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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Edward Milliman
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: I’m ready here.</p>
<p>Tom Hungate: We’re ready.</p>
<p>Franklin: We’re ready, okay. My name is Robert Franklin and I am conducting an oral history with Edward Milliman on July 6<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Edward Milliman about his experiences working at the Hanford site and living in Richland. So I guess the first place to start is the beginning. So why don’t you tell me how you came to Hanford and to Richland?</p>
<p>Edward Milliman: From 1960 until ’67, I worked for General Electric and Douglas United Nuclear. I got laid off in ’67, so then I went to Montana, Bozeman area. Ran a couple of ranches there for a couple years. Went up to Cut Bank, Montana. In fact, it was winter for Montana. And 40 below there in the winter was nothing. The only way you could get to town, which was 20 miles away—they would start their D8 Cat up with the blade on it, and blade through all the way to town. And town was a grocery store and a tavern. Some of them old cowboys there, they’d get snowed in all winter. <br /><br />When spring thaw come, they and their hired help would all come into town and come into the saloon there, the bar. And I noticed every time I would go in there, one fellow was always there. If you left late at night, he was still there. And I asked the bartender, which was from Longview, Washington. He said, no, we just lock him in. He just stays here, and if he drinks anything through the night, the money’s always to the side there. And those old cowboys would come in, and they would get all drunked up. <br /><br />That one guy would say—and the bartender told me—see them two old fellas? And they must have been 70, 75. He said, stay away from them, just leave them alone. No matter what happens, leave them alone. Don’t say anything. Pretty soon their voices started getting loud, and I started paying them some attention. He said, that was not your calf. That was my calf that crawled through the fence and I just pulled him back. You’re a liar! And them two old fellas jumped up and went to knocking each other around and down on the floor. And they weren’t kidding. They were really hitting knuckles to each other. And pretty soon, the bartender took a bar towel, a wet bar towel on them. They got up, and sat there and sopped the blood up on their nose and their lips. They sat there, having a drink, and they started laughing. The bartender said, you know, neither one of them’s ever had a cow or a calf in their life. They’re wheat farmers. And he said, they’re just so glad to see each other, they beat the devil out of each other every year. [LAUGHTER] And he said this happens every spring. <br /><br />And pretty soon, he said, now just sit still, man. It ain’t over yet. I said, my goodness. So pretty soon, he said, you hit me harder than I hit you. No, I didn’t. Smack, bang, down they went again. [LAUGHTER] And that finally ended it. Anyway, just some of the funny things that happened to me. Then I came back and put an application in for Battelle.</p>
<p>Franklin: In what—</p>
<p>Milliman: 1970. They hired me on January the 5<sup>th</sup>, 1970. I was working for a doctor, Dr. Alfred P. Wehner, which happened to be during the war a fighter pilot for the Germans. He joined the Luftwaffe, the Hitler Youth. His father was SS. He’s also written a book, <em>From Hitler Youth to United States Citizen</em>, which I probably have the second autographed copy. <br /><br />But we were doing all kind of bioassays and lifespan studies using—mainly then it was hamsters, Syrian golden hamsters. We were making them—we would put them in these exposure chambers. They were introduced to nickel oxide in this one particular chamber. The next chamber would be cobalt oxide. And then also we went on to introduce cigarette smoke to them. You’d put them in a tube and plug them into a Hamburg-2 smoking machine which had 30 cigarettes on this turn. And the machine would take a puff off each cigarette and blow it in the chamber. They had no choice but to inhale it. And asbestos exposure. And at that time, all we had on was a lab coat and a little white paper face mask. [LAUGHTER] At that time, they didn’t know the dangers—really bad dangers of asbestos. <br /><br />Then in 1974, Johnson and Johnson talcum powder exposure. That lasted for two years. In the meantime, all the employees out at 100 F, where we were located, they moved into the new Life Science Laboratory here in 3000 Area. But we couldn’t leave, because we had animals on exposure. Weren’t allowed to move them. So I was out there at 100 F until 1975, ’76. <br /><br />And then I moved into town. I think it was ’77, we went out on a two-year asbestos concrete exposure. Of course, by then, they had us pretty well suited up in fresh air and respirators and all this stuff. Then I moved over—that was over at the annex. Then I moved into the Life Science Laboratory, which we used to say, we’re stuck one story down in the ground in a rat-infested hole. Which—all we had was rats and mice down there. <br /><br />They had four macaque monkeys, and they were doing dental implants on them. We had this one comrade down there that—he was kind of a strange fellow. He would go into the monkey room, the macaques’. They had them in—there was four: it was three males and one female. If you’re mean to an animal, there’s no second chance or anything. If they catch you mistreating an animal, you’re out the door right now. They’ll escort you out and you’re finished. Well, when you went in the monkey room, these macaques—they’re only set up, oh, about two, three foot. When you’d come into the room, they would hang onto the bars on their cage. And Dan would come up and smash their fingers and tell them to get back, get back. They tell you, don’t let them get ahold of you, they’ll pull your arm right out of the socket, they’re that strong. And I’ve seen them get ahold of a chain and pull a half inch eyebolt right out of the concrete. They’d put their feet against the wall, and—anyway. This one male macaque which was the dominant one there, he would turn around real fast when Dan would come in and throw his posterior up in the air, which in monkey language, that’s insult, that’s a challenge, come on. Anyway, Dan kept doing that, and being mean to him, and kicking the cage, and making him get back. Always had a safety man looking through the glass at you, all the time when you’d go in there. <br /><br />Dan was washing the floor out, and he got too close. And he dropped the hose, and he took a step forward to pick the hose up. That macaque reached out and got him by the front of the coveralls and pulled him up against the cage, and drew his fist back like a human, and he Dan so hard—[LAUGHTER]—through the bars of that cage, he knocked him out. And the safety man run in, and all the rest of the macaques were all standing up looking, hey, what you doing? And they pulled Dan out and took him to first aid. Dan come back, he had most beautiful black eye I’ve ever seen in my life. And his nose was kind of pushed over to the side a little bit from the swelling. Our supervisor called Dan in and said, you must be careful. Don’t let them get ahold of you. Okay. <br /><br />Well, about two weeks later, Dan was in there. It was his turn to go in. He was in there washing the floor out, and feeding them. [LAUGHTER] He got too close. That monkey reached out and got Dan by the head of the hair and chun-kinged him into the bars and knocked him out again. Well, the safety man, he says, I run in and pulled Dan back out and took him to first aid. And now Dan come back, now he’s got this black eye that’s starting to turn green, because it’s healing up. And now he’s all bandaged up around his head. He got stitches in his head. The boss called him in again. Dan, you got to be careful. Stay away from them things. Okay. <br /><br />About two weeks later, Dan went in there, and to check their water, you had about a six-foot galvanized pipe. And it was crossbar—across the upright bars on the thing, and then there was a divider there. You’d go in, you’d take that pipe, and you’d stick it against the water nipple to make sure that they were getting water. This little female macaque, she would grab the pipe and poke it on there and shake her head, yes, it’s okay. That’s how smart they were. <br /><br />Well, Dan got to that big old male monkey—macaque—and he stuck the pipe in there. And the safety man told us later, he said, I knew exactly what was going to happen. Because you could sit there and see in that macaque, he’d kind of sit there and think about that, watching Dan put that pipe through there on the other cages. He grabbed the pipe, pulled it out of Dan’s hand, chugged him in the belly and folded Dan over, put the pipe over the crossbar there, and romped down on the end of it. Hit old Dan under the chin and knocked him out again. And the safety man, he said, I was laughing so hard, I couldn’t—I had to crawl in on my hands and knees and pull Dan out of there. Here comes Dan back, he’s still got bandage on his head, he’s still got a black eye, and now he’s got stitches in his chin. [LAUGHTER] And the boss called Dan in, and said, Dan, I’m going to have to pull you out. Them monkeys are killing you. [LAUGHTER] That’s just some of the humorous things that’s happened there. I guess it wasn’t humorous to Dan, but—and we all kidded Dan so bad, he left. He finally retired. [LAUGHTER] <br /><br />And then we got—after the asbestos concrete exposure and went to LSL-2 down the basement, then they got a lot of contracts from the NCI and a lot of organizations. There were probably eight or ten exposure rooms in that basement. They designed these special chambers for our inhalation studies. Dr. Owen Moss designed the chambers. And I designed a device to generate particulate matter, which I have a patent on. There were four control rooms that controlled those eight or ten rooms. They were using my device to generate indium phosphide. It was a component they use in computers and chips and things like that. Opening day, two-year contract, about $25 million. And me and this other employee, we were their technicians. They had finally computerized the readouts on all these chambers, and they had 1,200 rats in all these different chambers. This chamber got 10 micrograms per liter, this chamber got 20, 30, and on down the line. There were 1,200 rats in all these different chambers. They were generating this delivery system. <br /><br />I was 200 feet away from where this stuff was being delivered to the animals. I’m sitting in the control room all comfortable. Started that thing up, and started generating that indium phosphide. I was looking at the computer, checking the different levels in the chambers. You had ten minutes before T-90 to get up to 100% of the target. The other fella asked me, how’s it doing? I’m tweedling knobs and regulating air flows and stuff, and I’m watching the computer. And one of the last readings I seen was that it was 65% of the target. <br /><br />And it exploded. And it blew me and him out the door. I’m glad the door wasn’t latched—it was closed, but didn’t lock. Blew us into the hallway. The indium phosphide and the smoke come rolling out of the ceiling. We slammed the door shut, grabbed some tape and sealed the door. All the other technicians down the room in the control room, they stuck their heads out and hollered and hit the panic button, which was one button on all these control rooms. When you hit the panic button, it shut everything down that they were exposing. They broke the barrier and went out through the sterile, which costs a lot of money to clean up, because that was all a sterile area. They couldn’t come my way, because the fumes and the dust. Look in there, and it was the most beautiful violet flame. That stuff was burning. And I’m sitting here looking at it. [LAUGHTER] <br /><br />Buddy, he got his fresh air on and everything, running for the fire extinguisher and put the fire out and we sealed the door again. And then they called the fire department and they evacuated the whole building. Nobody asked us if we were okay. They would just walk up and say, what did you do? [LAUGHTER] It just blew up! Anyway, the PR people got ahold of us right away—public relations people. They said, you will not say anything—an explosion, or the dang thing blew up. [LAUGHTER] Okay, but it did. You can’t say that. It killed all 1,200 of those rats from the concussion.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Milliman: And it went and blew out—went through the heap of filters, went through the scrubbers, and out into the air. Which they kind of glossed over. When I read it in the paper, anyway, it was—it said two scientists had previously been in the room. No one was there when it—the incident—happened, is the way they put it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. So, I guess rolling back a little bit—no, I guess we’ll keep going, then we’ll roll back. So, what year did that happen, the incident? This incident, with the—what did you call it, the indium?</p>
<p>Milliman: Indium phosphide.</p>
<p>Franklin: Indium phosphide.</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah. Gosh, that must have been late ‘80s or early ‘90s. Because I retired in 1996.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you had worked for Battelle from 1970 to 1996?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Milliman: Yes. Worked for the same doctor, same scientist. Until very later on the started having some heart trouble and he retired. But we’re still good friends, we stay in contact. Many, many—I think the worst exposure I was ever on was CS2. It was a teargas with a disabler in it. We got the contract from the Army. Even though you had protective gear on and fresh air, you would take your outside protection off, and you had a pair of coveralls on underneath. If you’d walk out into the hallway, everybody would shun you like you had the plague, because that stuff just stuck with you. One time, some got into my fresh air mask somehow. I plugged the area, and it gave me a full shot in the face. Down I went. Safety man pulled me out and went and got a wet towel. They had a compound that kind of nullified that stuff. It was Triton X-100. He soaked that towel in that Triton X, and I got it on my face. Of course, you don’t even know where you’re at. The disabler is like a bad dream. It just—your hand will fly up and slap you in your own face, and you got no control over anything. It only lasts for a little while, but it’s very effective, I can tell you. [LAUGHTER] It—gosh, it just burns your eyes, you can’t breathe, your throat constricts, and you’re disoriented.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you know when this was? Do you remember when this was?</p>
<p>Milliman: That must have been in the ‘80s, too. Probably the late ‘80s. We had so many chemical exposures going on, just one after another. These were all lifespan studies. And they figure a rat lives—a rat or mouse—can live a couple of years. Their lifespan is two years at the max. I have a stack of papers eight inches high of all the disclosure of what we were getting exposed to, and we had to sign we were aware of what the exposure would do. There were so many chemicals, like 1,3-butadiene and propylene. And next time you open a bag of Lay’s potato chips or any kind of a—the bags are all puffy and look like they’re plump full—I mean—full. [LAUGHTER] Ha, the last thing they shoot into that plastic bag before they seal it up is propylene, a preservative. And all these contracts that we received were to see if they were—they were all potential carcinogens, and we were testing the effects of them to see if they were carcinogen. That was the main thing that I did for 26, 27 years on all these inhalation exposures. Franklin: So, can you tell me about propylene? Is it a carcinogen?</p>
<p>Milliman: I didn’t get to read the report on that. They would mostly debrief us after the exposure was over. And of course they’d write a scientific article about it. I’m not sure whether it was or not—it probably was because—gosh, methyl methacrylate, a lot of things they use in the carpets, 1,3-butadiene, propylene oxide, methyl methacrylate, and—it just goes on and on and on. Everything that’s in this room—potential carcinogen. A lot of the glues they put into the carpets and the dyes and stuff. A lot of the household cleaners—the chemicals and stuff they put in them—they’re—everything you do is bad. Everything you buy is bad. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: So let’s roll it back a little bit. Where actually—where were you born?</p>
<p>Milliman: I was born in Washtucna, Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, that’s right. And what year was that?</p>
<p>Milliman: 1938.</p>
<p>Franklin: 1938.</p>
<p>Milliman, November 15, 1938.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long—did you grow up in Washtucna?</p>
<p>Milliman: I don’t even remember being there. Then my parents moved from there to Spokane, out in Moran Prairie.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Milliman: My father was a farmer and he was also a steam engineer. We left Spokane—he had a small farm there—we left Spokane in 1947 and moved to Benton City. And he had a farm there. He worked for the Benton County road department. Then, before that, they had—the old prison camp out at Horn Rapids. Him being a steam engineer, he hired onto the Morrison-Knudsen construction company and he fired the boilers for the whole complex out there at the old prison place. Which, there was no prisoners there, but they’d converted it into almost like a small community for the construction workers. They had all the barracks and the hutments and—just like a small town there for a while. It’s all gone now, but—</p>
<p>Franklin: Those were construction workers at Hanford?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah, and they—</p>
<p>Franklin: In the late ‘40s, early ‘50s?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah, this was in the ‘50s. Most of them were working building railroads up—and construction work.</p>
<p>Franklin: So then you went to school—so you said ’47, you moved to Benton City?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah, I started third grade in Benton City. Then I graduated in 1956.</p>
<p>Franklin: Then what did you do after you graduated?</p>
<p>Milliman: Went up to work—went up to Seattle and hired on for Boeing at the Renton plant. We were making—we were working on the KC-135 tankers. They had me working the plumbing bays, tying down the bladders and the pumps and everything for the KC-135s. Then one day, after I was there about two months, the boss called and said come with me. Okay. So he took me over and he said, now you’re an electrician. [LAUGHTER] So went to school for that, and we wired up the tankers from the nose back to where they joined the wings on. And then—its assembly was from the nose back to where they put the wings on; no wings yet. And they were on tracks and when it would come time to move, they would just roll it down and another one would come into position. They would just—in one end, out the other. And one day I happened to look over and thought, what is that? That’s not a tanker. They said, well, that’s the first commercial jets—passenger. The first six were Pan-American—for Pan-American Airlines. We built six of those. And then the next one was American and Qantas and all of the foreign companies. But all a 707 was at that time was a KC-135 tanker with the fuel base taken out, and the boom and everything on the back for refueling. And they made that—[LAUGHTER] Boeing made a fortune off a government expense building those KC-135 tankers and doing all the design work and the engineering on them. And then they just simply made the 707 out of that tanker. After I was there a couple of years, in one part of the hangar, they started putting this big black shroud up from the ceiling to the floor. The rest of the crew says, what’s going on over there? The boss wouldn’t say anything, just shut up and mind your own business. These guys started walking around in suits with their dark glasses on inside the building—sunglasses. And they’re all leaning a little bit to their left. I got up close enough look and said, oh, this guy’s got a hog leg in there—he’s got a pistola. They were Secret Service. What they were doing there was building Air Force One. A 707—the first one.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Milliman: They picked six of us, and they assigned one of those Secret Service guys to two people. And he would follow you wherever you went—even to the bathroom. And I would—being me, I’d tell them a joke, and he’d just stare at you. [LAUGHTER] The boss’d call us in the office. You leave those guys alone. You don’t speak to them, you answer their questions, and that’s all there is to it. Well, I said, they haven’t got a sense of humor. [LAUGHTER] You especially—[LAUGHTER]—knock it off. Okay. If you came out of that shrouded area to go to the tool room to get a tool, a pair of footsteps right behind you. The guy’d say, what are you doing? Why do you need that? Ask you all kinds of questions. He’d look and check it all out, follow you right back in again. You go eat lunch, the guy’s sitting there looking in your lunchbox and seeing what you’re eating. Hey, want a sandwich? [LAUGHTER] Oh, oh, oh, back in the office, the boss shaking his finger at you. I left there in—I started getting homesick. I wanted to smell the sagebrush again and the cottonwoods in the springtime and all that fuzz they put out and everything. Then I came home and courted my girlfriend and got married. Then I went to work for General Electric in 1960. I had two boys and a girl. Was living and moved into Richland at that time, and then moved back to Benton City, which was my home. I’d been there all my life.</p>
<p>Franklin: How long did you live in Richland for?</p>
<p>Milliman: Probably two years.</p>
<p>Franklin: Where did you live in Richland?</p>
<p>Milliman: Oh. Marshall Street. Don’t remember the exact address, but it was on Marshall. I’d come in on Van Giesen. Moved from there, rented a place there, and then moved to Benton City and bought a home and raised the kids up. Got them up through high school. They graduated there. Then, like I say, went to Montana for almost three years. Then back home for Battelle.</p>
<p>Franklin: What did your wife do when you worked at Hanford?</p>
<p>Milliman: She—just a homemaker. She worked at grocery store, checker. And we got a divorce in—gosh—imagine that. I can’t even remember. The kids all got married. They had kids. Then I remarried. Wife’s a registered nurse, works here at Life Care Center in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Milliman: Very talented person. And she will come home and tell me strange stories that happens there. Like this one fellow was in this motorized scooter. And he was just dying for a cigarette. Nobody would give him a cigarette. So he got in his motorized scooter and he escaped out the door. He went down to the corner to the 7-Eleven store and buy him a pack of cigarettes. Now, this guy is on oxygen. And he come back, and he lit up. My wife, Christine, said she heard, my goodness! That man’s on fire! She said they all rushed out the door! [LAUGHTER] And the guy’s on fire, and they got the fire out. It melted the plastic right into his face. And she says, every time I look at him, I can hear that. That man’s on fire! And he’s still there. Then they have—she says that one person in particular keeps calling the Richland police and telling them that—hey, they kidnapped me. They’re holding me against my will. [LAUGHTER] And she says the police show up with their hands on their guns. She says, I just put my hands up and say it’s a false alarm. About the third time he calls, they’ll say, well take his phone away from him then. [LAUGHTER] Some of the funny things that happen in life.</p>
<p>Franklin: So when you worked for—what did you do when you worked for GE and Douglas United?</p>
<p>Milliman: We were metal handlers, which meant they were canning up six an agent uranium slugs for the reactors. A metal handler, all he did was they had—you’d stand in front of this hydraulic machine that the metal carrier, after they got—dipped those things in the hot aluminum and silicon, inside of aluminum can, then the guy who had a pair of tongs, he’d come over and he’d put them in these two baskets. And the baskets would drop into the water, come up, and drop again. And then the basket would turn towards you, and my job was you pulled slugs out. They had a metal container around them. You had to scrape the aluminum and silicon off the metal can. And then you took out the uranium slug that was clad in aluminum and put it in the pallet. The process went on like that all day long. Then I moved back to final inspection. The lights were so bright in this cubicle we had. And you would look at the welds—they had to weld endcaps on these slugs and you had to look for pinholes and voids. <br /><br />I did that for a year or so, and then I went to final inspection, which we were radiographing, x-raying the slugs for voids and stuff. Beside the station there where we were radiographing these slugs, there were about 30 autoclaves, just—they stood up about this high above the metal floor. There’s 200-pound hydraulic door that closed on those autoclaves, and what they would do, they would load 60 of these slugs—these uranium slugs—in a basket. They had little round cylinders, and you’d put the slug in so they wouldn’t bump against each other. You’d put six in the basket, and they’d get an array of six baskets, which were 240 slugs. They all had a hole in the basket through the center. They would load this—put this big steel rod down through the baskets and they’d put a pin in the bottom. And the crane would come overhead and pick that whole stack up and lower it down into the autoclave. Then the operator would give the signal, close the door. Then he had a pipe—there was a handle sticking out, and he had a pipe he’d stick under a big cheater bar. And he would pull that door shut and the locking lugs would all come out and lock the lid on there. Now, on the end of that pipe on the door was a round hole. Underneath of it was a hydraulic device that had a pin in it. And the pin had to come up and go through that hole in the handle before he could ever bring it up on pressure. He’s looking at his control panel, okay, this one’s okay. I’m going to bring it up on tremendous pressure—steam pressure. <br /><br />We were radiographing our slugs, me and this other employee. Pretty soon the floor started shaking. What? Earthquake? What? And then we seen the operator. He got up and he started walking over towards this one autoclave. His head come up, and his head come up and he looked like a giraffe. He looked like his head was this high above his body. He looked, and he just turned and started to run, because he could see that door on that autoclave shuddering. And that pin had just barely touched the edge of that hole and give him the signal that the door was locked, which it was not. And that thing just worked that door around until it got past the locking lugs. <br /><br />The hinge pin on that 200-pound door was two-inch solid steel. It snapped that like a toothpick. It blew the lid off, and blew it up through the roof and stuck it right in the monorail—the crane rail, and just bent a big U and stuck right there. The steam pressure on that started firing those baskets and those uranium slugs—it was just like a cannon barrel. You know—zoom—boy. <br /><br />Me and this other fellow jumped onto this steel table. And the workers that were on the outside of the building, they said they seen those baskets and those slugs go 80 feet above the building and then they came back down through the roof, back down on us. And these things were hitting—dropping all around us. And of course me and him were under the table. People scattered. It just happened to be that this was right at shift change. The other crew was coming in; we was getting ready to leave. And right in the middle, that thing went through the roof. What was—after the slugs kept raining down, after they stopped, me and that fellow underneath there was on our hands and knees and we started laughing—just giggling insanely. [LAUGHTER] You know what, because you can hear these things hitting above you on that table—ba-ding, ba-ding. <br /><br />Then the criticality alarm went off. And that wasn’t funny. We thought, uh-oh. One of those slugs ruptured and we’re all crapped up. And that’s what they—crapped up. And then they told us that it was a false alarm—which seemed kind of strange. Criticality alarm going off. <br /><br />But the bad thing about working back then for General Electric and Douglas United Nuclear was they picked six or eight of us—I think there were eight of us—and they took us out of the 313 Building where we were canning slugs up. They took us over in this Butler Building, they called them. A tin—kind of a tin shack. Went in there, and all this fancy equipment in there and a great big, long, open-front hood. What are we doing here? We had a supervisor, his name was Paul Rhoades. They called him Dusty Rhoades. He said, you guys have been picked—[LAUGHTER]—for guinea pigs. [LAUGHTER] Well, yeah, what’s new? [LAUGHTER] They had designed a process to can up thorium. And thorium is a white powder; it’s just like flour, like a sandy flour. It was for the atomic subs, and they used that on the front face of the reactor in the sub as a biological shield, because thorium oxide is not radiation-wise as hot as uranium slugs.</p>
<p>Franklin: But they were the fuel element?</p>
<p>Milliman: Fuel element, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: But they were safer.</p>
<p>Milliman: Instead of uranium, it was thorium. Instead of a uranium slug, it was thorium oxide. Thorium oxide is a bone seeker. Cancer of the bones and stuff. Once, when we first started out—now, we’re working in this open-faced hood, and we’re pounding this stuff in the can. You got a—oh, it’s a rod about this big around with a flat on top. And it comes on a conveyor belt to you. The scale is weighing it out on an electronic scale. And these are little tin cylinders. You take it and you got a funnel thing here and you put the aluminum can in and lock it down. Pour the thorium oxide into the can and then pound it in there. You had a mark on that tamping bar that you had to put it down, get it to that mark, or else it would cause a variation in the quantity that was in there. You had to put it all in, or no go. There were six of us pounding that stuff into those cans. <br /><br />Now, you had a pair of white coveralls on, you had your surgeon gloves on, taped at the wrist, and you had a leather glove. No respirator, no anything. You just—the glass came down about nose-high. And you were working with that stuff, and it was just a white fog in front of you. Now, when they’d blow the whistle for you to go to lunch, what we would do was we would—and we were—that powder would be all the way up to your elbows. You could see it on your coveralls. You would brush your coveralls off, and then you would take the leather gloves off, and you would take the tape off, and leave your surgeon gloves inside there in the trash. And then we would all come out of there and walk over to the step-off pad, and all six of us are getting out of our coveralls and—I thought, man, that stuff’s got to be going airborne. <br /><br />Then we’d take the Scintran. We’re okay, no bad stuff on us. They would take us down, when we first started out, once every two weeks to the Whole Body Counter. They’d scan us from head to foot. Then it got to be once a month, and then once every two months. They pulled me out of there and they said, you eat a lot of fish? No, why? They say, you got a high zinc content in you. And I didn’t think much of it at the time. <br /><br />But I got my dose reconstruction back here in 2012. I was contaminated with thorium oxide, which turns into some exotic thing, so they say. And they had the audacity to tell me I picked it up in the 1960s during atomic testing. And it just happened to be thorium oxide, which—anyways. [LAUGHTER] I turned the claim in, which was denied. But for the other three cancers, I got compensated for that. Two basal cell carcinomas and one other cancer that is pretty common in a male—prostate cancer. They compensated me for that, which—it doesn’t make up for your health now. But I just got examined the second. In fact, the Cold War Patriots, which I’m very proud of—to be a member of—they found the asbestos in my lungs when they gave me my—every three years you’re allowed a complete physical. They go over you from head to foot, and they picked up the asbestos in my lungs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Milliman: And then the second, they told me because of that, they told me I have COPD and lung capacity is at half. Which makes it hard to do anything.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Milliman: Went to Cancun—my wife and I—on vacation. They got a mile-and-a-half zip line there—1.7 miles. Of course, the towers—the different towers you got to get on. [LAUGHTER] Take me a half-hour to get onto the top of the tower. Run out of steam before you get there. It’s been an interesting life; it’s been an interesting career. While we were in canning up thorium oxide, they had—they were all plywood walls, and they had that—it was like crepe paper insulation back in the days when they built those back in the ‘42s and ‘43s. And sat there, and I happened to look at the wall. They had painted the wall with a white epoxy paint. I got to looking at the wall, and, man, that thing’s blowing bubbles. I told the guy, and he looked over and said, how come that wall’s bubbling? I don’t know. So we come out of the hood, got cleaned up and went over there. Was looking at the wall and that epoxy would blow a bubble and then pop. What’s going on here? Well, little did we know there was a welder on the outside of that tin building. And he was welding us up some gas manifold pipes, and he set that insulation on fire. We had a big exhaust fan up in the attic and it was whipping that up—the flame up through there—and it was blistering that plywood epoxy paint. And the boss come over and said, what are you guys doing? Get over and get to work! He said, what are you doing? I said, well, we’re looking at the wall here. He’s looking and he said, how come that’s bubbling? [LAUGHTER] He says, do you see any smoke? He says, no. And they have where they’d plugged—patched the plywood with the—you’ve probably seen it—little square there, a diamond-shaped thing in the plywood where they’ve patched a hole in. One of them popped out. And he looked and he said, uh-oh, I see some fire. Now, you guys just stay here. He went and locked the door! He stepped out and locked us in there! And then he pointed to the back, which—it was a step-off pad off the back, a concrete area they had roped off. We could go out there and stand. And here come the firetruck. He missed the place, he backed up and come, and the other guy’s still welding. He don’t know he set the building on fire. And they chopped a hole in it, put the fire out. Boss sent us to lunch. We come back, never missed a lick. Just went right back to work again. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. [LAUGHTER] That’s—</p>
<p>Milliman: That was kind of sad. One of the sad things was I was watching the TV and they detonated the smokestack out at 100 F. I thought, man, that was right beside the building we were working in.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you remember any Navy officials ever coming to inspect the process--</p>
<p>Milliman: Navy?</p>
<p>Franklin: --you were working on?</p>
<p>Milliman: Navy?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, because you said you were making these slugs for the nuclear submarines.</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah. And we didn’t know that until after we got—we did two different sessions over there, two different years. Never seen any Navy personnel—of course, we were just—we were just the employees, and not privy to that. But with Battelle, that was different. When the sponsor—NCI or any of the dignitaries from the companies that we had a contract with, they would all come and talk to us. I can remember, we got called in the office—a good friend of mine that worked there with me and his name was Gary Ell. The sponsor—and he was the head hog, I mean over everything—he was in the change room with us. And when we’d first seen him, about a year before that, he was huge. He was a very large man, almost a beast. When he come the second time, I swear, he must have lost 200 pounds, because he looked normal, you know. And he was in the change room with Gary and I, and we were suiting up getting ready to go into one of the sterile zones. And Gary said, I bet I know what—well, first the sponsor said, hey, what do you think, guys? I lost about 200 pounds. Yeah. Gary said, you know what? This guy’s name was Joe. He said, I bet I know what Joe’s thinking about right now. I said, what? He said, I bet he’s thinking about a big chocolate milkshake. [LAUGHTER] The guy had some choice words for us. And next thing you know, we were sitting in the boss’s office and he’s shaking his finger at us. [LAUGHTER] If you couldn’t put some humor into the situations we were in, it wasn’t worth being there, because—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right!</p>
<p>Milliman: [LAUGHTER] But it’s been very rewarding for me, all except the—like I say, back then they didn’t know what asbestos—the danger of that, and the potential carcinogens.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Milliman: But been very rewarding.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you—were you working onsite, or do you remember when they started to bring the spent nuclear—the submarine reactors back--</p>
<p>Milliman: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: --to be buried onsite?</p>
<p>Milliman: We had nothing to do with that whatsoever. We were just making the fuel for them. We never got—weren’t privy to what happened afterwards.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Milliman: But we didn’t know that was for the atomic subs until—it was quite a while after they finally told us, hey, you’re canning up fuel for the atomic subs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Kind of interesting, though, to think that you canned that fuel and then now Hanford is the repository for all of the spent reactors. That they cut them up and buried them in the same place.</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah. A friend of mine, he just retired. He was working out there for CH2M Hill and a bunch of other contractors. His job was to go sample the burial grounds after they dig them up. He had a lot of interesting stories to tell about that. One thing that—[LAUGHTER] This was during the ‘60s. If you recall, in the paper, Hanford put out a news blurb about any of the duck hunters. They were checking thyroids on ducks, and they wanted you to bring your duck heads in—their neck and their head, so they could check them. And they come up with some strange reason why they were doing this. Well, a friend of ours, he brought this big old mallard duck in. That thing was so hot, he ought not have been anywhere near that thing. They grabbed him and scrubbed him down until his skin was bleeding. Those ducks were going out to the cooling ponds out in the Area, which weren’t screened over at that time. And ducks were dabbling down at the bottom, picking up strontium-90 and all these radioactive elements. And then that guy’s got that duck in his hand and put the Scintran up there and that thing went nuts. And they scrambled and suited up. And they never did come out with why they were doing that until later on. It finally came out that those ducks—you know, they see a big pond out there, they go out there and dabble around in it and get crapped up.</p>
<p>Franklin: When did they finally start screening those, do you remember?</p>
<p>Milliman: Oh. No, it was—that must—they had them all screened over by—probably by ’75. If I recall, it was about that time. But that friend of mine said, boy, they scrubbed me until I was bleeding. Oh, they went to his home, also.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Milliman: And they tore up the carpets, furniture—everything. Because he come in the house, hey look at this duck I got you. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. So later, when you worked for Battelle, you said that you had done that animal testing, and you introduced animals to nickel oxide and cobalt oxide. Why those two chemicals? Were those used at Hanford, or did those have other applications?</p>
<p>Milliman: Other applications: commercial. Most of the testing was manufacturing-type applications, like the asbestos concrete exposure that I was on. That was the sawdust off of transite pipes. When the craftsman would saw the pipes to length, he’s inhaling that transite pipe dust, and he don’t know there’s asbestos in it. Most of the—well, in fact, all of the contracts we got were to test whether they were potential carcinogens.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s really—so when you were doing cigarettes, then, was it—when you were doing this, was it known that they were—obviously, most people, like, knew, but was it a stated fact, federally, or—</p>
<p>Milliman: Not at that time, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or did your research help lead to that?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah. We got that contract from the National Cancer Institute. Later on, for Battelle, they did a—maybe it was Liggett and Myers. They were doing a cigarette exposure, which was very hush-hush. Nobody would tell you a thing about what went on in that room. Even the technician was sworn to silence. Because of the manufacturer of that product, not because there was anything sneaky going on; they just didn’t want it to get out before they finished the study. And also expose them to diesel exhaust smoke.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Milliman: We went over to Kennewick one time, right there on the main street. We set up an air sampler on all four corners. The asbestos content in the air was higher than it was in Johns-Mansfield’s where they’re putting these asbestos bats together for insulation for homes. The reason for that, it was coming off the break rooms. There was asbestos in the break rooms. And the cars going by kept that stuff fanned up. You walk down the street, you’re taking on asbestos. And then we went to all the food stores around and bought different liver—hog liver, beef liver, chicken liver. Dashed that down, went to the chemical analysis of it. [LAUGHTER] I would never, ever—I never liked it anyway—but I would never, ever eat liver. There was Dibestrol and growth inhibitors, hormones, heavy metal. [LAUGHTER] No liver for me! [LAUGHTER] But that—all these things they’ve been pumping in all these animals, in these feed lots and everything, Dibestrol and growth stimulators and hormones, left a residue in the liver, which is the collecting point of everything—your filter. And then people are eating that and they’re ingesting it and it’s sticking with you.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. Wow. Were you working—you were working onsite when JFK visited in 1963. Did you go to the dedication at the N Reactor?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yes, went out to see him, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: What do you remember about that?</p>
<p>Milliman: I can remember him saying, boy, you have a hot country here. And he was pulling on his—here. That was a thrill, to see the helicopters, there he comes! And they said, no, that’s the decoy. And then they finally came in and landed. It was just blistering hot that day. People were passing out in the crowd. It was—you couldn’t see the ground for the people, I mean, there was hundreds out there. It was very hot. But that was kind of a thrilling thing to see the President. Big to-do about it, of course.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were there any other events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you were working there that—or at Battelle that stand out to you, besides the couple explosions you mentioned?</p>
<p>Milliman: Just minor humorous things that had happened. One time, they brought all these Japanese dignitaries. Now, our aerosol physicist was named Douglas K. Craig. And he was a very proper person. He called me an illiterate savage. But that was early on in my career. When I hired in, he was the—I worked for the doctor, the German. And Douglas K. Craig was the aerosol physicist. The doctor got the contract; the aerosol physicist was responsible for the outcome and the design and everything. Me being an old country kid at that time—his speech and his manner, and being so stiff and prim and proper, you know, kind of made me chuckle. I proved him wrong a couple of times. And he would say, but that cannot be! That cannot be! [LAUGHTER] Well, it is! [LAUGHTER] <br /><br />Anyway, I endeared myself to him by just using common sense, and he and I got to be—he’d come and ask me, he’d say, how would you do this? And all it was was common sense—an uncanny knack of figuring out how to generate all these exotic chemicals we were using. The one thing I do remember, before the asbestos exposure ever started, they had this huge cylinder, and it was—it had this tube with a plunger in the bottom. And they’d put the asbestos in there and screw it in the bottom of this big column. And it had the air jets going in. It would suck the asbestos—you had to maintain the concentration within 10% for six hours. Which—pbbt—there went the asbestos in the chamber. So the engineers—aerosol physicists, they worked on this thing for months. We were about ready to lose the contract. And they finally gave up on it. And I asked them, I said, hey, what are you going to do with that generator? And they said, well, we’re going to junk it, bury it. Can I play with that thing? Humph! Yeah, sure, Mr. Einstein, go ahead. <br /><br />By the time I got done, that asbestos generator was this tall, and by chance, I found out you had to pack that stuff into the tube and tamp it down—13 grams in exactly seven inches. I turned that thing on, and I couldn’t find an aggregate that the air jets wouldn’t—I didn’t want the air jets to blow in there and send that stuff out. I tried pieces of gravel, and I tried little kid’s jacks—I cut them up and put them in there, and they’re rattling around on top. And everything got dull. I even took some screws and cut them in half and dropped in there. <br /><br />Anyway, I was sitting there one day trying to—I thought, boy, you’re a dummy if you can’t figure this out. And I had a bunch of crucibles, and the lids sitting on the shelf there. And I thought, ceramic, ceramic, I wonder. So I took the crucible lid and put it in a paper towel and took a hammer and beat it up. And I took those pieces and I looked and I said, well, that one looks about right. I picked up four of them and I dropped in that tube and that stuff started rattling around. They never did get dull. <br /><br />The first—we were shooting for 24 micrograms per liter. And the first sample I took was 23.9. And I thought, wow! So I got ahold of the aerosol physicist and he come over. And I had all my data; I’d been taking samples of that all day long. And he come over and he says, what is this? No, that can’t be! Yeah, it can be. I said an illiterate savage like me, I’ve got enough brains to figure this out, you know that? Dr. Douger. [LAUGHTER] <br /><br />Anyway, we got the contract. He would walk around me and look at me and he said, but you have no—you have no education, you know. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, well? All mine come from common sense. And that would infuriate him. But went up to his office one day, why, fellow technician, and he had a rock as a paperweight there. It was kind of a U-shaped rock. And I said, Doug! He said, you’ll address me as Dr. Douglas K. Craig. Doctor will be fine. That’s okay. Douger, where’d you get that rock? [LAUGHTER] Lay some of this hillbilly stuff on him. He said, why? I said, you know what? Where’d you get that? And he said, well, my walk down at the river one day. [LAUGHTER] I said, my gosh. Don’t you agree? And my partner, he said, oh yeah. He went right along with me, you know. He said, why? What? I said, do you know what that is? That’s a left-handed Indian throwing rock! He says, what? Oh my! An artifact? And I said, yeah! See how it fits your hand? I said, the Indians throw them and knock them jackrabbits over. And he said, oh my! And he took it away from me. He was looking at it, and—[LAUGHTER]—he put it there and said, wow. I’ll cherish that. An artifact. Wow! And he was talking to himself. <br /><br />About that time, the other scientists come in, and they knew we were a couple of jokers. And he come in—his name was John Belue. And John heard what we were doing, and when we come out of the office, he said, you better hope he never finds out. [LAUGHTER] What that junk of rock. And I said, my goodness, maybe we ought to not play that joke on him. <br /><br />But Dr. Douglas K. Craig and I ended up being good friends. He finally—he moved down to California and went to work for another research outfit. And he would call me up. And he’d say, Edward, my friend! And when he’d start that, I knew he wanted to know something. And when I got the device that I patented, the calls were coming in from all over the world—foreign companies, research outfits—because the device they had on the market was the Dust Right Speedmill. And it was very unstable way of generating any kind of particulate or solids. And it would break down. Very poor performance on them. When I made that device, all you had to do was pour the powder in. Two working parts, two bottle brushes, one spirally wound like an auger, the other was flexible brush. And it was just in a—you’d pour the—it had a Lucite—I made it on my kitchen table one night. About a year later, after I got the patent on it, I checked in to see what they were selling them—Battelle Development Corporation made a nice design and stainless steel and--$15,000 a pop. For two bottle brushes. I got one silver dollar for the patent and taken to supper, and that was that.</p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Milliman: [LAUGHTER] So, they’re making money hand-over-fist on me. But a lot of people calling for reprints. I had to write a technical report on that, and they published it. I didn’t bring one of them copies with me, but I got calls from all the world—scientists wanting to know about it, how—I say, well you can make it yourself on your kitchen table. And there’s the boss, whopped me on the head, don’t tell them that! Sell it to them, you dope! [LAUGHTER] But that was probably the highlight of my career, was the—just common sense. Now, the scientists and the doctors—12, 13, 15 years of college education. But they don’t teach them anything about common sense. And that’s all I ever worked on, was—being a farm kid, having to repair your own machinery, things like that. It wasn’t hard to figure out how to endear myself to the company by just using common sense.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s great. Just a couple more questions, I guess, until we move on to the stuff you brought, which I’m really excited to have you narrate. Do you remember—how did—sorry—do you remember any impact from large nuclear incidents on your work, like Three-Mile Island or Chernobyl? Because you would have been working for Battelle at that time. Do you remember any particular impact of those incidents on your work or kind of the attitude of the work or people here?</p>
<p>Milliman: I remember reading it in the paper, and wondering how much of that stuff was going around the world in the airstreams. Probably paid more mind to Chernobyl when it blew its stack. Now, when Mount St. Helens blew up, I was in Yakima. I was going up and going camping. I spent the night in Yakima. I woke up, I thought it was too early and went back to sleep. I woke up, and I thought, my goodness. Did I sleep all day? It’s getting dark out. And I turned the radio on, and—uh-oh. I took off for home, and I just beat that dust cloud down to Benton City. Most of it went over the top of us, like, end up at Moses Lake and Spokane and—but we got the contract for exposing hamsters to Mount St. Helens fly ash. And if you looked at the fly ash under a microscope, it looked like—it was kind of crystalline, and it was—it looked like a little kid’s jack they play with, but a million spikes sticking on that thing. It looked like a sandbur. And that stuff, when you inhaled it, just cut your lungs up to pieces.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, I bet. Wow. How did the atmosphere surrounding the Cold War affect your job or your life? Did you notice anything, or can you recall anything?</p>
<p>Milliman: A lot of contracts from the Army. A lot of contracts. And, like I say, one of them was the CS2 with the disabler in it. A lot of activity that nobody would say anything about. They’d say, hey, what you guys working on? What you fellas working on? Blank stare and walk on, you know. You’d better not ask them anymore. But a lot of activity from the Army. Didn’t seem—I don’t think I ever saw any Navy personnel; if I did, they weren’t in uniform. A lot of strange people around that time coming and going.</p>
<p>Franklin: What about living here, living next to Hanford and all the activities? Did you ever feel like maybe you were safe because of all the Army attention here, or maybe you were not safe because Hanford might be a target if a war ever broke out?</p>
<p>Milliman: I always thought about it being a target, being there were quite a number of reactors out there. You thought, well, if they’re going to hit something, it’ll probably be Hanford. Never lived in any fear of it, but when they start all this down-winders stuff in the papers—contamination from Hanford, that did make me kind of wonder. It didn’t make me feel ill-at-ease, but it just—you didn’t know what you were inhaling. You didn’t know what was coming down the ground that the cows were eating and you were drinking your milk, which ended up being a big deal in later years. My children never thought much about it, either. My brothers and sisters did, and they all moved away to different places. I told them, hey, you can’t outrun the air currents. That stuff’s coming down all over. Especially during the atomic testing, when they were—<br /><br />Once they sent me to—Battelle sent me to University of Davis to represent them. This was—I’d only worked there about a year-and-a-half, two years, maybe, at the most. They sent me down there and little did I know they—[LAUGHTER]—They sprung me as their guest speaker. I didn’t know anything about it. Boss of mine set that up. Boy, I thought, my goodness, what in the world am I going to talk about? And I thought, you got to put some humor in this thing. Because I’m shaking. I’m young and dumb and I said, whoo! And all these people sitting there watching me, all the dignitaries and the—I said, well, we’re doing research with hamsters. And most of these were all hamster people. It was a big hamster research convention there. I said, the first thing you have to do, as you all know, is you got to get them loose from your finger. [LAUGHTER] Those are the bitingest animals in the world. Everybody thinks they’re so sweet and cuddly, until it latches onto your finger.<br /><br /> And I can remember when we were making them—introducing them to cigarette smoke—of course they had the smoking dogs out there, too, which are famous, you know, every time they mention the—and those dogs were addicted. They’d fight you for a cigarette. You’d open the cage and they’d jump right in your arm and stick their head in the mask. You know, put the cigarette in and light it up, boys! But I can remember many times those hamsters latching on and locking their jaws up and biting you right through the fingernail, right to the bone. You’d have to take the handle on the pair of tweezers and jack his jaw open to get your finger back out. If the boss knew this he’d kill me. We had this one particular hamster, he didn’t bite you—I mean, he’d go after you. He’d bite you every time you—most of them, they’d bite you once and let it go at that. But this one he’d bite you ever time you got near him. And he’d just defy you. Pick me up, I’m going to bite you. Well, me and my partner said, what do you think? Well, I’m tired of him biting me. I hope he’ll pretty soon. Maybe he’ll die. He wouldn’t die. So we grabbed him one day, got him by the scruff of the neck and we took him by the side cutter and cut his teeth off. And after that, he’d chomp down on you, and hey, can’t bite, you know! Well, for the rest of his life, we had to soften up his food and feed him so he wouldn’t die. He couldn’t bite you. But we said maybe we ought to not done that. <br /><br />Those hamsters—what actually—the asbestos hamsters were the only ones that would do this. Their water nipple hung above their head, and you had a big water tree you’d put on the cage. And that’s how they got their water. They’d take their finger and stick in that water nipple and sit in there and let the water run on them. We’d sit there and watch through the window. And of course, they’d make a terrible mess. Because we had them on these racks, and we had absorbent pads underneath of them. In the morning when we’d take them out, we’d have to roll that pad up and put it in the garbage. Well, they’d just flood that thing. Their tray had a lip around it. It was an awful mess to clean up. So we got to watching them—we’d look through the window at night. And there they are, they’re taking their finger and sticking it in that water nozzle and letting the water coming down there and they’re showering and shampooing and shaving. We’d go in there and quit that, quit that. They’d all quit, and the minute we’d leave, there they are with their finger in the water nipple taking a shower.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was only the asbestos ones?</p>
<p>Milliman: Only the asbestos animals did that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. Do you think that was maybe like some kind of neurological--?</p>
<p>Milliman: I think it was the fibers tickling them and itching them.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Milliman: Because that stuff was all over them.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Interesting. So, anybody else have any questions?</p>
<p>Emma Rice: Yeah. Minor clarification. When you worked at Battelle, what was your job position exactly?</p>
<p>Milliman: Started—hired in just as a—well, for Battelle, it was just technician.</p>
<p>Rice: Technician. Because you went from being a metal handler to—</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah, from General Electric, they called us a metal handler.</p>
<p>Rice: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Milliman: Then they made me the inhalation specialist. And then things kind of slowed down, so I kind of got demoted back to a technician again, and that’s when we went into the control rooms and each of us had an assigned control room that we ran. Many, many different chemicals would go through them control rooms that we were generating. Everything potential carcinogen. I like that word. Potential carcinogen. [LAUGHTER] Formaldehyde—that’s some bad stuff, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: So, should we do the pictures now?</p>
<p>Hungate: Okay. I’m going to stop now.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Hungate: Change—</p>
<p>[NEW CLIP]</p>
<p>Milliman: “About air pollution except the U. S. Patent Office which has awarded a patent to the Department of Energy for a device that will ‘deliver uniform concentrations of dust for a long period of time.’ It was developed by Edward E. Milliman at the Pacific Northwest Laboratory operated for DOE by Battelle Memorial Institute. People, however, need have no fear as the dust is used in research to test the potential health effects of dust compounds when inhaled into the lungs of laboratory animals. Some of the tested dusts have talc powder, CS2, and Mount St. Helen’s ash. The prototype of the unit cost is about $50.00, and the number is 4,424,896 – if anyone cares.”</p>
<p>Franklin: So this was the device you invented that then they were selling for—</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: $15,000?</p>
<p>Milliman: 15,000.</p>
<p>Rice: Do you want me to take some of these smaller ones?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah. Now, this is how you make a hamster smoke cigarettes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that’s you?</p>
<p>Milliman: That’s me, 1970. Boy, I had a lot of hair.</p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Milliman: There’s 30 cigarettes in this turn, and it will take a puff off of each cigarettes, and then it rotates, and there’s 30 hamsters in these tubes. They have no choice. The smoke comes down through this column here. They have no choice.</p>
<p>Franklin: I forgot to ask you—did you ever smoke cigarettes?</p>
<p>Milliman: Yes, I did.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Milliman: After we took the lungs out of these animals, I put the cigarettes in the garbage can and never smoked since.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Rice: [INAUDIBLE]</p>
<p>Milliman: This one of the exposure chambers. This is where they—each rat—</p>
<p>Hungate: Whoops, just one second, we’re getting quite a bit of glare.</p>
<p>Milliman: Okay.</p>
<p>Rice: Can you hold it from the top? See if you can hold it flat. There we go.</p>
<p>Franklin: There we go. That looks good.</p>
<p>Milliman: This is the exposure chamber, designed by Battelle. Rats and mice and hamsters were all individual in each compartment. And then I think they would a couple hundred critters. The—whatever you’re going to make them inhale comes down a pipe and goes into the top and it’s exhausted out the bottom. The doors are glass, so you can watch—observe the animals.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Rice: Was this just for smoking—the cigarette smoke—or was this--?</p>
<p>Milliman: No, any kind of chemical.</p>
<p>Rice: Any kind of chemical.</p>
<p>Milliman: Vapors, dust—any kind of compound.</p>
<p>Rice: Okay. Next one?</p>
<p>Hungate: It’s the smoker.</p>
<p>Rice: The smoker, yeah. That’s what I was thinking.</p>
<p>Milliman: And that’s how you load a hamster into a smoking tube after you get him off your finger. Now, you can see here that the one—he’s saying, uh-oh, I’m next. And it was also the asbestos exposure. This is all the protection we had on. Just a white paper face mask.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Milliman: And this is one guy that—this is what they do. You take them apart, all the way from his nose, all the way down. Take samples, everything, make slides, and it goes to histology, pathology.</p>
<p>Rice: New one. Here.</p>
<p>Milliman: This was what your lungs will look like if you inhaled Mount St. Helen fly ash.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. So what is the lighter one there on the—</p>
<p>Milliman: NEFA is Nickel Enriched Fly Ash, which has a high content of nickel in it. And the one on the far right is a normal lung.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Wow.</p>
<p>Rice: And the one on the middle is also—</p>
<p>Milliman: That’s nickel-enriched fly ash. The one on the far left is just fly ash.</p>
<p>Franklin: What was the level of exposure here to get this?</p>
<p>Milliman: Probably 25 micrograms per liter. It is equivalent to what a human breathes. Everything was scaled down hamster-size compared to a human.</p>
<p>Franklin: So if you just were walking around and breathing it—</p>
<p>Milliman: Right, correct.</p>
<p>Franklin: How would that compare to, say, cigarette smoking?</p>
<p>Milliman: Cigarette smoke is a long-term thing. Nickel-enriched fly ash is short-term—that does the damage right away. There’s no long period to it. Cigarette smoke, the latency period on that is years. People smoke for years.</p>
<p>Franklin: I guess, like—the damage that’s done, is that equivalent to a certain number of years of smoking?</p>
<p>Milliman: No, this—</p>
<p>Franklin: Or is it kind of a different—</p>
<p>Milliman: This is different here. The lifespan after you inhale this stuff, everyday compared to a cigarette, is very, very short. Cigarette you last quite a bit longer.</p>
<p>Hungate: So on that—I’m just a little curious—so was that fly ash from—</p>
<p>Milliman: Mount St. Helen’s.</p>
<p>Hungate: But it’s not after the explosion, because that’s dated ’77 and the explosion was in ’82.</p>
<p>Milliman: Well, see, they stored this stuff up and we didn’t do the exposure until after that thing blew up. Now these lungs here were probably some of the preliminary stuff. Because they were testing volcanoes from around the world.</p>
<p>Hungate: Oh, so, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Hungate: So this was just volcanic fly ash, as opposed to—</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Hungate: --Mount St. Helens.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So that explains the date.</p>
<p>Rice: Do you have another one?</p>
<p>Milliman: This was the asbestos concrete exposure. Now, this was probably in ’78. And you can see here they finally started figuring out that asbestos was bad for you. Compared to white paper face masks, this—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Now you have a full-body, looks like you have a respirator mask.</p>
<p>Milliman: Yup. We had rubber overshoes on, Tyvek protective clothing, and respirator.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Milliman: This just to have to be around exposure chamber there. These were with hamsters also.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. That’s great.</p>
<p>Milliman: And we are smoking rats. [LAUGHTER] We’re doing the physiology on it. That’s a graph machine, it’s like a lie detector. We’re doing the testing on their respiratory rate, their heart rate. Everything’s sterile. To get where I’m at right there, you had to shower and shave and disinfect and be fully protected. That’s to keep us from giving them disease. It’s not to protect us from the animals. It’s to protect the rats and the mice and the hamsters.</p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Milliman: Here we’re doing the same thing. This is when you go red, you’re on actual exposure from the contractor.</p>
<p>Franklin: So—oh, so there were different color suits for—</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So red would be when you were directly working with chemical—with the particulates?</p>
<p>Milliman: Not necessarily, but that’s what they wanted from us. There was no difference in—other than the color of the—everything’s sterile and sanitized.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that so that other people working would know that you would be—</p>
<p>Milliman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Rice: There’s just these. Do you want to talk about those at all?</p>
<p>Milliman: [LAUGHTER] This is one of the funny things that happened to me. Girlfriend and I were over at the Black Angus in Pasco. We were sitting in the booth and we were eating our supper, steak and mushrooms, and having a fine time. Started getting quiet. I’d already paid for my bill and ordered a cup of coffee and we were sitting there drinking a cup of coffee. Got awful quiet. So I got up and there was nobody around. So we went to go out the door—we guessed everybody left—so we started to go out the door. Well, the door’s locked, we can’t get out. I went in the kitchen hollering, hey, hey, let us out! Bartender gone, kitchen gone, nobody’s there. I got on the pay telephone and called 9-1-1, and I said, hey, we’re locked in the Black Angus. Said, what? [LAUGHTER] Are you playing a joke? No! We want to go home! I got to go to work tomorrow! [LAUGHTER] So they said, what’s your phone number there? So I give them the phone number, they called the place next door. The next door place called us. Phone rang, I picked it up. Yeah, we’re here. He called back, they said, they’re in there. So they figured what happened was we hid in there and we were going to rob the place but we couldn’t get out. So they called me back and they said, well, okay, we’re coming down. I said, don’t come with the police dogs and the guns and stuff and the sirens, because I got to go to work tomorrow. [LAUGHTER] <br /><br />So they—here they come. We were sitting there waiting on them, and there was a little console there and there was some kind of video machine that she and I were trying to figure out how to play. And all at once I told her, don’t move, keep your hands on the table. She said, why? I said, I smell a cop. And slowly, both of us turned our heads, and there were three heads peeking around the door at us. They came in, and they all had their hands on their guns. Whoa, fellas. Get your hands off that hog leg, you’re making me nervous. I’ve been shot once and it ain’t fun. They really questioned us. How’d you get in here? Said, well—they had this manager with them. And he said, you pay for your supper? And I said, yeah, and left a tip. If you keep on being mean to me, I want my tip back. And I kept looking to one police officer, one that came back from Montana and worked at the Bon Marche before they opened up. Me and him were in there as a security guard. He was moonlighting because he was a Pasco cop. And I kept looking at him, I said, Archie Pittman? Archie Pittman? And he looked mad! He said, what are you doing here? I said, just eating supper. And he said, okay, guys, I know him. Let him go. But that come out in the paper said, they knew businesses was hard up for patrons but they didn’t think they was going to lock them up just to keep them! [LAUGHTER] And this is my old friend—I was in the Cub Scouts, I think it was? Me and my old Poncho. Old lifelong friend.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s cute.</p>
<p>Milliman: That’s the box elder tree my brother dove behind to—</p>
<p>Hungate: Dodge the bullets?</p>
<p>Milliman: Dodging a bullet.</p>
<p>Rice: There you go.</p>
<p>Milliman: Great.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, thank you so much.</p>
<p>Milliman: Well, I hope I didn’t make a fool out of myself—</p>
<p>Franklin: You did not.</p>
<p>Milliman: Or bore you to death.</p>
<p>Franklin: No, it was really exciting. It really was! You have some great stories.</p>
<p>Hungate: He’s a story teller.</p>
<p>Milliman: Man, please behave yourself. Don’t lay that hillbilly stuff on them. [LAUGHTER]<br /><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/h3TfrARrCto">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:31:58
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
3000 Area
313 Building
N Reactor
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Edward Milliman
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Edward Milliman conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
07-06-2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2018-29-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/23">Edward Milliman, Oral History Metadata</a>
3000 Area
313 Building
Battelle
Boeing
Cancer
Cat
Cold War
Department of Energy
drinking
General Electric
Hanford
Kennewick
N Reactor
Safety
Street
War
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fef770d057cbd7fcd5e879acb0e88b207.jpg
4163a90a24db7d167a6eaea91a7561ee
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F607e136b0c77f3d9db0c55df91e50740.mp4
9f34d5ceebf274acb1217462d6100458
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Copeland, Harold.
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:49:48
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
602 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
N Reactor
Plutonium Finishing Plant
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
3000 Area
T Plant
184 steam power plants
1100 Building
100 Area
184 Building
Dash-5 Building
221-T
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1947-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1947-1987
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Windchimer, WW
Hall, Lee
Hill, Verne
Lettingham, Jay
Copeland, RW
Galloway, Elijah
Chein, Yao
Madison, Web
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330">
<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Copeland_Harold</span></span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, we can go ahead and get started with the interview.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Harold Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So first I'm going to have you say your name and then spell it also.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yes. I am Harold Copeland, Harold Curtis Copeland, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">H</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-A-R-O-L-D C-U-R-T-I-S C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">All </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">right. And my name’s Robert Bau</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">man and today is August 6, of 2013. And we're conducting oral history</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And so we're going to be talking about your</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">experiences working in the Hanford site. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me first, how you came to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Hanford, when you got here, any first impressions of the place, any of that.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">My wife and I came here from Denver, Colorado in October 1947. I was working for the Bureau of Reclamation.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They were decentralizing their main office, sending people to all the field offices. General Electric came in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">recruiting and they had received word of this decentralization, looking for engineers.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So there were a number of us that thought that's a good opportunity, so we came out here, 1947. We're driving</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">our little three-window Ford Coupe and towing my Harley motorcycle on back. And the first impression of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Richland was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> pretty grim. We came into town and all we saw were these flat-topped, prefab houses. They didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have their peak roofs yet. And there was dust in the road and not hardly any trees.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But we came here. General Electric said there's a job for five years. Well, for the first four or five years, we kept</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">thinking</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, when do we go back to Colorado?</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I grew up in Colorado. See, it's a neat place in Fort Collins and I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">graduated from CSU there, so naturally, it was like home.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But after five years, we began to like this place. We had the Colu</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">mbia River, the Yakima River, ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">d the Blue</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Mountains, the Cascades, and the ocean, and fishing in the ocean not too far away. So we made it our home for</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">all these years.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And when you</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and your wife</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> first came, what sort of housing did you live in first?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They were </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">building houses rapidly. The A and B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> houses, a lot of those were up and people living in them and prefabs,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">as I mentioned. Our first few months, we were living with Lee Hall and his son, 700 Sanford, in a two-bedroom</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">prefab. And a wife and I got the small bedroom.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">She was pregnant when we got here. December 7, the Pearl Harbor Day, but in 1947, our first daughter was born</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and there was pretty cramped conditions with the baby beside the bed and then a two-bedroom prefab, well, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">crying at night. She had not gotten used to sleeping at night.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But Lee Hall said he had one bad ear. He says, put her out in the living room and let her cry out there. I'll just turn</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">my good ear down and I won't hear her. So we did and the crying session and nothing happened from it. Finally</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> got the message </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to Dian</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e that she was supposed to sleep at night, so that was nice.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And Lee Hall was so glad to have a woman in the house to do cooking and do furniture. She did curtains and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">changing paint and putting a woman's touch on</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the house like women can do that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> men don't have any idea about.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, she did that and he was very pleased to have us with us, but they were building the pre-cut houses. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">get in along about in the '48, it was probably in March or April, the pre-cut houses were ready to be occupied. We</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">move</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">d to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> two-bedroom pre-cut. Lee</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Hall was most depressed and dej</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ected because we were leaving and taking all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">his good drapes away.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So we lived at 700 Sanford for several years until about, I think it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">1973, our second child was born. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">o on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">housing list, we were eligible for a bigger house, a three bedroom. We were in a two bedroom.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It so happened I was working with the engineer, Verne Hill was his</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> name. And he lived out on Atkins. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd he said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they had a housing list. Big </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">board behind the glass, a housing </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">list was posted. You'd go down and apply for housing</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that became available. Verne told me his next door neighbor was moving, so I applied for that house before it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">posted, see? So I was first on the list of eligibility for the house and we got the house at 209 Atkins because of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Verne.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> And it—they were well-built houses, number one </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">grade lumber, and it's been a very durable and good place to live over the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">years.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Where was this housing list that you mentioned? Where was that?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They had sort of a housing department located in the vicinit</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">y, very close to where the Rich</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">land Police</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Department is, acro</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ss the street from the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding would be. But they would post this housing list and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">people that were eligible to move would go in and apply.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And how would you describe the town of </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at the time in the late '40s and early '50s? What kind of place</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was it to live?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Very safe place. Good schools. Good housing. No crime. Everybody that worked at Hanford had had their</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">background checks. They wouldn't hire any criminals or</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> background violators. So we could</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> leave our cars unlocked,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">we could leave our doors unlocked, and it was a very safe place. The main thing was security for the plant.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The plant operation security was very, very strict then, but living conditions were very good. They had 700</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">420</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Wright Street. We rented the house. $38 a month. It's a two-bedroom pre-cut called a U house. And the electricity</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was furnished, the water, the sewer. They even give you grass seed to plant your lawn, and if you had some</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">maintenance to be done in the house, call them up and they'd come and fix it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The wind blew a lot. There were no ranch houses at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that time. And the wind came—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they started building the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ranch houses. The soil was all very fluffy and stirred up and we would get one of those terminator winds as they</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were called, the way they would blow dirt into our yard. And there was a terminator wind and there was probably</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">three to four inches of sand blew into our front yard.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The way they took care of it was the fire department came out with their tanker trucks and hoses and hosed this</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">off of our lawns. They also learned, they gave you the plant seed, but they only gave you enough seed for just</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">about one quarter of your lawn at a time. When you get it going, then they give you seed for the next section.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Trying to water it and keep it growing, the whole thing they learned, was too much for the residents. So it was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">very safe, good place to live.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Do you remember any community events, any special events sort of things in the community during that time?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Community events, the one that comes to mind, there were probably some but I can't think </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was the boat races</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd it was called the Atomic Cup, which nowadays is not politically correct. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">call it the Columbia River, then it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was the Atomic Cup for several years. And it used to be a nice place to go and watch the boats, but recent years,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they're so crowded and unruly people that I don't have any reason to go down there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Let's talk about your work in Hanford then. What was the first job that you had when you first came to Hanford in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">1947?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, my degree is in mechanical engineering and that's what I was doing in Denver with the Bureau of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Reclamation. They came out here and I had an engineering job in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I think they call it the 1100 Building</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> It was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">a single story Army barracks type of building. It </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">location of, I would say where the parking lot is now</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">on</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the lower side of the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding. That was its location.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And so I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> worked there until I got my Q</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> clearance and then I was sent to 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea after I got the clearance. After</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, they were in search of instrument engineers. No college courses taught instrumentation.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> The one up in Yaki</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ma was teaching good technicians and the one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at Milwaukee had good technicians, but no</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">engineering.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, I'd been in the Navy and my training in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Navy was with electronics gear:</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> radio, transmitter, receiver,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">sonar, LORAN, and there might have been something else. So I had a lot of this electronic training and I had one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">semester of electrical engineering at Colorado State.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So I transferred over to instrument engineering and </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">shortly after I got to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea and followed that through all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">my time there as an instrument engineer.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So what sorts of duties did you have </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">then? What sorts of things might</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> you do on a typical work day?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, I would work with the instrument technicians, help them with their work. If they needed new parts, I would go</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">write purchase orders. If some of the instruments were getting old and wearing out and needed total replacement,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I would write orders</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> for those and oversee the installation and help the craftsmen, the instrument techs with calibration.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">There's one funny story that </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">just can't forget. Most of my work, some, not all, but most of my works in the 184</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">steam power plants, which provided the steam for emergency use during outages</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd this took place at the N</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Reactor,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the 184. And he was an instrument specialist. And he was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">what do you call them? The steward. He</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was the instrument steward for their craft, Jay </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Lettingham</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And we'd gotten all these new </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Foxborough</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> D</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">P cells in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that we were installing to replace some other instruments</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that were obsolete. There's a much, much better system and we were in this little instrument shop in the 184</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding and I was reading the manual and he was trying to turn the screws and nuts to get it calibrated. And he</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">tried and it didn't work and he tried and it didn't work.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And then what he did,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> he said, here, you take these tools. And so I did it and showed him how to do it. He being a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">steward, see, I wasn't supposed to pick up a tool or touch one, but he had me do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I thought that was a real</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">amusing situation, but we got along. We worked as a team.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And how long did you work at the N Reactor then?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, N reactor from about 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">probably '66 to '87. I retired in 1987. But my first work was assigned in the 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reas. And I was fortunate. One day, I got in on the startup of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">234-5, which they now call the P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lutonium</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Finishing P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lant, but in those days you're probably aware that they named the plants and the facilities in a name that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">did not relate at all to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> what they did. See? Plutonium Finishing P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lant would have been giving away a secret, so it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was 234-5.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Everybody referred to it as the Dash-</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">5 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I was there on the construction and startup of 234-5, mainly working on heating and </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ventilation. Had three big air</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> supply</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> filters and washers and fans for the building and it was a real tough ventilation because there were three</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">separate pressure </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">zones. The office zones were the higher pressure and the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">n there was an intermediate zone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd the zone where the hoods and the work was done was the lowest pressure so that all contamination wouldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">flow from the work area to the shops and clean areas. And it was very difficult to get those pressures to be stable</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and maintained.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got in on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">construction and startup of REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> plant. And then I also got in on the construction and startup of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">UREX. Now, part of the PUREX</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> work, I had an of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">fice under Webster in the 3000 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, North </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, where we</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were working on design work and approving drawings and specifying the type of instruments to be procured. Then</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got to go out to the field and saw them being installed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And I worked for Copeland, R</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">W</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Copeland. That was a coincidence. No relation that I know of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> but he was a good</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">guy to work for. He was, I think, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Blaw</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Knox Construction, if I remember right, that he was in charge of all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the construction there. So I got well acquainted with a lot of welders and pipe fitters and electricians</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">everybody worked together. It was a very cooperative effort in those days.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Your first job was with GE, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">General Electric, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And then what other contractors did you work with?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, it was, I think about 1964. GE's contract was running out. They chose not to want to extend it and so United</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Nuclear came in and took</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> over the contract for the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reas and I think Westinghouse had a contract. There</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">everal contractors for the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, so Uniroyal and couple others. I don't remember the name, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">anyway, Un</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ited Nuclear took over the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, so I worked for them and retired for them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And the plant was down in 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got my neat belt buckle. 20 years, 1964 to 1984. So the plant went down in 1984,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">but I retired in 1987. The neat thing I remember doing there, our maintenance work could only be done when the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reactor was down. The reactor running was producing plutonium and steam for the steam plant. That was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">money earner, so the downtime was kept at a minimum.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">When it went down for good and we thought that it was always going to restart, we went in and replaced a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">tubing and instruments, valves with upgraded material, upgraded design. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> we thought—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I believe that that plant was in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">better condition, had better equipment than when it first started up a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd we always had that hope that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">we didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have any doubt at </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that time--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that it was going to start up again and that all this good stuff in it was really going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">run good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But then because of the Chernobyl incident, the politicians shut it down. It didn't make a scientific and engineering</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">gradual shut down, which would have saved a lot of money in handling n</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uclear fuel and processing it. But t</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hey shut</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">her down because of Chernobyl.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> And I'm not a real good </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nuclear ph</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ysicist, but they think it's a two</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> factor or an n factor. You'd have to talk to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nuc</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lear person. But it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> designed in this N Reactor so that it would not run away and meld itself like the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Chernobyl plant did. It was impossible, but the politicians didn't know that.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Obviously, security, secrecy were a big part of the Hanford site. Can you talk at all about how that part of it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">impacted your work at all in any way or any interesting stories about security?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Some of the security men would hang out in restaurants or bars. I never experienced this or saw it happen, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I've heard about it. And if the customers in there talked anything between themselves or anyone else about</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">anything, the work they were doing or what was going on out there, they were out the door. And most people</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">knew that and obeyed it very, very strictly.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">For a long time, my </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">wife and my daughter, see, they didn't know what I did out there. I couldn't tell them. I'd go to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">work in the morning and come back in the evening and ride the bus. So it was that tight</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd another fun</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ny</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> story, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">kids in school were talking about what </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">does your daddy do out there? </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Of course, they didn't know. And they'd say, my daddy is making toilet paper. He brings it home and his lunchbox.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It was one of the answers that the kid tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t didn't know what's going on w</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">as doing because, I guess toilet paper at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the times</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was not readily available</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> but there </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was still always lots of it out</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at the plant.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">JFK, President Kennedy came to visit.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">What's that?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: President Kennedy came in 1963--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> dedicate</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the N Reactor [INAUDIBLE]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> came</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. What are your memories of that day?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He dedicated the reactor. Well, I was working that day and didn't see it, but my wife and daughter went out and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">got to watch Kennedy designate. He moved the radioactive wand over the receiver and the motorized shovel, big,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">earth-moving shovel, scooped the first scoop of dirt out there, so the way I heard about it, he started it up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Were there any events that sort of stand out in mind from the years working? Any unusual happenings or strange</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">occurrences, sort of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> when you were working out at Hanford at that time</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> or funny stories?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: Yeah, I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that was very amusing. The instrument techs who I worked with, all of them were a bunch of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">good guys. They would play jokes. They had subtle humor and played jokes on people, harmless type of things,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nothing to harm. This occurred in the 221-T, the s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">eparations building in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, 200 West.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And I'd often go over there early in the day, see the instrument foreman, what he was going to assign to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">technicians and what was going on, what was to be done that day so that if it involved something that I needed to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">know, I would be there to hear about it. And one time, we had these ring balanc</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e instruments, we called them pe</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> draggers. They had little pe</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ns. They would make a mark on a round chart, a moving chart and they were a very</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">small pen with ink in them and made a very small line.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And we were having this, I guess, a safety meeting was finished a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> we were talking to this</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they had a secretary.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The instrument foreman had a secretary. I think she was Eleanor, but I'm not sure. Well, one of the guys rigged</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> up one of these ink pens, held it about waist height</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and he had a squeeze bulb with water in it and he squeezed it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">right at Eleanor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So she became all wet on her front side there and everyone was smiling and giggling and she didn't know what</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was going on until she looked.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> You couldn't see the stream it was so fine, see? It was a fine stream. I thought that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was funny! </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Another one in the same building, at quitting time, the guys </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that have their lunch buckets se</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t on the workbench and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">when the bell rang, it was time to go rush out and get on the bus and go home. So this one guy, he was especially</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">quick at grabbing his bucket and getting out so he could get a seat on the bus that he wanted.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, we had a lot of lead bricks. They're the sam</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e size as red bricks that we have</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. This was a lead brick. They put</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">it in his lunch bucket and he came along and grabbed this lunch bucket and all he got was the handle on the top</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">part.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> That was a funny one.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I wonder what you see as were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford were and what were</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">some of the most rewarding</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> parts about working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Challenging and rewarding. Well, the challenging</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and to a certain respect of keeping the secrecy of the plant, one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">of the challenging things was the dust storms called the terminators. And the rewarding thing, I think, was the men</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that I got to work with. They were all good guys, cooperative, pulling together. There was no territorial protection.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">If somebody knew something that the other guy didn't know, he would share it. That was very rewarding to me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">There were different technical problems that I was faced with during the time, which we were able to take care of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and never had any bad accidents.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And you were there for </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">40 years--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Copeland: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I imagine you must have seen some changes take place.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Many.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Either technological changes, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">or </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">instruments. I wonder if there were any changes t</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hat you saw that you thought were </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">important?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yeah, there were a lot of changes. The older instruments in the power houses were</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">can't remember them. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> they ran on a five</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> to 25 psi signal. Then we got these newer </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Foxborough</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> i</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nstruments and then they were three </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to 15</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">psi. And before I left, they were going to forward a 20 milliamp electrical instruments and controls.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And the computer age was just getting started when I retired. And they would allow computer measurements</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reas by then, of course—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nstruments, they would measure pressure temperature and position,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">could be done with computers, but the control the people had, the men, the operators had to maintain control.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They allowed no computer control of the reactor. That was a lim</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">it at that time, but that's gotten</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> past that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> present</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> day. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ut we had computer programs on the old IBM cards, punch cards, that punched the little square holes, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">there was a giant c</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">omputer in the basement of the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding. There was a Boeing computer facility and all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the cards went down there to be processed and problems and answers, solutions work out from that. That was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">just the beginning of that age that I just got in </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">on the start of it, but not any</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">more.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: The site, of course, at some</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> point, shifted from focus on production to focus on cleanup. I wonder if that shift</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">impacted your work at all, the sorts of things you </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">did?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yeah. Well, to back up a little bit more, at one time, we had nine reactors up and down the river operating. And N</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Reactor was a first one in the country and maybe in the world that produced power. It was one of the first power</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reactors</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> of which there are quite a few of them now. So that was a neat thing, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">give me your question again.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, I was asking about the shift from production to cleanup.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">To cleanup. I got in on a little of that before I started working at N reactor, the other BDF and DN</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">DR we</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">re all being</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">shut down and I worked for Wind Chimer, WW Wind Chimer. We were on</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I was probably for about a year--helping with some of the cleanup on that and our motto, our mission was, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">drain and dry the piping and store the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">mercury. That was our mission that we were doing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The other groups were doing other things, but I know that we were tending to that for the shutdown. And at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">time, it was shut down, not that we were not involved in the cleanup yet.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But the shutting down of some of the reactors.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">M</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I wonder if you could—so</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> in a sense, overall your experience workin</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">g at Hanford for those 40 years--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">What about the overall?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hat's your overall assessment of your 40 years working at Hanford? What are your thoughts about</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, very proud. Very positive. I'm proud that I was able to work out there and support the Cold War effort. My first</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">job out of college was with Fairbanks Morse, Beloit, Wisconsin where they made the diesel engines for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">submarines, the OP, opposed piston engi</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ne. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So I got to help with the war effort. Then I got the letter from my draft board that said, greetings, you are a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">selected volunteer, so that's when I got into the Navy. So I got into the Navy parts and then</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, as</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I told you I didn't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to get shot at, but I was working during the war time, then out here for the Cold War. So I had those three parts of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">my life, I think, contributing to the growth and the safety of our nation.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I want to ask you about your running.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">At some point, you got involved in running. When was that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and how did that get started?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Elijah</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Galloway. Dear, dear friend who’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> gone now. He was the Brown Shoe Air Force, that's </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Army Air Corps.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Before</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the Air Force—the present day </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Air Force was formed, the Air Corps was a part of the Army. He said I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">part of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Brown Shoe Air Corps. So he flew</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> missions and did things, but one of the jobs where he got started</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">running was CIA, Russia.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Both he and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> his wife got trained. They had</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> probably most of a year of training in Russian and how to conduct</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">themselves as observers, but really getting spy information, but they were just </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">called observers over in Russia</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And then he participated in all the Russian parties. They had lots of caviar and vodka and pretty soon he was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">overweight. And his doctor, when he went to Germany for a checkup or leave, he said, you need to lose weight.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So he encouraged him to start a running program, which he did</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd he lost weight and he lost weight and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">whenever he would go out on one of these surveillance programs, he'd just go out walking, then he got to running.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He'd count the number of insulators on the power pool, just simple stuff that he could observe while he was out,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">then there was always a Russian counterpart that was with him and following him. He was a runner. And pretty</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">soon, Elijah got so good he could run out and leave this guy.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And so one time, the story he told me, he went out for his run with his counterpart, Russian guy, and he finished</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">his run and then he told the Russian guy, well, let's go out and run your course. Now, I want to run your course.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He was too tired to do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He was a specialist on antennas, jamming and communication, that was his specialty in his work. He had an</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">electrical engineering degree and antennas was his thing. And so he was involved in a lot of that communication</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and jamming for the US over ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e. The one amusing thing that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was taught to his wife. The Russians would</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have a big parade. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They would have these big wheel movers with the missiles on them and they'd have a big</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">parade celebrating how great we are.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And Elijah and his wife,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Beryl, would have their trench </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">coats on and </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have their Leica cameras down at waist</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> high,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">just barely pointing out between the buttons. And they would take pictures and just the time they'd click, they'd go,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [COUGH].</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> And there were always Russians around spying on them. If they heard a camera click, well, then bad news for</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">them. But they</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> could cover this up with [COUGH].</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Just cover it up the click of the camera. That was one of the neat</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">stories</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> he told me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But from his experience with losing weight, he retired and his home was in San Antonio, Texas. And he couldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">stand being retired</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd he'd gone to school with Paul Venter, a name that I mentioned. I think it was probably a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t Whi</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">tworth. I'm not positive, but he knew Paul and he kept in touch over the years and Elijah didn't like being retired</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and he had this electrical degree and Paul says, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hy don't you come up to Hanford?</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> There's some jobs here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Elijah came up here, got a job. He was my office partner and I think I already told you part of it, that he and Jerry</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and I, in my office one day, Elijah said, let's go out on our noon break and go for a little run. Because it had meant</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">so much to him and he felt so much better getting down to a trim weight that he wanted to influence other people</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to enjoy that sam</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e feeling and the euphoria—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the endorphins get into your body when you're running to where</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">you just feel like you're just going and can go forever. Of course, you can't, but you have that wonderful, elevated</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">feeling.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He wanted to share that with everybody and I wanted to share it with other people too that I have run across in my</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">running years. So that was Elijah. It was about 1972 that this happened and I started running and within a year</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">later, I ran my first marathon.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He coached me on how to train for a marathon. It feels good, but don't keep going further than</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> you know,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">increasing not more than 10% or a few miles each day. Hold a very strict schedule of gradual training and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">conditioning. Because if you do try and get too much, you get injured, disappointed, then you quit running. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">has happened, so one thing that he taught me and another people. And so we ran</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the old</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Cheney Marathon up at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Cheney, Washington.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And that Cheney Marathon only lasted, I think, about three years and they discontinued it. But the neat thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I still</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hold the first place for 50 age division at the Cheney Marathon. No one came along later and beat my record</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">because the marathon was stopped.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> A lot of oth</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">er marathons, why, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">someone e</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lse comes along when they turn </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">60 and they beat my record.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">That's how I got start</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ed running and I'm </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> advocate of—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">f not running, I swim or bike or kayak, whatever suit</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> your</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">fancy, whatever you feel good doing, do it, but keep doing something.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Sounds like you were</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> running pretty regularly at your last time period working at Hanford.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Pretty regular. My routine for many years</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was up at 4:30. Do my toilet</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ing, strap on my shorts and shoes, out</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the door at 5:00. I'd run 7 miles in an hour and I was back to the house and Evelyn would have breakfast. I'd quick</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">shower and get breakfast and then I'd catch the bus at 6:30, about a two-block walk from my house, catching the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">bus.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> That was my routine, seven</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> miles </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">every weekday morning and then six</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> miles at noon with the guys at N Reactor. So I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">got 13 miles a day, weekdays. Saturday was the long run day. Do 20 or 22 miles. You have to have some long</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">distance training to train your body to learn to burn fat when you run out of glycogen.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And the person I did that most with was my dear Chin</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ese running friend, Yao Ming </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">“</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Chee-</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">”</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> We would meet</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Saturday and run our 20 to 22 miles. Sunday was a rest day, so I'd ride my bike about 15 miles. That's a different</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> exercise. It rested your</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> running muscles.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Che</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">in</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, I remember, he would, at one of our wedding anniversary parties, Yao Ming and is wife were there and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I was introducing him and he says, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, E before I. He says I before E and everything except </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, C-H-E-I-N.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It wasn't C-H-I-N as Chin, but he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. That made a difference to him.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So he's still around. He lives over in Bellevue. I talk to him every once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> while. We formed a—a </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lot of marathoners, you form a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">bonding, a marathon bonding with these people that you run 26 miles with and you look for them and wonder how</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they are and if they're not at the next marathon, you wonder if they're ill or accident or anything happened. It's a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">bond that, it's hard to describe, but it's there.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Is there any things that I haven't asked you about in terms of your working at Hanford that you think is important to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">talk about and would like to talk about that you haven't talked about so far?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">There's one </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">more funny</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that I didn't incl</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ude. We were working at the PUREX </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">plant, 200 </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">East</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. And this instrument</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">specialist, Web Madison was his name, he</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to back up a bit, they needed instrument technicians that could find</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">work and work on instruments.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So they were looking for watchmakers, all search the country. Watchmakers would qualify. They knew how to do</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">fine, delicate work. Well, there were a lot of watchmakers out there because there was no training for them early</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">on except, later they had the Yakima, forget the name of it, instrument school and the one in Milwaukee.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But Web had tooth problem, teeth all decayed. So he had upper and lo</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">wer plates, all new plates. Had </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">them</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> built</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">by the dentist, you know, nice. And then the one thing that I'm leading up to, if an instrument needed a part and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">you couldn't buy it, they could make it and they could build parts that were broken and replace th</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">em,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> they</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were so good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So Web got his new teeth and he looked at them real close. He built himself a set of stainless steel teeth, a whole</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">set of stainless steel teeth. And one night when he come off shift and through the badge house, the guard always</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">looked at you and looked at your badge and he'd know who you are and he knew who he was. They checked him</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">out. But he flashed those stainless steel teeth at the guard and the guard just about fell over. It was a riot.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Another thing they did, they were practical jokers. Another thing they did there to the going off shift, I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">observe this, but I heard about it. An instrument tech, they were getting ready to go off shift and they called up at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the badge house and said, we're going to flush the phone lines. And we want you to unhook your phone, take</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">your phone off and just hold it while we flush the lines.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And so he did that and they took some air nozzle and made some noises. It sounded like flushing noise</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. And then</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">he went up to check out to catch the bus and they really ribbed that guard. What in the world are you doing on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">phone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, they had him put it in the basket. They had him put it in the wastebasket. What are you doing in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">wastebasket? Practical jokes like that. There are so many of them </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">so</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> good to think about.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and experiences. I appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It was my pleasure. I am hopeful and I'm sure that what you're doing will be very educational and important to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">your students over the coming years. So I want to thank you for doing this work.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, I'm glad to be a part of it. Thanks again.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">M</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Copeland
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Copeland was an instrument engineer on the Hanford Site from 1947-1987. <br /><br />An interview with Harold Copeland conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
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Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Nuclear instruments & methods
Nuclear weapons--History.
Nuclear weapons industry
Nuclear weapons industry--United States--Employees.
Nuclear weapons plants
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created - DMO
2016-07-08: Metadata v1 created -[J.G.]
Date
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8/6/2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
1100 Building
184 Building
184 steam power plants
200 Area
221-T
3000 Area
Cheney (Wash.)
Chernobyl Nuclear Accident
Dash-5 Building
General Electric
Hanford Site (Wash.)
N Reactor
Nuclear waste disposal
Plutonium Finishing Plant
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)
Running
Secrecy
T Plant
United Nuclear Corporation
United States. Bureau of Reclamation