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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob and Dianne
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Taylor_Diane_Bob</p>
<p>Man one: Okay</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: All right. Good to go?</p>
<p>Man one: You ready?</p>
<p>Man two: We're ready to go.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. All right, well, we'll get started. And I'm going to start first by having each of you say your name for us. Make sure we have that on there. So go ahead.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: My name is Bob Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: And I'm Dianne Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: And Dianne is spelled with two Ns?</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Two Ns, yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, great. And my name's Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And today is June 10<sup>th</sup> of 2015. And so, if we could start maybe, start, Bob, maybe, with if you could tell us a little bit about your family and how they ended up coming to the Tri-Cities area and when that happened.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: My father was employed by the US federal prison system. He went to work as a guard at McNeil Island in 1934 for the Department of Prisons, the US Bureau of Prisons--there, I'm finally saying that correctly. And he started off as a guard and was employed at McNeil Island from 1934 actually until he retired in 1955. But the real story to talk about is how I happen to be sitting here. And in the early stages of the creation of the Manhattan Project and what was developing here with the acquisition of all the lands for Hanford, very early in that process, the US Army went to the Bureau of Prisons and contracted for a minimum security type prison camp to be constructed here in the Richland area. The purpose of that being the minimum security prisoners would be farming the lands and the orchards that were being acquired by the Manhattan Project, but would have no men available to take care of the fields and the orchards. And so the Bureau of Prisons contracted with the Department of the Army on behalf of the Manhattan Project to maintain those fields out in Vernita, White Bluffs, all in this area. And they agreed—they, the Department of the Army--agreed to build a, what they call, prison camp. It turned out to be right out on the bend of the Yakima River right near Horn Rapids Dam. And they constructed buildings, facilities, kitchens, dining areas, administration buildings, and the facilities to house and support approximately 250 federal prisoners who were brought in in early 1944 to take care of the agricultural needs of this area. And my father, who was at that point then had been with the federal prison at McNeil Island and had become a senior guard, was chosen to come over here and become superintendent of this camp. The name of the camp is Columbia Camp. And that's a little story in itself. The people in Washington, DC, were out here and didn't quite know the geography. They knew the Columbia River was here somewhere nearby, and even though the Yakima is a much smaller river, they didn't realize it. And so they named this federal prison camp Columbia Camp simply because they were on a river and they thought they were on the Columbia River. That's how it came to have the name Columbia Camp. Anyway, they started bringing the prisoners in in early 1944. And as I say, they typically for the next three and a half years, had about 250 prisoners on site at any given time. I think the number in the various information files I have, there were probably more like 700 prisoners rotated through this area. But the facilities were actually to hold about 250. So my dad took over as superintendent of the prison camp. He came here in early 1944, and initially they had—and I have many pictures of the whole camp, the buildings, and also the housing—there were initially 16 Quonset huts that were built out there for the initial officers and their families to move. At the time he came, those were the first. We moved in here actually on D Day, 1944, June 6<sup>th</sup>, in the middle of a major windstorm. And my mother who was born and raised in Western Washington, to arrive here in those kind of conditions—I don’t have to say that we had no air conditioning, and fans weren't even really very available. We moved into a Quonset hut. We ultimately, by the next spring, they—the Army, the prison—built eight more fancy housing. They brought in prefabs, the basic 609 square foot prefab that everybody in Richland is familiar with, of which there are still hundreds of them. That was the new fancy housing, and my dad as superintendent was able to claim the first one in the row next to the administration building. So in the next spring, then, we moved into a prefab. Again, I have lots of pictures, family pictures, of our housing. The kids, we were bused into Richland. Initially we all went to Sacajawea the first year we were there. And then when Jefferson grade school opened in the fall of '45, we all went there, switched over to there. We had a couple of older kids—family, kids in the camp—that went to high school at what was then called Columbia High School. My mother was a teacher, actually ended up teaching at Columbia High School part of the time that we were here. So as families living at Columbia Camp, we were bused into town, pretty much bused back home. And we played. As kids we played in the heat of the summer and cold in the winter and just pretty much in the desert surrounding the camp out there. The camp itself existed from early 1943. In early 1947, they started—they, again, the US Bureau of Prisons and the US Army--started writing back and forth corresponding about the continued need for the maintenance of the orchards and the fields and ultimately decided that it wasn't necessary anymore. And some of those fields ultimately were left to go, and others were maintained I guess in other ways. In the files that I have, my dad's files, I've got a tremendous amount of correspondence between he and the officials in Washington, DC. The Department of Army, I've got synopsis of what all was done during those period of years. I have interesting files about prisoners and some of their experiences in managing them as agricultural workers, how they got them to work every day, how they kept them fed every day. There's a lot of material in the files that I have of my dad's about that sort of thing. There's a lot of information about the contract itself between the US Army and the Federal Bureau of Prisons as far as payment of fees and expenses and also the type of crops that were harvested in volume and in prices and that sort of thing. It makes for very fascinating reading to have this kind of information available to me about what went on out there. Then ultimately in the fall of 1947, I think we were about the last to leave as a family. We left in November of '47. And basically the place was abandoned. I have, again in the files, there's information about dismantling the camp and sending knives and forks to Leavenworth and dishes to somewhere in Arizona. So there's a lot of very detailed information about the camp. But the long and the short of it is that the camp existed for those three and a half, almost four years. And very, very, very few people anywhere even know about it. The families, the other families, were rotated to different jobs. Three or four of the families went back to McNeil Island. Others went to Arizona, Leavenworth—other federal prison camps. And everybody just went their own way, and nobody was left here to even be a historian for what all went on. And thanks to my mother, who keeps all these documents and records and letters, and even—there’s a lot of letters between my father and my mother when he first came over here, where he's giving examples of daily life here in Richland in 1944 that are just fascinating reading. And the cost of a rental house that the government was charging for people and the cost to buy a refrigerator, things like that. So it's really fun for us to be able to come and sort of make some of this information available as to what Columbia Camp was all about over many, many, many years in Richland, because nobody was here to contradict that statement. A lot of people said, oh, it was a prisoner war camp. And ultimately, finally, that got changed. There was some documentation. At the present time, out at the day camp, there's a kiosk out there with a few pictures and a commentary posted out there, a little parking lot that you can drive to that gives just an extremely brief summary of what Columbia Camp was. There's a picture of a man, a far distant picture of a man standing in front of the administration building. Cannot guarantee it, but I think it—I'm pretty sure it's my dad. He was the superintendent of the camp, so his picture's out there in that kiosk for anybody that wants to go out there and look. But that's what Columbia Camp in a nutshell was all about. We have many, many, many pictures of the camp, the buildings, the dormitory buildings, the kitchen, the administration building, the power plant, the steam plant. And then we ourselves have taken pictures recently from some of those same positions, including the foundation of the steam plant that we've got so we can supplement a lot of what I've been talking about. Well, everything that I've been talking about we can supplement with pictures, and letters, and documents, and correspondence, and files.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Memories.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, right. So really interesting, and so first of all, let me confirm that there are still rumors out there. I've had students tell me, wasn't there a prisoner of war camp?</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Really?</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah, yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Or, wasn't a Japanese internment camp here?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: That's what--</p>
<p>Bauman: No.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Mm-mm.</p>
<p>Bauman: So this is great to--one great thing about interviewing you is to clarify that for people as well.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: One of the things that I'd like to bring in, because we didn't know about this for so long. Dad would not talk about his prison experiences. He was a loving, wonderful, wonderful father and grandfather and wonderful father-in-law. But this was never discussed. It wasn't until he died and I'm going through all of their things because Bob's an only child that I find all of this stuff. So Bob's mother's in a nursing home. She's quite elderly. We find this stuff. We get so excited over these pictures. Of course, she thought we were crazy to move to Richland anyway because her memories are not the Richland it is today. So we went, took all these pictures. And all she did was she took them from me, put them down in her purse. And I said, well, Mom, this is exciting. We found all dad's stuff, and we want to talk about it. No, it's secret. She would not talk about it. It was secret. And this is in 19--when did she die?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, this was in 1995, I think, that we--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: It was so ingrained in her, the secrecy of their lives, that even after all that time, she couldn't talk to us. So we took the pictures. I said, mom, I've got to have the pictures. And we took them back. But I think that's when it really hit me what their lives must have been like living here at that time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right, that even that, which was only tangentially connected to Hanford--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Exactly.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yes. Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was very secret, right?</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let me ask you a few questions. So first of all, what was your father's name?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Harold E. Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: Harold Taylor, okay. And your mother's name?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Doris C. Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And so it was the three of you when you--well, your father came initially, and then you and your mother came.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Right, in June.</p>
<p>Bauman: In June of '44. And you mentioned the dust storm.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Termination wind.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, and you said that it could hold about 250 prisoners at the camp at once.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: So it was minimum security. So what sorts of--but they were federal prisoners.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: They were.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what sorts of crimes would these men have committed?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: The vast majority of federal prisoners were not necessarily minimum security, but they were white collar crimes. In some cases bank robbers would sometimes fit into the category, depends on the nature of the individual. But bank robbers weren't necessarily restricted from ever being in the so-called minimum security camps. And, see, we went back to McNeil Island, where my dad then took over the minimum security part of McNeil Island Federal Penitentiary. And so some of these same prisoners went with us back over there. That's kind of an aside, but it's part of explaining to you, or answering your question about minimum security and who qualified. I'll finish that answer first. A lot of them were conscientious objectors. And in fact there's correspondence in the files where prisoners would be sent here to Columbia Camp, but they were always—the conscientious objectors—they were always being monitored, talked to, perhaps convinced that it would be to their best interest if they would revoke their claim to being a conscientious objector and go back and join the Army and basically reinvent themselves in society. And there's a few prisoners did that. We've even got in those boxes, we've got a couple letters that one or two of them wrote to my dad personally thanking him. He's gone back, he's gone in the Army. He feels better about himself. So we've even got that kind of stuff in the file. Anyway, then, just as an interesting aside, when you talk about minimum security versus the hardcore inside the walls type, like at McNeil Island, state prisoners—murders, that sort of thing—of course they're maximum security. But any white collar crime, including—might not sound like white color crime—but bank robbery, that sort of thing, there can be any number of--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: In those days.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor:--forgers. There can be any number of kind of people that aren't really hardcore criminals, but they've made mistakes. They've done things bad. But they know that they're decent people. And these are the people that, even on McNeil Island, again, same as here, they would stay in a minimum security area and do the weeding, doing the gardening, doing the orchards, doing the fields, like over there like they were doing here. My dad, as superintendent of the camp at McNeil, we had kind of a beautiful estate, ranch home estate with about an acre and a half of rockeries and gardens and rose trellises. And we had five--as a kid, I never mowed the yard. I had five prisoners that—we did, the family did—that took care of our yard and our place. It was kind of a strange childhood that I had. But that's what minimum security means, that they could be trusted. They were called trustees, as a matter of fact.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so about how large of a staff was there working at the camp?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Here at Columbia Camp, there were 24. 24 with families, and then there were another ten to 12 that lived in Prosser, Benton City, some of them right here in Richland that would come to work. So there was less than 40 total staff, 24 of whom were on site with families.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Tell him the story that you were telling me about Dad writing a note about getting these guys to come in on Sunday for roll call.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Oh, it was one of the notes, one of the memorandums to his officers in the files that I read. It's something to the effect—no, I guess it was a memo to the entire camp, to the prisoners and the officers. And it's just kind of a tongue-in-cheek, that it seems to be hard to get prisoners to make bed call or duty call or account for themselves on the weekends. And it was just kind of an interesting, the way he wrote that even on the weekends, they still, after all, are prisoners and have to account for themselves. They actually only had I think it was three escapes. Nobody actually ever fully totally escaped. They had three that walked away, but they were caught along the river on the way to Benton City. So that was part of the minimum security idea is that they weren't particularly threats. They knew they just needed to serve their time and get out. And so they weren't trying to break out.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: And where could they go? That's the desert. There's no transportation. That's one of the stories Dad did tell me about two of the guys walking to Benton City. And of course they didn't get there because there's nowhere to hide.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how old were you then when you came here?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: My birthday's in July, so I was six years old when we moved here in June. And as I said, it was D-Day. And then just turned seven in July, and then I was ten when we left in late '47.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And so what was that like as someone roughly between the ages of seven and ten living out here in the camp in initially a Quonset hut? Is that right?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Initially in Quonset hut and then in a prefab. Well, first of all, six-to-ten-year-olds don't really think about hot and cold. The only thing that we were ever really cautioned about by our parents is it's a little problematic to go running around in the desert barefooted. There were rattlesnakes. Never got bit by one. Saw a few. But we had the swimming hole right there at the bend of the river for summertime, spent a lot of time in the swimming. The pictures you can see the two rows of Quonset huts. It was kind of, I call it a parkway, which wasn't necessarily what you would call a bunch of grass in 1944. But nevertheless, there was a grassy strip, two street, two roads for cars, and the Quonset huts and in the middle grassy strip that that's where we played our soccer and mostly soccer that we played there as kids. And we were either in the river, out there in that strip, or just wandering out in the desert barefoot. And with our bicycles, there's a picture I've got showing me standing beside a tree that was very near our house that I crashed into and cut my head open. That sort of thing as living here as a kid. We were typical kids, even though we were--in fact, my entire life growing up was always subject to prison service. We lived on McNeil Island, which was, when we went back, I mean, my grade school and my high school years, I went to school in Lakewood Tacoma, Clover Park High School. But we still lived on the island. We had to catch a prison launch back and forth every day. As kids growing up, none of us ever had the typical life experience of just walking to the store, walking to the theater. We didn't live on Swift and could walk down to the Village—to the theater. We never had those kind of experiences. Speaking of the theater, we did get to come into town. Our parents would carpool or whatever, and we'd come into town to the Hopalong Cassidy, Tom Mix movies on Saturday afternoon at the Village Theater here in Richland. But it was never anything we could ride our bike to or walk to.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, about getting into town and how often you were able to do that. And what was the town of Richland like? What sorts of memories do you have?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, I mean, you've got all the pictures as a historian. You know what Richland basically looked like in 1944, 1945. It was like that. I mean, we came into school. The first year I said we went to Sacajawea. The second year, we from then on went to Jefferson. We would become friends with kids in the class and do things with kids in the class, but it was always more difficult. I was in Cub Scouts. My dad would have to drive in to make separate arrangements to go, and to some of the other kids out there as well, to come in to the Cub Scout meetings. One of my memories, and I'm not sure why, but one of my memories was one of the girls’ parents had--and I don't quite understand it now, but her parents had—I can't say they owned, but maybe they did—a large enough piece of ground that she could ride her horses. And I remember some of us—and it was like right here. It was straight north from Jefferson that we would come out of town, although not very far, and ride horses out here in the open prairie. And it might have been right here. I don't know. But we were able to socialize to some degree with the kids in town. But again, one of the things that I have to say, it's like my mother. Even as kids, talked about secrecy. We were instilled with absolutely every bit of that, just like the adults. We absolutely were. And it was just a way of life, so we didn't question it. We didn't try to violate it. We just--everything was secret.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you didn't talk to anyone about the camp at all really?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Just that we lived out there. And that was all.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. So did you know what Hanford was, what was going on?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: No, not until the bomb was dropped and the paper headline right here in Richland. That's when we knew what was going on. The road now as you go out there is not the same road it was then. What is Horn Rapids Road, which comes across—wherever we are—comes across, that was the road that we came in on. So we came in a little further north into Richland than we do now, where the intersection is. And so right at that corner right there was the beginning of the trailer camp where so many people were living and so many of the kids in school with me were living in the trailer camp. And there was a wire fence along the road, and so we just knew we were outside the fence, and something was going on on the other side of the fence. But we didn't know what it was—until the article came out in the paper.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned, so, the prisoners, would they get transported, then to different fields--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: They were bused.</p>
<p>Bauman: --to different farms then?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: There were like, I think as I recall in reading the files, there were sometimes as many as ten different gangs or groups, for lack of a better term, that were bused out to the various sites. And that's part of what's in my dad's files is just the logistics of taking--they called it dinner then--lunch out to feed everybody at lunchtime, and just the difficulties of that sort of thing in running this prison camp. Because some of them out in Vernita, for instance, they basically had to leave with the lunch service right after breakfast to get it out there. Because the road, the road was not great going out to Vernita from here. The road that we drive now and think nothing of was basically just a dirt road in those days going out there. Because the road, the paved road, bent south and went to Benton City when you go out that way. So yeah, there were a number of different orchards. I can remember clearly the—what are now all the Richland ranches on Cottonwood and Birch and Cedar, all those where all the Richland ranches were ultimately built in 1948. All of that was cherry orchards. And we always had one or two crews harvesting the cherries, for instance, right here in town. And a couple times my dad brought me out and actually I helped them pick cherries. So that's just one of my memories is picking cherries in what is now that major housing part of Richland.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. Now, so, in 1947, when the camp closed and you left, I assume maybe your mother was probably happy about going back to the west side? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Extremely, yes, extremely happy to get back to the cool west side, yes.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: She was a tiny, tiny, lovely lady, a teacher. Heart and soul a teacher, and totally supportive of Bob's father. But she wasn't happy to be here at all. [LAUGHTER] And she was very, very happy when they finally left.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned she taught at Columbia High School.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: What did she teach?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: English, primarily English. And she was in charge of the journalism one school year.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: She had to quit teaching, though, because of her duties as--and the words are official hostess of the camp, which is really interesting. She organized bridge activities, social activities, to keep the wives that were thrown out here in the middle of the desert happy. Because of course they weren't working, very many of them. So she worked that first year at Hanford, and then she quit and was kept busy keeping activities going on for the women and children.</p>
<p>Bauman: That’s very interesting. Were there a lot of children around your age you were able to play with?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I'm trying to remember. There were, of my own specific age that were my closest friends, there were seven of us that were either within one grade one way or the other. I think there were some older kids that came into high school. Our bus—I think there were about a total of 12 or 14 of us rode the bus into town. There certainly weren't two kids in every household of the 24 officers that worked there. Some of them were more senior and kids were grown and gone.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you have your own bus, then, that would just take a group of kids from the camp?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I guess, yeah, we must have, that there was just a bus that came out and got us and took us back into town. There was nobody else to pick up. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: And do you remember how you felt about first of all coming here? Do you have any memories of that, and then when you left in 1947?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I certainly had no--at age six, everything in the world was exciting to me. I think I mentioned earlier heat and wind, that sort of thing didn't really mean much of anything to me. I have no recollection of being upset about being here, other than knowing that my mother was upset about being here. I liked it here. I had good friends. I was kind of disappointed to go back to McNeil Island. Three of my closest friends at camp that were out there too--let's see, Kenny and Jerry and—</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Were they out there then?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah. There were, I think, five of us actually went back to McNeil Island. So, at least I wasn't--had my friends going back there with me, which made it better. And then we had a very--from a prefab in the desert, we went back to a fairly palatial estate that we lived on because of my dad's position, so I liked that. And then that next year I started junior high at Clover Park. And so starting then I went back to--I rode the boat to Steilacoom and caught the bus to school. And then I was off on a whole ‘nother part of my life. I think I'd say I was probably happy to be leaving, but not the way my mother was happy to be leaving.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Well, I think it was a pretty idyllic childhood for kids like this. They've got the free reign of the desert, within reason. They've got the swimming pool. Nobody was worrying about jumping into the Yakima River. And they had friends, and they'd go into the movies. We've got a picture of Bob--we think it's Bob--with his buddies. There was a picture in Richland years ago at the post office there was a little museum.</p>
<p>Bauman: A kind of display.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah. And there's a picture of the kids outside the Uptown--not the Uptown, the old Village Theater. And we're pretty sure he's there. But the stories he would tell me, running around, riding their bikes, it was--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I just think of it as fun and unique. I really do.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: What about the stories about Dad and the baseball field? They had a baseball field there for the prisoners, for their recreation.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, at the camp.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, that was their big activity on the weekends. They had a very nice ball field. Again, there's pictures of it outside of the administration building. And my dad was a good guy. For somebody in 1934 to survive starting as a prison guard at McNeil Island, those were tough times. Those were really tough times. I don't mean living as a family, my mom and dad. I mean just as a human being who felt some degree of emotion about people. Prison guards anywhere in any prison in 1934 were really tough, mean guys. They had to be. But when he came over here, he really--and it shows in his correspondence--he really had a lot of humanity and caring. And he ran a really great camp here and has lots of letters saying so from people, from superiors. What started me on that was just her idea about the baseball. He wanted to make sure that they had sporting activities to do things with over the weekend.</p>
<p>Bauman: Recreation and entertainment.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: I find it very interesting neither of your parents really talked about this stuff, but they kept--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah, oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: --the photos and the documents that you didn't even know.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah. We didn't realize they had all that.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: And Dad would talk about it a little bit. It wasn't like he never talked about it. But he told me the story one time about the prisoners escaping, and he talked some of these things. But it wasn't something that you talked about very much. It was once in a while. I mean, like every few years there'd be a comment. But Mom didn't talk about it at all, other than the teaching, which of course she loved to be a teacher and loved doing that. But it was a very, very quiet non-discussed part of their lives.</p>
<p>Bauman: Are there any other either events or things that happened that were humorous or special things, memories that stand out in your mind about your years here?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: One of my major memories actually was the very first summer we were here. And three or four six-year-old boys never, ever, ever, ever got in trouble. But for some reason, we chose to go into the crawl space underneath our Quonset hut. I mean, there was no foundation in the sense you’d think of a foundation. But there was a raised floor and so there was space under there with snakes and bugs and spiders. And my parents never specifically told me, don't ever go down there. You'd sort of think that was understood. But three of us, one hot, hot, hot day, we thought, well, it was just boiling hot outside. It was boiling hot in the Quonset hut. Those things are not fit for human habitation without air conditioning. And so we got the smart idea it might be cooler down there in the crawl space. So we got down in the crawl space, and then for some reason some guards--I say guards—some of the men came around doing some kind of a check of the housing. I don't know what they were necessarily—but here we were, little boys where we were pretty sure we weren't supposed to be, and the adult men walking around sounded like we just knew they were looking specifically for us to get us in trouble. That's kind of silly, really, but it was a big thing for me as six years old to be down there where I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be and knew what kind of trouble I was going to be in when they found us. The other thing is the coming into the shows in the afternoon and standing in the line outside the theater. And, as I say, Tom Mix, and Hopalong Cassidy, and whoever else, the Saturday afternoon shows at the theater. I remember going to those a lot.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: One of the fun things that we go out to there. We hadn't been there for a few years, out to the camp. It's just kind of fun to walk around and realize what was there--the families, the men—brought together from all over the country for one purpose. And they fulfilled their purpose and kept the orchards going and the fields, and then they left. And to me there's a lot of kind of neat spirit and ghost—ghost isn't the right word. But there's a sense that there was something really interesting, good happening here—good or bad depending on the way you looked at it. But it's just an interesting place to go and walk around out there. You should do it sometime.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. And a unique place.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Very unique, very unique. And it's fun to walk around, and we think we found the kitchen. So I'm thinking about the guy making the good cinnamon rolls. He was there. And you think you found where Dad—where the office was.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I can identify where the administration building was. But the various cement foundations or partial foundations that are still out there can pretty well match up with the pictures that we have from back then.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, great. Maybe this might be a good time, then, to sort of end this part, unless there's something we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to in this part of the--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, I've covered the things that I certainly, the bullet points that I had in mind that I wanted to cover. There's probably always more things to talk about. Part of it is sitting and having the box and going through and pulling a piece of paper might remind me to say something else. But I feel comfortable right now in saying that anybody watching this interview is going to know a whole lot more about what Columbia Camp was about than they knew before. And that's the main point of what we're trying to accomplish here.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: There were no fences at Columbia Camp.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Right.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: There were no fences.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Right.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. And these were all male prisoners, right?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, well, maybe this would be a good time to end this part, and then we can look at some of the photos and have you comment some of those.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: I wish that they had shared it with--Bob's mom and dad had shared it with us sooner, because there would be so many more stories and so much more understanding.</p>
<p>Man one: Okay, so I'm going to give this. Why was it located--I mean, I know it was located for the orchard support and stuff. But why where it was? Ever hear why it was located?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I don't specifically know, other than it was near Hanford. It was on the river, which helped with the infrastructure. It was away from this burgeoning 1,500 population big town of Richland.</p>
<p>Man one: And yet kind of remote.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: And kind of remote. I mean, it was remote for those days.</p>
<p>Bauman: Like you said, escaping was tricky because--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah, it was far enough.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Man one: It was Alcatraz in its own way.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Well, it was. It was, because it was--I mean, can you just imagine being out there and trying to escape? And how are you going to get water? It's the true desert.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I guess the real answer is, if you realize that Hanford took everything from here north and they weren't going to go across the river, and here's Richland, and down there is Benton City, and this is the Yakima winding out there and just kind of a nice little bend in the river of the Yakima.</p>
<p>Bauman: I love that they call it Columbia Camp even though it's not--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Isn't that funny?</p>
<p>Man one: I know, it's great. Close enough.</p>
<p>Bauman: They didn't know their geography very well.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah. We know it wasn't Bob's father because there were guys from Washington out here long before that. But it's kind of interesting.</p>
<p>Man two: Well, [INAUDIBLE] will bring that light around, put it behind that camera if it'll reach. If it won't I'll bring--or just unplug it and I'll move this cord.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: What you doing?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Just got one minor issue. I'm just seeing if anything's--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah, this guy had no clue what it's like to be raised in the city, because he started--</p>
<p>Man one: The stories that you tell remind me of this other guy I knew that had grown up--his father was in the Navy. And he grew up on Midway, I think. Midway or Wake Island where it was a mile this way, and it was two miles that way, and that was it.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Man one: And as a kid, he loved it. Down at the beach, having a good time, going to the movies, all he wanted, soda pop and all that stuff. But the parents were going crazy.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Well, when we got this little note from Bob's mother--there's pictures in there of the women of the camp. And if you watched at all the Manhattan Project TV show that was on for a while, these gals are—it's the same women.</p>
Duration
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00:45:43
Bit Rate/Frequency
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189 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
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1944-1947
Names Mentioned
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Harold E. Taylor
Doris C. Taylor
Kenny
Jerry
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Bob and Dianne Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob and Dianne Taylor conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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06-10-2015
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
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2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
1955
Dam
Hanford
Manhattan Project
Park
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Road
School
Sun
swimming
Theater
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd24bb8f61d5a3ab812b92b65fdb12fb3.JPG
4603d9664f2a0077ae96546b4e6df8ea
Dublin Core
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Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Robert Franklin
Interviewee
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Bob Ferguson
Location
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Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
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<p>Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Robert Ferguson on December 21<sup>st</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Bob Ferguson: Yes. Robert, R-O-B-E-R-T. Louis, L-O-U-I-S. Ferguson, F-E-R-G-U-S-O-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great, thanks. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work at the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I was in the Army. I had spent three years in the Army and I was at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. And a friend of mine stopped by that was sort of at the end of my obligation, and his father had worked here. His name was Fred Boleros. And he told me about GE here at Hanford. So, it was my first job when I applied when I left the Army, was with GE at Hanford. They accepted my application, and that’s how I happened to come to Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what was the job that you applied for?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I came under a program called the—[LAUGHTER]—bear with me.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Can you cut, can we cut, or you’ll cut?</p>
<p>Franklin: We can edit.</p>
<p>Ferguson: We’ll edit?</p>
<p>Franklin: After the fact, yes.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay.</p>
<p>Emma Rice: Tech grad something?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Yeah. The tech grad program. It was the tech grad program. It was a program to—for GE to find out what your interest was as well as their interest in you. So, anyway, I signed up for that, and I had three assignments with that. One in operation, one in reactor physics, and one in radiation testing. My permanent job—my first permanent job with GE was as a reactor physicist at C Reactor. But we did physics work—at each of the reactors, there was an onsite physicist and an onsite engineer. We rotated to all of the different eight reactors in the course of our assignments during relief work. But I was permanently assigned to C Reactor—C Reactor Physicist.</p>
<p>Franklin: C Reactor?</p>
<p>Ferguson: C Reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and where is that located in relation to B, D and F?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, as you probably know, the first reactors were B, D and F. And then HDR and then H, and then C Reactor in K-East and K-West. So C Reactor was one of the newer reactors, before the K-East and K-West design. And it was collocated with B Reactor in what was called the BC Area. They were right next door to each other.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And was that based off of the same design as the B Reactor?</p>
<p>Ferguson: It was a different design. Higher power level and a little different fuel design. And because it had a higher power level, it had also a higher flow rate.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of water?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Of water, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. And how long did you work as a reactor operator?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Physicist.</p>
<p>Franklin: Reactor physicist, sorry.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. Well, actually I was asked—I guess because of my interest in operation—I was asked by GE management to go into their management program, which was an accelerated management program. And so that took me into operations. And so to accelerate the learning process, they had a school in the evening that they sent us to. But also, we had supplemental crews. For each of the shifts, there was a supplemental crew that went from each of the reactors, in the case of outages or in the case of startups, where they needed extra people. So you learned in the supplemental crews, all of the operation of all of the reactors in a very short period of time. So from there, then, I was assigned as a shift supervisor at B Reactor. So I was an operating supervisor at B Reactor. In fact, I was the youngest of shift supervisor that GE had at the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. Where were the classes held for the management program?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, there were two kinds of classes. There were—WSU had—actually there were—WSU and some of the other western universities had a program here. But they were technical programs, and then GE in the same facilities, in what—the old barracks area, near where the DOE headquarters is now, the RL headquarters, in that area. But they no longer exist. They were in huts.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, Quonset huts.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Quonset huts, yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: World War II—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Had you gone through any other—before you took the tech grad program with GE, had you had any training in nuclear physics or anything?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I had a degree in physics, and I’d also spent a year at Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville, Alabama in guided missiles. So, there was a lot of related work in the guided missile field to the nuclear field as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: And were you in the Army because of the Korean War?</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, I went into the Army from—I was graduated. Went to Gonzaga University and graduated in ROTC, and had a commission. And because I signed up for the guided missile program, I had a three-year commitment then, rather than just two years of active duty.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But it was—we were on alert in my junior year of the Korean War. And then the Korean War, fortunately, was over in my last year. So, I was able to miss that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. Can you describe the B Reactor as a place to work?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it was—actually, a fascinating facility. I don’t know, perhaps, if you’ve been there.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve been able to take the public tours.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But the operation of the reactors were fascinating. You can picture that there’s eight reactors operating 24/7, seven days a week. At that time, there was pressure for more plutonium for the Cold War. It was during that period of time when there was a lot of tension with Russia. It preceded, actually, the Cuban Missile Crisis by a few years. But anyway, there was intense pressure for production, so we were—GE was very sensitive about the time operating efficiency of the reactors and the power level of the reactors. B Reactor, when it was first designed was designed for 250 megawatts. And when I was last in the control room, we were operating over 2,000 megawatts. We used to—in order to get more power, we used to—Bonneville would lower water from under the dams so our inlet temperature was lower. The operation of the reactors—they went once through the reactors, and so they had to keep the outlet temperature below boiling. And so you wanted the maximum delta <em>t</em> across the reactor, you could get so the lower the inlet temperature, the higher the power level you could get, maintaining a safe margin in the outlet temperature. But also at that time, we were experimenting—I participated both in the physics side as well as the operations side—in the use of flattening of the pile. And by flattening, I mean flattening the flux so you could get more power level, or better distribution and more production, in any one cycle. And so we used—we experimented with splines, which were boron designed things that would go under the process tubes, and you could jack them in actually from the front face of the reactor in order to flatten the flux of the reactors. We also did poisoning at that time of the reactor. A temporary poisoning, so we could start the reactors up at a higher power level. Because the operation of the reactors was very complicated, because you had different temperature coefficients that affected the reactivity of the reactor. So you had a positive graphite temperature, but that was—the graphite would heat up over time. And so that would increase the reactivity, and you had a negative temperature coefficient—fast reactor coefficient. And then the coefficients would change as the amount of plutonium occurred in the reactor. And so the operation of the reactors were really dictated by the design coefficients, but, more importantly, by the discovery of xenon and iodine, which shut the reactors down when Fermi was here. That was—they didn’t even know about the xenon absorption of neutrons at that time. And so when the reactor was first started, it shut down. And they had originally—perhaps you’ve heard this story, that originally the reactor was designed for about 1,500 process tubes. But then DuPont doubled it to 2,004 in order to—for safety margins—and they needed all of that safety margins to override the xenon. But anyway, when you’re at steady state operation, and then you shut the reactor down, then the buildup of iodine that then decays into xenon, and xenon is a poison. So if you were operating at full power and the reactor scrammed, you had a very short period of time in order to bring the reactor up to power level. Otherwise, you were down for 30-hour outage. So that meant that you lost production during that period. So we basically devised what we called quickie plans. This was especially true—we were experiencing a lot of ruptures at that time because we were pushing the envelope of the design of the fuel. It would rupture, and then we’d have to get rid of that, because they’d been once through on the water, the radioactive material would go directly into the river. So anyway, when we had a rupture, we would need to get it out of the reactor. But you only had a few minutes. At that time because of the power levels we were operating at, we only had about 15 minutes to recover. And that meant planning a crew in the rear and the front, and alerting the people in the powerhouse, because you had to bring the water pressure down. But you had to keep plenty of water on the tubes, because otherwise the temperature—outlet temperature would be very high. So you had a very difficult time to valve on the front. So I would go—I would basically stay in the control room and have a supervisor in the front and rear. And then when we shut the reactor down, we would do all of this valving, kick the rupture out, and then restart. And you’d have to restart the reactors to about two-thirds of the power that you were at, otherwise you’d go sub-critical, and you’d be down. So it was a very delicate challenge to start it up to a power level that you could—without running out of rods, then, because also the higher power level, the more reactivity you had. So, it was a—it’s something that I learned in physics, because that’s what the physicist did. He calculated all these transients. So when I went into operations, it was sort of natural for me to be able to manage this kind of thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. And so—that’s also, like, kind of real-world application of all of that physics that you had learned, right?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: How did—I think it’s hard for people who—especially younger people—to imagine doing all of that without digital technology. It’s always been something that’s really fascinated me. And I’m wondering if you could speak to that or if you’ve ever thought about that at all, that the kinds of—maybe you could talk a little bit about the kinds of equipment you had to work with, and the limitations of using the analog readouts in the control room.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, that’s a very good question. The reactors had to be operated when you started them up—what we called a blind startup, because we didn’t have instruments that told us how subcritical we were. So, you had to—the physicist would calculate the reactivity coefficients for the operation, and depending upon the precursor operation, would determine exactly what the startup conditions were. But because we couldn’t measure the subcritical condition of the reactor, we had—we pulled to about—well, it’s called 100<em>n</em> hours subcritical, then pulled into that. But we had people at a PC manually, if you can imagine, manually counting the count rate as we approached criticality. Because if you pull too many rods out, you can get into a fast period, which will shut you down. So we had to do all this manually. And you probably, having seen the control room—you had 2,004 process tubes. Each one of those tubes was monitored for pressure on the inlet and temperature on the outlet. But those gauges had to be manually moved and adjusted by a crew in the front of that panel—the panellette, that whole 2,004 panel in the control room, right to the right of the control panel. Anyway, you had a whole group of people on startup in ladder-like things that would roll those gauges, instrument man on the rear, but he had to keep the gauges within a range, or you’d trip. So as the water pressure came up, you had to roll all of those. But this was all done manually. And then we had ways of—we had devices that calculated the power level, but it was very deceptive. So those of us that had been trained in physics could basically do a lot of those calculations in our head on the power level. Because what I’ve experienced—I’m sure others did, too—that if an instrument failed, say a flow instrument failed on one side of the reactor, it would indicate you’re only at half of the power level that you’re actually at. So you needed to look at other instruments, and you learned to look—like there was an instrument called a Beckman instrument, which monitored the radioactivity on the rear face. So by walking the control room and looking at all these different instruments, you could check one against the other. But it was all very, very, very, manual. And we did our physics calculations on Marchant calculators, you know, the calculators you punch.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Ferguson: We did all our physics calculations on those at that time. And they were just introducing the IBM 650. GE had a computing facility where we would punch the cards and get some central computing for some of the physics work that we did. And that’s also where they kept track of the production in the reactors. If you could imagine keeping track of eight reactors with 2,004 tubes—there were more than that in the K reactors—but the six older reactors. And keeping the production in each one of those tubes was a function of the flow through that tube and the reactivity and the temperature of each one of those tubes. So you had to keep track of how much plutonium was being produced, because if you leave the fuel in too long, the buildup of plutonium-240 builds up. And so weapons-grade plutonium is about 6% to 10%. So we were operating at getting really pure weapons-grade plutonium. Something below the—at least 10% of 240, because it was—in the early design of the bombs, they found that if plutonium-240 spontaneously fissions, it creates a background. And if it’s too high, it’ll get a premature detonation of the bomb beforehand. So that’s why we had to manage the production. And that’s why there were frequent shutdowns. Unlike commercial reactors, where you operate a long time. And that’s why people confuse—plutonium that’s produced in commercial reactors has a high 240 content which is not good for weapons.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, interesting, okay. So you’re saying—I just want to paraphrase so that I can make sure I understand. So you’re saying that it was the nature of the weapons process that the fuel would only be in there for a short period of time in order to get—and it’s plutonium-240—which one is the--</p>
<p>Ferguson: Is low. 239 is the weapons grade.</p>
<p>Franklin: 239 is the weapons-grade.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And 240 is the low grade.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so that you wouldn’t build up too much 240. So—</p>
<p>Ferguson: And that required a frequent charge and discharge of the reactors.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so in some way, then, the energy reactors by nature are just not really meant for weapons.</p>
<p>Ferguson: They’re the opposite of that. You want them to run. The Energy Northwest reactor which I was responsible for building—it was called BNP2 at the time. But they recently set a record of running for over two years without a shutdown.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because you also want—when you’re producing energy, you want a reliable output of energy—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, fixed, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: You don’t want to be starting and stopping and have that kind of fluctuation in the grid.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s really—I think that’s a good basic point to have established for anyone who’s doing research on that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But an interesting subset of your question about instrumentation. Rickover, in the nuclear navy, who relied on analog instrumentation and ways of measuring things. Because he wanted people to really run the reactor all the time. He didn’t want any risk of that. So it was a transitional period in the nuclear business. And some of the instrumentation that was designed to detect neutrons was very new at the time. Even the badges that we wore, at that time, did not detect neutrons, both fast and slow. And so we had to do experiments on the front face of the reactors to be able to predict what dosage you’d get from neutrons, rather than alpha, beta, and gamma. Because it was not known then exactly the biological effect of neutrons on the human body.</p>
<p>Franklin: Given that the reactors ran, most of the time they had 24-hour shifts, I’m wondering if you can describe to me kind of an average day as a nuclear physicist operating the B Reactor.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it depends—well, let me answer that by, when you—at that time, you couldn’t drive your car out to the Site. So you came to the 700 Area, and there was a—lights up there that indicated which reactors were running. And that told you, if you were a supplemental crew, which reactor to go to. But anyway, to answer your question, if the reactor is operating normally at full power, it’s very—typically, you’d go in and you had about a 15- to 20-minute transfer process from one crew to the other. We kept a detailed log of the activities during our shift. You’d do a—we would typically do a count of the uranium slugs that were stored in the front face so that we’d keep materials accountability. So we would make sure that from shift to shift, there was a transfer of accountability for the slugs that were there. There was a transfer of any ongoing activity that would be taking place. But during normal operation, we had two operators in the control room and then a chief operator. And then the other operators would be picking fuel up out of the basins. That was all done by hand. If you’ve seen the reactor, the fuel would come out, go down in chutes. But all of those fuel elements had to be picked up by hand through the water—through 20 feet of water, put in the buckets, and then those buckets would be transferred under water over to a station where the railcar would come in from the 200 Area, all underwater. And then that bucket that contained the radioactive slugs would be, then, taken by railcar over to the 200 Area where it would be reprocessed. So, that—typically, then, you’d do maintenance work that could be done when the reactor was running. And then you had a daily routine of walking through the whole reactor. It’s very interesting; you could—Robert, you could tell, after you’d been there for a while, by the sounds if things were okay. If there was a shrill sound where the water pressure coming through, the water flowing through the reactors, and all of the different fans had different sounds. So you walked the reactor—always walked, went to the rear—in the rear of the building is a little place with a lead glass shield that you could look through to see the rear face. So you’d check the rear face for any anomalies, for leakage, or anything like that. And then you’d have your—we always had a health physicist on each shift. He had his rounds to check on the radiation levels in different areas. And different areas were controlled depending on whether there was radioactive material or contamination in the area. We had step-off pads, where you’d go from one area to another. Dual step-off pads, if you had a highly contaminated area. And the people—some of the crew would sort laundry as well. Because we went through a lot of laundry, because you had to change into what we called SWPs, special material when you came on shift. So anyway that would be rather routine. Now, during an outage, or during a startup, then you have a beehive of activity. The place that we—the shift supervisor had total control and authority over the running of the reactor. So even the manager and other people that were there for startup, they would have to leave, because of the intensity of the operation during startup. So, if it were an outage, you went into—you were doing charge/discharge. So you have a front face crew and a rear face crew, and you’re doing a lot of physical work. The charging machines would—you’d have to load them up by hand—load the slugs by hand. So it was—it’s hard to explain the level of activity that was going on during an outage. Because we would have maintenance. We would have some maintenance on the process tubes that had to be removed because they were leaking. So we’d have to—the maintenance people would come in and remove those. So it was very, very, very—it’s like a huge manufacturing operation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But a lot by hand. So the dichotomy between—you’ve got a very sophisticated—you get no sound from the reactor itself but a lot of sound from everything that runs the reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: The water and the electronics and everything.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. And the reactors were cooled by—inerted by gas by helium and carbon dioxide. And so one of the auxiliary rooms was a place where you controlled mixture of the helium and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of the reactor. Because you could change the reactivity by changing the temperature of the graphite. You could heat it up with CO2 and cool it off with helium.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. So how long did you work as a reactor physicist—nuclear physicist and shift operator?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, nominally about two years as a physicist and about two years as an operating supervisor. So it was about 50/50 while I was here. I’ll tell you, interesting story. Probably we don’t want to put it on television, but—on September 27<sup>th</sup>, 1960, I was—it was a Tuesday, and I was starting the reactor up. And I got a call that my wife’s water had broken and she was on the way to the Kadlec Hospital to deliver our second girl. So it was the first time in history a reactor went critical the same time a woman went critical. [LAUGHTER] I could tell you exactly where I was standing in that reactor out there when that happened. I’ll always remember that. And Kadlec Hospital at that time was just Quonset huts, as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah, wow. Thanks for sharing. [LAUGHTER] Where did you—I’m assuming you guys lived in Richland while you worked out at Site, right?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so you lived in Richland during—so you would have lived in Richland, then, while it was a government town and then also during the transition.</p>
<p>Ferguson: When we first came here, the government owned the town, and we lived in a B—I was going to say B Reactor. [LAUGHTER] Okay. We lived on Kimball—1524 Kimball in a duplex.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And then the second home here was a ranch house. But then, while we were there they sold. And when we were first here, GE provided coal. We had coal for our heat and lightbulbs. Those were all provided. I think we paid $47 a month rent at that time. And then the town was sold off. And our neighbors had the right to buy the B house.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because they had been there longer than you?</p>
<p>Ferguson: They were one of the original occupants. And so then we rented from them. So we were here during that transition.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you describe that transition? What you remember, or your thoughts on it?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it was very interesting. When we first came here, there was—and one of the reasons that the road system is the way it is is because of the security in the town. There was only one road in at the time and one road out. And that’s the way—you had to be cleared in order to live and work in Richland during that time. And so we—you know, we had a bus system that picked us up. We had a—during that time as well, those of us that worked in radiation levels, every month we’d have our urine sampled. And so the people that worked there set their bottle out by the front door to be picked up and monitored. So then as the town—after the town was sold off, then, there was more interest in changing the—upgrading the buildings, painting, and more things like that. So you could see the evolution from a government-owned town to private ownership. More and more attention to yards and things like that. So we—my wife and I—my family experienced that transition. And we left—came here in 1957. I left here in ‘61 to go to Argonne. And then we came back in 1972, and the town had totally changed, then. When we came back, we looked at a couple of houses in Meadow Springs and the realtor told us it would be pretty iffy to buy there, because that may not go. And there was a dirt road at that time between that and Columbia Center. Columbia Center didn’t exist when we were first here. We came back, and here’s Columbia Center. So having left here and come back, we’ve seen this transformation of the Tri-Cities. Rather remarkable.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And how come you left Richland in ’61?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, actually I was in the control room of B Reactor when we heard about an accident in Idaho called the SL-1 accident.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve heard about that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: It was a military accident that killed three military people. Anyway, it’s kind of a long story, but I’ll make it pretty short. Part of the accident investigation indicated that there was no one AEC organization responsible. The reactor was designed at Argonne in Chicago at Argonne National Lab, but built and operated by the Army at Idaho. And they Idaho office wasn’t responsible; Chicago wasn’t responsible for making sure. So anyway, I was recruited by AEC to go to work up with the AEC to set up the safety program for what was then called the Second Round reactors. These were commercial reactors that were built to encourage the development—commercial development of nuclear power. But Argonne had a lot of reactors at the time, both at Idaho, as well as at Argonne. Both thermal reactors, research reactors and fast reactors. And so anyway, I was recruited because they were looking for people with actual physics and operations experience to work in safety. And so, shortly after I was there, I was sent to Oak Ridge School of Reactor Technology for an accelerated program in state-of-the-art safety. But then we—anyway, then we did a review of all the reactors under Chicago. And those were reactors at Idaho, reactors at Santa Susana in California, Atomics International reactors. And then we had commercial reactors at Piqua, Ohio and Hallam, Nebraska. And—oh, there were two other ones, anyway, that were funded by the AEC, but privately owned. But the safety responsibility was the AEC. So anyway I went back there because of the emergence of the need for people with actual operating experience. There were only two places: that was Savannah River and here at Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And up until that time, you had not worked with commercial reactors; you’d only worked on production.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Yeah, there were no—no, that’s correct.</p>
<p>Franklin: So can you describe that transition? How was that for you? Even though you would have had operating experience, like we talked about earlier, the operation of the commercial reactor is almost opposite. The purposes are very different. And so I’m wondering if you can describe that transition.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it’s also a cultural transition. And one of the difficulties in the development of commercial nuclear power was because of this cultural issue. Some of the utilities were oversold on the ease with which nuclear power could be used to produce electricity. And so they didn’t understand the need for the training and the quality assurance and the rigorous of operation. And that led to some accidents in the early days, because the utilities really were not sensitive to that. Admiral Rickover was even worried that the private sector, the commercial sector, was not able to manage nuclear. And he was afraid that they would have accidents. And that’s why he built and operated Shippingport, which was one of the first commercial reactors, but it was built by the Navy. But anyway, it was a cultural change. And after the SL-1 accident, it was really a wakeup call even within the AEC for the need for rigorous oversight, rigorous design review, design construction, and operation. The need for safety at all of those areas from the time you procure a piece of equipment, to its built, to its put in operation, and then maintained. All of that was new to the industry. So I actually lived through that transition, I guess, if you would call it that. Because GE was—and DuPont were very rigorous in their safety. Very rigorous. Because people didn’t really know much about nuclear power at that time, or nuclear energy.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re saying some of that safety-consciousness kind of came over from the folks involved in production, who then went on to commercial.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve—when talking to people similar to yourself who’ve been in the industry, very familiar with nuclear production and power, I’ve often heard that the nuclear industry is one of the most tightly regulated and safe industries, or focused with safety. And I’m wondering how you feel about that statement, how you would respond to that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it is, because of the potential or the risk. Even though the commercial, there has been no deaths in the commercial nuclear industry in the United States, the potential is there as well. I can just give you a little feel for that. Three Mile Island was a very bad accident, but nobody was hurt. I was there. I was—fifth day of the accident, I was in the control room of Three Mile Island. It was really a bad accident, but nobody got hurt. On the other hand, I was at Chernobyl after that accident. That was a very, very bad accident. A lot of people were killed in that accident. People don’t really understand that—going back to your question about the rigorous safety requirements—Russia did not have a requirement for containment for their reactors. So, Chernobyl had no containment. You couldn’t build and operate that kind of a reactor in the United States. So, one of the issues that emerges from the rigorous safety criteria is the difficulty in transition to new instrumentation, for instance. Because you had very prescriptive regulatory requirements, it was more difficult, basically, to introduce new design, new equipment. And it’s one of the difficulties of the nuclear industry, unlike cars where you’re changing them often, it’s very expensive to build one. And then it’s hard, as innovation and changes take place, it’s hard to introduce those in the course of the licensing. So our licensing system has changed somewhat. You used to have to have two permits for commercial reactor. A permit to build it, and then another permit to operate it. Now those are combined into one, because you wouldn’t want to spend all the money to build a reactor and then not be able to run it. And for the antinuclear community, they used that as a way to stop the operation—or the startup of a lot of reactors. That caused a lot of expense, too. So anyway, it’s been a dynamic change, but not as rapid as your iPhone and changes like that, which can be made very quickly.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, thank you. Really illuminating. I really like that you mention that there was a cultural transition into the commercial reactor, and I assume, there, you’re talking about dealing with utility companies, but I’m also wondering, was there—did you also work with—because you mentioned fast reactors. Did you also work with scientists and people from the university side of operations when you moved into commercial power?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And was that also part of the cultural shift?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, for instance, going into Argonne—Argonne was where the nuclear technology started. I mean, Argonne came from Fermi’s work in Chicago, basically. All of those scientists went to work at Argonne. And they didn’t like to be—scientists don’t like to be regulated or overseen. And so that’s the reason that the reactor—many of the reactors that Argonne worked with were put in Idaho, in a remote area, where you could do a lot of experimentation away from a big city. So that’s where the series of reactors called the BORAX Reactors, where you could actually explode them—pull into a fast period and cause a prompt critical. But you could do that in Idaho because it was so remote. But anyway, it was always a certain amount of tension between research. And one of the current issues right now, there is so much regulation in commercial reactors, it’s hard to introduce any new technology. For instance, Bill Gates is investing in a reactor being designed in China. And he would do that here, but he went to the NRC and it’d take him 24 years to get a permit just to build it here. So, the rigorous licensing process also inhibits development of new technologies. And we don’t really today have a good answer for that. We need to have an intermediate step where you can work on new reactor designs that are not ready for commercial operation yet but need to be run. Because unless you can do experimental work, you can’t develop anything new.</p>
<p>Franklin: But that experimental work is held up by the regulations—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Of the regulations, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you think the public has an inadequate understanding of nuclear technology in general, and nuclear power specifically?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, there’s a lot of work has been done with respect to why people fear nuclear which is really very safe, statistically. The probability of being hurt by a nuclear accident is essentially zero. Yet, people will get in their car and they’ll drive their car. So there’s a lot of psychological fear. And a lot of that fear, we think, comes from the use of nuclear technology for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In other words, the notion of equating weapons with nuclear power. And that has continued to this day, because many people don’t understand here at Hanford the difference between commercial waste and waste from both the Second World War and the Cold War. It’s a very different issue, but people think of it all as one. And one of the problems is that with the evolution of the organization that manages that. I mean, I worked, when I was head of the FFTF project, I worked for the AEC, I worked for ERDA, and I worked for the Atomic Energy Commission in the same job. And so you can understand then. And that—the weapons program is still in the Department of Energy. I’m a big advocate of removing it, because—and removing the waste from the commercial—to create a separation. As long as they’re managed together, how do you expect the average person to believe that they’re not one in the same thing? Or that the issues are not one in the same thing. So that fear of nuclear is real. And there’s been a lot of work done about why people fear it when it is not really unsafe. And generally you find that the people that work with nuclear are very comfortable with it. And the farther away you get, the more fear there is. For instance, here at Hanford, people are very used to working with it. We have clean water. You go over to Seattle, they want to tell us how to—why to be afraid here at Hanford. Well, we live here. We drink the water, we eat the fish. We’re not fearful of it, because we’ve lived with it. We know it. So a lot of that is proximity.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, thank you, I appreciate you expanding on that. It does give it a troubled reputation, doesn’t it? Since the birth of nuclear energy is related to death and bombings and then was a very visible part of our very large stockpile of nuclear weapons.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And it still is a threat with the proliferation. And it’s a huge threat.</p>
<p>Franklin: And to have a peaceful arm of that, though, I think to some people maybe they confuse both heads of that same—</p>
<p>Ferguson: That’s not unnatural that they would do that. The other thing that’s happened, you know, we had—Three Mile Island happened right after Jane Fonda’s movie, <em>The China Syndrome</em>. And then we had Chernobyl. And then we had the accident in Japan. So these big accidents get a lot of publicity. And there’s a lot of fear that comes from the reporting of that, which isn’t always accurate. Because the nature of reporting is to make things dramatic. And so it gets dramatized in the public. So it probably will take generations to—people to address that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because certainly our current—where we get our current energy from is also a problematic source of energy, in terms of its political and human and environmental costs.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. The irony is that 20%, nominally, 20% of our electricity comes from nuclear. 70% of the carbon-free generation—70% comes from nuclear. And so there is no way the country can ever meet its goal of carbon emissions without a greater use of nuclear power. Because solar and wind are both intermittent. You can’t store them. For instance, if you had to rely on them during the cold weather we just had—we had no sun, it was cold. Where would you get your energy? Where would you get your energy? And the other thing that people really don’t understand is that both wind and solar are nuclear energy. Their source is nuclear energy from the sun. The sun—and the earth gets all of its energy from radiation from the sun. Yet people don’t think of that radiation as bad radiation. They think of that as good radiation. And other radiation, from nuclear power, is bad radiation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting, I don’t think I ever thought of it quite like that before. But it’s very true.</p>
<p>Ferguson: All of the weather comes from absorption of energy from the sun in the oceans, creates the wind, picks up the moisture, delivers it. That’s where we get our hydro power. Solar power—all of that is nuclear energy from the sun. The sun is our source of nuclear energy.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, even in a way then oil is also from the sun, because it’s decomposed carbon matter—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Originally—</p>
<p>Franklin: Originally.</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, really, it preceded the sun in the sense that it was a part of matter when it was created at the Big Bang.</p>
<p>Franklin: True. So I’d like to go back—tell me about coming back to Richland to work on the FFTF. What brought you back from Argonne to Hanford?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, the people—the assistant manager at Argonne for the AEC I had worked with there—and he became the manager of the Richland Operations Office. And then another fellow I had worked with there, Alex Fremling, became his deputy. And so they asked me to come back. They were having a lot of difficulty with the management of the contracts here. And I’d had a lot of experience in project management at Argonne in both high energy physics and reactor projects, and a lot of experience in contracting. So anyway, I came back and I was originally head of contracts. And then shortly after that I was made technical director for the Site. That was at a period when—or at a time, in 1972, when 106-T leak occurred. That was the 105,000-gallon leak that really was the first major leak of radioactive material from the tanks. And it’s the first time the public then became aware of the real problem here at Hanford. And so I was on the investigating committee for that event. And we went back to—Dixy Lee Ray was Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission and then subsequently our governor. But we asked for a supplemental appropriation--$20 million supplemental appropriation to start building double-shell tanks. So that’s when we started building the double-shell tanks, thinking that there would be a solution fairly soon. And I can take you all the way back to when I was with GE, I did some—one of my jobs there, I measured some—the radiation level in some of the tanks, because as early as that time, GE was concerned about leaking tanks. Because the radioactive material in the tanks stratifies. The radiation level is different and it creates a temperature stress in the tanks. So we were—as early as then, we were worried about tanks leaking. Now—that was 1958, ’59. Here we are in 2016 and we’ve got leaky tanks and no solution. [LAUGHTER] Not much progress.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sadly no.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Anyway then FFTF was in trouble from a cost and schedule standpoint. So I was asked to set up the FFTF Project Office. And the manager of Richland went back to Washington, and he became head of nuclear energy in Washington. His deputy became manager here—Alex Fremling became manager here and so they—we’d all worked together. And so they asked me to set up the FFTF Project Office.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And that’s when—in 1973—I stayed here until 1978 and then Jim Schlesinger, the chairman of—Secretary of Energy for DOE asked me to go back and take over the nuclear program in Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what do you feel like you got accomplished from ’73 to ’78 on the FFTF Project Office?</p>
<p>Ferguson: We built the most remarkable fast reactor test facilities that’s ever been built. At the time that I was asked to take it over, there was a member of the—Bill Anders—who was the astronaut that went around the moon the first time. Anyway, he was a member of the AEC. But he helped me get the project office set up based on the way NASA set up their offices: decentralized. But he told me that the FFTF was far more difficult technical job than putting a man on the moon. So the development of the technology that we developed and demonstrated with FFTF was really incredible. And a lot of that technology’s now being given to Japan—to China—for their new development program. A lot of the sodium technology, the fast reactor technology. So we accomplished a lot. But it didn’t—and then it got killed. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right, it did. I wonder if you could talk about that. What happened to the FFTF?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, at the time FFTF was built, the policy of the United States and the Atomic Energy Commission was to reprocess and have breeder reactors. And so that you would take the fuel from commercial reactors, reprocess it, take the plutonium out of it, use that plutonium for fuel for fast reactors. So essentially, by using fast reactors, you have basically an unlimited supply of energy. So that was the policy when FFTF was built. Clinch River was to be a commercial demonstration plant at Clinch River in Tennessee. Clinch River was killed when Carter came in. Carter killed the breeder program because he thought that—first of all, he didn’t think nuclear was going to be here to stay, and he didn’t want to—thought reprocessing would facilitate the spread of nuclear weapons around the world. Because when you do reprocess, you can use that same technology to extract plutonium for weapons. So it was killed for that reason. And Carter was pushing coal at the time, saying we had, essentially, an abundant supply of coal. And so he thought that nuclear really wasn’t going to—it was a last resort, as he put it. Because of our lack of reprocessing, we have influenced the design of Yucca Mountain for the deep geologic storage. Because at the time that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act in 1982 was set up, there was a conflict between those that wanted to reprocess and those that didn’t want to reprocess. So Yucca Mountain is designed for retrievability. It’s designed for permanent storage of defense waste, but retrievability of commercial waste. So at some date in the future, it could be reprocessed. Because about 90% of the energy value is still in fuel once it’s discharged from a commercial reactor. So anyway, that decision has affected a lot of subsequent issues that the country has faced.</p>
<p>Franklin: How come the program didn’t come back under Reagan?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, in January of 1982, I was asked to participate in a—that’s when Reagan was president, and George Bush, Sr. was his vice president. And he called a meeting that I was invited to, to discuss what was going on in nuclear at that time. And at the time, I was head of WPPSS. And the cost estimate—this was post-Three-Mile Island. The cost estimate for plants was going up, they were having delays. And so Reagan called this meeting from executives to find out what could be done with nuclear. Well, as a result of that meeting, then, we were instrumental in getting the Nuclear Waste Policy Act started which he then proposed as a way of dealing with commercial nuclear fuel. Because up until that time, there was no solution to commercial nuclear fuel. So—and there still isn’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: There still isn’t. Because Obama killed—or tried to kill the Yucca Mountain project. But we stopped him from doing that. I was one of the principals—law suit that the courts ruled that he didn’t have the authority to do that. But he stopped it. So now there is no solution, yet, to what to do with commercial fuel. So commercial fuel is now stored all over the United States at all of the reactors.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. How did you become involved with the WPPSS project?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I was recruited out of Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re just back and forth from here to Washington and then back.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, people that had known about my success in building FFTF and turning that around—and it turns out Senator Jackson was one of those. And so when I was recruited, I’d been in the government 20 years, and I was still pretty young. I didn’t want to leave the government, because I had no retirement. I wasn’t old enough to retire. Anyway, Senator Jackson told me that if I would come out and solve the WPPSS problem, he would make sure I got back in the government. Well, a long story short, I came out and I did solve, I think, the WPPSS problem. But I also had open heart surgery and ruined my health and then Senator Jackson died. So I never went back into the government. He died and I never had a pension. So—[LAUGHTER] so that’s what WPPSS did to me! But anyway, I was recruited—going back to your question—there was a national recruitment because of the difficulties WPPSS was having building the plants.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did you work at WPPSS for?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Three years, ’80 to ’83.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what did you do after that?</p>
<p>Ferguson: I started up a company, R.L. Ferguson and Associates, a consulting company. And we sold that to SAIC. And then I started up another company, Nouveau Tech. And we acquired a nuclear waste facility that’s out here, now it’s called PermaFix Northwest. We acquired that out of bankruptcy from ATG. And then in 2007, I sold that to PermaFix. And since then, I’ve been writing books and consulting.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re still not retired.</p>
<p>Ferguson: No. I’m still consulting.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still consulting. But still on—</p>
<p>Ferguson: And I’ve written two books on the nuclear waste issue, so—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, great. Well, which two books are those?</p>
<p>Ferguson: <em>Nuclear Waste in Your Backyard: Who’s to Blame and What to Do About It</em>. And the first one was called—I can’t remember the name of it. Something about Obama and Reid wasting money. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah. Tell me about your involvement with the Tri-Cities Nuclear Industrial Council, TRICNIC, which later became TRIDEC.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, after I left WPPSS, I was asked to be the chair of TRICNIC. Because I was kind of in a period when I was trying to recover for my health. And so Sam Volpentest was the executive vice president, and Glen Lee was publisher of the paper then, and Bob Philips was the president. And they would ask me to be the president of TRICNIC. And then because of the need to diversify the economy in the Tri-Cities, we merged TRICNIC with the Tri-City Chamber, and that became then TRIDEC. And so I was the first president and chair of TRIDEC, when it was formed. And Sam stayed on until his death. He worked up until he died. And then Gary Petersen took over his place to head up the Hanford part of TRICNIC.</p>
<p>Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about working with Sam Volpentest.</p>
<p>Ferguson: There’s been a whole book written about that. [LAUGHTER] Did you read it? The godfather?</p>
<p>Franklin: I have, yeah, <em>The Community Godfather</em> by C. Mark Smith.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Much of my life is in there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: [LAUGHTER] But anyway, no, yeah, he was one of those remarkable people that you know in your lifetime. He worked right up until he died. I told a story at his funeral—a eulogy—I said, you know, the clock was set right after 5:00 because he wanted to put in a final shift before he died. [LAUGHTER] So he died right after 5:00. [LAUGHTER] But Sam was very devoted to the Tri-Cities and the economic development of the Tri-Cities and spent his whole life on behalf. But he was probably largely responsible for my—or one of the reasons for taking over WPPSS, because he was close to Senator Jackson. I had worked with him in the community on FFTF as well. When I took over FFTF, we not only—the prior head of the nuclear in Washington had testified it would be completed for $187 million. But we didn’t—not only couldn’t you complete it, we ran out of money that year. And Sam was instrumental in TRIDEC—or TRICNIC was instrumental in getting a supplemental appropriation to keep FFTF. That’s one of its early, early almost-deaths. So I started working with Sam in the community at that time. So then when I left WPPSS, I was asked to get more involved.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. I’m wondering if you can remember or can tell me about any kind of notable events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you were working out there. I think you would have been gone for the JFK visit, which was in ’63, but if there were any other—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, I was at Argonne then.</p>
<p>Franklin: But if there were any other notable events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you worked there.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh. Other than the leak? 106-T leak?</p>
<p>Franklin: Pretty notable. Or maybe in general in Tri-Cities history, or any—did you ever go to any of the Atomic Frontier Days parades or anything like that?</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, I didn’t, no. I’m trying to think of—well, 10,000 people marched in support of keeping WNP-1 alive. Have you ever seen that picture?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes.</p>
<p>Ferguson: 10,000 people, can you imagine that?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes, yeah, that’s—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Supporting nuclear power? Where else in the country could you do that?</p>
<p>Franklin: Not too many places.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I’m trying to think, what--?</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s okay if you don’t.</p>
<p>Ferguson: I really—I can’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s one of my stock questions.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Franklin: You know, in case something pops up.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So, I guess—let me look over this.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Probably told you more than you want to know!</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, we’ve covered quite a bit. And I just have kind of one last question that’s kind of a wrap-up question. But I’m wondering what you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland in the Cold War.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I think it would be very important, and I think it’s even important for this generation to understand the circumstances under which people operated the reactors. There’s been a lot of public criticism about the fact that we discharged waste into the ground. And people just, I think, don’t understand the pressures and the circumstances. The major thing people should understand is that Hanford was very carefully chosen because of the potential risk of an accident or even discharge of radioactive material. The selection of Hanford is unique in the location. The 200 Area, it’s unique in the sense that under the site is a layer of caliche, it’s like cement. Overlaying on that is sand. And they looked up on this as basically a way to hold up the radioactive material and they put it in the ground. And so it wasn’t just people being careless or anything like that. There were the pressures and unknowns. People didn’t know a lot about nuclear, but there was an incredible safety record in spite of all of that. So anyway, I think the big disappointment I have is that the waste hasn’t been take care of, and it’s mostly a political issue than a technical issue. It could have been taken care of a long time ago, but it’s terrible. It’s an issue that has become politicized.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because sites with smaller amounts of waste have been able to encapsulate—begin or even in some cases finish encapsulation programs like West Valley, Savannah River—have been able to deal.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And most of our waste out here doesn’t really have to be vitrified, either. It’s high activity, because of where it came from, by law. It came from reprocessing. But it’s high-level waste, but it’s low-activity waste. And so if you remove the cesium from it, you could basically secure the waste in a cementaceous form and send it to Texas. About 80% of the waste could be done and we wouldn’t even have to build a vit plant. So it’s been—the design of the Vit Plant was wrong from the beginning. The Hanford waste is unique from a lot of different wastes, in that it’s such a mixture of so many different kinds—it’s not homogeneous. So the design of the Vit Plant, rather than have multiple facilities to treat separate kinds of waste, they basically have a pre-treatment plant where they want to treat all of the waste to make it in a consistent form to feed into the melter. Well, the pre-treatment plant is what’s stopping everything. So there’s been a lot of—you know, I’ve lived through about three or four different starts of the Vit Plant. So, I’ve seen it, and it’s very frustrating to see how political it has become, and a lack of science-based decisions that are made.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I’ve seen some of the bumper stickers, I forget exactly what they say, but I’ll paraphrase here: Vitrification in 2007, or Hanford Vit Plant. You know, 2007 or 2004. And then we’re—it’s 2016 and we’re still waiting.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Still waiting. Still no—</p>
<p>Franklin: Perhaps—as you said, perhaps for a plant that is not the best approach—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: --to the problem. Well—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Sam Volpentest predicted before he died that the Vit Plant would never be built because of the cost. And now you’re seeing it being questioned because of the cost. People are saying, why do we have to spend this kind of money? Because it’s—about $3 billion comes here every year for Hanford, including Battelle. But it’s a huge amount of money. It’s like the WPPSS plants. People used to say, well, we have to build them no matter what. Well, they got too expensive and the need for power went away, and so they didn’t get built. So there comes a price when things are not affordable. And there’s not really a risk to the river. The waste needs to be treated and cleaned up, but there’s no risk, really. There’s no health risk. The flow of the river is so great, any material gets in there is so diluted you can’t even detect it. But that’s not a solution. Right after 106-T, Battelle did some studies for us, just what-if studies. And we said, what if all the waste went in the Columbia River? Well, downstream, it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s so dilute. Not that that’s—I’m not advocating that at all. But it just shows you that the risk to the health and safety of the public is not—does not demand what we’re doing with the waste out there. It doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taken care of. I’m just—because at one time Sam and I faced some members of Congress who wanted to put a fence around Hanford and not do anything with it. Just leave it there. [LAUGHTER] So, anyway. I’ve been there, done it.</p>
<p>Franklin: So at least we’re away from that solution.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I hope we’re not going back there. But when the price gets so high, people away from here and the demand for money in the budget gets so tremendous, it’s—strange things can happen.</p>
<p>Franklin: They sure can.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, Bob, thank you so much for coming in and interviewing with us today.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay, Robert.</p>
<p>Franklin: I really appreciated it.</p>
<p>Ferguson: I hope I didn’t cover too much for you.</p>
<p>Franklin: You did a great job; we touched on a lot of really great things. So thank you.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:14:41
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
700 Area
C Area
B Reactor
Vitrification Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1957-1961
1972-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1973-1978
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Fred Boleros
Admiral Rickover
Alex Fremling
Bill Anders
Clinch River
Sam Volpentest
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Ferguson
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob Ferguson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-21-2016
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-01-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
200 Area
700 Area
Atomic Energy Commission
B Reactor
Backyard
Battelle
C Area
C Reactor
Cold War
Department of Energy
DuPont
Energy Northwest
Hanford
Mountain
NASA
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Savannah River
School
VIT Plant
War
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2cc5a9df175464365af258afc976817e.jpg
19a8294780b3335126190a2f93e00cdd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
George and Marjorie Kraemer
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Victor Vargas: Okay.</p>
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer on December 9<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with George and Marjorie about their experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full names for us, starting with George?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: George R. Kraemer and Kraemer’s K-R-A-E-M-E-R.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Marjorie Kraemer, K-R-A-E-M-E-R.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And George is G-E-O-R-G-E?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And Marjorie?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you. So tell me how and why you—did you both come to the Hanford Site together?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so tell me how and why you both came to the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was at the University of Wisconsin--</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --in 1955. And I had a friend that was out here. And he told me about all of the deer hunting and the fishing, and all the good things. And he enticed me to come out.</p>
<p>Franklin: There wasn’t much of that in Wisconsin?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yeah. But going out West—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --that was new. And so I drove out in April of 1955. I already had a job out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And I stayed at the dorms—M-5, as I remember.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was your job?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was a lab assistant first.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: From April of ’55 to May of ’56. And then I transferred to drafting department.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: This was at General Electric. And I was in there for—oh, from ’56 to December of ’65.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And then I was asked to take another position. With—it was actually with Isochem. And it was—oh, engineering analyst, shop engineer, I went through all of those where I worked in a shop where they built vessels for Hanford—for PUREX, for REDOX, B Plant, T Plant—must be one more in there. And I did inspection of them. Fantastic job. Did that for—oh, quite a few years. Then in April of ’75, for another two years, I was a shop planner. I planned the activities of the shop—fabrication shop. And then in July of 1977, I was asked to be manager of this facility—of the shops. They had six separate shops, you know, like machine, tool and die, boilermaker, sheet metal, rotating equipment, welding lab, and all that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: A fun job, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I kind of liked that; that was down my alley. Then in April of ’81, I was asked to manage activities of the design drafting group in 200 Areas. And I had—supervising the unit managers, engineering designers, drafters and engineers. Then in April of ’84, I was manager of specialty fabrication design and fabrication engineering support group. Again, this had drafting, designers, checkers, a few engineers. Then Westinghouse came. And I was asked to be the manager of design services which had all the drafting for Westinghouse.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Did that for a number of years. And then--[LAUGHTER]—then my manager was a director, and I told him one day, you need an assistant. I said, I’m going to retire in due time, and I said, you need an assistant. And he looked at me kind of odd. But anyway, six months later he called me up, and he says, would you be my assistant? Had a good job. Nobody reporting to me. I did engineering quality counsel, the PRICE program, and Great Ideas, employee concerns, Native American outreach, the Signature Awards for Westinghouse. I wrote a few speeches, some for the president of Westinghouse.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was kind of a good job! Then I wrote a little note here, I retired after 36 years on July 31<sup>st</sup>, 1991. 36 years, 3 months and 19 days, or nearly 9,500 work days, over 106,000 hours at 8 hours a day and over 6 million minutes at Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, you really broke that down to the very last second.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But what I’m most proud about, except for that first transfer, all of my jobs, I was asked to take.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I thought that was—said something for me, anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: And Marjorie, how did you come to Hanford?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, he came out, so—[LAUGHTER] And so we were engaged, and I came out in May. And we got married out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: May of—would that be—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1955.</p>
<p>Franklin: ’55, okay. And you guys were married here in Richland, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, in Coeur d’Alene.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Coeur d’Alene, beautiful up there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t work that first summer. I came in May. And then I got a job at General Electric in September, in the finance department.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked in the 700 Area downtown. And then they reorganized—or disorganized, I used to call it—[LAUGHTER]—and split up. And then I had to go out to the 200 Areas for a few years. And then I quit at the end of 1958 and had our children.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: After they—our son was in kindergarten, I went to work for a doctor in town, a pathologist, for ten years. And then I went to work for Exxon Nuclear, Advanced Nuclear Fuels. Which was eventually bought out by Siemens, whom I retired with in 1991 also.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. And when did you start with Exxon Nuclear?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1975.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so you spent a significant amount of time—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And did you also do finance and accounting there?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, yes, in the accounting department.</p>
<p>Franklin: How—did you face any particular issues as being a woman in the workplace from the ‘50s—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, let’s see.</p>
<p>Franklin: Especially in that early era, you know, where women were first kind of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You couldn’t work overtime.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I remember when I worked out in the areas, in the 200 Areas, women couldn’t work overtime. For some reason. I don’t know if it was a union thing or a company policy or the federal government.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You couldn’t work alone, anyway.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. You couldn’t work overtime. They didn’t want you to work out there then.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you couldn’t work alone, either?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, in overtime, I remember when I was manager over there, if some of the ladies had to work, we had to have somebody around.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like a male supervisor or just a supervisor?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, somebody. Another worker even.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right. Interesting.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And it was different, living in Richland, because it was a government town.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And you had to—you probably interviewed people where you get on a housing list to get a house. And your name comes up, you go down and you look in this little glass deal where they had the list—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They posted of the new—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Posted them, and when you--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really? I hadn’t heard that. Could you describe it in a little more detail?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we put in for housing as soon as we got here. That was, well, in May. They had a posted board. Every week, they’d put a posting out there on the board and say who was eligible for a house. Finally, being the lowest peons out there, [LAUGHTER] we were eligible for a two-bedroom prefab.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. I live in one of those now.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Do you? Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So we got to look at two or three of them. Had to do it real promptly. And we choose one. 706 Abbott.</p>
<p>Franklin: 706 Abbott, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: In Richland.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: We lived there in town, yeah. It was different, because, well, the house came with appliances. Refrigerator, stove and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: What was it, $26?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: $27 a month or something.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: $27 a month or something for rent.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how was that comparative to—like, is that a pretty average rent, or was that a pretty good deal?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was cheaper because it was government.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was cheap. Of course, I didn’t make too much money back then, either. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Of course if something went wrong, you just called up housing and they came and fixed it. Or they gave you a new one. [LAUGHTER] You know, a new stove or whatever.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were they pretty prompt?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like, was the service—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they were.</p>
<p>Franklin: --pretty good?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They had a special group, that’s all they did was maintain the homes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And describe that atmosphere of living in a company town where everyone worked at the same place and, you know, it was landlords of the government. I wonder if you could kind of talk about that atmosphere.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, every Friday afternoon, <em>The GE News</em> would come out. You’ve probably heard of the GE News.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, we have copies of <em>The GE News</em> in our collection.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was the local one, and that was reading, and they had the want ads in there, which you always went because people were buying and selling a lot of things in that era. The—like she said, I remember the water. The water was—we had both irrigation water and house water. Two separate spigots there. And that was kind of interesting. That all come with our $26 or $27.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: After about, oh, I don’t know how many years it was, we got a—no, we bought that house. That’s right.</p>
<p>Franklin: In ’58, when they—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, ’58.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we bought that house. I think we paid $2,200 for it, as I remember.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They were appraised maybe $3,000 and then they gave you a discount.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And not too long after that, we moved into a two-bedroom—three-bedroom—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Three-bedroom, precut.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Three-bedroom precut.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That we bought on our own through the realtor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that one of the newer constructions?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was better construction.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: It was better construction?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The prefabs are made out of two-by-twos instead of two-by-fours for structure.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And plywood—quarter-inch plywood on the inside and outside, and some—insulation wasn’t too good in it, but it had a little bit.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, the insulation leaves a little bit to be desired.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It’s some sort of paper product, two inches thick.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Well, yeah, because those were made, originally, for the Tennessee Valley Authority.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to not last very long.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Short-term thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. And they’re still—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they’re still in use, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still around, yeah. Yeah, mine has been pretty extensively remodeled, but it’s still—still standing.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I do remember when we first came here that Richland had the highest birthrate and the lowest death rate of anyone in the nation.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: We were part of that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was likely due to the medical care, right?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The medical care, a lot of young people—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And everybody worked at Hanford and so they—you know, they were younger. There wasn’t any grandma and grandpas around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, other people I’ve interviewed have mentioned that, that when they—especially—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: There wasn’t older people, you didn’t see them in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, there was no one who was retired or—</p>
<p>Marjorie: Right, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No! You’re right on.</p>
<p>Franklin: So it was mostly probably people your age.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then children of varying ages.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You talk about the other things went on. We had limited places where we could go out and eat.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Like we had the Mart building. That was a popular place.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, they had a grease—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It had a drug store.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It had a little diner in it or whatever.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: A little dining area, things like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Little greasy spoon type of thing?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where was that?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was on the corner of where the post office used to be, on that corner there, across the street. And of course it was kind of like a Quonset hut.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, it was like a big Quonset thing.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And of course it’s been torn down.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Remodeled, anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Quonset huts haven’t lasted somehow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: When I lived in the dorms, M-5, for a month? Two months? Before we got married. And I was out here with a friend and she wasn’t out here yet. And then trying to get our food every night, we had to go eat in restaurants every night. It was kind of interesting. Very limited.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Compared to what you have nowadays.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, or even perhaps where you had come from in—was that University of Wisconsin, is that Madison?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. I imagine a college town would have probably had a little bit more to—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --for, you know. And so what about the night life? Did you ever partake in night life in Richland, or was there much of night life?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No. We just—we played, you know, cards and things with friends.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, a lot of cards. We had a couple friends out here already. And then we made new friends pretty rapidly. As I said, we had a lot of cards.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Played cards.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Camping. Did a lot of camping. I had a ’49 Ford—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --at that instance and timeframe. And the first summer we were here we were about camping every weekend.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where would you go, often?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, the Blue Mountains, north above Spokane—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Mount Rainier.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mount Rainier, a lot. That’s one of my favorite places.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: White Pass.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it’s really pretty up there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So that took a lot of our time in the summer.</p>
<p>Franklin: I bet.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Winter times were—well, we didn’t go camping. But, again, that’s mostly—we had a lot of cards and games that we played with our young friends.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And you hunted a lot.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, I did a lot of deer hunting and a lot of fishing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah. Well, you said that’s what brought you out here.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’m wondering if each of you, starting with Marjorie first this time, could describe a typical work day when you worked out on Site.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, let’s see. When I worked out in the Area it was a little different than in town, because I had to ride the bus. And of course, I think I got off about 6:00, and of course it was dark. And walked a couple blocks to the bus, and you paid a nickel for each way to go out to the Area, which was about 27 miles. And when you got there in the wintertime, it was dark. And you went in, and I worked in the B Plant, it was. And it was all cement, no windows. So you went in and it was dark. When you came out to go home, it was dark. So you never saw the sunshine until the weekend.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] In the summer, it was awful because not all the buses were air conditioned.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: None of them were. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, we had a few, I think, that were.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Not then.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, gosh. You were just soaked, you know, because it was so hot. 100 degrees, riding in this bus.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they allowed smoking on the buses. That was not good for us that didn’t smoke.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh you guys—both of you didn’t smoke?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Seems to, probably in the ‘50s, have been more of a rarity than a—or at least, seems like a lot more people smoked then.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: True.</p>
<p>Franklin: Especially, I can imagine, in the wintertime with closed windows, that would be pretty oppressive. So George, what about you? Describe a typical—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I worked at 2-East for the first nine months or so. And that was like her. Our 222-S lab, no windows in there. Get up early, ride the bus, go to the—where Stores is now, at the big bus lot there. So all of the buses would go into there, and you would get off your bus and take the appropriate 200 Area bus or whatever, 100 Area bus. And likewise, when you came home, you’d come back to that bus lot, get off the buses, and get to your route.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that time on the bus included in your work day?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was my time.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was included in your time. It was not included in your time?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, it was not included in--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, it was not included.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: So that was just considered part of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that a pretty fast transition though, from catching the bus by your home to go to the lot to then get on the other bus—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was fast.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was pretty efficient?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And the buses were pretty much on time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: For some reason, I mostly had express buses where we didn’t stop at the bus lot.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, later on, yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. And so then you said you’d get on the appropriate bus to the Area, and then—take me forward from there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Okay. We get on the bus there and I went into the lab, and that was an all-enclosed building again, no windows. And I did, oh, nuclear—not nuclear but radioactive waste disposal and things like that. We’d get a bus from 300 Area about once a week or twice a week and they would—not a bus, a tanker truck. Sorry about that. A tanker truck would come in and I unloaded that into some of our special waste tanks out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were these the tanks in the Tank Farms, or are these different tanks?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, that wasn’t the Tank Farm; that was the special area just for the 300 Area waste.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what would you do with the waste?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, the tanker truck would back up to a big nozzle, and I’d hook up the nozzles and drain the tanks. Let it drain for an hour or whatever it was, and then go back out and unhook the thing and wave the driver on.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what would be done with the waste at that facility?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was just stored.</p>
<p>Franklin: Just stored. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think we—outside of doing some sampling, which I didn’t do, that was it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Would that eventually go into the ground then?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And that’s when it would eventually go into the single-shell or double-shell tanks.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Sooner or later.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sooner or later, find its way there. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah. And then I transferred into drafting and that was downtown in the 760 Building.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Of course that way I could ride to work or walk to work.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that’s like pen-and-table drafting, right? Like on a drafting board.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Drafting board, yes. That was kind of nice, because I could ride bicycle, walk or take the car, whatever. And I’d get home at least when it was daylight.</p>
<p>Franklin: That seems like kind of an interesting job shift from handling waste to more of a technical thing like drafting.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, yeah, well, what started that, my boss wanted some sketches of flow diagrams and stuff like that. I said, I can do them. I did them, and he was impressed with them, and he says, you ought to be in drafting. And he led the way for me.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. What did you go to school for?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Engineering.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, just engineering in general?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and Marjorie, did you attend college?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. How did you gain the training for accounting and bookkeeping? Was it just all on the job?</p>
<p>Marjorie: Yeah, on-the-job training. And you could advance back then. Nowadays if you didn’t have a college degree, well, I don’t think you would go as far.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, yeah. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Another thing—I also took a lot of classes. GE at this time, they had engineering folks which would give us classes in various subjects.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that over here in the East Building? Or was it different?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I can’t remember exactly where it was. Sometimes—I think it was the Federal Building, I think it was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Just various things that would help me in my work and help me in my promotions, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Interesting. That’s kind of a—seems like so much was provided to workers in terms of training and housing, and I think it seems foreign to a lot of workers today to think of a company being that kind of paternal—caring, paternalistic almost. It’s kind of the vibe I get off that era of Hanford’s history.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah. While I was downtown in drafting there, we worked on—I was in the piping squad. We worked on facilities in the 100 Areas, 200 Areas, not 300 Areas then. So I got to know pretty much all the areas. And I went out to visit them on lots of times where you have to go out and see what is really there. You go look at old drawings and it may not be the same.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because you’re not looking at the as-builts.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: You’re looking at the older—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right, and so consequently, we made a fair number of trips out to the various sites regardless of where they were.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so you got, then, to see the whole site pretty well.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think I did, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Marjorie, what was—well I’m going to ask this question of both of you, but we’ll start with Marjorie. What was the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford?</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, [LAUGHTER] I’m not sure how to answer that. It was a good place to work. And it, you know, paid well. And I guess that’s, you know, the main thing. I wasn’t out for some big career or anything like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And, George, what about you? What were some of the more challenging or rewarding aspects of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, you know, we went through a lot of companies: GE, Westinghouse, Atlantic Richfield, Isochem—maybe another one in there. But the fact is, I never lost a day of work throughout 36, almost 37 years. I was never laid off. But I think the most rewarding was being recognized for my work. Being asked to take all these promotions. I think that was rewarding, to me. Must be doing something right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah. Great. Did the nature of the work at Hanford ever unsettle either of you? The, you know, just the--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kramer: Oh, you mean—</p>
<p>Franklin: The amount of chemical or nuclear waste or the possibility of—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Radiation.</p>
<p>Franklin: --Soviet attack or anything like that. Did that ever—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, you know, when we first moved here, the Army was still here.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Camp Hanford.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: At Camp Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they had Nike missile sites up on—not Badger, but—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: White Bluffs, out that way, didn’t they, across the river?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, White Bluffs, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: Rattlesnake?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, Rattlesnake! And you wondered about that. Planes would fly over every now and then. But other than that, as far as being attacked, no. And radiation-wise, I’ve learned to respect it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I never got involved in any serious things even though I went into some bad places, probably. But I never had—in the various canyons and stuff of the buildings. But never had any problems.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And same for you, Marjorie?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and of course I wasn’t out there all that long. But I remember when we used to travel quite a bit. When we would travel and people would, oh, where do you work? And I would never say Exxon Nuclear; I would say Exxon. [LAUGHTER] Because they thought we glow in the dark, probably. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, that seems to be—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was very common, regardless of where you went. Like, say, we travel a lot and you stand up and introduce yourself. You didn’t want to say a great deal, because they figured you—they didn’t want to be around you. You glow.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Some people.</p>
<p>Franklin: Why do you think that endures? Because today, even today, that’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Ignorance. Ignorance of radiation, like in the paper here and now, they said, we’re the other Chernobyl. No! There’s not that possibility.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because our problem is mostly chemical.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s not so much nuclear. I mean, there’s radioactivity—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, there’s a lot of radioactivity; there’s no question.</p>
<p>Franklin: --but it’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But it’s not going to explode. It’s not that type.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, we won’t have a meltdown. At least we can say that much.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history? I’m thinking of like plants shutting down or starting up—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: President Kennedy—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --came out here. I can’t remember the year now.</p>
<p>Franklin: September 14<sup>th</sup>, 1963.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1963, yeah, ’63.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or 17<sup>th</sup>.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Anyway, I was there. We all bussed out to—was that 100-N?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: He was out in 100-N, wasn’t he?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: 100-N, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Wasn’t it?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: 100-N, I think, wasn’t it?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: He came to dedicate part of the steam generating—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You know, incidentally, I did the first working drawings, the scope drawings, of the piping of the major process piping of 100-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was a fantastic job. I know one time I did my drawings, got them and they decided, hey, that’s classified, after the fact. I had to go through, collect all of my drawings and everything and then I had to secure my drafting boards and stuff like that.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But we did it.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I can remember in the 703 Building when I worked downtown in 19—I think it was ‘55 or ’56—Ronald Reagan came. Because we had the General Electric Theater.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s right!</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And he came through our building and was talking to everybody.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you get to meet him?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, uh-huh.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And did you also? Did he go to the Site?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I don’t—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I think you were out in the Area.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was out in the Area then. I don’t think I—I knew he was here, obviously. He was on—he toured some buildings, but I didn’t get to see him.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s pretty—that’s interesting. I’d heard he’d come, but I hadn’t met anybody who actually really—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, he came through our 703 Building—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So I imagine that was—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Where finance was.</p>
<p>Franklin: --quite an interesting thing to have a Hollywood celebrity coming to Hanford. And so did you both go to see President Kennedy when he came to dedicate the N Reactor?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t get to. Did you?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You were not working at Hanford then, I don’t think.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, no.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But anyway, the whole company [LAUGHTER] all the people were there that could be excused. They just bussed everybody out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And were you one of those people?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes, I was one of them people.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you kind of describe that scene?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, he was on the podium which was quite a ways away from me there. And he gave quite a talk, you know. Of course the excitement of hearing your President—or seeing your President was kind of interesting. And I really don’t know what he said anymore.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But I thought that was a major highlight. Another one, probably, is when General Electric decided they were going to leave.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And that was in mid-‘60s, right?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: ’65, probably.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that sounds right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: ’66, maybe.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: So describe that. How was the mood around Hanford and around Richland? Because General Electric had been so prominent.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it affected George quite a bit.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, it affected my pension.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Quite a bit. You know, I worked for over 36 years, and for those ten years that I worked under GE, that’s not included in my final pay—pension.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So I get—I don’t know. Very little a month for those ten years. It’s in a separate pension fund.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah. Why is that? That seems a little—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Because you were under—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The government works in strange and mysterious ways. And there were lawsuits and stuff like that, trying to get them to include our years in the master plan.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It was—one of the main reasons was you weren’t 35 yet.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s another thing, yeah, I wasn’t 35 yet. That was a condition to get vested.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: That was the cutoff to get that--</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: --included in your seniority.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you could start to invest, right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, vested. Anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And of course the big thing when Westinghouse came over to retake all of the—together—you know, GE split up and then we had various split-up companies, and then all of the sudden we’re back together again.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it seems like—one other person I interviewed a little bit ago remarked at how the contracting agency, the government doesn’t always seem to know—like, it tries one big contractor, and then it tries to split it up a bunch, and then they go back to one big contractor, and then they want to split it up a bunch. So I’m wondering if you—either you or both of you—can talk about that shifting of contractors and how that impacted your work and your life.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, in my case, same job. [LAUGHTER] Same boss, same everything. There wasn’t much new. Different name on the paycheck, obviously.</p>
<p>Franklin: But your unit stayed pretty intact throughout the change?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. There were no major reorganizations at first because of the takeovers of the different companies.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And, Marjorie, what about you—so you worked initially those first few years, and then later on you worked for Exxon Nuclear, which—was Exxon Nuclear, were they a contractor or a subcontractor, or were they just aligned with—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They were a private company.</p>
<p>Franklin: A private company, okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they just made nuclear pellets.</p>
<p>Franklin: So they were like a service company for Hanford?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no, they made nuclear fuels for reactors all over the world.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So they weren’t a Hanford company.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were private.</p>
<p>Franklin: So they were just in the same industry—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and so—and it was Exxon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It was Jersey—called Jersey Nuclear when I first started out.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And then it was Exxon. And then they changed to Advanced Nuclear Fuels under Exxon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And then Siemens bought them in 1989, I believe.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked for them for a couple years. Nothing really changed. And then I retired with Siemens Corporation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Which was a really pretty good deal, because they have really good benefits. German companies do.</p>
<p>Franklin: They are very well-known for that, yeah.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that sounds like a pretty decent deal.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I think they worked half-time, because when we wanted to call them up in Germany and talk to them about something, it seems like they were either on vacation or they had a holiday. [LAUGHTER] They were never there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Any memories of the, like, social scene or local politics, or just any—you know, either before the great selling, you know, the privatization or afterwards in Tri-Cities? Or actually, let me be more specific. I’m wondering if either of you can tell me about some of the protest activity that took place, or if you remember that, in the beginning in the late ‘60s and end of the ‘70s. Both kind of the protests that were pro-Hanford and anti-Hanford.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, we never did get involved in any of them. I didn’t.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I didn’t, either. There were no major protests that I really remember. I know one time, there was a few of them along the road when we went out before you get to 300 Area. They couldn’t get out very far then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But I didn’t really take too much interest in them. I figured they weren’t hurting anything.</p>
<p>Franklin: So the Tri-Cities up until the late ‘60s was pretty segregated in terms of where African Americans could live. Even though they could work at Hanford, they couldn’t always live in Richland for a while. And I’m wondering if you guys could—did you observe that kind of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --that Civil Rights action and kind of some of that segregation before the Civil Rights?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I remember that there were a few blacks—I don’t know what you—blacks going to the high school and stuff when my daughter was going. Well, the Mitchells were here, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, CJ Mitchell.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: CJ Mitchell.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And Cameron Mitchell was in my daughter’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Daughter went to school with him.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And she was good friends with him, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and he was one of the first—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: --people to get someone to sell him a house in Richland. He had a lot of struggle getting that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I don’t know what they did with the housing—government housing—if they gave it to—I guess maybe they didn’t give it to black people.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They had no choice then.</p>
<p>Franklin: I believe they had to live in east Pasco until the ‘60s.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think they could live in Kennewick, either.</p>
<p>Franklin: No, Kennewick--</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Kennewick was very bad.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, they had the sundown. The sundown laws.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. When we first moved here, I’d become good friends with an African. And we used to play cards with him, and go places with him. I thought we were well-accepted.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But he lived in Pasco, didn’t he?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. He did not live in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But—I said it was very plain to us, that—I say, Kennewick was very bad. And they didn’t even want to go to Kennewick, the colored folks.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to get out of town before, like you say, sundown.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Which is not very nice.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But, you know, it’s not nice to say, but they knew their place.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, well, yeah, they knew where they could go and couldn’t—where they were welcome and where they were not. Yeah, that squares pretty well with the historical record. Thank you for that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: When our daughter—after she graduated from high school, she went to WSU. And then she graduated from there. She got a nursing degree, and she went to Seattle and worked. And one of her comments once when she called me up, and she says, Mom, we really led a sheltered life in Richland, you know? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s interesting. I wonder if you could unpack that a little bit more. What would have been so sheltered about Richland for her?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I think, you know, she went to Seattle and got a job. And her first job was in the King County jail. She was a nurse in the clinic. And she saw all these prisoners and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Not the best clientele.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And that was one of her comments after she called me up—called me up and said, you know, we really led a sheltered life, after seeing all these homeless people and skid row, and—you know. It’s just different.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because I imagine Richland would have been a pretty solid middle class, mostly white—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still is majority, but mostly white, middle class. Pretty safe. If you didn’t work at Hanford, you didn’t live in Richland until 1958. And I imagine after that, it was pretty slow to change where most people who lived here worked at Hanford for—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think the police had a good—made their presence known, in a good way.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And I think that was the difference between Seattle living and outskirts of Seattle or wherever she lived.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, I imagine it would be in general an easier community to police where you knew everyone worked in the same place.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Everyone knew—or a lot of people knew everyone else, and you know it was—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But crime was very low.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, sure.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: First of all, you know the folks have clearances, things like that, that’s going to get a better grade of people. Because they went through all the rigmarole you have to go through.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I saved one of those questionnaires, those Q clearance deals. I still have it. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I left—when I filled mine out, I left two weeks of my life off of this—[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, no.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Of course it came back and they wanted to know where I was. [LAUGHTER] I was in transit to out here or something.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And so they wanted to know—</p>
<p>Franklin: Those forms went back, what, like ten years or something like that?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, it was—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Renewed or unless there was a need to upgrade.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: When I first filled it out, of course I was only like 20 years old. So I didn’t have that much to have to put on it. But they went back, and people told us, you know, we were from a small town and of course they told us, these people—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They were asking about you and all this—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, calling around.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They were wanting to know what was going on.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Yeah, I know, that’s—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Wanting to know where you went to school and where you worked back there. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I first got an L clearance when I came here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that a lower or higher—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s a lower grade. And then as soon as I transferred into drafting, I had to get a new clearance, a Q clearance, again. Which I had the rest of my time here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. Were they still any—I’m always a little fuzzy on my dates with this—were there any Atomic Frontier Days parades when you were here?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or were those over by the time that—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were here, and in fact, Sharon Tate—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, Sharon Tate was in that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: One of the first few years we were here, she was the Miss Tri-Cities.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Her dad was at Hanford, you know, Camp Hanford. He was an Army--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, that’s right, because I’ve always heard she was an Army—kind of an Army brat. Oh, really? That’s really interesting. I’ve oftentimes asked—I used to ask people about that question and it would miss a lot, so I kind of stopped asking about Sharon Tate. But that’s interesting that you remember seeing her?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, I remember they had parades down the main—one of the streets. I don’t remember which ones now.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you guys went to the Atomic Frontier Days and all of that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Why, certainly! Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, those were very colorful and kind of interesting events. Kind of wish I could have seen one of those in the flesh. Great. And so—gosh, you guys have already run down so many of my questions without even me needing to ask them.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: But I still have a couple. Could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy impacted your jobs, respectively? I’ll start with Marjorie.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, you just knew that you weren’t supposed to—you know, I was in finance. And so I saw all these numbers and all this stuff. And you just knew you weren’t supposed to talk about things like that. But other than that, you know, it didn’t really affect me all that much.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I know, going on vacation or something like that, or going back to Wisconsin. We’d go quite a bit. And, what do you do out there? And you know, in general terms you tell them. But I was trying to remember some specifics. I’m sure there were some to do with security.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It must have been very hard to work here in the ‘40s. [LAGUHTER] You didn’t know what you were doing, you know, you were building all this stuff.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we knew what we were doing, you know. What we were making and all this thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: You could talk about it to your coworker.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And not be afraid of being evicted from your home and losing your job.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I remember looking at an old paper. It said, big headlines: it’s bombs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes. Yes, that’s the <em>Richland Villager</em> from right after the Nagasaki bombing, yeah. Interesting. Do you remember, were there like searches or did they search people on the buses?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well--</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Going home. [LAUGHTER] A lot of times you just had to open your lunch pail up, and make sure there was nothing in it.</p>
<p>Franklin: You didn’t have any atoms in your pocket or anything?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They didn’t always look.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They didn’t always look, but every now and then they’d have a search day.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Kind of keep you on your toes.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And of course all of the cars at 300 Area where the major barricade was. You had to stop, open your trunks if you drove a car. And then if you went into the various—200 Areas, 100 Areas, you had to stop again or you parked your car in the parking lot outside and walked in. And if you went into the various buildings, like PUREX or like in the lab where I was there, you had a number and a radiation badge, and your name and a number you were assigned. When I went to 222-S, it was number ten. I must have got some big wheels for a number or something like that. I was ten. They would look you up to make sure in their file—they’d look at, make sure the picture matched you.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, and that would be every time you’d come in?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Every time you went in the building there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. That’s very tight security.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: When you—you said you had to go around the site a lot—how would you get around once you got—so you took the bus in, but how would you get from one area to the other?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Engineering department had cars—government cars.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And so then you’d just—could only travel in—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And we just traveled in government cars out to the various facilities.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. When did the bus service stop?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Good question. Let’s see.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Late ‘60s?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Hmm. Probably in that era.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Because when we built the new house, and it was in 1966, and you still rode the bus then.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: So I think it was in the late ‘60s.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I would say in the late ‘60s, it was.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Or early ‘70s.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so then—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And there was much frustration.</p>
<p>Franklin: To much frustration?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: On a lot of people’s part. Including mine.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really? Why was that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I loved that bus ride. I mean, I loved going out there for—it was changed to, I don’t know, 50 cents or something. It was higher price, anyway. The nickel was just to pay insurance and liabilities. But—so I had to drive my car out or get into a carpool, or whatever.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But then for a while, they stopped the service in town picking everybody up, and then you could go to the bus lot and catch a bus. For a while, for a few years.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, they stopped the rounds through town.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. That’s such an interesting structure of life, to have everybody in one town that all catches the bus, and—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] And work at the same—</p>
<p>Franklin: You know when the buses are coming and everyone kind of depends on it, and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s just such an interesting—seems almost kind of foreign to a lot of people today. And so you said that was kind of a chagrin that the bus—is that because you liked just not having to drive, or not—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I liked not having to drive. I knew that I had to be outside there at 6:00 or whatever it was every morning. And it was there. It was—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: You could read, you could do work—you could do all sorts of things.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: When I was manager out there for a while, I could do a lot of work on the bus.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I had my own philosophy. I did not like to take any work home. I had my briefcase and I would do a lot of stuff on the bus. That was 45 minutes of uninterrupted time, and I could get a lot of my work done.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, I bet. Yeah. Interesting. What would you either—both of you, sorry—what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? And I’ll start with you, George.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I think you’re doing part of it. [LAUGHTER] Let them know what’s going on. And you know, the kids never really knew what—really, what we were doing, I don’t think, in detail. Yeah, they knew in general. As I look back at the government—not too impressed.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really? Why is that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The stuff that goes on out there now—when we were—I was working, I felt I was doing a job. Things were going out—in the shops, things were going out the door. We were making things. Things were happening. I was proud of our work. Now I begin to wonder how long—you know, the Tank Farms have been undergoing their thing for years, and it’s going to be another amount of years before they do anything. It’s—not enough things are happening.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Marjorie, what about you? What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was just such a different sort of life, you know. You were kind of protected, I guess. You know, everybody, like, knew everybody, and you all worked at the same place, and your kids went to the schools in town. You went to the doctors that are in town. It was just a different sort of a—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, like your daughter had said maybe a little protected, sheltered.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Sheltered life, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s so interesting to me because—George, the thing you said about feeling like you’d done something—I’ve heard that from other interviewees who had worked in that transition period, who had worked when Hanford was producing and felt a real sense of accomplishment. And then kind of felt like it was mired down during cleanup and that the mission’s unclear, the work doesn’t progress. And Marjorie, it’s always been amazing to me to hear that, that it does seem like a really safe and peaceful place, but when you look at it kind of on—there’s a flipside to that, though. It’s amazing that there’s this safe, peaceful place next to nine nuclear reactors.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie: And you know—</p>
<p>Franklin: And you know, like a major target in the Cold War.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I guess that’s true. I don’t know. You just--</p>
<p>Franklin: But I think those two can exist side-by-side. That it could be, you know, a place of production but also of danger and a place of safety but also—you know, and of security. I just—it’s—there’s a lot of contradictions in Hanford that I think are really interesting that get brought out in these interviews. So thank you. Is there anything that I haven’t asked either of you about that you would like to talk about?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No. I’m sure I’ll think of some when I get home.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s very common. That happens all the time. I get emails a lot from people like--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --I wish I had said this.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, let’s see. I think when I was a shop engineer out there in the shops, best years of my life out there. Again, I felt proud that we were doing something, things were going out the door. I was responsible for a lot of critical measurements and things of—the jumpers, the tanks, and everything that we did in the shop. And then troubleshooting. There was some failures out there and I would go out to troubleshoot to see how we could fix things. Contaminated vessels and things like that. But those were good years. Best years I had out there. Management was good, but there are a lot more responsibilities. But those worked out, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Great.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I think the schools were—you know—were good.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: The kids had a good education, had good teachers.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, I’ve heard that a lot that people—there were a lot of well-educated people that worked at Hanford and at first Battelle—Hanford Labs, and then Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Labs. So that there was a high focus on education and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Another thing is, probably more so than now, but the school sports. Didn’t have too much else to do, so there was a lot of basketball games and football games and soccer games and all that sort of things that people went to. And they really supported the high school sports.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. You think that’s more then than now.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think more then than now. There was less to do.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, it was a little more of an isolated community.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And of course this year they went to the—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, this year’s different. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: --the tournaments. But when our daughter and son were in high school, they were always going to tournaments. And I always had to take kids and chaperone, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Ah, it was our pleasure.</p>
<p>Franklin: I see that you’ve brought some things. Would we be able to scan those and keep them with part of your—with your interview?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You can have those. That’s my work history.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, great, we’ll scan this and put this with your interview, too.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And she’s got some pictures there, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Are these family pictures, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, these are pictures of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, they’re--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Out at Hanford. This is one when I worked out at the Area. This was a million man hours without an accident, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow, okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they had a fashion show. And this is me right here in radiation outfit, you know, that we modeled the—we modeled the outfits they wore in the contaminated labs and all that.</p>
<p>Franklin: And which one are you? Are you the one in the white cowl?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I’m the one right—with the—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: All covered up.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, kind of a little hard to tell. That’s great. That’s a great picture. Ah, yup, General Electric Photo Division.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, would we be able to scan these and put them with your interview?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: That would be wonderful. Okay. Great. Well, thank you again, thank you both so much. ITts been a really excellent interview.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Good!</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: You did good.</p>
<p><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/cnCDk351BVY">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:57:59
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
B Plant
N Reactor
T Plant
Tank Farm
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
~1955-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
~1955-1991
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy
Sharon Tate
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-09-2016
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/25">George and Marjorie Kraemer, Oral History Metadata</a>
100 Area
1955
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
Award
Awards
B Plant
Battelle
Cold War
General Electric
Hanford
Kennedy
Kennewick
Mountain
Mountains
N Reactor
PUREX
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
Stores
T Plant
Tank Farm
Tank Farms
Theater
War
Westinghouse
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2e8c0afcc728d3fa1969f50a0d817c07.jpg
241b3581b4824ce1fee07a65245d921a
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F00a4b4d870d07017259caa950d80b7df.mp4
4dbea9a206df1a8666e32125a22ff250
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jack Collins
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Jack Collins: Now did you hear of people like—names like Alex Parks and some of those that helped sue the government? He was very—he was state legislature, I believe at one time.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Yeah—</p>
<p>Collins: From Grandview.</p>
<p>Bauman: I knew about the Wiehls—</p>
<p>Collins: Or Prosser?</p>
<p>Bauman: Dick Wiehl’s.</p>
<p>Collins: That had the ferry?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. I talked to Dick Wiehl.</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: That was one.</p>
<p>Collins: Ida Mae was in my class at school—</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh really? Oh, there you go.</p>
<p>Collins: We used to walk her down the river where her dad would pick her up and roll her across the river to where the original town of White Bluffs was.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, sure, yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: And he had—my grandparents lived in Old Town. They had a house in Old Town there before it moved up to the newer area. And spent a lot of time in Old Town.</p>
<p>Bauman: I think we’re just about ready.</p>
<p>Collins: Okay.</p>
<p>Bauman: So we’ll get started here in just a minute. And then—</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah. And another thing, are you aware of the Mormons coming out there, when the Mormon Church bought it?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: Okay. Did they tell you the story about the guy that brought his John Deere tractor and a four wheel trailer out from Utah? All the way out from Utah and brought all of his stuff—</p>
<p>Bauman: No.</p>
<p>Collins: And set it down on the black sandbar?</p>
<p>Bauman: No, no, I haven’t heard—</p>
<p>Collins: That was quite a story. Can you imagine the time it took him to drive out with a John Deere tractor?</p>
<p>Bauman: That would—no, I can’t imagine. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Collins: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Are we good to go?</p>
<p>Man: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman. All right, we’re good to get started. So, the first thing I’ll have you do is just say your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p>Collins: I’m Jack Collins, C-O-L-L-I-N-S.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, great. And my name is Robert Bauman and today is August 4<sup>th</sup> of 2015. And we are recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So first of all, welcome, and thanks for coming all this way out here-- [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Collins: I’m glad to—</p>
<p>Bauman: --for this interview.</p>
<p>Collins: I’m glad to be here.</p>
<p>Bauman: Great. I wonder if we could just start by maybe talking about your family and what brought them to White Bluffs, when they came, and that sort of—</p>
<p>Collins: We came to White Bluffs in the middle of the Depression. [LAUGHTER] And we didn’t have much. And my grandfather had moved there ahead of us, lived in Old Town. And he wrote my folks and told them that there was work there. Farm work and stuff. My dad was a good mechanic. And he went to White Bluffs, so we had work. We bought a little farm, ten acre farm, in White Bluffs. And he worked for farmers for years around there. And then when Sam Allard needed a person to help out up at the county pumping plant, he had met my father—I don’t know how they met, but maybe through Joe Grewell that run the Priest Rapids power plant. But they asked my dad to come up and they liked him very well, because his dad had had a blacksmith’s shop. And my dad knew how to do things, how to make stuff, how to forge, weld, how to do all this type stuff. And they had a lot of machine work that they had to do in the plant in those days. And it was all handwork. They had to hone thrust bearings. We used to go down as kids and help him hone thrust bearings, because it was fun! Sit out on the porch at the county pumping plant. We used to run the chain hoist lifting those big pumps out. There was two 500s and a 750 horse power pump. They were all raw sewer pumps that the water district had bought from Chicago or somewhere back there. They didn’t use them, and they were for sale and that’s how they got the— This is--I wasn’t there when this happened, this is the story that I always got. They did that, and then they had their own power plant—the Priest Rapids power plant. So my father got out there and worked and Sam taught him all the stuff about the plant. And finally my dad ended up as head operator there, running it. He worked there for a number of years. We lived in the house up above the plant. We owned a farm down below the plant, downriver from the plant. We had a 35 acre farm the government took away from us. And then they kept my dad on after the government took over to pump water for all the construction in the water districts. So we had—us and the Potter family, Jack Potter, and his son Jackie, and the three boys of us, Ted and myself and Ray, were the only kids living in the restricted area. We lived at Coyote. And Mom—they hired Mom to haul us down to school every day during school. That was after White Bluffs School had burned and we started going to Hanford. It was 16 miles. So we did that for a number of years. Then the government finally, when the government finished and they were ready to start operating the plants, they had us move out. We moved to Zillah, Washington. And then we saw a lot of stuff in there, what the government did to those people was—was not good. They took their property, and a few people like Alex Parks and some other influential farmers in there took them to court because the government took the property without buying the water rights or any of that stuff. And the people there owned the Priest Rapids power plant, the power lines going to the county pumping plant. And they owned all the canals, the pipelines, head boxes, risers, you can name everything for the water district. A lot of stuff. That was about, probably 20 miles of canals, concrete canal. The government just assumed that. And it took over three years in court to get the government to pay for that. And they just forced the people out with—my folks had very little money when they left there. We lost our farm, we had two farms, we had one down in White Bluffs, we had one up at Coyote, up by Allard’s pumping plant was. And then me and my two brothers, we were the ones that were going all over the area out there, selling food to the guys coming out there in the area. All they’d get is peanut butter sandwiches coming out of the mess halls downtown there in Hanford. And those guys, trying to eat peanut butter sandwiches and water in hundred and some degree weather—we’d end up out there with egg sandwiches, candy bars, pop, coffee-- [LAUGHTER] and sell it to these guys. So we got to be their friends, so they hauled us all over the area with their construction equipment. We rode construction trains, the engineers all knew us. They were all buying this stuff from us. So we made a lot of money. We put it all in war bonds. I cashed my war bonds to marry my wife. That was my money that I had when I married her. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: That’s great.</p>
<p>Collins: And it was a fun life out there. And we—in the summer, we just stripped down to just nothing but a bathing suit and our bare feet, and we was all over the country out there, just in the bare feet in the desert out there. We were pretty tough kids in those days. [LAUGHTER] Swim in the river, and swim in the canal. And there was a lot of parties went on down at Black Sand bar. Community parties, we had a lot of fun at those. Everybody would meet down there for big swimming parties and picnics and stuff. And then Table Mountain, now where the stuff is all stored—I don’t know whether you’ve heard about Table Mountain where they dug and they put the—</p>
<p>Bauman: Yup, yup.</p>
<p>Collins: Okay. We used to have our church picnics on top of Table Mountain. And used to go out, and we used to follow the sheep herds and stuff that went through there, and get all the bum lambs and stuff. We had quite a herd of sheep that we got from—we had no place to take them. We had to sell them when the government took over. We had cattle and sheep and everything. And they forced us to sell all of that stuff. We got not much out of it. But that’s the way the government operates. I got like twelve other stories, a lot of stories that I heard from some of the old timers, how they used to fish for sturgeon. They used to throw like a head of lettuce on a big hook out in the Columbia River.</p>
<p>Bauman: Really? Yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: Or a part of a chicken. And they’re bottom feeders, and they had quarter inch rope hooked to those. And they’d take the horses and pull them out, they were so big.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Collins: And that’s the—the old timers used to do that. Then we used to go to the—one of our trips at school was to go out to the Indian smokehouses, where they were smoking fish and stuff. The Priest Rapids Indians. That was quite a trip! And we were very familiar with them. And then my dad, when he worked up at the Priest Rapids power plant, when the put the new channel in to channel water into it, my dad worked on that, on running a jackhammer. That was before he went to work at Coyote. And we would go up there when they were going to have their blasts, and watch them blow that rock up. It was big time! They were drilling that basalt up there, and boy that was really a blast when they set all that rock off.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Collins: And we’d see the Priest Rapids Indian kids, they would be in their steam house getting all hot and everything, and they’d come out of the steam house and go jump in the river, naked! [LAUGHTER] Tough little kids! But I don’t know where they—they didn’t go to school with us. I think they were self-taught up there. But they were very healthy.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, I’m going to go ask you a couple questions, kinda go back a little bit. You mentioned that your grandfather lived at White Bluffs before you moved there?</p>
<p>Collins: He lived in Old White Bluffs.</p>
<p>Bauman: Lived in Old White Bluffs.</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what was his name?</p>
<p>Collins: Lyons.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, his last name was Lyons?</p>
<p>Collins: Lyons, yeah. [LAUGHTER] What was Grandpa’s name?</p>
<p>Woman: Alva.</p>
<p>Collins: Alva Edward Lyons.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: Him and my grandmother, and they’re the ones that taught us. And they had two children that lived with them, they were my mother’s parents.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And how old were you then when your family moved to White Bluffs?</p>
<p>Collins: I was in the first grade of school. So that was about, what? ’37, ’38, somewhere along there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: And we were the last family moved out of Hanford when they opened—when they started the plant.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. And do you know how long you were there?</p>
<p>Collins: I went to school—finished the seventh grade of school at Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And then you moved to—</p>
<p>Collins: We moved to Zillah.</p>
<p>Bauman: To Zillah. Okay. So what was the community of White Bluffs like?</p>
<p>Collins: It was a very friendly community. Everybody got along. I could say we went down to—we had all kinds of community things there. There was nothing else to do. We had a movie theater. The guy that run the ice plant there in town, he put on a show about twice a year, and that was a big thing, going to the movie, down to his little old movie house. Oh, they had church doings and stuff there. And a lot of potlucks. They had a grange there, too, I believe, and a lot of potlucks at the grange. That’s about all there was to do there. But everybody was friendly. It was different. They all looked out for one another. And—</p>
<p>Bauman: Now, you mentioned that you had a farm in White Bluffs and then one by the—</p>
<p>Collins: Our first farm was a ten-acre one. It was close to the town of White Bluffs.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what sort of crops did you have there?</p>
<p>Collins: Oh, we—it was old ground, leaded-out ground.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Collins: It wasn’t great ground. But as kids we used to, there, we would cut asparagus and stuff. Take it uptown in our wagon, and pull it uptown. We only lived about a half a mile from town. Sell asparagus to the people in town, little bundles of asparagus. Then go to the drug store and buy candy with our money. That was our candy money. I’ve always worked, even as a kid, I’ve always worked. We picked fruit and all kinds of stuff.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so you mentioned you went to school in White Bluffs, and then at some point the school burned?</p>
<p>Collins: Yes, I went to school at White Bluffs ‘til the school burned.</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hm, and then Hanford—</p>
<p>Collins: Can I bring up a thing about the principal there?</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, sure, absolutely.</p>
<p>Collins: She had—that’s the house that we got and they had—her husband run that horse ferry that pulled—I mean the cable ferry that pulled the—across the Columbia River. And she had a way of making the kids mind, she had a rubber hose and she’d take you down to the furnace room, and introduce them to a rubber hose.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Collins: My brother Ray got that one time. [LAUGHTER] And I was always good in school after I heard what happened there! [LAUGHTER] But we need more of that today. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So your family got to stay much longer than most other families after the Federal government came.</p>
<p>Collins: We got to stay, we were the last family moved.</p>
<p>Bauman: When we were talking before, you’d mentioned that you got notice around the time you had some apricots that were—</p>
<p>Collins: Apricot trees, yeah. We were going to plant 15 or 16 acres of apricots on our place. We lost all of our deposit and everything. The government could’ve cared less. They just—we had to turn them back. They arrived the day that our place was condemned.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow. And so do you remember how long you got to stay there, like—a lot of people had to move out in ’43, early 1943—</p>
<p>Collins: It was about—</p>
<p>Bauman: How long, much longer did you--</p>
<p>Collins: A year and a half or two years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay. So that’s quite a while longer you had to stay.</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah, all during construction, Dad pumped the water for the construction of the railroads and the roads and stuff. All the water trucks that came there. And he had pumps, pump it out of the canal, he was pumping in any water going on down. And they were using it for all the construction, the water he was pumping.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. So he was very valuable to the—</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah, they had—they wanted to move him to Richland and keep him on. My dad only went to fifth grade of school, but he was pretty knowledgeable. In those days, although they didn’t go very far. But they wanted to move on down, they’d give him a bunch of training and stuff. But he said, no, he says, I’m not going to take my boys to Richland. Because Richland was a pretty tough town in those days. And so we moved, he left the government job. He was making $150 a month for the water district. We got a house, our lights and water furnished. He worked seven 12s for them. And ‘round, all year long. In the wintertime, when they shut the plant down, they were working in the plant overhauling stuff. And then when the government took over, I think he went up to $1,200 a month. And he worked a 40 hour week.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Collins: I can bring up another thing about—They used to hone all the thrust bearings. There were big thrust bearings that these big pumps sat on. They were three stories high, and they were very heavy. They weighed tons. So they brought an engineer out there that was going to tell my dad how to do that. So he said they could do a better job machining them than he could do it by hand. He told them, no, they couldn’t. So this engineer, he was going to prove it. So he took one of them and did it. And they took, I think it was a 750 horse pump out of it, and they set it down on it, and he threw the switch. And you have to rock those switches in to bring those motors up to speed there. So big and so heavy that you can’t bring them up just once. This guy threw the switch on it, blew the windings out of this pump and stuff, and it cost the government a load of money to tear that pump apart and get it rewound. I don’t know that he lost his job or not, but they always believed my dad after that, because he knew how to start them. He never blew one up in years that he ran the plant. They’d never had that happen before. And so a lot of things happened there. They brought guys out that my dad had to teach how to run the plant. They had young college guys. And it was interesting. We used to go down once in a while. We’d sit in for Dad. They brought the power in that was 66,000 volts from up there, and they had to transform down to 2,200 for the pumps. And you had to check those transformers every day for temperature. And then you had to check all the bearings on the pumps and all that. You had to work. And then call the readings in on the gauges there to tell them how much power you were drawing and everything, so they’d know how much power to send from Priest Rapids down to the plant. Because that’s the only thing that they furnished power for. So you was always busy there. You had to know what you were doing.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: So Dad taught us kids all how to do it. We didn’t have nothing else to do. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned when people had to leave in 1943 that a lot of people went to court eventually. Do you have any idea how much money your parents got for your property?</p>
<p>Collins: It was very little. We had enough to buy an old leaded-out ten-acre place out in Zillah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And that was enough?</p>
<p>Collins: But it wasn’t good. And it took them years, a lot of those people that they went out of there with, the older people, the widows and widwoers and stuff. They ended up in institutions. They had no family, they had no one. And the government just forced them out. They told them they’d come in with trucks and haul their stuff out if they didn’t leave. They’d haul them out of the area.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Collins: That’s the way they operated with us. We were a very fortunate family, the way we got out. And my father had a truck and he bought a lot of the stuff from those people and we took it out to the auction sales and stuff and sold it. And we’d load up watermelons. And take them to the end of the barracks, we’d buy overripe watermelons. Because they were good, they were good watermelons. And take them in and sell them to the barracks there. And they were very—those people down there were very happy to get nice, ripe watermelons. Because everyone else was selling them green ones, and we were selling them ripe ones.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, you were very enterprising. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Collins: Hey, we did anything to make money. We had to.</p>
<p>Bauman: Sure.</p>
<p>Collins: We didn’t have any. We picked lots of fruit, worked in warehouses, did all of that stuff. Oh yeah, and there was another thing, too, that came up. There was an old recluse lived down under the railroad station, under their deck out front. And he had been, and I think you have something about him—he had been a pharmacist, was the story. And he had given the wrong prescription and killed a lady. And he left pharmacy and just ended up a recluse there—I don’t—I’d seen him, I’d seen him in the stores and stuff, seen him wandering around town. But that’s all I know about him.</p>
<p>Bauman: So when we were talking earlier, you also mentioned that at some point you ended up working at Hanford. Is that right?</p>
<p>Collins: I worked for the telephone company.</p>
<p>Bauman: For the telephone company.</p>
<p>Collins: And Hanford was the area that I had.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right.</p>
<p>Collins: And I had a high security clearance to go out in the Hanford area and build a number of the offices out there. I built West Richland—or I didn’t build it, I was in charge of it—when that young fellow got killed, that was one of my projects. When he swung the crane into the powerline and killed him. That was one of my projects. Downtown Richland, I did a lot of work on that one. And Kennewick, I did a lot of work there on all the Kennewick offices.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what time period was this, then, that you were working for the phone company?</p>
<p>Collins: I was working, doing that—that was, oh, I was about 40-something years old, so it would have had to have been ’70, in there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Collins: When they were building the offices out in the Hanford area. We didn’t have—our company did not have the Hanford area for the telephone offices—went out of, oh, down on the Columbia River had that. And we did their engineering and construction for them. They farmed it out to General Telephone at that time. That’s why it was out there building them. I drilled a lot of grounding wells out there, which—north of where Colonel Rockwell took over to watch what was happening underground. And they locked them up, but we never got to touch them again after we drilled them. They took the wells over. We could use them for grounding for offices, but we had to drill pretty deep because there’s no mineral in this ground here. It’s very poor grounding in this area. So.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was it—did it feel strange at all, when you were doing that to be back out in that area working? Where you had lived for a while?</p>
<p>Collins: I’d been out there, yes. I’m a pioneer resident. So we got to go on the trips when they took them out there. You used to come out to the White Bluffs-Hanford picnic here all the time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, right.</p>
<p>Collins: And we went out to our old farm one time. We weren’t supposed to be there, but we did. [LAUGHTER] And they had burned everything down. Mysteriously, while we—before we left, we had a big barn full of stuff, stored full of stuff—that mysteriously burned. And no one else—no one out there but the people, the government people.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: And it was other stuff happened out there. The house that we lived in out there got burned. When we were there, we saw the foundation of it and a bunch of ashes. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So, talking about White Bluffs community, who were some of the families that you knew well growing up, or some of your friends when you were—</p>
<p>Collins: We knew Alex Parks. Oh, jiminy. I just can’t remember all the names now. It’s—</p>
<p>Bauman: That’s okay.</p>
<p>Collins: But he was a very close friend of my folks’, very influential when they had the lawsuit. Russ Webert.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Collins: Heck, can’t remember anymore.</p>
<p>Bauman: That’s all right.</p>
<p>Collins: Somewhere, I’ve got all the school pictures and stuff, too. I’m trying to get them back, of all the years I was in school down there. If you’d want those for your museum, I’m trying to get them back now.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: I may have to go to court to get them, I don’t know at this point.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow. The other thing, when we were talking earlier that you had a picture of the school bus—</p>
<p>Collins: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: That you, that you rode.</p>
<p>Collins: That was the school bus that we rode from there to the Hanford School.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right, after the White Bluffs School burned down.</p>
<p>Collins: And my uncle drove it, and we had a lot of—[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Looked like a pretty small school bus. How many kids rode in that, do you remember?</p>
<p>Collins: [SIGH] There was probably five or six of us on it. It would hold a few more than that, but there just wasn’t any more kids up there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long did you go to school in Hanford, then?</p>
<p>Collins: I went to school in Hanford for two years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Two years, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: We were on the double shifting when we went to Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: You know what—we were on the morning shift, we went in the morning, and then they had a night shift.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: We were on the morning shift. We didn’t get to learn too much at Hanford. It was tough when went to another school all day. I had a lot of catching up to do!</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did that take to ride out there?</p>
<p>Collins: Well, it was about 16 miles.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: To our place, and then the bus went on farther, so--probably another eight miles.</p>
<p>Bauman: Pretty good ride.</p>
<p>Collins: Oh, yeah. Then after the government took over, then my mother would haul us. The government hired her to haul us. Because it was just us three kids and Jackie Potter. Four of us. And she would haul us in that old ’36 Ford. Haul us to school every day, and two round trips a day, every day.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Collins: So it was cheaper than them owning a bus and stuff. So they didn’t get a lot out of it, but it was better for us.</p>
<p>Bauman: So by the time you and your family left, pretty much everyone else was gone, all the other residents of White Bluffs. Had the government already torn down a lot of the buildings at the other farms and places by the time you left?</p>
<p>Collins: Oh, yeah, they just went in and wiped the place out. They didn’t give a darn about anything that was in there. And then after we moved out and I got older, my brother and I went in and bought a lot of that stuff. We bought all the poles and the powerline between the Coyote pumping plant and Priest Rapids. We bought all those there around Sunnyside. And then the racetrack, we got most of those poles for the lighting and everything there—the poles around the racetrack. And then we bought a lot of those Quonset huts in there. Tore down a lot of those Quonsets. I saw pictures of them on some of your stuff, you know, the fish hatchery and stuff?</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Collins: We tore that old fish hatchery down, my brother and I did.</p>
<p>Bauman: Really?</p>
<p>Collins: And hauled that all out of there and sold them to farmers in the valley for shelters for their pigs and cattle and stuff. And we bought a lot of stuff in Hanford there, him and I did. I worked for him, and we hauled a lot of stuff out of Hanford when they were tearing it down.</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Collins: And that was kinda interesting. One time we were in tearing the fish hatchery down, and he picked up a bucket and said it was radioactive. And we mentioned it to the guard there, and I didn’t see him all day. They took him and he was gone. And boy, he said they run him through any test you can imagine. Because we didn’t work for the government, we were bidding on stuff and buying stuff in there. But that was quite an interesting experience, too. We got to see all those fish hatcheries, those big fish in those tanks that they were testing radioactivity on. And then I had a lot of friends that worked out there, like Jack Potter. I don’t know whether you ever—his dad was the mayor of Hanford at one time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: And he’s told me stories about running dozers in those pits out there. And how dangerous it was, him and some other people were telling me about it. How they saw people get sickened out there. They’re all gone now. They were a lot older than I was. But friends of my family.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was going to ask you, the pumping station that your dad operated, how big of an area did that serve?</p>
<p>Collins: That served everything from Coyote down to Hanford and all the Hanford area.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: White Bluffs, Hanford, about—I don’t know—16 or 20 miles of canal that it served. It was a big area.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, it is.</p>
<p>Collins: All those farms that it pumped. And a few farms pumped out of the river. They had pumps on the river. Now my grandfather run a farm for an outfit there. And they had a pump. It was just right below the black sandbar—or above the black sandbar, I mean, on the river. And my grandfather run that for a few years. And they pumped out of the river for that. A few people did. But most of them were from the Coyote pumping plant for water.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, that’s a lot of farms that it served.</p>
<p>Collins: Hundreds of acres.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: Beautiful farms. Everything there was two weeks ahead of everywhere else in the country. So the fruit all got on the fresh fruit market. And it was—they got really a high premium price out of it. And they had their own packing houses there. There’s a railroad that come in, they trucked stuff out of there. And a lot of stuff went on there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: But we used to go down—I used to lid and make boxes and stuff in those warehouses for Alex Parks. We worked for him all summer long. Just when we were little kids! But all the kids there worked. Every kid that lived there worked. They aren’t like today. [LAUGHTER] We were busy! [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Right, yeah. So you were, what, about fifth grade when people started leaving?</p>
<p>Collins: I started first grade at White Bluffs—</p>
<p>Bauman: When you first came, yeah, but--</p>
<p>Collins: And I went to the fifth grade there, no, sixth and seventh at Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: But when people started having to leave because the Federal government was coming in, do you remember your, or your family’s reaction to that? As people were leaving, and what you thought about that?</p>
<p>Collins: It was complete shock to everybody when that happened. A car drove up to your house with guys in it, and they told you your property was condemned, you’d have to leave within two weeks, I think it was. You know, how shocked would you be if they’d do something like that to you?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Collins: Or, if you didn’t leave, they’d bring in military people with trucks, and they’d haul you out of the area. And I was just a young kid then, but I can remember that, you know.</p>
<p>Bauman: Sure.</p>
<p>Collins: And it wasn’t good.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. Yeah, do you remember seeing the trucks come into the area?</p>
<p>Collins: Never saw that, no.</p>
<p>Bauman: No?</p>
<p>Collins: Most of them got out. It’s all they could do.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what would you like people to know about White Bluffs—because it’s not there anymore and hasn’t been for a long time—what should people--</p>
<p>Collins: It was a beautiful area. It was a great place for kids to grow up. Because we learned how to work. Practically everyone that came out of there was successful. My brother Ted was a car dealer, now he’s a farmer. Ray is—I gave you the information on him—is very successful. He was an officer in the military and flew training planes for the, where they shot at him with those big howitzers and stuff. Yeah, it was his job flying those planes off from the ground. He’s got bad hearing now from those howitzers going off behind him. Wrecked his hearing. Anyway, he went and got a lot of training from the military in radio. And then he got into it, and now he’s—from the letter I gave you there—he’s very influential in the electronics industry. He’s getting a very large award, he’ll be in the history books with Edison and all those people for his contribution to the electrical—you know, the radio industry. He’s invented a lot of radio stuff. I was in construction. I was construction superintendent, worked my way up to an engineer in construction. We’re all non-college-graduated. We all learned it on our own. And in the service, I had a lot of electronics school in the service, too. I went through all that in the Airforce. And got out and started studying. And I did go to college some after I was older and working. But I built a lot of projects. I built projects here, which I was telling you about. I was in charge of all of them. My area at that time was eastern Washington, Idaho, and Montana for the telephone company, over all their construction projects and building construction. So we all—</p>
<p>Bauman: Are there any other memories about White Bluffs, or stories that you remember well that we haven’t talked about yet or you haven’t shared yet?</p>
<p>Collins: [LAUGHTER] There’s so many—</p>
<p>Bauman: That you can—</p>
<p>Collins: --things that I can just go on. It was just a very great community, as far as we were concerned. They moved a bunch of—the Mormons came in, they shipped a lot of them up here. They were on—the Mormon Church was supporting them in Utah, was my understanding. So they bought these farms for them. Boy, they were ornery kids. [LAUGHTER] We used to fight with them all the time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, you know, you mentioned—I was going to ask you—you mentioned, your grandfather, the place he bought was one that had been for World War I initially, is that right?</p>
<p>Collins: That was the one my father bought.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, the one your father—okay.</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah, the ten acres. There’s a lot of those war veterans—I don’t know what happened to it. There’s a lot of that property available. And you have the listing of what they were talking about, on how you could buy cheap property? And my folks got in there and they was able to buy a little ten acre farm.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Collins: I don’t know how much Dad paid for it, but it wasn’t a lot at the time. And they house hadn’t been lived in for a long time. And we fixed that up to live in. He had a barn on the place. And we lived there and worked and folks worked on the house. It was a small house. But we were close to the school, we walked to school, there was no school buses then.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right.</p>
<p>Collins: So we all walked to school. And then he got the chance to go up to Coyote pumping plant. And that’s the first time we was able to have—my folks went to town and they bought an electric stove and a refrigerator. And that was a big deal! We’d never had that before. We were not a wealthy family. We were lucky to have an icebox. And a wood stove, and all of this stuff. And we didn’t even have running water in the house when we bought it. We had a pump on a well out the back door. And that was even big time to us, them days. It was better than what we had before. And then when we got up to Coyote, up there, then we had all the conveniences. We had electricity, and we had—</p>
<p>Bauman: Running water?</p>
<p>Collins: --hot water in the house—</p>
<p>Bauman: Did you have a telephone?</p>
<p>Collins: Huh?</p>
<p>Bauman: Was there a telephone?</p>
<p>Collins: Telephone.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Collins: Crank telephone. And everybody listened in. He’d crank it and everybody else’s phone would ring, and you knew what was going on in the whole neighborhood. Because everybody was on the phone, the whole neighborhood. Because they could hear you. And if you wanted to go long distance, the drug store downtown, they had some equipment down there where they could—if you wanted to make a long distance call, you had to ring the operator down there and have her connect you with where you were going at that time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: If you wanted to call out of the area. And it was one of these old ones where they had it on fence posts or whatever they could anchor the wire to, you know. [LAUGHTER] It was pretty crude, boxes with the telephone equipment in it. Wooden boxes. [LAUGHTER] It wasn’t—but people did it. They survived. And we had an icehouse there in town—I can’t remember the name of the people. They made ice for the railroad. And you’d get ice there for your iceboxes. They were friends of my folks, but I can’t remember their name. And they had a son that lived down here. I knew him quite well, but I can’t remember him now.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, the other thing I meant to ask you was, where did you move from? Where did your family come from before they came to White Bluffs?</p>
<p>Collins: Well, I was born in Zillah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Collins: And then we—it was during the Depression—I was born in 1930, and those were tough times. I don’t remember much about it, but I remember my folks telling me about it. We moved around in the valley doing different work where my dad could find work. He would get maybe a dollar and a half a day. That was wages then. If you was lucky! And then when he found out we could get work in Hanford—or in White Bluffs, we moved there. Because you could work for farmers and stuff, and you could get all of your stuff, you know, all your fruit. We canned all of our own fruit. We canned everything. Asparagus. We had—Mom canned everything. We lived on that. [LAUGHTER] And we probably lived better than a lot of other people. Because we were resourceful. We had a big garden. We raised a lot of stuff. We even raised peanuts here one year!</p>
<p>Bauman: Really?</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah!</p>
<p>Bauman: Huh.</p>
<p>Collins: The ground was that good. It was sandy and hot. And raised hay and started getting cattle—cows. Had milk cows, and we had all of that stuff. We had all of our meat. During rationing times, we butchered all of our own meat. We didn’t have to worry about rationing, because we had it. [LAUGHTER] So we lived pretty good. We didn’t have any money. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. But you had the farm and resources.</p>
<p>Collins: We had the farm, and we had food. And that was a big thing during Depression, if you had that—</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you very much for coming today, all the way out here. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Collins: Well, I hope I’ve done you some good, I don’t know—</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, this is really interesting stuff. I haven’t been able to interview very many people who lived out at White Bluffs, so—</p>
<p>Collins: Oh, well, I’m 84 years old, and I was just a little kid! [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Collins: But I do remember a lot of that stuff. And I talked to both of my brothers. And Ray wanted me to show you that, to show how some of the people came out of there successfully, you know?</p>
<p>Bauman: Sure, right, right.</p>
<p>Collins: And I’m sure there’s a lot of others. I’m sure we weren’t alone.</p>
<p>Bauman: Now where were you age-wise among the brothers?</p>
<p>Collins: I’m the middle one.</p>
<p>Bauman: You’re the middle one. Okay.</p>
<p>Collins: I’m the middle one, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Collins: Ted is older and Ray is younger.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. All right. And so after you moved to Zillah, what did you do from there?</p>
<p>Collins: From Zillah?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, after you left White Bluffs and you—</p>
<p>Collins: Went back to Zillah?</p>
<p>Bauman: You went back to Zillah and—</p>
<p>Collins: We went to school there, finished school there. And then I worked some for the telephone company. I worked around different jobs, farm jobs and stuff like that. And then I married my wife. And we couldn’t—I worked for Western Electric then, putting in the new telephones off of Yakima. And they laid all of us off, they laid I think 1,200 or 1,500 people off in one shot. So I had an electronics background and everything, but they only kept very, very selected few. I wasn’t one of them. And I didn’t have a job and I—doing some other stuff around there. And I wasn’t making any money, so I moved to the coast. I went to work at Boeing. [LAUGHTER] And I didn’t like Boeing. It was known as the Lazy B, and that’s what it was at that time. The people just—they didn’t know how to work. They drove me crazy. I didn’t have enough work to do, I couldn’t find enough work to do. We had one guy in our area that was supposed to be the biggest producer. He’d come in and we had to stamp our work. I was in quality control there and we had to stamp our work when we inspected things. I inspected on Airforce One, on the wings of that. And this guy, he would come in and check in, and the mail girl was his girlfriend. And they’d check in, he’d give his stamp to one of the mechanics, and the two of them would leave for the day. Come and check out at night. They were high producers because their stuff was just getting shoved through. And he was a buddy of our supervisor, so me and the supervisor didn’t get along. And then when he asked me to come and mow his lawn on the weekend, and I—I explained to him I didn’t do things like that. I had a family, I had four children at the time. And I wasn’t about to mow somebody’s lawn on the weekend and take care of them rather than take care of my family. I don’t care if he was my supervisor. I didn’t like him. So that was my, about the end of my job at Boeing. Then I went into construction work.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right.</p>
<p>Collins: Where I did well.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, again, I want to thank you very much for coming today and sharing stories about White Bluffs and your father’s work at the pumping plant and all that. It’s really interesting.</p>
<p>Collins: We were supposed to someday—I was supposed to get that land back. But I don’t think that will ever happen.</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm, mm-hm.</p>
<p>Collins: I would love to have our property on the Columbia River. God, it was a beautiful piece of property.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, yeah, I bet.</p>
<p>Collins: All that, Coyote Rapids there. And we were going to buy Delia Allard’s place, down the river—Sam Allard’s first wife. He was married twice. I don’t know what the reasoning was. She lived down there with her son-in-law, I think it was her son-in-law. And I don’t know the whole deal there. And we were buying their farm, too, which they had a beautiful home that they built down there. Rock home, and we wanted that. But Dad was negotiating for that when the government took our land away from us, so that was gone. So—[LAUGHTER] Anyway.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, thank you very much, I really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Collins: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: This has been really interesting and very helpful. Thank you.</p>
<p>Collins: Well, I hope I don’t get myself in any trouble with some of this stuff I talked about.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, not too much.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
Original Format
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mp4
Duration
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00:45:51
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
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1937-1943
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Dick Wiehl
Ida Mae
Alex Parks
Ray Collins
Alex Parks
Jack Potter
Delia Allard
Sam Allard
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jack Collins
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Jack Collins conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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08-04-2015
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-13-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Boeing
General Telephone
Hanford
Kennewick
Mountain
Park
Parks
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Running
School
Sun
swimming
War
Western Electric
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe432dc936185b4193f34dada1571fc04.mp4
d88e1cd2b5fbc7af387dea2d3370d34b
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F597191347c2206788f1ea5b0744d2ead.JPG
3e71992845a88984bc7c85915e72c7db
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lorraine Ferqueron
Location
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Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: Victor, are we ready?</p>
<p>Victor Vargas: We’re ready.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Ruth Lorraine Fer—</p>
<p>Lorraine Ferqueron: Ferqueron.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ferqueron. Thank you, Lorraine. On October 18<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducting on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Lorraine about her experiences growing up in the Richland area and the forced evacuation in 1943. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: My name is Ruth Lorraine Ferqueron. It’s R-U-T-H L-O-R-R-A-I-N-E F-E-R-Q-U-E-R-O-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, let’s start at the beginning. When and where were you born?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Pasco, Washington at Lady of Lourdes, May 7<sup>th</sup>, 1931. Those days, they kept the mother and the baby for ten days. So I came to Richland when I was ten days old.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where in Richland did your family live?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well we had—during the time, we had three different farms. One was out by basically where Battelle is now. I can’t really tell you exactly because I don’t have any points to base it from except the river.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, but somewhere where the Battelle campus is now, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Mm-hmm. Actually, that area was called Fruitdale when I was little.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hmm. I’ve seen that on some—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: You’ve seen the Fruitdale?</p>
<p>Franklin: --On some maps.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Some early maps—like ‘30s and ’40s maps. So you said your family had three farms—three acres?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Three areas that they farmed.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Three areas of farms.</p>
<p>Franklin: Three areas of farms. So one’s in Fruitdale, or PNNL campus.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, but I was very young when that was going on. And then we moved in to—closer to Richland and had a farm up below where Tagaris is now.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And then the last one was out on—is it Wellsian Way that goes—not Wellsian, the road that goes to West Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Van Giesen?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Below the Tri-City Court Club was—we had 118 acres there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that Van Giesen?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Huh?</p>
<p>Franklin: That goes to—is it Van Giesen that goes to—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, Van Giesen.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right below the Tri-City Court Club.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We had that until 1943, when we were forced out.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you describe your memory of that event?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That day? Yeah. I remember it. I was 12. These two men came to the door and told my father that they had declared eminent domain and they were taking the land. We had I think it was about three weeks to get out. There was seven of us children.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We had a dairy farm there—well, my parents did, of course. I think we had 27 cows that Dad had to sell for five dollars apiece.</p>
<p>Franklin: And I imagine that was pennies on the dollar.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, yes. And then we were given—Dad was given—everyone was given, I think, $5,000 for their property, no matter what size or anything. That was actually owed to the bank, so we never—my father and mother didn’t have any money. And we moved to Finley.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then what did your parents—what did your family do in Finley?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, Dad did a lot of trucking and we had a small farm there.</p>
<p>Franklin: But more like a truck farm?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, well, we had peppermint.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And asparagus. We had, I think, three cows that Dad kept. Two or three cows. My brother could tell you that more than I could. And we raised asparagus.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did that go on, did your parents do that?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Until I was 15. We moved to the Richland Wye.</p>
<p>Franklin: And why did your parents moved to the Richland Wye?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Dad went into working in construction. We left the farm and farming. We took one cow and moved to the Richland Wye—what’s now the Richland Wye.</p>
<p>Franklin: Your favorite cow?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, probably. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Did he work for Hanford, or in—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: The only one in our family that worked for Hanford that I’m aware of is my grandfather. My grandfather had a farm here. His name was Augustus Long. He was the ditch back rider. A ditch back rider is someone who rides the irrigation ditches and checks it out and makes sure everything’s going fine. Started doing that on horseback. And then, I guess, the irrigation district or somebody bought him this truck to ride it in. After they took him off—took his land, he went to court, actually, and they paid him off.</p>
<p>Franklin: Hmm.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Because they had to, to keep—it was all secret, you know. Everything at Hanford—nobody knew what was going on, even the people that worked there. He went to work for them for a short time, just to show them where everything was. He knew all the county—all the boundaries, and all the lines and where everything was. So he worked for them for a while—short time. Then he moved to Grandview.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did he receive more money in the settlement because he took them to court?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: No?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: He just had to go through the extra step.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, he got extra because he worked for them for that short time. And then because he got as far as the court in Spokane, and they paid him off. In other words, they bribed him out of it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, so, but did he receive more money in the end for going to court?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, he probably did. I have no idea how much, but he probably did, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And how long—do you know approximately how long he worked for the government—for Hanford?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, it was a matter of two or three months, probably.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so not too significant.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, I don’t really remember, but it wasn’t long.</p>
<p>Franklin: But he was part of that transition, though, right? Kind of showing them the lay of the land.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, he said the hardest thing he ever had to do was cut off the water to all those farms, and they just—</p>
<p>Franklin: Watch them die.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Watch them die. And bulldozed under—they were actually bulldozed.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, many of them were.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That’s why—I hear people today say, well, it was a sand pile when we got here. Well, of course it was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. That helps erase that evidence of human habitation.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And make sure people don’t want to come back.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s really—so your father—or your grandfather was the only person that worked for—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s true, because—it was a very traumatic thing, because one day I had my complete family here. And three weeks later, they were scattered all over the state.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And I lost—I could walk from our house to grandpa’s house. And then they went up to Grandview, I mean, and we just didn’t get to see them as often.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right, because of the—not as much—farther distance, not as good of roads.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, eventually, he moved back to Benton City and had a farm up there. But in those days, going from where we lived in Finley to Benton City was quite a trip.</p>
<p>Franklin: I bet. I bet that would have been an all-day affair.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. My mother told me when they were children to go to Kennewick to shop, it was all day, because they had a horse and a wagon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: They went to Kennewick and back and it was an all-day trip.</p>
<p>Franklin: So when do your parents and grandparents—when did your family come to the Richland area?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. My great-grandparents came here just about the turn of the century. But as far as I can figure, about 1900. Maybe a little earlier. And my great-grandfather farmed the area somewhere between where WinCo is now and the Yakima River.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And then did they—when they came, were there already—was there already irrigation piping here? Was there an irrigation district?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t remember—I mean, I don’t really know. I never was told. My grandparents and my mother and her siblings came—let’s see, she was born in 1905 in Nebraska, and she was three when they came here.</p>
<p>Franklin: So in 1908.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: 1908, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. I know there were irrigation lines—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And there was irrigation then.</p>
<p>Franklin: --at that time.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: 1900 is a little—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: A little early.</p>
<p>Franklin: A little early. Did your—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, sorry.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: They had the Yakima River. So they had a water supply and they--</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I know you’ve probably heard about the Rosencrans and the water wheel they had here on the river?</p>
<p>Franklin: No, no, tell me about that.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, I don’t really know much about it, but there are pictures of it available somewhere.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. I’ll have to look at—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: The Rosencrans family had that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Great. Thank you.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And that was—that was probably the start of the irrigation right there. Around that time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. From the research I’ve done, it shows that kind of later in 1906, 1908, the White Bluffs Irrigation Company and the Hanford Irrigation Company, which were formed by kind of collected capital on the west side of the state laid down the irrigation piping, bought the land—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Miles and miles of it, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And then sold the land to people, and then people would have to pay monthly irrigation bills.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Whether they used the water or not. It was kind of a scheme to make a bunch of money.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it’s still that way.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, it is. But I’ve always been kind of interested about the pre—because it sounds like there were smaller attempts by families at creating some irrigation tunnels and ditches.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t know if there’s anybody still living that would know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it’s—the nature of the history is—physically the evidence has been wiped off the map.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was wiped out with the bulldozers and everything—that was all—</p>
<p>Franklin: So your great-grandparents that came, that would have been your father’s side?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: My mother’s.</p>
<p>Franklin: Your mother, oh, so then your mother was born in Nebraska?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: My father, on my Sloppy side of the family, I don’t really know when they came. But my father was born in Prosser—well, AmaRosa district outside of Prosser—in 1905.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: He was the third baby born in Benton County.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, you know, years ago—before 1905, there was no Benton County. It was Yakima County.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yup.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Then they divided it, and Dad was born after it was made a county.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t know exactly where they came from. They did live here in Richland for a number of years because my mother and father went to school from first grade to, I believe, fifth. And then his family moved away. And then he came back in his 20s and went to work for John Weidle and Thad Grosscup. There’s streets named after them in West Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: John Weidle and who?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Thad Grosscup.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, Grosscup.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Yeah, I knew both of those men.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: He was working in wheat fields all over here and Idaho and everything. And anyway, my parents married here in 1930.</p>
<p>Franklin: In Richland?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, actually, married in Kennewick because the old Methodist church in Kennewick on Kennewick Avenue.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right. And then how did your parents meet?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: In school.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, in school. Well, right, first through fifth. But how did they reconnect later—I mean, were they both in Richland at the same time, or—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, he came back to work for Thad--</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: --in what is now West Richland. And mom worked for John Dam. You know, John Dam Plaza?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yup.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Named after him. Well, she worked for John for—right out of high school. She graduated in the old high school here in 1922, and went to work for John Dam.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what did she do?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And Dad was in and out of the—she was a clerk.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, in—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: In his store, mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, at his store.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, John Dam had a—well, it was like a department store. He sold everything. He was also our unofficial banker.</p>
<p>Franklin: As many storekeepers often were in those days.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, he gave credits through the winter to the farmers and then they would pay it off in the fall with the crops.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah, no, that’s a—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: An old—</p>
<p>Franklin: A long-standing tradition in agriculture.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. A lost tradition now.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes. Although, sadly, sometimes, abused and—like the sharecropping system of the South. But usually not quite so much here, luckily. So graduated from Richland. Okay, wow. So you said you grew up—you lived in three different farms here.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. And went to school here in Richland at what is now Lewis and Clark.</p>
<p>Franklin: Went to school at Lewis and Clark. Okay. And how come your parents moved so much in the 12 years between the three different farms? Do you know why they--?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: You know, I really don’t remember. Some of the farms—two of the farms were rented. So that might have been why. He found a better place. There was a time when we moved away from Richland. We lived in Corfu, which does not exist now.</p>
<p>Franklin: In where, sorry?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Corfu. It’s right across the mountain from White Bluffs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Could you—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right out of Othello.</p>
<p>Franklin: Could you spell that for me?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Corfu, C-O-R-F-U.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. I would not have spelled it that way. Thank you.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And as far as we know, my sister was the only person ever born there. My mother was a postmaster there. All the outlying farmers would come in and get their mail there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm. Do you know if there was a store there, or was it just a—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yes, there was a store, but it was gone. It was abandoned. Actually, Corfu was founded, I think, for the railroad workers.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: To have a place to stay. And we lived in—it was a hotel, and we lived on the second floor, and, well, part of the time on the first floor. And my mother was postmaster.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. Was it a functioning hotel at that point?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No. No, we were the only residents in there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Only residents there. Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We had lots of room.</p>
<p>Franklin: So it was really just the postal designation to deliver mail at that point. And was that—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We had a lot of sheep herders go through.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, I would imagine. Interesting.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t know if you know about the sheep herds that went through. They were—oh, about four of five thousand sheep per herd, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and it was often—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: They would go up, and go across Grand Coulee Dam before it was closed to them.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was often—I don’t know if it was this far north, but often sheep herders were Basque men? People from the Basque region? Do you know of—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I just remembered, when my father was in his early teens, he was a sheep herder for a summer or two.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s really—in the same area?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is Corfu—was that where part of the Hanford reservation extends over?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: You know, I don’t know if it goes that far or not. I doubt it, but I don’t know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I know people are surprised when I tell them that there’s ice caves up there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, the White Bluffs range there. Yeah. We used to go into those ice caves, and the people in Corfu and another little town up there used to keep their meat and stuff in there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Refrigeration, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that was a very prized thing before electric refrigeration.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it’s been there since the Ice Age.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: What was the other little town?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: You know, I just don’t remember now.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s okay. So your parents—your mother worked for John Dam for a time, your father was kind of a wheat farmer—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: Then they settled down and lived in these three different farms. Now, the last one you lived in in Richland, that was one that your parents had bought?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: They were buying it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah--or they were buying it, they had a mortgage on it.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, they did pay quite a bit on it when we lost it. But we lost—they just lost all of that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was a cattle ranch?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It was a dairy farm, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Dairy farm, sorry.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. As far as I remember, we had about 27 cows. We had a huge pasture. Dad rented out pasture land to horses, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm. Was that irrigated pasture, or--?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, just for—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It had a pond, but—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, it had a pond, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I only remember that, because I was sliding around on it one time on the ice and went through the ice and cut my ankle open.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That’s why I remember it.</p>
<p>Franklin: So tell me about growing up in kind of this small agricultural town—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it’s—</p>
<p>Franklin: And your childhood and school and friends.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, everybody knew you, and I was related to half the town, because I had--two uncles had places here, and at least one aunt and her husband. Well, I always say, it was so small in town that if I did anything wrong, my father knew about it in about 30 seconds, because—[LAUGHTER]—the whole town would call him and tell him, you know? But it was just a really easy-going good time.</p>
<p>Franklin: How did the Depression affect your family? Did it affect the town?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, about like anybody else, except we had meat, because we had cows, we had pigs, we had chickens. Mom would buy a bunch of little chicks every year. We grew—my mother canned everything. We had lots of food. Clothes and everything, that was a little bit of a problem because of the money. But we did pretty good because—and I don’t remember ever being hungry. Well, I had the kind of parents that if there was food, we got it first anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. So you might not have known at the time—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t remember it being an unhappy time at all.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But now I realize how much I learned from my mother of how to get by cheaply. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah! Did you ever go to Hanford or White Bluffs at all? Did you know anybody at Hanford?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. We went through there. I did know them, but now—except for one teacher and I can’t remember his name—and he also taught at Kennewick later. I had him for a teacher there. That was 65 years ago that I graduated. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Of course, of course. A lot of focus is on—especially recently with the creation of the National Park and some of these stories of White Bluffs and Hanford are becoming more well-known, but Richland is also a community that was—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --displaced by the—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We were very affected by it. I mean, a very emotional thing. There was one man that when they told him he had to get out, he died later that day of a heart attack. Now, whether or not he had a heart attack coming on, who knows? But he did die of a heart attack. Well, that hit us all pretty hard. And then having to say goodbye to my grandparents, and my cousins, and aunts and uncles—</p>
<p>Franklin: Have you ever been to any of the—I know they had the Hanford-White Bluffs reunions—were Richland people ever included in those?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t know about—we never were included as far as I know with Hanford and White Bluffs, but we had our own. It was called the Old Timers’ Picnic.</p>
<p>Franklin: Old Timers’ Picnic, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And you could not come to that unless you were here prior to 1943. I remember one occasion there, I was living in the south at the time, in South Carolina—came out for vacation. I was 36 years old, and I’m sitting at this table, and Mrs. John Dam, who had not seen me since I was a child, came up to me and said, you must be Edith Long’s little girl. And she patted me on the head like I was a little child. I’ll never forget it. I could not believe she remembered me all that time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That was shortly before she died.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s something.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: She was in her 90s then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. Yeah, memories are funny that way, huh?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: I mean, some things we remember crystal clear, and others kind of seem to get fuzzy.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Just the other day, someone asked me, well, who was John Dam? And its kind of surprised me, because I just assumed everybody knew who he was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And he was county commissioner, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. How much of—do you live in Richland now?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I live at the Richland Wye, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. How did you feel coming back to the Richland Wye and seeing this different town that had been—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --created, and this kind of suburban landscape that had been placed over what had once been farmland. How did that make you feel when you came back?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it made me—it was not a good thing. Bad memories. Losing—my dad’s losing his farm that he’d worked so many years and everything for—it basically shortened his life some.</p>
<p>[TELEPHONE RINGS]</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh!</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, it’s okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it means I got to take a pill.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So I need my bag over there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, sure. Emma, can you grab that? And then we have water right here for you.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. I forgot about it. I would have turned it off.</p>
<p>Emma Rice: This bag?</p>
<p>Franklin: Believe me, it’s all right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, if I don’t, I might forget it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, no, believe me, it’s—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: You know, when you’re 85, you’ve got to be careful.</p>
<p>Rice: No, you—[LAUGHTER] You’re good.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I’ve got water here. I’ll be fine.</p>
<p>Rice: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But it was also a little complicated, because living at the Richland Wye, we had one time and Richland had another time. It was an hour’s difference between us.</p>
<p>Franklin: Huh? Really?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yes. Yes, Richland city proper—property was on—an hour ahead of us.</p>
<p>Franklin: Huh! Oh, is that—that must be before they—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That’s before the government gave out—</p>
<p>Franklin: --firmed up the time zones, right?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. That’s very—that I had not heard at all.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We wanted to go to Richland to a movie, we had to go at a different time.</p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Is there any—I’ve heard there’s still a few buildings in Richland left from the pre-’43 days.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, there’s a few houses. The Carlson house as far as I know is still here. And John Dam’s store, I think, is still here. Down there, off of Lee, where they have that roundabout with the metal tree?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: His store stood in right there somewhere. I’m pretty sure that building is still there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But I’m not positive to that at all.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of course.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It would be on the corner of Lee and Jadwin.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But everything has changed so much. And then there’s—across the street, on Lee going into the park, on the left-hand side, I’m pretty sure that’s an original building. Well, maybe not original to Richland, but it was in Richland before Hanford. It was, I think, a bar. And something else, because I remember going in there and asking Dad for a dime so that the six of us—at the time there was just six of us—could buy some candy. And for a dime, we got a whole bagful.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And I remember the butcher—George Gress was his name. Had a butcher shop. He was German, and he made these wonderful sausages that were ready to eat. Us kids would go down and stand in front of his store and look in the window at it. Ha! He had such a good heart. And we’d send our youngest brother in because he was so cute—in to see George. And he—Dean, my brother—would come out with sausage hung around his neck. [LAUGHTER] And we’d all have some sausage. I don’t know if my parents ever found out about that or not. If they had, they’d have put a stop to it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. What was—I gather that a lot of the street names were changed when the government came in.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was—you mentioned the John Dam store was on Lee and Jadwin, so I imagine there were streets there.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It is now. I don’t know that there was a—if there was, I don’t remember it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. I would go down there to cash—I was old enough to go and cash the dairy checks that Dad got for his milk and stuff.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And instead of him coming in to do it, or my mother—when I was at school I’d go and cash them there. But I don’t remember there being any streets.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Do you—I know Howard Amon Park was there before the—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: So do you have any memories of Howard Amon Park?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh [LAUGHTER] yes. Well, first of all it wasn’t quite as large now. But Howard, as far as I know, gave that—he died before I was born, but I knew all the other Amons.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But I think he gave them the lease on that land for eternity as a park. And that concrete gate they have down there, I remember that as being larger, but of course I was a child, you know, so maybe it wasn’t larger. But no, the one story I remember about that was our class had an Easter egg hunt down there one year. I was one of the tallest in the class, so I could find all the Easter eggs. They were real eggs. [LAUGHTER] I had a small washpan full. [LAUGHTER] And the teacher asked me if I’d share them with the children. And I said, oh, yeah, glad to! Because we had a farm and we had 500 chickens laying eggs, you know? And I did not want to take home a bunch of boiled eggs to my mother. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, you were probably eating enough eggs.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But what I really remember is the winter of the egg hunt, got a chocolate bunny about this high. And I got that bunny. So I didn’t care about the eggs, I won that chocolate bunny. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right! Can you talk a little bit about going to school in Richland and kind of just—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: You know, the teachers and the kinds of subjects you learned and the classes taught and just kind of how that experience was for you?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it was just really average, except there wasn’t anywhere near as many of us, of course. One of my teachers was Miss Carlson, who was a friend of my mother’s. Now, when I came into the Kennewick School District, I had gone to school the first year in Corfu. We had a two-room schoolhouse, and I was the entire elementary school. I was the only student in the elementary school.</p>
<p>Franklin: Who—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And there was three high school students. And our teacher was a high school teacher, and he didn’t know what to do with me.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So he read me stories all day long. Whenever he got a chance, he’d read me stories and teach me a little bit. So when I came to Richland, I was very far behind.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And Miss Carlson got one of the other students to spend a couple hours with me in the library to catch me up. So I caught up to the third grade, and then from then on, it was pretty easy. Pretty good.</p>
<p>Franklin: Who was the—so you went to a four-person school in Corfu—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, actually, the second year in Corfu, it was five, because my brother joined me in the elementary school. We doubled our elementary school.</p>
<p>Franklin: Doubled the elementary school. Were your family religious at all? Did they attend church in Richland or Corfu?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No, no, we didn’t. But my mother was a religious person, and we got some there. Now, I don’t remember going to church there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Of course, later on, I did. We all—and my parents decided that the seven of us could choose our own religions. So they didn’t push us in any particular direction. But my father ended up a Catholic.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And my mother was baptized in the Baptist church. And I go to a Baptist church.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s very—I don’t know—very progressive kind of stance on education—or on Christianity—on religion for that time period. Because so many preexisting—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, they were always very strong. I never heard my parents say “if” you get out of high school; it was always “when” you get out—“when” you graduate. I had one brother who didn’t, but he had some vision problems, and he went into the Air Force and finished in the Air Force. So we’re all graduates. And I have a couple—a brother that’s a graduate of—I guess Washington. I’m not sure. He did it—he was in the Army, so he had some education in Berlin, El Paso, Texas, wherever he could get it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, sure.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But education was always pushed in our family.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, that’s great.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: I mean, it’s so fundamental for success later in life.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right. Well, it’s really the reason we left Corfu and went back to Richland, is because, obviously, my brother and I were not learning anything in Corfu. We were just not. And the teacher was not a good teacher. So they pulled us out and we came down here to—because of us getting education.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Are you—where are you—you said you had seven brothers and—or you’re of seven--?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I’m the oldest of seven.</p>
<p>Franklin: You’re the oldest of seven, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I have five brothers and one sister.</p>
<p>Franklin: So I can imagine, then, that they—staying in Corfu, they would be looking at kind of a legacy of not so good edu—you know.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right. Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that makes a lot of—and how close are you all in age? Are you fairly close in age?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, let’s see. Yeah, we are, except for two of them. There’s me, and 18-19 months later is my brother, Verne, whom you’ve already interviewed. Then there’s Roy, who’s another year, year-and-a-half. And Lorne is a year, and then my sister comes a year after Lorne. And then there’s Dean and then five years after Dean—surprise, there’s Dale. [LAUGHTER] So that’s how we run. All pretty close.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Most families have at least one surprise.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: What did your mother do in this time, you know—did she work on the farm with your father?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. She did until she became allergic to the sun.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh! There’s a lot of sun here.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But most of her time was spent either with us children, or she was canning. She had a garden. Of course our garden was quite large. And then the farm was alfalfa and dairy. But we had a big garden.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did she or your father ever take any cash work before the government came? You know, any kind of off-the-farm jobs or anything?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No. Well, yeah, wait. When the war came, we were still on the farm, and Dad went to work at Big Pasco. You heard of Big Pasco?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, the holding—the supply depot.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right, supplies for the Army. He worked there for a short while—maybe a year. I don’t remember how long. I do remember why he quit. He had a major that was a 90-day wonder, they used to call them. He’d been an officer for 90 days. And anyway, he and Dad got into it over something, and Dad says, well, I quit. And he said, well, you can’t quit, because you’re working for the Army. You’re frozen in the job. And Dad said, well, that’s just tough, and walked off. Two days later, this officer and a sergeant showed up at our house and was going to take Dad off to the Army. Well, he was 35. Dad just lined us kids up in the yard and said, these are my six kids, and there’s a seventh one on the way. I am a farmer, so therefore I’m deferred. And I remember the major getting terribly angry, and the sergeant actually drug him back to the Jeep. He was so angry! And as they were driving away,Dad said, oh and by the way, I have an ulcer. Which the Army wouldn’t touch him with an ulcer. I remember that so clearly because it was absolutely hilarious. Well, that was my father, the way he did things.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is there anything else you would like to say about Richland before the war that I haven’t asked you about?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, I remember the day that Pearl Harbor happened.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, yeah.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I was listening to the radio in the house, and my mother was outside talking to somebody, some lady. And I heard the announcement that Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and so I went outside and I asked my mother, where’s Pearl Harbor? And she said, in Hawai’i. And I told her what happened, and I’ll never forget her remark. She said, thank God my boys are little. And that’s about all I remember about that.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That particular day.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that’s very searing.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But I had uncles who ended up in the war and all that kind of stuff. No, I don’t remember an awful lot about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, sure.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, I do remember, they had a rubber drive. And we had a rubber—we had a tire swing in our yard that Dad had put up for us. And us kids, we scoured that farm for rubber and metal for the defense, you know? We were getting ready to cut the tire down, and Dad made us stop. He said, no, you’ve given enough. He said, you’re not giving up your swing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Aw.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I do remember that.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s really sweet.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did things economically start to improve for your family during the war?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: They did, when the war come, yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Until, of course, the evacuation.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: I kind of already asked you about how coming back made you feel. When you look at Hanford and its kind of legacy, you must have an interesting—you have a different perspective from most people that came here during the war.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Sometimes I’m resentful because of what happened with my parents and what they lost—what we all lost, everybody who ever lived here. But then again, you just kind of live with it. But I do get upset when people don’t want to talk about anything but Hanford. I want them to remember there was something here 200 years before. Because we had Indians here. We had woolly mammoths walking up and down the Columbia River, for heaven’s sake. And what about the Indian history? I don’t hear much about Indian history.</p>
<p>Franklin: No, that’s a good question.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: There was Indians living up there!</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Did you ever have—did you ever meet any Wanapum or Yakama people?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I never met a Wanapum until years later—in fact, about five or six years ago. But I did know some Yakamas, but not while I was living in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that’s—several groups of people have been alienated from the land here.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right, yeah. Oh, the Indians—they were done really rotten.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yes they were.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Long before we were. I never could figure out—</p>
<p>Franklin: I teach—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Why do we call Indians savages when our people were really the savages? Stealing their land and everything.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes, and indiscriminately killing them.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yes, that’s how I—well, our admiration of President Roosevelt went into the dumper when Hanford happened.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, there were a lot of people mad at him, because—I never did see it—but I’ve been told many times that there was a letter written by Roosevelt, saying that we could have the land back at the price they paid for it when they were through with it. Well, when the time came, and the government left here, he said, no, he’d never written it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And nobody could ever prove it. But I just heard about it; I never did see it.</p>
<p>Franklin: When you—can you describe about when you and your family found out about the atomic bombs dropped, that one of them was—part of that was produced at Hanford, and Hanford’s connection to that. How did that—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it was kind of a shock to even realize it was something as powerful as that. But the day that we found out was when Dad came home with a newspaper, and it was in there. And he said, well, now we finally know what they were doing out there and why they were doing it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did that change anyone’s feelings about what had happened, or—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I don’t—</p>
<p>Franklin: Or not?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Some people it did. I went to a funeral a few years ago for one of the Richland—for Eddie Supplee’s wedding. It was quite a family of Supplees here. They were still bitter. He was very bitter before he died. I talked to him not long before he died and he was very bitter about Hanford, and it had been so many years. So it was a lot of people with a lot of resentment.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever connect—do you know if there’s much connection between the displaced peoples of Hanford who later resettled and then the so-called down-winders, people that were affected later by releases from Hanford? Do you know if there was ever any talk between those two groups?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No, not that I know of. Not that I’m aware of. I know one thing—when the construction workers came in—of course, they spilled out all over, because there was over 30,000 of them—</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah huge influx.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And they were settling all over in Kennewick and everywhere. Some of them were not a good class of people. You know, they were—I met a few of them, and they were pretty bad. But when everybody left Richland, they left the cream of the crop. We got some really great people in. We got a lot of good scientists. We are really quite an area for science and everything.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: How does that make you—you sound a little—both happy that they’re there, but obviously then there’s this other side of it where—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, I—</p>
<p>Franklin: --had this not happened, that would still be—that your family would still have a place here.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I’m just the sort of a person—I adjust just very easily. I’ll say, well, this is life; this is the way it’s going. Why—there’s nothing I can do about it so, just enjoy what you have.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you came back to the Wye when you—how old were you when your parents—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I was 15 when we first came to the Wye, and I’m still living in the same house.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, in the house that had been—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah!</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it was down on Columbia Park Trail. At the time it was Columbia Drive, but it set right almost on the road. In the Flood of ’48 or whatever that year was—it was about that far from our front door.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But my dad moved it up on a little hill. And, yeah, I’m still living in that house.</p>
<p>Franklin: You are still living in that house.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Uh-huh, yeah. I still own it.</p>
<p>Franklin: So the house from—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: The house that we moved from Finley to Richland Wye in was a two—three-room house. There wasn’t enough bedrooms—it was all that we could get at the time. But behind it was a Quonset hut left over from the war.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So Dad moved—and Mom moved—my brothers and me out there, because I was 15, and I could be out there at night to—whatever the kids—boys needed, and to keep them from killing one another. You know how that is with—[LAUGHTER]—boys.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, I know.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So we slept in the Quonset hut until Dad moved the house up on the hill where it is now, and added to it. And they raised seven kids, and the two of them, and an uncle who stayed with us for a while, in a two-bedroom house, very small house. Bunk beds all over the place, but we made out. And then years later, my brother put a basement in there. He lives in the basement now and I live upstairs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: We both own the house.</p>
<p>Franklin: Neat.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It’s only about 75 years old. [LAUGHTER] It’s falling down around us, but we’re both in our 80s, so—</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that house brought here during World War II, or does that predate it?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It was sitting there—I don’t know what the history on it. I know my parents bought it for $1,000—that and the land under it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: That’s under it now. Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s really—and so what were your—so you moved back at 15, and then what—you graduated from the—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Kennewick High.</p>
<p>Franklin: Kennewick High.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: ’49.</p>
<p>Franklin: ’49. And then what did you do?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It was just a few months later I went in the Navy.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So I was in the Navy, and went to Bay Bridge, right out of Baltimore—not Baltimore—yeah, Baltimore for boot camp. And then I went to San Diego for school, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: And what did you do in—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I was a commissaryman. What I did was—to put it as simple as I can—is I ran a large, very large restaurant. I was a crew boss. There was actually two of us, because it was—our shifts were 18-hour shifts.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So, I’d work five days one week and two days the next, and the other girl would take over for the opposite watch. Anyway, it was like running a huge restaurant, except I didn’t have to worry about the menu; that came out of Washington, DC. I did that for two years. Then I got married, and married an engineman from South Carolina. That’s where the Ferqueron name comes from. We traveled around quite a bit for a couple years—well, about four or five years. Had one daughter. And he became an officer—a submarine officer.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: In Hawai’i.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So I’ve lived in Hawai’i, I’ve lived in California—my daughter was born in California—Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Florida, and Washington. [LAUGHTER] I think I’ve got them all, anyway. That was over a 30-year period.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. So when did you come back to the Richland area?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: In 1988—’84. ’84.</p>
<p>Franklin: 1984.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: ’84. My mother had a very mild heart attack, and I sold my house in South Carolina and came out here to take care of her. And just stayed, because she left me the house—me and my brother—the house. And I went to work for churches here in childcare. I worked for five different churches.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And I retired from doing that, and now I do a lot of volunteer work.</p>
<p>Franklin: So when you left Richland, or the area of Richland, it was kind of this closed town.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: It was very—yeah. And small, compared to today.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, smaller and also wholly government owned.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And when you came back, Richland was, you know—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Wide open, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wide open. And then shortly after, production at Hanford ceased.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’m wondering if you can talk about that a bit, how you felt about that, and kind of watching that legacy of Hanford stop.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, I just—I really don’t know how I really felt about it. I just went about my way, and not too concerned. Although I wondered—all of that money and stuff in there and they’re closing it down. You know? And they might have to open it up again at some time. You never know.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s true.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I didn’t spend too much worrying about the past.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you keep in touch with a lot of people from old Richland when you lived around, and--?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No. They were so scattered that I didn’t—I lost contact with a lot of them, including some relatives.</p>
<p>Franklin: What about when you came back to Richland, did you start to rebuild those relationships again?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No, uh-unh. No, most of my relationships, even today, are from Kennewick High.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, because I have lunch with the people that are still living here. I have lunch with them once a month.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. I mean, that makes sense because they weren’t scattered forcibly.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right, and the people who went to high school in Richland, we really had nothing to do with, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because they were—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right, entirely different—</p>
<p>Franklin: Entirely different. And you weren’t welcome in Richland anymore, right? I mean—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, they didn’t understand how we felt about it. How could they understand?</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. To them it had been an opportunity.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, and they came here, and they thought they built the town up from a sand pile to what it is today. You know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you about today that you’d like to mention?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I do have something I have arguments with people about and that’s why the Richland Wye is called the Richland Wye. They all assume it’s the highway. It’s not. It’s an old Indian trail.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And the reasons why is because the Yakama tribes would come down from Yakima and camp at the Richland Wye. The Wanapums and the tribes up that way would come down, cross the river, approximately where we cross it now—the Yakima. They would meet the Yakama tribe there; they would go on to Walla Walla for the pow-wows, and that forms the Richland Wye.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, interesting. And where did you—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I used to go to the meetings for the Daughters of Washington State. I didn’t quite qualify—my family didn’t come quite—or I couldn’t prove that they came quite soon enough for me to be a complete Daughter of Washington, but—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And then our particular section broke up. People started dying off, and—I was quite a bit younger than some of them. This is where I learned more about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. Well, they do have a marker out there now that says heritage trail, but there’s no explanation as to what it is.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And I think the Indians should have credit for that! [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: I mean, they certainly had extensive trading and travel networks and that things we—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, yeah. They did that once every year, I think.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I believe so.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: So it formed a trail.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, there’s a lot there that we first ignored, and then the interest was in some cases too late for--</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, everything is focused on Hanford now. And Battelle and the companies that are here now, and the labs out there, and Battelle. I think all that stuff is great, but to me, I still see a farm out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. I mean, how could you not? I mean, you had—you grew up there.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Right. Well, from ten days old.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Exactly.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I can still picture my grandfather’s farm just as if it was still there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, Lorraine, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. It’s been really insightful, and—yeah, I think it’s really important to have a voice of those pre-war communities and that transition period, and how there’s this other narrative of Hanford that sometimes gets lost in the telling of the story.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah. I don’t want it to get lost. I want those people to be remembered. Because they gave a big sacrifice. That was a huge sacrifice.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it is.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Even though it was forced, it was still—there is one other story I heard, and one of the farms here was owned by a woman and her cherries were ready to pick, and they told her she couldn’t pick them. She had to get out first. And this is a story I heard from the time I was 12. She had a shotgun loaded with rock salt. You know what rock salt is?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Of course. Well, she shot the FBI man. Hurt him pretty bad. And I remember everybody in town was, well, she’s going to go to jail. You shoot an FBI man, you’re going to go to jail. Nothing was ever done, she picked her cherries and moved out.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, it was too secret; they couldn’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because if they had taken her to court, that arrest record would be—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: There would be reporters in no time. It would’ve been all over the country in no time at all.</p>
<p>Franklin: To kind of make that go away, right? Wow, that’s really something. That’s a great story.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, Lorraine, again, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Well, I want to do anything I can to make sure people remember there was a Richland before Hanford started.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, and we’re going to add this oral history right by your brother’s, and so have that as a great—again, thank you for helping expand that—</p>
<p>Ferqueron: The other children in our family are too young, and my brother Roy is so deaf he couldn’t hear you if he tried, and he doesn’t like to think about those times at all. And he was born in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: But a midwife who later became our grandmother—she married my—she had a farm here in Richland, and she lost her husband in ’35, and my grandmother lost his wife—my grandmother—in ’36. And they farmed alongside one another for many, many years.</p>
<p>[TELEPHONE RINGS]</p>
<p>Ferqueron: And then they got married. After we were all grown. So one day at school, there was a whole bunch of kids there that were just other kids; the next day they were my cousins. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s really something.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, it was interesting.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, again, I can’t thank you enough, Lorraine.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, well, I’ve enjoyed it, really.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, good! Me too. Me too. Okay, so we’ll--</p>
<p>Ferqueron: I wish I remembered more. I was only 12, 13.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, that gives you enough, though, you know, concrete experiences that you do remember.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Yeah, there’s a lot of family names that I remember. And, well, like I said, I’ve gone to a couple funerals from there. But those are pretty much gone now. I think it’ll be my family next.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, hopefully not too soon.</p>
<p>Ferqueron: Oh, no. Well, I just had a heart valve put in, and the doctor told me to—and I’m 85—and the doctor told me to come back--</p>
<p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:53:56
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1931-1949 1984-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lorraine Ferqueron
Description
An account of the resource
Lorraine Ferqueron was born in Pasco, Washington in 1931. Lorraine grew up in Fruitdale and Richland until 1943 when her family was displaced for the Manhattan Project.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/18/2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Irrigation
Farming
Grand Coulee Dam (Wash.)
Displacement
Yakama Indians
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/18">Oral History Metadata</a>
Battelle
Cat
Christianity
Dam
FBI
Flood
Hanford
Kennewick
Park
Picnic
Quonset hut
River
School
supplies
War
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F19f8673c03062cba662f73057746c3e9.JPG
11589b192b7b88e4df48e0da8e66b896
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F11e1591d4403d3f4f270ed3cdd923b30.mp4
2fe4d5fbd6741845d7707373526ce083
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Madge Watson
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Watson_Madge</strong></p>
<p>Man one: --Pretty good shape.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Man one: Okay. I'm up. I'm rolling.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Man two: I’m rolling.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. All right. Well, why don't you go ahead and say your name just for the record first?</p>
<p>Madge Watson: Madge Watson. When I came, I was Madge Shardlow.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what was your last name?</p>
<p>Watson: Shardlow.</p>
<p>Bauman: How do you spell that?</p>
<p>Watson: S-H-A-R-D-L-O-W.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. Thank you very much. My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Madge Watson. Today is July 17<sup>th</sup> of 2013, and the interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking today about your experiences working at the Hanford site. So I wonder if you could tell me first how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place, and when that was.</p>
<p>Watson: I came in '48, and I was graduating. I was in my senior year at Washington State, Pullman, and I had my degree in bacteriology and public health. And they recruited on campus, and all they would say is, we can't tell you what you're going to be doing. It's very secretive. But you have just the background for it. So it kind of left you wondering what I was doing, but you had to have the FBI clearance and a medical test and all of that. But before long, I got the letter asking if I would like to work here and what to do. And so I said I'll start on the 1<sup>st</sup> of July. That was '48, and that was the year the Columbia flooded, and it really flooded, and they had put up the dike here. But I don't think I had ever been in this area before. I grew up in Spokane Valley, and we always went up in the mountains when we had time off. So I came down thinking, I'll try it for a year and see how I like it. And so I came down by train, and friends who lived in Kennewick met another girl who had the same degree I did and was coming down just for the summer, and took us to the George Washington Way hiring center there to check in. But you couldn’t—the bridge was washed out of the Yakima, so you had to go over Bombing Range Road, which was just a dirt road, and over the old bridge on the Yakima. Came in, and they said, well, housing is really scarce, because we've used all available housing for people who have been affected by the flood. But they took us out to North Richland to a barracks that had not been used in I don't know how long. It was so dirty, you couldn't believe it. They dropped us off, and they said, you go over here to get your meals—an enormous place there. But we get busy and cleaned up the room that we were assigned to, and went over to get something to eat for lunch and walked into the biggest room I had ever seen. And I didn't see another woman in there. And the girl I was with was blonde and very striking, and there were all these calls, and we thought, what are we into here? [LAUGHTER] So we went back and packed up our bags, our suitcases--we didn't have much--and hitchhiked back into town and went to where they had brought us out from and said, we really don't like it out there. [LAUGHTER] Do you have anything else? Not realizing that people were waiting months to get into town at that time. And they said, who hired you? And we said the right answer. So they found us housing just in back of where the Federal Building is, right away. And coming out of school, it was fine, because everybody was in together, and it was just a regular room with one bed and one dresser and a shower and a bathroom on each floor—it was two stories high. So we settled down and caught our bus and went out to work and found out we were in the water treatment plant for 100 F, and the man who was our supervisor--and I can't think of his name--but he had developed the systems that were used for water treatment in cities. All the new ones were using his design. And so we walked in, and he said, we've got a couple of college graduates, and let us loose on equipment we had never seen before. [LAUGHTER] Washington State didn't have that type of equipment. And so we worked on it, and it was very basic chemistry, so it wasn't anything that was difficult at all. But they started having trouble with the screens clogging up. And so they looked through the files at anybody that had any biological training. They put about six or seven of us in a separate room, gave us microscopes and books, and we learned about diatoms and all of the plankton that might follow screens, and worked on that for several months. And when that project was finished, I was asked if I would like to work in the fisheries building. Well, my mother and father and I all liked fish. I thought that sounded like a good place. So my first supervisor was Jared Davis. He was an entomologist, again, from Washington State. And caddisflies were his specialty. But what they were doing out there is wanting to know what the effect of the reactors that were running would have on the river, especially the fish. They were concerned about that. So we got out there, and it was the winter of '49, I think it was. It was so cold that when we went down to the river to take an area and get all the various things that were in the water off. If you took the rock out of the water, it froze immediately, so you had to do all your gathering under the water there. But I learned so much, because Jared was a good teacher. And it was very interesting, because the fisheries part had been there for several years. Dr. Foster, Dick Foster, was in charge of that. He'd come from the University of Washington. And to know exactly what was happening on the river from the many reactors that were taking the water in and coming out radioactive on some of the things, they had to go through all the different stages of plankton, the insects, the algae, all the various things that were in the river. And so it was really exciting. I brought a greeny that shows--I would like to show you. It wasn't very fancy at all. It was just a Quonset hut, and in between that was a counting—where you could do your counting of your samples. And then on the other side was another Quonset hut with a greenhouse behind it. And they were just getting started. Everybody was new. I would say practically all except the top people had just come out of school. They'd been in the service, and they were really anxious to get going. There was very little known about the effect of radiation on anything at that time. So it was all brand new, and if there was anything known, it was classified, and you had to get it out of the classified material on it. So we did everything. We had places where we grew the things in the lab, where we could have a controlled experiment. We sampled up and down the river. We had a boat that had a driver that could take us out on the river. We could set nets. We could get plankton nets. We could do all kinds of things like that. So every day was new and different, and everything you did led to something else that you wanted to try and find out why. What was doing what was happening? And so what I'm really trying to get across to you is how everybody came so enthused. They had studied in school. They were going to put this to use now, and it was really a very interesting, exciting place to work. I even learned to drive a weapons carrier that you had to double clutch. [LAUGHTER] I'd never thought I'd have to--</p>
<p>Bauman: When did you have to drive that?</p>
<p>Watson: We sampled in areas up and down off along the shore out deep. We tried everything, so at that time, they would never let it--when I looked at the job, I know my adviser said, Madge, if you go with--GE was running it—you won't find that you're handicapped by being a woman, that you will have your chances, and it was certainly true. I had every chance to do everything that anybody else did.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there many other women working in the fishery area?</p>
<p>Watson: In the fisheries area, there weren't many. But as time went on, more and more came, but—no, there weren't actually. There was Jared and Ray Kupi and, of course, Dick was in charge of it. So they had the regular fish runways that you see. They had ponds outside that were there.</p>
<p>Bauman: So it was a fairly small group of people.</p>
<p>Watson: It was. It was. In fact, the lab that we had would be about 20 feet long and about eight or nine feet wide. We had a hood at one end, and we had Bunsen burners out everywhere. And I remember that one of the men that was there was—I had hair that was very long, and he was sure I was going to go up in flames. [LAUGHTER] So I would braid it or do something with it to keep it out of the way, because we were just learning and experimenting as we went.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so clarify, where was the location of these Quonset huts that you--?</p>
<p>Watson: They were not at the main building at 100 F that biology had started up. But they had been put up very early to try and figure out, because everybody was concerned about what effect it would have on the salmon there. I brought along an interesting article on Dick Foster's talking about it, and it has the layout of the place. I don't know if you want to try and get pictures of that eventually or not.</p>
<p>Bauman: Maybe we could after.</p>
<p>Watson: Yeah, afterwards.</p>
<p>Man one: Before you answer the next one, would you tip your glasses just a hair? If you just lift them up on your ear just a little bit like this way.</p>
<p>Bauman: Just sort of down a little.</p>
<p>Man one: So they tip down just a little bit. I don't want them to be uncomfortable for you.</p>
<p>Watson: No, they aren't.</p>
<p>Man one: I don't want you to feel like you have to move in a funny way. I'm just getting more reflection than I want.</p>
<p>Watson: Reflection than you want, sure.</p>
<p>Man one: That's great. Thank you so much. Sorry about that.</p>
<p>Watson: Sure.</p>
<p>Bauman: No problem. So let's talk a bit about the area. You talked about first arriving and the situation with the housing. What were your impressions of Richland and the Tri-Cities in those early days here?</p>
<p>Watson: It was really fun. Living in the dorm, they had so much trouble losing people because of the dust storms, and it was pretty primitive conditions all right. But they put on classes every night, because there was no recreation here for anybody. So I took accounting. I took fly tying. I took hat-making. All kinds of different things. But you only stayed in town about two weekends out of the whole year. People didn't have cars then, which would seem so strange to my grandchildren. [LAUGHTER] But they didn't, but everybody had an FBI clearance. So where you worked, they would put up—the ones with cars would put up where they were going. And you signed up, and then you went with them. So I went in every direction there was from here going places, all with people that--</p>
<p>Bauman: So how did you get to the site? Did you take buses then? Is that how you got to and from the site?</p>
<p>Watson: Yes. You got up, and you had a bus that cane by and took you to—there's still the bus transfer station there, and it was much, much larger, of course, at that time. And you got on there, and it was really interesting, because there were so few women going out to the areas that very often the men would stand aside and let the women on first. I'm sure that doesn't happen anymore. [LAUGHTER] But it did then.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so you mentioned having security clearance. Obviously, security was a very important part of the Hanford site.</p>
<p>Watson: It was.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wondered if you'd talk about that a little more and any issues with that.</p>
<p>Watson: I'll go from the very first when, of course, the FBI went out and asked neighbors, and a neighbor called my mother and said, the FBI called about Madge, but I didn't tell them a thing. [LAUGHTER] But we had safety meetings one week. We had security meetings the other week. It was really drilled into you that you did not talk about what went on out in the plant and what you were doing. And I really realized that just this year when my daughter was asking me, Mom, you never talked about it. And I realized when I could, I hadn't. Evidently, it just was instilled so much into me not to talk about it. I've been with you all these years, and I didn't even know some of these things that you did. But she knew the people, because the people that you worked with became fast friends, and they truly were fast friends.</p>
<p>Bauman: Now, the people you worked with, did they come from all over the United States?</p>
<p>Watson: They did. They truly did. I worked this little Quonset hut that had the greenhouse, eventually. The next year, my husband-to-be, Don Watson, came, and he was a fisheries biologist, and they evidently, when they knew we were going to get married, they asked if I'd like to go work in the building next door. So I did. And it was very interesting work too, because they were just starting up, and we went out and went all over, even up to Saddle Mountain taking plant samples and doing the same thing that I'd done before there. And then you probably know of Leo Bustad who came. We had had biochemistry together in college, but he used a sheep as an experimental animal. And the place for that was just in back of where the Quonset was with the greenhouse. And so he needed bacteriological work done when he did postmortems on the animals. And so I got an autoclave and microscope and everything for working. And it was interesting, because there had been a close collaboration between Kadlec Hospital and here, out in the area. And so they did blood work every couple of weeks on everybody to--not that often. Maybe once a month. And so you got to know them. But it was good. You didn't have to have everything here. You could get the auger that you needed, the various dyes, and things like that from the hospital. So all the different groups worked together very well.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so Kadlec would do blood tests on everyone regularly? Is that what you're--</p>
<p>Watson: I assume it was Kadlec that did it. I really don't know for sure now whether they had—they came out to the area. You didn't go in there. They came out to the area, and you just did that. But I know that we worked very closely with Kadlec, and some of the people that worked there were the staff of the hospital too there, so it was very much a collaborative effort.</p>
<p>Bauman: Now you mentioned your husband was a fisheries biologist. Did you meet at work then?</p>
<p>Watson: We did meet at work. He took me fishing, and I caught a fish with a fly I tied myself, and we were married within five months. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So I imagine that most of the people you knew in Richland were connected to Hanford, in some way, worked there.</p>
<p>Watson: They were. And every kind of things you got out on the bus. The first time when I got on the bus, I sat down in an aisle seat, and one of the fellows said, do you play bridge? I said, yes. He said, good. Turn around. And out comes the boards they had that would fit between the seats on the aisle there. And so you always had the seat waiting for you there to do that.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder if you could talk about maybe what were the most rewarding parts of the work you did or maybe some of the most challenging aspects of the work.</p>
<p>Watson: I worked with a series of people. After I had worked there and worked with Leo and then with Dr. Berry on another part, I went up to the main offices, and I worked with Dr. Porter, Dr. John Porter. He was growing algae, single cell algae, to do the biochemistry using radioactive materials on there. And it was really interesting, because I learned an aspect—I'd had the medical part, but I hadn't had it using it as experimental. And in all these, it was like being in grad school. You were paid for what you were doing, but you learned so much with everything. You learned. And I think all of us just felt challenged.</p>
<p>Bauman: So how long did you work at Hanford, and at what point did you stop working there and why?</p>
<p>Watson: When I was expecting my first child, then I stopped working. And I did not go back, but I have, over the years, used so much of what I learned. I was interested in League of Women Voters, and that was at the time the Clean Water Act was doing. And I handed out petitions, and I set up—I attended the meeting on the Columbia as a representative from the local league, and then was asked to set up one on the Snake and on the Yakima River, where we got all the users of water. And since my father and mother had a fruit and vegetable farm that was irrigated, I certainly knew the farming end of it. And what we were trying to do is get people together to understand water and the uses of the water. And one of the things that I was proudest of was the fact that it was the first time an Indian nation had accepted and taken responsibility for attending. At that time, their attorneys and their biologists were non-Native American. But today, it's very different. But we got people to talk in that way. The Yakima River, which at the time, was the dirtiest river in the state, we even had a meat processing plant that the water was taken in, and effluent went right back out into the river at the time. So a lot has been accomplished. But it takes time with everything.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was your interest in the Clean Water Act connected to the work you had done at Hanford then?</p>
<p>Watson: Yes, because I'd really gotten interested in the water, and, of course, my husband continued to work out there. He started in '49 doing the salmon counts, the red counts in which are the nests in the river. And nobody else could stand to be in a plane where they put the tip down and just circled around as you counted with a little clicker, the reds, to count them. And so he did that for over 40 years. So I had many different interests in water.</p>
<p>Bauman: Sure. So when you worked the site in the fisheries area, did you find any significant impact from Hanford, other—on the river or on the fish?</p>
<p>Watson: They thought it was going to be temperature, but it wasn't temperature. It was the chromium that they put in to—I think it was to stabilize the equipment that was in there. And that's what it was. And so we ran a bunch of tests on different levels of chromium and what would be toxic and would not be toxic.</p>
<p>Bauman: That was the sort of major finding you had.</p>
<p>Watson: That was. And the change in temperature was enough that they found that some of the bacteria that affected the fish were more—with the warmer water it was much harder on them.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what year was it then? You said that you were expecting your first child. What year was it?</p>
<p>Watson: That was '55.</p>
<p>Bauman: '55, okay. So I was going to ask you, I know an event that a lot of people were here at the time remember President Kennedy visited in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. I know you weren't working at Hanford Site anymore, but obviously it was something that the people in the community were very interested in, so I wonder if you have any memories of that.</p>
<p>Watson: I do. I lived on Butternut Street at the time. We had 50 preschool children on that street. So two of us mothers took our children and headed out to see it. And if you could see the number of cars—and so we thought we were being really clever tying a band on the antenna, on the car radio antenna. Well, so did everybody else. We looked and looked for our car [LAUGHTER] when it was through. But it was a fun time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything, any major events, other dignitaries visiting, or sort of incidents or anything that sort of stands out during your time working there that you remember?</p>
<p>Watson: Well, you did meet just about everybody, because there were so few when I was there that they came through looking to see what was being done. So you got to meet them. But those--what really stands out in my mind is how everybody cooperated. It really was a fun way to do it.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. I'm going to shift a little bit and ask you a bit more about the community of Richland. You mentioned being involved in the League of Women Voters. And you also served on the city council. I wondered if you could talk about that, about what led you to get involved and what the community of Richland was like in the '50s and '60s.</p>
<p>Watson: Well, I said I was interested in League of Women Voters, and the first mayor was very interested in getting it. And one of the things that I did after I was not working out here any longer was I helped the school to establish a program that the principal said I've got children who've had all kinds of help in reading, and they still can't read, and they're smart as can be. And what's happening? So five of us went together and found a program, Slingerlands, and we spent an hour each day with one child, and it's using all the senses and figuring out which sense the child uses to learn to read, and a lot of repetition. And one child I had was dyslexic. But there's all different kinds of reasons for it. We just didn't know. And one of the gals there said—I had been asked if I would serve on the planning commission. And I had been doing this for about five years, and she said, Madge, I think you can make more of a difference there. So I did do that for six years, but in that time, I had always been interested in water, and so I was asked to serve on the state board on water. And I did that for a while. So everything kind of intertwines in what you do.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what time period was that then that you served on the planning committee and city council member?</p>
<p>Watson: Well, it must have been late '60s, early '70s. And then I was on the city council. I was appointed to the council, and then served a two-year term on it too. And then I decided that was enough meetings.</p>
<p>Bauman: That was good? [LAUGHTER] Now was your service on the state water board around the same time then?</p>
<p>Watson: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: One of things, obviously, happening with Richland is it was a government town obviously, when you first moved here, and that changed at some point. I was wondering if you wanted to talk about that at all? Do you have any memories of that or anything that stands out about that?</p>
<p>Watson: Before it became--when it was a government town, you couldn't get a house until you had children. And so we were in the George Washington apartments just next to the Uptown there for five years. And then went up to a ranch house. And that was heaven. [LAUGHTER] And then when they sold the houses, we bought it, and after several years, decided we liked the area. But we built a home just in back of Jason Lee School.</p>
<p>Bauman: So when the federal government gave you the option to purchase, then, was when you bought the home?</p>
<p>Watson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It certainly was a very generous offer.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there any--in the '50s, late '40s into the '50s, you mentioned there wasn't a lot of entertainment.</p>
<p>Watson: No.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there any community events? At some point, Atomic Frontier Days started at some point. Any things like that?</p>
<p>Watson: Yes, I can remember the parades when the children were just really small that they had those. When you get that many people together, there were the mountaineers. There were all these different groups that did things together on the weekends. So there were activities, but there just weren't that many cars around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So I wonder if overall you could—what your thoughts were about the years that you worked at Hanford, what it was like as a place to work, your assessment of that.</p>
<p>Watson: I really didn't have any--I had grown up on the farm, and we worked on the farm. And all the time I was in college, I was a teaching assistant, because they didn't have any graduate students to do it, so I was doing that in chemistry. And so I don't have a lot to compare it to. But it was a very friendly place, and everybody knew somebody either through work or through where they lived. But there truly wasn't much to do. There was a movie theater, but it wasn't very big. And there weren't many places to eat.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about or a memory that you haven't shared yet that you think would be good to share?</p>
<p>Watson: When I was looking through the material that I had in there, what really struck me was how long the friendships have been and how steadfast they have been. And it really--nobody had family here. So we were each other's family, and so you really got to know people in a way that I don't think you do in most places.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, thank you very much for coming and sharing your memories and your experiences.</p>
<p>Watson: You’re welcome.</p>
<p>Bauman: I really appreciate it.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:36:47
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
192 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
N Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1948-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1948-1955
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Jared Davis
Ray Kupi
Don Watson
Leo Bustad
Dr. Berry
Dr. John Porter
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Madge Watson
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Madge Watson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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07-17-2013
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
FBI
Hanford
Kennedy
Kennewick
Mountain
N Reactor
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Road
School
Street
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3709e8204c8899a93c9c81308951a94c.JPG
84a45b395471c72ce61c06a25b1e3919
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Lawrence
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Michael Lawrence on February 1<sup>st</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mike about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Michael Lawrence: Michael J. Lawrence. L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, how did you come to the Hanford Site?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I went—I grew up in Washington, DC. I was born and raised in Washington, DC, and I went to the University of Maryland and lived at home when I did so. And I was a physics major. Between my junior and senior year of college, I was fortunate enough to get one of five internships at the Atomic Energy Commission. That internship had me working in a division of the AEC, or Atomic Energy Commission, called the production division, which was responsible for, among other sites, the Hanford Site, because of its production of plutonium. During that summer, I actually shared an office with an individual who was responsible for the operations and missions of the N Reactor which was located here. So I had an opportunity to learn a little bit about Hanford at that particular point in time. When I graduated from Maryland with my degree in physics the next year, I had already been offered and had accepted a full-time job with the Atomic Energy Commission when I went back to the production division again to work. I was working on isotopes programs and other things when I was called into the director’s office one day. It just so happened that several years previously, in 1969 I believe, President Nixon had signed the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA, and one of the provisions in NEPA called for something which, at that point in time, was not known at all. Something called an environmental impact statement. You had to do environmental impact statements for any major federal projects, and our division was responsible for two projects that were going to occur in the early ‘70s here. One was the design and building of the quite a bit. And also had a sense of what it was going to be involved dealing with the public on important and issues that were of concern to the public, like the Z-9 crib and plutonium production. Because one of our hearings for those environmental impact statements was held down in Portland. And I can recall going down there, and there were demonstrators in radiation contamination clothing protesting and all the rest. And you got a chance to see just how the public felt about it. But that was my first instance of dealing with Hanford. Then later in the mid-‘70s—again, I’m still back in Washington, DC; AEC had become the Department of Energy—and I was responsible for a program to manage and store commercial spent nuclear fuel. And that program, the contractor and site that was helping us out was the Savannah River site in South Carolina. But because of the heavy burden they had, I decided it would be best if we changed the management of that program, or the contractor working on the program from Savannah River to the Hanford Site and to the Pacific Northwest National Lab—at that time was Pacific Northwest Lab; it wasn’t a national lab, but PNL. And so I started coming out again and working with the people here. So I had a pretty good understanding of the community and what was out here, and I liked it. But in the early 1980s, in 1982 to be exact, after several years of very, very intense negotiation back in the halls of Congress, the Nuclear Waste Policy Act was passed by Congress which set up a process and legal requirements for identifying, selecting, licensing, building, operating, and funding a geologic repository for commercial nuclear waste from commercial reactors and defense waste from the production of plutonium, primarily either at Hanford or at the Savannah River plant. I was one of several people called down from where I was working in Germantown, Maryland, down to Washington, DC to work on the direct implementation of that act. Obviously, that was a very—it was controversial, it was huge, and the new Secretary of Energy at that time—his name was Donald Hodel, who had formerly been the administrator of Bonneville out here in the Pacific Northwest—he was very familiar with the issues involved. And I got an opportunity to meet and work with him rather closely. And after several years of doing that, he asked me to come out here to be the manager of the Richland Operations Office.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. Thank you. That’s really fascinating, with all of your lengths between DC and to here. Did you—I want to ask—you mentioned a hearing in Portland where there were demonstrators. And that—I think it fits pretty well into what we hear a lot about how the west side and the east side of the state think about Hanford. Did you find a pretty supportive public here in Tri-Cities when you would come and hold meetings here in the area about, like, for example the Z-9 crib or other projects? Did you find a pretty supportive public?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I wouldn’t use the term supportive, I would use the term very informed and knowledgeable. They understood, to a greater degree, what the risks, what the concerns were, what the precautions were. Not universally, obviously. There were—and I have a good example of what a protestor would be. But basically, they seemed to be more informed, and certainly they were more knowledgeable of the situation. So the further away you went, the less direct knowledge people had of the situation. And so consequently—and it’s understandable, you know, they really didn’t have the same—they didn’t know people who worked at the Site. They didn’t—couldn’t appreciate the values that they had, their sensitivities. So that would be more the way I would describe it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Lawrence: What was interesting, and I just had alluded to, was after coming out here—this was in 1984; I came—arrived in July of 1984. And at the beginning of that year was when the PUREX Plant, which processed the fuel coming out of N Reactor and reprocessed it to recover the plutonium, had just gone back into operation after a number of years of being mothballed. This was all part of President Reagan’s buildup of our military strength and weapons complex to more or less challenge the Russians or the Soviet Union in their ability to do so. And so we were gearing back up, really, the plutonium production mission at the Hanford Site. It was obviously very controversial here in the Northwest. And it was just starting up, and there had actually been a leak from the PUREX Plant right after it started up. And what I found when I arrived here in July was that even though the people on the Site—the contractor and the officials here—were saying, no, this is what it was and this is what the effects were. There was very little credibility. People would not believe them. And there was a strong opposition to what they were doing. That was a challenging situation to walk into where you really don’t have any credibility. But the first week I was in town, first week as manager, down in my office in the Federal Building, which is up in the northeast corner of the Federal Building, seventh floor, looking out over John Dam Plaza and the park, and I looked out on the street, and there’s a person with a big sign and billboard saying, Mike Lawrence, carpetbagger, go home. And he’s just sitting on the park bench in front of the building. And I—you know, I’ve just arrived in town, and I’m looking at him. His name was Larry Caldwell. He was known to everybody in town; he liked to protest. And I’m looking down at him and I—I sort of like to engage. I don’t like to ignore things. So I said, you know, I think I’ll go out and talk to him. Well, that caused quite a stir. But I walked down and walked across the street, walked up to the park bench, introduced myself, sat down and we started talking. I wanted to find out, well, since you don’t know me, why do you call me a carpetbagger, why do you want me to go home? Let’s talk. And it was funny because in the midst of discussing this with him, I happened to glance back over. And if you’re familiar with the Federal Building, it’s just full of windows. Every window was filled with faces looking out. [LAUGHTER] They said, this is our new manager and he’s out there. Security was very concerned. But you know? It worked out fine. Larry told me what his problems were. He didn’t like the mission. I told him, I said, I understood that. I had a job to do; Congress had appropriated the money, and I’d been given a job to do, and I was going to do it the best I could. But I was going to do it trying to do it in keeping the public informed of what we were doing and being as upfront and—now the term is transparent. We didn’t use that term back then—but as transparent I could be in handling it. So that was my first direct encounter with a protestor, if you will. But I thought it turned out pretty well. But that gets to a broader topic that I’d like to address, and that is, as I said, the Department and its contractors, I found they didn’t have credibility. And I’m not saying it was anyone’s fault, but it’s my opinion that it’s very easy for organizations—Department of Energy, Richland, Hanford—to lose credibility. And the only way you regain that credibility is through individuals, by really engaging with people so they get a sense of who you are or who the people are doing the work. And so we tried from the very beginning back in 1984 to go out and to meet with the public, to engage the public, to be as open as we could to explain our perspective and what we were doing. Obviously, we didn’t expect everyone to agree with us; some people were just diametrically opposed to it. But you’d like them to at least sense that the people doing the work shared some of their values, shared their concerns, in doing their work. The best example I have of that is—I believe it was in 1985. Again, Hanford, because of our role going back into the nuclear weapons complex had been quite controversial. I received a call from the pastor of the Catholic church down in Kennewick, St. Joseph’s. And he said, Mike, I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but the three bishops—Catholic bishops—in Washington State are having prepared a letter—very, very critical of Hanford, its operations, and the people who work there. And he said, I just think that it’s being, I guess—a focal point was being headed up by a person in Yakima where the bishop was a Bishop William Skylstad. And I happened to have met and knew Bishop Skylstad from my own personal dealings with the church. And so I thanked the priest in Kennewick, and I called up Bishop Skylstad, and I said, I’d really like to come—I understand you’re having some work done on behalf of yourself and the other two bishops, and I’d like to really come and talk to you about it. And so I actually took the president of Rockwell Hanford, who operated PUREX, his name was Paul Lorenzini—very, very intelligent, smart guy—with me. And we went to meet with Bishop Skylstad and he had the individual who was writing this who happened also to be a member of the Hanford Education Action League in Spokane. And, you know, I read what they had prepared. It was talking about the Department of Energy is lying about this, and they’re poisoning, and they’re making these intentional releases. And in discussing that, after a while, Bishop Skylstad said to me, he said, Mike, Mike, calm down. He says, you’re taking this personally. And I looked at him and I said, Bishop, of course I’m taking it personally. When you say the Department of Energy is lying, who is that? Who is it that you’re saying is lying? And it was amazing, because he just stopped; all of a sudden, it dawned on him. He said, oh my goodness, I never thought of it that way. But you had to put a face in front of the organization. And that helped a lot. Now, the letter still came out and it was still very critical. But it wasn’t as accusatory as perhaps it was. It says, we’re opposed to the mission. That’s fine; that I understand. But when you get into the motives and the ill will of the people, that’s where it goes a little too far.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm. Right. The difference between unintentional or passive action and then direct action.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about what it was like in the early ‘70s to actually—to physically get to Hanford from Washington, DC. Was it still very—was travel still kind of tough to get to Hanford? Or was there easy air travel or car travel? Or did you find it to be a little still off the beaten path?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, it was a lengthy trip. Coming from Washington, DC, I would fly from Washington, DC to Chicago, Chicago to Seattle, then Seattle to Pasco. And usually that was like going United, and then I think there was—it was called Airwest—Hughes Airwest, owned by Howard Hughes. Then it did get significantly easier later on when Northwest Airlines had a direct flight from Dulles Airport in DC to Seattle, and then you’d fly back over here. I always used to enjoy those trips. I mean, air travel was a lot different then than it was now in that it wasn’t as—a chore and the like. It was a little bit more creature comforts in traveling as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: When you mentioned NEPA and the need for the EIS, Environmental Impact Statement, and digging at Z-9 and I’m sure probably a couple other facilities—did that also trigger any kind of cultural resources work, archaeological digs? Were there ever any—was there any cultural resources work or things found?</p>
<p>Lawrence: In the ‘70s, no. I mean, that work was right in the middle of the 200 Area. Which is—it still today is the most concentrated area. I believe, if I recall correctly, the EISs probably said—would address that. But not—I mean, EISs then were maybe 100 pages long. Now they’re—[LAUGHTER]—multiple volumes and many thousands of pages long. But I wasn’t aware of any. I think the first real instance of dealing with Native Americans and their concerns was with a project we had on the center of the Site called the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, or BWIP, which was on Gable--</p>
<p>Franklin: I was going to ask you about that next.</p>
<p>Lawrence: --which was on Gable Mountain. But I’ll let you ask about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, no, I was going to ask if you—you talked about the Nuclear Waste Policy Act and finding a geological repository. And I was just going to ask, I assume that’s BWIP, then, that is the—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, and, actually there’s a slight difference there. But the whole idea of the geologic repository, especially since I had been responsible for that program before coming here, led people to suspect or conclude that it was a foregone conclusion that Hanford was going to be named the geologic repository for the United States. And actually, when I came here, that Nuclear Waste Policy Act had set out a process for narrowing down until you had three sites that you would thoroughly characterize. We had gone from nine sites to five, and when I came out here, there were five sites under consideration. Once I was here, it was narrowed down to the three finalists, if you will: Hanford for basalt, Nevada for tuffs—that’s the Yucca Mountain Site—and in Texas there was a salt formation called Deaf Smith County. And so that was being looked at. Now, BWIP itself was not the geologic repository site. It was a test facility built into Gable Mountain—and Gable Mountain, of course, rises up and the geologic repository was going to go down several thousand feet. But it allowed the scientists to put heaters into basalt rock to see how the rock responded to it—expansion, contraction, did it attract water, was it pushed away, and the like. It was actually a quite successful project. We learned quite a bit about how basalt rock would interact. However—getting back to the cultural resources—during that period, we also found out that the Native Americans—the Yakamas, I believe—used to use Gable Mountain for vision-quest-type activities and places to send people on a spiritual adventure. This didn’t happen right away, but we finally worked out—because I saw no reason why we couldn’t—with a day’s notice, we let the Yakamas—we said, we will let you come on and go up to the site, and do whatever ceremonies, to do whatever you want to do. We just need to know about it. Obviously there is physical security and there’s safety we had to provide for them. But I think we were able to work out and arrangement with the Yakamas where they would have access. Perhaps not as freely as they would like, but it did allow some compromise to be worked out so they could still perform some of their religious ceremonies there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. So you came—you arrived in July 1984, you said. And that was kind of—that was under this Reagan era mandate of basically restarting production.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because it had just been N Reactor through most of the ‘70s, correct, and into the early ‘80s. So I’m wondering if you can just elaborate more on that mission and some of the activities needed and the push back—if there was any push back—and the whole thing.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, there was opposition, particularly on the west side and in Portland to restarting plutonium production facilities. While N Reactor had continued to operate, the fuel had not been processed and plutonium had not been recovered in many instances until PUREX started back up. So that was the process of really then getting back into plutonium production. That’s what was leading to opposition to what we were doing. We did the best we could to try to go around and to explain at least what we were doing, how we were doing it, how we would interact. I can recall going with my wife to a meeting up in Spokane. I just went up on a weekday night and the Hanford Education Action League had asked me to come up and talk to them. It was clear. It was clear then, that there was very, very strong opposition to what we were doing. A person I remember asked me the question, did I realize that I was acting just like Hitler? [LAUGHTER] I said, you know, I don’t think of it that way. I think about what I do very seriously, and I’m doing something that’s approved by and funded by the government of the United States of America, from the President and the Congress. I have to do it safely, and I have to do it in accordance with the law, but that’s what needs to be done. But, again, it was another effort to try to get out and at least be present, answer the questions; you may not make them happy, but at least you know you’re there trying to interact.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so how many facilities ended up being restarted or brought online from when you got here to when things were shut down? Maybe you could kind of walk me through that process.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, as I indicated, N Reactor had continued to operate, because N Reactor, unlike the other production reactors that were at Savannah River, was a dual purpose reactor. It not only produced plutonium in the fuel elements, but the water which passed through the reactors for cooling it was then sent over to a facility operated by the Washington Public Power Supply System to turn turbines and to produce electricity, on the order of a gigawatt of electricity a year. And because of that, we needed to—the cycle of the N Reactor was different than other production reactors: it was on a shorter cycle. That was for production reasons, the type of plutonium we were producing. So N Reactor went from producing what was fuel grade—it was called fuel grade plutonium—for reactor development programs like the Fast Flux Test Facility and ultimately would have been a breeder reactor. It went to making weapons grade, which meant much shorter irradiation periods. Also, prior to their restarting of PUREX, the fuel was just stored. With the starting of PUREX, you would then let the fuel cool in the basin at N Reactor then ship it in casks on rail cars to the center of the site at PUREX where it would be dissolved in PUREX. The waste would be sent to waste tanks, the plutonium concentrate in a liquid form would be sent to the Plutonium Finishing Plant over in the 200-West area, where it would then be converted into a plutonium metal button about the size of a tuna fish can. And that would be then sent to Colorado—Rocky Flats Plant—where it would actually be fashioned into the material used in a nuclear weapon. So it was the facilities associated with reprocessing at PUREX, handling waste from PUREX, and the facilities associated with the Plutonium Finishing Plant for converting the plutonium to metal that were the primary set of facilities that had to restart.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so then N Reactor was the only reactor that was operated during that time?</p>
<p>Lawrence: It was the only production reactor on the Hanford Site at that time. And the only reactor that was producing water that was—steam—that was then used to produce electricity. There was another very important reactor at Hanford that was operating then. It was called the Fast Flux Test Facility, which had just started operation a year or so before I got here. And that was to be a precursor of a commercial breeder reactor. The developmental—the reactor, the full-scale reactor that was going to demonstrate the breeder process was going to be built in Oak Ridge, Tennessee at the Clinch River Breeder Reactor. But they built the FFTF prior to that in order to get a feeling for how the sodium cooling worked, the fuel worked, the interactions. It was a prototype, if you will, to see just how that system was going to work. And quite frankly, the FFTF was a tremendously successful test reactor and developmental reactor for liquid sodium. It operated flawlessly, really. Unfortunately, though, it shut down because the breeder program was canceled and there really wasn’t a need for it. People tried diligently to find a mission, to find a need for it. But it was a—it just wasn’t in the cards, and it eventually—it took until the late 1990s for it to be permanently shut down. But that was the other reactor that was operating when I came out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Yeah, I’ve interviewed several other people that worked at FFTF, and they’ve all—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Oh, and they’re very enthusiastic about the FFTF. And I can understand it. It was a great reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and a reactor with kind of a different mission than any of Hanford’s other reactors.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yes, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Save maybe the N Reactor which had a dual—</p>
<p>Lawrence: No, it was very different. It didn’t have that plutonium production role.</p>
<p>Franklin: How long did the production go at Hanford—that ‘80s Reagan era production?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, in 1986, the reactor in Chernobyl blew up—April of 1986. That was in Ukraine, at Chernobyl. Of course, there was very little information coming out after the news of that explosion occurred. You couldn’t get in; the Soviets weren’t saying anything about it. But they couldn’t deny it, because you could detect the radiation coming. But people knew, generally, what type of reactor the Russians were operating there. It was graphite-moderated, water-cooled, and very quickly they came upon the fact that, wait a minute, there’s a graphite-moderated, water-cooled reactor operating in the US out of Hanford that’s called the N Reactor. So consequently, I believe it was in the first week of the Chernobyl accident, one afternoon—I guess it was a morning—in the lobby of the Federal Building, it was mayhem. There must have been 50 to 100 people, representatives from all of the television networks, the major newspapers and wire services—all there wanting to do a story on N Reactor, the Chernobyl of the United States. So I got on the phone to Washington, DC and I said, look, we’ve got a problem here. Because we had been told, do not talk to the press about this. This is one of the few times when I was manager here that we were ever given instructions from Washington about how to interact and how to manage the sites. The managers had much greater authority then than they do now. And there was only one manager here at that point in time, as opposed to three that they have now. So we had a lot of leeway, but we’d been told, don’t talk about it because it’s very sensitive; it’s international news and we’re concerned about it. So when I called and said we have this mob scene in the lobby all wanting to talk about and go see the N Reactor, they said, don’t talk to them. Don’t do anything. I got back on the phone and I said, look, there’s stories that are going to be coming out of here. They can either be based on fact or they can be based upon fiction. If they’re based upon fiction, it’s not going to be pretty. And it’s going to be inaccurate. And I said, look, I will not speculate at all on what happened at Chernobyl. I don’t know. I care, but I’m not going to say a thing about that. I just want to explain how N Reactor works and what its safety features are, so that they can see for themselves. So reluctantly but finally, they relented and said, okay, you can show them. Go take them out. So we got a big bus. We put everybody on the bus—it was multiple buses. And we went out to N Reactor. And as you know, that’s about an hour’s drive out. But they were chomping at the bit. And I can remember the look on their faces when they saw—I think they were expecting a little Quonset huts with steam rising out of vents and out of chimneys and all the rest. And when they see this massive building—and in fact we were able to open one of the doors, which was three feet thick of concrete and steel. They looked at that and they were kind of amazed. And I explained to them that although commercial reactors have a system called containment, which is a big steel dome, production reactors don’t. It’s called confinement. It’s different. So it leads to speculation. Well, you know, containment’s going to keep it in; confinement’s not going to do it. And I was pointing out how we had ways of safely venting steam and pressure so it wouldn’t build up, so it couldn’t explode. And we went through all the safety systems, showed them in the inside, the face of the reactor. And consequently, the next several days in <em>USA Today</em>—I mean, it was front page stuff. But at least it was based upon, well, you know, here are all these safety features. It still raised a lot of issues and concerns because nobody knew what caused Chernobyl, so how could we say it couldn’t happen here? We could only say, here are all the safety systems we have to prevent something like that from happening here. Now, ultimately, we found out over time, that what happened at Chernobyl was a physical characteristic called a positive void coefficient. But basically something that didn’t exist in the physics out at N Reactor. But the damage was done. We did need to do some safety upgrades at N Reactor, which we did. But ultimately, in 1988 I believe it was, the Secretary of Energy, John Harrington, in testifying before Congress announced that the US had now produced so much plutonium that we were in fact, quote, awash in plutonium and didn’t need to produce any more. And quite frankly, with that being the case, we no longer had a justification for operating N Reactor. And ultimately it was shut down. To this day, I applaud the hard work and dedication of all the people out at N Reactor. They worked on the safety upgrades and the operation of that reactor, they worked extremely hard and were very, very proud of the operation of that reactor. I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to those people. They did a great job.</p>
<p>Franklin: There’s several things that strike me as really interesting that I want to return to in what you just said about Chernobyl and N. One was one of the last things, that John Harrington, awash with plutonium; the US had produced enough. Did you agree with that statement then? That we were—because that would be, I mean, your boss or boss’s boss.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Quite frankly, I didn’t know what the total plutonium numbers were for the country. I didn’t know what the total demand was. I do know that plutonium has a very long half-life and sooner or later, you’ve got to have more than you need. We had thousands and thousands of nuclear warheads then. So, I mean, I didn’t know for sure, but I knew at some point we were going to reach it, and quite frankly felt we probably had overshot. So I did not disagree with Secretary Harrington on that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, because I mean, we had passed mutually assured destruction quite a long—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And I guess, we know a lot more now about our stockpile then than we did then. But it’s a very interesting way to phrase that. We’re awash in—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, I mean, it conjures up an image that you really don’t want to have.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to return to the Chernobyl thing. It strikes me as interesting that this reaction of don’t talk to the press, which is—you can understand in some way, because you don’t want misinformation. But isn’t that the same kind of criticism that we would level at the Soviets? That they were clamming up and not saying anything, and we wished that they were saying something? So this reaction to not say anything on our side is—could have been seen as—you know—being too controlling maybe perhaps?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I mean, it went against my instincts, but it’s understandable. The Soviets were the one who had the accident. Now, if we had had an accident and they said, don’t talk to them, I would have been incensed. But basically, we were just going along and people want to come in and try to write a story and say, you’re just like Chernobyl. Well, in a sense, we didn’t know what Chernobyl was, how could we have definitely refuted that? So I can understand their perspective, because, quite frankly, some people at other sites had been quoted by the press as saying, well, we think this is what happened at Chernobyl, or that happened at Chernobyl. And it was just—it was getting out of hand. So I understood that. That was—my point was, I’m not going to talk at all about Chernobyl, because I don’t know. I do know N Reactor. I do know how it works, and I do know its safety features; that’s all I’m going to talk about. And I was awfully glad they let me do it.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s good, yeah. I’m wondering if you could talk about—being in charge of the Site here, I’m wondering if you could talk about the effect of Chernobyl on employee morale at Hanford. Did you notice a particular change—what changed as a result of—</p>
<p>Lawrence: I really don’t think I saw any change in the behavior of the people here. They were going about their work. They knew the systems and the procedures and the processes they worked by, the protections that they were given. I’ll tell you candidly one thing that always bothered me then and it bothers me today, is that sometimes people, they get off work and they act somewhat cavalier or bravado about the work they do. Whether it’s to impress somebody or what, I don’t know. But they say, oh yeah, we deal with this. You know, handling it not as seriously as it needs to be. I know on the job, they do and they have to. But then like a macho reaction at the Gaslight Tavern or something like that talking about what they’re doing. That bothers me because it leaves a wrong impression with the public. And it’s certainly not the way we act onsite.</p>
<p>Franklin: I guess I’d like to maybe rephrase that question. Did you see like maybe a level of—or rise of kind of the fatigue of workers, maybe thinking that anti-nuclear folks or that there was a new public perception that this was really unsafe or that there was really an imminent danger at Hanford? Do you think that weighed on—did that weigh on you, or did that weigh on anybody else?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I think there was a sense on their part that there was an overreaction, that people were, in a way, paranoid and exaggerating the risk. They knew the risk. The people who work here know the risk. But they also know the precautions, so they can balance it out. And consequently, they felt like there was an overreaction. But even before Chernobyl occurred, there was an event that put the Site under somewhat of a microscope and an intense scrutiny, and that would have been, I believe it was September of 1985. Now, Chernobyl happened in April of ’86; this was September of 1985 on a Sunday, <em>The Spokesman Review</em> newspaper in Spokane came out with a multiday series on what they called the downwinders. Basically, they were interviewing and writing stories about an area across the Columbia River in Eltopia, Mesa, where farmers had experienced or felt they had experienced undue health effects—a number of health effects and cancers, and even some wildlife—some of their livestock being born with—there was reports of double heads and the like. And this was a major news piece done by a reporter called Karen Dorn Steele, and quite frankly she did an excellent job of researching this and writing it up. And I—you know, this is the first any of us had heard about this. That was on a Sunday-Monday. So, again, trying to engage on this topic, that Thursday, just several days after it had come out, we had a public meeting over at the Edwin Markham Middle School in Eltopia, across the river, with the public to say, we’re here. What are your concerns? This is—let us tell you what we’ve been able to measure and monitor, and you tell us what your concerns are. And I had some people from Battelle who—we put out an annual monitoring report saying, here are the releases, here are the quantities, here’s how they compare with standards and the like. It was somewhat emotional. You know, people are worried about their health and people dying of cancer and the like. But we also knew that we, in our numbers—we weren’t showing anything that should have resulted in something like that. During that meeting, one of the farmers who had been prominently noted in the article, his name was Tom Bailey, he actually got up and said, well, okay, we’re not saying that you’re doing that to us now, or that you’re intentionally doing anything now. But what happened in the past? What happened back in the ‘50s? When he said that, I realized that, although we had monitoring reports going back to the Manhattan Project—here’s what people were measuring and monitoring and releasing—most of those had been classified secret. And they had never been declassified. It wasn’t malicious; it’s just not a simple process to declassify a document. But I knew because of the extent of time involved, they could be. So, I then at that meeting said, you know, if you want to know, we can go back, we can review and declassify those documents and make them available so you can actually see what was being done. That seemed to both surprise but also satisfy. So we came back and started the process of declassifying monitoring reports going back to the mid-1940s. That is a time-consuming and expensive process. But we were doing it. And we were keeping the public—I used to have monthly press availabilities at the Federal Building and we’d talk about that. But we didn’t really have the first batch of documents, which was 19,000 pages deep, ready to release until February. Now, one thing I’d like to make very clear and to get on the record: we’re in the process of doing that—time-consuming and expensive—but in January, one month before we completed and released the documents, a Freedom of Information request was filed for those documents by an environmental group. I’m not certain of who it is, so I won’t say who it was. But it was an environmental group, filed a Freedom of Information request. And we said, wait a minute. We are releasing these; it’ll be ready next month—the first batch. The reason I raise that is because subsequently, to this day, I hear from time to time people say, you released those documents—they were forced out of you by the Freedom of Information request. And I say, that is just not true. We had—if you go and check the record, we had committed to doing that a long time before. Again, getting back to credibility—it was easy to make that charge. In fact, I had <em>National Geographic</em> call me about ten years ago checking a story and that specific point. Because they didn’t know if it was right or not and they were able to research it and confirm it. But anyway, we were able to release those documents. But when those documents came out—and this was a mistake on my part—there was a lot of information there, but where was the understanding? Where was the, if you want to call it, education of the public, so they could understand what they were reading? And very quickly, it was found that one of the monitoring reports from 1949 had talked about something called the Green Run, where fuel that had been cooled for shorter than normal, so there were radioactive elements in it, was dissolved and more radioactivity went up, intentionally, through the stack. Some of the background as to why that was done had to be deleted—because it was still classified. When this document—when that report was found and the Green Run was discussed, there was speculation that it was associated with human experimentation: let’s release it and see what happens to the public when it hits them. That was not the case at all. In fact, I knew from reading the documents, they had delayed the Green Run because unfavorable weather conditions that they thought might be harmful to the public. But nonetheless, since certain portions had to be deleted because of classification, we couldn’t really explain it to people. And that created quite an uproar. It’s normal and naturally you would expect people to think you’re trying to intentionally harm the public or experiment on the public. Ultimately, what we decided to do was that, even though we could not tell the public the intent of the Green Run, congressmen and senators from Washington and Oregon, by purpose of their position, have clearance and can be told. So I went back to Washington, DC with a person here from the lab and in a classified conference room in the rotunda of the US Capitol, we had the entire delegations from Washington and Oregon there, and we were able to explain to them the classified reason why the experiment was done and why it was still classified today. Tom Foley, who was later to become the Speaker of the House, from Spokane, more or less led the group. He appreciated it, but he pushed back. He says, I’ve got to have more to tell the public than that. I have to be able to tell them whether we know, but we can’t tell you. You’ve got to give me a little bit to tell them as to why it’s so classified. So I was able to get on the phone, again, back to the department, talk to them about it. And ultimately we were able to explain that the reason it was done was to allow the US government to improve their methods for determining and detecting what the Soviet Union was doing with their production program. Ultimately, it became known, if you measure the iodine and the cesium, you could cut back and see what they’re producing. And the reason it was still classified was that we were still, back in 1986, using that technique for nuclear non-proliferation detection around the world. So it’s since been declassified, but that was the reason. I felt that was a good use of our government and our representatives to represent the people and be able to explain to the people what was going on. But ultimately that whole—all those documents led us to create something called the Northwest Citizens Forum for Defense Waste, which was 25 individuals picked from a broad cross-section: academia, industry, church leaders—to be given the information and to be briefed on the information and ask and have answers provided for any questions they have. So they could act as the public’s representatives on what was being done. And that ultimately turned into all of the citizens’ groups that are formed at the DOE sites now. Where you have—here it’s called the HAB, the Hanford Advisory Board. But it was the first ever citizens’ group to oversee and look at what was going on at the DOE sites.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you for that. That’s really illuminating. Wasn’t it still a calculated risk, though? Sorry, the Green Run, the actual action itself. Certainly there’s still, I think, in the mind of a lot of people—even though it may have been check the release to see how much the Soviets were releasing, there still is a real calculated risk, though. Or do you think that there’s still a calculated risk there—that there could have been some environmental or human population damage resulting from a higher-than-average—or kind of breaking protocol that was set to release that much contaminate?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, based on what I was able to look at and the rationale and how it was done, they were doing it at levels such that it would be a fraction of what the public was allowed to be exposed to. Even with that higher amount. It would just be a fraction. And that’s why when weather conditions weren’t right, and they felt it would rise above that, they didn’t do it. There are always risks. And were the standards that they were a fraction of, were they right, were they wrong, were they conservative, were they not strong enough? I mean, hindsight, you can go back and ask all those questions. But based upon the knowledge that they had at the time, they were being conservative. That also happened to be at the time when we were doing atmospheric testing at the Nevada Test Site. And you’re setting off nuclear bombs that people are going out and watching, you know, maybe 20 miles away. I’m not saying that’s right, and we know now it was wrong. But it was a fraction of the exposure that might have existed there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. I get—yes. That’s very true and that’s a good point. I guess it just—the only thing that still strikes, at least in my mind, as a difference is that they’re informing the public about the nuclear bombs so people can go and watch them. Whereas the Green Run was kind of this—I think that maybe—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, it was secret. No.</p>
<p>Franklin: It came out after the fact. And it was like, what else could these guys be hiding? Because, like you said, there was already that level of mistrust there.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: It just seems like that event can never really shake that level of mistrust in some ways with some people.</p>
<p>Lawrence: In hindsight, that’s true, but it was a very different time. A very different time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of course. That’s just an interesting legacy. So, thank you for covering Chernobyl so much. I just have one more question. What role did Hanford play in assisting the Soviets—Hanford and Battelle play in assisting the Soviets with Chernobyl? Wasn’t there a team—</p>
<p>Lawrence: None at the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: --that went over?</p>
<p>Lawrence: None at the time. The Soviets didn’t ask for any. Ultimately, and actually when I came back to the Tri-Cities in 1999 and eventually started working for the Pacific Northwest National Lab, under my responsibility was the team we had at Chernobyl helping to build the new sarcophagus, the confinement structure, that now has been completed and rolled over the destroyed reactor. And I’ve been to Chernobyl a number of times and visited on that project. So we were involved in that. But I don’t recall us being asked to provide any assistance or having provided any assistance at that point in time.</p>
<p>Franklin: I was wondering—I’d like to—Chernobyl made me think of another incident, maybe hop back in time real quick and get your perceptions on that. You weren’t here, but I know you were still working in the nuclear industry, and I’m wondering maybe if you’re going to guess what I’m going to ask about, but I’m wondering, in the late ‘70s, the Three Mile Island scare. I’m wondering if you—because you were not here at the time of Three Mile Island, right, you would have been back east. But I’m wondering if you could talk about the legacy of that incident and how that affected people’s perceptions of nuclear—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Oh, it affected everybody’s perceptions of nuclear because—everyone in the nuclear industry had gotten a little sloppy, implying an accident cannot happen, it will not happen. You know, we’ve got all these precautions; the risk is so small, they’re non-existent. Well, nothing is non-existent. Everything is a risk, and if enough things go wrong, yes, you can have a problem. And they certainly had it there. Much more serious than they ever expected it to be. But in hindsight, the fact of the matter is, the systems all worked to contain it. There were never any releases harmful to the public. There was never a single fatality or anything associated with the Three Mile Island accident. I can remember exactly where I was when I heard about it. I was getting ready to go take a run at lunchtime in the AEC—or it would have been a DOE at that time—building. And someone said, hey, did you hear they had some reactor incident going on up in Pennsylvania? You know, it started then and several days later I was getting calls from good friends who we were godparents of their child who lived in Hershey saying, should we evacuate? And I said, follow what the governor says. I really don’t have any firsthand knowledge, but it really did shake people’s fears, because it led people to say, you said it couldn’t happen and it did. And that’s always a problem.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s such a tough issue of framing, though, right? Because you can either say, well, it could happen but we have really good safeguards so it probably won’t, which leaves open the door in people’s minds to something happening. Or you can say, well, it won’t, we’ve got this under control and it won’t happen. How do you frame—framing disaster seems to be a very tricky subject. Or framing the possibility of disaster.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah. In part, because you can say, just looking at risk and probability, you can say you’re more likely to be hit by lightning than to die from this. And you’re willing to accept one but not the other. It’s what people are associated with. And if they think, I don’t have to deal with that, I don’t even want to deal with that minimal risk. I just don’t want to do it. That’s understandable; it’s part of human nature.</p>
<p>Franklin: It kind of comes to, we see this a lot in current day in dealing with—well, won’t go into that. But there seems to be a—there’s these fact-based arguments but they can’t always counter the emotion-based arguments. And a lot of the response to nuclear seems, in some cases to be emotionally-based and not fact—and immune, almost inoculated against the factual side of it. Which seems to bother many who have a lot of intimate knowledge, a lot of people who worked at Hanford who know the risks can’t ever seem to communicate that to the critics. I wonder if you could expand on that at all, being someone who would have been trying to communicate that to critics of Hanford. And how you’ve dealt with that fact-versus-emotion in your career.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well you see it—you still see it today. Fukushima is an excellent example of that. Assist you with the nuclear accident first. That tidal wave hits, completely washes over, and the plant loses all power. Now, most importantly that was an avoidable accident. Even as hugely severe as a tsunami was, if they just had have had the secondary generators higher and separated more from the plant, they wouldn’t have lost power, and the reactors would have been fine. In this country, we have that requirement. They didn’t have it there. So that reactor accident, which was catastrophic, it was devastating, could have been prevented if rules that we have here had have been used there. But the other thing—and this is more to the point you made—18,000 people were killed by the tsunami, by the flood, by all of the devastation caused by the tsunami. None were caused by the nuclear accident. And yet all of the attention is on the nuclear accident. And it’s not like, oh, but there’ll be 18,000 in the future—there won’t. You know, looking at the numbers, it’s hard to say if there’ll be any. And people are evacuated now, when perhaps they don’t even need to be, but it’s out of the fear of whatever’s left there. And consequently, because of that, it’s causing stress that have led to heart attacks and have led to fatalities. Are they caused by the nuke—they’re not caused by radiation, but they’re caused by fear of radiation or caused by fear of the displacement. So how do you put that in perspective, where as a nuclear accident has gotten all the attention, but a tsunami that killed 18,000 people, it’s sort of like, well, that’s an act of nature? And so, I really don’t know how to balance that. I do know that on <em>NOVA</em> last month, they had a very good show about that. Because nuclear is a carbon-free source of baseload electricity, and if we’re going to deal with climate change, I know I believe and many people believe nuclear has to be part of the solution.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I would personally agree with you. I wondered—so, moving past Chernobyl then, you mentioned that as kind of a major—you know, it definitely is a major event in regards to people’s perceptions of Hanford. And you mentioned in ’88 this—awash in plutonium. How did it play out after that? What was the drawdown like? What happened in the community when that—when it was realized that Hanford was—the mission was going to change?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, you know, there was fear, because Hanford—the Tri-Cities over time, going back to the ‘50s and ‘60s had gone through booms and busts. And whenever Hanford production was up, the community was good; whenever it was down, homes were for sale, property values dropped and all the rest. So there was a feel, that was going to continue. And if N Reactor was shutting down, PUREX was down, it was going to happen to have a devastating effect on the economy again. Of course, what also happened at the same time was the commitment to the cleanup mission and the negotiation in signing the Tri-Party Agreement, which led to the cleanup mission here, which has continued and kept levels and funding levels right up to where they were and actually higher than in the production days. Maybe not employment necessarily, but it’s close. But also the Tri-Cities has significantly diversified from Hanford. Still very much—we get through $3 billion a year from the federal government between the Site and the national lab in this community, and that’s got huge benefits. But we’ve diversified quite a bit. But, getting to the Tri-Party Agreement, that was a direct result of a legal decision in Tennessee in 1985 that said that Department of Energy sites had to comply with national and state environmental rules. Up until that time, it had been assumed that the Atomic Energy Act, that the department operated under absolved us from that, or we did not have to do that. When that ruling came down, ultimately, it led to getting together with federal regulators in the form of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and state regulators in the form of the Department of Ecology, to find out, okay, where are we in violation, what do we need to change, and how do we do that? You don’t do it instantaneously. Which, obviously, is clear. And that led to the negotiation and the ultimate signing in May of—May 15<sup>th</sup> of 1989 of the Tri-Party Agreement. But that has provided a rather steady employment, funding, and—you know, I realize it’s taking longer than people thought, it’s costing more than people thought. And fortunately, it’s not an urgent—it’s not the type of crisis where something has to be done immediately or here’s the catastrophic result. It’s a problem in slow motion that the main thing you want to do is get the solution right the first time. You don’t want to go hot with the Vit Plant and then find out it doesn’t work. Because you’ll never—you won’t get around to it again. So let’s make sure we’ve got it right. It’s been an enduring process, and I’m very pleased and proud of the enduring capabilities of the Tri-Party Agreement.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was your role in the negotiation and signing of the Tri-Party Agreement?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, we—the Richland Operations Office had the responsibility and role of negotiating with EPA Region 10 and the Department of Ecology for what the cleanup agreement would look like and what it would entail. And we kept Washington, DC informed of what we were doing and we’d get feedback from them. But it was our main responsibility to do that. Initially a person by the name of Jerry White and then ultimately Ron Izatt who worked for me as division directors had that responsibility of negotiating. And they would brief me every other day and we would get involved. From time to time, I would have discussions with the head of ecology who was Chris Gregoire, who subsequently became governor of the state, on issues that they would rise to our level. Or with Robie Russell, who was the head of EPA regionally, on issues that would come up. But we eventually worked out, basically, the agreement: this would be done and this was the timeframe for doing it. Then it came time to saying, okay, this is what we’ve got. It was in December of 1978 when we had pretty much wrapped everything up.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sorry—’88?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I’m sorry. ’88, yes, I’m sorry. December of ’88. So I went over to Lacey near Olympia where Ecology is located, to meet with Chris Gregoire and her team, and I had Ron Izatt and a lawyer from our team, to talk about what we were going to do. And at that meeting—it was a Friday afternoon—they said, okay, what we want to do now is we want to take this to a court and have a judge bless it, make it law: this is what has to be done. And we couldn’t go along with that, and the reason was that the lawyer for the federal government is the Department of Justice. And anytime you go to court as a US government agency, the Department of Justice represents you. They do not believe in friendly settlements. They will fight everything. I don’t mean that to be critical; that’s just the approach they take. And I said to her, I said, Chris, if you insist on taking this to court, we, the Department of Energy and I, lose all ability to deal with this, and it goes into the hands of lawyers who get paid to fight it. And you’re going to win. You’ve got the law on your side. But it’s going to be two, three years from now at great expense. I said, why don’t we just sign it as an agreement, shake hands on it, and you wait for us to violate it, and then take us to court. And she—we went back and forth on that issue. EPA, by the way, had stepped back and said, if you two can reach agreement, we’ll go along with anything that you say. Because they knew we had the tough issues. And so finally, you know, she said, no, we need it in court. These were her instructions, or this is where the governor wanted to go. And I said, well, Chris, can we take this to the governor? And, fortunately, through my tenure here, I had wonderful relations, a great respect for Governor Booth Gardner, who was the governor at that time. And she said, sure, we can take it to him. Subsequently, the following Friday I went over by myself with her and we met with Governor Gardner in his office in Olympia in the state capitol. And I went through the message of, you know, I don’t have the authority to sign this in court. If it goes to court, Justice will fight it, you’ll win, but it will be two years from now or whatever. Didn’t sway the governor. You know, it was clear: no, we want this—we want the law behind it and make it in a court of law. I must have said the same thing three times. Always slightly different. Maybe I warmed him, I don’t know what. But finally the governor looked at Chris and said, well, Chris, could you live with it as an agreement until if and when they fail to live up to it and then go to court? And she said, you know, Governor, if you can, I can. And the governor says, okay, that’s what we’ll do. And so it was an act of faith and it worked for a long time before it ended up in court. But we would not have had the Tri-Party Agreement when we did in the manner in which we did without his willingness and her willingness to concede on that point and let us move on with it.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so when the Tri-Party Agreement was established, what did that lay out for the future of Hanford?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Basically, it took the entire Site and all the areas in which we were in non-compliance, whether it was currently operating sites—even though the plant wasn’t operating, there were still facilities that were operating that fell under the state, or old sites which fell under EPA. All of those things, and when they would be cleaned up, the schedule and process for doing it. And that’s what it laid out. It also laid out, like, the ability to modify the agreement as you went forward. Because the simple fact was, we were operating with nowhere near the degree of knowledge and specificity you would need to have hard-and-fast deadlines. And the other thing was, we didn’t know, and we still don’t know today, what the funding will be year to year. Okay, or problems that will come up. But there was a process in there to move with it and to let it happen. And that was, I think, one of the best features of the Tri-Party Agreement. And it required parties to act in good faith. And I’m pleased it did.</p>
<p>Franklin: Excellent. Was there anything in there about any of the history at Hanford or preserving any of the historic activity at Hanford, whether—keeping buildings there or documenting the history in some way, or saving equipment or anything used in the process?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Not really, no. I mean, this was all compliance. This was an enforcement order. But we did make sure that B Reactor was going to be one of the last things to be—actually, originally, they wanted all of the reactors out on the Site by the rivers to be decontaminated as best they could, and then they wanted to dig under the reactors, bring in the big crawlers they use at Cape Canaveral to move missiles, put it under there, lift up the block, and take it to the center of the Site. And I thought, oh, my good—and that was to be done early in the process. And we said, let’s move that ‘til about 25 years from now. Of course, subsequently they’ve learned how to cocoon and maybe that’ll be found to be good enough. But, I mean, that was—we didn’t have the level of specificity or knowledge or information that you need to do a good cleanup then as we do now.</p>
<p>Franklin: I know that the B Reactor Museum Association was founded in the early ‘90s, but were there whispers then when you were signing that agreement or afterwards about saving B Reactor or saving something onsite as kind of a testament to the production at Hanford?</p>
<p>Lawrence: There very well may have been. I just—I wasn’t cognizant of it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. So when did you leave working at the Richland office?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I left in July of 1990.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so you were—and why did you leave? Where did you go after?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, in part, I went to work for a company in Colorado that was doing cleanup work. But I was only there less than a year when the state department offered me a diplomatic post in Vienna, Austria. Because that was right after the first Gulf War, when they discovered that the Iraqis had a clandestine nuclear program, and they wanted the International Atomic Energy Agency, who was supposed to monitor things like that, to become stronger and more efficient and effective. And the State Department decided that they wanted a person with technical knowledge and ability but who also had had some international experience, which I had in the ‘70s under a Carter program doing international negotiations. So they called me up and I went to Vienna, then, to do that. I left here, one, because the managers’ authorities had been greatly, greatly reduced.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that a result of the Tri-Party Agreement, or just from the shift or production to cleanup?</p>
<p>Lawrence: In part, it was due to the Tri-Party Agreement in that as we were negotiating the Tri-Party Agreement—we had the responsibility for doing that here, but kept Washington informed of our activities and getting their agreement as we went along. And right after those meetings that I told you about with Chris Gregoire and Governor Gardner, that was in December. In January of that year, a new Secretary of Energy was coming in. Admiral Watkins had been appointed to be the Secretary of Energy. So he was transitioning in, and there was an acting secretary. Her name was Donna Fitzpatrick, who was interacting with him as this transition occurred. Acting Secretary Fitzpatrick—they all knew what we were doing here. But as it happens, the agreement was formally signed in May 15<sup>th</sup>, 1989. But three months prior to that—what would that have been, February—is when—you have to give a three-month notice before you do something like that, for public comment and the like. As it turns out, everyone was so pleased with coming to agreement that the announcement of agreement was made in the rotunda of the Capitol in Washington, DC. Governor Gardner was there, I was there, representatives of DC and the Department were there, EPA were there, and it was announced we had reached agreement and it would be signed in three months in May. You know, after the formal comment period and any changes that had to occur. Well, in the normal question-and-answer period that went on, with that announcement, the State said, this is going to be commit the government to be spending $25 billion for the cleanup of Hanford. Now, it just so happened that the very next day was Admiral Watkins’ first day as Secretary of Energy. During that first day, he was to meet with all of the site managers, including myself. That morning, when it appeared in the paper that Washington State says it’s committed to paying $25 billion—whatever that means—the Office of Management and Budget, which, evidently had been left in the dark—I don’t know. I had no responsibility to inform them. They called him up and said, what in the world’s going on over there? What are you doing committing us to $25 billion? We go into the meeting with the new secretary. And he proceeded to just chew me up and chew me down as to, this is the worst thing we’ve ever done, how could we be so bad and stupid, and all this other stuff. And I just sat there, and—you know, you can’t push back, really. You just think—and unfortunately, the former acting secretary, Donna Fitzpatrick was sitting next to him. She knew all about it, but she couldn’t do anything. And it really just set a very bad tone with the secretary. Subsequently, however, as the kudos started coming in about what a good agreement this was and how it showed good cooperation and compliance by the Department, Admiral Watkins was very happy to take the credit for the Tri-Party Agreement. But life was a little uncomfortable out here. And I decided then I was going to be leaving. But I didn’t want to leave in the first year, because I wanted to make sure the Tri-Party Agreement got off to a good start. So, subsequently when I did leave, a lot of it was about the fact that it just wasn’t the same job. And quite frankly, a very important tenet of any management job is never accept responsibility that you don’t have the authority to fulfill. If you don’t have the authority, but have the responsibility, it just doesn’t work. And I didn’t, and I left.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. How did you come back to the area?</p>
<p>Lawrence: That’s an interesting story as well. After I left Vienna in 1985, I was hired by—</p>
<p>Franklin: Sorry, you mean 1995.</p>
<p>Lawrence: ’95, I’m sorry, yeah, I have my years mixed. 1995. I went to work for a company called BNFL, which stands for British Nuclear Fuels, Limited. And they had bought a company in Los Alamos, New Mexico and they asked me to be president of it. I was running the company, and then they subsequently asked me to move back to their Washington, DC headquarters for their US operations as the chief operating officer, which I did. But that was also the same time when BNFL had gotten the contract to design the Vitrification Plant for the Hanford Site. And they had brought in engineers and managers from the UK to head up that project here in the Tri-Cities. So, I’ve gone back to Washington, DC as the chief operating officer of BNFL, Inc., which is the US component. And shortly—not so long after it—I was there less than a year—the manager of the project in Richland came back. And they had signed an agreement of what they were going to do and the government was going along with it. It was basically, for $6.5 billion they would build and operate the plant and process the first so many million gallons of waste, for $6.5 billion. When that manager came back, he indicated—he said, you know—he’s British; I’m not going to do a British accent—but he said, you know, I really—I’m not fitting in well with the community. I just don’t understand those people out there. I don’t fit in well with the community. We need somebody out there who understands things. Well, I love this community. I know this community. They were very, very good to me and my family when we were here. So I raised my hand and said, I know those people. This was our biggest project by far for our company, I’d be willing to go out and head up the project. And so subsequently, I came out to head up the Vit Plant. Within a week of getting here, I had to go and report to the new Office of River Protection, which had responsibility for it, what the status was of our cost estimates. I had only been here a week, so they give me the numbers. And I asked the—are they aware of this? Yeah, they’re aware of this. So I went in and, oh, all hell broke loose. Because the number—it had risen. It was higher than 6.5. And Dick French, who was the head of the project, rightly so, says, I can’t—this is terrible. Your first report—and it’s over budget already. And I knew Dick, and I understood his position. And basically, I said, let me go back and find out what’s going on. I was told you were on board with this. You obviously are not. Let me find out. I subsequently found out that there had been an arbitrary 20% cut in their estimates, thinking they were just going to drive things harder and shave things off and make it cheaper. And I had a—obviously, I had a major problem with this. Because in the beginning, you don’t shave back. You have contingency that’s built in and you work off. It doesn’t work the other way. And so I’d moved back here, we bought a house, I’m running the—and this project is going downhill quick. What was worse was that I tried to tell BNFL, we need to go to the Department and say, this number, $6.5 billion, for the plant and operations of it is not going to work. We need to renegotiate. We need to do something different. And I got nothing but pushback. We would not do this. And I was even—I said, you know, if we don’t do something, we’re going to be fired. And they said, they can’t fire us. They’re not going to fire us. And I said, I’m sorry, I said, I can’t continue to operate like that. So I resigned. Resigned from the project. Didn’t have another job, but I figured, I’ll find something. But I can’t continue with this. And within two months, Secretary Richardson had fired BNFL. Fortunately, a couple months after that, Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Lab hired me to run their nuclear programs. That’s how I came back, and that’s how I spent my first two years back. As managing a dying project and then transitioning to a new job.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did you work at PNNL?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I worked from 2000 up until 2008. And during that period, I had responsibility—I was the associate lab director for energy. But in the latter part of that timeframe, I was also deputy lab director for facilities and was responsible for the putting together and funding and getting approved the new—they called it a consolidated lab—facilities that are just north of Horn Rapids Road and two private facilities that are on the campus. And then Battelle asked if I’d be willing to lead a team to manage the national nuclear lab in the United Kingdom. They had put together a team with two other companies to do that. And I said I’d be willing to do that. I had spent time in Europe already. And I went over and subsequently we won the contract in the early 2009. So in 2009 and ’10, I was the director of the national nuclear lab in the UK. And then I retired and came back and retired here in West Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, great. Well, thank you so much, Mike. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d like to talk about?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I’d like to get on record that I’ve been very, very fortunate in my life to hold some very interesting positions and to work for some phenomenal people. But the job that I enjoyed the most was as manager of the Richland Operations Office. There was a spirit, a camaraderie, a support, a community spirit that I felt there that I’ve just—as much as I’ve enjoyed my other jobs, nothing quite as good as that. It was really, really enjoyable, and aside from my wife and family, probably there was nothing better that had ever happened to us than to move to this area and be involved in these activities. I’ve really enjoyed it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for coming in today.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Okay, very good. Thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right, yeah.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Thanks.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. That was a great--<br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/SiYN7OCJOAs">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:23:14
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
B Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
N Reactor
Vitrification Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1972-1990
2000-2007
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1972-1990
2000-2007
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Donald Hodel
William Skylstad
Paul Lorenzini
Howard Hughes
John Harrington
Karen Dorn Steele
Jerry White
Ron Izatt
Chris Gregoire
Robie Russell
Carter
Governor Gardner
Donna Fitzpatrick
Admiral Watkins
Dick French
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Michael Lawrence
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Michael Lawrence conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
02-01-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
200 Area
Atomic Energy Commission
B Reactor
B Reactor Museum Association
Battelle
Cat
ceremonies
Dam
Department of Energy
Fast Flux Test Facility
Hanford
Kennewick
Los Alamo
Los Alamos
Manhattan Project
Mountain
N Reactor
Plutonium
Plutonium Finishing Plant
PUREX
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Road
Savannah River
School
Sun
VIT Plant
Vitrification Plant
War
Washington Public Power Supply System