: No, we had to move it, but we had to put it in a fenced yard, all trailers were there, but it didn’t stop people from snitching, because they took my little sink, my little Monroe sink out of my trailer, while it was in that building. CONNIE: So they had them in a storage yard, everybody stored them there? VIOLA: There was a tall fence around it, we had to go to the guards to get a permit when we wanted to go get something from our trailer, but somebody came in ours… CONNIE: And how long was your trailer in the storage area before you could get it back? VIOLA: We could, well when we moved from there to Richland, we could… we got it. CONNIE: So it was a few months? VIOLA: Yeah, but it was long enough, cause Ray had a lot things, he had bought extra tires, a lot of tools. Oh boy, it took us 13 days to come from Hanford, no from Richland, no from Shaeffer, to Hanford because we could just make a few miles a day, because the trailer was so full. I had a lot of canned stuff. I canned raspberries, and made jam, gooseberry jam and all that stuff from the country and I had that under the settees, that was too heavy. CONNIE: 13 days was from Missouri…, Michigan? VIOLA: Ah huh, could just do about 100 miles a day. \CONNIE: And was that driving that Model A, Ford? VIOLA: No, it was a Chevrolet, an old second-hand Chevrolet, but you couldn’t get new cars then, but it was pretty good, but it was jammed. CONNIE: Was it over-heating…. Was the car over-heating? VIOLA: Oh yes, in Montana we had to stop, we kept rocks in the car, I had at run out and put the rocks behind the wheel because the car was too heavy, because it would keep on backing up, it was by Helena, you know it was too steep and that was my job. We had pictures in Montana; you didn’t see those, did you. CONNIE: I didn’t look through all of them, I didn’t have the time. VIOLA: I know Suzy got scared from a snake, up one of those hills. She was just so scared, she couldn’t move. She saw a snake, I didn’t see it because I wasn’t with Suzy and she was walking with Ray, she was so scared. I know I would be scared, too. CONNIE: Then after your husband got the security clearance, you moved back to Richland? VIOLA: Yeah, we got a pre-fab and we lived there for 5 years, until we moved into our B house on May 9, 1950. CONNIE: Did you sell your trailer then? VIOLA: Ray made a, he just took the wheels and axle and he made a bigger trailer, cause we bought some land across the river, it was those lots… it was lot 16 was our trailer. Yeah he farmed, planted wheat and alfalfa, that’s what we raised. CONNIE: And that’s while he was working at Hanford, he was farming while he was working at Hanford? VIOLA: No, after we moved into the pre-fab, we bought that. CONNIE: But he was still working out on the site, too. VIOLA: Yeah and I would go and move the pipes with him. We’d take each end of the pipes, because we had to irrigate. Everday, I don’t know how he did it, work and when he was on swing, he just worked the two shifts, days and swing. But, when he was on swing, we’d go early in the morning; he had to be at work by 3 o’clock. CONNIE: What did he do, do you know? VIOLA: He was a glazer, he cut glass for the buses and for the cars, company cars and he was a mechanic, so he was doing two things, so he was busy. CONNIE; Can you tell me a little about the bathhouse, do you remember how many shower stalls were in those? VIOLA: Oh, they must have had 6 or 7, because they were a big bathhouse, there was one at each end of our, where the people lived, so they’d come this way and they’d come this way. CONNIE: Then you had a whole line-up of bathroom sinks? VIOLA: Well ladies do that, we didn’t have to bother with that, but before they had those bathhouses, they had in the temporary camp, when we first got there, we didn’t have bathhouses. We had to wash up in ours trailers, because all that they had there, toilets with long buildings, with a lot of holes just no…. CONNIE: Outhouses? VIOLA: No, no bathhouses and colored guys would come and clean those, take those tins that were under those toilets holes and they’d take those out and dump that. I don’t know where they went and dumped it, but I was always scared that they’d be there, that they’d come while I was in there, but that wasn’t very long. The temporary camp wasn’t very long, while they built the bathhouses, when we had the bathhouses that was nice. (I’ll bet) But we had to stay in our trailer then, too, so we were a couple of months in. CONNIE: When you were out at the trailer camp, did they have buses to take you into town, during the day, if you wanted to go shopping and take the kids in? VIOLA: Yeah, but I never did, I never took those buses, but when we were in the pre-fab the bus would come right on the corner from in front of the house, from our house. But I never did, because if I wanted the car, Ray would leave the car for me and I could go to the grocery store and on week-ends we would go to Yakima, just go there to shop because there was nothing in Rich… at Hanford for clothing or anything like that. There was a grocery store and you had to wait in line for that and that’s when we had those stamps, you were not old enough for that to remember. CONNIE: The ration stamps. VIOLA: Yeah, we had those books of stamps, each one in the family had those books of stamps, even Suzy. CONNIE: In the photo they show that they put roofs over those trailers. VIOLA: Yes, they did because it got so hot. CONNIE: How long did it take them to put the roofs over, do you remember? VIOLA: Shortly, after we were there, they put a roof over the trailer, it didn’t touch the trailer. CONNIE: Do you know what that roof was made of, were they metal or wood? VIOLA: I imagine it was plywood and some kind of roofing or something I wouldn’t know, 'cause I didn’t climb up there. CONNIE: Did you watch them build those roofs? VIOLA No, no I didn’t because I was busy. Joanie would go to school, see she was 9 years old and she’d do to school early in the morning and she’d be home by noon, so that worked alright for me 'cause she’d watch her while I went to the store. I wasn’t too far from the store, I’d go kiddy-corner of lots and everything. And one time I got… there was a big dog and I didn’t see him and I was close to that yard and he caught my arm, a my coat, jumped at me and tore my coat. Boy he scared me to death. CONNIE: They didn’t have any rules about not having dogs there, you could have dogs in the trailer camp? VIOLA; Yeah but, he was chained, fortunately, but he could just reach me. I was close to the fence that there by him and I didn’t know the dog was there, he didn’t bark or nothing. He just pounced on me. CONNIE: Did you guys have a dog? VIOLA: No, we had a dog back home in Schaeffer, but we didn’t take it with us. Ray left it with a friend, 'cause we couldn’t have that. We were crowded enough in the trailer. And we lived there, let’s see….Ray was 18 months in Panama, but we lived I the… we wintered in our trailer over Christmas. I know, 'cause we had our tree outside on top of an oil barrel. CONNIE: The Christmas tree outside? VIOLA: Yeah, it was windy, it was pretty good our bulbs stayed on the tree. I still have some of those bulbs, clear glass, they weren’t very fancy. My trimmings were back in Michigan, never dreamed of taking them with me. So we had to buy what we could, you could look at our tree through the window. TODD: It was pretty tough livin there in the trailer park. Did you ever think about leaving… did you ever think about just packing up and leaving, out of there? VIOLA: Well when you have to, you have to and Maury didn’t want to come back to Richland, because he didn’t like the food in the boarding house. So, he had me, we got it and I cooked on a little two-burner hot plate. I had an old kerosene stove, but the darn thing would catch on fire. I was afraid I would burn the trailer., so there was a man next door and he had an extra hot-plate, so I cooked on a 2 burner hot-plate, electric so that was a lot better. We managed. TODD: Did you ever think about just packing up and leaving Hanford?, going back, going back to Michigan, did you ever think about just… VIOLA: No. TODD: Wasn’t the dust pretty bad?, VIOLA: No, I had my two kids and I never dreamed of leaving my husband. TODD: Oh no, I mean the whole family leaving. VIOLA: Oh, well it was Ray’s work. I had to let him do what he wanted, because he was earning a living, so I just went along with him and I know she liked it there, because she was everybody’s pet. TODD: Yeah, she told me one story about singing. VIOLA: She was friends with everybody. TODD: Was the dust pretty bad there? VIOLA: Oh honestly, if you’d go to the store or some place and leave your windows open, you’d come back and it was just like the sand drifted in the hills like. Finally, I had to get a vacuum cleaner, one of those hand ones, so I could get the sand out of the windows and all over. CONNIE: Well a lot of people decided enough sand is enough and just packed those trailers and went home. VIOLA: I know but we stuck it. TODD: Did you see many people leave? VIOLA: No, I was too busy. I saw quite a few big trailers leave, but my neighbors stuck too. There was a young women, that lived next door to us, she had a homemade trailer. Not that they built, but they bought and they had three little girls, one right after the other and they stayed in that little trailer and they didn’t, we got a Buns burner for heat and they bought our little, …that trailer we bought , that we lived in had a kind of a little, it was a cute little stove, but you had to use wood and at night it would be cold, so Ray got an oil burner and that would keep us warm all night. We didn’t have to fill it every day. I think it held 5 gallons. TODD: Is that what’s out in the garage? VIOLA: Uh huh. TODD: It’s out in the garage. VIOLA: It was a nice one, we bought it from…, the man next door he knew where to…, we wouldn’t have known where to get it, but he was from Seattle and he said we could get one of those oil burners from Seattle and a big truck brought it in no time to our trailer and that just worked fine. CONNIE; I”LL bet that was nice. VIOLA: Oh, but I did like the little, because it was so cute but the wood wouldn’t last no time. And you couldn’t get it was, it would burn so fast. But that,.. She, that girl with the three little girls, she used it and she cooked on that stove, so she was worse off than me. My kids were older anyway and I had a two-burner hot plate. TODD: When did you realize what kind of work was going on at Hanford? VIOLA: Well we really didn’t know, but everybody was saying we were making toilet paper. (laughter) Kids after school, the teacher was talking about, she says I know, they make toilet paper, because her father would bring toilet paper in his dinner bucket. TODD: (More laughter) have you heard that before, Connie? CONNIE; No, hadn’t heard that one. VIOLA: No, nobody knew. TODD; Did your husband have any idea of what was going on? VIOLA: If he did, he never mentioned it. No, they were told to keep their mouths shut. But it was really when Truman said, he decided to use the atomic bomb on Japan. That was pretty good, then the war ended. But why did they, Pearl Harbor, they came and bombed Pearl Harbor, the Japanese, why did they do that?, they snuck there. Oh boy lots happened we didn’t know. When we lived in the trailer, you don’t remember that? TODD: No, I don’t remember coming out here, living at Hanford. VIOLA: Well I know you didn’t like to be in the trailer, you went wild when we’d go the store. You didn’t care if you could see us or not. I even got a little harness to put around her, so she wouldn’t run away. She just threw herself on the floor and she wouldn’t walk. So I, it didn’t help, so I had to carry her. (laughter) She had a mind of her own. CONNIE: The second kid always does. VIOLA: It was an experience, but I was glad to get in the pre-fab. ,,,,, And I made some pretty curtains, I had gone to Walla Walla and got some nice drapes to make, 'cause we had those big windows…four windows in the front and the side windows, those short windows, so I made, I made the curtains and they were so pretty. Did you find them in the basement? SUZY: I think I have the drapes downstairs. VIOLA: They were there, weren’t they? TODD: Kind of blue and pink. VIOLA: Big flowers, really pretty, lovely material. I bought 10 yards of material to make that. CONNIE: I’m surprised that there not so faded that you couldn’t tell if they were. VIOLA: They were heavy, so I didn’t have any shade or anything like that, but I could close those drapes. We had privacy and they looked so pretty. Everybody who came, look so cozy. C ONNIE: You must have felt like you had a mansion after living in a tiny trailer and moving into the two bedroom pre-fab. VIOLA: The pre-fab was two bedrooms, bedroom for the girls and a bedroom for us. We had twin beds in our bedroom and we just slept in one bed. One twin bed and the other was a spare. Ray was small and I was small. But their was a full size bed where the girls were sleeping, so they had a full size bed, in their bedroom and a closet. I had to put a drape, a curtain in their closet because there were no doors in the closets. But when we got to the B house, there were nice closets. (looking at some old drapes) See that’s heavy material. I don’t know they used to be brighter, the background used to be more tan. TODD: So those are over 50 years old then, aren’t they? VIOLA: Yeah, over that. CONNIE: I’m amazed, you had these up more than 5 years in the pre-fab?, you had these up for 5 years and they aren’t more rotted than that. VIOLA: And I had never made curtains before. CONNIE: And did you put these up in the B house also, (huh), did you put these up in the B house anywhere? VIOLA: No, I had shades for the B house and curtains, drapes. Do you think the material was nice? CONNIE: Yeah, I’m looking and if it’s not rotted, no. VIOLA: And you couldn’t see through, you had privacy. Well I used those 5 years, 'cause till I got these, I had sheets in the window, I put sheets. …. Milk, stand in your line for your vegetables, so you had to stand in line a lot. I’d put Suzy to bed CONNIE: But the post office was the worst one. VIOLA: I’d leave right after Joanie would come home, I’d put Suzy to bed or sometimes I’d put her before she came from school and she’d stay while she’d sleep and I’d come home sometimes after Ray came home, from work. That’s how long it would take for standing in line. But, I had the groceries. TODD: What time did Ray get home from work? VIOLA: I must have been after 6. TODD: So, you’d stand in line for more than 6 hours…,sometimes? VIOLA: Just about, 'cause I’d leave as soon as Suzy, eh Joanie would come home. See she went to school just a half a day, she came home at noon. CONNIE: Why was the post office line so bad to wait in? VIOLA: I don’t know, but the M and N was the longest line, sometimes you didn’t know where it started. No…. and sometime I had, like Ray, he needed a tool, he’d order it and then when it would come I’d have to go to the post office and pay for it before we could get it. I remember it was just a little thing like this, but he needed that little tool So I went, it know it was 5 dollars for that little tool, I don’t know what it was for, but I had to wait in line for that tool. So I had to have a lot of patience. TODD: Oh boy, that’s a lot of waiting in line, people don’t like to wait in line for 2 minutes in a grocery store now, they get upset if they have to wait. VIOLA: Yeah but I knew I had to. TODD: You didn’t have any choice. VIOLA: No and Ray needed that tool, he wouldn’t ordered it, if he didn’t need it. CONNIE: Suzy said they would inspect the cars when you would leave. VIOLA: Every time went, we wanted to go to Kennewick or Pasco, they’d have examined everything and when we’d come back, the same thing. CONNIE: So they’d open the trunk? VIOLA: Oh, yes. CONNIE: Did you have to get out of the car while they looked in it? VIOLA: Uhuh, yeah they examined everything. And every time say we wanted to go to White Bluffs to go the ice cream parlor, they had a ice cream parlor, and on Sunday’s we liked to go there and she liked her milk shakes. I know she always did and I did too, we all did. It was a place to enjoy. And we had to have a permit for that, to go to White Bluffs. CONNIE: So, did they keep that ice cream store in White Bluffs, after you were in the pre-fab? VIOLA: Let’s see, for a while, we used to like to go there, but then we didn’t have to have a permit, see we weren’t at Hanford any more, we were in a pre-fab. No I don’t think we, I think they moved away. I don’t think we went there after we moved in our pre-fab. But while we were at Hanford in our trailer that was our, we looked forward to that, every Sunday we looked forward to that. Yup, that was a treat. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:40:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Viola Magnuson Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An interview with Viola Magnuson about relocating to Hanford in 1943 and living in a trailer in the Hanford Construction Camp trailer camp. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / T.2010.052.02 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdf53af79d7672ec05786669522e8fb9a.mp4 95bca4dd9f7326eaf51dba9539cfb722 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Terry Andre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Buckingham, Tom Clement, Joan Sherwood, Margaret Fortune, Phyllis Granquist, Paul Beardsley Location The location of the interview CREHST Museum Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: ABC HOUSES PANEL INTERVIEW DATE: MARCH 23, 1999 INTERVIEW LOCATION: CREHST MUSEUM INTERVIEWER: TERRY ANDRE INTERVIEWED: STEVE BUCKINGHAM, TOM CLEMENT, JOAN SHERWOOD, MARGARET FORTUNE, PHYLLIS GRANQUIST, PAUL BEARDSLEY TRANSCRIBER: JUDY SIMPSON LENGTH: 57.34 MIN. TERRY: My name is Terry Andre; I am the Education Coordinator here at CREHST. We have a number of different education programs; many of them geared toward children and some of them for all ages or family. Tonight’s program; we have some very special people here; many of whom volunteer for the Museum. What we will be talking about tonight “What it was like living in the Dust”. I know we think; we have dust, but you might hear some stories that there was dust and then again there is dust. What I would like to do is have our group here introduce themselves; starting with you (Steve Buckingham) and going around. If you could introduce yourself and what letter house you did live in or currently living in and what year you first moved into one of those houses. I would appreciate it. STEVE: My name is Steve Buckingham; I first lived in the dormitories’. Then when we got married we moved into a “B” House, and then we moved to Kennewick. (Group and audience are laughing) UNKNOWN: So you bought a “B” House? TOM: I am Tom Clement; When DuPont transferred me here, why I wasn’t married. They gave me enough gas stamps to drive out here from Ohio; I had some of them left over so I took a vacation in June and went up to “Lazy F Ranch” up in Ellensburg and there I met my wife in Seattle. We got married in August; we moved into a “B” House in December; we took the first one we could get. We stayed there until after the War; our oldest son, Tom, was born there; then we moved out to Kennewick and we bought a farm out there; moved out there. It got so it took an hour to get to Richland after the, this is after the war, and the construction had started at Hanford again. It took an hour to get to work so it took two hours one-way. So that is when we moved back in where we are now in a “Q” House; we have lived in a “Q“ House ever since they were built; right across from Chief Joseph‘s. It has been a very interesting situation I think. JOAN: I am Joan Sherwood; my husband came out here in December of “55”and came back to Schenectady, New York in April to get married. So we came here as honeymooners to Richland; that was in 1956. We lived in a Prefab; a 3 bedroom Prefab for 2 years and then bought a Ranch, a “Y”; lived in that house until 1965. MARGARET: I am Margaret Fortune, and we washed in on the Flood of 1948. We live in a trailer for a little while because we could not get a house at all. Then we had a 3 bedroom Prefab and we live there for awhile; then moved into a “C” House when they were built. Then when they sold the houses they would not sell us half of it; well we said “Okay we will find something else so we bought a “V” House; a 3 bedroom Precut; we lived in it until we built our present home in 1963.” I taught school, at the John Ball School, out in North Richland; course a lot of you might know it as (inaudible). I haven’t done anything but taught school; it was a Hutment School. We’ll talk about that. PAUL: I’m Paul Beardsley; I arrived here on the on the 29th day of December, 1943. I spent the night in what was called transient’s quarters at that time. I was just telling this lady (Phyllis) that; that one thing that was rather unique about that was that they opened that Hotel for occupation on the 24th of December of 1943 and we got in on the 29th of December; the labels were still stuck on all of the blankets, the sheets, and everything else. I was assigned to the patrol group; since I came from a DuPont plant in Oklahoma as an instructor. I had to spend my 2 weeks of time in Hanford to get oriented about what was going on; didn’t find out very much, but found out a little bit. So when I came here; when I was transferred back to Richland. I was not eligible for a house until November of “44”. I got a 3 bedroom Prefab up on the corner of Williams and Wright. Where the Spalding School sets that was where the railroad was that went out to the plant. After that, after my son had small pox and so forth; I got drafted in April. So I had to leave so we moved back to Okalahoma City. I went in the Navy; I was in the Navy for a little over nine months; got out on the basis of having three children. One, I had two when I left here and one waiting to come; when the third one came well that was an automatic “out of the service” as far as the Navy was concerned. So I got out of the Navy and I called out here and talked to them and they said, “Come back”; you can have your job back. I had just been elevated to a Lieutenant just before I got notice that I was going to have to go into to the service. I came back at the same rate that I was before I left. I got an “A” House; I was in that “A” House for about 18 months. My wife had an accident; broke one of her feet and leg; so at that time they were building the Ranch Houses; so I called upon because I had three children and had another one on the way, the fourth one, the only fruit picker that is with them, with the family. I got the “Z” House, and the Ranch Houses, those are a 4 bedroom, Ranch. It has been altered to the fact that there are only 2 bedrooms in it now. So I have been here ever since. PHYLLIS: My name is Phyllis Granquist came to Richland very large with child in 1947. We had an “A” House waiting for us; which always reminded me of a Monopoly Hotel. I am still in the “A” House; still climbing up those 13 stairs on the one side; I sort of live half way on the other side too; since I had a sewing alteration sort of business, on the other side which gave me room to expand. I am still in that darn old “A” House. TERRY: Now how many of these houses had lawns already or how many people had to plant their lawns? TOM: No lawn we had to plant it. PHYLLIS: No lawn. TOM: Had to plant it. PAUL: When I moved to the Ranch House there wasn’t anything but dirt… TOM: That’s right. PAUL: because that was the first of the Ranch Houses that was occupied; I think it was in March of “40”; tell me, PHYLLIS: In “43”? PAUL: No, No, No, No, No, it was not until “47” or “48“I think. PHYLLIS: The Ranch House? PAUL: Yes, the Ranch House “48”. PHYLLIS: We could get the book. It will be in the book. PAUL: She was talking about dust. STEVE: You know they painted the houses; they were painting the outside of the houses during a dust storm one time; our houses are dust colored. There were three, or you had your choice of four. I think you had your choice of four colors; green, blue… (The sentence is inaudible). TOM: (inaudible) PAUL: Yeah. Yeah. STEVE: Oh that didn’t carry good… and beige. TERRY: So you could pick the inside colors? STEVE: Yeah, you get your house painted every 3 years. TOM: Yes PAUL: The outside of your house that was another subject… The inside you could almost; at least they gave you a selection to choose from. TERRY: Was it red? PHYLLIS: Oh yeah, it was the outside a red color. PAUL: They gave you a selection to choose from. TERRY: Was it red (houses)? PHYLLIS: It was rust…brown…ah….color. STEVE: Bargain paint color. TERRY: That was a bargain color, okay. MARGARET: If you lived in a Prefab or sometimes precut sometimes you had a peach tree or some kind of fruit tree on the premises. PHYLLIS: Oh yeah, good or fruit trees. We got the Chinese Elm. JOAN: We had a prune tree (inaudible- possibly out on our Prefab). TERRY: What about the Prefabs were any of you in them when they had the flat roofs? GROUP: All answered, “They all had flat roofs”. TERRY: How long did the flat roofs last? PAUL: Until they sold them. TERRY: Really that long? Oh. PHYLLIS: (Inaudible) I watched them go out, two of them around my area. PAUL: I was not sure if they were done then or not. STEVE: The hot water tank used to be right in the kitchen; there was hardly any room in the kitchen; the hot water tank took-up about half of it. Then when they put the pitch roof on they put the hot water tank up in that new attic; it leaked. PHYLLIS: Yeah, and then they built a little thing to get into the attic, but you had to have a ladder to climb up on the outside. STEVE: When the wind blew. PHYLLIS: If the water tank leaked you were in real trouble. TERRY: How would you ever get the water tank out? PHYLLIS: Who cares? GROUP: Laughing. I don’t know. PHYLLIS: Leave it there and find a place for it downstairs. PAUL: I found out that a hot water tank belongs on the ground floor not the…not up in the attic. I had one that leaked. TERRY: The movie I was running earlier, “Termination Winds” they were talking about a night coming home from work and going into the wrong house. Is this a true story? STEVE: Well it happened to me indirectly; I was single at the time and I was dating a young lady; she lived in an “A” House; up in one of those little cul-de-sacs’ off of Sayers‘. I took her after the dance; I took her home and dropped her off in front of the house. She got clear upstairs before she realized; she was in the wrong house; somebody was snoring; she said, “Nobody in their house snored”. You know Richland was a very safe town; we never locked the doors. There was absolutely no crime in Richland. Why would you lock your doors? TOM: That wasn’t on Black Court, was it? STEVE: Well that was almost 50 years ago. PHYLLIS: Someone came into your house? TOM: No, I don‘t know. (Laughing) STEVE: The houses were all decorated the same and all the same furniture. TERRY: So the government really did provide the furniture? GROUP: All answered yes. STEVE: Yes everything was furnished. PHYLLIS: I still have a lot of it. STEVE: Even the light bulbs. PAUL: Heywood Wakefield, I think was the furniture. It was good furniture; very good furniture. Yeah. STEVE: It was Maple; Maple furniture. We still have some. PAUL: There is still a lot of it around. TOM: Oh yeah. TERRY: Now you mentioned too, about the light bulb. STEVE: Yeah the light bulbs were furnished. PHYLLIS: And window shades. UNKNOWN: And the coal was furnished. PHYLLIS: You would go down to; you know where the Public Health is now, that was the storage or something; that is where you went in. You really had to talk to those people in there to get new window shades. They were just stingy about it. Then the kind you had to wind-up with a fork you know; then you would let go and whish; oh they were dangerous. PAUL: I just noticed in the paper, I believe it was today or yesterdays’, this guy Challises that had shot-up old Bill up there (inaudible) his father ran the shop where you could get your furniture. That was in the building where City Hall sits now; now sits. From the corner of what is that Lee? PHYLLIS: Jadwin. PAUL: Jadwin and what is that? PHYLLIS: Swift. PAUL: Swift, yeah right. I aught to know where they are, but I can’t do it. STEVE: Then the other joy was the furnace. GROUP: Oh yes! STEVE: In the “O’s” and “A’s” and “B’s” and all those houses. PHYLLIS: I still got that big thing you stuck out there and made that terrible noise; that shook the clunkers down. I hung on to it. TERRY: I have no idea what you are talking about. STEVE: They were big old natural draft coal furnaces; big huge things. Coal was furnished you know. When you needed a ton of coal you just called the tenet service and they would deliver a ton of coal. In the winter time; you know you would try to bank fires so it would last all night. Enviably that dam furnace would blowup. PHYLLIS: Oh, I remember that. STEVE: The coal gas would accumulate and it would ignite and blow the door off the furnace. The house would fill full of smoke. PHYLLIS: When they delivered that coal; you really never new when they were coming. They would just come and drive-up; they would open that little window, because they apparently knew which window to open, it would be awful if they… That coal rumbling in and be all sooty and awful. TERRY: What about the Prefabs? STEVE: The Prefabs were electric heat. JOAN: They were 220 heaters and you could plug them in any place. MARGARET: We had a young couple that lived right across the street from us and lived in a 1 bedroom Prefab. She was in the habit of running out to hang her things on the line and every time she’d go out the door would lock behind her. So she would come over to our house to call downtown; they would come to open the door for her. That happened about every week; I think. I told her, “Put a key outdoors some place so you do not have to call”; I guess they finally got tired of it. She did do it. STEVE: In the wintertime, in the morning, people would be firing up the furnace to get up; get that old furnace up. There would be a black haze over town. When our baby arrived we tried to hang diapers; they didn’t have dryers in those days; they could dry over the furnace or hang them up. We had the dingiest diapers in town; black soot over everything. That was in addition to the dust. TOM: They gave you a clothes line though. GROUP: All agreeing nodding their heads. UNKNOWN: I remember the close line up side down. GROUP: Every one is agreeing with the last statement. PAUL: I can remember when I was living up there in the Prefabs. The only telephones that were available to the people who were somebody; I mean they were the top dogs; they had telephones; but the rest of us had to go down the street to a telephone pole to use a phone. GROUP: All agreeing and nodding their heads. TOM: I remember that. PAUL: So we get notice from the airport out here; I happened to be stupid like most men can be stupid once in awhile. I was riding a motorcycle and I didn’t have any more idea of what I was doing except I knew that it would go. We would get notice from the Airport that there was going to be a wind storm; well because all the houses all had these umbrella clothes lines, We would drive along and had a horn; and we would notify people to let those things down; because boy I tell you the wind would hit those things and they would lift off because of that kind of stuff. TERRY: How would you be identified if you didn’t have a phone? Who would notify you at the start? PAUL: Well they notified patrol headquarters for the airport and they’d give us that information; then we would go out all of the guys either in cars or out on bikes; going out through the town notifying people that there was a wind storm on the way to put their clothes lines down. That was the only communication that you had; if you were sick it was almost impossible to get; you just had to go to the hospital or you had to go where the doctors were; that was the only way you could get any treatment, because couldn’t call and have somebody come out until they finally got telephones for people. It was a mess for awhile. PHYLLIS: We got a phone because I was pregnant at the time; that was the only reason; well that was fine. Then I got an ulcerated tooth, only one I ever had in my life; I didn’t know the name of any of the Dentists; so I called up the operator and I said, “I just don’t know”, so she read me off all the names of the Dentists in town; it came to close to sounding Scandinavian; I said, “That one is fine”. He was our Dentist for many years. I was fortunate. TERRY: Tom did you have a comment? PAUL: Well when my son came down with scarlet fever; TERRY: Jump in Tom. PAUL: of course at that time, the Health Department came out and of course you were quarantined; I mean they put the big sign on the house and nobody could get well…milk was delivered by Carnation Milk… PHYLLIS: Oh yes, I remember. PAUL: and so we were instructed to tell the Carnation people that they were not to pickup any of the bottles that had been used; so we would stack them up when; they would leave the boxes they were in; we had, I’ll bet you we had 50 or 60 boxes or I mean gallon bottles stacked up out on the side of the house. At that time they treated that disease with ah, ah, I can’t even think of it now, but anyway it was one of those things that you had to drink a lot of water. That boy, I tell you, we were on his back all the time to drink that water; to drink that water; to drink that water. Back then I was paying him a nickel a glass. Even that money got scrubbed by the Health Department; they took all of those milk cartons down to wherever they take them; I suppose cleaned them or aerated them or whatever they did; that was one of the real experiences of. I could go in and out because I was working; my wife had to go in clothes that; she had to wear, what do you call them? The ladies wore the over there… PHYLLIS: Kimono? PAUL: Kimono yes or something likes that; every time she came in or out; I mean she had to change into it. We had one baby that was just about 6 months old; it was a little bit you know it was touch and go there for awhile hoping that nobody else was going to get that. PHYLLIS: Was it small pox or was it scarlet fever? PAUL: Scarlet fever. JOAN: Well we came late to this party, so we missed a lot the stuff these guys went through. We were here about 3 month before we were able to get into a 3 bedroom Prefab up on Willard. The only thing that was furnished at that time was a very small range and a refrigerator. My first challenge was the windows; I made four fairly good size windows in the front of this house; the ceilings were not very high so the windows were almost floor to ceiling. I had to cover them quickly; I bought some sheets and had to go out and find a secondhand sewing machine so I could sew some curtains for this place. If you look at the pictures over there; all those little windows in front and all the little windows up each side. They were weird sizes you had to make them; you could not go out and buy curtains for these things. So that is what we had to do; there was no backdoor in the Prefab. STEVE: Just a garbage door. JOAN: Except that little trap thing…is that what it was? STEVE: The garbage door. JOAN: Garbage door, well we wondered. TERRY: Was your Prefab skirted or did you have something around the bottom? JOAN: I think it was skirted; I don’t think any of them had foundations. STEVE: No. JOAN: When they finally sold them they had to put a foundation under them. PAUL: They moved 400 of them out; most of them went over to Pullman; to college and they were used by students the, fact of the matter is, would any of you know Rick Rile, he was (inaudible) he and his wife went to school over there and he lived in one of them; at that time when they were going to school. There were 400 of them that went out and then they were replaced by the Precuts; that is how come we got the Precuts. MARGARET: I don’t know about curtains and how they worked when you got here (Joan); originally there were no curtain rods; you had to go down to down to CC Anderson’s to buy this little tape and fit it into this little slot; sewed the tape to a curtain and then these pieces were on the tape every so often; slide them on and that is how you got your curtains up. STEVE: Prefab was interestingly slim they slid in the bedroom the kind of pulled in and slid over the slot; and when you put them back there was a latch on it; when the wind blew the dust would come in like you were standing outside. GROUP: Some saying, “Yes that’s true”. TERRY: I have a question for the ladies: What were the biggest challenges as far as the cooking or cleaning. In the movie, “Termination Wind Storm” it talks about keeping their plates turned over; until it was time to eat because the dust had come in. That isn’t true. PAUL: That is a little far fetched. JOAN: The dust was terrible. PHYLLIS: The dust would come in and you would see little pyramids of dust after a storm; you would go around and see that. I said to myself “This is ridiculous I don’t want to put up with this all the time”; because I had to borrow a vacuum, we could not afford a vacuum, we borrowed one from a friend that came at the same time down at the other end of town. So I got this rope caulking, you know that grey round stuff, I just stuffed it in all the windows of course you could never get the window open again. But that stopped it and everybody else kept complaining they could not figure out; I thought I was doing…I thought I was pretty smart. TERRY: You didn’t have any air conditioning? STEVE: No. PHYLLIS: I had a swamp cooler; which was a terrible thing. UNKNOWN: They were a live saver. PHYLLIS: After awhile they got moldy. STEVE: Swamp cooler oh yeah. STEVE: It had excelsior in it that water would drip over it and let the air through. PAUL: The Ranch House’s had oil or the first they were coal; it was such a lousy firebox. You know about three ounces of coal in there and you would hope it would make it through the night, but it never did. In order to keep them from putting another thing on the house, one of these evaporators, PHYLLIS: Swamp coolers. PAUL: swamp coolers. What I did was I took the back room or I guess you want to say porch no that is not what they called it, it was a utility room. I took that window out and I put one of those wire things in there with that brown…what they call…that tank. STEVE: Excelsior? PAUL: Excelsior and put a little hose up at the top so that the water would come down; then a drain pan with a hose. It ran on down the side of the house; but I had to image what happened at the backdoor. PHYLLIS: Flowers. PAUL: No, it was not on the flowers; it was right at the backdoor; where that happened there wasn’t any concrete so I really had a muddy mess for awhile. Then you take the cover off the furnace and turn it on; that would pull the air and it would go through it and down; distribute it. It worked pretty well for awhile. TERRY: What was there for shopping? PHYLLIS: Campbell’s Grocery. Joan: CC Anderson. STEVE: Every neighborhood had a little grocery store, drug store you know in almost every neighborhood. PHYLLIS: We had Thrifty Drug. STEVE: Yes. Then Downtown over here in the Greenway there was a CC Andersons’. PHYLLIS: We had one Safeway didn’t we? STEVE: Yes a Safeway. UNKNOWN: That was just across the street from CC Anderson’. STEVE: Yeah right. JOAN: And Finns was there the “Photographer”. PHYLLIS: And the Frontier Tavern was there. TOM: Frontier Tavern yeah I remember that one. PHYLLIS: It is still here. PAUL: When I came here there was a grocery store on there where ah; what’s that place up on the corner of “B” and George Washington Way? PHYLLIS: That would be the Salvation Army. PAUL: No, No, not that one. TOM: There was a grocery on south (inaudible). Paul: Trustworthy Hardware was there. It is now called (inaudible) or whatever. That was a grocery store and the guy that had that grocery store, came down from Yakima, I will think of the name of it in a minute. TOM: Garmos. PAUL: No, No, No. Campbell’s was down where the church is; the Foundation Forest or the Forest Foundation or whatever and Garmos was up on what now is Goethals which was… (There was a glitch in tape; dead time air.) RESUMING TAPING: PHYLLIS: That is not in town. PAUL: The big building down here on… TERRY: What did you do for fun? STEVE: “What did we do for fun”, that’s a good question. MARGARET: We went to the movies. STEVE: Well I was single when I first came here; we formed an organization called “The Dorm Club” and we had some of the best parties. That is when we all met our wives. We would organize trips to the ball games; in fact I was the Social Chairman for a couple of years. We would go to plays, over in Seattle; or go to Pullman to a ball game; or Seattle for a ball game; go camping, organized camping trip. We never had any lack because skiing in the wintertime; we never had a lacked for something to do. JOAN: The Richland Players and the Light Opera had things going on for a lot of years; so they put on show all the time. PHYLLIS: I went to the movie theaters. JOAN: We played a lot of bridge, a lot of bridge, neighborhoods you know. STEVE: And lots of (inaudible). UNKNOWN: Excuse me, wasn’t the gas rationed? So how did you? How are you able to go out of town? STEVE: Well that was during the war; after the war the gas (inaudible) during the war. During the War you could not get any gas. PAUL: During the war you could not get any gas. PAUL: During the war you could not get any gas. There was gas here. UNKNOWN: So this was after the War that you went traveling. UNKNOWN: Out at old Hanford it was (inaudible). STEVE: No I came after that. UNKNOWN: That’s another lesson. PAUL: Yeah right. UNKNOWN: I was here January 11th to July; I believe (inaudible). TOM: Were you. Was that in the Barracks‘? UNKNOWN: Yeah. Yeah. TOM: In what year? UNKNOWN: What year? That would be “44”. MARGARET: There was a dance place up at the south end of town. (Inaudible) they are saying something about the Social Club. STEVE: Well there was the Castle Club and the… PHYLLIS: There was “The Officer’s Club”. STEVE: There was one out here south of the town… PAUL: “The Korda Club” just across the street from where the City Sewer Plant used to be; there was a divider down there and it sit right in the middle of it. That was for all the employees in the plant except government employees. The government employees had their own it was called “The Castle Club” it was up where Westgate is now. It was an old house and they put another building along side it; that was where all the government employees went. Boy I’ll tell you what; they had some (inaudible) going through. I was up there for a couple of them, I’ll tell you what, and they were not for those who didn’t have a (inaudible). STEVE: Out towards the Richland Y; the roadway used to be down on the flats before the flood. There was “The Red Mill” out there an old barn; then farther on out you could turn toward, up toward Prosser, there was “The Jungle Club” which was an after hours place. It got raided periodically. You know in those days “The Bottle Club” was the only…you had to bring your own bottle. TERRY: Okay there was a (inaudible) the bottle club. STEVE: There were “Bottle Clubs” you could not buy a mixed drink. PAUL: I don’t think many people know that during that early part of, I guess it was in “43” and “44”; while they had Hanford going that there was one section that was for Blacks; I tell you they were just absolutely, they just about drove all we guys in patrol group; just about drove us all nuts. But all of the things that they had; there was a divider which the women were over here and the men were over here; just like it was where the white people was. There was a ladies Dorm and the rest of it was all the men’s. Oh I’ll tell you there wasn’t hardly…I was in Hanford for two weeks going through the school; I don’t think at least once every second day, or maybe it was the third day of the week, there was always, almost a revolt down in that Black area. Oh some of the meanest people, I’ll tell yah. UNKNOWN: They wanted to be together. PAUL: Uh? Yeah right. You just could hardly keep them apart. TERRY: I heard a story was it yesterday or today; one of the docents was telling me that, “When the wind and sand storms would come-up and if you saw a kid playing out in the yard like a toddler or baby; you would just run and grab the kid and get him inside. Whether, it was yours or whom ever just to get the kid out of the dust; because they would get scared; then it would storm”. Anybody have that kind of story? STEVE: Well you could see the storms coming in over the hills; just a brown cloud just descending down on town. Boy you would rush to get your laundry off the line. JOAN: I’ll tell you my introduction to the Pacific Northwest; I am from Schenectady, New York; you know the Hudson Valley and the (inaudible) Valley; lush, green you know gorgeous. So we got married and we flew out; my husband had left the car in Spokane. We got into the car and got down as far as Ritzville and a dust storm came up. It was so bad that the State Patrol had a huge truck with these big spotlights on the back; they took each car through this area of dust. I do not know if they were going on a map…no not a map… PAUL: Radar? JOAN: I don’t know it was not radar. I don’t know how they got the truck through, but they would take a car through, and comeback and get a…I was terrified. By the time we got down to Pasco; well there was this big sign and I looked to see what it said, “Road Closed”. The road must have been closed just about as soon as we got on to it coming down 395. At that time, it was a two lane road and it was (she is showing with her hands how curvy the road was with her hands) terrible hi-way. STEVE: It is still the closest with the dust storms. PAUL: There are still plenty of the wheat fields up there. GROUP: All are nodding their heads yes. JOAN: Anyway that was my introduction. Coming into George Washington Way; and you know that Frank is pointing out this is; the post office; that is the Library; all this stuff. All I could see was these tiny little trees growing all along the road; nothing was very big yet. PAUL: I think the maddest I have been since, I have been here, is when the changes Jadwin from, from, from… UNKNOWN: Goethals? PAUL: From Goethals, yes. I tell you I was absolutely mortified; because George ah what did you say? PHYLLIS: Goethals. PAUL: Goethals, George Goethals is the guy who built the Panama Canal. The fact of the matter is there is a hundred, I’ll tell you this story, there are a hundred and four streets in the Richland area; that are all named after Core of Engineers, engineers. I had a big fat run in, not more than about two months ago, with the City because a little two block; up where Denzel’s is now called “Ogden ” and they changed “Ogden” to… UNKNOWN: Provo. PAUL: Yeah, Provo. Well I happened to be driving down; I live in that general area, I was driving down Wright and I saw this sign up there and I said, “Hey that is not suppose to be there; they have changed the name.” So about two days later, in the newspaper was a little article, written by a guy who was delivering to people who needed to have food; he had a lady that lived on Ogden and he was up there trying to find Ogden, and he could not find Ogden; it was gone. I thought, “Ah hah boy that’s a good one for me; now I will really get down there and get in those guys hair and I did too. What happened was that they did not know that there were a hundred and four streets in this town that were already named and are over fifty years old, but they know now; everybody in the City knows now; I can let you…I have got a ... if I can find it. I have got a copy of “How they were all named”; anyhow, I went down to City Hall; I jumped on the new City Manager the first thing, and so forth. Finally, they decided that what they would do…there is a whole list and every one of those that are listed here; there is a story about them. PHYLLIS: Oh really. PAUL: That was written by a guy by the name of “Paul Nissen”; Paul was the Editor of “The Villager” the local newspaper. He wrote this to Colonel Mathias; it listed all of the one hundred and four names; along with it, took from their…there is a history about all the men who served in the Core of Engineers, and have listed what their…or what they did or this kind of. JOAN: The Museum needs to have that. TERRY: Yeah, we would love an email. PAUL: Anyway I gave this to the Clerk; he proceeded to say to his to one of his ladies in the place there, “To go made some copies of this so somebody could have a copy of it. It turns out that everybody in every department in the City of Richland has got a copy of this. (Paul holds up paperwork.) But they did not change it back. The reason that it was even changed was, there was, out in Hills West there was a street out there named “Ogden”; what they wanted to do was they didn’t want to have double names; in one part of town and the other part of town. Which made it difficult for the Police and Fire and so forth; so they changed that one. I told them, hey leave “Ogden” here and change that one over there. They didn’t go for that. Anyway, this is available and if anybody would like to make a copy of it, you are certainly welcome to it. PHYLLIS: I live on Van Geisen so I am sure that, that is in there. UNKNOWN: Tell us the story about how Goethals changed to Jadwin; or what? PAUL: Goethals was changed to Jadwin; why I do not know. I have never been able to have anybody tell me “why”. UNKNOWN: So there still is a Goethals. PAUL: Goethals was the second main highway, Main Street in Richland. Up until… STEVE: Where they did the uptown district, wasn’t it? PAUL: Yeah, when they came when they were going to build, uh? UNKNOWN: It was after that. - STEVE: Was it after that? PAUL: But anyway they changed it and changed it to Jadwin. He was one of the engineers, he is written up in here. PHYLLIS: Kadlec, I wish people would not say “Kad-lack” it is “Kad-lick; it gets me so mad. UNKNOWN: When did the Mart Drug Store get started? PAUL: The Mart ah…begs pardon. STEVE: Well what was the cafeteria? GROUP: All talking at once and I can not make out what any single person is saying. PAUL: There was a drugstore on one side and a … PHYLLIS: And a … (inaudible something dropped and was unable to hear Phyllis’ answer) PAUL: No, No … UNKNOWN: A jewelry store… PAUL: What was his name? That had the jewelry store uptown. UNKNOWN: Nihart PAUL: Yeah, Nihart. He had his shop in that and so one night they had a dance in the cafeteria; took all the tables out and so forth; “Jack Teagarden and his Orchestra.” PHYLLIS: Really? Oh wow. PAUL: And they played a dance in that building. STEVE: It was really a pretty large cafeteria. There were serving lines and you would go down the middle; holding a tray. PHYLLIS: Oh I mean the building. JOAN: It was open all night. STEVE: It was open; 24 hours. You would get off swing shift; a bunch of us would gather in there, and carryon. We would be there in the morning when the dayshift came in to go to work. PAUL: It almost had to be because all these people were working; you know they were working all shifts and they were coming in and going; they needed a place to eat and so forth. STEVE: The food was not all that great. PAUL: I’ll agree. PHYLLIS: You know speaking as briefly as shift workers and the painting. You could have a choice; well the shift workers would chose that really dark green or a dark red. I swear that they must have had black too; because they could sleep during the day. When we got to buy our houses and do our own decorating; that was heck to cover over; because that was (something tone) over. It helped them sleep because it kept the light out. TERRY: When it came time to buy the house how was the posed pricing set and do you think it was fair? PHYLLIS: It was very fair, very fair. GROUP: Whole group agreeing that it was fair. PAUL: The original price almost had a World War III as a result of it. They finally got them "jewed" down to the fact that they would make them a little better. The fact is; I bought my house and I paid $4750 I think… STEVE: It went to a tenet. PAUL: A four bedroom Ranch. STEVE: We were the junior tenets in the “B” House so we were way down on the (inaudible-list) so that is why we moved to Kennewick. PHYLLIS: I think we paid about $17000 or something for the “A” House. MARGARET: At market price. PAUL: They got in it when they were kids. PHYLLIS: Well I got a Duplex House. Now they have it at $85000. I have not really done a thing to it. STEVE: Single people when they came to town had to live in dormitories’. Only a very few, high mucky mucks, single mucky mucks, got houses. There were a few people to finagle some deals. My sister-in-law came here to teach school; she somehow or other, she was a single lady, she somehow or other got a Prefab. I think she was the first tenet in it. She had that Prefab all these years and we inherited it from her. You had to have a roommate; the Housing Office would tell you who your roommate was. PHYLLIS: Really? STEVE: Yeah we didn’t get a choice; because I finally managed to get into an apartment and my roommate left; they told me who I had to take in with me. JOAN: We were in a Prefab and it went up for sale. I think that we were probably just about the last area to be put on the market, so to speak. We got this (holding up a piece of paper) and it was a notice of “Offering of Single Family or a Duplex House for a First Priority Purchase”. Since we were living in the house we got the first priority to purchase this house. It was appraised by the FHA at $3275; this is 3 bedrooms Prefab. The sales price on the property however, was listed at $2783.75; Two thousand seven hundred eighty three dollars and seventy-five cents. Being appraised value left 15% and it went something like if you thought, the City of Richland was really going to go, you took the 15% off, but if you did not think it was going to go then you paid the full price; then you could get the government to buy it back. If you took the percentage off you were stuck with that house see. I think like I said, “One of the last areas to go up for sale”. We knew the house was going to be too small for us; I think by that time we already had a little boy. So we started looking around and found a Ranch House up on Chestnut; we had 93 days by the way to consider this; at the end of the 93 days we put a $100 down I guess we would buy it. Then we put the house up for sell; we advertised it probably in the little “GE Newspaper” and perhaps “The Columbia Basin News” I think the name of the paper at the time. PAUL: Yelp that’s right. JOAN: We set for a Friday night at 7 o’clock; well these places were “HOT” (inaudible); all of a sudden traffic you would not believe, cars parked up and down. There they were standing at the door trying to get in. So we opened the door at 7 o’clock and these people went swish and within two or three minutes a guy was back to us and said, “We’ll take it and we’ve got (we were asking $3500 we were going to make a little bit of money) we have $3500 worth of Saving Bonds we are going to cash in and pay cash. Just like that (Joan is snapping her fingers) we sold that house and had a down payment for the Ranch. Well my husband was pretty smart so he figured it out that if we bought the Prefab, sold the Prefab and bought the Ranch all in the same day we would just have one set of closing costs. Then we moved into our “Y” House. PAUL: We have not talked about the schools. The only building that was available, for the first people who came here was Lewis & Clark and right adjacent to it was the old Richland High School. Which later became the….uh…? STEVE: The American Legion. PAUL: Yeah the American Legion occupied it and they ruled it out, and Bonnie moved it out. This lady was talking about (pointing to Margaret) the one out in West Richland… PHYLLIS: John Ball. MARGARET: No North Richland. PAUL: Yes John Ball; sorry it was North Richland. I am sorry. North Richland of course was almost a “Little Hanford”. There were a row of house’s that faced the river; and from there up for about four, I guess about four lanes between that and George Washington Way; were rows of, where the people brought their trailers, so forth, they lived in those trailers. I have it here somewhere here what the number of kids that were in that school... But anyway it does not really matter. When they got ready to leave, just like they did Hanford they just closed down and they moved out. The guy who was the Superintend out there, Ray Lamb, became the principle of Spaulding and that is where all my kids went to school, was at Spaulding. The other day I was going through, I am the worst person for keeping something. I tell you I have enough to write four books; I am thinking about doing that This thing I found is called “The Hanford History Timeline“ and it lists all of the things here that have to do with Hanford period: When they came; When they were done; Who did them, and so forth. I tell you I got involved in that thing and I could not quit; I just had to do it; I just had to redo it all; everything that I knew; when all the reactors were built; when they were operated, when they closed them down, and so forth. When all of the contractors came in, from time to time that would be starting out with DuPont and then with GE and with all those other guys, and so forth. It tells: When the reactor started, stopped and all the other things. In January 10th of “1946” bids were received for dismantling “The Ghost Town of Hanford”. There were a lot of those buildings that were brought in and were out at North Richland. When they brought the Military in they put all those guys out there with their deals to shoot those things up in the air. PHYLLIS: The missiles? PAUL: The missiles. Then they needed some more help or some more room so they…from Pasco; from the Naval Depot they put those on barges, and barged them across the river, and they were put out there at Hanford. Just beyond where J. A. Jones shops were. Is there anyone here that remembers about J.A. Jones? TERRY: You know what, our hour is flying. You know what I would like to do is just open up for a couple of questions, and then we are going to have to wrap-up; it’s already almost 8 o‘clock. Then afterwards I am sure we can spend sometime mingling and chatting. Is there a question over here? UNKNOWN: To the lady that taught at John Ball School; “About how big was that school; do you think?” MARGARET: I can’t tell you how many children, but it was made of Quantum’s; they lined they all up sort of each side and ran a hallway down threw the center. When I came they had a section down here and a section over there, and they were putting a big one in the middle then. That was our cafeteria or gym or whatever we didn’t have at the time; also the Library and Principles office. I remember the first day of school; there were so many kids standing at the front door. When we got our students assigned to our rooms we didn’t have even a folding chair for the children to sit on. Immediately we went on shifts; we taught one half in the morning and the other half in the afternoon. PAUL: Well it was established: February 16, 1948, and it was opened with 136 students. The peak enrollment was 900-2100 students in January of 1949. The school closed June 30, 1955 by the U.S. Army and the first principle was Raymond Lamb. MARGARET: We had 5 first grades. PAUL: I don’t know how many of that Quantum’s they put together. PHYLLIS: They didn’t have kindergarten at that? MARGARET: Yes we did have kindergarten. PHYLLIS: Oh you did have kindergarten. MARGARET: We were still having air raid drills at that time; so the Quantum’s would not be much protection. So we went out between the Quantum’s and the river; they dug a ditch and it must have been; be 12 feet deep and 12 feet wide. When there was an air raid alarm went off; all the kids went out the backdoor and across that sand block playground; then down into that ditch and we would all lay on our stomachs. PHYLLIS: In the dirt? MARGARET: Yes in the dirt. I tell you it was not bad getting down, but just try to get all those little first graders back up that hill. TERRY: Quantum? What is that? PHYLLIS: Yes they were the round “U” building. TERRY: Composed of metal? PAUL: You know the big ones down here at the Cities. TERRY: Oh at the City shops. Oh, okay. MARGARET: (Inaudible) TERRY: They would be awful hot. MARGARET: (Inaudible). Swamp cooler on the outside TERRY: Swamp cooler would keep it cool. STEVE: They have a picture of that back (inaudible). PHYLLIS: Oh yes we do upstairs. TERRY: I have never heard that before; I did not know what that was. MARGARET: When we had a dust storm the custodian waited just before we left… TAPE ENDS Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:58:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource ABC [Alphabet] Houses Panel Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Oral history about living in Richland, Washington Alphabet houses during the 1940s and 1950s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/23/1999 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A / T.2010.052.030 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fab3bcb71128a08d28e0c5c0c0fcec2bf.3gp fb23424dbc3730c361b0ef4b3072db62 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Terri Andre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roger Rohrbacher, Mary Rohrbacher, Ray Issacson Location The location of the interview CREHST Museum Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p> </p> <p>CREHST Oral History Project</p> <p>Brown Bag Luncheon Interview</p> <p>Title: “ The Fear Factor “</p> <p>Date of interview: October 12, 2004</p> <p>Location of interview: CREHSTMuseum</p> <p>Moderator: Terri Andre</p> <p>Interviewed: Roger Rohrbacher, Mary Rohrbacher, and Ray Isaacson</p> <p>Transcriber: Robert Clayton</p> <p> </p> <p>These individuals described their experiences during the construction and subsequent operation of HEW facilities during WWII and the early years of the cold war.</p> <p> </p> <p>TERRI: First off why don’t I have you guys introduce yourselves and tell when you came to Hanford and sort of what you did in the beginning.</p> <p>RAY:   Ray Isaacson as I used to be known around here. Then I retrogressed to my childhood and became Bud Isaacson. That was my name that all my family knows me by. I had a cousin come here to Richland one day to go to some kind of a meeting. He looked down through the telephone directory and he got back to RochesterWashington and he saw my mother and he says, “I thought Bud lives in Richland.” “Well he does.” “Well I couldn’t find his name in the telephone directory.” “Well did you look under Raymond?” “No I didn’t know that was his name.” So anyway I came to Richland in 1948 during the construction period. I worked in construction on the ranch houses, and on the SpauldingSchool, and Lewis and Clark, and Marcus Whitman. Then I went back to school at University of Washington and the next year I found my way to Grand Coulee Dam and got into construction there and mixed all the cement plants for the east powerhouse. Went back to school, got my degree, came back here and went to work in the 234-5 building where I worked most of my time. Eventually I got elected to be a state representative and then county commissioner. So here I are.</p> <p>ROGER: I ‘m Roger Rohrbacher. I came to Hanford in the spring of 1944. I had come from the University of Chicago and even go back one step further. I worked for Dupont in an acid plant in Illinois. My buddies were leaving and turned out they ended up at Hanford. I got in contact with them and said, “What are you guys doing?” “We don’t know.”  Another guy said, “Man it’s sure isolated out here.” I thought I’d head out here too to see the great northwest. So I was told to report to Dr. so and so at the University of Chicago only 40 miles away. And after 6-8 months there I came out to Hanford. Let me tell you a little side story about what it was like here. Bill McQue was one of the early guys out here. He was in “B” when it started up. His wife came out a little later. Came out on the train. And she was talking to the person next to her and the other person said, "Where are you headed?"  She said, “Pasco.” This other lady said, “Honey that’s the end of the world.” (Laughter). Anyway I came here just after the dormitories were built so I didn’t have to live in the barracks.</p> <p>RAY: Did you know George Thatcher?</p> <p>ROGER: Yeah that sounds a little familiar.</p> <p>RAY: He worked under the stands at the University of Chicago.</p> <p>ROGER: Quite a few who worked there came out here.</p> <p>MARY: I am Bluey Rohrbacher. Roger came back and we got married in the fall of ’44. And when we came out we got off at beautiful downtown Pasco at 2:00 o’clock in the morning and the fella that was supposed to pick us up was not there. We didn’t know how we were going to get to Richland. Finally Roger saw somebody he knew and we got a ride into town. I went to work at the original Army hospital or Army type hospital and I was a medical technologist. I had a real surprise. It was the most well stocked lab I had ever seen. Most labs are tight with money. They don’t buy binocular scopes and all sorts of good things but this one did. We had 12 med techs when I started and we took turns going out to the areas.</p> <p>TERRI: Where was that hospital. Was it where Kadlec is now?</p> <p>MARY: Well it’s just east of there sort of. We called it KadlecHospital then and it looked just like an Army hospital you know a central hall with wings.</p> <p>TERRI: So it was pretty much patterned after an ArmyHospital?</p> <p>MARY: Oh yes pretty stark.</p> <p>TERRI: So by the time you came the secret was out? Right? You came later.</p> <p>RAY: Yeah.</p> <p>TERRI: Did you have any misgivings about coming?</p> <p>RAY:   Not at all. As a matter of fact I chose to go into the nuclear area being a graduate chemical engineer with lots of physical chemistry background and inorganic background and so forth. I just thought Hanford would provide a lot of opportunities in that general area and the nuclear part of it.</p> <p>So the bomb went off but the next phase was going to be producing electricity from nuclear power.</p> <p>TERRI: Roger at what point was it that you knew what it was that you were working on?</p> <p>ROGER: After it was announced in the paper. We had suspicions but that was all. One of the operators had a fuel element and he saw it was heavy. He said, “You know I used to work in a uranium mine in Vancouver, British Columbia.” He says, “This feels just like uranium.” His boss says, “Gee that sounds interesting.” and turned around and left. He didn’t want to spill the beans. Things like that would come up. I worked the instrument part of it and I was moving a neutron saver under the plant.</p> <p>Neutron saver and I said this ain’t a chemical plant because that was the rumor. That Dupont was running this big chemical plant out here. Everything came in and nothing left and we got suspicious. Because, actually, for the start of B Reactor there wasn’t any big announcement at Hanford or anyplace. Even though I was probably in one of the 100 areas at the time nobody told me. But the official word was when the paper came out and said, “IT’S THE BOMB.” It was the Villager or something.</p> <p>TERRI: So you were doing actual science or engineering type work but you only knew one piece of it?</p> <p>ROGER: Well that was a strange quirk Dupont had a habit of moving people around where they needed people. Like I worked in a chemical engineering group at the University of Chicago, which was under the Manhattan Project. When I came out here this fella I interviewed for said we would like to have you in the instrument department. I play a trumpet so I’ll fit right in. (Laughter). I said I don’t know anything about instruments. He said it doesn’t matter we will train you. So then there was some few months of classroom training and hands on training and then working with another fella. Finally I was working on my own. Most of the time I worked at Hanford I worked in instrumentation.</p> <p>And another change Dupont needed some people in the pile technology group that was before they had reactors and I worked there for a couple of years.</p> <p>TERRI: So you were working in the medical field. Did you have any inkling that anything unusual was happening?</p> <p>MARY: Oh no although the med techs rotated out to the areas we had no idea what was going on. The labs as I remember were in windowless rooms and we were not allowed to go out any place. We had to stay in there all day.</p> <p>TERRI: So you were escorted out to the areas?</p> <p>MARY: We went out on the bus and if we were lucky we got a ride in with the doctor that was out in the area.</p> <p>TERRI: So you wouldn’t have to come in on the bus. (Laughter.)</p> <p>Mary: Oh yes. Those busses were horrible. But we had to stay where we were going in the lab. We were not allowed to go out. We hadn’t the foggiest idea what was going on. They didn’t tell us and we didn’t ask. That was one thing you don’t ask.</p> <p>TERRI: So that was pretty much accepted.</p> <p>MARY: Oh yes, yes.</p> <p>TERRI: Now when you came out was there still a great deal of secrecy about different work that was going on?</p> <p>RAY: Oh absolutely yes. As a matter of fact it took me quite awhile to get my Q clearance. Then I got my weapons clearance and then I got my top-secret clearance. Everything was secret.</p> <p>TERRI: What can you tell us that you did work on that is no longer classified?</p> <p>RAY: Well I did work in the 234-5 building which was the plutonium processing building. We received the plutonium nitrate initially from T plant and later on from REDOX and PUREX. Those plants were much larger and more efficient. We received plutonium nitrate solution initially in the 231 building and they converted that to an oxide and that went over to the 234-5 building and that was converted to a metal in 234-5.</p> <p>TERRI: My head is spinning...234-5 OK.</p> <p>RAY: Well 234-5 was the plutonium processing and plutonium fabrication building. One of the big studies that was made was Senator Hikkenlooper said that the AEC spent way too much money building the 234-5 building. And so there were a lot of investigations going on before they started up. But once we started up I came in 1951and wound up down there for my assignment to help the processing engineers.</p> <p>TERRI: Now in the past few days there has been a lot of B Reactor talk because of the 60^th anniversary of the start up. And one of the things that kind of surprised me and I thought may have caused a little quiver of fear was when they talked about when the very first plutonium product was done how it was transported down to California. Were there things like that that may have afterwards kind of raised an eyebrow and thought you know there might have been a little safer or we would have done it differently now?</p> <p>ROGER: Well there was one thing after the fact I heard about it. When B Reactor was loaded there was concern about how much fuel should be put in. Enrico Fermi said, “1500 tubes.” Dupont people they always had a couple of special terms. One was contingency. And this fella from Dupont, a technical consultant, was Crawford Greenewalt. He went up to General Groves and said, “What’s your contingency?” Well Groves didn’t know what he was talking about and he said, "Well, Fermi said 1500 tubes. That’s what we are going to do.” And Crawford Greenewalt said, "If this thing shouldn’t work who do you think will get the blame?" Groves was no dummy, “How many more tubes do you want?” And Greenewalt said, "500."</p> <p>TERRI: I understand the shape changed too with the extra tubes.</p> <p>ROGER: Yes they provided more fuel and more area for the neutrons to interact with the plutonium. As a matter of fact that was a fear an unknown. When the reactor first started up it slowly decayed and the power level went to zero. That’s when the top-secret people got involved…Enrico Fermi, John Wheeler, and Crawford Greenewalt sat in the room and tried to figure it out. One story is Fermi was waving his slide rule around and they were talking back and forth and the story that came out was they were taking a pool to see when the reactor would start on its’ own. And whoever got the closest would win a bottle of wine.  Gambling on government property. (Laughter).</p> <p>RAY: With a nuclear reactor. That had never been operated before.</p> <p>TERRI: What’s the funniest thing that you have ever seen out at the Hanford area? Something must have broken up the days of just dust.</p> <p>MARY: Yeah there was plenty of dust. Well one funny thing that happened to us was we were assigned to a one bedroom prefab. Oh it was lovely. No lawn and the desert was one block across the street and we had about a three-inch gap below our door. We had invited some friends of ours for Thanksgiving. I set the table ahead of time and when we lifted up the plates there was a circle of dust around them. I remember that so well. (Laughter). It was dirty.</p> <p>TERRI: I think I would have been worried about spiders and things coming in.</p> <p>MARY: They probably did. I don’t remember spiders but oh that was a small house. Believe me.</p> <p>RAY: Being that this is the CRESHT museum you probably should have some of Dupus Boomer’s cartoons.</p> <p>MARY: Oh we do down the hall.</p> <p>RAY: That explains it.</p> <p>TERRI: What about you guys? Something maybe that struck you as a little odd or funny.</p> <p>ROGER: Probably more odd. One of the problems of the reactor the graphite expanded. It grew to the point where they were concerned about keeping the reactor operating. After a while they decided if they could heat up the graphite that would help the problem. But still the expansion was kind of bad and the reactor itself had a sheet metal covering on it and the corners had neoprene seals. These seals were being stretched by the expansion of the graphite. So they put an oddball looking clamp in the upper right hand corner to stop this. A visitor came in and said, “B Reactor is held together with a giant C clamp” (Laughter)</p> <p>TERRI: At least it didn’t look a giant cloths pin. That would have been even funnier.</p> <p>RAY: Well I think the thing that really impressed me more than anything else was when Max Roy was at Los Alamos and the Department of Energy, not DOE. but literally the Army, decided that they needed more plutonium. Of course we were limited on our capacity here with the old reactors that we had. So then the question was is there anyway that Hanford can produce more plutonium? And the answer was well if we change the specifications yeah. So this got bounced back to Los Alamos and the design engineer says, "No way." and Max Roy came back and said, "No way." and the Army said, "Yes there will be a way and we will increase the production at Hanford." And what was sacrificed was the quality of the plutonium. The longer you leave plutonium in a reactor the more some of the higher isotopes grow into the material. Some of the isotopes are varieties of plutonium. Like 239 was the target plutonium to be made but when you leave plutonium in a reactor for an extended period then Plutonium-240 grows into the other plutonium. And so when you separate you can’t separate the two except by some other more classified process.</p> <p>(Laughter)</p> <p>TERRI: O.K. will let that one slip by…classified processes.</p> <p>RAY: But anyway they decided to increase production by 20 %. That changed the kind of isotope mix that we had. So now it was necessary to go back and change the comparations of the reactor. Well Max Roy got kind of in a fit and he had a little cabin in Mexico so he went down to Mexico from New Mexico to his cabin. He stayed in his cabin for about 6 weeks to show them that he wasn’t really needed. (Laughter) But he came back and picked up where he left off. Well at that time I was in the inspection of the plutonium parts as they came through the 234-5 building and how do you cope with this because they put a cap on there. So the question was how does the isotopic ratio come out from each of the reactors? Well we had B Plant still operating so lets batch it through it through B Plant. Isolate it through 234-5 building. And when we get down to the weapons portion then we will evaluate each one of those parts and see which reaction it came from or correlate back to the reaction it came from. As a consequence we were able to set up the operating level for each one of the reactors such that we got a pretty good blend of the plutonium through the 234-5 building meeting specs that Los Alamos would permit. And so every reactor then had a certain exposure level that they pushed to.  Then when we went out to inspect on the weapons end of the business we will just throw it back to our melting operations along with some other materials and get the appropriate ratios back through inspections and on down to Rocky Flats. At that time we were shipping through Rocky Flats.</p> <p>TERRI: I have to confess I got very little of all that. For non-technical types let me see if I got it. So you had to increase your output by 20%.</p> <p>RAY: So that consequents higher levels of isotopes growing onto the plutonium which you could separate out through chemical methods.</p> <p>TERRI: Did they have to separate them out or did they just leave them there?</p> <p>RAY” No we just left them there. And when we were over the limits we would bring it back to our casting operations and melt it down with some other plutonium that had a lower level of the higher isotopes.</p> <p>TERRI: I’m trying to come up with an analogy.</p> <p>RAY: There isn’t one that I know of.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: They were talking production and I have a non-technical thing that I was there when it happened. In the 1950’s I was working in the 100 Areas. And well a little bit of the basics. The amount of power you can get is how much heat the water going from the front of the tube to the rear the bigger the difference you had a limit of what you could go over on the rear. But the colder it was going in the more production you could get. Well we heard technicalists tried to think of a way to lower the temperature of the Columbia River. Wow but you know they did.</p> <p>TERRI: They lowered the temperature of the Columbia River?</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: They got to dealing with the Corps of Engineers and they got Grand Coulee Dam to let the water out instead of over the dam from the bottom of the huge lake and it was several degrees cooler. It tasted pretty horrible because we also drank it. It had a different taste. Our drinking water was filtered of course.</p> <p>RAY: At that time the east powerhouse hadn’t been completed and they had huge needle valves in the bottom of the dam that they would open. And when those needle valves were operating in there that air would just pulse in front of you. So if you smoked a cigarette that cloud of smoke would just sit there and pulse in front of you. When they put turbines in there they had to close off all of those needle valves. All of the water then went through the turbines instead. From the top down. So that was a kind of a limit to 1951 was the end of that cooling operation.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: Did you know how much of a percentage increase it made? Did you ever hear that?</p> <p>RAY: No. As you say it was delta t across the reactor. That is indicative of the power produced by the reactor and of the fission  that was taking place in the reactor.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: I’d like to mention another one. This was from a man who I got to know who was in Chicago working for Dupont with a chemical engineering background. He was there when the big first test was made. He was involved with the team that was doing the chemical work. This is the way his story went. When they had the reaction then they had this bit of uranium that had been gone through the process then it went to chemical processing. At one point they had gotten the plutonium that it had. And he said there it was the world’s supply of plutonium in one test tube. And somehow it fell to the floor and went down the drain. Well they recovered it. I thought it was quite a story. The world’s supply of plutonium in one test tube and somebody dropped it.</p> <p>RAY: As a matter of fact Glenn T. Seaborg was developing the chemistry for the plutonium processing. And the plants U Plant, T Plant, and B Plant and C Plant was never built. Those plants were based on those micro-chemical tests of the first plutonium that was produced by Dr. Seaborg. And they scaled up from microchemistry to these full-scale plants. That had never been done before. I mean that’s a how shall I say it that’s a factor of probably several hundred thousand times scale up.</p> <p>ROGER: That reminds me of a fear factor with Seaborg. In the early days he had real trouble trying to get enough plutonium to work with and then try to do something with it. He told his crew, “We really need a bunch of biologists.” And they thought old Seaborg’s cracking up under the strain. Biologists don’t work on that stuff. He said, “We’re working with stuff we can’t see and that’s what biologists do all the time.” He was joking but his crew didn’t particularly appreciate that.</p> <p>RAY: Well it goes beyond that too because the mathematics associated with fission reactions are from biology. The original mathematics was based on biology mathematics. On the creation of cells.</p> <p>TERRI: Almost like the splitting of cells and multiplying.</p> <p>ROGER: That’s where the word fission came from.</p> <p>RAY: Right.</p> <p>TERRI: So is that why he wanted the biologists?</p> <p>ROGER: No. That was supposed to be a joke.</p> <p>(Laughter)</p> <p>TERRI: Oh you got me. You are just so good at that. Really!</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: What temperature does plutonium melt at? You say you melt it down. What temperature does it melt?</p> <p>RAY: I don’t know.</p> <p>TERRI: Hot! Very hot.</p> <p>RAY: We had a certain process and procedure and I don’t know if that has been declassified or not. But we did have some problems in the metallurgical quality of the plutonium we produced. There was some information in the Tri-City Herald here not too long ago where the Russians found out that one of the phases of plutonium was metastabile. Well we knew that a long time ago. And we know how to stabilize it. They got our secrets and they learned how to do that too. But then we had another technique for insuring the stability over a longer period of time. We developed that out in 234-5 building. So we were able to meet the specifications according to what the design group at Los Alamos wanted.</p> <p>TERRI: Now I heard a story a while ago and I don’t remember who told me it. So I’m going tell you guys this story and you can tell me if it sounds like something that may have been true or if it’s kind of like we start to get our own little brand of folklore. This story the day that B Reactor first came up and went critical that they had technicians walking around the building with Geiger counters and walking through the building and maybe sticking the Geiger counter wand around the corner to make sure it was safe to walk around the corner. To make sure nothing was going wrong.</p> <p>ROGER: I haven’t heard that one.</p> <p>TERRI: You haven’t heard that one. Well maybe we’re starting an urban legend. (Laughter) Let’s see what other rumors can I start. (Laughter)</p> <p>MARY: There were lots rumors but we knew nothing really. When you worked at Hanford you only were told as much as you needed for your job and beyond that forget it. They did not tell you anything. A lot of people, outside people, had trouble with that. Not understanding why we did not understanding everything that was going on.</p> <p>TERRI: Didn’t you just recently run into that attitude even now?</p> <p>MARY: Yes I did. Roger was interviewed several years ago by a reporter from a paper on the west side. And after she talked to him she called me up and wanted to know what I knew about the plant. I said, “Well nothing really.” Because we weren’t told. We didn’t need to know for our job as med-techs. And she said, “Well didn’t you ask your husband?” I said, “No. He couldn’t say anything. He was not allowed to talk about it.” She said, “Didn’t you talk to your neighbors?” I said, “No.” “When you went out socially didn’t you talk?” I said, “No you don’t do that.” She just couldn’t understand that. Finally her parting shot was, “Well it wouldn’t be that way nowadays.” I said, “Yes but you’re not at war nowadays either. That’s a big difference.” The way she said it we were just a bunch of dummies here because we didn’t ask. She just didn’t know what it was like. I tried to tell her about the security and she didn’t get it.</p> <p>TERRI: It was before Iraq.</p> <p>ROGER: This is another one. There was no fear but it was just the opposite. I think this was the time when Glenn Seaborg came out for Battelle for some doings. 25 years of Battelle. Afterward a group got together and somebody said, “I’m so amazed so much stuff got done.” One was oh boy I forget his name he used to run the old HanfordMuseum and he finally went blind.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: Fosgate?</p> <p>RAY: Yes. Elmer Fosgate said, “We were so dumb that when the boss said to do something we did it." And this other guy says, "What about approval?”…we didn’t need it …”What about QA?” …never heard of it. There was quite a bit of that. The only real restriction at least that I ran across in the 100 Area was the radiation monitoring people. A couple times I wanted to say, “Just take a reading. There’s paper on the floor. I’ll hold my breath.” The radiation monitor says, “Well Roger you don’t work for me and I can’t tell you what to do but if you go in without suiting up, as in putting on special covering, I’ll get your butt.” Except he used stronger language. They were I would say right up there with top management. You do what they say or you get in trouble.</p> <p>TERRI: Then did that go through until later years too? They were pretty much able to.</p> <p>RAY: They set the parameters. If there was an area that was contaminated you didn’t make the decision to go in there yourself. You had your monitor with you and escort you and keep you out of trouble.</p> <p>TERRI: And that didn’t cause any queasy feelings?</p> <p>RAY: No.</p> <p>TERRI: No?</p> <p>RAY: Why should it? You were safe. You were protected by your keeper.</p> <p>TERRI: The radiation monitor told you…so as long as you were sure that they were reading their equipment right.</p> <p>RAY: Well you knew what…you had air monitors and things like that. One guy that got scared the most was a guy by the name of Ardal and he was operating in the hood. In the 234-5 building there was a recuplex operation where we recovered plutonium from the scrap and recycled the solutions. He was working there in the hood in the glove box hands extended in this hood. All of a sudden this criticality alarm went off. “Ahooga Ahooga.” He dropped his hands out of the hood as fast as he could. He ran through and broke the seal on the back door. He ran around the building as fast as he could. He got to the badge house he laid his arms down on the desk and he said, "I’ve had it. I saw the blue flash. I’m dead.” (Laughter) What had happened was there was too much concentrated plutonium nitrate solution that got sucked up into what at that time was called the K-9 Vessel which was a recycling vessel that was being used to slurp up all their spills and whatnot on the floor; but they put a lot of cadmium nitrate in there to absorb the neutrons from the plutonium solutions so it couldn’t go critical. But when they cleaned up the operations someone spilled a batch of concentrated plutonium solution on the floor and they had been sucking this stuff up with this K-9 Vessel. 18 inch in diameter it was not a critically safe vessel. So when they slurped it up into the tank it went critical. And according to my calculations from the year before it followed the form that would be expected for a solution of plutonium nitrate. It had a big spike of neutrons coming off and then all of a sudden it died down. The reaction stopped. But then when the solution collapsed upon itself then it started up again. So you get a 2-peak burst that tails off. What happens is when a plutonium solution goes critical like that the radiation is so high it separates the hydrogen oxygen into gasses they form bubbles and the bubbles rise. When bubbles rise the solution expands. What they call the buckling of the configuration then is diminished with respect to the K factor the K effect. The multiplication of the neutrons stops and goes sub-critical. And then as the solution collapses on itself as the bubbles clear that solution it goes critical again. But this time it doesn’t peak out as high. And as I say when I did the calculations the year before people wouldn’t believe me. So when that happened everybody of course cleared the building. I was downtown getting a haircut it was on a Saturday. So I called out and I said, "Has anybody thought about going out to the incinerator building?" In the incinerator building we took all the scraps from 234-5 building-coveralls, hood covers, and scrap out of the hoods that was combustible put it in boxes and take it over to the incinerator building and burn all of that. Well we didn’t want to get too much plutonium together in that facility so we had a neutron monitor there all the time that people watched to make sure that the neutron background level didn’t get too high. That would indicate that there was too much plutonium collecting in the facility. So this monitor was on. Well that was probably at least 100 yards away through a couple of concrete walls about 8” thick. And sure enough they got the charts at my request. I went out and picked them up and there was that trace of the neutrons as the neutrons increased went high and then they fell back and then picked up again. So then we could watch the neutron flux like you say from 100 yards away through some concrete walls. So those instruments were that sensitive. At that time W.E. Johnson was the manager here and Paul Ranker was the manager of the 200 Areas. So I was requested to explain to them why my model worked. Nobody else would support that concept when I developed that model the year before. And sure enough that’s the way it happens. Part of my calculations were based on work that Klaus Fuchs had done down at Los Alamos before he defected to the Russians. He was working on the boiling water reactor at Los Alamos and came up with the equations for that type of system and sure enough that’s how it works.</p> <p> AUDIENCE MEMBER: What was the timing of those sites. Do you recall?</p> <p>RAY: Oh it was a very short period. I’ve got my charts at home. I kept a copy of my charts because I used unclassified information to develop the model.</p> <p>ROGER: Is that what they call Rankers Reactor? We heard stories it was called that.</p> <p>RAY: Yeah Rankers Reactor a boiling water reactor.</p> <p>TERRI: Was that guy OK?</p> <p>RAY: They did some checks on the sodium isotope ratio in his body. While he didn’t get a critical dose he was affected. He could never go back into a radiation zone. But he lived a normal life after that. But as an operator in a non-radioactive environment. There was another young guy in there with CD so they did a biopsy on his testicles because that was what affected. And he suffered more from that than he did from his exposure to the neutrons. (Laughter)</p> <p>ROGER: Speaking of radiation that reminds me of a story. The first is true but I don’t know about the rest. Dupont and GE later if there was a particular job in a high radiation zone they usually used supervisors or engineers because most of the operators got their dose during the day. The story was that a fuel element, a slug, got stuck in the elevator in the rear of the reactor. And one of the 8” fuel elements would probably give you a lethal dose in about 20 or 30 seconds. Well Bill was to go out with I think it was an 8 foot pole and run out to the elevator and try to poke this fuel element loose. He was told to poke only twice. Whether you get it or not get back. The radiation monitor was standing right around the corner to see what the reading was. Bill ran out poked it. It dropped off the first time and he ran backwards so fast he knocked over the radiation monitor around the corner. (Laughter). He was one of the older guys when he came out he was 32 and they called him Pappy.</p> <p>RAY: It was all young people.</p> <p>MARY: Very young people with a high birth rate.</p> <p>RAY: Our first son who is now a doctor here in town was born in the old barracks the old KadlecHospital.</p> <p>MARY: Yes both of our children were born there.</p> <p>TERRI: And did you come out here married or did you get married once you got here?</p> <p>RAY: I got married the year before I graduated. So we were married and came out together.</p> <p>TERRI: So what did she think of coming out here to this part of the EvergreenState?</p> <p>RAY: She was born and raised in Rochester which is south of Olympia about 20 miles fir trees all around. I was born in the desert down in Arizona and I like desert country. She thought it was pretty bleak. But we stayed.</p> <p>TERRI: So did she know what your job was? Sort of?</p> <p>RAY: Well not really because again we couldn’t talk about it. She got herself a job in the suggestion department. So she worked out in the old HanfordHigh School that was where her office was. She got to see a lot of stuff out there.</p> <p>TERRI: I’ll bet she got to see some interesting suggestions. Some of which you may not want to talk about. (Laughter).</p> <p>RAY: Walt Smizer was one of her bosses. Jack Perrard and Walt Smizer. But back to the production days another thing that was interesting. I was in process control and then followed the process into the 234-5 building. Me and another guy developed the process that is still used today isolating the plutonium from the nitrate solution converting it to metal. Following that I became in charge of the final plutonium shapes that were shipped down to Los Alamos and then Rocky Flats. So I got awful close to the parts. We handled them with our hands if you can believe. They were plated with a coating on them so we could walk around in the room literally with the pieces of plutonium.</p> <p>TERRI: With gloves or no?</p> <p>RAY: Well you could have like surgical gloves but that was just a precaution in case there was any plutonium smeared around and hopefully you wouldn’t smear any around you wouldn’t drop any. But when they shifted to the high production effort during the height of the cold war years we were kind of faced with a dilemma in identifying or measuring what we called the neutron “emacivity” rate. And of course that would depend on how much 240 was in the 239 plutonium. Well when we got into that aspect of it. Well when plutonium fissions by itself you know it’s a natural fission it’s a natural fission product that emits neutrons all the time. But depending upon the mass of plutonium there would be what you call self- multiplication. The more plutonium together then the more the plutonium would return the neutrons within itself and it would give off more neutrons because of this multiplying effect. Well when we got into this higher level of 240 we didn’t have the mathematics to make corrections for the self-multiplication. So what we did is we had cylinders of plutonium-right circular cylinders like a hockey puck or several hockey pucks. And so what we did is we went on weekends we would run our experiments and if you can imagine Robert Lewis Stevenson- Bob Stevenson was one of the new criticality analysts and I became one and then Dr. Dwayne Clayton ran the Critical Mass Laboratories. So the three of us and we had an instrument tech with replicate instruments and he called this operation Rubber Knee. So we would take these right circular cylinders of plutonium and then we would stack them up and then we would get a neutron count. And then we’d stack another one on and we’d get a neutron count. Well if you plot the reciprocal of the neutron count as the neutron increases then if you take the inverse of that the fraction becomes much smaller all the time. So you plot the reciprocal of the neutron count you know 1 over the neutron count as the neutron count gets bigger this number gets smaller. So you get a curve that comes down and as it comes down it tends to level off. And where the line crosses 0 that’s when the mass is critical. That’s when you have a self-sustaining nuclear reaction. And of course the process of that is disassembly is the rule of thumb. That’s what happened down in Los Alamos with the slope that was tickling the Dragons Tail when he was trying to find out what the critical mass was for an plutonium bomb. And of course he got an excess of radiation and he died from it. But we would never go up past 98% critical. We could identify that very readily. But as a consequence of that we were able to correct that self-multiplication as we had more of that 240 in these weapons parts.</p> <p>TERRI: So that’s what they called Tickling the Dragons Tail? That’s what they called it?</p> <p>RAY: That’s what Los Alamos called it. We called it critical mass analysis.</p> <p>TERRI: What was that about Rubber Knees?</p> <p>RAY: Oh that was the instrument technician you know because when you keep stacking stuff up and you get more and more neutron emissions well you know …when will it go critical? That’s why independently Dwayne (Dr. Clayton), Bob Stevenson, and myself all did triplicate analyses of where we were and we had to agree 100%. No disagreement between the three of us. And then we’d take it a next step but we would predict what the next step would be. Then we would go back to our calculations and see if our prediction was correct. So as a consequence of that we were able to determine what the self-multiplication was with this higher isotope concentration. The other fact was that we used an americium-beryllium source as our trigger in the weapons components to get our neutron readings. From our equations we could calculate the emacivity for these weapons parts. Well what happens is as your americium-beryllium ages americium decays and as a consequence you don’t get the same emission rate. And so what you have to do then is you have to correct your calculations for that. Well I got into an argument with the people at Los Alamos over this and they said you don’t have to worry about that. Well we were pushing the limits on our reactions out here to get maximum production and it did make a difference. So we finally got an allowance from them that would allow us to correct for the age of our americium-beryllium source.  So some more of the interesting aspects of working at the 234-5 building.</p> <p>TERRI: Sounds like an awful lot of math.</p> <p>RAY: Oh yeah.</p> <p>TERRI: It does to me it sounds like an awful lot of math. And you didn’t have calculators?</p> <p>RAY: Oh yeah we did. We had Freeden-Marchant mechanical calculators. And of course we had our slide rules. And slide rules are good to 3 decimal points. Three significant figures I should say not 3 decimal points. And by interpolating you can stretch it to 4.</p> <p>TERRI: Kind of like if you knew generally what it should be then it probably is going to be if you are out 3 figures already. If you can see patterns then you pretty much figure out what the next one was going to be.</p> <p>RAY: Yeah you can interpolate yeah. I learned an awful lot about math.</p> <p>TERRI: Well when we take kids through the museum one of the things that I have them do when they look at the exhibit of the office up there is I ask them …Where is the computer? Where is the calculator? And of course there isn’t one. But there is a slide rule there. And when I tell them that’s what they used they just look at me. And I just look back and think I don’t know how to do it either. (Laughter).</p> <p>RAY: Well there are tricks you can use with a slide rule to extend it to 5 figures but that’s pushing it just a little bit too far.</p> <p>TERRI: Just a little bit. Then did you find that when you were here working did the other women were they accepting of the fact that we’re just not going to talk about it?</p> <p>Mary: Oh yes you didn’t talk about it because well one thing that happened was the first year we were here some man tried to crawl into the window of the women’s dorm. He was out of here out of town the next day. That was the end of that. Even though that wasn’t a security infraction. I mean as far as the plant was concerned. He was out.</p> <p>TERRI: Well I’ll bet that may have scared some of the women and if they lost some of the women they would have to replace them. So in a way it’s a security concern.</p> <p>MARY: Another thing that happened with Roger before he came out here. When he knew he was coming the FBI went to his parents in St. Paul. It scared the daylights out of them. They couldn’t imagine why the FBI was investigating him …what had he done? It was just so he could work here.</p> <p>ROGER: That is the exact words my mother used … Roger what have you done? (Laughter).</p> <p>MARY: Well he couldn’t tell her what he was doing and she was really upset about that having the FBI.</p> <p>TERRI: Now back then did they wear the same suit that they wear now? You can spot an FBI guy by their suit.</p> <p>MARY: I don’t know about that. Well I don’t think they dress that way now so much. We have a relative that’s an FBI agent. He’s pretty casual.</p> <p>RAY: Well there was very tight security. As I say I got into some advanced clearances. But what really ticked me off was I went back east with GE and I became the manager of the new product development section of GE Wire and Cable. In that operation there we were working on some new systems for Phased Array Radar. Or super detection of highflying objects or things like that. Well I had to go back through and get another clearance check because in the military the Air Force in that area does not recognize the AEC  “Q” clearances or weapons clearances. So they had to go back through all my history again. I had to write down all my jobs when I was there what I did there and so forth. And when I moved, what my addresses were. Who I knew and things like that. Their list of questions was much tougher than the AEC  “Q” clearance.</p> <p>TERRI: Now once it got out what Hanford did what they were doing over the years. Was there any problem with people not wanting to come here and work here? Did you notice any difference in like people wanting the jobs?</p> <p>RAY: People follow money.</p> <p>ROGER: There was a junior depression in the late 30’s I think that attracted a lot of the construction workers. This was a good deal.</p> <p>RAY: Wages were high here.</p> <p>TERRI: So even well I’m thinking now later on when people started to become more fearful of atomic things. It seems like for a while everything atomic was wonderful. It was the new coming age. And the in the media in comics and things you started getting a darker side. I’m wondering if there was any problem recruiting?</p> <p>RAY: People trade on fears. People trade on fears.</p> <p>MARY: Well especially the anti-nukes on the west side of the state. They are very anti Hanford. And they promote a lot of publicity that is anti-nuke and it scares people there. When Roger worked in the museum when it was still in the federal building, a man brought his mother in and she said, " Well is there any radiation in the museum?" And her son said, “ Well of course mother there is.” And she wasn’t going to walk in to the museum. She believed him. (Laughter) Well of course it wasn’t true. You wouldn’t have a museum with radiation in it.</p> <p>RAY: You’d get cosmic bombardment.</p> <p>TERRI: If you had a sunroof. Oh no radiation from the sun.</p> <p>ROGER: We had Fiesta ware. Dangerously radioactive.</p> <p>RAY: Yeah. This ceramicist well actually he was a stone carver. I forget his name now. But he was going to make a stone for B Reactor. A round block.</p> <p>MARY: Jim Accord?</p> <p>RAY: Yeah Jim Accord. And of course he collected all these Fiesta ware dishes and he pulverized them and took the glazing off them which has uranium in it. And he collected his uranium that way. Of course he’s got lots of stories about all the problems that he had because he had this uranium from the Fiesta ware that he had concentrated that he used as a radiation source. To listen to him and all the problems that he had the way that they treated him was just absolutely asinine. But that’s because of scare stories through the media.</p> <p>ROGER: He did finally get a license.</p> <p>RAY: He got a license.</p> <p>ROGER: And he had it tattooed on the back of his neck. Maybe he had too much radiation. (Laughter).</p> <p>RAY: Well then we had a chemist out here by the name of Gaylen Windsor. I don’t know if you have ever heard of him. But he worked out there. He had a house not too far from where Ralph lives. He used to give lectures and talks about the radioactivity and things like that and how these people were nuts about how dangerous uranium was. So he had a little sample of uranium oxide. It’s very green so he gave a lick on his tongue and shows that green tongue and thinks nothing of it because the amount of radiation active in uranium is very small. In reality it’s a very low level of radioactivity. And then there’s the guy who worked in the beryllium research back AmesIowa. They were working on uranium processing back there at the University of Ames, Iowa there. He always chewed snoose. So he always had these dregs on the sides of his mouth from this snoose.</p> <p>TERRI: Was that like chewing a tobacco?</p> <p>RAY: Yeah chewing tobacco. Anyway working in this area where they have lots of this dust uranium dust it was green. So they used to call him the Green Hornet. (Laughter). And then when he retired from that job or left that job they wanted to take a bone section to determine how much radioactivity he had in his system. He absolutely refused. He said you’re not going to cut me up.</p> <p>MARY: One of the other places was on the buses in town. There were big signs … Silence Means Security. If you went to the movies that was flashed on the screen. It was everyplace. You got a big dose of security. You just didn’t talk about it unless you wanted to be out of a job and out of town. You just shut up.</p> <p>TERRI: Now was that rumored or did you know that people had to end up having to leave in a hurry? Beside the one guy you tried to…</p> <p>MARY: The one man is the only one we knew of for sure. But there were probably others. But you just did not do anything that would jeopardize security.</p> <p>RAY: You just maintained your own integrity. If you screwed it up you weren’t of the quality to continue working here couldn’t be trusted.</p> <p>TERRI: So it wasn’t a matter so much of government repression as it was a matter of integrity. That you were doing something to help win the war to help advance science.</p> <p>RAY: And it was an attitude too.</p> <p>TERRI: And if people didn’t maintain that they probably wouldn’t want to stay.</p> <p>MARY: That’s right.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: I knew a lady whose husband worked here he was no longer alive. He was hired in the very early days when they were just starting. She said the interviewer giving the interview said, " Do you talk in your sleep?" He said, “Why? Why has that anything to do with it?” “We can’t hire you because you are known to talk in your sleep.”</p> <p>TERRI: Wow-wow!</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: You might say something to your wife.</p> <p>TERRI: And who knows what she might be ahhhh! So now the wives who didn’t work did they have to get security clearances too?</p> <p>EVERYONE: No.</p> <p>TERRI: So just the women that went to work.</p> <p>MARY: But I didn’t. You were supposed to go to a security meeting when you started working at Hanford. I went to one the day before I quit. (Laughter) That was the first and only one I ever went to.</p> <p>TERRI: How long did you work?</p> <p>MARY: About 6 months- 7 months.</p> <p>TERRI: So then they may have been very efficient in making all of this other stuff but they weren’t very efficient at keeping track of who had their meetings.</p> <p>MARY: No.</p> <p>TERRI: Well they just took one look at you and they knew that you didn’t need this. (Laughter).</p> <p>MARY: Oh sure. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. (More laughter). No they didn’t trust anybody, which is fine.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well did you know anything? I mean you said you didn’t talk about anything. But did you actually know anything?</p> <p>MARY: No because you were only told what you needed to know for your specific job.</p> <p>TERRI: Do you think that’s why you really don’t feel much fear? Because you really didn’t know what was going on?</p> <p>MARY: Exactly.</p> <p>RAY: I would say no. It depends what job you were in. I wasn’t a nurse in that part of it. But I was out there in the middle of where we handled parts that went into the Atomic Bombs.</p> <p>TERRI: But you didn’t know what was going on. Really.</p> <p>RAY: Oh yes we did.</p> <p>TERRI: Oh you did know.</p> <p>RAY: Oh absolutely.</p> <p>TERRI: Well she asked if you did know what was going on.</p> <p>ROGER: Not in ’44 though.</p> <p>RAY: No not in ’44.</p> <p>TERRI: Ok. That’s what I think she was talking about the fear factor and I was wondering if that was because people only knew what they needed to know.</p> <p>MARY: We didn’t have any fear about it.</p> <p>ROGER: Well you didn’t know what to fear.</p> <p>RAY: Depending on what job you had- yes and no. Again back to when we were producing the plutonium parts for the thermonuclear devices it was a whole new world. Because now you were making in essence you were making a container for the Tritium Bombs. And of course that had to be some very tough specifications. Also it increased the inventory of plutonium that we had to deal with. And we had a very limited space in which to handle this stuff. So we had this so called  “Remote Mechanical A-Line” in part of our area where plutonium was being fabricated made into parts for the thermonuclear devices. And so I guess I can say they looked kind of like a hemispherical piece like a soup bowl or something. And so when it came down to … how much can you store in a given area? We used to have what we call mass limits. So many kilograms of plutonium would be in one type of area. But when we got into this area it was a more of a distributed shape rather than a compact shape. So now the question was how many of these things could you have in your storage array? Well we didn’t know. We didn’t know an awful lot about the mathematics of fast neutron systems. So Bob Stevenson and I and Dwayne Clayton got together again and said well the only way we can find out is to measure it. So again we stacked these things up in this storage array- an endless track kind of an oval. So when the operators wanted some … rotate around to get a piece that they wanted. Well again we did this on weekends. We went out there and we stacked these things up and we had a pretty good inventory of this stuff. So we would stack them up and we’d take our neutron count. Then make the calculations. Make our predictions. And that was the next step. And then when we got all done we had just short of a kiloton of plutonium in this one storage configuration. And we got up to a multiplication factor where we figured we were about 98% critical. But we went that far and we knew what we dealing with and how we were dealing with it and we had replicate instruments again to verify our neutron counts. And we had the three guys to verify the calculations and our predictions. And so we were able to come up with those kinds of controls. Today we couldn’t do that because of the fear mongering in the media that’s been creating fear and doubt in people’s minds. But if you knew what the heck you were doing. And if you monitored what you were doing. And you verified what you were doing. Without an error check going to lead. There was no limit to what you could do to get the kind of controls that you needed to meet the demand for weapons components to meet the insatiable appetite of the Cold War. It was just a kind of production frenzy… worldwide. So you knew what you were doing. You didn’t have to have someone telling you. You had to know what you were doing based on theory and physics based on the real world and control these things. You certainly wouldn’t want somebody in there that wouldn’t be responsible.</p> <p>TERRI: Well in a weekend we get people from all over visiting the museum. We get all kinds of people with all kinds of fears. I’m going to tell you a couple of stories that are on the ridiculous end. But what I want you to maybe move us into reality. One was a group of school children who came by bus from the west side. And they were here for a full day. They were going through the museum. They were doing some other activities. And they were going to have lunch out by the Columbia River. And the teacher had gotten them so worked up they were afraid to sit by the river to eat their lunch. So now we’re on the ridiculous end of the scale right. Moving a little bit farther up the ridiculous scale. Remember in the paper not too long ago there was a guy that was swimming the Columbia? I understand that when he went by Hanford he put on a special suit. (Laughter) And he had people in boats going with him with radiation monitors to make sure he was ok. Now what I wanted to do was get into the collections and get into one of those suits and go out by the river with a Geiger counter and just point at it and go … OOOOOHHH! But my boss didn’t think that was such a great idea. (Laughter). So from your perspective from both of you having worked at Hanford a long time. And you from the medical viewpoint. Do you think that was a reasonable thing to see him in that suit or was it overkill?</p> <p>RAY: It was stupidity.</p> <p>TERRI: Pure stupidity ok. (Laughter).</p> <p>RAY: I often think about giving up my little ion exchange water purifier to Ecology in Olympia so they could dismantle it. It’s been fully spent so I know there is a lot of residue in there. It may have some radionuclides in it of some kind. I offered to give that to them so they could dismantle it and check it … no strontium or cesium or whatever they might find. As it turns out that we have more uranium going down the river than we have from Hanford. Same way with thorium and of course radon. And tritium is in there from natural cosmic radiation quite a lot of it. As a matter of fact when we sampled deep water as part of the Basalt project that we working on many years back in the ‘70s. We had to take our deep-water samples and we had to bring them up into an argon atmosphere so there would no carbon dioxide from this atmosphere getting into this water because we felt that would taint it. As it turns out it didn’t. Atmospheric contamination of carbon-40 or something like that didn’t taint those water samples. So now you are looking for archaic water.  How old is the water underground here? There is more radioactivity in the environment and we can tolerate that. We did some studies on that.</p> <p>TERRI: Roger you had a story come to mind.</p> <p>ROGER: Oh a fear story this is a story presumably true after the word got out about what Hanford was doing. Pasco was concerned about drinking water. So the lab sent a scientist down there to explain it all to them. Then after about a half hour nobody caught on to what he was saying. They couldn’t quite understand this complicated theories of stuff. So somebody said from the audience, "Should we drink the water or shouldn’t we?" He thought about it for a second and he said, “ I’ll give you the rule of 85. If you drank 85 gallons a day for 85 years you would get the maximum permissible dose for a civilian. So drink it.” (Laughter). Well Richland and Kennewick drink the stuff. It does take care of your hair though. (Laughter).</p> <p>TERRI: Nice and soft I can see that. (More laughter).</p> <p>MARY: Well we did have trouble with people in Pasco and Kennewick. When we came there were almost no stores in Richland. C C Anderson’s was in that building where Ariel's is. And that was a nice store. But we didn’t have dime stores and drug stores and all that good stuff and so we’d go to Pasco and Kennewick. Well when they found out that we worked and lived in Richland…Forget it we’re not selling it to you. I had one woman refuse to sell me more than one spool of thread because we lived here.</p> <p>TERRI: Well why?</p> <p>MARY: Because well they were so suspicious of everyone who lived in Richland because they didn’t know what was going on. They didn’t know we didn’t know either. (Laughter). They just didn’t…there was the Fear Factor there on their part. They didn’t understand what was going on and they didn’t want anything to do with Richland people.</p> <p>RAY: In the ‘40s and early ‘50s the political parties the rest of the counties would not accept like the Republican Party would not accept the Republicans from Richland as part of their leadership. When I worked on the Eisenhower campaign in 1951 I was absolutely surprised that Pasco and Kennewick had that kind of mentality with respect to the people in Richland. We were a foreign nation for all practical purposes.</p> <p>MARY: That’s the way we were treated.</p> <p>TERRI: That’s amazing.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: With all the emphasis this weekend about B Reactor- 60^th Anniversary of Startup I think it would be really interesting to hear you both describe the changes. Now it was designed for 250 megawatts and before it was shut down it was over 2000. Would you run through a sequence of events that let happen.</p> <p>RAY: Well I never followed reactor technology very closely except as it related to the production quality coming out of Hanford.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well part of it was a change of fuel.</p> <p>RAY: Change of fuel. Also a reconfiguration of the fuel distribution in the reactor. I know that much about it. They flattened the flex. This gets into some rather complicated physics.</p> <p>TERRI: You know I think we will wrap up in a couple of minutes then if you guys want to talk complicated physics.</p> <p>MARY: I have one thing to say…B Reactor is not the only one celebrating their 60^th anniversary. In two weeks we’ll have our 60^th anniversary.</p> <p>TERRI: Oh! (Applause).</p> <p>ROGER: Seems like it was just yesterday.</p> <p>MARY: I have another story about the early days.</p> <p>ROGER: As a matter of fact there’s nothing that isn’t a story about the early days. (Laughter).</p> <p>MARY: I was just going to say…When the Villager came out and said that the Bomb had been dropped and the war was over. Everybody was out celebrating. The people next door to us were standing out there drinking a cocktail and the park was full of people celebrating and it was just really an exciting time. Finally we knew what was going on. That was the first knew. We never knew a thing until then.</p> <p>TERRI: That must have been exciting.</p> <p>MARY: It was exciting.</p> <p>TERRI: Ok last story Roger.</p> <p>ROGER: Alright. This is Greger’s…I think there was a lot of contingency in the early reactors. And of course they weren’t sure what to expect. So they did a lot things just to make sure that everything worked right. One of the things that they did they even had a de-aerator to take the air out of the water because any nitrogen or argon with the water would absorb neutrons and slow down the reaction. And they talked about getting colder water. One plant even had a giant air conditioner, which was never used. And there were other factors like Ray mentioned they increased the uranium-238 to get more neutrons. And there were small steps along the way that just got snowballed.</p> <p>AUDIENCE MEMBER: When I was out there they changed the diameter and the configuration of the fuel elements by having a hole there right in the center.</p> <p>RAY: That was N Reactor.</p> <p>ROGER: Even the old reactors.</p> <p>TERRI: Well I would like to thank you guys very much for coming. You know what I think? I’m relieved that there wasn’t a whole lot of fear. I really am. I’m glad there were confidant people that were working on these things that knew what they were doing and I don’t worry about living here. In upstate New York some of my relatives were a little concerned when I moved here. We moved here during the time of the burping tank and made national news and they were all a little bit worried but having met people like you guys and people who have worked here since the beginning I know I have a lot of confidence in science and the scientists and I am very optimistic about the future of the area. </p> <p>                        </p> <p>             </p> <p> </p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:16:35 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Fear Factor Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource Roger Rohrbacher, Mary Rohrbacher, and Ray Issacson describe their experiences during the construction and subsequent operation of HEW facilities during WWII and the early years of the Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/12/2004 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A / T.2010.052.011 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F69ff882651010c211ba2bc9f555daeeb.3gp db20ad27219ef3663161137e31688631 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Location The location of the interview Shilo Inn, Richland, WA Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: John Ball School 1988 Reunion INTERVIEW DATE: INTERVIEW LOCATION: Shilo Inn Richland, WA INTERVIEWER: INTERVIEWED: TRANSCRIBER: Robert Clayton LANE BRAY: Gwen has been involved with Lee and all the others in getting this organized. So I’ve been hearing all these wonderful things about all of you and what you’ve been doing and listening to conversations that you had on the phone with her. And we have argued back and forth and it’s fun because I see some of the things that have happened differently than she does so we have argued back and forth and if you know Gwen you know that she always likes to be right. For an example we went down to Portland one time. After going past Portland we were going toward a town called T-I-G-A-R-D and I thought it was Tigard and she thought it was Teagard and we argued and argued about how you pronounce it. Gwen of course knew she was right and I thought I was right. When we got to the town it was about noon time so we went into the town to have lunch. So we went into a restaurant and before we ordered a girl came up and said, “ Do you want to order?” and we said…wait a minute we are having a terrible argument about this now what is the name? Would you say it clearly? She said, “Look at my lips…it is Burger King.” Gwen always wins anyhow. This morning we had a marvelous time Sharon Johnson and her brother Douglas Johnson and Diane Johnson we all went out to North Richland. We looked around and we walked up and down the roads. It was fun to hear Sharon Johnson say I used to go over to the bath house and I looked over at the corner and if I saw ladies legs down below the floor I would yell at them and just run. She said she always felt the bath houses were much bigger than they are now. Tonight on behalf of the Mayor of Richland I’d like to read a proclamation in honor of you. We’re honoring you: the students, the faculty, and the staff. We’re also honoring the mothers and fathers who made a tremendous contribution to this community during that period of time when things were booming. There was a large construction project. And you need to honor your mothers and fathers because they did an outstanding job when they were here with you. The proclamation that I offer tonight on behalf of the City of Richland says…John Ball Grade School Reunion Week August 1988. Where as John Ball Grade School played an important role in the education of children of early Hanford construction and operations workers in the years 1948 to 1955. And where as the children, teachers, and parents have scattered around the United States since those important days. And where as many have returned for a week of celebration and a renewal of good friends, wonderful teachers, and to recall those exciting times. Therefore I John N. Pointer by virtue of the authority vested in me as Mayor of the City of Richland representing members of the Richland City Council and the citizens of Richland, Washington do hereby proclaim John Ball Grade School Reunion Week in Richland and welcome and honor the former students, teachers, and parents who were a vital part of the John Ball Grade School and who have gathered here this week not only from Washington State and Oregon but from Texas, Arizona, Michigan, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Alaska, and many other parts of the nation. We wish you great success for your reunion knowing that many great memories of years past will bring smiles and laughter and that you will renew many old and dear friendships. Signed John N. Pointer Mayor of Richland. Thank you. LEE JOHNSON: Thank you Lane. For the invocation I would like to introduce one of our former principals Mr. Win Fountain WIN FOUNTAIN: We thank you Heavenly Father for this wonderful manifestation of your love. And this rich bounty which we are about to partake. How grateful we are for the generous competent committee that toiled so long to make this reunion possible. For these wonderful people, former students, parents, teachers, staff, and friends of John Ball. And for those marvelous years that brought all of us together. Dear God we ask that you grant each of these assembled and each of our John Ball Family that is unable to join us tonight many more years of hearty health and happiness. In your name we ask Amen. LEE JOHNSON: Thank you very much Mr. Fountain. Now we’re going to do the Pledge of Allegiance. You are going to have to stand up. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Now it’s eat time. (BREAK-APROX. 45 MINUTES) GUESTS ARE SERVED BUFFET DINNER LEE JOHNSON: Ok we are going to continue on and get started now. One thing I was asked several times by quite a few people was to have everybody stand up by graduation years so everybody could see who the other person was in their group. Let’s give it a try. We’ll start off with the year 1952. Anybody here that graduated from high school in 1952? How about ’53? You have to look around the room to see who your classmates are here if you haven’t recognized everybody. 1954? 1955? That was a pretty good year wasn’t it? 1956? 1957? 1958? 1959? 1960? I think that was the last year that anybody could have attended John Ball. It’s not? Oh ok. 1961? 1962? Ok now that’s got to be the end of it now guys. I want some honesty. I’m going to ask you all a question. How many of you went on a diet to come here tonight? Let me see your hands. There isn’t an honest one of them in the pack is there? I heard two ladies out there in the hallway talking about dieting. Where’s your hands? I heard one lady say to the other…she went on a diet-she lost 6 pounds. The other lady said she was on a rotating diet. The other lady says…well that sounds interesting. What’s a rotating diet? She says…every time you turn around you eat something. (Laughter) What did we do? Oh you went to school in kindergarten. What year did you graduate? ’65 let’s have ’65 stand up then. I don’t know why you were so anxious to have him stand up. He’s the youngest one of the bunch. There’s somebody from ’63. ’64? Have I missed anything? Is there a ’66? Is there a ’67? Ah hah. We are going to have a couple of announcements from Gwen Bray. GWEN: I’d like to remind you tomorrow about the picnic. You can start coming down probably about 11:00. Dinner will be served at 1:00. We would like the Richland people to bring some lawn chairs and blankets because there are not enough tables at the park. The place at the park that we’ll meet is the large gazebo. The closest here to the Shilo Inn. There’s parking and we hope we’ll have the gazebo. We’ll have coffee there or lemonade. We also need about 5 REAL men to help us move those tables. The city doesn’t do it for us. Ok Charlie and Derwood can do it for us. If we should have real bad weather we do have plan B. We would meet at the Harry Kramer Center. It’s one of the buildings right on George Washington Way for those of you not familiar with Richland anymore. It’s across the street from the Red Robin. And we would have dinner there at 1:00 so we would have it covered. But we’re all hardy so we know we won’t have to go there. We would go there only in 30mph wind or pouring rain. Right? We also would like to draw your attention to…we have a Quonset hut that has been built for us back here by Mr. Dean Kirby. Margaret was a teacher at John Ball and Dean has built this for us. And you notice he says “swamp cooler”. Remember we didn’t call them air conditioners. But drop the names in the swamp cooler. There are some lists back there for lost students. Those are names that have been turned in to us or any name that you may have that has not shown up on our found list addresses for them or any other students so that we can continue with our computer runs and adding names because in the future we will probably have a reunion and it will be North Richland As well as John Ball students. Thank you. LEE JOHNSON: Thank you Gwen. I have a couple of quickies here too to add to that. Tomorrow on Sunday. The Sunday Tri-City Herald. There will be a full page feature on the John Ball Reunion so it might make a good souvenir for you particularly those of you who are from out of town. I believe it’s supposed to be the Desert Living section. There are evaluation forms on every table. We hope that you would take the time to fill them out. Put whatever your thoughts are on there it doesn’t make any difference how you feel. Put it down. But I should warn you that those that are really negative are on the committee next year next time rather. For those of you that haven’t already figured it out the yellow dot on your badges is student, the red is faculty, and the blue is all the other people. And doing our dance music tonight will be Dan Stone from OK 95. He will take some requests too when the time comes. Ok we’re going to have some awards and prizes. I’m going to introduce Sandy Welch and her husband Bob. They are going to have a few drawings and a few give aways here. SANDY: If you feel the room shake it’s just me. I am scared to death. My husband said just talk like I talk on the telephone and it won’t bother me. We got some prizes that we would like to give out to a few of you people. The first one-Mary Anderson would you please come up. We will get her when she gets back. Mrs. Creighton would you come up. Mrs. Creighton was our PTA President. She went on to be the state president. So we have a thank you gift for her. But I have a question I wanted to ask her. Is there anything that you can tell us that was real special about John Ball? MRS. CREIGHTON: Oh yes. The best kids, and the best parents, and the best school teachers. The best custodians, the best cooks, the best office workers. (Laughter) SANDY: Now you know why she went on to state. Is Sharon Johnson Hesiel here? Come on up. I understand that Sharon was our first student enrolled at John Ball. Sharon in your response in our book it says that you remembered sand, tumbleweeds, cold knees, and spiders. I just have to ask her do you still have cold knees? SHARON: Yes cold feet too. Thank you that’s very special. SANDY: Now I hope everybody remembers where you live. I’d like for all of you to stand up. You probably need a good stretch right now anyway. Come on stand up everybody. Everybody stand up. Now anybody that lives within 5 miles please sit down. Well that took care of Richland. How about anyone within 50 miles. Ok how about anyone within 1,000 miles sit down. Ok how many do we have standing? Ok I’m going to go a little bit further here. How about 2,000 miles? Ok this is super. Ok how about you guys coming up here. These guys came from Enterprise, Alabama. Russ and Sandy Roddy. Jim Nyeland from Herndon, Virginia. Mrs. Dorothy Wimpy from Atlanta, Georgia. Judy Colt from Jacksonville, Florida. Donovan Mills from Enfield, Connecticut. David Mayberry from Rome, Georgia. And his mother. Jim and Sandy Spears from Hasting, Michigan. Lynn and Merilyn Bordelon from New Orleans, Louisiana. This is really super that these guys came this far. Ok now I have one more thing to do. We are going to give away the door. Mrs. Anderson is back. Mrs. Anderson would you come up? Mary Anderson was a substitute teacher and just about every one of us had her for a teacher. So we’d like to thank her. I wanted to ask her a question too. Do you think the kids have changed very much from when you taught them? MARY: Well somewhat. SANDY: She taught all 7 years there. Isn’t that great? Ok now we can have our drawing. I’m going to ask my husband if he will pick out the numbers for me. The number is 806036. Come on up. Bobbe DeVries Burnside. The next number is 806163. Come on up. Susan Rotan. 806066. There she comes. That’s Betty Hoff. 806167. Here we go we got a man this time. That was Harold Kenitzer. 806042. Anybody got it? That may have been ours I don’t know. 806178. Yeah! We got Roger Williams that time. 806053. There she comes. Carolynn Sahlberg. 806203 806025. That was Carol Payne. Here we come. That’s Mr. Creighton Louise’s husband. 806014 806207. There’s one oh good. This is Sue Kingry. This is Mr. Bleiler. Ok this is the last one. 806010. Oh it’s over here. All the glasses have got John Ball School 1948-1955 on them. That’s Lora Burn. That’s all I’ve got to do tonight so thanks a lot. LEE JOHNSON: In the what did we remember section of our response sheets teachers were remembered over and over. I think this would be a good time to take a look at what the students had to say. I just jotted down a few of the quotes. “She was a lady who truly made a difference in my life.” “I remember the teachers first and the school second.” And this one here is really my favorite. I think you’re going to like it too. “I like my teachers very much but I’ll never forget those bath houses.” “She was a real inspiration to me she gave me a real feeling of self worth.” “Teachers that really care.” “The best school I ever went to.” These are some great things said about some great people. Some unique people who were willing to come to the unknown. The unknown of a boom town. They came from all over. They came to build a new community from the ground up. They came to teach diverse student body ever assembled anyplace. They met the many many challenges. They overcame the many many hardships. These teachers reached into our lives and they pulled the best out of each of us. Let’s face it this must have been a top notch faculty because just look how we turned out. I speak for every John Ball student here when I say the John Ball teachers made the difference. Would all the John Ball faculty please stand up? (Applause) That’s from all the John Ball student body to all the John Ball faculty. We say thank you for that part of your life that you gave to us. (Applause) Now I’d like to take a little time out. We had 4 principles there. The first was Ray Lamb. He opened the doors in 1948. He had to do many things a principle doesn’t do. This school had nothing in the beginning. It had no staff. It had no faculty. It had no books. It had no furniture. There wasn’t even enough room for the classrooms. But there were plenty of kids. So many kids in fact the size of the school more than doubled. Mr. Lamb was principle until 1949. At which time he moved to Spaulding and was principle there until his retirement. We would like to mark Mr. Lamb’s service with a plaque. Accepting for Mr. Lamb will be his wife Kay Lamb. Kay Lamb would you come up here? (Applause) KAY: Thank you very much he would have been proud of your group. LEE JOHNSON: In 1949 the baton of leadership was passed from Mr. Lamb to Mr. James LeClair. Mr. LeClair carried on until 1951. He then went into Richland to become principle at Sacajawea and later Marcus Whitman. We would like to mark Mr. LeClair’s service to John Ball with this plaque. And accepting for him will be Mrs. Peg LeClair. (Applause) MRS. LECLAIR: Thank you very much. Jim always maintained that perhaps his most exciting school administration years were here at John Ball. As his wife I well remember those square dances. They were something on Friday night. (Applause) LEE JOHNSON: In 1951 Mr. Winfield Fountain donned the mantle of the office of principle and was principle until 1953. Then he took the position of Dean of Seattle University and later became the director of Graduate Studies. Mr. Win Fountain would you please come to the dais. WIN FOUNTAIN: You know folks John Ball has a very important place in our lives. And I ask just to take a moment here to share a few of the memories which I hope that you will have had with me. I thank you very much Lee and committee for this very nice plaque. But of course this is just not for the principle. It’s for all of the staff all of the fine teachers with whom we worked. I was just a small part. It didn’t take me very long to find that out. My first September at John Ball Pat Cochran who was a first grade teacher for some of you invited me to come down to the room. She introduced me as a person who has a responsible job here. His job is to keep this school running smoothly. And then there was awesome silence and big eyes for just a few seconds. Pretty soon a hand shot up and she said yes John say Miss Cochran I thought that Art Clark and Ann Richards ran this school. And those of you who remember those two they were our custodian and our secretary. And I tell you out of the mouths of babes a lot of truth comes. Actually I’ve always been very very proud of John Ball. It was my great privilege to spend 40 years at almost every level and type of American education. And yet it was right here right here in Richland and North Richland that I found the finest teachers, the most competent teachers, the most cooperative staff, and certainly the most exuberant and interesting students that I ever had in my life and for that I will always have a fond place in my heart. You may have forgot but at John Ball we were considered by Central Washington State University as one of the 6 outstanding elementary schools in central Washington. And that was in spite of all the rocks and the dust and the air raid ditch and the Quonset huts but my there was an unquenchable spirit. And Central Washington recognized that. And I hope that you will long remember that you came from that kind of a school. And oh yes the P.T.A. The John Ball P.T.A. wrote the book. How well I remember the Halloween Carnival night and I was chosen by the P.T.A. to come, as all things, as the Queen of Sheba. (Laughter) So there I was highly and improperly cosmeticized and draped with my wife Louise’s finest satin drape. The next Monday a great big burly pipe fitter wanted to talk to me personally in the office. And then he whispered to me and he said…You know there’s a concern that we have a lot of the fellow workers and I have a concern. We were just wondering you know if maybe there was a little Trans-what ever you call involved here? Well thank heavens my brain was in gear because I said…You do know don’t you that transvestites only wear pink bedspreads? (Laughter) And I reminded him that mine was a manly golden brown. (Laughter) We both expressed real relief. I hope some of you remember the Can Can Girls we had. That was a program whose fame went far and wide. And I’ll tell you there were a bunch of young ladies who do just most anything with a crowd. Bring in a great deal of money. They were entertaioners clear down to that brilliant garter that they wore. Their fame had grown so well that by the next week the Superintendant called me in one day and with a little sparkle in his eye that he always had he said tell me Win where did the P.T.A. get such a group of beautis and titillating entertainers? And I had to reassure him that no one was brought in. That those were all North Richland moms. He fell silent with amazement and was happy. But what I want to say Lee is move over Will Rogers. Those indeed were the good old days. ( Applause) LEE JOHNSON: In 1953 Mr. Eric Soderberg picked up the reins of leadership and carried John Ball School forward to its final year in 1955. He had the sad task of closing forever the school that had served North Richland so faithfully over a 7 year period. Mr. Soderberg moved on to be principle of Moses Lake High School where he still resides. Mr. Soderberg will you please come to the dais? We would like to mark your service to John Ball with this plaque. MR. SODERBERG: Thank you very much. After the last person what else could I say? I think he said it all. I have a few things that I would like to comment on. First of all I’m really amazed and surprised and delighted at the number of people that turned out. Isn’t it wonderful that people will come clean across the United States? John Ball must have been important to them. I remember 35 years ago I came to Richland this being the month of August. I’d been on the coast. I came over here. It was just as hot. I had such a wonderful faculty. The people were such dedicated teachers. When I first was assigned there were 2 schools available. Jefferson and John Ball and I was assigned John Ball. And when I heard that I had gotten that school. And I says now what is this? And so then they told me it was a construction camp. And the people out there were in construction and from various parts of the United States. I thought to myself oh my gosh. What is going to happen? What luck I would have to draw that school. And I thought I’m really going to have a battle. But you know I have still to remember of students who have come to the office. The students good. The parents were outstanding and took care of their children. And certainly the teachers knew how to handle it. I felt so relieved to have such a good faculty. And I hated to leave Richland. But sometimes those things happen and we have to go. So I want to say thank you to the chairman of our group here for this wonderful reunion we’ve had. It’s still a pleasure for me to come down and meet former faculty members former students that are here and I’ve known for quite some time. And I want to say thank you again very much. (Applause) LEE JOHNSON: Mr. Soderberg said something that kind of sparked an old memory. I’m a little hesitant to mention it. I had an occasion to be in the principle’s office once. I don’t really remember why. I think it was because the principle wanted to tell me what a good student I was. But anyway the principle was just coming over to talk to me when suddenly the door flew open and in rushed a woman with a whole mess of kids. So his attention was drawn away from me which I was grateful for. He says can I help you? And the lady says…Yes I want to enroll my children in the school here. And the principle says well how old are your children? We’ll have to figure out what grades they go in. She says these 2 are 6 and these 2 are 8 and the two big ones here are 10. And the principle says my goodness do you get 2 every time? And she said no sometimes we don’t get any. (Laughter) We’re really running late so we’re going to have to cut a lot of things. But one thing you’re going to have to see. There’s just no way out of it. We’re going to have a group of the faculty doing something for us. They are called the John Ball Players. They are going to do a skit for us called The Way We Were. E.B. MC CURDY: I was going to have my friend bring me up here witn my gym shorts on. And I was going to be blowing my whistle to loud hurahs and you would have recognized that I was the first P. E. teacher because most of yoou have never seen me with most of my clothes on. So I wanted to come and really show you that I could do that. There were 2 reasons why. I put on the shorts. I could still get in them. They had no buttons on them that I could see but when I looked in the mirror I found out that I shouldn’t wear them. And then also not only that I found out that if I had used the breath to blow that whistle I wouldn’t be able to say a word. So we are going to go from there. One of the things I’m going to do here at the beginning is to clear up some things for those people who were not at John Ball who didn’t have anyone at John Ball. You were just lucky enough to marry one of those neat people and get to come to the reunion. And as the reunion committees started to talk we discovered that there would be a lot of these people and they wouldn’t know a thing about what was going on. We decided that I might be the vehicle to tell them how this all started. And the funniest thing thet ever happened a few minutes ago when this thing started and a lovely gal came in who was in that mode she didn.t know from nothing about this place. She had just married a neat guy. And I know he was neat because I know who he was. She was in the batthroom with us. And so she had a steak and stayed in there while we practiced. She said she could hardly wait to hear it. So here it goes Linda and it’s all for you. It’s kind of hard for me to speak with my back because I like everyone to hear me. So I’m going to try and throw it both ways (the bull that is). It began in 1943 in April when Dupont the prime contractor bought 600 square miles. Oh I’m a realtor wouldn’t I have loved to have made that sale. This was 5 years before John Ball. Dupont built a constuction camp and hired 50,000 people. They built a town for 16,000 people we called that Richland. Dupont worked with the construction forces to develop the Plutonium leading to the end of WWII. This is history but I would to discuss briefly the persons who left their loved ones at home and answered to the call from the United States Government to do something they knew not what. To come across to a primitive site, to be housed in barracks, 40,000 of them and 8,000 of them in trailor homes with their families. They were fed their meals in 8 Mess Halls each with a searing capacity of 2,700 persons. I’m glad I didn’t do the dishes 3 times a day with 2,700 persons. 272,000 pounds of processed meat was eaten weekly… 15 tons of potatoes daily per mess hall 900 full pies each meal…100 pounds of coffee for one day at one mess hall. ..It woulded take 250 good cows to supply the milk for one breakfast for one mess hall. These people ate a lot but they also worked a hard day. Seven days a week until an accident that happened from stress and distress. So they would get one day off every two weeks so that they could be with their families. One of the things that I loved to see when I was there because we came before Jojn Ball and then came back at that time. One thing that thrilled me so much that my red, white, and blue blood just sparkled when I saw the people give Days Pay- a bomber- that was used by the Allies in the wae against the Nazis and against the others. I mean because that thing was paid for by one days pay by everyone who was on the plant. That was wonderful. That’s the kind of people you come from folks.the important fact to me is the tremendous faith in a country engrossed in a killing war. Faith to work toward a goal without stopping. Your youth, the wiives, the friends, the children have inherited the same fortitude. I didn’t return 2,000 mile to that area if you people were not of that ilk. That is the history of it. Now we are ready to discuss how we were at John Ball School. Now don’t take notes we are going to give you a copy of it. And if you don’t like it you don’t have to take it but don’t throw the paper out on the floor. With me now they call us the John Ball Players we are the Unique Antiques. Now here on my far right is Kay Lamb who slept with the first principle of the school. KAY LAMB: It was a memorable experience. E.B. MC CURDY: And next to Kay is Margaret Kirby who was one of the first 1st grade teachers. And next to her is Lenore Bern who you’ve heard a lot about. They are going to tell you about how we were at John Ball. LENORE BERN: Think about how we were at John Ball. We were before color television, VCR’s, Polio, Polio shots, polyester, electronic music, and computers. Most of us lived on a 40’ lot in a mobile home then called a trailor house without a bathroom or a bedroom. The rent payment for the trailor space including utilities was less than $10.00 a week. Proudly we attended a school with turtle shell classrooms in Quonset huts. There was no cafeteria and no gym. And at first all were separated only by blowing sand. We started school at John Ball with approximately 15 pupils in February 1948. By the end of the school year there were more than 900 kids going to school. We rarely had any accidents and we just ignored the allergies to the wind and the sand. Our P.T.A. was one of the most active and supportive in the state. Our 3rd P.T.A. president, Louise Creighton became famous by being elected to represent all of the Tri-city P.T.A.s at the state level. E.B. MC CURDY: Let’s hear it for Louise! LENORE BERN: Back in 1948, to us, time sharing meant togetherness not condominiums. A chip meant a small pieece of wood. Hardware meant hardware and software wasn’t even a word. Fast food was what we ate during Lent. In the ’40s and ’50s we rejected almost everything stamped Made in Japan. And the term Making Out referred to how we did on our examinations. MARGARET KIRBY: Disco dancing was not popular as there were no discos. We had not seen rice makers and refrigerators or no dishwashers and heat pumps. And didn’t give a dooly about a race to the moon or Reagan’s Star Wars. But we came here on faith and pride in the good old United States. Our fathers didn’t wear long hair and earrings. Our mothers didn’t wear tuxedos and blue jeans. The women teachers would even think of wearing slacks even in the coldest weather. We had to be satisfied with the cloths that our parents wanted us to wear. We got married first and lived together later. In our day cigarette smoking was considered fashionable. Grass was mowed and coke was something you drank. Pot was something you cooked in or carried to the wash house first thing in the morning. And the only crack we worried about was when you walked on the sidewalk and said step on a crack and break your mother’s back. KAY LAMB: Being gay was going to the neighborhood party and popping popcorn. For a nickel you could make a phone call, buy a soft drink, mail a letter, or get a double-decker ice cream cone. We were not before the difference between the sexes was discovered. We didn’t change sexes just made do with what we had. And when we knew we going to have a baby we just had to buy both blue and pink until it had arrived. Oh we were strange type folks. We loved school, adored our principle, and never once doubted that John Ball School wasn’t the finest in the land.and we wouldn’t change the way we were at John Ball even a little bit. E.B. MC CURDY: We found out rather early in the game that we had a fight song and it’s was so exciting. And the words are there on your table if you’ll find it and kind of bunch up there because are going to be in the program. Get your words and get up and I am going to start playing it and the people are going to lead you. Everyone sings the “John Ball” fight song. LEE JOHNSON: Ok we’re going to do one more thing and then we are going to skip everything else and get on with the dancing. What I would like to do now is recognize the committee and if you could just hold your applause until the end. I’ll have the committee stand. Mrs Magaret Kirby was an adviser. She located people for us. She was on the task group, ticketing, badging and entertainment. Mrs. Vera Edwards wasn’t really oon the entertainment committee. She produced and directed “The Way We Were” authored two poems which you are not going to hear now. She put together the Time Capsule which is on one of the tables over here. And by the way we would you to put something in it. Mrs. Kay Lamb was an advisor. She located a lot of people. She provided memorabilia. She was on the entertainment committee. Mrs. Lenore Bern was an advisor, provided John Ball school pictures. She was on the entertainment committee. Mrs. Gwen Bray did the picnic took care of all those details. She was instrumental in getting all of the publicity. The TV commercial, newspaper. We’re going to have the full page in the Tri-City Herald tomorrow. She located numerous people. She even came up with that fight song. Now how many people knew we had a fight song? I would have never have known it. And she did a mutitude of other things. Laura Dean Kirby Armstrong. She was involved in ticketing. She made appointment packets. She found a bunch of people. She was the song leader with Mrs. Knitzer. Sandy Ferency Welchdid the door prizes, took care of the drawing. And she tore this town apart going through school records. And I might tell you this right now. There are no records on anybody in this room. They are all gone. So you can tell them that you finished grade school and nobody can tell them otherwise. Jane Mattoon Carlson. She located a lot of the people. And she worked on one really big project. And that is the Memory Book. She did that single handed. Delores Hoover Stoner. She got a jillion pictures. I’m not sure how many a jillion is but I’m sure she got at least that many. She picked up history all over the place. Anything she couldn’t find she made up. No I’m just kidding. She did all the pictures and memorabilia that you see posted aroung the room here. “Bubs” Colin Blieler. He made arraingements for the photographer to be here tonight. He located a lot of people. He knows everybody in the Tri-Cities. The last person. I want to take and give special attention to this one here. This is Larry Jojnson. My wife worked on this reunion every day of the year. She kept me going on it when I was ready to chuck it. The strange thing about all of this is my wif didn’t go to school out there. But I thank you honey for all the help. Will the whole committee please rise. KAY LAMB: to Lee and Irene in appreciation for all your time in getting the ball started and keeping it going and making a successful reunion of John Ball we’d like to give you these sweaters from John Ball School. (Applause). LEE JOHNSON: Thank you very much for that. I really appreciate that. We’re going to cut everything else out of the program. We will take a little break and then we will have our dancing. DANCING FOR THE REST OF THE NIGHT Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:04:06 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 126kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John Ball School 1988 Reunion Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource A 1988 reunion of the John Ball Grade School held at the Shilo Inn in Richland, WA. John Ball School was a temporary school which served the North Richland construction camp and was constructed of WWII surplus Quonset huts joined together. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1988 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F522e8d97103670d33c1739018c8ccb7c.mp4 0a58e62640bfdd9c9d7d7bb7d90e1eb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Terri Andre Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:58:05 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Termination Winds Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource A group oral history recounting of early days working and living at the Hanford Engineer Works Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The following guidelines are now in effect: Fully in-person classes planned for fall In anticipation of the state confirming a change in social distancing requirements, WSU Tri-Cities will move forward with adjusting room assignments to encompass a fully in-person learning experience. Scheduling will be adjusted for regular classroom capacities and laboratories will move back to their normal capacities. Virtual access to instruction will also be provided to students who are unable to attend classes on-campus for specific reasons. For more information on requesting a virtual accommodation, contact Access Services. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A / T.2010.052.030 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0d006e7c6d7e2663e0f2f595c7b4b72f.mp4 f0de6f5cef8cb1a68b2f909b82e1d0f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Terry Andre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob Hall, Marylee Hall, Nancy Minhear Simons, Anita Mannery Location The location of the interview CREHST Museum Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: Trailer Talk Inside INTERVIEW DATE: May 2, 2002 INTERVIEW LOCATION: CREHST INTERVIEWER: Terry Andre INTERVIEWED: Bob Hall, Marylee Hall, Nancy Minhear Simons, Anita Mannery TRANSCRIBER: Bob Clayton TERRY: I’d like you folks to introduce yourself. Tell us where you lived during the time of Hanford. What brought you here briefly. And then I have some questions to get us started. This week is “Inside the Trailer” next week is “Outside the Trailer”. BOB: I’m Bob Hall my wife Marylee is at the other end. We came in 1948 when I graduated from college. It took me a little while longer than usual to get through college. I had this government tour of Europe. We lived in a trailer at 411 D Street. It was a tiny camping trailer where the kitchen, dining room, and bedroom were all one room. And no bathroom. The bathroom was across the street. You’ll have to talk to Marylee about living indoors because I was working. TERRY: You didn’t want to stay indoors much? BOB: Not much if we could find somewhere else. NANCY: I don’t know about you guys but I’m a little nervous today. Shouldn’t be. My name is Nancy Simons. I don’t know if any of you here in the audience and I bet some of you do know of the Minhear brats that were here early early. My name was Nancy Minhear later Simons which it is now. I moved here in February 1943 and that was fairly early. When we came here it was the old Hanford. And the reason we came here my dad owned a furniture factory in Illinois. They asked him to go up to Chinook Field and build some hangers. That kind of got in his blood and the money was good. So there was another job and another job and they were all pretty short. We ended up being in Camp Pendleton, California. When that little job finished this one was ready to pop. ANITA: I’m Anita Mannery and I came as a young bride. My husband was sent over I came in ’45 and he was sent over to England and was in the war. He left on the East coast of course. I came to Missouri just in time to get in the trailer with my mother and my brother just younger than me who had just graduated from high school and my younger brother who was 9 at the time. My father had come here in September of 1943 which was when the project really started. He was here before there was any men’s barracks even. He was on the very beginning of the construction for the workers to live. He told mom that she had to sell the farm and animals and everything and buy a car and a trailer house to come out here. And she did all that. In some of my papers I found since she died I found the sales slip for the stuff they had in the auction. Because there was 5 of us living in a little trailer I don’t know how we slept. I can’t figure it out at all. My dad worked as a carpenter in construction. My brother who was younger than myself was a truck driver. And my mother worked making sandwiches for the workers. So she worked at night. She took care of all the buying of the groceries. I didn’t do much except go to work. I worked in the administration building as a messenger the lowest paying job on the project I imagine. But everyone worked. I never heard a lot of complaining. I worked 6 days a week 9 hours a day. I brought home a check for $33.39. And I didn’t have anywhere to spend it. I didn’t even want to drink Coke on the Coke breaks. It was more Cokes then than it was coffee. Coffee was rationed. And my younger brother polished shoes for the men and carried groceries for the women and did odd jobs. So everyone worked. And one time I got bored so what did I do? I waxed the floor 3 times in one day. (Laughter) Which wasn’t a big area. MARYLEE: I’m Marylee Hall which my husband just spoke to. We came as he said in ’48 with a 4 month old baby. Moved into a 16 foot trailer. Bob worked shift work. It was great fun trying to keep the baby quiet during grave yard. But what I disliked the most was staying in that 16 foot trailer by myself all day long. It was not fun. We lived in the trailer court until a week before Christmas. Moved into a great big ranch house with no money to buy furniture from a 16 foot trailer. It was fun. And everybody was in the same shoes so we had lots of fun. We knew all of our neighbors. And if we didn’t know them we met them when the wind blew which was garbage day. We had to go out and find our garbage. (Laughter) TERRY: This is great. What I would like to do is think about a typical day in the trailers. I visited the trailer that we have out here in the parking lot. MARYLEE: It’s big. TERRY: It’s big? BOB: Oh yeah! NANCY: I think ours was bigger than that. That’s got 2 rooms actually. That’s got a private bedroom. TERRY: I guess that was luxury. Ok. Well one of my first thoughts as I noticed our Curation staff has hung a little rubber duck in the doorway to remind people to duck as you go in because the ceilings and the doorway are so low. Any stories about that sort of thing? NANCY: I can tell you one. My dad built our trailer. We had a furniture factory in Champagne-Urbana Illinois which was a university town. And he was quite a craftsman so he built our trailer for hobbies. For going fishing and stuff. I brought a little picture of it which I thought was kind of interesting. The doorway was pretty low because dad went up to Chicago and got things like ice boxes and stoves and sinks and things like that so the door was standard at that time. However when we decided to move around with it and we had all kinds of people in there as company everybody bumped their head so my dad raised the ceiling of the trailer. He took the center panels you know like where the lights are and took it up like the old fashioned railroad cars. He put the long skinny lights along the side you know that you could open up for ventilation and let in day light. You still had to duck to go in but at least you could stand up. (Laughter) ANITA: Well I’m going back to the Hanford days. There was so many trailers and then there was a bath house. The women were on one side and the men were on the other side. There were several wash basins and several stools and several showers on each side. And then at the far end was a laundry. And it had the concrete tubs to rinse in. And my mother and dad bought an old square Maytag with a ringer. They put it in the bathhouse where we went. Put out a coffee can and …you used the washer you put some money in. I don’t know how much they paid for it but that was living in the trailer. And behind us there was a young woman. She had twins. And she had at the end of her trailer, I don’t know how we slept, but at the end of her trailer she had bunks for her babies. And after a while my father built a lean-to on to the trailer and I bought a daybed and I slept outside on that daybed. And I bought a good wool blanket when it started getting cold. Of course my husband was wounded the second time before the Battle of the Bulge. So I left and I guess my brother slept there after that. When you got a notice that your husband was wounded they didn’t bring the telegram to your house. There was no telephones. So I went to work and I was at work a few minutes and they came and told me…called me to the front and gave me the telegram. And I had dreamed the night or two before that I had that telegram in my hand. So I just tore it open and looked to see if it was seriously wounded or killed because I knew it was one of the two. And it was seriously wounded. I went back and because I had ditto ink I time stamped everything that came in on the project. And I had ditto ink on my arms so I went to the closest restroom to gather myself together a little bit and to wash my arms. I took off my watch my husband had given me before we was married and I forgot to pick it up and of course I never did get my watch back. But it didn’t bother me at all and that day I did the work of 3 people because the other 2 were absent. So I didn’t take even 15 minutes off from the job. And then after he came back he got well enough out of the cast and everything. He was wounded through the knee and was in a body cast and in the hospital in England. And when he got well enough they sent him to the United States on the Queen Mary. And I quit my work and went to be with him. I guess that finished my job at Hanford. But anyhow we came back then in ’47 and lived in Richland. We moved in with my parents and younger brother. They had a two bedroom pre-fab. We had one baby by then and was expecting the second one. Then here came my aunt and uncle to that two bedroom pre-fab. So my mother put in for a larger house and she got it. But whenever you are doing what you need to do you can take a lot of inconveniences and still enjoy life. And of course when you are young as I was then nothing mattered but just enjoying life. TERRY: One of your comments brought up something that I hadn’t even thought about. It’s not on my list but keeping in touch with other people. Obviously there were no telephones for the trailers. MARYLEE: The telephones on that… there was a public telephone hooked on to the bathhouse when we got there in North Richland. ANITA: I never had anyone to talk to. I didn’t use the phone two times I don’t imagine. TERRY: Did you have a comment about keeping in touch with someone? To me not having a phone is unheard of. MARYLEE: I bet you can’t imagine not having any scotch tape either. (Laughter) TERRY: Boy do I feel special. (Laughter) ANITA: In my job as a messenger when there wasn’t anything to timestamp I wasted scotch tape. I didn’t even know there was such a thing as scotch tape before I came here. MARYLEE: There was lots of life without scotch tape. ANITA: When I lived in the trailer court I was married and I wasn’t interested in any one area or social thing at all. My best girlfriend was a 16 year old girl and we’d go out on the swings. At the end of the park they had a children’s playground and I’d swing in the swing. And a few times my dad took the car and we went to Yakima. I went there when I was hunting for shoes. I wore out my shoes so I had to have some shoes. I went over to Pasco and Kennewick and then went to Walla Walla. And I went to Yakima and finally found some shoes. And they were red and I felt like the whole world was looking at my red shoes. Of course they weren’t. I had little feet and they just didn’t have them. And shoes were rationed too. TERRY: What about storage? Thinking of shoes and thinking of you know all of the things what about storage? Where did you put things? NANCY: You didn’t have very many things like we do today. You know we crave things and we store things and I fight trying to find a place for things everyday. There wasn’t a whole lot of room there really wasn’t. Let’s go back about communication and mail. I think it’s kind of interesting very few people were here as early as I was. Very few people know about the first post office at Hanford that we had. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Nancy you said you came in February ’43. Before the people had received the notices to leave. They received notices in March of ’43. Did you end up staying in Pasco when you first came? NANCY: We ended up staying on the street on Park Street in Pasco. My dad brought his crew. And I think it was late February. It was getting close to the first of March. They had absolutely no place to put us in Hanford. They had no idea what they were going to do. They were just expecting a lot of people. So they parked us I think it was 5 trailers my brother says 4 but there was 5 trailers and they parked us underneath the big trees. If you know what Park Street in Pasco looked like then there were huge big trees. And that’s where we spent a week or two until they got a place to put us. And they moved us into what was the little tiny city park in this little old farm community town at Hanford. The park was a little speck of grass. And at the end of it was kind of a deck with an outdoor screen. And that’s where they got together and watched movies or whatever they had to watch in the outdoor theaters at that point in time. But that’s where we stayed and they then knocked down all the big houses all around us with the big cranes with the balls and scooped them up and built that big trailer court around us. It was dirty. There was lots of wind. It was a dry desert. There was no water. One of the times a big sand storm you couldn’t see the trailer next to us and we were parked close together. But storage was not very much. You want me to tell you about the normal morning in the trailer? TERRY: Yes that would be a good idea. NANCY: There was 6 of us and as soon as we got situated dad usually put up this thing like a deck. Then it was kind of like a little cabin pretty small. And he built the framework for bunk beds and went out and bought a couple of twins and that’s where the boys stayed. That’s where they slept and we got to store a few things and that’s where a little coat closet was built. We didn’t know how long we were going to be here so you didn’t put a lot of money into that stuff. But the typical morning of getting up and getting ready for school. Everybody up with the alarm clock. 4 of us kids grabbed our towels, our soap, our toothbrush and some cloths and headed for the bathhouse. We had to be out of there because where we were sleeping was the breakfast table and the 2 benches to sit on. Once we got out of there mom and dad could get up because you came in the front door and you had about that much room you had to walk sideways to get to their bed. If you had to get up in the middle of the night you were in trouble. You had about a foot space between the edge of their bed and the kitchen cupboard. You used to shinny out of there and go to the bath house. When we got back in every morning you cooked and washed dishes in a thimble because the sinks were so small. Hot soapy water wash cloths washed off the table and the counters because of all the changing of cloths and the dust and lint. Everything had to be scrubbed every morning before you could even think of getting food out and fixing breakfast. So by the time we’d get back all the beds would be made up and mom would have the breakfast started and the floor swept after everything was all scrubbed. So that was our beginning every day. Like I said they really built that trailer park around us because we sat on that piece of land which was the only piece available out there. Believe me it was awhile before any other trailers started coming in. When they did we started getting a community and things like that. The first mail was to General Delivery. General Delivery was a shack like with a lean-to. So like when you go to the carnivals they raised up the front of it and you put a 2 by 4 underneath it and you stand up there and ordered your hot dogs and whatever. The mail was General Delivery in alphabetical order. You had like 4 lines so the alphabet was divided into 4 lines. Whichever you were was where you stood. They just had a box of cubby wholes back there. You gave them your name and they looked and sorted through the Ms to see if you had any mail and gave it to you. They did that every day. You knew when the mail came in. You knew when to go stand in line to go get your mail. TERRY: What about this is going to sound so bad. I take care of the inside of the house and my husband takes care of the outside. What kind of division of chores did there need to be in order to keep the trailers maintained? I’d like to get a male perspective on that. BOB: Neither the inside or the outside amounted to much. I do remember building a dug walk so that we didn’t have to wade across the mud to get to the bath house. We didn’t move in until September and it rained in the fall. As a matter of fact in ’48 it got cold. That was the last winter it really got cold. It was 20 below. TERRY: What was your heating system? BOB: I don’t remember what we heated with. It must have been propane. But I don’t remember. It could have been oil. But I don’t remember at all. It was so small it didn’t take a whole lot of heat to heat it. TERRY: What about anchoring the trailer? Obviously you’re not going to build a foundation. How did you keep it from shifting and rolling when there was 3 people in it? BOB: Yeah I think it was on jacks or blocks of some kind. Ours was a small camping trailer and it actually had wheels. But they must have had concrete or something to set on. We had storage a plywood box on the back of our property for storage. You know we didn’t have much so storage wasn’t much of a problem. You don’t have anything you don’t have to worry about storing it. NANCY: In that second trailer court didn’t everybody have a storage compartment in the back of their lots? BOB: I’m pretty sure they did. Anita: At Hanford we didn’t have any. TERRY: You know I bet there are some people who aren’t aware that there were 2 different… BOB: Oh 2 different campgrounds? The Hanford Campground existed for the original construction in ’43 ’44. And it was at Hanford town site out north of Richland. And North Richland was where Battelle is now. As a matter of fact our trailer must have sat someplace not too far from where the Supply System offices are now. MARYLEE: We lived on B Street and A was the river. BOB: And in North Richland they had a school. It was on A Street. It was on the river side of the campground. West of George Washington Way there were some barracks. As a matter of fact I lived in barracks for about a month before Marylee came out. Then they had a bank a theatre. They had all kinds of facilities. Of course none of which exist now. A big fire house. Yeah they had stores. They had businesses. They had a trailer supply place that I used to go to buy parts. TERRY: So it sounds like a lot happened between the time you got here. I’m jumping all around here. I’m going to ask one more question then I’m going to see if anybody here has a question. What about the kids? What did they play with? My son would be absolutely devastated without his Game Boy. (Laughter) So what did they play with if you didn’t have much storage to bring toys? What did they do? NANCY: Well actually one thing I can tell you that I saw many kids do and the younger kids did in our family and they still have. The kids would take blocks of 2 by 4s. They’d find any piece of wood, hammer, and nails build some boats… find some mud puddles to float them in. You know we did get to go swimming in the Columbia River. We used to ferry across…now this is the ferry that most people don’t hardly even remember ever existed but we used to ferry across to pick fruit on the north side of the old Hanford. We used to ride the ferry a lot. And little kids could do that. The kids could go out…I was 13. I worked in the drug store making milk shakes. TERRY: You worked at 13? NANCY: Yeah At the little Hanford…yeah. Who cared? ANITA: My brother was 9 and he carried groceries for the women from the grocery store to the car. And they would give him a tip. And he’d polish shoes. He was working all the time. I don’t think he ever played. And went to school. There was the play ground at the end of the park for the younger kids but I don’t ever remember him being there. NANCY: If the kids could make a buck they did. And there was ways of making money out there. It was hot. People were thirsty. People worked commuting through the sand to go out to go to work. And they got off the buses and they walked to barracks. If you didn’t have family and a trailer you stayed in a barracks. The men in one and the women in the other. You used to see them holding hands through the fence a lot of times. But I was 13 my younger brother had to be about 10 ½ or 11 at the most. He and my older brother who was 15 and I brought an article where they interviewed my brother about the days at Hanford some of the stories that he remembered because he was a little older than me. But my younger brother they used to buy Nestles Orange all kinds of pop put it in a big old fashioned wash tub with ice. Chill it down…stand out there where the people were walking buy commuting. They’d make $50.00 in a day just in nothing flat till they were out of pop. And my older brother was 15. Right up here at the Jackpot was the first gas station in this town. ANITA: That’s where you had to stop before you could go out to Hanford and they took your guns and your camera. NANCY: And the only way to get gas was right there. And when gas came in they trucked the gas in 55 gallon barrels. And covered it in the barrels to keep it cool and watered it down until they could get it into the pumps. You had to wait like 3 blocks long was the line in order to get gas. And it was rationed. You could only buy so much. There was no such thing as filling up your car like he said in his article. He was offered $100.00 just to give somebody a tank of gas. Those days kids found things to do to keep themselves pretty busy. And if there was a buck to be made…shining shoes, doing anything, running errands for somebody, going to the grocery store for somebody that couldn’t. There was a lot of work. I think kids in those days didn’t know a lot about play. BOB: One of the other things that kids did to entertain themselves was to play games. These kids that are playing computer games and all other things they are not playing with other kids. But it was more common for children to play with other children. We used to play kick the can. TERRY: I imagine that kids you wouldn’t have to worry about them wanting to stay inside. They would want to get outside. The trailers would either be too hot or too cold. No air conditioning. So probably it would be more fun to be outside with a bunch of other kids and go do something than to stay inside. There was nothing to do inside. Scissors, coloring books, crayons. Do we have any questions in different areas? AUDIENCE MEMBER: We interviewed a gal that was talking about how much time she had spent standing in lines to buy stuff. And she would have the older child baby sit the younger one when they got back. She said many days it was 6 to 7 hours of standing in line to get stuff. NANCY: Yeah that’s very true. Everything was rationed. We saved all the aluminum foil off of packages of cigarettes. Talking about buying stuff and having things available. We used to save we gathered the aluminum foil off cigarette packs. Back in those days anyone who smoked the cigarettes were wrapped in paper lined aluminum foil. You could turn that in for a buck or two. Everything was rationed. My mom used to go out and find farmers that raised rabbits and buy rabbits and fresh chickens. When we came up here from California shoes were rationed. My dad built this trailer and we had a little wheel on the front of it. It was a 23 footer but the front of it was to be a bathroom which never really got completed. And so it was storage. It was a place to pile stuff. It had a window to the front and a window through the inside wall so it took up a lot of room. So the actual living in part was only like 18 feet. Shoes were rationed in California. When we came up we came through L.A. and we couldn’t get tires. We had blown out tires on the trailer and we couldn’t get tires. They sent us to a tire place and then another one and another one. And we actually ran into a black man who was on the radio show. I’m forgetting what his name was right now. But he was really known at that time. He worked at this tire store. They went out and bought 2 of those great big metal wheelbarrows that were heavy duty that construction outfits did. They took the tires off them and put them on the front dolly of our trailer because that was the only way we could get those tires. And when we were coming to Hanford to work on the Hanford Site and it was a government project we had priority. We had priority for gas getting up here. We had priority for tires getting up here. TERRY: But this was even before people knew? NANCY: My dad came with his crew and he was in the position where they were looking for him. So I think that’s why he knew about it early. ANITA: And when my folks came. I mean when my mother came with the trailer my brother was just out of high school and we had some flat tires. And there was a time when that trailer was sitting clear down on the ground without any tires on it at all. She stopped in Cheyenne and got new tires and when she got out here at this new gas station what she was concerned was afraid that she had too many tires in the car. They were all wore out mostly but they were still tires and that was what she was concerned about. And when we got here we was running on an inner tube which used to be inside tires. I don’t know how my brother got that trailer up off of the ground. I couldn’t have done it. TERRY: With the other trailer court was there the same problem with standing in line and with difficulty of services? MARYLEE: I don’t remember ever standing in line for anything. ANITA: Well they’re talking about the first days in Hanford. MARYLEE: Alright but this 5 years later is what I’m talking about. TERRY: Because in 5 years a lot changed. ANITA: My dad stood in line to get mail in that little tiny place. But that was all taken care of before we came. I don’t ever remember getting any mail. We didn’t write letters. NANCY: They eventually put in a big theater out there and a big Rec. Hall and the adults had you know like Bing Crosby and Bob Hope Big Bands Anything to keep people entertained. ANITA: They put up a big auditorium and one place in the books it says 10 days and in another it says 12 days. They put up a big auditorium and there are pictures of the decorations for Christmas in ’43 or ’44 I think it was. TERRY: Do we have any other questions? AUDIENCE MEMBER: Ok life was a little bit tough over there some times and so how the government did things for you they based what they were doing for amenity purposes based off how long they would actually have you stay there for awhile. Do any of you have any stories about any of the amenities they brought in? You know like you said the theater and things of that nature. And did it really make a difference to keep you there. NANCY: In these pictures of the trailer camp like in ’44 people were coming and going with the dirt storms and stuff a lot of people didn’t stick around. They would come fast and leave faster. They did all kinds of things to try and keep them. Of course once they got into Richland and they got into the housing that was different because they even furnished the coal in a lot of the housing. We lived really close to the office of the original 1944 trailer court. We were the first ones in and we were one of the first ones out and we were also close to the big Rec. Hall. We could hear the big bands playing being outside on a summer night. They had dances all those big bands everything you could think. Everything was long buildings kind of like barracks like the drug stores. Best that I can remember I remember the drug store. I don’t remember a whole lot about the grocery store but there were lines everywhere. There were lines for everything. The big mess halls had all kinds of great food. I was in them. I know my brother worked in one of them. You didn’t go hungry. They fed you very well. ANITA: I have a pamphlet that was sent all over the country trying to get people to come out here. And it says…What will my rent be? You will either stay in a hutment or a barracks at $1.40 a week. This includes janitor service, your bed is made, your room is cleaned every day and the linens are changed once a week. The wash room in each barracks has a wash basin and plenty of hot water, showers, and toilets. Is the food good? You won’t get fancy food but it’s wholesome food for hardy men. You will eat in the mess hall family style. You always get plenty to eat. The meal tickets for 21 meals is $12.98 but they punch your meal ticket every time you go in. They made the sandwiches for the workers to take out on the job every morning. And that’s what my mother did was fix the sandwiches. MARYLEE: I was going to suggest that after we moved into town in the ranch house we had lots of things. The rent, the coal, and the phones everything was very low priced. We paid about $50.00 for rent including we heated with coal. They delivered the coal. Even after we moved into town it was ’48. AUDIENCE MEMBER: When they came along with all the trees how many trees did they let you get? MARYLEE: They even planted them. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Especially since what happened is they bulldozed them all down. There was grass and green and everything and them it became dirt. ANITA: The big trees along George Washington on that first street you could have all the trees you wanted but you had to plant them yourself. And my brother he was a teenager by then and so he helped the neighbors plant their trees. But to go back to how they got people to come here. They would go around the country getting people to come and build the barracks and everything and of course we didn’t know what we were doing. Security of course was #1 after they found out what we were doing here. They would advance your transportation money to your last job. And then each week they would take out a bit. And if you stayed for 4 months you received a check for that amount. If you stayed another 3 months you got another check for that amount. So they paid your transportation both ways if you stayed 7 months. They didn’t want you to go back. People did quit by the thousands. NANCY: Going back to the very very early days when we came. Most of you probably know there was a little town of White Bluffs. It was farther on up the river and farther west. We had to go to White Bluffs for ice because in the trailer was an ice box. It looked very nice. It looked like a refrigerator. There were no electrical units in it. It was ice. And also to the drug store. If you were sick and needed medicine or needed anything from the drug store you went to White Bluffs. Fred English Drug Store was the name of the one in White Bluffs. And you probably know the Juvie here is named Fred English Center and as I understand it is named after Fred English from the old White Bluffs days. TERRY: You said something earlier that caught my attention you said it was fun. MARYLEE: It was the first home that we had. My husband was in college until June of that year. And then I came out a month later with the baby. And so it was our first little house for a 16 foot trailer. I can remember going to Portland for a friends wedding and I painted the floor of the kitchen area and then we got in the car and left to go to Portland. It would dry while we were gone. ANITA: Everyone was interested in winning the war. They weren’t thinking about their personal comfort and if they did they went home. When Richland first started there wasn’t anyone here. People if they got sick or died they went back home. Everybody was young and this was when the baby boomers came along. Richland had the highest birth rate of anywhere in the nation in ’46 ’47 ’48. A lotta fun! BOB: Yeah the average age of the population was fairly young. So indeed when Richland was first built the families were of a child bearing age. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Isn’t it now known as the fastest growing retirement area? BOB: There is a lot of those old people that are still here. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Were there doctors for the people that were having babies and things like that? BOB: Oh yes there were doctors. In North Richland there was a standard Army hospital. Well Kadlec Hospital in Richland was modeled after an Army hospital. There were doctors and they were enticed by the same kind of enticements that they used for the construction workers. And I’m sure there were a lot of them that came and went because of the conditions. AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have a question I guess because I didn’t look at the pictures that closely. Did everyone bring their own trailer or were there some provided? BOB: We didn’t. We bought one that was here. We bought one that somebody had moved out of and moved back home. That wasn’t uncommon. AUDIENCE MEMBER: So when you first say you were going to come here you didn’t have something already set up for a place to live? BOB: We came here from college. We didn’t have anything! The clothes on our back that was about it. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Did you buy the trailer or did you just rent it? BOB: Yeah had to buy it…paid $700.00 for it which was a lot. ANITA: My dad said if you come to bring the house because there’s none to buy. BOB: Yeah in the town of Richland you couldn’t live here if you did not have a job on the project. And as a matter of fact some friends of ours he retired. When he was older he had to move to Kennewick. You absolutely couldn’t live in town. I would hear stories about people you know needing security to get across the Yakima River. It was that tight. NANCY: One of the things I was thinking about …talking about people and friends and what you did. Like we said before everybody was in the same boat when people came. Some of the cartoons and some of things that you can probably remember seeing was “Hanford or Bust!” You had everything. You had people from all walks of life. Some who had enough money to buy a trailer when they could find one to buy. Trailers weren’t really that plentiful in those days. Trailers were actually camping and recreational and they were expensive in those days. A lot of people made buses into trailers. You’d be surprised at how many old school buses and different kinds of buses were converted into trailers…something they could live in. They could put a kitchen and stuff in there. What was really fun was that people lived so close together that you knew everybody. Everybody was in the same boat. But you got acquainted with so many people. I can remember to this day a couple by the name of Helen and Clyde Dresser that came in here shortly after we did and lived really close to us. They had a little girl. I can remember the Phillips that lived next door to us that were from Arkansas. Everybody came from somewhere. Their cooking techniques were different. We loved to cook and have commune dinners with the Phillips because being from Arkansas her food was good. It was fattening but it was good. We were learning about different types of food that different people had. There weren’t outdoor bar-be-ques in those days that I can remember. I was trying to remember what we heated our trailer with and then in this interview that my brother had stated that it was kerosene. I can remember that underneath the cook stove was a door that opened. We used a pump. So I’m thinking it must have been a kerosene of some kind. But I can’t remember any kerosene fumes or anything like that. I really don’t remember a heater. We didn’t have electric heaters that I know of. All I can think of is that mom just turned on the burner of the stove or left the oven door cracked open. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Was there propane in the ‘40s? There is a propane tank on that trailer. NANCY: In the late ‘40s I know there was. But I don’t know about the early ‘42s ‘43s. I can’t remember when those trailers started getting propane. You guys had propane didn’t you in ‘47 ‘48? BOB: I don’t remember. We must have had. AUDIENCE MEMBER: The furnace in the trailer is named DuoTherm so it sounds like it runs on 2 possible fuels. So I was wondering about maybe oil and gas. NANCY: I remember there was but I don’t remember what year that was. AUDIENCE MEMBER: When I was a kid my dad worked on road construction and we lived in a trailer. We had a kind of a crew that went with us so the people were familiar. We did a lot of things together as families. We cooked together. We played cards a lot. Did that go on too there? BOB: You talked to your neighbor. You jolly well better. You didn’t have anybody else to talk to. AUDIENCE MEMBER: What if you didn’t like them? Did that happen? NANCY: I suppose so. But you had a whole lot of them around you that you could find ones that you did. MARYLEE: We lived next door to a family. Their trailer was a lot longer than ours. They had the grandma and grandpa and at least 2 couples with 3 or 4 children and they were hollering “Shut up!” to those kids constantly. We never said shut up to our children after that. We were not friendly to that couple they were too busy with their family. But I didn’t want to be anyway. ANITA: I don’t remember any neighbors. I was just working and being myself. NANCY: I think it’s interesting about what a small parcel of land that you had. Because you talk about inside or outside we didn’t have lawns. If you walked outside of your trailer we had like what’s in front of this trailer out here. You had a wooden walkway. It was like a deck. So for water or rain whatever you could hose it down. We had such a small piece of land it was interesting to see what people would do with their little piece of land. The fences and arches and they would whip into Pasco somewhere and buy some roses and plant some rose bushes. Some of them were just like doll houses. They were just adorable. Some of those women were so neat you could eat off their floors. They were scrubbing them all the time. They were real cute and others were not quite so cute. (Laughter) TERRY: What about water? Were there water lines hooked up to the trailers? So it wasn’t like having to go sluck buckets of water from some where? NANCY: The best I can remember was garden hose hooked up to a water facet. It came up to the side of the trailer. You didn’t pipe it. We used a garden hose. BOB: We were up town. We had copper pipe. We also had a grey water drain from the kitchen sink. NANCY: That’s what they learned from the first one to the second one. MARYLEE: Our trailer had a round front with benches and storage under the benches. ANITA: You had washcloth and towel if you had a bathrobe you were doing good. TERRY: So I don’t imagine you could do wash every single day. So you wouldn’t have anywhere near the closets full of clothes that we have today. So thank you so much for coming. I hope you get a chance to hang out for a little while and be sure to see the museum also. Thank you. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:58:25 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Trailer Talk (Inside) Description An account of the resource A group oral history detailing experiences of living in trailer camps in Hanford and the Tri-Cities area during WWII and the late 1940s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/2/2002 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A / T.2010.052.023 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e771ead86a8c66d2d01355065f2e7c9.mp4 66705502c476202330e7a8d568187991 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Terry Andre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Betty Dietz, Marylee Hall, Bob Hall, Viola Baker, Nancy Minhear Simons Location The location of the interview CREHST Museum Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound ORAL HISTORY PROJECT TITLE: Trailer Talk - 2 Outside the Trailer INTERVIEW DATE: May 9, 2002 INTERVIEW LOCATION: CREHST MUSEUM INTERVIEWER: Terry Andre INTERVIEWED: Betty Deitz, Marylee Hall, Bob Hall, Viola Baker, Nancy Minhear Simons TRANSCRIBER: Robert Clayton TERRY: Today we are focusing on living in the trailers. Actually I want to talk about activities outside the trailer because last week we talked about activities inside the trailer and how small it is so I’m assuming a lot of things…life experiences happened outside the trailers. So what I would like to do is go through and have you introduce yourselves, tell us when you came here, and what sort of trailer you lived in. BETTY: I’m betty Deitz. I lived in a trailer at Hanford. I don’t remember what kind of trailer it was. I lived with my parents and my sister and her husband lived in another trailer close by. She had 3 little children and we both rode the bus lot. That’s how I met my husband. My husband was a bus driver in the trailer camp. TERRY: What year was this? BETTY: ’42 and ’43 MARYLEE: I’m Marylee Hall and we didn’t come until 1948 so we were in the other camp. Which is just North Richland Camp is what I supposed they called it. We had a 4 month okd baby so we didn’t get outside a lot. Except I did a lot of walking because that was about all there was to do. Our trailer was 16 foot so with 3 people it wouldn’t have held another one. BOB: Yeah I came with her. We came in ’48 after the flood. TERRY: Why did you come here? BOB: Oh I graduated from college. This was my first job. I just graduated from college. It took me 8 years to get through college. I had a little trip through Europe. I had to finish that government supported trip through Europe. I graduated from college and this was my first job. I came out here and you talk about the outdoors everything North of Pasco was either wheat or sagebrush. We took a bus ride to Yakima and there was some more sagebrush. I thought this was the end of the world and I’m not sure what Marylee thought. VIOLA: My husband came to work here. He was a mechanic and a glass cutter. He worked 10 hours a day and we lived in al little dinky 16 footer including the trailer hitch. And I had 2 girls ane 9 and Suzy was just a year and a half but she was a busy body. She visited everybody she could. She was so friendly and everybody loved her. Joanie went to school just half a day. She would go early in the morning and come home at noon and take care of Suzy while I went to the grocery store. I had to go every day. The trailer was so small we just had a small ice box for the milk and butter and meat and stuff like that so I had to go to the store everyday. And go to the post office and then was the longest lines. In fact I’d stand in line and I wouldn’t know where I was by the end of the day. Like I’d go there as soon as Joanie come home. TERRY: And how old was your older daughter? Was she in kindergarten? VIOLA: She was nine. She was in the fourth grade. TERRY: So they only went a half day? VIOLA: Yes. It was still dark when she left for school. It was a big school and everybody went there. TERRY: And what year was this? VIOLA: We came out September 17, 1943. And then we lived there 14 months. And then we had to get out. They wouldn’t live in the trailer camp anymore. So we moved to Kennewick. And we lived in a government trailer they wouldn’t let us live in our own trailer. It was in a big covered yard and a high fence but it didn’t help because somebody came in my trailer and took my little sink off. Just tore it off the wall and just took it. TERRY: Now you said a couple of things that made me think of something that I want to ask the others about also. Ok? You mentioned about your daughter going to school a half day. Was that something they had to do because the schools were so crowded they had to do half days? And did that happen with you also? BOB: No our son was 3 months 4 months old so he didn’t go to school. TERRY: So you weren’t in the trailer court long enough for the school to…? BOB: That’s true. There was a school in North Richland. What was it…John Day? John Ball that’s it John Ball in North Richland. I have no idea but it was crowded because everything was crowded. TERRY: Do you remember anything about the schools? BETTY: My brother and sister went to school. They rode the bus into Richland to go to school. In ’43. TERRY: Afterwards Viola has brought some pictures and maybe we can spread them out and you can tell us about them. Another question that came up while you were talking. The feeling of neighborhood. It sounds like having kids made it easier to make friends. Why don’t we talk about the feeling of nationhood and community. BETTY: It was very small. It was just lots….trailer-trailer-trailer. TERRY: So you got to know your neighbors quickly? BOB: You shared the showers. You shared the bathrooms. You shared the laundry. You shared everything. BETTY: And you stood in line for everything. The grocery store, mail, the bank, the drugstore everything you stood in line for. TERRY: That was another one of the questions I had. About standing in line I heard people spent a lot of tome standing in line. Viola mentioned that she went every day to grocery shop. Was that what you experienced too? MARYLEE: We ha a little refrigerator. NANCY: You had a refrigerator? MARYLEE: Oh yes. BETTY: She was in the other trailer court. TERRY: Did you have An ice box? Could you explain because we have some young people probably have never seen one. BETTY: Well it was built insulated and everything so that it stayed cold but there was a place in there thaat they put a block of ice. And there was always a drain and you always had to empty the pan underneath. And replace the ice. VIOLA: We didn’t have to buy our ice. It was a block of ice. TERRY: The government provided the ice? We are talking about ice boxes and neighborhoods. MARYLEE: I think we were a little more uptown than that because we did have an electric refrigerator. It was very small and didn’t hold much so I got out and went to the grocery store every day too. At least you could get out. TERRY: What about families where both mom and dad worked? I’m sorry introduce yourself NANCY: Sorry I’m late I got hung up on a business deal. My name is Nancy Simons. I came here in February 1943 which was very early. And we were in of course the very first trailer court. And talking about ice in the days when we came we had to drive to White Bluffs to buy ice. Later I think I think they did have a place there where we could buy ice. MARYLEE: This lady was one of the first ones in the camp ground. BETTY: Pretty much before they gave the letters of condemnation. NANCY: There were still people here I mean in the houses in this area. There were still people living in the houses when we were there. You know it was very sad to be living in a very small trailer, much smaller than the one out here, and watch them with big cranes hanging off those big machines drop those heavy balls on those gorgeous old farm houses 2 and 3 stories porches all around sleeping porches and all the greenery and shrubbery everywhere. And they destroyed those houses because they had to. But there bikes and wagons and chickens and all kinds of stuff when we came here that had been left. And the people were just barely moving out. TERRY: One of the questions I had was did you have any friends where both the mom and dad worked. And if so who stood in line? VIOLA: No my neighbors didn’t work. My next door neighbor she had 3 little girls. And she was a sweet girl and we were friends. In fact she needed a stove in her home made trailer. It wasn’t a boughten trailer. Ours was boughten and it had a little wood stove. But we didn’t want that because we couldn’t keep warm. Stay up all night and feed the little stove. So we got a Barnes oil heater from Seattle and the bus driver delivered our stove. And then the girl next door bought our trailer. She must have stayed up at night to feed that stove to keep her pretty little girls warm. But anyway we liked our Barnes in fact I still have the Barnes heater. No my daughter has it in her basement don’t you? (Her daughter responds “It’s in the garage”). It still works but we don’t use it. But it was a lot of experience believe me. But we managed. We ate well. We lived there and the next spring we couldn’t live there anymore. We had to move. Our trailer was put in a fenced in place. And we moved in to a government trailer and we lived there 5 months. And then after we got into Richland we moved in to a pre-fab. You know what a pre-fab is. They are remodeled now they look better. (Laughter) But we were happy to be there. We lived there 5 months and then we moved in to our “B” house. We bought the “B” house in fact I lived there 50 years in the “B” house. Until I moved to my youngest daughters she was my baby. And Joanie she went to Sacred Heart School in Spokane. And she was a registered nurse. She still lives there in Spokane. And her kids she had 3 kids. TERRY: Well you know I want try to get us back to the time of the trailer courts. When you came you were one of the first ones right? VIOLA: It was September 17th 1943. And I know the guards just didn’t tell us there was a lot of snakes there. It was kind of scary. But we lived there awhile. TERRY: Let me ask these other people about that. You bring up you just bring up the greatest topics. (Laughter) Ok snakes and other critters did you have any problem with them? NANCY: I don’t remember snakes I really don’t. By the time you came in September I think they had torn up so much sagebrush and so much more land. When we came we were in the little Richland town at Hanford. VIOLA: When we were in the temporary trailer they didn’t have toilets that worked. TERRY: So they didn’t have a bath house at the temporary one? VIOLA: No it was just a long trough underneath and they come and cleaned that every morning. But finally we moved in to a nice bath house. There was a bath house at the end of each lot. TERRY: What were the street names? VIOLA: I don’t remember the names I just knew where to go. TERRY: Let me see if others remember. I read something that indicated the street names were about like…oh they were just alphabet at that point oh ok. It has an address on it the ration book that you brought. One of the things that I had read was that some of the streets were named after war…There is a ration book right here if I may. This says section L block 3 lot 15. (Laughter) was there mail delivery or did you have to go to a central post office? NANCY: There was no, no, no mail delivery. That brings up the address though I forgot that. You were you were in block lot and all of that stuff. And I think the streets were alphabetical. MARYLEE: Our streets were A B C D because we lived at 47 D street I’ll never forget it. But the A was next to the river and it went towards George Washington. So we were really 2 blocks from George Washington. TERRY: There are stories of people going into the wrong alphabet house because everything looked the same. Did that ever happen with the trailers? BETTY: No because they weren’t the same. They didn’t look alike. TERRY: Betty could you describe what your neighborhood looked like? Your neighborhood of trailers. BETTY: Well like I said they were just one after another. Some of them had put up little fences. You know little picket fences around and some hadn’t. The trailer that we lived in was a used trailer. My mother and my brother and sister and I moved to Tacoma. That was as close as we could get from Denver. My dad came to work out here. And we moved to Tacoma and then finally got this trailer. Somebody left and he bought this trailer from somebody. And so then we lived in that trailer. Then my sister and her husband came and she had 3 little children. And I took care of the kids a lot. In fact my husband thought I was already married because I always had a child with me. (Laughter) TERRY: And this is you met him on the bus. You were taking kids places. BETTY: Yeah well we had to go to the post office and we had to go to the store. All of those things had to be done you know because nothing was delivered. TERRY: Do you remember any families that were like single parent or both parents worked? BOB: Wasn’t as common as it is now. Women did not work. MARYLEE: They didn’t work outside of the home. We’ll put it that way. BETTY: There was maybe a few waitresses MARYLEE: They weren’t married though. BETTY: No. The families lived in the trailers. Single people lived in the barracks. NANCY: Married adults without children lived in the barracks or working women. Most of the working women lived in the barracks. A lot of women were here by themselves. TERRY: It sounds like the mom’s job was to go stand in line somewhere. NANCY: Storage in those trailers was so limited. And they were so small. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:46:05 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Trailer Talk (Outside) Description An account of the resource A group oral history detailing experiences of living in trailer camps in Hanford and the Tri-Cities area during WWII and the late 1940s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/9/2002 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A / T.2010.052.029 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Faba9e97aec616830c9e42cff6516b56a.3gp b89a3f8cdd15172749d2c464df4b4727 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 57th Hanford-White Bluffs Reunion Subject The topic of the resource Reunions Description An account of the resource A video recording of the annual Hanford-White Bluffs reunion of former residents and descendants of those Euro-American communities removed from the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b5dfa17aa3a982f59261f799d8d1858.mp4 61b4ff36ef668527812a8deb699d7188 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CREHST Museum Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral History; Hanford Site; Richland, WA Description An account of the resource Oral Histories conducted at and collected by the Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science & Technology (CREHST) Museum. The CREHST Museum, closed in 2014, was dedicated to preserving the history of the Hanford Site and Richland, WA and held the Department of Energy's Hanford Collection. After closure of the CREHST Museum most records and archival holdings were transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project where they are now held. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CREHST Museum, Gary Fetterolf, Terry Andre Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All resources have consent transferred to Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Contact Hanford History Project for information on use and rights. Language A language of the resource English. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2-4A Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Hanford Site; Richland, WA Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-1990 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Oral histories originally conducted by, or collected by, the CREHST Museum. Property and rights transferred to Washington State University upon CREHST closure in 2014 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Washington State University's Hanford History Project. Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Earth Day Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D-4A / T.2010.052.039 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff021fda91151503938367cae661f0909.MP3 e051910f4a58e38bdefaabe11a9f71d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerry Saucier Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:19:07 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gerry Saucier Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Gerry Saucier conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B / A9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3a2159938bf5adbec2997449f3413105.MP3 b9f2b7d38588182ebbea1d32127e9524 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Greg Greger Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04:35 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Greg Greger Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Greg Greger conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. Michael was a Health Instruments Technician during WWII at the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/26/1998 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / A11 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c5d0f9c55b0a21ac1afc5e9c167f69b.MP3 080aa8c97209bdd58d1d911fbb6c0505 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hank DeHaven Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:57:16 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hank DeHaven Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Hank DeHaven conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. Michael was a Health Instruments Technician during WWII at the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/22/1999 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / A-12 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F60d17bf78d444c90a06fb76d798a772b.MP3 829d6c28249d224488654e6f3347f7bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas M. Clement and William P. McCue Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:19:54 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomas M. Clement and William P. McCue Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Thomas Clement and William (Bill) McCue conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. Thomas was a Instrument Supervisor and Bill a Process Supervisor during WWII at the Hanford Site. First half (roughly) of the interview is with Clement, last half with McCue. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/18/1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A / A-13 and A-14 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7bde11fdd93a338deeed123a94160e19.MP3 e6df19e08eccc34a6cd28589b46501fe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gene Weisskopf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tom Kelly Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:47:59 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tom Kelly Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Tom Kelly conducted by Gene Weisskopf for the B Reactor Museum Association as part of an interview series focused on the T Plant and writing a Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) document for the T Plant. Tom was a Control Room Shift Supervisor at startup of B Reactor and worked with Bill McCue at the Hanford Site Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/10/2000 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2d-4A / A-16 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8a570c4d1c3859e529969b9193026c54.mpg fa640f4ade5d15cdc272c71605446484 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bill Putnam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hope Amacker Location The location of the interview Federal Building, Richland, Washington Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p>Tom Putnam: Well, if you could start by just telling me your name and spelling your last name, and then tell me when you arrived, how you first heard about what your job was and how you got the job. Just a little background like that.</p> <p>Hope Amacker: Mm-hm. My name is Hope Amacker, A-M-A-C-K-E-R. I had never heard of a construction camp until I joined the Army. Before I finished my basic training, I was told that I was going to be assigned to the Manhattan Engineer District. I had joined the Air Force, so of course I was disappointed. I came through Oak Ridge, Tennessee and was indoctrinated there by Captain Scheidenhelm. And she then made it sound very important and exciting and told me that I was one of a few who were handpicked to work with the Manhattan Engineer District, and that I would be stationed where there was sand up to my boot tops and an hour-and-a-half away from snow skiing. So I had no idea where I was going. It was Richland, Washington.</p> <p>Putnam: That’s all they told you?</p> <p>Amacker: Hanford, Washington. That’s all they told us, that’s right. Well, when we got to Oak Ridge, she did say we’d be going to Pasco, Washington. But that was like the end of the world in 1943, to me, from Ohio. I’d never been further west than Chicago.</p> <p>Putnam: What was your job description, and how did you come out?</p> <p>Amacker: I came on the train. Spent five nights on the train coming out. Traveled with another girl who had been stationed at Oak Ridge. I came from Daytona Beach, Florida, where I had just finished my basic training. At Hanford, I worked in the transportation department. Then when I moved to Richland, I was in military intelligence—until we got a public relations officer. Then I went to work for public relations, and that’s what I did until the end of the war and after.</p> <p>Putnam: Do you remember the exact date when you arrived?</p> <p>Amacker: January 1^st of 1944.</p> <p>Putnam: That was pretty early.</p> <p>Amacker: That was early. We lived at Hanford in the barracks behind the barbed wire fence that everybody’s heard about.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh, yeah.</p> <p>Amacker: With a guard at the gate and tarred floors. We didn’t have any floor covering at all, so if we walked barefoot from our rooms to the shower, our feet were black.</p> <p>Putnam: How many women were in that complex?</p> <p>Amacker: I don’t really remember—oh, in the whole complex? I don’t know. In the WAC dorm there were probably 22 of us—or barracks, we called them then. They were dormitories after we moved to Richland. I did know at one time the number of women that were there, but I don’t remember now. There were a lot of us—a lot of women. But only one barracks of WACs.</p> <p>Putnam: And what was the job that the WACs did, basically? It was unusual to be a woman here, wasn’t it? I understand the ratio was pretty high—</p> <p>Amacker: There were a lot of women at Hanford, even though there were only a few of the WACs. We did a variety of things. Most of us were secretarial. Some of them worked in recreation—I remember one girl that did. And then after we moved to Richland, and the plants were constructed and were into production, the girls worked in the Areas, some of them did. I never did.</p> <p>Putnam: What was your job?</p> <p>Amacker: After we moved to Richland, it was, for a short time, in military intelligence, and then public relations for Lieutenant Milton Cydell. He was the public relations officer.</p> <p>Putnam: How much public relations was there to do? I understand the secrecy was—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, most of it was no public relations. And that was his job, to talk to all the newspapers, radio stations. And I can’t recall what he told them; he told them something very important was going on here, but there was no—we were keeping a lid on it. It was amazing, though, how you could go to Portland or Seattle and mention Hanford or Richland, and they had never heard of it. Even Walla Walla. They’d say, where’s that? Word didn’t get around. You just kept the lid on it. People didn’t talk. We were instructed not to talk about the Plant when we were traveling by train or car, whatever.</p> <p>Putnam: And people here didn’t know much either, did they?</p> <p>Amacker: No. Very few people knew what was going on. I don’t think any of the WACs did. Maybe one or two, but I doubt it. I don’t know. I’d say that none of them knew.</p> <p>Putnam: And what were conditions like when you got here?</p> <p>Amacker: Well, pretty rugged at Hanford. Nothing growing. Streets weren’t paved. And I’m sure you’ve heard about the termination winds. Every Thursday, it seemed we had a termination wind. We’d eat in the mess hall at Hanford. When we moved to Richland, we had a cafeteria, which is right across the street here from the Federal Building. It was pretty rough, pretty rugged.</p> <p>Putnam: I’m not—what was the chronology, how—I know Colonel Mathias came here to check out the—they did a survey and finally identified this as the ideal site, and then what happened after that?</p> <p>Amacker: Well, I think the first thing they did was build Hanford for a place to house the construction workers. Then they went to work on the plants. Then—of course, they had subcontractors doing Richland, building the dormitories and the first houses in Richland. I think I moved to Richland in March of ’45. So I was at Hanford over a year—a year and about three months.</p> <p>Putnam: So Hanford was a construction camp, but Richland was more the administrative center, is that correct?</p> <p>Amacker: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Hanford was the construction camp to get the plants built. When we came to Richland, I suppose there was still construction going on out in the Areas. But the bulk of the construction had left Hanford by the time—well, not when I left. I was one of the first of the WACs to leave Hanford. And I don’t recall now how long the Hanford Camp was in operation. I don’t think much past the summer of ’45.</p> <p>Putnam: No, the construction was pretty well done, actually by then.</p> <p>Amacker: Pretty well done, mm-hmm.</p> <p>Putnam: What was the camp itself like?</p> <p>Amacker: Rows and rows of barracks and the mess halls. We had a post office and a bank and a big recreational hall, which they built in 12 days. You’ve probably heard all that stories—the stories about all of that. It was dusty. Everywhere you looked, it was dusty. For recreation, we used to go across the river and picnic because there were more trees across the river than on this side of the river—on Sundays. We worked six days a week, so we really didn’t have much time to think about recreation. And we worked nine hours a day. So we were busy.</p> <p>Putnam: You were working for the Army then—I mean, in the Army. How did the—but the contractor was DuPont.</p> <p>Amacker: It was DuPont, mm-hmm.</p> <p>Putnam: So what were the relations like? How did that work?</p> <p>Amacker: Well, at Hanford, when I was at Hanford, I hardly knew who the contractor was. After we came to Richland, it worked very well. Colonel Mathias was at one end of the second floor in the Administration Building, and DuPont was at the other end. I worked next door to Colonel Mathias’ office. It worked very well. DuPont was a superb company. And Colonel Mathias got along with everybody; he didn’t have any problem with Army or civilians. He just did the job.</p> <p>Putnam: He was a heck of a guy, wasn’t he? We have about—</p> <p>Amacker: He was—when I think of him, I think of the old saying, there’s nothing so strong as gentleness. I never heard him raise his voice. He never was military, in the sense that if you were placing a telephone call for him to a lower ranking officer, most military men would insist you get that man on the line first. Colonel Mathias wasn’t like that. He wasn’t military or petty or—he just got the job done. He did what he came to do with very little fanfare.</p> <p>Putnam: He was pretty young for that position, too, wasn’t he?</p> <p>Amacker: He was. I think he was 34 when he came here.</p> <p>Putnam: And so you worked right in the same—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, our office, the public relations office, was next door to his. His secretary’s office was between us and his office. Sometimes I would relieve her. If she was away for a day or two, I would work in that office. So that’s how I got to know Colonel Mathias, and to appreciate his abilities. He was a superb man.</p> <p>Putnam: What do you think made him so effective?</p> <p>Amacker: Oh. I can’t—he was very unassuming. He knew what he was about. He knew his job. He knew what he had to do. And he just did it.</p> <p>Putnam: He must have had some good help, too.</p> <p>Amacker: He had some good help, he did. He had some good military help, and he had good relations with DuPont. DuPont actually built—did the work, but Colonel Mathias was the—well, he just oversaw everything. He made sure it was getting done.</p> <p>Putnam: Okay. The camp itself was a pretty rough and tumble place, wasn’t it—</p> <p>Amacker: It was.</p> <p>Putnam: --as far as the people. What kind of people were there?</p> <p>Amacker: All kinds. All kinds. The rec hall was all the entertainment you needed. You could just go to the rec hall and sit there and be entertained. Even the waitresses were colorful. We had one waitress that we called the Vitamin Girl. Closing time, she came around with juices—a huge tray of juices. And she’d give us the old, get your juices here! And then of course there were lots—I suppose there were a lot of fights. I always heard there were, but I never did see one. I never saw any—just—I didn’t see any brawling. Everybody had a good time. And you had to be seated to be served. So there was a lot of people waiting in the rec halls to find a seat. Because you couldn’t get a drink unless you were seated. And there was people from every walk of life at Hanford. 40,000—45,000 people were there at the peak of construction. And I have no idea how many came and went. They were coming and going every week.</p> <p>Putnam: Quite a turnover, I understand.</p> <p>Amacker: Big turnover.</p> <p>Putnam: How were they recruited, do you know?</p> <p>Amacker: They were recruited from just about all over the country I think. Because there were people here from everywhere. I think DuPont must have sent out recruiters. I don’t—of course the Army didn’t. They just took who they wanted from wherever they were stationed. I’m sure it was DuPont that—or maybe the construction contractors.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, it must have been—coupled with the fact that nobody really knew what was going on, what the Project was, what the scale of the construction was—it must have been pretty willy-nilly a lot of the time. Just—oh, we need 150 carpenters. Just according to demand. But on the other hand, it sounds like both the Army and DuPont were incredibly well-organized.</p> <p>Amacker: They were, they were. I think that the turnover was due mostly to housing and the dust storms. But men with families had a hard time finding somewhere for their families to live. They had a trailer court at Hanford. And some people lived in Prosser and Sunnyside and all the little towns like that. But I would say that’s the reason for the turnover, mostly, was housing and dust storms.</p> <p>Putnam: Just feeding that number of people [INAUDIBLE]</p> <p>Amacker: That was an experience, too. And entertaining.</p> <p>Putnam: Tell me about that. Tell me about the mess halls.</p> <p>Amacker: Who was it? Olympic Commissary Company had the mess halls. And we sat at long tables—the Army people always sat together, even though the military intelligence people were in civilian clothes, we still all sat at the table. When a bowl was empty, you held it up in the air, and the waitresses would come and refill them. And they—people complained about the food, but it was pretty good food. For that many people, when you consider, in wartime, I’m sure we were fed better than most people in the United States. Because we always had steaks. And we had a lot of something that was supposed to be chicken, and people would say that it wasn’t because it was too big. But it wasn’t as bad as we made it out to be. That was part of our—that was normal, to complain. That was just part of the scene. We used to—everything all snafu, you know.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, actually, in talking with people who were there, everybody remembers the food being very good.</p> <p>Amacker: At the time, we complained, because we thought we were supposed to. But in hindsight, it was wonderful. It was good food. We always had pies, always had meat, always had—I’m sure they had all the sugar they wanted, whereas other people were rationed. And Hanford had whatever it took to keep people working. That’s what they did.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, it’s true, I think of materials and it evidently had the highest priority.</p> <p>Amacker: I’m sure it did, mm-hmm. Even though we didn’t—we were told that it was very important, and that very few people in the United States knew. In fact, I was told only four people knew what was going on at Hanford, but I’m sure there were more than that—quite a few more than that. And we didn’t talk about our jobs. We were told not to, and we didn’t. The patriotism was so high in those days. It was unbelievable compared to the way the country is divided now. We were all on the same side—win the war, win the war. And we would have done whatever we were asked to do. And camaraderie was great. It was a wonderful experience.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, I think that’s part of why—part of what interests me in doing this documentary, is that I think it’s hard for a lot of younger people to understand that kind of solidarity.</p> <p>Amacker: I’m sure it is.</p> <p>Putnam: And the feeling of the war threat during the war, and how strong that must have been.</p> <p>Amacker: Mm-hmm.</p> <p>Putnam: I talked to my—I was born in 1945, so my parents were—and my parents were both involved in—my father was in the Air Force. So, of course when I was growing up, everybody talked about the war. But do you think there was a feeling—it’s hard to realize how extreme that must have been in 1943 when—</p> <p>Amacker: It was, it was. A Day’s Pay, for instance. That was a tremendous effort. For people to donate a day’s pay to buy an airplane. I don’t think you could get people to do that today.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, they’re probably doing it, but they’re not doing it voluntarily. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Amacker: Oh, well, right. Yeah, we’re all doing it. But not voluntarily.</p> <p>Putnam: Right.</p> <p>Amacker: Not actually seeing that deducted from your paycheck.</p> <p>Putnam: Requesting it.</p> <p>Amacker: I was telling my husband the other day—I really don’t know how I did it, but I bought war bonds on $21 a month. When we were married, I had bought enough war bonds to pay for our wedding. But I had my housing and my food, so that $21 was a good amount of money then.</p> <p>Putnam: Did people read the war news a lot and were pretty conscious of what was happening?</p> <p>Amacker: Yeah, yes. Yeah, we did. And when the story broke on what he had been doing, it was celebration time. It was just—well, it was just indescribable, the feeling of relief that it was over and that we had played the biggest part in ending the war. I have never for a moment thought about it being wrong. It was right. It was the thing to do as far as I’m concerned. And those of us—I would say, all of us who worked here would feel that way.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Amacker: He’s sitting over there.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh.</p> <p>Putnam: Okay, let’s see. Where was I? Well, we were talking about patriotism and—</p> <p>Amacker: Oh, yeah.</p> <p>Putnam: Do you recall getting the news, when you first learned—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, as I said, I was in public relations at that time. Prior to the—it was early spring, probably March. Bill Lawrence, who was a science writer, came to Richland, and he wrote the release for the day that the bomb would be dropped. I had not seen it before that day, though—before the day it was dropped. Even though I was in public relations, I had not seen it until we started releasing it. It was bedlam, the morning that—and my boss had told me that I might be called in to work at any time. And he didn’t say why; he just said, when this story breaks on Hanford, you may be called in to work at any time. Well, it was about 7:30 in the morning as I recall that I was called in. The phones were ringing, and it was just the two of us for the first three or four hours. And then we had a headquarters set up over at the transient quarters in those days—it’s now the Hanford House. And then we had more telephones and the radio people started coming in, and we get a lot more help in reading the releases. In those days, we didn’t have fax and all these wonderful things. We had to do it all by telephone. It was a very exciting, exhausting day. Long, long day. But there was such exhilaration with it—we were just high all day long, just giving out the releases.</p> <p>Putnam: And then that evening, did you celebrate?</p> <p>Amacker: No. No, we were—no. I think we were all too tired. And it wasn’t over. We had to get back to work the next morning, too. I can’t remember when we did start—really celebrate. There were lots of celebrations, but it wasn’t that first few days. We were too busy. That was exciting, though, meeting Bill Lawrence, who came out from New York. And I didn’t know why he was here; I just knew he was an interesting man.</p> <p>Putnam: Who is Bill Lawrence?</p> <p>Amacker: He was a science writer for the <em>New York Times</em>, I think. He’s the one that wrote the release for the story. So he knew all about it.</p> <p>Putnam: One of the few, probably, in the media circle.</p> <p>Amacker: I suspect the only one. Because it was ready on the day the bomb was dropped. We had that release and lots of copies of it. So he had to know sometime. I think he was here in the very early spring. So he had to have known what was going on.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you continue to live—when you were in the dormitory then—the barracks—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, when we came to Richland, we were in the dormitories right over behind the—oh, the building across from this Federal Building which was the cafeteria in those days. All of that area was dormitories—the women’s dormitories. And that’s where I lived in Richland. And then when I was discharged from the Army, of course, I—[COUGH]—excuse me—went back to Ohio. It rained every day for 30 days. And I’d had a job offer to come back here and work with the same man that I had worked with in the Army. So I came back, and the day I arrived I met my husband. So here I am, 50 years later.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you make a lot of friends, I mean, was there—</p> <p>Amacker: Oh, yes.</p> <p>Putnam: Tell me about the camaraderie.</p> <p>Amacker: Lots of friends. Both civilian and Army. We weren’t just our little clique of 22 or 24 WACs. We had lots of civilian friends, and we were treated very well. We weren’t made to feel inferior or that we were unimportant. We were made to feel that we were contributing. Oh, yeah. Lots of friends.</p> <p>Putnam: Essentially, it was just a huge construction project for the first part of the time so you had to—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, at Hanford it was essentially just construction. But then after we moved to Richland, it was different. It was becoming a town then. Because they’d built all of the AJ houses—no, not at that time, they hadn’t built the AJ houses. They came later. AJ is Atkinson and Jones. Before that—who built the houses? Most of them were in the south end of town. I remember all the letters of them that were in the south end of town. There were the A, B, Ds and Es and Fs and Ls. And then Atkinson and Jones built the other houses—the Ms and Qs and Rs, Ss.</p> <p>Putnam: There really wasn’t much here though at first, was there?</p> <p>Amacker: Nothing. Well, there were a few orchards. But there was no grass, no shrubs, no trees. Just dust.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you know any of the people who—did you meet any of the people from Hanford and White Bluffs who moved, and who owned land?</p> <p>Amacker: Yes. I knew the Weirs, who lived here, lost their homes, their land. And the Dams. There was a ranch out at West Richland—Snively Ranch. I didn’t really know them, but I knew the ranch—I knew where it was. They were pretty bitter. They felt that they had been robbed. Well, Annette Heriford. You know Annette.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah, we interviewed her.</p> <p>Amacker: She lived at Hanford—White Bluffs.</p> <p>Putnam: I’ve actually been to a couple of the reunions, yeah.</p> <p>Amacker: Have you?</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. And they—you know. Most people are pretty philosophical about it now.</p> <p>Amacker: Well, they are now.</p> <p>Putnam: But still—there’s some bitterness.</p> <p>Amacker: Still a little bitterness, yeah. I didn’t realize how little they were paid for their places until much later. At the time, I just—I knew how they felt, but I didn’t know a dollar figure on them. And since I’ve heard, I agree. They were certainly underpaid.</p> <p>Putnam: I guess some of them were able to appeal later and get a little more compensation but a lot of people--</p> <p>Amacker: Yeah, they didn’t get as much--</p> <p>Putnam: --didn’t know about it, so—</p> <p>Amacker: They didn’t get as much as the Japanese got 20 years later for going to the camps. They didn’t get anything like that. Which I think’s unfair. But it’s all over. That’s in the past.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. Let’s see.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Amacker: Well, we had good entertainment—when we were talking about entertainment at Hanford, I did forget we had big name bands come out there.</p> <p>Putnam: Do you remember some of the names of the bands?</p> <p>Amacker: Guy Lombardo was there and John Payne, the movie star. Oh, gee, who were some of the others? Then after we moved to Richland, we had Fats Waller and Jack Teagarden—you probably don’t remember them. That’s before you were grown up.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, my parents listened to that music.</p> <p>Amacker: Oh, yeah. Let’s see. Who else did we have? “Does Your Heart Beat for Me?” Whose theme song is that? Henry Morgan.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh, I don’t know that one. So there was quite an effort to—</p> <p>Amacker: Every effort was made, really, to keep people happy and to keep them on the job. That was the big thing: keep them on the job. And another thing DuPont stressed was safety. I was really impressed with their safety program. And we did have a minimum of accidents, I think. I don’t remember any figures, but I’m sure we—it was a minimum.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, it was quite a time in history.</p> <p>Amacker: It was. It was very—it was an experience that I’m glad I was able to be in on it—take part in it. I don’t think there’ll ever be that same strong feeling of patriotism and camaraderie that we experienced. And it kind of keeps us all tied together. When you see somebody from the old days, you are truly happy to see them. It was just a great experience.</p> <p>Putnam: Gosh, I want to ask so many questions, I don’t know—it’s—let me think.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: --Colorful characters who are—I mean, I think of the famous people like Colonel Mathias or—you must have met quite a lot of the top brass, then.</p> <p>Amacker: I knew most of them. Not well. Oh, I should have told you—when I came out here from basic training, I told you I stopped in Oak Ridge and was indoctrinated. Then we got on the train in Knoxville to come out here, and the president of DuPont was on the train—Mr. Carpenter. He invited my traveling companion and I—her name was Libby Woods—to come have a happy New Year’s drink with him in his compartment. And he told the MPs that he’d invited us and he left the door open. He was a real gentleman of that era. We exchanged family pictures and had a nice visit and a nice New Year’s eve drink. That was a highlight, just meeting him. He was a lovely man. I can’t remember any other—well, I remember when Fermi visited here. He came by the name of Farmer. Oh, gee, there were a lot of—Dr. Coolidge, who was the father of x-ray. The thing I remember most about him were the burns on his hands from x-ray. Let’s see, who else?</p> <p>Putnam: Were you here when Harry Truman came out?</p> <p>Amacker: No.</p> <p>Putnam: I remember hearing a story that he came out at—</p> <p>Amacker: No. John Kennedy came.</p> <p>Putnam: Uh-huh.</p> <p>Amacker: But that was in the ‘50s, of course. No, I don’t remember Truman coming.</p> <p>Putnam: I think he was set out to investigate something. This may have been earlier. To find out why so much money was being spent or something like that.</p> <p>Amacker: Oh.</p> <p>Putnam: But he was sent, turned around or something like that. Colonel Mathias said that he made a phone call and President Truman went right back to Washington.</p> <p>Amacker: Oh, yeah, that would happen. Well General Gross came while I was here. I can remember being sure everything was ready for the white glove inspection when he came. Because—oh, you stood at attention when he was in the room, or around.</p> <p>Putnam: He was—</p> <p>Amacker: He was very impressive.</p> <p>Interviewer: In what way?</p> <p>Amacker: Very military. Big man. And he demanded that you be aware of the fact that he was the General. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: Quite the opposite of Mathias.</p> <p>Amacker: Very, very different from Colonel Mathias, yeah. I think he only came once while I was here. He came back for the 25^th anniversary. I remember we had a big party at the Hanford House. And Colonel Mathias came for that, too. I can’t remember any other famous names right now.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, the WACs in particular—tell me about your unit and what your assignment was, and—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, there were never more than 24 of us. Most of the time, there were about 22 of us here. And we all had our assigned jobs. Some were out in the Areas; some were in town; some were—well, several of us worked in the Administration Building which was right in this location. We had a commanding officer. We had three commanding officers while I was here. They just came and went. We did have drill once in a while, not very often. We didn’t have bed check. We lived as the civilians did. And we had a very comfortable dormitory. We had anything we wanted: washer and a dryer and a stove and a refrigerator. We were permitted to cook there, which we did very little, because the cafeteria was so much easier. But we’d have holiday dinners there and invite civilians. We had a room set up for a dining room. We cooked turkey and all the trimmings.</p> <p>Putnam: I understand you were the cream of the crop, too, to get this assignment.</p> <p>Amacker: We were told that. We were told that we were the cream of the crop, handpicked especially for the Manhattan Engineer District. And I don’t know whether we were the cream of the crop or not, but it certainly was a privilege to work with the Manhattan Engineer District. We had some pretty nice girls, so I guess maybe we were deserving. I made lots of friends with—well, we were all friends. I think we all got along very well in the dormitories. And the civilians, I believe, did too. There’s a little animosity here and there, but I think mostly everybody got along very well.</p> <p>Putnam: There are a lot of stories about how rowdy everything was, with the gambling and—but still—</p> <p>Amacker: Well, that was at Camp Hanford. But I didn’t know anything about that. I hear all those stories, too, but I was unaffected by it because I didn’t even know it was going on. I don’t know whether I had my head in the sand or where it went on, but I was unaware of gambling and I never saw fights, I never saw a brawl, I didn’t see—I heard about people getting shot and cut up and all those wild stories, but I never saw it.</p> <p>Putnam: I live in Seattle and I hear about the same things and I don’t—</p> <p>Amacker: You didn’t see it either, did you? [LAUGHTER] Sometimes I think those things are—oh, speaking of funny things, they had a horse out at Hanford—anything the least bit different was entertaining because we were so isolated from the world—who could count. His owner would tell him, now count to eight, and he’d paw on the ground for eight times. That was one thing I used to watch every Sunday. I’d go out and watch that horse.</p> <p>Putnam: Pretty entertaining.</p> <p>Amacker: But anything that went aside from the business world was entertaining because we were just not—we were isolated.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. Did you find—did you get used to the dust—I mean, it’s hard to be used to the dust but did you grow so that you liked the country?</p> <p>Amacker: I loved it. I was appalled when I got off the train and saw the Pasco Depot. It was terrible. People were sitting on the floor, leaning against the wall, and they were mostly construction workers and they looked pretty ragged. But then, when we started to cross the old Green Bridge and I saw that gorgeous river, and the drive out to Hanford—it was real early in the morning, maybe—it was just daybreak. I fell in love with it. I just loved it. I love the barrenness; I love the desert look of it. It looked like it needed people. And it was all so new to me and exciting. I’ve always loved this country, from the day I arrived, in spite of the dust storms. And I’ve grumbled about the dust storms just like everybody else. But in between has certainly made up for it. Beats the heck out of Ohio. [LAUGHTER] We have terrible winters and weather there. So I love the country. And the people. I’ve never been unhappy or sorry that I stayed here. Course, I met my husband and that made it that much better. And our children love it. I think the young people—I’ve seen lots of them grow up and leave and pretty soon they’re back.  Same with when GE left, a lot of people left with them. And before long, a good many of them were clamoring to come back. There’s just something about it, this place. It grows on you, even those who didn’t like it. They learned to like it.</p> <p>Putnam: It’s a special place.</p> <p>Amacker: It is. Mm-hmm.</p> <p>Putnam: Beautiful country.</p> <p>Amacker: In spite of the wind.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah, the river and all. You say you used to go across the river on ferries?</p> <p>Amacker: On a ferry, mm-hmm. Usually on Sundays. We’d just go across the river and picnic. We could get a box lunch at the mess hall. They were so generous at the mess hall. You could go in there any time in the day or night and get something to eat. So, they really made it as appealing as possible for people to stay. Of course, we weren’t going anywhere; we were stuck, being in the Army. But we still had the advantages that all those people had.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, thanks very much for talking to us.</p> <p>Amacker: You bet.</p> <p>Putnam: Is there anything else you want to say?</p> <p>Amacker: I can’t think of anything. It was a pleasure.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah.</p> <p>Amacker: Thank you very much.</p> <p>Interviewer: It’s nice when--</p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:41:17 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 224kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hope Amacker Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Hope Amacker conducted by Bill Putnam for the B Reactor Museum Association. Hope was in WAC (Women's Army Corps) Clerical Supply during WWII at the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/29/2004 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb3f4cf2ec1a84c11fd028b6e18b2164c.mpg 7a87ecb2b2273666827e255f19dfef04 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tom Putnam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Briston Location The location of the interview Home of Floyd Briston Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p><strong>FLOYD BRITSON INTERVIEW Recorded 3/15/92</strong></p> <p> </p> <p>Tom Putnam: The first thing we’d like to know is if you could state your name and whatever position that you had here in the early days of Hanford. And then we’ll ask questions for answering.</p> <p>Floyd Britson: Well, Floyd Britson is the name. And I was Senior Supervisor on C shift during the startup of B.</p> <p>Putnam: How did you first hear about the Hanford Project, and how were you recruited to come here?</p> <p>Britson: Oh, I was an area supervisor for DuPont at a TNT plant at Joliet, Illinois. And they turned the plant over to another company and moved about 1,200 of us out here from Joliet. This was in the summer of ’44, basically operating people. But I got on a side issue along with a chap by the name of Harry Miller. Developed the whiz-bang which resolved the canning problem of the slugs they used in B Reactor.</p> <p>Putnam: How did you come here? Did you come by car, by train?</p> <p>Britson: By train. Landed here April 12^th. My car showed up somewhat later, by train. And then, I was assigned a house early in the—but I was told that my furniture would be two-three months away from getting out here. But, one day I got a call, come into town; there’s a truck full of furniture out in front of your house and they want to unload it. It seemed, according to my wife, that when they started to load the furniture back in Joliet to haul into Chicago for storage, the truck driver got a call on the telephone and he was told instead of bringing that furniture into Chicago, you just head out for Richland. So, I had a house full of furniture and no wife.</p> <p>Putnam: What was it like when you arrived here? Where—did you live in Richland or in Hanford, or--?</p> <p>Britson: I lived in Richland. The dormitories were in operation but full. And so I was put in a house out on the corner of Stevens and Van Giesen. That was made over into a dormitory. There was six or eight of us that were sleeping there. But a few days after I got there, as I say, I already had a house assigned to me, so they said they would loan me a bedroom full of furniture if I would sleep in my own house for free until my furniture got there, which would free up a dormitory room for somebody else. Because they were moving them in pretty fast at that time. Well, I don’t know how many, but several DuPont plants were shut down, in the east, or turned over to—well, it was our plant at Joliet was turned over to U.S. Rubber, to operate. And they moved everybody that could get clearance and they brought 1,200 of us out here. But Oklahoma, southern Indiana, various plants, many people were brought out here at that time. And so they were just running out of room.</p> <p>Putnam: Was there a lot of construction?</p> <p>Britson: Well, construction was in full force. Hanford was loaded. Reportedly 65,000 men out there. And so—but then, a good many houses were well along in Richland. The big problem was furniture. They couldn’t get it in fast enough, they couldn’t get freight cars and sometimes up to six months.</p> <p>Greg Greger: You mentioned 65,000 construction workers. Do you have any idea of whether or not any of them were women? Not in construction, necessarily, but related jobs?</p> <p>Britson: There were some women. I have no idea how many. They had women’s dorms and they had men’s dorms and they had quite a problem with that: married people split up. They had to do their lovemaking through fences and—oh, it was a lot of stories. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: When you—do you recall first seeing B Reactor and the Area out there?  What level of construction was complete by then? Tell us about your first reactions.</p> <p>Britson: Well, the buildings were all complete, at the time I got here in April, or virtually complete. But the equipment inside took until about September before they loaded up and started up. I don’t remember the date in September; it seems like the initial start was fairly early.</p> <p>Putnam: and you came in April, April of ’44. So tell us the story then about—what was the problem that they had then at that point?</p> <p>Britson: Well, the problem that I got onto was canning this uranium slugs with aluminum, they had to be leak-proof, no pinholes. And they had been working somewhere back east—Ohio I believe—for a year and had not been able to solve the problem. And, so a chap by the name of Harry Miller was assigned the job; he was a DuPont troubleshooter. And Harry grabbed me as a draftsman and I spent the next two months in developing what was later dubbed the whiz-bang. But from it, they found out what they were doing wrong with their old machines and they made the correction in between April and September. Had enough seven-inch slugs to load B Area.</p> <p>Putnam: Can you describe the whiz-bang to us? What—how did it work?</p> <p>Britson: No, I don’t think I dare. I was sworn to secrecy and I’ve never been taken off of it, so--</p> <p>Putnam: Okay. So what did your work consist of? You built the whiz-bang, and then--?</p> <p>Britson: Then I went back to B Area and was senior supervisor on C shift for power. We supplied the water and the steam for backup emergency. But our primary job was to pump through the filter plant—this meant water treatment, additions of various chemicals along the road, and then the final pumping station in the 190 Building, which brought it up to pressure. Also had the emergency steam pumps sitting there, in the event of electrical failure for the electric pumps.</p> <p>Greger: On the treatment of water, was there anything new or was this pretty much standard procedures?</p> <p>Britson: Well, it was fairly standard procedure. B Area did not have the refrigeration units as we talked a bit ago, although D and F area did have, but they were only used for one season, I think. But the standard filter plant was—see, there was first a river pump house. Pumped it up to a reservoir in the plant. And from that reservoir, then, water was pumped through the filter plant into clear wells. They had gone through the filter beds, given water treatment and pumped out of the clear wells through the 185 Building, which was a chemical addition building where addition chemicals were added. The 190 pumps then pumped out of the storage tanks in this 185 Building. Pumped it through the valve pit where again chemicals were added. And through the tubes that contained the uranium slugs that were being irritated. [LAUGHTER] Irradiated.</p> <p>Greger: Do you recall how many degrees the refrigeration was able to get in the water?</p> <p>Britson: No sir, I couldn’t. Not now anymore, but we just gave it all we had.</p> <p>Greger: Mm-hmm. And you might mention, as you told me, why the decided not to--</p> <p>Britson: But that was not in B Area.</p> <p>Greger: I realize that, yeah.</p> <p>Britson We did not have the refrigeration pumps in B Area.</p> <p>Greger: But even with the older areas, since it was going on at the same time, you might mention what you told me.</p> <p>Britson: Well, they only used it for, I think, one season. And decided that, rather than to waste all that electricity on those refrigeration units, they’d just pump additional water. Get the same results. And then later—oh, several years later, they put in bigger pumps in those 190 annexes they put in—[TELEPHONE RINGS]—some enormous pumps. [TELEPHONE RINGS]</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Britson: Everything was secret back in those days. You just didn’t discuss off of the Plant anything that you knew about the place. Various people got into all kinds of trouble from spouting off. There was one story that was going around, a guy got into trouble and he was asked what they were doing out there he said, hell, I don’t know, they could be splitting atoms for all I know. And boy, he was in a lot of trouble. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: He made a good guess! How much—were you aware of what was going on? Were you given information or simply given figures?</p> <p>Britson: I was given only what information I needed to know to run my job. When water got to the valve pit, I didn’t have any idea what was going on beyond that.</p> <p>Greger: How long was it before you finally understood or were told that it was a nuclear thing?</p> <p>Britson: I don’t guess ever. Of course, my job, over time—I was on construction liaison for several years, the building of H Area unit, D and DR unit—DR unit. And some of the buildings, operations in the 200 Areas and, as I say, information that filtered down some way or other. I had no idea what was going on. How I acquired it, I don’t know. But as far as anybody sitting down and telling me what was going on, that never happened.</p> <p>Greger: They probably thought that power needs to just treat the water.</p> <p>Britson: Treat the water and that’s it. No, we never told our fellows anything. You see, I was two months behind on getting my shift together. And holding the training courses, because we were hiring anybody that was warm. And it turned out that construction was letting a lot of carpenters loose at about that time and we hired a lot of carpenters for power operators. It was a new business and so it didn’t make much difference how much experience a guy had, he didn’t have what was going on here. But I was permitted to hold some overtime classes in town here, during the summer of—well, say, July and August—I held classes right here in town for my crew on overtime basis because I was behind, having spent two months on the whiz-bang. And of course that never hurt my reputation any. From then on, I had a good job. Harry Miller got to be superintendent of a department. I never attained that, but I did wind up as manager of GDR Power, in the last few years.</p> <p>Greger: One last question on the whiz-bang. Do you happen to know how they came up with that name?</p> <p>Britson: No. No, that was all done in operations. In fact, I had trouble even finding anybody that would talk, to tell me that much on the whiz-bang. Because it had been a sore problem and when it got resolved, why, it was kept a secret. No, I ain’t kidding you.</p> <p>Putnam: Were you at—you were here when startup occurred. Were you at the plant, or what was—was there awareness that the plant started up?</p> <p>Britson: I was on C shift, actual startup.</p> <p>Putnam: C Shift—what was C Shift?</p> <p>Britson: We were on 4:00 to 12:00.</p> <p>Putnam: 4:00 to 12:00. And so, were you working in the main building? Were you in the control room?</p> <p>Britson: No, I was supervisor—senior supervisor of the shift. So I had a lot of buildings to—the 190 Building, the 185 Building, 183 Building, 182 Building, 181 Building, 108 Building—all under my supervision, plus the powerhouse.</p> <p>Putnam: What did that entail, just telling people what to do?</p> <p>Britson: Well, no, I had supervisors under me who did the telling. But when you’re the top supervisor on any shift, the responsibility lands in your lap for anything that happens.</p> <p>Greger: Were there any preparations or announcements or anything else as you approached startup that would make it any different in the regular shift?</p> <p>Britson: No, no. We had been working for days as though the place was in operation. As far as we were concerned in our water treatment plant, our pumping, all of our pumping facilities were just as—the crew really never knew what was going on, particularly.</p> <p>Greger: Was there any announcement that they had made?</p> <p>Britson: Not particularly. No, because as I say, nobody was told anything that they didn’t have to have it for use on their job. And these boys had some gauges and that’s all they had to watch.</p> <p>Putnam: How many people were—I mean, was there a big crowd around at the time?</p> <p>Britson: No, no, no. It was just standard shift. There may have been a few extra physicists during the startup period. Because—well, remember, that was the first one in the world and so the boys with their pencil were there, but not too many of them, that I was aware of.</p> <p>Greger: How many people were in your power C Shift would you estimate?</p> <p>Britson: Oh, gosh. I just don’t remember now how many I did have.</p> <p>Putnam: I think I’d better—</p> <p>Britson: We had about, at that time, total power, as I remember, about 600 people. But they were scattered over four shifts.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Britson:  From F—or B to F, and continued then in operations, I was area supervisor for—well, the rest of ‘45, ‘46, when DuPont left and GE came in. And sometime in ‘47, or ’48, we started to build the DR Reactor because B was shut down and it looked like it was done.</p> <p>Greger: What was your understanding of how they came into that problem at B?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I was told that the material used was crawling and that the tubes were getting so crooked, that they were having trouble getting these seven-inch slugs pushed through. Were having some trouble with the control rods which had to be moved in and out to control the reaction. And what they were concerned with, particularly, was that the vertical control rods wouldn’t drop into place in case of emergency. But after B sat there for a while and they were able to watch D and F Area, which was still in operation, they realized that the creep had about reached its limit. And so they went to a four-inch slug instead of a seven and were able to load the tubes, and their control rods weren’t giving them any further trouble. But in addition to that, my understanding was that they hung a bunch of hoppers—buckets if you will—with boron balls—marbles—above the reactor and so in case any of the control rods failed all they’d do is dump those balls and they’d run like water into every crack and crevice in the place and shut the place down dead. And so with that behind them, then they started up B Area again and it continued to operate until it was shut down somewhere in the ‘60s.</p> <p>Putnam: In terms of general atmosphere at Hanford and kind of in the country at the time, what was the climate--was there a time of fear and crisis, or--? What was it like to be in the United States of America in 1944 working on the Manhattan Project?</p> <p>Britson: Our only concern really was the balloon bombs that the Japs were floating this direction. We were told about them; that some several had landed in Oregon. None that I ever heard of had landed near here. But it wasn’t until just a few years ago that I learned that those rascals floated over 6,000 of those bombs in our direction, on the Jetstream. But that Jetstream, of course, changes course without notice and their bombs weren’t too effective, but the intent certainly was there. To float 6,000 of them in this direction. And that was several years after Pearl Harbor, which was in ’41, and so we’re talking about ‘44, ‘45. Of course, in ‘45 the bombs were dropped, first Nagasaki—or I mean Hiroshima and then Nagasaki a week later. Now, Nagasaki used materials from here. Hiroshima used material from Oak Ridge.</p> <p>Putnam: When did you first hear about that? And was there an explanation? I mean, obviously it came in paper at that time.</p> <p>Britson: Well, I was in Portland. We had a day off and so we’d gone to Portland, and I heard about it there.</p> <p>Putnam: Do you remember hearing about it in the news?</p> <p>Britson: Oh.</p> <p>Putnam: Were you excited?</p> <p>Britson: Well, for sure because we didn’t know what the results of that may be, but then on the other hand—Many of us had been passed over by the Army or the Navy. I had—back in TNT plant—I was in TNT before Pearl Harbor. I had gone to work for the contractor that was building the TNT plant there at Joliet in 1940. And, as construction ended, or was tapering off, I got permission to talk to DuPont who was coming in to operate the plant. I had been working with Stone &amp; Webster. And I had been in charge of well drilling operations, so DuPont decided they needed me and so I hired over with DuPont. Stone &amp; Webster already had a job for me at Oak Ridge but I talked them out of that. In fact the Stone &amp; Webster manager said, I know a little bit about DuPont. He said, I’ll just bet you a dinner that you leave here before I do.</p> <p>Putnam: What was your area of expertise? How was your training?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I was a civil engineer to start with. I had gone to school at Iowa State, Ames. I never got a degree, but I had gotten into construction—some of the major companies.</p> <p>Putnam: What, in your opinion, was the major importance? It was really a huge endeavor, the Manhattan Project. Why do you think we were able to do it and make it succeed?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I guess you can say it just kind of happened, if you get the right people on the job. DuPont had some people on the job with their expertise. [TELEPHONE RINGS] Now we’ve talked—</p> <p>Putnam: Oh.</p> <p>Gregson: I’ll get ya.</p> <p>Putnam: Okay, go ahead.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: What I was getting at before was, did it take a lot of the industrial capacity of the United States to—I mean a lot of the expertise and industrial capacity of the United States was diverted to this project and it was pretty remarkable. Do you have any thoughts about that?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know too much about the design effort, nor the early construction. See, these reactors, well, they’d been building on them for years by the time I got here.</p> <p>[DOOR OPENS]</p> <p>Putnam: Oops.</p> <p>Britson: And so, I don’t guess I’m in position to answer your question that you’re—</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah, sure, okay. Let’s see. We’re going to—</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Greger: --that you felt everybody was really tuned in to security, and I think that you commented that some people did get in trouble. Did you have anything else to say about that? One would think that people would always—or some people would discuss what they thought it might be. But have any thoughts comments?</p> <p>Britson: Well, no, not particularly. There were a lot of little stories around about at the time. One story that they used to tell—a kid in school got up and said to a teacher, she knew what her father was doing out in the plant, because he brought home a roll of toilet paper in his lunch box every night. [LAUGHTER] ­Another of the cute stories at the time was that they just painted some glue on a piece of paper and held it up and made sandpaper out of it. Because of the sandstorms. We had a lot of wind at that time and of course everything in Richland, Hanford, and the areas was all dug up and just loose sand everywhere. And so, it was in the air. But, well, of the group of people that I associated with, were all like myself: they had a very limited knowledge of what was going on in the building. But I think most of us operated on the basis we had enough to learn about the equipment that we had under our charge to worry about what was going on the other side of the fence. And, of course, as I mentioned, the fact that at the time construction was laying off carpenters, and so we hired a bunch of carpenters for power operators. We had brand new equipment; nobody was used to it, and so it didn’t make much difference what their past profession was, they had to learn all over again. And we had plenty of time, with the exception of myself, because I’d spent two months on the whiz-bang. And so my shift got a bit behind, but they permitted me to set up some overtime sessions down here in the school, right across the street here, somewhere. Right here in this area. There was a church, or something, right over here on the corner, wasn’t there? And I set up some sessions there and paid the boys overtime to sit and listen to me yack at them.</p> <p>Greger: You mentioned that you were on a day off in Portland when the bomb was dropped. Is there—I’d be curious as to what was the attitude of people when you got back to the shift and people you knew, now that the news was out?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know, nobody seemed to be too surprised at anything. Is that the way you remembered it, Tom? </p> <p>“Tom”: That’s about right. I think--</p> <p>Britson: Nobody seemed to be particularly surprised at anything. The fact that the second bomb came from material from here was welcome news and that was about it.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. I want to backtrack and—you were describing me the startup procedure and some of the technical facts of the 1,600 versus the 2,000 tubes, can you give us just a little bit, kind of a thumbnail sketch, of the startup period and you know just what you heard about or what you know about it? Just as a description.</p> <p>Britson: Well, as far as our operations concerned it didn’t make any difference. We just had to maintain certain water flow, water pressure. And once it hit the valve pit we didn’t pay any attention to what was going on the other side of the fence, because we had been told right from the start, it’s none of your damn business.  And so—[LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: But, how did it work, where they did a dry criticality first, and then--?</p> <p>Britson: We had been pumping for days. To make sure of our equipment. You see, the contractor only had to run equipment 24 hours satisfactorily. And then it was turned over to us, and we had to make sure that it was going to run continually. And if one piece of equipment wouldn’t run, then another piece would. And to back all of this up with tanks of water sitting here and there and high tanks and we had special pumps on the export system to pump water from one area to another.</p> <p>“Tom”: Yup, they were some high tanks.</p> <p>Britson: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, yeah. And so—but in my years of operation we never had to resort to those. We were able to take care of the situation with our electric and our steam pumps.</p> <p>“Tom”: Steam backup.</p> <p>Britson: Plus—one little factor in there—there were great big wheels between the motor and the pump—flywheels. What did those things weigh, six tons?</p> <p>“Tom”: Yeah, at least that much. Yeah.</p> <p>Britson: And they would continue to keep those pumps running for long enough for us to get our steam pumps in operation. And the power houses responded every time there was a need for it. We had ample capacity there and a well-trained crew. And we had those steam pumps at all the places: 182, 183, as well as 190. And reservoirs to back us up.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you have any particular problems in that area in the days before start up, anything that was interesting problems to solve? Or was it just basically a well-designed beginning, not too many adjustments necessary?</p> <p>Britson: Well, no, there wasn’t too much. We got the equipment. Oh, we had some problems, but they posed no problem for us, because we had alternate equipment to stick on. And backup equipment. From my own limited knowledge of what was going on—and I don’t remember now just where that took place—but it was some time after the initial startup was when they put those boron balls in those buckets above the reactors. That was a safety backup.</p> <p>“Tom”: The VSRs.</p> <p>Britson: Because we’d all been a little dubious about some of those horizontal rods and particularly those vertical control rods hanging up somewhere. But when they put those buckets of balls up there, why, I certainly rested a lot happier with it. But I don’t remember just where now, it was a year or two after—</p> <p>“Tom”: After startup.</p> <p>Britson: --after startup, wasn’t it?</p> <p>“Tom”: I don’t remember the day really, the Ball-3X system. I started to work at DuPont down there around the same time that he did.</p> <p>Britson: Oh, I see. Well, of course, I came from Kankakee Plant and there were a lot of boys from Kankakee Plant here.</p> <p>“Tom”: Oh, yeah.</p> <p>Britson: In fact, I think there was probably about 1,200 at one time considered for moving out here.</p> <p>Putnam: Here, would you describe conditions as being difficult? And what was the morale like? Was there a sense of team spirit sort of, of everybody working on a big project?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know if we had too much of a problem in operations, although there was several people unhappy with their housing, and I guess some were unhappy with their job. We were all here on travel contracts, and so some of the boys, as soon as they could, talked them into shipping them back to their old plant. But it wasn’t long we started getting letters from them, could they get their old job back? And one chap, Chet Smith, do you remember him?</p> <p>“Tom”: I remember the name.</p> <p>Britson: Well, Chet and his wife lived down around in here somewhere in F house and they didn’t like it. In fact, they didn’t like anything about this place much. And so, they were one of the very first to be shipped back. But they were also one of the very first to start writing letters, could they get their old job back, could they get any job back? Could they get their old housing back, could they get any housing back? They didn’t need housing, they would live in a trailer. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, to get back here. We did, we finally got him back, gave him his old job. You never heard a thing out of Chet Smith from then on. But there were a few pretty unhappy people here at one time.</p> <p>Putnam: Was there enough—was the food good, was there a lot of groceries?</p> <p>Britson: Well, sure. There was a cafeteria across from the 703 Building there on the corner, I don’t know what’s in there now.</p> <p>“Tom”: The corner of Knight and Jadwin.</p> <p>Britson: And a Coke machine at the Desert Inn, and that was it. If you wanted to get to a restaurant you had to go to Pasco or Kennewick, and they didn’t have too many. But the cafeteria food was pretty good, so I thought. There were a lot of stories that come out of Hanford of the construction group. In fact I heard one fella say, we had a pretty good week last week. We lost 3,000 because of the dumb sandstorms, but we hired 3,001. So we had a good week. The turnover was terrific, apparently, in construction. But, you see, when we started moving operation people in, the City of Richland, the housing that’s just here today, mostly, was available to us. Of course, there was some unhappiness. My wife, when she got here, boy, how she hated this place. We had an H house, right in the middle of a sand dune, across from the Mormon Church. It wasn’t there at the time, but was built later. But anyway, I think it was 1959, we had built a house over east of the shopping center and moved over east of the shopping center and moved over there, Kennewick address. Now we had been living here since ‘44 and this was in ‘58 or ‘59 when we moved over there. I remember a trip that we took back east, on vacation, and when we got back in the middle of the night I said, to heck with our baggage, we’ll come back in the morning and get it. I’m bushed, let’s get the car and get home and get a little sleep. Which we did. And the next morning, then, we went back for our suitcases and I can remember my wife settling back in the seat of the car and she said, I’m glad to be home. But it took a lot of years to get there. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: In retrospect, in your own experience from all the—what’s your evaluation of that experience? Are you proud to have been a part of that, and was it gratifying to be here during those years?</p> <p>Britson: Well, the part that I played into it and the responsibilities that I had, were probably a lot different than the average. Because I apparently made a name for myself on that first two months, on the whiz-bang. And from then on I had myself a good job. I was a construction liaison and startup of new areas. When we finally settled down on GE’s reorganization, I was a manager of an area and that’s where I retired from. So, I think my luck was a bit different than the average that just had a humdrum job and didn’t really gain anything much by it. There was a few promotions but not really too many, because in Operations we didn’t have too much of a turnover of people. Housing was cheap. Of course wages weren’t all that good at the time, but then, these houses that now sell for $100,000, we bought for $7,000 or $8,000.</p> <p>Putnam: Anything—well, as part of the overall, do you have anything else to say about the experience and about kind of—we are undergoing a lot of nuclear power and nuclear generation has led to a lot of questioning and a lot of—we have to look to the future. Do you have anything that you can say from your experience to future generations?</p> <p>Britson: Well all I can say is, I’ve been retired for 27 years and I’ve continued to live right here. That’s about the first thing my wife and I agreed on. That we were not moving back to Ohio or Illinois. If we were to leave here, we would go to Arizona. And then we decided that our six weeks of summer here was a heck of a lot better than that six to eight months of summer in Tucson. [LAUGHTER] So, we stayed right here. My wife and I were together 66 years before she passed away a year ago.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh. Well, that’s wonderful. Okay. All right, thank you very much.</p> <p>Britson: Well, you’ve milked me dry, have you?</p> <p>Putnam: Well, anything you want to add? Anything you want to say in retrospect to—for posterity?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know. I listen or read about these guys over on the West Slope and all the troubles that they’re having from this plant and I worked in it for 20 years and have lived around here almost 50. And I don’t understand what they’re complaining about. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: Good, all right.</p> <p> </p> <p><strong>FLOYD BRITSON INTERVIEW Recorded 3/15/92</strong></p> <p> </p> <p>Tom Putnam: The first thing we’d like to know is if you could state your name and whatever position that you had here in the early days of Hanford. And then we’ll ask questions for answering.</p> <p>Floyd Britson: Well, Floyd Britson is the name. And I was Senior Supervisor on C shift during the startup of B.</p> <p>Putnam: How did you first hear about the Hanford Project, and how were you recruited to come here?</p> <p>Britson: Oh, I was an area supervisor for DuPont at a TNT plant at Joliet, Illinois. And they turned the plant over to another company and moved about 1,200 of us out here from Joliet. This was in the summer of ’44, basically operating people. But I got on a side issue along with a chap by the name of Harry Miller. Developed the whiz-bang which resolved the canning problem of the slugs they used in B Reactor.</p> <p>Putnam: How did you come here? Did you come by car, by train?</p> <p>Britson: By train. Landed here April 12^th. My car showed up somewhat later, by train. And then, I was assigned a house early in the—but I was told that my furniture would be two-three months away from getting out here. But, one day I got a call, come into town; there’s a truck full of furniture out in front of your house and they want to unload it. It seemed, according to my wife, that when they started to load the furniture back in Joliet to haul into Chicago for storage, the truck driver got a call on the telephone and he was told instead of bringing that furniture into Chicago, you just head out for Richland. So, I had a house full of furniture and no wife.</p> <p>Putnam: What was it like when you arrived here? Where—did you live in Richland or in Hanford, or--?</p> <p>Britson: I lived in Richland. The dormitories were in operation but full. And so I was put in a house out on the corner of Stevens and Van Giesen. That was made over into a dormitory. There was six or eight of us that were sleeping there. But a few days after I got there, as I say, I already had a house assigned to me, so they said they would loan me a bedroom full of furniture if I would sleep in my own house for free until my furniture got there, which would free up a dormitory room for somebody else. Because they were moving them in pretty fast at that time. Well, I don’t know how many, but several DuPont plants were shut down, in the east, or turned over to—well, it was our plant at Joliet was turned over to U.S. Rubber, to operate. And they moved everybody that could get clearance and they brought 1,200 of us out here. But Oklahoma, southern Indiana, various plants, many people were brought out here at that time. And so they were just running out of room.</p> <p>Putnam: Was there a lot of construction?</p> <p>Britson: Well, construction was in full force. Hanford was loaded. Reportedly 65,000 men out there. And so—but then, a good many houses were well along in Richland. The big problem was furniture. They couldn’t get it in fast enough, they couldn’t get freight cars and sometimes up to six months.</p> <p>Greg Greger: You mentioned 65,000 construction workers. Do you have any idea of whether or not any of them were women? Not in construction, necessarily, but related jobs?</p> <p>Britson: There were some women. I have no idea how many. They had women’s dorms and they had men’s dorms and they had quite a problem with that: married people split up. They had to do their lovemaking through fences and—oh, it was a lot of stories. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: When you—do you recall first seeing B Reactor and the Area out there?  What level of construction was complete by then? Tell us about your first reactions.</p> <p>Britson: Well, the buildings were all complete, at the time I got here in April, or virtually complete. But the equipment inside took until about September before they loaded up and started up. I don’t remember the date in September; it seems like the initial start was fairly early.</p> <p>Putnam: and you came in April, April of ’44. So tell us the story then about—what was the problem that they had then at that point?</p> <p>Britson: Well, the problem that I got onto was canning this uranium slugs with aluminum, they had to be leak-proof, no pinholes. And they had been working somewhere back east—Ohio I believe—for a year and had not been able to solve the problem. And, so a chap by the name of Harry Miller was assigned the job; he was a DuPont troubleshooter. And Harry grabbed me as a draftsman and I spent the next two months in developing what was later dubbed the whiz-bang. But from it, they found out what they were doing wrong with their old machines and they made the correction in between April and September. Had enough seven-inch slugs to load B Area.</p> <p>Putnam: Can you describe the whiz-bang to us? What—how did it work?</p> <p>Britson: No, I don’t think I dare. I was sworn to secrecy and I’ve never been taken off of it, so--</p> <p>Putnam: Okay. So what did your work consist of? You built the whiz-bang, and then--?</p> <p>Britson: Then I went back to B Area and was senior supervisor on C shift for power. We supplied the water and the steam for backup emergency. But our primary job was to pump through the filter plant—this meant water treatment, additions of various chemicals along the road, and then the final pumping station in the 190 Building, which brought it up to pressure. Also had the emergency steam pumps sitting there, in the event of electrical failure for the electric pumps.</p> <p>Greger: On the treatment of water, was there anything new or was this pretty much standard procedures?</p> <p>Britson: Well, it was fairly standard procedure. B Area did not have the refrigeration units as we talked a bit ago, although D and F area did have, but they were only used for one season, I think. But the standard filter plant was—see, there was first a river pump house. Pumped it up to a reservoir in the plant. And from that reservoir, then, water was pumped through the filter plant into clear wells. They had gone through the filter beds, given water treatment and pumped out of the clear wells through the 185 Building, which was a chemical addition building where addition chemicals were added. The 190 pumps then pumped out of the storage tanks in this 185 Building. Pumped it through the valve pit where again chemicals were added. And through the tubes that contained the uranium slugs that were being irritated. [LAUGHTER] Irradiated.</p> <p>Greger: Do you recall how many degrees the refrigeration was able to get in the water?</p> <p>Britson: No sir, I couldn’t. Not now anymore, but we just gave it all we had.</p> <p>Greger: Mm-hmm. And you might mention, as you told me, why the decided not to--</p> <p>Britson: But that was not in B Area.</p> <p>Greger: I realize that, yeah.</p> <p>Britson We did not have the refrigeration pumps in B Area.</p> <p>Greger: But even with the older areas, since it was going on at the same time, you might mention what you told me.</p> <p>Britson: Well, they only used it for, I think, one season. And decided that, rather than to waste all that electricity on those refrigeration units, they’d just pump additional water. Get the same results. And then later—oh, several years later, they put in bigger pumps in those 190 annexes they put in—[TELEPHONE RINGS]—some enormous pumps. [TELEPHONE RINGS]</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Britson: Everything was secret back in those days. You just didn’t discuss off of the Plant anything that you knew about the place. Various people got into all kinds of trouble from spouting off. There was one story that was going around, a guy got into trouble and he was asked what they were doing out there he said, hell, I don’t know, they could be splitting atoms for all I know. And boy, he was in a lot of trouble. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: He made a good guess! How much—were you aware of what was going on? Were you given information or simply given figures?</p> <p>Britson: I was given only what information I needed to know to run my job. When water got to the valve pit, I didn’t have any idea what was going on beyond that.</p> <p>Greger: How long was it before you finally understood or were told that it was a nuclear thing?</p> <p>Britson: I don’t guess ever. Of course, my job, over time—I was on construction liaison for several years, the building of H Area unit, D and DR unit—DR unit. And some of the buildings, operations in the 200 Areas and, as I say, information that filtered down some way or other. I had no idea what was going on. How I acquired it, I don’t know. But as far as anybody sitting down and telling me what was going on, that never happened.</p> <p>Greger: They probably thought that power needs to just treat the water.</p> <p>Britson: Treat the water and that’s it. No, we never told our fellows anything. You see, I was two months behind on getting my shift together. And holding the training courses, because we were hiring anybody that was warm. And it turned out that construction was letting a lot of carpenters loose at about that time and we hired a lot of carpenters for power operators. It was a new business and so it didn’t make much difference how much experience a guy had, he didn’t have what was going on here. But I was permitted to hold some overtime classes in town here, during the summer of—well, say, July and August—I held classes right here in town for my crew on overtime basis because I was behind, having spent two months on the whiz-bang. And of course that never hurt my reputation any. From then on, I had a good job. Harry Miller got to be superintendent of a department. I never attained that, but I did wind up as manager of GDR Power, in the last few years.</p> <p>Greger: One last question on the whiz-bang. Do you happen to know how they came up with that name?</p> <p>Britson: No. No, that was all done in operations. In fact, I had trouble even finding anybody that would talk, to tell me that much on the whiz-bang. Because it had been a sore problem and when it got resolved, why, it was kept a secret. No, I ain’t kidding you.</p> <p>Putnam: Were you at—you were here when startup occurred. Were you at the plant, or what was—was there awareness that the plant started up?</p> <p>Britson: I was on C shift, actual startup.</p> <p>Putnam: C Shift—what was C Shift?</p> <p>Britson: We were on 4:00 to 12:00.</p> <p>Putnam: 4:00 to 12:00. And so, were you working in the main building? Were you in the control room?</p> <p>Britson: No, I was supervisor—senior supervisor of the shift. So I had a lot of buildings to—the 190 Building, the 185 Building, 183 Building, 182 Building, 181 Building, 108 Building—all under my supervision, plus the powerhouse.</p> <p>Putnam: What did that entail, just telling people what to do?</p> <p>Britson: Well, no, I had supervisors under me who did the telling. But when you’re the top supervisor on any shift, the responsibility lands in your lap for anything that happens.</p> <p>Greger: Were there any preparations or announcements or anything else as you approached startup that would make it any different in the regular shift?</p> <p>Britson: No, no. We had been working for days as though the place was in operation. As far as we were concerned in our water treatment plant, our pumping, all of our pumping facilities were just as—the crew really never knew what was going on, particularly.</p> <p>Greger: Was there any announcement that they had made?</p> <p>Britson: Not particularly. No, because as I say, nobody was told anything that they didn’t have to have it for use on their job. And these boys had some gauges and that’s all they had to watch.</p> <p>Putnam: How many people were—I mean, was there a big crowd around at the time?</p> <p>Britson: No, no, no. It was just standard shift. There may have been a few extra physicists during the startup period. Because—well, remember, that was the first one in the world and so the boys with their pencil were there, but not too many of them, that I was aware of.</p> <p>Greger: How many people were in your power C Shift would you estimate?</p> <p>Britson: Oh, gosh. I just don’t remember now how many I did have.</p> <p>Putnam: I think I’d better—</p> <p>Britson: We had about, at that time, total power, as I remember, about 600 people. But they were scattered over four shifts.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Britson:  From F—or B to F, and continued then in operations, I was area supervisor for—well, the rest of ‘45, ‘46, when DuPont left and GE came in. And sometime in ‘47, or ’48, we started to build the DR Reactor because B was shut down and it looked like it was done.</p> <p>Greger: What was your understanding of how they came into that problem at B?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I was told that the material used was crawling and that the tubes were getting so crooked, that they were having trouble getting these seven-inch slugs pushed through. Were having some trouble with the control rods which had to be moved in and out to control the reaction. And what they were concerned with, particularly, was that the vertical control rods wouldn’t drop into place in case of emergency. But after B sat there for a while and they were able to watch D and F Area, which was still in operation, they realized that the creep had about reached its limit. And so they went to a four-inch slug instead of a seven and were able to load the tubes, and their control rods weren’t giving them any further trouble. But in addition to that, my understanding was that they hung a bunch of hoppers—buckets if you will—with boron balls—marbles—above the reactor and so in case any of the control rods failed all they’d do is dump those balls and they’d run like water into every crack and crevice in the place and shut the place down dead. And so with that behind them, then they started up B Area again and it continued to operate until it was shut down somewhere in the ‘60s.</p> <p>Putnam: In terms of general atmosphere at Hanford and kind of in the country at the time, what was the climate--was there a time of fear and crisis, or--? What was it like to be in the United States of America in 1944 working on the Manhattan Project?</p> <p>Britson: Our only concern really was the balloon bombs that the Japs were floating this direction. We were told about them; that some several had landed in Oregon. None that I ever heard of had landed near here. But it wasn’t until just a few years ago that I learned that those rascals floated over 6,000 of those bombs in our direction, on the Jetstream. But that Jetstream, of course, changes course without notice and their bombs weren’t too effective, but the intent certainly was there. To float 6,000 of them in this direction. And that was several years after Pearl Harbor, which was in ’41, and so we’re talking about ‘44, ‘45. Of course, in ‘45 the bombs were dropped, first Nagasaki—or I mean Hiroshima and then Nagasaki a week later. Now, Nagasaki used materials from here. Hiroshima used material from Oak Ridge.</p> <p>Putnam: When did you first hear about that? And was there an explanation? I mean, obviously it came in paper at that time.</p> <p>Britson: Well, I was in Portland. We had a day off and so we’d gone to Portland, and I heard about it there.</p> <p>Putnam: Do you remember hearing about it in the news?</p> <p>Britson: Oh.</p> <p>Putnam: Were you excited?</p> <p>Britson: Well, for sure because we didn’t know what the results of that may be, but then on the other hand—Many of us had been passed over by the Army or the Navy. I had—back in TNT plant—I was in TNT before Pearl Harbor. I had gone to work for the contractor that was building the TNT plant there at Joliet in 1940. And, as construction ended, or was tapering off, I got permission to talk to DuPont who was coming in to operate the plant. I had been working with Stone &amp; Webster. And I had been in charge of well drilling operations, so DuPont decided they needed me and so I hired over with DuPont. Stone &amp; Webster already had a job for me at Oak Ridge but I talked them out of that. In fact the Stone &amp; Webster manager said, I know a little bit about DuPont. He said, I’ll just bet you a dinner that you leave here before I do.</p> <p>Putnam: What was your area of expertise? How was your training?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I was a civil engineer to start with. I had gone to school at Iowa State, Ames. I never got a degree, but I had gotten into construction—some of the major companies.</p> <p>Putnam: What, in your opinion, was the major importance? It was really a huge endeavor, the Manhattan Project. Why do you think we were able to do it and make it succeed?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I guess you can say it just kind of happened, if you get the right people on the job. DuPont had some people on the job with their expertise. [TELEPHONE RINGS] Now we’ve talked—</p> <p>Putnam: Oh.</p> <p>Gregson: I’ll get ya.</p> <p>Putnam: Okay, go ahead.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: What I was getting at before was, did it take a lot of the industrial capacity of the United States to—I mean a lot of the expertise and industrial capacity of the United States was diverted to this project and it was pretty remarkable. Do you have any thoughts about that?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know too much about the design effort, nor the early construction. See, these reactors, well, they’d been building on them for years by the time I got here.</p> <p>[DOOR OPENS]</p> <p>Putnam: Oops.</p> <p>Britson: And so, I don’t guess I’m in position to answer your question that you’re—</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah, sure, okay. Let’s see. We’re going to—</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Greger: --that you felt everybody was really tuned in to security, and I think that you commented that some people did get in trouble. Did you have anything else to say about that? One would think that people would always—or some people would discuss what they thought it might be. But have any thoughts comments?</p> <p>Britson: Well, no, not particularly. There were a lot of little stories around about at the time. One story that they used to tell—a kid in school got up and said to a teacher, she knew what her father was doing out in the plant, because he brought home a roll of toilet paper in his lunch box every night. [LAUGHTER] ­Another of the cute stories at the time was that they just painted some glue on a piece of paper and held it up and made sandpaper out of it. Because of the sandstorms. We had a lot of wind at that time and of course everything in Richland, Hanford, and the areas was all dug up and just loose sand everywhere. And so, it was in the air. But, well, of the group of people that I associated with, were all like myself: they had a very limited knowledge of what was going on in the building. But I think most of us operated on the basis we had enough to learn about the equipment that we had under our charge to worry about what was going on the other side of the fence. And, of course, as I mentioned, the fact that at the time construction was laying off carpenters, and so we hired a bunch of carpenters for power operators. We had brand new equipment; nobody was used to it, and so it didn’t make much difference what their past profession was, they had to learn all over again. And we had plenty of time, with the exception of myself, because I’d spent two months on the whiz-bang. And so my shift got a bit behind, but they permitted me to set up some overtime sessions down here in the school, right across the street here, somewhere. Right here in this area. There was a church, or something, right over here on the corner, wasn’t there? And I set up some sessions there and paid the boys overtime to sit and listen to me yack at them.</p> <p>Greger: You mentioned that you were on a day off in Portland when the bomb was dropped. Is there—I’d be curious as to what was the attitude of people when you got back to the shift and people you knew, now that the news was out?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know, nobody seemed to be too surprised at anything. Is that the way you remembered it, Tom? </p> <p>“Tom”: That’s about right. I think--</p> <p>Britson: Nobody seemed to be particularly surprised at anything. The fact that the second bomb came from material from here was welcome news and that was about it.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. I want to backtrack and—you were describing me the startup procedure and some of the technical facts of the 1,600 versus the 2,000 tubes, can you give us just a little bit, kind of a thumbnail sketch, of the startup period and you know just what you heard about or what you know about it? Just as a description.</p> <p>Britson: Well, as far as our operations concerned it didn’t make any difference. We just had to maintain certain water flow, water pressure. And once it hit the valve pit we didn’t pay any attention to what was going on the other side of the fence, because we had been told right from the start, it’s none of your damn business.  And so—[LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: But, how did it work, where they did a dry criticality first, and then--?</p> <p>Britson: We had been pumping for days. To make sure of our equipment. You see, the contractor only had to run equipment 24 hours satisfactorily. And then it was turned over to us, and we had to make sure that it was going to run continually. And if one piece of equipment wouldn’t run, then another piece would. And to back all of this up with tanks of water sitting here and there and high tanks and we had special pumps on the export system to pump water from one area to another.</p> <p>“Tom”: Yup, they were some high tanks.</p> <p>Britson: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, yeah. And so—but in my years of operation we never had to resort to those. We were able to take care of the situation with our electric and our steam pumps.</p> <p>“Tom”: Steam backup.</p> <p>Britson: Plus—one little factor in there—there were great big wheels between the motor and the pump—flywheels. What did those things weigh, six tons?</p> <p>“Tom”: Yeah, at least that much. Yeah.</p> <p>Britson: And they would continue to keep those pumps running for long enough for us to get our steam pumps in operation. And the power houses responded every time there was a need for it. We had ample capacity there and a well-trained crew. And we had those steam pumps at all the places: 182, 183, as well as 190. And reservoirs to back us up.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you have any particular problems in that area in the days before start up, anything that was interesting problems to solve? Or was it just basically a well-designed beginning, not too many adjustments necessary?</p> <p>Britson: Well, no, there wasn’t too much. We got the equipment. Oh, we had some problems, but they posed no problem for us, because we had alternate equipment to stick on. And backup equipment. From my own limited knowledge of what was going on—and I don’t remember now just where that took place—but it was some time after the initial startup was when they put those boron balls in those buckets above the reactors. That was a safety backup.</p> <p>“Tom”: The VSRs.</p> <p>Britson: Because we’d all been a little dubious about some of those horizontal rods and particularly those vertical control rods hanging up somewhere. But when they put those buckets of balls up there, why, I certainly rested a lot happier with it. But I don’t remember just where now, it was a year or two after—</p> <p>“Tom”: After startup.</p> <p>Britson: --after startup, wasn’t it?</p> <p>“Tom”: I don’t remember the day really, the Ball-3X system. I started to work at DuPont down there around the same time that he did.</p> <p>Britson: Oh, I see. Well, of course, I came from Kankakee Plant and there were a lot of boys from Kankakee Plant here.</p> <p>“Tom”: Oh, yeah.</p> <p>Britson: In fact, I think there was probably about 1,200 at one time considered for moving out here.</p> <p>Putnam: Here, would you describe conditions as being difficult? And what was the morale like? Was there a sense of team spirit sort of, of everybody working on a big project?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know if we had too much of a problem in operations, although there was several people unhappy with their housing, and I guess some were unhappy with their job. We were all here on travel contracts, and so some of the boys, as soon as they could, talked them into shipping them back to their old plant. But it wasn’t long we started getting letters from them, could they get their old job back? And one chap, Chet Smith, do you remember him?</p> <p>“Tom”: I remember the name.</p> <p>Britson: Well, Chet and his wife lived down around in here somewhere in F house and they didn’t like it. In fact, they didn’t like anything about this place much. And so, they were one of the very first to be shipped back. But they were also one of the very first to start writing letters, could they get their old job back, could they get any job back? Could they get their old housing back, could they get any housing back? They didn’t need housing, they would live in a trailer. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, to get back here. We did, we finally got him back, gave him his old job. You never heard a thing out of Chet Smith from then on. But there were a few pretty unhappy people here at one time.</p> <p>Putnam: Was there enough—was the food good, was there a lot of groceries?</p> <p>Britson: Well, sure. There was a cafeteria across from the 703 Building there on the corner, I don’t know what’s in there now.</p> <p>“Tom”: The corner of Knight and Jadwin.</p> <p>Britson: And a Coke machine at the Desert Inn, and that was it. If you wanted to get to a restaurant you had to go to Pasco or Kennewick, and they didn’t have too many. But the cafeteria food was pretty good, so I thought. There were a lot of stories that come out of Hanford of the construction group. In fact I heard one fella say, we had a pretty good week last week. We lost 3,000 because of the dumb sandstorms, but we hired 3,001. So we had a good week. The turnover was terrific, apparently, in construction. But, you see, when we started moving operation people in, the City of Richland, the housing that’s just here today, mostly, was available to us. Of course, there was some unhappiness. My wife, when she got here, boy, how she hated this place. We had an H house, right in the middle of a sand dune, across from the Mormon Church. It wasn’t there at the time, but was built later. But anyway, I think it was 1959, we had built a house over east of the shopping center and moved over east of the shopping center and moved over there, Kennewick address. Now we had been living here since ‘44 and this was in ‘58 or ‘59 when we moved over there. I remember a trip that we took back east, on vacation, and when we got back in the middle of the night I said, to heck with our baggage, we’ll come back in the morning and get it. I’m bushed, let’s get the car and get home and get a little sleep. Which we did. And the next morning, then, we went back for our suitcases and I can remember my wife settling back in the seat of the car and she said, I’m glad to be home. But it took a lot of years to get there. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: In retrospect, in your own experience from all the—what’s your evaluation of that experience? Are you proud to have been a part of that, and was it gratifying to be here during those years?</p> <p>Britson: Well, the part that I played into it and the responsibilities that I had, were probably a lot different than the average. Because I apparently made a name for myself on that first two months, on the whiz-bang. And from then on I had myself a good job. I was a construction liaison and startup of new areas. When we finally settled down on GE’s reorganization, I was a manager of an area and that’s where I retired from. So, I think my luck was a bit different than the average that just had a humdrum job and didn’t really gain anything much by it. There was a few promotions but not really too many, because in Operations we didn’t have too much of a turnover of people. Housing was cheap. Of course wages weren’t all that good at the time, but then, these houses that now sell for $100,000, we bought for $7,000 or $8,000.</p> <p>Putnam: Anything—well, as part of the overall, do you have anything else to say about the experience and about kind of—we are undergoing a lot of nuclear power and nuclear generation has led to a lot of questioning and a lot of—we have to look to the future. Do you have anything that you can say from your experience to future generations?</p> <p>Britson: Well all I can say is, I’ve been retired for 27 years and I’ve continued to live right here. That’s about the first thing my wife and I agreed on. That we were not moving back to Ohio or Illinois. If we were to leave here, we would go to Arizona. And then we decided that our six weeks of summer here was a heck of a lot better than that six to eight months of summer in Tucson. [LAUGHTER] So, we stayed right here. My wife and I were together 66 years before she passed away a year ago.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh. Well, that’s wonderful. Okay. All right, thank you very much.</p> <p>Britson: Well, you’ve milked me dry, have you?</p> <p>Putnam: Well, anything you want to add? Anything you want to say in retrospect to—for posterity?</p> <p>Britson: Well, I don’t know. I listen or read about these guys over on the West Slope and all the troubles that they’re having from this plant and I worked in it for 20 years and have lived around here almost 50. And I don’t understand what they’re complaining about. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: Good, all right.</p> <p> </p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:50:11 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 224kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Floyd Briston Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation B Reactor National Historic Landmark (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An audio oral history interview with Bill Putnam conducted by Tom Putnam for the B Reactor Museum Association. Hope was a "Pr Sr. Supervisor of C Shift" during WWII at the Hanford Site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/15/1992 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff117eb2b608733a3e90e232f68ef5be8.mpg 2a93771a8d50f6cc56b68969f51696d8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tom Putnam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas M. Clement Location The location of the interview Home of Thomas M. Clement Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p><strong>THOMAS CLEMENT INTERVIEW- Recorded on 3/15/92</strong></p> <p>Tom Putnam: If you’re ready, we’re ready.</p> <p>Thomas Clement: All right.</p> <p>Putnam: So, can you state your name and your position—what you did, you know, what your job title was.</p> <p>Clement: At the beginning?</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah.</p> <p>Clement: Thomas M. Clement, and I was transferred to Hanford in February of 1944 from Kings Mills, Ohio. That was the Remington Arms Plant at that time, making ammunition for the Armed Forces. And I was interviewed back there by Walt Simon, who turned up to be the plant manager for DuPont here, when he got here. And they allowed me to drive my car out here in February of ’44. I had snow all the way from Cincinnati to Pendleton, Oregon, so it took me eight days to make it. And when I started to work here, why, I was in training for the reactor instrumentation maintenance end of the business. When I got here, I did not know what we were doing here; I was not informed during the interview. But there was a college friend of mine here that I’d gone to college with in engineering and I was—they sent me down to Los Angeles for a couple weeks down to the Beckman Instrument Company to look over the Beckman RXGs, which were used in the control room.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: Okay, I’m sorry I was—had an interruption there. I’m sorry, can you start with that description again about, about—oh, you better tell me about the physics book again, too. I’m not sure I got that. So, if you could tell me that story, and then--</p> <p>Clement: All right. In May of 1944, I was assigned to go down to Los Angeles to visit the Beckman Instrument Company at that time, who were manufacturing the Beckman RXG Micro-microammeters that would be used in the reactor control systems. They would measure the output of the ion chambers that would indicate the level of nuclear activity in the reactor block itself and were used as a matter of control and safety. At that time a classmate of mine back in college, Sherman Lloyd, said, while you’re there, why, go over to the Los Angeles Public Library and look at the Pollard and Davison physics book, and you’ll find out, essentially, what we’re into here at Hanford. So, I did this when I went to Los Angeles and got some idea of the type of thing that we were looking at. So, in other words, it didn’t—the book did say something about the feasibility, or possibility, of a nuclear bomb being manufactured. So after that, why, I continued my training. And the other thing I continued was courting my potential wife, who was living in Seattle and I was living here. I would get on the train in Pasco Saturday night and get over there in the morning and visit with her and then get on the train and come back here Sunday night and then go to work Monday morning. So, it was kind of hectic, but that ended a bit anyhow on August the 13^th when we were married over in Seattle and I had a long honeymoon of three days up at Paradise Inn on Mt. Rainier. So then, shortly after that I was assigned out to B Reactor. I think it was about the first of September, and at that time, I was acting as a shift supervisor for the instrument crew, and we had--I think it was either four or six—Instrument technicians, I call them now, on each shift. Because we were training people for the other two reactor areas that were going to be started up at that time. This was B Reactor and we were going to start up D Reactor and F Reactor.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: --you went out to the Area and what it looked like, what stage the construction was in, or something like that, can you describe?</p> <p>Clement: The stage of the construction on our first tour, as I remembered—I think it was in April of ’44—and the D and F Reactors were just coming out of the ground—the buildings. And B, as I remember, the side walls on the reactor building were getting up pretty high. I think they were still laying the graphite in the pile, as I remember, at that time. And that would have been the year—actually the year the reactor started up. So if you put this in terms of building reactors today, it was a fantastic job from the standpoint of how fast it went along. When you figured that they got all three reactors started up within one year and--</p> <p>Greg Greger: Excuse me. When they took you on this tour, what did they call this—you know, if they were going to show you this, how did they refer to it?</p> <p>Clement: Hmm. Well, the reactor, the only thing I remember is reactor.</p> <p>Greger: They did use that word?</p> <p>Clement: As I remember. Now I may be wrong, but that’s the way I remember it—</p> <p>Greger: I see.</p> <p>Clement: --so. And of course we were into the instrumentation and control of the reactor, too, as far as what was going on inside. So we had to measure the nuclear activity; we had to measure the heat generated, and all that sort of thing—I mean, with the thermocouples. And we had to measure the water flow through the reactor with the panelettes for the pressure monitor system. You know all about that, I’m sure. But--</p> <p>Putnam: Were you developing instruments as you went along? Were you building new instruments?</p> <p>Clement: No, we were learning—in the process of learning what instruments had been provided to do the job. In other words, this was an orientation period for us. Which amounted to, I’d say, about six months or less, on a completely new field. Because we were assigned out to B Reactor, I think it was in the first part of September of 1944 on shift. And at that time we were preparing for reactor startup and—which went quite well as I remember it—up until the time that the reactor died because of the poison—the nuclear poison. Enrico Fermi was there at that time, and it took him, I think, less than a day to come up with the answer. It turns out that DuPont—who was in charge of the construction and in charge of the operation of the reactors, in their design work back in Wilmington, Delaware—had decided to put at least one or more extra rows of process tubes around it—the outside of the reactor—so that—the critical—they could put in more uranium to enhance the critical mass if some of the calculations were not right. So, when Enrico Fermi went through the process of calculating what had happened with the shutdown of the reactor, why, all they did was to charge the outer rows—I think it was one or two rows; I can’t remember which—of processed tubes with more uranium. And then we were able to proceed along with normal operation of the reactor. So, this would overcome the poisoning of the—what was the material that was—</p> <p>Greger: Xenon?</p> <p>Clement: Xenon poisoning, right.</p> <p>Putnam: Were you there? During that time, were you at B Reactor?</p> <p>Clement: I was at B Reactor during that time, yes. I was on the shift—on one of the shifts.</p> <p>Putnam: In the control room?</p> <p>Clement: Well, I had a crew of instrument people that were responsible for the instruments in the control room and in the whole plant, for that matter. So I was there. I don’t remember being in the control room at the time that the actual—it died gradually, let’s put it this way. The xenon poisoning was a gradual thing, it wasn’t just cut off like that, suddenly.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: Well, what was I going to ask you to do was kind of think back about the atmosphere. It must had been quite charged with expectation; I mean, people must have been—was it doubtful, was it simply people didn’t know what was going to happen, or was it confident?</p> <p>Clement: Oh, I think people had confidence in the management of the plant. In other words, it was all being run by DuPont. DuPont had been in charge of construction. It was not at all like the atmosphere in today--that we have today--with so many government agencies in the picture that you don’t know what the final decision is going to be. This way, you would pass the problem up the line and you would get an answer back down the line, a positive answer. And you would go with it, and you would believe in it. Because you had faith—you had confidence in the people that were running the show. I still come back to another story that I heard. That in Congress—at that time, Harry Truman was in Congress, and there was a lot of to-do about all of the money they were spending at Hanford. And so, Harry Truman came out to Hanford to do a little investigating. And about the time he got here, why, one of the DuPont executives called Wilmington, Delaware and Wilmington, Delaware called Washington, DC and Harry Truman left right overnight; he didn’t do any investigating, so—[LAUGHTER] They had a lot of confidence in the company that was constructing the plant, and that was running the plant, and I think this is a very key point to the success of the whole operation. At least, in my opinion it was.</p> <p>Putnam: Go back to that time of startup and can you kind of describe that day or that period of time? We understand there was a long process of loading tubes and then dry criticality was reached, and then it was flooded and then they had to come back up to wet criticality. Do you have any recollection?</p> <p>Clement: I don’t have a specific recollection of that. I imagine Don Lewis probably would give you a better description of that.</p> <p>Greger: What were you as instrument people, what was your main function in all of this?</p> <p>Clement: The main function in this would be to—like in the criticality end of the business—would be to see that our—we’d read the results or measure the criticality with the Beckman instruments that I was talking about, that I went to Los Angeles to check on where they were building them—the Beckman RXGs in the control room, they’d have the ionization chambers actually under the reactor so that you can measure the nuclear activity in the reactor. And of course as you come, as you start to reach criticality your activity builds up quite a bit; your readings on your instruments goes up, so.</p> <p>Greger: Where were these chambers positioned in relation to the loaded tubes?</p> <p>Clement: They were positioned—let’s see now. We had the galvanometers—chambers were positioned in holes through the reactor shield, up about the middle of the reactor. The Beckman instruments, now these measured—these galvanometers measured the ionization current coming from those chambers and would measure activity. The Beckman instruments themselves were--the chambers were located underneath the reactor where there’s holes up through the graphite, so that they can get a picture of the center activity, in the center of the reactor. Now the Beckmans were safety devices, such that you would preset a trip point on the Beckman, and it would automatically scram the reactor, or insert the control rods when you passed a manually set trip point.</p> <p>Greger: Were these Beckmans such that you could change them out or maintain them through their position in the reactor?</p> <p>Clement: Yes, we could. We had to change the chambers if we had a failure. Sometimes we would have failures and we would have to remove the chamber and replace it with a good one. In other words, they’ll fail like most any other object or gadget, you might say. We didn’t have to do that frequently, but it had to be done sometimes. But we had enough of them, such that we would always have some of them in operation, and we would be sure that we had a good picture of what was going on. Of course, in addition to the radioactivity, we had a good handle—now, that would be for dry critical, but it would also work during the wet critical stage. When wet critical, why, then you would have the temperature instruments—we measured the temperature—outlet temperature of the water coming through each and every process tube on the temperature monitor. In this way, you can get a picture, too, of the heat generation in the reactor itself. You know the inlet water temperature and then you measure the out water temperature and we had a temperature monitor system so that you could plot the whole picture and see where the hot—what’s getting hot and what isn’t.</p> <p>Greger: Actually, the measurement of that temperature was significant in understanding the level, was it not?</p> <p>Clement: In the reactor.</p> <p>Greger: Yes.</p> <p>Clement: That’s right. We also had a, a power level instrumentation which would measure the overall outlet water temperature and the overall—in other words the bulk, the flow. And this would give you the level of the reactor in kilowatts or megawatts or whatever—heat generation. So--</p> <p>Putnam: It must have been fascinating for the first time to see what a real reactor, actually—no one really knew what it was like, did they?</p> <p>Clement: That’s right, that’s right. And you figure before we got done out there, before we shut B down, we were up to--what was it—about 3,000 megawatts of power generation--I mean, of heat generation, not power generation. And you look at the overall picture, it’s very rewarding. But it took a lot of effort, it took a lot of, we’ll say, cooperation and working together with the people out there. And I look back on it and I—it’s a pleasant memory, let’s put it that way. That phase of the work is very pleasant.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you have a sense you were breaking new ground, that you right on the frontier?</p> <p>Clement: We were sure of that, yes. I think we were sure of that, and after reading some of the articles and things that are done and then the fact—when the bomb was dropped, of course, then it hit the newspapers, so. That confirmed what we had known for quite a while, or what some—many of us had known.</p> <p>Putnam: What do you think the general feeling of people was? Was there a feeling of a big—that it was a real cooperative effort? Was it kind of s cooperative spirit, a real project team kind of feeling and a feeling of real satisfaction when job was done?</p> <p>Clement: Yes, I think there was, really. At least there was in my mind. I think a lot of this, like I said before, comes from the attitude and the way the whole system was managed by the DuPont Company. And they were in charge, and in that time the only other government agency in here, as I remember was the Corps of Engineers. DOE hadn’t come into the picture as yet.</p> <p>Greger: Or even AEC.</p> <p>Clement: Or even AEC. That is right. Now, I’m not saying that those aren’t necessary at this time, but during the war effort when time was of the essence because Adolph Hitler—they had word that he was also working on the atomic bomb. So we had a goal in mind.</p> <p>Greger: Do you have any recollections of that first startup shift? How did it affect you as a person, as what you did that night or whatever?</p> <p>Clement: I guess I don’t, Greg. Whether my shift was off or not, I don’t know, but I don’t have any specific recollections on that one.</p> <p>Greger: Do you remember how you learned that they had made the first indication and all this kind of thing?</p> <p>Clement: Well, I was—I can’t even remember the date that we first started up, to tell the truth, when we first reached criticality. So I, I have no specific recollection. I went through so many phases of it afterwards I guess, that I-- [LAUGHTER] And I realized after we’d get up to 1,000 megawatts how insignificant it was in terms of energy. I have no specific recollection of that.</p> <p>Putnam: So it was like a huge milestone in the day-to-day operation; it was just pretty routine almost?</p> <p>Clement: That’s right. And this was the first step in the B Reactor and of course, we knew that we would have two more reactors to start up, too. And people were focusing on the overall, I think.</p> <p>Putnam: Any interesting problems, or solutions to problems, during that time in terms of your field, in terms of the instrumentation or anything you remember about something that came up that was—I know that we were talking about canning the fuel elements and that it took them a long time to settle that problem—was instrumentation pretty straightforward?</p> <p>Clement: I think it was. I can’t remember any during the startup phase. I can remember some later on, when we ran into a lot of failures in the thermocouples which measured the outlet temperature of the individual process tube. But that would be a year or two down the road, when we had to get in and replace all the 3,000 thermocouples on the rear face. [CHUCKLES] Which is the fairly radioactive place. But I don’t remember any specific problems, as such, right now.</p> <p>Putnam: Okay.</p> <p>Greger: I was curious about one thing, when the news hit the papers, as to what the result of the product had been, what kind of attitude did that generate either at work or in the community? Was there anything that one can talk about as to that—all of a sudden people knew what they had been doing?</p> <p>Clement: Well, I think for us people that were involved with it, I think it was a matter of pride, really. That we were happy to have been a part of what our country was doing. In other words, that was my feeling. Now let’s see, the first bomb was dropped in August, wasn’t it?</p> <p>Greger: Yes.</p> <p>Clement: Of 1944?</p> <p>Putnam: Five.</p> <p>Clement: Five, ‘45. So we started the first reactor out there in September of ’44. And we started the second reactor out there in December of ’44. We started the third reactor in February of ‘45. I was in on the F Reactor and on the B Reactor; I wasn’t in on the startup of D. But I didn’t get C and H and some of the others.</p> <p>Greger: Some of the people had mentioned this problem that B ran into, of the graphite growth and the fact that B was shut down for a while. Do you have any recollections of how all this happened?</p> <p>Clement: Oh, yes.</p> <p>Greger: Was there an instrument?</p> <p>Clement: Oh yes, yes, yes indeed. The graphite growth of course came at after it was directly, we’ll say, connected with the amount of irradiation that the graphite had suffered. I remember very well, because Bill Overbeck was in charge of instrumentation at that time. And I was assigned, along with Harry Shaw, for finding out a method for measuring the amount of growth of the graphite. So, we got our heads together—and Harry had a background of civil engineering, I believe. And Bill Overbeck and Harry and I--and I think that was all, three of us—went over to visit at Boeing down—when they were at Boeing Field—and did some exploratory work down there, looking for a means of measuring the bowing on the—I say, that’s B-O-W-I-N-G—on the process tubes. So we came up with a very simple approach where we would set up a transit on the charge elevator and we had the center of each process tube on the wall—measured on the wall, the concrete wall and back about—what, 50 or 100 feet from the elevator. We would take a little target that just fit inside of the process tube and had a little scale on it with a light, and the scale was marked in tenths of an inch, or something like that, on a horizontal basis. And we would pull the slug with the scales through the tube, one or two feet at a time—I can’t remember how many feet—and we would take a reading with the transit at each position. And then you could plot the bowing on the process tube. So this turned out to be a very helpful thing in determining the actual amount of graphite growth that we had. And we continued to use this method for a number of years—I don’t remember how many, as long as we had the graphite reactors, I suppose—in determining the amount of growth. And I imagine, after we had enough data, they could calculate the growth of the graphite based on the amount of nuclear activity that you’d had in the reactor itself.</p> <p>Greger: Wasn’t there an operational change that caused a change of this growth rate, of using helium?</p> <p>Clement: We started out—I think we started out with a mixture of helium and CO₂ in around, surrounding the graphite and it seems to me we wound up eventually with 100% helium, I think. I remember very well, too—of course this is way late in the game—but we had gas analysis instrumentation on the gases flowing through the reactor. This goes back to the 60s though, a long time.</p> <p>Greger: The use of helium was supposedly a cure or a slow down?</p> <p>Clement: Slow down for the graphite, yes, that’s right.</p> <p>Interviewer: Do you know how they came to the conclusion that that was the thing to try?</p> <p>Clement: I would imagine it was done by the results of our surveys. I would imagine that. I wasn’t in on that, but all we did was to take the readings and give them the readings. And then the technical—the other technical people would make their calculations and go on from there.</p> <p>Greger: What is there to say about the time they closed down B Reactor for a period, because of this problem?</p> <p>Clement: Oh, Greg, I don’t think I remember that. I may have been assigned to another reactor at that time.</p> <p>Greger: Our power person here mentioned that, and I knew it was down for a period.</p> <p>Clement: Yeah, that’s right, it probably was. I don’t remember that. I might had been over at F Area or D Area or H Area or something like that.</p> <p>Putnam: Was the work pretty absorbing in that first year? So summer of ’44 to summer of ’45—things must’ve been pretty intense. Were you working long shifts?</p> <p>Clement: Oh, yes. Everybody was working at least six hours a day—six days a week, I mean. Six days a week. And it was a long day. The time you left the dormitory and caught your bus at about 6:00 or 6:30 in the morning and got back about 6:00 or 6:30 in the night, it was a long day, yes. And then you’d have to go over to the eating place there. That building’s still there, incidentally—the old cafeteria building’s still there, as you know. It’s right across Knight Street from the Federal—from the post office there.</p> <p>Putnam: Yes.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Clement: Yeah, there’s been a lot of phases, an awful lot.</p> <p>Greger: I guess, at one point that to an outsider is hard to imagine, and I don’t know what your memory is of it, but when all this construction and ground digging was going on out in the Areas, it must have been interesting to see it on a windy day.</p> <p>Clement: Yes, it was.</p> <p>Greger: Several people have referred to this, but—</p> <p>Putnam: I think maybe that’s—</p> <p>Greger: I’ve been meaning to ask you.</p> <p>Clement: The dust storms were terrible in those days. And we think they’re bad now, but the dust was coming from—well, I think of around the city of Richland primarily because I was not in the area during the construction phase as much, very much. But when you were living in Richland in the first two years, I’d say ‘44, ‘45 and ’46, the dust was very, very bad. Because a lot of people were moving in; they hadn’t been able to plant their lawns, even though, when you got your house, why, the company would furnish you with grass seed, they would furnish you with water and everything to try to encourage you to plant the lawns. They’d furnish you with coal to heat your house, and all that sort of thing. So, that was one of the things that—I didn’t hear Brit mention that one, but—[LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah, in some respects it was a pretty good life, wasn’t it?</p> <p>Clement: It was a very—that’s right. Your rents were very, very low. This house here is the first one we moved into. I think it was in the beginning of December in ‘44 when we moved into our B house up on Black Court. It was a real interesting experience.</p> <p>Greger: I’d like to ask you, you as a plant employee, and in your case, you met your future wife who did not work here. What kind of situation was there when two people meeting would obviously want to know what the other was doing and these kinds of things?</p> <p>Clement: [LAUGHTER] I just told her, I couldn’t tell you. It’s secret work, yeah. [LAUGHTER]</p> <p>Greger: Enhanced your—</p> <p>Clement: Yeah! I didn’t get any kind of—any negative reaction I guess, because she went ahead and married me anyhow. And we had five children so, and we’re still married so. There’s been a lot of rewarding things, too, let’s put it that way.</p> <p>Putnam: One of the most interesting things that we talked about, I think, is the magnitude of effort, and the fact, as you say, that in a year three reactors were built and put online.</p> <p>Clement: That’s right.</p> <p>Putnam: Can you—was there more to say about that? Just—what was the magnitude of that effort? What was going on? What all was involved?</p> <p>Greger: Even the traffic must have been—the shift changing.</p> <p>Clement: Well, that’s right. Well, let’s put it this way, the magnitude of the effort was tremendous. The design of the plants, first of all, was made—was generated in Wilmington, Delaware by the DuPont Company. And they were in charge of design, they were in charge of construction, although there were some subcontractors out here, but they had full control. Which was the secret I think, of the whole operation being, in my opinion, of being so successful. And when you look back at the Hanford days, when the town of Hanford was at its peak, I imagine, I think there were 40 or 50,000 people housed out there. I’m guessing a little bit on that, but I think it’s about right. And the mess halls, the dormitories, the trailer parks. And the fact that you get that many people together in one place and they have nothing to do in their off hours, it’s kind of a problem. But they were working long hours, and I think their purpose—their whole purpose in being there was to complete the job. And I think that, they didn’t just work a 40 hour week and—So, I think that added to it, a lot. And there was a high rate of turnover, I think particularly among the construction workers. I was not aware of any high rate of turnover among the DuPont people who were going to operate the plant.</p> <p>Greger: What was recreation--in the spare time you had--not in construction, but down here, in Richland, what could one do?</p> <p>Clement: Oh, well, I remember playing tennis with Mr. Farmer, who happened to be Enrico Fermi, playing doubles down at the park. We did play a lot of tennis down here. I remember another Sunday, not too long after I got here and I still had gas stamps, and three or four of us in the dormitory got in my car and we drove out to Rattlesnake and climbed up Rattlesnake. You could drive up to where the old well was on the side—gas well, I guess it was—on the side of Rattlesnake and climb up from there. It was dirt road, but it was accessible. And there was a tremendous amount of things to see and do. With gas stamps I remember driving up almost to Chinook Pass one day with four or five of my buddies. We had one day off, so--one day a week off, so that didn’t allow for too much—to do too much.</p> <p>Greger: What was in Richland at that time as a source of recreation?</p> <p>Clement: Well, Howard Amon Park was there, the tennis courts were there. I remember them well because I played a lot of tennis down there, that’s one thing that I did. There were no bowling alleys as I remember at that time. I’ve forgotten just when they—maybe they—I can’t remember when they built the bowling alleys at the old rec hall, you know.</p> <p>Greger: Was there a movie theatre?</p> <p>Clement: Yes, there were movie theatres, there were movie theatres.</p> <p>Greger: And Richland Players, I think, started fairly early.</p> <p>Clement: Fairly early. I don’t remember just when they started. I used to work backstage for them, but that was after I—that was after 1948. Where I’m living now, we were right across from the Chief Joe Auditorium there, is where we live now. But it’s been a very rewarding life, I think.</p> <p>Putnam: How would you describe the overall experience from startup and your ensuing years here? You say it’s been a good life?</p> <p>Clement: Yes, yes, I think so. I have no complaints; I have a lot of good memories. I have some that aren’t too good, but I don’t magnify those; I don’t think of any specifically that come to mind.</p> <p>Putnam: What—I guess I never thought about this—but what happened after startup? Did the community remain? I know the construction people were disbanded fairly quickly, but the early people that came on for operations and all, was there a high rate of turnover at that point, or did it become settled and you made a lot of friends and the community came--I mean, what happened around that time?</p> <p>Clement: I was not associated much with the construction people. I’d say the operating people, from my point of view, were a very steady group. There were very few, very little turnover. I can remember one instance and I can’t remember the exact time of it; I think it was after we started F Area up, and my boss came in one day and said, well, we’re going to have to lay off a few people. So he told me who to tell, and so I went out and told him and I had a hard time with him. But it turned out all right. But like anybody when they get laid off, why—but there was not a large cutback. I’d say by and large, a large number of the people that I associated or worked with back in ’44, there’s still a lot of them around here, let’s put it that way.</p> <p>Putnam: Was that a surprise at that time—I mean, I guess, I know a lot of people thought that the effort was to win the war, and then perhaps things would shut down after that and continued. Was that unexpected?</p> <p>Clement: Well, we were wondering, yes, we were wondering. In fact, that would have been about ‘45 and ’46, wouldn’t it? And I was wondering myself, because in August 1946 I guess it was, I had some ideas; I was going to get a separate line of work. So I went out and bought a farm over in the Kennewick Highlands, twelve acres. It was about five acres of asparagus and several hundred fruit trees and a house. So we moved out there, I think it was August of ’46. So whatever happened at Hanford, we were going to have a separate sideline so to speak. And well we stayed there two years, because about that time, I think it was ‘47, ‘48, the construction started again, and the traffic got so bad it would take me an hour to get from the Kennewick Highlands over to Richland and then another hour to get out to work—two hours one way. And that got a little old. So at that time, why, I reapplied for housing. And at that time they were expanding the housing in Richland, so I got the house we’re still living in now, a Q house.</p> <p>Greger: What did you hear, or what’s your impression of the political changes that were an impact on the plant? You know, the war was over, was there kind of a gap there, until all of a sudden it began going up again, as you say, with more construction?</p> <p>Clement: Yeah, well, the political changes, of course, were that the AEC came into the picture more and more and more, I think. In other words, the government agencies. Which they had to do, I suppose, looking at the type of government that we have. And of course we had a change of contractors when DuPont left. I personally had a chance, I could have gone back east again with DuPont, but I turned it down and decided to stay here. That would have been in ‘46 when they left and General Electric came in. So.</p> <p>Greger: Do you recall the reason given for DuPont to not continue the contract?</p> <p>Clement: I don’t recall exactly, no. I know that shortly after that they were given the contract for Savannah River.</p> <p>Putnam: We’ve certainly heard nothing but good things about DuPont as a company, and the efficiency with which things were done.</p> <p>Clement: That’s right, right. Well, I started to work for DuPont in 1937 when I first got out of college and started making viscose rayon. And then I helped start up the first nylon plant in Delaware. And then they shipped me out to Ohio to make ammunition for the war effort and then on out here. So, I have an awful lot of respect for them, let’s face it. And I grew up in their territory, back in Pennsylvania. And still, in fact my sister’s retired now, and she lives out at—oh, the DuPont estate there outside of Wilmington, Delaware. I’ll think of it in a minute.</p> <p>Putnam: Any more?</p> <p>Greger: I can’t think of any more, do you? Well, maybe we should ask him that question. Do you think of anything that you remember as being interesting or significant to you or even funny?</p> <p>Clement: [LAUGHTER] I can’t right off hand. If somebody were to trigger me, I might think of something, but I can’t right off.</p> <p>Greger: Since you referred to it, I think it would be of interest—how did you manage the living quarters? You’d just married and I think—were you in dorms, or did you have a house?</p> <p>Clement: When we were first married, my wife had a whole week off, I had three days off. We were married on Sunday. We spent Sunday night and Monday night and Tuesday night up in Mt. Rainier, Paradise Inn. And then we came down and stayed at the transient quarters for the rest of the week and then my wife had to go back to work in Seattle. So from there on it was a weekend at a time whenever we could make it. Either she would come over here or I would go over there, and that would involve catching the train Saturday night out of Pasco and going over and spending the day and then coming back. So, but then I applied for a house, of course, as soon as I could. And then it took them until—that was August—until December before I was given a house.</p> <p>Putnam: And, did she move over then?</p> <p>Clement: Then she moved over, right. In the meantime, she had been shopping for furniture so we could furnish the house—shopping in Seattle.</p> <p>Putnam: You asked about women in the area.</p> <p>Greger: Oh, yeah, right. Well, I was curious; I asked the others, in construction or operations, I don’t think there were many women, but what do you remember? I’m just trying to think of women working. I know there were a few, even among the technicians, we were told, to help startup, there was a man wife team?</p> <p>Clement: There was a man and wife team at B Reactor, the Doctors Marshall. They were both physicists. And I remember them being out there, because they came from the same part of the east that I did, as I remember. I didn’t know them personally, but I remember them at—I think it was at B Reactor. I think they were—I’m not sure they were—I don’t think they were involved with the first shutdown when due to the xenon poisoning. I don’t believe they were, although my memory’s not that good.</p> <p>Greger: Were there other women in other jobs that you observed during the early days?</p> <p>Clement: The only ones that I observed were secretaries, that I had any personal contact with, the only ones that I remember. Did anybody else have any memory of it? I don’t remember.</p> <p>Greger: Annette Heriford commented, she delivered blueprints to construction, but that’s the only other one.</p> <p>Clement: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, I remember the secretaries that I had on the job out there when I was in different stages of the thing. I didn’t have any when I was on shift, of course. Then I got up to where I was assistant manager of the instrument group and then I was manager for a while and then they changed the organization and they had a, then I was manager of maintenance for D&amp;DR. And then went on from there to various different types of organizations and jobs.</p> <p>Putnam: One question that I think I mentioned; I don’t know if I asked you but, the question of wartime—sort of the atmosphere, the crisis, you know, it was pretty tense. Can you talk a little bit like that? I mean, how much was at stake in this effort? Were you aware of how much was at stake and how important it was to the war?</p> <p>Clement: I think we were, yes. Well, I know at one stage of the game when the Japs were bombing—well, this was after Pearl Harbor probably, but we expected to see Jap bombers come across out here. And we were all always out looking around the sky to see if we could spot any planes coming in. We’d make a crack about seeing a Jap bomber up there. Of course, we never did and we had, pretty much, defense units around from the Army and so forth that were out there. There were quite a few of them.</p> <p>Greger: Was there any particular activity following the “war was over” announcement, because of the plants’ effect on it?</p> <p>Clement: You mean on the war?</p> <p>Greger: After the second bomb.</p> <p>Clement: Oh, I think there was a lot of good feeling, as I remember. In other words, look what we helped do. We did a little—we did our part of it anyhow. In other words, I think there was a lot of satisfaction, yes.</p> <p>Putnam: Any celebrating, dancing in the streets?</p> <p>Clement: I don’t remember any, let’s put it this way. I don’t remember any.</p> <p>Putnam: I didn’t think there was a whole lot. Well, okay, if you have anything to add, we’d be interested.</p> <p>Clement: Yeah, I can’t think of anything right offhand.</p> <p>Putnam: Okay.</p> <p>Clement: If, at a later time, there’s anything I can fill in that you come across, why, let me know, and maybe I can search the mind and remember some of it. Maybe not.</p> <p>Greger: This has been a great time.</p> <p>Clement: Well, I hope it’ll--</p> <p> </p> <p> </p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:15 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 224kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomas Clement Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation B Reactor National Historic Landmark (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Thomas Clement conducted by Bill Putnam for the B Reactor Museum Association. Clement was a Instrumentation Shift Supervisor at the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/15/1992 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F604a92d5a3d17b5edbce8dbd1d531328.mpg e3523a75c5049a32dfb45e37bcc56d7a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tom Putnam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rudy DeJong Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <h1>Rudy DeJong interview- recorded 4/6/95</h1> <p> </p> <p>Tom Putnam: Just state your name, and maybe you could spell it for us, since it’s a little challenging. And then tell us when you came to Hanford and how you heard about the Project and how you were recruited. We’ll sort of open it that way, if you don’t mind.</p> <p>Rudy DeJong: Well, my name is Rudy DeJong. My last name is spelled capital-D-E, capital-J-O-N-G. I was working at Remington Arms in 1943 when I heard about the Hanford Project, which interested me very much, and several others. So there were five of us left in November of 1943 to come to Hanford. It was a very interesting trip that time of the year—winter, cold—but we found Hanford. We spent the first night in Pasco. We got there kind of late at night and we spent the night there. Then we drove over to Hanford. When we got to Hanford, it was on Sunday morning—I remember that—and we found the barracks. We were assigned to Barracks Number 2, and we were told that we’d be eating our food at Hanford Barracks—no, Hanford Number 2 is where we’d have our meals.</p> <p>Putnam: Let’s turn it off for just a second. Okay, so this was—what was the date?</p> <p>DeJong: It was November of 1943.</p> <p>Putnam: So you were one of the very first people to arrive. Pretty early.</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, pretty early. We were very early in fact, uh-huh.</p> <p>Putnam: And who was your employer?</p> <p>DeJong: It was Remington Arms, which is DuPont. So it was just a matter of transfer up here, so I continued to work for DuPont up here during the construction of the first three reactors: B, D, and F.</p> <p>Putnam: What did—how much had been done, by the time you got here? When you got here what did it look like?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, very little. We were living at Hanford, at the time in the barracks, and there was a shop there where we started to work. And one of my first assignments was to work in the 105 Building where they were to machine all the carbon blocks for the reactors. So my function was to set some of the machines and equipment for that activity. Then there was a time or two--oh, two or three weeks—when we were going to the 300 Area, and I was setting equipment for the shops over there and also for the power house.</p> <p>Putnam: Things were on a pretty tight schedule, weren’t they?  It was quite a tight schedule?</p> <p>DeJong: Things were quite a tight schedule. We were very busy and working long hours. We all had plenty to do; there was no waste of time.</p> <p>Putnam: What—excuse me—were you a machinist by trade? Is that what you were--</p> <p>DeJong: Actually, I was a millwright at that time. Millwright.</p> <p>Putnam: What did—let’s see—where was that area, was that out at the B Reactor site?</p> <p>DeJong: It was a little later. After they had built the outer walls of the B Reactor then we were shipped to work there, every day, from Hanford to the B Reactor area. It was quite cold then. They had big 50-gallon drums with fires in them to keep warm, so we’d warm up and then go back to work. But by the time I got there, the outer walls were built to full height, and we started doing some work inside.</p> <p>Putnam: What was story you were telling Greg about climbing those walls?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh! Some of the survey crew were looking for someone to set a survey target high on the walls. Well, there were actually no scaffolds inside, and they were having a lot of difficulty finding anyone to do it, because they had to be tied with ropes and hung over the wall to do it. So finally I told them I would do it. To do this, I had tools which I carried with me, and the target, and I climbed the outside scaffold clear to full height. And riggers were there, and they tied ropes on me and hung me over the wall. The survey crew were down below, and they were giving me signals where to set the target. Well, I had a starred bit which you hold up to the wall, and I kept moving that around till they give me the signal to stop. And then I took my hammer and made my mark. After that, why, I continued to make the hole, deep enough for the target. And they were all pleased, they said that’s perfect, so I drove the target into the hole. I’m assuming that that was the major target for setting all the other activities. It didn’t take too long to do it. It didn’t cause me any trouble.</p> <p>Putnam: How long—at that point, were you out working on the construction of B Reactor?</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, I’d been working there not too long, maybe two or three weeks when I had to set that target. It was after that, that I was doing other work, getting ready to set the floor blocks for the reactor—that is for the carbon portion of it, you know. We had to use mercury levels to level all those blocks. I was also involved setting the outer blocks, which were quite large, and they had to be set very accurate. Those were the ones that would contain all the gun barrels, which were the lines that would go clear through the carbon blocks, clear through the other side. So I continued on that ‘til they got pretty well built clear to the top.</p> <p>Putnam: How long did that take?</p> <p>DeJong: This is something I couldn’t tell you, because—I can tell you this, B, D, and F were all completed during 1943 as far as our portion of the work. Because it was December that I transferred to the 200 Areas, and started working January the first in the 200 Area.</p> <p>Putnam: What was the process of handling these blocks of carbon from the 105 Building to where they were going to be put in? What was the--</p> <p>DeJong: They were hauled there, on pads, and then the rigging crews would pick them up and bring them inside the reactor.</p> <p>Putnam: Did they have to be protected?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, I don’t recall it too much. They were placed very carefully on these supports, and they had to be laid very accurately. I mean, it had to be accurate, if you were off just a little bit—if the height would get out of line, or the width—then the gun barrels would not be able to go clear through the reactors.</p> <p>Putnam: What was their method of aligning them if one was a fraction off?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, we had to move them. Sometimes you’d have to move a whole layer if you got off too far. But the important thing was to be very accurate from the time you laid your first carbon block as you go right on through. And it was checked very carefully, and they had an inspector watching things pretty carefully.</p> <p>Putnam: Was it all enclosed—or, you said they’d bring them over the wall; was the--</p> <p>DeJong: The outer walls were all in at the time you were laying the carbon blocks, right. They were all to height, then you laid your carbon blocks, then after that, then you laid your gun barrels in and run through.</p> <p>Putnam: Must have been difficult to keep it clean enough, with the dust and all? I mean, it sounds like--</p> <p>DeJong: It didn’t seem to be any difficulty there, no. It was pretty clean. They had carloads of Kotex coming in. I mean a lot of Kotex, which made a lot of people wonder why. But those were used as swabs going through the gun barrels and piping. That’s the way we swabbed all those pipes.</p> <p>Putnam: That’s what I’ve heard. The box cars.</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, oh, my!</p> <p>Putnam: Lots of jokes. Well, what John Rector said—he said that they got a bid from Modess. And it was a cheaper bid, and they started buying them. But they didn’t work, because they were wood fiber.</p> <p>DeJong: Right, right, right.</p> <p>Putnam: And they didn’t really hang up. They’d leave a residue. So, anyway, that’s a funny little story. I forgot to ask you that on camera. What was the Hanford Camp and all? Did you live in the camp?</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, we lived right at Hanford in Number 2 Barracks—that was our barracks—and we ate in Number 2 Mess Hall. Food was perfect. They had wonderful food, and a lot of it. I mean, a lot of good dessert. I’ll have to say that; the food was perfect.</p> <p>Putnam: They had great pies, I’ve heard.</p> <p>DeJong: Very nice, oh, yeah. Variety of pies and cake. Boy, we really ate.</p> <p>Putnam: So in November of ’43—that was pretty early, and there must have—what was it like? Was there activity every day and buildings going up all around?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yes, there was a lot of activity all over. There really was quite a bit of activity, you bet. It was a busy place.</p> <p>Putnam: Was it a seven day schedule, seven days a week?</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, well, I worked mostly six days a week, and twelve hours a day. That’s the way they had the shifts pretty much, twelve hours and six days a week.</p> <p>Putnam: Did the work stop on Sunday or were there other people, other shifts working?</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, you’d work your shift then the next shift would come on and work the other 12 hours. That’s the way you got in your 24 hours.</p> <p>Putnam: How much did you know about the Project when you came out? And then as it went on, did you find anything out?</p> <p>DeJong: No, I didn’t know until after I’d been here a short while. I pretty much had it figured out what it was to be. Now after I was made foreman, then, the foremen, the engineers, superintendents were the only ones that ever saw a drawing! And we had to go into a vault inside the reactor building, look at the drawings, figure and get your dimensions, make notes, then you go out to your crew and tell them what to do and what the dimensions were! I had to make notes in my little notebook, you know. It’s hard to remember all those dimensions, but we did pass on the information and it worked out very well.</p> <p>Putnam: So, the drawings—the engineering drawings—would come out and be put in a vaulted--?</p> <p>DeJong: Everything was in a vault. You’d never see a drawing out on the floor; no one saw a drawing except the foremen and the superintendents. Which brings out a strange story, I was 1-A in the draft when I came up here, and I got my notice to go to Spokane to take my physical, with some others. I passed my physical, I came back, and it wasn’t too many days before I got my notice to go into the Army. So I gave this notice to the superintendent, and he says, you cannot go, there’s no way you can get in the Army: you know too much about what is going on. This is a highly secret project. So I did not have to go in the Army. My two brothers did, but I did not. But it kind of gives you an idea.</p> <p>Putnam: Were some people drafted that might not have had the access to the securer matters from Hanford? Did some get drafted? Did you know of any?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh yeah, there’s a lot of people that didn’t have that information No, no, I don’t think anyone was ever drafted that knew anything about what was going on. In fact, General Groves was there one day out on a truck talking to everyone and telling us how important this project was. It was snowing and it was cold. He said the Germans are working on the same thing; we must get this finished first. But he didn’t tell us what it was. But it was interesting.</p> <p>Putnam: What did you do after construction was finished—construction of B Reactor?</p> <p>DeJong: After the B Reactor, then I was transferred to D Reactor. And completed that, and then we went to F. And when F was completed is when I left there to go back to Operations. And January 1^st, ‘45 is when I started Operations.</p> <p>Putnam: At B Reactor?</p> <p>DeJong: No, operations in the 200 Areas. I’m sorry, 200 Areas.</p> <p>Putnam: That’s the separations area.</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, right.</p> <p>Putnam: Was that effort going on—when did they start building T Plant?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, T Plant was quite early, because I remember standing on top of the F Reactor and seeing smoke coming out of the stacks. They were actually started operating T Plant, because you could see the colored smoke coming out of the stacks. It was very interesting, yeah.</p> <p>Putnam: That was the separation side of it?</p> <p>DeJong: That was the separations side of it.</p> <p>Putnam: And they were helping that, obviously, on a schedule to—</p> <p>DeJong: Right, right.</p> <p>Putnam: Were you aware of startup in September of ’44, when the plant first began to run? Were you aware—or were you there?</p> <p>DeJong: You mean in the 200 Areas?</p> <p>Putnam: No, in B--</p> <p>DeJong: No, I was not aware of it then. Well, I heard about it but I couldn’t fix a date to the time. I was very, very busy when I was in 200 Area. Oh, I was a busy man. We were very busy there.</p> <p>Putnam: What were you doing there?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, for a short time, I was a millwright, only maybe two or three weeks, until I moved up to a foreman, see. Then I was foreman for a while. And then when they were building PUREX, I was moved to engineering and I was on the inspection of PUREX, every part of that, while it was being built. When it was finished, then I became planner and scheduler and started hiring the help to operate, do the maintenance, operation of PUREX. But—</p> <p>Putnam: That was later on.</p> <p>DeJong: That was later on. Oh, I think before that I worked at T Plant for a short time, and U Plant. I was the foreman there at U Plant. Oh, it’s hard to remember everything.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh, sure. Is it right to assume that, because this separations facility would not have anything from Hanford to separate until the reactor had run for a while, that they were on a later schedule?</p> <p>DeJong: I was foreman at B Plant in Separations for a while, you know, there. I had all of the crews--all of the maintenance crews there, in fact we even had to the tank farm maintenance at that time. There’s one story I can tell; I don’t know whether you want to hear it or not.</p> <p>Putnam: Sure.</p> <p>DeJong: But I was driving a company car to B Plant, and to pull up to the dock, and there’s a large crowd of people all looking up in the air. Flying saucers! Flying saucers!  So I run down and got my binoculars and went around the building where I could get a better view. And they moved so fast, but there were three flying saucers. Now, don’t think this is just a joke. This is true, because Patrol was there, and I asked them, and they said we’ve alerted Moses Lake Air Force. We watched those for a while, and suddenly they were gone. I don’t know whether it’s because the Air Force was showing up or what, but then—there was a lot of us saw that. There were actually three flying saucers there that we saw from B Plant.</p> <p>Putnam: When was that?</p> <p>DeJong: That would be about ’47, 1947, some place in that area, yeah. In fact, when I first went to the 200 Areas, I guess, oh, perhaps six months after that, we used to see some of these balloons from Japan coming over. In fact, the riggers got some parts of one and brought it in.</p> <p>Putnam: I’ve heard a lot of rumors, here. You’re the first person I’ve ever talked to--</p> <p>DeJong: There were actually some; we saw them. In fact, about that time, I had the rigging crews; they were our—see, I once had all of the shops—I was manager of all the shops, all the rigging crews, janitorial services, all of them. And the rigging crews came and showed me that one time.</p> <p>Putnam: Was there knowledge about the balloons coming over before they were seen? Was there any instructions to people as to what they should do if they saw one?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, we were cautioned to beware of those things, because you never knew what explosive they might have, or you know.</p> <p>Putnam: Just tell me the story of the balloons. I mean, do you know how many were sent? Tell us about that. Where did they come from?</p> <p>DeJong: This portion of the story had to be in ’45, before I was manager, I think, because one of the riggers brought one of them up to the shops. I was foreman then. And I recall seeing one going across. And then this other one—the one they found parts of it—that’s all I remember about balloons.</p> <p>Putnam: Let’s see. Oh, gosh.</p> <p>DeJong: It’s kind of a little difficult for me getting my timing right on some of these things, because you’re going back 52 years or—</p> <p>[TAPE SCRAMBLES]</p> <p>Putnam: When was T started?</p> <p>DeJong: T Plant had to be started up in 1944 before I ever got to 200 Areas, because it was in 1944 we were on top of F Reactor, can see that colored smoke coming out of the stacks at T Plant. So they had to have  been operating then.</p> <p>Putnam: In ‘44.</p> <p>DeJong: In ’44.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, it Christmas of ’44, around then, that the first fuel was discharged.</p> <p>Greg Greger: I thought it was later than that. Could they have possibly had some material from the Chicago Test effort?</p> <p>DeJong: Might have done; I don’t know.</p> <p>Putnam: Maybe they were running other chemical process, just to--</p> <p>DeJong: Could’ve been, but it was colored smoke, I know this, colored--</p> <p>Putnam: And that was characteristic of the process itself?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, I thought it might have been, right. And U Plant, of course, that started operating shortly after that, I think.</p> <p>Greger: Good information about living in the Barracks, living in the Camp, and recreation?</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah, tell us about the Hanford Camp. And was that—I’ve heard that was a pretty wild place, and I’ve heard it actually wasn’t a wild place. What was your impression of it?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, I didn’t feel that it was wild, because of course you don’t have that much time there. When you’re working twelve-hour shifts and you’re back, you go to the mess hall to eat, you eat in the morning and you eat at night, it’s—They had the—the women were kept in an enclosure. Their barracks were all enclosed with a high fence, so they were protected. [LAUGHTER] No, I don’t think—I didn’t see any wild activities. They had a theater there, and people had time to go to. And they had a bank there. I do recall so many people there to cash their checks, they didn’t know how to sign, they couldn’t sign their names; they made X’s on their checks. So many of them that did that.</p> <p>Putnam: Now, who ran the camp, and everything was provided for you, wasn’t it?</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, everything was provided, right. It was handled very well.</p> <p>Putnam: What were barracks like?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, they were kind of crowded. I think there was—some of them had four bunkers in there. You know, you sleep on bunks: two levels, two levels. You didn’t stay in there very long anyway, but you’re in there to sleep. But they were all right, I can’t complain. In those days, when you’re young, you don’t think about things like that. You’re tired and you want to sleep.</p> <p>Putnam: What can you tell us about working for the DuPont Company? I mean, people have generally said that DuPont was very well organized. And what about that, the effort involved in organizing so many people for so long and doing such an--</p> <p>DeJong: I believe that DuPont did an excellent job, I really do. They were with it. There was no waste of time. They seemed to have pretty good control of everything that we did. There was no problems, no discontent that I know of. I was certainly happy with them and they promoted me fairly early after I got there, and they treated me nice, really.</p> <p>Greger: Did DuPont give an official reason for them giving up the contract to leave when GE took over?</p> <p>DeJong: Not that I recall. I do not recall. Pension-wise, it did not help me too much. I get a very, very small pension from DuPont, part would be from Remington Arms and part of it out here, the one year, roughly.</p> <p>Putnam: Do you know the terms of the contract that DuPont had? What were the conditions under which DuPont was hired?</p> <p>DeJong: I don’t know. I really don’t know anything about the contract.</p> <p>Putnam: What do you remember most from that period of time in ’43-’44? In your experience, what stands out the most in your mind?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, there was considerable activity; there was so much work going on. I had one difficult period: I wanted to get my wife up here. I was living in the barracks for so long, I had a young son. So one day on a Sunday, one of the fellows that was a foreman that I worked with had a car, so we drove to Yakima. Drove and drove. And I finally found a home. A lady had an apartment, and she really questioned me very carefully, and it was a nice lady. And she says, okay, we’ll give you an apartment. So I got my wife up here—I think it was March that I got her up here. The only problem was, I was working from 6:00 to 6:00. It was an odd shift, the portion of work that I was involved in at the reactor, and the buses didn’t leave until 8:00 at the barricade up there to go to Yakima. So I wouldn’t—I’d have to be two hours before catching a bus, I’d get home about 10:00, sometimes 10:30 in the morning, I had to get up a 2:00 to catch my bus to get back to work. Can you imagine that?  So my wife stayed ‘til about September and then she went back to Utah, and--</p> <p>Putnam: That was a rough day.</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, that was rough, that was rough. That was the hard part of it.</p> <p>Putnam: Was everybody working that hard?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, I don’t think there’s too many that traveled but there were some. Roads were real rough, buses were rough, shaky. Gosh, they were shaky, but--</p> <p>Putnam: Pretty dusty?</p> <p>DeJong: Dusty and rough. It was rough, yeah. So I didn’t get much rest, oh, boy. And you had to work hard, you’re busy, yeah.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: --is where they were when they heard the news that the bomb had been dropped. And if that was that the first time they knew, and how that affected them. Do you recall?</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, I was manager of the shops when I heard that. Because one of the foremen rushed up to me and heard they’ve dropped a bomb on Hiroshima, yeah. And that was—when was that, ‘45?</p> <p>Putnam: August of ‘45.</p> <p>DeJong: August of ’45?</p> <p>Putnam: Did you immediately associate that with Hanford in any way?</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, I did, oh, you bet. There was a lot of talk going on when we heard that. I can’t remember whether I was manager of the shops at that time or not. It seems like that’s where I heard it, but my memory is slipping.</p> <p>Putnam: Mine is, too, and I’m a lot younger than you.</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, gosh.  I guess if I knew more about the questions you were going to hit me with, I would’ve been better prepared.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh, that’s not a problem at all. And in fact, we want spontaneous memories and impressions, too. Jim Acord said that he had a very enjoyable trip out to B Reactor with you, and that it was quite fascinating.</p> <p>DeJong: Who?</p> <p>Putnam: Jim Acord, who was—</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yes.</p> <p>Putnam: He said that you had a nice trip out there. Tell me about that. What were you guys doing out there? It was the first time you had been out there in a while, wasn’t it?</p> <p>DeJong: Out at the B?</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah.</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, we hadn’t been there in, oh gosh, several years, several years.</p> <p>Putnam: That must bring back a lot of memories?</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, oh yeah. I want to change one story a little bit. I was not manager of shops when that bomb was dropped. I remember it was later on, the foreman rushed up to tell me that was when President Roosevelt was shot, that’s what it was. But it had nothing to do with the—so, I’m sorry. No, I don’t know where I was when I heard that, about that bomb being dropped. I just don’t recall.</p> <p>Putnam: But you did, you did understand that it was the--</p> <p>DeJong: Oh yeah we did, we knew that, you bet.</p> <p>Putnam: Was there a lot of celebrating, or—how did people react generally to it?</p> <p>DeJong: There wasn’t a lot of celebrating, but there was a lot of reaction to it. I don’t know much—I don’t recall any celebrating.</p> <p>Greger: I’m curious about one thing. You knew what you were making, because of your position, and--</p> <p>DeJong: Yes, I knew.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you know at that time—was it said that this would end up as a bomb? Or how did they describe it its end result? Or did they?</p> <p>DeJong: I knew it was going to end up as a bomb, yes. I knew that early in the game. Right, right.</p> <p>Putnam: You must have had been one of the very few people that did know.</p> <p>DeJong: No, there was others who knew it. There was another fellow that worked with me; he’d gone and been to university studying a little about it. He was a good friend that came up here with me, and he knew what it was. And we both talked about it.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, security--tell us a little bit about security. It was very tight, wasn’t it?</p> <p>DeJong: Security was very tight, very tight. It was good. All the way through, even with operations, it’s been very good. You bet. No, I can’t complain about security; it was very well done.</p> <p>Greger: Did you know of any cases where people were—well—were perhaps terminated or any action taken on them because of security violations? Did you ever hear of that?</p> <p>DeJong: No. Only thing I recall—once, when I was manager of the shops, one craftsman, apparently an alcoholic, and he used to bring some alcohol in his thermos bottle. And I don’t know—I wandered through the shops quite a bit—and one time I’m watching him, so I walked up to him and I could smell the alcohol. So I said, this is it, I’m gonna have Patrol take you home. And I said, when you come back, there’ll be no more drinking on the job, or you’ll be fired, you know. And by golly, Patrol took him home, I never had a problem with him since. In fact, his wife called me one time and thanked me. She says, he’s away from alcohol. So people can get away from it. Isn’t that something? Yeah.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. Well, let’s see. We covered most of our—</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Greger: --B Reactor, when you were assigned there, what would a typical day involving you, what would you be doing? Was it mostly aligning the blocks of graphite?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, that was part of it, yeah.  And doing different—setting equipment, you know, ventilation systems, heating systems, cooling systems, and part of that. And then setting the blocks. Those huge blocks, they had to be so accurate. I spent a lot of time on that. And also after the walls were built, we had to set some blocks down to support the carbon, and boy those things had to be perfect. We used mercury levels to set those blocks, so that when the carbon was on, we had no difficulty afterwards, you know, by settlement and whatever.</p> <p>Putnam: How were those blocks handled? What kind of machine or tool was used to actually position them accurately, as you say?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, they were set of course with cranes, and I guess we had to—it’s hard to remember a lot of that. You know, I’m sorry.</p> <p>Greger: It’s all right.</p> <p>DeJong: I’m sorry. But, I guess--</p> <p>Greger: I always think of it as a fragile thing, and I’m not clear on how you could even have something that would grip them while you’re positioning them.</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, the carbon blocks—if you’re talking about the carbon blocks—they slide pretty easy.</p> <p>Greger: Yes.</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, we can move those pretty easy.</p> <p>Greger: Yeah. What were the other blocks, then, that you were referring to?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, they were heavy material to support the whole weight, you know. They were heavy blocks.</p> <p>Greger: Of what material?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, I don’t remember now. Jeez! I don’t remember. I just don’t remember! Hmm!</p> <p>Greger: Probably a combination of metal—iron and something?</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, metal, concrete maybe, I don’t know. Isn’t that strange, I can’t remember that? I didn’t do that too long. Most of my time was with the carbon blocks and the outer blocks.</p> <p>Greger: They’re relatively light.</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, yeah.</p> <p>Greger: How big was—I know there were probably certain sizes, but how big was an average carbon block?</p> <p>DeJong: Seems like they were four or five foot long, maybe five or six inches square. I don’t know. There’s another thing that is hard to remember.</p> <p>Putnam: And all of them pre-drilled so that--</p> <p>DeJong: Everything was, they were all pre-drilled and pre-machined, to accuracy.</p> <p>Greger: So that the tubes could be slid in.</p> <p>DeJong: Our main objective was to be sure they all lined up.</p> <p>Greger: Were you out there at the time when they began putting up the tubes and these kinds of things?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yes, yeah.</p> <p>Greger: Were there any problems that you saw?</p> <p>DeJong: No, not that I recall, no. Putting in tubes.</p> <p>Greger: What was their sequence of during the reactor? Did they do from bottom-up, putting in the, I suppose the gun barrel first, then the tubes?</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, bottom-up, as I recall, bottom-up, right. I remember the gun barrels were welded in while we were building and putting the blocks. While they were set, the welders were welding in the gun barrels, they’d go just so far through, then your other tubes would go right on through, all the way, through the gun barrels. And I do remember one thing: the welders all had a helper working with them, you know, to help them move things and clean the weld if it has to be chipped, you know. And one welder was saying to this one young fellow that was working with him, now watch it. He meant for him to close his eyes, and after a while this fellow says, I can’t watch it anymore! I can’t see anymore! Gosh. Yeah, I remember that.</p> <p>Greger: Bad choice of words.</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah.</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, can’t watch it anymore.</p> <p>Putnam: How many people were actually onsite? What was the crew sizes? I mean, were there hundreds of people?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh yeah, there were hundreds of people. Probably have as many as twelve or fifteen in a crew, depending on what your activity was, yeah.</p> <p>Putnam: But at any given time, there would be a lot of people?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yeah, because there’s all kinds of other activities, see. My crew’s working strictly on the reactor. Well, there’s other work going on around the reactor. There’s lot of activity inside and around.</p> <p>Greger: With you folks working a twelve hour shift out there, how did you handle a meal during this period? Did you take a lunch, or what was the process?</p> <p>DeJong: Yeah, we took a lunch. And we had our meals at Number 2 Barracks before we came out and when we came back.</p> <p>Greger: And out at the Site, you ate one meal there?</p> <p>DeJong: Ate a lunch, yeah. We took a lunch.</p> <p>Greger: Did they have facilities for that?</p> <p>DeJong: Not that I recall, no. No, no. Something I just—trying to think of. Hit my mind when we were talking.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: The bus from where you stayed—how did they manage all that?</p> <p>DeJong: Well, the bus going—well, they just had a bus taking you right up to your job site. There was no problem.</p> <p>Greger: There must have been thousands of people being taken.</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yes there was. Oh, you bet.</p> <p>Greger: That was a whole problem--</p> <p>DeJong: That’s right. See, when work was going on at B Reactor, they were already started working on D Reactor and then right on to F Reactor. So while you’re still at B, there’s work going on at D, and maybe possible little bit at F, doing the ground work and getting ready for it.</p> <p>Putnam: What can you say of the magnitude of the reactors themselves and of the Manhattan Project? I mean, it was immense, wasn’t it? Wasn’t it one of the biggest?</p> <p>DeJong: Oh yeah, it was a tremendous activity, you bet. It was big. Of course, as you say, a lot of people didn’t know what it was, but I think gradually the word must have got around a little bit. We couldn’t talk about anything like that, it was something you just didn’t talk about it. But—I don’t know.</p> <p>Putnam: It’s an impressive achievement, a huge accomplishment.  </p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yes, yes. It was a tremendous accomplishment. And imagine building three reactors in one year. Look how many years it takes to build one now. It was a lot of work done. It went fast, amazingly fast.</p> <p>Greger: Here’s this old term termination wind. Did you want to comment on the situation where some people came and looked it over and maybe decided it wasn’t for them? Did you--</p> <p>DeJong: Hmm, I don’t recall any of that, I think that most of the people stayed. I think so, yeah.</p> <p>Greger: Did you get into town—Richland—very often?</p> <p>DeJong: No, no, the only time I ever got to go any place was Yakima. And sometimes we’d drive over to Grandview or Prosser to eat, you know, just to get a change, we’d do that sometimes. One of the guys had a car, so we’d do that. But, no, I never got started going to Richland until around 1945. Got my first house there, January of ‘45, got my wife back up here. Gosh. Oh, there was something I was going to tell you, but now I—</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>DeJong: Oh, yes, I think people, they don’t talk much, but everybody was working hard to get the thing done. There wasn’t any goof off there at all. People were really working. That’s one time they were really working, during that war period, mm-hmm, yeah. Gosh.</p> <p>[TAPE CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: So, you just kind of walked around the building and you saw this? Tell us.</p> <p>DeJong: No, actually I was driving—I’d been to a meeting, and I was driving a company car up to the dock of a building, and I saw so many people out there. And I parked the car, and they said, flying saucers up there, three of them!  So I ran down—my office was in the basement of 271-B—and got my binoculars. And I saw for a moment and then they went behind the building so I run down around the end of the building to get a better view and that’s when I run into the patrolman. And I says, flying saucers, and he says, yes, we’ve alerted the Moses Lake Air Force. And, boy, I was watching--</p> <p>Greger: Ever hear if they sent up anything?</p> <p>DeJong: I never saw the Air Force. That’s what makes me wonder if the government was involved in those some way.</p> <p>Putnam: Can you describe the shape again?</p> <p>DeJong: Saucer shaped. They were, no question.</p> <p>Putnam: And moving?</p> <p>DeJong: And white colored, and, boy, they moved fast.</p> <p>Greger: I guess you can say we are relatively a minor planet here—small. And there are folks out there who have done things far beyond us.</p> <p>Putnam: Certainly a recurring theme.</p> <p>Greger: Yeah. Not quite ready to believe those people who claim they were taken aboard, but—</p> <p>Putnam: Yeah. Well, like I say, I’ve never had that experience with it, but it certainly makes you reflect and think about it. I can see that if you had seen it, it would make a believer out of you.</p> <p>DeJong: You know I’m trying to think hard when I was made foreman: whether it was still at B or at D. I kind of suspect it was D. This Earl Wiesner, I was telling you about, he was an iron worker; and I had a record of laying more carbon blocks, my crew than anybody ever did, you ask Earl Wiesner, he was a rigger boy, he was telling the story about it.</p> <p>Greger: I’ve been trying to get in touch with him but nobody answers the phone.</p> <p>DeJong: I don’t know whether he’s away or not. He might be.</p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:42:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 224kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rudy DeJong Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation B Reactor National Historic Landmark (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Rudy DeJong conducted by Bill Putnam for the B Reactor Museum Association. Clement was a Construction Foreman at the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/6/1995 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4A https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbc180925cde6af3f91c015b08c3e78fb.mp4 d1d2cc8102f430506099aea4eaa79765 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Freimeyer Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p>Interviewer One: Well she did have kind of a—if you listened to her, kind of an oddball on the first round.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Okay, if you could just kind of start by telling us your name, your background and what your function was here, and then we’ll go back into—</p> <p>Jim Freimyer: Are you ready now?</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Mm-hmm.</p> <p>Freimyer: My name is Jim Freimyer. I came to Hanford from Morgantown, West Virginia in August of 1944. I was working for DuPont in the ammonia division. The opportunities came up to transfer to Hanford if you so desired. At that time, it was—and still was—a very hush-hush project. All I knew was that I was going to Pasco, Washington, I knew my job title, and I knew my salary. And they gave you your travel allowances, tickets, and so forth. I went on two weeks’ vacation, and then I came to Hanford. Fortunately, in the Pullman car from Chicago, I shared one of the bunk sections with a Dr. Meyers, who was a metallurgist. He commuted quite frequently between Chicago and Hanford. We knew several people in common, so I felt like I was slightly indoctrinated before I got to Hanford. And he said, don’t worry, as soon as we get there, why, I know you’ve got orders to go to the transient quarters. And he said, I’ll have a car waiting there for me. He says, why, he’ll bring us both up to the old transient quarters. So when we got in, I looked back and there was two sections of trains practically every day from Chicago. And people with armbands said DuPont on it. I wondered what the score was, so I found out later that these people with the armbands were sort of guarding the second section to keep them from jumping ship! [LAUGHTER] And it was quite—I shall never remember the first time I crossed—entered—the Pasco depot. There was drunks and mess everywhere, and you had to dodge all this. He and I were still together, and finally this driver came up and he was announcing for Dr. Meyers. So finally we got together with the driver, and he explained to the driver that I was in the operating crew and had to go to the transient quarters, and he’d like to travel along with me. No, sir, we can’t do it. My orders are for you, and that’s all I’m taking. So that particular night, why, right across from the Pasco depot they had sort of a marshalling yard for all the incoming employees on the second section of the train. Well, we must have gotten into Pasco at about, oh, 1:30. And I had to wait until they processed the complete second section train before they would attempt to bring me to the transient quarters in Richland. They brought me by myself on a bus. Only passenger. I was awakened the next morning by a swishing sound. I looked out the window—hadn’t been in bed over two or three hours—and I saw the first sprinkler of my lifetime. It was one of those—oh, what do you call them—impact sprinklers. So, I couldn’t tell what the terrain was like. But I inquired, and I went over to the old 703 Building. And I reported in to the office of Murray Acker. He was the superintendent of the power group. During the time that I took for vacation, why, they had processed me and clearance and everything, so I was in employment just a few minutes. And then I went back to Mr. Acker’s office and he took me to B Reactor. I had never been in the West before, and sagebrush and thistle was something new to me. At that time of the year, it was hot as the dickens. I thought I’d burn up. So, we traveled for roughly 30 miles, and we got to B Reactor. I was in awe by the immensity of the Project, and this was only one reactor. My job back east was to supervise the filter plants, the waste disposal pumping stations, and the water treatment and powerhouse. But ours was very small as compared to what we saw here. So, I’ll let you give me a few questions.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: How did you first hear—how were you recruited? How did you first hear of the Project?</p> <p>Freimyer: I think it was through supervision word of mouth. Prior to my applying to come here, several people that were in the same department I was in had already left. For instance, Ed O’Black was one of them. He was one of our substation operators on our generator panels. So I just decided that I’d give it a try. Today, it’d scare me to death to think about something like that. Going all the way across country. But we were young, so we gave it a try. I might add, I didn’t know it at the time, but I indirectly observed some of the tests on equipment later used at Hanford. Particularly, the 190 pumping equipment. If you recall, Interviewer One, you had that big fly wheel? To give you that stored energy for that few seconds you needed it on the reactor? Well, those tests were conducted—I saw them build the facilities and conduct the tests. But it was hush-hush. I didn’t know what it was for.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: When you first came here, what did you see? I mean, how far along was the Project at that point?</p> <p>Freimyer: Oh, I came here in August. They went critical in September. So as far as B Reactor was concerned, it was just primarily mop-up work before the reactor started. Because it was only about six weeks’ interval there, or so. And our job was to—on some of the facilities, they weren’t quite complete—we would inspect them for cleanliness and the capability of starting the facilities.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: At that point, how much did you know about the Project itself? I mean, you must have known it was war related, did you know—</p> <p>Freimyer: I knew it was war-related. It was very important, because management back east, and also here, emphasized those facts. But at that time, I didn’t know. But shortly thereafter, I did. It was hard in those days of being a supervisor of trying to convince people that their efforts were worthwhile, since you couldn’t tell them the whole story.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: What did you do? How did you do that? How did you get them motivated?</p> <p>Freimyer: Primarily by telling them the same as you had been told. That someday they would be proud to have taken part in the Project; that it was about the top priority in the United States. And they bought it. In fact, in those days, we had war bond drives quite frequently. And you would be amazed at some of these operators that we had that were former carpenters or millwrights or so forth on construction, the money that they used to buy war bonds with. They were very patriotic.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Was there a sense of being involved in a real patriotic effort? I mean, was there kind of a group spirit?</p> <p>Freimyer: Oh, yes, there was. Group spirit in everything.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Let me ask you that question again, and if you could make a full statement on that.</p> <p>Interviewer One: I was going to say, it would be interesting to hear what kind of rumors there must have been of what it was. I’m sure people were guessing.</p> <p>Freimyer: Oh, yes, there was rumors. It’s the old common one. Two little kids playing and one asked the other one, what does your daddy do out there? And he says, well, he works in the toilet paper factory. Well how do you know that? That’s all he ever brings home! [LAUGHTER] That’s one of them. Well, to be frank, people were told, and when they were indoctrinated in their security aspects of the place, the people just learned to keep their mouth shut. On the job or in town, you didn’t say anything. Period. Not even to your wife, friends, at a party. They knew that people that tipped their elbow pretty heavy, they were under scrutiny. Aside from being patriotic, people were just afraid to say anything, because they knew their job, livelihood, and possible prosecution would be forthcoming.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Was there—I was born in 1945 and certainly don’t remember anything about wartime, or—I remember the post-war period—but in the country or here, in a sense, what was the feeling like during the war? I mean, it was—were things pretty desperate?</p> <p>Freimyer: In what way do you mean desperate?</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Well, I mean, a sense that there was a really feeling that we were in it as a fight to the finish, right?</p> <p>Freimyer: Oh, yes.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: I mean, it was not just something that was far away, and that people were going to—the only war I lived through was the Vietnam War, and it was kind of removed, and it didn’t really affect us much back in this country, except for the demonstrations.</p> <p>Freimyer: The whole atmosphere of the American people as far as patriotism is concerned, I think started changing some in the Korean War. But then it was a direct flip-flop in Vietnam. Those conditions weren’t prevalent during World War II. Everybody was patriotic. They did everything they could to further the war effort.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Well in the war—and it was—there was rationing, there was—you’re giving up things, you’re making real sacrifices.</p> <p>Freimyer: You were rationing on meat, well, fruits, practically everything. But people took it in stride.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Can you give me a full statement, just basically a statement of description about, how did people feel about how much—were people affected by the war effort, and what did they have to do?</p> <p>Freimyer: Well, meat was rationed, butter, a lot of your scarce commodities that the armed services needed. People had no qualms about doing it. They might gripe a little, but you very seldom heard that. They were just patriotic, as far as I can see.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: And there was a real sense of contributing to the war effort.</p> <p>Freimyer: Right, there was.</p> <p>Interviewer One: Most of them had relatives who were in the service, or—</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Right, uh-huh. Okay. Let’s see.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Freimyer: I’d like to explain one thing to you that—in 1944, well, when most people in the operating group left the East, they were supposed to have a house waiting for them. I think everybody was told that. But when they got here they found that it was a horse of a different story. That they were still building, as rapidly as they could, but they couldn’t satisfy the demand. I recall, along with one or two that’s on this list that Interviewer One gave me, we were sent to live in sort of a barracks type thing in Kennewick, on 10^th Avenue, about where the Kennewick General Hospital is now built, in that section there. And I can recall, I had to get up at 4:00 in the morning to get to work at eight. I had to walk from 10^th Avenue to the old Pollyanna Café on Avenue C. I don’t know whether you remember it. It’s where Pennwynn Plumbing and Heating is now located. I got on an intercity bus. And by the time I got to the Area, I had changed buses five times. And that made a long day of it. I had to repeat it in the evening. Well, fortunately, I only had to put up with that for about six weeks or two months.</p> <p>Interviewer One: [INAUDIBLE] suggested a question. I wondered how, from their point of view, what happened at the time it started [INAUDIBLE]?</p> <p>Freimyer: As far as going critical or so forth, we in the other end really weren’t in on the actual details. As far as we were concerned, we were told to start or stop or accelerate the facilities. And that was about the end of it. I do recall seeing several of the noted scientists that were here at that time. I recall seeing Dr. Fermi. I didn’t know him from Adam then, but I did later. There were several of them here at that time. But as far as actually going critical, I don’t think anyone outside of the knowledgeable reactor crew knew about it.</p> <p>Interviewer One: How was the news of what it really was—how was that released? What kind of an impact did that have?</p> <p>Freimyer: In 1945, prior to—well it was in, I’d say, June or July of ’45—management talked to each of us and told us that there would be some news forthcoming. To neither confirm nor deny the release. When I first heard about it, I was back east, due to a death in the family. The news broke when the bomb was dropped. At that time—I was in West Virginia—you hardly saw anything about Hanford. It was all Oak Ridge. And when I got back, why, the employees were just flabbergasted, the town and everybody else, when the news release came out.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: How did you feel, and how did the other people feel, when you learned what it was?</p> <p>Freimyer: I felt good, because it shortened the war. I don’t regret it at all. And I think the right decision was made. I do feel one thing about people—about the nukes and so forth. But I also feel that we have gone through over 45 years of world peace—I’m speaking on the—in the magnitude that we had in World War II. Had it not been for the atomic bomb, I don’t think that we would have experienced that. Now, to me, I’m more concerned about our threat today than I ever have been.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: What do you mean?</p> <p>Freimyer: By the break up in Russia. Because I think you’ve lost your control.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Yeah, it seems--</p> <p>Freimyer: Also, a lot of these other countries are on the threshold of developing nuclear weapons. When the two super powers were in control, each of them had enough sense not to start anything. But some of these smaller countries—</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Freimyer: We have more employees here than we did during the days of nine reactors going and several separations plants.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Uh-huh. That’s hard to believe, isn’t it?</p> <p>Freimyer: So you can see where the effort is.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Yeah. And it’s probably going to be more people coming, too, with all the—</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Interviewer Two: We just talked about. One, the first one Greg asked about, what kind was the—how then—I think, how did the nuclear technology develop, or what—</p> <p>Freimyer: No, his question was—</p> <p>Interviewer One: I said, communicated to the employees who didn’t know anything.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Oh, right.</p> <p>Freimyer: At that time, shortly after the bomb was dropped and VJ Day occurred, the Manhattan Project came out with an official publication that explained the whole thing. It was called the Smyth Report. I don’t recall where this fellow was from—it could have been MIT—but one of the prestigious schools in the East. I would like to make one comment, though, and it has always been my feeling that our federal government is very much remiss as far as nuclear energy is concerned. It’ll be our energy of the future. But the mistake was made back in 1945 that they did not try start an educational program in the schools to teach the children the merits of nuclear energy. Consequently, people have to form their own opinion. There was a lot of communications through your various media that overkilled the subject, there was half-truths, and the public in general runs scared when nuclear energy is concerned. And we have to contend with—just on the west side of our state here, they’re all anti-nukes. I can’t understand why they let it go. Okay?</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Yep. Well, I remember Atoms for Peace, under Eisenhower and that. There was some effort at that time, but then not much after that.</p> <p>Freimyer: What amazes me is your chemical plants throughout the United States industrial complex. You can have an explosion and you can kill several and injure dozens more and all you see is a three- or four-inch article in the newspaper. But let somebody get a very slight exposure in nuclear energy, and they’ll paste it all over the front page.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Interviewer Two: What would you like to tell not only people today, but future generations about the experience of being involved in the early days of the nuclear age, if you will?</p> <p>Freimyer: Well, I’m proud to have been a part of it. As I said before, I don’t regret it, and the lives that were lost in Japan. One way of looking at it—I believe that there was an article in the paper not too long ago that quoted Fermi, that said if it hadn’t been a miscalculation on his part, Hitler would have had it. Did you read that quote, Interviewer One? Yup. I read it somewhere.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Do you know what that was, that miscalculation?</p> <p>Freimyer: I’ll tell you where it was. It was in that book of that fellow that interviewed residents of Richland that were here during the early days. It’s a quotation in that book.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Okay. Great.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Freimyer: During the war that we had shortages in several things, but as I mentioned, the American people got accustomed to doing without those things. I felt we had a good life then. We had our social activities and so forth, and I don’t think we suffered. I think we all had fairly good times. One thing was the camaraderie of the people here at Hanford. Because everyone you ran across was from somewhere else. And to me, I think that added to the interest of everything. No, I’ve enjoyed it. I’m glad I came here.</p> <p>Interviewer One: You’re retiring here, right?</p> <p>Freimyer: I retired here, and fact of the matter, every time I get east of the Rockies, I want to turn around and come back.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: When you hear of the efforts to preserve the B Reactor, are you in favor of that?</p> <p>Freimyer: Yes, I think I am, because that could be a national monument to the commercial production of plutonium. And I think it’s worthwhile. Of course, the main thing there is can you get enough support to do it?</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Okay.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Interviewer One: --this is a serious war is that the news of how much damage there was at Pearl Harbor wasn’t released for almost a year. And I remember when I saw those headlines of all those battleships that were sunk, all the sudden it made me think, this is mighty serious business.</p> <p>Freimyer: Yeah.</p> <p>Interviewer One: Because I know the attitude when I first heard, oh, they first bombed us, oh well, we’ll take care of them in a couple of weeks.</p> <p>Freimyer: Greg, if you don’t have this book, I think I’ve got a copy at home.</p> <p>Interviewer One: I think I have it, yeah, but I’ll look--</p> <p>Freimyer: It’s one of Charlie [INAUDIBLE] They interviewed both scientific, lay, and technical people here at Hanford.</p> <p>Interviewer Two: Okay.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:03:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 127kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jim Freimyer Oral History Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation B Reactor National Historic Landmark (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Jim Freimeyer for the B Reactor Museum Association. Freimeyer was a Power Supervisor at the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/14/1991 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F86ccc4680b6f95df9eec82fb23d81c2a.mpg 1f8ff84cb00315dc73571df7affcc201 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tom Putnam Greg Greger Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Annette Heriford Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p>Tom Putnam: And kind of what place you are in this story, just identify yourself and then if you could just begin telling us—</p> <p>Greg Greger: When your parents got here.</p> <p>Annette Heriford: Yes, well I’m Annette Heriford, and my parents—my actual history started back around 1910 when my father and his brother came out here because of some big publicity on the Hanford Project—the Hanford-White Bluffs area. They had a cousin that was in real estate and they were promoting this area as the earliest fruit-producing section in the Northwest. I don’t think either one of them had ever farmed or done any type of orchard growing—or fruit growing, I should say. But they came out in 1910, and then my father went back east and met my mother—this was in 1918—1919, and she came out to Hanford. At first she said she thought it was the jumping-off place of the whole country. But they both learned to love the country. I was born in Kennewick, 1920, and returned to Hanford when I was nine days old. So that was my real home.</p> <p>Putnam: I think—excuse me—I think I’m going to have to ask Jim.</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Putnam: Okay. Start again with you name.</p> <p>Heriford: Okay. My name is Annette Heriford, formerly Annette Buckholdt. I’m a true native of the Hanford-White Bluffs area. My history started back in 1910 when my father and his brother came out to Hanford. They had a cousin in real estate and he was promoting this area as—with everyone else at that time—it was the earliest fruit-producing section of the Northwest. So they invested all their money in the Hanford. We lived out about three-and-a-half miles. And I lived there and went to college at the University of Washington, and in fact, I was in my last year when we received word in March of 1943 that we’d have to move out, and we had 30 days’ notice. And that was quite a shock. After the initial shock and—finally resigned myself to the fact that I was going to be a part of this war effort, we were so busy working—we worked six days a week. Once in a while, I’d work seven days and nine hours a day. So that I didn’t have time to really think about all the unpleasantries of having to move and lose my home town, and all of my friends. The fellas had gone off to war in 1941. I was reading my diary the other day, and it said in 1941, I was at the University, and I believe it was—that was on a Sunday. And on the 8^th, I wrote in there that I can’t believe that I would ever live to see the day that the shades would have to be drawn, we had blackouts, and I had forgotten some of this until I reviewed that. But it was quite a time in history.</p> <p>Greger: I think, maybe, a point that you might expand on is a little bit about the community—the kind of community it was, and particularly relating to Richland. Was Richland just a town out there that you maybe played in your school sports or what? And then another—we’ll ask another question and I think maybe we want also a little bit more of your and other—what you think are other people’s feelings about how was this takeover really done? How did you hear about it, and other than the official notice, were there rumors ahead of time? I think this is of interest. But you might start with growing up in this kind of a thing.</p> <p>Heriford: Oh, it was a marvelous place to grow up. I thought—and still think—it was the greatest place that a child could ever grow up in. And all of the people that’d come to our White Bluffs-Hanford reunion say the same thing. Because we had such a freedom. We swam, we rode horseback and we hiked. I said, we felt like the Indians before us, because this is what we did, was sort of replace the Indians that have roamed there. However, we did mix. The Wanapum Indians came down and they had rodeos. They came to the stores there. I have some videotapes of some of their activities that way. But no, if I could name any place in the United States, that would be the place that I would have liked to have raised my children. But we had such a close-knit community—or communities. If there was any activity going on, everybody in the community participated in it. The schools—we had good teachers. And of course, we lived in a different era. Then we were leaving—pardon me—learning reading, writing and arithmetic and discipline. And in those days, you respected the older people. You respected your teachers, even if you weren’t always satisfied with what they were saying. But the people still have that bond. And other people marvel at the bond we have amongst our members. Because we still carry that. It’s not like friends down the street; we were all one family. If somebody needed help, why, we helped them.</p> <p>Greger: You might take a bit of time to tell us about the White Bluffs group, which you’ve been talking about. How long have they operated, and what is their official name?</p> <p>Heriford: Oh, we’re the White Bluffs-Hanford Pioneer Association, and this all started the summer that they had been evacuated. Of course, most of them had to leave in March of 1943. They had the 30 days—March or April. And they started meeting in the Prosser park. This continued up until our 25^th year. And then we met in Richland, and we received permission from the Department of Energy to go back to our home sites for the first time in 25 years. You have to realize that the fellas who’d gone off to war and perhaps left, some of them in ’41, but ’42 anyway, and they had never stepped foot on their home site from that time. So they had no homes to come back to. It was a sad time for them. It was a sad time for all of us. But despite that, when we get together, we don’t remember any of the unhappiness that came about. We just have a real good time when we’re gathering out there at the river and along our old home sites, and where these schools used to be.</p> <p>Greger: I think, for this purpose, we probably would like to hear what you have to say about the reaction to this notification. Was there any clues ahead of time? What about that? How did people feel? What did they do?</p> <p>Heriford: No, we really didn’t have a clue ahead of time. I think it was in December—November, December—that I noticed that they were drilling down at—would have been the west end of our orchard. And my dad and I said, gee, wouldn’t it be wonderful if they were drilling for uranium and they would find it, or oil or something. We had no idea. So when we received official notice that we had 30 days, most of us were in shock. In fact, now, when I look back, I don’t remember going to see some of my friends that lived clear on the other end of town. You didn’t have time to think, gosh, I wonder what they’re going to do, or where are they going to move. You were so busy with your own immediate family. In this case, my father and I found out that if we went to work for them, we could stay in our home. We lived three-and-a-half miles outside of town. So we did. I went to work in blueprint. My father—I don’t know what he did right at first—but then he was surveying. In fact, he ended up surveying the street that I later lived on where the Jefferson School was built and where my father graduated. But we have histories written about the people, how they felt and it’s just something you can’t describe—to lose so much in such a hurry. If somebody were to knock on your door today, and you had no forewarning, and saying you would have to leave, you would lose your friends, your town, and you would move some distance away. You’d just about have to put yourself in that position and wonder how you would feel about it.</p> <p>Putnam: What had happened? Give us an idea of what kind of condition people were faced with.</p> <p>Heriford: We didn’t have any money. People didn’t receive anything at first. And then a lot of us received such a small amount, there wasn’t enough money to move anyplace. Of course, your neighboring towns set up their prices—Yakima and Sunnyside, Grandview—all of them, because real estate started going sky-high then. And there wasn’t enough money to purchase anything come near anything like you had in Hanford or White Bluffs. A lot of people just had to leave, and if they didn’t have a truck, I know a lot of our farm machinery was just left on our place. Because there wasn’t any place to take it. But I think by my father and I working and staying for another year, that transition period was easier for us. Because we had gotten into the work pattern there. We were just patriotic enough that we anxious to do anything to help win the war, and to end the war.</p> <p>Greger: Were you able to live in your own home?</p> <p>Heriford: We lived in our own home for just a little over a year. So that helped a great deal. And a few families were able to do that. The homes in town, like my grandmother’s house—she had long since passed away, but—her house was torn down. I rode horseback into town and saw the house. They were picking it up with a scoop—whatever the equipment they had—and that was quite a shock, too. But as I say, once we got into the job and we were so busy, and then I was anxious to see what was going on. The first job I had was blueprints. So I did cover the Areas. And that’s where I became acquainted with the different—the B Area, the D Area, the F Area. But of course at that time, B Area had no significance to me, no more than any of the other areas. During the time that I worked in blueprint, there was a lot of excavation, the reinforcing bar was put in. They were getting ready to pour concrete. But before there was much construction done, actual building there, I had transferred to youth activities and became a youth director, which was an exciting job. I enjoyed it.</p> <p>Putnam: That was during the construction period? So there were a lot of activities, community activities for—were these the kids of workers and things like that?</p> <p>Heriford: Yes.</p> <p>Putnam: Tell us a little bit about. I never heard about that.</p> <p>Heriford: Well, we had 50,000 people come in in what seemed like overnight. I started to work in June, but I had been there from the very conception of the whole Project, as far as we knew about it. They came in in March, and as I said, I watched some of the residential area just being completely cleared. It remained the same out where I lived. But the rest of the town was just being razed and erased, so to speak. The Administration Building was built that housed all the DuPont workers. We had recreation for all of the children. They had a wonderful program for them, and later on, in 1944, they had a manmade lake. I used to swim in the river when I got off work every night, but I guess they felt that they needed something that would be safer for the youth. So they built a manmade lake—built a lake directly south of the village. And I taught swimming there. They had a marvelous program. They had diving, swimming meets there. We taught all kinds of sports. Money was no object. We had bingo parties for the children. We had a youth center for them; it was manned every day of the week that I can remember. I don’t know about Sunday—I won’t say for that—well, I think so. I had Monday off, so it was probably manned during the week. But I know it was six days a week.</p> <p>Greger: In that kind of community, were—there must have been an awful lot of curiosity about what the big project was. Did you hear much talk about this? Any speculation?</p> <p>Heriford: No, it’s amazing. I’ll have to say that DuPont had the best safety program I’ve ever seen and they also had the best security that I have ever seen. Of course, it was during that era, and it was the war effort. So I really can’t compare it, because that’s the only one war effort project I have worked on. But I don’t ever remember discussing it with my friends. Because we knew it depended on security, the successfulness of it. And when I look back, I am amazed at that, that people really didn’t discuss it. We wanted to contribute everything we could to this effort. Because it was a serious war at that time. When they came in 1943 and all they told us—it was needed for war effort. And believe me, that’s all I knew until the day that they dropped the bomb.</p> <p>Greger: What was your reaction then, on learning this? What circumstances did you learn it?</p> <p>Heriford: When they dropped the bomb?</p> <p>Greger: Mm-hmm.</p> <p>Heriford: I was over in Yakima. We were over in the Wenas country visiting people that formerly lived in Richland. They have Snively Road and Snively Canyon. These were named for our friends, Harry Snively. And they owned a great deal of land at one time on Rattlesnake Mountain and all that land around by Horn Rapids area. So the government asked him if he wanted to sell part of it, or all of it. He said if you’re going to take it, take it all. And then I think he was sorry afterwards. But anyway, we had gone over to visit them, and listening to the news—it was Gabriel Heatter in those days. Very dramatic. When he said that they had dropped a bomb, I still didn’t get the full impact of an atomic bomb. I knew what an atom was, but still—you just didn’t picture an atomic bomb—or conceive of it in your mind. At least I didn’t. And then of course that was on Hiroshima. Then later, the Nagasaki one. When the war was ended, I was living in Richland. That’s when I felt—that was a day of celebration to us, because we had lost a lot of fellas—per capita, we lost a great number of fellas in our communities. And I should say when I heard about the other, in Yakima, my parents had moved to Richland by that time. So that’s where I was living.</p> <p>Greger: What went on in this celebration that you mentioned?</p> <p>Heriford: Here in town?</p> <p>Greger: Mm-hmm, or anywhere.</p> <p>Heriford: It was open house, all up and down the streets. And I remember people putting out washtubs full of beer, Coke, whatever. And people—it was a very friendly community to begin with. But people that perhaps you didn’t know that well, it was like one big family that day. It was an exciting time. We knew that the fellas would be coming home. And I think we felt a little different, too, because having lost our home and gone through that sadness of all that, I think we had a feeling of pride, because we had contributed. We had truly given. By giving up everything we did.</p> <p>Greger: Was there any thought by anybody that you might be able to go back, now that it was over?</p> <p>Heriford: Well, not at that time, because you know they were—well, the war really hadn’t ended as far as getting our troops home and all that. So, no, at that time we didn’t think about it. But later, that’s where I wanted to go, was go back home. In fact, as old as I am, I always say I’d love to go back and have some land there. Live out my years along the river. If they’d allow a few more friends to be there.</p> <p>Putnam: That’s something that’s very nice.</p> <p>Heriford: Maybe I’m not answering—</p> <p>Interviewer: Oh no, you’re marvelous.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh, no, you’re doing beautifully, it’s just—it’s great, it’s really--</p> <p>Heriford: I’m not a good TV—video person.</p> <p>Putnam: Please, no, you’re very good. I’d like to know—</p> <p>Heriford: Because I know you’ll only take a segment of it.</p> <p>Putnam: Well, I’d like to hear a little bit more about—and we’re going to run out of tape in just a little bit. Oh, I better actually change tape. I’d like to hear—[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Heriford: The question, and I’ll just tell a little bit about the towns and taking that into Richland, and—</p> <p>Greger: Okay. Okay.</p> <p>Heriford: Well, Hanford and White Bluffs actually were two great rivals back in days that I remember and all during my school days. We were seven-and-a-half miles apart. Sports were vital in both schools. We didn’t have TV and we didn’t have everything that’s going on. Sports are still important in the schools, I know, today, but with us, it was our main activity during school time. So we had such rivalry that until the time our school burned down and we had to go to school in White Bluffs—that was 1937. We always blamed it on White Bluffs, that they burned our school down. Later, theirs burned down and they blamed it on us as retaliation. But of course, we joked a lot about it, but I think some people might have believed it, too. After we went to school and became integrated, we really built up quite a bond of friendship there. We loved it. But as far as activities and outside activities, going to other towns, we crossed the ferry at White Bluffs or at Hanford. I know in Hanford, we crossed the ferry, and went downriver for a ways, and then you went up a little winding road through the bluffs, and we drove right from there to Lind, Washington, and then on to Spokane. So that was our highway in those days. So going to Spokane was a big treat. We had our Senior Sneak up there—our 1938 class. But heading—and Pasco was another place to go, because we could get in the theater with our student body pass for $0.16. Go to the M and M café, I think it was—Chinese café afterwards. No one had much money—you have to realize this was during the Depression years, and money was scarce. But we had—everybody was creative and ingenious, I think, when it came to just having fun. On the way to Pasco, we came through Richland. In the early days, you came—we left Hanford and you went straight to Horn Rapids. That’s where the Wanapum Indians used to do their fishing, and they would camp there. That was one of the places, I should say, that they did their fishing. They built scaffolds, just like you see nowadays. But then the road wound around by the Snively place. We went over one little bridge and it would wind back and forth over another little bridge. We came out—what is now known as West Richland—came over the twin bridges, there. From West Richland, came into town, via Van Giesen. The Grange Hall was where the Lutheran church is now, and into town. So we went through Richland, but our main purpose at that time was to get to Pasco and Kennewick. Kennewick used to have a lot of parades. They had rodeos. Just getting out of our two small towns, any town that was bigger was quite a treat. So was Richland, I know a lot of the boys probably went to Richland, dated some of the girls there. But we did have sports with Richland. They had a good basketball team. In fact, one of my best friends went to—they had to move; they had a dairy farm. And she went to school in Richland. She said she’d beat us. We’re still arguing about that. [LAUGHTER] But all of the towns played an important part in our lives. Of course, we had the friends, the Snivelys, so we did come to Richland every so often.</p> <p>Putnam: It was a very productive agricultural area, wasn’t it?</p> <p>Heriford: Richland was a beautiful community, really. A lot of real nice farms. I don’t think people realize that, just how far the farms extended. They were clear out to—well, just south of where your 300 Area is now.</p> <p>Putnam: Some of the literature, the old literature I’ve seen, this was sales literature that talked about the long season and the early crops. Was this in fact a competitive factor in fruit growing?</p> <p>Heriford: Yes, very competitive. Because we were two weeks ahead of the rest of the market. And I have newspaper clippings where our fruit went to New York and was so well-received, it was shipped abroad, shipped to the Orient. It was predominantly apples. We had quite a few people who raised soft fruit like peaches, apricots. But I think the main crop was apples, because when you start sending soft fruit—in those days, especially—it would never have lasted that great a distance, with the containers—the shipping that we had at that time. In the early days, I have to mention about the sternwheelers. That’s how fruit was hauled. It was taken down to Pasco, Kennewick, probably, and then it was shipped by rail. Because the railway didn’t come into Hanford until about 1913—I think it started around 1912 up in White Bluffs. Then they put in the cold storage plant in White Bluffs. So that’s where they got their ice and shipped the cars from. We used to all pack fruit during the summer to earn money to go to college, or just to earn money for expenses when you were in high school.</p> <p>Putnam: Did you have electricity, for example, in Hanford and White Bluffs?</p> <p>Heriford: We did, we had electricity, we had cold running water, and your bath facilities were outside. I mean, your outdoor bathroom—outhouses, as they called them in those days. I remember visiting friends and staying all night, and several of them used lamplight to study by. So I thought, well, we were really fortunate to have electricity. But yet it was exciting to go to somebody else’s house, where they did use the lamps—oil lamps, kerosene lamps.</p> <p>Putnam: I grew up in rural Missouri, born in 1945—in town, but I used to visit friends out—they didn’t have electricity sometimes. So it’s not so unusual, really, that—we forget how long ago that was—or what a short time—how far we’ve come in that length of time, how much we take for granted.</p> <p>Greger: [UNKNOWN] One area I wonder if you’d like to comment on: it seems to me that you were in a unique position in that you got the job. I was wondering, what is there to say about the period when everyone else moved out because of the notice, and then what happened? What was the sequence of this whole thing moving in there? Could you kind of describe that period?</p> <p>Heriford: Well, to say the least—</p> <p>Greger: What did you see?</p> <p>Heriford: To say the least, I was overwhelmed. Because I went to town quite often. I wanted to see—I lived out three-and-a-half miles. I wanted to see what was going on. And to begin with, they were all men, construction workers, and it wasn’t exactly a safe place for a 22-year-old girl at that time, or at least you didn’t feel safe. They did start up where they had dances right away, and I loved to dance. As time went on, we used to dance about five nights a week. So once it happened, every night was a Saturday night, I think. They had a lot of activity. They built the recreation hall that we had. They used three shifts round the clock, and as I remember it, it was eleven days. I’ve heard other numbers, but I remember them saying eleven days at the time. This was where we played city basketball. They had prize fights, we had dances, we had big name orchestras—Kay Kyser of course was one of them. Just lots of activity coming in there. We had <em>Truth or Consequences</em> program, which I got involved in. I worked in youth recreation, and so I attended all of the functions at that recreation hall, if youth were involved at all. Because our main director of the recreation program insisted that we be there to see that everything was quiet and also safe. Something I’d like to get into, which I didn’t—when the government came in, you have to realize that we had gone through a period of Depression, after the big crash of ’29. I have the books that my father—they kept track, and the receipts and all. In fact, it used to be that we went to California before this crash. And then during the harvest time, or it was time to prune, why, we would come back. Dad worked for the oil—Union Oil Company, I think, down there. But then as the Depression set in, of course, we didn’t travel anymore. That was the end of that. But the farmers had to get loans, not because they didn’t have good crops; there wasn’t a market. An apple still cost $0.16 on the train I rode in 1936. I went back to Pittsburgh and Cleveland and I couldn’t get over the price to think that one apple cost $0.15 when the farmers didn’t sometimes reap that much out of the box after they paid the fruit companies. Everything had to be done as to processing—processing the fruit. And the grower ended up without anything. But I know my parents would get a loan, and they had to pay the help, the pruning, the picking, everything. So it was quite a period in time that was a struggle for all of the farmers. And the fruit growers. So when the government came in, they just—they were thinking about these times and perhaps the land wasn’t worth anything. That was beautiful land. And you could go out there now, in one year’s time everything would be green and start producing. You go to Desert Air now and look at the orchards. But we had a marvelous location. We were protected, I think, a lot from the cold that they might have farther south. They speak of the 200 Areas, now, I think when they take the temperature or wherever it is, at 622. Well, they didn’t—we never had that cold of weather. We didn’t have very little rain fall, so we depended on irrigation. We had a wonderful well, so that helped us.</p> <p>Greger: Back to the official notice, one other account I’ve read said that some of the people first clue was a notice in a Spokane paper, of a declaration of the taking, I think they called it. Did you hear anything before the official notice out there that was significant?</p> <p>Heriford: No, I didn’t—I don’t remember at that time reading anything. As I say, when you’re in shock, sometimes you forget some things.</p> <p>Greger: What form did that notice come in?</p> <p>Heriford: Well, I thought we received a letter, because I have some of the information as to the price. Like they offered us $1,700 for our 30 acres and our home and our well and everything. And the well cost $1,900 to bring in the line and then the motor. I have the papers from the motor. When you see all this, you—I think I became quite ill at the time. I just couldn’t accept it. It seemed so unfair. There was no justice as to the price. But then after we—as time wore on, and we were working, I went to work in June—not until June. But I’m at a loss for words there. Truly.</p> <p>Greger: Did the fact that you were a native there make any significant difference in your work as to relationships or any—</p> <p>Heriford: Oh, no. I’ve often thought about that. But I was Q cleared, and I delivered blueprints and took care of the classified material. We didn’t have a shredder in those days. It went down to the dump grounds. They had a steel cage, everything had to be burned. I had to shake the ashes, make sure that all of it was burned. That was part of my job working in the blueprint. I was cleared, because when I delivered blueprints, and they said, why do you want to do this, if you’ve had college training? Why don’t you be a secretary? And I said, well, first of all, this pays more than being a secretary. And second, which I’ve told this so many times, but it’s true—I wanted to see what they were doing to my land. Driving there every day and I still didn’t know what they were doing except tearing it all up. And huge building foundations.</p> <p>Greger: What actually happened with the land that belonged to your place? What happened?</p> <p>Heriford: Our home, evidently, was left there. And not taken, probably, until the ‘50s. And it was moved to West Richland—no, to Benton City, along the river. But I could never locate it. They kept telling me it was along the river. The Webbers had moved it. They got a contract and did quite a bit of the moving of the homes. Some of the homes were just torn down. But the big screen porch was taken off, the shutters were gone, the roof had changed, and it wasn’t until about three or four years ago that I recognized my house by my bedroom window, after it was shown where it was. But they tore up our orchard, and the trees are still laying there. So I like to go out in the spring, walk around. The spray pipe--we had stationary spray pipe—to begin with, people had a sprayer that was drawn by horses, mules, and you went up and down the orchard. That’s how they sprayed. And when it was empty, why, you had to fill it up with the spray and the water again. But then when we had the stationary sprayer, my dad had overhead spray pipe into the area, and faucets then where he could hook into any one of those pipes and spray, which made it a lot easier. Then they pulled some of the trees, too, in the late ‘30s, because he kept all of the Extra Fancy Delicious. And our cherry trees, the orchard was bordered by cherry trees on the north and south ends. But I like to go out and see the remains even yet.</p> <p>Greger: Was nothing physically built on your—</p> <p>Heriford: Oh, no, there isn’t anything. Nothing. I see what you mean now. No, there wasn’t anything built out there. So it’s easy for me to go right out to my place. None of that area. It was all on the other side of Gable Mountain.</p> <p>Greger: You might comment again about the relations with the Wanapums. Just a little bit more, if there’s more to say.</p> <p>Heriford: Oh.</p> <p>Greger: You knew about—well, you knew where the villages were, of course—the main one up by Priest Rapids.</p> <p>Heriford: Yes, now we had several people who actually visited move to Priest Rapids. The Webbers—Russell and Dorothy Webber moved up there. So they knew Puck Hyah Toot, or Johnny Buck as we called him, and they knew quite a few of the Indians. Dorothy Webber was telling me just this last week, she said, one of the ladies would just come up and open the door and walk in. They felt free to do whatever they wanted. People always had good remarks. I mean, they felt kindly toward the Wanapum Indians. And Mr. Reierson who owned the trading store in White Bluffs said that Johnny Buck would come in, want to know what bills his people owed, and he would pay up. He really admired Johnny. Joe Brill was our bus driver. He owned the airplane. We had an airstrip between Hanford and White Bluffs. And I forgot to mention, we also had what they called the in-between area, and that’s where I lived. If you lived out three miles out from town, I think you were in the in-between area. So when they wrote in the newspaper, it would always be In-Between News, Hanford News, and White Bluffs. But we had a newspaper, and if anybody made a trip to Yakima, they motored to Yakima, or they motored to Pasco, that was big news. Specially in the early days, when they had a car with a motor in, that was news. When the touring cars came into town. Because some of our early pictures show the hitching posts in front of the stores. I have a lot of those pictures in the 1920s and earlier. That was something that—I don’t know what happened. I know with security in town, when they came into our area, we weren’t allowed to take pictures. But I think we still could have taken pictures prior to the time that was really taken over. I’m just lucky that my friend and I took a lot of pictures. I think we must have had a premonition, because we had little Brownie cameras and we took pictures of everyone and everything. Her pictures burned up, but I still had mine. So we still have quite a few.</p> <p>Interview Two: Okay well—</p> <p>Heriford: It’s blinking, is that--?</p> <p>Putnam: It’s almost to the end of the tape.</p> <p>Heriford: Well, I just talk so much. I shouldn’t talk so much.</p> <p>Putnam: Oh, no, that’s exactly what we want. It’s just—</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:32:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 224kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Annette Heriford Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Annette Heriford conducted by Bill Putnam for the B Reactor Museum Association. Heriford is a displaced resident of the Hanford-White Bluffs area Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/15/1991 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Don Lewis Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <p>Interviewer: --just telling us your name and what your position was during construction, or how you—what your job was. And then tell us how you were recruited. And as—[VIDEO CUTS] If you can, it helps us a lot.</p> <p>Don Lewis: Sure.</p> <p>Interviewer: Okay, just a second. Okay. Go ahead.</p> <p>Lewis: My name is Don Lewis. I was a shift supervisor at the B Reactor startup in September of 1944. How I got here was I was an employee of the DuPont Company. Joined them at Carneys Point, New Jersey, in the smokeless powder plant they had there. And was in training for their military explosives program, and went to Charlestown, Indiana, where I was a control chemist in the laboratories there. Eventually worked into being a line supervisor in the acid and organics part of the plant. During that time, one day I was called into my superintendent’s office, and he indicated to me that he had another assignment for me. He didn’t know exactly what it was, but he sent me to the service superintendent of the plant’s office. I was told that I was going to the TNX project. This was supposedly a super-secret project that we’d heard about but didn’t know anything about. And even the superintendent didn’t know anything about it. But all he told me was that they had train tickets and reservations for me to go to Knoxville, Tennessee from Charlestown, Indiana where I was working. And I went within two days of getting the word. We went, and we were to report to a certain address in Knoxville, which we did. It was just a nondescript storefront. But inside were very many people like myself, plus all kinds of secretaries. We started in filling out forms, and signing our life away, and identifying ourselves. After we got through that for about three hours, why, they loaded us into what was known as a stretch-out in those days. It was sort of a large sedan made into a bus with an elongated body. And took us out to what they called Clinton Laboratories outside of Knoxville, out in the hills out there, and said this is where we would be working. We stayed in the hotel in Knoxville for a couple days until they had accommodations for us out at the Clinton Laboratories site. It was the Oak Ridge site as they call it; it was built around the town of Oak Ridge, Tennessee. So we were moved into dormitories and began our training there. We were told that we were in training for a production plant out in the state of Washington. We heard several names—we heard Pasco, we heard Kennewick, we heard Hanford, and we didn’t know what they all meant at the time. But we stayed there in Oak Ridge at the Clinton Laboratories in training to operate an atomic pile. After our clearances went through, why, they revealed to us what we were doing—the kind of work we were in. It was considered to be extra hazardous work, because of the unknown nature of it. But most of us were not too concerned about the hazards involved, because of our association with the DuPont Company. DuPont has an excellent safety record and excellent safety philosophy, and having worked in a dangerous chemical and smokeless powder manufacturer, why, we were all used to that type of thing. We stayed at Oak Ridge, at Clinton Laboratories, learning how to operate the X-10 Reactor, which was the second reactor made. The first one, of course, being the Chicago Pile—reactors were called piles in those days. About three months later, we came out here. I got here on May the 11^th of 1944 and got set up in a dormitory room, and was immediately assigned to the 300 Area as part of the operating crew for the Hanford Test Reactor, or the Hanford Pile. This was a pile that tested uranium fuel elements and mostly graphite that was being machined to be used in the construction of the B, D, and F Reactors. From May the 11^th until July the 5^th, I worked down there, and then I was transferred out to the B Reactor site, which was under construction at that time. While out there, we were schooled in the operation of the plant—the pile itself. We followed construction and tried to learn about this strange new industry that we were associated with. When we came out, we were told that we could expect to be assigned out here for about two years. Then they felt that the war would be over within the next two years, if our venture was successful.</p> <p>Interviewer: And at that point, did you know—you then did know that it was nuclear-related or atomic-related?</p> <p>Lewis: Yes, yes. During the time we were at Oak Ridge, we had quite a few people come in and talk to us, especially—the most memorable man I recall was Dr. Paul Gast, who was one of the pioneers in nuclear physicists. He was also much more practical and could speak our language. We learned an awful lot from his lectures about it.</p> <p>Interviewer: How much was known about atomic energy at that time?</p> <p>Lewis: Oh, quite a bit. I was amazed at what they did know, because when I went to school—I was a major in chemistry—and all we knew was that there was uranium and thorium and radium, and they disintegrated in a series of radioactive elements by radioactive decay. That’s all we ever spent with radioactive elements in school.</p> <p>Greg: Can I ask a question?</p> <p>Interviewer: Sure.</p> <p>Greg: You mentioned you knew of—</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Interviewer: Okay, go ahead answer.</p> <p>Lewis: All of us that were associated with the reactor—with the piles themselves—knew. The top management of the other areas, like the water plant, the maintenance, knew. But it was sort of a need-to-know basis. So the people that ran the power facilities, the water plant facilities, the maintenance facilities, they didn’t have to know about what we were doing. As the plant got built and started to operate, then you had to bring the maintenance people in and they were schooled on what it was. Except—the only thing a lot of people were told was they were dealing with radioactivity. It was what they call a hazard disclosure that they gave everybody. But that didn’t come until later. But those of us who were trained at Oak Ridge to be operators of the reactors and the separations plant and the fuel fabrication facilities and the radiation protection, or health instruments people, were all in the know on what it was. But we had two operators on our shift when we started at B Reactor. They didn’t know anything. We didn’t tell them anything, but they were able to work, and later on, they found out what it was about.</p> <p>Interviewer: I’d like to know a little more about DuPont—I mean, I think that one of the points that’s certainly been made is that DuPont’s expertise and ability as a company—the management techniques and all—was absolutely critical, and as an extension of that, the ability and capacity of American industry as a whole was very important. Can you tell me a little bit about that?</p> <p>Lewis: Yes, yes. In retrospect, after I’d been in the reactor business for a couple of years, I was amazed at the foresight that the DuPont Company showed in their design of these plants. There wasn’t a thing that they put in that we didn’t have a use for. They just thought of every contingency. For instance, in 1948, we started to get fuel elements that stuck in the process tubes of the reactors. And lo and behold in the warehouses, DuPont had a whole set of tools for extracting stuck fuel elements from the reactor. I guess the most famous thing about DuPont is the fact that the reactor was supposed to operate with 1,500 tubes. And one of the engineers with DuPont said we’d better prepare for a contingency. And they designed it with 2,004 tubes. As it turned out, because of the xenon poisoning problem during operation, why, the 2,004 tubes were utilized, were required. Of course, DuPont they assigned their—</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> <p>Lewis: And of course this is hearsay from me, because I don’t know firsthand, but they told us that Oak Ridge, when we were in training, that these were the latest prints they had. But when we got out there to Hanford, there’s no telling what it would look like, because the design was holding everything up. Getting the design complete—and really the construction people were really pushing the designers. It was that close.</p> <p>Interviewer: Because they were waiting for the blueprints to work, huh?</p> <p>Lewis: That’s right. What I was going to tell you was—the summer or ’44, during the completion of the B Reactor construction, we had seminars and training sessions a couple times a day in the office building over there. We had the chief design engineers for each of the components of the reactor come out and talk to us. They gave us the detail and the background on their design criteria that they had to work with, and how they went about designing their equipment. For instance, the guy that designed the control rods and the safety rods was out here. It was really a liberal education for me that summer, to hear these guys talk, because I learned more about mechanical equipment design from them. The fellow that designed the charging and discharging equipment was out there. As a matter of fact, when we first discharged fuel, he was out there, to watch it work. As turned out, his design—it was a perfect engineering design based on what he was told, what his criteria were. But the things that they told him were so conservative, that it was almost—it wasn’t impractical, but it was very slow. We eventually threw out most of that very conservative design and went to—we had our own people design our own fuel handling equipment.</p> <p>Interview: Logistically, what was involved in the Project? I mean, I know that most people around here worked here know about what went on. As someone from the outside, not having much of a physics background at all, I know almost nothing about—well, I’m underselling that. I know something. But a lot of people know almost nothing about what is involved. In the pile some graphite locks together, and put in some uranium and then pull the rods out and there you go. Logistically, what was involved? What had to be done to begin to—there’s the magnitude of the scale, just from the very small pile coming up. But what kind of industrial capacity was necessary? What types of the graphite? Graphite machining, the aluminum, all that—what was involved in the—</p> <p>Lewis: Okay. Well, nothing in the form of great quantities of uranium had even been mined. Then the refining of the uranium and then learning how to machine and work with the uranium to make the fuel elements—there was a lot of engineering development had to take place there. The graphite, also—what, 250,000 tons of graphite or—I don’t know what the—the magnitude of the graphite problem was terrific. And the design of the graphite moderator in these blocks about four inches square and about four feet long. And the drilling of the holes in the graphite, the sizing of the graphite. Graphite was very soft, easily—pieces were easily chipped off of it, and it had to be very carefully handled. The people that worked with the graphite, their sweat had to be kept out of the graphite. The graphite itself had to be extremely pure. It was purer graphite than had ever been made before. The development in this short period of time was astronomical. I know the graphite in the B Reactor was not as high quality as the graphite in the D Reactor, which was not as high quality as the graphite that was used eventually in the F Reactor. And they came online within six months of each other. But the techniques were evolving that rapidly. The cleanliness and the precision with which the graphite was laid was absolutely outstanding in my book. They used surveyors’ instruments with very great precision. They put a layer of graphite in and it had to meet certain tolerances, within several mils, I think, of perfection. And then they’d bring another layer of graphite in and do the same thing. When they ended up with that stack almost 40 feet high, there was less than a quarter of an inch difference, I think, from perfection, from being absolutely perfect.</p> <p>Interviewer: How about aluminum?</p> <p>Lewis: The aluminum also had to be extremely high purity, because of the different elements that are normally found in industrial products. Even minute traces of them in a reactor would poison down the reactor and make it inoperable. They learned how to purify the aluminum and also to extrude the tubes. They had several different tube designs, and they ended up with a two-S aluminum tube as the best—</p> <p>Interviewer: So with the welding and the whole—it was an enormous variety of skills and technology.</p> <p>Lewis: Well, not only that but radiation shielding, too. Of course they knew that concrete was a good radiation shield. But I thought it was rather ingenious—they made the outside biological shields of the first reactors with laminated slabs of iron and Masonite of all things. Masonite with a high hydrogen content and would help moderate neutrons. So with enough iron and Masonite, why, they could capture all of the neutrons and the gamma rays of high intensity that were generated within the reactor.</p> <p>Greg: I think it might be of interest if you could briefly mention how the uranium got here, what was done to encapsulate it, and how it got out to the plant and then into the reactor. And then what happened?</p> <p>Lewis: Okay.</p> <p>Camera man: But before that, if you could maybe sit up a little, again—you’re starting to lean back a little and I get a flash—</p> <p>Lewis: I’m relaxed!</p> <p>Camera man: I know, that’s good, but I get a flash in your eyes, the reflection I’m getting. Okay.</p> <p>Lewis: As far as I know, the uranium came out in billets from wherever it was made back east, I think around in Ohio someplace. And the billets were then extruded into rods. And the rods were then machined into individual—machined to the tolerance for fuel pieces, and then the rods were cut up into individual fuel pieces. All these, of course, were very precisely dimensioned, and checked, and cleanliness was of paramount importance. And then they had to can these fuel pieces, which were a little over eight inches long, a little over eight inches in diameter, inside an aluminum can. And because of the heat generation that would take place in the reactor, the aluminum can had to be metallurgically bonded to the surface of the uranium slug, so that you’d get good heat transfer through the metal into the cooling water which ran outside. The reason for the can was that uranium and water reacted at high temperatures under radiation. The uranium would hydride very rapidly, and the fuel piece would be destroyed. So the can was put on to protect—to shield the uranium from the water. Also, you had aluminum, water, aluminum and no electrolytic couples there that you might have with aluminum and bare uranium.</p> <p>Interviewer: Had any of this ever been done before?</p> <p>Lewis: No.</p> <p>Interviewer: Was this all new technology?</p> <p>Lewis: As a matter of fact in Chicago—where they made it, I don’t know—but part of the summer, we spent testing fuel elements that they had made in Chicago that were un-bonded. They were just a canned element. They were going to be used in case they couldn’t get the bonded fuel element development in time. Because they weren’t going to hold up the startup of that reactor. That was the hardest job we had that summer, was spending numerous hours autoclaving at a high pressure, in a high pressure autoclave—no temperature, but with high-pressure helium, to check these fuel elements for any pinholes they might have in them. And then we’d put them in—one at a time, we’d put the fuel elements, after they’d been for 48 hours under high helium pressure, in a vacuum mass spectrograph, and we would draw a vacuum on them and see if we could detect any helium, which would mean that there was a leak in the can.</p> <p>Interviewer: So overall based on the—</p> <p>Lewis: So they were going to use them in case the development of the bonded fuel element in the 300 Area didn’t pan out. But the bonded fuel element did get—I guess—the first good fuel piece they ever made down there didn’t occur until after the 4^th of July, 1944. Rumor has it that a slug—that a shift came in after a long change, all hung over, and in very surly shape, and they got in there and all of a sudden, it was like the dam broke. They started turning out good fuel pieces. [LAUGHTER] They caught on to it I guess. But there was a lot of trial and error in that, that summer down there, with the fuel. But once they got it down, it was all right.</p> <p>Greg: What was the sequence of events that led right up to the startup, as far as loading and all these kinds of preparations?</p> <p>Lewis: Well, we kicked the construction people out of the reactor after they had essentially finished everything. We ran the rods, we exercised everything, and the reactor was going to start up dry, so we didn’t have our water system pumping water into the reactor. What they were doing over on the water side, I don’t know. But we checked all of the equipment out in the reactor that we could, and exercised everything, found out where all of the glitches were. And then we had the construction people come back in and finish up all of our punch list items. And then they went out for good. In the meantime, we were beginning to get the fuel out from the 300 Area in big truckloads. We’d get a truck, two trucks a day, I think it was for a while. There we did a lot of hard work, too—handling those fuel elements. There were six elements in a box and they all came in a nice little wooden box to protect them from being scratched or damaged. We got them, we laid them all out, we inspected every fuel element, and eventually we laid them all out on the work area floor in front of the charging face. The first thing that was done was Fermi and some of the other people inserted the first fuel elements inside the reactor. And also there were some special irradiations that went into the reactor, too, first. Then they turned it loose to us and we started loading fuel. They had all of the rods out of the reactor. They had the safety circuits all made up. And as we loaded fuel, they had proportional counter—sort of like a stethoscope—inside the reactor that was indicating the buildup of radioactivity in the reactor. There were a lot of bets on how many tubes it was going to take to bring the reactor critical, and also who—which shift was going to be on when it became critical. It was very frustrating for us operators, because we were really, really loading that fuel as fast as we could. But then the physicists would stop us, and they would run some tests to determine how close they were to critical. So we kind of bootstrapped our way up, and the closer we got to critical, the slower the process of loading tubes was. And it got so we were loading one tube at a time. I was on a four to twelve shift, and I thought that night we were going to make it. But we didn’t, and it was awful close. So we were invited to stay over after our shift was finished, and—I don’t know, 2:00 in the morning or something, it did become critical. So we were there for the dry criticality event.</p> <p>Greg: What was the indication, and how many tubes were loaded at that point?</p> <p>Lewis: Well, there was 300 and some tubes, I think. And the indication was on the proportional counter that—every time you load a tube, the proportional counter level of radiation would go up, would increase in intensity. After a while, it would level off. When it didn’t level off anymore is when you had your chain reaction without loading any more fuel. You usually had to wait about ten or 15 minutes before the leveling off process would take place. Then you’d load another tube and you’d wait another ten or 15 minutes. But finally, when it did go, it was pretty obvious. And we had everything set on the safety circuits. And so when the rising level of radioactivity showed that there was a chain reaction in place, when it got up to a certain level, then it automatically tripped the safety circuits and the rods went in to shut it down. Then they pulled them out again and checked it again and did a lot of folderol like that. The next thing was to put water on the reactor. That drove it subcritical again because the water was a poison. We had to get the water system all operable and going smoothly. And then we started to load the fuel, same way again, only with water on the reactor, and using our charging equipment as it was designed to use. Same thing took place. And of course this was history, because a water-cooled reactor never had existed before. And so the closer we got to critical there, why, the more people showed up. And of course, Dr. Fermi was there and Dr. Compton—Arthur Compton from Chicago Met Lab. All those people were there, many of which I didn’t even know who they were, but I knew who Fermi was and I knew who Compton was.</p> <p>Interviewer: When it happened, was there a sense that this was a historic moment?</p> <p>Lewis: Yeah, that’s when Fermi made his remark, a child is born.</p> <p>Greg: Was there a figure on that initial dry startup as to what kind of level it would reach? Very low, but was there a figure tossed around there?</p> <p>Lewis: Oh, milliwatts. Milliwatts, yeah. And the same thing happened with the wet reactor. And then there were a lot of physics tests. Then they’d load more fuel, and finally they loaded it up to the 1,500 tubes that they had agreed was where it should be. A lot more testing. And then finally they pulled the rods to start their—what they called the power ascension program. And heretofore, we’d only been up in the milliwatts range or watt range, perhaps. But now we were on our way up to the megawatt range. And when they got to eight megawatts—and they were going up in—bootstrapping their way up. When they got up there, to eight, I think it was around eight megawatts, why, they leveled off and the rods kept coming out—</p> <p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Don Lewis Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Atomic Products Operation B Reactor National Historic Landmark (Wash.) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Don Lewis for the B Reactor Museum Association. Lewis was a Process Supervisor at the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Reactor Museum Association Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/14/1991 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project. Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-4B