60 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcdcf48bf96c34a76552480aee244f89b.JPG 6a7419488f76a1d3bbfc9a8c7fd15bcb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F97397042f47cc130681ecc409d66e9ea.mp4 fe7a6e3d08e2d3da7a6602b0a2e3a7b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Donald Bell, Sr. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Donald Bell, Senior on April 4, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking to Donald about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Donald Bell, Senior: Donald Bell, Senior. D-O-N-A-L-D, B-E-L-L, S-R. Franklin: Great, thanks Donald. So, where did your parents move to the area from? Bell: My parents moved to the area probably form Mississippi. Franklin: Okay. Why? Bell: Well, they grew up in Mississippi. My mom was born in ‘33. Just hard times in Mississippi. I think when most males got a chance or got old enough to get out of Mississippi, they got out. So whether it was the military, or finding a job somewhere, just getting away. Franklin: Yeah. When did they come to the Hanford area? Bell: I’m thinking that my dad came here in the ‘50s, I’m thinking. Franklin: Okay. Bell: And my mom, probably a little bit later. She followed her brothers out here. Franklin: Were your parents married before they moved to the area or did they meet here? Bell: No, they weren’t married before they moved here. Franklin: Did they know each other before? Bell: No, I think just living in Pasco is how they met. They were from two different parts from Mississippi. I think my uncles ended up knowing my dad and his brother, you know those two brothers met these two brothers type deal, so I think that’s how. Franklin: Okay. What do you know about their lives before they came to the Tri-Cities? Bell: I don’t know a lot, but I’ve been doing, I’ve done a family—I didn’t know a lot about my dad’s family, so I started doing a family tree. Oh, I finished it in 2012, so I probably started by 2010. Just trying to gather—because I didn’t know a lot, so just trying to find cousins and stuff that knew a little bit about where they lived at and how their lives was, basically if they were farmers or share croppers. Franklin: Okay. And what drew your parents to the Tri-Cities area? Bell: I think the work drew them here, just trying to find something better where you could come. It was hard to find a job back in Mississippi for no pay. Here you could actually make money where you could actually take care of your family, so I mean, something that was decent. They weren’t used to making this type of money that they were paying out here. I think that had a lot to do with it. Franklin: You mentioned earlier that your parents had come to the West Coast earlier, right? They-- Bell: Yeah, I think they went to, I think, originally, both of them—both sides of my family on my dad’s side and my mom’s side went to the shipyards in the Oregon/Vancouver area is where it seemed like all of them started there and then they shifted to Washington. Franklin: Okay. Do you know what specifically brought them out here? Was there a specific project, or-- was it Hanford or something--? Bell: I think it was cause of Hanford, because I’m sure that they’d already heard over there being on the shipyards that they were working here, they had dam work started, they had Hanford work, and a lot of those worked out here on these projects. Franklin: What do you know about their initial experience of coming to the Tri-Cities, working at Hanford and finding a place to live initially? Bell: I don’t know a lot, but I’ve heard stories that, like, I know when they came to work here, they had camps out here. So basically they had it set up where the women were in one camp and the men were in one camp. They didn’t let them go together, even though some of those were married, they couldn’t—they had women in one barracks. And I think mainly just Afro Americans that were segregated in that type of environment. But I don’t know a lot about it, just barely hearing little bit and pieces about it when I was growing up. And I confirmed it later on after I got a little bit older. Because I had some of the other people tell me that their parents were married, but they couldn’t stay together. They couldn’t have housing together. They just roomed them like that. Franklin: Okay. Did your parents ever talk about adjusting to the way of life here or their kind of experiences of what was different about this place and Mississippi? Bell: I don’t think they had a big adjustment as far as they were just treated a lot better, so I mean, you would actually be able to be a man and be able to work. I think to me—I’m just thinking at myself being so much younger, but I would think just being able to have the freedom to go out and work and choose what you can do, instead of somebody telling you what you can do or being limited of what you can and can’t do. You can’t buy land, or you can’t do this, or you can’t do that; where they had the freedom to—the doors were open to them a lot more by coming, getting out of the South and coming West. Franklin: What kind of jobs did your father’s—did the men of your father’s family have when they came out here? Bell: They were mainly farmers, sharecroppers. None of them really had—maybe bus driver. Franklin: I mean when they came out here; what kinds of jobs did they-- Bell: Like I said, they worked in the shipyards so I know they welded or learned how to weld. They probably were pretty adept at picking up what to do, so they probably done those little jobs on the shipyards, whether they worked on the ship or whether they was fortunate enough to be able to weld. I know my dad and my uncle both done tack welding and stuff, they had to have learned that somewhere I’m sure they didn’t get that in Mississippi. They didn’t learn it when they were there. Franklin: Did your dad and your uncle both work at Hanford at one point? Bell: Yes, my mom’s two brothers, and my dad, and my uncle worked at Hanford, yeah, at the same time. And they all worked in Portland, so at some point they all must have decided, it’s going to be a little bit better to come over here, and they decided to make their move to come this way. Most of them was here the whole time, never went anywhere else. Franklin: What kinds of jobs did they do out on the Site? Bell: Well, my uncle was a laborer. So most of them—the most money you were making at that time was if you was on the concrete crew. So probably whatever took to get to the concrete crew. They done miscellaneous things; digging ditches, doing whatever. But it seemed like the concrete was—if you could do concrete, any aspect of that concrete, being on that crew was the more money, seemed like. Franklin: Mm. And your father did the same? Bell: My father, my uncle, both my uncles, my dad’s brother and my mom’s brother, both of them. They all just, they done concrete. Franklin: What about your mother? Do you know what she did when she got here? Bell: My mom, when she got here, she worked. She didn’t come until a lot later. But she worked mainly in Pasco; she didn’t work in the Area. She worked in the potato sheds. And she went to CBC, got her degree over there. But she mainly worked at processing plants around here. Franklin: What did she get here degree in? Bell: I just think she took some general—she had eleven kids, so she just wanted to get some type of degree. So I don’t think it was specialized. I don’t know if it was childcare or something. She didn’t get it like in mathematics or accounting or nothing like that. I just think that she wanted to go to school. Franklin: Okay. Well, let’s talk about your experiences. When were you born? Bell: I was born on June 24, 1958. Franklin: Where were you born? Bell: In Pasco. Franklin: In Lourdes? Bell: Lourdes. Franklin: Our Lady of Lourdes. What was the housing like where you lived, where you grew up? Bell: Well, I grew up—we grew up in what they called Navy Homes, which is off of 4th Street between 4th and 1st. It must’ve been a big navy base back there at some point, because that housing was originally the naval base housing. That’s where I grew up. Franklin: What kind of houses were they? Bell: They were more like apartment set up type, but I think it would be a typical military base-type setup where they had long rows of houses that, I don’t know if they were two-bedroom, or one-and-a-half bedroom. I can’t really remember how big they were then, but I noticed everybody stayed in them. And it was probably cheaper to stay there, too. Franklin: Where they in east Pasco or in west Pasco? Bell: No, they were from west Pasco, this side, right next to the tracks. Franklin: Right next to east Pasco. Bell: So basically, right next to—yeah, if you went across the tracks, you were in east Pasco, basically. It’s that side. If you go down Court Street all the way ‘til you have to make that turn, everything on that side--all those things down there. They are a lot better now, that’s Navy Homes, what used to be Navy Homes to us and they still call it Navy Homes. But those aren’t the same houses. They tore those housing down; it’s a lot modernized now. Franklin: Oh, so that’s where, if you go down like you’re going to the railroad station, the Amtrak station. Bell: Mm-hmm. You got to make that turn to get down to that, but that curve and everything to the left used to be the old naval bases. They tore all that down and started building it better now. So it’s a lot better than what it was in the ‘50s, early ‘60s. Franklin: How long did your parents stay there? You said you had a big family. Bell: They weren’t all that big then, but, yeah, we stayed there, probably—we moved to east Pasco, I want to say, moved to east Pasco, maybe ‘65, ‘66, something like that. Franklin: What made your family move over to East Pasco? Bell: I don’t know, maybe wanting to get out of the Navy Homes. At some point, all these families lived in the Navy Homes and they were just trying to get out and form their own style away from Navy Homes, I think. Franklin: Were Navy Homes predominantly African American? Yeah? Bell: Yeah. Franklin: Was there kind of a community in the Navy Homes that you remember? Bell: Yeah, well, it was big enough to be a community. I don’t remember there being a store or nothing inside, but right on the corner of Lewis and 4th Street, you had a stores right there and stuff. Franklin: Mmkay. Where there many families with children or extended families such as grandparents? Bell: Yeah, I didn’t have no grandparents here, but there were families that had grandparents there, too. Franklin: How would you describe life in the Navy Homes in east Pasco? What did you do in your spare time? Bell: We just played, rode our bikes, ventured into—you had a lot of trains coming through there, so you had a lot of transients, so you had to watch out. But we never really worried about much. I guess we never had a real problem, even though we didn’t have a lot. But my mom would always put out stuff for the transient, which they called them hobos back then when we were little. But living that close to the tracks was pretty dangerous, too, though. Like I said, you had trains coming in all the time. I think the train thing was a big deal here, too. Eventually people, they went to Hanford for a little while but if they could work their way in, and some of the families ended up working for the railroad, too, which was another big job in this area, too. Franklin: Did your parents mention the danger of the trains to you or were they worried about-- Bell: Oh yeah. My mom was pretty strict, so, I mean, you had to stay in a certain area. You better not cross that line and get across that fence to get over to the tracks. Yeah, we didn’t get a chance to—Some kids, just like any kids, somebody going to go across that line and try to venture to see if they’re the first or the second people that can get over the tracks and not get in trouble. But so many people would see you, so I don’t know how you really would get away with it. Franklin: Right. Do you remember any particular community events in the African American community in Pasco? Bell: I can’t remember when the first time I saw Juneteenth, but they would always have—and then I didn’t know what Juneteenth—they probably had it then, saying it, but I didn’t really realize what it was. Because so many being from the South, that Juneteenth there was a big thing. But I don’t think it was a big thing for Pasco or for the people that lived in this community, even stretching to Richland, they just didn’t. It was just some from the South and eventually they ended up incorporating that to here. So I remember being at Kurtzman Park, every year there was some type of celebration going on down there. Franklin: That was a pretty important celebration for the black community? Bell: Yes. Franklin: Yeah. Did you attend church? Bell: Yes. Franklin: What church did you attend? Bell: I attended the Church of God. Franklin: Okay. Bell: Which is not there no more, the original one—that’s what I was telling—it’s not there but it used to be off of Wehe. Franklin: Was that in east Pasco? Bell: East Pasco. Franklin: Okay, so your family made the trek over for--? Bell: I don’t think we really started going—I don’t remember going there when I was younger, but I’m sure we probably did. But then after we moved to east Pasco, it was right down the street from where we lived at. Franklin: What role did church play in the community? Bell: I think it kept everybody together and kept them updated on what was happening. Probably was one of the better areas to help people understand and how to get along with what was happening in this area too. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including food, that people brought with them from the places that they migrated from? Bell: I’m thinking, my mom and my aunt did chitlins and they came here, I know they grew their own black eyed peas and okra and stuff. All that stuff came from the South. It’s here now, but I don’t think it was here 70 years ago. I mean, maybe. I take that back. It could’ve been, because some of the Caucasian families are also from the South, from Alabama, or from Texas, or Mississippi, so it could’ve been, but I know that a lot of the families grew their own stuff; they still incorporated some of the stuff probably that they knew from when they were in the South. Franklin: Did you grow up eating what would be called comfort food or soul food? Bell: Yes. Franklin: Yeah. What kinds of meals would your mom make? Bell: My mom would cook collard greens, she’d cook mustard greens, she would cook black eyed peas, okra, a lot of fish, hot water cornbread, which nobody does that anymore. Franklin: What is that? Bell: Basically, its cornmeal that’s made up a little bit thicker. If you’re making cornbread it’ll be kind of runny, you pour it in the pan and then just cook it. But this would be a little thicker and they would pat it up into balls, would be about like that, and they were fried cornmeal, basically, but they called it hot water cornbread. My mom would make the hog’s head and make hog’s head cheese and make different stuff. Sweet potatoes was a big thing. My mom would make sweet potato pie and candied yams. She’s a good cook. Franklin: Wow. Yeah, it sounds like it. Were there any opportunities here that were not available where your parents came from? Bell: I think it was. The biggest thing is education. I mean, it starts with education. Franklin: Yeah. Did your parents talk about that ever? Bell: No, they didn’t really talk about it but when I’d done my research on our family reunion, I was able to realize that where my dad lived at, that school was there from—I mean, everybody went to that school, just one, Marion School. Just basically looked like a school on stilts and it seemed like a hundred years that same school and that’s where all the kids went to school at. Franklin: In Mississippi? Bell: This is was in Columbia Mississippi, Hood Mississippi. Franklin: Yeah. Bell: Just looking at that and then you look at the school—and I talked to some of my cousins that went to school down there and stuff. Just being able to get education was huge. Franklin: What about your own education? Did your parents impress the importance of education on you? Did they talk to you about it? Bell: Oh, yeah. My mom stressed it a lot, because I guess when you’re deprived of something; now, my mom went to school, but some of her brothers never did really get the chance to go because they worked in the field. They didn’t get that opportunity. The more kids you had, that’s more workers you had in the South, so they just didn’t. They was working all the time. They didn’t have time to go to school. Franklin: Do you know what grade levels your parents made it to? Bell: I don’t know about my dad. I don’t think my dad made it through school. But I know my mom, she might have got to high school, I’m not sure. I know she went through junior high; she might have went to high school, I never really got a chance to break that out. But I knew she went to school; I just don’t know how high she went. Franklin: Did they ever talk about the housing that they’d grown up in back in Mississippi and how housing was different here? Bell: No, they didn’t talk about it a lot, but, like I said, once I started researching and going in and looking, I could see that there wasn’t running water in the house, there was outhouses, there weren’t bathrooms in the house. Franklin: Did you or your parents ever go back to visit family in Mississippi? Bell: My mom went. But it’s astonishing how all my family members, everybody’s been in Mississippi. I haven’t been yet. They got a family reunion coming up in August and my sister, my oldest sister is 65. She lives in St. Louis and she wants to go there and my aunt just turned—my mom’s oldest sister that’s living. There was sixteen kids in my mom’s family, so the oldest sister that’s living, she just turned 93. Sunday or Monday. I’m going to surprise her and take her down. Franklin: Oh, she lives here? Bell: No, she lives in St. Louis. Franklin: Oh, in St. Louis. Bell: Yeah, they live in St. Louis. Franklin: Okay, wow, that’s a big family. Bell: All of my siblings have all been to Mississippi. I’m the only one that hasn’t, but-- Franklin: But you’re going? Bell: Yeah, I’ll be going, because I’ve been doing some research stuff. I got all this stuff on paper and pen and put it—made a CD of it, but I haven’t actually been there. So I need to go down there just so I can meet some of those people before they pass away or before I’m not here. But just to say that I did go to where my parents were born and grew up at. Franklin: Yeah, that’s great. Any notable interactions that your parents had with other people from the Tri-Cities area, from Richland or Kennewick? Did your parents go outside of Pasco much? Bell: I think they went outside, but most of their friends, most of them lived here unless they moved into Kennewick or into Richland. There wasn’t a lot of—when I was growing up, I don’t remember a lot of—there was very few black families in Kennewick or in Richland. There were some, but the predominant area was Pasco, was east Pasco. Franklin: What about you, when you were growing up as a kid or young adult, any notable interactions with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Bell: Yeah, I’m a people’s person anyways, so, yeah, I had friends that lived in Richland or from playing ball or in school. Franklin: Okay. Where’d you go to school? Bell: I started out at Captain Gray. Which is--they called it Captain Gray again, but the original place, they took it and made it into a—what do you want to call it?—a kindergarten center. And then Pasco High had all of that for a while and they made a new school, Rowena Chess, which is the old Captain Gray. Then after the high school got back, they turned that back into Captain Gray. So I went to Captain Gray for about a year. The second year, I went to Robert Frost. But Robert Frost didn’t have any black kids going there. At the time we went there, they started a little charter program. So they took four kids: me and my twin brother, and Sandra Allen and her brother. We were the first blacks to go to Robert Frost. Franklin: You were kind of a force of integration. Bell: Yeah, basically. And then the next year, they opened up every class. They brought in sixth graders, fifth graders, fourth graders, all the way down to first grade. But when we came there, we were the first. Franklin: Was there any resistance to your—any uncomfortable moments? Bell: I’m sure, yeah, there were. There were. Franklin: How did segregation or racism affect your education? Bell: It didn’t really affect mine, but I’m sure some Afro American kids, it did. My twin brother was totally different from me. I mean, he’d fight on the drop of a dime if anybody said something to him. You go to a school that is predominantly white, they’re going to test you and see what they can get you to do. My mom basically had to come live at that school pretty much because he was in so much trouble. Wasn’t totally his fault. Where me, I’m a duck. I let stuff—I listened to some of the stuff that my uncles had to go through and I said, this wasn’t nothing, really. I endured, it didn’t bother me. I knew who I was. So I could have gotten into a couple of fights, but I’ll never remember; I just would never let it instigate into fight for words. You had to almost put your hands on me for me to fight you. Franklin: But there was something there? Bell: Oh, yeah. It was something there; it was just how you had to adjust to it. And once they saw that you weren’t going to be rattled by that, I think they started—but then, once they integrated and brought it in, then it seemed like there were more fights then. Because then you got other people that didn’t want to tolerate somebody saying something to them that they didn’t like. Franklin: Right, because maybe they felt that now there were more blacks at the school, that they deserved more—they didn’t deserve that kind of treatment. Bell: The teachers started getting to the point that they had to change the attitude of some of those kids, too. Whether you like it or not, you’re going to have—these kids are going to be in here, and you’re going to have to get along with them. Franklin: What were some of the people that influenced you as a child? This could include family members, friends, teachers…? Bell: As a youngster coming up, I always looked at my uncles, because they were all workers. Maybe not well educated, but they were able to take care of their families. I thought that they’d done pretty well for themselves. Franklin: From working out at Hanford—they were laborers-- Bell: From working out at Hanford and I didn’t even—at the time, I was young, I didn’t even understand that side of it, I looked at my uncles, them going to work. Franklin: Providing for their families. Bell: Providing for their families. That’s what I looked at, I didn’t realize that Hanford was the big influence on it until I got a little bit older. But when I was younger, I idolized my uncles, my mom’s brothers. Franklin: What about when you were going through middle school, high school, I imagine that would’ve been—that’s coming off of a pretty tumultuous time in our nation’s history as far as civil rights were concerned. Where there any notable things that stand out to you, good or bad, from those times, the late ‘60s or early ‘70s? Bell: Well, I don’t remember totally, but I know at one point there was a big, big riot in east Pasco. I don’t remember the year. I know that riot was between the Black Panthers and some of the members that was and the Pasco Police Department. And that was right at Kurtzman Park, was where that riot was at. Franklin: Did the Panthers have an office in Pasco? Bell: I don’t know an office here, but I’m sure some of the guys were part of it. I think that’s what elevated that area. But I don’t know if they actually had an office here or if it was in Seattle or Portland. But I’m sure they had guys come from out of town that were influencers to try to get the black families the protection and the right they needed. Franklin: There were some pretty tumultuous times that—did you go to Pasco High. There were some pretty tumultuous times at Pasco High in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. Were you aware of any of that, or were you aware of that? Bell: I was probably too young. Because I didn’t go to Pasco High my first year. I went to Pasco High, wasn’t until ’76. So it was probably over by then. Franklin: Yeah. Let’s talk about, you graduated in high school and did you go to college? Bell: I didn’t go to college. I had scholarship opportunities, but I went to trade school. Franklin: Right, you mentioned that before we got the interview. Talk about your uncles—you were telling me about how your uncles asked you to be a laborer, but you got the opportunity to be a pipefitter. I’m wondering if you could retell that story. Bell: Okay. Well, most of the males, the black males, were laborers: my twin brother is a laborer, all of my cousins are laborers. So all of them went that route. But when I was in eight grade I already knew I wanted to be a pipefitter then. Franklin: Why? Bell: I’d done some research on it, and it was just something I liked. So when I was in school, I knew I had to know enough math. I liked math anyway, so it would work right into my—I set myself to be a pipefitter, basically. I got out of high school I was an insulator for the summer. Which they paid great. I had a summer job making $1.75 cleaning the marble in the court house. One of the guys, one of the vans that was a pipefitter, he was the one who told me his going to help get in to the Pipefitter’s. But he helped me get as an insulator that summer. Franklin: Out where? Bell: I worked at 100 N. But I went from making $1.75 to making $11.25 an hour. Franklin: Wow, that’s a big, that’s like a tenfold increase. Bell: Within a week we got a $1.25 raise. But that was a good job and they wanted to keep me because they didn’t have many blacks in Insulators’. But I had already had my mind made up to what I wanted to do. They’d tell me they’d give me every opportunity to be an insulator if I would take it. I mean, I was already in. But I wanted to be a pipefitter, so that’s what I wanted to stick with. Franklin: What kind of work, can you describe that job, insulator, what kind-- Bell: They were tearing down stuff and redoing, putting different types of insulation applications on beams and stuff. I think I was nineteen when I was doing that. Franklin: Okay, wow. When did you join the Pipefitters’ or how did that happen? Bell: I joined the Pipefitters’—I got into the Pipefitters’ a year later. And actually I didn’t get in, they took me in as a pre-apprentice. Franklin: What does that mean? Bell: Pipefitters’ is one of the biggest unions around here, and what they wanted to do is stop people that weren’t in the union from touching their pipe. But they didn’t want to take their apprentices to do it. So, I wasn’t apprentice, but I still was in the union. If we’re working on the job and they need to touch the pipe or roll the pipe, they don’t want those guys to roll the pipe or do anything. As a pre-apprentice I could touch the pipes. So if an engineer needed to see the number off the pipe or whatever, I was the one to get that number for them instead. Because they were really strict on possession of touching their pipe or moving their pipe. The union was really huge around here, and Pipefitters’ is one of the strongest unions there was around here, actually, in the whole United States. Franklin: Where did you work as a pipefitter? Bell: As a pipefitter, actually I worked all over the country. But out here, I worked--I started out working, they were building the power plants out there, the WPPSS Plants. I started building them from scratch. Franklin: Wow. 1 and 2? Bell: 2 was already—I worked on 2, too. 2 was the first one, but 1 and 4, those are the three we have out here. 1 and 4, and 2; and 3 and 5 was out by Satsop, by Tacoma. Those are the five nuclear powerhouses. Franklin: You worked on 1 and 4 until the project shut down? Bell: I worked on 1 and 4 until they were just about getting ready to come off the ground, and then I was moved over to number 2 and then I stayed in number 2 until they went online. Franklin: Cool. What kind of on-the-job training did you receive for pipefitting? Bell: Pipefitting, the way it’s set up, you worked on a day, 40 hours, and you had a journeyman showing you what to do. But at night, we went to school at night. Franklin: Okay. Where did you go to school? Bell: Pipefitters are right here, right off the highway, right off of 28th Street. Franklin: What kind of training—like, what kind of school was it? Could you describe that? Bell: It was top-of-the-line, they had blueprint reading, they had welding, they had tube bending, they had plumbing code. It was actually top-of-the-line school. Franklin: You’d mentioned earlier, before the interview, that your uncles had said, oh, you can come be a laborer, but they told you that, when you got the offer for the Pipefitters’, they told you to take that. I’m wondering if you could describe that? How come you— Bell: My uncle was smart. He knew that type of work doing as a laborer was really, really strenuous work. But he also knew that the Pipefitters’ paid more, too. Franklin: So he pushed you to-- Bell: He knew that I already wanted to be, but I hadn’t got in yet. So that’s the other deal. If I hadn’t got in, he’d say, well, you know what? You can be a laborer and then later on if you still get in there, you’d have two trades. Franklin: Cool. Could you describe a typical workday as a pipefitter? Bell: A typical workday, depending on where you was, you were probably working out somewhere where there wasn’t a bathroom and everything was pretty much outhouses, because we built these buildings and once they were built then maintenance took over and we were gone. You’d be out in the Area, out working somewhere. It’s 100 in the summertime out here. Back then it’d hit 130, 140 out in the areas, so that’d one work day. But then if your—typical day when you’re working out on the WPPSS Plant, you’d be out there building this plant or building two plants. Get probably there by 7:30; the work’s done by 3:30, 4:00 at the latest. You’re working with a journeyman is showing you how to put in pipes, put in hangers. You’re working anywhere from 30-inch pipe to half-inch pipe, quarter-inch pipe, depending on what you’re working on. Piping—in pipefitting, you can’t do anything, you can’t have a building or anything without pipefitting because all your hydraulics for your heating and cooling, your water, you got to have a bathroom for every facility. You really can’t get away with—there’s just so much work for pipefitters. Franklin: Did you acquire any skills or experience on the job that helped you later in life? Bell: I’d say yes. Again, you learn to adjust to people, because—I told you when we were younger, when we went to Robert Frost, I was egged on with name calling to see how you would react. Well, being a pipefitter, there wasn’t that many blacks in the pipefitting around here. Trying to get in and get yourself in, a lot of people didn’t really want to show you anything, so you had to show them why you was worthy of them showing you how to be the person you could show. It took, it was education going through there, because that was a new testing ground, too. Franklin: Yeah. How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and with your supervisors? Bell: I got along real well. I just had a few incidents where I ran into problems, but it was just because, as an apprentice, it’s a pushy business. If you’re the journeyman, you can do all these little tricks to the lower person. Where, when I turned to be a journeyman, I said, no, I’m stopping it. Anything that’s done wrong or a cycle that’s bad, at some point somebody has to step in and break that cycle. When I went through all that different stuff that people done to me, different tricks; when I got to be out, I didn’t want to teach, I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to change that. Because you’ve got people coming in that’s first-year, second-year apprentice, they’re 30, 25 years old, they have a wife and kids. Even though I’m younger and I’m a journeyman, you got people coming in that’s already grown men. You can’t treat them like that, or at least that’s how I saw it. A lot of those guys, well, they did it to me; I’ma do it to y’all. That mentality. I said, no, just-- Franklin: Sorry. What kinds of tricks and things? Bell: Oh, sending you out for crazy stuff, where they’d send a guy for a bucket of tack welds. A tack weld is something you start a weld with. But if you don’t know and you’re inexperienced, you’re going out and you go all these different places telling them you need the stuff and everybody know that they’re playing a joke on you. But you don’t know it yet. So you’re walking around asking. I say, you got to be smarter than that, kid. You can’t let nobody just do you like that. So I’d fill them in on, just think about it. What is a tack weld? Well, the welder. Well, then, how you think they’re going to get you a bucket of tack weld? Don’t go asking something crazy like that, because everybody is laughing at you. But once you prove yourself then those guys actually help you a lot. But it’s like initiation, I guess, it would be like if you were in college, it’s initiation. They would play tricks on you or play different pranks on you and make you do stupid stuff. Franklin: How were you treated on the job? You mentioned there weren’t many African Americans in the Pipefitters’. So I’m wondering if you think race ever played a role in any treatment. Bell: It could have played some in it, but there was enough there that anytime you’re dealing with starting out new or trying to get a venture to go, the best you can be is going to let the ground work. So my whole thing is, I need to be the best I can be. I have to be better than what I could be, because I need somebody to follow behind me to be pipefitters to be younger black pipefitters that follow behind me. So I wanted to blaze a trail and I think that’s what I’ve done, because I ended up being an instructor for thirteen years. So I took it serious. I didn’t take no time off to mess around. Everything I’ve done from day one was totally serious and to be the best that I could be every day. Franklin: What kind of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Bell: I’d say a lot of my friends are still best friends, still do stuff. Franklin: Could you describe the working conditions? Bell: Depending on what job you were on, sometimes they were bad, sometimes it’s like anything else. They want to cut corners on not doing certain stuff right. There’s certain times where you should have your safety glasses on, have your safety equipment where they say tell you, oh, go ahead. We don’t have that; we’ll get it later on. In construction, there’s a lot of deaths in construction, but one thing that people got to really look at is your safety. People say, get your safety glasses on and there’s people walking around with no safety glasses on. If something hits you in the eye and puts your eye out, it’s not going to hurt your supervisor. It’s not going to hurt the owner of the job. Franklin: Right. Bell: Put your hardhat on. That hardhat, if something falls down, I’m a construction guy. A lot of them say, well, he making us do all these things that, they’re not making you do anything; actually, all those things will save your life. That’s how I looked at it. If you had to have safety glasses, wear your safety glasses, they’re for a reason. But so many of the guys wanted to rebel and not wear—well, I don’t need a hardhat, the hardhat is too heavy, it hurts my neck, it does this, it does that. But there’s so many accidents and deaths on a construction job, too. A lot of injuries. Franklin: A lot of preventable injuries? Bell: A lot of them were preventable, some of them not preventable. You can get hurt on a construction job and do everything right. Working on the shipyards or something like that, somebody drops something. You don’t have to do nothing wrong. Somebody drops something from 40 feet up, it bounces around and hits you and kills you or maims you. Some stuff, it’s a construction job. There’s so much danger involved in it. But if it’s done right it don’t have to be. Franklin: Right. What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Bell: I think the biggest deterrent was working with people that really didn’t want to work. It just put too much pressure on the other people that have to work double to make the deadlines, make stuff happen. Most of the jobs were great and paid great, but there was so much of a turn around because those people didn’t want to pull their—they wanted the money but they really didn’t want to put in to make the money. Franklin: What do you recall about working at any of the reactors or any of the other buildings that are still on the Site today? Bell: Well, most of them are pretty much gone. I worked at 100 N. I was sort of petrified when I went out there because you heard all those stories about radiation and I thought I’d stepped into this little area and I’m in this, like, this warped time zone and you stepped in the zone and there’s radiation everywhere. But it wasn’t like that; it was like being out there, being in one of this rooms, you might have a source that has radiation, but it’s not everywhere. And it’s pretty much contained, too. But not going out there, you have fear and you hear all those horror stories. And I hear people talk today, oh, can you take your shoe off? Is your foot green? Or, we’ve heard after you work out there so long you’re going to turn glowing. You hear all these different stories, but once you work out there, you realize it’s just a myth. There is stuff that you can get into if you don’t do it right or don’t put your protective stuff on. You’re in radiation, yeah, you can get hurt bad. But there is safety measures that’ll take care of you, if you use what’s set up. Franklin: Besides N and the WPPSS reactors, what other buildings did you work at? Bell: I worked at all these Battelle buildings out here, too, which is a little bit different because it is a maintenance program. It’s a national laboratory, so they have different jobs, different projects, they work on different stuff. Battelle is an amazing place, some of the stuff that those guys come up is just ingenious. Franklin: Yeah, they have a lot of different contracts and projects going on. Anything else out on Site that you remember? Maybe anything like the 300 or 200 Areas? Bell: I was based out of 350, so. But working maintenance for Battelle, they had me go in the Area. I worked the weather station for them, all those buildings. Battelle is the only building out here that the Hanford Fire Department don’t do all the fire systems, the suppression systems, they do all their own. When I started at Battelle in ’96, they sent me to Oklahoma City to get certified to do these systems. Battelle do their own systems. Everybody else out there, the Hanford Fire Department does all of the systems. In our buildings that we needed our inspections or that we had to go and do stuff for them, the fire department would show up, but actually Battelle Pipefitters’ done all the work. Franklin: Oh, okay, interesting. How did your racial background fit into your work experience? And experiences on the job? Bell: It didn’t really, it didn’t really. Most people, once they met me, I didn’t really have a problem. There was some people that might’ve had a racial deal towards me, but once they saw my work ethics and what I’d done and how I didn’t let nothing bother me, they just went away. I never really had a problem on the job, racial problem on the job. If there was some saying, somebody else would get upset about it, and they’d say, well—they’d bring me in the office—they’d say, hey, you want to make a complaint about this person? I’d say, for what? Well, they say somebody said this. I said, listen I’m old enough to take care of myself, if I have a problem with somebody, I’ll take it. I don’t need somebody else to step in and say, somebody said this or somebody said this, or this guy ought to be fired. It’s just, you need to take care of your own stuff. So a lot of people get politically stuck on that, and that’s where you run into a big problem. I’m not there to be a divider; I’m trying to always get along and do our job to the best we could do. Franklin: In what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Bell: It really didn’t. A lot of that stuff was secret for a reason. If you’re working on something for the military, because when you’re working out there, you’re working on different projects, even at Battelle. Most of my stuff I could go home and say stuff about, but some of the stuff I worked at as a pipefitter, they were working on sensitive stuff here. So when I went in you had a guard with you all the time. Not that—but they were just protecting stuff that they had. Because some of this guys are working on military stuff out there, too. A lot highly sensitive that I didn’t have a clearance for, see, that’s the other deal. I had a clearance, but I didn’t have the top clearance to be able to be here, what if I open this drawer here and I’m into already top secret stuff or I got into his computer over here, I’m already on top secret stuff that I’m not supposed to be. Franklin: How did you feel at the time when you were out on Site about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Bell: I don’t think I ever really thought about it. I just thought about it, I was one player with a team doing a job. I never thought about it as making weapons for this or that. Franklin: How do you feel now about those experiences? Bell: It still don’t change me a lot, just because a lot of that stuff was necessary to protect most people in the United States. I don’t think it really fazed me that much. Franklin: What do you think was the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Bell: I think being able to protect the United States. Because Hanford was just one—a lot of people think that all this stuff was all only Hanford. When you think about it the Manhattan Project, a lot of people don’t understand there was more than one place, because—I think the smartness of that, if Hanford was the only place they could’ve just attacked Hanford at one time. But being that they were in New York, they were in Los Alamos. They were separated four or five different spots to make all this stuff come together; it wasn’t one spot. Franklin: Okay. What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Bell: Only from my family and different people, I just, growing up in Pasco I knew there was a lot of Afro Americans that worked out here. What jobs they did, I wasn’t sure, but I think a lot of them were laborers. I think the basic job was laborer. You did have some skilled workers, some electricians, some pipefitters, very few insulators, maybe one or two boilermakers. But predominantly laborers, I believe. And then later on, different—you started getting educated people coming out here from the South and different stuff, coming up to Battelle as interns, coming out to be engineers or different things. Franklin: From your perspective, what were their most important contributions in the area work, community life and civil rights? Bell: Whose? Franklin: The African Americans, the prior African American workers form the Manhattan Project on to when you started? Bell: I just think lot of those turned out to be pillars of the community, lived to be in their 80s and 90s, that worked out there and still able to pass that on to the younger generations some of the stuff that had happened out there, specially to family members. I think what was shared most. I don’t think we shared a lot just openly with everybody, but they let their families know. And there was enough of them working in the same area that most our uncles or dads or stuff worked out there, or grandads, or great-grandfathers worked out there in some cases. Franklin: What were they major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during the time here? Bell: I think just trying to get equality was the biggest thing. And even though you weren’t in the South, they had problems here too, because I just think a lot of the stuff was hid a lot more than it was in the South. I think in the South they were just straight out front; wasn’t none of it hid. But you still have problems here with racism, too. It just-- Franklin: How did those problems manifest themselves? What kind of specific problems did you know that the community was facing here? Bell: Just not being treated totally equal through the police department. It took a while to get some changes to make stuff change around here. Just to be stopped for no reason or pulled over for no reason or if you got a new car, how did you get a new car? Are you a drug dealer? That stereotype, if you got something good you couldn’t have worked for it. Which, in some case they might’ve been right, but probably 90% of the perception was wrong. Franklin: What about housing issues? Do you remember hearing much about that? Bell: Yeah. It’s the same thing when you start dealing with housing. You weren’t offered a house if you were just a normal person in Richland or Kennewick. But if they knew you had a good job and you had the money, like me, I was a pipefitter. I wanted a house in Pasco and they were telling me, there’s no good houses in Pasco. Or the realtor would take you to a bad house in Pasco, something that nobody would want to live in. That’s why you need to get a house in Richland, Kennewick. I go, I don’t need to get a house in Richland, Kennewick. I want a house in Pasco and if you can’t find me one, I’ll build one. It was just trying to push you out of Pasco to try to get over. Because basically they wanted your money is what I thought. You’re making money you should be where all the people that make money at. But I grew up right here. Franklin: Did you know much about the segregation of east Pasco from the west, or the prohibitions of blacks living in Kennewick? Bell: I don’t know when the first blacks lived in Pasco, but I mean, for a long time when I was a youngster you couldn’t be caught. That bridge over here, the blue, new, bridge now, but it used to be a green bridge and there was a sign over there for many years. I don’t remember what year they took it out, but it basically said, you better not be caught after sundown. So Kennewick was a hard place to be at. Didn’t hear a lot about Richland, but Richland had their sides about them too. They didn’t put up any signs or nothing like that, but when you came through, you definitely get pulled over, or if you was in the wrong area, for some reason the police would show up and want to know why you’re over here, do you have a reason for being over here? You didn’t have the leeway of going wherever you wanted to go. You’re out of place, it looked like, so someone would call the police and say, we have these kids in the area, what are they doing over here? Even though we were there to visit a friend. Franklin: Did that happen? Bell: It did happen. Franklin: When did that happen? Bell: I had that happen to me probably when I was in junior high school. Franklin: Really? Do you remember who you were visiting? Bell: I don’t remember at the time who I was visiting, but like I said, even today, even today if I was in an area, a big area, just driving around looking at houses, I might want to buy one, somebody might make a phone call. Franklin: Could you describe that situation, the event? Like, how large was your group and were you just visiting someone? Bell: Yes. I don’t know who was going over to play ball or what, but I remember that we had got over there and all of a sudden a police officer came up. And some of the guys were wanting to get mouthy. And I said, no, no, just let me talk to them, okay? Let me talk to them. You don’t want to get into an argument because then you are escalating the situation, so then the police officers say something to you and somebody says something back and leads to something else. Somebody’s pushed so you push an officer, and now we are all going to jail. I said listen, do we have the right to be in Richland? Because if we don’t, you guys need to tell us that we can’t come to Richland. Well, no one said you can’t; we’re just trying to figure out what you’re doing in this area. Well, we’re visiting somebody. I’m a diplomatic person, I try to get them say why I can’t be there. Try to get them to say, well, somebody called and you don’t fit in this area, why are you in this area? Franklin: What was the resolution of that incident? What happened? Bell: He let it go. Because I talked to him calm enough. Now, if I’d have argued with him, what’s your business? Why you asking me where I’m going? Do you ask everyone else that comes? See, if I say something to him like that then he has the reason to say that we have no reason being over there. Or we just had someone broke in over here; was you guys are involved in? So even if it wasn’t nothing, that’s the scenario you would get hit with, so you just keep yourself out of those positions. That’s how I teach my kids, too. Stay out of those confrontational deals if you don’t have to be. You be the bigger person. You can intelligently say something to him to let him know. Did I do anything wrong, officer? This road did come into this town and these streets go to these different houses. If there’s certain stuff we shouldn’t be, or we’re not allowed to go into this town, then y’all need to post that. Then he takes it form there and says, no, these guys aren’t doing anything there. I gave them enough stuff to put him in a position that he’s either going to tell me I can’t be in this town or—so he just let us go. Franklin: Right on. With the civil right issues that we just talked about, what actions were being taken to address those issues? Bell: I think they were trying to do stuff through the city council. But with us, we weren’t doing it in Richland or Kennewick because we didn’t live there. There wasn’t enough there to be done in their towns. Franklin: What about in Pasco? Bell: In Pasco, I know they had problems, but I know through the city council and through different church groups they got a lot of that turned around. Franklin: Who were some of the important leaders of civil rights efforts and that in Pasco? Bell: I think, Reverend Allen was one of them. There were a couple of them back then, I don’t remember who all of their names were. But a lot of them were from, preachers from the church. Reverend Bond. Most of them were probably church clergy, because they were at a point where they could handle both sides without—getting them to come in, they were from the clergy, so pretty much they had to talk to them. That always seemed like, even if you look at, today is 50 years ago that Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis, a minister. Through the black communities, through civil rights, no matter Pasco or wherever in the United States, it’s been pretty much the clergy that’s been the backbone of that. Franklin: What were some of the notable successes in civil rights efforts in Pasco? Bell: Oh, I just think that getting jobs, getting different people into positions on the police department. Back then, I don’t think they had no blacks. I can’t remember the first year they had a black police officer. And you have seen that evolution over the years happen. I think a lot of that has changed a lot of stuff. As a matter of fact, even with the Hispanic in the police department is--because I remember when I was growing up there was no color at all in the police department, that I can remember. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges for civil rights efforts in Pasco? Bell: I think just trying to get a foothold. Doing civil rights when you don’t have that many people. I don’t know what the breakdown on population, but as the years that went on that numbers got closer and closer. When you only have a small group and then everybody don’t think the same. If you got a small group, you got to pretty much be tightknit group to stay together and make everything going, but if you got half believing it and half not, you’re already divided, so it’s easy for them to conquer you. But that would probably be the big deal. Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Bell: I’d say probably not. I mean, I think my contribution now would be the work I do now. I started a mentor program at Stevens. I’m just trying to get some of these youngsters to understand how to get along in America today. Franklin: What kind of challenges are kids facing these days? Bell: Well, our kids, some of them just don’t understand. Well, education has got to be that big thing. It just seems like it’s dropping off of our kids and I don’t know why, because you can’t do nothing without education. And just trying to make them understand that if you don’t have education you’re not going to be able to do anything. You ain’t going to be able to take care of your family, you’re not going to be able to take care of your parents. That job, when I started out working, I didn’t have any kids or wife, so I was able to help my mom out. And a lot of kids don’t have that, they don’t have that sense of family. My mom they worked, they helped. My wife’s family—my wife’s full-blooded Mexican—her dad worked here and sent money home to his mom in Mexico. That type of family knit. Some of these kids they just don’t have it, they don’t understand what their grandparents, great-grandparents went through, the trailblazers for them to do and now it just seems like it’s easier, they don’t care what—I cared about that. I’m a history buff, so I cared about all that stuff. And just trying to get these kids to understand that if you don’t understand where you came from, how do you know where you going? A lot of them, they just don’t care, or don’t want to know. Your grandmother worked all these hours to put stuff on your back, help your mom. They just don’t care. It’s like there is no appreciation for it these days. I think that’s the big downside for us. No appreciation of what was done before to get you where you at. I mean, we shouldn’t be going backwards. We should be going forward. And I think it’s too much going backwards, on our part, now. On other parts, too, but I can’t—we can’t worry about other parts. You only can only worry about what you do and we should be progressing. Franklin: When you say we, do you mean the black community? Bell: The black community. Not the ones that was out there. I’m talking about the youngsters that’s coming up. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the future. I’m 60, so I’m looking at these kids that, first graders that—start having a sense of what you want to do, start understanding what history was about, start understanding art history, too. That’s the big part. I didn’t grow up in Mississippi. I didn’t have to endure none of that. But from my parents and my grandparents, I have learned that was something I didn’t want to do. Franklin: Right, right. You feel your quality of life was better because your parents had left that system-- Bell: My quality of life was great because of what they went through. Franklin: Yeah. When did your work at Hanford come to an end, and what did you do afterwards? Bell: My Hanford work stopped about nine years ago. I left Hanford on a medical disability nine years ago, on the 22nd of this month. Franklin: Oh, okay. What did you do afterwards? Bell: I haven’t done much, really, other than I do some mentoring, I’m on the School Board Builders in Pasco for looking at schools out—they call it the Pasco Builders. Just doing stuff in the community over there. I’m working in east Pasco with the three elementary schools and the junior high over there, trying to get the voting for the Hispanic families that’s over there, trying to get them to get more of a weigh-in on voting over there. Most of the stuff I’m doing over there, even though east Pasco doesn’t have that many Afro-American families over there, I’m still a product of east Pasco, so I’m still trying to do everything I can to make east Pasco part of Pasco. Franklin: I wanted to ask you about that, because it seems like you’re kind of in an interesting transitional place, where you had grown up—when you grew up, East Pasco was primarily African American. And now Pasco has changed—Franklin County itself has changed, to be majority-Hispanic. And you mentioned earlier you’re married to a full-blooded Hispanic woman. It seems like your family is kind of emblematic of that transition. How has east Pasco changed since you were a kid and is it still facing some of the same issues? Bell: It’s still facing some of the same issues just because east Pasco is left out, I feel. Until Pasco can pull east Pasco into Pasco—because you still have that dividing line. The underpass and the railroad tracks is a dividing line; until they can ever just pull that together—I don’t know how much success they can have if they have ever done that. Because then you’re including everybody, not just part of the people. When we were there, that’s what it was then, too. So it never did change. And now we’re 60 years later from when I was born, you still have the same transition. I mean, it’s a little bit better, because there’s four schools over there. When I was growing up there was only one school over there. Franklin: Which school it that? Bell: Whittier. But it’s burnt down. The original Whittier, the one that was built in 1911. Franklin: Wow. How has the community changed in east Pasco? What’s the makeup of the community now? Bell: In east Pasco? Franklin: Yeah. Bell: It’s predominantly Hispanic. I’d say 85%, 90%. There’s still some black families over there in the same area where I grew up at. That corner over there probably has the majority of African Americans around Kurtzman Park. Franklin: Where do you live now? Bell: I live off of Road 50. Franklin: Okay, so kind of in west. Bell: West, yeah. That used to be the country, but now—because Pasco stopped at 395. And then, as they kept moving it back, now Pasco is all the way to Road 100. You still have cows and little farms where they can still have animals because they’re grandfathered in. Road 32 was the country when I was growing up. That’s how far Pasco’s grown, and how big it’s gotten. Franklin: Yeah, it really has pushed out, sprawled out. You mentioned that you had not just worked at Hanford when you were a pipefitter; you had moved, you had worked around a lot of different places. Bell: Because I was a construction pipefitter. Franklin: What other kinds of places did you work? Bell: I left here when the work stopped. In construction, usually, there’s a ten-year phase, West Coast/East Coast. Well, when we graduated, before the WPPSS project got into problems—if they would have stayed online and done what they were supposed to do, we were supposed to have 50 years of work out here. I was supposed to never ever left here. I just barely graduated and all the work went away in construction. I went to New Jersey and worked. Worked on an ore refinery in New Jersey. Franklin: Oh, wow. How were your experiences in other places different from the Tri-Cities? Bell: Oh, I wouldn’t say truly different. It’s just adjustments. When you go to the city, or you go to the country—amazingly, a lot of my friends that’s here, they worked in South Carolina and stuff in the South, they just picked those spots. I never worked in the South. Philadelphia might’ve been as far south as I—and that’s not the South. I worked in Philadelphia, I worked in New Jersey, I worked in Ohio, I worked in New York, in different projects. Franklin: Mid-Atlantic area? But pretty significant African American communities in a lot of those places. Bell: Oh yeah. If you get in those places there, you’re—yeah. Franklin: What kind of work and housing, and social opportunities were available to you when you were working in the East Coast? Bell: It was easy for me because I had the money. When you got the resources of money, but you’re living in Philadelphia and in those inner-cities where the money level is not real high for the minorities. Franklin: Yeah. What surprised you about when you left Tri-Cities and you were working in the Mid-Atlantic area, what surprised you about the African American experience there? Bell: Well, I guess the biggest thing would be the way of life. A lot of them lived in which would be projects. I guess if you compare their projects to us, it probably would’ve been when we lived in the Navy Homes, type of deal. But just, there’s so many families running that same cycle. Nobody getting out or breaking out. I think if I lived there for a long time, I’d have to break out, even if I didn’t know what I was doing, or didn’t know what was ahead of me. But just staying in the area doing the same routine. The grandparent to the kids to the grandkids, everybody—nobody leaves, they’re all in the same area, for the most part. So just getting out and doing something different. I’ve always been the person to want to do my own thing, not I follow what somebody else done. Franklin: What challenges did you encounter, if any, working out there? Bell: Working away from Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Bell: Not really a lot of challenges. I guess a lot of people were amazed at my skill level. But I wasn’t, because I was trained at one of the best facilities in the world. People say—you’re working on a job and say they’re laying off this person, this black electrician, or this black pipefitter got laid off, why didn’t they lay you off? I go, I don’t know. I’m here every day, I know what I’m doing, I’m on the job a half an hour before the job starts. I don’t know what kind of answer to give you to that. I’m 3,000 miles away from home; I have to be my best. I can’t come in here be off today, miss tomorrow. They looking for somebody to be here every day and that’s all I’ve been used to, is going to work every day. So no matter where I go that challenge never hits me. When you’re working in the city and stuff, you have people missing three days a week or coming in late every day. If I was a boss, I wouldn’t allow that. That’s why I always flip to them, if you were the boss, would you allow somebody to come into your job late every day or miss two or three days? You got a deadline to get this project done. Franklin: Yeah. In what ways did your experience at Hanford affect your outlook on issues of racial discrimination and civil rights in the United States at that time? Bell: I don’t think I really looked at it that way. It was enough people still working out there that got a chance to—and the ones that didn’t stay is because of something they’d done. I didn’t see none of those jobs lost on a racial bias. I thought most of them was done because of something what the person had done. They either had a bad enough accident that got them in trouble or they kept compoundly doing stuff that they were told not to do. It wasn’t—I didn’t look at this being that they just got fired for the color of their skin. They were just as good, but they got fired for the color of their skin, I never saw that out there. Franklin: Were you involved in any civil rights activities after leaving Tri-Cities? Bell: No. Franklin: Okay. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Bell: For me living, like I said, I’ve lived all over the country, but I love this area. It’s a great area, you have four seasons, we can grow anything we want here, we have actual summertime. I lived in New York and, I mean, if they got 40 degrees, that was their summer, 40 degrees. That was hot to them. They all probably couldn’t make it from where I’m from. To me, it’s a great area to grow your kids up in, you don’t have to worry about a lot of stuff. It’s almost a perfect setting to live in the Tri-Cities, even opposed to Seattle. This area is just—and you had the work here, you have the education here, you got this WSU campus here, the big campus isn’t that far away. I just think it’s the ideal area and there’s nowhere else in the United States I’d rather live. And I‘ve moved around and stayed other places, but I always kept Pasco as my base. Even when I lived in New York and New Jersey and Philadelphia for two years, I still had Pasco as my base. I was just working a job, just because I couldn’t work here. Franklin: Yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights, and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Bell: No, I just think with my uncles coming out here and my dad coming out here and paving that way for me, gave me—if they never came out here, I wouldn’t have got a chance to probably be the person I am. I probably would’ve changed in some other way if I had to grow up in Mississippi. I thank God that they had the fortitude of when they got to the age that they could leave, they left, and open this opportunity for me and my other siblings to do some of the stuff we wanted to do in life. Get that equal opportunity. That’s all you ever ask for, is an equal opportunity and I think them making that move gave me the opportunity to be the man I am today. Franklin: Great, well, Donald, thank you so much for coming in and interviewing with us. Bell: Thank you for having me. Franklin: All right. Bell: All right. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100-N WPPS Battelle Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1958- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1976-2009 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donald Bell, Sr. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Segregation School integration Civil rights movements Racism Description An account of the resource Donald Bell, Sr. was born in 1958 in Pasco, Washington and worked on the Hanford Site from 1976-2009. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/04/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0f7a1080ceb3d6a90723c7f13a36df81.JPG 634281ef42eea2eb7cad255a0ba79ae7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marion Keith Barton Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Hi, my name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Marion Keith Barton on May 1st 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. We’ll be talking with Keith about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full legal name for us? Marion Keith Barton: Marion Keith Barton. M-A-R-I-O-N, K-E-I-T-H, B-A-R-T-O-N Franklin: Great, thanks, Keith. Let’s start by talking about your life before Hanford. Where and when were you born? Barton: I was born in Pasco. August 21st, 1951, at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital at Pasco. Franklin: Okay, so you’re local from the area. Barton: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. So I guess let’s back up a little further and talk about your parents. When did they come here and why? Barton: The Hanford Area—the Project here brought my dad and mom out this way in 1948. They were seeking work. They both are from Texas. I think my dad may have come out first and then my mom followed along and that’s how they got started. Franklin: Where in Texas were your parents from? Barton: My dad was, I think, born in Kildare, and my mom was born in Gonzales. My dad worked at a refinery but I don’t think it was in Kildare; it was in another part of Texas. So he had to go there for work, when he got older. My mom, I think, grew up in Gonzales. Franklin: How did your parents hear about Hanford? Barton: Through other relatives that had taken a—someone had come out here and started to work. A relative, I’m sure, because we’re related to a lot of people that were here at that time. They would phone back, or call back, whatever, and tell them, hey, there’s work out here at Hanford and you should come out. We’re making two dollars an hour or something, but it was a lot more than what they were making back in Texas, and so a lot of people just—another, another, another would come out and go to work. Franklin: What were the names of the folks that your parents were related to? Anybody stand out? Barton: The Daniels family, the Mitchells and the Miles. My dad was married to the Miles family that was out here. He was married to Gladys Miles at the time, I think in Texas. And then they divorced and he married my mom. Some of the relatives of Miles, they would never tell me anything. And they would call my dad, hello. Uncle Cracker. Because his name was Crack and they would him Cracker and all that stuff, but that’s what they would call him. They would him Uncle Cracker and I’d go—what? I never knew why they would call him that. But then I found out later he was married to their aunt and stuff. [LAUGHTER] Okay, now I put two and two together. But there was a lot of stuff that they wouldn’t share with you about the family history, and we didn’t have that way of tracking it back then like we do know. Franklin: Yeah. You said your dad’s name was--? Barton: Marion. Franklin: Your dad’s name was Marion? Barton: Yeah. But he had—I don’t know. I think he played baseball. A lot of people that—sometimes, like when they passed away, no one would know if they put “Marion” in the paper who was because they all went by their nickname. You wouldn’t know some of the people that even I grew up with. The only way thing you knew them was by their nickname. Franklin: So your dad’s nickname was Cracker? Barton: Yeah, and they called him Crack. But my mom and dad were Mr. and Mrs. Barton to each other. That was pretty easy. [LAUGHTER] You would know it when they said it. But that was the way that it was, and they all had nicknames. Franklin: Yeah, it seems like a lot of people came out of Kildare. That town, specifically— Barton: Oh, yeah. Franklin: --to come to work at Hanford. Was it just your dad that worked out there, or did your mom work out there as well? Barton: It seemed like my mom worked out there briefly but I mostly know that my dad worked out there more. Franklin: What else do you know about their lives before they came to work at Hanford? Barton: Well, my mom, when she was in Texas as a young girl, I think, she would just work for other families in the Texas area. She did like cooking and cleaning houses, and stuff like that, when she was in Texas. My dad, he was at the refinery and so somehow they met up. Franklin: What do you know about their education? How far in school did they get? Barton: My mom had maybe a year or so of college and my dad only had sixth grade education. Franklin: Oh, wow. What do you know about their initial experiences coming to work at Hanford and finding a place to live? Barton: Well, when they came to the Tri-Cities and to Pasco area—I think Kennewick was pretty much off-limits—and all the family wanted to stick close to each other and be around each other. I don’t think you could live from where the tracks were in Pasco, like past 1st Street and the underpass. You had to live in the east Side of Pasco at the time; you couldn’t live on the other side. Once you got past 1st Street you could live there for a long time. I think Richland was pretty much off-limits, too, to the black folks who came out here. I know my mom would ramble on sometimes, but my mom would say you couldn’t even get arrested in Kennewick; like, they wouldn’t even put you in jail if you were black. It was like 1st and Washington, I believe, a black guy, he was arrested. And she would tell me the story that they handcuffed him or tied him to a post and called Pasco and said, come get him. Come get your N-word. Yeah. That was pretty much the way it was. A few things that I would hear them say, just sitting around as a kid. Because as a kid, when they would talk, back then, you couldn’t say anything as a kid, you would just listen. If they said something that they didn’t want you to hear about their life, you had to go outside and play. So you couldn’t hear—well, just bits and pieces of what was going on. Franklin: Yeah. Where did your parents first move when they came to the Tri-Cities? Do you remember the first house they lived in? Barton: Oh, yeah, I mean, they were on 610 South Owen Street in Pasco. That’s where I grew up. Franklin: South what? Barton: South Owen. Franklin: Owen. Barton: Owen, O-W-E-N. Franklin: O-W-E-N. Barton: Yeah, and I think the house was condemned. When I was in high school, it was condemned. It had to be torn down, because it had no foundation. He had—basically, had a trailer that was sitting on that property and he built the house and he knocked out a wall of the trailer and built the house. The kitchen, a bedroom and a living room on to the trailer at the house, with no foundation and with part of the trailer still being there. They had to move, and so then we moved about two blocks up to Elm Street in the early ‘60s, around maybe ‘65, ’66—maybe somewhere in there, we moved to Elm Street—525 South Elm. And that was only two places up that we lived. Franklin: Great. Growing up, how would you describe life in the community? Barton: It was fun. Just growing up as kids, you just go and have fun and a lot of people around just playing and having fun. It was pretty nice. Franklin: Did you stay mostly in east Pasco? Barton: Yeah, pretty much, most of the time. We would go across, like when I got older and played Little League and baseball, we would go to Memorial Park and have games there. And then just kind of—we’d just walk back from there. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Barton: Well, in the summer time, as was a young kid, we didn’t have jobs or anything, so I would just play and stuff like that. I had strict rules not to get in trouble. [LAUGHTER] So those rules were pretty tight at the Barton household. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events? Barton: As a youngster, my dad would always have white parties at the Fourth of July. But other community events when I was really young, I don’t remember. Then they would have, sometimes—my mom was a democrat, so they would have different deals like a dinner or something. My dad would never go, but my mom would take me along and we would go to certain events like that. Franklin: You already talked about the house that you grew up in. Did you live by yourself or did you live with any other families? Was it a single family house or a multifamily situation? Barton: No, just our family. I had a sister there but she was like ten years older than I was. So by the time I got eight, I think, she was gone and had moved out. Franklin: Did you attend church? Barton: All the time I had to attend church. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Church was big. You had to go to church. I don’t go much now, but-- Franklin: What church did you attend? Barton: We attended New Hope Baptist Church. Franklin: New Hope Baptist. And what role did church play in the community? Barton: A big role. That’s where a lot of people got together. And I think that’s part of how they dealt with a lot of stuff and stresses: in church and the meeting and seeing other people. But Sunday was always church day. My dad didn’t go. No, he didn’t go. But my mom did. Franklin: Just your mom and you? Barton: My mom did, and I had to go. Franklin: You mentioned an older sister. How many siblings did you have? Barton: Just my older sister. Franklin: So your family’s just you and your older sister? Barton: My sister. Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions that people brought from the places they came from? Barton: Well, the Fourth of July was a big one. And baseball, I think was big. Before I got old enough, my dad was—how much older was he than I was? He was getting up in age when I started—I think he pretty much retired when I was in high school, so he wasn’t real active. But when they first moved here and were younger, they all played baseball. The Daniels, my dad, and several other guys in the community had a league that they played in. But I only know bits and pieces, because I was so young and I probably didn’t understand. But I know that they would always talk about playing baseball. That’s what they did for recreation and fun. Franklin: What about food? Did your parents—did people bring food traditions with them from the South? Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. They would like—Fourth of July, like fish fry. There was a big fish fry on the Fourth of July. But they didn’t have—my mom and dad were pretty nice to a lot of people. People would come up and didn’t have much. Sometimes they would stay with us until they got on their feet and found a job and then they would move out. For the church, for fundraisers they would have on different Saturdays, they would sell fried chicken dinners and like that. They wouldn’t like—I think you could get a dinner for like—I don’t remember, something like three dollars, and you’d get fried chicken and a piece of pound cake and some other stuff like that. That’s how they would raise money for the church, the building fund, I guess it was—they were trying to help with. Franklin: Oh. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. Franklin: What kind of opportunities? Barton: Work, just general, just work. They could work, but the amount of money they made back in Texas was minimal. And I don’t think they had the opportunity—with my dad’s education, I don’t think he had an opportunity to move up the ladder very much as far as getting a real high-paying job. My mom, she had more education, so she came out, and later on she got a job at Ice Harbor Dam as a biological aide, which was a fish counter. And so we did pretty good when she started working. Franklin: Oh, wow. In what ways were opportunities limited because of segregation or racism? Barton: My mom, she was pretty active as far as for the community. She was on a lot of committees and stuff. We didn’t have sidewalks, so she tried to push to get sidewalks and stuff like that for the community. And I know she would work real hard for CAC, the Community Action Committee, I believe it was called. She was big on trying to get city hall to get provisions. Because on east side they wouldn’t do hardly anything with the roads, and I don’t think we ever did get to see sidewalks all around, but a few here and there. It was difficult. So it was a fight all the time to try and get improvements for the community. Franklin: Could you describe any interactions that you or parents had with people from other parts of the Tri-Cities? Barton: Mostly just church folks and stuff like that, that I would see. Just relatives and stuff, mostly. And my dad, he had a few friends come by that—he liked to drink, and so he would have his drinking buddies come by. He had a pretty good relationship, I think, sometimes with the people that he worked with, and they would come by and see how he was doing, and bring him stuff like that. It was mostly just—they would work hard during the week, and the weekend they would go down to, I think, Jackson’s Tavern. He wasn’t a gambler or anything; he just liked to drink. But church was the big thing, how you had most of your interactions, it was just mostly with the church. That’s what they did. That was the big part of everything, was the church. Franklin: Yeah. Where did you go to school? Barton: Well, grade school I went to Whittier, which was on the east side. After Whittier, I did sixth grade at Whittier. And then I went to Isaac Stevens Junior High School. From there to Pasco High School. From there to CBC. And from CBC to Eastern Washington University. Franklin: How did segregation or racism affect your education? Barton: My mom always pushed for me to stay in school. Because I know one time she came home, she said—I think I was in the seventh grade, and my grades were not good. But the teacher—she would go to the meetings to see how I was doing. She came back and said that one of the teachers had told her, Mrs. Barton, we wouldn’t worry about your son, she says, because most of the black kids drop out of school in the seventh grade anyway. And my mom was pretty feisty. She said—I think she had a few choice curse words for him. She told him, I don’t know how many other kids drop out of school, but this one is not dropping out of school. She made a point to them that I wasn’t going to drop out of school. That kind of upset her real bad and I would hear that a lot. She would tell that story at different times to a lot of different people. Yes, yes. She was, like I say, pretty active as far as making sure that I stayed out of trouble. I had to stay out of trouble for one, and trying to make sure that she was up on what I was doing as far as education and stuff like that. But I had just kind of slacked off and I didn’t really try real hard. But I had to go to school and do something. Franklin: Yeah, thanks, that’s a great story. Who were some of the people that influenced you as a child? Barton: My mom. My dad, he didn’t say a lot to me. I don’t think he ever—well, he couldn’t really tell me about my grades, because he didn’t know. But my mom, she would—like, they would sell encyclopedias, she made sure that she bought a set. And different things for me to learn and to do things. Then the Mitchells—WS Mitchell, he was Vanessa’s uncle, I believe, but he went to Whitman and he would come by and he would talk to me a lot, too, and encourage me to stay in school and to do good and stuff like that. She was big on getting an education. She tried hard and she wanted me to do something. She didn’t want me to—like I said, I couldn’t get in trouble. Bad deal. Franklin: Yeah. Seems like that’s been really—that was drilled into you. Barton: Yes, it was drilled into me a lot. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What did your father do at Hanford? Barton: He was a laborer most of the time. I think he worked with the concrete a little bit, but I think he was just—he worked out of Local 348 in Pasco. Franklin: Which one’s that? Is that just the laborers’ union? Barton: Laborers’ Local, laborers’ Union. As I got older, I think he had a tough time at one while, because they had an election and my dad was behind this one guy that didn’t win. And the guy that won knew that, and so my dad was real limited on getting a good job after that. He quit later on, and he went—this guy that used to be in the orchard business, Bob Guier, I think he had a lot to do in the laborers at one time, I think he was a supervisor. My dad worked a lot of the dams like Ice Harbor, Lower Monumental, and a couple others that I remember, and so he just—the guy wouldn’t give him a lot of work and so it was kind of hard on him. So he went out to work in Finley for Bob Guier, he was like a supervisor or something. Well, he was like—people would come in to pick grapes, and my dad would be, okay, you’re in charge of making sure of getting all of these done. But my mom was really upset with that because he didn’t make—Bob didn’t pay him a lot of money. And my dad wouldn’t go back and work out of the Hall anymore for some reason, whatever happened to him, it just set him back. It was kind of sad in a way, because he just wouldn’t go back and get his—and one guy tried to get him to come back so he would get his pension set, and he wouldn’t go back. It was a little bit difficult and whatever happened he wouldn’t talk about it, he would never sit down and tell me, hey, Son, this is what happened to me. So I didn’t know. But I know they tried to get him to go back; my mom said, you need to go back. There was one guy from the Hall, I think it was Paul Milsap. He got in later on, and he came to my dad and said, Mr. Barton—he called him Cracker—he said, you need to come back and go back out and get your pension set. And my dad just said, no. Because Bob had been nice to him and so he was kind of loyal to Bob. Bob needed his help, so he wouldn’t go back; he helped Bob. He just worked with him for—until he got to where he couldn’t get around so good. Franklin: Let me see my sheet here. So the next set of questions, they’re about your work history and experiences at the Hanford site. What sort of work did you do out at Hanford? Barton: Do you want to go to start or later on? Franklin: Yeah, let’s go through the whole thing. Barton: I’ll do the best on my memory then to tell you. Back in high school, I think once I had gotten 18, I think, you could work out at the Area. So I got a job on the 300 Area, just a summer job. I would go out and wash windows and they would put me with someone and do—pick up trash. It was okay for a few years. I worked there for about two summers. Then they liked me out there, and I went to CBC and they said, well, you can work nice—they gave me an opportunity and said, if you’re going to the school in the day, you can come out and work at the 300 Area at night, because the summer job was ending. I said, oh, I think I better try to do some homework and stuff, because—[LAUGHTER] I don’t want to get in trouble. I told them I could not. That was a good opportunity, because they liked what I did and I got along okay. But I didn’t do that. Then, let’s see. I went up to Eastern, then I came back and worked in the Area with Genie Carpet Cleaning. Then Carter ran that. I’d come home and work on the weekends sometimes, doing floors and cleaning the buildings and waxing floors and stuff like that. Then in ’73, I graduated Eastern and I worked at FFTF. And I got into a Laborers’ there and I worked about a couple years as a laborer out of Local 348. Franklin: That’s the same one your dad had been in. Barton: Mm-hmm. And I worked at FFTF for—‘til ’75. Then my girlfriend sitting over there, she decided to leave and go to Australia [LAUGHTER] because I wasn’t trying to cut the cake soon enough. She says, well, I’m going to take off and go to Australia. I said, okay. So I said, well, this is kind of boring. I need to go do something different. So ‘75 I joined the military. I went to the military for three years in the Army. And I think Kathleen got back in ‘76 or so? Kathleen Barton: ’77. Barton: ’77. And I was in the military ‘til ’78. Then I came back and I think I started working construction just for a little bit. I started working in construction, just for a little bit. But then in ’78, I got into the Apprenticeship Local 112. Because when I got back, they were looking for people for—Affirmative Action was helping some of the minorities get into the apprenticeships. At that time, they wanted blacks to get in, because it was pretty much you couldn’t just go down and get in just by applying. So there was pressure with—I think it was probably the CAC, or one of them—Affirmative Action Committee. I think it was Perry Blackwell, whatever organization he was running at the time. He said, okay, we’re putting some kids into these programs. And, he said, since you don’t have a job and just got out of the military, let me see your DD214, honorable discharge. Okay, looks like you can probably get in. Then I got into the apprenticeship in ’78. And then I did four years, I got out in ‘82. Then I worked a few jobs in the construction and then they were going to lay me off. I was—hard time finding a job and I said, I got to get something that’s more permanent, because she didn’t want me to travel. I got married in 1980. She didn’t want me to travel. She said, okay, if you’re traveling, I’m going, too. I said no, because she was teaching school. I said, no, you can’t go. I have to go. She said no, I’m not sitting here with these kids when you’re running all over the country. I said, I got to find a job locally, then. So I knew people. From growing up in the area, I knew people. C.W. Brown, he worked at Energy Northwest and our family knew their family—well, we knew pretty much all the black families that were here over time. But he worked at Energy Northwest, so he said, I’ll try put in a word for you. He said, well, they don’t have a lot; you can come out here as a laborer. I had already had my electrical apprenticeship. So I said, yeah, just when do I start? I need the work. I started as a laborer at Energy Northwest in ’84. I worked there until June 30th of 2015. Franklin: Wow. What did you do the whole time that you were at Energy Northwest? Barton: Electrical maintenance. First when I went in—I went into Energy Northwest as a laborer, just to get in. It took me about eight months and then an opening came in and they said, okay. I got into the electrical and they said, we are going to make you an apprentice again. I go, why? I said, why? Well, you don’t know this system. And I go, okay. So I had to do that for about, I think about eight months or so, after I got in. I got hired June 6th of ‘84 and I think I got into electrical until February of ’85. I had to do apprenticeship for a while. Then I got that and everything started to work out okay. I didn’t have to travel and look for work and just worked out there. Franklin: That’s great. Could you describe a typical work day? Barton: Hmm. In the beginning, it was pretty easy, pretty laid back. I had to do a lot of—at one time, I think, it was one of the hottest plants, as far as radiation, in the country, as far as them controlling it the and places and things that you had to do at work. So typical work day, laid back day, they’d just come in and give you and assignment and you go out and just start checking batteries, changing lights and doing like that. When I started you could pretty much—you could work 16 hour days pretty much, if you wanted to. It was like that, because they were just starting up pretty much. You could just work pretty much all you wanted to work. They didn’t have any—like at the end when I left they had hours where—the fatigue rule—they passed some other stuff later, where people were making many mistakes at nuclear plants that they had to—only could work so many hours for a certain period. They had that in effect. But when I started they didn’t have that in effect; you could just work and do pretty much what you wanted. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and supervisors? Barton: [LAUGHTER] It was difficult at times. Yeah, a little bit difficult. Franklin: How so? Barton: Well. You have to try to figure out what was going on at the time. And you knew that when I got into the electrical shop, I was the only black guy in there. So you weren’t told a lot of things. Some of the guys when I first got in the shop, they were letting them work all these hours, but they didn’t tell me I could work. So, I’d say, oh, okay. I think some of the guys would ask, why can’t he work, or something. And then they started letting me work a few other shifts. But it seemed like I had to do a lot of rad work, more so than—they had somewhere to go that I couldn’t figure out, I had to go in and do it, I’d go, wow, my dose limit is way up there. At times, I would be exceeding mostly everybody on the crew, as far as my dose. It was crazy. But what could you do? I couldn’t really say anything, because it was what you had to do, I guess. Some of the supervisors, they weren’t as nice. They just—but I knew that when you got out there and you started figuring it out, you didn’t have anybody really you knew to turn to for help, really. I knew I needed to work, so you just put up with a lot of stuff that—just to keep your job. The way I look at it is like this, if I go to another job, how do I know it’s going to be any different? So I just would put up with a lot of stuff sometimes. Franklin: Yeah. What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Barton: Outside of work? Sometimes we’d get in the electric shop, at times I would help coordinate a lot of stuff, so we would go and play softball and basketball after work and it was okay like that. You always knew who was who, and some of the guys that are around there that didn’t want to play or be doing that type-thing, they didn’t go. But we had interaction. It was okay. And we’d go down and have a beer or something and I made sure that I was there and to go and do it. Franklin: What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Barton: As far as? Franklin: Working conditions, but also, kind of like the work environment. Barton: I think once—it seemed like, after I first got in, and later on when some of the old-timers left and then the new people came in and some of the things changed, it got a little bit more difficult, as far as the work environment. Franklin: How so? Barton: We had this—I don’t know if I should mention names—but we had a few supervisors that didn’t want to see me in the shop, I’m sure. And then he would push other—say, for one instance, this one supervisor I had for a long time, they wanted to get rid of one of the workers and he was a white guy. The guy used the N-word. They came to me and said, this—they told me—we can’t have this, this guy is here using the N-word. And they said, this can’t happen and we need you to help us and we’re going to straighten this out. I said, why would I go after him? I’d have to go after half the shop. [LAUGHTER] I said, I’m not going to do that. I think I upset him. So it was a bad deal for me with him after that. You know, they would come up with little nitpicking stuff, like, one day I would get a work assignment and we go and get the job done. I was working with this other guy, Tony Galovese, and we fixed a gate for security. The security said, man, you guys did a great job. He said, we got some treats over in our shop. He said, you guys go have some. I told Tony, I said, Tony, I can’t go over there. I said, these guys are going to get me if I go. He said, so? I’m going. I said, okay. He went over and came back. The supervisor came and we walked into the shop and he said, where have you guys been? I said, well, we were on the gate. He said, I was out at the gate and you guys weren’t there. Tony said, well, I went over and had a piece of cake. The supervisor said, I need you both to go home. He said, you guys are out of your work area, and you should be reporting back to the shop. Just go home. I said, wow. With pay. So we got paid to go home. Okay. So, we came back and we had this big meeting and they said, well—and our steward, Tom McMahon, he came in and we talked to him, and he talked to the supervisor. Before I went home, I had to go talk to Bob Morris, who was our supervisor at the time, and he had the other guy, Bill Laternal(?) send me home. I talked to Bob, and he said, your situation is just like this. He said, you’re riding in a car with a guy and he stops and he’s going to rob the bank. And you’re in the car and you leave, you’re just as guilty as the other person. And I said, wow, okay. He said, so that’s the situation we have here. So I went home and then we went to a higher meeting, we had several other meetings and they said, we don’t see that they really did anything wrong--[LAUGHTER]—by going, you know, and reporting back to the shop to warrant sending then home for something like that. We don’t see that that should’ve happened. They said, Mr. Barton, what would you like to do with these—right now since this has happened? We don’t see that you’re at fault; what would you like to do? I said, nothing. I said, I would just like to do my job and be left alone. I don’t want to go after them, I said. I’m not after them; they’re after me. They put me in a different crew and it was a little bit different, but not a lot different, because you knew you couldn’t do anything. It’s like, you would be working, so what they would do is, okay, we’re giving out awards, people who are doing a great job around here, we are going to give out awards. So all of the people who got awards were his friends, the people that he liked. I’m still the only black guy in the shop, so I’m not going to get the award. I’m not going to base it on that, but the fact that he didn’t like me and that I didn’t follow suit and get rid of a guy that he wanted to get rid of and used me to do it was like, okay. We are going to punish you as long as we can. It was crazy at times. And then one time, I was working with this guy named Johnny Lane. Kathleen may remember this story. They were trying to put the blame on me, I think for this—I think it was about in ’93, somewhere in there, that was—we had a shutdown. And during the shutdown we had all these electrical enclosures, these cabinets that supplied power to different equipment, I’ll try to shorten the story because I do kind of carry on, I know. But when they shut the power down, sometimes they shut the feeder breaker off that’s feeding the whole cabinet. And some of them were like that, but this particular one wasn’t. We had Johnny Lane, he was working with me and we had to go clean this cabinet. I assumed Johnny knew that the cabinet was hot—or we always had to test before we touch and all that stuff. So we were cleaning down below and this cabinet blew up and Johnny got hurt. It was like, it was all my fault. How come you weren’t protecting Johnny? I go, well, I had been called away to answer a question to a guy, and I didn’t know Johnny was going to go into the top of the cabinet to clean. And then soon as I walked away, that’s when the explosion happened and Johnny got severely injured. He didn’t die, but he was injured. When it blew up, Johnny was on the ground and he was yelling and screaming and he said, Keith! Keith! And I ran back and Johnny was on fire, his clothes were on fire. I had a jacket on—it was kind of cool that day, and we were in the turbine building. So I took my jacket off and put the flames out and I grabbed Johnny because the thing was still exploding and I pulled him to the side. And then he never hardly said anything about it, there. But there was one guy in the mechanics shop, Jeff Rau. He said, Keith—and he was a steward—not our steward, but over in the mechanics. And he said, tell me about what happened. And I told him, and I didn’t know what he was doing. He said, tell me what happened up there with you and Johnny. I told him the story that I just told you. I said, well, Johnny and I were working and the cabinet blew up and Johnny was on fire, and when I grabbed him, I grabbed him by his heels, because he was just on the ground screaming. And I pulled him out of the line, because that thing was all blowing up, and got him safe. They were doing a drill that day so everybody was suited up to respond to the drill. So they reported and they came over and grabbed Johnny and flew him over to Harbor View. But Jeff said, well, Keith, I’m going to put you in for something here, because I think what you did was a heroic act, because you shouldn’t—the guy that I went to answer the question with, he was yelling at me, Keith, don’t go over there! Don’t go over there! Stay away from there! I said, I can’t, man. I don’t even think I said I can’t, I just turned and looked at him and I just ran and grabbed Johnny and pulled him out. When Johnny got out of the hospital, they had this big deal and my wife and I went up to Spokane. It was like a lifesaving award they gave me for going back and getting Johnny out of the fire. Kathleen Barton: But it was the union, not the company. Barton: Yeah, it was the union, but the company never said anything. Yeah, they didn’t even acknowledge anything. They were just like, why did you— And then I would go to class, and we were in the classroom, and someone posted all these pictures on the wall of where the fire and all that stuff was, right? You’re sitting there trying to study in this room and you have to look at that while you’re trying. I know what I went through and I wouldn’t talk about it with them. I just would look at it and say, why would they do that? Then what they did—Johnny’s daughter worked out there as a laborer. They sent her up there to clean up the stuff where her dad had gotten hurt. She had to go up there and clean up all of the debris and stuff that was on the floor and her dad almost died. I said, what kind of company is this? It was really sad. Franklin: Yeah. Barton: Yeah. It was like, wow. We have a picture of Johnny and my wife and I back then that they took up there at the award thing. And guys are saying, you need to bring that award out and put it at work. I said no, it’s not something that I’m proud of. It was something that happened, but Johnny got hurt. I’m not going to say, hey, look what I got! Because it wasn’t about me it was about—it was a sad deal. They just viewed it different. It’s like, man, why weren’t you over there? I just don’t know how to answer those questions. Because Johnny had been an electrician longer than I had. We would ride to work together sometimes. He was one of the nice guys. And Johnny had been a steward in the Local 77 at one time also. And we got along great, didn’t we, babe? Johnny and I. People probably—and Johnny didn’t pay attention—Johnny probably should have retired. I think he was about ‘67 when the accident happened. And he was still working. He probably should’ve retired. Back then, I don’t know if he had a drink that day or not that morning, when I picked him up for work. A lot of times—you know, before we had drug testing and all that stuff and breathalyzer that they got later on, some of the guys would have a sip or even smoke a joint or something before they went to work. And then Johnny—I don’t know if he had, but I don’t think they even tested him for that. I don’t think he had, anyway; it was just a mistake. So they had some changes after that. But the guys were telling me, oh, I would quit if I was you. I don’t know. I said, well, why? I mean, I don’t think I did anything wrong. It was kind of sad like that. Then a lot of stuff would happen that—you know, we would have to go into these real—we had to go into the reactor one time and it was really hot, and they didn’t know who to send in. Oh, hey, we’re going to send these guys in. And they’d prep them all and stuff and they would cancel it. This went on for about three days. I said, well, who’s going to go in? We don’t know. Then I came back to work—I was off, and I came back to work—and they said, oh, this is the night we’re going to do it. Oh, really? So I had to get a neutron and all this other gamma exposure to go do this job. And then you had to go do a body scan to see what you picked up. Probably a reason for my cancer that I had later on. But it was out there; they don’t do anything. It was difficult at times later on. The first part of it we used to play and everybody would have fun. I would, out in the shop, Frank Buono and I, we would organize a lot of feeds and stuff. Like, hey, we’re going to have this electric shop deal; we want to have everybody participate. And why not have fun like that? Later on we didn’t do that, because the rules changed and it got more serious. You couldn’t have—you had to be out on the job doing stuff. You couldn’t make—if you made a couple of mistakes you probably would not be doing the job, because they would say, okay, we’re going to pull your qual. You’re not qualified if you messed up something that—It was kind of—it was difficult. You could get blamed for stuff you didn’t do sometimes. It’s almost like, it’s like that. Franklin: in what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Barton: Security? Franklin: Yeah, or secrecy. Barton: Well, I think I was in pretty good with some of them, because sometimes you’d catch a security guard asleep. I’d say, hey, wake up, man. You got to wake up, because you don’t want to get caught asleep. So I think I was in pretty good with a lot of them. Because I wasn’t one to go and turn someone in. Even the guys—some of the guys that I worked with, if they made a mistake, or if I saw something, like if you leave something in the cabinet, I would let them know. I wouldn’t turn them in. I found a badge one time. It was in the men’s room. I said, who is this person? We need to get the badge back to them. If you went and turned—because he was a temporary guy, if I had gone to the security and turned the badge in, that guy would’ve been fired, because he was a temporary employee. A regular employee probably would’ve gotten a couple days off. Temporary? You’re gone. You left your badge. So I was the type of person to say, hey, find this guy and tell him his badge is here. So they’d get on the page and say, report to here. And he’d go over there and they’d say, here’s your badge and stuff like that. I would do stuff like that. But NRC, you really had to be careful, because I think they kind of felt that they weren’t doing their job if they didn’t find something. So they were looking all the time. They were looking for something—they were looking for something wrong—something you do wrong. We had these guys, observers who would come out and watch you work. Okay, are you—we got some service here. We want to check you out. They’d say, okay, we’re going to break; we’ll be back in 15 minutes, and so would try to go to break. But then they’d come back and watch and then see what you did. And then they would critique you and say, well, you did this well. But the thought was, you could never get 100—just like on an evaluation. You could never get 100%, depending on who you were. Because they always had to find something wrong. The supervisor would tell you, you can’t get a 100%. We will get gagged if we say that you did everything right. So you’d say, okay, well, give me that, and that’s fine. [LAUGHTER] Then if you got them really mad, on certain supervisors, you could go talk to them and tell them—and they’d say, well, you want me to change it? Yeah, you need to change it. Okay, we’ll change it. But security—NRC—you had to be real careful. If they saw you do—NRC in particular, they would come out at different times at night to check you and just to walk around. And a lot of times they were looking for security, because they’re at 12-hour shifts, and they’re night shift. The guy would come at one or two in the morning. They’d walk up and if they catch you asleep, you’re pretty much toast. And that’s what their job was, to catch you doing stuff. Everybody kind of hated NRC, and they knew what guy would come out. They would never want to interact—they would never interact with you. And I know there was one black guy that would come out, you would say, hi and he’d just walk, like—He would never have a conversation with you. Because he’s looking and we know that. Franklin: NRC just has jurisdiction over civilian energy power, right? Barton: Yeah. Well, they have—that guy would go to control room and look at stuff. If the procedure—see where you’re at in the procedure and see how they’re doing stuff, and watch their—Because you had three-way communication, as they say, and if you didn’t use the phonetic alphabet to discuss what you’re doing, your next move, and if you did something wrong—If you did something wrong in the control room, if you were an operator, you don’t work in the control room anymore. You lose your stipend, you lose your pay pretty much. They just send you out and you just go kick rocks until you can find something else to do. Or either quit. Depending on the severity of what you did, NRC would say, okay, that guy couldn’t come back. But they had to have punishment for wrongdoing because—to show that they corrected it. So it was difficult it was stressful, very, very stressful at times. Franklin: What was your reaction—or what do you know about your parents’ reaction to learning that the work that your father had done contributed to the development of atomic weapons? Barton: I don’t know. They didn’t really discuss it too much. They just said he worked out there, they built it, made a pretty good wage and they were pretty much happy, I think. So they don’t know that you did anything. Because everything was so secret. You would be working on something and I don’t think they knew. If they were actually working on something related to a bomb or something, I don’t think they knew it, because they wouldn’t tell you anything. And I knew that, that I would never hear them discuss like, oh yeah, I was in this one cell—they wouldn’t say anything that I ever heard. Franklin: It sounds like most of your work out there was not related to the plutonium production? Barton: No, not mine. Franklin: But I’m wondering, what do you think about that larger enterprise, having worked so close to it? Barton: I think they were doing stuff to try to get it right and you would see some stuff that happened that went wrong. But I wasn’t a whistle blower, so I don’t say anything, because I wanted to work. Because I knew what the repercussions were going be if you said something. You’re not going to be—[LAUGHTER] You’re not going to be working, probably, for long. And then you just kept your mouth shut about some things. I worked at 100-N and there was a big water spill and the Columbia River is right there. And I said, that’s not good! But I didn’t say anything. [LAUGHTER] That’s bad! Somebody needs to shut the water off. That water’s contaminated and it’s headed for the river! It sure is. You just kept your mouth shut. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Barton: The fact that they made the bomb and helped contribute to changing things. And that’s, I think, the big legacy: that they participated in that. Franklin: Switching away from work, and towards civil rights activities at Hanford and Tri-Cities, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Barton: Well, I know some of the times—like, you know, the money was good. I would hear the talk of—let me know if I’m not saying the right thing, though—but I would hear some of the guys talking like, if they saw that you were living well—if you were working and you were doing pretty good, and if you drove a newer car to work, you probably won’t be working very long. Because people would think that you were doing too good and that you need to have a step back. So you didn’t want to look like you were doing too good by showing that you were living a pretty good lifestyle. You just kind of had to keep it low-key. What I would see as a kid, those guys worked hard, but they drank hard, too, on the weekends. It was like—phew. But I don’t know if I told you that my mom was on the city council at one time. So she was an activist, I think, in trying to make sure that things got done. Franklin: Yes, you mentioned that she had campaigned for sidewalks. Barton: Yeah, and at the time that she was on the city council, they were pushing for the Cable Bridge. She was instrumental—or on the committee and the city council at the time that they were voting to get that cable bridge done. Yeah. And some other things, huh, babe? She was pretty outspoken, wouldn’t you say? Kathleen Barton: Mm-hmm. Barton: Yeah, a lot outspoken. So she kind of kept—pretty much ran things around the house. And then she—pretty active in the church. You tried to make sure that people that needed help would get the help that they needed and if it had to come out of her pockets, sometimes she would do that, too. Franklin: Who were the important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Barton: Back then I think Wally Webster was a big one. I think Art Fletcher came through there one time and I think he was on the city council. He was kind of a big shot. And I think my mom was in there, too, Katie Barton. Franklin: Katie Barton? Barton: Yeah. She was in there, because she knew all these people and she would go out and give talks and stuff at different things. Let me think. That’s just a few of the names. I know there’s more names, but that’s just— Kathleen Barton: Joe Jackson? Barton: Yeah, Joe Jackson, I think he was on the city council, too. He was more of the quiet type, like, I don’t know what he pushed for. Katherine, who was Katherine? She wanted to run, what was it? Senator or something? Kathleen Barton: Yes, she was. Barton: Katherine Smith. Kathleen Barton: [INAUDIBLE] Barton: Yeah, she was big in pushing my mom. Mom knew some people from WSU. There was a professor-- Kathleen Barton: Dallas Barnes. Barton: Dallas Barnes was a big one. Franklin: We talked to Dallas. Barton: Yeah. He was big. He probably knew a lot more, because he had a business on the east side of fish market and he was into a lot of things. Franklin: Yeah, we interviewed Dallas a couple, about a month ago now. We’re hoping to interview Wally. But those are some other good names. Any other names you can think of? Barton: Wayne Jackson, did you interview him? He knew a lot, because he was my mom’s campaign manager when she was for city council when she had to run at-large. He could tell you a lot about the activity and what my mom did. Franklin: Do you have contact information for him? Barton: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. Maybe I can get it from you after the interview. Barton: Yeah, I can give it to you. Franklin: Okay, what were some of the noticeable successes of civil rights efforts in the area? Barton: I think at the time before they did away with the Affirmative Action and stuff, they were instrumental in getting a lot of kids into building tradecrafts and stuff like that. Because otherwise, like now, you can’t get in, because they just—there’s nobody there to push sometimes and it makes it a lot harder. And people get overlooked and stuff like that. At the time when they had to take you in—because I would hear it, too, because I’d go to work back then, and guys would say, you got my job. I’d say, how did I get your job? Why would it just be me? Because he figured I’m the only black there, and he could’ve had that job because all the guys are white. So I took his job. Just like, really? So I would never react or say anything, I’d just usually kind of walk away and say, well, I’m sorry man. You got to be a little early next time. Stuff like that. You couldn’t be pushed to where you’re going to have a confrontation, because it’s probably not going to be good for either one of you. You just got to walk away and just deal with it. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges in the civil rights movement here? Barton: The biggest challenges, I think, was just the day-to-day grind, trying to get stuff done. Just trying to get people to realize that, hey, we need sidewalks, we need this and we need that. I know—I think my mom—I know Katherine, I think one time they went to a meeting, and they told the people at the meeting, said, if you’re not going to get certain provisions for the east side or do something for east side improvement, we will never pass another school levy. [LAUGHTER] So it was like a threat that we were going to get all the people not to vote for a levy. So count us out if you’re not going to make some improvements or any kind of thing like that for the city. I think it helped some people get jobs, like I said, that ordinarily wouldn’t have gotten jobs. They fought for people, you know, we have no blacks in certain areas and stuff and so let’s do something. Because it was hard getting hired for certain things. I was pretty fortunate, I would say. Like in the sixth grade, when I got out, Mr. Luke, he came and said, we need two guys that you would select to work at the Jumbo Restaurant. It was on the Lewis Street on the east side. He picked myself and Bill Skinner. Bill Skinner was—I don’t know what condition he’s in now, but he ran a few committees on the east side and he was—he would be a good one to talk to. I think his mind is still pretty good. He’s got a lot of physical issues, but he ran a—he could tell you a lot if you could get ahold of him. I don’t have his number. Franklin: It’s okay, we could try. Barton: I’m sure I can look it up. But I got your number and I could always call and let you know if I could get it. Franklin: Great, great. Let’s see here. I just have a couple more questions, actually. Barton: Okay. Franklin: Yeah, I think we’re almost done here. Was there anything different about the civil rights efforts here, compared to the larger civil rights—like national civil rights movement? Barton: I don’t think we had as many people out to—other than just the committees and stuff to go after things, unless—I think the fact that we didn’t have a lot of people pushing for movement or whatever. But in a way, I don’t think we had the same challenges they had in some of the larger places, either. Like I said, for a while, I don’t think I really had it all that bad. I knew that you couldn’t do a lot of stuff. But I don’t think I had it as bad as people in Seattle—maybe Seattle or even down South that they had, because it was—so I don’t know of lynchings here or anything like that. You just didn’t—maybe not get served or treated bad, but you didn’t have-- Franklin: Did that ever happen to you or your family? Did you ever get refused service? Barton: Do you remember? Kathleen Barton: I remember you and I got—remember the guy at Denny’s that got mad at us? Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I don’t remember. Sometimes it’s not that you don’t get served, but it’s almost like you go to a place and we sit down and everybody else is eating, and you’ve been there a lot longer. And you say, this is not too good. So you kind pick up on little things like that. It’s pretty subtle at times, but if you experience some of the things, you can see it right away. Franklin: Right, you can put two and two together. Barton: Yeah, you can put two and two together real fast. Franklin: Were you directly involved in civil rights efforts? I know your mom was, but did you ever get involved in anything in the late ‘60s or ‘70s? Barton: No, I just watched her. I wouldn’t—I just watched her go to stuff. We might have a dinner or something, or there’d maybe be a pageant or something. But all of the other stuff that she did with her constituents, like Wayne or Katherine Smith and people like that. And you had a lot of blacks that pretty much just weren’t really interested. They had a job. They didn’t even participate to go to that stuff. My mom was busy and she was out there. But I know a lot of the people they didn’t—if it benefited them, okay, they said, oh, yeah, this is great. But they didn’t go and push that. It was only like a handful of people usually doing it. Franklin: Why do you think there wasn’t a broader involvement? Barton: I think most of the guys that were doing that, they had a lot of education. And some of the other people I’m talking about, they were just content to have what they had and not to worry about what someone else didn’t have. My mom, she wanted to see equal rights for the community, not just for herself. And I think that’s why she fought. So it just took that kind of a person to do it. Because a lot of people, they had a job, they didn’t want to rock the boat and be out canvassing for someone else to—hey, sidewalks, oh, I haven’t ever had sidewalks! What am I going to do with sidewalks? I don’t care! My mom thought that was not right, because she saw the world different. And they were just content. And I think Mom could’ve been content. But she didn’t take a lot of stuff. Didn’t like talking down. She would stand up for my dad, because my dad was like that. He didn’t have a lot of education, but she was with him. I think when he retired he went down social security office and my dad said, well, where do I need to sign? She said, you sign right here, boy. And my mom said, what? And a few curse words came out. She let the person know that my dad was not a boy. She said, I don’t know where you’re from, but we don’t have any boys in our neighborhood that’s 65 years old. So he is no blank-blank boy. We got that straight. Someone else was like, whoa! Okay, wrong person to pick on here. But she stood up for what she felt was right, and then she didn’t want to take anything less. Franklin: Do you think that—you kind of said earlier that it seemed like those were the most educated were kind of those that were more willing to push. Did you see a correlation between education level and the involvement in civil rights and equal rights? Barton: Yeah. And equal rights? Franklin: Yeah, civil rights and equal rights—like pushing for equal rights. Barton: Oh. I was going to say, no. Education level doesn’t mean that you’re going to be treated any better. Franklin: Right, right. Barton: No, that didn’t mean that. But I mean, the more educated they were, the more they were more likely to speak out. Because some of the guys are probably not too good at expressing themselves when they’re limited on—Because I mean, like my dad—I don’t read a lot myself—or hardly any—but I think I’m a little bit in a different level than he was. But not being able to read at all and express himself, he could probably tell you how he felt about things but I never heard him say anything. Other than the fact that he knew he couldn’t get a job because he voted for the wrong person that got in—or that didn’t get in. My mom, she saw the world a little bit different, because with her life experiences and things I think that—like I said, she had some college and she saw what could happen. She just didn’t put up with a lot of stuff. She would go and fight for better conditions. Franklin: Yeah. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Barton: Like I tell my kids, I said, getting an education is big for us. We wanted want our kids to get a good education. And I said, the more education you get, I said, you’ll make more and you might get treated better, because you’re at that level, and you just always try to be the best. Am I answering that correctly? Did I get off a tangent again, I have to be careful. Franklin: No, no, no. It’s one of those questions that doesn’t have a right or wrong answer. Barton: But I just think that if you get an education, then your life’s going to be a whole lot better. Because the challenges that you meet and face, you can deal with a lot more, sometimes, that you’re not struggling just trying to make a day-to-day to live and eat and stuff like that. So, it is a better life for you. You can get out and say, okay, if I can’t work here, I know I can go here, because I got credentials that say I can do it, or I can move somewhere else and get in and do that. That’s what we taught our kids to make sure that they got a good start by getting an education—I think that’s the big thing—and staying out of trouble. It’s like, if you wanted to—out of Hanford where they pay you well for this area, you don’t want to have anything on your record. If you get arrested and you go out there and it shows up on your record, you’re not going to even get hired. You can forget it. Because you have to have the clearance. I think it’s even more so, because it’s not only the record, but they— When I left, they would come in and say, okay, we’re going to run your credit score. I go, what? The guy ran mine and he said, yours is better than mine! I said, well, I guess that’s a good thing, huh? [LAUGHTER] Probably you shouldn’t run mine anymore then. But they look at stuff like that, what kind of person you might be, would you be willing to accept a bribe or something like that, or would you give a secret up because you’re struggling? They want to just know all your background, we would get fingerprinted, we would get all of that done. If we get in trouble, you got to call them and let them know if you got arrested, and depending on the severity of your crime whether you’re going to be working or not. Franklin: Wow. Barton: Yeah, so, you just keep your nose clean and work hard if you want to move up the ladder. It’s not that way in every case, but it’s a little bit harder because some of the things—like in the trades, you just can’t go out there and say, okay, I’m going to move into this job without going to school for it. You have to go to school. But once you get out there and you know what’s going on, it’s likely if you just do your job and do it well and stay out of trouble, you can do okay. That’s kind of—I don’t know. I don’t know if I knew my job very well, but I knew how to play the system enough to stay out there. [LAUGHTER] I figured it out. Yeah, I figured it out. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, segregation, civil rights and how they impacted your life? Barton: Help me, babe. Kathleen Barton: [LAUGHTER] I think if it hadn’t been for the things that were done when you were a child, you would never have gone to college and you and I would never have met, and you wouldn’t have your kids today. Your life would have been considerably different because they stopped school segregation when you were young. Barton: Yeah. Whittier was pretty much, I think probably 98% black. And then in high school, there was a bunch of fights all the time. The black and white kids—there was a lot of fights. But I didn’t get into any. I had a lot of fights, but I was fighting with the black kids. I don’t know how that worked out. [LAUGHTER] That’s who I was fighting with, all those guys I grew up with. I would see that a lot, people getting skirmishes. Like in my—like I took some shop classes, like I took automotive class. And the guy said, okay, we’re going to make you the guy that they got to. We’re going to make you the lead in my shop class. So I didn’t see a lot of that. I struggled with my other grades a little bit, but my shop classes, it was kind of a relief because I could pick up on that stuff pretty good and do okay and just have fun. I didn’t get in any fights—one—a couple at my school, but like I said it was with black kids, but I never had fight with any of the white kids. But I would see the struggle. Then the drugs came along and that made it a lot bad—pretty bad in the ‘60s and stuff when the drugs came in and a lot of people just went downhill after that. I’d see a lot of guys, just—it was terrible. Arrests and deaths and it just took a toll on a lot of people. I think that was the big thing that happened. It was kind of sad. So that made struggles a lot worse, because some were not being able to work. So my mom always said, if you’re not going to work, you’re going to steal. So it’s what they did a lot of times. I could count a lot of guys that just took to doing bad things to survive. Franklin: Yeah. Well, Keith, thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to interview with us today. Barton: Yeah. <a href="https://youtu.be/p3iRUDRiS88">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area FFTF Energy Northwest Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1969-1975 1979-2015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marion Keith Barton Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation School integration Affirmative Action Nuclear industry Nuclear energy Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Keith Barton was born in Pasco, Washington in 1951 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1969-1975 and 1978-2015. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/01/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F156ae5a23d99e114d4fc420bc6affd34.JPG e505b5a0d33ff5467de00ab9299817f6 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1d549236d7131465cdccfda6dfdcff75.mp4 c97c0371a3e7620cabaaa2104cade5da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dallas Barnes Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Hi. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an interview with Dallas Barnes on March 22, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking about Dallas and his experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record can you state and spell your full legal name for us? Dallas Barnes: Dallas Barnes; D-A-L-L-A-S B-A-R-N-E-S Franklin: Great, thanks, Dallas. Let’s talk about your life before you came; are you from the Tri-Cities? Barnes: I’ve been around the Tri-Cities for about 60 years. Franklin: 60 years? Okay. Barnes: Quite a while. Franklin: When and where were you born? Barnes: I was born in Arkansas. Franklin: Okay, and what year? Barnes: 1940. Franklin: 1940, okay. When did you first come to the Tri-Cities area? Barnes: In 1952. Franklin: Why did you come? Barnes: I came because my mother came up here to be with her sister because Hanford was going and employment was supposed to be good. Franklin: Her sister would be your aunt? Barnes: Yes. Franklin: Did your aunt work out at Hanford? Barnes: No, she actually had a house and was actually providing some of the meal services to people who needed a lunch to go to work and a place to stay after they got off work. Franklin: Your mother came for job reasons then? Barnes: She did, she did. We didn’t come from Arkansas; we actually came from Saint Louis to Pasco. Franklin: Okay. What was life like in St. Louis? Barnes: Well, certainly it was segregated. I came when I was at age twelve and didn’t necessarily know about segregation at that point. I lived in an all-segregated community, went to segregated schools, and didn’t necessarily know any different other than just the urban life. Street cars, busses, sidewalks and a little grass, those type of things in the city. Franklin: But you were certainly aware that you lived in a segregated society. Did you-- Barnes: In St. Louis not nearly as much as I did when I moved to Pasco from St. Louis. We had all of the things—we had teachers, principals, doctors, schools, things like that in our local neighborhood, as well as the gangs and the churches and all of the things that go along with urban living. Franklin: How was Pasco different? Barnes: Pasco, when I came we had tumble weeds and horny toads, and people were scattered about. There wasn’t necessarily a community where we lived—a community in the sense of congested neighborhoods—but moreover, a very loose semi-rural community. So it was different. Franklin: What were your first impressions when you arrived in Pasco? Barnes: Well, wasn’t quite sure. I got off of the train and the place I was going to live in was next to the train tracks. It was a little bit windy and I saw a tumbleweed run down the road and I didn’t quite know what that was. But all was well, because I was greeted by family and that was a good thing. My first impression was fine: I was meeting with family. And as far as the rural community, there was a lot of open space. And so my very first impression was, you know, just—my goodness, here is a real difference. Franklin: Yeah, I imagine a real difference from St. Louis. Where was the first place you stayed after you arrived? Barnes: With my aunt. In her house apartment if-you-will type-thing. She had rooms that she rented to some of the workers at Hanford, and we stayed in one of the rooms there when we first got here. Franklin: Did you get to know any of the workers—the people that worked out of Hanford? Barnes: Well, yes, but they were transient in a sense. They would get up, they come get their lunch and they go work and I would go to school and so we didn’t necessarily have a relationship if you are talking about a community-type regular involvement—we didn’t have that. Moreover, the business at the time that I came was people that was working and supposedly making money. Franklin: That was the main reason why they were there? Barnes: Pretty much. Franklin: Your aunt’s house was in east Pasco? Barnes: No, it actually was in west Pasco but so close to east Pasco because the difference between east and west Pasco was the train tracks. And we lived in west Pasco next to the train tracks. Franklin: Kind of as far east as west Pasco went? Barnes: As far east as west Pasco went. Franklin: Okay. Barnes: That’s right. Franklin: When did you—how long did you stay with your aunt, and when did you move into your own place? Barnes: Oh, I’d imagine we moved in there may be within a few months, no more than a year. I don’t recall exactly, but it wasn’t that long, because there were other apartments across the street and we moved from her house to an apartment right across the street. Franklin: Still in west Pasco? Barnes: Yes, still in west Pasco still next to the train tracks. Franklin: Was it just you and your mother? Did you have any siblings? Barnes: I had siblings; all of them were left in St. Louis, and it was just me and my mom who came up. Franklin: How come just you came? Are you the oldest? Barnes: No, I am actually the youngest. Franllin: Oh, okay. Barnes: I am the youngest and I came because some family issues there and we needed a break and so that break was out in Washington. Franklin: Okay, that’s wild. What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to when you first got here? Barnes: When I first got here, it wasn’t that difficult. The difference between living on the west side of Pasco and the east side of Pasco is that I went to an all-white school. If I lived in east side, I went to an all—or predominantly, I should say—black school which was Whittier Elementary School at that time. But I went to Longfellow School which was predominantly white, and that’s for people who lived in west Pasco at that time. Franklin: Were there ever any issues where you were ever made to feel unwelcome in all-white school, being that there was a majority-black school nearby? Barnes: Not necessarily in the early days. When I came at twelve, I was received fairly well. You know, I certainly knew my minority status, because everybody looked differently. But I wasn’t treated extremely different. I can look back and see some things that was different, but at the time that I came I didn’t notice anything other than me being one of one or two blacks that was there in that school while all of the other blacks were at a different school. And my affiliation with those other blacks was quite simple—all you had to do was walk across the track, and we all attended the same church. So I did have a black connection after schools as well as a white connection after school, to tell you the truth. Franklin: You were kind of in both-- Barnes: I was in both worlds. Franklin: You were in both worlds. What do you know about your mother’s life before she came out here to—kind of drawn in by Hanford? Barnes: Well, she had an interesting life. We came from Arkansas because there were opportunities in St. Louis. Things was not good in Arkansas for people of color, black ones in particular. My father at that time worked in a packing company—a meat packing company—and jobs were plentiful. He was a military service person and so were all my brothers were. And jobs were plentiful there in the factories, and shoe factories, and garment factories there in St. Louis, as well as domestic work for the ladies who want to put on their aprons and go out and be of domestic help for the white folks who wanted to have people do some house work. Franklin: Right, very fairly common job for African American women. Barnes: Especially during that time, oh, absolutely. Franklin: You mentioned that early on there were not real issues with going to a predominantly white school, but you kind of alluded that maybe later on there was a conflict? Barnes: Later on, after elementary school, then there was only one junior high school. Franklin: Oh, for every—for white and black. Barnes: For white and blacks. As I went into junior high school—we’re still talking about the early ‘50s—‘52, ‘53 or ’54—whatever the time was in there. There wasn’t many, many blacks in there, but those who were there they had jobs and there wasn’t a poverty line per se if you will; people working at Hanford and doing the domestic thing. But in junior high school, I did notice that people tend to cluster together: the blacks who were from the east side of Pasco had their friends there and in junior high school they maintain those friendships. And because I was part of the church community and the other community, I could fit in with that as well and my classmates from Longfellow Grade School as well, still again I was in both communities. Franklin: Were there ever any incidences that pulled at you to one side or the other? Did you find yourself in an awkward position? Barnes: In junior high school? Franklin: Or in high school. Barnes: Oh, certainly, as I got out of high school and as I got older, certainly, oh, absolutely. But I am not sure where you want me to go from my junior high school experience into high school or college or adulthood. I’m not sure where you want me to jump this at this particular point. We were traveling from grade school to junior high there for a minute. Franklin: That’s true. Let’s keep, I guess, going by—chronologically. Barnes: Yeah, the sort of chronological thing. Franklin: Then we’ll return. I wonder if you can describe life in the community when you first arrived here and in junior high, what did you do in your spare time and were there any important community events? Barnes: Mostly there was the baseball, horned toads, there was fishing on the river. I would say that there was a quite robust community life for the black kids. We were living in a segregated community there on the east side—not totally segregated; there were some white folks that were involved in that. But during the junior high days, it was the same. We had representation and in many of the classrooms; maybe two or three blacks in the classroom with one or two or three Asian folks. Still again in the junior high years, there wasn’t that much notice on my part of me being treated that much differently on the basis of race during my junior high years. Oh, there was an occasional comment—but this is looking back as opposed as experience with a teacher or two who might have had—looking back here again, maybe an attitude towards blacks as opposed to whites. But not so much that I want to say that it was a major problem for me. The one or two people there could be easily avoided, and everything else was okay. Franklin: In what ways was the segregation in Pasco different or similar to the segregation in the South in St. Louis and in Arkansas that you would’ve grown up in? Barnes: Well, the difference in Pasco is that you knew that you were being discriminated against. Here looking back at it for you to be on the east side—and as you study and know this stuff—that that was part of the plan, for settling the Tri-Cities, is for blacks to be located on the east side of Pasco. And that would be a looking-back. I can remember—I’m not sure if I was in junior high school; I think it might have been in early high school—of segregated lunch counters there in Pasco. Where, if you were to go into the drugstore where the lunch counters were, then there was the little corner were blacks would normally sit at and maybe two or three stools while the rest of the counter was white. So that was noticeable to me; I do recall those incidents. I recall sometimes when you go into clothing stores that you seem to be awful careful that some of the merchants didn’t want you to try on your product before you buy it. You bought it. You assume it will fit. I guess they didn’t want you to contaminate a shoe or a dress, in case somebody white might be interested in putting it on afterwards. I don’t know, but that’s what I think. Because that’s the way it was in some stores. Franklin: Right, right. There’s a pretty famous case of discrimination where a lunch counter was sued in Pasco. This would have been before you got there, but I was wondering if you ever heard of the Hazel Scott case? Barnes: I did hear of the Hazel Scott case. I think she came in and was refused service somewhere, but I think that was in a restaurant close to the railroad tracks, because I’m not sure if she came in by rail or whatever it was, and that service was refused. I don’t know a lot of detail about it, but I did hear about it and I know about it. Franklin: Okay, let’s see here. Running down my questions. You mentioned that you attended church. Barnes: Yes. Franklin: Which church did you attend? Barnes: I attended the church—the Morning Star Baptist Church. Franklin: That was a—to my understanding, that’s a pretty prominent fixture in the African American community then and-- Barnes: And now, yes. Franklin: What role did the church play in the community then? Barnes: Well, it was the gathering place, pretty much like it was in the South. I understand it was founded by some people who would meet in their homes and then as the home gathering grew, then they started a church. From those churches then we had some other churches over time to split off and get a couple of other Baptist churches in the east Pasco community or in the community. But it was quite central: it was the place that people meet, it’s the place we buried our dead, it’s the place that we married each other, it was the place where you could go and get your spirits lifted. Franklin: Yeah. Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including food, that people brought from the places that they came from? Barnes: No, a lot of laughter, if you want to go that route, and a lot of comfort and feeling in being accepted among your own community. There was always a release, because I always sensed the tension when you go into the other communities. There’s a difference between being invited somewhere and feeling welcomed. Well, in the black community, you are actually welcome; in the white community you might have been invited to spend your money, but just don’t stay too long. And don’t seek to be a part of that community. Franklin: That’s an excellent analysis. Lori Larson: I have a question; is that possible? Franklin: Sure. Larson: You mentioned that elementary and junior high that you were a part of the—outside the school you were part of the white community. What did that entail? Barnes: That entailed me riding my bicycle up and down the streets and chasing horned toads with my schoolmates and some of them owned shops there in town. And certainly as I was riding my bike with them and playing with them I was always welcome in their shops and I was treated very nicely by their folks. I was one of the Longfellow folks or the McLoughlin High School folks and felt that way—sincerely felt that way—by the people that I associated with. Franklin: Awesome, thank you. What opportunities, or were there opportunities, available here that were not available where you or your parents came from? Barnes: Opportunities such as? Franklin: Such as—this could include education, work, housing or social or recreational activities. Barnes: No, we were pretty much—as I still look at it, I think about it, the blacks who were not working at Hanford—and there’s a thing about Hanford and I’ll tell you about that in just a second. But most of the blacks who were not working for Hanford either worked weeding beans and picking grapes and doing some of the field work as migrants. I did that myself. Also—or as domestics. You either go out and go to Richland or Kennewick, clean houses for somebody or cut their grass or something like that. And then you go home and if you were in good shape you would take home a half a chicken or something like that they didn’t eat from the day, you know what I’m saying, that type of thing. It was an acceptable kind of a lifestyle, and people tend to be all right with that because you could still go and pick grapes, there was jobs or pull weeds, be a domestic if you are not working at Hanford. If you were working at Hanford, then you were in a little better shape, because your paycheck was regular and you had a little bit more status in the community. Although you might be absent a lot, but when you did come around, you were in good shape and made sure that the community was in good shape by spending your money in the community or paying your tithes or whatever you did in church and representing the young people of working hard and getting ahead. Franklin: I want to jump ahead for just a second, because this question is in my mind and you had mentioned how things were different for people who worked at Hanford than others. One of the things in this project that we are trying to find is what was the relationship between the African American community and Hanford, and was it different than the relationship between Hanford and the white community. Barnes: Well, it depends on how you look at it. If we were to take a look at the times, if we look at the times, Hanford got started at about ‘43, ‘44, ’45—somewhere during the war time. At that time, things were very well segregated in our country—even the military was segregated at that particular time. Most of the people who migrated up here to work for Hanford were from the South, I think at that time, and maybe even now you find a lot of people from Arkansas from all places—that’s where we were born at—and some of the other places. And they brought that particular attitude and culture with them to the Hanford Site. And so we do know that Hanford was very much segregated: blacks and whites. As time went on maybe down in the ‘60s—this is before Affirmative Action came along and Art Fletcher there in the ‘60s—I’m not sure if people talk to you about that in some of your other interviews. But prior to that, it was a prize for a black to work inside a building. You see, if you had a job at Hanford, you were going to be working outside, either as a laborer or something like that, but inside as a clerk or something like that—I don’t know what the cooks and all those folks experienced. But I did hear talk among the men folks about just simply having a job and getting some overtime and things like that. And I did hear talk, as time went on, about having a job were you would work inside a building. Even as a janitor, that was supposed to be a prize kind of a job for a black man. Franklin: Right, because it signified a space that they had been excluded from-- Barnes: Yes, absolutely. Franklin: --out on Site. It may have not been a highly skilled job, but it would have been one that maybe would’ve been looked on as more permanent or more status than-- Barnes: It was more status because if a black—and during the times—had a position that a white person could fill—not during those times; during these times, but that’s further on in the discussion, I guess. But the fact of it is, if a white person could fill that job and be advanced more than a black, then the white person got that job. If it was janitor and it was on the inside, out of the elements, then that’s a white man’s job. If you’re going to have to put on a rain suit and get out there in the elements, then that’s a black man’s job. And you found that in the military and everywhere else. During those times, the whites had the privilege—that’s the little comment that they make these days—and blacks did not. Franklin: Yeah, yup. There seems to be—I’ve done several of these interviews—there seems to be somewhat of a sense of betrayal by members of the black community that they felt that their family that worked at Hanford may not have been fully informed about the dangers that had been out there or they had not been properly compensated for some of the dangers that they experienced. I’m wondering if you could speak to that. Barnes: I don’t have any firsthand experience with that, but from what I would think about that, that would be the case because that would be consistent with everything else that went along during those times. They used to make funny comments about who was your N-word last year? Which means, who picked up the worst end of the stick. So if people knew that the radiation was high in a certain area, they certainly did not—it’s like in the military: who on earth do you think went up there on the front line to deliver the ammo? My brother got shot doing that, but he didn’t get killed, but he got wounded doing that. If you were to explore the military history, who do you think delivered the bombs and got blown up on the ships and all of that? So it wouldn’t surprise me a bit although I don’t have no firsthand experience on that, and knowing that the more dangerous situation is, the more expendable black people are. Franklin: Thank you. In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation and racism? Barnes: Well—are you talking about now or then? [LAUGHTER] I mean, I guess it doesn’t matter, because if you’re last hired, you’re first fired—you’ve heard that; I’m sure somebody maybe in your interviews may have talked about that. If you have to have a special law called Equal Employment Opportunity, that in and of itself tells you how things are structured, and that if you’re a person of color, that you’re on the short end of the stick. Not too many white folks had to go to school or get a job because of an Equal Opportunity Employment. You don’t have to worry about getting a house because you’re a Fair Housing Community or an Equal Educational Opportunity product. Everywhere a black person tried to find—wherever they found themselves, there was always a special legal permission or allowance for them to be there. And it had a different name to go with it. You want to go to school? Well, yeah, we got Title IV so that you can come on in. You want black people here? Give us some Title IV money and we’ll welcome them in. And if you are familiar with all that, for women it was Title IX, and so forth and so on. And that’s the way it was: very deliberate, very meticulous and certainly very clear as to who the targets of the special consideration was for. Black people, at that time—now we’re talking about that time. Now it may be immigrants or somebody else, but at that time, it was blacks. Franklin: Right. In attempt to change the imbalance, but certainly those that had the privilege may not have seen it that way. Barnes: Well, don’t get us wrong. We are talking about me coming to the Tri-Cities in 1952, but don’t forget during the struggle between 1952 and 19—well, it’s really in the ‘70s—well, it’s really continuing—but the Civil Rights Act didn’t pass until 1964. We had all of that time of struggling before you even got to where you were legally eligible for equal opportunity. So it’s just obvious, during those times, it was hell. I mean, I could use some other polite word, but that’s what it was. In my mind it’s just crystal clear as that light you have shining here. To me. Franklin: Right, and certainly after the Civil Rights Act of ‘64-- Barnes: ‘68, ‘54. You know in ’54, Brown v. Board of Education—come on, all of that. Supreme Court action that broke up segregation and all of this, and so the people who lived before 1964, which was much of Hanford, especially the building of Hanford, it was just common practice to segregate blacks out, give them the short end of the stick. And that was common practice because most of the people who settled or came to Hanford or to the Tri-Cities came from the South. They came from the South where segregation and Jim Crow—we’re still in Jim Crow. That’s how come you can’t even serve a celebrity. We’re still in Jim Crow, you can’t live where you want. Franklin: Similar to Hazel Scott. Barnes: Yeah, that’s right; you see what I mean. Franklin: Yeah, it’s not like civil law passes and magically--laws also don’t—they provide a mechanism for change, but they don’t initiate the change. Barnes: That’s right. Franklin: Yeah. This is a very vague question, but maybe you can think of a specific example. Could you describe any interactions you or your parents had with other people from other parts of the Tri-Cities area? Anything that comes to your mind. Barnes: Not necessarily, I’m not sure if you are talking about other people of color or just other people in general? Franklin: In general. Barnes: Well, during those particular times, don’t forget it was much of any of the work at Hanford was based on a need-to-know. You could hardly ask another person if it was daylight outside without them asking you, what is your need to know, because security was just that tight based upon the work they were doing in Hanford. I did work in Hanford when I was—in the ‘60s—in the early ‘60s—and even then, it was a need-to-know. You had your badges, and your badges allowed you to certain places, and you could go to work in a suit and put your jumpsuit or whatever you’re going to do behind those walls and no one would know what you did. That was an interesting kind of observation that was made later on, because regardless of your position was at Hanford, when you went to work you could have one presentation; while you were at work you could have another presentation. You know, your status may not be as high when you walk through the gates, because you had to un-robe and dress up and put on various outfits and so forth and so on. But the point I was making by saying that is that the interaction with people all over, if they worked for Hanford, you didn’t talk about it. You talked about fertilizers, lawnmowers and upkeep, and whether or not you drove a Ford or a Chevy or something like that. Franklin: And the weather, as long as it’s not out at Hanford. Barnes: Yeah. Don’t talk about the weather too much; some isotope might be falling out the sky. Because you don’t—seriously, incidentally. [LAUGHTER] But, no, everything was sort of superficial but we got along well because everybody did it; hello, how are you? Fine, church was great, yeah, sure enough—that type of thing. Franklin: Thank you. Before high school—and I think after this couple questions we’ll switch, right, because it sounds like kind of more a time of change in your life. But before then, did segregation and racism affect your education? Barnes: In high school? Franklin: Before then. Barnes: Well, let’s see. Coming from St. Louis I didn’t necessarily know, coming from St. Louis and the urban living where, during my days in the classroom, I recall girls sitting in one side of the classroom and boys sitting on the other, and during recess the girls played on one side of the playground and the boys on the other, and that little strip between the two was just a hill as they competed for the top dog in the minds of the ladies or whatever. And then as far as—you were talking about competition, I’m sorry I-- Franklin: How did segregation and racism affect your education? Barnes: During high school, there were some teachers—white—in fact, all of my education in Pasco was without any black influence whatsoever. There was not a black teacher in the school district. I don’t even know if there was a black teacher in the Tri-Cities. But—I can’t speak for all the rest of them—but for me there was not a black teacher who influenced my education during my junior high and high school days, period. Okay. Given that, there were some white folks who were interested in my future and asked me what I was going to do. And there was white folks who in high school was hoping that I could go and be a body fender man because vocations were good. That’s an acceptable trade. And was pretty much concerned about that, and there were some who might have thought that there may be something else like being a teacher that I should at least further my education there in high school. So, I’m going to say that I had an exposure to vocational education and less exposure, but nonetheless exposure to maybe higher education which could have been just junior college. But still again, there was that interest, some of the teachers were interested in my future, educational future. Franklin: Were there any other people that influenced you as a child? Barnes: Influenced me as a child, like what? Franklin: It could include family members, friends or other teachers. People that influenced you to kind of—positive influence-- Barnes: Yeah, there were community members who went to all-black colleges who were quite articulate and usually those people would go to the city council and petition the council for paved roads or water or whatever it was that wasn’t there in the east Pasco community. That was sort of impressive because you could tell that they were very fluent in the way that they presented their concerns to the city council. And actually had some backbones in doing so. That was one of the things that came out of the South, the same—like the people who came out of the South under segregation and was fighting for a better presence in the scheme of things in life actually had some commitment to it. So there was an influence there. I remember there was a reverend in Lakey who was in the community and he was on this—I think it was called the Town Hall. In fact, he came through the community last year. There was that religious group, they call it the Town Hall Group or—I’ve forgotten what they called them—and he was a minister at the Methodist church—a young man—and people used to just gather around him and just listen him to talk about not only religious-type things but moving ahead in life, and just good role modeling on his part. There was him and there was some other men, the brick masons in town, other people here were other people who certainly would—there were other men folks who had an interest in the community development that was impressive, I thought. That I know, I should say, I didn’t think, I know—and that was an influence on me, yes. Franklin: Yeah. When you were going into high school—I guess we’re getting into the later part of the ‘50s—did things begin to change locally for you in regard to race relations or the change between the white and black communities? Barnes: Right. Now, we were immune here in the Tri-Cities to all of the noise that was going on down in the South. You know, in 1954 we’re talking about Brown v. Board of Education; we’re talking about 1957, we’re talking about George Wallace and standing up there and taking the strongest military force on earth to get little kids to go to high school. Strongest military force on earth. Imagine that. [LAUGHTER] To a get a few kids. All of that sort of—not sort of—it did have an impact on me, because I was not a part of that. Now, part of my junior high days and playing baseball on the sandlots and all of that, I was sort of athletic, and it just seemed to me that the folks that looked like me was taking a beating and I wasn’t doing too much about it. Probably like the veterans did where Pearl Harbor got bombed and people went to join the drafts so that they could be part of the action to defend the country. Well, all that civil rights noise was going on back south in the Midwest and I’m sitting out here chasing horny toads and playing basketball, and doing pretty good but not affected by it. But it did affect me. The national crisis for black people was a calling for me to play my part in doing whatever I could to fight the battle that was going to benefit me or my kids or whoever else was coming along. Franklin: What did you see as action that you could have in that? Barnes: Well, one of the things that we were doing—and I have to give credit to the white folks who were more sensitive to this than I was—the ones who actually came in to the black community and educated us on what was happening to us. And I also want to give a recognition to the white folks that came into the community to educate the black kids the tutorial services. Sometimes—I understand that other white folks didn’t like other white folks coming over educating black kids to help them understand their school work and all that other stuff, but they did it. What did we do? I participated in marches up and down the street. I think that was about the size of it. There were other things going on there, too. I may as well just mention it, because it is true. At that particular time the LDS Church—the Latter Day Saints Church—had this particular belief about blacks and their worthiness of priesthood, things like that. So I got into a discussion with friends and things like that, and when you put it all in perspective, if you got—during those times, if you got laws that are going to segregate against you on housing and employment and everything else and then you got a whole religious institution with millions of folks heavily representing the area that believe that your soul isn’t quite ready for heavenly matters. Now you’re really in a bind. Now I’m also going to say this, but it was members of the LDS Church that were some of my biggest supporters on moving forward, too. I want to throw that out there. I’ll tell you, if you want to know what a strain was, it’s to look of person face-to-face and have that person tell you that you are not ready yet to receive blessings that they have. Now that is a sensation. And they were sincere about it, and good people, too. I don’t want to say that there were a big, humungous explosion, but it did require to do some deep thinking about it; there’s an apparent contradiction, at least in my mind. Franklin: That is quite a contradiction. Barnes: It was. Because, I have to tell you, my relationship with my LDS friends was first-rate. But to look at them face-to-face and they’d tell me I’m just quite not ready yet. [LAUGHTER] That actually will make your blood corpuscles turn different shapes. Franklin: I would imagine so. Barnes: They were serious about it; they were dead serious about it. Franklin: Right, it was part of their doctrine. Barnes: That’s what I’m talking about. And you’re living in a community that is the case. You got all these people from the South thinking one way, you come out here and you discover—because nobody talks about this; you have to talk it out however you find it out. Then you have millions of people over here thinking another way. And in both ways, you lose. Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: Yeah, that’s what it’s like—that’s what it was to me growing up here. Franklin: You mentioned marches earlier. I’m wondering if you could talk about those—some details, where they were and what your role was there. Barnes: My role as a young person was just to be a participant; I wasn’t necessarily a leader. In my high school day it was, who’s going to stand up on this side of the issue? Whose parents are going to lose their job because you’re standing on this side of the issue? Or are you going to lose any stand in the community, because here you are standing up, marching and then your friends are standing on the side, they’re not marching with you, looking at you march and all of this because some kid got bombed down in Louisiana, Birmingham; or Martin Luther King has gotten shot; or none of the black are being employed in the grocery stores, or any of that. There was two marches I remember. I remember marching in Pasco and I remember marching in Kennewick. I’m not exactly sure; I think it was the NAACP who sponsored those marches and sometimes they had to have people come in—because the leader may have been in Yakima, Spokane or Seattle. They would come to the Tri-Cities to help the people who didn’t have organizational skills to organize and let it be known that we are concerned, too, about the condition of black people and their wellbeing in the community. Franklin: Do you remember the years of those marches? Barnes: They had to be in the ‘50s, and I’m trying to think if they were in the ‘60s. I think they may have been in maybe the ‘50s or ‘60s—somewhere there. Franklin: Okay. Was there any outcome of those marches? Barnes: No, because they were pretty much all involved with the same kind of—it was all plugged into the national concerns: better jobs, better educational opportunities, better job opportunities, type thing. The regular things that people was concerned about—equal employment, equal housing, equal educational opportunities. Franklin: When did you graduate high school? Barnes: ‘59. Franklin: ’59. And you said that in the early ‘60s you went out to work at Hanford. Barnes: I did. Franklin: Was that your first job after high school? Barnes: It was. It was, except for when I went to junior college, I had a job changing sprinklers and working at the golf course, because I was an athlete and part of your scholarship was that they would loan you the money to go to school and you worked to pay off the loan. So I had that job before I went to work at Hanford. Franklin: Did you go to CBC? Barnes: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you graduate from CBC? Barnes: I did. Franklin: What was your degree on? Barnes: It was—what was it? I’m trying to think. I think it may have been in the sciences, but I know it was just the liberal arts, AA degree. Franklin: What sorts of work did you do at Hanford? Barnes: Believe it or not, I was one of the guys that worked on the inside. Franklin: On the inside? Barnes: I worked on the inside. Franklin: Okay. Barnes: I worked on the inside and my job was to—actually to change samples in the sodium iodide crystal which would determine what isotopes was in whatever the sample was. Like testing the rain water that we talked about earlier, or testing the river to see how much contamination may had been in there, and testing anything else they brought in that need to be tested for various isotopes. Franklin: Was this in the 300 Area? Barnes: Yeah, it was 300. Franklin: Do you remember what building you were in? Barnes: 326. Franklin: 326, yeah that sounds about right. What on-the-job training did you receive, if any? Barnes: Well, I think I had my six months’ probation or whatever that they normally do. And it wasn’t necessarily that challenging. They would pay me to go to school and I took advantage of that. And, oh yeah, I went to school, and that’s where the little scientific effort came, because they was paying for me to be better at what I was doing. So I learned a couple, two to three formulas there, to learn to calculate the half-life of various kinds of isotopes and how to calibrate the machines and things like that. That was about it, there was some schooling and on-the-job training type thing. Franklin: Did you require any skills or experience on the job that helped you later in life? Barnes: I actually quit that job—well, I went to work for General Electric and when they diversified or got out of the picture, then I went to work to a company called US Testing. Because the US Testing got that part of analyzing certain isotopes from certain environmental areas. Your question was, did that help me in life? Franklin: Did you require any skills or experience that helped you-- Barnes: Oh yeah, that helped me, yeah. I mean, I learned experience, I can talk a little of that talk. I’m surprised I’m able to recall that right now. But it did, it gave me a lot of confidence. The thing about the scientific community, either you’re right or wrong, and if you want your job, you’d better be right, if not all the time, so close to it that you can have the confidence that your calculations are right and that everything is going on. It was a good confidence-builder, the collegiality that I had in my job was great. It was great. I actually quit that job after Kennedy got killed and some other things went on to join the War on Poverty. Franklin: Oh! Oh, okay Johnson—Lyndon Johnson. Barnes: Yeah. To join the War on Poverty, and the Community Action Committee and things like that was just getting started here in the community. I quit that job to take a position there so that I, again, I could make my contribution to what going on in society instead of taking care of their—you know, doing a pipette and a beaker and a Bunsen burner and that type of thing. Franklin: Is that pretty much what a typical day was like at Hanford for you? Barnes: It was. And I recall a conversation that I had with my boss who was first-rate—first-rate—and he called me in one day and we were talking about where am I going from here, because you could get pretty much stuck in there. It’s a small company so everyone else is going to stay there for 40 years like you, or whatever it is, if you wanted to. He was talking about moving up and if I had any type of talent or been able to converse with people get along and whatever my athletic talents allowed me to do in terms of being competitive and this and that and so forth. He made a point, he said, Dallas, you would be very good at sales, but we can’t do that. Because white folks won’t buy from you, he said that. Franklin: He said that to you? Barnes: Oh, very--his and our relationship was first-rate, first-rate. First-rate. He said, I would love to do it but I can’t do it, because they won’t buy from you. He was just acknowledging that our society is prejudiced and they will not buy from a black person. And he said why don’t you go back and finish your degree in chemistry or whatever the science might be, and be the first-rate scientist that you can be. That way you can work in the lab, make a whole lot of money, but don’t nobody know who you are, you see what I mean? It’s just your product is marketable. In essence he’s saying your product is marketable; you’re not. You see what I mean? And it made sense, don’t get me wrong. I had to digest all of that, and it made sense, especially as I got older and understood it better. But we did have that conversation and he was trying to move me forward so that I could make some money and have a decent life. But he was telling me to stay away from sales because those white folks would not buy from black folks. So be a scientist. Let your product be the best that it can be and people would never know that you did it and your company would pay you well and all of that, and you could do all the things that money would allow you to do. Franklin: But you obviously didn’t go that route. Barnes: No, I didn’t. Because the calling for social involvement was a much louder call, much louder call. You can’t have kids out there taking a beating while you’re sitting in a lab titrating some damn sample. You just can’t do it. Franklin: Your conscience wouldn’t let you do it? Barnes: It wouldn’t let me do it. Franklin: Before you move on to that I just had a couple other questions about your job at Hanford, some of these you already answered. How were you treated on the job, were you treated--? Barnes: I was treated well; I was treated like everyone else. Like I say, if you make mistakes you’re not going to be there too long. [LAUGHTER] If you’re good at what you do—and very few people knew what that was because there was a need-to-know, I had a little small work group and I carried my share of the load in an acceptable manner and I was treated well on all of the jobs that I had at Hanford. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with your coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Barnes: Outside of work? Well, we had a bowling team, me and my other—there were a lot of spaces. I went hunting, bird hunting, deer hunting with my colleagues and we talked a lot about tractors and whether or not you’re going to have a Toro as opposed to a Craftsman. Franklin: You weren’t making that up earlier? You were really serious. Barnes: I’m not kidding about that. That is the truth. Franklin: I guess a safe conversation? Barnes: It was safe conversation. We had a bowling team there at work and every now and then they would throw a little social at work and we’ll socialize and all that and the company’s profit—that’s after we started working privately as opposed to working for the government. It was great, it really was. Franklin: Could you describe the working conditions? Barnes: You showed up on time because it’s almost—it wasn’t quite a conveyor belt, but the people would run in with their urine samples or whatever it is that you have to test that day, and before the half-life got away, you better chase it down and all of that. The working conditions was pretty straight 8:00 to 5:00 and usually samples come in at a certain, particular time. If you’re working at a lab, you had to treat it and after they treat it then you count it and so forth and so on. My job was pretty much regular routine; the variety came in the samples that I was going to work with. And incidentally, I had some chance to work with some moonrocks during that time. Or at least it was in the lab there and I got to see that. There was some variety, but it was routine and we all had it. You do your part, you pass it to John Doe and they do their part. And I’m sure that all of that had to deal with the security because that’s they way that Hanford worked. You never did get to know too much. You always get to know how to do your part and you do it very well. Franklin: What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Barnes: My job at Hanford? Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: I don’t know if I had any, because they moved you along as you were able to move along. In other words, I thought Hanford, when I worked there, you master this particular part then you qualify to go to the next. Like school, you pass the first grade, you can go to the second. That’s the way that it bounced along. Franklin: What were conditions like in terms of health and safety? Barnes: In my case, we had our badges there that it would tell us that we were exposed and we had to take a whole body count every so often. As I look back on it, I thought it was great. Because we had our badges there, if we got exposed it would show up. And part of our job—part of the job with the company that I worked with was to analyze the exposure that came on those badges for people who were out in the Area. So looking back at it, I felt pretty safe. Franklin: How did your racial background figure into your work experience? Barnes: My racial background figure into my work experience? Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: I think that if I went to work in 1962, I’m not exactly sure when Affirmative Action came along because I know that it may have been a little bit after that. Franklin: I believe so. Barnes: Or maybe during that time, because I know that Hanford had to have so many--you know, they want to call it quotas and things like that—I don’t think I was affected by that. I think it came after I was out there in Hanford. And I think—I’m not exactly sure how—I got to Hanford, I applied for a position, got it however all of that was, and they get the background check, they check with your neighbors, they check with your school, they take your blood count; whatever they do to make sure that you are going to work out there real nice. But in terms of my racial—factored into this I don’t think I considered myself an Affirmative Action employee, if you know what I mean. Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: I don’t think that I was that—at least I didn’t feel that I was that. Franklin: We already talked about this a bit but I wanted to ask and see if anything else comes up. In what ways did security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Barnes: No more than it did to anyone else. There was nothing—if you don’t know anything, you can’t see anything. I think that Hanford made sure that no one knew too much. Franklin: Gotcha. Barnes: Certainly separation between work and play—being at work and being off work. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Barnes: What I know about them? Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: Well, when I came, I knew that there were a lot of people that worked at Hanford that was back in 1952, ’53, and knew at the time that they were building Hanford and people were working there. I knew something about when Affirmative Action came along, and it was required that they do a better job in distributing minorities and women in the various levels of employment. They could be employed, but women don’t necessarily need to be in the kitchen all the time. They may want to be clerks or supervisors or chemist or whatever else, and with the other minorities too. I do remember that coming along and I do remember an effort of contractors trying to meet those obligations so that they can qualify to renew those contracts. There was efforts out to recruit minorities and historical black schools, and other communities, and make publications, and black newspapers and things like that—put ads in black newspapers, and I’m sure there were other publications, so that they would know that there were opportunities at Hanford for employment. Franklin: From your perspective what were their—and “their” being African Americans that worked in Hanford—what was their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Barnes: Well, they were pretty much the stability of that. If you have a long-term job that’s going to pay you well then you can buy your house, and you can be a member of the community and you can send your kids to school with some decent clothes, if that was it. It was stable. It was pretty much that way for everybody here in the Tri-Cities as far as I’m concerned. That if you worked for Hanford, if you didn’t work for Hanford, then you worked for the school district, if you didn’t work for the school district, I don’t know where you worked then. But anyway any of those supporting type, trucking and foreman, pulling weeds or beans or whatever you’re doing. So, I don’t think it was much more different than regular flow of life in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: Hm, okay. I want to switch now to kind of talking about civil rights activities, Hanford and the Tri-Cities, and then by extension some of your work in the War on Poverty. What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Barnes: Still again, getting more people to be at the various levels of employment out at Hanford was a big issue. When Affirmative Action came along, we wanted better representation on the jobs in different fields. We wanted some professional blacks working at Hanford, some chemists, some physicists, some business people, some clerks and secretaries or whatever it was. We didn’t necessarily want to be relegated to the cleaning crew out there at Hanford, whether it would be outside or inside. I do recall that there was an effort to get more professional people there and the same was true in the school districts too. Franklin: What about any living conditions issues? Did that play into the civil rights efforts here? Barnes: Well, there is always—and I still think and hear rumors that there are certain communities that you’re not welcomed; people don’t even advertise some homes because they want to be selective to who is going to come into that neighborhood, especially those by the rivers in some places. Other than that, I hear rumors that realtors are still steering professional peoples away from Pasco and especially they may tell people that don’t want to live in east Pasco and something like that. But east Pasco as you probably have heard from others that had a bad reputation at one time, and it may still have that. But I doubt if you’ve heard very much that was all by design, by the officials who wanted east Pasco to be just that. Just, where do you want to put your homeless? Well, you certainly don’t want to put them out, down there where the boat basin is. Franklin: That also reflects, too, on things like redlining and the Fair Housing Authority and things like that-- Barnes: All of that. Franklin: --that created segregation in all of our major cities. Barnes: We were concerned at one time about having police representation—I mean some minority representation, black in particular, on the police force there Pasco since blacks represented a good sizeable portion of the police business, since they put all the vice over in east Pasco. They’re located over there and then they go harvest that for whatever money they can get out of that. But even then when people would qualify coming from the other places with police backgrounds and military backgrounds, there is talk that if you became a member of the police force, then they don’t want you to go police in the white communities. If you’re black, you go police in the black communities, but the white can police in the black and white community. I guess there was just a problem with having a black police officer come to a white household to settle a domestic dispute. Couldn’t handle it. [LAUGHTER] And if you think of the times—and we’re not too far from those times. We’re talking about my lifetime and here I sit, you know what I mean? The point of it is, you still have those at the highest level—at the highest level of enforcement in all of this, saying, you can be a police officer but not in my community. So you go over and arrest the black folks there, but don’t come to the white folks and knock on somebody’s door and talk about you’re going to settle a domestic dispute. Are you kidding? They just lay it out there, some of them, and I think I may be simplifying it but that’s the way it was. Franklin: No, I think you’re saying it really well. And you’re right about how that history’s not that old and what is happening right now around the US that speaks directly-- Barnes: Absolutely, absolutely. Franklin: What actions were being taken to address these civil rights issues at Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Barnes: If it wasn’t protest, we had one person who came through, Art Fletcher. Art Fletcher. He came through, he started a credit union in east Pasco. If you look up his history, I think he was one of the first blacks to play for the Los Angeles Rams. There was other programs, all kinds of—OIC, occupation old industry—something or another where you had on-the-job training and placement for underprivileged for low income or minority kids, so forth and so on. And he started the coop. What else did we do? Place people in grocery stores and if they didn’t hire black we were going to boycott the stores. Boycott was going to be one of the tools we used some black representation in some of the markets. Things like that. And the thing about east Pasco at the time, we actually had a little community where there were black businesses, cafes and service stations, and things like that; whereas today I don’t think you have a one. And if you did have one, it’s just one. Franklin: Were there any other important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Barnes: Oh, yeah. There was some local people. We had a person named E.M. Magee who was a one-man demonstration—I remember that. He was an inspiration, too. E.M. Magee was a one man-demonstration. I remember picking up at the labor hall and because a lot of people I think it was a little bit fearful of the consequences if you get out there and it may make some of the white folks mad at them. They don’t want to be seen. They’d be supportive, but they didn’t want to be seen supporting people, sort of like the silent contributor. That we have today, you know other people—psst—say, I support you but don’t let nobody know. Franklin: Probably—they could’ve been afraid for their job, or recrimination or retribution. Barnes: Absolutely, absolutely. And then you have those people who would quit their job to get out and fight that battle. Because it’s sort of pitiful, you know what I mean? That a person would let their morals—I guess I can call it that; maybe there’s a better word for that—that a few dollars would get in the way of that. And it’s not uncommon. Please, believe me, and I’m sure you do, that money makes people do crazy stuff and compromise morals and everything else. They do it in marriages; they do it certainly for civil rights and things like that. But our heroes were the ones who went against that. And we did have people, we had East Pasco Improvement Association where we would always go and petition the city council to provide better roads, to oil the roads or to put in a sewer pipe so we don’t have to have a cesspool out there in the community, or to fill the holes so the kids won’t hurt themselves or something like that, you know, to put up a stoplight. Franklin: Things that were lacking in east Pasco compared to the other communities? Barnes: Oh, absolutely, and in fact so lacking that we actually had an urban renewal program to come through east Pasco. Franklin: Right. Barnes: To get rid of the blight and all of that particular kind of thing. Franklin: Those have such a long and storied history in America. I wanted to ask you, were you living in the Tri-Cities during that urban renewal program? Barnes: Right, in fact I worked for the Urban Renewal. Franklin: Okay, so it has—then I’m sure you’re aware of this kind of long and kind of complicated history of Urban Renewal, how often it seemed to move the problem around, or in some cases it would demolish older neighborhoods that may have had problems, but it would often result in—there were a lot of failures in public housing or in pushing people farther away from their jobs. I wondering if you could reflect on Pasco’s urban renewal and whether or not it was a success. Barnes: Pasco’s urban renewal—and, in fact, I served as the relocation officer there for a while—you would come in and you demolished the houses and then you would either find them another place to stay or to help them build a house or something like that after they were compensated for that. And at that time Fair Housing and all of that was at play as well. Certainly, the east Pasco community got broken up with urban renewal, people left the area, people moved to the west side of Pasco. I guess they considered that an upgrade—and it would be, the streets were paved and everything else. But Urban Renewal came through east Pasco and paved some of the streets; they had a rehab program where they actually would take some of the houses that were structurally sound and give people either grants or loan to fix them up. So we had some improvement there, then we had some builders to come in and build some low income housing and things like that. In Pasco, I think that the urban renewal had its advantages for that one little section that they did, but when blacks moved out then white flight begin. Franklin: One of the other legacies of Urban Renewal. Barnes: Yeah, you see, because as soon as black people move in—you know, they could always have one, but then there is a critical mass. And I forgot the ratio, but it’s out there in the literature somewhere, that if you get too many then the property values are expected to go down. You had—if you recall Lewis Street, south of Lewis is where the renewal took place the most, and some of the people wanted to move into the north side of that. And then you have the white flight to move out and blacks took over some of that at that particular time. And then there was an occasional one close to the tracks. Not farther west, but closer to the tracks, a little bit further than it was when I first moved to Pasco. Franklin: Thank you. What were some notable successes of the civil rights efforts in the Tri-Cities? Barnes: Certainly, we saw an influx during that one time of more professional black people coming in. Because I think once Hanford and GE, and DuPont, and—I forgot them—ARCO, or some of those large contractors got out of the picture and we did more diversification. Companies made an effort to go and get people of color—blacks that I’m making reference to—and did a lot of recruiting. So we actually brought more black people to the community to work at Hanford and that built the community, too, because that built integration in the communities. You still had your need-to-know and things like that and if you really wanted to sit down, laugh out loud, you’d get the hush-hush. If you really wanted to get down and laugh loud, then you had to find a little cluster minority folks where you can do that. So one of those successes was that we brought more people into the area as supposed to laborers like we did when we were building Hanford. The second part of that is that when it was required and Title IV, and all of that, where school districts and other entities got money for hiring people of color, we actually had a black superintendent in Pasco named Dave Hill—superintendent of schools—and we had principals, and teachers. The people of color—predominantly black during the time that I’m talking about, as opposed to Hispanics, which is predominantly now—they had more role models. You actually can say that I actually had a black person to contribute to my formal education. I don’t even think too many white folks these days can say that, because I don’t see that many blacks present in our school districts now as I did at that one time, if you see what I’m saying. Franklin: I do. As a direct result of these civil rights laws, you’re saying that in the ‘60s and ‘70s-- Barnes: You actually had and affirmative effort on the parts of school districts and contractors to go and get people so that they can meet what you may call—I don’t want to call them quotas--but anyway, so you could show there is a good faith effort to make your workforce reflect the society that’s paying the bills, like tax payers. Franklin: Right. Barnes: That type of thing. So we saw that. You don’t see that now—I don’t see that now and I’m not looking closely as I did at one time. But I don’t see representation of black teachers in the school districts. And it’s problematic, because we’ve got a whole bunch of problems as a result of no role models in the community. And I don’t see the commitment on the part of school districts to do that as I did at that one time that they actually made an effort to do it. Franklin: That’s really interesting. I don’t want to get too off-topic, but I’ve done some research into this area, and it seems schools now schools are more segregated than they were in the ‘70s or ‘80s because of the ongoing white flight. But it seems like the attention has shifted from that—it seems like maybe many had thought we had done enough effort or kind of structurally solved this problem, and it’s really faded. But things are worse now than they were then and that’s only getting worse as suburbanization and white flight continues. Barnes: That’s right and I’m going to say that it is based on a conscientious efforts on the part of the people who is doing the flighting to do it. Because once the problem has come to their attention—it’s almost like the Civil Rights Movement itself--all of these advances or gains that I just got through talking about is with the white community being caught off guard. And so there was a pacification period that resulted in Title IX, title this, that, and so on, until, like a chess game, you organize your pieces and then you get what we got right now. Franklin: Yeah. That’s a really poignant way of looking at it. Barnes: Well—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: You just call ‘em the way you see ‘em, right Barnes: You asked me to call it as I see it— Franklin: I want you to. Barnes: --and that’s the way I see it. And, you know, we are advanced we got all kinds of techniques to get the message out and we also got all kind of techniques to subvert efforts that we don’t want around and people. Franklin: What were some of these challenges in civil rights efforts in this area? Barnes: In this area? Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: Mainly to get people to—well, number one to recognize we have a problem because a lot of people live in a state of denial. They say if you work hard and all that kind of stuff that you’ll get ahead and be rewarded your due. That’s not true in my experience, and in my exploration of looking for it to be true. It is not true. Hard work don’t necessarily get that. I think we are—we talk in terms of political correctness—but I think politics have contaminated honest efforts on the part of good people. I think there’s a lot of good people that got cast to the side. If you talk a lot of civil rights talk and equality talk, I don’t think that that’s a popular conversation this days. Franklin: No, I would I agree with you. It seems to be very divisive in our political climate and there’s a group of—a large constellation of people who are opposed—I think opposed to that and want things to be merit-based. Barnes: They call it merit-based, but as we-- Franklin: I’m going to use that with quotes, right—“merit-based.” Barnes: Yeah, please. Because I think as we look at the whole history of race relations in the country, there was nothing meritorious about it. You don’t redline something on the base of merit, unless we’re talking about white privilege. You don’t necessarily pass people up in cabs when they’re ready to pay the toll. You’ve seen the little studies that do that and all of that, you don’t do that. No, no, no, no. It is not a basis of merit. During my day, there was old sayings that used to fly all the time, say, I’m white, free and 21. I’m not sure if you heard that. Franklin: No, I haven’t. Can you repeat that? Barnes: White, free and 21. They said that a lot when I was growing up. I’m white, free and 21, suggesting that you could do whatever you want, whenever you want, to whomever you want. White, free and 21. I’m sure that if you google it, it probably will pop up there somewhere. And that type of thing; and who was your N last year, N-word, you know. Which means who did all that stuff-- Franklin: I just heard that on a podcast this morning. Barnes: Oh, you see what I mean. So, it was part of the culture to make sure—and everybody wants to talk about, I’m not privileged and all this, but they just need to review a little bit more history and go sit down or something. But you know the reality of it is there unless we want to deny history there and say that the Holocaust didn’t exist or something. We got people who do that kind of crazy stuff. Franklin: We sure do. Barnes: That’s the way it is, and it’s almost taboo to talk about it these days, and we can see that we are moving back to where we once were. The have-nots are the have-nots again, and they’re very well-complected. And the haves are pretty much white. Franklin: Yeah. How did the larger, national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts in Hanford and the Tri-Cities? Barnes: How did the larger Civil Rights did it? People came here with different attitudes, and people don’t want necessarily to bring the problems—the national problems to this locality—and they don’t want to bring them by keeping the people of color out of this locality, that’s the way I see it. This is fine, and I’m sure that as you explore the literature, you’ll find that the Northwest is supposed to be where the white folks are supposed to take over this part of the country. So you got all of your posse groups up in north Idaho and Western Washington, up there close to the Canadian Border and all that other kind of stuff. You know, we’re pretty heavily represented from Portland here, with white supremacists or whatever you want to call these people with, now, it’s-all-right-to-be-white publications floating around in the community and that type of thing. The national scene—that’s what the national scene is now as I see it. I actually would say that we actually had a better time in history, where people got along a heck of a lot better than we do right now. The question is why is that so? And I’m saying it’s because the people of ill will have maneuvered the pieces like you do on a chess board to make it that way. Franklin: Hmm. What was different about the civil rights effort here, if anything, than compared to the national civil rights effort? Barnes: Well, the civil rights effort here was that it had its heyday and then people let that fade away. There is no replacement; there’s no recruitment; there’s not even hardly a discussion. If you take a look at it, we have gone from Black History Month, Native American, women this, to this thing that we call diversity. Diversity dilutes any particular concentrated effort. That’s why we use it. Because in a diluted state, you have no power—or you have less power, less impetus. You know, we’re going to have one day and we are going to have spaghetti for the Italian and, you know what I mean, some chicken for blacks, some Spanish food for the Hispanics and something like that and we’re going to do it all in one day. Well, that’s not what that’s all about. We have that particular thing every day. What we want to do is review where we have been, where we are coming from and how to make it better so we can keep our eyes on the prize. We’ve been taken away from that. You don’t find that in schools anymore. You don’t find people talking about Black History Month. You don’t see that—you don’t. And that was a deliberate effort, because people are now asking, where is the white history month? They’ve been asking that for ages. As if a lot of people don’t know—and some of them don’t, maybe. That’s where the emphasis is now is that we want to put the emphasis up on white folks. Franklin: Just last week—earlier this week in Franklin County, the coroner posted something on his social media page saying exactly that—a meme from a white power organization. This is an elected person in our own community who was—in the most positive way you can spin it is blissful, maybe, ignorant of that, or perhaps a more cynical eye would say he is more than ignorant. Barnes: You would expect that at one time—and kudos to Columbia Basin College—but you would normally expect that universities would sort of lead the pack in at least keeping contemporary issues alive, somehow or another. We don’t see that—no, I don’t see that. I don’t see their intellectual institutions taking alive—I don’t see enough of that. In the old days, you used to see a lot of that, you used to see a lot more. You used to have controversial or at least high-profile figures coming and speaking on campuses, things like that, just to invite the public out to hear different points of views. We used to—I remember Julian Bond coming into the community, I remember-- Franklin: Who’s that? Barnes: Julian Bond was a very prominent civil rights leader during the day. Franklin: Okay. Barnes: Yeah, very much. One of the first blacks legislators I think in Georgia, the—it’s escaping me—the NAACP, I think he was the head of that. But anyways, his name was Julian Bond, but he came to the Tri-Cities. And there was another one: the guy that integrated the University of Mississippi, he came through and spoke. I was going to call him Julius Lester, but that’s not him; Julius Lester is an author of a book that’s very interesting. But they came through the community and yet even some of the Hispanic people that would come through and give the community an opportunity to hear diverse opinions or to just listen to somebody who knew what they were talking about talk about pretty pertinent issues just to stay focused. But I don’t see much of that going on at any of our institutions of higher learning as I once did. And you have to ask the question why. Not only that, I don’t see many people of color even in our institutions of higher learning so that people of color can contribute—can contribute—to the education of the younger generations coming along. In the olden days if you were going to hire somebody, they used to say, if you are going to hire a black person make sure that it’s in the sciences or in P.E. so you’re not a threat there. Just don’t put him in the social sciences where there’s variance and opinions can be changed. If you’re going to see a black employee usually in higher education or something like that, he might be a scientist. You might have a language teacher or something like that in a non-threatening situation. But not in sociology or political science, maybe, or things like that. Something to observe. I haven’t taken a look recently, but I know that was the case in the past. Franklin: Yeah. You mentioned that you had done—went to do War on Poverty work and then did part of the east Pasco redevelopment. Were there any other civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities that you were involved in? Barnes: Not really. Not anything that made a mark upon any institutions or things like that. I belonged to certain community groups, and if the opportunity presented itself—like this opportunity did—and they get to hear me say comments similar to the ones that I’m making to you, or whatever I’m able to say. But in terms of—no, because in a lot of cases it wouldn’t be allowed. It wouldn’t be allowed. I wouldn’t be allowed for certain reasons. If I were to go into the classroom, for example, and just talk simply about the history as I am talking to you, I would offend somebody, because their religious orientation would say, oh no, you can’t say that. Incidentally, I’m not guessing at this; this is a fact, in my life. I’ve been in situations where I’ve had people to stand up in chairs, to tell you the truth, to point their fingers on issues. But I understood it, because they’re committed to that, and heavily invested into their religious beliefs. Whether it would be a Jewish person think that blacks ran them out of New York or an LDS person that thinks blacks don’t know what they are talking about, or whoever it is. It doesn’t matter. That’s just the nature of the beast. Sometimes institutions want to cut out the speaker and let the problem exist because it’s easier to do that. Franklin: Do you have a specific example? Barnes: I have some, but I’ll reserve those. Franklin: Okay, that’s fair. You left your job at Hanford to come work on War on Poverty issues and civil rights. And then what was the rest of your career like? What did you go on later to do? Barnes: Okay. Later on then, I went to work on the civil rights and I worked for Urban Renewal as I mentioned there. Right in 1968 when things were getting really hot, when Martin Luther King was shot and Lyndon Johnson was trying to pass civil rights bills and all of this other kind of stuff, and I participated in this and that and was junior college this and so forth and so on. I went on—I was recruited by WSU in 1968, because they were rioting and protesting up there on the main campus. Some of the people from the Tri-Cities had gone up to WSU. And there was a couple of sociologists that came down to study the Tri-Cities gangs and poverty and all of these. Because I was there in Urban Renewal and I had grown up in the community, I was able to provide some guidance as to where they may look for some of the answers that they may be seeking. Long and the short of the story is, I was recruited to go up to WSU to help them formulate, or to get them this new thing—because they were recruiting minority students and there was no program or anything up there to deal with them coming out of Los Angeles and all over the place with the attitudes that they had and especially being indoctrinated—and I don’t want to use that, because that sounds a little bit suspicious—but anyway, being seasoned by the civil rights problems—Martin Luther King had gotten shot, Malcom X had gotten killed, the literature was pretty heavy into how bad we were treated, and all of that. Not only that, there was some other people that got killed, the kids got blown up in Birmingham and all of this. WSU was up there with the community that was fighting with the fraternities and blacks and all of this. So I was recruited at WSU to be part of a program that was going to advise at-risk students coming to WSU. I went up there in 1969. Left my Urban Renewal job and went up to WSU to become a counselor for that group of students. And to advise the administration to how we might move forward. Franklin: To better serve minority students? Barnes: Yeah, and at-risk students. Because the program that I was involved in had them all: Native Americans, Hispanics, Blacks, prisoners, it was all right. Now, don’t get me wrong, I didn’t go there in a lead capacity, I went there in a support capacity, to add with the people that were taken a lead. And some of the people that were taken a lead took a beating. Because there was always—at that particular time, you’re bringing in kids who don’t belong here, they don’t have wherewithal to be college students and you’re going to have this help programs and all of that, when we want the cream of the crop. Franklin: Right. But how do you help kids that have a poor education because of their race, because of where they live? How do you help them get into a serious higher education institution when they haven’t had the opportunity to get that kind of education to help them thrive? Barnes: Yeah, but the thing about that is the kids that were recruited did have the wherewithal, see? Franklin: Oh, they have the wherewithal. Barnes: They had the wherewithal and their opportunities to express that was hampered by the low expectations that some faculty members had about their presence there. Franklin: I also imagine that they would’ve, just by nature, faced different pressures than the average college student at that time. Barnes: Oh, absolutely. There’s no doubt about it, they actually had a mission to represent well. Franklin: Right. Barnes: Pretty much like the kids in 1957 down there at Little Rock, you see. You didn’t just send anybody out there, to impress the white folks. Franklin: Right. They were ambassadors of a sort? Barnes: They were ambassadors of sort. Some of them had issues because a lot of them were athletes and the coaches exploited them. That was during the time you could graduate a black college athlete and they were reading at a third, fourth grade level with the college degree. All of that kind of problems and I went up there to help deal with some of that kind of stuff. Franklin: How long did you stay at WSU? Barnes: I stayed up at WSU up in Pullman for—doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo—at least 30 years. Franklin: Oh wow. Did you live in Pullman the whole time? Barnes: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you do similar types of jobs the entire time? Barnes: I did and became—the truth of the matter is—I will just say this—I got myself in hot water because somebody claimed that I had too high of an expectation for minority students. Franklin: Okay. Barnes: Did you understand what I just said? Franklin: I did understand. Barnes: Can you imagine that? Franklin: It’s hard to imagine that. Barnes: That’s right. And as a result of that I had to take my proper place—hadn’t been seasoned, like I told you, prior to going up there—to stand up for those who couldn’t stand up for themselves—inspired by persons like E.M. Magee—if I had to stand up by myself. But I didn’t have to stand by myself. But that actually did happen. Franklin: Wow. What led you coming back to the Tri-Cities? Barnes: That. Franklin: That. [LAUGHTER] Yup. Is there anything else that you wanted to say about civil rights in the Tri-Cities? Barnes: No. You know, there is a lot that could be said. I guess we could get into detail, but I think you would have to drag that out in as much that there’s so much. I have nothing to volunteer other than to say that I personally, even as we speak, feel a similar calling. Although I don’t have the energy as I did when I quit my job at Hanford. Because look at the country. You look at the country, it’s almost worse than it was back then. Franklin: I agree. Barnes: And then you ask yourself—there is no more Martin Luther King around—don’t get me wrong, I’m not even in the vicinity of that. But the point of it is that if you look at the state of the nation as it is in the condition of people of color—and blacks is what we’re talking about now and Hanford Project an all of that—I don’t see that much representation in our schools, in our institutions of higher learning. When I go to stores and shop at Costco, WinCo, ShopKo and any other Co, I don’t see black faces there behind the counters. If I go get me a McDonald’s hamburger, I don’t see people, black, that much. And, if that is the case now, and we are going to build a future on that, then what are we saying that the future’s going to look like for the people who look like me? I mean, it is so obvious that I don’t think people see it. You walk across your parking lot—I don’t know what your status is here on the campus—but anyway, you look around the halls—and I’m not talking about a black; I’m talking about an American, Afro-American black. And you’re going to say, where are they? And I’m going to say—I haven’t taken a look—but my best guess is, they’re not there. Franklin: I’ll tell you, in my classes, it’s been few and far between. Pullman was a little bit—well, no, even in Pullman, too. Barnes: And what classes were you teaching? Franklin: History class. Barnes: See? And don’t get me wrong—you’re a modern day scholar. Franklin: My last two questions are pretty broad and reflective questions for you. First is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in the Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Barnes: Certainly, if they put it in context, they can’t miss it. Because if we’re talking about Hanford, and the reason that black people came here in the first place was for job opportunities, but Hanford was a segregated place. The communities that supported Hanford were segregated. And all of this took place before we even integrated the military of all places—before then. And then this was a struggle in the ‘50s trying to integrate the schools, trying to get people to upgrade east Pasco where the cities had gotten together and decided that’s where we’re going to put all the blacks at that particular point and time, in terms of living conditions; they had the segregated barracks out there. Then if they were to trace it down to where we got some civil rights laws and some Affirmative Action things and we had this little bulging of black presence in the communities where we had the superintendent of schools, we had blacks in the classroom and we had students going off to college, we had a community, we had a representation in some of the stores as sales people, students and teachers and all of that. Then we are not that anymore. We are heavily represented in the prisons and the foster homes and things like that. And we can account for with a little bit more study. We’ll see how that all happened. We had a program where blacks were thriving before we had Initiative 200. You might recall Initiative 200. Franklin: I don’t. Barnes: Initiative 200 is where we had a certain—the Affirmative Action Program. Some states still have it; the federal government still has it; but the State of Washington doesn’t have it—where the contracts with the State of Washington to require that a certain percentage of that would go to women and minority businesses. And then there was an initiative that came along and said that that’s discriminatory and they cut it out. And minority businesses and all of that didn’t fade off; it dropped off. It didn’t fade off; it dropped off, and you can almost see that we don’t have—in terms of state procurement—minority and women business. The women are doing all right, because they are heavily represented by white women. But all of that in the state has curtailed the efforts of the people that put forward. Incidentally, there is an effort ongoing right now where they’re trying to repeal that initiative and get back to where we can have some state agencies procuring for minority businesses and all that, as a little side point. But anyway, so that they would see that. See, Hanford isn’t doing—I don’t think of Hanford as Hanford because everything is so diversified right now—is doing anything. I don’t even think that you can point to a minority community as such—a black community. I don’t think you can do that. I don’t think you can say that there is an east Pasco anymore that’s predominantly black. In fact, I know you can’t. You can’t do that. If you’re going to say the black have been absorbed in the community, then you can’t say that’s the case, because we can’t see their physical presence in your classroom, or on this campus, or distributed through the mainstream or business community that you would expect, having them come through all of that. In terms of what Hanford did, I think Hanford made an effort during this day. But I think Hanford’s efforts with blacks, just like their efforts with the reactors out there: they’re decommissioned. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Man, you’re giving me so many quotable lines in this interview. Barnes: So we’re starting to lose our significance, just like some of those reactors have out there on the Project. Our time has come and gone. That’s what it looks like. Franklin: Is there anything else that you’d like to mention about migration, work experience, segregation, and civil rights and how they impacted your life? Barnes: No, I—say that last part again? Franklin: Related to migration, work experience, segregation, and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and Tri-Cities. Barnes: Certainly everything that I am in terms of being an adult and all of that, for me personally, I think I’ve had a good experience in the Tri Cities, for me personally. At Hanford, it was fine. And my position in the Tri-Cities or in Pasco, that’s fine. I qualify with some of the good old boys with those of us that are still left from my time there in the community. As I look at the future, I don’t necessarily see much of a legacy that’s being left by those blacks who were here, and who have done things. There is no visible presence. If I had to make a guess—I’m going to make this guess, and you can tell me or edit it out or whatever you want to do—I might be the only black you saw all day. Franklin: Well, no, but in an average day, probably. Barnes: That’s the point that I’m making. Because I drove all the way over here and I haven’t seen anyone yet, except when I went to the restroom and looked at myself. The point that I’m making is, that’s how absent we are in the scheme of things. Franklin: Yeah, things are very different in the three cities, that’s certainly true. And in general. Barnes: And in general. Franklin: Yeah. Well, Dallas, thank you for such an honest and powerful interview. I think you really spoke truth to power, and I really appreciate you laying out your experiences, and how you see things. It was just a wonderful interview. Barnes: You’re welcome. Franklin: I’m the richer for having you interviewed today. Barnes: Well, then the banner has been passed on to you. Franklin: Well, we’ll see, but thank you so much. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 326 Building General Electric US Testing Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1952-1969 1999- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962-1969 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dallas Barnes Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pullman (Wash.) Migration Segregation School integration Race relations Affirmative action Civil rights Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Dallas Barnes moved to Pasco, Washington in 1952 as a child. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/22/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F57631c519df54a6d2fcc81f5d77e6f8c.JPG 2299ac49014cf0639a7ca8caa7aa3d1c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe1bbc2468804125f13a953e4d99240e7.mp4 8881b49dab96f97ca7b17982ffb2d902 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dallas Barnes, Webster Jackson and Albert Wilkins Location The location of the interview Morningstar Baptist Church Pasco, Washington Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Dallas Barnes, Pastor Albert Wilkins and Webster Jackson on May 31st, 2018. The interview is being conducted at Morning Star Baptist Church in East Pasco. I’ll be talking with Dallas, Pasto Albert and Webster about their experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record, can you state and spell your full names for us, starting with Dallas? Dallas Barnes: Dallas Barnes, D-A-L-L-A-S, E, and Barnes, B-A-R-N-E-S. Albert Wilkins: Mm-hmm, yes, and I’m Albert Wilkins, A-L-B-E-R-T, capital-T, W-I-L-K-I-N-S. Webster Jackson: Mine, I am Webster Jackson. Webster, W-E-B-S-T-E-R, the letter U, J-A-C-K-S-O-N. Franklin: Great, thank you. So we’re at Morning Star Baptist Church. Tell me about the church, how it was founded, and the role that it plays in the community—played in the community. Wilkins: Mm-kay. Well, the church was founded in 1946. It began in the homes of several of the older members. I don’t remember all their names, but Brother Luzell Johnson, who was a major deacon in the church for many years, his wife, Etta B. Johnson, his sister— Jackson: Velma. Wilkins: Velma, Velma Williams, and several others. It was later—it established in a building in downtown Pasco off of Lewis Street in the early ‘40s, ’46? Yeah, around ’46, ’47. It was later moved to the corner of Butte and Wehe, I think in 1940--? Barnes: Eight, I believe. Wilkins: Mm-hmm, ’48. Where—it stayed there until 1956, when this particular building was built and established. This is where it’s been ever since. Franklin: I’d like to ask each of you three what your first memories are of the church. I’ll start with Dallas. Barnes: Well, I was involved with the church. We moved from St. Louis to Pasco in 1952. And I remember being taken to church, of course, by my mom, here to Morning Star. And I was in, I guess, junior high school or early—sophomore or somewhere around there. And became a member, did all the things that youth did in the church, and was baptized then in the Morning Star Baptist Church when it was on Butte and Wehe. Wilkins: Yeah. We also moved here in 1952. I was two years old at the time, so my recollection of the move is non-existent. However, I do remember living next-door to the church in ’53, ’54, ’55, and I was baptized in Morning Star Baptist Church and I believe it was indeed here in this particular building around 1956, ’57. Jackson: My folks, we came out to visit my mother’s sister and their families in 1948. And we stayed out here for about a month. We came from Texarkana, Texas. And we went back. My dad was a principal in the high school back in Texas. Actually it was in Arkansas. Texarkana, Texas and Arkansas, where the state line goes right through the center of that city. And we stayed out here for about a month visiting and then we went back to Texarkana. And my dad decided basically that we really needed to go back to Pasco. So we packed up and came back to Pasco. My brother, he enlisted in the US Navy out of Texarkana, and me and my mother and dad came out here. And he went to work at Hanford. And me and my cousins and so forth, the only thing we did was rode all the way around the city limits of Pasco, which was not that great. It was not that expansive in— Wilkins: That time. Jackson: In 1950 and so forth. I also—my dad, he joined St. James Methodist Church, and me and my mother joined Morning Star. That was also down on the corner of Butte and Wehe Street. And I was baptized in Morning Star Church. Franklin: Webster, could I ask you what your first impressions were? Because you were in your teens when you came here, right? Jackson: Correct. Franklin: What were your first impressions of Pasco when you came here in ’48? Jackson: Oh, it was the place to be for us youngsters, for us kids. Like I said, I had several cousins here, family—extended family here. We just had a good time as far as that’s concerned. At that age, I mean, in high school, in Pasco High—I graduated from Pasco High School, and it was not that many African American kids in there. I would guess at this time, I would say it was less than ten. We all got along. We had our ups and downs in school, as far as that’s concerned. But, like I said, we really rode our bicycles every day and we just had a good time. Franklin: Great. I would—so you came from Texarkana, and Dallas you came from—? Barnes: St. Louis. Franklin: St. Louis. And, Albert, where did your family move from? Wilkins: We came here from Louisiana. My father was a preacher as well. Franklin: Oh, okay. Wilkins: And so he came up here to work on the dams. He came up in ’50, and we followed, then, in ’52. Franklin: Right on. I guess, what role did the church play in the black community? Both historically and here in Pasco. Wilkins: Hmm. I don’t know. The church was the central piece of the community. At that time, the vast majority of African Americans lived in east Pasco. The church was the center of the community, so the role they played was—it maintained, or set the standard for moral behavior in the community. The pastor of the church really was the voice of the community and issues concerning civil rights or some injustices or any relationships with the authorities, the pastor of the church was the voice. You have to remember, at that time, this was a very segregated area. In fact, I think I was seven years old before I ever saw another white person, you know? Really. Franklin: Really? Wilkins: I’m serious. Because it was that isolated. And so everything that we did, like Webster was saying, was done right here in east Pasco, riding our bicycles or walking out to Sacajawea Park or going out to James Johnson’s ranch and riding horses. Everything was done right here for a long time. For a very long time, in fact. As I recall, probably around 1964, they had built Isaac Stevens Junior High School, and I was attending there, and I remember being in class, I was the only African American in the class. And that’s when they first started putting TVs in the classroom. And they were showing the civil rights movement in the South. It was really a traumatic experience for me, because they had this lady on the television, they were interviewing and asking her what she thought about segregation. And she looked directly into the camera—and you have to remember I’m the only African American in this room—she looked directly into the camera and she said, well, niggers can’t learn! [LAUGHTER] I was mortified! I’m sitting there, going, huh. So what I had was a retreat to east Pasco where I could feel safe. I could feel safe. And that’s kind of the role the church played in my life: it gave me a safe haven where I could always come to. But yeah, it played a central role in the community for a very long time. When there was a physical community of African Americans, mm-hmm. Barnes: And we did have a real community. You know, service stations that was owned and operated by black people, taverns, JD’s Store, and a community. We would, in many cases, because the workforce was intransient, a lot of folks, and a lot of folks came from the military base in Othello to Pasco to make it a little more robust, and from other places, too, like Hermiston. And just for the region, Pasco was the center for the weekend recreation and things like that. So in many ways, we could say that Pasco, for a lot of the people who were here and visited here, partied fairly well on the weekend and went to the church on the Sundays to get ready for that Monday morning work experience, be it back on the military base or out at Hanford and things like that. So if you’re talking about back in that period of time, yeah, segregation was really, really real, and we did have a refuge in east Pasco. And the church very much was the moral center place for keeping us all together as a community. Wilkins: Yeah. Jackson: And also, we talk about, yes, east Pasco was the dominant residential section for the African Americans as far as that’s concerned, but on the underpass, the railroad tracks underpass is what divided east Pasco from west Pasco. And 1st Street, you go underneath the underpass and you go on 1st Street, there were African Americans between 1st Street and the railroad track, which is only one block. And these people, they had—in fact, their names was Coleman. Barnes: In fact, that’s where we lived, on that first street off of Wehe—on the side of the railroad tracks. Jackson: And when we came to Pasco, we lived on Tacoma Street. But it’s right next to the railroad track. And I can’t recall any African Americans or black people living past that first street. Wilkins: What about Navy Homes, that was all the way down the end of 1st Street? Jackson: Navy Homes was at the end of that, and Parkside Homes was just to the west side of 1st Street. Wilkins: Yeah, I remember— Jackson: When we moved from Tacoma Street, in that building, there was me and my mother and father, like I said, my brother was in the US Navy, and my aunt and uncle—had two aunts and uncles, we all lived in the same—it was kind of like a little shack of a triplex, I guess you would call it. It wasn’t no triplex, it was—because there was only just one room and a bathroom. Barnes: Are you talking about Navy Homes or Parkside? Jackson: No, I’m speaking about on Tacoma Street. Barnes: Oh, I see. Jackson: Tacoma and Sylvester. And not very long after that, then we moved to Parkside Homes. That led moving into the ward off. Wilkins: I know, that was as close to the west side as you gonna get. [LAUGHTER] Jackson: Exactly. Barnes: Parkside and Navy Homes was part of the—well, even CBC had some of those particular—started out at the Air— Wilkins: Mm-hmm, Naval— Barnes: Yeah, at the Naval place out there where they had their station out there. As well as Port of Pasco had some military attachments to the Pasco community. So, Navy Homes and—Parkside was Army, Navy Homes was Navy and so forth. And we had down here an intern camp for some of the—I’m not sure if they were German or Italian prisoners, but one of the two. Jackson: Yeah, there was no African Americans living in the Navy Home—I mean, yeah, Navy Home—other than, you know, military attachments, as far as that’s concerned. Later on, African Americans was able to live in Navy Homes. Wilkins: Yeah, it became your first low-rent place. Those were just tentacles, because everything ended up being sucked back into east Pasco for any kind of community stuff. Barnes: Right. That’s right. Wilkins: And again, the church was the centerpiece. Morning Star is indeed the oldest African American church that was established back in the early ‘50s. Two other churches came out of Morning Star, because it had gotten so crowded. And so New Hope Baptist Church up the street came out of it, and then Greater Faith Baptist Church came out of it, as well as St. James, actually, the Methodist Church, because all of it was in one place at one point. Franklin: Were those—you mentioned because it had got so big—were those pretty peaceful splits of the congregation, or was there any kind of disagreement that led to the foundation of the separate churches? And did it fragment the community as well, or was everyone— Barnes: I don’t necessarily think that the community itself was fragmented. Wilkins: No. Barnes: And it probably could have been a combination of reasons. But certainly, growth would have been one of them and maybe—I’m just thinking about the dynamics of any large group, you know. That could happen. But I would say, it could’ve been a combination, and I’m not sure what percentage of the causes would be. But the community stayed intact. These churches get along very well even right as we speak, and from the time of their origin, they got along well. Wilkins: And you have to hold in mind that during that time, there was a significant influx of African Americans continually coming in— Barnes: This is what I’m saying. Wilkins: --but were concentrated—had to be concentrated in this area. So of course the church swoled--swelled up real good. And so the splits—I wouldn’t even really call them splits, so much. Yeah, I guess they were, because you got a new church name and everything. Barnes: New church name and all of that. We maintained the Baptist piece on all of it. And still again, if there’s a death, for example, or a wedding, or any other kind of celebration, then all these congregations come together wherever we go and whosever church we’re at, as one community family, one family. One church family. Wilkins: Yeah, in fact, what we have in the works now—and I haven’t really announced this completely—but on the fifth Sunday in July, all three of those churches are going to come together for a unified worship service, which I think should be a real historic event since we haven’t done that. Yeah, for years and years. I don’t know that we’ve ever done that. Jackson: I don’t think it’s ever happened. Wilkins: But we’re gonna do it the fifth Sunday. Barnes: Something other than a funeral or a wedding or something like that. Wilkins: Something other than a funeral! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Where is that going to take place? Wilkins: Right here at Morning Star. Right here at Morning Star, it’ll be an 11:00 service like we normally do, only the other two churches are going to put signs on their doors saying, come to Morning Star. So any visitors will—hopefully, we’ll be able to fill it up in here. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. What were—in the early days, the ‘40s and ‘50s, what were the conditions like in east Pasco compared to west Pasco? Wilkins: Mm. Barnes: ‘40s and ‘50s? Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: I’d have to start off in the ‘50s. Jackson, you were here in the ‘40s. Franklin: Yeah, maybe we can start of with Webster. Kind of you can tell us, when you came, what was the comparison? Jackson: In 1948, compared to the present? Franklin: Yeah. Or compared to west Pasco. How was east Pasco different from west Pasco? Were there any services or conditions that were unequal? Wilkins: We didn’t have sidewalks or— Jackson: No! Wilkins: Paved streets. Jackson: There was no pavement. Barnes: You didn’t even have sewer over there at that time. Jackson: Let’s see, what was it, the Pasco—your organization? Barnes: East Pasco Improvement Association? Jackson: East Pasco Improvement Association. And my dad was part of that. And Luzell— Barnes: Johnson, Thelma—not Thelma. Jackson: Vanis Daniels, Thelma Hawkins. Barnes: Hawkins, yeah. Jackson: In fact, Thelma Hawkins was the lead in building that building that’s up there in Kurtzman Park right now. But the conditions, I mean, the difference is like day and night. Because there were certain places that black people could not go after a certain time. Like Kennewick, after 6:00 in the evening, when the stores close, you couldn’t—there were none allowed in Kennewick. And I’m not speaking about what I heard, or what Pastor Wilkins or Dallas Barnes is saying. I didn’t hear it from them. Wilkins: We know that. Jackson: I myself was—and two other friends. We were only youngsters, 16, 17 years old. But was turned around by the police in Kennewick. There used to be a green bridge across the Columbia River from Pasco to Kennewick. If we dropped off the Kennewick side of the bridge, the police turned the red light on, followed us around the curve there and pulled us over and said, the stores are closed. You have no business in Kennewick, so turn around and go right back across that bridge. And naturally, we obeyed his commands. But I must say that we didn’t stay in Pasco very long, because we turned around and went right back to Kennewick. [LAUGHTER] Wilkins: Yeah, but would you say that in terms of just things like street lights and paved roads, that there was a distinct difference between east Pasco and west Pasco? Jackson: Correct, correct. Wilkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Parks. Didn’t really have any until we— Barnes: We didn’t have until we built Kurtzman Park. Wilkins: Until we built Kurtzman Park. Franklin: Right, and the community built that park. Wilkins: The community built. Barnes: Right, the community built. Kurtzman donated the land, and the community helped go seed it and so forth and so on. Wilkins: Yeah, so when you asked the question, what was the difference between east Pasco and west Pasco, on the landscape side, you know, there were very few amenities in east Pasco. Barnes: Right. There was no sewer here. I think if you look at the Urban Renewal record of the kinds of buildings that was being demolished and the kind of relocation that took place, you’ll find that we had trailers that had little attachments to them to make them two-bedrooms, those travel trailers. You had outhouses, water faucets on the outside of buildings and things like that—on some of the buildings, not all of them of course. But you did have a blighted area. And east Pasco was totally, totally neglected. And it was set aside like that. Now, we talked about the cows over there, that I had forgotten it was over there, but you got that toxic dump right over on the other side. Wilkins: Oh, yeah! The dump was on the other— [LAUGHTER] Barnes: So I don’t want to put it in the harshest terms, but if we’re pressed for time, all of the debris and the trash in the minds of some city officials and whoever else the planners were, put the people who they considered a little less valuable as well as the livestock and the toxic trash all in the same category, and we called that east Pasco. Now, on the other side of town, when I lived over there? We had paved roads, we had segregated lunch counters over there, and many of the people who worked there, they weren’t working at Hanford; they worked as domestic or field hands. Like picking potatoes and weeding beans. I’m talking about, there were black work crews in those days that would get up early in the morning and go out and weed farmers’ beans or—I remember Charles, you know, he drove that tractor for I don’t know how long, and did all kinds of farm work before it became more mechanized and things like that. So that’s what east Pasco was back in the early ‘50s as I recall. And mid-‘50s and even later than that. Even the late ‘50s. And ‘60s. Wilkins: Early ‘60s. Barnes: And the ‘60s. Everything that Pasco got was a product of advocacy on the part of his dad, his dad, and other people who came from the South with education. The ministers of the church played an active role; they always were the voice for the community. And if they were not, they certainly was a very, very close second of someone who was more articulate or had expertise on that issue. But the pastor of the church rallied the members, who was the community, to go down and to petition the city for paved roads, running water, better policing if it took that, better employment consideration over there, and that type of thing. Wilkins: Yeah. The church played a pretty central role in that. Barnes; Very, very, very much. Wilkins: Because I recall my father, Reverend Bill Wilkins, was—I think he was the first African American city councilman? I think he was the first. Barnes: I think, he may—yeah. Wilkins: Advocated quite a bit for the community in a lot of different ways. But, yes, the church has been around for a good long time, and it’s only had five pastors. I’m the fifth, actually. Which is a testament to something. You know. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but when we look around and see how pastors go through various churches and you see the longevity that they have here. That speaks of some kind of unity. But yeah. Franklin: Dallas, you mentioned Albert and Webster’s fathers. I’d like to ask each of you about your dads, or your parents and their experiences before coming here. I’ll start with Albert. Because, Dallas, you said that they were educated. Barnes: Well, they were the spokespeople. I remember them very well facing the, if you will, powers to be. But they were men who stood tall in the community during those days. Franklin: Great. So, Albert, you said your family came from Louisiana. Wilkins: They did, they did. My father, like I said, was a Baptist preacher. The reason he came, I said, was because he went to work on the dams, which was true. But the real reason he came to Washington was because he had married a black man to a white woman. And the woman was the sheriff’s daughter, and they were going to hang my dad. Franklin: He had done this in Louisiana? Wilkins: He had done that in Louisiana. So, late in the midnight hour, everybody put money together and sent him to Washington. Franklin: Oh, wow. Wilkins: To save his life. Franklin: Was that against the law in Louisiana at that time? Wilkins: Absolutely. Barnes: It was the law in America. Wilkins: Absolutely. And so that was the reason he came, and then we came up a few years later. Franklin: Okay. Wow, that’s quite a story. Wilkins: But he was an Army veteran. He’d fought in World War II. He was—my father was a man of many different talents. And he was a very outspoken man. Barnes: Yes, he was. Jackson: Yes, he was. Wilkins: So yes. Franklin: What do you know about his initial experience in coming to work at Hanford and finding a place to live here? Wilkins: Well, my father never actually worked at Hanford until later in his life. His major work was on the dams. Franklin: Oh, right, right. Wilkins: Mm-hmm, was on the dams. That’s what I recall. But my father was also a mortician and he would help sometimes with the mortician work here at Greenlee Funeral Home back then. Yes. And he was a carpenter as well. But mostly, he was a preacher. Jackson: And he—in fact, Reverend Bill Wilkins, we worked at—I was working at Hanford and my office was in downtown Pasco. Actually, we were in the Federal Building. And Reverend Wilkins, he worked there at the same time. Wilkins: And they carpooled there. Jackson: He was in charge of the carpool. Franklin: In Richland? The Federal Building in Richland. Jackson: The Federal Building, you know, where people come to check out—visitors come in from other states and so forth, and they would check the cars out from the carpool. There was one right there at the west side of the Federal Building. Franklin: Right. And, Webster, you mentioned that your family came from Texarkana. Jackson: We came to Pasco from Texarkana. Texas, over on the Texas side. Franklin: Right. What do you know about your parents’ lives before they came here? Jackson: Oh, everything. Well, like I said, my dad was a principal of a school down there. Also, he did what people do in the South. He cut logs and this type of thing—I think they called billets, little short—harvest logs and this type of thing to make ends meet. Farmed. Just did everything. Pretty well-rounded as far as the South. I mean, that’s what African Americans did down there. Barnes: You got to realize that Jim Crow didn’t end until ’64 now, so, we’re talking about back in the ‘40s, you walked on your side of the sidewalk, you said, yes, ma’am to little girls and all that kind of stuff, and you ran from the Ku Klux Klan like you had better do if you want to— Wilkins: Live. [LAUGHTER] Barnes: --Survive, yeah. And so you had that kind of thing and the people who came to Washington came with that same kind of ideology and that’s how come we had to had an east Pasco and you couldn’t go to Kennewick over here or Pasco over there or whatever you have, because the culture came here and is still with us, the remnants of it. Franklin: Yeah. How did your father hear about Pasco and why did he choose to move the family up? Jackson: Like I said, my mother’s sister—she had two sisters here on the west coast. They lived in Portland and they worked and they lived in Vanport in Portland, and they worked in the shipyards. They left the shipyards and moved to Pasco in order to work at Hanford. That’s where we visited them here in Pasco. Like I said, we stayed out here for about a month. Him talking to my folks, mom and dad, and talking with their mom’s sister and their husbands and this type of thing, and they were working at Hanford, so it seemed to be a better deal. We wasn’t getting anything and getting it aware down South. So we moved out here, and my dad went to work for, I believe it was JA Jones. Franklin: JA Jones Construction? Jackson: Right, but at Hanford. And my mother worked in—and her sisters, all three of them, they worked in, oh, heck, downtown, what was that Chinese restaurant down there? Barnes: Chinese Gardens. Chinese Gardens. Jackson: Chinese Gardens? It was Frank’s. Wilkins: There was another one down there on Lewis Street. Jackson: No, it was Frank’s Grill. Barnes: Frank’s Grill, oh, okay, okay. Wilkins: You remember Frank’s? Barnes: Yeah, I remember Frank’s Grill, yeah, I remember that. [LAUGHTER] Jackson: That’s where they worked. Wilkins: Frank Ng, Frank Ng. Jackson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Frank Ng? Wilkins: Mm-hmm, right. Right there on Lewis Street. Barnes: And he’s still around, too. Wilkins: Is he? Barnes: His son is. Wilkins: His son is, yeah. Jackson: Oh, yeah, Frankie. Little Frankie, right. Franklin: Oh, wait, is this—was it a Chinese restaurant or was it a— Wilkins: It was a Chinese restaurant. Barnes: Chinese/American restaurant. Franklin: Okay. It was called Frank’s Grill? Jackson: Yeah. Wilkins: Frank’s Grill, yeah. Franklin: Oh, that’s interesting. Wilkins: There were only two at the time: Frank’s Grill and Chinese Gardens. Jackson: I think so. Wilkins: On opposite ends. Franklin: And were these in east Pasco? Wilkins: No. Barnes: No. Franklin: West Pasco. Jackson: I can’t think—later on, the Eastside Market was the big store in east Pasco. In fact, the owners of the East Side Market gave this church, Morning Star, a house on Wehe. Wilkins: Yeah, it was donated—I can’t remember. Jackson: I can’t think. Gene, Gene, the first name? Gene Wright. Wilkins: That’s right. Yeah, yeah. That was the only other—I mean, it was that place and George’s place were the only white establishments in east Pasco. If I’m right. Barnes: Yeah. The other thing you want to do is, there’s the north side of east Pasco and there’s the south side of east Pasco. And white folks lived on the north side of east Pasco, and there was a few—like the Wilkins—folks who would move on the north side of— Wilkins: Of Lewis Street. Barnes: --of Lewis Street until White Flight took over, and I’m not sure when that was, and they all moved to the west side of Pasco. Wilkins: That was between ’68 and ’72. Barnes: Somewhere in there. But for the longest, it was divided that way, too, in east Pasco, where the whites lived on the north side. And that’s where you see the nicer houses, back in those days, when Urban Renewal came in and wiped out the south side of east Pasco. Jackson: The Urban Renewal project consisted of thirteen blocks in east Pasco. And like I said, it was mixed— Barnes: Commercial and residential. Jackson: A residential house would be right there and next-door would be a trucking company and this type of thing. And Wehe, Wehe Street is the one that divided them. And the fence and the tree grove is still there right now. So the city’s project, the purpose of the project was to separate those. And we did that. Under the Urban Renewal project, we had three phases of it. It was called— Barnes: Demolition— Jackson: Rehabilitation, relocation— Barnes: And demolition. Jackson: And demolition, right. Franklin: You two worked on—Dallas and—Webster, you were in charge of the Urban Renewal, right? Jackson: Right, right. Franklin: Dallas, you worked on the Urban Renewal. Barnes: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So I guess since it’s been brought up, I guess, what was the impetus to start the Urban Renewal project? Where did that come from? Barnes: Well, that was—the city got their contract to—well, you had model cities in some of the—you remember the Model Cities program, a federal program. Urban Renewal was a federal program, and then you had these zones that they had for development, so there was a lot of federal money running around. I forgot the person who—the city manager was pretty progressive— Jackson: Mar Winegar. Barnes: Winegar was pretty progressive in there, and Art Fletcher was pretty progressive—folks who helped to move Pasco forward. And so those folks were with it at all, put some of this activity in motion and they were successful in getting the Urban Renewal grant. I left the Community Action Program to join Urban Renewal as their relocation officer before I took another job at Pullman. But that’s where it came from, and the intent was those three aspects: demolition, relocation and rehabilitate—rehab. So we had all phases of that. And Webster can speak about all three of those phases; I just came in as the relocation officer-- Wilkins: Do you think— Barnes: --finding people places to move before their houses got destroyed and— Wilkins: Do you think that that was like a precursor to gentrification? Barnes: I could say—well, it was. But I’m not so sure that the thinking was there at that time. Because at the time, we still had—we still was fighting segregation. Right at the moment I’m thinking about, 1968. ’68, Martin Luther King got shot; ’68, Bobby Kennedy got shot; ’68, the laws came in where we’re talking about no discrimination and things like that. So, at least that’s when I went into the Urban Renewal domain. And before that, we had the War on Poverty under Johnson. So all of those things, all of those avenues sort of opened up. And, even to this day, even to this very day, you’ll find that much of Pasco’s growth is based upon money trying to do something for the low income. We got CBC out there who is a Hispanic service institution. And part of that—we had all those Title I, IX, VII, IV and all that other stuff that built a lot of gyms up and down the valley. You know, I’m not saying that people of color got their fair share—well, let me take that back. It’s worthy of investigating whether or not they got their fair share of the money that was intended for them in service. But being on the War on Poverty, I had a chance to see some of that at work, and certainly being in the vicinity of some of the politics of all of that, I know that that was a concern of a lot of the people in the valley. But we’re speaking about Pasco specifically. So, what am I saying? I’m saying that all of those federal programs—Model Cities, Urban Renewal, Title I, Title IV, Title IX, and all of that—that Pasco itself has benefited greatly from that. And Urban Renewal was a part of that. That’s a long way of answering your question, but you asked where did it come from. It came from the federal government. I’m not sure that our city government did anything until Fletcher and Winegar came along and tapped into the federal funds to get some activity on this side of those railroad tracks. Because if you’re wondering where our city money went from our tax dollars, maybe you’re wondering where the state money went—I think the state may have done something—but if you’re talking about our tax dollars and the services we got from it like paved roads and streets like that? No. Jackson: Well, there were the—like I said, and I think I mentioned it—the Urban Renewal project was a $4 million project. When they started running out of money to do things, there was 26 states across the United States, we all got together and went to Washington, DC. We met with a representative. We had lunch with him. Senator Warren G. Magnuson was the representative from the State of Washington. All 26 of us made our presentation to our representative from our states. There was money that had not—federal money that had not been released. And I distinctly remember, during my presentation there in the meeting—in fact, I said—I was telling about the poverty, the percentage of poverty here in Pasco and this type of thing, and to be honest, Senator Magnuson knew more about it than I did. [LAUGHTER] Jackson: Because he chimed in and helped clarify some of the things that I had said and this type of thing. And when we got back, he came back and there was x number of dollars relegated for Pasco that had not been released the same way. And I remember—I can’t recall his name, but a couple other states, Kentucky is one that I distinctly remember—but we all made our presentation and got that money released. Franklin: Webster, how did you become involved in the Urban Renewal project? Jackson: I was perfectly satisfied at Hanford. Franklin: And what were you doing at Hanford? Jackson: I was a draftsman. I was a draftsman at Hanford. For, what, Rockwell? Rockwell—I knew it was Rockwell. Barnes: Rockwell-Westinghouse, I think. Jackson: Yup. Wilkins: Mm-hmm, Rockwell. Jackson: Right, Rockwell. Now, the people in the community, they could not—they was not getting any place. There was relocations, there was—like you said, there were shacks and this type of thing, here in east Pasco people were living in. They did not trust the— Wilkins: Establishment. Jackson: --director of Urban Renewal. He was a white gentleman. And he just couldn’t communicate with the people. And Mar Winegar, the city manager, opened it up for recruitment for a new director. And many, many, many people in the community asked me, Webster, why don’t you—we would like for you to apply for that position and this type of thing. I applied the last day. The last day it stopped, like I came in from work. I would get off work at 4:13 at Hanford. And I stopped by city hall on the last—on the closing date to help with the city manager. And he said, Webster, if you drop your resume off—the police department was attached to city hall down on Clark Street here—you drop your resume off at the police department where I’ll get it the first thing in the morning and I will go up—I will consider your resume. And I think there was a—it was like, I think they selected about six applicants, and I was one of those. Lo and behold, I’m the one that was selected. But I did not come to the city under any pressure, because my department director at Hanford told me, he said, Webster, if anything go wrong with that City of Pasco, you just give me a call and you can come right back here. So I just come in and they gave me two inventories about that thick. In those days, I could do a whole lot of reading and a whole lot of understanding and ask a whole lot of questions and this type of thing. The original—Dallas, what was that? In Seattle, yeah. Barnes: You’re talking about the main office there? Jackson: The main office. Barnes: Yeah, HUD. Jackson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the HUD. Barnes: Health and Urban Development. Jackson: Yeah, the HUD office in Seattle. I got to be—we got on first name basis with all kinds of people in there that had responsibilities for the Urban Renewal projects. We got a lot of things done. We got everything—we got all of the relocations done except two, two houses. That was—I don’t know if I should call the names or not. [LAUGHTER] Wilkins: It’s all right. Jackson: But we were able to address all of the houses in the 13-block area, except two, the people that still would not budge. And one of them is still sitting there today. They’re both sitting there today. Franklin: Wow. [LAUGHTER] Jackson: One is next to—a couple of houses from this church. And the other one is down across from Kurtzman’s Park. The people that just would not sell. And although under the Urban Renewal rules and regulations and this type of thing, we had the power of imminent domain, we could’ve taken those houses and forced the people to move. But Mar Winegar, the city manager said no, he didn’t want to force anybody out of their homes, and we did not. Franklin: What was the effect of Urban Renewal on the east Pasco community? Barnes: Well, we had a relocation program. A lot of people—it was fairly good, certainly from a home improvement situations, it was great. And at that time, we had some Fair Housing laws in place and we were right in the thick of the civil rights movement, the 2008 civil rights, no discrimination in housing and all that. And a number of people was able to move, if you will, to some of the places on the west side. We got all 1st Street so we might’ve moved out to 6th or 8th or something like that. We didn’t get out to Road 68 or anything like that. [LAUGHTER] Barnes: For two reasons: number one, I don’t think they money would allow it, and certainly the pressure of the neighbors who might not have been friendly wouldn’t encourage it. But that was one thing. We certainly improved the housing situation, we got some streets in, we got some curbing in, that people did not have to pay for. Jackson can talk more about the final product, but in terms of—and on the downside of it, we destroyed the community. On the downside of it, we destroyed the community. We got the housing project right there that the labor union put in, right next to Kurtzman Park. I don’t think that was part of Urban Renewal— Jackson: No. Barnes: --but it took place during that time. And we had a lot of black people move into that low-income housing, which was better than those trailers that was— Wilkins: Terrible. Barnes: And outhouses and things like that. So that was a product of it. And by and large, we still had residents over in east Pasco. Some people rehabbed the homes, as opposed to moving out, or they had some homes built and whatever it is. But in terms of the whole community and such, we got better streets, got some streetlights, got the paved road up here, and that type of thing. And you can talk about the other physical part. But I know that that part with the relocation and people taking the money that they got from selling their houses and buying another house that was up to code, which was a requirement, and moving on. They still came to Morning Star Church, though. Whatever church was around at the time, and I think it was just Morning Star still at that point. But that’s what it did to the community at the time that I was there and that I observed. It broke up the community, it improved people’s homes physically, substantially. Jackson: And it dispersed people. Barnes: Well, that’s what I’m saying. Jackson: In fact, the pastor of this church lived next-door here, okay? He was relocated over on 14th. Wilkins: Across from the high school. Jackson: Across from Pasco High. In other words, the people, they was free to move to wherever they could afford at that time, out of east Pasco. Wilkins: Which essentially destroyed the community. It was no longer—the church was no longer the center of a physical community. It moved—Urban Renewal’s a good thing on many fronts, but what it ended up doing was causing a stand-up in a psychological community rather than a physical one. So that diminished—in my view, anyway—the power and the influence of the church, because it was no longer the center of a physical community. Jackson: I might say right here, you gonna edit this interview anyway. And Vanis Daniels just walked in. Franklin: Yes, Vanis Daniels did just walk in. Jackson: And I can just see him smiling and this type of thing. Wilkins: He’s remembering. Jackson: He’s got some additions that he could do if you could get another chair up here or something like that. Wilkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [VIDEO CUTS] Jackson: We mentioned Art Fletcher. But when Art came to town—he was the emphasis on the East Pasco Neighborhood—East Pasco Co-op. Barnes: Yeah, it was a co-op, mm-hmm. And we had OIC up there that he was involved in, at least a part of. Jackson: Right. But Art was very instrumental. In fact, he had a daycare here— Barnes: That was at St. James, wasn’t it? Jackson: No, downstairs here, in this church. Barnes: Oh, okay. Jackson: But he was very instrumental in the community. I recall him getting a little upset because he said he had a $5,000 bill when he came to Pasco, and at that particular time, he didn’t have anything left. I bet he put— Wilkins: All of his money into it. Jackson: --all the resources into— Wilkins: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Jackson: --this and that. Barnes: The co-op. Jackson: And then when he was here is when he got the position over in the Nixon administration as Assistant Secretary of Labor. Barnes: In charge of domestic affairs. And what’s key about that, is that oftentimes when blacks get appointment over there, they’re the ambassador to Ghana, to Kenya, to Dominican Republic or something like that, and don’t have opportunities to influence things— Wilkins: Nationally. Barnes: Nationally. He was. And so we get Affirmative Action, the Philadelphia Plan, and all of that had his fingerprints on it. Franklin: Oh, wow. And he was— Barnes: He was part of this community. Franklin: He was part of this community. Did he grow up here? Barnes: Oh, no. Wilkins: No, he was an import. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what did Art Fletcher do here before he went to the Nixon administration? Wilkins: He was a councilmember. Franklin: Pasco City councilmember? Barnes: Yeah, but I think there was some other—I don’t recall what brought him to Pasco; it wasn’t to be a councilmember. Jackson: No, no, no, what was it? Wilkins: I cannot remember. Barnes: I don’t recall, but I know that— Jackson: Something— Barnes: It seems like to me, he was associated with, I’m not sure if it was state or federal, but he had some involvement. But he certainly made his mark in the east Pasco community organizing a cooperative for east Pasco. We had a credit union under Art Fletcher, and some consciousness about how to go about community organization and self-help programs, that type of thing. Jackson: Yeah, that was one of the greatest assets that he had, was to get people together. Wilkins: He could organize. Jackson: And he could speak, I mean, he could tell one of those benches over there to come alive, and it would start moving. Barnes: And you do know that he ran for lieutenant governor, too. Franklin: Of the State of Washington? Barnes: Of the State of Washington, as a republican. And I don’t think he lost by very much, either. Jackson: No, he didn’t. Right. Wilkins: Yeah. Franklin: I wanted to ask about opportunities. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where you or your parents came from? Barnes: You talking to any of us? Well, I don’t know which one of us wanted to say yes or no first. But I mean, you know. If you want to start with—well, I’ll just wait and let you go. Well, there were some opportunities here and I think that was the attraction here, and that opportunity was Hanford. We came up here because money was flowing freely—more freely than it was in St. Louis. And there were some other incentives: we had relatives here to come here, and the job opportunities even as a domestic—domestic going as people who worked for Hanford, and clean their houses while they were out making real money, you’d get to bring home half a chicken or whatever they had leftover plus one or two dollars an hour. Seriously. Where you were getting 50 cents in the South for an hour, washing dishes through the back window with the segregation things in people’s houses and all that. So, from that particular point of view, the things out here was better. I don’t think the Ku Klux Klan was riding as freely, and I don’t think—I think the economics were such in this community that we didn’t have the kind of competition or need to exploit, as you would in the South. I’ll just stop that piece right there by saying the bottom line is yes. Wilkins: Is yes. Yes. You know, my father was a World War II veteran. What he got in the South in terms of respect for his service was minimal to nothing. Plus, being a preacher, and I told you the circumstances surrounding his coming here, it was definitely a better advantage to be here than there. And as Dallas pointed out, there was much better work opportunities here, not just at Hanford, but you had Ice Harbor Dam, you had McNary Dam. You had all these dams being built, and a lot of—a good number of African Americans worked on them and made good money. Jackson: Including me. Wilkins: Yeah, that’s right. You worked on it as well. Jackson: Yeah, I worked on Priest Rapids and—Priest Rapids up in Mattawa and the one up in— Barnes: Ice Harbor? Jackson: --on the side of Wenatchee. Barnes: Oh, mm-hmm. Wilkins: Yeah, so— Jackson: Rocky Reach. Rocky Reach Dam. Wilkins: I think in answer to your question, it’s a pretty resounding yes. Definitely. Franklin: Kind of the flip side of the question, what ways were opportunities limited because of segregation or racism? Barnes: What was that question again? Franklin: In what ways were opportunities limited because of segregation and racism? Barnes: Well, you still had your place. Even when Art Fletcher made a big dent in the Hanford Project out there, as well; his advocacy reached the Hanford Project with the Affirmative Action and some of those other kinds of things. I think in an earlier interview, there were certain jobs even at Hanford reserved for blacks. And those usually were the ones where you worked outside. They were black laborers. We didn’t bring in many or any professional people. I think Webster and his brother probably, because they had drafting positions or whatever positions that put them inside. You know, I had an inside position, a little bit better than washing pipettes and test tubes, but not that much hard. The point that I’m making is, we had to have—there was segregation out there at the plant, as there is today, according to the information that I got yesterday. So, the point that I’m making is that you’re still limited. You’re still limited; you oftentimes are in a come-and-go. I understand now that there are—you’re employed as long as the contract lasts and then you get to go, and there’s no continuity of employment. But back in those days— Wilkins: It was very limited. Barnes: It was very limited. There was plenty of jobs there because they were still building everything there. We were still in the war deal, making plutonium. You know, there was building bombs, there was the Cold War. Wilkins: But you didn’t have any nuclear operators, you didn’t have any engineers, you didn’t have any technicians, really. You had laborers, janitors, that sort of thing. So in terms of limits, that was it, okay? Still, that was better than sharecropping. Barnes: Yeah, even if you’re thinking in terms of when they desegregated the military, even the concerns they had there during the ‘40s, same time they building these bombs, you know, blacks was limited to cleaning out latrines, being kitchen aides on military ships. And so those people brought all of that particular kind of thinking to Hanford, and that’s what we got, and it was better than what we had at that particular time. And so, because money was not a huge issue, relatively speaking, situations for blacks were a little bit better. But if you’re talking about what was the obstacles? There was a lack of opportunity. The reason that we have a law of equal educational opportunity—that’s the law. Without that law, uh-unh. Equal employment opportunity. That’s the law. Without that law? No. You know. And so forth and so on and so on. Without those laws, then you imagine—and you, generally, not just you two folks here interviewing—what it would be without it. We would be in bad shape as far as I’m concerned as black people. We’re already in bad shape. And without those laws, we’d be in worse shape. Wilkins: That’s a great point. Jackson: Well, I—I mean, opportunities really opened up after 1952. Because I graduated from high school in 1952, and I think I might have mentioned this to you in previous interviews as far as I’m concerned, but my ambition was to be a pipefitter. The last six weeks or two months or whatever, to seniors in high school, they take an aptitude test in school, and mine came out to be plumber and pipefitter. And that’s what I wanted to be. My high school teacher in that department in high school sent me down to plumbers and steamfitters union hall here in Pasco. And I go down there and fill out the application. When I filled it out, took it back to the desk, gave it to the secretary, the lady that was sitting there, and that was up there, Tony Osborne Chevrolet is where it was. And when I turned my application in and walked out the window—walked out, and I just happened to look at the window there, and she took my application and put it in the trash can. And I went back to Pasco High and told it to my teacher what happened, and he went, well, Webster, was there any other building and trades—that’s what I wanted—did you have a desire for or this type of thing. Well, I like to build things. I would like to build things. So he suggested that I go to the carpenter’s local and I did and that’s what my career—I’m the first black person that completed a four-year apprenticeship program in carpentry. And it was—it did me a whole lot of good. Get me to the point where I put this floor here, I put this floor in this church. And I worked that trade for eight years. And then I decided to get my degree from Eastern Washington University. In fact, me and my brother both got one. And my brother, he worked at Hanford as a supervisor for, I don’t know, 35, 36, 37 years before he retired. But that’s one of the things that, with this happening, and Dallas mentioning, you know, the laws that said equal, or civil rights law or this type of thing, but at that time, the only place I knew to go to was back to Pasco High and tell what happened. But I very seriously doubt if that type of thing would happen now. Wilkins: Mm. Okay. Jackson: Those kinds of things is devastating. They were and are and still is, if it exists. And I’m sure some of exists now. Barnes: It still exists. Jackson: But things a whole lot better now. Barnes: Okay. Jackson: Go. Barnes: No, the only thing that I’m saying is, there’s a new reality for black people right now. I’m not sure that that’s where you want this interview to go, but our presence in public employment is noticeably absent in key positions. We don’t have a Webster Jackson at city hall anymore if you take a place like Pasco, where we have some evidence that black people used to be here. We only have, I think, only two employees for the whole city that’s black. And this is not a minority interview; this is one dealing with African Americans. And so speaking for African Americans, our presence in public places is conspicuously absent. Jackson: That’s a point that I’ll touch on, also. I went to work for the City of Pasco in 1971, finished here at the Urban Renewal project in four years. And the city manager didn’t want me to leave, and I didn’t want to leave. So he made me his assistant to the city manager. Under that hat, I was the personnel—I was in charge of personnel. During my time with the City of Pasco in that position, we had 13 black employees. And just like Dallas just stated, to my knowledge there is only two now. Wilkins: Mm-hmm, yeah, but you have to hold in mind also that in that period of time, you watched the African American community in Pasco disperse throughout the rest of the Tri-Cities. So you really didn’t have—what happened is now what was a black community is a Hispanic community. You look at their representation in the city, it’s commensurate. Barnes: The thing that I know is we didn’t have—when I came through high school, there was not one black that contributed to my education. Not one. Going through the Pasco school system and Columbia Basin and—you know, we had a visitor come through, somebody like Art Fletcher or somebody from—a guest speaker here or there to come there. But in terms of a teacher or such, we didn’t have it, during—when I graduated in ’59. Now, when the laws came along, War on Poverty and some of all of that, there was a special effort to go and recruit. We actually brought in a number of black teachers from some of the schools down South and from back east and so forth and so on, and our kids in the community had an opportunity to see role models that looked like them. This is not to say that the white teachers were not supportive and good teachers for black folks; they just wasn’t necessary the visible role models that a lot of other people benefited from. And so the lack of our presence was overcome with that mandate: if you want some federal dollars, you better make sure that your workforce looks like your taxpayers, and they went out and recruited. Now, we got that term “minority,” that diminishes—I think deliberately, I mean, but that’s another subject matter—the significance of blacks’ contribution to the whole civil rights struggle and the laws that we currently enjoy, or employ at least, and that particular kind of thing. And all the other folks: immigrants, women. And all we have to do is just look at the record. I don’t necessarily have to do anything but remind you to look at the record, and you can see who the real beneficiaries from that civil rights struggle or black struggle or whatever you want to call it, but I’m talking about where black people actually paid the price to get in the record, those books that supposed to uplift people, and other people are benefiting except for the blacks. Wilkins: And, you know, I’m a product of—see, these guys came along decades before me. Barnes: Just one. Wilkins: One decade, one decade. Maybe two. [LAUGHTER] Barnes: Oh yeah, you got him over there. Wilkins: So they were my role models, actually. I mean, he graduated in ’59, I graduated in ’69, he graduated in ’52. So you can see— Barnes: The progression. Wilkins: --incrementally, how things improved. I mean, because of these guys, I got the opportunity to be the first one in my family to attend a major university and graduate from it. And it was because of these guys that went before me and stood up and fought for these various rights and things that mostly—and Dallas I think accurately points out—mostly is underreported and underappreciated. I appreciate it, because it wouldn’t have happened without that. You know, I got a football scholarship from Pasco High School to go to University of Washington, which might not have happened if there hadn’t been some folks before me, you know? Barnes: Let me point this out. There’s a graduate named Duke Washington who is a Pasco-ite, and he just recently died. But they almost—WSU almost didn’t play at the Texas stadium because of segregation. They didn’t want to play a football game if he was going to play in it. And I’m not sure if you followed that in your studies about the history of Pasco. Franklin: Uh, yeah. Barnes: You have followed Duke Washington? Franklin: Yes, yeah. Barnes: Okay, well, then I need not go down that trail. But that may give you an example of just how deep this situation is. Like I’m a product of his and Webster’s, just like you say, that progression is there. And as we sit down when we get a chance to talk to each other about that, we realize—and then your fathers before us—that we’re their children. You see? Wilkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barnes: We have a duty. Wilkins: Interesting journey. Interesting journey. Franklin: All three of you had kind of mentioned education before. I wanted to ask how—we kind of spoke about the lack of visible role models, especially for Dallas and Webster. But who were some of the people who influenced you as a child, during your education here? Wilkins: I can think of one right off the top of my bat that wasn’t a black person. It was my history teacher at Pasco High School. Name was Bernie Hancock. He’s passed. Jackson: Yeah, I went to school with Bernie. Barnes: Yeah, I remember Bernie. Wilkins: Yeah, he’s passed. But Bernie Hancock, I think, grew up in east Pasco a lot. Jackson: I think he did. Wilkins: He was a history teacher, and I remember going into his class, I must’ve been a sophomore at the time, and he pulled me aside and he said, you know, Albert, I want you to remember one thing. And that is that the first person to die in the Revolutionary War was a fellow by the name of Crispus Attucks, and he was a black man. Don’t forget that. That was the only piece of black history I got in my whole high school education. And that was revolutionary. Because you just didn’t hear anything. Barnes: You didn’t hear anything. Wilkins: About black people in history. Barnes: In my case, there was a family of Catholics and an organization of Catholics, a group of Catholics that used to come to east Pasco and take us out to their ranch on Road 64. Wilkins: 64! Way out there! [LAUGHTER] Barnes: And make sure that we have some out-of-east-Pasco experience, it’s almost like some of the programs they have in the inner cities, where you have this concrete jungle and you get out and the person gets to know what it’s like to— Wilkins: See some grass! Barnes: Yeah! That type of thing. And they used to come over, and they would provide tutorial services. We actually went out there, and they sort of made sure—and there was several efforts like that with different folks from Richland, even from the Hanford Project: white folks, engineers, PhDs, that would come over and provide tutorial services in some of the churches to give some of the kids opportunities that they didn’t have when—I mean, just in the normal scheme of things. And all of them, at least the ones that I know, were Catholics, both in Pasco and both from Richland, and I’m sure there were some in Kennewick. I didn’t keep track of where all of them were from, but I do know that. And it was a concerted effort—they caught hell for that, too. You know, there’s a price. Even in your classroom at the college level, if you ask some people about race relations, a student, at least in my experience, had no problem saying, the only thing that people hate worse than an N-word is an N-word-lover. Wilkins: Wow. Barnes: Just as plain—I think I even kept the paper where he wrote it. But the point that I’m making is that they paid a price for helping black kids. And white people, I’ve heard tales, pay a price for hiring black people, you see what I mean? Why didn’t you hire a nice white kid? Or why didn’t you even marry a nice white girl or man or whatever it is. You hear that when you’re privileged enough, or close enough to someone who will tell you what the thinking is. And this is coming from some old timers that’s older than me. Wilkins: Today, you just hear it in dog whistles, you know? Barnes: Okay, but still again, you have that kind of thing. And thank goodness there’s pockets of support. And I know goodness will—and this isn’t just happening to me. This Catholic coterie of folks that were out to help people with less opportunity—and we had Mexicans and this type of thing. Native Americans was one of the other groups, then. And we were beneficiary. And they would come over here after work and put on tutorial programs. And they would take us to their homes, they made sure that we fed and played guitars. And we wasn’t always singing Kumbaya, either. The point that I’m making is, I know goodness will, in my case, that ranks high in how I moved forward with my education. Very high. Jackson: Well, you know, just one comment here on way back when. Barnes: And their name was Heidlebaugh, I want to put that in there. Wilkins: Heidlebaugh, I remember. Barnes: Just in case— Jackson: George Heidlebaugh? Barnes: George and Rebecca Heidlebaugh and their children. Jackson: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were— Barnes: And I forgot the other’s name. Jackson: Yeah, they were in the corners. You know, when I was growing up as a kid back South, and, like I said, we moved here. Came out to visit in ’48, moved here in ’50. You know, we didn’t—the black kids and so forth, like in Texas, we never did use the N-word. The N-word, I mean, you better be ready to fight. I mean, the black kids—the blacks didn’t use the N-word back there. Wilkins: Back then. Mm-hmm. Jackson: No. I mean, I was surprised when I got out here. Wilkins: Yeah. Jackson: No. We went to—and as far as me wanting to be a plumber and a pipefitter and this type of thing, you know, John Mitchell I believe, he’s the only one that I’m aware of that is a—no, he’s not. What’s his name? One of the—Bobby. Bobby Sparks, I believe it is. Isn’t he a--? Wilkins: Electrician. Jackson: He’s electrician. But John Mitchell is a pipefitter. He’s a pipefitter. Wilkins: Yeah. Jackson: Bona fide pipefitter. Barnes: In other words, we don’t have many representatives in the various trades. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Barnes: What was the major civil rights issues at Hanford? Franklin: And in the Tri-Cities. Barnes: And in the Tri-Cities? Franklin: Yeah. Wilkins: Civil rights issues, huh? Barnes: Civil rights issues? Well, it depends on which institution we want to start at. Education is always been one, employment has always been one. We’ve got a criminal justice system that has never been fair to—in the minds of a whole lot of folks, because of the sentencing situation. And every black that doesn’t have any money have to plea out and pick up a felony just to get reduced time because they don’t have the money to hire the good lawyer. You know, it’s always interesting to say, make sure you get a good lawyer, like there’s a whole pool of bad ones that you might select and pay your money to. [LAUGHTER] Barnes: But the point is—and that’s a true statement, too, you see. So the civil rights is front-end on all fronts: education, housing, employment, health— Wilkins: Mm-hmm, criminal justice— Barnes: Health, there’s some issues there with—I’m not sure how prominent it is in the Tri-Cities with abortion piece being more present in the black community than in other communities. We did criminal justice and that. And I’m sure there’s an add on this, but I can’t think of a single public institution, whether it be military, health, criminal justice, politics, any of that, that has a plus sign on it for blacks. That’s from my point of view. And maybe there’s somebody else who can say, well, you’ve got some athletes out there. I don’t even see them there. Wilkins: Mm-hmm, yeah. Barnes: I don’t know if we have any—I don’t want to say anything except that I do know they’re putting academic requirements on your eligibility for sports in college. And I don’t want to go there, because there’s a lot of stuff there, but if you’re talking about the impacts on black people, or the impacts on people with no opportunity, then the opportunities to use athletics as a way out of their economic situation is closing down when they don’t have the grades to get into college or some of those other kinds of things. So, I don’t want to just start there at the college; it starts way down there, you know? Wilkins: So what was the question? Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time? Wilkins: I think Dallas covered just about everything. Franklin: Okay. Wilkins: Okay? Barnes: Well, thank you. Wilkins: I mean, if you had to tease out one single thing, I think you’d have a difficult time doing that, because it’s such a broad spectrum there. Yes. Certainly, economics. Certainly economics. Franklin: So, what actions were taken to address those issues? Barnes: Protest was one. They have gutted, both at the state and federal levels, the civil rights laws and the budgets for civil rights agencies. At one time, the onus was on the employer to prove discrimination didn’t exist; now it’s on the poor, less-educated and less-legally-support complainant to prove that discrimination do exist. And the strategy is always to carry it out so far until you can’t afford to defend your own rights, see what I mean? So, that’s one. Franklin: Who were the important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? We talked about Art Fletcher. Barnes: And we talked about Bill Wilkins. Franklin: Art Fletcher and Bill Wilkins. Jackson: What about E. M. Magee? Barnes: We talking about E. M. Magee. We talking about Tom Jackson. We’re talking about— Jackson: All of those old-timers. Barnes: --Wally Webster. Depends on how far you want to go back. Jackson: Yeah, right. Wally Webster, he’s quite a ways back because he and I— Barnes: But still again. Jackson: He and I, we were running about even here as far as age-wise and this type of thing. But I mean, you know— Barnes: You can take the ministers in the church. You can take Pastor Wilkins. You can take—if you want to know who’s in forefront, our ministers are still in the forefront. Did you say in the Tri-Cities? Franklin: Yeah. Barnes: In the Tri-Cities? Have you talked to Dan Carter? Is Dan Carter on your list of interviewees? Franklin: We have talked to Dan Carter, yes. Barnes: Okay, well, put his name on there, you know because we’re-- Franklin: People are always less willing to nominate themselves. Wilkins: Velma Jackson? Barnes: Put Velma Jackson on there. And in fact, I’m not so sure who not to put on there. [LAUGHTER] Barnes: To tell you the truth. Although they may not have taken the lead. It’s like being in church. If you can’t clap, I mean if you can’t holler, just raise your hand. Wilkins: Do you remember— Barnes: So the point that I’m making is that—but the spokespeople are the ones who’s the most articulate and the ones who can afford to stand up then and say something. Jackson: Well, there’s another one. I mean, as far as stepping up and taking up the lead and this type of thing, I can’t— Barnes: Oh, yeah, Joe Jackson. Jackson: Right. And— Barnes: Katie Barton. Jackson: Oh, Katie Barton was— Wilkins: Definitely one. Jackson: She was out there, and did not bite her tongue. Barnes: No. Jackson: And would talk to anybody. But Wayne Jackson was a—he was a teacher— Barnes: Counselor at Pasco High. Jackson: Counselor at Pasco High until— Barnes: Put his name on there. Jackson: --he retired. And he was one who wouldn’t bite his tongue, either. Barnes: And Clarence Alford. Franklin: Oh, yeah, I just talked to Clarence Alford a couple weeks ago. Barnes: Okay, he has talked to Clarence Alford. Wilkins: Pastor Ronnie White, who’s no longer here, of course. Jackson: And Clarence is one that can talk without alienating whoever. Franklin: He was one of the teachers that was brought in, right, from the South. Barnes: Right, and Wayne Jackson was, too. Franklin: Yeah, we talked to Wayne as well. Barnes: Okay, and him and his wife. Jackson: His wife, Katie. Franklin: So, in the civil rights issues here, what were some of the notable successes? Barnes: You know, we got—protests got Roland Andrews his job at Eastside Market, didn’t it? You know at that time, I think— Jackson: Those was big pluses back in that day. Barnes: I was just going to say, we’re sorta—just to get a job, that we have to put that up as a plus, that ought to show you how low— [LAUGHTER] Barnes: --things were. Because we had a lot of farm workers out there, weeding beans and all that to get a job — Wilkins: Picking grapes. Barnes: All of that, yeah. And so one of the big successes—when a success has to be a job as a cashier, and we had a whole program up there training cashiers called OIC, when that came in, we were training cashiers so that you could go down and have a cashier job at the store. You know what I’m saying? Wilkins: If I had to think about it on a personal level, I remember coming here back from college, we had what was called the Youth Involvement Program that was, I think, funded by some of the moneys you guys were talking about. And I was able, through that program, to get a couple people hired out at Boise-Cascade. I’m thinking of one young man right now that I helped to get hired out there who just recently retired from being out there all these years. So little things like that would not have otherwise happened, were it not for civil rights. So. Jackson: Well, you know, it’s-- Barnes: What were the-- Jackson: Go— Barnes: Excuse me. What were the name of the program that we used to have? I don’t want to call it a boys’ ranch, but they used to go and recruit kids and put them in a federal program. Yes, they came through here. I remember carrying a group out at Hanford. Wilkins: I don’t know. Barnes: It is a big one. A big one. Job Corps. Wilkins: Job Corps, yeah, Job Corps, that’s what it was. Barnes: Job Corps. Job Corps is what it was, for men and women. We have one up in Moses Lake and all of that. And people used to get a little money. We used to have some kind of little trainee thing, and you used to get a little presence of people of color, we’re talking about African Americans right at this point, because you would pay the employer half their salary, and people could pick up an employee you don’t have to pay, and soon as that little—you know, it’s mainly only job training to get them skills and all that. I think it was either OIC or Job Corps, one of them. Or maybe even both of them. But the point of it is, and then the employer would use up that extra money and get that extra service, and then you recycle them through again. You don’t get a job, you just sort of get recycled and they get a benefit, and that person get the opportunity to act like he had a job. Wilkins: So some of these things came about because of civil rights, and so you could call those kind of pluses. Barnes: Okay, we can put it in the plus column, because certainly without them, we wouldn’t even have that half of representation, you know what I mean? In the employment field. Jackson: Well, you know, even like the federal programs, like Urban Renewal for instance, see, there was a requirement that the cities, where they spent their money and this type of thing, it had to resemble the makeup— Barnes: Of the community. Jackson: --of the community. For instance, for those four years that the Urban Renewal project was going, like I said, it’s not that they were not qualified or anything like that; they were qualified. But there were 13 African American employees with the city when I was in personnel, and each year, I had to send a report in to HUD. I don’t want to go—what happened quite a few times in recruitment. Because on the interview committee, it would always be myself, as the personnel manager, and the director of the department that the position was open in and so forth and this type of thing. And in those interviews, we started looking—getting ready to make that decision as who was going to offer the job to and this type of thing. It was not a walk-in in order to get these people. In other words, if there was a certain requirement for a position to do what this gentleman’s doing, and if there was a minority applicant that could do that, but then there was an un-minority applicant that could do that, and could do that, and could do that, many times, they wanted the person who could do all of these three things. And I’m sitting there saying, wait a minute, we’re not hiring anybody to do that and that and that, we just want somebody to do this right here. And fortunately, the city manager has the last say. Wilkins: So you got it done. Jackson: And he always went with my recommendation. Barnes: I think—okay—I mean, I realize that, but— Jackson: And the employee worked out great. Barnes: Well, you hired him for the job that was advertised, that’s what you hired him for. Jackson: Job-specific. Wilkins: So, there were definite pluses, okay? Definite pluses. And I don’t know how much longer we’re going to do this interview, but I don’t want this interview to end without me saying emphatically and enthusiastically that the function of the church with respect to all of that was to continue to teach the principles of Christian development and growth. And to make sure that what we did with respect to Urban Renewal, what we did with respect to educational improvement, what we did with all of that was driven from Christian principles. That was the function of the church, and I think it did well over all of those decades in keeping that in the forefront. And is still doing that. Although we don’t have the numbers we used to have, we still teach Christian principles in the church. And we will. Franklin: Awesome. Barnes: I remember this church sending me off to college. Wilkins: Oh, yeah. Barnes: With a buffet kind of little thing that included some of the commodities that came from welfare recipients. That’s one of the reasons I’m back here this very day. Never will forget it. Wanted to say that. Wilkins: Yeah, praise God. Franklin: Yeah. Well, I think we are kind of getting close to the end. You guys have all been wonderful. Jackson: Yeah, I’m beginning to look at the clock up here. Franklin: Oh, yeah, no worries. I’ll just ask one wrap-up question but before I do I just want to thank all three of you. It’s been a really wide-ranging and really wonderful interview. You were right, Albert, you guys play off each other really well, and this is a real experience that I’m very happy for. So, well actually, I guess, you know what? I guess maybe that is a good place to end. I’ll just ask, is there anything else that any of you would like to mention in regards to the themes of this project, which are migration, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? You can take a moment to think about it. Jackson: You sound like the Cash Cab there. “Take a moment to think about it.” [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, I love that show so much. I just watched it last night. Wilkins: I don’t know. I can’t think of anything we haven’t covered already. Barnes: I think between the individuals in this group interview and the people that you got on your list, those 25 or 30, however many you’ve interviewed, I think anything I have to say have been covered. Unless you have some specific questions. Franklin: We’ve covered a lot, I think. I think it was really— Jackson: I think Herb and Renetta? Venetta? Barnes: Rendetta Jones. Herb Jones, Rendetta Jones. Jackson: Yeah, they’re the first blacks to live in— Barnes: --Kennewick, that was the Slaughters, John Slaughter and Mary Slaughter. I think you got their interview. Franklin: I did, we actually went to where John Slaughter’s living right now and interviewed him. Barnes: Okay, you got John Slaughter over there. Franklin: Yeah, it was a, that was a really great, really powerful interview. Jackson: I don’t know if he could chip in a whole lot, but—recall his name. And I got him on my phone while you were—Wally Webster. Franklin: Wally Webster, yeah, I’m still trying to get a hold of him in Washington—over on the west side at his home. We’ll get through. Wilkins: I remember him. It was Jackson’s nephew. Barnes: I’m trying to think of who else might be over there with. Did you—oh, I know who one is. Nat Jackson. Nat Jackson, he’s over in Lacey, Washington. And in fact, Nat Jackson just recently got the Affirmative Action initiative back on the ballot for the State of Washington. I mean, he was very central to that. Franklin: Is he from--? Barnes: He was here. He was here, yes, he was. He was here involved in Urban Renewal. Franklin: Do you have contact info for him? Barnes: I do. Franklin: Maybe I can get it after— Barnes: I can give you his number after we— Franklin: Great, awesome. Well, I think that’s a really good place to end. Wilkins: Okay. Franklin: And again, I want to thank all three of you for taking the time to interview with us, here at Morning Star Church, such a central place for the community. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dallas Barnes, Webster Jackson, Albert Wilkins at Morning Star Baptist Church, Pasco, WA. Description An account of the resource Dallas Barnes, Webster Jackson and Albert Wilkins discuss life in Pasco since 1950 and the history of the Morningstar Baptist Church. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/31/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Church Segregation Migration School integration Affirmative action Civil rights Civil rights movements https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F75d4c48e22a823be3c8201187aa8bf1f.JPG 9847fdca52aa3d6cfeb9de442e0bb5cb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbc0ea9d7388e81ef7b211dcdbaa2b441.mp4 c657aa51f7cecbac79024634eabba201 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rose Allen Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Rose Allen on January 12th, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Rose about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Rose Allen: Rose Marie Allen, R-O-S-E, capital-M-A-R-I-E, capital-A-L-L-E-N. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, Rose. And tell me, when and where were you born? Allen: I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1931. Franklin: Okay. And how old were you when you came to the Tri-Cities? Allen: When I came to the Tri-Cities, I was 23. Franklin: Okay. And why did you come to the Tri-Cities? Allen: My cousin, Virgie Robinson, was here, and she sent for me to come and work in her diner. She had a diner. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: So I came to work in her diner while she went on vacation. Franklin: Where was the diner located? Allen: On Queen Street. We had a little street over by the railroad tracks, and it was called Queen Street, and the diner was called the Queen Street Diner. Franklin: Okay. Why did you choose to come to the Tri-Cities? Allen: My cousin invited me, and I wanted to get out of Arkansas. Franklin: Why did you want to get out of Arkansas? Allen: I did not like Arkansas, because I was living out in the country, and I did not like it. Franklin: Okay. And do you remember—that would have been the early ‘50s, then, right, when you moved out of— Allen: Yeah. Franklin: --Arkansas. What was it—I wonder if you could describe the difference between Arkansas and Pasco. Allen: Well, I married at much too young, and there I was, out in the woods with my children. I had children much too young, but I was married. And I just didn’t like it. My cousin asked me—she came in to the city there, and she asked me if I wanted to leave, and I told her, yes. She said, if I send for you, will you come? I said, yes. Franklin: Was your first husband out of the picture by the time— Allen: Yes. Franklin: Okay. So you were a single mother— Allen: Well, I was still married. Franklin: Okay. Allen: But we weren’t together. Franklin: Okay. So you were kind of effectively a single mother, then. Allen: Yeah, yeah, technically. Franklin: How were you supporting your children in Arkansas? Allen: Oh, he would come and he would buy groceries, you know, and things at the little country store down the street and everything like that. So, we weren’t without things. I just didn’t like it. Franklin: Right, oh, I understand. Do you remember what the diner was called? Allen: Queen Street Diner. Franklin: Queen Street Diner, okay, thanks. What were your first impressions of Pasco when you came? Allen: Well, I started working for my cousin the first day I got here. I didn’t get a break. [LAUGHTER] So I really didn’t get a chance to see the Tri-Cities. So, I was basically, right there in her yard there; she had a big house and a rooming house, and her diner was a trailer. It was a trailer. I liked it. You know, I liked it when—I liked it a lot better than I did out there in the country. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Was Pasco an integrated city at that time, or was it segregated? Allen: It was segregated. It was segregated, yeah. Franklin: And where did African Americans predominantly live in Pasco? Allen: On the east side. Franklin: On the east side, and what was the divider? Allen: The bridge. Franklin: The bridge? Allen: Mm-hmm, the Lewis Street Bridge. Franklin: Okay. And what was the hardest aspect of life to adjust to when you moved to Pasco? Were there any challenges for you? Allen: No, I was so glad to get out of Arkansas and so I—every challenge I had, I enjoyed. Franklin: Oh, okay, So overall, it was just a much better— Allen: Much better for me. Franklin: Did any of your other family come to move here with you, or visit you in the Tri-Cities? Allen: I didn’t bring my boys the first time I came. My mother kept them for me. Nobody came to see me; it was just me and my cousin and her children and everything like that. And then I met the gentleman that was going to be my second husband. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: Right here. And we stayed there until the Lord called him home. Franklin: How did you meet him? Allen: I was working in our—her Queen Street Diner. And he was a customer. And we found out some things that we had in common, like our birthdays: mine was the last—mine was in February, and his was in January on the same day. Franklin: Oh, wow. Allen: And that was just our little talking start there. Franklin: Sure, like kind of like small talk and flirting. Allen: Right. Franklin: How would you describe life in the community of east Pasco when you moved here? Allen: Well, my cousin, she had a rooming house that was attached to her little thing that she sold the food out of. So I had two rooms there in her rooming house. That’s how I lived. And then when she closed—when it closed down, then I got me a job two blocks down the street at Jack’s Tavern. Franklin: Okay. Allen: And then I worked there. Franklin: Is that still there? No? Allen: No. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember any particular community events in—at that time, or after? Allen: Well, it would’ve been mostly Christian—church activities. And you know, working in the tavern like I did, they’d turn on the jukebox and people danced or something like that. But I didn’t remember any other kinds of events, you know. Might have been something else going on, but that was the thing that had the most going for it. Franklin: Sure. Allen: Was the tavern at the time. Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about the role of the church in the community there. Allen: Yes, I think the church was very strong in the community. We had several outstanding churches that are still churches in the community. There was—did you want me to call off the names of them? Franklin: Sure, yes, please. Allen: St. James. St. James was a Methodist church, and that’s the church that we all went to until I decided to go Baptist. And then I went to Morning Star Baptist Church. So those were the two—St. James and Morning Star Baptist. And then, later on, New Hope Baptist came, and then Greater Faith. And those are the churches that are standing as we speak. Franklin: Okay. And those are kind of like focal to the African American community— Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah. Franklin: --and east Pasco, right? Allen: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you end up—when did you end up getting your own place? Allen: Well, when I married. [LAUGHTER] When I remarried. You know, we had to go through a period of time when you had to save up some money to get a divorce. So when we married, we rented a house at first. And then we saw the house that we bought, we purchased, over on Lewis Street. At the time before, it was a veteran’s hospital. Franklin: Oh, wow. Allen: Right, and then they cleaned it up and everything, and it was a house, a regular house, right on Lewis Street. And that’s where we moved from going over to the west side. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if—what can you tell me about the housing in east Pasco? Was it comparable with the housing in Kennewick and Richland? Allen: Well, I think—to me, it was, because I really didn’t—I didn’t know any better. So we had this house, and it was on the corner directly across the street from the East Side Market and that was a store that we all enjoyed going to. And then across the street, the school—I can’t remember the name of the school—but it was a school directly across the street from my house that my children started from—the ones that were in that level. Franklin: Hmm. I’ve read and done research that water and sanitation was sometimes lacking in east Pasco in the ‘50s; some houses didn’t have full utilities. Do you recall that at all? Allen: No. Wherever—the two houses that I lived in over there besides my cousin’s place. No, we had water. Now, her place, she had a septic tank. She had septic, whatever it’s called. But when I moved away from her house, then we had regular—I guess it was city water. I never had any trouble with it. Franklin: Okay. Allen: Yeah, we never had any trouble with it. And then the house up on Lewis Street that we moved out of, we had what we needed in the line of water. It was city water, obviously. Franklin: Right. What were your interactions with people from Richland, Pasco or Kennewick like? Allen: Well, I’ve never been a person that had problems talking and laughing with other people. I didn’t try to hang on over there, because I was told that we wasn’t supposed to be over there after dark. So I wouldn’t go over there in the daylight, either. Franklin: Was that kind of a formal law, or kind of like—because you said you were told you weren’t supposed to go over there after dark, and I’ve heard things about that. Was that a formal or kind of an informal prohibition? Allen: I don’t know what that was all about, but I do know that my boyfriend that I married, he was over there, and it was dark, and they held him. He called me and said, if you don’t come get me, I’m going to have to spend the night. Franklin: In jail? Allen: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, wow. And you said over there, you mean in— Allen: In Kennewick. Franklin: In Kennewick. Allen: Yeah, over in Kennewick. It was dark, and they caught him over there. He hadn’t got to the Blue Bridge. Franklin: Wow, was he driving, or was he— Allen: He was driving. Franklin: And they pulled him over? Allen: Some—I don’t know what they did, but the next time I knew where he was, he was at the police station. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did they charge him with anything? Allen: I don’t think so. I don’t remember him—he probably had to pay a fine for being over there after dark. I don’t—we didn’t talk about it, because it was silly. Franklin: Right. But you were made to feel unwelcome. Allen: Oh, yeah. That was the main thing. Franklin: When did that begin to change? Allen: Well, I really can’t—because some of the stuff, it’s just kind of like changed when they put the highways in that we didn’t have before, you know. So we didn’t really have to go over the Blue Bridge to get to them; we could go different places. So as we—as time moved on, we got in with the rest of the world. [LAUGHTER] Things just, you know, started shaping up, because when they put out that the government wanted to buy up some houses over there on the east side, because they wanted to put a business district in there or something. I asked the man, the realtor, I told him—well, I had told him, can I be one of the first ones to move out? I said, so where am I going to move to? I said, can I go to the west side? And the man said—I said, will they sell me a house over on the west side? He said, if they want to sell that house, they better sell it to you. And so that was the thing that let me know that somebody was dealing with it, you know. So I didn’t—we didn’t have any trouble getting a house on the west side. Franklin: Oh. Do you remember around what time that would have been? Allen: You know, time—I told you that time—things like that escape me. But that would have been—hmm, let’s see. My baby girl was five. So that would have been 50 years ago. Franklin: Okay, 50 years ago. So the late—mid-to-late ‘60s. Allen: Probably so, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Allen: Because I managed to buy me a house up off of 20th across from Robert Frost School. And they had the overpass where I—I liked it, because my children didn’t have to cross the street. There was a park and an overpass. So my children never had to cross the streets down there; they could just go over the overpass, and they’d be at Robert Frost School, or the high school right down about five blocks down the street. And they never had to get on the freeway. Because the highway was 20th Street at the time, until just about three years ago they took that thing down—the sign down—the crossing. They took it down. But I liked it, and my cousin lived across from Mark Twain School. She had a beautiful home right there, directly across. So we got some nice houses. Franklin: That’s wonderful. But before then, you wouldn’t have been able—when you first moved here, people weren’t allowed—there was just, people wouldn’t sell a home in west Pasco to an African American, right? Allen: No. Franklin: No. The realtors wouldn’t and the— Allen: I guess not. Franklin: Did you hear of anybody trying early on? Allen: No, I really didn’t, because I did a lot of working and taking care of my kids and everything. A new marriage, and more babies. I did it all—you know. But I do know that—I liked my location right there where I was, right there on Lewis Street, and like I said, directly across from a store, East Side Market—that was a nice big store—and directly across the street from the school. So that was really good. Franklin: You had everything right there. Allen: It was right there of course, yeah. And then when we went down under the underpass, they had a nice town section then. Very nice town section. Franklin: Did your children, either the older or younger, did they experience any kind of segregation or racism in their education? Allen: No, they did not. In fact, you know, I was telling the lady that I was with, I have the one son, he was going to Pasco High School, and everything that he would join, they made him the president. So he’s charmed, to this day. And Mr. Gregson, who was the principal at the time, requested that he go to West Point, which I had never heard tell of. I didn’t know what a west point was. But they told me, one of the finest colleges in the world. And so when they referred him there, then it was—I don’t know how he—what happened, but anyway he managed to get to go to West Point. And it made me cry, because, like I was saying, I never even heard tell of a west point. I didn’t know what it was. And then that’s when they told me it was one of the finest colleges in the nation. And my son got to go—he graduated from there, and his son graduated from there. Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s great. Allen: Yeah. Franklin: What was your own education like? How far did you— Allen: I went to the tenth grade, because I married much too young. And so, when I was in tenth grade, I married. But after I had raised all of my children, I went back to school. Franklin: Okay. Allen: Okay, and I got my GED and then I got my degree from Central Washington State College. I got a teaching certificate—I taught. So I taught for 20 years. Before then, I was a home visitor. I was a home visitor for seven years, and I taught for 20 years at—I taught at Mark Twain Elementary School and Ruth Livingston out on Road 100. Franklin: What is a home visitor? Allen: Well, you go and find out why children aren’t at school, or do they need something? Because, you know. So you were just a soldier for the children, to help to get them out, or find out why they’re not coming to school or what. And we had a card where we could take them over to Grigg’s if they didn’t have the clothes. Because a lot of time, the parents would be out in the fields working and they just couldn’t. And we could get them two pair of jeans and things to go with it. Franklin: Oh, wow. Was that primarily African American children that you were working with? Allen: Mm-mm. Franklin: No, it was all— Allen: Whoever needed it. Franklin: Whoever need it. Allen: Whoever needed it: we had white, Mexican, black, you know. Franklin: That’s really amazing that you had to leave high school at tenth grade—or you made it through and then you later went back to get everything and teach. Allen: Yeah, right out of here, CBC. This is not the same CBC I went to. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know where in the world these beautiful buildings and things came from, because the school I started looked like a big rooming house. [LAUGHTER] But it’s okay. It’s where I went to. Franklin: Right, well, it seems to have done you pretty well. Allen: I’m grateful for that. But I had a family to raise first before I could go back to school. Franklin: Right. Allen: So I went—at 45 is when I got my degree. I was 45. And that gave me my 20 years’ teaching. And I was already working while I was going to school; I was a home visitor. Franklin: Wow, never too late, right? Never too late. That’s great. You also started working onsite—you worked at the Hanford Site. Allen: Yes. Franklin: At a point, too, right? What did you do at the Hanford Site? Allen: When I got hired there, the man took me into the building, and I was in downtown Richland—Uptown Richland, I guess. I worked at a place called U.S. Testing. The gentleman took me and he introduced me to people. And then he took me and sat me down, he told me, he said, I want you to be able to replace whoever’s not here. He said, I want you to just kind of be a stand-in. He said, so I would like for you to spend some time with the various offices that we have in here, so that if somebody is missing and we need help, you can come. That went from being a secretary on down. So I—that’s what I did. I worked with various people in the dark room; I worked with them in the labs; you know, I worked—so I got an opportunity to work with everybody, and then I also drove in the truck that you go and pick up the buckets off the people’s porches. I would go from Pasco to Yakima, Pasco to Walla Walla—you know, various places. Franklin: When you say bucket, do you mean the bioassay kits? The urine— Allen: Mm-hmm. Franklin: --and fecal matter— Allen: Yes, whatever was in it. Franklin: Right. Allen: I didn’t know—I didn’t have to open it. I’d just take it off the porch and put it in the truck. Franklin: And then place a clean one. Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah, if it needed to be. Franklin: And how long did you do that for? Allen: For—I think I worked out there about six years. Because I got sick. I got sick. They had told me to—I don’t know what was in it, but they had told me to wear—they had a couple of us—to wear a certain outfit that they had for us to put on. I don’t know—I think I would have not done it now, because after I wore it, it wasn’t too long before I got sick. They told us to keep it on. So I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you what it was. But they insisted that we keep it on for that full day and night and wear it. So, I don’t know what happened. But I know I got sick, and I was in the bed for a year. Franklin: And—for a year? Allen: Yes, I had to go to the doctor. They—my boss met me up in Seattle as I got off the plane, and took me over to, I think it was Virginia Mason Clinic. Franklin: Wow. Allen: And I was there, and we went another someplace else. They was checking my whole body to find, I have no idea what. Nobody ever explained to me what that was. But I—that was the end of my working out at Hanford, because it was just too spooky for me, you know. Franklin: Right. Allen: And I caught a picture of myself of working in a chimney, where all the steam and stuff go up and I was in there scrubbing it. But I didn’t have on a mask or anything like that. So I wasn’t getting the right training for it, because they shouldn’t have let me in there. But anyway, I got sick and I was in the bed for one year, yeah. My husband had to put my bed in the living room so I could be with the family. Franklin: Wow. Allen: Mm-hmm. And I don’t know what that—the material was that those clothes were made of, or if it had anything to do with it. I just know that that’s the difference. I’d never seen anything like it before. It was a couple of us, and I don’t know who the others were, but it was a couple of us that did that. But other than that, I just kind of like worked around in that building. Whatever somebody else was doing and they weren’t there, then I would either learn how to do it or do it. Franklin: What was the office environment there like? Did you face any kinds of discrimination? Allen: Yeah, at first I did. When I first went there. But then for some reason, the lady that was in the darkroom, she didn’t want me there. And for some reason, she met me one day, and she was crying. And she hugged me. And she begged my pardon, you know, and everything like that. Because she was saying, she ain’t coming in here! And then something happened. Franklin: Did she ever tell you what happened? Allen: No, but she just was very nice to me. And she said, I’ll tell you what I know about the darkroom. And everybody ended up being just very, very nice to me. It was that first thing that they didn’t—I guess they didn’t know—maybe they thought I was mean. I don’t know. Franklin: Did you—how many other African Americans were working onsite then? Was it pretty—still pretty uncommon? Or did you work with any other African Americans? Allen: No, I worked downtown, Richland. I don’t know what is the downtown, Uptown, anyway, but right behind Safeway. I didn’t—no. There was no more in there. People would come and get their body counts and stuff on the other side, and I was in the lab side. Franklin: Okay. How did the civil rights movement affect the Tri-Cities and your life? Allen: In my lifetime? Well, you know, when you got eight children at home, you don’t get out of the house too much except to go where you’re going and get back home really quick. But I didn’t think it—I had been in segregation, down South, in Little Rock, Arkansas. I never saw a sign like the ones that I saw in the South. Because down in the South, they would say, blacks to the back, and all kinds of stuff like that. They had them signs. And waitress wanted, white only, or waitress wanted, black only. That’s how they—elevator operators, because that’s what we did at the time. Now you do your own elevator, but at that time, they wanted either a darker black or a lighter black. You know? Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Light-skinned. But everybody seemed to work. They did get jobs, but you just had to go past those signs. I have a picture of a girl, she sneaked and drank out of the white fountain, and she was saying, aaahh. And I was thinking, that water don’t taste any different. Franklin: Yeah. Were you involved in the civil rights movement in any way? Allen: I tried not to be. Franklin: Why was that? Allen: I didn’t—I don’t know what I could have done, because it’s a lot of people got killed, dragged behind cars, behind trucks and things. There was that one boy, they drowned him because he spoke to this white lady. Franklin: Emmitt Till. Allen: Emmitt Till, yeah. That’s the kind of stuff that was going on. So I didn’t really have a need to do any of that. Franklin: Was there any local opposition from the white community towards civil rights? Did you— Allen: No, I didn’t—nobody—oh. The one funny thing that happened after we moved up off of 20th Street. My husband was at the—you probably know what I’m going to say. My husband was out back cutting the lawn and trimming the bushes. And a guy walked up and asked him how much would he charge to trim his bushes? And so my husband told him, well, I get to sleep with the lady of the house. [LAUGHTER] And I guess that man, he didn’t like that answer. [LAUGHTER] But that’s exactly what happened. He told him, I get to sleep with the lady of the house. Because it was our front there. He was trimming hedges, that’s what he was doing. The man came wanting to know how much he charging him to cut his hedges. Franklin: Right, because he thought he was— Allen: Trying to be funny. Franklin: --not the owner of the house, but a worker. Allen: Ah, no, trying to be funny. Because I think by that time, it had rounded that people are moving into the various communities. Because by that time, a lot of people started moving over to the west side. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Yeah, because when I asked—when my house went up, I asked the real estate person, can you get me a house over on the west side? Will they sell me a house? He said, if they don’t sell it to you, then they’re going to have to take it off the market. That’s how he explained it to me. He said, because it’s open. He let us know it was open. And people were starting to come all along the 2nd Street there, all that filled in with black people. Franklin: Was the housing generally better on the west side? Allen: Well, there wasn’t anything left on the east side. Yeah, there wasn’t anything else left on the east side. So that’s the reason that we were moving, because they were wanting to have some more business stuff. Like they got. They got a lot of business stuff over there. Franklin: All the development and everything. Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah. I see a couple of the buildings—the old hotel building is still over there, and it’s ugly, too. Well, it’s been there for—you know. I’ve been here 50, 60 years. It was there when I got there. Franklin: Right. Allen: In fact, there was all kinds of stuff over there when I first came here. Franklin: Were your children active in the civil rights movement locally or anything? Do you remember them, were they involved or interested or invested in any way? Allen: If they were, I didn’t know about it, because they helped me a lot with the smaller children, so there was always a couple of the boys at home around to help me out in case I needed to go to the store or whatever. I don’t remember them being involved in any—they were involved in school activities, like racing and ball—stuff, whatever at the school. They weren’t—it wasn’t the neighborhood stuff. But we did go to church. We did that, we went to church over there. Franklin: [STOMACH GURGLING] Excuse me. Excuse me again. Any memories of, like, the social scene or politics or insights into Tri-Cities since—from when you moved here on? Allen: I don’t understand. Franklin: Sorry. Anything about the Tri-Cities stick out to you from when you moved here, or from living here in the past 60 years? Allen: I don’t—not quite understanding. Franklin: Oh, okay. Well, let me try a different question. Allen: Okay. Franklin: Let’s see here. Were there any—what are some of your memories of major events in the Tri-Cities? Do you remember President Kennedy visiting in 1963? Because you would have—I think you would have been working at Hanford at that time. Allen: Yeah, I remember something about that. I didn’t get an opportunity to participate in anything like that. I do know, when—who was the—what President was that, that got killed? I was working out in Richland at Hanford and I was in the darkroom working. The man that oversees the buildings, he came and came in there where I was, and he was surprised to see me. He said, what are you doing here? I said, I work here. He said, but everybody else has gone home. I says, why? He said, President Kennedy got killed. That’s about what I remember. Everybody just—the cars were backed up as far as you could see them, because everybody was leaving, going home. And the guy found me and got me, ousted me out of the building to go home. But other than that—I mean, that’s—everybody took advantage of that. But—no. Franklin: Were you ever worried about—Hanford played such an important role in the Cold War in producing plutonium. Were you ever worried about being so close to Hanford? Did it ever make you nervous or anxious? Allen: Are you talking about living or working? Franklin: Both. Allen: Well, I didn’t even think about it in my living, because like I said, that was all the way out in Richland. We did have people out there living in mobile homes and things off the properties there. But I never did consider none of that, because I didn’t live in Richland. I lived in Pasco, and never the twain shall meet. People would come over sometime and go to church, over to Pasco. But, no, we did have quite a few people that lived over—quite a few black people that lived over there in trailers and different things like that. I did try to buy a house when they put all their houses up for sale, because it was so nice and cheap, but they said, no, you can’t buy if you didn’t work out—at the time. That’s before I did go to Hanford, I was trying to—no, that was after I had left Hanford. They were selling their houses, because they were so cheap. I would have loved to have bought them, but they said no. Franklin: Oh, so you tried to buy a house in Richland? Allen: Well, yeah, I wanted to, because they were selling them for $2,000 and $3,000. Nice big houses. Franklin: [LAUGHING] Yeah. Oh, let’s see here. When you worked at Hanford, how did security or secrecy impact your job there? Allen: Well, the things that I did, it wasn’t that kind of secret. Because, like I said, if I was in the lab, probably washing stuff down or something like that. Or if somebody wasn’t in the office, I was probably in the office, doing something. It didn’t affect me very much, because I just did what I was told. [LAUGHTER] That’s as far as I would go with that. I learned a lot while I was there working. But after I got sick, and I stayed—basically—I was basically in bed for a year. When I came out, and I was going to go back out to U.S. Testing, there was a foul, strong odor out there, and I backed out. I said, no, I’m not going to die out here. I was just going to go out there to see if I could meet with somebody and talk. But I got this strong scent of medicine and stuff. And I said, I’m not inhaling that stuff in my body no more. So the medicine that they gave me, I’m still on it, and that’s been 60 years. Franklin: Wow. Allen: Yeah. Still taking it, and that’s—I rarely take medicine that long. But I still have to take it. Franklin: Do you know—what kind of medicine is it? Allen: Well, sarca—they called it—they said I had gotten something like sarcoidosis. But if I had my medicine list, I could show you, but—because I got a medicine list. I get a medicine list, and on there you got this medicine, over the years, the same thing over and over and over. And they say, well, that’s what’s keeping you going. That’s what’s keeping your heart beating. That’s what they tell me about it. So, I’m grateful. Franklin: Who were—do you remember any—who were some of the community leaders when you—in the African American community, when you moved here in the ‘50s? Allen: Yeah. Well, one of the leaders was my cousin, Virgie Robinson. She was definitely a leader. She was a leader. Franklin: How long had she been here? Allen: Well, she must have been here three or four years, I guess. Because when she came down there and saw me, and asked—because I had lived with her family from the time I was five until I was twelve. So she hadn’t seen me for a while, so when she came and saw me down, and asked me if I wanted—if I would come to Pasco. I would’ve just probably went anywhere at the time, because I was so desperate to get out of Little Rock, Arkansas. I hated it. But she—you said, who are some of the other people there. Well, I’m trying to think who was—well, always the pastors. The pastors seemed to be always the lead people. Dallas Barnes. He was going to college and he was working. The Daniels family, they were very—the men were very useful. Vanis Daniels and— Franklin: Oh yeah. Yeah, he’s wonderful. Allen: That Daniels people, the young men were good. Delores Groves. Mm-hmm. Yes. Franklin: Did you know the— Allen: She died two years ago. Franklin: Did you know the Mitchells at all? Allen: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Did you have—because they lived in Richland most of the time, right? CJ and his— Allen: Oh, yeah. I’ve never known him to live in—they used to come to church over in Pasco and then they stopped that, too. But yeah, I know the Mitchells. CJ Mitchell and all of them. But they were active—very, very active. Franklin: Yeah. Because he—I think he became a realtor at some point and helped to sell houses. Allen: And his son. His son—is he a judge? Franklin: I think so. Allen: I think that’s a judge, yeah, because I think I saw him yesterday on a—whatever they do. He had on a case. Franklin: Oh, right, right. Allen: Yeah, he was— Franklin: And then you guys eventually moved out to even more west Pasco, right? Allen: Yes. Franklin: When was that? Allen: 2003. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: 2002 or 2003. Yeah, we built our own house out there. Franklin: Okay, and how come you moved from Lewis and — Allen: Because we had this big park. And drugs—them guys were starting to meet out there in the park there. And I told BJ—because, in fact, they had tore a lady’s house, the inside out of her house because they found drugs in her house. And they had all her stuff sitting outside. And I told my husband, I said, we need to get out of here. I said, because this—I don’t like this. This is spooky. They got that woman’s house just tore up because they found some drugs in it. And the park, it just wasn’t fit to go to anymore. My kids used to enjoy going to the park, learning how to swim in the summertime, just playing. And all of the sudden, all these guys with these drugs and stuff were out there. So I just happened to be riding—because I didn’t even know that this existed, where I’m living now. And I got up there on Road 60 and it was a service station and there was Yoke’s. And I’m thinking, what’s going on? And I went around the corner and they had all these apartments, and then you could go in and sign in the book and check them out. So I did and I went and told my husband, let’s go back. So we did, we went back and we decided, okay, we’ll get out of here and put our house up. It was gone in three days. Franklin: Wow. Allen: Well, the lady across the street wanted it for her brother. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: And somebody else was wanting to see the house, but this man was complaining. Well, you need to do this, and you need to do that. And that lady called me on my phone, because she knew my name, and she asked me, where are you living? And I did my best to tell her. She came out there and she gave me a down payment and told me, you call your husband and tell him to get that man out of that house. Because I want it for my brother. So they bought the house, and we got started. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. How has Pasco changed from when you moved there in the early ‘50s to now? Allen: Well, I think the population—well, we don’t want to talk about population, do we? What can I say? It’s a good place, it’s a nice place over there. Nice houses—some nice houses over there. In fact, they got a whole neighborhood behind this one church over there, behind Greater Faith—New Hope. Behind New Hope Baptist Church they’ve got a whole neighborhood that’s mostly Hispanic over there. So a lot—you go over there and you find 99% of the people that’s—so I have a lady friend of my granddaughter’s who—they got married recently, and they decided to build over there because it’s the cheapest place. They said the bill. So according to the paper, you know, it’s 90%--they figure that the population is about 90% Hispanic. Which is great. But it’s good to be able to find places to live, and live peacefully. That’s what you want to do. Franklin: How—were there a lot of Hispanics when you moved to the area in 1950s? When did that begin to change? Allen: You know, I don’t really know, because I was working and learning and taking care of babies—my children and everything. It was—I didn’t really do a lot of keeping up with the population change. But I know that we—now, when I lived on Lewis Street, we came back over to Richland—I mean over to the side. They had all the good stores over there: they had Penny’s and they even had Montgomery Ward’s, and ain’t seen a Montgomery Ward’s, and Sears & Roebuck, and all the drugstores and things like that. Then one day I was at the West Side Market. Because I tell this all the time, and it happened. And this gentleman came in, and he had a board like you’ve got, and he had a big book. And he came into the store—the West Side Market—and he asked the lady that was at the counter, he said, I’d like to speak to your boss, please. She says, oh, okay. And so he walked around, and I said, hmm, I wonder what this all about. I’m going to see. So when the boss came out, he says, I see you don’t have no Mexican workers. And I’m thinking, uh-oh. Maybe I can get out of here. But no. And the guy kind of looked around, and he said, you don’t have no Mexican workers? You don’t have Mexican workers, you don’t need Mexican money. And I was thinking to myself, why couldn’t I have thought about that? I thought that was really cool, because by Saturday, I saw three people working in that store. Three Mexicans working. That was the West Side Market. Because we had the East Side Market, and the same guy owned both stores. So this was the West Side Market. But he got Mexicans—pretty soon, they had jobs. And I’m thinking, this man comes from nowhere—I don’t know where he came from, but all of the sudden, he tells this man, if you want Mexican money, you get Mexican workers. I said, that’s one of the smartest things I’ve ever heard. I love it. I loved that! Why couldn’t we have thought about that? Because we still hadn’t got no jobs down there. But I thought that was so nice, because then all of the sudden within like a month, every store around had Hispanic workers. And that’s good. And so then I read in the paper that Pasco was like 90-95% Hispanic. And that’s okay. They’re working, and that’s what counts. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Had it been difficult for people in the African American community to find jobs early on? Allen: Mm-hmm, yeah. We didn’t find hardly any jobs. You might find one working. And then my cousin, he had a store over there on 4th Street—4th and Clark. It was selling sandwiches and things like that, and it didn’t really do too good. Franklin: What did your husband do when he worked? Allen: My husband worked for Boise-Cascade and Hanford. So he would work for Hanford for a while and get laid off, and then he’d go to Boise-Cascade. So then he’d go to Boise-Cascade for a while, and then he’d get laid off and go back to Hanford—no, Hanford would call him back. So he did that three or four times and then he said, you know what? I’m sick of this. This just doesn’t make sense for me to just keep going back and getting laid off and then go back. So my husband was a truck driver for Boise-Cascade. Franklin: It would be hard to build up seniority that way, and a pension. Allen: Yeah, see, that’s what he was upset about. Because like he said, this don’t even make sense. I’m working, and then Hanford call me back and there I go running back. And then work for seven, eight months, maybe a year, get laid off again. Go back out to Boise—Hanford call you back. Franklin: What did he do at Hanford? Did he also drive truck at— Allen: He was—no, he was an engineer. He was—oh, what—he fixed things. Yeah. I have some pictures of him in his office with the other guys that was in there. They did upkeep on instruments and different stuff like that. Franklin: Oh, okay. Allen: And at Boise-Cascade, he was a truck driver. Franklin: Oh, very different occupations. Allen: So finally he moved; finally he decided, I’m staying with Boise-Cascade. Franklin: Okay. Did he ever talk about experiencing any kind of discrimination or segregation at Hanford or Boise-Cascade? Allen: No, I really didn’t. Certainly not at Boise-Cascade and Hanford, either, that I knew of. I felt very comfortable. Probably the first day or so, you know, when people looking at you going in. And then the boss man taking here and telling you about this job and this job, somebody might think something. But other than that, after a while, we would be hugging and—you know—being happy and we’d have dinners and everything would be nice. I didn’t have any bad feelings at all. Franklin: Did you ever—you still have family in Arkansas, right? Some family in Arkansas, or did they all— Allen: I [UNKNOWN] because my mother and my step-father died. So, no, I don’t have any that I know of. Franklin: Oh okay, so you pretty much severed— Allen: I— Franklin: --severed ties in Arkansas. How do you think your life would have been different if you had stayed—if you had not come to the Tri-Cities? Allen: Well, I certainly didn’t like Arkansas, and I wasn’t going to stay there, because believe you me, I have gone to other places. I went to St. Louis—I didn’t like that. Chicago, different places like that. Certainly wasn’t going back to Saginaw, Michigan where I was raised from the time I was five until I was twelve. I hated that place with two passions. Franklin: Why? Allen: Well, I didn’t do anything. You know, I was a little girl—I was a young girl there, and things started happening as I was moving on, because I was there from the time I was five until I was twelve. And that’s when I went back to Little Rock, where my mother was. But during that time, I didn’t even see my mother. Because they just didn’t have the money. And my stepfather, he did the best he could, but they wasn’t paying anything, hardly, for people working. He didn’t work in the mines or anything like that. That was one of the big places for people to work at, in the mine—mines and things like that. So, I wouldn’t have stayed there, under no circumstances. I literally hated Saginaw, Michigan—I mean, Little Rock, Arkansas, I hated it. And Saginaw, too. This—I fell in love with Richland and Pasco and Kennewick. I really did. Franklin: Really? Allen: Yeah. Franklin: What was it about it that— Allen: Well, I had more of a chance to get out and get into these careers. I got to finish up my education right here. That all by itself, you know. I got ready to do that, and then I did that. This man thought enough of my son to recommend him to one of the finest colleges in the nation, and we didn’t have 15 cent to grind, and he went. That just— Franklin: Did he end up getting a scholarship to go? How did he— Allen: Yeah, yeah! Franklin: Wow, that’s really something. Allen: Yup, they put him in and I got to go see him when he graduated. We all went to see him when he graduated. And then he got married, and his son went to West Point. That was good. Franklin: Yeah. You must be very proud. Allen: I am, and I was. He was a FEMA worker. He worked for FEMA, but here just about four months ago, another something came in that was kind of like FEMA. I don’t know the name of it. But he quit FEMA and went to this other place, because the way that he was going with FEMA, which the head office was in Washington, D.C., he would have to take his car—he lives in Maryland—and he would have to take his car up to where they all parked their cars and take a train to go into Washington, D.C. Because, he said, if you found a parking place to purchase, it’s half of your check. He said it was so expensive and everything. So he worked there for many, many, many years. But just this year—this past year, another company came in similar to that. It was just—but he didn’t have to travel to those terrible places like FEMA people do. You know, they have to go where all that mud and everything. And he’s done this quite a few times, and he said this one gives him a break. Because he’s 65 years old now. So he’s not as young as he was when he started it. He started it, I think, back when he was in either his late 30s or early 40s. And he worked all that time. So he said he was awfully glad to be able to not have to park his car at the—wherever they park the cars—to get on the trains. Because they have parking lots for people to go. And you still have to pay for that, too. That’s another thing you have to pay for. Franklin: Wow, it’s expensive to make a living. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Tri-Cities? Allen: Well, you know, I think—I believe that Hanford is a good place to work, because I got two daughters left out there. They’re both working—they got excellent jobs. Now, I got a son that died from that stuff that they got out there. It got in his system and everything. And he died about five years ago. From working out in that stuff. But I would—there’s danger in all kinds of jobs. You’d have to know what you’re doing to be working. Because it is dangerous, and a lot of people have left here that were working out there, and all of the sudden their lungs were messed up and various things like that. So I’m just grateful that I got sick, but I got well. Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: But I think that—I don’t know what the clothes had to do with me. And nobody told me that they had something to do—I’m wondering why did they say to put these clothes on and keep them on overnight, all day, and overnight and then get them changed. I don’t know what that was about. Nobody ever told me anything. But I have a suspicion that that was the cause of me getting sick like I did. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Because I was up in Virginia Mason for quite a while and just various—you know. I was sick. I was in the bed for a year. Franklin: Yeah, that’s really something. Disturbing story. Allen: Yes, it is. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration and segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Allen: Well. I don’t like that kind of stuff, but—because my first thing to go with integration was when I got on the bus in Little Rock—I mean—I’m sorry, in Saginaw, Michigan is where I’d been living for seven years. When they would put me on the bus to send me home to my mother, they tagged me. They put my name and everything there so that they—okay, so when—we was riding the bus, just really good, and when we came to what they called the Mason-Dixon Line—and I didn’t know what it was; they told me later—this man, said, all right, all you niggers get to the back. And that just killed me. Because he had been—seemed like he had been so nice. Because I had been sitting right behind the driver. Because I was tagged. And so—and then he says, all you niggers get to the back. Okay. So then we went, and we went on a few miles, and everybody stopped for lunch. So I got in the—to run in to get some lunch, and they told me, you get to the back. You go around on the back side. So I went there and they had a bunch of sandwiches made up, and you never know how long them sandwiches had been there or what. But that’s what they had to offer. So that was my introduction to what it was going to be. And it was sick. Franklin: Yeah. Allen: Yeah, I just couldn’t believe that people could get treated like that. But I really didn’t have much to go on. Franklin: And the Tri-Cities gave you a break from that? Allen: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Right? There wasn’t that type of environment— Allen: No, we didn’t have nothing like that, that I know of. I’m sure that somebody somewhere had some discrimination problems. And like I told you, my then-boyfriend got trapped over in Kennewick. So I had to go and get him out—bail him out, and they told him, don’t come back over there at night. Franklin: Do you think in general, for people you knew that also moved here, that life was better here than if they had come from the South? Allen: Most of them that came here stayed. They stayed, they got jobs, you know. They had houses. To this day. So I think they—I think most of them liked it here. And I haven’t heard of anybody going back home, going back South. But I have a granddaughter that—she wanted to move South, because she wanted to go to a historically black college. And she did, and she’s doing a good job, and she’s happy where she is and everything like that. But, see, I wouldn’t—it didn’t faze me at all. Franklin: Well, Rose, thank you so much for coming and interviewing, and just telling me about your life and your life story. I really appreciate it. Allen: Well, thank you very much for asking me, and I’m sorry my memory’s not any better than it is. But— Franklin: No, I— Allen: That’s the best I got. Franklin: No, you did a wonderful job. Thank you again, so much. Allen: Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview General Electric U.S. Testing Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1960-1966 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rose Allen Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Teaching Civil rights Description An account of the resource Rose Allen moved to Pasco, Washington from Arkansas in the early 1950's. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/12/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F45acbc1bc142ae437076d7713580593e.JPG d11aecf203cd64ef630c4b0ccf863714 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7b6c49d1ceaf6d495ad6d3e71ead4e45.mp4 92df87acc3350aecb21784f91896fc3e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Clarance Alford Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview on Clarence Alford on May 17th 2018. The interview is being conducted on the Campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. We’ll be talking with Clarence about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities. And for the record can you state and spell your full name for us? Clarence Alford: Okay, Clarence Alford, Junior. That’s Clarence, it’s C-L-A-R-E-N-C-E. The last name is Alford, A-L-F-O-R-D, that’s a junior. Franklin: Okay. So, Clarence, tell me how and why you came to the area? Alford: Well, I came to the area to see a brother. I had a brother who lived here that worked up at Battelle and I came to see him. After being here I met a young lady, came back to see the young lady and thought I would take a job and a few months later she was gone and I was stuck. I wasn’t able to find my way out. Franklin: When was this? Alford: This was 1968. Franklin: 1968. And where did you grow up? Where are you from originally? Alford: I’m from the State of Louisiana, a little small place called Ringgold. Franklin: Can you spell that? Alford: R-I-N-G-G-O-L-D. It’s 35 miles east of Shreveport, 100 miles north of Alexandria, 203 miles from Baton Rouge. Franklin: Were you born in Ringgold? Alford: I was born in Ringgold, yes. Franklin: What year were you born? Alford: 1944. Franklin: 1944. You moved here from there? You were in your mid 20s when you moved out? Alford: Yes. Franklin: I wonder if you can tell me about life growing up in the South during the Jim Crow era. Alford: In what sense? Franklin: I guess, let’s talk about opportunities. What were your educational opportunities and experiences? Alford: I was out of six of us: three girls and three boys in my family. Parents, one parent finished first grade and the other one finished eighth grade. Their push for us was to get an education. Out of the six of us, five of us ended up with degrees. Two finished high school and there was one that did not finish high school, probably the smartest of the group, he later got a GED and ended up in a unique position in the State of California. The schools that I attended was segregated schools, because at that particular time, integration has not taken place in the State of Louisiana. The pluses for me was the support of my parents. I didn’t want to go into the armed services. I had heard about the Teacher Corps and they had another corps, it wasn’t the Teacher Corps where young people could actually go and participate in an activity. And I found out very soon that that wasn’t an option. My parents very soon decided what we did. It wasn’t a decision that I decided. So when I got in college, I really had some difficulties trying to figure out what field I should go into. But I met a young lady who was a chemistry major and I thought, I like her, chemistry probably would be the subject. So I got my degree in mathematics with a minor in chemistry. I think sometime if she would have been a recess major I probably would’ve been in recess as a career. Franklin: What college did you attend? Alford: Undergraduate was Southern University in Baton Rouge Louisiana. It’s the largest black land grant college in the United States. Franklin: But did you go on to get an advanced degree? Alford: Yup. I was one of those individuals that was very fortunate, I had a chance to go to Pratt Institute in New York. Pratt, if you know it, has two things that people go there for; one is if you are in art and the second if you’re in chemistry. I had a chance to go there. I met a professor that told me I should go and get a degree and get a master’s degree, and so I did. When I got my master’s degree there was probably one of those individuals who took a little bit of interest in me and that was a plus. But that was—I took part of my degree here at Washington State University on campus and here. The fun part about it is that—something that I never anticipated—was I ended up teaching a class about three doors from here. That’s a whole different story but that’s a little bit from my background. Franklin: That’s really interesting. What about work opportunities? What did your parents do in Louisiana? Alford: My father and mother was farmers. My father ended up marrying my mother who was somewhat ambitious and they bought 40 acres of land in Louisiana and started a farm, and so they were farmers. It was a small farm with some mules and plows, but that was the lifestyle until the kids all grew up, they didn’t have enough people to continue the farm and so my father got a job working in the logging industry. He did that until he got a job driving a school bus on the last portion of his life, and the rest of it is history. Franklin: Tell me about the house you grew up in. Alford: The first house that we lived in I don’t really remember, because I was there for like two years. My parents built a house. The house that they built, we didn’t have an indoor plumbing but we had a five bedrooms. Because we didn’t have a living room; the living room was one big bedroom. That was the room that my parents lived in. it was on top of a hill, and in Louisiana you don’t have a lot of hills, but in that case we were on a hill surrounded by pine trees and oak trees. A good place to go fishing and hunting. It was a major highway. But prior to that time, for my brothers and sisters, it was different because at that particular time he had not built the house and so the distance between where they lived and the main highway was about eight miles, it was down a dirt road. When it rained, you didn’t go anywhere because the car couldn’t make it up the hill. But for me, the house we had was a neat house. My dad talked about the one—my brothers and sisters talked about going to bed at night and waking up thinking that someone urinated on you. But if you looked up you could see sometimes the moon and the stars and when it rained, from what I understand, the water came down wherever the holes happened to be and if you didn’t move your bed you had a pond in it for the rest of the night and it was cold. Franklin: During your childhood, the South was under segregation, right? I wonder if you can talk about your experiences with segregation and with Jim Crow, in the town, commercial activities, things like that. Alford: Well, because my parents did farm, I learned to work in the field very, very early. There was no such thing as a time frame that you start in the morning at 8:00 or 7:00. You started when my parents said time to go and we stopped when they said we’re going home. Because my father was one of these individuals who was able to communicate with people, we had a number of people that would visit us, who happened to have been quite unusual but common. My father’s relationship with those particular fellas, they would come up sometimes at night, knock on the door, they would bring something to drink and sit around or on our porch and drink. I don’t know how he developed that relationship. I don’t know why they felt comfortable to come to our house, but it happened. In terms of me getting in trouble, didn’t happen until I was in high school. One night, we were going to the carnival, and of course there we called it a fair. I was driving home and I got stopped by a police officer. The police officer had us to get out of the car, he patted us down, he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him. So he decided that we should go to jail, so he took us to the little city in Ringgold. There, he put us in jail and I asked him how long we would be there, and that wasn’t the question that I should’ve asked. He said some things that are not very nice to hear. But later on he came-- Franklin: Like racial slurs? Alford: Yes. A little bit later on I asked him if I could call my dad. And he asked who is my dad. I had given him my license from the State of Louisiana. He looked at it, but I guess he had not connected the last names. So, he asked me who’s my father and I told him and he said, oh, okay, you can come out. I was able to come out and call my father. My dad drove down and came into jail, and he wanted to know why. The fella said, well, he was driving the car and they was in the car and I stopped them. My father said, why? And I can’t remember what answer he gave, but my father said I’m taking my son, I’m taking these boys with me. He said, no, you’re not taking them. And my father said, no, I’m taking them. And he gave them one of the fellas that lived in the city, he said, either I’m taking them or he’s going to come down here and get my boys out of here. That was my connection with law enforcement. He did let us go, and they didn’t write up any charges, they just dropped two boys out at their house and told their parents and they were very thankful that we was at home. But other than that, just maybe a couple occasions where you were stopped by somebody and say some things that are inappropriate but life has been pretty good. Franklin: Segregation pervaded pretty much every aspect of life in the South. Alford: Right. Franklin: What about—I understand you grew up on the farm, pretty rural. But when you went to town, did you have to use separate facilities, or when you traveled did you have to use separate facilities from whites. And I’m wondering if you can you describe those facilities? Alford: Yup, it was—looking back at that particular time, it’s very difficult to determine what’s right and wrong because that’s just a set of rules. When I was growing up it was just a set of rules. If you were walking down the street and there was a white female coming in that direction, the appropriate thing was to step off the side walk. If you went into the store and you was buying something and someone else came in and who happened to be white, you took your items while they took care of theirs. In terms of so many things—when you only know one things when you only know x, it’s very difficult to see why. The reason behind that is that growing up in the South and where I grew up, that was just a code of ethics, if you will. I hate to use the word “ethics” in this case, but it was just a sequence of events that had been there for I don’t know how many years. So being born there, it’s just the way it was. That’s just the way they city operated. So when you saw a police officer, you wanted to make sure that you didn’t get very close to him, and the reason was because police was not considered to be your friends. Where, if they went to the left, you went to the right; if you could avoid seeing them, you did. That was taught to me by parents, is that I don’t want to see you in one of those cars being taken to jail. Franklin: Right. Alford: If you do these types of things, you can avoid it. That was the process of growing up in the South for me and my family. Franklin: Were whites and blacks addressed differently? Alford: It’d depend on the location. What I mean by that is that when you walked into a store, whites was always mister, okay, mister and missus, miss. That’s the way you addressed them. But there was cases where that part didn’t work. I’ll give you a case and it’s a case I think about quite often and I’m not so sure why it occurred. I remember my oldest brother, he had a friend and they used to play together, about the same age. When they got to be older, I don’t remember the age somewhere around sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years old, I can remember my brother, older brother, being in the store with us and Ray. Ray was a white kid who was about the same age as my brother, and we played together, we talked to each other, and we called him Ray all the time. On this particular day my older brother says, hey, Ray, let’s go hunting, or something. And these other individuals who happened to be white said, hey, he told his dad, did you hear what that boy said to your son? His name was Otis. And Otis said, what? What happened? He said, he called your son by his first name, he should be calling him mister now. I think I will probably remember this forever, Mr. Otis turned around and said to this fella and he says, the first time my son asks Max—that was my brother’s name—he called him mister I’m going to kick his bump-bump-bump all the way home. It was the first time that I had ever heard a case where a white person said to another white person that this will not happen with my son. But why’d it occur, I don’t know; I just remember it happening. And we have talked—the family we have talked about that I don’t know, numerous times. The sad part about it is that when we got old enough to consciously get to think about it, the father was deceased and so was the son. I never had an opportunity—it was one of those cases where I wished I had an opportunity to go and talk to the father and ask him why, why we call you mister, but you didn’t want my brother to call your son mister? It’s a rare case and I don’t know the answer; it’s just something that occurred. Franklin: How did the civil rights movement begin to affect your life in the South before you left Louisiana? Alford: How did segregation impact my life in Louisiana? I think for me, it did three things: one, it gave me an idea of what power was able to do—what a person with power was able to do. The second part, I think, was, because of the conditions, and because my mother was so fixated, if I could use that word, with us going to college, that it made a big difference. There was six of us, and five of the six ended up with degrees, college graduates. Three of us with masters—two of us with masters; one should have gotten his, but he didn’t go back. But two masters and just the one that didn’t do as well. But I think because of the conditions and because of my mother always wanted to go to school. She said she always wanted to go to school and she never had a chance to go, and by and by, whatever, my kids are going to go. And that was what she wanted. I think that because of her, having a vision that we should go to school, has impacted my life. I think about it quite often with my own kids, that it has an impact on them as well. Franklin: One of your brothers was working at Battelle, you mentioned. How did he come out to Richland, to Battelle? Alford: He got his degree from Southern University in Baton Rouge. He was an agriculture major with a minor in biology. What happened is that after he finished school, he ended up getting a job in Idaho. He used to write to us when he got to Idaho, he lived in a little small place. I think this is true—less than 5% of the population was black. And so he worked there in the Department of Agriculture. And then he ended up going to some conference, and a fella was talking about the farm that he had in the State of Washington. Somewhere in that process of them communicating their jobs, he ended up coming to the State of Washington. The fella had a friend who worked for Battelle, and they were doing some type of research on some type of plants and he ended up going to take a job with Battelle. So that’s the way he got here. Franklin: When you came to visit, what were your first impressions when you arrived? Alford: Why would anybody live here? [LAUGHTER] That was—I could not understand why anyone in their right mind would come here; there was no grass, just lots of dirt. When I came to visit my brother, we had a wind storm. We was outside and you stopped and everybody would bow until the sand passed over. I thought it was a stupid place to live, no trees and all you got is dirt and sand, and very few of us, people of color. So I had not anticipated ever living here. Franklin: What made you stay? What made you decide to put down roots in Tri-Cities? Alford: At that time I was teaching school in California and I met a young lady while I was here. The Superintendent of the Pasco School District—there was someone else on the phone, but I remember him getting on the phone and saying, we would like for you to consider a job here in Pasco. We are looking for people with backgrounds in math and science, and I think you would enjoy it. Would you like to come? Yes, I’ve been there. Would you like to come back? We would like to talk to you. So, I came back to see the girl and it was a free trip because they were going to pay for it. I thought, I’ll go back and go through this little interview and see her and I’ll be back. I came and I made the mistake of listening to what the superintendent was talking about. What he was talking about, what he said, I can still remember it. He said we have a place here where we got—at that time he said—lots of Negro kids, that’s living and we don’t have that many teachers. We really would love for you to come here and work here. Then he said—he started talking about the benefits of coming and the area and all. And I thought, you know, maybe if I would take this job and stay for three or four years, learn as much as I can, I’m going to go back to Louisiana, and I’ll take what I got out of California, working out at a Catholic school, what I get out of this school here, when I go back I’m going to be very powerful. I took the job with the understanding that the whole intent wasn’t so much Pasco, but me developing some skills, some knowledge, that I could go back to Louisiana and work with a group of kids that look like me and make a difference. At the end of the second year I began to think, okay, yeah, I think I could pull this off. The third year, they integrated the schools in the city that I lived in that I wanted to go back. And that was a very sad moment. You put a lot of effort in something, and then you find out the possibility doesn’t exist anymore. It was a sad day to think that I’ve acquired some skills, some knowledge, and I’m going to make some difference in the lives of a group of kids. And that opportunity no longer exists. Franklin: I thought integration was a major goal of the civil rights movement. How would things have changed for you so much when they integrated the schools back in Louisiana? Alford: I grew up with a group of black kids, black family, and there are some things that are somewhat unique with us as a group. And so with my understanding, if I could take the knowledge that I have acquired from California and the knowledge that I have acquired form the State of Washington, and if I can bring those kids in, I could talk about possibilities. Not read about them, but talk about them. I think there’s a difference between walking and hoping to walk. There’s a difference between believing and thinking. There’s a difference between doing and talk about doing. And for me, I knew, under the right condition, I could make a significant difference in the lives of kids that look like me. And that to me was exciting. The school that I worked in California was a Catholic school, and there was a sister, Sister Marion. Probably one of the best teachers that I had ever seen in my life, and she allowed me to come into her classroom and sit and observe during my planning period. Then one day I made a mistake. Made a big mistake. Sister Marion used to come in and she would have her books underneath her arm, and it seemed like she had just gotten a big dip of snuff, and she would put her books down and she would walk over and she would start her lesson. And I emulated that. She came in one day to do my observation. And I came in with my books the same way as Sister Marion, and then I did the same thing. She called me in after I taught that class and she told me, what’s this? I said, Sister Marion, I saw you walking in with your books that way, I saw you introducing. She said when you get 30 years of teaching, when you’ve taught 30 years of teaching, then you do that. Until that, you go back to the things that work for you. She says, you have a connection with kids, she says, you love kids, she said, they love you, and she said, you teach. She said, forget about the things that I do in my classroom. Because what Sister Marion did in her math class—she came in and comes to find her way in which the strategies of teaching. But I was so impressed with her that I didn’t understand that to get to that stage you have to have made all these minor steps. So I was blessed to have had a person who was able to tell me that. And as a result of that, I went back to teaching the traditional way, until I got to be a little bit better, and then I took some of those things that she did. Because it was a great skill; those were great strategies. Because she would walk in and she would call the kid in the back of the classroom. But I didn’t have those years. But by the time I finished my teaching career, I, too, could call the kid in the back of the classroom and emulate her. Franklin: So, what led to your decision to stay? Because you mentioned that you had a plan of building skills and going back to Louisiana. Alford: Right. Franklin: But obviously you stayed. What led your decision to stay and to want to, you know, work on things here? Alford: Well, one was that the school was integrated. It was no longer the black school that I had anticipated making a difference in. They were going through a series of problems. They were not—the schools were still having difficulties of integration and the problems that integration can bring. They don’t have to, but they can bring with them. Different races of kids, different backgrounds, different beliefs and if not done correctly, you spend more time on those nitpicking pieces than you do on instruction. That was one piece; the second piece is that in Pasco, I had been there for a number of years, there was a number of families that kids had gone through my class and I was a half-decent teacher. I would say that on a given day, I could probably do fairly well. I had a relationship with kids and with staff and parents that made teaching not a job. Not a job. Because I don’t think teaching is a job. But I think teaching is about relationships, and out of that relationship, somebody turns out to be a little bit smarter when they leave than they were when they came into the classroom. Now that doesn’t just mean that the kids learn; I’ll tell you what, I’ve learned a lot from kids. I have kids that come and tell me about things that are happening in their lives and how they dealt with it that has allowed me to help someone else. Going back to Louisiana and schools being desegregated not having what I thought was going to be there, I stayed. And there were some opportunities where, I wasn’t looking for them, but I was fortunate enough to get into special programs where we was trying to help kids who was coming—even in Pasco, there was a desegregated plan. It was a grant from the state. And I keep in mind that this area is integrated but where people lived was segregated. And they came to school, when they came to school, they brought with them not only their bodies but their knowledge and their skills and their makeups, and in many cases there was conflicts, misunderstanding, between kids who was white and kids who was black. As simple as someone calling another person a name, a person not understanding that this person may not have had breakfast and is hungry. There was lots of small things that occurred and I was given the opportunity to put together and implement a project, and this project was to deal with desegregation that was in the Pasco school system. At that point, we began to take a serious look at changing the model that we had. Prior to that time, black kids that lived in a certain area went to the school in that certain area. Franklin: Right, earlier you had mentioned that for elementary, most of the—like, Whittier was the school for—because it was in east Pasco, right, and so it was predominantly black. Alford: Black, yes. So when we began to desegregate the schools in Pasco, then Whittier was eliminated as a school. And those kids—because there was a bus throughout Pasco—they was bussed to schools where the schools were located in an area where almost no blacks lived. And with that, they kids took with them their knowledge that background, their likes, their dislikes, their misunderstandings and there was some problems, some racial problems that occurred in those schools. I was given the opportunity to be able to try to resolve that. The strategy that we attempted to use wasn’t so much of the kids as it was to do things so that the parents would understand the differences that was happening. Which is a total different idea than just working with kids. Franklin: Was there a resistance to busing here? Alford: There was a resistance. Franklin: Could you talk—how did that take shape and how did you deal with it? Alford: Well, what happened is that kids who lived in the same area—you know, you buy a house in the area because the school is supposed to be a very productive school, and someone come to you and says I want your kid to move to a school that’s not performing—it’s a very hard sale. It’s a very difficult concept that parent who moved in that area is saying, wait, I moved here because of the school and now you’re telling me that you want to send my kid over here with Snuffy who is having difficulties. That’s not right. So the process was to sell a different concept. It wasn’t about where the school was located; it was what was in that school when you got there. If my kid is supposed to be attending this school, but he would get a better education on these particular subjects in this school, maybe we can talk. Maybe there’s—and that was what we attempted to do. We attempted to take the schools that had a particular population that had not been as successful and add to that school some things that made the school a magnet. Then you could ask parents, would you like for your kids to go here, versus tell the kids. And there’s a big difference between asking and telling. Franklin: Yes. How long did the busing continue? Alford: Until about ’66, if I remember correctly. There was a law in the State of Washington that came out, that allowed the school district to provide services without. What happened then the school district began to add different types of programs to different schools and began to consciously take a second look at boundaries. In other words if you have a gifted program here, any kid that wants to go to a gifted program can attend. It’s just located here. It’s not that you have to go there, but we have a gifted program here, we have a select program here, and we have another program here. Now you select a program for your kids. It’s about doing what’s best for kids. Franklin: Right, so you’re having schools focused on different areas and be magnets and stopping any kind of changing the model from schools reflecting the neighborhood which resulted in—because of housing policy, resulted in all white schools—mostly white schools and mostly black schools and the property tax differentials-- Alford: Haves and have-nots. Franklin: Okay, that was an attempt to kind of split that apart. Alford: Right. Franklin: Great. When you moved, you taught in Pasco, so you lived in Pasco, right? Alford: Right. Franklin: How would you describe life in the community when you got here in your early years here? Alford: When I first came? I guess when I first came, it was so different in the sense that each school was considered a separate entity in itself. The idea of kids having teachers who happen to be non-white was almost not existent. But the school district made some decisions of purposely looking for individuals who happen to be a minority or blacks that matched the population that we had here. What happened then is that those teachers were spread throughout the schools. Families and kids began to see, in their building, teachers who happen to be black. Not only—so you have black teachers, white teachers, and some Korean teachers—not very many, but you have some of other ethnic groups. One fella that, before we got married we lived together, we had like three of us, we needed an apartment. So it was easy to get an apartment on the teacher salary if you can divide the cost by three versus paying for it individually. All of a sudden we ended up, just by chance, one of the fellas was white, one was black—that was me—and the other one was Chinese, and we lived together. We lived in the same apartment. That made a difference. Because we were together, we went places together, we saw kids together, we talked about kids. That in itself at a high school level makes a difference. When you talk to a kid and the kid says, but he said or she said. But we were allowed to do some things that I think they would agree—the fellas—and I think that there were some teachers that were a part of the group at that time—I look back and we would invite—like there would be a fight this week between some white and black kids somewhere, it seemed like it occurred just—of differences. We would allow those kids to come where we stayed, we had a little barbeque. At that time, you could go down to the store you could get chicken for 15 cents a pound and you could get some SevenUps. So we invited the kids and many times we invited the kids who was involved in fights. And what would happen is just by talking to those kids and having those kids together, they became friends. In some cases we encouraged them to participate in athletics. But it was just a different time. Jeff Dong—I don’t know if I should call names but for the purpose of people wanting to know who they were, who was Chinese. Very good history teacher. If you love history, you would love Jeff; if you hate history you would’ve hated him, because he loved the subject. He was about 5’6’’, 5’7’’. Then there was Sam Hunt, who was very light complexion and blonde hair. Comes from a politician, born in Yakima, brought with him a whole different set of skills. And then me, little black-looking fella from the south. And Keith Boyd, you know that group? Maybe I shouldn’t have called names. But anyway, there were some kids that came through the system, that knew us, and we could go to games. We were supervising games, because our salary was very low as classroom teachers. Someone says, we need someone to chaperon a bus. Well, guess what? The three of us was always there, it was a way to make an extra dollar to take care of the rent. Then of course, we started getting married and that part dropped off and the wives took over. Franklin: So initially you rented the apartment with these—with your two other coworkers. Where did you rent? Alford: It’s Cartmill, oh, it’s in Pasco. I don’t know if I should’ve called the name, but it’s in Pasco. Franklin: East Pasco or west? Alford: No, it was in west Pasco. Probably, from Pasco High and that’s where we taught at, we were—one, two, three—about six blocks away from Pasco High. Franklin: Okay. Did you have any—because East Pasco had been prominently—was overwhelmingly African-American-- Alford: Right. Franklin: There had been some resistance, as you’ve mentioned earlier, in Kennewick and some parts in Pasco. Did you have any resistance or trouble finding a home or living west of east Pasco? Alford: Yeah, well, I’m not so sure how to answer that other than to say, I can remember looking for a place to live, and when we showed up—this is after I got married—showed up at the location where this apartment or house was, and the individual would come out and they would have kind of a look on their faces. I don’t know if it was just that I hadn’t combed my hair that day and I looked different, but I’ve had some walkthroughs in apartments where they say, okay, this is the bathroom and this—and you never stop. You just start, you go through and you end up back right outside the door there. But I think—I don’t think they were bad people; I just think there was word about what could happen to their property. There were cases where we would go to places and you got there and it had been rented. You call and make an appointment—but I just think there was just a degree of luck that sometime you just end up at places where they get rented earlier, sometimes the person is in a hurry because they have to go to a meeting or something. I don’t think they are bad people; I think that they just want things to be the way they’ve always been. And sometimes when we want to keep things the way they are, it creates a misunderstanding. So I don’t think they were bad people; I just think they were just concerned. Franklin: Was it a legitimate concern? Alford: From their standpoint, yes. In cases where you have misunderstanding, in cases where the only thing you know is bad about someone or bad about a situation, that’s all you know, you form a conclusion. In mathematics we tend to say that when you’re doing a proof in geometry, you take all the information and from that information, you come up with a conclusion. I think in the school system, anywhere you go, people collect information and from that information they come up with a conclusion. Sometimes the data doesn’t support it, but it’s the best decision that they can make. I think it’s unfortunate sometimes when you take the data and you put it together and you draw your conclusion and your conclusion doesn’t support—is not supported by your data. In geometry we say, we collect the data and based upon the data, we look for conclusion. But I think in a racial situations sometimes we forget that piece. Franklin: Did you attend church? Alford: Yes. Franklin: What church did you attend? Alford: Well, before I got married, I attended a Baptist church in Pasco. It was a short period of time. Franklin: Which one? Alford: It was called Mount Zion. Franklin: Okay. Alford: It was short-lived. I got married, and my wife was Catholic. My father told my wife and I, after we got married, he said, now, if you’re going to make the marriage work, you need to go to church together, you need to live together and you need to be honest together. When we came back, I talked to my wife, she was Catholic and she didn’t want to change her faith. I was Methodist and I didn’t know a lot about religion. I wasn’t headed in one direction. And so, for me, going to church with her was not a bad thing. As a result we went to the Catholic church, and even today in the Catholic church in Pasco the number of all blacks—I can’t tell you what it is—I would like to tell you that number—but it’s a very small number of us. So we go to church together. Family that attend church together, live together and do things together—sometimes I think it turns out to be okay. Franklin: Right, because most—the Baptist Church and Methodist Church were much more predominantly African-American in the Tri-Cities, right? Alford: Right. Franklin: Morning Star and New Hope. You had been brought up in the Methodist tradition? Alford: Yes. Franklin: What role—did the church play a special role in the black community? Alford: Yes, a very special role. It taught the importance of men—appreciating men. And what I mean by that is that there is a Supreme Being, and because of a Supreme Being, what we do and who we honor is that Supreme Being and all the other things are not that important. But relationships--if you go to a black church, when the service is over, if you want to see people hugging each other and showing affection for each other, it happens there. It’s not about I love this person, but it’s a religious belief that we are children of someone greater than men. So yes, it plays a significant role. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions that people brought from places they came from? Alford: Yep, one of the things that—I’ll take my family as an example. After church services, when I was growing up, families would get together. You would go to someone’s house, not so much to eat but the fellowship. It is something that connects individuals. You always have enough time to—you make time to form those relationships. I think those that came from southern states that were black, I think most of us came with the understanding that Sunday is a day you don’t work. It’s a day where—it’s a God day, just some things you don’t do, you don’t do them on a Sunday. It’s changing now, but when I was growing up, Sunday was a Sabbath day; it was a day devoted to our maker. You form relationships and you laugh and you cook. That part is slowly being dissolved. And as a result of that, I think that we are losing something that is very important. Franklin: Were there opportunities available here that were not available where you came from? Alford: Yes. Now in order for me to answer that question—it’s a two-part question. I came from a little small town. It was about so big. And I came to one that was bigger. In this little small city there is only five jobs, so the opportunity is for five people. In a larger city you had fifteen jobs, so fifteen different opportunities. Numbers make a difference. Conditions make a difference. I think opportunities in the State of Washington also, because of economics, because of education, because of businesses there are so many pieces that fit into a puzzle that it’s kind of hard to come up with a simple answer to it. Franklin: In what way were opportunities limited because of segregation or racism? Alford: To what extent? Franklin: Here, in Tri-Cities. For you or that you observed for others. Alford: I think, when I think of opportunities, if the playing field was equal, it doesn’t mean that the result will be equal. The reason that I mention that is that the experiences that individuals have—and I think that in many cases, economics plays a role. It plays a role in some cases where, because this person has not been able to do these types of things, they have not had this type of experiences. It can be as simple as never having the chance to drive because their family didn’t have a car. And there’s a job for a milk man. Now, this person may have an education that fulfilled the requirement, but because they do not have a car at home or because of the conditions, the scale is somewhat unequal, even though the two individuals have very similar skills, the one skill that the one doesn’t have is that one person doesn’t have the skills to drive. His education level may be higher, but because the lack of one skill, the job opportunity is zero. When I think of this whole educational piece and the whole thing that has happened in the Tri-Cities is the playing field is very difficult to make sure that it’s equivalent. Franklin: You mentioned when you moved here that Kennewick—you knew one black family there, but that was it. Did you have any interactions or any business in Kennewick? Any notable interactions with people from either Richland or Kennewick? Alford: When I first came? Franklin: Yeah. Alford: No, when I first came, no, there was only—I started to give a name, but it was just one black family that I could think of at that particular time that was here. And there probably was more, but I didn’t know them if they were. I think that makes a difference. I think it makes a difference. Franklin: What does? Alford: If you know people—for example, if you can consciously go back and think of relationships, opportunities, people getting along together—if you know someone, you can come to form a relationship. If you don’t have any contacts, you don’t know that person, the idea of forming a relationship doesn’t exist, regardless of how hard you try, it’s just not going to happen. When I first came here, for example, most of the individuals that I knew that happened to be black or African American at the time lived in Pasco, and most of them lived within a mile of each other and you probably had 90 percent of them, all right there together. If there was an activity in the black community, you saw the same population. But most of their activities was in the community that they lived. The idea of going outside of the community to talk to somebody, to see somebody, is almost zero. Franklin: Was the sign still on the bridge to Kennewick when you came here? Alford: Yeah, it was there. Franklin: Do you know what I’m talking about? Alford: Yeah, it was sign that said Out Before Dusk. That was on the old bridge. It was a green bridge at that particular time, now the cable bridge. Yep. Franklin: Do you remember seeing that sign? Alford: Yep. Franklin: How did that, you’d grown up in Jim Crow, you’d grown up in the situation where segregation was strict and it was legal. I think a lot of people’s perceptions of the North and the West is that it wasn’t the same system. How did seeing that sign make you feel? Alford: I don’t—to be honest with you, it didn’t bother me, because I didn’t really—maybe I wasn’t smart enough. I think sometimes, as they say, ignorance is bliss. You see the sign, it’s there, and after a period of time you don’t even see it again. You become immune to things around you. I think that’s what happens in communities sometimes is that things have existed for such a long period of time that no one can see that there’s anything wrong with it; it’s just the way things are. Franklin: Did you feel less welcomed in Kennewick because of that sign? Alford: Well, I didn’t—no, I didn’t. Because I had a brother who lived in Kennewick and I would go across the bridge to his house, and then, for the most part if we left and went somewhere and crossed that same bridge take a right and went to east Pasco. I don’t think I was smart enough at that particular time, and when I say smart enough, I don’t mean of a particular knowledge, but I think sometimes you become—you see things, and if you’re not very careful you say, it applies to others but not to me. There’s the other part of it is that sometimes the best way to deal with something is to tell yourself, guess what? It doesn’t pertain to me. Because if you allow those types of things to affect you, it also changes your behavior. And what happens in many cases is that one of the big racial problems that we have—when there’s a problem in race—for the most part, it’s a misunderstanding. One person misunderstood the other person. Whether it be words, whether it be actions, whether it be just one disposition. It causes problem. Franklin: Yeah. Did you spend much time in east Pasco? Was it a—did you have a social life there? Alford: Yeah, when I first came to Pasco, there was a tutorial program over there. And, oh, God, I’m trying to think of her name that ran this—I can see her face right now. Maybe I’ll come to the name a little bit later, but she ran a tutorial program for kids. Franklin: Is it Virgie? Alford: No, it wasn’t Virgie, it wasn’t Virgie. God, I can see her face right now. But she ran a tutoring program and I used to go over and teach. I loved going over there because all the kids from the community would come in and you’d work with them and some of those kids now are adults. I’m trying to think who was on the bus who would’ve been one of those kids. Franklin: You mean out to the—when we took the tour? Keith Barton? Alford: Yeah, Keith Barton’s sister, because Keith would’ve been real young at that time. But, yeah, we used to go over and have a tutoring program at night with and work with kids and we’d plan activities with them. It was just kind of a fun time, really, but it was a way of helping kids. I look back at it and I think that the sad part about it is that those tutoring programs did more than just tutor; it actually gave kids an opportunity to see what can be. Franklin: What do you mean? Alford: In a tutoring program, and I’m talking about math and science because that’s my background, if you’re really working with the kid on a tutoring program and let’s say doing fractions—it doesn’t have to be fractions; it can be percentages—it doesn’t matter. You can talk about how to apply this concept—for example, if you are working on percentages, and the kid is trying to figure out how to do percentages, teach the kid and say, you know what, take a candy ball and say, you know what, I’m going to divide this up with three people. If I divide this up into three pieces how many parts will I have? Okay, if I just take this one piece, what part is this? This is one out how many? Out of three. Oh, got it, you meant—how do you do that? You just got—that’s a fraction. Well, I wonder if we can make it into a decimal. I wonder what would happen if we divided three into the one, we’d got 0.3333. Let’s add all this threes together, oh my god. So, there’s a relationship between fractions and decimals. And now you can teach the concept that the teacher’s trying to get the kid to understand. So, I guess what I’m saying is that tutoring allows for relationships and also knowledge. It also gives the person the chance to think. And I think the tutoring program that we used to have over there was great, because you had the kids there, their parents came to pick up the kids so you got a chance to meet their parents. And the parents were so thankful. I can remember parent saying, oh, thank you very, very much, guess what, he did pass the test. Those little pieces—it’s not about money, it’s not about somebody like me, but it’s about the kid. The kid that wakes up one morning and says, you know what, this person made a difference in my life. That’s what education is all about. Franklin: Yeah. Hanford was such a pull factor for African Americans from World War II and beyond, into the Cold War. What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Alford: Well, I guess the only thing I knew—I took a class. In this class, that was one of the things that they talked about, was blacks working at Hanford. That was one of the pieces. But prior to that time, I didn’t—it was there. Franklin: What class was this? Alford: It was an educational class through Central Washington State University. It was called—let me think about it a minute and I’ll try to remember the class, because it’s been a long time. Franklin: From your perspective, what were African Americans’ most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights at Hanford? Alford: Okay, now repeat that once more for me. Franklin: From your perspective, what were African Americans’ most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Alford: Okay, let’s take the civil rights piece and Hanford. There was a—I’m trying to think of his name. There was one person, and hopefully the name will come to me, that lived in Richland who was a real advocate for blacks. Franklin: Are you talking about CJ Mitchell? Alford: Uh-unh, no, it wasn’t CJ. It wasn’t CJ. He was very active; he was really—I can’t think of his name. But he was involved. He would come to the East Pasco Neighborhood Council meeting, which was a group over in east Pasco, and participate in activities where they was trying to integrate something, or there’s a worker somewhere, somebody being mistreated, a police problem or whatever. He was always one of those individuals that wanted to make sure that people realized that their rights were being violated. Sorry, I can’t think of his name. I can see his face, but I can’t put a name with him. Franklin: Did he work at Hanford? Alford: Yeah, he worked out of Hanford, yeah. I may have to call you back and give you that name. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Alford: I don’t know lots about Hanford. Franklin: Okay, what about Tri-Cities? Alford: Okay, repeat the question then. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Alford: Okay. One was employment. Okay, and I can’t speak for Hanford, but employment was a big one. Schools in Pasco—that was a big one. So I would say employment, schools, police relationships. And school parent—school kids and relationship was another problem. For example, a kid would do something on the bus—he lived in east Pasco, and do something on the bus and the bus driver would put the kid off the bus because of his or her behavior. And I’m not saying the behavior they did was—it existed. But to put the kid off the bus was an answer—okay, it probably stopped the interaction between those two kids, but that meant somebody’s kid was on that bus that lived miles away. Franklin: Kid’s possibly in danger. Alford: Yes, if you did it today you could probably have a lawsuit. Franklin: Yeah. Alford: But at that particular time, it was he or she did whatever and they put him off. Parents at work, parents—I don’t know where the parent is, you know. Franklin: What actions were being taken to address the issues you just mentioned? The employment, schools and police relationships? Alford: They had an NAACP group that was here, and they attempted to deal with some of it. I would say the East Pasco Neighborhood Council probably they did a better job than those. They had numerous people who was the head of it, but a lady by the name of Kita Barton probably—and I hate to say this because it may not be totally correct—but I think she had a greater impact than anyone that I can think of. Franklin: That’s Keith Barton’s mother, right? Alford: That’s Keith Barton mother. Franklin: Yeah, he talked quite a bit about her in his oral history. Alford: Yeah, the lady, she had a way with words. She was the nicest person in the world, but she was very intelligent lady. Then there was another lady by the name of Mrs. Upton. I can remember the meeting we had was—there was an incident that had occurred where an African American was involved and we had asked the police officer and the Mayor to come and talk to us. They were talking, and so Sister Upton raised her hand. She stood up and she made a comment—one that I think about quite often. She said, I brought a tablet and I brought a pencil to write down all the important things that you’ve said tonight. And she said, I don’t have anything on my paper. What I learned through that comment that she made is that sometimes we talk, but there’s nothing to write down. Franklin: It’s just empty words. Alford: Yes, yeah. And I think about that—when I am trying to talk to somebody, I think of Sister Upton and whether she would have said, Mr. Alford, I have my paper and my pencil, but I don’t have anything written down. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What were some noticeable successes, of the issues you mentioned? Alford: I think that there’s probably five or six. I think one of the successes is that the individual was able to convince members of the school board that we had to make changes in the school system. And part of those changes happened to be taking a look at where kids are being bused to, and what types of opportunities are available to them. That was one piece. I think the second piece was a part where individuals within the community began to participate. And so people began to be a part of the city council or be a part of a group. And then police department did something about bringing on an African American on the police force, which I’m sure he probably caught lots of problem. But it made a difference in the sense that it was somebody that you could go and at least talk to. Not that he could give you answers, but just to say, did you know. Franklin: Well, and just that there was someone that looked like you on the police force. Alford: Right. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges in getting movement on the civil rights issues here? Alford: I think they’re still there. Maybe not to the same extent. I think one is education, because what was happening there is that kids were being bused to a school outside of the area that they live in. Teachers who was teaching in the schools lived outside of the area where the kids are coming from. And sometimes in order to understand someone, you have to understand a little bit about the person. If you can’t visualize, for example, and I’ll give you an example—I was in middle school and I remember one day, this kid did something at school and I decided to take this kid home and talk to the parents. At that particular time I didn’t realize that men should not—I don’t know—there probably was a rule, but I didn’t know it, that a man shouldn’t be with a girl without another woman. Anyway, I got this kid I put in the back seat there in the car and took her home to talk to her mother. I get there, knock on the door, the parents come out, and I say, I brought your daughter here. She was in a fight today. I said, this is—I forgot how many fights this kid had been in—I said, you’ve got to stop it. Come on in, Mr. Alford. I went in. She said want some coffee? I said, no, I’ll have some water. So she brought me water. We sit down and we spent that time just talking. And for the first time I recognized why the girl was having some difficulties. Part of the reason for the difficulties that was occurring was because mom was giving one impression of the school and that was impacted in the way the girl was reacting in school. There were times when parents came and negatively impact their kids. So, it’s not always negative, but there are some cases. Franklin: Yeah. Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Alford: Directly? Well, I don’t know how to answer this, but I’ll just tell you what I’ve done. Franklin: Okay. Alford: I’ve done little marches, for example, where—like in east Pasco where we used to have concerns about what was going on with African Americans or whatever—when we had little marches, I participated in those. Cases where somebody was in jail, was mistreated, I’d help them go down and talk to people in the city about those types of behavior. In the school system—because I was in the school system, I could actually go to the superintendent, and not have to—or go directly to the board and talk to them about seeing things that happened. But I have not been one of those individuals who have ever planned an event for others to participate in. I always felt that—my father told me this, so forgive me—this is one of those pieces where he said, if you want something done, do it yourself. If you give it to someone else, they may or may not do it. My belief is that anytime something occurs that you think is inappropriate, first try to do it yourself and if you can’t do it yourself, then you talk to others as your last resort. Franklin: Those are all important things that you mentioned. You know, civil rights encompasses so many different activities. How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts in the Tri-Cities? Alford: I think that when you think of people being elected to office or people in certain positions and you see things happening on TV where you see somebody has done somebody incorrectly and so now you’re have a community meeting to deal with the same type of issue in Pasco. I remember having to go to a meeting where the city manager was meeting with a group of blacks about some things that was going on the city. And there was a lady who was so much smarter than me, I wish I had never thought of it. She stood up and she said, I have this piece of paper and I have this pencil—and I hope I haven’t told you this already, but if I have, forgive me. Franklin: I think—no one said anything important, so I haven’t written anything down yet? Alford: Right. Okay. From that piece to the next piece that happened after he gave his—he started up again. The second piece that happened is the lady that came up to him and said to him, I think we know what you want to do. And he says, okay, let’s do it. She said, what we are going to do—we’re going to send you home and you’re going to talk to the police about this and you’re going to come back. And then everybody got up and we left. I think it was the most effective thing I’ve ever seen in a community meeting. Very simple, straightforward, and it made a difference. Franklin: From your perspective and experience what was different about civil rights efforts here compared to the national movement? Alford: What was the difference between here and the national? I really don’t know what the biggest difference was between those two, other than the size of the national group. But I think it was just at a smaller scale—duplication. The people were different of course. Yeah, the people are different so you’re going to have different remarks, but very similar, very similar. Franklin: Okay. Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and how they have impacted your life in the Tri-Cities? Alford: I think they made me a better person. I think I’m the most blessed person, probably in the Tri-Cities. Yeah. I came here for a teaching job, and I was blessed enough to have been able to work with students from a classroom teacher, to a coordinator, to the administrator, including being the principal. I was blessed because I had those opportunities. And I think I learned more from the kids than they would ever learn from me. I learned more from the parents than the parents would ever learn from me. At the end of the day, if we would just sit down together, I think we would agree that the major accomplishment that was made is that we put in the time to make a difference. Time is important. Sometimes I think people merely go to meetings just to garble and then they go home, but they never take the time to sit a little bit and understand what’s really going on. These kids are now adults and grandparents and it’s a little scary that they all came along. But I was blessed. I have been extremely blessed. I got my undergraduate degree and I’ll just back up just a little bit, why somebody, somewhere up there had blessed me. There was a fella named Dr. Gabriel—well, let me start from the beginning and see if it makes a little bit of sense to you. I decided one day that I was going to leave, that I was going to go elsewhere. And I had a chance to talk to the superintendent. And a few days later he came back and said he’d had an idea, and he offered me a different job. That job gave me a chance to work with a fellow who was at Central Washington State at the time, and a little bit later on there was a fellow who worked out at WSU; I got sent to work for him for a period of time. At the end of my school career, the fellow that was at Central, Dr. Gabriel, my boss—I was his boss. The fella at WSU, at the end of my career, he retired and came back to work a program with me. I look at those experiences and I think back through it—for example, when I was working on my masters—I did my master’s degree I turned it in, they go through and they check all this little things and tell you that you need to make this changes in it. One of the fellows that was on my committee, as I was leaving he came out and he said to me, hey, I know what you’re going to do. Now, it’s probably not going to make lots of sense—it’s not going to make lots of sense to you. It’s Dr. Gabriel, the fellow that I was working for was the dean of the school at Central at the time. He said, you’re going to go home and you’re not going to turn this in. I know, he said. Because he asked me, he said,—no, no, no, no. Let me back up—let me back up just a little bit. I had gone in—and this is for my masters, you go in and you present all your information and you show them your little package that you have, and he wanted a copy of it. And he said—because what had happened is that, when I turned in my thesis—I didn’t realize that this is the way it goes—you go in—he wanted to go step by step—so, he gave me the—he said, this is what you’re going to have to have this, this, this, and this. And I didn’t know at the time that you’re supposed to finish this, you take it into—he’s supposed to take a look at it and see if it’s okay, and then you go to the second chapter and you do it and when you get through, you put it all together. I thought, since we had agreed on the topic, that I could just go ahead and do it all and then bring it in. I didn’t—seriously. I did not know that you’re going to compile it all your research data to support your idea, you submit that, they look at it—I didn’t know that. I just thought you go and do what you’re supposed to do and bring it in complete. So, he said to me I know you’re angry, you are going to take it home, you’re going to throw it away, you’re not going to come back. He was right, that was exactly what I planned to do. And he said, it’s not a good time right now, you need to do this. So I went back, got another topic, did my review of my literature, went in to talk to him. The next step, and went in and talked to him. And I turned it in, but at the end he looked at it, and I can still remember, he said, I really like this. Take it down and get it bound and bring us back a copy because I want to use it with my students, and we’ll use it as a model. I was walking out the door, and Dr. Gabriel came up and he said, no. I said, what? He said, I know what you’re going to do, you’re going home because you hate the bum-bum-bum and won’t make a copy. He said, but you’ll be sorry someday if you don’t, because you’ll move to Central one of these days you’ll want to show it to your kids and your grandkids and you won’t have a copy of it. He said, but the decision is yours. And I thought about that the many times—he was right. That’s exactly what I did, and as a result of that, I never got my little master’s degree in my little folder in Ellensburg. I guess what I’ve learned through all of this is that sometimes the winner loses. But then sometimes you can smile and say that’s one he didn’t get. But I’ve been blessed though; I’ve had some real neat opportunities. In fact, I even had a chance to teach here one summer. And that’s so funny because Dr. Gabriel, who was on my committee, was no longer working here. I got a job working one summer here and I don’t know why they thought—I think they got me mixed up with someone else and they didn’t want to hurt my feelings. But then I hired Dr. Gabriel to work with me. So, I guess what I’m saying is that, if we take a serious look of all of the things that had happened to people, many, many times, I think those experiences don’t have to be negative. Those hardships don’t have to be negative. Sometime, you can come out as a winner. Franklin: Great. Well, Clarence, thank you so much for that and thank you so much for the interview. Alford: Well, you’re more than welcome, you know. I appreciate the opportunity and if you find one or two little ideas that you want to put on a piece of paper, good luck. But it’s going to be hard; you’re going to have to look real hard. Franklin: No, I’m not going to have to look hard at all. But thank you; that was a great interview. Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1968- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Clarence Alford Subject The topic of the resource Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) African American universities and colleges Migration Civil rights Teaching School integration Civil rights movements Description An account of the resource Clarence Alford moved to Pasco, Washington in 1968 and taught for the Pasco School District for many years. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/17/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F56b90a01188132f85829e495d7c782be.png 9338734991302e4f3254e8bc8c00563c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F29dc51cce821886dd8fe895d7d81e06a.mp4 298d6a9212f92968d15182ab0928f171 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Abercrombie Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay, we are rolling. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with John Abercrombie on July 23, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with John about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? John Abercrombie: Okay. John C. Abercrombie. Last name is A-B-E-R-C-R-O-M-B-I-E. Franklin: Great. And John is--? \ Abercrombie: J-O-H-N, common spelling. Franklin: Great, thank you. So, John, let’s start by talking about your life before Hanford. Abercrombie: Okay. Franklin: Where and when were you born? Abercrombie: I was born October 29, 1944, 6:20 P.M. Franklin: Okay. Abercrombie: At the Spartanburg General Colored Hospital. Franklin: And where is Spartanburg? Abercrombie: Spartanburg is in South Carolina. Franklin: Okay. Spartanburg General Colored Hospital. Abercrombie: Yes, and that’s what’s stated on the birth certificate. Franklin: Right. Because the South—you were born into segregation. Abercrombie: Yes, I was, very much so. Franklin: Correct. And so Spartanburg was a segregated town. Abercrombie: Absolutely. Franklin: Can you talk about that? What was—how was the town laid out and where—what were African Americans restricted from doing or being--? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] Restricted from doing almost everything. In the black community, you had all stratas of economic involvement, because you were not allowed to live in white neighborhoods. The school that I attended, the elementary school that I attended when I first started was closed because it was condemned. The new school was approximately 100, 150 yards from my house. Yet there were white students living closer to the school who were bussed to a white school, and I had students that lived further away that had to pass two white schools in order to get to the black school. So it was a very segregated community. We had two black police officers that were not allowed to arrest any white people. They could call on another officer, and if he decided to, he would; otherwise it did not happen. In South Carolina, it was not until the mid—or actually the late ‘40s before the black teachers were paid the same as the white teachers. They had larger classrooms, they had less facilities, and obviously the buildings were not the same quality. So that was the type-thing that you had. We had the segregated buses; you were not allowed to sit in front of any white person. They did not have the sign designating that, but if some white person sat three-quarters of the way back, you’d have people basically hanging out the window because you could not sit in front of any person like that. The movie theaters, I never sat on the main floor of a movie theater until I came to Richland, because that’s the way it was in most of the places there. Looking back, I think most people do not understand and realize what you were put through, and what people suffered in order to do that. Jobs were restricted. And you had people that had done very well in school who were not allowed into jobs that basically paid a decent wage. People could not buy houses, because the banks would allow you more money to buy a car than they would a house. So basically, the typical of many of the Southern communities that were there. So. In the schools, basically, for every one dollar they would spend on a black kid, they would spend ten on a white student. Part of the Brown v. Board involved a case out of the area around Orangeburg, South Carolina, in which some students were walking nine miles a day each way to school. The parents asked for a bus; the school district refused. The parents bought a bus, asked for fuel. They also were denied that. And they ended up filing suit over that. Charles Hamilton Houston, who was one of the professors in charge of the law school, was kind of a techie. He went down and he photographed many of the schools that were utilized by the blacks. In many cases you could sit in the classroom and look through the wall to the outside. Some of the schools had outhouses. Some of them didn’t even have outhouses. And he also photographed some of the white classrooms, and there was a very distinct difference. That played a very large role in the case of Brown v. Board. And I won’t go into Brown v. Board. Oliver Brown and his daughter, his six-year-old daughter, had to walk past a white school, had to go through a railroad switching yard at the hours of school, which in the winter were dark, and then walk a mile to catch a bus to go to a white school—I mean, to a black school. So those were the types of things that many people had to put up with. Franklin: Brown v. Board effectively desegregated schools in 1950—? Abercrombie: I believe it was ’54. Franklin: How did that affect you? Abercrombie: It did not have much effect directly. As a result of that case, they were starting to build better schools. Actually, part of the South Carolina decision was that—not to integrate the schools, but that the schools should be equal. Not just in air quotes, but should be equal, which would have cost them a fortune. So the school that I went to in second grade, which was much superior to the one that I went to in first grade. Although I’m in the heart of the city, we didn’t have restrooms on the different levels of the school. It was a two-story school. You had to go outside and down into the basement in order to use it. But we even had restrooms in the classrooms in that building. Most of the schools that we used had been torn down because the quality of the school, the building, was not the same. Basically, nothing was equal. The principal of our elementary school had a PhD, and one of the few if not the only one in the district. So we had crosses burned on the schoolhouse lawn, similar to what happened when I went to college. I went to an integrated college. We did have one white student there. And it’s an interesting story how he got there. He actually attended a Ku Klux rally when they were talking about what they were going to do to this guy if they ever found him. Not to be outdone, we doubled our white enrollment the next year and had two white students. Franklin: Which college was this? Abercrombie: Livingstone College in Salisbury, North Carolina. Franklin: And is that an HBC? Abercrombie: HBCU. Historically Black College and University. Livingstone and Biddle University, which is now John C. Smith, played the first intercollegiate football game between black colleges. And so, John C. Smith is located in Charlotte, North Carolina, and Salisbury is about 40 miles away in Salisbury. Started as Zion Wesley Institute in 1879 and changed its name to Livingstone in 1887. During the time that I attended was sponsored by the AMEZ Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church. And it played a very important role in my life. Franklin: What did you study at Livingstone? Abercrombie: Cutting class. No. Actually, I was a chemistry major. Franklin: Chemistry major. And did you graduate from--? Abercrombie: Yes, I did. Franklin: How did a white—this is a little off-topic, but I’m just very curious. How did a white student end up at a HBCU? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] He was traveling by train. He was actually going to Livingston, Alabama. He started talking to some students on the train, and they said they were going to Livingstone. Well, he thought they were going to the town that he was going. So he basically got off the train with them. They had treated him so well, he said he liked the place, and so he actually enrolled. So that’s how he got there. Kind of an interesting story, but that’s how we ended up with him there. You find that we were not closed as a society. I remember one of the restaurants in—I guess you could call it “restaurant;” more of a hot dog stand—in Spartanburg, it had two entrances: one white and one colored. There’s a line that ran up the floor, up the wall, up the ceiling, and back down. We could not cross that line; they could if they wanted to. But the separate water fountains, they had refrigerated water; we had just a bubbler coming out. So it was the typical thing that sometimes people today don’t realize what was going on back then. Franklin: How did you hear about Hanford? Abercrombie: I heard about it from my college classmate, who was also a chemistry major, who interviewed in, I think, New York or somewhere, and actually came out the year before I did. I took an interview, got an offer for a job, came out sight unseen. I’m one of those people that looked in the encyclopedia, saw Evergreen State, and figured I’d be in tall trees and snow up to my armpits all year. I think when I first got here it was in excess of 100 degrees for the first 17 days and stuff. You know. So I got that one wrong, but it worked out very well for me, because our kids were in a very good school system. My daughter actually went back to the school that her mother and I had attended and has done well for herself. My son went to West Point, graduated from West Point. And he has two sons now currently at West Point. The oldest is majoring in chemical engineering; the second one is in the law program at West Point. He has a third son who is kicking on the football team for Mountain Point in Phoenix, Arizona, and has a couple of more records to wipe out to get his brother off the record book, eclipse him on the record book there. Franklin: Wow, that’s really wonderful. So you interviewed for—who did you interview with? What company did you--? Abercrombie: Actually, I interviewed with Isochem. Isochem was US Rubber and Martin Marietta. I interviewed with Bill Watson in Nashville, Tennessee. That was the closest he was coming to the area, and I drove from Spartanburg. The weather was bad, so I had to drive south to Atlanta and then up 75 to Nashville. Interviewed with him, got an offer for a job here. I filled out paperwork for my security clearance. It was approved just before I got here, so when I came here I had a Q clearance and went to work at the PUREX facility in 200-East Area. Franklin: Oh, great. What were your first impressions when you arrived? Abercrombie: What the hell have I gotten myself into? Understanding that I thought this was the Evergreen State, I came through what is now Interstate 84 to 82, and came in near the Boise-Cascade plant, which at the time did not have the filters on and stunk to high heaven. I had not been in many places that did not have trees. So I thought, you know, this must be what it’s like to land on the moon. So I got here. When we got to Richland, I stayed with my friend when we looked for houses. That was a different experience for me, because we would see an ad for a house, we’d call, oh, you’re the first person to call! And, we’ll meet you there in 30 minutes! And we get there—you know, somebody just pulled up 15 minutes ago and rented the house. So, sorry about that. I even had one gentleman tell me that I’d go bankrupt if I rented the house, buying furniture. And that’s kind of interesting because he ended up working for me a while later, and I never mentioned it to him. Franklin: Oh, man. Abercrombie: But those are the type things that you ran into. Which didn’t seem strange to me, because I’m coming from the South, and I guess didn’t have any expectations of much different. Franklin: Right. Where did you end up staying? Where did you—did you end up—you obviously ended up getting a house somewhere. Abercrombie: I ended up—the first house that we moved into was on Gilmore. Gilmore I don’t think is there anymore. It was between Gilmore and Gribble, basically right off of Jadwin, a block over from Jadwin, there were some apartments there, two-story apartments. 1107 Gilmore, Apartment 8 is where we started off, and then moved into an A house later. Then moved to another A house, and then finally bought a prefab before moving to south Richland. But anyway. Franklin: What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Abercrombie: I’d come from the South, you know, where basically all black neighborhoods. Not that people are different or that we saw them any different, but I’m now in a completely different environment. Looking for somebody that had shared experiences was sometimes difficult, because there were not very many black people here. They were starting to open for professional people. I think that that year we had, I don’t know, six, seven people come in. Some of the other contractors were starting to bring people in. So it was kind of a unique thing, I guess, looking back on it. Part of it had to do with race, part of it had to do with age. Because most of the people here were older and established. I don’t think that it was a racist thing as such, because we were all finding ourselves, opening our wings, finding opportunities for employment. When I’d been in the South, one of the reasons that I came out here is because I never even got a response from the companies that I had applied with back there. The interviews were somewhat limited on my part, but strictly on my part, because I worked as a journeyman bricklayer before I went to college. My intent was to go into home construction and other work. I was going to build and sell houses. So I came out here, because having a degree in chemistry, I figured that it would be good to have some experience should I need to go back into chemistry, should something happen to me physically in construction. So that was kind of the idea that I had. I would come out here and I was going to work for three years and I was going to go back. At the end of three years, I was offered the opportunity to go into supervision. I said, well, if I’m going to run a company, this is a good thing to do. So I stayed. And then I’m thinking about leaving again, I had a chance to go in as the equal opportunity coordinator and write the Affirmative Action plan. Well, if I’m going to go into management of some sort, this is not going to hurt me at all. So I stayed for that. Then, I did not want to do that as a life’s work, because I thought, at that time, foolishly, that that would be a limited opportunity. Because I thought that once we had the opportunities to do things then that would kind of go away. The opportunity came to go into labor relations, came along. So I went into labor relations and did a lot in human resource area. That opened up another opportunity to get into law enforcement. I worked as a Benton County reserve deputy for 28 years. So, we—finding different opportunities and exploring different things as we go along. Franklin: Oh, shucks, I just lost my question. Abercrombie: So, you’re not the only one. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No. No, not at all. Oh, I remember. What year did you come out? Abercrombie: I came out in 1967. Franklin: 1967, okay thank you. Abercrombie: Actually arrived in Washington June the 20th and went to work June 21st. Franklin: Hey, that’s exactly the same day that I started my job at Hanford. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Although that was in 2015. Abercrombie: Okay. Franklin: So a little bit later. But same—I remember that day very well. So, how would you describe life in the community in Richland when you were—you know, in the ‘60s when you were here. ‘60s and early ‘70s. Abercrombie: There were many aspects of it that were very good to me. Because, like I said, I was in a professional capacity. Kind of a homebody. So I did not get around a lot. Was not a social butterfly, getting around. The opportunities were there. It was a little bit limiting personally because, coming from a small school, you’re going up and competing against people that have been to University of Washington and the University of God-knows-whatever, but large institutions. You come into an area and you’re looking to compete against these people. But I think the biggest aspect and biggest thing that I had learned was how to do research, how to find out information. The first job that I got was trying to look for an electro-potentiometric determination of uranium in feedstock, and most of the information that I needed was in German. But fortunately Battelle had translators that were able to get the information. So, I felt quite at home, being able to get involved and just completely dive into the work. My wife later went to work and worked with the Department of Corrections. In fact, at one time she was a psychiatric social worker on death row at Walla Walla. But— Franklin: Wow. Abercrombie: But these are all things that we had no vision of before we left. Franklin: These were opportunities that weren’t present for you in the South, or likely not present for you. Abercrombie: Likely, very likely not present, yes. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Abercrombie: One of the things that I did was played flag football. We had a local team that played for many years together. And I guess I did a little bit of hunting, a little bit of fishing. Other than that, it was—I didn’t get into motorcycle riding until 1973. At this point, I’ve probably got about 300,000 miles riding around the Northwest on motorcycle. I tell people that because doing labor relations, I would occasionally jump in with the train crew, because I wanted to find out what the various jobs were about. So I tell people that I’ve driven a train and flown a plane. Because when my son was at West Point and called home one Wednesday and said he was going to jump school, I said, that’s great, but you won’t jump before I will. I think I did my first jump that Saturday. Not bad for a guy that’s afraid of heights, but—went ahead and did that. Motorcycle riding, another place that I goofed up, because I thought that would be a great weight loss program, because I figured that I’d travel around and wouldn’t be welcomed at any place to eat, so I’d get out there and go days without eating or something. But that turned out not to be the case, so— Franklin: [LAUGHTER] When you moved here, the largest amount of African Americans lived in east Pasco. Abercrombie: Yeah. Franklin: Did you spend any time in east Pasco? Did you have any connections— Abercrombie: Yes, I did. Franklin: --to the African American community? How did you forge those connections? Abercrombie: Well, for one thing, you need to go to a barber. Well, I was not—I didn’t know that anybody could cut my hair that was not familiar with it, so you’re going over there. You meet people. I find that in many places that you go, the migration of blacks has been people that know each other that go somewhere and get something started. For example, I had a friend that was here that moved to Los Angeles. I rode the motorcycle down to Los Angeles, and while I was there, we went around and met people. Well, he’s from Texas. So he can tell you just about everybody from Texas that’s there. And if you read The Warmth of Other Suns, you’ll see how some of this migration took place. My uncles from Union, South Carolina went to Aliquippa, Pennsylvania. And so people from Union had a tendency to go there because they knew somebody there. I look at it now, and I look at the fact that my roommate came here and I ended up coming as well. Because I had no idea that this place existed, had no idea what it might be like. That was not on my radar when I started looking for jobs, because I looked for jobs in the neighborhood and in the area that I was in and areas that I had been exposed to. So it was very limited. In fact, the choice of chemistry versus chemical engineering came down to the fact that I really was not aware that there were chemical engineers. So in many cases you’re limited by what is around you. I had seen the opportunities because my best friend was one house away. His father was a doctor. He had a very nice home, but he could not build it anywhere except in our neighborhood. Because nobody would have, one, sold him the land; there were a lot of restrictions on who you could sell land to, even if you had the money. And so, the community that I came from was pretty much self-contained. My father was a teacher, taught for 42 years in the Spartanburg School District. My mother taught for ten years before she opened a restaurant. So I was around a lot of teachers and that type. But I was around everybody, because when she opened a restaurant, everybody came there. So, that’s kind of the atmosphere that I was raised in. When she started the restaurant, people had said, it’s not going to be successful because you don’t sell beer. She had her mindset, and that wasn’t what she was going to do, so, you know, it was a pretty healthy atmosphere to grow up in. And when I had children, I think that it was a very good atmosphere for the children. The school districts were very good and we didn’t have—there were problems here, but I didn’t have to face them every day. Franklin: What sorts of problems? Abercrombie: Typical problems. It may be difficult to kind of explain. But the first time my daughter, that I knew of my daughter being called out of her name was here in Richland. It was one of our neighbors. When I went to work in the laboratory—I’m not trying to be funny, but I had people say, you’re not like the rest of them. Rest of “them”? Who is “them”? So I asked, and they said, well, you know—and they didn’t know how to say black, colored, negro, whatever. So they would almost choke to death trying to tell me that I wasn’t like most black people. And I’d say, well, who do you know? Well, I really don’t know anybody. So it became apparent that they were getting their information from stories, second-hand, third-hand, the stereotypes that you saw in the movies, that you saw on TV, and whatever. So as you’re going into a situation like this, you’re coming in to be a professional, but you have people that believe that you’re not. So you’re having to overcome stereotypes. And that’s happening in many, many places. When I worked in equal employment opportunity, for example, would have people that wanted to terminate somebody because of attendance. And I would look at the unit and see what’s there, and find out that they had people that had worse attendance than the person that they wanted to fire. So, as you’re talking to them, well, that’s so-and-so’s nephew. What’s that got to do with anything? But you have attitudes that develop. When I was in that particular aspect, we had a guy that was a janitor, wanted to become a chemical operator. And so they went on a stereotype. Well, he’s so big that he can’t get his hands together. Well, the guy was mopping, and he’s strong enough, he could just sling the mop around and do it with one hand. They thought I was out of town and they were going to give him a test. They put him in two pair of coveralls, put him in boots and rubber gloves, and wanted him to go up some 20, 30 feet on a ladder. And if you think that it’s unsafe, why would you do that? They didn’t require that with anybody else. So you’re finding that a lot of attitudes that people have are preconceived and the South has no handle on discrimination. But a lot of the people came up here. In fact, I was talking to an individual Sunday who came here in ’41. And I asked him specifically because I’ve heard of Kennewick being a sundown city. A sundown city is a city in which black people are supposed to get the heck out of town before the sun goes down. I’ve heard a lot of information of people that say yes, and he confirmed this. I’ve heard at one time there was signs that basically stated this, but I’ve not found anybody that has specifically seen those signs. I know, as of later research, that Oregon was established as a white state, and at one time, it was against the law and you could be beaten for being in Oregon if you were not one of the people grandfathered in—which is another racist situation—at sunset. So a lot of these things I only found out later that existed. So. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events? In the African American community? Abercrombie: Particular events. I will tell you the first time I heard about Juneteenth. Because there are a lot of people that came up from Texas. In South Carolina, I knew absolutely nothing about Juneteenth. When I first heard about Juneteenth, I was somewhat taken back, somewhat offended, because a couple of things that happened as you’re growing up. You never hear anything about the accomplishments of black people. It’s very limited. And normally that’s reserved for talking about George Washington Carver and a few other people. But most people have no idea of the accomplishments of George Washington Carver. They associate him with the peanut. The way that he got associated with the peanut is a story in and of itself. But what he did, in terms of a scientist—in fact, when George Washington Carver first went to college, he went to Highland College and was accepted on the basis of his work in high school. But when he got there—and he had saved money and was able to take care of himself financially—when he got there, they said, oh, we didn’t know that you were black. Bye. So he was distraught over this. He went to work. He was always a worker. And he worked for some people who encouraged him to go back. George Washington Carver then goes back to Simpson College, and at Simpson, most people have no idea what he was majoring in. But George Washington Carver majored in art and piano, and was very talented at both. But one of his instructors, Etta Budd, said, George, we really don’t think that a black man can earn a living in art and piano. And her husband was at Iowa State University, encouraged him to go there and work in botany. He worked with some of the great soil scientists of the era. In fact, one of his classmates became the secretary of agriculture in one of the administrations. But they don’t talk about the fact that he had very strong friendships with Thomas Edison, with Henry Ford. In fact, when he was at Tuskegee and had trouble getting to his laboratory on the second floor, Ford sent engineers down and said you put in an elevator for him. Very close relationship. When, during the war, World War II, when metal was in short supply, he worked with Ford and they developed a plastic body for a car. Ford demonstrates it by hitting it with a sledge hammer and not damaging that car body. When rubber was in short supply, he made synthetic rubber. When we were having difficulty dying our clothes and dying a lot of other things because we used aniline, which came from Germany—we’re at war with Germany—we couldn’t even dye our uniforms. So he went up, and as a young aspiring artist, he had to develop his own pigments, he had to develop dyes. He knew how to do this and he came up with a full—excuse me—palette of colors to do this. And we think all this man did was made peanut butter? You know, an elephant stepping on a peanut makes peanut butter. This man was a chemist. He was a scientist. He did many, many things. In addition to the peanut, he worked with soybeans, he worked with sweet potatoes, he worked with lots of other things. And part of his demise was due to the fact that when he was traveling and speaking he could not get a sleeper car because of his color of his skin. And I’m sure that added to the difficulty that he had in getting around. But we don’t make mention of many of the contributions he’s made, and he is by far not the only person that’s made significant contributions to this society. Franklin: Did you attend church? Abercrombie: Yes, I did. Franklin: What church did you attend? Abercrombie: Still attending. I was there Sunday. Actually, Richland Baptist Church on G-W Way. Which is right down the street. Now, when I came to Richland, it was my intent that I was going to live fairly close to work and I would be involved in the community that I was there. It was quite a while before I fully understood everything that was available in east Pasco. Probably would have attended the church there, but I made a decision on this one earlier. The people were friendly enough, and so my wife and I joined-- Franklin: Okay. Abercrombie: --that church. I think we joined in 1968. So I guess technically we’ve been members for 50 years. Franklin: Wow. Do you recall any family activities, events or traditions, including sports and food, that African Americans brought from the places that they came from? Abercrombie: Again, I’ll go back to east Pasco. There was Jack’s Tavern, and there was the Paradise Inn, which I think Joe Jackson and Webster Jackson had started. I remember buffalo fish, which I had not eaten, you know, prior to coming out here. Franklin: Buffalo fish? Abercrombie: Yeah. I think it’s a member of the carp family; in fact, it used to get flown in, and they used to, you know, they used to have that. As you develop friendships, you share food, break bread with people. I used to have a fairly good-sized New Year’s Eve party. I’d go through quite a few chitlins and hog maws and stuff of that nature, which is some of the things we were grown up with. You soon start looking at markets. You find that people have a tendency to congregate around things that they are familiar with. Race just being one of those things. Because, as a motorcycle rider, I found that there were a number of people that rode who were professional people, and we had similarities there. Same brand of motorcycle would sometimes be in this corner, professions would be over here. But when race is involved, it makes things stand out, and sometimes when you don’t know, and you’re walking into a strange situation, that may be the thing that makes the attraction. So, yeah, we went through those situations. I found that as a motorcycle rider—I was a member of Hill & Gully Motorcycle Club, it was an American Motorcycle Association, and we traveled around to different places. So, there were dentists, there were lawyers, there were whatever. I had a tendency to spend more time with them than I did some of the railroad workers or some of the other things. Although, because of the width and breadth of the knowledge that I picked up here, I was able to fit in there as well. Franklin: Were there—we already kind of talked about this, but I just wanted to ask this direct question, these next two questions. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where you came from? Abercrombie: I’d have to say yes. Because there were very, very limited opportunities there. I’ve seen people that had great skills. And one of my passions at this point is trying to let people know that they have passions and talents beyond that which they have seen. Some of the best students that I attended high school and college with did not have opportunities to utilize those skills. If you look at, I believe the book is The First Class which talks about the Dunbar High School—or the Dunbar School in Washington, DC, a lot of very famous people came through Dunbar. But in some cases, you found that there were PhDs that were teaching elementary school, not because that’s what they aspired to do, but in many cases that’s what they were limited to do. I think one of the reasons is that we have a disparity in education is because of the fact that people have gone to school, they have exceled at school, but when they went to look for opportunities to show or display their skills, they never had a chance. They never got into the batter’s box. They didn’t have a chance to swing for the fences. Because it was not there. And that has impacted this country for decades, and actually centuries. Because when we look back at some of the earlier accomplishments that people have made, you know, it’s astounding. I think we get into a standoff position, because I think many white people feel that we hold every one of them responsible for slavery. Most people did not own slaves. And we also find that there are black people that owned slaves. William Ellison in South Carolina had over 60 slaves. He was a gin maker and gin repairman. And it’s an interesting story what happened to him after the—during and after the Civil War. Because he supplied goods as a businessperson to the Confederacy and after the Confederacy when the economy was starting to go again, they actually passed laws that prevented black people from competing against white people in terms of even seeking business. And so we get into the situation that the remnants of which still hang with us today. And so, people move around, attitudes go, and a lot of the attitudes people have, they don’t even know where they came from. It’s what you were born with, what you were raised with, what you were—what you saw. And as I saw here, people had pre-established concepts of what they were going to get based on, not fact, but what they perceived to be. If you ever look at the story of Clara Brown—and I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at Clara Brown; this is probably beyond the scope of what we’re talking about here—but Clara Brown was born a slave in Virginia. Her mother and she were sold to a different owner in Kentucky, and that’s where George Brown comes into the fact. She worked for the Brown family for 20 years. During that time, she was allowed to marry. She had four children. When George Brown died, that family was split apart, sold to different parts of the country. Her husband went one way, her son went one way. She had three daughters: an older daughter and twin daughters. Of the twins, one of them were drowned in a flood, and the remaining twin was—had a lot of nightmares about that situation. Clara Brown got her freedom at the age of 56. Most people are not aware that in most states, when you got your freedom, you had one year to get out of the state or you could be re-enslaved. Clara Brown went to St. Louis. Clara Brown worked. She heard that people were going to the West and being able to enjoy their freedoms. And so Clara Brown earned enough money to pay passage to Denver, Colorado. However, she could not take a stagecoach, because the stagecoaches would not sell a black person a ticket there. So she found a wagon train headed that way. Now, she’s almost 60 years old at this point. She walked, but she booked on to cook. So she had to get up early and do breakfast, stay up late to do dinner. But she walked 700 miles in eight weeks. After she got there, she set herself up in a laundry business. Ten years later, she has $10,000 in the bank, and this is in the 1880s, 1890s. Clara Brown, to her credit, was known as the Angel of the Rockies. There are at least three churches now that owe their existence to the fact that she contributed financially. There was a Catholic and two Methodist churches. She was Presbyterian, but she helped a lot of people along the way. What happened is that many people based slavery on the fact that black people could not feel pain. So if you look at James Marion Sims in Medical Apartheid, you’ll see some of the horrible, horrific things that he did there. And also said that black people don’t grieve, so you can sell the people around. I’ll speed this thing up, and we can get back on track. But anyway, she goes and finds that her daughter is still alive, and her daughter is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. She didn’t find her until 80 years of age. Franklin: Wow. Abercrombie: But that puts a hole in much of what the people that believed in slavery—because they said we don’t feel pain, we don’t have emotion, we don’t have the ability to do it. But so many things have happened in this country that have been based strictly on the perceived concept. So, I’ll get back on track. Franklin: Okay. That was a great story, though, thank you. In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation or racism? Abercrombie: As I indicated before, when we looked at people—I was here when we wanted to institute an apprenticeship program, bring people of color and women into some of the skilled crafts. Many of the—and I’ve had more than one person tell me that the next job that comes up belongs to my son, my nephew, my whoever. In other words, these people owned the job. Many of the super—in fact, most of the supervisors and foremen came from the ranks, and they brought those attitudes with them. So we did not open opportunities, even in the skilled crafts, and in many cases, even entry level opportunities to bring people in and allow them to perform to their level, because they had a lot to bring with them. We look at people quite a bit different, because even in the schools, in the early grades, this particular mannerism is cute, but in girls and in minorities, you know, third, fourth grade, it becomes something of a distraction, it’s disruptive, it’s something else. The same attitude in a white male would be accepted as leadership, moving ahead. And so we face many of those problems here. Because we are people, and that exists. In terms of professional positions, the same thing manifests itself. We don’t have an opportunity to put input into the system and to show what we can do, show what other people can do, and open opportunities to people. So we got to a position where we had to have Affirmative Action because people were not given the opportunities; not because they could not perform, but—and the school system itself created a lot of the system. The school systems, not necessarily here, but all over the country. Franklin: Right. You mentioned that when you first came to Hanford, you went out to work at PUREX? Abercrombie: Yes. Franklin: Right, and how long did you work there for? Abercrombie: I came in as a tech grad and so I worked there for four months; I went to Z Plant, which was 234-5 Plutonium Finishing Laboratory, worked there for four months; and then I went to REDOX, worked in the Standards Lab for four months. At that point I then had a permanent assignment, went back to PUREX and was there for a couple of years before I had the opportunity to go as a shift supervisor, and worked there for a couple of years, and went into the EEO and human resources and other activities. Franklin: What on-the-job training did you receive? Abercrombie: Well, the technical graduate program basically was an on-the-job type training. We had people that we could work with in all of those positions. So, it’s kind of like getting used to the work that’s in the various laboratories. You had a chance of sitting down, talking to people about various openings that were available there. So you had kind of an idea of what was available and the ability to match that with what you wanted to do. While I was working at the electro-potentiometric determinations of uranium at PUREX, there were other things that I could have done. When I went to 234-5, it was emission spectroscopy, and we were looking at the impurity elements in plutonium product. Completely new field for me. At REDOX, I worked in the Standards Laboratory and got to see a different view of everything. When I went back to PUREX, I worked in quality control and quality assurance. Wrote the quality control and assurance plan for uranium, plutonium, neptunium for the entire plant, before moving into the human resource area. So, that was how some of that worked. My classmate that had come out had worked in the counting room, and was able to work with the early computers. He worked in safety for a while. So we had a chance to look at a few different things there. So if that’s answering the question you asked. Franklin: Yes, yes, thank you. How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors? Abercrombie: I would have to say that it was better than I expected, because I had preconceived notions as well. And I found that in many cases, I got help from people that I never expected to ever get it from. I think part of it was the fact that you were able to kind of relax around some of these people, that you were able—some of these people. As if there’s a difference and a distinction in them. So we were able, because it was fairly small laboratories, fairly small work groups that you could kind of fit in and kind of work with people. And I think people were willing to help people that were willing to expend the time and energy to try to excel at what they were doing. Franklin: How were you treated on the job? Abercrombie: By and large, I would say that it was pretty good. I would not say that it’s perfect, but I don’t know any place that would be. I think the opportunities that came along were good. I think it could’ve been better. But I can’t really compare it to anything, because most of my experience was here. Except for the fact that I did work with the City of Richland with the Human Rights Commission and for a time was chairman of that particular commission. I worked with the Benton County Sheriff’s office as a reserve, and got into that as a result of my labor relations experience, because I did have the Hanford Guards and wanted to find out what they did. So I went out and qualified with them, and spent a weekend in class and did the day and night qualifications with them. Benton County said, if we send you to the academy, will you go? Well, I wanted to find out what that was all about, and, yes. And that was one of the most frightening experiences of my life. Because in the South, where I came from, when police came into your neighborhood, somebody was going to bleed. Man, woman, or child, somebody was going to bleed. So I got commissioned as a deputy with Benton County, I did not want to go in with the intent of beating anybody; I didn’t want to go in with the type of thing that I had seen growing up. So that was an extremely frightening experience for me. But I think I worked with a good group of people, and had my eyes opened, and I think I opened some of theirs as well. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Abercrombie: I think most of my activities outside of work did not involve coworkers. We had some, we had limited. I didn’t go out and do a lot of things. Like I said, an occasional fishing trip, occasional hunting, and motorcycle. Motorcycle I could do with a group or I could do by myself. Franklin: Yeah. Abercrombie: So. Franklin: What were the most difficult aspects of the job? Abercrombie: I think it was the idea of competing against people that had gone to named universities and thinking—and really not knowing what to expect. Because like you say—not, like I’ve said before, but when you are given hand-me-down books, which is what we got in our school system—when you see that there is some reason that you can’t go to that school, or you don’t have that opportunity—now, I had a chance, when I worked as a bricklayer to work in all the schools there, because I worked for the school district during part of the year, because my dad was in the industrial arts. The glass brick that they had in schools, when they broke, I was the one that went in and repaired them. So I saw the difference in the equipment of what they had versus what we had. My high school, maybe had one reel-to-reel tape recorder and a broken-down film projector. And I could go there and see that they had full language labs, and they had individual headsets, and they had equipment that I absolutely knew—did not have access to. Textiles, which were big there, they had classes in loom repair. One of the better jobs there. I worked as a weaver in college, and was a weaver, and was selected to go into the mechanical side of things there before I decided—well, it wasn’t really a decision, because I was coming out here or going to do the bricklaying in the first place. But I think that sets the tone for a lot of things in your life, and you begin to wonder: can I compete? And that does a lot to affect where you end up. Franklin: What were conditions like in terms of health and safety? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] Having just read Plutonium Files, I think that a lot of the information we were given, I question. I don’t think that they knew exact information as much as they let on to us believing that they knew. I think in some cases we were kind of used as guinea pigs. One of the things that I have found is that I was exposed to beryllium when I worked at Plutonium Finishing Lab. That has caused me a lot of problems. In fact, during the ‘90s, the mid- to late-‘90s, I was diagnosed with bronchoalveolar carcinoma and told that I had six to ten months to live. And it turned out that it was similar to sarcoidosis, but actually it was the beryllium sensitivity and beryllium disease. They did a lavage and took lung tissue and that’s when they had come up with this prognosis that I had six to ten months to live. But when you look at the whole body count, when you start looking at some of what we were exposed to, I think in some cases the decisions were made on a financial basis as opposed to a security basis. When we look at what we’re doing now and what we have left over as remnants in terms of the Tank Farms, in terms of the waste, in terms of many of the aspects that are giving us headaches at this point, I think they knew, but didn’t want to act on it. And it was strictly a financial situation as opposed to a long term safety situation. And I think some people were guinea pigs. My classmate has probably been dead ten years, and I’m not sure that Hanford didn’t contribute very highly in that particular situation. Franklin: How did your racial background figure into your work experiences? Abercrombie: Well, no matter where you go, you take them with you. You take your preconceived ideas and you run into people that have preconceived ideas. I’m not sure that Hanford necessarily would’ve been any different than anywhere else, because I did not work anywhere else. But you run into the situation where people have the preconceived idea that, for whatever reason, you maybe can’t do this, maybe you shouldn’t do that. Hopefully things are a lot better. When I left Hanford, I did not leave feeling that I had been treated fairly in the end. Very much to the contrary. So. Overall, I think that it was good life experience. But there are certainly a lot of things, I think, that could’ve been significantly different. Franklin: I understand. In what ways did the security and secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Abercrombie: It had some impact, because some of the work required a Q clearance, the top clearance. I had less impact than most people, because my clearance got here just before I did. So I did not have a limited clearance. I had access to secret information when I got here. Some people were impacted, because there were certain jobs that they could not take, or did not have the opportunity to do, because it did involve some secret information. So I think it had less an impact on me than it did on some of the other people, if that’s the question that you’re asking. Certainly, it was a different atmosphere. But having been an only child and not being prone to be around and talking to a lot of people about a lot of different stuff, it probably had less impact on me than it did most people. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] As far as Hanford itself is concerned, I’m still trying to explore that. I’ll tell you with some degree of embarrassment, I just recently found out about the 555th, which was the first group of African American paratroopers in the country. They had trained, I believe, at Fort Benning, Georgia. At that time, blacks were not allowed to be paratroopers, because the Army was strictly segregated. But what happened is that they were camped right next to the training for the paratroopers. They said, we can do that! So when they were done for the day, they would go over and go through all of the exercises, all the maneuvers that they had seen being done throughout the day. And they excelled at that to the point that one of the higher officers saw that and said, maybe we need to make a unit out of these guys. Well, what does that have to do with me out here? Well, during World War II, the Japanese were floating incendiary devices across the oceans in balloons and setting large fires. We didn’t want the Japanese to know that they were even being successful. So who do we send in? The 555th. They were stationed at Pendleton, and they made many jumps into the Pacific Northwest. One of those devices even landed at Hanford. Not being aware of the fact that we had done much beyond George Washington Carver, I didn’t spend a lot of time studying and looking into it, until fairly recently. It’s kind of interesting how I got involved in black history at all, but, like I may have indicated Sunday, I was asking the gentleman that was here in ’41 or ’42 about Kennewick being a sundown city. And he said, yes. But he had not seen the sign. So whether it actually—whether there were actually signs or whether it was just known that such was the case in Kennewick—and I talked to a person that lived in Pasco. They made sure that they were out of Kennewick. So it affected a lot of people. When I came here and was looking at houses, people had told me, don’t go to Kennewick. So some of those stories, whether they were fables or not, did have an impact. So yeah. Franklin: How did you feel at the time about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Abercrombie: Repeat the question, please. Franklin: How did you feel at the time about working on the development of nuclear weapons? Abercrombie: I felt better then than I do now. I didn’t know a lot about nuclear weapons. But the fact that supposedly we had shortened the war with the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I thought they were peaceful—or that it would serve a useful purpose. They were talking about plough sharing and being able to do other things with the energy, you know, making tunnels or canals or digging things. And I didn’t understand, at that point, some of the long term effects that radiation could have. I think that in many cases, we moved strictly on the basis of finances as opposed to what could be done safely. I think that we were operating and putting waste into the ground with the idea that it’d be okay for eternity. And I think that had we taken seriously the concept that we need to take this from—no pun intended—from birth to the grave or birth to eternity in the beginning, I think that it would’ve been a lot sounder situation to get into. When I go and when I look at material like we find in Plutonium Files, they were doing experiments on people that I don’t think were necessarily ethical. I’m not sure that we weren’t in such a position there, because I think most of our difficulties came out when it became known to some people that the beryllium had manifested itself that I had been exposed to earlier. I think that it was a bit naïve on my part in the beginning. I think I would feel differently now. I think that it is a situation that could be controlled and should’ve been controlled earlier in the game. So I think I felt better at that time, because I did not know some of the consequences of what I was doing, as opposed to now. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Abercrombie: [SIGH] Tough question. And I think that for many of the questions that we have looked at. But I think that the long-range prognosis of what we’ve done is that we have been short-sighted, not only at Hanford, but in the way that we have handled the earth, that we’ve handled the environment. And we normally look at what is happening immediately; we don’t look at what can happen five years, 500 years, 5,000 years down the road from what we’re doing. I think we have to be concerned about it, not only with the nuclear energy—because I think nuclear energy can be done safely—but when we look at situations such as plastics. We’re having tons and tons of it wash up on shores of various places, we have large masses in the middle of our oceans, we’re putting it into our food system, that we need to be more cognizant of some of the things that we’re doing. In terms of Hanford, we have to look at the migration of isotopes towards our rivers and things of that nature. So I guess, that’s what I have to look at in terms of our legacy. I don’t think that we’ve handled it in the very best way. But I think we have to take today and do the best that we can for the future, or else we won’t have a future. In a way. If that answers your question. Franklin: It does. Thank you. Switching to civil rights, what were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Abercrombie: Major problem here, as everywhere—because this is not the only place in which the condition existed—goes back to the fact that I don’t think that people have been woven into the fabric of this country as they should have been. When we start looking at minorities, when we start looking at women, when we start looking at anybody that is not the majority, or is not accepted, or is not blessed by the majority, and leave them out, we leave the best of some people untapped. You know, I look back at the American Revolutionary War, and I look at Sybil Ludington, 16-year-old girl that rode the same night as Paul Revere. We don’t see the fact that that is a part of our history, that is a part of the fabric of us. So sometimes we leave people—significant groups of people—out of the equation, that in order to make this a better country, this a better world, we need to take the best of everybody. Now, when I came here, like I said, or like we’ve talked about, many people were isolated into the area of east Pasco. Many people were not given the opportunity to work jobs that they were capable of performing. When you hold somebody down, you hold the progress of the entire group down. And I’m not talking about the racial group; I’m talking about everybody. When we look at Charles Drew, for example, who developed the blood bank, and under the auspices of the American Red Cross. He left because they wanted him to spend his time creating two different blood banks: one for black, one for white. He said, no, that’s not going to happen. When we look at the developments that people can make, I think that we need to be working on the development of everybody, and pull this thing together. The fact that we even have to have black history is because we have not woven those accomplishments into the fabric that is this nation, that is this country, that is this world. We look at Canada, for example, and not realize the number of people that have escaped slavery going up there. We don’t even acknowledge the brutality of slavery. We don’t acknowledge the contributions that people have made otherwise. Now we’re having—and I finally get this—Viola Desmond, for example, is on the Canadian ten-dollar bank note. She was arrested because she went to the movie and sat in a white seat, and they got her on taxes. Because the different in tax on the seat where she would seat and the one reserved for the whites was one penny. She was fined $26 and jail, I believe. They made some acknowledgement of that. But I think we need to include all people fairly in the distribution of what’s accomplished. We have a school-to-prison pipeline where we’re making money off the fact of people being imprisoned. It costs way more money to keep a person in prison than it does to education them. When you educate a person, you eliminate much of what we have. We have people that are crying out and resorting to violent behavior, resorting to criminal behavior, because there is no opportunity for them. And I think that’s one of the things that we absolutely need to do. We don’t have a discussion in this country of one of the most difficult subjects that there is to broach, and that keeps that divide there. We need to look at Germany and what they have done in terms of the treatment of the Holocaust and their contribution to it. I think there are lessons to be learned there. We are not the know-it-all of everything. And there are lessons to be learned. And unless we learn from those lessons, we’re not making progress. Franklin: What actions were being taken here to address the issues that you brought up? Abercrombie: Very difficult question for me to answer, because I don’t spend a great deal of time here anymore. I spend time between here and South Carolina. My contribution has been the fact that I have been trying to bring some of the items that have been left untouched together. I have a website, Amazing Black History, where I’m putting together a lot of information on contributions that have been made by blacks, and the purpose for that is not to elevate anybody, but to show people what’s there. It’s not to isolate anybody, because the stories that are on that site are intended to inspire everybody, whether they are male, female, black, white or any other nationality. It’s intended to get people to understand the impact that a person can have, the abilities that a person has, so much so that I’m doing that. That’s part of the dedication. I’m using that as examples; my primary intent is to motivate and inspire people to become the best that they can be. Franklin: You mentioned earlier that you were on the Richland Human Rights Commission. Abercrombie: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Right? As the chair. What types of problems were visible to you as on the Human Rights Commission? How did the commission try to tackle those issues? Abercrombie: It’s difficult for a city to run a function like that, because of limited resources. It was an all-volunteer group. I think we went through a couple of cases. But as you have a state commission, I think they’re able to function better. A federal commission, I think should be able to function even better. It was limited. But we looked at what was occurring. And I think most of the problems on whatever level come from a lack of knowledge of what people can do, and we take the preconceived notions and say the people cannot do this, they cannot do that, they don’t have the opportunities to do that. When I was working as a bricklayer, we had a church, and we did the brickwork on it. But the church members volunteered and helped to save money, and one of the people that we had was a woman who was an ex-school teacher. I don’t know if you’ve ever lifted a 12-inch concrete block, but I have seen that woman take those things that probably weigh 70 to 80 pounds, one in each hand, and throw them up on the scaffold. That’s an individual. There are men that cannot do that. But we go around with the perceived perception of what people can do based on our mind and not the person. And I think it’s been very detrimental to minorities; I think it’s been very detrimental to women. I think it’s even been detrimental to men, because some of them probably have been pushed into areas that they would be less comfortable in, only because of somebody else’s preconceived notion. Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Abercrombie: Not directly. You mean, in terms of protest, or--? Franklin: Yeah, I mean any kind of protest, lobbying, you know, sign making, efforts in the human rights council? Abercrombie: Not directly. Now, we were involved in a group that existed late ‘60s, early ‘70s called BEAT, B-E-A-T, Black Expressions of Art in the Tri-Cities. We were attempting to make known what we could do. One of the activities that we had is we had Alex Haley come to town, and this is before Roots was written. He spent the day at my house, we talked with him extensively about what he had done, what he was working on at the time. He was working on Roots. I thought it was going to be about his research, and was tremendously excited about it, although when I got the book and read it, I was very excited about it as well. So we were—Tony Brown, we brought here. Most of the actions that I took were of the, hopefully, enlightening aspect of it, as opposed to those people that were doing the actually on the ground. I admired the. From the way that I’d come up, I didn’t really get involved in that. Looking back, I probably wish that I had. Franklin: But you were focused on—your activity in BEAT was focused on kind of bringing influential people to kind of show—just to enlighten people about black culture and art and things like that. Kind of—influence people or just to share that knowledge? Abercrombie: Yeah, I think it was more of an educational thing, because I had this preconceived notion that if you know me, you’ll like me. You won’t hate me. And I’m not talking about me myself, but I’m talking about the fact that—and one of the things that really, really upset me that I really didn’t understand— [PHONE RINGING] Abercrombie: Is that the end of our time? One of the things that I really didn’t understand is how a Christian could look at a black person the way that they were doing. When you look at the fact that there have been over 4,000 people of color hung in this country and they were hung by basically Christian people—are there two Gods? Why don’t we get some respect? Why does this situation exist? So, some of those situations really, really disturb me. Why do we have to have two educational systems? Wouldn’t it be more effective if we had one? At that time, it was not pushing for integration as much as it was for desegregation. I think we get into a situation where those two ideas and concepts got muddled. I think that in terms of bang for the buck, I think the black schools gave it, because there were dedicated teachers that were there. As I saw integration taking place, in my wife’s home town for example, when the school that she attended, the high school that she attended was integrated, the white teachers came up there with dumpsters. They threw away trophies, they threw away records, they threw away all sorts of things because it did not mean anything to them. So we approached integration, which I think is one of the biggest failed experiments that I can ever think of, because we went in with one group thinking they were vastly superior, another group thinking that they were for whatever reason inferior—although we had so many examples of people that did not fit into that category—that we’ve done ourselves a great injustice by the way that we went about this. We had people that felt that they were being forced into something. We didn’t pre-sell it. We just forced it on. This is the way this is going to be and that’s it. I think that we have made—and I think it’s good that we have gotten rid of many of the barriers. But I think a lot of them still exist, and a lot of them exist because we don’t understand, and because we fail to discuss. We have never really had a solid discussion in this country on race, and I think that many people are afraid of it. I just think that at some point in time, we’re going to have to have that discussion. Franklin: Agreed. I like your point that—or at least I think the point you were making—that desegregation and integration aren’t the same thing, in that integration doesn’t—I think we thought integration would follow desegregation, but in a lot of communities over time, it just became segregated in a different way. Like with white flight or with—once busing was over—now our schools are more segregated than they were in 1960, because of the ways that neighborhoods or people have formed neighborhoods, and largely choose to live in certain areas over others. And we’re— Abercrombie: Well, I think it’s more being forced into neighborhoods than others. Because we didn’t look at the fore-ranging impact of what that would happen. Let’s take my neighbor that I spoke of whose father was a doctor. He couldn’t move into a neighborhood that was comparable with his income level. Therefore, he didn’t get to go to the school that got all of the funding. And as a result, he’s impacted. They are also impacted, because they don’t get a chance to take advantage of what he could contribute, or what I could contribute, or what anybody could contribute. And when you look at the color of law, and you look and see the depth to which this country has gone to maintain segregated communities, and when you look at how school districts are gerrymandered, when you look at how jobs then are created based on a lot of the factors that we try to keep out of our peripheral vision, you see why we’re in such bad shape. When we take our best students and give them everything that they have, everything that they need to excel, I think it’s great. And we need to do that regardless of color, race, religion or any other factor. And when we have students that learn by different methods—some people by example or whatever—we need to look more at how to get the best out of everybody. Franklin: Coming back to your life, when did your work at Hanford come to an end, and what did you do afterwards? Abercrombie: [LAUGHTER] It’s kind of interesting, like I said. I think the treatment that I received my last days of work at Hanford were not the way that I would treat a dog. I think that I was treated very unfairly. I think there were a couple of people that did some things specifically that were not in my best interest. About the time that I left Hanford is about the time that I got the diagnosis that I had six to ten months to live. It’s sometimes kind of difficult to think that those two are completely separated. I know when I was told the information about basically leaving Hanford, I made a comment at that time that scared me. And I would probably have done something that I would have regretted, but it was something that I had to leave alone or I think would’ve been consumed. So I’m at a point where I need to try to live out the six to ten months that I’d been given, make the best use of that time, as opposed to anything having to do with Hanford. So it was a difficult crossroad in my life at that time that came there. Franklin: When was this? Abercrombie: This was in the middle- to late-‘90s. Franklin: Okay. Abercrombie: As a result of having worked with people and seeing so many people that have been passed up and so many people that have gotten a false impression of what they can and can’t do, that right now my passion is letting people know that they themselves have capabilities. And I’m using a lot of the examples that I’m finding out that I’m talking about with you to show just that. And I think that there are lessons there that can help motivate and inspire all people. Because once you see what the lowest of these have done, then you see what you are capable of doing. And I’d like to work with those people towards those ends. So my ultimate goal is to do just that. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Abercrombie: Hmm. [LAUGHTER] Well, there are some positive things there. Community can come together. Richland had come together in support of a particular cause, whether that cause is right, wrong or indifferent. I think that that is a life lesson there: that you can pull together. Hopefully you have the right direction, hopefully you have the foresight, and hopefully all of those are good. I think that is part of the legacy that should be this nation’s motto, that no matter where we are and no matter what we do, that we can work together, that we can pull for good. I think we need to be a little more foresighted in much of what we do, because we tend to be shortsighted on what is going to make a dollar today, which may cost us five dollars to clean up tomorrow. And I think that we need to realize that it’s individuals that make this country, and not necessarily the groups that make this country. And so that we all need to work towards that end. Maximize all of the resources, all of the talent, all of the people that we have, and not waste our time on trying to denigrate or minimize any person. Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Abercrombie: Overall in my life, it’s been the fact that I’ve been exposed to experiences that I never would had I remained a bricklayer. [LAUGHTER] And hopefully other people will have found the same. I guess the one thing that I’m thinking now, hopefully it will go along with the idea and the concepts of what you’re talking about—is I look at the article that I just did on Clara Brown where she had one year to decide to—or to move out of the state or be re-enslaved. Sometimes, we think that we don’t have to make a decision and not realize that not making the decision is actually making a decision. Sometimes it is accepting of a situation that we really don’t want. We need to be objective in what we look at and how we look at it and the consequences of it. We need to train ourselves in school and we need to train ourselves in life that we need to be willing to make decisions. We need to be willing to speak out for what is right. We need to be able to do that in order to move the country forward, to move the world forward. We cannot be so nearsighted that we don’t see beyond our own noses. Franklin: Great. Well, John, thank you so much for coming and sharing your perspective and your research for your website, and weaving all that together for us. Abercrombie: Okay. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview PUREX 200-East Area 234-5 Plutonium Finishing Laboratory REDOX Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1967- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1967-1995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Abercrombie Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) School integration African American universities and colleges Affirmative action programs Migration Civil rights Race relations Racism Description An account of the resource John Abercrombie has lived in the Tri-Cities since 1967 and worked on the Hanford Site from 1967-1995. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/23/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc51835a80587285d9946153183cd5e04.tif b70b727e89c03e795d199b6e1c7de865 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Ron Palmer Description An account of the resource Items donated by Ron Palmer to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/820">Ron Palmer oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reactor Area 100K Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource Plan of the 100K Area Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/1/1979 Type The nature or genre of the resource Site plans; Plans Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2I_006 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F177a66f5ac4f7c252f2923e95c49d60c.tif e7097fdbb2570583d4ca4eaaac52423a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Ron Palmer Description An account of the resource Items donated by Ron Palmer to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/820">Ron Palmer oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reactor Area 100N Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear power; Nuclear power plants; Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource Plan of the 100N Area Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/1/1979 Type The nature or genre of the resource Site plans; Plans Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2I_005 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F691a1e78be2f340146ab92f9a71d2296.tif 49c0cde5ab8a27a88270e1e1b9568820 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Ron Palmer Description An account of the resource Items donated by Ron Palmer to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/820">Ron Palmer oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 3000 Area Subject The topic of the resource Industry; Defense industry Description An account of the resource Plan of the 3000 Area Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/1/1979 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2I_004 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc592ae024696c7e8996675d1e769b271.tif 5c0b75d494ae5b7813c9f54a8088e5bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Ron Palmer Description An account of the resource Items donated by Ron Palmer to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/820">Ron Palmer oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hanford Area Map Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear power; Nuclear power plants; Nuclear reactors Description An account of the resource A map of the Hanford Site showing the various fuel manufacturing and processing areas and contractors Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/1/1976 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2I_003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcb260bc43d835855a595e7d50e87d74c.tif 735bc7f30b2696edd67de8a3fa9f82ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Ron Palmer Description An account of the resource Items donated by Ron Palmer to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/820">Ron Palmer oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Department of Energy Unveils Geologic Storage Plan for Radioactive Wastes Subject The topic of the resource Radioactive wastes; Radioactivity; Radioactive substances; Satires (Visual works); Cartoons (Commentary) Description An account of the resource A cartoon lampooning the Basalt Waste Isolation Project that Ronald Palmer worked on in the 1980s. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2I_002 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc4e25f5b708462856a3ecbf6728e23a3.tif 1fa7fbe24264367ac71baa16e9b32e13 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd36a437425606afb9308ac123312b533.tif a59be55f0f137ead643f79cb65dfa44d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Palmer, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Ron Palmer Description An account of the resource Items donated by Ron Palmer to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/820">Ron Palmer oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Building and Managing Effective Teams Description An account of the resource A certificate issued by the Joint Center for Graduate Study in Richland, WA (now the WSU Tri-Cities campus) to Ronald A. Palmer for successful completion in the program of "Building and Managing Effective Teams." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joint Center for Graduate Study Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2I_001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F700006da0f39479fc488a720d35abbab.tif a5ebdc3e42dda91c1414d679c19d64d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Girls' Team Won Col-Hi's First State Trophy Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_012a Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa98ae9253816c68781292bb538e1c202.tif 95c100dd4c69e2bf26e76f05b59a93c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Girls' Team Won Col-Hi's First State Trophy Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_012 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa8def2f504f79f6ba00c927da5a671ce.tif 60c93d7d4b679bda110e43e554e2eba5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richland Asked to Locate Former Resident, Now 125 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_011 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa168640cf61b8bd95e06b889cc390ae5.tif 3fef9bab3cace2def6f0559ca8c01d94 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Long Family, 1910 Description An account of the resource Jay, Rosgetta, Augustus, Lara, Frank and Coralea Wood, Otis, Blanche. Roszella, Solomon and Jake. Children of Rosgetta and Augustus (Edith, Florence, Ethel, Forest and Helen). Children of Blanche and Otis (Stanley, Flora, Valley and Fern) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_010 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4a3cf89a763e5023d15ccb8b0f48750a.tif 838c6069749fa705f71dfd8c57da512b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Dean and Steve (a buddy) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_009 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F689afa26ee93ff0cded1f56f404a5243.tif 5f1cdc5aa1b0045536e898e68888d413 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_008 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa29abbcf72356e81b8eb0514a7ab51c7.tif 8a74b2271a56619a6a4dac8d366548f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Blanch, [illegible]. Grandpa Long and Grandma Long Emma. Agustus Romson Long. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_007 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0a7b0eea23c4450d3c64fb15ea350032.tif dff8591fa5fdf88785b7d37cc76599e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Lorrain, May 1949 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_006 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 5/1/1949 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F307cef6bf478fd2c06606cb3bac617de.tif 44c11f367c17b04808a9de33c5ff3cb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Lorrain Sloppy, Vicki Lee Krien, Prosser Wash. Vicki is Bebs first child. First of 12. My age 15 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_005 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe69a9f0296f9608dd7e75fdbee3c89b6.tif 7aa1424f0b19abee15aed45dfc9d72c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Edith Long Sloppy second from right. Others unknown Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_004 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F242596b4deee71df948d5cf68dfced28.tif 1fa7fbe24264367ac71baa16e9b32e13 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lorraine Ferqueron, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Lorraine Ferqueron Description An account of the resource Items donated by Lorraine Ferqueron to the Hanford History Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/802">Lorraine Ferqueron oral history interview</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Combine Harvester and Thresher, Horse Heaven, 1910 Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Agricultural equipment; Agricultural laborers; Combines (Agricultural machinery); Farmers; Farming; Harvesting Machinery; Animal husbandry Description An account of the resource View of a horse-drawn grain combine harvester and thresher in the horse heaven hills. Picture is likely a reprint and copyright exists elsewhere. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2H_001 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1/1/1910 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0640559a62036a2e164ddae3ea14d04b.tif 2de85075e4db007ebde020ca0ccae76d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Farming With the Feminine Touch Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Machinery; Tractors Description An account of the resource Fifth page of International Harvester FARM article on the Didier family Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource International Harvester Farm Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Sep-69 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 7/13/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D013 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8d422bb53fbaa616f5f5a33f9d444ee4.tif 2de85075e4db007ebde020ca0ccae76d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Farming With the Feminine Touch Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Machinery; Tractors Description An account of the resource Fifth page of International Harvester FARM article on the Didier family Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource International Harvester Farm Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D012 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9561d4c60d54948b334af72c73c5e518.tif 68026ce6e721e9f5eb13d5d50723cbc5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Farming With the Feminine Touch Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Machinery; Tractors Description An account of the resource Third page of International Harvester FARM article on the Didier family Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource International Harvester Farm Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Sep-69 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D011 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6f893e41da6ce83b3219aea6550f64ef.tif 079fbc4aae740f527446dfcce1da3607 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Farming With the Feminine Touch Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Machinery; Tractors Description An account of the resource Second page of International Harvester FARM article on the Didier family Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Sep-69 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D010 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4cb6a37db43d4fc1a1a6693cac561bd4.tif 6f8f1b0f07fb26306b1d91d0c558cd60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Farming With the Feminine Touch Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Machinery; Tractors Description An account of the resource Alice and Don Didier on the cover of International Harvester Farm titled "Farming with the Feminine Touch" Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource International Harvester Farm Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b0d11a40549c58d84355c6d8164c381.tif b3c2467b271222cbc2c626f029a4fba5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Didier Homestead Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Machinery; Tractors; Shelters; Tents; Trucks Description An account of the resource View of the temporary dwellings the Didier family lived in as they homesteaded outside of Eltopia, WA Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D008 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc916c5dff16230ab4d3aa4fa0fd257bd.tif 899a40a71d09245ced21f117e4e2ff0f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Didier Homestead Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Homesteading Description An account of the resource View of uncleared land at the Dider homestead near Eltopia, WA Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alice Didier Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 7/13/2016 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D007 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F40645ab9cae564781f1cfb5bda244587.tif 1989e6d79827e0f1ecf51cb95b9fe64b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Didier Homestead Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Reclamation of land; Clearing of land; Homesteading; Machinery; Tracklaying vehicles; Bulldozers; Trucks Description An account of the resource Photograph of the Didier homestead with heavy equipment clearing sagebrush in the background Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alice Didier Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 7/13/2016 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D006 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa5429007c7014a7e6600ff9b1211ed6e.tif 301e65a6e78dd151b1cce1df1ec69b4c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Don and Alice Subject The topic of the resource Photographs; Portraits; Portrait photographs Description An account of the resource Don and Alice Didier pose for a studio photo. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 7/13/2016 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D005 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F11e81a16a8221b0f70accbf2c2450fe5.tif b94626b1a20764cff5b398ff76a795cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clint and Curt Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Trucks Description An account of the resource Clint and Curt Didier pose in front of a truck at the Didier homestead. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alice Didier Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D004 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa204342cad2eb404f1a586cb79ea57d6.tif 8e1c6b96b515f81a7fe6a0d7d1f2a144 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Don and Curt. Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Shelters; Tents Description An account of the resource Don and Curt Didier pose in front of their homestead tent. Alice Didier can be seen inside the tent. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alice Didier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Jun-55 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D003 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fff94ccefb6bee294e9a41ca7938b53db.tif 9b2f819747402fc28340b8c539e6361f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chris and Denise Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading Description An account of the resource Chris and Denise Didier posing at the family homestead. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alice Didier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1957 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D002 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff0bef8a65fdaa6b797a91629acf66a07.tif e37e5bee6033df7b3a7c32583e3caa34 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Didier, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Alice Didier Description An account of the resource Items donated by Alice Didier to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/207">Alice Didier Oral History Interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Didier Family Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture; Farming; Farmers; Homesteading; Tractors Description An account of the resource The Didier family posing with a "C" tractor. Alice and Don with their children (from left to right), Curt, Clint, and Denise. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alice Didier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Sep-58 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG1D_2D001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F65cb09a5a6b58adc476993750444e64b.tif b67e4cab10325871589be38a5c46d7d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Certificate of Merit Subject The topic of the resource Machinery Description An account of the resource A Certificate of Merit presented to Jerry Tallent for his work on the Dismantling Machine Design Team. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westinghouse Energy & Advanced Technology Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983 Type The nature or genre of the resource Certificates Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 6/22/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F80f89091fd5f311516defd196e960231.tif b09eac8a496cbc978673c175d76304a4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pentronix Powder Technology Center Certificate Subject The topic of the resource Machinery; Presses Description An account of the resource A certification that Jerry Tallent is qualified to operate a MULTIPAK 601 Anvil Press and a MULTIPAK 1602 3 Mode Press. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource PTX Pentronix Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/30/1980 Type The nature or genre of the resource Certificates Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7d507aec6919fd3ac0389ea2532e7dda.tif 900341cf4013020903ea6b82f5d114fb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dismantling Machine Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource Manipulator arm taking apart a fuel rod. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent020 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 6/22/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2fb04117479755c5ee33b0db3a7e06f7.tif 8d716712e14b960285eab19a2ee3f7d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fuel Pin Canister Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource Closeup of a fuel pin canister showing hexigonal fuel rod formation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3cabd3951b62d579af973211c2752b10.tif b491113e91367d82118cc78de9c10b8b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Operating Dismantling Machine Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource Jerry Tallent posing as an operator of the Dismantling machine. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F25840da970c16a15d3baa92b0cf09fc9.tif c87b23c7d9a85ff1a41adf1fb1357759 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Two Story Glove Box Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource "Greg" demonstrating operation of a glove box assisted by a lift while Jerry Tallent operates lift at the Hanford Engineering Development Lab. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe782ab50c5ce918e9b9b2c5475fd8e86.tif 5b5830b7a7ed163103c6af6d8d468f82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource SN005 Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource Jerry Tallent operating the SN005, a fuel rod Dismantling machine that he help invent. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d2d7b0f2b216cf6697c5d0207d60d80.tif bd2e05e9352e410a03993cdf9a71db10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Foreign Visitors Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity; Foreign visitors Description An account of the resource A group of visiting foreign nuclear scientists and policymakers viewing the Dismantling machine at the Hanford Engineering Development Lab. The dismanteler, developed by Jerry Tallent, cut open fuel rods by welding copper to stainless steel which caused the casing to split open without any radioactive debris. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fafc1844bee8e5b2886a06aa39ca718a8.tif 78e2bdc495d529a77ebdb38ba2760689 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Steel Arm Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource A steel arm used in the fuel rod Dismantling machine. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Battelle Northwest Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F99a35c7114489f89d5a484a4b8b7c4fc.tif 134ea6be70387dfede6cb2bd2c9c704c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Steel Arm Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear reactors; Radioactive substances; Radioactivity Description An account of the resource A steel arm used in the fuel rod Dismantling machine. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970s Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F346c2ce32252cbeee4b7dbee6c6bdaaa.tif 6a46517864dc8aa1a9914ceb1473f7c3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Charles C. Boggs Description An account of the resource Business card for Charles C. Boggs, Western Regional Sales Manager for Odetics inc., a robotics company Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Odetics inc. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980s Type The nature or genre of the resource Business Cards Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent012 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3e57c621449474652dfeffd382676887.tif 8cff56d86b738ff0f971b4fba0503d04 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Unidentified boy Description An account of the resource Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent011 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb762ab954138700ac422df1e30b9877b.tif 74f951a5a7df3216e80fdfc6e17ce186 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jerry Tallent, Oral History Metadata Subject The topic of the resource Metadata received during oral history interview with Jerry Tallent Description An account of the resource Items donated by Jerry Tallent to the Hanford History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/items/show/825">Jerry Tallent oral history interview</a> Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Unidentified girl Description An account of the resource A relation to Jerry Tallent Type The nature or genre of the resource Photographic prints Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tallent010 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource TIFF Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities