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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Ferguson
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Robert Ferguson on December 21<sup>st</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Bob Ferguson: Yes. Robert, R-O-B-E-R-T. Louis, L-O-U-I-S. Ferguson, F-E-R-G-U-S-O-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great, thanks. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work at the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I was in the Army. I had spent three years in the Army and I was at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. And a friend of mine stopped by that was sort of at the end of my obligation, and his father had worked here. His name was Fred Boleros. And he told me about GE here at Hanford. So, it was my first job when I applied when I left the Army, was with GE at Hanford. They accepted my application, and that’s how I happened to come to Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what was the job that you applied for?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I came under a program called the—[LAUGHTER]—bear with me.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Can you cut, can we cut, or you’ll cut?</p>
<p>Franklin: We can edit.</p>
<p>Ferguson: We’ll edit?</p>
<p>Franklin: After the fact, yes.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay.</p>
<p>Emma Rice: Tech grad something?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Yeah. The tech grad program. It was the tech grad program. It was a program to—for GE to find out what your interest was as well as their interest in you. So, anyway, I signed up for that, and I had three assignments with that. One in operation, one in reactor physics, and one in radiation testing. My permanent job—my first permanent job with GE was as a reactor physicist at C Reactor. But we did physics work—at each of the reactors, there was an onsite physicist and an onsite engineer. We rotated to all of the different eight reactors in the course of our assignments during relief work. But I was permanently assigned to C Reactor—C Reactor Physicist.</p>
<p>Franklin: C Reactor?</p>
<p>Ferguson: C Reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and where is that located in relation to B, D and F?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, as you probably know, the first reactors were B, D and F. And then HDR and then H, and then C Reactor in K-East and K-West. So C Reactor was one of the newer reactors, before the K-East and K-West design. And it was collocated with B Reactor in what was called the BC Area. They were right next door to each other.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And was that based off of the same design as the B Reactor?</p>
<p>Ferguson: It was a different design. Higher power level and a little different fuel design. And because it had a higher power level, it had also a higher flow rate.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of water?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Of water, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. And how long did you work as a reactor operator?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Physicist.</p>
<p>Franklin: Reactor physicist, sorry.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. Well, actually I was asked—I guess because of my interest in operation—I was asked by GE management to go into their management program, which was an accelerated management program. And so that took me into operations. And so to accelerate the learning process, they had a school in the evening that they sent us to. But also, we had supplemental crews. For each of the shifts, there was a supplemental crew that went from each of the reactors, in the case of outages or in the case of startups, where they needed extra people. So you learned in the supplemental crews, all of the operation of all of the reactors in a very short period of time. So from there, then, I was assigned as a shift supervisor at B Reactor. So I was an operating supervisor at B Reactor. In fact, I was the youngest of shift supervisor that GE had at the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. Where were the classes held for the management program?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, there were two kinds of classes. There were—WSU had—actually there were—WSU and some of the other western universities had a program here. But they were technical programs, and then GE in the same facilities, in what—the old barracks area, near where the DOE headquarters is now, the RL headquarters, in that area. But they no longer exist. They were in huts.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, Quonset huts.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Quonset huts, yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: World War II—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Had you gone through any other—before you took the tech grad program with GE, had you had any training in nuclear physics or anything?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I had a degree in physics, and I’d also spent a year at Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville, Alabama in guided missiles. So, there was a lot of related work in the guided missile field to the nuclear field as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: And were you in the Army because of the Korean War?</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, I went into the Army from—I was graduated. Went to Gonzaga University and graduated in ROTC, and had a commission. And because I signed up for the guided missile program, I had a three-year commitment then, rather than just two years of active duty.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But it was—we were on alert in my junior year of the Korean War. And then the Korean War, fortunately, was over in my last year. So, I was able to miss that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. Can you describe the B Reactor as a place to work?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it was—actually, a fascinating facility. I don’t know, perhaps, if you’ve been there.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve been able to take the public tours.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But the operation of the reactors were fascinating. You can picture that there’s eight reactors operating 24/7, seven days a week. At that time, there was pressure for more plutonium for the Cold War. It was during that period of time when there was a lot of tension with Russia. It preceded, actually, the Cuban Missile Crisis by a few years. But anyway, there was intense pressure for production, so we were—GE was very sensitive about the time operating efficiency of the reactors and the power level of the reactors. B Reactor, when it was first designed was designed for 250 megawatts. And when I was last in the control room, we were operating over 2,000 megawatts. We used to—in order to get more power, we used to—Bonneville would lower water from under the dams so our inlet temperature was lower. The operation of the reactors—they went once through the reactors, and so they had to keep the outlet temperature below boiling. And so you wanted the maximum delta <em>t</em> across the reactor, you could get so the lower the inlet temperature, the higher the power level you could get, maintaining a safe margin in the outlet temperature. But also at that time, we were experimenting—I participated both in the physics side as well as the operations side—in the use of flattening of the pile. And by flattening, I mean flattening the flux so you could get more power level, or better distribution and more production, in any one cycle. And so we used—we experimented with splines, which were boron designed things that would go under the process tubes, and you could jack them in actually from the front face of the reactor in order to flatten the flux of the reactors. We also did poisoning at that time of the reactor. A temporary poisoning, so we could start the reactors up at a higher power level. Because the operation of the reactors was very complicated, because you had different temperature coefficients that affected the reactivity of the reactor. So you had a positive graphite temperature, but that was—the graphite would heat up over time. And so that would increase the reactivity, and you had a negative temperature coefficient—fast reactor coefficient. And then the coefficients would change as the amount of plutonium occurred in the reactor. And so the operation of the reactors were really dictated by the design coefficients, but, more importantly, by the discovery of xenon and iodine, which shut the reactors down when Fermi was here. That was—they didn’t even know about the xenon absorption of neutrons at that time. And so when the reactor was first started, it shut down. And they had originally—perhaps you’ve heard this story, that originally the reactor was designed for about 1,500 process tubes. But then DuPont doubled it to 2,004 in order to—for safety margins—and they needed all of that safety margins to override the xenon. But anyway, when you’re at steady state operation, and then you shut the reactor down, then the buildup of iodine that then decays into xenon, and xenon is a poison. So if you were operating at full power and the reactor scrammed, you had a very short period of time in order to bring the reactor up to power level. Otherwise, you were down for 30-hour outage. So that meant that you lost production during that period. So we basically devised what we called quickie plans. This was especially true—we were experiencing a lot of ruptures at that time because we were pushing the envelope of the design of the fuel. It would rupture, and then we’d have to get rid of that, because they’d been once through on the water, the radioactive material would go directly into the river. So anyway, when we had a rupture, we would need to get it out of the reactor. But you only had a few minutes. At that time because of the power levels we were operating at, we only had about 15 minutes to recover. And that meant planning a crew in the rear and the front, and alerting the people in the powerhouse, because you had to bring the water pressure down. But you had to keep plenty of water on the tubes, because otherwise the temperature—outlet temperature would be very high. So you had a very difficult time to valve on the front. So I would go—I would basically stay in the control room and have a supervisor in the front and rear. And then when we shut the reactor down, we would do all of this valving, kick the rupture out, and then restart. And you’d have to restart the reactors to about two-thirds of the power that you were at, otherwise you’d go sub-critical, and you’d be down. So it was a very delicate challenge to start it up to a power level that you could—without running out of rods, then, because also the higher power level, the more reactivity you had. So, it was a—it’s something that I learned in physics, because that’s what the physicist did. He calculated all these transients. So when I went into operations, it was sort of natural for me to be able to manage this kind of thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. And so—that’s also, like, kind of real-world application of all of that physics that you had learned, right?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: How did—I think it’s hard for people who—especially younger people—to imagine doing all of that without digital technology. It’s always been something that’s really fascinated me. And I’m wondering if you could speak to that or if you’ve ever thought about that at all, that the kinds of—maybe you could talk a little bit about the kinds of equipment you had to work with, and the limitations of using the analog readouts in the control room.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, that’s a very good question. The reactors had to be operated when you started them up—what we called a blind startup, because we didn’t have instruments that told us how subcritical we were. So, you had to—the physicist would calculate the reactivity coefficients for the operation, and depending upon the precursor operation, would determine exactly what the startup conditions were. But because we couldn’t measure the subcritical condition of the reactor, we had—we pulled to about—well, it’s called 100<em>n</em> hours subcritical, then pulled into that. But we had people at a PC manually, if you can imagine, manually counting the count rate as we approached criticality. Because if you pull too many rods out, you can get into a fast period, which will shut you down. So we had to do all this manually. And you probably, having seen the control room—you had 2,004 process tubes. Each one of those tubes was monitored for pressure on the inlet and temperature on the outlet. But those gauges had to be manually moved and adjusted by a crew in the front of that panel—the panellette, that whole 2,004 panel in the control room, right to the right of the control panel. Anyway, you had a whole group of people on startup in ladder-like things that would roll those gauges, instrument man on the rear, but he had to keep the gauges within a range, or you’d trip. So as the water pressure came up, you had to roll all of those. But this was all done manually. And then we had ways of—we had devices that calculated the power level, but it was very deceptive. So those of us that had been trained in physics could basically do a lot of those calculations in our head on the power level. Because what I’ve experienced—I’m sure others did, too—that if an instrument failed, say a flow instrument failed on one side of the reactor, it would indicate you’re only at half of the power level that you’re actually at. So you needed to look at other instruments, and you learned to look—like there was an instrument called a Beckman instrument, which monitored the radioactivity on the rear face. So by walking the control room and looking at all these different instruments, you could check one against the other. But it was all very, very, very, manual. And we did our physics calculations on Marchant calculators, you know, the calculators you punch.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Ferguson: We did all our physics calculations on those at that time. And they were just introducing the IBM 650. GE had a computing facility where we would punch the cards and get some central computing for some of the physics work that we did. And that’s also where they kept track of the production in the reactors. If you could imagine keeping track of eight reactors with 2,004 tubes—there were more than that in the K reactors—but the six older reactors. And keeping the production in each one of those tubes was a function of the flow through that tube and the reactivity and the temperature of each one of those tubes. So you had to keep track of how much plutonium was being produced, because if you leave the fuel in too long, the buildup of plutonium-240 builds up. And so weapons-grade plutonium is about 6% to 10%. So we were operating at getting really pure weapons-grade plutonium. Something below the—at least 10% of 240, because it was—in the early design of the bombs, they found that if plutonium-240 spontaneously fissions, it creates a background. And if it’s too high, it’ll get a premature detonation of the bomb beforehand. So that’s why we had to manage the production. And that’s why there were frequent shutdowns. Unlike commercial reactors, where you operate a long time. And that’s why people confuse—plutonium that’s produced in commercial reactors has a high 240 content which is not good for weapons.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, interesting, okay. So you’re saying—I just want to paraphrase so that I can make sure I understand. So you’re saying that it was the nature of the weapons process that the fuel would only be in there for a short period of time in order to get—and it’s plutonium-240—which one is the--</p>
<p>Ferguson: Is low. 239 is the weapons grade.</p>
<p>Franklin: 239 is the weapons-grade.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And 240 is the low grade.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so that you wouldn’t build up too much 240. So—</p>
<p>Ferguson: And that required a frequent charge and discharge of the reactors.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so in some way, then, the energy reactors by nature are just not really meant for weapons.</p>
<p>Ferguson: They’re the opposite of that. You want them to run. The Energy Northwest reactor which I was responsible for building—it was called BNP2 at the time. But they recently set a record of running for over two years without a shutdown.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because you also want—when you’re producing energy, you want a reliable output of energy—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, fixed, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: You don’t want to be starting and stopping and have that kind of fluctuation in the grid.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s really—I think that’s a good basic point to have established for anyone who’s doing research on that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But an interesting subset of your question about instrumentation. Rickover, in the nuclear navy, who relied on analog instrumentation and ways of measuring things. Because he wanted people to really run the reactor all the time. He didn’t want any risk of that. So it was a transitional period in the nuclear business. And some of the instrumentation that was designed to detect neutrons was very new at the time. Even the badges that we wore, at that time, did not detect neutrons, both fast and slow. And so we had to do experiments on the front face of the reactors to be able to predict what dosage you’d get from neutrons, rather than alpha, beta, and gamma. Because it was not known then exactly the biological effect of neutrons on the human body.</p>
<p>Franklin: Given that the reactors ran, most of the time they had 24-hour shifts, I’m wondering if you can describe to me kind of an average day as a nuclear physicist operating the B Reactor.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it depends—well, let me answer that by, when you—at that time, you couldn’t drive your car out to the Site. So you came to the 700 Area, and there was a—lights up there that indicated which reactors were running. And that told you, if you were a supplemental crew, which reactor to go to. But anyway, to answer your question, if the reactor is operating normally at full power, it’s very—typically, you’d go in and you had about a 15- to 20-minute transfer process from one crew to the other. We kept a detailed log of the activities during our shift. You’d do a—we would typically do a count of the uranium slugs that were stored in the front face so that we’d keep materials accountability. So we would make sure that from shift to shift, there was a transfer of accountability for the slugs that were there. There was a transfer of any ongoing activity that would be taking place. But during normal operation, we had two operators in the control room and then a chief operator. And then the other operators would be picking fuel up out of the basins. That was all done by hand. If you’ve seen the reactor, the fuel would come out, go down in chutes. But all of those fuel elements had to be picked up by hand through the water—through 20 feet of water, put in the buckets, and then those buckets would be transferred under water over to a station where the railcar would come in from the 200 Area, all underwater. And then that bucket that contained the radioactive slugs would be, then, taken by railcar over to the 200 Area where it would be reprocessed. So, that—typically, then, you’d do maintenance work that could be done when the reactor was running. And then you had a daily routine of walking through the whole reactor. It’s very interesting; you could—Robert, you could tell, after you’d been there for a while, by the sounds if things were okay. If there was a shrill sound where the water pressure coming through, the water flowing through the reactors, and all of the different fans had different sounds. So you walked the reactor—always walked, went to the rear—in the rear of the building is a little place with a lead glass shield that you could look through to see the rear face. So you’d check the rear face for any anomalies, for leakage, or anything like that. And then you’d have your—we always had a health physicist on each shift. He had his rounds to check on the radiation levels in different areas. And different areas were controlled depending on whether there was radioactive material or contamination in the area. We had step-off pads, where you’d go from one area to another. Dual step-off pads, if you had a highly contaminated area. And the people—some of the crew would sort laundry as well. Because we went through a lot of laundry, because you had to change into what we called SWPs, special material when you came on shift. So anyway that would be rather routine. Now, during an outage, or during a startup, then you have a beehive of activity. The place that we—the shift supervisor had total control and authority over the running of the reactor. So even the manager and other people that were there for startup, they would have to leave, because of the intensity of the operation during startup. So, if it were an outage, you went into—you were doing charge/discharge. So you have a front face crew and a rear face crew, and you’re doing a lot of physical work. The charging machines would—you’d have to load them up by hand—load the slugs by hand. So it was—it’s hard to explain the level of activity that was going on during an outage. Because we would have maintenance. We would have some maintenance on the process tubes that had to be removed because they were leaking. So we’d have to—the maintenance people would come in and remove those. So it was very, very, very—it’s like a huge manufacturing operation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But a lot by hand. So the dichotomy between—you’ve got a very sophisticated—you get no sound from the reactor itself but a lot of sound from everything that runs the reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: The water and the electronics and everything.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. And the reactors were cooled by—inerted by gas by helium and carbon dioxide. And so one of the auxiliary rooms was a place where you controlled mixture of the helium and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of the reactor. Because you could change the reactivity by changing the temperature of the graphite. You could heat it up with CO2 and cool it off with helium.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. So how long did you work as a reactor physicist—nuclear physicist and shift operator?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, nominally about two years as a physicist and about two years as an operating supervisor. So it was about 50/50 while I was here. I’ll tell you, interesting story. Probably we don’t want to put it on television, but—on September 27<sup>th</sup>, 1960, I was—it was a Tuesday, and I was starting the reactor up. And I got a call that my wife’s water had broken and she was on the way to the Kadlec Hospital to deliver our second girl. So it was the first time in history a reactor went critical the same time a woman went critical. [LAUGHTER] I could tell you exactly where I was standing in that reactor out there when that happened. I’ll always remember that. And Kadlec Hospital at that time was just Quonset huts, as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah, wow. Thanks for sharing. [LAUGHTER] Where did you—I’m assuming you guys lived in Richland while you worked out at Site, right?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so you lived in Richland during—so you would have lived in Richland, then, while it was a government town and then also during the transition.</p>
<p>Ferguson: When we first came here, the government owned the town, and we lived in a B—I was going to say B Reactor. [LAUGHTER] Okay. We lived on Kimball—1524 Kimball in a duplex.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And then the second home here was a ranch house. But then, while we were there they sold. And when we were first here, GE provided coal. We had coal for our heat and lightbulbs. Those were all provided. I think we paid $47 a month rent at that time. And then the town was sold off. And our neighbors had the right to buy the B house.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because they had been there longer than you?</p>
<p>Ferguson: They were one of the original occupants. And so then we rented from them. So we were here during that transition.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you describe that transition? What you remember, or your thoughts on it?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it was very interesting. When we first came here, there was—and one of the reasons that the road system is the way it is is because of the security in the town. There was only one road in at the time and one road out. And that’s the way—you had to be cleared in order to live and work in Richland during that time. And so we—you know, we had a bus system that picked us up. We had a—during that time as well, those of us that worked in radiation levels, every month we’d have our urine sampled. And so the people that worked there set their bottle out by the front door to be picked up and monitored. So then as the town—after the town was sold off, then, there was more interest in changing the—upgrading the buildings, painting, and more things like that. So you could see the evolution from a government-owned town to private ownership. More and more attention to yards and things like that. So we—my wife and I—my family experienced that transition. And we left—came here in 1957. I left here in ‘61 to go to Argonne. And then we came back in 1972, and the town had totally changed, then. When we came back, we looked at a couple of houses in Meadow Springs and the realtor told us it would be pretty iffy to buy there, because that may not go. And there was a dirt road at that time between that and Columbia Center. Columbia Center didn’t exist when we were first here. We came back, and here’s Columbia Center. So having left here and come back, we’ve seen this transformation of the Tri-Cities. Rather remarkable.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And how come you left Richland in ’61?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, actually I was in the control room of B Reactor when we heard about an accident in Idaho called the SL-1 accident.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve heard about that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: It was a military accident that killed three military people. Anyway, it’s kind of a long story, but I’ll make it pretty short. Part of the accident investigation indicated that there was no one AEC organization responsible. The reactor was designed at Argonne in Chicago at Argonne National Lab, but built and operated by the Army at Idaho. And they Idaho office wasn’t responsible; Chicago wasn’t responsible for making sure. So anyway, I was recruited by AEC to go to work up with the AEC to set up the safety program for what was then called the Second Round reactors. These were commercial reactors that were built to encourage the development—commercial development of nuclear power. But Argonne had a lot of reactors at the time, both at Idaho, as well as at Argonne. Both thermal reactors, research reactors and fast reactors. And so anyway, I was recruited because they were looking for people with actual physics and operations experience to work in safety. And so, shortly after I was there, I was sent to Oak Ridge School of Reactor Technology for an accelerated program in state-of-the-art safety. But then we—anyway, then we did a review of all the reactors under Chicago. And those were reactors at Idaho, reactors at Santa Susana in California, Atomics International reactors. And then we had commercial reactors at Piqua, Ohio and Hallam, Nebraska. And—oh, there were two other ones, anyway, that were funded by the AEC, but privately owned. But the safety responsibility was the AEC. So anyway I went back there because of the emergence of the need for people with actual operating experience. There were only two places: that was Savannah River and here at Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And up until that time, you had not worked with commercial reactors; you’d only worked on production.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Yeah, there were no—no, that’s correct.</p>
<p>Franklin: So can you describe that transition? How was that for you? Even though you would have had operating experience, like we talked about earlier, the operation of the commercial reactor is almost opposite. The purposes are very different. And so I’m wondering if you can describe that transition.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it’s also a cultural transition. And one of the difficulties in the development of commercial nuclear power was because of this cultural issue. Some of the utilities were oversold on the ease with which nuclear power could be used to produce electricity. And so they didn’t understand the need for the training and the quality assurance and the rigorous of operation. And that led to some accidents in the early days, because the utilities really were not sensitive to that. Admiral Rickover was even worried that the private sector, the commercial sector, was not able to manage nuclear. And he was afraid that they would have accidents. And that’s why he built and operated Shippingport, which was one of the first commercial reactors, but it was built by the Navy. But anyway, it was a cultural change. And after the SL-1 accident, it was really a wakeup call even within the AEC for the need for rigorous oversight, rigorous design review, design construction, and operation. The need for safety at all of those areas from the time you procure a piece of equipment, to its built, to its put in operation, and then maintained. All of that was new to the industry. So I actually lived through that transition, I guess, if you would call it that. Because GE was—and DuPont were very rigorous in their safety. Very rigorous. Because people didn’t really know much about nuclear power at that time, or nuclear energy.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re saying some of that safety-consciousness kind of came over from the folks involved in production, who then went on to commercial.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve—when talking to people similar to yourself who’ve been in the industry, very familiar with nuclear production and power, I’ve often heard that the nuclear industry is one of the most tightly regulated and safe industries, or focused with safety. And I’m wondering how you feel about that statement, how you would respond to that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it is, because of the potential or the risk. Even though the commercial, there has been no deaths in the commercial nuclear industry in the United States, the potential is there as well. I can just give you a little feel for that. Three Mile Island was a very bad accident, but nobody was hurt. I was there. I was—fifth day of the accident, I was in the control room of Three Mile Island. It was really a bad accident, but nobody got hurt. On the other hand, I was at Chernobyl after that accident. That was a very, very bad accident. A lot of people were killed in that accident. People don’t really understand that—going back to your question about the rigorous safety requirements—Russia did not have a requirement for containment for their reactors. So, Chernobyl had no containment. You couldn’t build and operate that kind of a reactor in the United States. So, one of the issues that emerges from the rigorous safety criteria is the difficulty in transition to new instrumentation, for instance. Because you had very prescriptive regulatory requirements, it was more difficult, basically, to introduce new design, new equipment. And it’s one of the difficulties of the nuclear industry, unlike cars where you’re changing them often, it’s very expensive to build one. And then it’s hard, as innovation and changes take place, it’s hard to introduce those in the course of the licensing. So our licensing system has changed somewhat. You used to have to have two permits for commercial reactor. A permit to build it, and then another permit to operate it. Now those are combined into one, because you wouldn’t want to spend all the money to build a reactor and then not be able to run it. And for the antinuclear community, they used that as a way to stop the operation—or the startup of a lot of reactors. That caused a lot of expense, too. So anyway, it’s been a dynamic change, but not as rapid as your iPhone and changes like that, which can be made very quickly.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, thank you. Really illuminating. I really like that you mention that there was a cultural transition into the commercial reactor, and I assume, there, you’re talking about dealing with utility companies, but I’m also wondering, was there—did you also work with—because you mentioned fast reactors. Did you also work with scientists and people from the university side of operations when you moved into commercial power?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And was that also part of the cultural shift?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, for instance, going into Argonne—Argonne was where the nuclear technology started. I mean, Argonne came from Fermi’s work in Chicago, basically. All of those scientists went to work at Argonne. And they didn’t like to be—scientists don’t like to be regulated or overseen. And so that’s the reason that the reactor—many of the reactors that Argonne worked with were put in Idaho, in a remote area, where you could do a lot of experimentation away from a big city. So that’s where the series of reactors called the BORAX Reactors, where you could actually explode them—pull into a fast period and cause a prompt critical. But you could do that in Idaho because it was so remote. But anyway, it was always a certain amount of tension between research. And one of the current issues right now, there is so much regulation in commercial reactors, it’s hard to introduce any new technology. For instance, Bill Gates is investing in a reactor being designed in China. And he would do that here, but he went to the NRC and it’d take him 24 years to get a permit just to build it here. So, the rigorous licensing process also inhibits development of new technologies. And we don’t really today have a good answer for that. We need to have an intermediate step where you can work on new reactor designs that are not ready for commercial operation yet but need to be run. Because unless you can do experimental work, you can’t develop anything new.</p>
<p>Franklin: But that experimental work is held up by the regulations—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Of the regulations, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you think the public has an inadequate understanding of nuclear technology in general, and nuclear power specifically?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, there’s a lot of work has been done with respect to why people fear nuclear which is really very safe, statistically. The probability of being hurt by a nuclear accident is essentially zero. Yet, people will get in their car and they’ll drive their car. So there’s a lot of psychological fear. And a lot of that fear, we think, comes from the use of nuclear technology for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In other words, the notion of equating weapons with nuclear power. And that has continued to this day, because many people don’t understand here at Hanford the difference between commercial waste and waste from both the Second World War and the Cold War. It’s a very different issue, but people think of it all as one. And one of the problems is that with the evolution of the organization that manages that. I mean, I worked, when I was head of the FFTF project, I worked for the AEC, I worked for ERDA, and I worked for the Atomic Energy Commission in the same job. And so you can understand then. And that—the weapons program is still in the Department of Energy. I’m a big advocate of removing it, because—and removing the waste from the commercial—to create a separation. As long as they’re managed together, how do you expect the average person to believe that they’re not one in the same thing? Or that the issues are not one in the same thing. So that fear of nuclear is real. And there’s been a lot of work done about why people fear it when it is not really unsafe. And generally you find that the people that work with nuclear are very comfortable with it. And the farther away you get, the more fear there is. For instance, here at Hanford, people are very used to working with it. We have clean water. You go over to Seattle, they want to tell us how to—why to be afraid here at Hanford. Well, we live here. We drink the water, we eat the fish. We’re not fearful of it, because we’ve lived with it. We know it. So a lot of that is proximity.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, thank you, I appreciate you expanding on that. It does give it a troubled reputation, doesn’t it? Since the birth of nuclear energy is related to death and bombings and then was a very visible part of our very large stockpile of nuclear weapons.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And it still is a threat with the proliferation. And it’s a huge threat.</p>
<p>Franklin: And to have a peaceful arm of that, though, I think to some people maybe they confuse both heads of that same—</p>
<p>Ferguson: That’s not unnatural that they would do that. The other thing that’s happened, you know, we had—Three Mile Island happened right after Jane Fonda’s movie, <em>The China Syndrome</em>. And then we had Chernobyl. And then we had the accident in Japan. So these big accidents get a lot of publicity. And there’s a lot of fear that comes from the reporting of that, which isn’t always accurate. Because the nature of reporting is to make things dramatic. And so it gets dramatized in the public. So it probably will take generations to—people to address that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because certainly our current—where we get our current energy from is also a problematic source of energy, in terms of its political and human and environmental costs.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. The irony is that 20%, nominally, 20% of our electricity comes from nuclear. 70% of the carbon-free generation—70% comes from nuclear. And so there is no way the country can ever meet its goal of carbon emissions without a greater use of nuclear power. Because solar and wind are both intermittent. You can’t store them. For instance, if you had to rely on them during the cold weather we just had—we had no sun, it was cold. Where would you get your energy? Where would you get your energy? And the other thing that people really don’t understand is that both wind and solar are nuclear energy. Their source is nuclear energy from the sun. The sun—and the earth gets all of its energy from radiation from the sun. Yet people don’t think of that radiation as bad radiation. They think of that as good radiation. And other radiation, from nuclear power, is bad radiation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting, I don’t think I ever thought of it quite like that before. But it’s very true.</p>
<p>Ferguson: All of the weather comes from absorption of energy from the sun in the oceans, creates the wind, picks up the moisture, delivers it. That’s where we get our hydro power. Solar power—all of that is nuclear energy from the sun. The sun is our source of nuclear energy.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, even in a way then oil is also from the sun, because it’s decomposed carbon matter—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Originally—</p>
<p>Franklin: Originally.</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, really, it preceded the sun in the sense that it was a part of matter when it was created at the Big Bang.</p>
<p>Franklin: True. So I’d like to go back—tell me about coming back to Richland to work on the FFTF. What brought you back from Argonne to Hanford?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, the people—the assistant manager at Argonne for the AEC I had worked with there—and he became the manager of the Richland Operations Office. And then another fellow I had worked with there, Alex Fremling, became his deputy. And so they asked me to come back. They were having a lot of difficulty with the management of the contracts here. And I’d had a lot of experience in project management at Argonne in both high energy physics and reactor projects, and a lot of experience in contracting. So anyway, I came back and I was originally head of contracts. And then shortly after that I was made technical director for the Site. That was at a period when—or at a time, in 1972, when 106-T leak occurred. That was the 105,000-gallon leak that really was the first major leak of radioactive material from the tanks. And it’s the first time the public then became aware of the real problem here at Hanford. And so I was on the investigating committee for that event. And we went back to—Dixy Lee Ray was Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission and then subsequently our governor. But we asked for a supplemental appropriation--$20 million supplemental appropriation to start building double-shell tanks. So that’s when we started building the double-shell tanks, thinking that there would be a solution fairly soon. And I can take you all the way back to when I was with GE, I did some—one of my jobs there, I measured some—the radiation level in some of the tanks, because as early as that time, GE was concerned about leaking tanks. Because the radioactive material in the tanks stratifies. The radiation level is different and it creates a temperature stress in the tanks. So we were—as early as then, we were worried about tanks leaking. Now—that was 1958, ’59. Here we are in 2016 and we’ve got leaky tanks and no solution. [LAUGHTER] Not much progress.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sadly no.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Anyway then FFTF was in trouble from a cost and schedule standpoint. So I was asked to set up the FFTF Project Office. And the manager of Richland went back to Washington, and he became head of nuclear energy in Washington. His deputy became manager here—Alex Fremling became manager here and so they—we’d all worked together. And so they asked me to set up the FFTF Project Office.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And that’s when—in 1973—I stayed here until 1978 and then Jim Schlesinger, the chairman of—Secretary of Energy for DOE asked me to go back and take over the nuclear program in Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what do you feel like you got accomplished from ’73 to ’78 on the FFTF Project Office?</p>
<p>Ferguson: We built the most remarkable fast reactor test facilities that’s ever been built. At the time that I was asked to take it over, there was a member of the—Bill Anders—who was the astronaut that went around the moon the first time. Anyway, he was a member of the AEC. But he helped me get the project office set up based on the way NASA set up their offices: decentralized. But he told me that the FFTF was far more difficult technical job than putting a man on the moon. So the development of the technology that we developed and demonstrated with FFTF was really incredible. And a lot of that technology’s now being given to Japan—to China—for their new development program. A lot of the sodium technology, the fast reactor technology. So we accomplished a lot. But it didn’t—and then it got killed. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right, it did. I wonder if you could talk about that. What happened to the FFTF?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, at the time FFTF was built, the policy of the United States and the Atomic Energy Commission was to reprocess and have breeder reactors. And so that you would take the fuel from commercial reactors, reprocess it, take the plutonium out of it, use that plutonium for fuel for fast reactors. So essentially, by using fast reactors, you have basically an unlimited supply of energy. So that was the policy when FFTF was built. Clinch River was to be a commercial demonstration plant at Clinch River in Tennessee. Clinch River was killed when Carter came in. Carter killed the breeder program because he thought that—first of all, he didn’t think nuclear was going to be here to stay, and he didn’t want to—thought reprocessing would facilitate the spread of nuclear weapons around the world. Because when you do reprocess, you can use that same technology to extract plutonium for weapons. So it was killed for that reason. And Carter was pushing coal at the time, saying we had, essentially, an abundant supply of coal. And so he thought that nuclear really wasn’t going to—it was a last resort, as he put it. Because of our lack of reprocessing, we have influenced the design of Yucca Mountain for the deep geologic storage. Because at the time that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act in 1982 was set up, there was a conflict between those that wanted to reprocess and those that didn’t want to reprocess. So Yucca Mountain is designed for retrievability. It’s designed for permanent storage of defense waste, but retrievability of commercial waste. So at some date in the future, it could be reprocessed. Because about 90% of the energy value is still in fuel once it’s discharged from a commercial reactor. So anyway, that decision has affected a lot of subsequent issues that the country has faced.</p>
<p>Franklin: How come the program didn’t come back under Reagan?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, in January of 1982, I was asked to participate in a—that’s when Reagan was president, and George Bush, Sr. was his vice president. And he called a meeting that I was invited to, to discuss what was going on in nuclear at that time. And at the time, I was head of WPPSS. And the cost estimate—this was post-Three-Mile Island. The cost estimate for plants was going up, they were having delays. And so Reagan called this meeting from executives to find out what could be done with nuclear. Well, as a result of that meeting, then, we were instrumental in getting the Nuclear Waste Policy Act started which he then proposed as a way of dealing with commercial nuclear fuel. Because up until that time, there was no solution to commercial nuclear fuel. So—and there still isn’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: There still isn’t. Because Obama killed—or tried to kill the Yucca Mountain project. But we stopped him from doing that. I was one of the principals—law suit that the courts ruled that he didn’t have the authority to do that. But he stopped it. So now there is no solution, yet, to what to do with commercial fuel. So commercial fuel is now stored all over the United States at all of the reactors.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. How did you become involved with the WPPSS project?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I was recruited out of Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re just back and forth from here to Washington and then back.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, people that had known about my success in building FFTF and turning that around—and it turns out Senator Jackson was one of those. And so when I was recruited, I’d been in the government 20 years, and I was still pretty young. I didn’t want to leave the government, because I had no retirement. I wasn’t old enough to retire. Anyway, Senator Jackson told me that if I would come out and solve the WPPSS problem, he would make sure I got back in the government. Well, a long story short, I came out and I did solve, I think, the WPPSS problem. But I also had open heart surgery and ruined my health and then Senator Jackson died. So I never went back into the government. He died and I never had a pension. So—[LAUGHTER] so that’s what WPPSS did to me! But anyway, I was recruited—going back to your question—there was a national recruitment because of the difficulties WPPSS was having building the plants.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did you work at WPPSS for?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Three years, ’80 to ’83.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what did you do after that?</p>
<p>Ferguson: I started up a company, R.L. Ferguson and Associates, a consulting company. And we sold that to SAIC. And then I started up another company, Nouveau Tech. And we acquired a nuclear waste facility that’s out here, now it’s called PermaFix Northwest. We acquired that out of bankruptcy from ATG. And then in 2007, I sold that to PermaFix. And since then, I’ve been writing books and consulting.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re still not retired.</p>
<p>Ferguson: No. I’m still consulting.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still consulting. But still on—</p>
<p>Ferguson: And I’ve written two books on the nuclear waste issue, so—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, great. Well, which two books are those?</p>
<p>Ferguson: <em>Nuclear Waste in Your Backyard: Who’s to Blame and What to Do About It</em>. And the first one was called—I can’t remember the name of it. Something about Obama and Reid wasting money. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah. Tell me about your involvement with the Tri-Cities Nuclear Industrial Council, TRICNIC, which later became TRIDEC.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, after I left WPPSS, I was asked to be the chair of TRICNIC. Because I was kind of in a period when I was trying to recover for my health. And so Sam Volpentest was the executive vice president, and Glen Lee was publisher of the paper then, and Bob Philips was the president. And they would ask me to be the president of TRICNIC. And then because of the need to diversify the economy in the Tri-Cities, we merged TRICNIC with the Tri-City Chamber, and that became then TRIDEC. And so I was the first president and chair of TRIDEC, when it was formed. And Sam stayed on until his death. He worked up until he died. And then Gary Petersen took over his place to head up the Hanford part of TRICNIC.</p>
<p>Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about working with Sam Volpentest.</p>
<p>Ferguson: There’s been a whole book written about that. [LAUGHTER] Did you read it? The godfather?</p>
<p>Franklin: I have, yeah, <em>The Community Godfather</em> by C. Mark Smith.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Much of my life is in there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: [LAUGHTER] But anyway, no, yeah, he was one of those remarkable people that you know in your lifetime. He worked right up until he died. I told a story at his funeral—a eulogy—I said, you know, the clock was set right after 5:00 because he wanted to put in a final shift before he died. [LAUGHTER] So he died right after 5:00. [LAUGHTER] But Sam was very devoted to the Tri-Cities and the economic development of the Tri-Cities and spent his whole life on behalf. But he was probably largely responsible for my—or one of the reasons for taking over WPPSS, because he was close to Senator Jackson. I had worked with him in the community on FFTF as well. When I took over FFTF, we not only—the prior head of the nuclear in Washington had testified it would be completed for $187 million. But we didn’t—not only couldn’t you complete it, we ran out of money that year. And Sam was instrumental in TRIDEC—or TRICNIC was instrumental in getting a supplemental appropriation to keep FFTF. That’s one of its early, early almost-deaths. So I started working with Sam in the community at that time. So then when I left WPPSS, I was asked to get more involved.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. I’m wondering if you can remember or can tell me about any kind of notable events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you were working out there. I think you would have been gone for the JFK visit, which was in ’63, but if there were any other—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, I was at Argonne then.</p>
<p>Franklin: But if there were any other notable events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you worked there.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh. Other than the leak? 106-T leak?</p>
<p>Franklin: Pretty notable. Or maybe in general in Tri-Cities history, or any—did you ever go to any of the Atomic Frontier Days parades or anything like that?</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, I didn’t, no. I’m trying to think of—well, 10,000 people marched in support of keeping WNP-1 alive. Have you ever seen that picture?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes.</p>
<p>Ferguson: 10,000 people, can you imagine that?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes, yeah, that’s—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Supporting nuclear power? Where else in the country could you do that?</p>
<p>Franklin: Not too many places.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I’m trying to think, what--?</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s okay if you don’t.</p>
<p>Ferguson: I really—I can’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s one of my stock questions.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Franklin: You know, in case something pops up.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So, I guess—let me look over this.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Probably told you more than you want to know!</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, we’ve covered quite a bit. And I just have kind of one last question that’s kind of a wrap-up question. But I’m wondering what you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland in the Cold War.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I think it would be very important, and I think it’s even important for this generation to understand the circumstances under which people operated the reactors. There’s been a lot of public criticism about the fact that we discharged waste into the ground. And people just, I think, don’t understand the pressures and the circumstances. The major thing people should understand is that Hanford was very carefully chosen because of the potential risk of an accident or even discharge of radioactive material. The selection of Hanford is unique in the location. The 200 Area, it’s unique in the sense that under the site is a layer of caliche, it’s like cement. Overlaying on that is sand. And they looked up on this as basically a way to hold up the radioactive material and they put it in the ground. And so it wasn’t just people being careless or anything like that. There were the pressures and unknowns. People didn’t know a lot about nuclear, but there was an incredible safety record in spite of all of that. So anyway, I think the big disappointment I have is that the waste hasn’t been take care of, and it’s mostly a political issue than a technical issue. It could have been taken care of a long time ago, but it’s terrible. It’s an issue that has become politicized.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because sites with smaller amounts of waste have been able to encapsulate—begin or even in some cases finish encapsulation programs like West Valley, Savannah River—have been able to deal.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And most of our waste out here doesn’t really have to be vitrified, either. It’s high activity, because of where it came from, by law. It came from reprocessing. But it’s high-level waste, but it’s low-activity waste. And so if you remove the cesium from it, you could basically secure the waste in a cementaceous form and send it to Texas. About 80% of the waste could be done and we wouldn’t even have to build a vit plant. So it’s been—the design of the Vit Plant was wrong from the beginning. The Hanford waste is unique from a lot of different wastes, in that it’s such a mixture of so many different kinds—it’s not homogeneous. So the design of the Vit Plant, rather than have multiple facilities to treat separate kinds of waste, they basically have a pre-treatment plant where they want to treat all of the waste to make it in a consistent form to feed into the melter. Well, the pre-treatment plant is what’s stopping everything. So there’s been a lot of—you know, I’ve lived through about three or four different starts of the Vit Plant. So, I’ve seen it, and it’s very frustrating to see how political it has become, and a lack of science-based decisions that are made.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I’ve seen some of the bumper stickers, I forget exactly what they say, but I’ll paraphrase here: Vitrification in 2007, or Hanford Vit Plant. You know, 2007 or 2004. And then we’re—it’s 2016 and we’re still waiting.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Still waiting. Still no—</p>
<p>Franklin: Perhaps—as you said, perhaps for a plant that is not the best approach—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: --to the problem. Well—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Sam Volpentest predicted before he died that the Vit Plant would never be built because of the cost. And now you’re seeing it being questioned because of the cost. People are saying, why do we have to spend this kind of money? Because it’s—about $3 billion comes here every year for Hanford, including Battelle. But it’s a huge amount of money. It’s like the WPPSS plants. People used to say, well, we have to build them no matter what. Well, they got too expensive and the need for power went away, and so they didn’t get built. So there comes a price when things are not affordable. And there’s not really a risk to the river. The waste needs to be treated and cleaned up, but there’s no risk, really. There’s no health risk. The flow of the river is so great, any material gets in there is so diluted you can’t even detect it. But that’s not a solution. Right after 106-T, Battelle did some studies for us, just what-if studies. And we said, what if all the waste went in the Columbia River? Well, downstream, it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s so dilute. Not that that’s—I’m not advocating that at all. But it just shows you that the risk to the health and safety of the public is not—does not demand what we’re doing with the waste out there. It doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taken care of. I’m just—because at one time Sam and I faced some members of Congress who wanted to put a fence around Hanford and not do anything with it. Just leave it there. [LAUGHTER] So, anyway. I’ve been there, done it.</p>
<p>Franklin: So at least we’re away from that solution.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I hope we’re not going back there. But when the price gets so high, people away from here and the demand for money in the budget gets so tremendous, it’s—strange things can happen.</p>
<p>Franklin: They sure can.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, Bob, thank you so much for coming in and interviewing with us today.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay, Robert.</p>
<p>Franklin: I really appreciated it.</p>
<p>Ferguson: I hope I didn’t cover too much for you.</p>
<p>Franklin: You did a great job; we touched on a lot of really great things. So thank you.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:14:41
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
700 Area
C Area
B Reactor
Vitrification Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1957-1961
1972-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1973-1978
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Fred Boleros
Admiral Rickover
Alex Fremling
Bill Anders
Clinch River
Sam Volpentest
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Bob Ferguson
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob Ferguson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-21-2016
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-01-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
200 Area
700 Area
Atomic Energy Commission
B Reactor
Backyard
Battelle
C Area
C Reactor
Cold War
Department of Energy
DuPont
Energy Northwest
Hanford
Mountain
NASA
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Savannah River
School
VIT Plant
War
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19c463c013a7a2ea8e9413b017cfd710
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd4988a2f752925db95342438fe97dd91.mp4
7a3c130b03e6994e51dc0c9d0d65fb73
Oral History
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Transcription
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Okay, great. So let’s start off here. First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, my first name is Delbert L. Ballard. Leo for center. D-E-L-B-E-R-T, B-A-L-L-A-R-D. And I go by Del, commonly.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: All right, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview here on February 18</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX9056486">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Ballard about his experiences working on the Hanford site, living in this community. First of all, can you start us off just—walk us through your life in sort of a brief term before you came to this area.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I was raised on a dryland wheat farm in Montana, so I know what work is all about. And I was a student in a little high school that was only seven of us in our graduating class. So I was sort of a country boy, and went to college at Montana State University. And I graduated from there in 1951. Just prior to that, the General Electric Company, of course, had been there to do interviews. They were scoping for—recruiting for engineers and I was a civil engineer graduate. There </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> other recruiters through, too. I had an offer from a San Francisco shipyard, and another from the Soil Conservation Service in Montana. But I wanted to get a job with GE. So I’d had the interview, but no really positive award or recognition that they were going to give me an offer. They were interviewing a large number of people. So graduation day came around and I still hadn’t gotten a letter from GE. But the mail came that morning, and lo and behold, there it was. So I was really pleased at that. So my initial job right out of college was coming to Hanford and working for General Electric Company </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">as a rotational training—in the rotational training program. They had hired that year, the previous year, actually ’49, ’50 and ’51, they had hired about 300 or 350 tech grads. And I was one of the later ones getting here; I didn’t get here until July. So most of the good jobs were assigned. But in the rotational training program, my first assignment was a rather mundane assignment to the transportation department. Next one was a more interesting job with the inspection department. That was over in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, Hanford was undergoing I believed what they called the Korean expansion. The Korean War was underway and in full force at that time when I got out of school. As a matter of fact, I thought I was going to be drafted, but I tried to enlist and—I’m diverting here a little bit, but—tried to enlist in the Air Force to be a pilot, but my eyes weren’t good enough, so I got rejected for that. [LAUGHTER] So when I knew that the GE job was a deferred job, I thought, well, that’s an alternate I’d just as soon pursue. So anyway when I got here on the rotational training program, that’s what it was. Individuals were assigned to different locations for training purposes and for filling job needs. The second assignment was, as I said, inspection department in the shipyard in Bremerton. At that time, they were fabricating—the shipyard was fabricating the biological shield blocks for the C Reactor. It was one of the expansion </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">efforts at Hanford, increasing the production capacity. So that was an interesting job over there at the shipyard doing inspection and learning a lot about inspection techniques and components and so forth. Another month after that, I was rotating around the Seattle area inspecting other components that were being manufactured for the C Reactor. C Reactor, as you know, was the one that was built right alongside of the B Reactor out at Hanford. It started up in ’53, I believe. But out of the rotational training program, I was assigned into construction area out in the 300 Area. They were fabricating laboratories for building the laboratories out there. Radiochemistry, radiometallurgy, pile tech, machine shop, and a library at that area of the Hanford—300 Area was just under construction. So I got assigned to help in the field engineering in that job. It was an interesting project. I learned a lot there in that job. And from there I went into other project engineering work, including in later years, the K Reactors were under construction and I was involved in laying up the graphite of that reactor, K East Reactors. I stayed in project engineering with GE all my life—or all my employment time was with GE. They left here in ’64. Yeah, Battelle came in ’65. Two of the projects that I followed after K Reactors, one of them was the critical mass lab in the 300 Area, which was a facility for evaluating critical shapes and sizes for plutonium missiles. It was a research job, research facility. </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">That project was a lump sum construction and plant forces for the completion of putting the process equipment in. The next job I had was the High Temperature Lattice Test reactor in the 300 Area. That’s a reactor that probably hasn’t gotten much publicity. It was a small graphite reactor. But that was a job I was very proud of, because I was the sole project engineering function at the time. The design was done by an organization that was just brought on as GE was being phased out. It was the Vitro Engineering Company. They had a detailed design of the job, and the construction was done lump sum, and then J. Jones did the reactor installation. I can tell quite a bit of detail about that reactor, if you’re interesting. [LAUGHTER] But it was an experimental facility also for evaluating different lattice spacings for graphite moderator reactors. It was electrically heated—it operated up at 1,000 degrees centigrade, so that graphite, looking through the peepholes in the reactor, you could see white hot graphite, which is sort of an interesting thing to see. But that project was not large in comparison to today’s funding levels. But it was a three- to four-million-dollar project. </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">I finished the job and closed it out with less than $200 left on the books and no overrun. [LAUGHTER] So I got a commendation for that job, which I was quite proud of. But from there, then I diverted into other project engineering jobs. One was in Idaho Falls. We had a test facility over there, putting in test loops in the engineering test reactor. That was closer to reactor operations type work. We had to modify an operating reactor. But that was some of my interesting project years before I got into jobs later on, which was the FFTF and the FMEF. Fuels and Materials Exam Facility. I always make the statement that every project, or every job that I worked on up until the FFTF was completed and put into operation. Every project after FFTF was shut down and closed down before it was completed. [LAUGHTER] So that was kind of a breaking point for me. Hanford, of course, reached its peak in production, and I can talk something about that as far as reactor operations is concerned. But I wasn’t really in operations, I was in engineering, and had jobs all over the Project. So I never was tied down to one location. It was interesting. So I had an interesting career in a lot of different projects. I enjoyed my work, and had a good time and a good married life and I can go into that, too, if you wish.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: So you say you were with GE this whole time? You didn’t switch over to different contractors as they came in?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, yes—no. I just with GE until they left.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: I see.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: And then Battelle came in ’65. So I was with Battelle for ’65 until ’70 when Westinghouse took over the Breeder Program. Initially, Westinghouse was just brought in for the Fast Flux Test Reactor, to manage that. And I happened to be working on a development job. That’s one I haven’t mentioned yet. [LAUGHTER] When Westinghouse came in, I was assigned—that was my first manager job. I had a group, or a section in the 321 Building in the 300 Area, and a job which was identified as the hydraulic core mockup. And we designed, built and operated models to evaluate the design configuration for the FFTF. So we built water models to look at a lot of different features: the reactor vessel arrangement, and the core arrangement and the structure. And the inlet planning and outlet planning. We built several models. The two biggest ones were the inlet model, which evaluated the sodium distribution in the inlet planning and feeding characteristics for the fuels channels. I worked on that job for seven years. And then during that time, of course, FFTF came under construction. Our group actually influenced the design which was being done by Westinghouse back east. There was a lot of the features in the arrangements and shapes of the vessel and the flow distribution and the core that was determined by that hydraulic core mockup test facility. Then when they started putting the reactor together, I was assigned to construction out in 400 Area. I spent the whole year inside the reactor vessel, helping the engineer put the parts together. One of our humorous comments about FFTF was, from our perspective was FFTF, do you know what that stands for? Yeah, it sounds for feel</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> file</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> to fit. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">Fill all the tight tolerances and all the arrangements necessary to make everything fit and throw it together. It was well-engineered and well-designed, but it was still—engineering problems had to be resolved in the field. So that was another interesting project. Following that, then I spent seven years on the FMEF, the Fuels and Materials Exam Facility, designing and coordinating the design—the management of the design, which was done by an off-plant architect engineer. And there, again, that was a project that was not completed. It was shut down when the Breeder Program was curtailed. So, following that, I could go into more details where we did for various and sundry work, but it was all toward the new mission for the Hanford site, which was cleanup, </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">starting in that field in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. I retired, officially, in ’89. But I worked consulting for four years after that. So my career actually spanned from 1951 to 1994.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: How disappointing was it when FFTF got canceled?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Pardon me?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Was it disappointing when FFTF got canceled?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: It was very discouraging, yes, that they were going to close it down. When they drilled a hole in the core support structure, like drilling a hole in my heart. [LAUGHTER] Matter of fact, I’ve got some pictures to show that I was the last person in the FFTF vessel before they closed it up and started it filling it with sodium. Matter of fact, after that closure—after the photograph that I have, I’ll be happy to show you—they had an accident with the fuel charging machine which went up to the top of the travel and the upper limits which failed and it dropped down on the core and broke some of the components that I was so—[LAUGHTER]—proud of getting installed properly. Core support structure. And we had to go in there and do some repairs. But then I, after that, I left the FFTF and went to work on the design of the FMEF. [SIGH]</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Did life sort of change day-to-day when you switched these contractors? How different was it working for these different companies?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: The only change that I could see was the difference of the color of the paycheck. [LAUGHTER] As a matter of fact, when we transferred from—let’s see if I can remember which contract that was—was it GE to Battelle or Battelle to Westinghouse? I don’t remember, but the end of that day, we were terminated and I happened to be at a party down in one of the local pubs which I didn’t very often frequent. But somebody said, who do you work for? And I said, at the moment I’m unemployed. Because that was the day we left one contractor and started with the next one. But the transitions were quite smooth, I would say. I mean, of course, policies changed and your managers changed. At one time, in a two-year period when Westinghouse came in, I think I had 13 different first level and second level</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> managers</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> above </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">me change without in those two-year period. So there was a lot of personnel changes. But a lot of us working closer to the ground floor, there was very little change.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: So, let’s back up a moment. What were your first impressions of Hanford and the area?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I came here in the summer—it was in July. I got here on July 3</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX9056486">rd</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> of 1951. I was assigned to the barracks out in North Richland—women’s barracks as a matter of fact. That’s when all the dormitory rooms were filled up in Richland for the men’s dorms. So I was assigned out there for my quarters. The next day, I learned that you didn’t have to drive the buses around, you could ride the city buses or the plant buses. Plant buses, to ride to the area was five cents, and city buses, I don’t remember whether they were five cents or free. I rode that bus the next day that I went to work, and it was 105 degrees that day. And I thought, my lord, what have I gotten myself into? [LAUGHTER] This is horrible temperature! But I was young and willing to accept anything that came my way, so I guess I didn’t think it was too serious a problem.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: How aware were you of the mission of Hanford before you came here?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Very little, probably. I knew that it was working on the war effort, but at that time, nobody really—well, yeah, I guess it was known they were producing plutonium or weapons for atomic weapons, but as far as the details concerned, I knew very little. As any engineer—young man right out of college might be. Because I didn’t know what the plant—the structure was. But they gave—they told us and we got the information from the co-workers and the other students. It was quite interesting, because all the youngsters that were working, everybody—not the majority of people, but a large percentage of them—were fresh graduates. The older bunch were the 30- and 35-year-olds working on the site. That’s when </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">I met my wife shortly after that in ’53. But we were married in ’53. But I met her in ’52 at a social that was put on by YWCA, Young Women’s—YWCA organization. They had church-sponsored dinners one night a week and that’s where we met. So we’ve been married for 62 years now.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Were there a lot of those sort of social events?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: A lot of those that happened. As a matter of fact, the organization—I was the third set that the president and the secretary of that organization got married. [LAUGHTER] She was the secretary when I was the president of the organization. [LAUGHTER] Which was sort of comical, I guess.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: What sort of things did you and your wife do in your spare time in the ‘50s and ‘60s?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I guess bridge playing was one, and social events. We went—there was—they had a group that she was involved in called the Fireside Group that had functions and went camping and things like that. But we played a lot of bridge then.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Where did you live?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I was living in the dormitories, of course, when we were married. I lived in North Richland in the women’s barracks for a short time until the rooms became available in the dormitories in Richland. That’s where I was living when we got married. Of course, housing was another whole story. You had to put your name on a list to get a house. They were all assigned by the government. All the housing was, of course, controlled and owned by the government. So you had to get your name on the waiting list to get a house. We were fortunate; we got a duplex, a C house up on Wright Avenue. I got that assigned in less than a month before we were married. So when we were married, we had a two-bedroom duplex house up there available. That’s where we moved in and lived there until 1957 when the government decided to disperse the property. They started selling vacant lots in 1957. We were a junior tenant in the duplex, so we couldn’t make an offer on the duplex. The senior tenants had the right to buy the duplex. So I was quite aggressive in my ownership philosophy, decided to buy a lot. We purchased the lot on Newcomer, the first property that was sold. And we built a house. I started building in March of 1958. As a matter of fact, we built—our house was the third privately built house in Richland. We had a house and were living in it before</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> Richland was</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> incorporated</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">. They incorporated the city in July of ’58. That was of course the second official designation as a corporation because Richland, of course was a corporation—I mean an incorporated city before the government took it over in ’43. We built that house and I have pictures that I brought of the fact it was one of the first ones in Richland. And we’re still living in the same house. I don’t know what that says, but [LAUGHTER] I guess stability for one thing.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Were you involved in local politics at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: In what?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: In local politics at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>; No, not really. They asked me a few times if I wouldn’t run for the city council, but I never did. No, I’m not a politician. I didn’t want to get involved in that.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: So you described a number of different jobs you were doing over the first two decades or so that you were here? Could you walk us through, at least for one of those, what was sort of an average work day like?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, let me see. There was one—I guess all of them were similar in a lot of respects. I was doing—on those jobs, I was doing project engineering. And that meant the coordination of, and the I guess you’d call it management, although there was, of course, the organization like GE, there’s so many levels of management that comes through that it’s a little hard to say you managed it, because you have so much supervision and overhead actions that are taken on a project, for example. But on most projects, the engineer—the project engineer would write the project proposal based on what the technical department would have as input for a required facility, for example. Like the high temperature lattice test reactor, the physics department had specified the programs that they were involved in would want to look in more detail at the lattice spacing in graphite reactors, for example. So they would write a document which would specify what their objective was and what their basic criteria was for that facility. And project people would issue—maybe take that and issue an order for another group to do the detailed process—conceptual design, or do it themselves. We’d do it sometimes on small projects. </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">We had projects all the way from modify one laboratory all the way up to a whole facility. So it’s hard to describe the same process for all of them. But it was office work, engineering work. Some of the times I was in a design group where we actually doing detailed design work. But most of my work was in the project engineering field where we were seeing the work done by others. Or specifying details or managing the people that were doing the detailed design work. But it was office work, and of course when construction started, that’s when the project engineers were more in control, because they were directing the contractors as far as the field work was concerned. It was always an interesting job, an interesting challenge, I thought, preparing contract bid packages. Office work, lots of times the projects were out in the field, of course, out in the Area. We’d drive government cars to go to work. That was an advantage. Of course being in engineering rather than operations where you had more control of your time from the standpoint of individual management. Because we’d use government cars for transportation. We didn’t have computers in the early stages, obviously. When they came out with DSIs, Don’</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">t Say It </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">In</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> Writing, that was a big move, too. [LAUGHTER] But certainly a lot of progress and a lot of technology changes over the years.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: How much were security or classification a part of your work?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, it was certainly in overview all the time. All the documents, if a job had classified work on it, you had to get the documents classified, and follow the restrictions for those particular elements or documents, whatever’s involved. Most of the time, of course, construction was not too rigidly controlled or administered, I guess. In later years, because the, for example, research work was not really high classified. Most—a lot of it wasn’t. But it was something that was always there. Of course the badging was always—I remember one time incident I had which was funny—rather humorous. I was in a meeting out in one of the hundred areas, in a back room in some building and we were having a discussion. All of the sudden a door burst open and two patrolmen came in and said, where’s Del Ballard?! I’m over here. [LAUGHTER] Hey, come with me! They took me by the arms and whisked me outside and outside the badge house. I said, what’s going on? What’s the problem? They said, you don’t have a badge! I said, what do you mean I don’t </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">got</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> a badge. I looked at it and it was somebody else’s badge—name on it. They had given me the wrong badge! [LAUGHTER] So they were, I guess, vigilant in their control. But some of the times you thought it was a little overreach. It was always there, that’s for sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: You mentioned a couple jobs not necessarily at Hanford—I think you said Idaho Falls at one point, or other locations around?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Yes, we had a project—I guess I sort of skipped over that—in the Engineering Test Reactor in Idaho Falls. The fuels people here—research people—wanted to do some testing in the Engineering Test Reactor with certain issues or problems that they were trying to develop from the fuel technology. So we put in two high pressure loops over there. Again, I was the project person on it. I didn’t do the design work, I did the procurement and the construction management. Philips Petroleum was the operating contractor over there at the Engineering Test Reactor. So I went over there and saw that those loops were completed and put in place and in operation. It was in 1958. I spent, well, most of that year over there, back and forth. My wife was really unhappy, because that was the year that we had started our house. So I had—coming home on weekends and trying to keep that sorted out. Because we had a foreman working with the carpenters building the house. So it was kind of stressful for her. Yeah, and then I had to go back for the next year after that for some cleanup work on the project. It was another project that was managed by Hanford, but installing a reactor over there.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: I’m curious how sort of insular Hanford was, versus how much it was common for people to get advice from outside of the Area, or to travel </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">to different facilities and learn what they were doing, or share what you were doing with others?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I think that’s probably more prevalent in the technical field than it is in the construction area. Yeah, there certainly was in a nuclear complex, there was—and we did have travels. I did visit some other sites. Occasionally the laboratories on some of the projects we had. But most of that was done by the technical department, not the engineering department.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: How much has the community changed</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> in any particular ways during the time you’ve lived here?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, it’s gone from a small </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">community to a much higher-traffic area than it used to be. But the people say it’s still pretty mild. Of course I’ve traveled to Los Angeles quite a bit; I had relatives in Los Angeles. And I’d grow accustomed to that mainly down there too. But it’s still—the Tri-Cities is still a nice place to live, I think. It doesn’t have a lot of the big city hubbub that other places do, but it certainly has changed a lot from what it was when I came. My wife came in 1944. Of course that was when it was sand and dust piles and no trees and no grass. It was a lot like that when I came, too, although it was developing. But the first few years that the Manhattan Project workers were here, they had some pretty rough goes. Of course the government would operate a city was an entirely different situation than we have now with private ownership and private management of the company—or local management of the company there. When the government operated the city, it was—you’ve heard these stories before, I know. Even lightbulbs were changed by the employees of the government. [LAUGHTER] So that was a big change. But when we got married we were renting from the government but as soon as they sold the houses we built our own and were on our own. So we’ve lived pretty much as a private city in all of our married life. So that hasn’t been a major change.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Anything else—nothing else in particular I’m fishing for here—did anything else come to mind, as far as changes in, I don’t know, spirit of work at Hanford or changes in the communities?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, the government management of the Hanford site has certainly undergone lots of changes</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">, much as our society has, I think, over the last 50 years. When GE operated the plant, I felt and a lot of us felt that the program was defined in general in scope and the contractor was given a block of money and there they went. They did the job. They didn’t have the oversight or the detail management or the daily exchange as much with the government, I think, as they do now. I think that’s been a change in philosophy or change in detail of management more. A lot of it is because the public’s been more closely involved. Like the different committees that are involved in the oversight with the DoE that they didn’t have at that time. Of course when the Manhattan Project started, it was even further away than that. Nobody outside the Project knew what was being done. They were building the atomic bomb and nobody knew was done except the organization involved in it. Now, anything the government does </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">it’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> public knowledge and has 100 different reviews over a period of a decade before they get anything done. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> </span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Of course all these decades we’re talking about here are during the Cold War, and nuclear weapons are wrapped up in a lot of that and nuclear power. Was that ever something that was on your mind, or that were you aware of? Or was that just something that was going on far away?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: No, I think the Cold War and the conflict with Russia was well-known because of all the cautions and concerns about the atomic weapons and people—during the crisis that peaked in the early ‘60s and we were in hard conflict with Russia. A lot of concern about what might happen. It was a different era and there was a lot of awareness of the potential that there could be a nuclear conflict.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Did it ever impact your life, or your wife’s life more or less directly?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I don’t think we—we thought we were protected, we thought we had the national security to take care of it. And I guess we didn’t really worry about it—it was something you didn’t really dwell on, I don’t think. Although they told the students and the kids—some people did build bomb shelters. My neighbor, Dr. Petty, they had one at their house under the lawn in the front yard. When they built the house, they put in a bomb shelter.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: [INAUDIBLE]</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Nobody knew about it but them, but I knew about it. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Did you ever see the inside of the shelter?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: I never was in it, no. But I know it’s there.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Let’s see. So I guess we’ve sort of covered this. Could you describe the ways in which security and or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I guess from the work that I did in the engineering specifications and drawings and documents that related to projects, we had to worry about the classification on them. You had to worry about the access—access to different projects at different facilities. Of course you had to have the right clearance. So it was a restraint on work in some respects. But it wasn’t a major impact, I don’t think.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: In more recent years—well I guess I don’t know how long—you’ve been working with the B Reactor Museum Association and other groups interested in the history of the local community. Can you tell me how you got involved with that and sort of the history of that?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Sure can. I retired in ’89. And then as I said, I went back to work on a part-time basis. But during that period, the Environmental Impact Statements had been written, and the mission at Hanford was changing from production to cleanup. All the documents and all the philosophy that was being disseminated was, we were going to tear everything down and dispose of everything in the Project. I was the representative to the Tri-City Technical Counci</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">l. It was a group of only local affiliate—all local agent—sections or groups from the technical society’s engineering—civil, mechanical, electrical, nuclear, women’s organizations—all the technical organizations had what they called a Tri-City Technical Council. And we met monthly and addressed the issues for technology dissemination or issues that might affect the community from what we might recommend or so forth. From that group, we learned—we knew what the DoE was getting into, transition-wise into the cleanup of the site. They were going to tear everything down. And we said, well, we don’t want that to happen to some of these historic facilities. The B Reactor, for example, was the world’s first production reactor. And it was very consequential from the history, both of our nation and the world, as far as that. And also the kick-off for nuclear power. So we said, we ought to do something about that. So we formed a committee. I was one of the people of that committee. And we met in July of 1990, was our first meeting. We talked about an organization and how we might form a group that would lead toward the preservation of B Reactor. We </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">decided to form an association. So we had an attorney draw up our bylaws and we formed an organization called the B Reactor Museum Association. We got our state corporate action—I forget what word they use to describe the initiation of the organization in January of 1991. But I consider the organization being formed in 1990. And our objective was to educate the public about the historical significance of B, and to do what we could to preserve the reactor, to see that it was preserved. To gain access and to develop exhibits and so forth for the exhibits. So that was where we started, was way back in 1990. And all during the decade of the ‘90s, we were meeting and fighting with the Department of Energy because they had milestones after milestones that were established on the cleanup and disposal of all the reactors. B was put into the list later on, but it was always on the list for cocooning, as all the reactors would be. We got those milestones extended over the years. And finally, with persuasion and meeting with legislators, Sid Morris and I met with Sid Morris and—I don’t remember the year now, but it was one of the first times that he was sympathetic for the theme that we preserve the historical relic. And of course, later on Doc Hastings. We had many meetings and persuasions with all the legislators. Of course, Cantwell and Murray got on board over the years. It later progressed into the fact that we want to have a study to see if the Parks Service could preserve it. One time during the late ‘70s, I believe it was, several people thought that the REACH would be the only chance of preserving the B Reactor. They would be the ones that would sponsor the tours and provide for the access and so forth. I said, no, I said, I don’t believe that. I said, I think we want to get the Parks Service involved because I don’t know that even the REACH is going to have the muscle to do it. So we got meetings with the legislators and we got a study authorized for the Parks Service study. That was after two or three years of trials and tribulations. It was finally approved. When the Parks Service first came out—you’re probably aware of the fact that they didn’t have—they just had Los Alamos as the sole main site for the park. And we said, that would never sell. It had to include all the sites: Oak Ridge, Los Alamos and Hanford. So they revised their study and made it a three-site park. It was eventually approved and then later legislation—Doc Hastings and Cantwell got the park legislation authorized. BRMA of course has been involved—has been the agency chipping at their heels all the way through all this. </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">We finally got credit for it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> For many years, they didn’t really recognize BRMA as the organization that made it happen, but I think we had an awful lot to do with what made it happen.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Were you ever associated with any of the other local history-related groups?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, yes. We were affiliated with the CREHST museum. We worked with them and the REACH also.</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> But we were the ones that were pushing—BRMA—the B Reactor specifically. We still have a lot of partnerships. We had memorandums of understanding with DoE and the CREHST and with—I guess we don’t have one with the REACH but we still meet with them. Matter of fact, they’re working on this new exhibit for the Cold War exhibit. Of course they’ve got—there’s four of us from BRMA that are on those meetings, but there’s a lot of other community leaders involved, too, obviously. And that was what happened is we were the—BRMA was the organization that was in the trenches early on. But later on, the whole community and the region and the legislators all got on board. So there was a lot of emphasis and support for getting it preserved and getting it converted, or made into a national historic park. </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">Have you seen the plaque out there at B Reactor that says we’re the ones that initiated the plan to preserve </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> So, yeah, I’m quite proud of that. I was one of the founding members of the organization.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Why did it matter to you?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, it’s important, I think, to preserve the history. It’s a significant part of the nation’s history. And if it’s going to be educational for the—a good place for the students, the young kids to come up and learn what the nuclear industry’s all about. I still say—and I’ve said for twenty years—that—I don’t know how many years down the road it’s going to be, but I think nuclear power’s going to be a major source of energy. Commercial electrical as well as all the other fields—medical and research. It still has an important place to play in our total nation’s history, I think. And we need to know how it started and what problems it caused. Let’s not generate those again.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: What would you—</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: So that’s the story that’s going to be told in the park, and I think a lot of people—that’s some of the emphasis. People come out and see the comments in the paper, all the negative comments. Well, that’s true, but the story’s still there and needs to be told.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford or living in Richland during the Cold War?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I don’t know. It was a challenge, I guess. The success—I’m glad that we developed the bomb rather than Hitler. Like how Fermi said, he said when he was working on fission in Italy in the late ‘30s—the 1930s, yes. He always said he was eternally grateful that he didn’t learn how to control fission then. He said if he had </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">have</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">, Hitler would have started the war with them, rather than us ending the war with them. So I think they need to know what the conditions were at the time that the Manhattan Project was built and what the world was undergoing at the time.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: What else should I be asking about? What else is there that we should discuss?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: I don’t know! I think I pretty well spilled everything I know. Unless—I don’t know. I could mention about my—as you know, I was not here during the Manhattan Project. It was over when I came in 1951. My wife and her family was a different story. They came with DuPont in 1944. So her dad was a DuPont employee and he came out here at that time and saw the conditions in employment problems that they had at that time. He was a machinist and had actually directed the tech shops out there for many years. So he probably—that family has more history of the Manhattan Project than I do. Mine is just history. It was—I’ve had an interesting career and I guess I’ve enjoyed it here and it’s been a wonderful place to live. I think it will continue to be if we have people that keep our city from growing into something that it shouldn’t be. [LAUGHTER] But I guess I don’t have any new subjects to talk about unless you have new questions.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: I think—that’s my list for now, but thank you so much for being here.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, it’s been a pleasure.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: All right, great.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Tom Hungate</span>: I had a question.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Please.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Hungate</span>: One of the jobs you had—you had a wide variety of jobs; all of them sound fascinating to me. </span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Oh, they’re interesting, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Hungate</span>: One caught my ear, because I’ve seen these. Tell me what it was like when you said you worked on the K Reactors to lay—you said you were laying up the block. Tell—describe what that process was.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I wasn’t involved in that deeply as a lot of the fellows were. I can’t remember his name right now, but the primary engineer that had the graphite technology. That graphite was machined in the 101 Building. Well, actually the old reactor’s was in the old 101 Building in White Bluffs. They built a </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">new building, the 2101 Building in the 200 East Area which was specifically for the graphite machining and layup—test layups. Those blocks were built to very tight tolerances. The graphite came in in square blocks from the manufacturers and they had to be machined to the final configuration. Those tolerances were very, very tight, like plus or minus two mils or five mils at the most. The blocks were basically four-and-three-quarters inches by four-and-three-quarters inches by 40-some inches long—the main block. After they were machined to very close tolerances, they were test stacked in the 2101 Building, laid up ten tiers to be sure that the tolerances of the assembly were precise. And from there they were packaged on pallets in sequence that they would go in, in reverse sequence, so when they took them off they were ready to be stacked up. And then they were shipped—brought into the reactor vessel, lowered down into the open process area in the center part of the core and pulled off the pallets and just stacked, piece by piece. There’s pictures available that you see of the old reactors. There may be some of K Reactors too, I don’t know, but show inside the reactors when they’re laying up with the blocks. Of course everybody’s in whites. Your cleanliness control’s very important. And of course, obviously, sequence was very, very important, to have all the blocks in there. But from my perspective, I just watched—I wasn’t doing the work, I was just part of the process that was putting them in there. It was very closely controlled and very temperature controlled—well, no, I don’t know about the temperature. The building was under limited temperature control. But the cleanliness was strictly controlled, and the workers of course had been assigned with each pallet that came in, they knew where it went and how it was to be laid. But that was the same process that was used in all the reactors for graphite layup. But that’s amazing, the way they built those things. You have all the penetrations, like—I can’t give you the numbers. K Reactors were bigger than the old original reactor. The o</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">riginal reactor had 2,004 process tubes. You probably all know the story of that, too. [LAUGHTER] But what I started to say was, the alignment of the holes in the blocks, of course, had to line up with the holes of the penetrations of front and rear faces precisely when they put them in. So it was like putting a watch together on a 40-foot-square [LAUGHTER]—40-foot cube. Very precise work.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Were there any mistakes?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Pardon?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: Did you ever see any mistakes?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, no, but if there were they were corrected as they went, because they had two or three levels of inspection verified that they were going in properly. There may have been some, I don’t know. I was not in direct control of that job. I was more on the K </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">Reactor,</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> I just was in oversight. I don’t remember what my position was at that time, but—the B Reactor, for example, you know what happened there when they started it up? It died because of the xenon poison. They didn’t have enough neutron flux levels to override that poisoning effect. That’s when they had to add the additional fuel channels outside the original 1,500 that they had that the physicist said was adequate to drive the reactor. So that was an interesting job. They had to—the later reactors, they had more knowledge of </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">what the requirements were. So the design wasn’t—it didn’t create a problem on initial startup like B Reactor did.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: We were trying to outline or highlight—what sort of innovations came out of Hanford, what sort of inventions did you see—what new knowledge or techniques did you see created at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, there again, you need to talk to the physicists and chemists and people that were in the fuel design areas. There were so many changes made to the fuel designs. They went from—of course these were only appli</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">cable to the graphite reactors the modern fuel originally were eight inches long when the distortion that occurred in the graphite, that was because of the structure change due to the radiation in the graphite. The channels were distorted to the point where some were so crooked that the eight-inch channel—the fuel wouldn’t go through the channel. SO they went to four-inch people—four-inch long fuel assemblies in some of those bad channels. And then of course another knowledge was the design of fuel assembly, you went from strictly external core where they just had an annulus of water around the outside cooling the fuel assembly. It went to a center core; they had internal cooling—a flow channel through the center of the element. But as far as the physics of the elements, they went from totally natural uranium, originally 238, all naturally derived with 0.7% 235. They went to some enrichment in the reactors to increase the power level. But there </span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"> physics changes all along, as far as being able to control and just knowledge of impurities and what the effects were in the nuclear physical—the physics involved in the reactor. But of course, then the Breeder Program, we didn’t talk about that. There’s a lot of advancements made there. FFTF was a marvelous machine and it produced a lot of new information from greener technology. That FFTF was—I spent ten years on development—seven on development and three on construction, so. But I wasn’t—I’m not a physicist and wasn’t into the technology as much as the people—I was more into construction, design and construction.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: A lot of knowledge there, too, that you—hands-on knowledge.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Well, I always pride myself on being able to fix problems. We had a lot of things on assembly or putting the stuff together that just—problems or interferences or arrangements that weren’t thought of in design that we were able to resolve in the field, and that’s why I got into—I’ve been building houses for Habitat now for the last 15 years. [LAUGHTER] It’s a little different from putting reactors together, but I get a lot of comments from the instruction people in Habitat. This is not a reactor; we don’t need to have those tolerances. [LAUGHTER] But I say if you make it right, it looks a lot nicer and it goes together better.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">O’Reagan</span>: All right, I guess that’s the list of questions I’ve got. I guess we’ll end it once again.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX9056486"><span class="TextRun SCX9056486"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ballard</span>: Okay, well, appreciate.</span><span class="EOP SCX9056486"> </span></p>
</div>
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Douglas O' Reagan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Del Ballard
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:52:34
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
249 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
321 Building
400 Area
200 East Area
2101 Building
101 Building
C Reactor
B Reactor
K Reactor
High Temperature Lattice Test Reactor
Engineering Test Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
Fuels and Materials Exam Facility
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1951-2016
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1951-1989
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Morris, Sid
Hastings, Doc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Del Ballard
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Del Ballard conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland.
Nuclear instruments & methods
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2/18/2016
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-08-10: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
101 Building
200 East Area
2101 Building
300 Area
321 Building
400 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
Engineering Test Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
Fuels and Materials Exam Facility
General Electric
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
High Temperature Lattice Test Reactor
K Reactor
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd83f3c4d7f86b6e52d6cbf8bf71d5112.jpg
e7da9ff9782316d22c5ae28c305ce461
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e0756e3663c4eed74b608601031114e.mp4
7aec6edb4ebd55efc217150d9f8e2d36
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jerry Yesberger
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796">
<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span>Jerry Yesberger</span></span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I go by Jerry Yesberger, Jerry, J-E-R-R-Y, and then Yesberger, Y-E-S-B-E-R-G-E-R.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">All right.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Thank you. My name's Robert Bau</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">man, and today's date is December 9</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX169569796">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus o</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">f Washington State University,</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Tri-Cities. So Jerry, let's start maybe by having you tell us when you first arrived in the area, what brought you to Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. Well, I was born and raised in Colorado. Went to University of Denver, and I graduated with a BS degree in 1950. And let's see here. Then I worked for a short time in Colorado, mainly because I wanted to come back from the state of Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">to the state of Washington. I was in the service from '43 to the end of '45. And I spent some time in the Seattle area and everything, and I really liked it. And so when I got back to Colorado, I applied for jobs with Sta</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">te of Washington and everybody. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Then there was an opening at Hanford. And at that time, everything here was General Electric company, as you probably already know. There </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> no contractors other than GE, and they ran the community. And everything</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">there wasn't anything other than GE here. And my first job at Hanford, which lasted about five years, was in the public health department, which we had most of our activity concerned for the community here, rather than the site, although there were some activities during that that we were asked to perform, such as</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—oh, </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I can remember that I'd been out to the site for some things to do with health matters and so on that I was aske</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">d to do the work on, and I did. And after about four, four-and-a-half</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> years, the city became a city away from General Electric company, and I wanted to stay with Hanford. So I applied</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">well, I don't remember how exactly I got there, but the radiation pr</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">otection department in Hanford L</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">aboratories at that time. And again, this was a time when everything was one site. There </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> no contractors other than General Electric</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">offered me</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> a job in radiation protection. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And my radiation protection time lasted an awful long time, because I retired</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> in</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> early</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">oh, gosh. Say, it was 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">but anyway, I had 36 years' service.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> And my fir</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">st job was out here in the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">rea, and GE at that time gave new people an awful lot of training. And I was trained as a health physicist. And I spent, oh, gosh, the first few months training. And I spent, oh, gosh</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">they had a project here called 558 Project, and what it did was go through the old reactors, all of the old reactors and repla</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ced the tubing in the reactors. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And each one of these assignments lasted, oh, three to four </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">months. So we started out in B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">eactor and finished there. And my job was I had a crew of radiation monitors working for me, and we worked shift work, because there was a big, big construction job. And it took about three to four months in each of the old reactors out there to go through these,</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> replace the tubing, and so on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">S</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">o I followed those from B to C R</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">eactor to 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">DR to 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">H to 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">F doing the same thing, ess</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">entially, because we went through</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> there. And then following that time, I went</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> back into 200 West A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">rea, where I worked on projects and so on. And rather than work</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I didn't have radiation monitors work for me then, but I had always assigned projects myself to work on. And I did that in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I have worked in every area on the project out here, with the exception of FFTF. I did not work, and I did not have an office there. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">But every other </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">area I had an office and these things.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> So it was kind of really a broad</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> orientation program and so on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I want to back up just a little bit. In the service, I was in the Coast Guard. And this was from '43 to '46. And I was a pharmacist's mate, and again, the training was real, </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">real</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> good. And the last year or so, I was on a ship, USS Aquarius, and it was an attack cargo ship. And our job was to take troops. We had Marines that we had aboard, and we had training to have them land on something. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">nd boy, they really trained us. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">To make a long story short, we got an assignment, and we knew we were going to move our ship. But we didn't know where or what for. But it turned out it was that they were preparing to invade Japan with troops. And I never saw so many ships in my life, where we all had troops, and we were ready to train. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">d we practiced getting on these</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> landing barges, and, of course, I was a medic, so </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I had to go in with the troops. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">But I never had any real active duty due in that time, prior to that time, because I was always out doing these other things. But we were ready to go in, and so we had actually moved into where we would make our move, and guess what. The Nagasaki bomb was dropped. Well, of significance there is the plutonium on that bomb was made at Hanford. So that was really an interesting aspect of it, and I've always been so, so, so, so interest</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ed in that aspect of the thing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, shortly after that, the war was over, and everybody was discharged. And then that's when I came back and went from there, like I said, prior to this. But I thought that was an interesting aspect of this whole thing. So I worked for the General Electric Company for about five years in radiation protection doing all of these things I've been telling you all about. And again, I had ver</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">y, very, very good assignments. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Probably my most treasured assignment was I was the health physicist for biology, out in the 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-F A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">rea. And I spent a year out there, and that was because of all the animals</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">the pigs and the </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">dogs and ev</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">erything, and my job was to write</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> radiation procedures for them to do where the monitor and I had rad</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">iation monitors reporting to me </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">out there duri</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ng that time. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, following that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I don't know how this developed, but the Atomic Energy Commission, which it was at that time, got my name, and they asked me if I would be interested in federal employment. So in the 1</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX169569796">st</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> of January, 1960, I switched jobs from the General Electric Company to the Atomic Energy Commission. And my job, there it turned out that I was a headquarters person, because we were doing what they call compliance inspection of people that are used in the state of Washington, Alaska, and Washington. Anybody that had a license for radioactive material, they had to be inspected.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> I was one of these inspectors. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And it was a very, very interesting job. It involved a tremendous amount of travel, however. And we were always</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">when I went up to Alaska several times to inspect people, and there were only for us in this whole division, by the way.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> So there was only two of us that made any inspections. And so I liked it. I like it, because I like people. But I worked at that, and it turned out that we were called Region 8 Division of Compliance, and it consolidated with Region 5 in California. So I </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">didn't want to go to California. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">o I was offered a job with Atomic Energy Commission here in the Richland operations office, and I stayed there until I reti</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">red for my service. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">But I was with</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">most of this time, by the way,</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> where I was transferred,</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> I was in the health and safety division at RL. And at that time, there was no</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">we had one manager for this whole site at Hanford. We didn't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> like t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">hey do now, one on for the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">rea, and all this kind of stuff. So we had our own health and safety division, so our entire</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">everything we d</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">id was associated with Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And so that's where I finished my career in 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">with the federal government. I did work, however, two years after retirement for a company called </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span class="SpellingError SCX169569796">MacTech</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">, and they were a contractor to DoE to work on specific problems and so on. And I worked with them for a couple of years. And I also worked on the employee compensation program for about a year, and then finally retired.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">That's kind of it in a nutshell. I hope I didn't confuse you.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: No, n</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">o. I do want to go back and </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ask a couple of questions</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. So when you first came to Hanford in 1950, what was your first impression of the area?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well it was a shock. Number one, I had never been in eastern Washington in my life. I got a job offer, and I thought it might </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">look like Seattle, but it didn't! [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> So that's my impression. But I wouldn't trade this area for the whole state of Washington now. I love it. We raise</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">d</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> our family here, and I'm a big booster of it.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">When you first arrived, where did you live?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, my first housing was a dorm for about three months, and then we mo</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ved into a B house, which was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">duplex. And we lived right across from Lewis and Clark School here in Richland, and we lived in there for a year or two. Then they sold the houses here, and a fellow that I worked with down here, he didn't want to stay here, so he was living in a ranch house, which</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> I bought. And I'm still there. [LAUGHTER] And we live on Torbett</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> here in Richland, and we've been here ever since. We had one child that was born in Denver, and then our other three, and we finally had a girl, which I was so happy for. I love girls. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And she lives here, by the way. And she's the only one that lives here, and she's a special education teacher for the handicapped at Richland School. That's what she got her degree in. And she loves the work, but I couldn't do it.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you remember how much you paid for that house?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796">
<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">We paid about $6,500. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">We sure did. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">nd prior to that, they furnished the oil, the painters, everything that was here was done for us.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you remember what your rent was on the B house?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yeah, it was about $30 a month.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: $30 a month.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: Yeah!</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you have any other memories of the community in the 1950s, what it was like at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, yeah, somewhat. One of the things that mystified me was that we lived in Richland, but blacks could not live in Kennewick. They would not rent to</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">you couldn't buy a house in Kennewick if you were black. And that always, I thought, was unreasonable, because we had several blacks t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">hat worked with us in the AEC here</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> that were wonderful. And I still don't have any</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I love them all. I like everybody.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So when you were AEC, they weren't doing the hiring of African Americans there?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">No, they hired them. Oh, yeah, AEC, there was no question on that with the government, but boy, you couldn't live here. And we had several blacks in our division, and it worked out great. No, the community</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">do you live</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I mean, do you folks live</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> here? </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, when we got here, there wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">s nothing north of Van Giesen</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. Nothing. And so boy, did we see that grow.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, I imagine you’ve seen a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> change and grow</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">th</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: The week we got here—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">well, let's see. It was about</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I lived here for about, well, maybe three months in the dorm, until we got housing for my wife in that B house. And it was great, the idea of that housing.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yeah. What was the dorm like?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I didn't have any problem. Of course, I missed my family. We had a boy at that time</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> living in Colorado, and he now lives in Snohomish. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">nd again, we had the big army camp in North Richland, where we had just thousands of trailers and everything. And that was quite a sight to see.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So you said you first job was working for the health </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">department, or public health?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, it was the health and safety. Yes, it wasn't the health department at that time, but it included their functions.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">What </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">sorts of things—that first job, what sorts of</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> things did you do?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, we used to do all kinds of inspections, of course</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. But restaurants,</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> schools, the water department in Richland, just broad health things that required health overviews. So that was the job.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">You were working for GE, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">How many people were working in the health at that time?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Oh, we probably had 20 or 25. We had a doctor that was in charge of us.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And then you said you</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> went into radiation protection, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yes, from that function. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">d the main reason is because GE—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">went to a community, rather than being GE</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">managed. We had to elect a city councilman. It was a city.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you remember what your thoughts were about that, about Richland becoming an independent city at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">No, I think we all accepted it. It was good. Obviously, when you work like that, you're interested in benefits. And I think that swayed a lot of it for me to stay with GE.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So when you moved to radiation protection then, you said you had to have a lot of training at that point?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Oh, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And for the jobs you were doing, did you have to wear special protective clothing at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Oh, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Can you describe that? Sort of what sorts of things you had to wear.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, basically, they're just white coveralls as the one here, and they're still using the same white coveral</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ls out there, just like we did.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">How about security at Hanford? What was that like when you first came?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, I think it was very tight. It was very tight. They really stressed security and safety. Safety was</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">in my estimation, my experience, General Electric was the most, the best contractor I ever worked for in my life, because they had emphasis on safety an</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">d health and really stressed it, you </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">know. Much better than possibly they did in later years.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So was there sort of ongoing training for safety?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Oh, yes. Very, very, very, very</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">GE was very safety-conscious, and they were so good to their employees. You never read anything about anything happening in the newspaper or anything like that. They got it to their employees right away, and it was a pleasure. And the rest was a pleasure too, but not like</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I miss GE.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And you talke</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">d about, was it the 558 project?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yeah. </span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: With </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">changing the tubing. So what was your job? I know you went to each different reactor as they did that. What sort of things were you doing for that?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">My particular job was I was what they called the radiation supervisor. And so I had about eight radiation monitors with me all the time during each out</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">age</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">, and we went from one to the other. And their job was everything had to be monitored just like they do now, in and out of the areas, and move it, and take it to disposal areas, and everything.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So was it moni</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">toring the employees’ exposure rates</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yes, monitoring the employees and the jobs that they're doing, because we had to develop the radiation work procedures, which they were working at. And this would vary during the whole outage. And they were very tight at first, and there was any grinding or anything or heat or anything, you had to have special requirements for that.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">of </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">the different jobs you had and the different parts of the site that</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> you worked at, wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">s there a job or something you did that you found the most challenging, and/or something that was the most rewarding of the things you did</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> at Hanford</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, probably the most rewarding job I ever had here was Hanford, was I was here with Richland operations offi</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ce, and during the americium</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> accident in 1955, I think it was, and my job, at that time, was</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">as a matter of fact, I got involved in that partic</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ular incident at about 5:00</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> in the morning after it happened at 4:00. And I went out with the doctor, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> fellow by the name of Dr. Brei</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">tenstein, and he and I went out and met Mr</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. McClu</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">skey out in the area, before they got me i</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">nto the decontamination center. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And my job was re</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ally I represented RL in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> whole aspect of the care of that patien</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">t during the months and months that he was here. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ecause he </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">was confined, couldn't leave, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">everything. And my job was to</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">as a matter of fact, I came right out to see him every single morning that he was in there, and we became very, very, very, very good friends. And it turned out I</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> was a pallbearer when he died. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And it was a rewarding experience, because to begin with, he was such a great guy, and he accepted all of this and was never down, but he couldn't hardly see. He was grossly contaminated. And my job was to keep people at RL down here, the Richland operations office informed of what the situation was with him, and to notify headquarters, keep them informed, because it was a real significant accident, the worst we've ever had at Hanford.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So you mentioned t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">hat he had suffered probably with his vision.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">What other sort of injuries </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">or--</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, what happened, he</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> had put his hand in this glove</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">box out in 234</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-5 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">uilding, and it exploded, and came out and hit him in the face. So he was just so grossly contaminated, and he had to have a radiation monitor with him every hour that he was down there. And I became so familiar with that accident and everything, and I felt it was the most rewarding for me to have something like that to do.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you remember about how long he had to stay hospitalized?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, yes. He was down there for probably a year.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> A year.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> We got hot food. It was provided to him by</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Kadlec</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Hospital down here, and he had a nurse with him down there at all times. And his wife was living down there with him also.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And where was he then? Was he at the hospital, or was he-</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, there was facility at the back of</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Kadlec</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Hospital, which is no longer there. And this facility was called Emergency Decontamination Center, and he was there. They had beds and everything in there, showers and everything. And it was a specific facility for that case, to tell you the truth. And it's since been torn down, which I think was a mistake, myself, because if you ever had another one, you couldn't have been a better facility for it.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">You mentioned you wer</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">e in close with him, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> were a pallbearer at his funeral. How long did he live?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">He lived about, I think, about three years. And then he died of a heart attack. It wasn't radiation. But he certainly had radiation in him that would cause cancer if he had lived too much longer.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Are there any other incidents or</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> sort of</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> unusual events that happened when you were working at Hanford that kind of stand out in your mind at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, I happened to be a trained accident investigator, and I had to go to school and learn all this kind of stuff. And I probably investigated more accidents than anybody ever has at Hanford. But we</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">’ve had fatalities, and we had big </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">spreads of contamination. We had several things that cause it, plus, we also responded to off-site accidents. And I had what we call a radiological assistant team that reported </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">to me, and I went out on those where t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">here were trucks that w</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ould spill radioactive material, where t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">here was</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">this is kind of a little odd. I probably shouldn't even mention it, but you'll appreciate it. But we had a truck of uranium billets overturn on Lolo Pass, and these billets weigh 15, 20 pounds, but there's hundreds of them in this truck. Those things went all over the highway up here in Montana. I responded to that one. And one of the things that I</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> was never trained on was guns. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">But, well, we were up there probably about a week recovering all of those billets that spilled over, because they all had to be accounted for. It was very strict on that. But we were out from town out on this pass someplace, and somebody had to sit in the truck with a gun at night to make sure nothing came, if anybody came from the</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> highway or anything like that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, they gave me a big shotgun. I don't </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">even </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">remember what kind of gun. I couldn't have sho</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">t that damn thing if I'd had to! [LAUGHTER] And I still can't! [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> But that was kind of humorous. But we couldn't have the guy that could shoot be there all the time. So we all spent about three or four hours a night out there by ourselves.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">How long were you out there?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">We were out there a couple of weeks. But I responded to lots of</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">the worst probably the most one that I responded to as the team captain was we had a spread of contamination at the University of Washington at the reactor. And I actually, again, there was some plutonium that came from Hanford that they were analyzing up there, and there was a spill. And the reactor at the University of Washington was greatly contaminated </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">with plutonium. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">And I had a team. I had three or four people that went up with me to respond to that, and we were there two or three weeks there helping them get that all in, and we did. We got it all cleaned up, but there </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> some minor depositions. But boy, if that thing would happen now, the way it's anti-nuclear, it would be horrible. But this happen</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ed</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> to be in spring break when all o</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">f the kids were away. So we</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> lucked out on that on that thing, but we all had to wear protective clothing that two or three weeks while we were doing that. But I was the team leader on that particular accident.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you remember what the time period was when that happened? What year that might've been?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Oh, gosh, I can't remember that. But I responded to probably 30 or 40 spills and so on that were </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">all over the country in Oregon and Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. And then we had spills in Oregon that we had to go down to, because at that time, the state didn't have people for that function to overlook at that. So we did their work for them. And I did that fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">r, like I say, </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">about four or five years.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So did you usually respond if it was like material that had come from Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">No, it could be anything.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Could’ve been anything, okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Could be anything. I loved the job, and I loved the people, because I like people. But it was so much travel. I was always gone from Hanford.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So that was probably one of the more challenging aspects for you is just all the travel.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yeah, it was. We had young children, and it seemed like I couldn't go out and come back, there wasn't a million things broke.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> So that's the way it went.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I wanted to ask you about President Kennedy's visit in 1963, if you went to that that day. Do you have any memories about that?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, I got two memories. I got a call after that article was in the paper from the Seattle</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">no, she was from, I think, a public relations firm down here, one of them, that asked me about it. So I told them everything I knew. So I told them about this one friend of ours that happened to get up and shake Kennedy's hand. Well, of course, they were interested more in that than were what I had to say.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So the big article in the paper, he gives his report. He didn't even mention my name.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> No, I didn't care. But my son</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">in-law was there when they called too, and they quoted him in the article and everything. But poor me. No, I wasn't looking. I wasn't really looking for my name to be any place.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Yes, I was out there. It was, of course, it was in the fall when he was here, not long before he was assassinated. But it was such a hot day, and I think all of Richland went out to i</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">t. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">There was just car after car going out to that area, and some of them boiling over from the heat and all this kind of stuff. But it was a very, very excellent program.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So as you look back at</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> your years working at Hanford—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">how many was it?</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> Thirty--</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: Gee!</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Something like that?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">About 36. It was 36.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, as you look back at those 36 years, overall, how would you assess Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, I thought i</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">t was excellent and very safety-</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">conscious. It couldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> have—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">in</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> my aspect—</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">been a safer place to live in my life than I did here at Hanford. And like I say, I worked in all the reactors. I worked in the separation plants and everything, and it was interesting. I think it was rewarding, the fact that you could clean up stuff. So it makes me real</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">we had such excellent facilities out here at that time. But all those buildings are gone and torn down, and they could've been used for so many things now. And I think that was a really big mistake. But they didn't ask me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, i</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">s there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to share or talk about?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, you know, I don't know. I think you might want to look at my submittal in the Parker Foundation on that thing and see what I said at that time and the answer to their qu</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">estions and so on. It went well. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">nd I just feel so fortunate to have been here all this time and be so lucky and still be here. I'm the luckiest guy in the world, and I'm ve</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">ry happy that I was at Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I've got several awards while I was here for my work. One of them I do want to show you, because I'm reall</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">y probably real pleased</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">, but I was elected a fellow in the National Health Physics Society. I received awards, several from</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">—I w</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">as president of our local chapter of the Health Physics Society. I received several awards from those people. I was really well thought of while I was here at Hanford. And I was real pleased.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796">
<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">So were you involved in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">he Parker Foundation as well</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Yes, I've been on it since</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I still am.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796">
<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Do you want to talk about t</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">hat, like how you got involved with </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">that?</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I was asked</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> to join it by Dr. Bair</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">, who is still there. And I</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> know you know about Ron Kathren. Everybody knows Ron Kathren</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">. Well, </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">I play cribbage with Ron Kathren</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"> every Wednesday at my house now. We play cribbage. I just think he's such a great person, and such a great health physicist, that I was so lucky to know him. And they asked me to join, and I've been real active, until this business with my wife, which I took a leave of absence. And I haven't been able to go there, because I can't leave my wife. But I still pay my dues and go there, and it's been a good organization.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">Well, I want to thank you for coming today in this cold weather and coming and letting us talk to you. And then maybe we could get a shot of your award that you brought in.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX169569796">
<p class="Paragraph SCX169569796"><span class="TextRun SCX169569796"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Yesberger</span>: Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX169569796">.</span><span class="EOP SCX169569796"> </span></p>
</div>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:39:12
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
195 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
200 West Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
100-DR
100-H Area
100-F Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1950-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1950-1970
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Bair, Bill
Kathren, Ron
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jerry Yesberger
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Jerry Yesberger conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Richland (Wash.). Public Schools
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/9/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-18: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100-DR
100-F Area
100-H Area
200 West Area
300 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
-
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ad0e3f5431004fd43548afb7264e924a
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc0f13b96fadf7bb738c566537000019d.mp4
1271c49a08b7d223b0499f5b78e53ec9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Trent, Frank
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Trent_Frank</p>
<p>Frank Trent: Well I don't know.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: I just let people tell their stories is really what the primary thing is. I have some questions to try and help it along a little, but--So we're going?</p>
<p>Man one: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, great. All right. So maybe before I ask any questions, if I could have you say your name and spell it for us.</p>
<p>Trent: Okay. My name is Frank Trent. And I live in Richland, Washington.</p>
<p>Bauman: And the last name is T-R-E-N-T?</p>
<p>Trent: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. Great. And my Name's Robert Bauman. And we are conducting this oral history interview on February 12<sup>th</sup> of 2013 on the campus at Washington State.</p>
<p>Trent: '14.</p>
<p>Bauman: What's that? '14.</p>
<p>Trent: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Thank you. You would think by February I would have figured--</p>
<p>Trent: You want to start over?</p>
<p>Bauman: No, we're good. I'll just say 2014. It's still this form that has it. There we go. So I wonder if we can start by maybe just telling us what brought you to Hanford. How you came here? What brought you here? And maybe your initial impressions of the place?</p>
<p>Trent: Well, I first came here in 1950, in the winter of 1950. And we came over the pass. At that time, it was—there was no Snoqualmie Pass at the time. It was the one out on 410 highway going over the mountains. Closes every winter.</p>
<p>Bauman: Not White Pass, huh?</p>
<p>Trent: Nope.</p>
<p>Bauman: I don't know.</p>
<p>Trent: Maybe it'll come to me. Anyway, we came over the pass in the back of a Deuce and a Half truck. And it was a whole company of us. And pre-military set up here. And we came in and there was snow about 200 feet in the air where they plowed it often, blew it into the mountains. And all you could see is walls of snow on both sides. But anyway, we came on in down here and lived in a pup tent. You don't know what those are probably. You do?</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Trent: And two people teamed up. And here you had something about the size of a blanket. And it was thinner than a blanket. It was called a--the material was made like a tent material. And we called them pup tents. There was two people. And each person carried a half of it. And then when you went out into the fields or combat or wherever, you set that tent up. And that's where you lived. Well, it was pretty cold here. And we wound up burning anything we can get a hold of. It's a wonder we didn't kill ourselves. And these little pup tents, they only had a little opening you could make, or you'd get too much stuff in there--air, cold air.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember any specific things that you burned?</p>
<p>Trent: Show polish. Anything that would get heat. Paper, shoe polish, anything. And that was the worst I guess. And we had one guy freeze to death. I don't know. It was cold. I started driving a water truck. And I wound up in the back of the water truck. It was a Dodge, 3/4 ton Dodge pickup. And it had a cover on it. So I slept in there. And during the night, the water container froze and busted. And I got water all over there and it froze. And I was sleeping in ice. [LAUGHTER] Me and another guy. But that was the shock of it when you got here was there was nothing here but desert. There was a few trees, but people hadn't started raising too many trees at that time. If they did, they weren't very big. That was my--and when we went out, we went out on the Project and stayed out there for three weeks. They had four groups. One group was off all the time. And the other three was covering around the clock. And we set up 120 millimeter gun emplacements, set up in a diamond formation. And then off to the side in the openings of the diamond formation, there was four 50 caliber machine gun nests. And we could fire. And we did. We fired tracers, and every so often, a tracer would come out. They were timed so that every so many shells, and then a tracer would come out. That way you could follow that tracer with your—aiming your gun. But they were also hooked up to, at a later time, to the radar. And there was radar guided. Anyway, that was the emplacements. And we had a full crew there 24 hours a day. And we went up to Yakima and took our guns with us. Two of them I think is all we took though. They were beginning to set up that firing range up there. And we were doing pretty good at shooting that thing. And evidently, the radar got off a little bit with their calculations. And wound up, we shot the cable off just off the tail end of the airplane. They left. They didn't want any more. They says, we're going and we're ain't coming back. So that's part of it. Anyway, that's the beginnings of my arrival here.</p>
<p>Bauman: Where on the site were you?</p>
<p>Trent: Are you familiar enough with the old Y? You go through the first barricade, then you drive for, I don't know, about halfway to 2 West, 2 East. Maybe not quite that far, but there's a turn off there. Goes back towards, still 2 East, that 2 East area. And then you go on down and pick up 2 West. And we turned off just after that barricade out there at the Y. It may be two miles down from that Y area, there was a turn-off. And there was dirt, gravel and dirt. That's the old military highway road. And we were back in there probably five or six miles. You could see Rattlesnake very plainly from there. And a later time, when they built that road down through there going out to Yakima—Horn Rapids High Road—and at a later time, why, you could see that road and traffic on it from out there. Because I went out there with a group on our 50th military reunion and we made a new visit there. And cars were going by. Then there was no road back there. Anyway, at that time, if the cars that had been there--we were that close to where the highway's at now. There's a big knoll out there, just a rounded hill of sand. And that was between us and the Rattlesnake Mountain. So that'll give you a general location of where we were. It was A Battery, 518th.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. So where were you from originally? Had you ever been to this part of the Northwest before?</p>
<p>Trent: No. I come out of Harlan County, Kentucky. Lot of hills down there, rolling hills, but nothing mountainous like we know them now. Born and raised on a farm. Family of 17—18, counting me. And one mother and father. And we raised everything we could raise to eat ourselves. And the only thing we bought was stuff like staples that you had to have that you didn't grow. My dad was a coal miner, and the older boys actually raised the foods that we needed. Fed the animals, and ate the animals. And then in, let's see, October the 8th, 1949, I and two other guys from that area joined the service. I rode a bus. It was raining, about 6:15 in the morning. Got on the bus and never looked back. We went from there to Harlan and got in a military bus. And they drove us to Corbin, Kentucky. And that's right in there near Knoxville. And from there, we got on the train. We went to Louisville and then to Fort Knox. So that's how I got to that. Then we spent three or four months, I don't remember, in basic training. And then we shipped out in trucks for this side of the mountain, for Washington. Well first, we came out by train. And then we got into buses and trucks and went up to Fort Lewis, and Fort Lewis over here. We were selected as the first group to arrive in the Tri-Cities to help set up.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay. So how long were you at Fort Lewis then?</p>
<p>Trent: Just long enough to not want it. We did a lot of advanced basic training, crawling through mud and dirt and dust. And when you come out of there, you couldn’t see nothing but eyeballs. You was hot and then you put your arm down to crawl forward and then shooting over top of you with tracers. And the dust would puff up and it would stick to you, sweat on your body. So that was an experience.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. So you said when you were out of the site, you were there for about three weeks. Then you'd have a week off, then you’d go back. So in terms of food when you were out on site, what sort of food did you have? If you were in the tents all the time?</p>
<p>Trent: Well at the beginning, before we really got set up, we was eating what you would call combat type rations. They'd come in containers and it was dished out after it was heated up. Our stove was a Bunsen burner under pots and pans. And we’d go through a line and dunk our mess kit in the boiling water and get any germs off of it that way. And then we ate dinner, and then we come back and had another container we dunked it in and brushed it out. And then dunked it in clean boiling water again. So that's how we kept stuff kind of sanitized. And a lot of people got dysentery from it. But mostly, it wasn't—we didn't have it too bad. Food wasn't too bad. And at a later time, after we got to set up, we had a regular mess tent and cooks. And we ate good. Sand in it, but we ate.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you know anything about Hanford before you came here?</p>
<p>Trent: No, and I didn't know anything after I got here. But none of us did. We just knew we was guarding this installation, and we would be on around-the-clock duty. If you were asleep, the alarm sounded, everybody went to their stations. And we had a number of planes come through. And we had to get our big guns on it. And we would track it until they gave us the order to shoot. We only shot one time out there. And that was basically to settle the guns in and orient them so when they shot at something, they got fairly close. Those 120 millimeter shell casings were probably about that long. And the projectile was probably about that long. And they were timed: after you shot one of them into the air, they were timed to the target. And then they blew up. And supposedly it would supposed to knock down anything within a—I think it was 75 yards radius. So it could get anything in four directions. And we come close to getting the target plane. Yeah, it wasn't funny to the pilot, but it was funny to us.</p>
<p>Bauman: So then when you had a week off, where did you go? Did you go to town?</p>
<p>Trent: We had barracks in town. And that's the barracks here in North Richland. If you're coming up George Washington Way going north and you come to that rise in the road, and then you can level and go down toward Battelle. Just as you cleared the top of the road, there was a steam and boiler plant, steam generating plant just off to the left. And then the road that went by that—that was one of the first roads. We generally would turn on that. All of that area back down in there was barracks. And you can still see some of the pedestals that they sat on. And then over on the other side of GW Way there was—no, I guess it's still on the same side. They just add roads dividing the camp. And we were fairly close to a service station over on the highway, highway Stevens if you're going out to Hanford. We were just off of that a little bit—our outfit was. And from there, whoever was ready to go in and go back out, why, we took off in Deuce and a Half trucks. And we'd go out in a convoy and relieve the other outfit that was out there. And while you were gone, your camp was taken over by a new group. And that rotated.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, on sort of a typical day, what might your duties be? What sorts of things might have happened?</p>
<p>Trent: Scavenging. We made trips around out there. They probably figured out what we were doing, but they didn't seem to bother us because we didn't have nothing but tents at first. And so we'd scavenge enough stuff until we could put some stuff together to get in out of the wind. We couldn't get away from the sand though. But we did that and then done our duty. And we went off duty in the late afternoon and after dinner, we was off for the evening unless you got an alarm, an alert. And immediately, whatever you could get on, why you got on, and you got on those guns. Got everything turned on and adjusts your azimuth and elevation, and be ready to fire whatever come through if you were told to fire.</p>
<p>Bauman: So how long did you have just the pup tents? At what point did you [INAUDIBLE]?</p>
<p>Trent: It's probably about two months. And they come in and put up what we called a trip tent. And it's big enough to hold about ten people, five bunks down each side. And then later we put in wooden floors in them, and so we'd raise them up off of the ground a little bit so we wouldn't be sleeping right next to the ground. So, they brought it all out, and we had to put it together.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long were you doing this? How long were at Hanford in this capacity?</p>
<p>Trent: I was out there almost three years, And this discharge here. And by then, I was married and had one kid when I was discharged. Discharged in February of '53. And from that point, I found whatever I could to work at. But it wasn't much for a while. Finally I put in an application for General Electric, and they hired me. And that was my first trip as a civilian out to Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned you got married. Did you meet your wife here?</p>
<p>Trent: Yes. Her dad came in '43. Actually, he came in 1940 out to the Northwest. And he went back to Memphis again. And from that point, he was working just across the border in Arkansas, out of Memphis. And some guy come through, I guess from the government, and put the word out, anybody want to transfer or go move to Washington? We've got a project up there we're building, and we need help. Anybody we can get to go. And he came out with that group and worked out here. And a year later, she came out. Well first off, he came in '40, went back and came back in about '43, in '43. And then he was here about a year, and then the kids came out. They came out by railroad, and no supervision. I think she was 12, my wife, 11 or 12. Her mother had—she would have been 12--because her mother had died earlier, tuberculosis. And she came out, and the rest is history. He stayed here and raised his family and worked at Hanford and wound up--one day, they came in and they had nobody that could really read a blueprint and follow it. And so they come around looking, and somebody said, go see Mac. He'll do that. And that was the beginning of his rise, which didn't go very far. He was some kind of a maintenance supervisor out there. And they come and got him and he said, let's see your prints. And he looked at them a little bit. Yeah, he said, I can build it. So they took him over there and he built the building for them with a crew. But they'd already started building. He had to tear it all down because it was wrong. And then after, I don't know, maybe six months, seven, I was in passing, and went into the drugstore at O’Malley’s—you remember where that was at? Okay. That had a little soda fountain in there. And I went in there and me and another guy and ordered a milkshake. And she said what kind do you want? I says, any kind you got. I don't know, just a milkshake. She figured she'd fix me, so she went back there and made me a suicide milkshake. Everything in the fountain went in it. That drink’s pretty good. So that's where I met my wife, 1950. And we were married in December after that.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's a great story.</p>
<p>Trent: Raised three boys. One of them is a Microsoft jet pilot. Flies for Microsoft. And one of them, well at this particular time, is in Edmonton, Canada—construction manager of some kind, hot spot guy. And the other one, Frank, is working in construction over on the west side. And he is living in Brown's Point in Tacoma, right on the ocean.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. So you mentioned at some point you got a job with GE. What sort of job was that?</p>
<p>Trent: Anything to get on. I started out doing manual labor and mowing lawns. And I probably had about five or six months of that. And then I was transferred to White--not White Bluffs—Riverton. And I was doing maintenance work and oil changes on the railroad engines. And many times you'd have oil clean up to your elbows. And I don't know what they did with the oil. We drained it out into containers, and they disposed of it. Probably illegally, in these days. And from there then I went to work at 2 West. And I worked T Plant, U Plant,--at T Plant 221-T, 224-T, those two plants. And then I worked also, that was T-Plant. And then U Plant, I went to work down there. They needed people down there, so they sent me down there and done the same thing down there in U Plant, because the areas were almost identical in operation. And then the stuff that came out of there went to REDOX I believe. And they run through the procedures there, separating stuff out and boiling it down to what they were really looking for. And so anyway, we handled a lot of powdered uranium in that 224 Building. And after it was centrifuged, the heavy metal uranium powder was thrown out to the sides and stuck to the sides of the centrifuges. And the liquid was settled back down and drained back out and recycled back through I guess. I don't remember exactly the procedure. And we'd ship that uranium out of there and put it in barrels. And it was shipped out, I don't know where it went to. Maybe some of it went to Oak Ridge, I don't know. And then that was in operations. And we worked the hot zones. And they had us when we'd go into one, we'd have the RAMU people. They'd check you in, and when you had up to your limit on exposure, you'd come out. Go in and take samples and clean up in areas that were really hot spots.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you did those sorts of things, what sort of protective clothing did you wear?</p>
<p>Trent: Well, we would go in and change into SWP clothing and hoods. We had our regular shoes and we put covers over the shoes, plastic over the covers. And your pants legs were all taped down so that nothing could get through. And gloves, of course. And it was all taped down. And the last thing that went on was a mask. You had a canister of air. And I think you had somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes and you're out of air. You better be out of there, or at least close enough where you could hold your breath and run to get out of there. Yeah, we worked the hot zones quite a bit. Sometimes we'd have to work until we were triple exposed to get a job done. And then of course we was relieved out of that until we were even with the scale of exposure. So that when you back in, why, they basically had you at zero exposure for starting back up. There was a lot of sitting time, because they had to have the people. And if you didn't keep them there, you didn't have the people to do the jobs. So rather than fire them, they'd put them on clean work. And if they didn't have that, you sat in the lunch room and played cards. Then from there—I went in and later, I went from the 2 West Area to the 100 Areas, and was in power operation there--boilers, refrigeration, air conditioning, and pumping stations that pumped water for the reactors.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you were at several places on site then?</p>
<p>Trent: Mm-hmm. I worked 100 B, C, D, DR, 2 West, not 2 East, but I'd been in 2 East a number of times. 2 West, I think that's about it out there, Riverton of course, at the beginning I was in Riverton. That's the old railroad station that hauled stuff in and out of Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: So of those—of the different places on site that you worked at different jobs that you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most?</p>
<p>Trent: I enjoyed operating equipment--boilers, steam engines, pumping water, of course, electric, diesel generators. We had on our river pump station, we had pumps down there that'd pump 105,000 gallons per minute each of water. And if something happened to those pumps, then the diesels come online automatically. Now the diesel size was the PT boat that John Kennedy used when he was in the service. They were two diesel generators of the same size that came out of the—or were installed in the PT boats. And they were pretty good size. They would pump the same amount of water as the big electric box. The lines, I don't know what size they were now. I seem to remember 100, 102 inches in diameter. Pretty good sized piping. And if something happened, the scram, why, of course, they had to have water and generally pumped through with the diesels if something happened to a pumping station. So you always had backup. There was one incident in the 200 Area's power house. We had a backup generator down there generating electricity to use in case of power outages or whatever. And they were set on automatic standby. And my father-in-law was at that with his crew, was there doing work in that area. And it was in an open, kind of an open area. The showers were in that general area too. Never had a problem with any of those diesel generators. And they were in there eating dinner. They set a row of lockers up to separate the area. And that was where they ate. And that's where they went in and took showers before they went home. Or they come out of hot zone, they still had to take a shower. And they were in there having dinner, and for some unknown reason, nobody hung around. They ate their dinner, and they got up and went out back to the job and whatever they were doing I guess, early. And the generator tripped and came online. There was something wrong with the governor. And a diesel generator when it turns loose like that, and it can't get fuel from one place, it'll get it from another. It went on up to critical speed and blew up. And it embedded metal about three inches into concrete, solid concrete. So that's how bad—it could have wiped out everybody in that room. It wiped the room out. All their lockers and everything, that was gone. But that was one of the incidences that I remember that happened.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you have any idea roughly what time period that might have been?</p>
<p>Trent: Phew, no, I don't. It would've been in the low '50s, early '50s. Because he went to work there in 2 West when I first came here. Yeah, his crew worked 2 West, 2 East. So they rotated around, wherever they were needed. But that happened to be in the 2 West Area where that generator blew up. Nobody was hurt. Pure luck.</p>
<p>Bauman: Earlier when you were talking, you mentioned that when you were in the army stationed out here, you didn't really know anything about Hanford or what was going on?</p>
<p>Trent: Well, we know we were guarding the installations there. And we knew that workers came in by buses and left by buses. And then later years—first you couldn't drive a car out there of any kind other than government. And then later years of course, that was relented and people could drive out there to their area. But mostly we were in and out of there in buses. And we came in nothing but bus to the 1100 Area, which is over here, off of Spangler, south of Stevens. And we came into there and unloaded there in a big parking lot in there while we had our cars parked there. So that's the routine. Everyday, we get up, the buses come through town and picked you up, all you to the 1100 Area. You changed to your area bus and get on there and it'd take you to right straight to your area, and off of there and check you through the security. And the same way when you come out. Security would check you out, you'd get on the bus, they'd haul you home.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was there at some point that you ended up driving your own car out? Or would you take buses?</p>
<p>Trent: I did a couple of times, but it wasn't worth it. There's too much fuel. But fuel was cheap then, compared to now. Still, you had to—and we came out when John F. Kennedy came out here. The whole family went out. And I was at that time working at 100 N Area. And we got 100 N Area up. And I was on duty the night they went critical and put the reactor in operation. That was the first dual purpose reactor, 100 N.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you have any specific memories about when President Kennedy was here? What the day was like, or remember anything about him arriving?</p>
<p>Trent: The only thing I know is we were--they had the place set up for visitors to come in. And they had a lot of chairs. And a lot of it was standing room only because they didn't have enough chairs. They were getting ready to build the Washington Public Power Supply System’s generating system out there. And the pumps, those pumps I swear that they were longer than this room, each pump, steam-generated or steam-powered. And that was 109 N, was that generating place. And people were rotated shift-wise the same way—ABCD was the shifts. And of course, the fourth one was off. And then while that one was off, a spare would come in. So actually it's five crews. It was interesting. I worked water side of it for a lot of years. We had one guy that worked out there that was scared to death of something he couldn't understand. And he could not understand the big piece of equipment operating. And he was scared of it. And one night on duty—our shift was, and the chief engineer said Frank, can you get down to 181 real quick. I says, well, yeah. So anyway I headed out, grabbed the first pickup I could find in the parking area there and drove it down to 181. Both diesels were running backup. Don't know what happened, still don't. Anyways, I found him. He was sitting back in a corner away out of sight of the diesels. He was standing there in a corner shivering, just scared—petrified. So I got him out and put him out in the pickup. And I say you stay out there and let me take care of the problem here. So anyway, I guess I took care of the problem and then got him out there. So I got the generators under control and asserted the diesels under control, put them back on automatic and standby. And then the other pumps of course, got them going in the order I was doing the job. And I went and got him back out there. And when I reported in and wrote the incident up, he came to me, I don't know, very short time thereafter. And he says Frank, I'm going to quit. He said, I'm married, I've got three kids. I can't get into the military. And that's what I want to do. So he said I'm going to divorce my wife and I'm going to volunteer for the Coast Guard. And he did that. And the next thing I know, he put a transfer in from the Coast Guard into the military, army. And they accepted him. So he got into the military even though he was married. And a few years down there, well I guess it was nothing but two or three years, or a year or two. Anyway I got a call from my son who was a warrant officer flying helicopters down in Louisiana, Texas and Louisiana area. But anyway he--I guess, yeah, it was Texas. Killeen, Texas. He said do you know a Dave Eggar? I said, yeah. He said you won't believe this, but he's the guy in charge of training us in these helicopters. [LAUGHTER] And he had went through the school, learned how to fly the helicopters, and wasn't afraid of them at all. And he wound up leading that group that my son was in through their training program. And my son flew choppers down there. He already had his private pilot license. He got that before he got out of high school. And anyway, he spent his time in the military and he started flying with them. Wound up at his own company with two jets and a chopper and a little fixed wing, twin engine plane. And then 9/11 went and wiped him out. His business went to nothing. So then he started with putting his pilot's license out there, his experience in getting letters out. And he got a call one day from Microsoft people and went to work for them. He's still doing it, all over the world.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. I wanted to ask you, you had mentioned when you were in the army here and you would have you week off, you stayed in barracks. Once you got married, what sort of housing did you have?</p>
<p>Trent: The first house we got was a small--I think it was about a 20-foot trailer, used. And a lot of the early Hanford people would move trailers in out there. And added onto them as a matter of fact. But as they had kids in a small trailer, where do you put them? You put a room on it. And that's what we did, we lived in that trailer. And then we lived there up until I was discharged. And then we bought a trailer. And I was working for a guy that didn't like the idea of me buying a trailer. It was a single wide. But it was about, I don't know, probably 50 feet long, somewhere in that. It may not have been that big. It was big enough, it had three bedrooms. And bought the trailer and moved it in and set up in and fat, dumb, and happy. But he didn't like the idea of me working for him who was selling trailers and buying it from somebody else. So he fired me. [LAUGHTER] So that was our first home. And then we were forced to move out of the place out there next to the Battelle area, just south of Battelle. We had to move out of there because I wasn't in the military anymore. When I did go to work for GE, we got a house, prefab. I think it was a--first one was a two-bedroom. And then we got a three-bedroom house. And we lived there until they started selling the town back to people. And I was interested. They set it up in blocks. So they would complete the transfer of one block by contracts to the owner that lived in it. And some of the prices were, for the two bedrooms, were like $2,500. And three bedrooms was just slightly more, like $3,000, $3,200. And I don't think any of them ran over $5,000, any of the homes. And lo and behold, I got an eviction notice. I was laid off in between. And two days after they evicted me and I got out of that house, they sold my block. So I didn't get a house. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, that was kind of how we got started. Finally, I left here and worked down in Colorado for about a year and a half, two years. And put in a transfer back there, a transfer or quit and came back to—I was out here on vacation a week's vacation, ten days I guess. And I dropped by the unemployment office and they said yeah, we'll put you back to work. So anyway, I went down and terminated. Gave them my notice and came back out here and went to work. And I worked there until—see I don't remember now, '50—hmm. Late '60s, because I left the project completely in '68. And I was out there one day and boss came in and said, Frank, he said, I understand you talked to so and so. He’s an instrument guy, a contractor that installed instrumentation and tubing for those instruments. I don't remember his name. And he told you were a job was at. And I said yes, he did. Anyway, he said, did you go down for an interview and talk to those people? And I said no. He says, why don't you do that? I said why? I was working at Battelle. Well, he said, you never know. I said yeah, I can go down and talk to him. I went down and interviewed. Went on back out. Still hadn't heard nothing from him and boss came by again and asked me about it. I said, don't know, just sat in there fat, dumb, and happy waiting for things to happen. And then his boss came down and he says Frank, you take that job if they offer it. And after three months, if you decide you don't like it, you come back and we'll put you right back where you're at. You won't lose no seniority or anything. Lo and behold, it was the beginnings of the university here in North Richland. And I came down here and they put me to work. Punched out construction and—helped punch out construction and get them out here. And got everything in operation and moved the staff in. And the rest is history. I left here in 1995, right at 30 years retirement. With military, I had more than enough time for—I think it was a year and a half. 27 and three-quarters or something like that years--and then of course I had five years of service to attach on so, retired with 30 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you look back at your time looking at Hanford, overall how you assess Hanford as a place to work?</p>
<p>Trent: Well compare that to where I came from, and it was a gold mine. Because we were hand-to-mouth. And we had to raise everything by hand or horses or whatever, and some cows, and raised all of our eats and stuff like that. So, we worked. We didn't have no spare time. From the time I was seven, I had a hoe in my hand working. And my brothers, the same way. Girls took care of the house, the boys took care of the outside. We had a pretty good sized garden. And we also had large acres of corn and beans, cornfield beans, potatoes, large patches of potatoes. So we have plenty to eat. Never did lack stuff to eat. But when you look at the lifestyle, and you didn't know where your next shoes was going to come from or your clothes, because money—cash money was hard to come by. And dad worked the coal mines, so he didn't make a lot, but enough to feed his family and keep going. So it was pretty nice to get out here where you can make a decent living. I think I was making--I think I was making about $75 a week, net out, when I first started.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you first started working for GE or for--?</p>
<p>Trent: With GE, yeah. And I also worked the 300 Area. And I helped start up the Sandcastle out here, Battelle where they're at now. The first buildings, there was three of them. And I was down there to get the equipment started and get it running. So I did that until the union got me and forced me out. So that was another reason it made my decision easier to leave there. I had four layoffs from Hanford due to cutbacks. And seniority, it didn't matter who you were or whatever. Seniority won. The other guy sat there and laughed at you and said I told you. You'll be out there working your tail off and he'll be sitting on his fanny reading or whatever. Doing his job, but nothing extra. You get a guy that would get in there and work, it didn't matter. If you didn't have the seniority, you were gone. So I got caught in four layoffs. No, three. The fourth one I quit and came down here. But it was a nice way to make a living.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and telling us about your experiences both in the Army and working at Hanford. Appreciate it.</p>
<p>Trent: Same.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thanks very much.</p>
<p>Trent: You bet.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:56:19
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
192 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
ca1950-2014
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca1950-?, ?-1995
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
Y area
2 West
2 East
T Plant
U Plant
T Plant 221-T
224-T
224 Building
100 Area
B Area
C Area
D Area
DR Area
200 Area
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Eggar, Dave
Kennedy, John F
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Trent
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Frank Trent conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-8: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
100 Area
200 Area
224 Building
B Plant
Building 200 East
Building 200 West
C Reactor
D and DR Reactors
General Electric
Housing
Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963
Richland (Wash.)
SCRAM
T Plant
U Plant
Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS)
-
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2e6c63401f341726a5d00d80c6b894e0
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F35192d6fa7246bcbeafa4d77f812dca4.mp4
5118fbd730bbe880f6366cbc5584f62f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Smith
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010">
<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span class="SpellingError SCX91453010">Smith_Bob</span></span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I'm going to start by just maybe having you state your name first.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: That's Robert Lee Smith. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> usually go by Bob.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, and my name is Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history inte</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rview with Bob Smith on July 16</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX91453010">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> of </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">2013, and the interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Tri-Cities. And I'll be</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">talking with Bob Smith about his experience working at the Hanford site. So I thought we'd start today by just</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">asking you to talk about how you came to Hanford, how that happened, when that was, and what brought you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">here.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, it had to happen about 1951. My Kansas National Guard unit got called into federal service during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Korean War, and we wound up at Fort Lewis. So one day, a friend and I were hitchhiking into Yakima, and this</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">car, Oldsmobile station wagon</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">looked like a brand new one</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">pulled up to give us a ride.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So we got to asking him questions about, well, gee, you must have a nice job to afford a car like this. Yeah, I've</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">got a pretty nice job, he says. Well, what do you do? He says, I'm a guard over at the Hanford Atomic Works. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">says, well, where's that? He said, oh, it's 80 miles down the road.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We weren't bashful about asking questions, so we says, well, how much do you make? He says well I make $100</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a week. $100 a week? Wow. I had just left Pittsburg, Kansas at a job at $30 a week as a clerk typist. So I thought</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to myself, I want to check that place out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So eventually I did. I wound up as a clerk</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> when they were building the K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas, not making $100 a week, but I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">making $60 a week.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And did you have any idea of what Hanford was at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I had read a short article in the newspaper, I think, over at Fort Lewis, something about they had atomic energy</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">work going on here, and it was secret, and it got my imagination, my curiosity</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. I thought, I'm going to have to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">check that place out. So I eventually did.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And what were your first impressions of the place when you first arrived to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I thought it was a real nice place. I got here </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">on June 8</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX91453010">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> in 1953. And the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> weather was nice and clear and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">really nice. I saw the Rattlesnake Mountain off of the site, back over there, and I thought, man, that's really pretty.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We didn't have any mountains like that back in Kansas.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I was living at the dormitory, so I would run out in the morning and catch a bus, take me to the bus lot, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">then fro</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">m the bus lot I'd go out to 100-K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea. So anyhow, I was very impressed with the area around here.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And so what was your first job? What sort of job were you doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">t was a clerk typist out of 100-K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea, whe</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n they were building the K-East and K-W</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">est Reactor. It was back in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">1953.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And so which contractor?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">General Electric.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">General Electric.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, General Electric Company.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, and you said you lived in a dormitory when you first came?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yes, mm-hmm.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And where were those at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">It was where Albertsons Grocery Store is now on Stevens</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Stevens</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> and the Lee Boulevard.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And it was an all-men dormitory?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, it had a W-21, which stood for Women's, but there were two dormitories in there that had men in them, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they started with a W because eventually they thought they would be women's dorms. But they had more men</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">than women, I guess, so I wound up in W-21.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And how large was the dorm?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Just like any college dormitory, actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">two story, stairs on the outside you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> go</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> up, as well stairs inside--typical college-type dorm.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And how long did you live in the dorm then?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I lived in the dorm until I got married in 1954. I got married in May of '54, so. While living there, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eventually transferred me up to M-1 dormitory, which</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> is up close to Jadwin and Symons</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, something like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Because—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for some reason, maybe they had sold their area to Albertsons. I don't know. But I eventually moved up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">there. So I was there about a year.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then after you got married, where did you move at that point?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, we got an apartment over in Kennewick, but we were only there for about week before our names came</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">through. We had put in for a house to rent in Richland, because it was still a government town at that time. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> got a B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house at that time at 1413 McPherson. So being over this one bedroom basement apartment in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Kennewick only lasted about a week, </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">so we moved into the Richland B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And what were your impressions of Richland at the time? What sort of community was it?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I thought it was real nice. It had the downtown section and also the uptown. The uptown section was fairly new at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that time. But I thought it was very good.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And you mentioned Richland was a government town. Do you remember any special community events--parades, any of those sorts of things during that period?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Not too many</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">being a government town, why, you did the job that you had to do. Well, they did have this music</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">group that had opera singers and plays that you could go to and take part in choruses, singing. So I did join the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Richland Light Opera Team for maybe one year and did a little singing there. But that was only for a few months,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">until I met my wife, and then I lost interest in singing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And at some point, Richland I guess, gains independence, I guess, or whatever you want to say. Do you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> r</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">emember anything about that period and that process at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, that was around 1957 when </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that happened. And being in a B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house, which meant there was a family on</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">each side, the people that were there ahead of us had the opportunity to buy the house, but they didn't want to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">buy it, so they asked us if we wanted to buy it. Well, didn't have enough money to buy anything, so we said, no.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So they went ahead and bought it, and we just stayed there. The rent for the General Electric time was $37.50 a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">month, and we continued paying that for about a year, and then it went up to about $50 a month. But that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was still pretty reasonable at that time.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So you mentioned you star</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ted as a clerk typist in the K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea, right? At some point you moved in to Health Physics.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">How did that happen, and when did that happen?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, by the time my year was up as a clerk typist, I had a chance to move into a job at a little bit of pay. The job</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was called field assistant, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">half clerical typing job, and the other half of the day would be radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time-keeper following J</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. Jones personnel</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> around, minor cons</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">truction, keeping time on them—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radiation time in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radiation zones to make sure that these construction workers didn't receive more than 300 MR in a seven-day</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">period.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Because </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in those days, although we had d</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">osimeter pencils, they were not the self-reading kind where you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">just look up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> the light. What they would do is at the end of the day, you would drop your badge and pencils in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> rack, in this case, 200 West A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea and then go home for the night.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, they had </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what they called pencil girls</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> that would come out on swing shift, and they would collect these</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">badge and pencils, and they would read these pencils. They had a manometer upstairs above the guard house,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and they would stick these pencil in the manometer. It would read how much radiation it had collected. Then</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they'd put them back with the badge and put them back in the rack. So the next morning when you came, you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">pick them up again.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> my time as a radiation time-keeper was up to me to keep track with pencil and paper about how long they</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">could stay in the radiation zones, depending on how high the radiation dose was. As a radiation time-keeper, we'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">accompany radiation monitors</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they called them Health Physics Technicians</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">everywhere the construction guys</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">went. And they would tell us the reading, and we would calculate how many minutes they could work in that zone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then when they would leave that zone and go to another one, then we'd calculate that. So we did that for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> full eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> hours a day. Well, at least four hours a day. Half the day I might spend as a clerk typist writing up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">construction schedules for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we had a General Electric engineer and also a J</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Jones engineer. So they would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">write up the schedules, and I would type them up for the first half of the day, and the second half of the day, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would go keep time on the guys in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radiation zones for about half a day.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I did that from 1954 to 1959, and then I had a chance to transfer into radiation monitoring, which I did. And I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worked in that job from '59 until I retired in '93.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd so when you moved to radiation monitoring, what did that mean in terms of your sort of everyday</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">job? What sorts of different things would you be doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, we woul</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">d go with the operations personne</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">l, like operators or maintenance people, and accompany them on</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">jobs and find out how much radiation was in the area, and then go in there with them and stay with them, in a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of cases, as long as they were in the zone. And then sometimes we could set the job up if the radiation was not</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">going to increase or decrease, then we would leave the job.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But oftentimes we would have to stay with them because they would move from one place to another. So we were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">kind of following construction people and operations engineers</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">everybody that had to go in a radiation zone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We'd either go ahead of time and check the readings off and take smears</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">some floor smears and air samples</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and that sort of thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to make sure they were within the limits of a the Hanford project.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So you worked in various places throughout the site.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I worked at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eventually over the period of time, I was in that job at all nine reactors at the Hanford project.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And also I worked th</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ree separations buildings, PUREX 200 East Area, D Plant in 200 East A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea, and also at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. When I was a radiation time-keeper, partly I kept time on the construction people because they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">building a crane viewi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ng room in the REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, so I did work there also as part of my job as a time-keeper.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I imagine, given the number of years that you worked there, that were a number of contractors that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worked for over the years.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, General Electric left about 1965, so about that time I had a chan</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ce to transfer over to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas at an</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">outfit called Isochem had the contract. And they only did that for about a year or two, when they left and turned</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">their work over to Atlantic Richfield. And Atlantic Richfield did it eventually until Westinghouse eventually took over.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">In between those periods there, I also worked at Douglas Labs, which is out on North George Washington Way.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I did the same type of work, except I also was taught how to irradiate TLD badges because TLDs took over</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the place from film badges. So I would issue these badges for all workers for Douglas Labs, which was, at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time, probably less</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> than</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> 100 people.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I worked at that from about '73 until '76, when Exxon bought the building for Douglas Labs, and then I worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for them for about another couple three years. So actually I was gone from the Hanford project for about five</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">years there, roughly</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">two and a half for Exxon, and two and a half for Douglas Labs.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay, okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Now, at some point, the mission of the site changed from production to clean up. Did that impact your job in terms</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of radiation monitoring in anyway, and if so, how so?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: Yeah, some things did, all right. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">bout 1987, all the re</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">actors were shut down except N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor. And then they decided to shut</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor down '87. But they still had a lot of fuel elem</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ents left in the basement at N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor. Sometimes they</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would shi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">p those few elements over to K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas for storage. But they needed to be processed to make plutonium.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Even though they were going to quit making plutonium, they should've dissolved these fuel elements and got rid of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">them. Instead they just let them store in the K areas for several years. And that was too bad</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> because eventually K</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas had to get those </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">fuel elements out of there and send what's left of them ove</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">r to T Plant, what they call T P</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">lant</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">now, for storage of some of the stuff that's left.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So it</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> made a difference in the kind of radiation monitoring you did. You didn't have to go into operating reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">buildings. Eventually, I transferred into what they call a D&D group, which was Decontamination and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Decommissioning, which meant I went around to all of the old shut</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">down reactors with operators. Well, they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">called D&D workers at this time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We would go with them and make sure that there was no radiation around, take smears of the floor. About the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">only thing left in them would be radon, so we'd check for that. Sometimes we'd run onto a rattlesnake in these old</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">shut down buildings. And one that really surprised once</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we went to 105 C R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor, and we saw this rattlesnake</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">curled up underneath an old maintenance room. And the operator said, darn, the last time I killed rattlesnake, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">environmentalists </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">really got on to me. I says, okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, it was on Friday afternoon, so I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we had a radio, of course. So I said, I'll go out in the radio car and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radio the office and see what the supervisor wants to do. So I did, but the supervisor had left </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">early to go to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> town,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">so the assistant was there. I say, what do you want us to do with this rattle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">snake? We hadn't killed him yet. [LAUGHTER] A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">took a camera with me from the pickup. And he says, well, use your own judgment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, our judgment is we're going to run into that thing again in a month from now, and I didn't want him to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">surprised and bite me. So I took a shovel in with me, and I handed it to the operator and says, do you want to kill</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">him, or do you want me to do it? He says, I'll do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So he took the shovel and whacked the head off of this thing. So after a few minutes there we got ready to leave.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">He scooped up the head on a shovel and carried the tail with his hand</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. And he went on outside to C Re</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">actor, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">he threw the tail over </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the roadway out into the desert</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. But the head, he laid down on the concrete there in front of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> the entrance to C R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">He says, let me dig a hole here to bury this head. We didn't want a coyote or something to eat that head and die</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of rattlesnake poison. So while he was digging that hole, one of the other D&D operators, who had a safety-toed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">boot on, took his boot and gradually moved it up towards that head, and this was after that thing had been killed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> for about ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> or 15, 20 minutes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And that snake, much to our surprise, his head came up about six inches off the ground, came down, and his</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">teeth had latched around fangs on that guy's boot and snagged the top of it for about an inch. And man, I'll tell</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">you, the three of us looked at each other and says, did you see what I saw? We had never seen that before or</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">heard of it. So that surprised us to no extent. So anyhow, that was one of the exciting jobs.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: That’s quite a story. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">What a surprise. Yeah, wow. So I was going to ask you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> were involved with a lot of radiation monitoring. So if</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a worker was exposed too much, their pencil or whatever showed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what happened at that point then for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worker?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, we had a limit of 300 MR</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> per</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> seven-day period, and as a radiation time-keeper, when the worker reached that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">point, why</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> we would go in and pull him out of the zone and tell him, that's it for the week</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">300 per week. Also, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">had a limit of 50 MR per day to start with. So whenever they reached 50 for that day, we would pull them out. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">next day they'd go in for another 50. But they would do that until they got 300 in a seven-day period.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">In reading the informat</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ion from an interview you did ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> years ago or so, it talked about that you had been involved</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in creating a tube that was uses to pinpoint the area of contamination. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, we had what we called a P-11 probe, a Geiger counter. And what we did was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> in a process of surveying our</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people, this P-11 probe was about two, two and a half inches in diameter. I think I've </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">got a copy of it. Anyhow, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would lay this piece of paper down on whatever was contaminated. If it was the bottom of a shoe, we would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">survey that shoe and find the hottest spot on that shoe, and then we would mark it, a pencil mark around the P-11</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">probe.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So it was a round circle for the </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hottest spot. And then I would—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in my days as field artillery in the army, I used to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">work on fire direction center. So we would be fire forward and fire backwards. I thought, well, maybe I could use</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">this P-11 probe like that. So I got the hot spot, and then I would move the P-11 probe down, and then I would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">draw a circle around it</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">below it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then I would go back and find the hot spot and move it to the right, and move it until the radiation went away.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Then I would draw a circle around that. Then I would take it up above and do the same thing there and off the left</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hand</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">side. So when I got through, I had a spot in the center of it about the size of your thumbnail, and that would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">tell us where the hotspot was on the bottom of the shoe or whatever you were decontaminating.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So that saved you some time in decontaminating. Like on the bottom of a shoe you'd use sandpaper or emery</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">cloth, something like that to clean it off, or masking tape or duct tape. So that kind of helped me anyhow</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">just</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">tools of the trade.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Right, and when did you develop that? What time frame would that have been?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Probably around 1970. At that time, I was going over to CBC. I used to be a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">wards chairman for </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Health</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Physics </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Society years ago, and my job was to contact the instructor for a nuclear technology class for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">CBC and find out who we could give a scholarship to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">$500 or something like that. So this guy called me up one</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">day. He says, Bob, we need to have somebody in your group to come over and give radiation monitoring classes</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to our students because they were learning how to be operators in the reactor buildings or radiation technicians.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I said, sure, I could do that. He had gotten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> his experience from the Navy. H</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e was a Health Physics technician, or</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they called them something else in the Navy. And he says, we need somebody over here to help them out and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">teach them. Could you do that, or could you find somebody? I says, yeah, I could probably do that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I contacted my manager, and after six months or a year, they give me permission to go over there and do that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">about once a month. So I would go teach you one or two hours in the morning and another one or two hours in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the afternoon. So that's what I thought about this thing here, which I had done out of work</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">finding little hotspots</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and then bringing them down to a small area. So that's about the time that I was doing that, and so I passed it on</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to the students so they would know, too.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So it was sort of the teaching the students that led you to sort of thinking about that and developing that process?</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, some of those students</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in the summertime we would hire maybe five or six of them to come out </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">at N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">as interns for the summer</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> because we were shut down for about a month or so for all the repairs and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">stuff. So we'd hire some of these students to come out and go </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">round with us and learn jobs. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> at the end of that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">summer, if the company wanted to hire some of them, they could hire one or two or all six of them. So that kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worked out good for both of them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then they shut that teaching job down several years ago because the contractors at Hanford quit hiring</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people because we were starting to shut down reactors and laying people off. So if there's no need for them, then</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they quit teaching it. But then here, about two years ago, they started up that program again.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I don't have anything to do with it. But they do teach them now three jobs, either a radiation operator type job or</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">health physics technician type job or as an instrument technician job. They can go three different ways, so that's a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">good program at CBC right now. It's kind of like nuclear technology. It's a two-year program.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And about how long did you teach classes?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: About ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> years, from about 1970 until about 1980.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And in reading about this, it sounded like you also were instrumental in developing a scholarship program at CBC?</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I noticed th</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">at we always had white persons. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">here was never any blacks</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> and not even many Latinos either.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So one day I asked Larry, I said, how come we don't ever have any Afro-Americans in here? He says he didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">know. So I went to the guy in charge of Afro-Americans over there hiring people, and he says he didn't know.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I thought, well, probably the reason is they were just like I was when I was getting out of high school. I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">have any money to go to college. So I says, maybe we should start up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">maybe the college could do something.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I thought, well, we ought to have an auction.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> we had an auction there at CBC,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> and we had all the kids in the class bring thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s to donate and put out to sell. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd we advertised it, sent information around to a bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nch of companies. And I met</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> about seven or eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">companies to see if they wanted to donate equipment for it, which they did. But the day of auction came along,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and I don't think we even had six people show up to buy anything. So, I says, well, we'll leave this equipment here,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and CBC can have an auction some other time and maybe they'll collect more money, which they did.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">However, we had a guy that was pretty high up in the company for Westinghouse, and he was attending meetings</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">over there. And one day I went to the building over there, and I saw all these, three or four or five other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">companies, not Westinghouse, that had plaques up on the wall that they donated $5,000 from one company,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">$10,000 for another company for scholarships. And so one day, we had a fellow that was pretty high up in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Westinghouse stop by our building out there for a safety meeting one day. I says, we're going to have an auction,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and it would be nice if Westinghouse could donate some money towards this thing and hire these minorities.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So he took that information into the vice preside</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nt of Westinghouse, and they </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">okayed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> And I says, it'd be nice if</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we had four $1,000 scholarships to give to these kids. So they came up with that for that year. However, the next</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">year, they came up with $28,000 for scholarships. So that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the guy who was in charge of all safety for</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Westinghouse at the time sent me a no</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">te and said this was coming off. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">o that made me feel pretty good that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Westinghouse did do that because all these other companies had done something. But they followed through with</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">it, which was great.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So you worked at Hanford from the 1950s into '93. Is that what you said?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">With some years in between there when you weren't.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Right, from about</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, at Hanford from '53 until '93, but I was a radiation monitor from '59 until '93.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Did the technology change quite a bit in terms of radiation monitoring over those years, and if so, how did it</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">change?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, yeah, they got better instrumentation down at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> did some of our reading of our badges and this sort</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of thing. So their instrumentat</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ion got better as the years went along. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd the same with our Geiger counters. They</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> went</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> from the old style to ones with P-11 probe. Nowadays, I'm not sure they even have a P-11 probe. It might</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">be two long probes that they could use either one for beta</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> gamma and alpha. Before, we just had the P-11 probe</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for Geiger counter, and for an alpha meter, we had the probe for alpha</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">two separate ones. So yeah, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">instrumentation did change.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I was also going to ask you during years</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, Hanford was obviously—emphasized</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> security, and I was wondering,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">especially when you started in the 1950s, what that was like in terms of security? Did you have to have special</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">clearance? When you went to the site, did you have to go through special security or anything along those lines?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I did. When they originally told me, while I was still the Army, there would be several weeks for them to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> check on my clearance, I thought, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, several weeks. Well, as it got closer to discharge time, I thought, man,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they haven't contacted me, so I better go down to Fort Lewis and check on civil service jobs. So I did, and I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">qu</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">alified for two jobs. One was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> a warehouse</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">man</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> because I had worked six years in a grocery store, and the other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">job was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> billing, clerk typist, in the transportation d</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">epartment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I stayed there from December of '52 </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">‘til June of '53. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut I got so tired of driving the fog and the rain over there</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">around Fort Lewis and Seattle-Tacoma area that I just got sick of it. I had an old 1940 Ford. The heater didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">work, and the defroster didn't work either. So I'd have to drive about half way out and scrape the ice off the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">outside and the inside.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And one day, I was cleaning out the back of it, and I saw all this mold in the backseat. I said, holy cow, the thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> didn't warm up enough to dry</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> that o</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut. So finally I decided, well—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I was kind of disgusted with General Electric for</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">not notifying me. So although I didn't want to go back to Kansas because my mother and stepfather didn't get</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">along too good. They fought like cats and dogs, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> under no condition,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> no way did I want to live in the same house with them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So put off of going back there. I could have gone back to Pittsburg, Kansas, where the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> had a four-year college</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">there. I could have lived at home, but I didn't want to stay there. So finally, I thought,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> I'm going to write General</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Electric a note. I didn't cuss them out or anything, but I wrote some wording on there that said, I thought you guys</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">were honest in your estimations of how long it was going to take for this, but it's been so long. You said several</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">weeks, and it's been several months.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I put t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hat letter and mailed in my out</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">box at Fort Lewis, Washington. And when I got home that night, I found a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">letter in the mailbox from the General Electric Company and it said, from Zane</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Wood. H</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e says, Bob, you've waited</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">long enough for a job. We're ready for you now, so you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> can come on over. So I says, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, I'll give my boss two</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">weeks</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">’ </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">notice and come on over, so I did. But I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">clearances took an awful long time in those days.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And when you started working, did you drive your car on site? Were you able to do that, or did you have to take a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">bus, or how did that work?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">No, they had bus service around Richland that you could take buses down the sort of streets, and then you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">catch</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we were leaving at the B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house, so a bus would come by within about a block, so I'd catch my bus there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">take it to the bus lot, and then we would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> get on the bus that went to K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea. And so I would get in there, pay a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nickel for a ride out and a nickel to ride back home, and this was 1953.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I did that until I went into the radiation time-keeper job</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, and we had buses to 200 West A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea then, all the areas,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">but you still just dropped a nickel in when you went in and a nickel when you came out. So I caught the buses</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">there also. So mainly buses</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they didn't get rid of the buses until about a year after I retired.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I know President Kennedy visi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ted the site in 1963 for the N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor dedication. I wondered if you were here at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time, and were you on the site that day?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I was here at that time. I had two boys and a girl, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and the wife. We loaded up in my station wagon and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> drove out to N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ea</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ctor and was there for his talk. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I think there was about 40,000 people out there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">too, so it took us an hour to get out of there with so many people. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that was an interesting time. I also went to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> one time when President Nixon came out here </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to dedicate something to Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. So I was able to see</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">both presidents that way.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Do you have</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">were there ever any events that sort of stand out in your mind</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> period of time working there</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> or any</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">incidents of any kind or accidents or any sort of events that stand out in your mind from your years working at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, one thing that kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">surprised me—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">about the time I was to retire i</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n 1993, I used to go over to B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">whenever they would have out-of-the-</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">country people for a tour of B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor. My manager at that time said that he</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would like for me to be in on the tours because I used to work there when it was an operating reactor. So in case they ask him, well, what was is equipment used for or that one, I could tell them a little bit about it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I went over there once with about five or six Russians, and they wanted to look at B, so they were looking</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">around there. So finally, one of them spoke up and said, well, since you're about to retire here in a few months,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what's your lifetime radiation exposure? I say</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s it's 66 rem. And he says, aha! M</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ine's 600.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> knew—I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> figured they took a lot more radiation. I thought to myself, man, you must have been at Chernobyl or something.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But they took a lot more than what we were all</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">owed here at Hanford. Our limit—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">o</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">fficial—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was 5 rem per year, to not</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">include more than 3 R gamma. But they had a lot more over in Russia.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">What were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, sometimes as a radiation monitor, you were the only person that knew much about radiation and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">contamination on a job, so it was up to us. We had a limit of 15-mile per hour speed limit on wind. So it was always</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">up to the monitor to decide whether or not to shut a job down or not. And I thought, man, that's a big</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">responsibility, because some these jobs are pretty important.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I carried around a wind gauge underneath the seat of the pickup. And I thought, well, if necessary, I'll get that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">wind gauge out. Because it got so I could take a look at sagebrush, a light piece a sagebrush. I would take the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">wind gauge out and watch when the wind blow to see when that sagebrush would roll. And I thought, well, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">thing's going to roll maybe 17 mile an hour, and the bigger piece of sagebrush would take a little more wind.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I had this wind gauge out at one job, and the wind was 16 miles an hour, so I shut the job down. Well, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">went over like a l</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ead balloon with the rigging</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> supervisor. We were on a diversion box, BX tank farm. And he</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">says, I'm </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">going to call up your boss, Bob. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">o he did, and my boss came out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">By then, the wind had stopped, but I hadn't said anything about you could go back to work. And he says, Bob, how</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">come you shut the job down? I says, well, it says on R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">N</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">WP 15 miles an hour. Here's the wind gauge</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">16. He says,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, it doesn't look like it's blowing now. I says, well, it's not. As far I'm concerned, they can start working again, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they did.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But every once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">while, you would be challenged. Once again I was challenged. I was working with the D&D</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">group. We were at 100 K burial ground. Sometimes the waste in the burial ground will either travel down deeper,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">or sometimes they could go up, or they can go to the left or to the right over a period of time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> And we had a car—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e had one monitor that would drive this SUV-type instrument around where it has radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> detectors on the front bumper. And he would drive over to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> tank farm. Whenever it would have a spot above the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">limits, like the limits on the tank farm are maybe 100 counts a minute above background. Well, whenever he hit</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">this limit, why, it would alarm.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So they notified our group that they needed to go in and lay some more dirt down, so they did. They were doing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">this job, putting more dirt on top of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> dirt. And this engineer</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they were running out of money for these truck</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">driver</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> to do that. And he says to my boss in radiation monitoring, he says</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we have to radiation monitors</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">checking the tires of these </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">trucks that were coming and going. And says, why not check every truck coming in and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">out, going in and out? Why not every other truck or maybe only two tires instead of all four?</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> And I said, no, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> can't do that. Because we had run into </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">exactly that same problem at N Area once. It wasn't me, i</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was another radiation monitor. He had decided on zone that I'm going to start checking every other truck. Well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">one of these trucks cam</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e up with hot tires from the N A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea place, and he tracked contamination down the highway</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a ways, and that's not good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I says, well, I'm not going to do that. So the engineer was so mad, he went up to my supervisor. And I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">my supervisor took word over to the manager of radiation protec</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">tion for all of the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas at that time. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">some</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">where there, my supervisor had told me tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">t, Bob, don't survey every tire, just s</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">urvey some of them. And I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">so mad at that, I said to myself, I can't do that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We go through a certification program that you don't compromise the situation. So I was all set to go back to work,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">but I was going to check all four tires. And just before I left, my supervisor came back and said, our top manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">says, keep doing it the way you have</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">surveying all four tires, so we did. So once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">while, you'd run out of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">money on a job, why, upper management wants to change things, and you can</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">'t do that if you're—why, </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">had resisted that. I figured I might get laid off or fired or something, but it didn't come to that point, thank</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">goodness.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So then, what were some more rewarding aspects of your job and working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, one rewarding thing was the scholarships </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the We</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">stinghouse came up with. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd the other rewarding job was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">just you knew in your own mind whenever you were doing something right, and there was always a temptation to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">take shortcuts, but a good monitor never did</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ecause we had friends did try that, and they got into trouble so.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">One time I got to note from two former operators I used to work with, and he said</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> been long retired since</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">then, and they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> working</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> as ministers, and they sent me a note that said </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they had appreciated my job as</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">monitoring, that I was different than some of the others. Some of them seemed to not try to get along with other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people, operators, and tried to be too rigid. And they thought that I had tried to do the right thing. So that made</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">me feel pretty good, that even though you sometimes wonder, I thought that I did a good enough job.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So overall, how would you describe or assess Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I think it's a real good place. There are times when some people think that Hanford is</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">because it's got the most</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">contamination the country, probably because we also made most of the weapons for Hanford, probably 65% or so</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of all the source of the bomb</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">’s material. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd I thought that people were trying to do badmouth the plant here too</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">much.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">They also tried to badmouth Hanfo</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rd DOE—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">or AEC, they called it in those days. But I didn't see it that way,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">because they were always trying to follow rules and regulations, and I thought they did a good job, and I thought</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Hanford overall did a good job.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">My students now, some of them anyway, were born after the Cold War ended. So they have no memory of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Cold War. They don't know much about it. I guess especially for people who are that young that really have no</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">memory, what sorts of things would you like them to know about Hanford or working there?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I think they need to know that, like I do, that I thought that Hanford did a good job of controlling radiation and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the spread of it, because that was my job was to be one of the monitors out there watching these things and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">following the rules and regulations. So since I had a job in controlling it, I knew what was supposed to happen and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what did happen. So I got to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> feel like most all the percentage of the time</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Hanford did a pretty good job of it.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or any specific memories, things that you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">like to talk about that you haven't talked about yet?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, yeah there's one of them that kind of bothered me a little bit. Back in 1966, we had a strike here at Hanford.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And being in </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the radiation monitoring group—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that was a union job. So we went on strike for about six weeks.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">During that time, I worked as a kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> electrician helper down in California. California could not get enough</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">electricians to work in their jobs. All their local people were busy, so they called around the country to get other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">electricians.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, they wanted 20 from Han</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ford, but they could only get ten. So they says, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, we'll take five instrument</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">technicians and five radiation monitors, since we all belong to the same union. However, those radiation monitors</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">have to have worked around electricians for at least a year, so they could help out as a helper.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So my union steer </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">called up one day and said, Bob, do you want to come by and drop your name in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hat and see if it gets drawn out for five guys to go down to Californian? I says, sure, so I did. And luckily enough I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">did, so I was down there for, well, it was a six-week strike.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">The first week we just stayed home. The next five weeks I worked dow</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n there. Well, when I got back—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">get these bottles, urine bottles, because they wanted to bring everybody up to date. Well, I'd been gone for six</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">weeks, so I put my urine bottle out in front for the truck driver to pick up. Well, he picked it up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, but a couple, </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">three days later he came back again with some more of them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I asked, well, how come I got some more urine bottle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> here? He says, well</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">he shouldn't have told me this</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">bec</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ause he's just a truck driver—b</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut he says, well, I've had to redeliver several extra bottles around to different</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ecause t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">here was one guy over to 234-5 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">uilding, where they were making plutonium buttons, that had</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">gotten into an incident and gotten real contaminated. And they thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nk that the bottles were washed—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for me to do my</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> sample in—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, mine were washed in the same batch that his were, and they cross-contaminated to my bottles.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But that's just a rumor, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hey don't know for sure.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I did get notified by my manage</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">r at that time that I was giving</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> an extra 5 rem of radiation because of those</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">urine bottles. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I called him up and I says—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ill</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Mc</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Murray was my manager. I says, Bill, I wasn't even here at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time. How can I get t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hat? He says, well, Bob, Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> had done a lot of updating of their equipment, so maybe</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they got more sensitive equipment now than th</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ey did six weeks ago. I said, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, Bill, whatever.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But anyhow, they put that on my record, and it's been there ever since. They wouldn't take it off. So that kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">miffed me a little bit. That's one of the things you learn to put up with.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: All right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Anything else that you'd like to share, any other stories or memories?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: Well, let's see. N</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ot offhand. Things went pretty smooth, as far as I was concerned.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and your experiences. I appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, you're welcome, my pleasure.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Thanks.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:52:37
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
224 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
K Area
100-K Area
200 West Area
PUREX 200 East Area
D Plant
200 Area
N Area
100 Area
K-West Reactor
N Reactor
105 C Reactor
C Reactor
B Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1953-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1953-1993
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob Smith conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/16/2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2016-06-24: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Nuclear instruments & methods
100 Area
100-K Area
105 C Reactor
200 Area
200 West Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
D Plant
Hanford (Wash.)
K Area
K-West Reactor
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
N Area
N Reactor
PUREX 200 East Area
Richland (Wash.)
-
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570a52b3830287cda5b3b79dc4b071fd
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6044cabd932f17cf7e979c559097da63.mp4
707021a797b556cd2c395a8fc8f9fd0b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arata, Laura
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Emil, Leitz
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Leitz_Emil</strong></p>
<p>Man one: Whenever you're ready.</p>
<p>Laura Arata: We’re ready to go?</p>
<p>Man one: Yeah, yup.</p>
<p>Arata: Okay. So if we just start off, if I could have you say your name, and then spell your last name for us.</p>
<p>Emil Leitz: Emil E. Leitz, the last name spelled, L-E-I-T-Z.</p>
<p>Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. The date is November 7th, 2013, already, somehow. So I wonder if we could start just by having you tell us a little bit about how you come to Hanford, when you arrived here, so what your initial experience was like?</p>
<p>Leitz: Okay, I came to Hanford after I served my tour of duty during the Korean War. And I had worked for GE prior to going in the service, and they asked me where I would like to go back to work for them. And so I told them I would like to go the Northwest, and they said, well, Hanford is a place where we have some jobs. We'd be glad to place you there. So I came to Hanford. My wife and I were married at the time. We had one child. Hanford, to me, going first on the job, it was kind of old time I'd say. The ride to the area was by bus, but the buses were not air conditioned. They were, in the winter, very cold because the heaters were not very adequate. The assignment to the C Reactor was my choice after I had been here for a while. There were some other engineers who came in when I did. We each went our own ways. The trip, I mentioned, was by bus, but as also, we had to take our own lunches. We didn't have eating—preparation for food out in the areas. I was in the research and development organization as an engineer trying to, at that time, improve both safety and production. Something that was really, really emphasized, the importance for safety here at Hanford. And at that time, they were also wanting to increase production because we were in the big race with Russia to whoever could make the most bombs supposedly was going to be the winner of this Cold War. Well, after I worked for—well, the first assignment I had really at C Reactor was they were trying out a new fuel element, and that would cool the fuel both internal and external to the fuel. And it took a special spacer on the end to mix them. Now a spacer is something that positions the fuel in the reactor. And it would take a special one of these spacers to mix the fuel between the inner and outer cooling channels on the fuel. And it so happened that at C Reactor, once they got their reactor up and charged it, they couldn't get the reactor to run. We had every process tube, 2,003 of them--were monitored by a flow monitor. And that flow monitor, if the pressure exceeded certain limits, it would automatically shut the reactor down. And it just kept shutting the reactor down. And the plant manager, he wanted to abort the whole program. He says, it's common to all of the tubes, we just can't operate the reactors, so the fuel is a failure. And they asked me my opinion, and I said, it could very well be that we only have a very few tubes mischarged without that mixer spacer. Because I had them run some tests that showed that if that mixer spacer's in there, the pressure would be oscillating between the tube. And we couldn't identify at that time which particular tube was causing the problem. So that's what I told my management, and then two days later, the plant manager came into me, he was just livid. He said, you told the people that I was making a mistake in charging the reactor, that I was not controlling it adequately. And he said, I'm going to get your ass. That's just what he said. And I'm going to check every process tube in that reactor, and prove that you’re wrong. Well, they checked them, and they had seven process tubes mischarged. They corrected the charge, the reactor went up—operated perfectly. Never had another scram, so I didn't hear anything more from that manager. So it was kind of interesting point of view about my first assignment, and I got that kind of pressure from some of the managers.</p>
<p>Arata: How long did that take, to test that many process tubes?</p>
<p>Leitz: Oh, to load the reactor probably took six months or so. Because they would do, as the field became ripe, the old field became ripe--or ready for discharge--they would discharge, it was a couple hundred tubes, and then put new ones in. So that took probably two, three charges ‘til they—when they got--And I don't know when the problem first occurred to having these inadvertent scrams, but when I got there, they were ready to abort the load. And would have really reduced—they had to increase the flow into the reactor, and they could not really get full utilization. Those reactors originally were built for 200 megawatts—I think that's what it was--and they were all operating up around 2,000 then after they got these new fuel elements in and the new flow up. So ten times the power that they originally designed for. So there were really some big improvements. Along with this going on, it was in 1957 in Richland, they were going to sell the homes. They made a big—they were going to get out of the business of having houses, and a lot of the people were pretty leery. Hey, they're going to be shutting this down because most of them knew, oh yeah, we've got plenty of weapons. We really don't need all this plutonium for weapons. And so some people were very hesitant. They offered the homes at 75% of the appraised value of the house if you didn't want the buy-back clause. And if you paid full price, the government would promise to buy it back if something would happen that there was a real economic downturn in Richland. And I found this one guy who says, he was in no way ever going to invest in his buying a house in Richland. And I said, okay. A ranch house is appraised at $10,000, if you buy one, I'll pay you $8,500 for it. So it's appraised at $10,000, and I said, I'd pay you at $8,500. And you buy them in the no buy-back clause, and so that's how I bought my first house. I had been grinning. I couldn't get into one of the government houses, and they were about half the rent I had to pay in a commercial housing organization, which that time was warehousing. So that's kind of an interesting thing as far as living here in Richland goes. People are always a little bit leery about how long could they really want to continue to run those reactors.</p>
<p>Arata: All right.</p>
<p>Leitz: So the success there at C Reactor--and I was then reassigned to process standards and other jobs. And one night I wanted to start up when they had the approval to build the N Reactor, it was about 1962. I had been here, oh, seven years. They selected me to be what they called the startup engineer for the N Reactor. They had three tests. They had the N1s, which was for physics testing. You had the N2 and N3. The N2 just brought the reactor up in enough power that it could supply its own power for its turbines, and they could back off the boiler. They have a big boiler plant that would generate the steam that normally could drive the turbines. And then they would bootstrap it up. You'd get enough steam, and you'd start these big turbines up, and then you go on up in power. N Reactor was designed for 4,000 megawatts, so I had the job of designing—Now it was unique to any other reactor in the world, and a lot of people say, that reactor just isn't going to run. It's too complicated. It had only 1,000 process tubes, but it also was on recirculation, and no contamination left that plant. It was all--the water just recirculated, and then we didn't release the coolant to the river like all the other reactors that the water would go through the reactor and into the river and still have some radioactivity still left in it, so the N Reactor was a solution for that particular problem. So as they're prior getting ready for writing all those tests and starting of the reactor as assigned training mission aboard the Nuclear Ship Savannah. The Nuclear Ship Savannah was built as part of the Atoms for Peace under Eisenhower. And then that was kind of jointly N Reactor was kind of the same sort of thing, where we would have an Atoms for Peace. We had, instead of just producing plutonium, we also could eventually, if it was approved, add the power generation station. So the original testing of N Reactor went very well, on schedule, and they gave me this little award here, which is the general manager’s award. They didn't give many of these out. And actually, along with that I got a check that was about the size of another month’s pay, so when I was young and needed the money, that was very welcome.</p>
<p>Arata: We'll get a picture of that at the end for sure.</p>
<p>Leitz: So with that success then, we went ahead and I, during the lifetime of the N Reactor, I worked there a long time. The dual purpose construction was approved in May of 1965, and as a part of that dedication, President Kennedy came out and made a big dedication. And let me see, I think—yeah, 37,000 people came to hear the President speak here the first time Hanford was open up to the public. They had parked thousands of cars out there out in the middle of the desert. Kennedy came in a helicopter. Even though we had watered the ground down, it was just a cloud of dust because it was a construction site, and man, boy, you couldn't even see the helicopter when it was landing. And I had the big job of helping park cars and stuff like that at that time. That’s what it took an engineer to do. [LAUGHTER] It was kind of a fun day for everybody, I think.</p>
<p>Arata: Did you get to actually see President Kennedy going over his speech then?</p>
<p>Leitz: Yeah, oh, yeah. We got to really see him. Nobody got to shake hands with him, except a very few. I mean, they still have the podium somewhere that he talked from. That's still on display in the museum somewhere. So the first real problem that occurred at N Reactor that they couldn't solve. For some reason, we were having a lot of fuel failures. And some of it was due to equipment problems. Some of it was due to the way they were loading the tubes and that sort of thing. And they appointed me to hit up a task force to try and reduce the fuel failure rate. The fuel failure rate was something like one a month! And when the task force got done and made all these recommendations and they implemented them, we got it down to something like one a month. Now in doing that job, I decided I'm going to do it as a thesis for my master's degree in business. And so it was an operational analysis sort of thing. It was very successful, and I got my thesis paper written and that sort of thing, and that's in the libraries here somewhere. So that was very successful at Battelle. Then I got to be manager of the N Reactor Operations, and I always had to test everybody before they--I was part of a team that tested everybody before they would be certified. N Reactor was the first reactor at Hanford, at least, that certified ladies to be reactor operators. We had two or three ladies while I was manager of operations at the plant that became certified, which I was pretty proud that we didn't have this bias, women against men and that sort of thing. But after I got done, when I was manager I followed every startup personally to make sure they didn't mess up, that they were doing it right. And then I went into managing the safety for all the reactors that were left and fuels and so on and so forth. And the people in the plant operations were always trying to get me to do faster reactor startups. Because if you get the plant started up faster, you get to generate your electricity faster, and they say you could gain as much as a third of a day production by starting up the reactor fast. Well, when they asked me go back in and again--well the fuel failure rate went way up. Going up to better than one a month. And asked me to go again and examine what's going wrong with--how come the fuels are failing? And I said, because you're not really sticking with the original recommendation of controlling slowly and raising reactor power level. And no, no, no, we don't believe that. And so I said, okay, let's arbitrate it with Battelle. Battelle will analyze it. So they came in with their people who really understand stress and strains and all that kind of stuff. And they analyzed it and said that they were reactor startup rates that they were going at put ten times the stress on as a reaction scram would. So once they've, again, got control of their power rates going up again, the fuel failures went way back down again. So that was another one of the ways that I put a success on my career. In fact, we were there for a while. We were so erratic in the way the reactor would shut down and start up--is that the dams—if we would trip off, they would have to pick up the electrical load. And that one of the dams when I went to visit with the Corps of Engineers, back when I was taking some of my reserve training through the Corps of Engineers, I saw a sign, Old Faithful where the N Reactor power was showing. It was kind of interesting. It's interesting that when the first electrical energy was produced, three of the reactors had already been shut down. Now we always felt that N Reactor that N Reactor could just about replace the production of those three reactors. And so we weren't too worried about us getting shut down. But as we operated on through the years, we had all the reactors shut down by 1969, actually--yeah, by 1971, all reactors, including N Reactor, was shut down. And we started the big campaign to get to the Washington Public Power Supply system and/or now the Northwest Electrical Energy to give us better payment for our steams, and with the better rate on steam, we got people to then restart N Reactor under a better contract. So in 1971, after being shut down as a part of all the reactors, we were restarted and allowed to operate. We operated through—okay, and in 1971, when all the plants were down, we had another president visit. The only second president that I know that came to Richland, and that Nixon that came. And he'd give us the old pep talk about how he wasn't going to leave us all in the lurch here in Hanford. That we're going to have people like Pacific Northwest labs and so on and bringing the business, and there'd be plenty for us to do. Well, we did get N Reactor restarted and we operated then through—well, Mt. St. Helens erupted in '80 and in 1980, we had to do some upgrades to make sure that that sort of thing would not interfere with our operation. We got up to where we generated 65 billion kilowatt hours of electrical power, and then in 1987, after that achievement, we were shut down to make some safety improvements to improve our operation, make it more safe. And we never did restart from that. We were kept out. So at that time I was reassigned to the decommissioning work, cleaning up Hanford and being mainly involved in safety with the reactors. I became more involved then with making sure that the effort to decontaminate everything, and it was done within environmental requirements and within safety requirements. You had these big tanks of waste, and there's a potential that just by sticking a probe into a tank of waste, you can moderate the waste such that it could possibly even go critical like a reactor. So we had to examine everything they wanted to do--if they wanted to put a new pump in a tank or if they wanted to move the liquid around, if they wanted to stir the liquid, or if they wanted to use certain chemicals. And what would be your environmental impact? Where do you look for waste from the tanks? A lot of waste is just buried out there. Just if you wanted to get rid of radioactive waste, you go out and dig a hole and you put some waste--and you put it in there. And so recovering all of that and recovering that safely for personnel and for the environment is the job that I ended up doing for the rest of my career. So basically I had what I considered a pretty good career at Hanford. I really thought there were some good challenges, and I thought I made some pretty good contributions to operations at Hanford Project.</p>
<p>Arata: Is it okay if I ask a few more follow up questions?</p>
<p>Leitz: Pardon?</p>
<p>Arata: Can I ask you a few more follow up questions?</p>
<p>Leitz: Oh, you bet ya.</p>
<p>Arata: That was some good coverage of your time—</p>
<p>Woman one: There’s also some water there if you need it.</p>
<p>Leitz: No, I don’t need it. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: --And your working period. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit more about on board the Savannah, and how that experience came about? I mean, what your experience on the ship was like and what its mission was?</p>
<p>Leitz: Okay. I could talk all day on that, really. But the first thing, we got on in Portland, Oregon. And we went out to the—the first thing I knew it is there a man came aboard the ship, the side, and he took over the control of the ship. He was a harbor pilot. And I didn't realize that. Why is that? And he said, well, because that particular bay going out into the ocean is noted as the graveyard for many ships because that's one of the worst entries into the ocean there as far as being rough and tricky, and it moved around. So you have to have a particular man who knows what's going on in that bay to help to get the ship out. So that was kind of interesting to find out that there are those kind of risks with running a ship.</p>
<p>Arata: And how would this come about? How had you gotten the invitation to be on the Savannah?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, based on my experience. They stuck me to be a startup engineer, and they thought and felt I needed special training in high pressure, high temperature reactors. And there was an opportunity to get it, on a ship that used the same kind of a reactor that we had on the N Reactor except it was much, much smaller. It was toy one compared with the N Reactor. Let's see, is there really anything more about that? Oh, what they did is they selected the people on the basis of having one with the reactor at all times during the startup testing. So the four shift managers were selected. My boss's bosses were selected, and I was selected to get that particular training because they felt I would be writing the tests. I need to know about all of it. And they needed to have that experience on every shift. The top man in every shift was also on that ship. So it was kind of interesting, just as a sideline, five of them are Navy men, and I was an Army man, and I was kind of the butt of their jokes. You're going to get seasick, and we're going to all laugh at you. And we get into--after we went through the Panama Canal--and we all took some time off in the Panama Canal in terms of working extra before and after—but after we got to the Panama, we went into the Caribbean, and we did get into quite a storm. That ship was actually taking water over the bow. It would go down and go up and go down and go up. And I was out there watching that bow and then I went in to go and eat that night. And I couldn't find any of those other guys. Couldn't find a one of them anywhere. That was kind of a funny part of it is I was probably the only one, I don't think, that didn't get seasick. But it was a fun trip, and we flew back home from Galveston, then.</p>
<p>Arata: What route did the ship take while you were on it?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, it went down the coast of South America in through the Panama Canal into the Caribbean and into Galveston, Texas, yeah.</p>
<p>Arata: How long were you aboard?</p>
<p>Leitz: 30 days. It was a nice cruise. Really it's one of the best vacations I ever had. [LAUGHTER] Except they had us do a study, but I didn't mind the study at all.</p>
<p>Arata: I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit--you did a lot of work on safety and security. Could you talk a little bit about if you had to where any special protective clothing in what you did or maybe what sorts of standards you set for other people to follow?</p>
<p>Leitz: At one time I was a manager, in fact, of first-hand safety, but only safety in the context of security and that sort of thing. At one time, they had a big upgrade at Hanford for security, and I was in charge the upgrading. But as far as personally, I went into the reactor sites many times and had do the special clothing. If there's any chance of air contamination, you had to have respirators on. And to get out of a radiation area, you have to go to two step-off pads. The first one you just get your clothes off on it. And the second one then, they check you in, and you can come on out. But you had radiation monitors check you any time you come out of a radiation suit and instruments, you put your hands and feet on them and a special clothing.</p>
<p>Arata: Were there ever any incidents that you recall? Anything either humorous or a little bit scary or anything like that?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, some that aren't too finicky. One of the K Reactors, when they started it, they had a new physicist, and he held a high period. I don't know if you realize, a 30-second period when you're at watts, you aren't really increasing power real fast, but if you keep that 30-second period when you’re up in megawatts, then it's very, very rapid, increasing power. And then it was the startup of one of the Ks, this new physicist had him hold that 30-second period until the reactors scrammed out from these [INAUDIBLE] trips. Now one thing I could mention is that the change in technology has really changed. Back at C Reactor, we didn't know which tube was causing the scram. With the N Reactor, we knew everything going on, every tube. And we used to have to take our data downtown, in an automobile, we'd punch it out on key cards, and we'd take it down and punch those into a computer. And we'd get the limits back, we'd go back to the reactor and say, okay, you can raise power. And then we would go in and get some more limits and back and forth between town and back. And that took a long time ready to start up because that N Reactor, you had instantaneous information. You knew right along just exactly how every tube related to its limit, pressure and temperature. So we went from analog kinds of systems to digital kinds of systems, just the same thing you see in your TVs or your telephones, the same kind of thing happened at the reactors as far as computerization and technology. So that was really an enhancement.</p>
<p>Arata: Were there any aspects of your work that you found sort of the most challenging or the most rewarding? You had several different jobs.</p>
<p>Leitz: [LAUGHTER] Well, I think the most rewarding was where I faced up a couple managers [LAUGHTER] and won the battle.</p>
<p>Arata: During C Reactor?</p>
<p>Leitz: But there's some worry to our time in that too, you know, what if I'm wrong? But it turned out all right. And I think that's part of the reason that I was really considered the one man who knew the most about the reactor. I didn't know everything, but I probably knew more than most people about there. Because I started it up, I lived with it to its life, and I got the picture kind of as a reward for when I retired.</p>
<p>Arata: Is anything that was the most challenging, maybe to work through in your time at Hanford?</p>
<p>Leitz: I think when I think of the operation N Reactor, I think it was the most challenging job I had. Because that one required, like I said, I went with all the startups. And that's when I was a process engineer with the reactor. When they had problems, they'd call us at night and that sort of thing. But with N Reactor, it was kind of more volunteer, but to know—and some of the shift managers were pretty hesitant on their own to make decisions. And I think that was probably the most challenging job was the operation of one of those big reactors—or that single big reactor and knowing when or when not to say, hey, you've got to shut down, or you don't have to shut down. And the controls even at N Reactor on the environmental controls, you can let down water into a crib—into a spill cooler if you wanted to, and even that was very, very--it had to be done without radiation released into the environment. And there's a real, real difference in attitudes over the years of environmental control and making sure you did not release isotopes into the environment. Really had differences in attitudes.</p>
<p>Arata: Yeah, I understand that the Chernobyl incident had a big impact on the decision to finally close N Reactor, to not restart N Reactor. Do you have any thoughts?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, N Reactor is a graphite moderator reactor. And Chernobyl when they raised power level fast, their graphite coefficient was different than N Reactor. N Reactor, if you raised the power fast, it would shut it down, it would tend to shut it down. So as you were starting up fast, in R Reactor, you had to pull the rods faster and faster if you heat it up faster in order to keep the activity going up. In Chernobyl, the same thing happened, but their rods weren't strong enough to stop it. And so it kept going up in power until it melted the core. Now at N Reactor, we ran a lot of experiments to try and prove that even if that did happen, we don't think our graphite would have burnt. But to tell somebody you've got a graphite stack over here that burnt, and then we've got a graphite stack over here that's a little different composition and made up a little different way, it won't burn—just one cell. We still believe that we never could've burnt the N Reactor stack, but basically, that's what kept it down. It's shut it down for keeps—it’s the fact that why won't our stack burn? We just couldn't prove our stack wouldn't burn. We put torches on it, heat it up to a tremendous temperature, it wouldn't burn, but is that enough proof that it won't burn? You know, just wouldn't quite buy. So you know about a little bit about Chernobyl, huh? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: A tiny bit. What was Hanford like overall as a place to work?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, the real inconvenience is location. Riding the bus back and forth initially, and later, we drove our own car. I actually wore out a little Metropolitan driving back and forth. I kind of enjoyed that little car, but we got to use our own cars. We carpooled and these sorts of things. One thing you'd see in the desert, and I don't know if many, many people are aware of it, but sometimes you see a lot of rabbits killed on the highway. And pretty soon you'd see no more rabbits on the highway, but you start seeing wolves and coyotes killed on the highway. And that's the cycle of what would happen is when there are lots of rabbits, there's a lot for the coyote to eat. And you could just see that cycle at Hanford, over a number of years, the population of each of those would vary. And if the rabbit population goes out, then the other population goes out. When it goes down, it goes down. So it was kind of interesting to see that.</p>
<p>Arata: Yeah. I wonder if we could back up just briefly to when you first arrived, if you had any impressions of what Richland was like as a community when you first arrived here?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, the main reaction we had was, man, it’s costing us a lot more to live than those people that have been here for a while because they had a lot of stuff provided to them, coal or whatever. But you know, the rents were half what we had to pay and that sort of thing, but that didn't last forever. And buying the houses was it really turned out to be a very promising thing. We had weather storms, pretty bad. We had termination winds. We had a pastor, one of our pastors at church--the wife was just by herself when the storm had come in the sand would come through her doors. She wanted her husband to stop that from happening. [LAUGHTER] We had a lot of activities for couples and younger people and so on that we don't have now. Sororities, the Army Reserve meetings, and all these sort of things, you know. Nowadays, people don't want the same kind of entertainment as they had back in those days with Richland. So it’s a different style, more thrifty, maybe that's the whole United States.</p>
<p>Arata: Did you have sorts of dances or community events, things like that?</p>
<p>Leitz: Yeah, had quite a few community events and dances and things like that.</p>
<p>Arata: I know at one point you mentioned White Bluffs. Did you go out to the town site at any point during your first few years here?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, we had to drive past it almost every day. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Were there still buildings standing by that point? Or--</p>
<p>Leitz: The foundations in some of the walls and stuff were there, but none of the buildings were really intact. One of the old gas stations--but some of the people, and I didn't get it going, but some of the people did some exploration, which was not allowed. But they did on the old sites.</p>
<p>Arata: I just have a couple other things that I wanted to ask you about from reading through your notes. A lot of what I've read about N Reactor talks about zirconium, and I understand this is sort of an innovation at the time. Could you talk a little bit about what it was, and why it was so new?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, zirconium, they needed a process tube. In the old reactors, there was just aluminum, because there was only cold water going through. They’d maybe get, oh, maybe it would get almost to boiling on the outside of some of the aluminum tubes. In the N Reactor you need a process tube that withstood the high temperature, high pressure. And so they developed this new metal, zirconium, that would withstand the temperatures and pressure and so on involved within the reactor, and the fuel was also clad in that. So if we ran on aluminum tube or aluminum fuel outline at the temperature we had to run at, it would have, what do you call it? A fuel failure. And fuel failures, well, I didn't talk too much about them, but there you're opening up the cladding to the uranium and then the uranium fission product took it in. And you’re likely for that to stay in the primary loop and cause high radiation to our workers. In the other old reactors, it would just go on through the reactor. And hopefully most of it would get picked up and they'd have a cooling pond for the water goes too and then the water goes the river. But small amounts of that could get to the river, and I think that's some of things they found with the aluminum tubes. But our zirconium tubes, they were much more resistant to temperature and pressure and so on.</p>
<p>Arata: Is there anything that you'd sort of like to pass on, wisdom to future generations? Of course, most of my students didn't live through the Cold War. They were born afterwards and don't really have an understanding of that time. Is there anything that you'd like future generations to know about what that experience was like of living through and working through the Cold War?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, there's a lot of fear of radiation that's not merited, and it's something you have to learn to live with. Just like in our agricultural world, there are a lot of chemicals and stuff that we're using now we didn't use to use. But we have to learn to use them safely. I think radiation, contamination with radiation, there's a big difference between contamination and irradiation. If you go in for an X-ray, you get irradiated, but you don't get contaminated. If you get contaminated, you've actually got the radioactive material on you, and then you, yourself, become a carrier of that. Contamination is a thing that is more to be feared than just the radiation itself, but you have to control the radiation. Just understanding how to best preserve it. Now we haven't learned all our lessons yet on how to control all the fuel and the reactors, for instance. We haven't got a disposal method that--we're still arguing about how we're going to take care of those spent fuel elements and that sort of thing in our commercial reactors. And we have to learn to do that, but I think now—I just read an article the other day in the paper about the dangers we have from just fossil fuels or even the wind machines and so forth. They are not free of environmental problems. And so you've got to learn to live with radiation and, hopefully, that can be reactors, new generation reactors can be a source of power that will eliminate all these problems. Even the possibility of burning the fuel up to where it’s used up rather than create contamination. There are some real lessons to be learned yet.</p>
<p>Arata: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet that you'd like to tell me about?</p>
<p>Leitz: Well, I told you about Nixon and the time when all the reactors were shut down. 65 billion kilowatt hours were generated by N Reactor before it was finally shut down. That's a lot of electrical power. At one time we were really the leading reactor insofar as the power generated, but that didn't last long as the new, larger reactors came online. But for a while, we were running the race. We overtook some of the smaller ones.</p>
<p>Arata: I understand you were at the closure last year.</p>
<p>Leitz: Yeah, last year I went out to closure. [LAUGHTER] That's almost funny because I found out they're going to have a shutdown, so I was trying to go. And this lady called to explain to my wife that--I wasn't home--that I wasn't invited. And she says, well, he thinks he's Mr. N Reactor. He thinks you ought to invite him, and after she talked to him, they invited me to go. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that’s kind of--</p>
<p>Arata: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in and sharing your stories with us. We really appreciate it. We'll get some images of your award and you picture now.</p>
<p>Leitz: Yeah.</p>
Location
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Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
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00:39:47
Bit Rate/Frequency
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197 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
C Reactor
N Reactor
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca.1955-1987
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F.
Nixon, Richard
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Emil Leitz
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Emil Leitz conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Nuclear waste disposal
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-11-07
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
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2016-06-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
C Reactor
General Electric
Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963
N Reactor
Richland (Wash.)
Washington Public Power Supply System
White Bluffs (Wash.)
-
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66083871458fac8b8095454b1f11ba2f
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ee348740ff5bd1e247f32a02bcc137a.mp4
47755ac0406ca2312d3b6d8e09e2ccb4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
William McCollough
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span class="SpellingError SCX40238283">McCollough_William</span></span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So let's start by just having you say your name, and spell it for us.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">William McCullough</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, I'm William McCullough. W-</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span class="SpellingError SCX40238283">i</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">-l-l-</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span class="SpellingError SCX40238283">i</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">-a-m M-c-C-u-l-l-o-u-g-h.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Thank </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you. Today's date is October 22</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX40238283">nd</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> of</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> 2013 and we're conducting this interview on a campus of Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">State University Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you tell us how you came to Hanford, what brought</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you here, how you heard about the place, that sort of thing.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Wel</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">l, back in 1950, my brother Dee--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">he was working here at H</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">anford—he came up here in 1944.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> And in fact he</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">was in a reactor at the time that they started B Reactor up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Anyway, he came down to Salt Lake, which is where I was living, just before Christmas time. I was working for</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> Utah Willow M</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ills at the time, as a shipping clerk. My wife was pregnant, and it became pretty obvious that a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">shipping clerk and a wife with a baby just is not going to make it. We don't have enough money. So I knew I had to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">change jobs.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">He came up and said, well, if you'd like to, I could probably get you on at Hanford, if you want to come up there. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> said okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, let's check into that. Well, I sent in an application, and all of a sudden, all the neighbors started getting</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">visits from the FBI, to check my backgrou</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nd. And they finally decided, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> he’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> safe enough. And so, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">came up here in August 27, 1951 and started work here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Be</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">fore I came up here though, I--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Whoops, there it goes. Of course, I was born in Salt Lake. And we just had</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">wonderful parents. I hated to leave them, but I though</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, oh, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">’ve</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> just got to </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">im</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">prove myself.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And so—</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man one</span>: No worries.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay. W</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">hat sort of work did you start with, when you ar</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">rived in 1951? What sort of job</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> did you have?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, we left Salt Lake. I was working</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, like I said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> at Utah Willow Mills. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> half the day, went home, and my dad and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">my wife's grandfather, they loaded up this big U-Haul trailer. In fact, I haven't seen one as big, it was a Croft</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">trailer. It was built out over the wheels, on the trailer. And they kept putting that stuff on, and putting stuff on, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">putting stuff on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> And finally, I said D</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ad, you know, it's not going to all go on there. And he said, there's no top on the trailer, why</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">can't you? And it w</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">as very top heavy. Find out I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> going to have trouble, because the first time I tried to stop at a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">stoplight, I couldn't.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> [LAUGHTER] But a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nyway, drove up there, left</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> on</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> a Saturday night. We stopped at Jerome, Idaho, and then continued on driving, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">we got into town at about 2:30 in the morning. Really </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">worn out, crying baby. At the time we had</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> this little girl that was just five months</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> old. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> pulled in my brother's yar</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">d, he had lived in an R</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> house, which is a very nice house, with a full</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">basement.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">He told us, you could live here until you get housing. So he pulled me there, and we went out to the employment</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">office. It was 8 o'clock in the morning, and we checked in, and it took about an hour, and they said, well, we're</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">going to send you out </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">to the 300 Area to work. But we’re not going to do it </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">today</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">;</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> you can go home and take the rest of</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the day off, report there tomorrow. Oh boy, just what I needed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And sure enough, we went and got introduced to the 300 Area, the next day, on Tuesday.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">What were your first impressions of Richland, and the area, when you first arrived?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> that</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> first day?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Or, in those early days when you first came here.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, I realized it's quite a small town, but I was quite impressed with it. In fact, we've always enjoyed it, living here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">It</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> is, it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">'s smaller, but enjoyable.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So you said you started work at the 300 Area, what sort of work were you doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, the 300 Area</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I don't know if you're familiar with this, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">their main job was to make the fuel elements.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">The</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> uranium came in billets, and they put them in an</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> extrusion press and put them</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> out into rods, 20 feet long.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And then </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they'd send it over to the 313 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">uilding, where they'd machine it to the diameter, and then they would can</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">it. And the urani</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">um really oxidizes fast. So as soon as they machine it, they've got to use it. And o</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">f course, they gave it a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nitric acid bath, before they can it. And then they sent it over to the canning and dipping line, or what we liked to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> call it, the </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span class="SpellingError SCX40238283">dip’n’</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span class="SpellingError SCX40238283">dunking</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> line, to can it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">If you went over to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">—well, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">your canning line consisted </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">of four molded, molten metal pots. Each po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t had a different</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">metal in it, all molten, very hot. And we essentially canned metal. And to do this, we had to have full coveralls on,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">we had gloves that went from here, all the way up to here. We had a hood to protect us. And spats on our feet, to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">protect our shoes from the splattering metal.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And the canning line was extremely uncomfortable,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> and it was not unusual to get a splash, as I said, that metal is</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">running at 550 degrees, so it's pretty hot. And it was kind of an uncomfortable place to work, but the pay was</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">good. We worked two weeks of day shift, and one week of swing shift, which was a nice shift. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> we actually had this—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they would take</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">your me</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">tal, and put it in the first po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t, and agitate it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">. And it would come out this po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t, and put into a centrifuge, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">throw off all the excess metal.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And th</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">en they put it into a second pot</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">. I could tell you what it was, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ut it might be classified, I don’t want to </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">get in trouble. They</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">put it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> into this next molten metal po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t. And again, work it in there a bit, leave it for so many minutes, take that out</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and put in a centrifuge.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">There was a clock on the wall, which was going very slowly, and it'd tell you exactly which cycle it was supposed to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> go into. You'd say okay, po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t one, and then </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you came over and </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">it'd say centrifuge, and you'd put in the centrifuge. And you go on to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nex</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t one, po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t two, centrifuge, and you go down to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">well</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, you wait for the po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t three. And there you washed them a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">little bit, to make sure you get </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">all, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">everything off it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And then they pick them up an</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">d take them over to the next po</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t, which is molten metal also, and you'd actually slip</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">them into the cans, under the molten metal, to can them. And you put a little cap on it, and then take it out and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">move it over to the quench tank, to cool it down. And after they got through there, you'd take it down to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">fluoroscope, take the newly canned metal, uranium.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And they could see the end of y</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">our metal, and so they'd say, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, we need to cut this can back to here, so far. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">’d</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> cut it to size, to the length they wanted, and then they sent it to the next station, and welded the cap onto it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And then they had to take it out</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">next </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">station, another fluoride,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> to make sure that it was cut right, they made sure it's to specs. And then they'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">take it to the next station and they had what they called a frost machine, and they'd run it through induction coil</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and they'd spray this frost on it and it went through and tried to bake it on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And if it's a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ny air pockets or anything in the ca</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">n, it would show up and they'd have to discard it and start over again. If</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">it didn't show as it having any air pockets in it, they'd put it into a pallet. The pallet held 300 slugs, pieces of metal,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> and ship it out to the 100 </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reas.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And so as a result, as </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">an operator you worked the canning l</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ine and also each of the other stations. You rotated</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">so to kind of share the </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">canning line </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">with everybody.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">You mentioned that the metal could sort of splash and get on the protective clothing?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: Yes. As I say, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">e had these leather gloves and this asbestos covering all the way up to the shoulders to protect our arms.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And we also had a full face shield over us and a hood. But you still got splatter occasionally and there's something</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">about that molten metal and all the clothes you have on that no matter how many times you take a shower you</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> had this odor about you. It </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">just kind of bakes in. And so my wife could always te</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ll when I was working the canning line</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And it was dangerous. We took our break one time</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">we got a 10-minute break in the morning and 10-minute</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">break in the afternoon and of course a lunch break</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">but while we was on a break they brought in what they called</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">a coverage crew. Because these furnaces, they're going to keep generating the same amount of heat.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So they had to try and maintain</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> temperature of the pots so that</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> when we</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> as operators came back in, that the pots would be</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ready to go again. So they'd stir them. They had a big paddle, they'd stir them. Well, this particular paddle had a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">flaw in it, and this coverage guy, he would ta</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ke these paddles and put them all in</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> the quench tank to cool it down</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and then he'd go and stir it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, that paddle had a flaw in it and got just a dab of water in it, and when he put that down into it, it blew up. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ceiling was about 20 feet high, and it splattered that ceiling. It just emptied that pot out. You wouldn't think a few</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">drops of water would do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And then it came down on top of him. Very severe burns. We all worked out there for 150 years, and it's the only</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">time I've ever saw that somebody got hurt. Safety was always stressed so hard out there. They didn't want</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">accidents. But that's the only time that I ever saw it, and it's scary. And they made sure enough that you do not put</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">these paddles in water.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nd a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">bout what time frame would it have been when that accident occurred?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">That would have been 1951, or '52, bec</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ause I went out to 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reas in 1954, so it would have been in the time</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> frame of '51—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">t would have been that three-year time frame.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">You said that operator was severely burned. Did he recover?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Oh yeah. I think he may have c</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ome back on disability, though. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ecause he was very severely burned.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So you worked as an operator there for about three years?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: From 1951 to 1954. In 1954, I went out—u</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">p until 1954, your seniority was all one. To work in the reactors, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you had to start</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">rea,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> and it's all on seniority. And when you got enough seniority in 300 Area, usually you would go to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reas.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well just in 1953 or what have you they said, we're going to one chance one chance only. If you want to go to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reas you go right now. If you don't take it now, you'll be a whole new seniority group. You'll start at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">bottom again.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So my wife and I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> we got to thinking about it, didn't want round-the-clock work, but I knew I didn't want to work the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Canyon Line all my life either. So at that point I </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">went out there in January 1954, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I went out to the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reas to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">work.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And so your job in the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reas was as an operator?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">As an operator. Your operators out there they had a pile operator that then they decided </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">pile operator does</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">n't</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">sound right, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">we’ll call</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> them reactor operators. We had the reactor operator and then had the utility operator,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">which is essentially an operator that doesn't have the seniority or the knowledge to advance to become a reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">operator.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So I went out there as a utility operator, and they have what they called a roving crew, which is they rotate from all</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the different reactors. Any time the reactor is shut down, they would go ahead and assist them and give the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">reactor crew some help. </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Because there was also a lot of overtime because of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So I was put on this supplemental crew as a utility operator, and I worked out there for about a year, and they shift</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">me into the C reactor. At that time the C reactor was the newest reactor, and they put me in there as the utility</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">operator to work. And so I worked there as a utility operator. What it meant </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">was </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I couldn't sit at the control board, and I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">worked outside the control room pretty well. Didn't work in the control room hardly at all</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> on</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ly on</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> as-needed basis.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Worked with a fellow by the name of Ted Lewis. Can I put names?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I worked for him. He was a supervisor and the control room specialist was Cliff Brenner. Both were very strict, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">if this is what the book says, this is what you are going to do.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> Well, I worked there at</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> C reactor for a bit, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they were starting to get hurting</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> for pile operators or reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">operators, and my boss Ted Lewis came out and said, Bill, you are not qualified, but I'm going to qualify you if</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they promise that they will not shift you out and take you away from me until you get trained.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And so on that stipulation, after a year out there as a utility operator</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> I was made a pile operator. And at that time I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">could sit at the control room and take my turn at the control board with Cliff Brenn</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">er looking over my shoulder, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Ted Lewis looking over his shoulder came out pretty good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Can you explain maybe a little more detail what the sort of task that sitting at the control board would mean? What</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">sorts of t</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">asks were you're doing?</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> You're sitting at the control board. What are you looking for? What sort of things</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">are you keeping your eye on?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">The old reactors they had nine control rods to control the reactor. C reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> they put in 15 total, and when you sat</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">at the control board you had these </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">selsuns </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">which shows the position of the rods and you had the instrument</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">down here showing essentially where the temperatures of different tubes to give</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> you an overall picture of what </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the temperature of the reactor is.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And so you just sit there and then you had a galvanometer up here showing a change of power level. And then up</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">here you had a big dial which showed you the actual power level.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">The power level indicator up here is very slow. It's calculated by taking the inlet temperature water and the outlet</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">temperature water, and doing a </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">bunch of calculating through the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> factors and it comes out as this is your power</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">level.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">But this is very slow. It takes about three minutes to catch the actual changes and catch up. So you watch this</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">galvanometer to get your fill in for if the power level changes at all</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> and </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">then </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you go ahead and pull the rods in or out as</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">needed to hold the power level. And you have the temperatures monitoring showing</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> you</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> where the heat might be</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">shifting to. And so you try to maintain a good, even distribution of the power.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Of course the chief operator or the specialist is telling you what you need to do, and sometimes you have to move</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">or swap rods because the temperature is changing quite rapidly. The thing about that called Xenon poisoning,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">which it's—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">pours out portions of the r</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">eactor, so we have to find out all the time</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">. So the heat is a continual</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">movement all the time, and so we had to know it. And so that's what we were doing at the control board.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">We had two operators inside the control room, and each operator would sit for two hours at the control board, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the other operator would be walking around the control room, taking readings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">then you'd swap.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">The interesting thing about it, I don't know</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> when you work graveyard</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">—I don’t know if you’ve—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you can get extremely sleepy along about 6</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">o'clock in the morning. The fact is you feel like you'd like to lay down and die. And so then you do things to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">stimulate your mind and keep you alert.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ne morning I was sitting there at the control board and I thought, oh boy, I'm tired. And then they didn't allow</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">coffee pots in the control room, so if s</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">omebody was going to go out, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">'d get some coffee and they brought it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">back in from the lunch room.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And I got my mind going. I thought, gee, y</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ou have a coffee pot and it perc</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">s. How long would that tube have to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> before it wouldn't perc</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> anymore? And we had a good time talking about it, laughing about it, and it kept me awake.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And so then about 7:30</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> here comes in your day shift. And of course they had an engineer assigned to the area.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">He came in to check how everything was going. I said, "Hey, I've got a question for you. How long could that tube</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">be and still p</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">erc</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">?"</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And we kind of laughed and talked a bit. Well then I didn't see him again. We changed shift and went on change</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> probably</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> wasn't until I came back in a month, and by that time he was gone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, here he comes back with a three-page document based on you've got to know the quality of the coffee.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> What brand is the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> coffee? What is the pH of the water? And like an engineer. But we all looked at him. And we still</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">got a big laugh. I still have that write-up at home that he gave me. But anyway </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> things like that we went through.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And how long did you work as an operator?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I worked at C reactor for</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">can I look at notes?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Oh</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> sure</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So I was at C reactor from January 1955 to December 1960, so about five years. Then I went on a supplemental</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">crew, and then I went back to C reactor for a while.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">But then in 1960</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> they offered me a promotion to be a r</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">eactor specialist at the 100 B reactor—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">that was the initial one. So I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> we</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nt to B reactor and worked as a reactor specialist. That means I had the full responsibility of the control room.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Your operating crew consists of a supervisor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">by that time what they used to call the chief operator they were now</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">chief reactor specialist.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">They have your supervisor and reactor specialist, which are both monthly paid supervisory jobs. And then they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">had five operators, which consists of the operating crew. I forget where I was going now.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, well, you’re t</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">alking about being a reactor specialist at B reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, and your responsibility there</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So I just stayed in that position at B reactor from 1960 to 1964. And in 1964 they started shutting reactors down,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">or before the time. And I watched them go down and go down and I thought, you know, I better get out of here,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">because I'm going to lose my job.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">By that time I had six children. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> thought, no, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I can't afford to be laid off. So I know well I'm going to drop back into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">bargaining unit and pick up my seniority so they have a lot more people to lay off before you get to me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And so I stayed back there as an operator for a year or so. And everything quieted down, I thought maybe I'll</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">just go ahead and they offered </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">me, they said, h</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ey Bill, would you like to come back to the reactor specialist</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> again? I said, oh, I'd love to. </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">About a month after that, they announced they were going to shut down the D reactor, and I thought, well, I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I'll get laid off here. So I started looking for another job. There was something else I was going to say and </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">got</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">sidetracked.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Let me ask you about w</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">hen you moved to B reactor from C r</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">eactor, you became a reactor specialist </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">which meant</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, as you said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> more supervision and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">responsibility, was there a significant difference between the two reactors</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> themselves</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">A big difference. </span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Could you explain?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: B reactor had nine control rods;</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> C reactor had 15, which meant that we had that much better</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">control. The old reactors</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> there's a big gap between the top bank of rods and the top of the reactor, the active</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">zone, and also the bottom row. As a result, by that time, they had developed these spines and we could put in</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">temporary poison spines and pull them back out again to supplement the control rods.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">B reactor you had to do a lot more front face work</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> because that Xenon poisoning built up here and this area will</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">die off and you shift down here and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> know</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> this rate cycle</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> and a lot of times you had a lot of front face work to be doing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">C reactor you had this other bank of rods, which made a big difference. So the C reactor's a lot easier reactor to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">operate.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Were there ever any, during your years working at either of those reactors, any things happen, any emergencies</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">or critical issues in the reactor?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">W</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">as there w</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">hat now?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Were there ever any emergencies or critical issues at any time at either reactor?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Not really. We had lots of problems in that during the charge/discharge quite often the hot fuel elements were</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> dropped </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">down amongst</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">instead of dropping in the basin they'd fall in the back pig tails and get so you couldn't go in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">rear f</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ace at all.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Then you had to figure out how to get them out amongst the tubes. You had to bring in fire hoses and everything</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">else, and yet you couldn't stick your head around. You had to do it all by mirrors to get them out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">But in general, not major problems. I might point out</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> I guess it's when I was at C reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> decided they was</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">going to bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ild a nuclear ship, NS Savannah. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nd so they brought the captain, or there was two of them came in</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the C reactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Now not too many people know thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">s, because it's dropped off in history</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, but they came in and trained and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">learned how to use nuclear material at the C reactor and after they left, they sent a ship.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">They presented a nice big model of the NS Savannah</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> which C reactor kept in a control room as a memorial to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">fact that we did do this work towards turning atoms into plowshares. That was something we were always real</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">proud of.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So you talked about shifts starting to take place, the beginning of the shutting down of reactors and less</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">production at some point. How did that impact your work? Did you shift to other kinds of jobs there?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Do you mean out there?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Not in the reactor, of course. If the reactor goes down, that takes everything down. So if you wanted to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Yeah, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">if the reactor goes down, it's just your jobs are lost. Let me see if there's anything else.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Did you work at N reactor for a little while?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Actually what happened is that</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> following my progression, I finally decided I had to leave. I started looking for jobs,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and I heard that they were going to build a brand-new</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> reactor, the FFTF, the Fast Flu</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">x Test Facility. So I thought</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">maybe I can get on that. So I put an application down there and I got in contact that said they wanted an interview.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So I went</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> on and interviewed with Pat Cavil. </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">He says, we are going to monitor the engineering and help them</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">to you build this new reactor. And so I took that job. I didn't k</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">now anything about engineering—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">about planning and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">scheduling, but they said, we'll train </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So I went down there with three other men</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> and he gave us </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">an extensive</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> c</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">lass on planning and scheduling. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">nd we'd go on and </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">contact the engineer and say, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, what job is it that you need to do? And what needs to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">done before you can do that? Which actually made a critical path. And then we'd monitor their progress to see</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">how—if it’s going to show up</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> in time</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> to help them out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So we did all the planning and scheduling for the engi</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">neers and the planners. And it’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> enjoyable work. Didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">have much in the way of computers them days. If we had to get information, we'd use a mainframe.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">They</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> had a great</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> big, big, big computer in the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">uilding, and we'd use that and take it down there and they'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">put all the information into the computer and it draws a great big chart and we looked at it and showed people</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">where they're at and what's going to have to be done in what order. It's fun. I did that for several years down</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> There again, like ever</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ything else, things didn't look too good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> It's funny on the FFTF they said we ought to make</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">that into a power producer. That way you can go ahead and do your experimental stuff and get some electricity</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">out o</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">f it. And the engineers and no. N</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">o, no. This is our toy. You're not going to dictate to us when we shut down</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and when you're going to operate it. We want to do it without any outside influence.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> here when they shut the thing down--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the FFTF down finally, if they would have just listened and hooked that up to produce</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">electricity, it would still be going. That was a 400-megawatt plant. And it would still be going now if they didn't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the idea that we're not going to be dictated by a bunch of power producers. We're going to run it the way we want</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">to. Well, they did. They shut it down.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I wond</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">er, taking you back to the 300 Area, B Reactor and C R</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">eactor, what was the most challenging part of your</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">work at Hanford? And maybe what was the most rewarding part of the work</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> you did at Hanford</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">The most rewarding and challenging is when I was made a reactor specialist. It was real rewarding to go in there</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and find out you have a bunch of heat up here and cold down here and figure just do this, this and this and maybe</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I can get it all on your control recorders that are right next to your operator.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">We would select tubes representative of the area. So we would select a tube up here, a tube over here, a tube</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">here, a tube here and on down to monitor. And then we'd try and bring the temperatures closer together so that</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the reactor is more balanced.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Of course the more balanced you get then you're further away from the limit, so then you raise your power level.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">So that was a real challenge to go in there and see what a mess the previous shift had left you and then go in</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">there because the heat is always</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the heat, which is also in reactivity, is always shifting in the reactor. So it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">fun to go in and see just how flat you can get it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I thoroughly enjoyed the job. It was is nice. It was a good job, a very rewarding job. That's probably the most</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">rewarding job I had.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">You mentioned earlier that the incident happened when you were working at</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">rea of the worker who was—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">pile exploded. Were there ever any other incidents</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and it doesn't have to be a safety incident</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">but things that</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">sort of stand out your mind that in your memory is really unique things that happened during your time working at</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Hanford? Any special events or happenings that really stand out in your mind from your time working there?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">No, off hand I can't think of anything. Could I have a drink of water?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">There's water right there.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: Let me look at my notes here and see if I’m missing.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, one thing about the reactor specialist is that I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> essentially</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> control of the reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> but I didn't have any manpower</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">problems. The supervisor, he had personnel problems and everything else, but as a reactor specialist, if the</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">peo</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ple were bellyaching, I'd say, go see the boss. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> It was very good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Also, backtracking, the bus system out there was phenomenal. If you lived in Rich</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">land, the bus system, the buses—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you wouldn't never walk more than a block and you'd be picked up to go to work. And you'd get on the bus and do</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> your thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">. What was interesting, some people</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> w</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ould play cards. They would get</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> the four seats and put their leg</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">through the seat so they're all facing, and they'd play b</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ridge</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> or play pinochle.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">For many years before I got there they were playing poker. In fact, reading I find out that a lot of people they did</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">such a good job on poker</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> they'd just ride the buses back and forth. </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">But the buses were just absolutely fantastic,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and people were reading, sleeping, what have you, but good bus system.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And t</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">hat's how everyone got to work, pretty much,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> is that correct? The</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> buses?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">How would you describe the community of Richland, during the 1950s especially?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: Oh, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">y the way, just one back to the reactors. To give you a feel for the advancements we made in the reactors in</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">op</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">erating. I can't talk pell-mell with a guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, but the design rating of B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">eactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">by the time I got out of there, it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">hasn't quite doubled the design of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> Well, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">y the time I go out there until I left</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, by a factor of eight to ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> power level. They just cranked that pile up just</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">because of a better knowledge, better fuel. And it's amazing that you do take a Model T and you go ahead and</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">you</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> can</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> drive down the highway at 10 or 15 miles an hour and say, boy, look how fast I'm going.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">And all of a sudden you're, going 150 miles an hour, that's about what they out there with the reactors is take</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">these old Model T's and kept improving </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">them, </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">and improving them, getting the water to flow into them. And it </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">just </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">is amazing</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">how much power we got out of there. In fact, we got it at such </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">a high power level they said, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, let's cut back to</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">try and preserve the reactors so they</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> could</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> operate longer. So we actually took a mandatory cutback.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">We really did a good, good</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">, good job or reducing plutonium. Of course, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">y the time I was out of there, I got thinking sooner or later</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">they're going to say, hey, we have enough plutonium</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">—we have enough plutonium</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> to destroy the entire world. Someday they're going to start</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">shutting the reactors down, an</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">d sure enough they did. That's kind of it</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Overall, how would you assess your years working at Hanford? How was it as place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">I found it a fantastic place. In fact, working at Hanford, working in that community</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> you </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">figure that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">W</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> ended up</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">having six children. My wife never had to work out of the home. I made enough money out there</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">there</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> was a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">of overtime</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">but we had both agreed that we would not use overtime to live off of.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">It would be stuff that we wouldn't normally buy like a boat,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> or a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> trailer,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> camper, a new truck. Hanford itself has been</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> good to me</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">. And the area is fantastic. You couldn't ask for anything better than that.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, I thank you very much for coming today and sharing your experiences working at Hanford. I appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Well, I sure appreciate being able t</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">o get in here and talk with you. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">ecause it's exciting, too. I'd like people to know</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">what went on out there and how safety was a primary concern out there. Everything we did it had to take your</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">safety always, always came first. It has been good place.</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">As I said, I raised six children, and they love this place so good that they all live locally</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> except one. Her husband</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">thought maybe he had job advancement, so he moved to Tennessee about three or</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> four years ago. Up until</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> that</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">time we have the whole family living here. Pretty nice.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah. All right, well, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">hank you again, appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX40238283"><span class="TextRun SCX40238283"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">McCullough</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX40238283">Thank you.</span><span class="EOP SCX40238283"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:48:18
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
254kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
313 Buidling
100 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
D Reactor
N Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1951-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1951-1960
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Lewis, Ted
Brenner, Cliff
Cavil, Pat
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William McCullough
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with William McCullough conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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10/22/2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2016-06-14: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland.
100 Area
300 Area
313 Building
B Reactor
C Reactor
D Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.)
N Reactor
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ffe043af3846776e389ff8a8681a88431.jpg
1d9746b2f7feed8074166fc471965977
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F36e58cb630d8fbdedc6ee21db97c8258.mp4
06e803929dbc9370d6cde92f8b1e162e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pre-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span class="SpellingError SCX30075691">Kaas_Gordon</span></span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman:</span> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So just for official purposes, my name is Robert Bauman and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Gordon Kaas. Is it Kaa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Gordon Kaas:</span> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Ok</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. On June 12, 2013. And the interviews are being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Cities. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And I'll be talking with Mr. Kaa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s about his family's history and memories about their experiences in Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">growing up in that community.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> So maybe, Mr. Kaa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s, you can tell me, first of all, a little bit about your family and maybe how your family came to</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the Richland area.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well my father was an immigrant from Denmark and he came here right after the turn of century. Lived in Madras,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oregon for a while and his brothe</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r was up here in Richland. He co</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">me up here and he was a farmer. He bought</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">some ground here in what's North Richland and planted the majority of the acreage to apples.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">His brother took care of the orchard for about the first three years while he lived in Madras, Oregon. That's where</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">he met my mother and they were married. And they moved up here I think it wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s 1915, after the orchard began to bear</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My oldest brother was born in Madras, and then I've got two older brothers, Nelson and George, that were born</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">here, plus my only sister, and then myself and my twin brother. The three older brothers are deceased now but</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">my sister and my twin brother are still living.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And do they live in the area here?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My sister lives in Kennewick. That's Alice Chapman, her husband James, live in Kennewick. And my twin brother</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and I married sisters, but they live in Kenai, Alaska. And he was a plumber.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">When I got out of high school, we had moved to Kennewick in 1943, because the government said to pack your</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">belongings and go, you've got 30 days. However, we lived far enough north that they gave permission for those</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that lived up on from here, there's a little rise in the contour, that area they let farm their crop that year. So instead</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">of moving in February or March, we didn't move until November of 1943. That's where the remaining five of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">six children were born.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So you'd mentioned your father came from Denmark.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what you know about why he came to the United States, and maybe the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">same for your mother.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, my </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">mother was an immigrant also, e</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">migrated from Prince Edward Island, Canada. And I had the pleasure</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">of visiting back there this past summer. First time I'd ever been there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My father came over because of the opportunities that were in the US, and there was a lot of people moving to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> New W</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">orld. His background was farming. I think I mentioned he was the youngest of 12 children, and two brothers</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and a sister had immigrated over here ahead of him. So he had a little forewarning of what was here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And at that time, this area here in Hanford and White Bluffs was a fairly new irrigation area and was attracting</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">people from around the coun</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">try</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">, and around the world, I guess you could say. Because there was other Danes</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and Norwegians and Swedes here. When I was small, when I grew up, we had an apple orchard. But during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Depression in the ‘30s</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">, apples was one thing that people didn't have to have and consequently, the market</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">went away. And at that time, peppermint was coming in and he </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">hired a county bulldozer to come in and bulldoze</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the trees out and planted peppermint. And raised peppermint, as long as we was on the farm.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I should clarify that in 1949 I lost my father, and I and my twin brother were between our sophomore and junior</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">year in high school, so we became the farmers. And that was after we had moved from Richland to Kennewick.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We had a 40 acre farm here in Richland and the war took my three oldest brothers. My father had the option of</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">keeping one of them at home to help on the farm, but he wouldn't do that. My sister, and my twin brother and</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">myself</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> became farmers fairly quick. And then we moved to Kennewick in 1943, and in 1948 he had come down</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">with cancer. And in '49, he passed away in the middle of August of '49.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">By that time my twin brother and I was the only ones still in school and we became students and farmers both.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And then after we graduated from high school, my mother leased the place out. And I ended up taking a job out in</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Hanford. I worked out there for 21 years, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> never got the thought of the fa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">rm out of my head. In 1972 my wife</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and I and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">we had two children at that time, a son and a daughter. And we bought a farm six miles north of Pasco. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that's been our home ever since.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So you returned to your farming roots?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> What about your mother? You said your father passed away, unfortunately, in 1949. How about your</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">mother?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My mother lived for some years later. I think she died in-- I can't remember the da</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">te on it like I can my father—</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">but</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">in the mid '70s. I think it was '78 that she passed away. And at that time the farm was being sold for plots for</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">houses</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> and now it's all houses.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So how many so how many children were there in your family then? How many siblings did you have?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">There were six.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Six, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I had three older brothers. Then my sister come along. And then to finish out the six was my twin brother and I.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">You and your twin brother. And you and your twin brothe</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r were born in hospital</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We were the only ones that were born in the hospital. Because thought there might be some complications. So we</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">were born in the Pasco Lady of Lourdes Hospital. The rest were all at home.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And you talked about how the primary crop was apples for quite a wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ile until at some point in the D</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">epression you</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">shifted to peppermint. Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And were there other crops that you grew as well?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, we had of course, alfalfa because we had a few livestock. We had asparagus. And that was up early and</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that was the asparagus fields. My three older brothers were in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">he service. Two of them in the A</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">rmy and one in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Navy. We'd get up early and go cut asparagus.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And when we were left on our farm through the summer we'd see everything booming out here, trucks going by.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We lived right on </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">George Washington Way. And we'd be out in the field and watching the trucks headed north</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">where</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> the construction was going on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And we had strawberries. We had a few potatoes. Then, of course, peppermin</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t. And all that ground was real </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">irrigated.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">How was that irrigated?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Real irrigated where you had corrugates that the water ran down. And so I was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">changing water twice a day. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">my father worked from daybreak to dawn. But as t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ime went on, we were more help. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">After the military took my three brothers my dad bought a tractor. And he didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> like the tractor. He liked the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">horses. So my twin brother and I, we got a lot of practice on the tractor. He put</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> us out on the field and get us </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">started an</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d he'd go do some other chores. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We, my twin brother and I, we continued to farm the Kennewick farm. Which, was d</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ownsized. It was only 20 acres. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">At that time though, you could mak</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e a living on a farm that size. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But I lost my oldest brother in the war. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the next oldest one was in the A</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">my and over in Germany. And the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">third from the top was in th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e Navy and over in the Pacific. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And after the war was over they came home and took jobs out at Hanford, my rem</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">aining two brothers. And when I </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">finished school I got a job out there. And my brother worked out there. My twin brother worked out there on</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> construction. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I was a power operator. And in 1972 I'd been wanting to get out on</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> farm and I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">, I got to make the move before </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I'm 40 or I'm going to give it up. And we found a place to</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> buy. And it's been good to us. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My main crop, it started off being alfalfa and wheat and sweet corn. But after a </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">couple years I got into raising </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">potatoes. And that ended up being our main crop until I quit farming.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Got it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Let me just go back and ask you another question, too, about your family farm that you grew up on. So were the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">re </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">other buildings besides the houses? The barn? Any other buildings? And you said it was 40 acres. Is that correct?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">40.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And so I wonder how large the house was? Were there any other buildings as well that were part of the farm?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, back then it didn't take as much a house as it does today. When my f</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">olks moved up here from Madras, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oregon--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and I can't tell y</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ou--I think it was around 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">17 or 1918. They </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">had the ground but there was no buildings on it. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But there was a small house. I think it was about a two-room house that my d</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ad's brother and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">him</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> moved from what would be over on--is that--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">what st</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">reet is that? Over to the west? </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Anyway, they moved it from there to onto Georgia Washington Way where we live</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d. And then he added onto that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And then just before the government came in, we had enlarged the house and th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e next year was another project </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">to finish it. But it started off being a two bedroom. And small ones at that.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Now, it was originally, was there an outhouse? What did you have?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We didn't have neither electricity or r</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">unning water in the house until--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">it was about 1940.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So not too long before the war.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And that was a big improvement. My mother didn't have to pack water for the washing machine or carry it out. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">we didn't have any electricity.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So the washing machine had a little gas </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">engine on it. And like most, Monday was wash day. And that'd be all she'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">get done except cooking some meals.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So was there a well?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes, we had a well.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">That was before my time. But I remember that he had a nephew that came </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">over from Denmark plus my uncle </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">lived here and there was a hand-dug well. And that was on the proper</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ty that is the Energy Northwest </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">h</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">eadquarters now.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. And what about neighbors? Who were your closest neighbors? Were there other famili</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">es that you </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">socialized with?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>: Well, yes. We had one neighbor that lived right across the road. And others close</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. I can say there was one, two, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">three</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">about five that lived in walking distance. You know</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">, a 20-minute walk at the most. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">It was interesting. In the early spring of 1943 there was a number of cars that ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d come into town. And they were driving different places. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">It was late enough that some farmers were out in the field. The next day they were </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">all in town at the schoolhouse. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And they called to me and said that the whole community, including White Bluffs i</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">n Hanford was being evicted for a government project. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And that's all they would say. Nobody knew what was ready going on out t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">here until after the bombs were </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">dropped. And it was interesting when those people that were here d</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">riving in cars were appraisers. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And they were going around and appraising the farms of how much to give th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e farmers for it. Some got very </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nervous. They thought if you didn't take the first</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> they might just haul you out in handcuffs </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">or whatever. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But they allowed if you didn't accept for the third appraisal. My father a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ccepted the third appraisal. My </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">grandmother, she got nervous. And they got her to sign. I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">it was on the second appraisal. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But my father, if you didn't sign and take the third appraisal, then they would take it</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> to court. But they give you, I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">it was 80% of the offer. And there were a few that took it to cou</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">rt. But my father thought the--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But the surprising part about that is the farmers that took the money and couldn'</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t find a farm, the price of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">farmland was going up so fast that what would buy a farm when they got the mo</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ney, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> year later was probably only half enough. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So those people put a hardship on them. But I can't say our situation put a hardship. Becau</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">se we was able to find </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">a farm and it was a good form.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Do you have any idea how much your parents got for the farm?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">You know, I've been wondering that myself. But what I can tell you is that the 20</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> acre farm we got, it had a big </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">house on it. It had a five-bedroom house plus porch,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> front and back. It was $7,200. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And I'm sure it was in that neighborhood, maybe a little more. Because it was 40 a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">cres rather than 20. And it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the only house still standing in North Richland until it too was torn down oh, 15, 20 years ago.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oh, it stood for that long?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> because the criteria was that if it had indoor plumbing and electricity they </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">would save it if they could and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">somebody would move into it. And a pa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">trolman that was hired by the--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">well, I guess it was GE back then. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Or no, it </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">was DuPont.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">DuPont?</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Mm-hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">He want</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ed that house. And he got the okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> on it. But he would come by about e</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">very three or four days and see </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">what the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> progress was of us moving out. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">He was anxious to move in. There was a shortage of homes. And it was used for liv</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ing for a few years and then it </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">was right in the middle of that big trailer camp that was out here. And it was turned </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">into the office for the trailer </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">camp.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So he moved in shortly after your grandma left then?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes. When he could see the date that we was going to be out, he had his stuff packed and ready to move.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And so how old are you at this time? About 9 or 10 years old? Somewhere in there?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I was 12 years old when we moved.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> So we moved and we were still moving in N</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ovember. Because that's when my </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">birthday</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> is. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And I remember the time we took the tractor with a big trailer we had behind it wi</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">th some of the last things. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">my dad let me drive it after we got off the highway. I was 12 years old. And our </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">farm, in Kennewick, the address </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">was 3904 West Fourth Avenue now.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So what did you think about this at the time as a young boy? You had spent your who</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">le life, at that point, on this </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">farm. And you're suddenly having to move. What did you think? And do you know</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> what your parents thought? Did </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">you talk to them?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, we spent a lot of time driving around to find a farm. We looked up a lot up </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Prosser </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Way. I can remember </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">sitting out in the yard there for a couple of hours, my mother and dad talking. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And there was a nice big house, older house. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">It was a little smaller farmer than we had gotten. They finally decided they would </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">take it. And my dad went to the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">door and said, we've talked it over and we'd like to buy your farm. And they said, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">well, we're sorry. My husband's </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">down at the court house signing papers on it n</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ow. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So we were back to looking again. But you can imagine a 12-year-old. We thought thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s was kind of a thrill, driving </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">around looking at farms and discussing it and where we was going to live. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I can remember several farms we </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">looked at that some of them had a nice house. But the property wasn't the best. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">he soil wasn't the best. But we </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">was happy when we settled on this one in Kennewick.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So for you, maybe the fact that you ended up with a nice farm in Kennewick--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes, it was a nice farm. Kennewick is a little bit rocky. But it's bearable. The farm </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">we had out here in Richland was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">a lot </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">more sandy</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. But heavier soil, you can raise better crops. But sandy soil is easier to farm.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So I want to go back to also talking about your early years here. Where did you g</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">o to school? And what was the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">school like? And how many? How big was the school? That sort of thing?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">The </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">school I went to was built in--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">which was Lewis and Clark school down in</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> south Richland. And the year I </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">started there</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> it was brand new. Because of the D</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">epression there was money f</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">or stuff like that, to generate employment. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And Hanford got a new school. And Richland got a new school. And that's where I s</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">tarted the first grade, my twin </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">brother and I.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My sister was four years ahead of us. So she was in an old school that they immediately tore down after the new</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">school was built. But my dad was a well thought of man here in this area. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> when</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> the irrigation district was in,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">neighbors twisted his arm till </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">he agreed to </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">go on the board for irrigation. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Same for the school district. He was on the board, directors there. In fact, he was</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> the president of the board and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">signed a c</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ouple of my brothers' diplomas. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And after we moved, well, some would know Jay Perry, who was a county co</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">mmissioner in Kennewick. And he </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">came and wanted my dad to run for his pl</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ace. They talked quite a while. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And my dad said, wel</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">l, Jay, that would never work, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ecause you're a Democrat and I'm a R</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">epublican.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> He said, I'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">do anything t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">o get you in. Whether you're a Republican or not. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">at's the only way I knew of </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">what his preference of party. But there was, f</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">or farmers back then, there was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">more done for the farmers than a lot of people.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So do you know how big the school was? Do you know how many students there were about?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, it was an eight-room school, first through the eighth grade. And I would</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> say, there was probably on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">average of at least 20 in each class. Then when things got a little tougher, first,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> well, second grade and half of </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">third was in one room. And the other half of third and the fourth grade was in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nother room. So they were small </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">enoug</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">h then that they could do that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that school was tore down for the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">replacements that there are now. But it was a nic</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e all-brick school that for old </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">time's sake, I hated to see it go. But both of my children started in that school.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oh, did they really?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">For first grade. Because we lived in the south end of Richland at that time. And our</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">what is</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> the--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Justice over in </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Pasco, he went to that school. My son went with him. Cameron Mitchell.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oh, Cameron Mitchell, sure. So what sorts of things did you do for recreational activities growing up on your farm?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oh, main thing for recreational was work. But we did have time. And when we were l</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ittle my dad didn't require us to--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We never were slave labor by any stretch. But we'd roller skate out on the roa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d. There wasn't very many cars. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And we'd play hide and seek and one thing my dad let us do is a couple horse to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">n old sled that we had that was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">about four by six, to a horse. And take our dog and we'd go out hunting j</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ackrabbits. Didn't have a gun. But that </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">dog could catch the jackrabbits. And we'd probably get five</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> or six every time we went out. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">They'd be just wandering out through the sagebrush. We was out at the edge o</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">f the farming community here in </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Richland. So ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e's plenty of sagebrush ground. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And we thought that was great, to go out with the dog. My twin brother and I, an</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d my three cousins from over on </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the coast would come here. I got a picture of it. Looking at it yesterday, that a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ll five of us on that sled, out </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">jackrabbit hunting. But just things like that. What kids </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">do.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Bicycles.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Oh</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Yeah.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> So you were on a farm. Did you go into town much? Into the town of Richland?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, it was a five-mile drive on the school bus. Back then we didn't have t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">hese factory-made school buses. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Generally a farmer would say, I'd like to build a bus and hire it to haul the students.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, there was an aisle down the center that you sat back to back to and then down each side. And it was just</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">made out of an old truck. And we didn't know what heaters were. Wintertime got pretty cold.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">[PHONE RINGS]</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">No cellphones then</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> either.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Huh?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">No cellphones then either.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I meant to take it out. But I forgot it.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">That's all right.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I think I was in about the third grade when we got factory manufactured school bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ses. And they looked as long as </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">a train. And there was three of them. And that picked up stude</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nts all over the Richland area. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And then it wasn't too long after that the government came in and the area just </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">exploded. And it was surprising </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">when you had to, how fast they could put buildings up. They had people in here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> They added onto the school and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">built more schools. But after '43 I wasn't here much.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Did you start going to school in Kennewick then at that point?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes. I think I was in the fifth grade when we moved to Kennewick.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I was wondering about sort of community activities. Do you have any memories of c</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ommunity picnics or 4th of July </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">celebrations? Anything along those lines?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, yes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> In that time, the boat races--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that would be equivalent t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">o what we have now here in the Tri-C</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ities—was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">up at White Bluffs. And I remember, several times being young, going up there and watch the boat r</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">aces. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">en there was community picnics. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I remember looking at some books at the county fair, before they registered at th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e picnics, they had them. Found </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">a couple where my folks, my dad registered as being at the picnic, 4th of July picnic, I think they</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> were. Then there </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">was plenty of family gatherings. Maybe two, three, four families would get together </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and go to the park. But I don't </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">know, it never seemed like we lacked activity.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">What about churches? Were churches close by? Did your family go to church regularly? And where were they?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">What</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> church, you say?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah, churches</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Well, my folks heard the G</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ospel by</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> two homeless ministers in 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">21. And the chur</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ch met in a home. And I'm still </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">in that faith today. We don't have church buildings. So there was churches in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">own. But they accepted that way </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and the family grew up in it.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. So you mentioned earlier, talking about the Depression, and how your fat</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">her then sort of changed crops, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">right? Primary crops. Did you know of any families in the area that maybe lost th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">eir farms? Or did you see any </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">other impact of the Depression for other families or for the town itself?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Well, my uncle</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> lost his--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that lived, oh, half mile or less from us. And I remember my dad saying he wanted him to</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">financially help him. He was a bachelor. He had never married until he was 82, I think. And then he married his</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">sweetheart</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> that he had when he was young.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Wow.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And neither one of them, they were </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">married. They got back together </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">in old age.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">That's quite a story. Wow.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But anyway, my dad had to decline him because he said, Jim, I've got a family. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> if I did that I would probably </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">lose my farm too. And you're single. Realized I hate to say no. But I just don't have i</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t where I can feel that I could </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">do it. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">there were others the same way. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But you have to remember that I was-- that was not something I can physically r</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">emember. I was too early in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">'30s. I was born in '32. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> remember him talking about ones</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> that sold out or it didn</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">'t have any equity and couldn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">make payments. But my father was very frugal. He didn't buy what he couldn't afford,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> which was very little, that he bought. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But yes, when my father decided to push out the orchard, we had a big enough orcha</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">rd. In fact, it was the largest apple orchard in the Tri-C</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ities. I can't tell you how many acres it was. But it was 15 acres or so.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Do you know what kind of apples?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">At that time, Red Delicious. But he made the decision to take the apples out</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> beca</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">use every year he'd be losing a </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">little more money. And plant peppermint. Well, 100 pounds to the acre of peppermin</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t oil was considered excellent. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And I never remember hi</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">m getting less than 100 pounds. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And I remembered selling for $7 a pound. And today the price of oil isn't that much bett</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">er. It's just that the farmers' </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">farms are a lot bigger.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Mm-hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> I think, from what I've heard, I know some people that a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">re farming peppermint and $9 or </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">$10 I think would be an excellent price now.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So what happened with your uncle then? He lost his farm you said? What did he do at that point?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My uncle?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">M</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">m-</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">He moved to Oregon. And lived in Troutdale for quite a while. I think he just hired </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">out. He was a stonemason, brick </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">mason. And I think he made a living at that.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I want to ask you a little bit about, you talked about the war a little bit and that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r older brothers all joined and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">went to serve. Do you remember hearing about the war? And have any memories about that at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah, when the war come on, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">some time</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> during that we got a radio. And I k</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">now my dad listened to the news </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">every evening. My oldest brother, Edward, that was born in Oregon and was the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">only one that wasn't born here, was drafted into the A</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">rmy. And he took his training down in one of the southern st</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ates. I can't remember for sure now if it was Texas, or--. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Anyway, they ended up sending him to a little place by Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> D</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">C</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> that they cal</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">l </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span class="SpellingError SCX30075691">Vint</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Hill Farms. And it was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">training, a special training area. And he worked there as, we'd probably called it </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">a cadre that helps do training. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But there everything was coal fire</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. So in the wintertime they had to keep the furnace going and the hot water</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">heater going and snow </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">removal or whatever. And he never did go overseas. But he was on a laundry run.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And he was riding in the back of a deuce and a half army truck. And a Lincoln hi</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t the truck head on. And he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">thrown up against the cab and killed. So he wasn't-- he didn't see overseas action</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. But I remember that was a sad </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">day for the family.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I imagine. You mentioned having the radio. Did your family get that before the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">war or at some point during the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">war, you remember?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">It was during the war. I don't remember. We didn't have a radio while we were still in Richland.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. You got it after you have moved to Kennewick at some point.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. So how did you get news when you were in Richland? Was there a local newspaper?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah, there was a newspaper. And don't ask me if</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> it was daily or weekly or semi-</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">we</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ekly. But well, I guess, in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">old days,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> we took the Spokesman Review. I don’t think--there wasn't a local newspaper. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">h</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ere might've been a weekly. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">you're getting too far back in my brain.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah, do you know how your family found out about the war, that United States w</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">as going to war? Was it through </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the newspaper? Or sort of word of mouth?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, I think all the above. You know, neighbors were close and we did get th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e Spokesman Review. And I don't </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">know if it was a day late. I think it came down on the trai</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">n. So it could be the same day. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">At that time Pasco, its main industry was the train. A train town. And Richland was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">just a little farming community </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">along with White Bluffs and Hanford.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Right. And then was it in the spring of '43 that you first heard about that the g</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">overnment was coming in and was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">going to be taking people--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Yes, y</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">es. 1943.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But your family, you have sort of the rest of that growing season. Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, it must've been later in February or maybe first part of March that that h</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">appened. I suppose there's some </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">way I could find out. But I do know that the ones that lived in what we call downt</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">own Richland didn't get to stay </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and farm their crop. And we did.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah. I wonder if there's anything that we haven't talked about yet that you think wo</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">uld be important to talk about, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">something you know, about growing up in Richland, ab</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">out the community itself, about </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">farming?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, we had a great swimming pool, Columbia River. Also fishing. Never had a fan</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">cy fishing pole. But go down to </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the river and cut off a large willow, tie the line on the end of it. Works </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">good</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">What</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> sort of fish did you catch with that?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Probably mostly carp. Occasionally we'd get an edible fish.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> But we enjoyed doing it</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. Some real hot days, the whole </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">family would go to the river. Our firewood, you could put on what they call a boom ou</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t on the river. It'd be several </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">logs fastened together with chain or cable. And have </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">an anchor out on the upper end. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So it would catch all the wood that was coming down. And that's where we got th</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e firewood. And for the icebox, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">we'd go down and my dad would saw chunks of ice out of the river and we had a</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> sawdust bin that we would bury </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">the ice in there and it would last long ways into the summer. So things were a littl</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e bit crude back then. But none </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">of us died from it. We all made it.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Right. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">What about in the winter? You know, in terms of the river, the river ever freeze ove</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r? What sorts of things did you </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">do? Any things that you can say--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">All I can remember about that is that what I've been told. I think I was about two ye</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ars old when it froze over. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">they even drove cars across it. I don't think we had any bridges at that time. It wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s a ferry that would ferry cars across. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And it seems like the winters don't get as cold as they used to here. I don't know if it'</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s a cycle or what it is. But my </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">younger years, we could ice skate on the river, most all winters.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So that was something you did in the winter then</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> for fun</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, I don't remember doing a whole lot. But you know, the river is danger</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ous, and we knew it back then, i</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">f the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ice only goes out a sma</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ll ways. So my folks wouldn't--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I just know that my folks would</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">n't have let us go to the river </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">to ice skate if the ice wasn't thick enough.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And you mentioned a ferry. Where was the ferry landing?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Well, there was the ferry la</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nding down at what's Columbia Point</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> now. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d there was another one between </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Kennewick and Pasco. There was another one up at Hanford, one across. It would come and go as the need</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> was. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But I remember the first bridge across the Columbia was long enough ago that I can't really remember it.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. I want to ask you a little bit about your employment at Hanford. When did yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">u start working at Hanford? And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">how long did you work there? And what sort of work did you do there?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, I graduated high school in 1951. And of course, we were still farming the gr</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ound. I did take a job in wheat </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">harvest. And my brother stayed and did the chores that had to be done through the summer. And so my mother</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">paid him what I made, the same amount that I made. So it wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s like both of us having a job. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">After wheat harvest </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">was over in September of 1952--I think it was, yeah, 1952--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I w</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ant out and applied for work at </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Hanford. And I got a job in the power department, running the steam boilers and tur</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">bines and that's out there. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I worked there for 14 y</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ears. It was all under GE then. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I finished up in what was called the N Reactor. And that's when they built a st</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">eam power plant just across the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">fence from the N Reactor. And I applied for a job there with, at that time was t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">he Washington Public Power. Now </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">it's Energy Northwest. And I stayed there until '72 when I got the craz</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">y idea of being a farmer again. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And haven't really regretted it. You go from being carrying a dinner pail to being</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> a businessman in one sense. It </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">takes a l</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ot of money to farm these days. </span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man</span> 1: </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Sorry, one last time. It looks like battery.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man</span> 2: </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oh.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man</span> 1: </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Pretty low.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">You can prompt me on anything you want to.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">What's that?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">You can prompt me.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. I'm going to ask you just a little bit more about you working at Hanfor</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d. You mentioned working for GE </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and at the N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> and ask you where else at Hanford you worked?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">You asked me where I met my wife. I can give you a little more on that.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">There you go. And then I may ask you about I know President Kennedy had the official ceremony, right, in '63.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And I'll ask you if you were there.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I was still working for GE. And it was Thursday morning. I had to work a swing shift</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> that day. So I just stayed out </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">there.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So you mentioned working for GE for a number of years. And then you said you e</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nded up with you working at the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">N Reactor. I wonder before that, what other parts of the Hanford site you worked at?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, I started at the C Reactor in the power department. C. B and C were right </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">together. Actually it was the B </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">reactor. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Then I got drafted in the army. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And in D</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ecember I went in the service to--t</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">hey sent my back to Virginia for training. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nd when the training with over, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">took a troop ship to Korea. I spent two years in Korea. Part of the time I was f</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">irst service. War was still on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And then after my two-year stay I came home and they put me back on o</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ut there. At that time I'd been </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">communicating with my future wife</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. And my twin brother, h</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e had a bad ea</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r and they wouldn't accept him. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Ironically we was going with sisters. But they weren't twins. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">so they decided to get married. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">So they got a two-year head start on us when I came home. Well, my wife, Bever</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ly, and I got married. And been </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">married ever since.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> And how had</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> the two of you met? When did you meet?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We was in school together. And the same way with my brother and his wife.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And so how many years is that now?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Boy, you're--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER] I'm testing him</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Off camera speaker:</span> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">It'll be 60 next year.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> That's</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Wow, almost 60.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">It's getting awful close to 60.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah, wow. And so you mentioned you were in Korea for two years. And the war wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s still going on when you first </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">arrived?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes. Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And what sorts of--</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I went in and they put me in the medics. And I took my medic training down in C</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">amp Pickett, Virginia. And then </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">sent me to Korea. I was a medic.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And then one other thing I wanted to ask you about, during your time working at</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Hanford, President Kennedy was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">here in, I believe it was September of '63. August or September of '63 to dedicate the N reactor.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I was wondering if you were there at that time and if you have memories of that?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I was. I was there. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> witnessed his groundbreaking. H</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">e flew in in a helicopter and fl</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ew out in a helicopter. I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">probably went up to Moses Lake, where they parked the plane</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> And it was interesti</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ng that I happened to be on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">swing shift at that time. So when the ceremony was over I had to go over to the plant and start my shift.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Was there extra security that day? Or do you have any memories of a lot of people there?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Very much so. You know, that was just not long before he was assassinated. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nd there was a lot of security. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">There was three helicopters came in. And the doors opened on all three of them</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. They come to land, you didn't know which one he was on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But the first thing you seen was they pulled a machine gun up in the doorway.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> And they looked all directions </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">before they left anybody off. And there was a big crowd there. That was very interesting.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Mm-hm.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Were there any other events during your time when you worked at the Hanford site that sort of</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> stand out? Any </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">significant happenings or anything that sort of stands out in your memory?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> They formed a rescue</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> crew out there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> They outfitted an older bus. And I thin</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">k there was about three or four different crews, maybe five. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">We never did</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> get called to an event, like there's been several around the Unite</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d States since. But that's what </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">we were trained for. And I was on one of those crews because I'd been a medic i</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">n the army, was the reason they </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">put me on there. We had drills. But neve</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">r had to go to an actual event. </span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And obviously Hanford was a place where security was very important. Di</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">d you do have to have a special </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">clearance to work there? Or what do you remember about some security processes?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, yes. I had what they called a Q clearance, which was top clearance, wi</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">th everybody that was full time </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">employed. That the only ones that would get out there was if they had to have a </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">special person, something broke </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">down and had to go out there. And then he had to have an escort. And they told us</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> that you don't talk about what work it is on the job. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">But at that time, Hanford wasn't classified top secret anymore. After the bomb</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s were dropped on Hiroshima and </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Nagasaki, that's when they found out what Hanford was building.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Were you able to drive your own car out to the site where you were working? Or would you have to take a bus?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Oh, we had to take an expensive bus ride.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> They charged us a nickel each way. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nd nobody could afford to drive </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">their cars. If you did, </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">you</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> car pooled. But because the buses didn't have any air cond</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">itioning, just the windows. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">as long as </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I worked for GE I rode the bus. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">When I started working for Washington Public Power we car pooled. They didn't h</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ave an option. But they paid us </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">for travel time.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And how long did you work for Washington Public Power then?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Seven years.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Seven years. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">'65 to '72?</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> So anything else that I haven't asked you about, either ab</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">out growing up on the farm here </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">in Richland or about your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about or you thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">nk is important that we haven't </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">talked about yet?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Something serious?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> Oh, either way. No, it can</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> be funny.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, I remember when my twin brother and I was out and we had a watermel</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">on patch. And we thought it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">time to pick the watermelons. And we'd pick a </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">whole pile of them. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">My dad said, well, those aren't ripe yet. We'll have to feed those to the pigs. So the</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> pigs got watermelon early. But you know, we would--</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">that's some of our pastime would be walk</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> around the neighbors and such. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">There wasn't too many dull moments. Especially, my mother used to say that when </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">you have twins, well, one can't </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">think of the other kin. So I guess you can take from that what you want.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Yeah. If you had to sort of sum up for someone who wouldn't know much about the area, what it wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">s like growing </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">up in the small community at the time, growing up on a farm at the time, what would you tell them?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, that there wasn't many dull moments. I think there's an advantage that ki</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">ds today don't have. We grew up </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">having responsibility to know that there might be a little time for play. Bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t they're also work to be done. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I can remember going out in the fields of whole peppermint and my dad would</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> take two rows where my brother </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">and I, we'd take one apiece and pull the weeds out. And we'd fill up a gallon </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">jug of water. Had a burlap sack </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">wrapped around it and dipped it in water before we went out. And that would k</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">eep cool. That was our drinking water. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Had to come in in time for chores. We milked as many as five head of cows. But at the time my dad got </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">sick we </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">only had two milk cows. And a couple of </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">horses and several young stock. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">And then there was 4H and FFA. That was after we moved to Kennewick. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> can't remember much more about </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Richland, only being 12 years old and there's probably more. But I'll think about </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">it after our interview is over. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">I remember riding the bus was quite a treat. When we got the new buses in Richland i</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">t was, as I said, I think I was </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">in about the third grade. It was quite a treat. And they said there was heaters in them. But we coul</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">dn't tell when </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">winter come</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">. </span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> feel like it. </span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691">
<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">They weren't very efficient.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Well, thank you very much. This has been really interesting, very informative. I appr</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">eciate it. You’ve been great. </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Thanks very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX30075691">
<p class="Paragraph SCX30075691"><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kaas</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX30075691">Have you interviewed others?</span><span class="EOP SCX30075691"> </span></p>
</div>
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Gordon Kaas
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:02:57
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
232kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
N Reactor
B Reactor
C Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1915-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1952-1972
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kaas, Nelson
Kaas, George
Kaas, Edward
Chapman, Alice
Perry, Jay
Mitchell, Cameron
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gordon Kaas
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Gordon Kaas conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-06-8: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
White Bluffs (Wash.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/12/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
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B Reactor
C Reactor
Hunting
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
N Reactor
Pasco (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
swimming
White Bluffs (Wash.)
-
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690baf02cd982d16be454fa61515735b
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fada0dbf6496cc12da553f06e46e92b9e.mp4
59164a7708c88cbb1d22ef43bc311024
Dublin Core
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Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Laura Arata
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Edwin Cheyney
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Cheyney_Ed</strong></p>
<p>Laura Arata: Plus, if you make him mad, he's got a cane now he can smack you with.</p>
<p>Ed Cheyney: Well I got one I’m not doing with.</p>
<p>Arata: Nice.</p>
<p>Man: I guess it just--</p>
<p>Arata: That would be our first on camera cane dueling.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Right. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Man: Okay, whenever you're ready.</p>
<p>Arata: Okay, we’re ready to go. All right. So if we could start out by having you say your name, and then spell it for us?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Sure. My name is Edwin Cheyney. C-H-E-Y-N-E-Y. It's also been pronounced chee-nee, with the extra Y in it. I was corrected many years ago that you're pronouncing it wrong. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Really? So you learned about it, too?</p>
<p>Cheyney: I said, I didn't care, as long as it didn't get any worse.</p>
<p>Arata: Fair enough. My name's Laura Arata. Today is November 12, 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start off by just having you tell me a little bit about when you came to Hanford, and what that first experience of coming to Hanford was like, and why you initially came here.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Okay, well, first of all, at that time, I was going to Spokane Technical and Vocational School, which is now Spokane Community College. And basically, the only way you could get out of class time is to go interview. Well, I was on—it’s three and a half years, and so, I was on the, actually, the last few months of my course. And this guy says, hey, let's get a carpool going, and go down to Hanford. Well, where's that? And he says, well, they're looking for employees. I think it was 13 at that time, for a special program with General Electric. So we get down there, and the first thing, and we got here early, at seven o'clock promptly. We were all escorted back into a room that had separate booths, and we were given time tests from seven o'clock till 12 noon. We were tested on about every kind of conceivable test that I could imagine, but it all related to my field of electronics and instrumentation. So anyway, it was about two weeks later. The ones that were in the carpool with me said they already got their rejection notice. And my teacher--I wasn't one of his favorite ones--and he just says, came to me, and says, well, you'll get yours. And I said, well, I'm sure I will. A month later, I get a call from my grandmother. I was living in Spokane and taking care of two of her apartment houses. And she says, you've got a registered letter. So I went to my teacher, and I said, I need to take my grandmother to the bank. He said, I've never heard of that one before. [LAUGHTER] So he let me go, and I got there, and I had a registered letter from General Electric. I really got excited. And it says, offered me a job. And I went back to the school. I plopped it down to the teacher, and says, well, there, I got my letter. He says, so what? And just turned his head. So, well, that's fine. At least I got proof. And I went to my two other instructors from previous years. They stopped everything. He said, look it. He's the only one out of the whole school's that's been offered a job down in Hanford. I still didn't know what I was getting into. [LAUGHTER] But I figured it was worth it. And we had to agree to the fact to go to three and half years more to CBC to special programs that GE selected. And that was no problem either. And then we worked only an eight hour shift, except on weekends, we could work overtime if that case came up. So basically, that's how I got in the front door. And it's sort of interesting that when I first came down here, my mother wanted to make sure that I got in a decent environment because I'd never cooked or anything. And so, GE, they'd recommended the best place where most go is the Statler Hotel. Well, I thought, well, let's go there. Well, we went in there, and my mother, of course, with me. When she saw the three gals there wearing mini-skirts and the whole thing, she almost ripped my arm off, says this isn't the place for you. I didn't see any problem with it, but she immediately took me up to the parish house, and says, is there somewhere decent that I could live? And she introduced us to this woman that was very motherly, very heavy set, very good cook. And said she'd board and room me. Well, of course, I got out on the project. There was lots and lots of indoctrinations that this is classified work, and you're not to discuss anything whatsoever. And the home then I was staying in, her husband was one of the managers out at D Reactor. And so first thing, he asked me, he says, what do you do out there? I says, I just work out there. He says, I know you can't describe anything, but he says, you can at least say your title. You're not getting yourself in trouble with that. I says, well, are you sure? He says, I wouldn't put you on the spot. And I says, I'm an instrument and control technician. And so, he didn't push me any further. And the one thing, before I left the neighborhood of Spokane, the FBI was checking up on me. And I had neighbors say, what kind of trouble are you in anyway? And I says, what do you mean trouble? And they says, the FBI was out checking on you. And I go, that's great. He says, what's great about it? I says, I think they're interested in me. [LAUGHTER] So that's basically how I got in the front door. And I started in the 300 Area, basically the canning lines. And with GE, you were only in a spot roughly three months to six months, and they rotated you because they wanted you to get the full feel of the different expectations that they had of you, and the way you could handle your so-called position, as far as instrument control calibration of all kinds of instrumentation, which, to me, I found really exciting because it was a new challenge. There was never, seemed like there was never a day that it wasn't something different. And I like that. And the challenges were quite different. And riding that bus for a nickel a day. You couldn't afford to drive anywhere. The only thing is, those buses didn't have air conditioning or anything. And when it started, when they moved me to the K Reactor--first it was B, C Reactors. When you had 100 degree weather, it was no fun after a shift, getting on the bus about 4 o'clock. It's good and hot and everything. About all you could do is just sit there and bear it. I usually just closed my eyes, and just figured, well, I'll get home pretty quick. And I just figured, well, it's good for a common cause. Also at that time, the salary was real good for someone that was just out of a tech school. My dad had a master's degree, was teaching five solid subjects, and the superintendent of schools at Hogan, Montana. And the first year, because I was living with the landlady's, their home, she also made use of me, and took me to grocery stores to help her carry stuff. And she took me to Zale’s and talked me into buying a men's diamond ring, which that's the last thing in the world I was really interested in, but I got talked into it. Well, I go up to see my dad, and he sees that. And he says, is that real? And I says, of course, it's real. But I says, it was stupid that I bought it. And I took it off, and said, you can have it. And he said, well, what kind of money are you making? At that point in time, I had made a little over $2,500 more than he'd made. And that really changed his whole attitude about tech school because when I graduated from school, I had to be in his classes, and I took lots of insults. And when he asked me when I graduated, what are you going to do? I says, I'm not sure yet. And then, when I told him I was going to tech school, he says, you just will be a grease monkey. Well, that changed his whole attitude, that maybe--He says, I just can't see why and how they can pay you that kind of money. I says, Dad, they pay you for what you can do with your hands, too. And from then on, he had a whole different feel about it. So that's getting off of what I was doing in Hanford. But going to the different sites, like I said, the challenges were always different. And I think the thing that really impressed me the most is the feeling of the power and energy that was going on. And especially when I was given the tour to go, first, up to the water treatment plant. That was massive enough. I was told could easily take care of the whole city of Los Angeles. And they showed me a wet well, and in it was all these lights with no insulation or anything. And they're on. I says, how come they don't short out? He says, in pure water, there's no conduction. And the mass of water that was going down through the pumps, and through the reactor core itself, the ground just vibrated. I'd say it was at least a good two city blocks, if not longer. You just feel the rumbling. And it's just a massive power. And you go in the reactor area, you just hear all this rushed water. Another thing that was impressive, you look outdoors at this big million gallon tanks of boiling water coming right off the reactor. It could be 100 degrees outdoors, and it had a 200 foot plume at least. And it really made me think, especially in later years when you start realizing what all is going on. It was a graphite core reactor, the same kind of reactor that Chernobyl had. They were foolish in what they were doing. They weren't using nuclear engineers or physicists, and doing all kinds of dangerous experiments. But they reminded me that when I went in to watch, and a lot of times we referred to it, we're controlling a nuclear bomb. And when the operations, especially at operations, they start pulling rods, waiting for things to go critical, it got real exciting, real quiet. And they had two to three guys watching everything, all the instrumentation to see when things were starting to go critical. And it just really amazed me how smart they were, and how careful they were in their operations. And at the same token, it made you well aware that we're really controlling something really massive. And later, roughly, I'd say about every six months or so, they rotated you. They moved me to the K Reactors. Now those were the two world's largest producing plutonium reactors. And that was even more exciting. And of course, a whole lot bigger, and a whole lot more things going on. And eventually, I don't know if it was because of my interest, or my attitude or what, they gave me the opportunity to go into the irradiation testing group, which was a whole lot more involvement. And that was going into, I won't go into a whole lot of detail. They were putting, I'll say samples, into the core of the reactor during operation for different tests for Atomic International, NASA, and there was a few others. But they had a lot of instrumentation, monitoring, and analyzing what's going on. Of course, because being rotated around, actually, what happened then was I just became journeyman, and General Electric announced that they're phasing out. That was a real scary thing for the simple fact they were laying off thousands of people, not hundreds. And being that I was on their special training program, they had an agreement with the union, only take a certain percentage of us to lay off. And go off, like, they lay off 2,000 workers, they might take three or four of us. But when it got down to the last two weeks at General Electric, I was down into the last group. Now when they put me on that status, then they immediately transferred me out of the K Reactors down to the canning lines. And that's where they actually had, oh, what do I want to say, molten metal for sealing the canisters for the fuel for the reactor. And so, when you knew when you were down there that you were on your way out--Well, on Friday, the last Friday of the second week of GE, I got my lay-off notice. Well, this probably about does it, but I put in my name. I thought, well, I want to stay nuclear. I put in my name for the nuclear bomb testing down in Nevada. I immediately got results back. We'd like to hire you, and the only thing is, they're offering me basically the same salary, but I had to move myself. And I thought, well, to heck with that. The following Monday, so I got a notice on Friday, the following Monday, my supervisor comes to me, and he says, how would you like to work for Douglas United Nuclear? I says, I'd love to work for Douglas United Nuclear. He says, well, you'd be doing the same thing you're doing. And so, tear up your lay-off notice. So I stayed with Douglas United Nuclear. And not to go into a whole lot of details of the same thing, it wasn't long they announced shutting down more reactors. The handwriting was on the wall. You aren't going to be here very long. And so, I put my name in with Battelle Northwest, and I put my name with KEPR TV station, because at school I had earned a commercial FCC license, so I could go that way. I thought, all right. I'll get out of government. I'll go into this. Well, it was on a Thursday night. I got called by both Battelle and by KEPR. And I said, well, I wanted to—to Battelle, I told them I wanted to just check into this one job first. Well, it turned out real quick that that didn't have anywhere near what to offer that Battelle. So I went to Battelle. It was through Battelle, then, I got into a whole lot more avenues of the nuclear field. And they moved me everywhere where they felt that they wanted me or needed me. I worked--first, they were going to move me out in the areas, or that's what they promised me, and the first day on the job, they put me in the 300 Area again in the fabrications department. Well, Battelle's in everything. And the next thing, I was assigned on an engineer. He basically gave you a schematic, or a drawing, of what he wanted, and you had to from there, get everything you need, put it together, wire it up, test it, and turn it over to the engineer. Well, that was really exciting because it was a whole different challenge, including making your own printed circuit boards, which I'd never done. Basically, it's a photographic process, and I've always been interested in that. And so, it wasn't long—they wanted, the engineering department then wanted me, and moved me down to the sand castle. And of course though, when they have a contract that ends, so does the job. But in the meantime, they had the computer lab at the sand castle for the FFTF mock up. And I guess, my understanding was the first time they ever had analog digital computers working together to simulate FFTF. That went great until Governor Dixy Lee Ray came down and removed that job, that responsibility from Battelle. Well, I got moved out into the 300 Area again, and different labs, and HTLTR, PRTR, and all the different ones. But again, every one of them was exciting. Every one was a different challenge. Well, in the meantime, there's a gentleman that got hurt at home. And he worked out at the 200 Areas, and that was top secret work. And so that required having more checks on me. And then when you were approved, you had a blue tag on your badge. The only thing that I really feel comfortable disclosing was the fact that, again, it was really exciting. The big thing was that they assigned you to specific cells only. And no one had the same cells, and no one was-- basically, I was told because this way, you'll never try to put things together. You just do your job, and mind your own business. And that's fine with me. And then, as soon as this gentleman was able to come back to work, then I was put on with, they asked me if I'd like to work at the weather station. That's out at the 200 Areas also. That, I was to work on the telemetry stations. I thought that's really neat because it had weather stations at a 65 mile radius that I traveled every day, checking stations, and setting them up for monitoring radiation, temperature, wind speed, and et cetera. And the only thing is, it was a great adventure, watching, or being at the different areas. And that's when it came to my light, I didn't realize that during the time I was out in the 100 Areas, I don't know when because I never saw it, that they had Nike missile sites. And where that refreshed my memory is when I was out a K Areas one night, on graveyard shift, and I was with a gentleman. And we were outside, and we had just got through with, they had stack flow monitors to see what kind of effluents are going through, to make sure we're staying within limits. And he says, you know, it was really sort of funny. One night, he wouldn't say who, and I can see why, inflated a big air balloon, a weather balloon, and tied a flashlight to it, and set it up. Well, after it went up so far, next thing, a big—I think two military jets came flying over to see what the heck that was flying in the air. So some people had ways of—no one wanted to be identified on that one because they did have missile sites. I found that one out on my weather stations out at the Wahluke Slopes, but they pretty well destroyed everything. And I thought this was really, really, was pretty well covered and protected. Which thank God it was, but we weren't aware of that stuff. So it was full of excitement. And I never knew what I was going to be stuck with the next day. The only thing is, like with Battelle, and that's while I was doing the weather stations, I was watching--one of the sites I had was right out on the Hanford site, and it was right out there where they were starting up Whoops, and they were digging this massive, massive hole in the ground. And we had to set up a weather station there. And so I got really interested in that, and basically, I thought, you know, I've always wanted to see something like this being built from the ground up. So I put my name in there, and three months later I was hired in, and spent the last 27 and a half years there. But that's basically in a nutshell what I was involved with. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Sounds like you were involved in a lot of different jobs, and I wonder--you mentioned that you worked at B, C, and K Reactors. So I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about what maybe some of your different jobs there were. Whatever you're comfortable with.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Oh, sure. Well, especially in the B, C Reactor Areas, like I say, while I was going to school, you weren't allowed any overtime. But on weekends, you were. Another interesting thing when you're back home, if they wanted you, like, for a reactor goes down, they call you up, you say yes, they send a person out in a car. They pick you up, and take you out there, and they also bring you back home. Some of those jobs, I actually was out at the plant for two days at a time. But one of them, like in the B, C Reactor, especially now that we can go visit and everything, it brought back the recollection of the reactor had gone down, and they were doing repair of thermocouples. That's temperature measurement. And you had to go to the rear face of that reactor in a wetsuit, and, of course, PCs under that, and go in there, and go behind where those tubes are, pull out this little two conductor wire, and take and cut it, splice it, and basically bond it together, and then solder it there. And here you've got water's dripping from 100 feet up. You're trying to heat this thing up enough to make it bond. And then call the control. Now are they getting an indication? And then, of course, you'd have to re-insert it back down into the well it was in. That was one of the things I'll never forget because it was so dark back there and everything. You did not want to be claustrophobic. You could easily touch the back of the wall with your back, and you'd have the tubes in front of you. Of course, the interesting thing there is before anyone ever goes in there after a shutdown, they discharge all those tubes down into 15 feet of water, and you see all this blue going down there below you. That never bothered me either, other than thank God, it's down 15 feet under water. Well, in the K Reactors--the B Reactor, I just had a lot of general routines of, like in the powerhouse, there's all kinds of instrumentation for controlling those big boilers. Of course, that was coal fired. And the water treatment facilities, measuring the pH of the water, and the chemistry that goes into it. And then K Reactors, I got to go in. Now they were putting in the high speed scanning system for measuring temperature. And instead of using thermocouples, they used RTDs. And they were going into, I think it was about the second year I was at K Reactors, that again, they shut down to replace all those. Well, again, I get called, I come out there. It's at midnight. I'm well over 100 feet up in the air running these thermal bulbs down through in between the tubes while there's another guy riding the elevator down to the point of what tube it was to be installed into. And it was sort of relaxing up there. It was interesting, but it just seemed like forever. Another incident—of course, as soon as you finish your college requirements that they put on, I was immediately put on D shift. And it just--I didn't like shift because it was one day a week, swings, days, and graveyards on a continuous cycle. I was with the technician this one day. We were up in full operation at this point in time, but they were wanting to check—they were having problems. And so, he and I were assigned to go into the control room. They had—I won't give the exact number; I'll say there was well over 3,000 pressure gauges called panel gauges. They're monitoring the pressure of the water of the tube itself, and that's 3,000 plus. And this panel, you're in the control room, you hear all this click, click, click, click. And they're all moving. If anything, if any one of them goes over pressure or under pressure, immediately, it dumps that whole complete plant. Everything comes through a massive—you hear lots of equipment slamming shut, and the control rods drop. Well, anyway, I guess I was still considered a trainee at that time. We had to change out one of those little pressure gauges. Behind the panel, it's all full of tubing and wiring. They're all in series with each other, so that means if any one's interrupted, it dumps everything. So to get around that, to replace a gauge, you had to take, you had jumpers. So you put a jumper, and you jumper off that gauge. And then when you're all ready to try to dismantle, and pull it out and put another one, you pull the jumpers out of it. Well, the gentleman that was taking me through this, showing me and telling me how careful, as soon as he pulled the one jumper, boom. The plant went down. [LAUGHTER] Oh no. I don't know what color I turned, but I know that he says, oh no. He went out, he says, we did it, we did it. They says, hold on. They had to check it. And it turned out it was something else, but it happened at the same time that we pulled that jumper. So there was times that it made you plenty nervous because you don't make anyone happy if you dump the plant. You don't get fired, but the embarrassment of it—you try to take a lot more pride in it than that. And so, that's basically, sort of in a nutshell the B, C Reactors. It's really interesting to go out there and look at it now. I certainly encourage anyone that has the opportunity. It brings back a lot of memories. The biggest thing I remember is you go in the control room there, the first one that they let off. You go in the control room there, it looks like a little dinky space. It didn't seem that dinky to me then. But if you go into the K Reactors, it looks like a gymnasium compared to that, as far as the size of the control room and the equipment that was there. So a lot to compare it with, but the things that just always impressed me was you could feel from the tremor of the grounds and everything, that there was massive power. And it had to be to generate that much heat, and have that much steam coming out of those millions of gallons—I don't know exactly what. The only thing that disturbed me, and I questioned it at the time, riding the bus, going past the 200 East Area, a lot of times, the winds would bring down that brownish plume. And it'd come right in the bus, and your nose would burn. And I'd say, isn't that bad for you? Why is it on a big stack, and it's coming down here? Oh, nothing to worry about. Well, thank God, I don't think I ever got anything from it. There was a lot of things that went on that you could question, but you probably wouldn't get much for an answer. In fact, when I—I get bounced around on things—when I was doing the weather system for them, in the winter time, we were given snowmobiles because we did Rattlesnake Mountain, and the whole bit. And so they had their own trailer with the snowmobiles. Well, I had to go into the Two West Area, and immediately, this one guard, he must have been new. He says, pull over there, and don't go anywhere. Well, this is new. And he comes up, he says, sir, I hate to tell you this, but you can't be bringing your recreational vehicles in here. I said, sir, would you mind reading what's on those snowmobiles, and read what's on the trailer? It says property of the Atomic Energy Commission. He looks at it. He thought it was crazy. He says, well, I'm sorry. [LAUGHTER] So you're all the time being tested. But in general, I always considered it probably one of the greatest experiences. I'm really thankful to the good Lord that I worked 44 and a half years. I'm not trying to brag, but I was never unemployed. They kept me plenty busy.</p>
<p>Arata: It sounds like it. It sounds like you had many different jobs.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, with instrumentation and monitoring everything under the sun, temperature, pressure, level, et cetera. Even one, that reminded me—not to go on and on and on—but in the 300 Area, while I was down there, they sent me to the so-called bursting facilities. And I thought, now what the heck's that? Well, we'll find out. And I go there, and they had these different cells, and they had high pressure systems. And they take different materials of piping, and they hook up all these apparatuses on both ends. And they put it in a cell, and put on all kinds of monitoring equipment to test pressure, temperature, et cetera. And what they do, when they get ready to test, you get out of there, you go back in the control room, and they run up until that pipe virtually breaks open. And again, for studies. But they had a lot of studies going on before they ever used a lot of material. So it was, like I say, always exciting. I enjoyed it, but you never knew what you were going to be assigned with. And it seemed like they didn't mind sending me around.</p>
<p>Arata: Sounds like it. I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit about starting in the '60s, and then having this great 44-year career unhampered. Certainly, the technology changed a great deal in that time. Could you talk a little bit about what sorts of technology changes you encountered working there?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, sure. It's sort of interesting. When they first put me out in the 300 Area, of course, I was assigned with different technicians almost every day. And anyway, this one technician—and you've could sense when right off the bat, well, you're a fresh one from out of school, so you probably don't know much or anything. And I was given this elderly gentleman, and he takes me to his own little shop area he had. As a matter of fact, it happened to be where the bursting facilities was, and he says, what do you know about recorders? I says, well, I was thinking of electronic recorders, a magnetic tape type recorder. I says, well, if you're talking about magnetic tape recorders, I says, I think I know quite a bit about them. What do you got? He says, well, what do you know about recorders? What do you know about L&N recorder? And I says, not a thing! Can you show me what you're talking about? He brings out this great, big, heavy, old chunk of iron. It's an L&N recorder. It has a galvanometer movement in it. I knew what that was. But I thought, what do you with that piece of junk? I'd use it for a boat anchor. [LAUGHTER] But I didn't say that because I knew it would disrupt him a lot. He says, do you know how to calibrate—or wind your own resistors for the bridge that it requires for it? I says, no. You give me a formula, and I'll work it out. He said, great. So he gives me what values he wanted. Okay. So then he hands me this spool and this wire. He says, all right, make your own resistor. I said, what is this? [LAUGHTER] He says, you've got to make your own resistor. So I kept going down on wire until I got exactly the resistance, cut it off, then I had to treat it and the whole thing. I just followed along with him. And I make these several spools of resistors, and put it in. And then he had me taking, apply a signal to see where the galvanometer would move, and the whole thing. I thought, now just how antiquated can this get? [LAUGHTER] He didn't like it too well or anything, but I thought, I could learn something from everybody. And it was really interesting because as I got out into the K Reactors, well, now they had all, at this time--that time--they had vacuum tube amplifiers. And yes, they had their own bridge circuits and stuff, but you didn't go winding your own resistors or anything. In fact, it all came from the factory pre-certified and et cetera. And so, I saw a big change there in the counting type equipment, and the measuring of temperature. Things changed tremendously. Now in the pneumatic end, that's air-driven instruments, which I never really was fond of. I liked electronics. It was a lot faster. Air-driven, even though that is very accurate for monitoring pressure, and the whole thing, is very slow. You make a move. You wait. Electronics, it's right there. And that was a big change I've seen. And of course, as they got—especially like that K Reactor—so much more massive and everything, they had to be a lot more sophisticated. And so, I could see one heck of a change. And poor old B Reactor was about as old-fashioned as you could get. But it amazes me how they handled the whole thing from the ground up, and we didn't have any major catastrophe. They did have at K Reactors—and I didn't realize the possible danger I was in—they did have where the core did catch on fire. And at least with the monitoring equipment they had, it was where they could respond fast enough to start changing control rods. But it took them a while to get that out. But at least it wasn't like Chernobyl. Chernobyl, they had no chance. In fact, we had videos of--and I'm jumping clear into--where we were shown videos. The fact that when they cut off all the safety systems, they apparently had no knowledge of how fast, when a chain reaction starts, how fast could it be when it goes critical. Because it totally blew everything up, and that's with a graphite core. And unfortunately, people think that, like Energy Northwest out there, that has water as a moderator. There's no graphite whatsoever, a whole different thing. And graphite does burn. And the sad thing is, understand, I've heard that there wasn't a single person that was around Chernobyl that was trying to save the area that is alive today. At least, thank God, we do have a lot more safety concerns. But I don't know if I've totally answered what you're looking for, between the difference, but it was a massive difference. Of course, then when I went over to Energy Northwest, the equipment, as far as recorders, they didn't even have vacuum tubes. Everything's solid state. Pretty much, the current state of the art, or even making changes to be more current, to the more current methods. So it always gave you a different challenge. But I like the changes. And I learned real quick. No matter who, you learn from everyone. And I know my first supervisor, he was sort of like a dad, and he'd, after about two weeks there, he called me in. And he says, I see that you were really raised strict. I says, why do you say that? He says, you don't let anyone disturb you, but you don't come back with any smart aleck remarks. I says, everyone's got something to offer, good or bad. I says, I'm not here for that. I'm here to learn, and I'm here to carry out what you want me to carry out. It was always exciting. And I have no regrets. In fact, most thought that I would never even quit. I quit when I was 66. I figured, well, maybe I should take time out to enjoy life. And I'm glad that I did. I don't miss it. I never tried to think about retirement, or play it into my mind until, I think it was about--well, the last day, I even went out, worked regular assignments until the last four hours. And then, finally, my boss says, well, come on in. There's no use to go any further. And I thought, well, now I can lay everything down, and walk out that gate, and I won't feel like I'm in a pen. [LAUGHTER] It was a great experience.</p>
<p>Arata: It sounds like it. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the K Reactor shut down. And I understand there was some talk of maybe starting it back up, and that ultimately didn't happen. Since you worked there--</p>
<p>Cheyney: Right. Well, I heard mostly about that, of course, when I was away from there. And I thought, it was really, really a disappointment. It was really sad. In fact, I think it was pretty much getting into that process when I was down at Battelle. And they were doing some tests out there, and I got to go with an engineer. He wanted me to go out there and help with some equipment. And going in there, everything's stone cold. Everything's stone quiet. Such a massive structure doing absolutely nothing. I thought, what a waste. And what are they going to do? Like I said, I didn't hear a whole lot about it, but it came and really hit home when I went in there, and they're worried about rodents and everything else. That isn't the reactor that I saw. And the excitement that was behind it has just, all is dead. And going back through some of the corridors, and into one of the areas they were experimenting with, just hardly could see around. They had some test equipment. I didn't question exactly what are they monitoring. I'm sure a lot they're looking for, is there any possible contamination concerns or anything? But speaking of contamination concerns, it's just like when any of those reactors had what they call a rupture. That's where a fuel element breaks open, and the material’s going out into that water stream. And what they do is they immediately divert it to, they had a big open area, a pit area where all that high contaminated water went into. And guess what's out there in the winter time? Ducks are swimming in that hot water. And I thought, I wouldn't eat anything around here. [LAUGHTER] But I think there's quite a bit that substantiates all that. In fact, Battelle's doing a lot of research in animals and stuff, and even the materials that they've, the feces material and everything is, like, up in the 5R range, which you wouldn't even want to be near that. And I thought, they've got a lot to learn out there of studying the habitat around there, but I wouldn't want to eat anything. [LAUGHTER] Again, I'm off on another subject. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: That's okay. So overall, I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about any aspects of your work that you found the most challenging, and sort of the most rewarding. Or just overall, how Hanford was as a place to work during the time you were there.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, during the time I was there, as far as—I was really impressed with General Electric. They always gave me a feeling of a positive attitude. Also, a very strong feeling that you don't talk about your exact work because it's for the security of the country. And at the same token, I think where it became more rewarding and more relaxing to me is actually when I went to work out at, at that time, Whoops. And at that time, seeing all of the things that go into making a plant, you learn to respect things different. When I went to terminate from Battelle, they says, why in the heck do you want to go there? They're never going to ever operate. I says, well, I'm young enough yet. I want to see what I can learn out of it, and if it don't work--They says, if it don't work, come back here, we'll give you a job. I thought, I bet you will. [LAUGHTER] But I think maybe they were sincere, but I found it really rewarding there. I got involved with--and I never dreamt that I would—is working with robots, going into highly radioactive zones to do monitoring, and to observe what's going on, like steam leaks or anything. So you're not putting anyone in any danger. Out of that, I was surprised, I got an award from, I can't think of the name right now, from the company that was behind it. It was back east, and they sent a plaque awarding me that I contributed to something that basically made things safer, that didn't expose man to. And yet, I found it really exciting because I've always been excited about cameras, and this was working with cameras and with remote control of a little robot. And I made quite a few improvements, and so, I considered maybe that was one of the highlights. It was rewarding. I wasn't expecting anything. I just enjoyed that they let me go on it. And I also worked—I wore two hats in the last years at Energy Northwest, in that I volunteered because they couldn't get anyone else that would go there to write procedures. There was five originally that volunteered, and we all five took on the challenge. And inside of a couple months, it was down to two of us. It ended up, it was down—it was basically myself. And the main reason is, is because you're writing the instructions for that technician to go out and perform a function. If that causes anything like dump the plant, or any kind of danger, you go before the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and you may be serving time. Well, to protect myself, I always went before engineering, and discussed, and made them put their name on the dotted line with me that, yes, this is right. This is the only way to go about it, or the best way to go about it. And it was rewarding to me from the standpoint that if they needed an extra hand, they'd pull me right off of that, and I was back out on the plant. So I got away from it, just continuing. Like I say, the challenges seemed to never end. And I really, for a while, thought, I don't know, maybe I won't quit. They always teased me that I would be there when they shut the lights out. Well, I'm glad I didn't because getting away from it, as I get older, different medical issues. But I'm still blessed with the fact that I can get around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Mm-hm. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, that we haven't had a chance to hear you talk about that you'd like to share? Any other humorous incidents? Or just anything that stands out in your mind from that time?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, it wasn't a humorous incident, but one thing that GE pointed out, well, I guess it was an incident as far as, and of course, it was to teach everybody a lesson, is this one gentleman saw this real neat tool in his eyes. So he decided he'd take it home with him. It turns out it was a contaminated piece of equipment. And so, when they detected that it was missing, all they had to do was they got out their radiation monitors. They had an approximate idea. They could go right to his doorstep. And they went in, and they cut out chunks out of his carpet. Everywhere he'd been in his house, they were cutting out samples. And so I think it was a lesson well learnt. Keep your hands off of it. [LAUGHTER] In a way, I thought it was sort of funny. It's not really funny, though. But taking that kind of, obviously, carelessness, at least it really hit home. It isn't worth it.</p>
<p>Arata: All right. So I wanted to ask you, for general purposes, most of my students were born after the Cold War. They don't remember this time. So what would you like, sort of, that generation or future generations to know about working in Hanford, as this very important aspect of America's place in the Cold War, and winning the Cold War?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, I think the main thing is, the big thing is, I'm just trying to figure out how to put it. You shouldn't be afraid of nuclear. If you really know all the facts behind it, and all of the precautions behind it, it is one heck of a rewarding career. And it is something that I think I'm probably a whole lot healthier, and a whole lot that I know that have never had anything to do with nuclear, and yet, my whole life, basically, has been out there. And it definitely is rewarding in regards to the financial side. Well, I can relate it to my older son, when he was graduating, I says, well, what are you going to do? Because I'd never heard him discuss anything. He says, I'm going to be an instrument tech. I said, where'd you get that idea? [LAUGHTER] And he says, well, I want to do what you did, and I want to make the money you've made. And he went to Perry Tech, and he did real well. And I even, through my supervision, of course, was instrumental, and got him on a few outages out here. But he went on down to the only place where you got a permanent job. But again, instrumentation, the same, similar type of equipment for different purposes down at SCH, where it was making silicon wafers for all these integrated circuits. All the latest technology, it's a Japanese firm. They're very stern, very strict. Well, he had the most seniority and everything there, I think it was 12 and a half years. When it came to lay off and cutbacks, because they're very competitive, he was one of the first ones to let go. Now to try to find work, well, he's been able to get on to outages all throughout the country. So, even though he's had nothing there, right now he's in Raleigh, North Carolina. A month ago, he was down in Florida. And he's getting to see country that I haven't seen, and there's a lot of adventures yet, but he's still dealing with nuclear. It’s definitely, it's nothing to be afraid of; it's something to respect. And I'd say it definitely has a lot of opportunity if a person really wants to make the good money. I know, like I say, it's what you can do with your hands. Of course, you have to use your head too, but there's opportunity that you can really do well.</p>
<p>Arata: I want to thank you very much for coming in, and sharing your memories with us. We really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, I hope I've contributed something that's--I enjoy talking about what I can talk about it. It's left me with memories I'll never forget. And I thank you for the opportunity.</p>
<p>Arata: Well, we are very happy to have you. I love your description of standing behind B Reactor, and looking down in those kind of cool, glowing--</p>
Location
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Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
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00:50:00
Bit Rate/Frequency
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203 kbps
Hanford Sites
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D Reactor
K Reactor
300 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
200 Area
100 Area
Names Mentioned
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Ray, Dixie Lee
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Title
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Interview with Edwin Cheyney
Description
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An interview with Edwin Cheyney conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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2013-11-12
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
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Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
D Reactor
FBI
General Electric
K Reactor
Secrecy
WOOPS (Washington Public Power Supply System)