1
50
34
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fffc8aebac24a7c9b5402829e887f874a.jpg
032b6392c1db590471fb518833571673
Dublin Core
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Title
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Community Photograph Collections
Subject
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History of Hanford and the Tri-Cities area
Description
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Photographs donated by the community to the Hanford History Project
Publisher
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Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Language
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English
Abstract
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The Community Collections of the Hanford History Project have been graciously donated by community members for preservation and research use. Many of these are collections that were donated to the former Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology (CREHST) and transferred to WSU Tri-Cities in 2014.
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[Item ID], Community Collections, Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Still Image
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Original Format
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Photo
Physical Dimensions
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20.8 x 24.2 cm
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Title
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200 Area Processing Canyon
Subject
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Aerial views; Buildings; Fences; 200 Area
Description
An account of the resource
"1 photograph; 20.8 x 24.2 cm.
Canyon building on Hanford Site used for Chemical Processing. Text on the back of photo reads: "This separation plant at Hanford Works is called the Canyon building. The thick-walled, concrete structure is about 800 feet long."
Publisher
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Hanford History Project, Washington State University Tri-Cities
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For permission to publish please contact Washington State University Tri-Cities' Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447.
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image/ tif
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none
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RG1D_4B_1000
Date Accepted
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2017-06-20
Date Submitted
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2019-01-14
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For permission to publish please contact Washington State University Tri-Cities' Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447.
200 Area
Aerial views
Buildings
Fences
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F90d54a5a9837fe9b43e6690103af02d6.JPG
9169c15b4493b42c01ad4b597f76b831
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8d3e66c137874c342df2cbfdcec381f5.mp4
e48c0d6128bcde0bbba8a20ce7f31cef
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
William Tyler
Location
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Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Tyler_William</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Now you can give it right back to her?</p>
<p>William Tyler: Yeah, I plan on it.</p>
<p>Man One: Exactly. All right, get this off your face there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Does your daughter live here in Richland?</p>
<p>Tyler: She lives right across the street from me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, does she? Oh, there you go. Well, you can really give it to her then. [LAUGHTER] She can't avoid you.</p>
<p>Tyler: Well in fact, we work together at HAMMER.</p>
<p>Man one: I’m rolling.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. Well I think we're ready to get started. So let's start by having you say your name and also spell it for us.</p>
<p>Tyler: My name is William T. Tyler. W-I-L-L-I-A-M, T, T-Y-L-E-R.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you go by Bill?</p>
<p>Tyler: Bill, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. And today's date is August 28<sup>th</sup> of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we can, by maybe having you talk about what brought you to the area. When did you come to work at Hanford, and what brought you here?</p>
<p>Tyler: We came out here on vacation from Oklahoma in 1947 to see my dad's brothers and sisters. And we were going to stay for a week or so. And my dad applied for a job here and got it, and we stayed. I thought it was the end of the world. This was not a pretty place in 1947. But I went in the Navy in 1950, got into the nuclear program and came out here in 1955. Went to work at Hanford. Worked as an HPT until '82, I believe. And then I went into management in health physics.</p>
<p>Bauman: So HPT, you mean health physics technician. Is that was HPT is?</p>
<p>Tyler: Uh-huh. Sorry.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's okay. So how old were in 1947 when you came on vacation?</p>
<p>Tyler: I think I was 15.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. What sort of job did your father get?</p>
<p>Tyler: He worked in transportation.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you already had aunts and uncles who came here?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you said you thought this was the end of the world. What do you mean by that? What are your first impressions of the place?</p>
<p>Tyler: [LAUGHTER] Well, my first impression is we got here July the 5th. And my aunt and uncle had a little cafe on downtown Kennewick, on Kennewick Avenue. And it was about 104 degrees out. And we were driving down the street looking for it. And my dad says, man, I wouldn't live here if it's the last place in the world. And back then there was not a lot of trees. There was in Kennewick, and a few in Richland. But every time the wind blew, it was dusty and the tumbleweeds flew, and a lot of dust storms. In fact, they call them termination winds. Because everything was booming out in Hanford and every time the wind blew, people didn't like that and they'd just pick up and quit. So they called it termination winds.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you know when your aunt and uncles came here?</p>
<p>Tyler: My aunt was born here in Kennewick. My uncle came out here in '37, '38, somewhere along that area.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay, so you'd had relatives here before the Hanford site.</p>
<p>Tyler: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so when your family first came in 1947 and you dad got the job and stayed here, where did you live?</p>
<p>Tyler: We lived in Kennewick for a year. And then we got a house in Richland in 1948 at 635 Basswood.</p>
<p>Bauman: That was a government home then?</p>
<p>Tyler: Uh-huh. It was ranch house. And we moved in Thanksgiving Day of '48. And my future wife moved in next door the same day. I didn't know that was my future wife, but it turned out to be. And I still live on Basswood. Different house, but--</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you go to high school here then?</p>
<p>Tyler: I went to Kennewick. I started in Kennewick because that's where we lived and I didn't want to transfer. So I rode the intercity bus every day to Kennewick and back. I graduated in 1950 and then somebody in Washington wanted me to join their services. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So how would you describe, outside of your first impression, how would you describe the community of Richland in late '40s, early 1950s?</p>
<p>Tyler: It actually—it was a very good place to live. I didn't realize it at the time. It was smaller, much smaller--probably 5,000 people in each of the cities. It was a good place to live if you could ignore the wind blowing and the dust storms and that sort of thing. But it kind of grows on you. I know I wouldn't live anywhere else.</p>
<p>Bauman: In those early years when you were here in the '40s and '50s, do you remember any particular community events that stand out in your mind?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, Atomic Frontier Days, the Grape Festival in Kennewick, and then the fair. Nothing big or spectacular, but it was something to do.</p>
<p>Bauman: Can you describe Atomic Frontier Days a little bit? What sorts of things--</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, normally they had a queen and a parade of course. And it was just kind of a—I don't know how--just a parade and kind of a get together type thing for the people that lived here.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let's talk about your work a little bit now. You said you started working in '55.</p>
<p>Tyler: ’55.</p>
<p>Bauman: So can you talk about who you worked for at time and a little bit more detail about what sorts of work you did? What area of the Hanford site you worked in?</p>
<p>Tyler: Okay, I started February the 22<sup>nd</sup>, 1955. And my first work assignment was 200 West Area tank farms. And then I went up to the REDOX facility which was a separations facility. A couple months later, then I went to U Plant. And then I went to T Plant, which were all separation facilities. And then I went over to PUREX in December of 1955. That was prior to startup. We started up our first spiked run was I think March or April of '56. And I worked there until '62 I believe. When I worked there, we also was switched with the 100 Area HPTs, or RCTs, or radiation monitors for exposure reasons. Because they got a lot more exposure than we did, so we would switch with them. And I got to work in all the 100 Area reactors except N when they were running, and some of the 300 Area.</p>
<p>Bauman: So just about everywhere?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, I worked basically in every facility out here except 234-5.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so was GE the contractor? What contractor did you work for?</p>
<p>Tyler: GE. They were the prime contractor. And they left here in '66 I believe. Then Rockwell and Westinghouse and Fluor Daniel and MSA.</p>
<p>Bauman: So as a health physics technician, what exactly did that mean? What sorts of things did you do on a daily basis?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well as you know, there was a lot of contamination, radiation. And our job was to set the dose rates if people were going into a radiation area. We would go in, set the dose rates, stay with them. Got to make sure that the dose rates didn't increase while they were in there. We surveyed them out when they were done with the GMs and alpha detectors to make sure they didn't take any contamination home with them. And that was our prime responsibility. We maintain control of personnel exposure rates and their contamination, if they had any, and made sure that everything was as clean as we could get it. That's the short and sweet version.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. And you did that, obviously, at all these different areas you worked at on the site?</p>
<p>Tyler: Everywhere, inside, outside, burial grounds.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there ever any incidents while you were doing this where people did have excessive exposure or anything along those lines?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, there was a lot of them. When GE came here--well, they were the prime contractor. Back in those days, you really couldn't talk about your job. You could say that you worked at Hanford and that was pretty much it. But yes, there was a lot of good memories and bad memories. Some really high exposure rates almost on a daily basis, because everything was running. And what will go wrong probably does. And it was very interesting work. It was something different every day. It's the kind of job that you look forward to doing and working. I did. I really enjoyed it.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what was the process or procedure if someone had an overexposure?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, you had your dosimetry, which—Battelle read that. So you know what they got. And that's the record that's with you forever. At that time I think we worked--[PHONE RINGING] Shit. We worked under a 50 millirem per day limits, or 300 a week. And sometimes you would exceed that. But we were issued dosimetry everyday when we came to work. And you had a film badge which was read I think once a month. But they kept a running record of your exposure. That's why when we, when 100 Area radiation monitor--[PHONE RINGING] Hello. Can I call you back, Ian? Okay, thanks. Sorry. I don't know how to turn it off.</p>
<p>Bauman: So we're talking about the dosimeter--</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, they kept records of all your exposures. And then every month they would send you a copy or let you know what it was. But if before the end of the year was out, if you were running short of exposure, then they would transfer people--particularly the radiation monitors--to different areas. And they what they were doing was using our exposure instead of--and letting their people cool down a little bit. It was just a way of equalizing the dose rates to the personnel. And it worked good in theory. And there was some--and I probably shouldn't say this—but there was some little minor ripples in the water, because people accused the other people of hanging back and now I got to come save you, that sort of thing. But it was all in fun. Everybody knew how serious the job was. And that was just part of their job.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long did you work as a health physics technician then?</p>
<p>Tyler: I think until 1982 and I went into management in health physics. At that time, they called us managers. And I was the manager of East tank farms until 1988. And then I transferred over to the West Area environmental group and took that over. My responsibilities were all of the outside radiation contamination areas. Burial sites. '89 I retired. Came back three months later and went to work in the environmental restoration part-time. And I did that until 1995. And then when Bechtel came in, I left there and went back to health physics side and become a evaluator at HAMMER for radiation protection, which I still do.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you still work for--</p>
<p>Tyler: Two to three days a week.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you mentioned earlier the sort of secrecy of some aspects of Hanford. Obviously secrecy, security were a very important part of. I wonder if you could discuss that at all, any ways that impacted your work?</p>
<p>Tyler: GE had a very rigid plan of how they wanted things to go. And security of course was top secret. If you went—and a few people did--they go down and have a beer at the bar and they get to talking. And you never know who you're talking to you. And there was cases where people didn't have a job the next morning. Because security would overhear them. And you were pretty much done. So people didn't talk about their job. They didn't even talk about it with their family. Security was very strict. When you—well, for instance, when you go to work in the morning or if you're on shifts, same thing. You would catch the bus at the bus lot. Get on the bus, go through the barricade at the Y. If I was going to PUREX, we'd go up, pull in to the front gate of PUREX. You'd get out, off the bus. Go through the badge house. Pick up your dosimetry. Go out. Get back on the bus. The bus would pull inside the gate. Get back on the bus. Go down to PUREX. Get off the bus. Go through their badge house. And they would check your lunch bucket and all that. And then go into the building. And then in the evening, just reverse that process and back out again. So they were very strict. If you drove your car, you could not drive it past the main gate of East Area. You parked outside. And when you could drive inside, security would check the glovebox and the trunk and whatever was in the car. So it was very regimented.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you about, in 1963 President Kennedy visited for the opening of the N reactor. I wondered if you were there and have any memories of that event at all?</p>
<p>Tyler: I was not there because I was on shift at that day, or I probably would have been.</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hm. Obviously, one of things that happened with Hanford is the shift from focus on production to focus on clean up. And I wonder if that shift impacted your work in any way?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yes. Like I said before, I was the manager of East tank farms. And my office was at Semi Works, which is in 200 East Area, which was a pilot plant for PUREX. Semi Works was running. We were doing strontium cesium runs. But then when the edict came out that we were going to phase out and clean up, one of the first facilities--well I think it was the first facility—that we started tearing down was Semi Works. And D&D did the work. But we shut it all down and demolished the building and just imploded it in place. Built a dirt berm over it, cleaned it up. Most of the cells and the tanks are still in place, but they're full of grout. And then there's concrete over it. And what we did was tear down—this was approximately a three-story building with three stories underground. So when we tore down the building—it had a lot of piping and columns—we tore down the building and left the west wall standing. And we filled everything we could get inside like the basement and concreted it in place. And then we undercut the west wall. And this is probably four foot thick. And got a couple of Caterpillars and chains and hooked it over the top of the west wall. Pulled it down over like a lid. And then dirt berm over it, and there it is. And the stack that was there—the exhaust, the big stack—they imploded that and laid her right alongside the building. One guy did that. We deconned it first, and he came in, and a dynamite expert told us where we was going to put the stack and put a stick out on the end in the ground like they do now on the TV. And laid that stack right down on that stick, all by himself. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So that definitely did make for significant changes then, the shift from production?</p>
<p>Tyler: Very significant, because that was kind of pilot test for all the other anticipated deconning and decommissioning they we're going to do, which is still going on.</p>
<p>Bauman: Let's shift now and talk a little bit about HAPO. I wonder--I know you've been involved with them quite often. I wonder if you can talk about your involvement when you became involved in HAPO and how that came about?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well let's see. First, HAPO was a GE acronym which stands for Hanford Atomic Products Operations, which was the name of GE's part of this. GESA, which is another credit union down the street, was the General Electric Supervisors Association. GE was very particular about their managers or supervisors were a step above the blue collar worker. And I think they still maintain that. If you were a supervisor, it's white shirt and tie. And you don't fraternize with--So when the credit committee wanted to get started, that's the name they chose, just HAPO. And it's '53. And I was looking at one of the early--the record book. And I think there's five or six of the charter members of the first—that I worked with that were radiation monitors just like I was. But I never joined HAPO until my wife was--she likes C First. And I never joined HAPO until I think '71. And then a friend of mine that I worked with talked me into getting on the committee that approved loans, credit committee, which I did. And then I got invited later to go on the board of directors and got voted in and been there ever since. I really enjoyed it. It's a great credit union.</p>
<p>Bauman: So is it the board of directors then, primarily is it either current or former Hanford employees?</p>
<p>Tyler: No. It used to be when we were federal, you had to work out here to join HAPO. And then they relinquished or changed the bylaws so that anybody could join HAPO. If you give them $5 and signed up, you were a member for life. But initially it was you had to work here to join.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you said you didn't join until '71. What led you to decide to join at that point?</p>
<p>Tyler: The guy I carpool with, one of them, convinced me that I should do that. [LAUGHTER] And I didn't like C First. I never did like C First. But my wife liked them because you got at the end of the month, you got all of your checks back. And she liked that. But I joined HAPO and started my own checking account. And then she finally joined shortly after I did. And now the rest is history. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So, I know you weren't part of the formation of the credit union. But I wonder if you can talk about it a little more? If you know more, were the employee unions at Hanford involved in the credit union, establishing that?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: And anything you can talk about that?</p>
<p>Tyler: Helen Van Patten was one. GESA started it first. And then the blue collars said well, we got to have one of those. The first store was down by the Spudnut Shop. I think we had one or two employees. And everything was in a ledger, handwritten. Joe Blow borrowed $25. It was very basic. But fortunately, it kept growing and membership increased.</p>
<p>Bauman: So the unions saw it as a way to provide credit union opportunities--</p>
<p>Tyler: Right.</p>
<p>Bauman:--for blue collar workers or laborers or whatever? Okay. So I want to—going back to your work at Hanford, what are some of the more challenging aspects of your work, and maybe some more rewarding aspects of your work?</p>
<p>Tyler: That’s a good question. Probably one of the most challenging was the responsibility when you're out on a hot job where the contamination levels are great and the radiation levels are great, and you have a whole crew of people. It challenges you to--it's always in the back of your mind that something's going to happen and I'm not going to see it, or I'm not going to catch it. And somebody's going to get overexposed. And that's always in the back of your mind. Because--and I have to beat my own drum here for a bit—radiation monitoring and health physics now, whatever they are, it's a very challenging job. You're responsible for--you're taking care of people. And they trust you. And they expect you to look out for them. And it's a lot of responsibility, but most everybody accepts that gladly, because they know how important it is. Because you're responsible for--you could get somebody really overexposed, and who knows what the consequences are? As far as rewards for that, I think is the satisfaction of when the job is done, that you knew you did your best job. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got overexposed. Nobody got contaminated. And the job got done.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there any events or incidents or anything, sort of unique things that happened during your time working at Hanford that sort of really stands out to you?</p>
<p>Tyler: When I first hired in, like I said, I went to REDOX. One of the problems they had shortly before I got here was they had a ruthenium—they ran some ruthenium and they played it out in the stack. And then it broke loose. And it kind of went out in the desert and on the ground. And you had ruthenium chunks of—it looked like white paper that built up on the inside the stack and then finally broke loose and fluttered out and went everywhere. And one of my first jobs with a GM and a walking stick was walking out through the desert and finding these things. Little specks, big specks, didn't have any trouble finding them. [LAUGHTER] They were very hot. And I remember we used the KOA cans from T Plant, which were little round cans, metal cans about that big around, about this high with a snap-on lid. And that's what we put them in, with dirt for shielding. And then buried them. But there's been a lot of incidents of hot burials from PUREX. I remember some where we used a burial string. We used a locomotive, a whole bunch of flat cars. And then at that time, they'd build big wooden boxes. And I recall one big one that had enough lumber in it to build two B houses. Huge—it sat on two flat cars. And we put it in, and we took readings over the top of the tunnel as it went out of the tunnel towards the burial ground. And it read greater than 500 R. And as you know, 500 R for an hour is a lethal dose rate to 50% of the people, 60%. And then you go down the railroad track behind B Plant, pull it across the highway which patrol barricaded the road. So you pull the string across the road and then back it into the burial ground. And then you had to sink—this box was built on skids. And a big long steel cable lay on another flat car, three or four flat cars away from it. So you would pull that. And you would pull it down into a burial trench. And the Cat would be down there ready. And the train would back up and they would grab that cable, put the eye on. Hook it to the Cat. And then the Cat skinner would pull the cable off. And the train would move up until the boxes sit here and the cables here. And the Cat's down here pulling. And then we'd get up to the--and there was a dock where you could slide it off. And you would turn that box and pull it in. Pull it down into the trench, down to the other end, wherever you wanted it. Unhook the Cat. Leave it. Pull the Cat out. And then they would backfill that box. And that's the way they did the burials. And it worked great except when the box collapsed unexpectedly.</p>
<p>Bauman: Then not so great.</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, that's not a good--that happened once or twice.</p>
<p>Bauman: During your years working out there, were you ever concerned about your own safety, health, protection, in any way?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well as stupid as it may sound, no. I never was. Because I always figured I knew what I was doing. And I received some very good training in the Navy, which helped. But I never worried about it. I always trusted me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were you a member of a union when you were working at Hanford? And what union was that? And I guess, what sort of relationship did the union have with management here at Hanford during the time you were here?</p>
<p>Tyler: Good and bad. [LAUGHTER] I used to be chief steward for the radiation monitors. I went through two negotiations. And after the last one, I decided I didn't want any more of that. Chief steward's a thankless job, but somebody's got to do it.</p>
<p>Bauman: What does that mean exactly? What—chief steward--</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, you're the union rep plant wide for all of the HPTs. And I had this grandiose idea that I could just change everything. It's a great idea, but it doesn't work. It's a job that somebody has to do. And it's a job that is thankless. Because somebody's always mad at you. Whatever you do, in some of the people's eyes, you could always do better. And it's just not a good job. [LAUGHTER] But I enjoyed it. You learn a lot. And you learn both sides of the fence--how the company thinks and how the union thinks. And then you try and compromise.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there ever any times you were here where there was a strike or any sort of--</p>
<p>Tyler: Two--'66 and '76.</p>
<p>Bauman: And were those sort of across the site?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yep. And in '66, after we settled the '66 strike, GE left.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was that one of the reasons they left?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, well, they had planned to leave. And then that's when--because when GE was here, they were the only contractor. And then when they left, they kind of broke it up into the 200 Areas and the 100 Areas. And it's always been different contractors, not just one prime contractor.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember what some of the key issues were in '66 and '76 in terms of--</p>
<p>Tyler: Wages. Wages were always the key issue. Well, I take that back. '66 or '76 was, they were going to do away with the buses. And that was a key issue for everybody. It didn't happen, but it was a--that was when they spent all the money redoing the bus lot. And then a couple years later, they did away with the buses anyway. But we did get air conditioned buses. Before we had old buses, the old green buses. Well like the ones sitting down at--</p>
<p>Bauman: The CREHST Museum?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah. Those were some of the newer ones. The older ones were international buses that looked like a truck. Cold in the winter and hot in the summer. But they worked. When they did away with the buses, see, that did away with a lot of jobs in the bus lot. Maintenance, everything there, which was a lot of people.</p>
<p>Bauman: So part of that was about jobs and issues of transportation?</p>
<p>Tyler: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Bauman: Anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or that you think we should talk about?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, we've covered pretty much every--well, we've covered pretty much everything I think. I don't really know what you're looking for.</p>
<p>Bauman: Just your experience. That's why I wonder if there's something that you experienced some event or something that I haven't asked you about yet that you think would be important to—</p>
<p>Tyler: Well. When I retired, I took the first early out and then got bored to death and came back. When I was in the environmental group in West Area, a good friend of mine was an environmental manager outside the site. But he talked me into coming back part time and become a waste shipper and a waste handler. Which was--I'd never done it. I knew what it was. But I finally relented. I enjoyed it. It's entirely different. Because I was kind of burned out on radiation protection, and I wanted to do something different. Didn't want to retire, but I wanted to do something different. So I went to the classes and become a certified waste shipper and a waste handler. And we took care of all of the sites outside of 200 East, 200 West. All the burial sites, all the drilling sides, the river, pretty much everything. And it was very interesting. Until '95, when I decided I didn't like the contractor. [LAUGHTER] And I went back to health physics.</p>
<p>Bauman: Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Obviously most of your career, the Cold War was going on during most of the time you were working at Hanford. So I'm wondering what you think would be important for young people today and people in future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War?</p>
<p>Tyler: I'm trying to remember. We had the strike in '66. And there was almost another strike four or five years later. In fact midnight was the deadline when we were supposed to go on strike. And at 11:30, we got a notification that the President had put a stop to the strike because of the situation with the Cold War thing. And I think that's the first and the last time that ever happened. But as far as--</p>
<p>Bauman: So then about 1970 or so?</p>
<p>Tyler: Early, yeah, '71 or '72 maybe. No, it was before that, because I was still on shift. It was probably '68, '69 maybe. But as far as the Cold War, it's still going on in different forms—my personal opinion. You look back at history--and I've lived through a lot of it--nothing has really changed. Like what's going on now, and the Bible says there'll be war and rumors of war. And that's correct. Because whatever our President does—whatever he does is going to be wrong in a lot of people's eyes. It's kind of like if you don't do it, you should have. And if you do do it, you shouldn't have. [LAUGHTER] It's a different type of cold war. Instead of—we used to worry about Russia. And I'm not too sure that—maybe we should still be worrying about Russia and a lot of other countries that--Things have changed. But they haven't—the basic things that caused the Cold War hasn't changed. There's all kind of weapons. I don't know.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. I think that's all the questions I have for you.</p>
<p>Tyler: Okay.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to thank you for coming in today.</p>
<p>Tyler: Thank you for having me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Pleasure to talk to you.</p>
<p>Tyler: Good.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:47:27
Bit Rate/Frequency
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244 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
2-East Area
200 Area
200 East Area
300 Area
B Plant
K-West Area
T Plant
U Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1947-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1955-still working
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Helen Van Patten
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Tyler
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with William Tyler conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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08-28-2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2018-6-2: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
1955
2-East Area
200 Area
200 East
200 East Area
200 West Area
300 Area
B Plant
Battelle
Bechtel
Cat
Cold War
General Electric
HAMMER
Hanford
K-West Area
Kennedy
Kennewick
PUREX
T Plant
U Plant
War
Westinghouse
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3709e8204c8899a93c9c81308951a94c.JPG
84a45b395471c72ce61c06a25b1e3919
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Lawrence
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Michael Lawrence on February 1<sup>st</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Mike about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Michael Lawrence: Michael J. Lawrence. L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you. So, how did you come to the Hanford Site?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I went—I grew up in Washington, DC. I was born and raised in Washington, DC, and I went to the University of Maryland and lived at home when I did so. And I was a physics major. Between my junior and senior year of college, I was fortunate enough to get one of five internships at the Atomic Energy Commission. That internship had me working in a division of the AEC, or Atomic Energy Commission, called the production division, which was responsible for, among other sites, the Hanford Site, because of its production of plutonium. During that summer, I actually shared an office with an individual who was responsible for the operations and missions of the N Reactor which was located here. So I had an opportunity to learn a little bit about Hanford at that particular point in time. When I graduated from Maryland with my degree in physics the next year, I had already been offered and had accepted a full-time job with the Atomic Energy Commission when I went back to the production division again to work. I was working on isotopes programs and other things when I was called into the director’s office one day. It just so happened that several years previously, in 1969 I believe, President Nixon had signed the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA, and one of the provisions in NEPA called for something which, at that point in time, was not known at all. Something called an environmental impact statement. You had to do environmental impact statements for any major federal projects, and our division was responsible for two projects that were going to occur in the early ‘70s here. One was the design and building of the quite a bit. And also had a sense of what it was going to be involved dealing with the public on important and issues that were of concern to the public, like the Z-9 crib and plutonium production. Because one of our hearings for those environmental impact statements was held down in Portland. And I can recall going down there, and there were demonstrators in radiation contamination clothing protesting and all the rest. And you got a chance to see just how the public felt about it. But that was my first instance of dealing with Hanford. Then later in the mid-‘70s—again, I’m still back in Washington, DC; AEC had become the Department of Energy—and I was responsible for a program to manage and store commercial spent nuclear fuel. And that program, the contractor and site that was helping us out was the Savannah River site in South Carolina. But because of the heavy burden they had, I decided it would be best if we changed the management of that program, or the contractor working on the program from Savannah River to the Hanford Site and to the Pacific Northwest National Lab—at that time was Pacific Northwest Lab; it wasn’t a national lab, but PNL. And so I started coming out again and working with the people here. So I had a pretty good understanding of the community and what was out here, and I liked it. But in the early 1980s, in 1982 to be exact, after several years of very, very intense negotiation back in the halls of Congress, the Nuclear Waste Policy Act was passed by Congress which set up a process and legal requirements for identifying, selecting, licensing, building, operating, and funding a geologic repository for commercial nuclear waste from commercial reactors and defense waste from the production of plutonium, primarily either at Hanford or at the Savannah River plant. I was one of several people called down from where I was working in Germantown, Maryland, down to Washington, DC to work on the direct implementation of that act. Obviously, that was a very—it was controversial, it was huge, and the new Secretary of Energy at that time—his name was Donald Hodel, who had formerly been the administrator of Bonneville out here in the Pacific Northwest—he was very familiar with the issues involved. And I got an opportunity to meet and work with him rather closely. And after several years of doing that, he asked me to come out here to be the manager of the Richland Operations Office.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. Thank you. That’s really fascinating, with all of your lengths between DC and to here. Did you—I want to ask—you mentioned a hearing in Portland where there were demonstrators. And that—I think it fits pretty well into what we hear a lot about how the west side and the east side of the state think about Hanford. Did you find a pretty supportive public here in Tri-Cities when you would come and hold meetings here in the area about, like, for example the Z-9 crib or other projects? Did you find a pretty supportive public?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I wouldn’t use the term supportive, I would use the term very informed and knowledgeable. They understood, to a greater degree, what the risks, what the concerns were, what the precautions were. Not universally, obviously. There were—and I have a good example of what a protestor would be. But basically, they seemed to be more informed, and certainly they were more knowledgeable of the situation. So the further away you went, the less direct knowledge people had of the situation. And so consequently—and it’s understandable, you know, they really didn’t have the same—they didn’t know people who worked at the Site. They didn’t—couldn’t appreciate the values that they had, their sensitivities. So that would be more the way I would describe it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Lawrence: What was interesting, and I just had alluded to, was after coming out here—this was in 1984; I came—arrived in July of 1984. And at the beginning of that year was when the PUREX Plant, which processed the fuel coming out of N Reactor and reprocessed it to recover the plutonium, had just gone back into operation after a number of years of being mothballed. This was all part of President Reagan’s buildup of our military strength and weapons complex to more or less challenge the Russians or the Soviet Union in their ability to do so. And so we were gearing back up, really, the plutonium production mission at the Hanford Site. It was obviously very controversial here in the Northwest. And it was just starting up, and there had actually been a leak from the PUREX Plant right after it started up. And what I found when I arrived here in July was that even though the people on the Site—the contractor and the officials here—were saying, no, this is what it was and this is what the effects were. There was very little credibility. People would not believe them. And there was a strong opposition to what they were doing. That was a challenging situation to walk into where you really don’t have any credibility. But the first week I was in town, first week as manager, down in my office in the Federal Building, which is up in the northeast corner of the Federal Building, seventh floor, looking out over John Dam Plaza and the park, and I looked out on the street, and there’s a person with a big sign and billboard saying, Mike Lawrence, carpetbagger, go home. And he’s just sitting on the park bench in front of the building. And I—you know, I’ve just arrived in town, and I’m looking at him. His name was Larry Caldwell. He was known to everybody in town; he liked to protest. And I’m looking down at him and I—I sort of like to engage. I don’t like to ignore things. So I said, you know, I think I’ll go out and talk to him. Well, that caused quite a stir. But I walked down and walked across the street, walked up to the park bench, introduced myself, sat down and we started talking. I wanted to find out, well, since you don’t know me, why do you call me a carpetbagger, why do you want me to go home? Let’s talk. And it was funny because in the midst of discussing this with him, I happened to glance back over. And if you’re familiar with the Federal Building, it’s just full of windows. Every window was filled with faces looking out. [LAUGHTER] They said, this is our new manager and he’s out there. Security was very concerned. But you know? It worked out fine. Larry told me what his problems were. He didn’t like the mission. I told him, I said, I understood that. I had a job to do; Congress had appropriated the money, and I’d been given a job to do, and I was going to do it the best I could. But I was going to do it trying to do it in keeping the public informed of what we were doing and being as upfront and—now the term is transparent. We didn’t use that term back then—but as transparent I could be in handling it. So that was my first direct encounter with a protestor, if you will. But I thought it turned out pretty well. But that gets to a broader topic that I’d like to address, and that is, as I said, the Department and its contractors, I found they didn’t have credibility. And I’m not saying it was anyone’s fault, but it’s my opinion that it’s very easy for organizations—Department of Energy, Richland, Hanford—to lose credibility. And the only way you regain that credibility is through individuals, by really engaging with people so they get a sense of who you are or who the people are doing the work. And so we tried from the very beginning back in 1984 to go out and to meet with the public, to engage the public, to be as open as we could to explain our perspective and what we were doing. Obviously, we didn’t expect everyone to agree with us; some people were just diametrically opposed to it. But you’d like them to at least sense that the people doing the work shared some of their values, shared their concerns, in doing their work. The best example I have of that is—I believe it was in 1985. Again, Hanford, because of our role going back into the nuclear weapons complex had been quite controversial. I received a call from the pastor of the Catholic church down in Kennewick, St. Joseph’s. And he said, Mike, I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but the three bishops—Catholic bishops—in Washington State are having prepared a letter—very, very critical of Hanford, its operations, and the people who work there. And he said, I just think that it’s being, I guess—a focal point was being headed up by a person in Yakima where the bishop was a Bishop William Skylstad. And I happened to have met and knew Bishop Skylstad from my own personal dealings with the church. And so I thanked the priest in Kennewick, and I called up Bishop Skylstad, and I said, I’d really like to come—I understand you’re having some work done on behalf of yourself and the other two bishops, and I’d like to really come and talk to you about it. And so I actually took the president of Rockwell Hanford, who operated PUREX, his name was Paul Lorenzini—very, very intelligent, smart guy—with me. And we went to meet with Bishop Skylstad and he had the individual who was writing this who happened also to be a member of the Hanford Education Action League in Spokane. And, you know, I read what they had prepared. It was talking about the Department of Energy is lying about this, and they’re poisoning, and they’re making these intentional releases. And in discussing that, after a while, Bishop Skylstad said to me, he said, Mike, Mike, calm down. He says, you’re taking this personally. And I looked at him and I said, Bishop, of course I’m taking it personally. When you say the Department of Energy is lying, who is that? Who is it that you’re saying is lying? And it was amazing, because he just stopped; all of a sudden, it dawned on him. He said, oh my goodness, I never thought of it that way. But you had to put a face in front of the organization. And that helped a lot. Now, the letter still came out and it was still very critical. But it wasn’t as accusatory as perhaps it was. It says, we’re opposed to the mission. That’s fine; that I understand. But when you get into the motives and the ill will of the people, that’s where it goes a little too far.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm. Right. The difference between unintentional or passive action and then direct action.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about what it was like in the early ‘70s to actually—to physically get to Hanford from Washington, DC. Was it still very—was travel still kind of tough to get to Hanford? Or was there easy air travel or car travel? Or did you find it to be a little still off the beaten path?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, it was a lengthy trip. Coming from Washington, DC, I would fly from Washington, DC to Chicago, Chicago to Seattle, then Seattle to Pasco. And usually that was like going United, and then I think there was—it was called Airwest—Hughes Airwest, owned by Howard Hughes. Then it did get significantly easier later on when Northwest Airlines had a direct flight from Dulles Airport in DC to Seattle, and then you’d fly back over here. I always used to enjoy those trips. I mean, air travel was a lot different then than it was now in that it wasn’t as—a chore and the like. It was a little bit more creature comforts in traveling as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: When you mentioned NEPA and the need for the EIS, Environmental Impact Statement, and digging at Z-9 and I’m sure probably a couple other facilities—did that also trigger any kind of cultural resources work, archaeological digs? Were there ever any—was there any cultural resources work or things found?</p>
<p>Lawrence: In the ‘70s, no. I mean, that work was right in the middle of the 200 Area. Which is—it still today is the most concentrated area. I believe, if I recall correctly, the EISs probably said—would address that. But not—I mean, EISs then were maybe 100 pages long. Now they’re—[LAUGHTER]—multiple volumes and many thousands of pages long. But I wasn’t aware of any. I think the first real instance of dealing with Native Americans and their concerns was with a project we had on the center of the Site called the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, or BWIP, which was on Gable--</p>
<p>Franklin: I was going to ask you about that next.</p>
<p>Lawrence: --which was on Gable Mountain. But I’ll let you ask about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, no, I was going to ask if you—you talked about the Nuclear Waste Policy Act and finding a geological repository. And I was just going to ask, I assume that’s BWIP, then, that is the—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, and, actually there’s a slight difference there. But the whole idea of the geologic repository, especially since I had been responsible for that program before coming here, led people to suspect or conclude that it was a foregone conclusion that Hanford was going to be named the geologic repository for the United States. And actually, when I came here, that Nuclear Waste Policy Act had set out a process for narrowing down until you had three sites that you would thoroughly characterize. We had gone from nine sites to five, and when I came out here, there were five sites under consideration. Once I was here, it was narrowed down to the three finalists, if you will: Hanford for basalt, Nevada for tuffs—that’s the Yucca Mountain Site—and in Texas there was a salt formation called Deaf Smith County. And so that was being looked at. Now, BWIP itself was not the geologic repository site. It was a test facility built into Gable Mountain—and Gable Mountain, of course, rises up and the geologic repository was going to go down several thousand feet. But it allowed the scientists to put heaters into basalt rock to see how the rock responded to it—expansion, contraction, did it attract water, was it pushed away, and the like. It was actually a quite successful project. We learned quite a bit about how basalt rock would interact. However—getting back to the cultural resources—during that period, we also found out that the Native Americans—the Yakamas, I believe—used to use Gable Mountain for vision-quest-type activities and places to send people on a spiritual adventure. This didn’t happen right away, but we finally worked out—because I saw no reason why we couldn’t—with a day’s notice, we let the Yakamas—we said, we will let you come on and go up to the site, and do whatever ceremonies, to do whatever you want to do. We just need to know about it. Obviously there is physical security and there’s safety we had to provide for them. But I think we were able to work out and arrangement with the Yakamas where they would have access. Perhaps not as freely as they would like, but it did allow some compromise to be worked out so they could still perform some of their religious ceremonies there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. So you came—you arrived in July 1984, you said. And that was kind of—that was under this Reagan era mandate of basically restarting production.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because it had just been N Reactor through most of the ‘70s, correct, and into the early ‘80s. So I’m wondering if you can just elaborate more on that mission and some of the activities needed and the push back—if there was any push back—and the whole thing.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, there was opposition, particularly on the west side and in Portland to restarting plutonium production facilities. While N Reactor had continued to operate, the fuel had not been processed and plutonium had not been recovered in many instances until PUREX started back up. So that was the process of really then getting back into plutonium production. That’s what was leading to opposition to what we were doing. We did the best we could to try to go around and to explain at least what we were doing, how we were doing it, how we would interact. I can recall going with my wife to a meeting up in Spokane. I just went up on a weekday night and the Hanford Education Action League had asked me to come up and talk to them. It was clear. It was clear then, that there was very, very strong opposition to what we were doing. A person I remember asked me the question, did I realize that I was acting just like Hitler? [LAUGHTER] I said, you know, I don’t think of it that way. I think about what I do very seriously, and I’m doing something that’s approved by and funded by the government of the United States of America, from the President and the Congress. I have to do it safely, and I have to do it in accordance with the law, but that’s what needs to be done. But, again, it was another effort to try to get out and at least be present, answer the questions; you may not make them happy, but at least you know you’re there trying to interact.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so how many facilities ended up being restarted or brought online from when you got here to when things were shut down? Maybe you could kind of walk me through that process.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, as I indicated, N Reactor had continued to operate, because N Reactor, unlike the other production reactors that were at Savannah River, was a dual purpose reactor. It not only produced plutonium in the fuel elements, but the water which passed through the reactors for cooling it was then sent over to a facility operated by the Washington Public Power Supply System to turn turbines and to produce electricity, on the order of a gigawatt of electricity a year. And because of that, we needed to—the cycle of the N Reactor was different than other production reactors: it was on a shorter cycle. That was for production reasons, the type of plutonium we were producing. So N Reactor went from producing what was fuel grade—it was called fuel grade plutonium—for reactor development programs like the Fast Flux Test Facility and ultimately would have been a breeder reactor. It went to making weapons grade, which meant much shorter irradiation periods. Also, prior to their restarting of PUREX, the fuel was just stored. With the starting of PUREX, you would then let the fuel cool in the basin at N Reactor then ship it in casks on rail cars to the center of the site at PUREX where it would be dissolved in PUREX. The waste would be sent to waste tanks, the plutonium concentrate in a liquid form would be sent to the Plutonium Finishing Plant over in the 200-West area, where it would then be converted into a plutonium metal button about the size of a tuna fish can. And that would be then sent to Colorado—Rocky Flats Plant—where it would actually be fashioned into the material used in a nuclear weapon. So it was the facilities associated with reprocessing at PUREX, handling waste from PUREX, and the facilities associated with the Plutonium Finishing Plant for converting the plutonium to metal that were the primary set of facilities that had to restart.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so then N Reactor was the only reactor that was operated during that time?</p>
<p>Lawrence: It was the only production reactor on the Hanford Site at that time. And the only reactor that was producing water that was—steam—that was then used to produce electricity. There was another very important reactor at Hanford that was operating then. It was called the Fast Flux Test Facility, which had just started operation a year or so before I got here. And that was to be a precursor of a commercial breeder reactor. The developmental—the reactor, the full-scale reactor that was going to demonstrate the breeder process was going to be built in Oak Ridge, Tennessee at the Clinch River Breeder Reactor. But they built the FFTF prior to that in order to get a feeling for how the sodium cooling worked, the fuel worked, the interactions. It was a prototype, if you will, to see just how that system was going to work. And quite frankly, the FFTF was a tremendously successful test reactor and developmental reactor for liquid sodium. It operated flawlessly, really. Unfortunately, though, it shut down because the breeder program was canceled and there really wasn’t a need for it. People tried diligently to find a mission, to find a need for it. But it was a—it just wasn’t in the cards, and it eventually—it took until the late 1990s for it to be permanently shut down. But that was the other reactor that was operating when I came out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Yeah, I’ve interviewed several other people that worked at FFTF, and they’ve all—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Oh, and they’re very enthusiastic about the FFTF. And I can understand it. It was a great reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and a reactor with kind of a different mission than any of Hanford’s other reactors.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yes, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Save maybe the N Reactor which had a dual—</p>
<p>Lawrence: No, it was very different. It didn’t have that plutonium production role.</p>
<p>Franklin: How long did the production go at Hanford—that ‘80s Reagan era production?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, in 1986, the reactor in Chernobyl blew up—April of 1986. That was in Ukraine, at Chernobyl. Of course, there was very little information coming out after the news of that explosion occurred. You couldn’t get in; the Soviets weren’t saying anything about it. But they couldn’t deny it, because you could detect the radiation coming. But people knew, generally, what type of reactor the Russians were operating there. It was graphite-moderated, water-cooled, and very quickly they came upon the fact that, wait a minute, there’s a graphite-moderated, water-cooled reactor operating in the US out of Hanford that’s called the N Reactor. So consequently, I believe it was in the first week of the Chernobyl accident, one afternoon—I guess it was a morning—in the lobby of the Federal Building, it was mayhem. There must have been 50 to 100 people, representatives from all of the television networks, the major newspapers and wire services—all there wanting to do a story on N Reactor, the Chernobyl of the United States. So I got on the phone to Washington, DC and I said, look, we’ve got a problem here. Because we had been told, do not talk to the press about this. This is one of the few times when I was manager here that we were ever given instructions from Washington about how to interact and how to manage the sites. The managers had much greater authority then than they do now. And there was only one manager here at that point in time, as opposed to three that they have now. So we had a lot of leeway, but we’d been told, don’t talk about it because it’s very sensitive; it’s international news and we’re concerned about it. So when I called and said we have this mob scene in the lobby all wanting to talk about and go see the N Reactor, they said, don’t talk to them. Don’t do anything. I got back on the phone and I said, look, there’s stories that are going to be coming out of here. They can either be based on fact or they can be based upon fiction. If they’re based upon fiction, it’s not going to be pretty. And it’s going to be inaccurate. And I said, look, I will not speculate at all on what happened at Chernobyl. I don’t know. I care, but I’m not going to say a thing about that. I just want to explain how N Reactor works and what its safety features are, so that they can see for themselves. So reluctantly but finally, they relented and said, okay, you can show them. Go take them out. So we got a big bus. We put everybody on the bus—it was multiple buses. And we went out to N Reactor. And as you know, that’s about an hour’s drive out. But they were chomping at the bit. And I can remember the look on their faces when they saw—I think they were expecting a little Quonset huts with steam rising out of vents and out of chimneys and all the rest. And when they see this massive building—and in fact we were able to open one of the doors, which was three feet thick of concrete and steel. They looked at that and they were kind of amazed. And I explained to them that although commercial reactors have a system called containment, which is a big steel dome, production reactors don’t. It’s called confinement. It’s different. So it leads to speculation. Well, you know, containment’s going to keep it in; confinement’s not going to do it. And I was pointing out how we had ways of safely venting steam and pressure so it wouldn’t build up, so it couldn’t explode. And we went through all the safety systems, showed them in the inside, the face of the reactor. And consequently, the next several days in <em>USA Today</em>—I mean, it was front page stuff. But at least it was based upon, well, you know, here are all these safety features. It still raised a lot of issues and concerns because nobody knew what caused Chernobyl, so how could we say it couldn’t happen here? We could only say, here are all the safety systems we have to prevent something like that from happening here. Now, ultimately, we found out over time, that what happened at Chernobyl was a physical characteristic called a positive void coefficient. But basically something that didn’t exist in the physics out at N Reactor. But the damage was done. We did need to do some safety upgrades at N Reactor, which we did. But ultimately, in 1988 I believe it was, the Secretary of Energy, John Harrington, in testifying before Congress announced that the US had now produced so much plutonium that we were in fact, quote, awash in plutonium and didn’t need to produce any more. And quite frankly, with that being the case, we no longer had a justification for operating N Reactor. And ultimately it was shut down. To this day, I applaud the hard work and dedication of all the people out at N Reactor. They worked on the safety upgrades and the operation of that reactor, they worked extremely hard and were very, very proud of the operation of that reactor. I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to those people. They did a great job.</p>
<p>Franklin: There’s several things that strike me as really interesting that I want to return to in what you just said about Chernobyl and N. One was one of the last things, that John Harrington, awash with plutonium; the US had produced enough. Did you agree with that statement then? That we were—because that would be, I mean, your boss or boss’s boss.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Quite frankly, I didn’t know what the total plutonium numbers were for the country. I didn’t know what the total demand was. I do know that plutonium has a very long half-life and sooner or later, you’ve got to have more than you need. We had thousands and thousands of nuclear warheads then. So, I mean, I didn’t know for sure, but I knew at some point we were going to reach it, and quite frankly felt we probably had overshot. So I did not disagree with Secretary Harrington on that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, because I mean, we had passed mutually assured destruction quite a long—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And I guess, we know a lot more now about our stockpile then than we did then. But it’s a very interesting way to phrase that. We’re awash in—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, I mean, it conjures up an image that you really don’t want to have.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to return to the Chernobyl thing. It strikes me as interesting that this reaction of don’t talk to the press, which is—you can understand in some way, because you don’t want misinformation. But isn’t that the same kind of criticism that we would level at the Soviets? That they were clamming up and not saying anything, and we wished that they were saying something? So this reaction to not say anything on our side is—could have been seen as—you know—being too controlling maybe perhaps?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I mean, it went against my instincts, but it’s understandable. The Soviets were the one who had the accident. Now, if we had had an accident and they said, don’t talk to them, I would have been incensed. But basically, we were just going along and people want to come in and try to write a story and say, you’re just like Chernobyl. Well, in a sense, we didn’t know what Chernobyl was, how could we have definitely refuted that? So I can understand their perspective, because, quite frankly, some people at other sites had been quoted by the press as saying, well, we think this is what happened at Chernobyl, or that happened at Chernobyl. And it was just—it was getting out of hand. So I understood that. That was—my point was, I’m not going to talk at all about Chernobyl, because I don’t know. I do know N Reactor. I do know how it works, and I do know its safety features; that’s all I’m going to talk about. And I was awfully glad they let me do it.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s good, yeah. I’m wondering if you could talk about—being in charge of the Site here, I’m wondering if you could talk about the effect of Chernobyl on employee morale at Hanford. Did you notice a particular change—what changed as a result of—</p>
<p>Lawrence: I really don’t think I saw any change in the behavior of the people here. They were going about their work. They knew the systems and the procedures and the processes they worked by, the protections that they were given. I’ll tell you candidly one thing that always bothered me then and it bothers me today, is that sometimes people, they get off work and they act somewhat cavalier or bravado about the work they do. Whether it’s to impress somebody or what, I don’t know. But they say, oh yeah, we deal with this. You know, handling it not as seriously as it needs to be. I know on the job, they do and they have to. But then like a macho reaction at the Gaslight Tavern or something like that talking about what they’re doing. That bothers me because it leaves a wrong impression with the public. And it’s certainly not the way we act onsite.</p>
<p>Franklin: I guess I’d like to maybe rephrase that question. Did you see like maybe a level of—or rise of kind of the fatigue of workers, maybe thinking that anti-nuclear folks or that there was a new public perception that this was really unsafe or that there was really an imminent danger at Hanford? Do you think that weighed on—did that weigh on you, or did that weigh on anybody else?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I think there was a sense on their part that there was an overreaction, that people were, in a way, paranoid and exaggerating the risk. They knew the risk. The people who work here know the risk. But they also know the precautions, so they can balance it out. And consequently, they felt like there was an overreaction. But even before Chernobyl occurred, there was an event that put the Site under somewhat of a microscope and an intense scrutiny, and that would have been, I believe it was September of 1985. Now, Chernobyl happened in April of ’86; this was September of 1985 on a Sunday, <em>The Spokesman Review</em> newspaper in Spokane came out with a multiday series on what they called the downwinders. Basically, they were interviewing and writing stories about an area across the Columbia River in Eltopia, Mesa, where farmers had experienced or felt they had experienced undue health effects—a number of health effects and cancers, and even some wildlife—some of their livestock being born with—there was reports of double heads and the like. And this was a major news piece done by a reporter called Karen Dorn Steele, and quite frankly she did an excellent job of researching this and writing it up. And I—you know, this is the first any of us had heard about this. That was on a Sunday-Monday. So, again, trying to engage on this topic, that Thursday, just several days after it had come out, we had a public meeting over at the Edwin Markham Middle School in Eltopia, across the river, with the public to say, we’re here. What are your concerns? This is—let us tell you what we’ve been able to measure and monitor, and you tell us what your concerns are. And I had some people from Battelle who—we put out an annual monitoring report saying, here are the releases, here are the quantities, here’s how they compare with standards and the like. It was somewhat emotional. You know, people are worried about their health and people dying of cancer and the like. But we also knew that we, in our numbers—we weren’t showing anything that should have resulted in something like that. During that meeting, one of the farmers who had been prominently noted in the article, his name was Tom Bailey, he actually got up and said, well, okay, we’re not saying that you’re doing that to us now, or that you’re intentionally doing anything now. But what happened in the past? What happened back in the ‘50s? When he said that, I realized that, although we had monitoring reports going back to the Manhattan Project—here’s what people were measuring and monitoring and releasing—most of those had been classified secret. And they had never been declassified. It wasn’t malicious; it’s just not a simple process to declassify a document. But I knew because of the extent of time involved, they could be. So, I then at that meeting said, you know, if you want to know, we can go back, we can review and declassify those documents and make them available so you can actually see what was being done. That seemed to both surprise but also satisfy. So we came back and started the process of declassifying monitoring reports going back to the mid-1940s. That is a time-consuming and expensive process. But we were doing it. And we were keeping the public—I used to have monthly press availabilities at the Federal Building and we’d talk about that. But we didn’t really have the first batch of documents, which was 19,000 pages deep, ready to release until February. Now, one thing I’d like to make very clear and to get on the record: we’re in the process of doing that—time-consuming and expensive—but in January, one month before we completed and released the documents, a Freedom of Information request was filed for those documents by an environmental group. I’m not certain of who it is, so I won’t say who it was. But it was an environmental group, filed a Freedom of Information request. And we said, wait a minute. We are releasing these; it’ll be ready next month—the first batch. The reason I raise that is because subsequently, to this day, I hear from time to time people say, you released those documents—they were forced out of you by the Freedom of Information request. And I say, that is just not true. We had—if you go and check the record, we had committed to doing that a long time before. Again, getting back to credibility—it was easy to make that charge. In fact, I had <em>National Geographic</em> call me about ten years ago checking a story and that specific point. Because they didn’t know if it was right or not and they were able to research it and confirm it. But anyway, we were able to release those documents. But when those documents came out—and this was a mistake on my part—there was a lot of information there, but where was the understanding? Where was the, if you want to call it, education of the public, so they could understand what they were reading? And very quickly, it was found that one of the monitoring reports from 1949 had talked about something called the Green Run, where fuel that had been cooled for shorter than normal, so there were radioactive elements in it, was dissolved and more radioactivity went up, intentionally, through the stack. Some of the background as to why that was done had to be deleted—because it was still classified. When this document—when that report was found and the Green Run was discussed, there was speculation that it was associated with human experimentation: let’s release it and see what happens to the public when it hits them. That was not the case at all. In fact, I knew from reading the documents, they had delayed the Green Run because unfavorable weather conditions that they thought might be harmful to the public. But nonetheless, since certain portions had to be deleted because of classification, we couldn’t really explain it to people. And that created quite an uproar. It’s normal and naturally you would expect people to think you’re trying to intentionally harm the public or experiment on the public. Ultimately, what we decided to do was that, even though we could not tell the public the intent of the Green Run, congressmen and senators from Washington and Oregon, by purpose of their position, have clearance and can be told. So I went back to Washington, DC with a person here from the lab and in a classified conference room in the rotunda of the US Capitol, we had the entire delegations from Washington and Oregon there, and we were able to explain to them the classified reason why the experiment was done and why it was still classified today. Tom Foley, who was later to become the Speaker of the House, from Spokane, more or less led the group. He appreciated it, but he pushed back. He says, I’ve got to have more to tell the public than that. I have to be able to tell them whether we know, but we can’t tell you. You’ve got to give me a little bit to tell them as to why it’s so classified. So I was able to get on the phone, again, back to the department, talk to them about it. And ultimately we were able to explain that the reason it was done was to allow the US government to improve their methods for determining and detecting what the Soviet Union was doing with their production program. Ultimately, it became known, if you measure the iodine and the cesium, you could cut back and see what they’re producing. And the reason it was still classified was that we were still, back in 1986, using that technique for nuclear non-proliferation detection around the world. So it’s since been declassified, but that was the reason. I felt that was a good use of our government and our representatives to represent the people and be able to explain to the people what was going on. But ultimately that whole—all those documents led us to create something called the Northwest Citizens Forum for Defense Waste, which was 25 individuals picked from a broad cross-section: academia, industry, church leaders—to be given the information and to be briefed on the information and ask and have answers provided for any questions they have. So they could act as the public’s representatives on what was being done. And that ultimately turned into all of the citizens’ groups that are formed at the DOE sites now. Where you have—here it’s called the HAB, the Hanford Advisory Board. But it was the first ever citizens’ group to oversee and look at what was going on at the DOE sites.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you for that. That’s really illuminating. Wasn’t it still a calculated risk, though? Sorry, the Green Run, the actual action itself. Certainly there’s still, I think, in the mind of a lot of people—even though it may have been check the release to see how much the Soviets were releasing, there still is a real calculated risk, though. Or do you think that there’s still a calculated risk there—that there could have been some environmental or human population damage resulting from a higher-than-average—or kind of breaking protocol that was set to release that much contaminate?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, based on what I was able to look at and the rationale and how it was done, they were doing it at levels such that it would be a fraction of what the public was allowed to be exposed to. Even with that higher amount. It would just be a fraction. And that’s why when weather conditions weren’t right, and they felt it would rise above that, they didn’t do it. There are always risks. And were the standards that they were a fraction of, were they right, were they wrong, were they conservative, were they not strong enough? I mean, hindsight, you can go back and ask all those questions. But based upon the knowledge that they had at the time, they were being conservative. That also happened to be at the time when we were doing atmospheric testing at the Nevada Test Site. And you’re setting off nuclear bombs that people are going out and watching, you know, maybe 20 miles away. I’m not saying that’s right, and we know now it was wrong. But it was a fraction of the exposure that might have existed there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. I get—yes. That’s very true and that’s a good point. I guess it just—the only thing that still strikes, at least in my mind, as a difference is that they’re informing the public about the nuclear bombs so people can go and watch them. Whereas the Green Run was kind of this—I think that maybe—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah, it was secret. No.</p>
<p>Franklin: It came out after the fact. And it was like, what else could these guys be hiding? Because, like you said, there was already that level of mistrust there.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: It just seems like that event can never really shake that level of mistrust in some ways with some people.</p>
<p>Lawrence: In hindsight, that’s true, but it was a very different time. A very different time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of course. That’s just an interesting legacy. So, thank you for covering Chernobyl so much. I just have one more question. What role did Hanford play in assisting the Soviets—Hanford and Battelle play in assisting the Soviets with Chernobyl? Wasn’t there a team—</p>
<p>Lawrence: None at the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: --that went over?</p>
<p>Lawrence: None at the time. The Soviets didn’t ask for any. Ultimately, and actually when I came back to the Tri-Cities in 1999 and eventually started working for the Pacific Northwest National Lab, under my responsibility was the team we had at Chernobyl helping to build the new sarcophagus, the confinement structure, that now has been completed and rolled over the destroyed reactor. And I’ve been to Chernobyl a number of times and visited on that project. So we were involved in that. But I don’t recall us being asked to provide any assistance or having provided any assistance at that point in time.</p>
<p>Franklin: I was wondering—I’d like to—Chernobyl made me think of another incident, maybe hop back in time real quick and get your perceptions on that. You weren’t here, but I know you were still working in the nuclear industry, and I’m wondering maybe if you’re going to guess what I’m going to ask about, but I’m wondering, in the late ‘70s, the Three Mile Island scare. I’m wondering if you—because you were not here at the time of Three Mile Island, right, you would have been back east. But I’m wondering if you could talk about the legacy of that incident and how that affected people’s perceptions of nuclear—</p>
<p>Lawrence: Oh, it affected everybody’s perceptions of nuclear because—everyone in the nuclear industry had gotten a little sloppy, implying an accident cannot happen, it will not happen. You know, we’ve got all these precautions; the risk is so small, they’re non-existent. Well, nothing is non-existent. Everything is a risk, and if enough things go wrong, yes, you can have a problem. And they certainly had it there. Much more serious than they ever expected it to be. But in hindsight, the fact of the matter is, the systems all worked to contain it. There were never any releases harmful to the public. There was never a single fatality or anything associated with the Three Mile Island accident. I can remember exactly where I was when I heard about it. I was getting ready to go take a run at lunchtime in the AEC—or it would have been a DOE at that time—building. And someone said, hey, did you hear they had some reactor incident going on up in Pennsylvania? You know, it started then and several days later I was getting calls from good friends who we were godparents of their child who lived in Hershey saying, should we evacuate? And I said, follow what the governor says. I really don’t have any firsthand knowledge, but it really did shake people’s fears, because it led people to say, you said it couldn’t happen and it did. And that’s always a problem.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s such a tough issue of framing, though, right? Because you can either say, well, it could happen but we have really good safeguards so it probably won’t, which leaves open the door in people’s minds to something happening. Or you can say, well, it won’t, we’ve got this under control and it won’t happen. How do you frame—framing disaster seems to be a very tricky subject. Or framing the possibility of disaster.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Yeah. In part, because you can say, just looking at risk and probability, you can say you’re more likely to be hit by lightning than to die from this. And you’re willing to accept one but not the other. It’s what people are associated with. And if they think, I don’t have to deal with that, I don’t even want to deal with that minimal risk. I just don’t want to do it. That’s understandable; it’s part of human nature.</p>
<p>Franklin: It kind of comes to, we see this a lot in current day in dealing with—well, won’t go into that. But there seems to be a—there’s these fact-based arguments but they can’t always counter the emotion-based arguments. And a lot of the response to nuclear seems, in some cases to be emotionally-based and not fact—and immune, almost inoculated against the factual side of it. Which seems to bother many who have a lot of intimate knowledge, a lot of people who worked at Hanford who know the risks can’t ever seem to communicate that to the critics. I wonder if you could expand on that at all, being someone who would have been trying to communicate that to critics of Hanford. And how you’ve dealt with that fact-versus-emotion in your career.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well you see it—you still see it today. Fukushima is an excellent example of that. Assist you with the nuclear accident first. That tidal wave hits, completely washes over, and the plant loses all power. Now, most importantly that was an avoidable accident. Even as hugely severe as a tsunami was, if they just had have had the secondary generators higher and separated more from the plant, they wouldn’t have lost power, and the reactors would have been fine. In this country, we have that requirement. They didn’t have it there. So that reactor accident, which was catastrophic, it was devastating, could have been prevented if rules that we have here had have been used there. But the other thing—and this is more to the point you made—18,000 people were killed by the tsunami, by the flood, by all of the devastation caused by the tsunami. None were caused by the nuclear accident. And yet all of the attention is on the nuclear accident. And it’s not like, oh, but there’ll be 18,000 in the future—there won’t. You know, looking at the numbers, it’s hard to say if there’ll be any. And people are evacuated now, when perhaps they don’t even need to be, but it’s out of the fear of whatever’s left there. And consequently, because of that, it’s causing stress that have led to heart attacks and have led to fatalities. Are they caused by the nuke—they’re not caused by radiation, but they’re caused by fear of radiation or caused by fear of the displacement. So how do you put that in perspective, where as a nuclear accident has gotten all the attention, but a tsunami that killed 18,000 people, it’s sort of like, well, that’s an act of nature? And so, I really don’t know how to balance that. I do know that on <em>NOVA</em> last month, they had a very good show about that. Because nuclear is a carbon-free source of baseload electricity, and if we’re going to deal with climate change, I know I believe and many people believe nuclear has to be part of the solution.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I would personally agree with you. I wondered—so, moving past Chernobyl then, you mentioned that as kind of a major—you know, it definitely is a major event in regards to people’s perceptions of Hanford. And you mentioned in ’88 this—awash in plutonium. How did it play out after that? What was the drawdown like? What happened in the community when that—when it was realized that Hanford was—the mission was going to change?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, you know, there was fear, because Hanford—the Tri-Cities over time, going back to the ‘50s and ‘60s had gone through booms and busts. And whenever Hanford production was up, the community was good; whenever it was down, homes were for sale, property values dropped and all the rest. So there was a feel, that was going to continue. And if N Reactor was shutting down, PUREX was down, it was going to happen to have a devastating effect on the economy again. Of course, what also happened at the same time was the commitment to the cleanup mission and the negotiation in signing the Tri-Party Agreement, which led to the cleanup mission here, which has continued and kept levels and funding levels right up to where they were and actually higher than in the production days. Maybe not employment necessarily, but it’s close. But also the Tri-Cities has significantly diversified from Hanford. Still very much—we get through $3 billion a year from the federal government between the Site and the national lab in this community, and that’s got huge benefits. But we’ve diversified quite a bit. But, getting to the Tri-Party Agreement, that was a direct result of a legal decision in Tennessee in 1985 that said that Department of Energy sites had to comply with national and state environmental rules. Up until that time, it had been assumed that the Atomic Energy Act, that the department operated under absolved us from that, or we did not have to do that. When that ruling came down, ultimately, it led to getting together with federal regulators in the form of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and state regulators in the form of the Department of Ecology, to find out, okay, where are we in violation, what do we need to change, and how do we do that? You don’t do it instantaneously. Which, obviously, is clear. And that led to the negotiation and the ultimate signing in May of—May 15<sup>th</sup> of 1989 of the Tri-Party Agreement. But that has provided a rather steady employment, funding, and—you know, I realize it’s taking longer than people thought, it’s costing more than people thought. And fortunately, it’s not an urgent—it’s not the type of crisis where something has to be done immediately or here’s the catastrophic result. It’s a problem in slow motion that the main thing you want to do is get the solution right the first time. You don’t want to go hot with the Vit Plant and then find out it doesn’t work. Because you’ll never—you won’t get around to it again. So let’s make sure we’ve got it right. It’s been an enduring process, and I’m very pleased and proud of the enduring capabilities of the Tri-Party Agreement.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was your role in the negotiation and signing of the Tri-Party Agreement?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, we—the Richland Operations Office had the responsibility and role of negotiating with EPA Region 10 and the Department of Ecology for what the cleanup agreement would look like and what it would entail. And we kept Washington, DC informed of what we were doing and we’d get feedback from them. But it was our main responsibility to do that. Initially a person by the name of Jerry White and then ultimately Ron Izatt who worked for me as division directors had that responsibility of negotiating. And they would brief me every other day and we would get involved. From time to time, I would have discussions with the head of ecology who was Chris Gregoire, who subsequently became governor of the state, on issues that they would rise to our level. Or with Robie Russell, who was the head of EPA regionally, on issues that would come up. But we eventually worked out, basically, the agreement: this would be done and this was the timeframe for doing it. Then it came time to saying, okay, this is what we’ve got. It was in December of 1978 when we had pretty much wrapped everything up.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sorry—’88?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I’m sorry. ’88, yes, I’m sorry. December of ’88. So I went over to Lacey near Olympia where Ecology is located, to meet with Chris Gregoire and her team, and I had Ron Izatt and a lawyer from our team, to talk about what we were going to do. And at that meeting—it was a Friday afternoon—they said, okay, what we want to do now is we want to take this to a court and have a judge bless it, make it law: this is what has to be done. And we couldn’t go along with that, and the reason was that the lawyer for the federal government is the Department of Justice. And anytime you go to court as a US government agency, the Department of Justice represents you. They do not believe in friendly settlements. They will fight everything. I don’t mean that to be critical; that’s just the approach they take. And I said to her, I said, Chris, if you insist on taking this to court, we, the Department of Energy and I, lose all ability to deal with this, and it goes into the hands of lawyers who get paid to fight it. And you’re going to win. You’ve got the law on your side. But it’s going to be two, three years from now at great expense. I said, why don’t we just sign it as an agreement, shake hands on it, and you wait for us to violate it, and then take us to court. And she—we went back and forth on that issue. EPA, by the way, had stepped back and said, if you two can reach agreement, we’ll go along with anything that you say. Because they knew we had the tough issues. And so finally, you know, she said, no, we need it in court. These were her instructions, or this is where the governor wanted to go. And I said, well, Chris, can we take this to the governor? And, fortunately, through my tenure here, I had wonderful relations, a great respect for Governor Booth Gardner, who was the governor at that time. And she said, sure, we can take it to him. Subsequently, the following Friday I went over by myself with her and we met with Governor Gardner in his office in Olympia in the state capitol. And I went through the message of, you know, I don’t have the authority to sign this in court. If it goes to court, Justice will fight it, you’ll win, but it will be two years from now or whatever. Didn’t sway the governor. You know, it was clear: no, we want this—we want the law behind it and make it in a court of law. I must have said the same thing three times. Always slightly different. Maybe I warmed him, I don’t know what. But finally the governor looked at Chris and said, well, Chris, could you live with it as an agreement until if and when they fail to live up to it and then go to court? And she said, you know, Governor, if you can, I can. And the governor says, okay, that’s what we’ll do. And so it was an act of faith and it worked for a long time before it ended up in court. But we would not have had the Tri-Party Agreement when we did in the manner in which we did without his willingness and her willingness to concede on that point and let us move on with it.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so when the Tri-Party Agreement was established, what did that lay out for the future of Hanford?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Basically, it took the entire Site and all the areas in which we were in non-compliance, whether it was currently operating sites—even though the plant wasn’t operating, there were still facilities that were operating that fell under the state, or old sites which fell under EPA. All of those things, and when they would be cleaned up, the schedule and process for doing it. And that’s what it laid out. It also laid out, like, the ability to modify the agreement as you went forward. Because the simple fact was, we were operating with nowhere near the degree of knowledge and specificity you would need to have hard-and-fast deadlines. And the other thing was, we didn’t know, and we still don’t know today, what the funding will be year to year. Okay, or problems that will come up. But there was a process in there to move with it and to let it happen. And that was, I think, one of the best features of the Tri-Party Agreement. And it required parties to act in good faith. And I’m pleased it did.</p>
<p>Franklin: Excellent. Was there anything in there about any of the history at Hanford or preserving any of the historic activity at Hanford, whether—keeping buildings there or documenting the history in some way, or saving equipment or anything used in the process?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Not really, no. I mean, this was all compliance. This was an enforcement order. But we did make sure that B Reactor was going to be one of the last things to be—actually, originally, they wanted all of the reactors out on the Site by the rivers to be decontaminated as best they could, and then they wanted to dig under the reactors, bring in the big crawlers they use at Cape Canaveral to move missiles, put it under there, lift up the block, and take it to the center of the Site. And I thought, oh, my good—and that was to be done early in the process. And we said, let’s move that ‘til about 25 years from now. Of course, subsequently they’ve learned how to cocoon and maybe that’ll be found to be good enough. But, I mean, that was—we didn’t have the level of specificity or knowledge or information that you need to do a good cleanup then as we do now.</p>
<p>Franklin: I know that the B Reactor Museum Association was founded in the early ‘90s, but were there whispers then when you were signing that agreement or afterwards about saving B Reactor or saving something onsite as kind of a testament to the production at Hanford?</p>
<p>Lawrence: There very well may have been. I just—I wasn’t cognizant of it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. So when did you leave working at the Richland office?</p>
<p>Lawrence: I left in July of 1990.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so you were—and why did you leave? Where did you go after?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, in part, I went to work for a company in Colorado that was doing cleanup work. But I was only there less than a year when the state department offered me a diplomatic post in Vienna, Austria. Because that was right after the first Gulf War, when they discovered that the Iraqis had a clandestine nuclear program, and they wanted the International Atomic Energy Agency, who was supposed to monitor things like that, to become stronger and more efficient and effective. And the State Department decided that they wanted a person with technical knowledge and ability but who also had had some international experience, which I had in the ‘70s under a Carter program doing international negotiations. So they called me up and I went to Vienna, then, to do that. I left here, one, because the managers’ authorities had been greatly, greatly reduced.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that a result of the Tri-Party Agreement, or just from the shift or production to cleanup?</p>
<p>Lawrence: In part, it was due to the Tri-Party Agreement in that as we were negotiating the Tri-Party Agreement—we had the responsibility for doing that here, but kept Washington informed of our activities and getting their agreement as we went along. And right after those meetings that I told you about with Chris Gregoire and Governor Gardner, that was in December. In January of that year, a new Secretary of Energy was coming in. Admiral Watkins had been appointed to be the Secretary of Energy. So he was transitioning in, and there was an acting secretary. Her name was Donna Fitzpatrick, who was interacting with him as this transition occurred. Acting Secretary Fitzpatrick—they all knew what we were doing here. But as it happens, the agreement was formally signed in May 15<sup>th</sup>, 1989. But three months prior to that—what would that have been, February—is when—you have to give a three-month notice before you do something like that, for public comment and the like. As it turns out, everyone was so pleased with coming to agreement that the announcement of agreement was made in the rotunda of the Capitol in Washington, DC. Governor Gardner was there, I was there, representatives of DC and the Department were there, EPA were there, and it was announced we had reached agreement and it would be signed in three months in May. You know, after the formal comment period and any changes that had to occur. Well, in the normal question-and-answer period that went on, with that announcement, the State said, this is going to be commit the government to be spending $25 billion for the cleanup of Hanford. Now, it just so happened that the very next day was Admiral Watkins’ first day as Secretary of Energy. During that first day, he was to meet with all of the site managers, including myself. That morning, when it appeared in the paper that Washington State says it’s committed to paying $25 billion—whatever that means—the Office of Management and Budget, which, evidently had been left in the dark—I don’t know. I had no responsibility to inform them. They called him up and said, what in the world’s going on over there? What are you doing committing us to $25 billion? We go into the meeting with the new secretary. And he proceeded to just chew me up and chew me down as to, this is the worst thing we’ve ever done, how could we be so bad and stupid, and all this other stuff. And I just sat there, and—you know, you can’t push back, really. You just think—and unfortunately, the former acting secretary, Donna Fitzpatrick was sitting next to him. She knew all about it, but she couldn’t do anything. And it really just set a very bad tone with the secretary. Subsequently, however, as the kudos started coming in about what a good agreement this was and how it showed good cooperation and compliance by the Department, Admiral Watkins was very happy to take the credit for the Tri-Party Agreement. But life was a little uncomfortable out here. And I decided then I was going to be leaving. But I didn’t want to leave in the first year, because I wanted to make sure the Tri-Party Agreement got off to a good start. So, subsequently when I did leave, a lot of it was about the fact that it just wasn’t the same job. And quite frankly, a very important tenet of any management job is never accept responsibility that you don’t have the authority to fulfill. If you don’t have the authority, but have the responsibility, it just doesn’t work. And I didn’t, and I left.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. How did you come back to the area?</p>
<p>Lawrence: That’s an interesting story as well. After I left Vienna in 1985, I was hired by—</p>
<p>Franklin: Sorry, you mean 1995.</p>
<p>Lawrence: ’95, I’m sorry, yeah, I have my years mixed. 1995. I went to work for a company called BNFL, which stands for British Nuclear Fuels, Limited. And they had bought a company in Los Alamos, New Mexico and they asked me to be president of it. I was running the company, and then they subsequently asked me to move back to their Washington, DC headquarters for their US operations as the chief operating officer, which I did. But that was also the same time when BNFL had gotten the contract to design the Vitrification Plant for the Hanford Site. And they had brought in engineers and managers from the UK to head up that project here in the Tri-Cities. So, I’ve gone back to Washington, DC as the chief operating officer of BNFL, Inc., which is the US component. And shortly—not so long after it—I was there less than a year—the manager of the project in Richland came back. And they had signed an agreement of what they were going to do and the government was going along with it. It was basically, for $6.5 billion they would build and operate the plant and process the first so many million gallons of waste, for $6.5 billion. When that manager came back, he indicated—he said, you know—he’s British; I’m not going to do a British accent—but he said, you know, I really—I’m not fitting in well with the community. I just don’t understand those people out there. I don’t fit in well with the community. We need somebody out there who understands things. Well, I love this community. I know this community. They were very, very good to me and my family when we were here. So I raised my hand and said, I know those people. This was our biggest project by far for our company, I’d be willing to go out and head up the project. And so subsequently, I came out to head up the Vit Plant. Within a week of getting here, I had to go and report to the new Office of River Protection, which had responsibility for it, what the status was of our cost estimates. I had only been here a week, so they give me the numbers. And I asked the—are they aware of this? Yeah, they’re aware of this. So I went in and, oh, all hell broke loose. Because the number—it had risen. It was higher than 6.5. And Dick French, who was the head of the project, rightly so, says, I can’t—this is terrible. Your first report—and it’s over budget already. And I knew Dick, and I understood his position. And basically, I said, let me go back and find out what’s going on. I was told you were on board with this. You obviously are not. Let me find out. I subsequently found out that there had been an arbitrary 20% cut in their estimates, thinking they were just going to drive things harder and shave things off and make it cheaper. And I had a—obviously, I had a major problem with this. Because in the beginning, you don’t shave back. You have contingency that’s built in and you work off. It doesn’t work the other way. And so I’d moved back here, we bought a house, I’m running the—and this project is going downhill quick. What was worse was that I tried to tell BNFL, we need to go to the Department and say, this number, $6.5 billion, for the plant and operations of it is not going to work. We need to renegotiate. We need to do something different. And I got nothing but pushback. We would not do this. And I was even—I said, you know, if we don’t do something, we’re going to be fired. And they said, they can’t fire us. They’re not going to fire us. And I said, I’m sorry, I said, I can’t continue to operate like that. So I resigned. Resigned from the project. Didn’t have another job, but I figured, I’ll find something. But I can’t continue with this. And within two months, Secretary Richardson had fired BNFL. Fortunately, a couple months after that, Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Lab hired me to run their nuclear programs. That’s how I came back, and that’s how I spent my first two years back. As managing a dying project and then transitioning to a new job.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did you work at PNNL?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I worked from 2000 up until 2008. And during that period, I had responsibility—I was the associate lab director for energy. But in the latter part of that timeframe, I was also deputy lab director for facilities and was responsible for the putting together and funding and getting approved the new—they called it a consolidated lab—facilities that are just north of Horn Rapids Road and two private facilities that are on the campus. And then Battelle asked if I’d be willing to lead a team to manage the national nuclear lab in the United Kingdom. They had put together a team with two other companies to do that. And I said I’d be willing to do that. I had spent time in Europe already. And I went over and subsequently we won the contract in the early 2009. So in 2009 and ’10, I was the director of the national nuclear lab in the UK. And then I retired and came back and retired here in West Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, great. Well, thank you so much, Mike. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d like to talk about?</p>
<p>Lawrence: Well, I’d like to get on record that I’ve been very, very fortunate in my life to hold some very interesting positions and to work for some phenomenal people. But the job that I enjoyed the most was as manager of the Richland Operations Office. There was a spirit, a camaraderie, a support, a community spirit that I felt there that I’ve just—as much as I’ve enjoyed my other jobs, nothing quite as good as that. It was really, really enjoyable, and aside from my wife and family, probably there was nothing better that had ever happened to us than to move to this area and be involved in these activities. I’ve really enjoyed it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for coming in today.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Okay, very good. Thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right, yeah.</p>
<p>Lawrence: Thanks.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. That was a great--<br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/SiYN7OCJOAs">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:23:14
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
B Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
N Reactor
Vitrification Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1972-1990
2000-2007
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1972-1990
2000-2007
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Donald Hodel
William Skylstad
Paul Lorenzini
Howard Hughes
John Harrington
Karen Dorn Steele
Jerry White
Ron Izatt
Chris Gregoire
Robie Russell
Carter
Governor Gardner
Donna Fitzpatrick
Admiral Watkins
Dick French
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Michael Lawrence
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Michael Lawrence conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
02-01-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
200 Area
Atomic Energy Commission
B Reactor
B Reactor Museum Association
Battelle
Cat
ceremonies
Dam
Department of Energy
Fast Flux Test Facility
Hanford
Kennewick
Los Alamo
Los Alamos
Manhattan Project
Mountain
N Reactor
Plutonium
Plutonium Finishing Plant
PUREX
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Road
Savannah River
School
Sun
VIT Plant
Vitrification Plant
War
Washington Public Power Supply System
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2cc5a9df175464365af258afc976817e.jpg
19a8294780b3335126190a2f93e00cdd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
George and Marjorie Kraemer
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Victor Vargas: Okay.</p>
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer on December 9<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with George and Marjorie about their experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full names for us, starting with George?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: George R. Kraemer and Kraemer’s K-R-A-E-M-E-R.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Marjorie Kraemer, K-R-A-E-M-E-R.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And George is G-E-O-R-G-E?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And Marjorie?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you. So tell me how and why you—did you both come to the Hanford Site together?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so tell me how and why you both came to the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was at the University of Wisconsin--</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --in 1955. And I had a friend that was out here. And he told me about all of the deer hunting and the fishing, and all the good things. And he enticed me to come out.</p>
<p>Franklin: There wasn’t much of that in Wisconsin?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yeah. But going out West—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --that was new. And so I drove out in April of 1955. I already had a job out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And I stayed at the dorms—M-5, as I remember.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was your job?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was a lab assistant first.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: From April of ’55 to May of ’56. And then I transferred to drafting department.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: This was at General Electric. And I was in there for—oh, from ’56 to December of ’65.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And then I was asked to take another position. With—it was actually with Isochem. And it was—oh, engineering analyst, shop engineer, I went through all of those where I worked in a shop where they built vessels for Hanford—for PUREX, for REDOX, B Plant, T Plant—must be one more in there. And I did inspection of them. Fantastic job. Did that for—oh, quite a few years. Then in April of ’75, for another two years, I was a shop planner. I planned the activities of the shop—fabrication shop. And then in July of 1977, I was asked to be manager of this facility—of the shops. They had six separate shops, you know, like machine, tool and die, boilermaker, sheet metal, rotating equipment, welding lab, and all that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: A fun job, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I kind of liked that; that was down my alley. Then in April of ’81, I was asked to manage activities of the design drafting group in 200 Areas. And I had—supervising the unit managers, engineering designers, drafters and engineers. Then in April of ’84, I was manager of specialty fabrication design and fabrication engineering support group. Again, this had drafting, designers, checkers, a few engineers. Then Westinghouse came. And I was asked to be the manager of design services which had all the drafting for Westinghouse.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Did that for a number of years. And then--[LAUGHTER]—then my manager was a director, and I told him one day, you need an assistant. I said, I’m going to retire in due time, and I said, you need an assistant. And he looked at me kind of odd. But anyway, six months later he called me up, and he says, would you be my assistant? Had a good job. Nobody reporting to me. I did engineering quality counsel, the PRICE program, and Great Ideas, employee concerns, Native American outreach, the Signature Awards for Westinghouse. I wrote a few speeches, some for the president of Westinghouse.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was kind of a good job! Then I wrote a little note here, I retired after 36 years on July 31<sup>st</sup>, 1991. 36 years, 3 months and 19 days, or nearly 9,500 work days, over 106,000 hours at 8 hours a day and over 6 million minutes at Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, you really broke that down to the very last second.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But what I’m most proud about, except for that first transfer, all of my jobs, I was asked to take.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I thought that was—said something for me, anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: And Marjorie, how did you come to Hanford?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, he came out, so—[LAUGHTER] And so we were engaged, and I came out in May. And we got married out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: May of—would that be—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1955.</p>
<p>Franklin: ’55, okay. And you guys were married here in Richland, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, in Coeur d’Alene.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Coeur d’Alene, beautiful up there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t work that first summer. I came in May. And then I got a job at General Electric in September, in the finance department.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked in the 700 Area downtown. And then they reorganized—or disorganized, I used to call it—[LAUGHTER]—and split up. And then I had to go out to the 200 Areas for a few years. And then I quit at the end of 1958 and had our children.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: After they—our son was in kindergarten, I went to work for a doctor in town, a pathologist, for ten years. And then I went to work for Exxon Nuclear, Advanced Nuclear Fuels. Which was eventually bought out by Siemens, whom I retired with in 1991 also.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. And when did you start with Exxon Nuclear?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1975.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so you spent a significant amount of time—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And did you also do finance and accounting there?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, yes, in the accounting department.</p>
<p>Franklin: How—did you face any particular issues as being a woman in the workplace from the ‘50s—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, let’s see.</p>
<p>Franklin: Especially in that early era, you know, where women were first kind of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You couldn’t work overtime.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I remember when I worked out in the areas, in the 200 Areas, women couldn’t work overtime. For some reason. I don’t know if it was a union thing or a company policy or the federal government.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You couldn’t work alone, anyway.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. You couldn’t work overtime. They didn’t want you to work out there then.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you couldn’t work alone, either?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, in overtime, I remember when I was manager over there, if some of the ladies had to work, we had to have somebody around.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like a male supervisor or just a supervisor?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, somebody. Another worker even.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right. Interesting.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And it was different, living in Richland, because it was a government town.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And you had to—you probably interviewed people where you get on a housing list to get a house. And your name comes up, you go down and you look in this little glass deal where they had the list—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They posted of the new—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Posted them, and when you--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really? I hadn’t heard that. Could you describe it in a little more detail?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we put in for housing as soon as we got here. That was, well, in May. They had a posted board. Every week, they’d put a posting out there on the board and say who was eligible for a house. Finally, being the lowest peons out there, [LAUGHTER] we were eligible for a two-bedroom prefab.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. I live in one of those now.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Do you? Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So we got to look at two or three of them. Had to do it real promptly. And we choose one. 706 Abbott.</p>
<p>Franklin: 706 Abbott, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: In Richland.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: We lived there in town, yeah. It was different, because, well, the house came with appliances. Refrigerator, stove and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: What was it, $26?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: $27 a month or something.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: $27 a month or something for rent.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how was that comparative to—like, is that a pretty average rent, or was that a pretty good deal?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was cheaper because it was government.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was cheap. Of course, I didn’t make too much money back then, either. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Of course if something went wrong, you just called up housing and they came and fixed it. Or they gave you a new one. [LAUGHTER] You know, a new stove or whatever.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were they pretty prompt?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like, was the service—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they were.</p>
<p>Franklin: --pretty good?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They had a special group, that’s all they did was maintain the homes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And describe that atmosphere of living in a company town where everyone worked at the same place and, you know, it was landlords of the government. I wonder if you could kind of talk about that atmosphere.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, every Friday afternoon, <em>The GE News</em> would come out. You’ve probably heard of the GE News.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, we have copies of <em>The GE News</em> in our collection.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was the local one, and that was reading, and they had the want ads in there, which you always went because people were buying and selling a lot of things in that era. The—like she said, I remember the water. The water was—we had both irrigation water and house water. Two separate spigots there. And that was kind of interesting. That all come with our $26 or $27.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: After about, oh, I don’t know how many years it was, we got a—no, we bought that house. That’s right.</p>
<p>Franklin: In ’58, when they—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, ’58.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we bought that house. I think we paid $2,200 for it, as I remember.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They were appraised maybe $3,000 and then they gave you a discount.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And not too long after that, we moved into a two-bedroom—three-bedroom—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Three-bedroom, precut.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Three-bedroom precut.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That we bought on our own through the realtor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that one of the newer constructions?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was better construction.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: It was better construction?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The prefabs are made out of two-by-twos instead of two-by-fours for structure.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And plywood—quarter-inch plywood on the inside and outside, and some—insulation wasn’t too good in it, but it had a little bit.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, the insulation leaves a little bit to be desired.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It’s some sort of paper product, two inches thick.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Well, yeah, because those were made, originally, for the Tennessee Valley Authority.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to not last very long.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Short-term thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. And they’re still—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they’re still in use, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still around, yeah. Yeah, mine has been pretty extensively remodeled, but it’s still—still standing.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I do remember when we first came here that Richland had the highest birthrate and the lowest death rate of anyone in the nation.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: We were part of that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was likely due to the medical care, right?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The medical care, a lot of young people—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And everybody worked at Hanford and so they—you know, they were younger. There wasn’t any grandma and grandpas around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, other people I’ve interviewed have mentioned that, that when they—especially—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: There wasn’t older people, you didn’t see them in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, there was no one who was retired or—</p>
<p>Marjorie: Right, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No! You’re right on.</p>
<p>Franklin: So it was mostly probably people your age.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then children of varying ages.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You talk about the other things went on. We had limited places where we could go out and eat.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Like we had the Mart building. That was a popular place.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, they had a grease—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It had a drug store.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It had a little diner in it or whatever.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: A little dining area, things like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Little greasy spoon type of thing?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where was that?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was on the corner of where the post office used to be, on that corner there, across the street. And of course it was kind of like a Quonset hut.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, it was like a big Quonset thing.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And of course it’s been torn down.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Remodeled, anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Quonset huts haven’t lasted somehow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: When I lived in the dorms, M-5, for a month? Two months? Before we got married. And I was out here with a friend and she wasn’t out here yet. And then trying to get our food every night, we had to go eat in restaurants every night. It was kind of interesting. Very limited.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Compared to what you have nowadays.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, or even perhaps where you had come from in—was that University of Wisconsin, is that Madison?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. I imagine a college town would have probably had a little bit more to—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --for, you know. And so what about the night life? Did you ever partake in night life in Richland, or was there much of night life?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No. We just—we played, you know, cards and things with friends.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, a lot of cards. We had a couple friends out here already. And then we made new friends pretty rapidly. As I said, we had a lot of cards.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Played cards.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Camping. Did a lot of camping. I had a ’49 Ford—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --at that instance and timeframe. And the first summer we were here we were about camping every weekend.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where would you go, often?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, the Blue Mountains, north above Spokane—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Mount Rainier.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mount Rainier, a lot. That’s one of my favorite places.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: White Pass.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it’s really pretty up there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So that took a lot of our time in the summer.</p>
<p>Franklin: I bet.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Winter times were—well, we didn’t go camping. But, again, that’s mostly—we had a lot of cards and games that we played with our young friends.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And you hunted a lot.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, I did a lot of deer hunting and a lot of fishing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah. Well, you said that’s what brought you out here.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’m wondering if each of you, starting with Marjorie first this time, could describe a typical work day when you worked out on Site.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, let’s see. When I worked out in the Area it was a little different than in town, because I had to ride the bus. And of course, I think I got off about 6:00, and of course it was dark. And walked a couple blocks to the bus, and you paid a nickel for each way to go out to the Area, which was about 27 miles. And when you got there in the wintertime, it was dark. And you went in, and I worked in the B Plant, it was. And it was all cement, no windows. So you went in and it was dark. When you came out to go home, it was dark. So you never saw the sunshine until the weekend.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] In the summer, it was awful because not all the buses were air conditioned.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: None of them were. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, we had a few, I think, that were.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Not then.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, gosh. You were just soaked, you know, because it was so hot. 100 degrees, riding in this bus.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they allowed smoking on the buses. That was not good for us that didn’t smoke.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh you guys—both of you didn’t smoke?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Seems to, probably in the ‘50s, have been more of a rarity than a—or at least, seems like a lot more people smoked then.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: True.</p>
<p>Franklin: Especially, I can imagine, in the wintertime with closed windows, that would be pretty oppressive. So George, what about you? Describe a typical—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I worked at 2-East for the first nine months or so. And that was like her. Our 222-S lab, no windows in there. Get up early, ride the bus, go to the—where Stores is now, at the big bus lot there. So all of the buses would go into there, and you would get off your bus and take the appropriate 200 Area bus or whatever, 100 Area bus. And likewise, when you came home, you’d come back to that bus lot, get off the buses, and get to your route.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that time on the bus included in your work day?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was my time.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was included in your time. It was not included in your time?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, it was not included in--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, it was not included.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: So that was just considered part of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that a pretty fast transition though, from catching the bus by your home to go to the lot to then get on the other bus—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was fast.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was pretty efficient?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And the buses were pretty much on time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: For some reason, I mostly had express buses where we didn’t stop at the bus lot.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, later on, yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. And so then you said you’d get on the appropriate bus to the Area, and then—take me forward from there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Okay. We get on the bus there and I went into the lab, and that was an all-enclosed building again, no windows. And I did, oh, nuclear—not nuclear but radioactive waste disposal and things like that. We’d get a bus from 300 Area about once a week or twice a week and they would—not a bus, a tanker truck. Sorry about that. A tanker truck would come in and I unloaded that into some of our special waste tanks out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were these the tanks in the Tank Farms, or are these different tanks?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, that wasn’t the Tank Farm; that was the special area just for the 300 Area waste.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what would you do with the waste?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, the tanker truck would back up to a big nozzle, and I’d hook up the nozzles and drain the tanks. Let it drain for an hour or whatever it was, and then go back out and unhook the thing and wave the driver on.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what would be done with the waste at that facility?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was just stored.</p>
<p>Franklin: Just stored. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think we—outside of doing some sampling, which I didn’t do, that was it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Would that eventually go into the ground then?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And that’s when it would eventually go into the single-shell or double-shell tanks.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Sooner or later.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sooner or later, find its way there. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah. And then I transferred into drafting and that was downtown in the 760 Building.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Of course that way I could ride to work or walk to work.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that’s like pen-and-table drafting, right? Like on a drafting board.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Drafting board, yes. That was kind of nice, because I could ride bicycle, walk or take the car, whatever. And I’d get home at least when it was daylight.</p>
<p>Franklin: That seems like kind of an interesting job shift from handling waste to more of a technical thing like drafting.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, yeah, well, what started that, my boss wanted some sketches of flow diagrams and stuff like that. I said, I can do them. I did them, and he was impressed with them, and he says, you ought to be in drafting. And he led the way for me.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. What did you go to school for?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Engineering.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, just engineering in general?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and Marjorie, did you attend college?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. How did you gain the training for accounting and bookkeeping? Was it just all on the job?</p>
<p>Marjorie: Yeah, on-the-job training. And you could advance back then. Nowadays if you didn’t have a college degree, well, I don’t think you would go as far.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, yeah. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Another thing—I also took a lot of classes. GE at this time, they had engineering folks which would give us classes in various subjects.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that over here in the East Building? Or was it different?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I can’t remember exactly where it was. Sometimes—I think it was the Federal Building, I think it was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Just various things that would help me in my work and help me in my promotions, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Interesting. That’s kind of a—seems like so much was provided to workers in terms of training and housing, and I think it seems foreign to a lot of workers today to think of a company being that kind of paternal—caring, paternalistic almost. It’s kind of the vibe I get off that era of Hanford’s history.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah. While I was downtown in drafting there, we worked on—I was in the piping squad. We worked on facilities in the 100 Areas, 200 Areas, not 300 Areas then. So I got to know pretty much all the areas. And I went out to visit them on lots of times where you have to go out and see what is really there. You go look at old drawings and it may not be the same.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because you’re not looking at the as-builts.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: You’re looking at the older—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right, and so consequently, we made a fair number of trips out to the various sites regardless of where they were.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so you got, then, to see the whole site pretty well.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think I did, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Marjorie, what was—well I’m going to ask this question of both of you, but we’ll start with Marjorie. What was the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford?</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, [LAUGHTER] I’m not sure how to answer that. It was a good place to work. And it, you know, paid well. And I guess that’s, you know, the main thing. I wasn’t out for some big career or anything like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And, George, what about you? What were some of the more challenging or rewarding aspects of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, you know, we went through a lot of companies: GE, Westinghouse, Atlantic Richfield, Isochem—maybe another one in there. But the fact is, I never lost a day of work throughout 36, almost 37 years. I was never laid off. But I think the most rewarding was being recognized for my work. Being asked to take all these promotions. I think that was rewarding, to me. Must be doing something right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah. Great. Did the nature of the work at Hanford ever unsettle either of you? The, you know, just the--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kramer: Oh, you mean—</p>
<p>Franklin: The amount of chemical or nuclear waste or the possibility of—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Radiation.</p>
<p>Franklin: --Soviet attack or anything like that. Did that ever—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, you know, when we first moved here, the Army was still here.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Camp Hanford.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: At Camp Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they had Nike missile sites up on—not Badger, but—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: White Bluffs, out that way, didn’t they, across the river?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, White Bluffs, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: Rattlesnake?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, Rattlesnake! And you wondered about that. Planes would fly over every now and then. But other than that, as far as being attacked, no. And radiation-wise, I’ve learned to respect it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I never got involved in any serious things even though I went into some bad places, probably. But I never had—in the various canyons and stuff of the buildings. But never had any problems.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And same for you, Marjorie?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and of course I wasn’t out there all that long. But I remember when we used to travel quite a bit. When we would travel and people would, oh, where do you work? And I would never say Exxon Nuclear; I would say Exxon. [LAUGHTER] Because they thought we glow in the dark, probably. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, that seems to be—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was very common, regardless of where you went. Like, say, we travel a lot and you stand up and introduce yourself. You didn’t want to say a great deal, because they figured you—they didn’t want to be around you. You glow.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Some people.</p>
<p>Franklin: Why do you think that endures? Because today, even today, that’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Ignorance. Ignorance of radiation, like in the paper here and now, they said, we’re the other Chernobyl. No! There’s not that possibility.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because our problem is mostly chemical.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s not so much nuclear. I mean, there’s radioactivity—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, there’s a lot of radioactivity; there’s no question.</p>
<p>Franklin: --but it’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But it’s not going to explode. It’s not that type.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, we won’t have a meltdown. At least we can say that much.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history? I’m thinking of like plants shutting down or starting up—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: President Kennedy—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --came out here. I can’t remember the year now.</p>
<p>Franklin: September 14<sup>th</sup>, 1963.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1963, yeah, ’63.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or 17<sup>th</sup>.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Anyway, I was there. We all bussed out to—was that 100-N?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: He was out in 100-N, wasn’t he?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: 100-N, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Wasn’t it?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: 100-N, I think, wasn’t it?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: He came to dedicate part of the steam generating—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You know, incidentally, I did the first working drawings, the scope drawings, of the piping of the major process piping of 100-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was a fantastic job. I know one time I did my drawings, got them and they decided, hey, that’s classified, after the fact. I had to go through, collect all of my drawings and everything and then I had to secure my drafting boards and stuff like that.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But we did it.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I can remember in the 703 Building when I worked downtown in 19—I think it was ‘55 or ’56—Ronald Reagan came. Because we had the General Electric Theater.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s right!</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And he came through our building and was talking to everybody.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you get to meet him?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, uh-huh.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And did you also? Did he go to the Site?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I don’t—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I think you were out in the Area.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was out in the Area then. I don’t think I—I knew he was here, obviously. He was on—he toured some buildings, but I didn’t get to see him.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s pretty—that’s interesting. I’d heard he’d come, but I hadn’t met anybody who actually really—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, he came through our 703 Building—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So I imagine that was—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Where finance was.</p>
<p>Franklin: --quite an interesting thing to have a Hollywood celebrity coming to Hanford. And so did you both go to see President Kennedy when he came to dedicate the N Reactor?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t get to. Did you?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You were not working at Hanford then, I don’t think.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, no.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But anyway, the whole company [LAUGHTER] all the people were there that could be excused. They just bussed everybody out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And were you one of those people?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes, I was one of them people.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you kind of describe that scene?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, he was on the podium which was quite a ways away from me there. And he gave quite a talk, you know. Of course the excitement of hearing your President—or seeing your President was kind of interesting. And I really don’t know what he said anymore.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But I thought that was a major highlight. Another one, probably, is when General Electric decided they were going to leave.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And that was in mid-‘60s, right?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: ’65, probably.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that sounds right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: ’66, maybe.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: So describe that. How was the mood around Hanford and around Richland? Because General Electric had been so prominent.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it affected George quite a bit.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, it affected my pension.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Quite a bit. You know, I worked for over 36 years, and for those ten years that I worked under GE, that’s not included in my final pay—pension.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So I get—I don’t know. Very little a month for those ten years. It’s in a separate pension fund.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah. Why is that? That seems a little—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Because you were under—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The government works in strange and mysterious ways. And there were lawsuits and stuff like that, trying to get them to include our years in the master plan.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It was—one of the main reasons was you weren’t 35 yet.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s another thing, yeah, I wasn’t 35 yet. That was a condition to get vested.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: That was the cutoff to get that--</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: --included in your seniority.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you could start to invest, right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, vested. Anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And of course the big thing when Westinghouse came over to retake all of the—together—you know, GE split up and then we had various split-up companies, and then all of the sudden we’re back together again.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it seems like—one other person I interviewed a little bit ago remarked at how the contracting agency, the government doesn’t always seem to know—like, it tries one big contractor, and then it tries to split it up a bunch, and then they go back to one big contractor, and then they want to split it up a bunch. So I’m wondering if you—either you or both of you—can talk about that shifting of contractors and how that impacted your work and your life.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, in my case, same job. [LAUGHTER] Same boss, same everything. There wasn’t much new. Different name on the paycheck, obviously.</p>
<p>Franklin: But your unit stayed pretty intact throughout the change?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. There were no major reorganizations at first because of the takeovers of the different companies.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And, Marjorie, what about you—so you worked initially those first few years, and then later on you worked for Exxon Nuclear, which—was Exxon Nuclear, were they a contractor or a subcontractor, or were they just aligned with—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They were a private company.</p>
<p>Franklin: A private company, okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they just made nuclear pellets.</p>
<p>Franklin: So they were like a service company for Hanford?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no, they made nuclear fuels for reactors all over the world.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So they weren’t a Hanford company.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were private.</p>
<p>Franklin: So they were just in the same industry—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and so—and it was Exxon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It was Jersey—called Jersey Nuclear when I first started out.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And then it was Exxon. And then they changed to Advanced Nuclear Fuels under Exxon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And then Siemens bought them in 1989, I believe.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked for them for a couple years. Nothing really changed. And then I retired with Siemens Corporation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Which was a really pretty good deal, because they have really good benefits. German companies do.</p>
<p>Franklin: They are very well-known for that, yeah.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that sounds like a pretty decent deal.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I think they worked half-time, because when we wanted to call them up in Germany and talk to them about something, it seems like they were either on vacation or they had a holiday. [LAUGHTER] They were never there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Any memories of the, like, social scene or local politics, or just any—you know, either before the great selling, you know, the privatization or afterwards in Tri-Cities? Or actually, let me be more specific. I’m wondering if either of you can tell me about some of the protest activity that took place, or if you remember that, in the beginning in the late ‘60s and end of the ‘70s. Both kind of the protests that were pro-Hanford and anti-Hanford.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, we never did get involved in any of them. I didn’t.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I didn’t, either. There were no major protests that I really remember. I know one time, there was a few of them along the road when we went out before you get to 300 Area. They couldn’t get out very far then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But I didn’t really take too much interest in them. I figured they weren’t hurting anything.</p>
<p>Franklin: So the Tri-Cities up until the late ‘60s was pretty segregated in terms of where African Americans could live. Even though they could work at Hanford, they couldn’t always live in Richland for a while. And I’m wondering if you guys could—did you observe that kind of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --that Civil Rights action and kind of some of that segregation before the Civil Rights?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I remember that there were a few blacks—I don’t know what you—blacks going to the high school and stuff when my daughter was going. Well, the Mitchells were here, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, CJ Mitchell.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: CJ Mitchell.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And Cameron Mitchell was in my daughter’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Daughter went to school with him.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And she was good friends with him, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and he was one of the first—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: --people to get someone to sell him a house in Richland. He had a lot of struggle getting that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I don’t know what they did with the housing—government housing—if they gave it to—I guess maybe they didn’t give it to black people.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They had no choice then.</p>
<p>Franklin: I believe they had to live in east Pasco until the ‘60s.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think they could live in Kennewick, either.</p>
<p>Franklin: No, Kennewick--</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Kennewick was very bad.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, they had the sundown. The sundown laws.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. When we first moved here, I’d become good friends with an African. And we used to play cards with him, and go places with him. I thought we were well-accepted.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But he lived in Pasco, didn’t he?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. He did not live in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But—I said it was very plain to us, that—I say, Kennewick was very bad. And they didn’t even want to go to Kennewick, the colored folks.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to get out of town before, like you say, sundown.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Which is not very nice.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But, you know, it’s not nice to say, but they knew their place.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, well, yeah, they knew where they could go and couldn’t—where they were welcome and where they were not. Yeah, that squares pretty well with the historical record. Thank you for that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: When our daughter—after she graduated from high school, she went to WSU. And then she graduated from there. She got a nursing degree, and she went to Seattle and worked. And one of her comments once when she called me up, and she says, Mom, we really led a sheltered life in Richland, you know? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s interesting. I wonder if you could unpack that a little bit more. What would have been so sheltered about Richland for her?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I think, you know, she went to Seattle and got a job. And her first job was in the King County jail. She was a nurse in the clinic. And she saw all these prisoners and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Not the best clientele.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And that was one of her comments after she called me up—called me up and said, you know, we really led a sheltered life, after seeing all these homeless people and skid row, and—you know. It’s just different.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because I imagine Richland would have been a pretty solid middle class, mostly white—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still is majority, but mostly white, middle class. Pretty safe. If you didn’t work at Hanford, you didn’t live in Richland until 1958. And I imagine after that, it was pretty slow to change where most people who lived here worked at Hanford for—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think the police had a good—made their presence known, in a good way.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And I think that was the difference between Seattle living and outskirts of Seattle or wherever she lived.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, I imagine it would be in general an easier community to police where you knew everyone worked in the same place.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Everyone knew—or a lot of people knew everyone else, and you know it was—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But crime was very low.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, sure.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: First of all, you know the folks have clearances, things like that, that’s going to get a better grade of people. Because they went through all the rigmarole you have to go through.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I saved one of those questionnaires, those Q clearance deals. I still have it. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I left—when I filled mine out, I left two weeks of my life off of this—[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, no.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Of course it came back and they wanted to know where I was. [LAUGHTER] I was in transit to out here or something.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And so they wanted to know—</p>
<p>Franklin: Those forms went back, what, like ten years or something like that?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, it was—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Renewed or unless there was a need to upgrade.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: When I first filled it out, of course I was only like 20 years old. So I didn’t have that much to have to put on it. But they went back, and people told us, you know, we were from a small town and of course they told us, these people—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They were asking about you and all this—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, calling around.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They were wanting to know what was going on.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Yeah, I know, that’s—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Wanting to know where you went to school and where you worked back there. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I first got an L clearance when I came here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that a lower or higher—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s a lower grade. And then as soon as I transferred into drafting, I had to get a new clearance, a Q clearance, again. Which I had the rest of my time here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. Were they still any—I’m always a little fuzzy on my dates with this—were there any Atomic Frontier Days parades when you were here?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or were those over by the time that—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were here, and in fact, Sharon Tate—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, Sharon Tate was in that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: One of the first few years we were here, she was the Miss Tri-Cities.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Her dad was at Hanford, you know, Camp Hanford. He was an Army--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, that’s right, because I’ve always heard she was an Army—kind of an Army brat. Oh, really? That’s really interesting. I’ve oftentimes asked—I used to ask people about that question and it would miss a lot, so I kind of stopped asking about Sharon Tate. But that’s interesting that you remember seeing her?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, I remember they had parades down the main—one of the streets. I don’t remember which ones now.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you guys went to the Atomic Frontier Days and all of that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Why, certainly! Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, those were very colorful and kind of interesting events. Kind of wish I could have seen one of those in the flesh. Great. And so—gosh, you guys have already run down so many of my questions without even me needing to ask them.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: But I still have a couple. Could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy impacted your jobs, respectively? I’ll start with Marjorie.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, you just knew that you weren’t supposed to—you know, I was in finance. And so I saw all these numbers and all this stuff. And you just knew you weren’t supposed to talk about things like that. But other than that, you know, it didn’t really affect me all that much.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I know, going on vacation or something like that, or going back to Wisconsin. We’d go quite a bit. And, what do you do out there? And you know, in general terms you tell them. But I was trying to remember some specifics. I’m sure there were some to do with security.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It must have been very hard to work here in the ‘40s. [LAGUHTER] You didn’t know what you were doing, you know, you were building all this stuff.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we knew what we were doing, you know. What we were making and all this thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: You could talk about it to your coworker.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And not be afraid of being evicted from your home and losing your job.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I remember looking at an old paper. It said, big headlines: it’s bombs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes. Yes, that’s the <em>Richland Villager</em> from right after the Nagasaki bombing, yeah. Interesting. Do you remember, were there like searches or did they search people on the buses?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well--</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Going home. [LAUGHTER] A lot of times you just had to open your lunch pail up, and make sure there was nothing in it.</p>
<p>Franklin: You didn’t have any atoms in your pocket or anything?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They didn’t always look.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They didn’t always look, but every now and then they’d have a search day.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Kind of keep you on your toes.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And of course all of the cars at 300 Area where the major barricade was. You had to stop, open your trunks if you drove a car. And then if you went into the various—200 Areas, 100 Areas, you had to stop again or you parked your car in the parking lot outside and walked in. And if you went into the various buildings, like PUREX or like in the lab where I was there, you had a number and a radiation badge, and your name and a number you were assigned. When I went to 222-S, it was number ten. I must have got some big wheels for a number or something like that. I was ten. They would look you up to make sure in their file—they’d look at, make sure the picture matched you.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, and that would be every time you’d come in?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Every time you went in the building there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. That’s very tight security.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: When you—you said you had to go around the site a lot—how would you get around once you got—so you took the bus in, but how would you get from one area to the other?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Engineering department had cars—government cars.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And so then you’d just—could only travel in—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And we just traveled in government cars out to the various facilities.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. When did the bus service stop?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Good question. Let’s see.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Late ‘60s?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Hmm. Probably in that era.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Because when we built the new house, and it was in 1966, and you still rode the bus then.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: So I think it was in the late ‘60s.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I would say in the late ‘60s, it was.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Or early ‘70s.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so then—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And there was much frustration.</p>
<p>Franklin: To much frustration?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: On a lot of people’s part. Including mine.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really? Why was that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I loved that bus ride. I mean, I loved going out there for—it was changed to, I don’t know, 50 cents or something. It was higher price, anyway. The nickel was just to pay insurance and liabilities. But—so I had to drive my car out or get into a carpool, or whatever.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But then for a while, they stopped the service in town picking everybody up, and then you could go to the bus lot and catch a bus. For a while, for a few years.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, they stopped the rounds through town.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. That’s such an interesting structure of life, to have everybody in one town that all catches the bus, and—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] And work at the same—</p>
<p>Franklin: You know when the buses are coming and everyone kind of depends on it, and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s just such an interesting—seems almost kind of foreign to a lot of people today. And so you said that was kind of a chagrin that the bus—is that because you liked just not having to drive, or not—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I liked not having to drive. I knew that I had to be outside there at 6:00 or whatever it was every morning. And it was there. It was—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: You could read, you could do work—you could do all sorts of things.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: When I was manager out there for a while, I could do a lot of work on the bus.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I had my own philosophy. I did not like to take any work home. I had my briefcase and I would do a lot of stuff on the bus. That was 45 minutes of uninterrupted time, and I could get a lot of my work done.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, I bet. Yeah. Interesting. What would you either—both of you, sorry—what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? And I’ll start with you, George.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I think you’re doing part of it. [LAUGHTER] Let them know what’s going on. And you know, the kids never really knew what—really, what we were doing, I don’t think, in detail. Yeah, they knew in general. As I look back at the government—not too impressed.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really? Why is that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The stuff that goes on out there now—when we were—I was working, I felt I was doing a job. Things were going out—in the shops, things were going out the door. We were making things. Things were happening. I was proud of our work. Now I begin to wonder how long—you know, the Tank Farms have been undergoing their thing for years, and it’s going to be another amount of years before they do anything. It’s—not enough things are happening.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Marjorie, what about you? What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was just such a different sort of life, you know. You were kind of protected, I guess. You know, everybody, like, knew everybody, and you all worked at the same place, and your kids went to the schools in town. You went to the doctors that are in town. It was just a different sort of a—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, like your daughter had said maybe a little protected, sheltered.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Sheltered life, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s so interesting to me because—George, the thing you said about feeling like you’d done something—I’ve heard that from other interviewees who had worked in that transition period, who had worked when Hanford was producing and felt a real sense of accomplishment. And then kind of felt like it was mired down during cleanup and that the mission’s unclear, the work doesn’t progress. And Marjorie, it’s always been amazing to me to hear that, that it does seem like a really safe and peaceful place, but when you look at it kind of on—there’s a flipside to that, though. It’s amazing that there’s this safe, peaceful place next to nine nuclear reactors.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie: And you know—</p>
<p>Franklin: And you know, like a major target in the Cold War.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I guess that’s true. I don’t know. You just--</p>
<p>Franklin: But I think those two can exist side-by-side. That it could be, you know, a place of production but also of danger and a place of safety but also—you know, and of security. I just—it’s—there’s a lot of contradictions in Hanford that I think are really interesting that get brought out in these interviews. So thank you. Is there anything that I haven’t asked either of you about that you would like to talk about?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No. I’m sure I’ll think of some when I get home.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s very common. That happens all the time. I get emails a lot from people like--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --I wish I had said this.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, let’s see. I think when I was a shop engineer out there in the shops, best years of my life out there. Again, I felt proud that we were doing something, things were going out the door. I was responsible for a lot of critical measurements and things of—the jumpers, the tanks, and everything that we did in the shop. And then troubleshooting. There was some failures out there and I would go out to troubleshoot to see how we could fix things. Contaminated vessels and things like that. But those were good years. Best years I had out there. Management was good, but there are a lot more responsibilities. But those worked out, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Great.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I think the schools were—you know—were good.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: The kids had a good education, had good teachers.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, I’ve heard that a lot that people—there were a lot of well-educated people that worked at Hanford and at first Battelle—Hanford Labs, and then Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Labs. So that there was a high focus on education and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Another thing is, probably more so than now, but the school sports. Didn’t have too much else to do, so there was a lot of basketball games and football games and soccer games and all that sort of things that people went to. And they really supported the high school sports.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. You think that’s more then than now.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think more then than now. There was less to do.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, it was a little more of an isolated community.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And of course this year they went to the—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, this year’s different. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: --the tournaments. But when our daughter and son were in high school, they were always going to tournaments. And I always had to take kids and chaperone, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Ah, it was our pleasure.</p>
<p>Franklin: I see that you’ve brought some things. Would we be able to scan those and keep them with part of your—with your interview?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You can have those. That’s my work history.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, great, we’ll scan this and put this with your interview, too.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And she’s got some pictures there, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Are these family pictures, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, these are pictures of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, they’re--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Out at Hanford. This is one when I worked out at the Area. This was a million man hours without an accident, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow, okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they had a fashion show. And this is me right here in radiation outfit, you know, that we modeled the—we modeled the outfits they wore in the contaminated labs and all that.</p>
<p>Franklin: And which one are you? Are you the one in the white cowl?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I’m the one right—with the—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: All covered up.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, kind of a little hard to tell. That’s great. That’s a great picture. Ah, yup, General Electric Photo Division.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, would we be able to scan these and put them with your interview?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: That would be wonderful. Okay. Great. Well, thank you again, thank you both so much. ITts been a really excellent interview.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Good!</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: You did good.</p>
<p><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/cnCDk351BVY">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:57:59
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
B Plant
N Reactor
T Plant
Tank Farm
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
~1955-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
~1955-1991
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy
Sharon Tate
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-09-2016
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/25">George and Marjorie Kraemer, Oral History Metadata</a>
100 Area
1955
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
Award
Awards
B Plant
Battelle
Cold War
General Electric
Hanford
Kennedy
Kennewick
Mountain
Mountains
N Reactor
PUREX
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
Stores
T Plant
Tank Farm
Tank Farms
Theater
War
Westinghouse
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe4fc1a4c7495942bf447756ec5e85cfa.JPG
d98e592b247db687cb3749711ea3df5b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Douglas O’Reagan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Jensen
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. To start us off, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us?</p>
<p>Mark Jensen: My name is Mark Jensen, M-A-R-K, J-E-N-S-E-N.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Great. Okay. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Jensen on March 25<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be speaking with Mr. Jensen about his experiences working at the Hanford site and living in the Tri-Cities. To start us off, can you tell us a little bit about your life before you came to Hanford?</p>
<p>Jensen: Well, my mother moved to Richland to teach English at what was then Columbia High School, now Richland High School. She was a single mother with five children. So I started school at Jefferson Elementary in Richland in kindergarten. When I was in third grade, my mother remarried, and I was adopted by my new father. He was a long-time Hanford worker. Anyway, so I grew up in the Tri-Cities. We moved to Kennewick when I went into fourth grade, and I went through the Kennewick School District after that, and graduated from Kamiakin High School in 1974. Went to Washington State University, got a degree in forestry, thinking that would get me out of the Tri-Cities, because there aren’t any forests here. Unfortunately, there weren’t any jobs in forestry. So I came back home to live with my parents, and my dad mentioned that N Reactor was hiring reactor operators. So I applied, and got a job as a reactor operator.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What time frame would it have been that your mother moved here?</p>
<p>Jensen: I was five, so that would have been 1961.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay, great. Can you tell us about the schooling, the education, the schools in the Tri-Cities as you experienced them?</p>
<p>Jensen: Well, I went to Jefferson Elementary, like kindergarten through third grade. It was in an old building left over from World War II. It was probably a grade school built as part of the Manhattan Project. That’s all long since been torn down. Then when we moved to Kennewick, I went to Hawthorne Elementary school there. Building’s still there as far as I know. And then to Vista Elementary, then to Highlands Middle School—Highlands Junior High in those days. Then the Kamiakin High School which was brand new.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What was life like as a kid in Kennewick?</p>
<p>Jensen: It was pretty routine, I guess. Went outside and played in those days instead of staying inside for video games. It didn’t matter how hot it was outside, we’d go out and play baseball all day usually, and things like that. Then just going to school during the school year and doing whatever during the summer. When I was growing up, before my mother remarried, she would work in the summer and I was usually babysat by some of her students. After she remarried, then she stopped working during the summer. But I’m fairly certain that one of the reactor operators I worked with at N Reactor was one of my babysitters when I was second or third grade. But anyway.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: When you were sort of a teenager, what sort of stuff did you and your friends do for fun around the area?</p>
<p>Jensen: Usually, after doing our homework, we’d go outside and play basketball, every day, every night. We had a lighted basketball court. We’d play basketball all day Saturday and Sunday. When the weather was nicer, we’d play baseball or variants of baseball, since there were seldom enough people to make up a couple of teams. We used to go to baseball games—minor league baseball games—in the summer. A variety of different team names. There was a stadium in Kennewick called Sanders Jacobs Field that’s long since been demolished. That’s pretty much what we did, just mess around. Go bowling, things like that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Do you know what your step-father did at the Hanford site?</p>
<p>Jensen: He was a chemical engineer, and he worked at N Reactor and the older reactors designing systems for decontaminating the reactors. When I was in high school, he worked at the Tank Farms in the 200 Area. He was in charge of Tank Farm surveillance, and that was when the tanks started leaking—the older tanks first started leaking. So we got frequent telephone calls in the middle of the night that there was a leaking tank. Sometimes I’d hear my dad say something on the telephone, and the next day I would see that in the newspaper, as a Hanford spokesman said, kind of thing. That was kind of interesting.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So I guess you were aware of the future environmental issues pretty early on?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes. Yeah.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Did that impact your life at all? Or was it sort of in the background?</p>
<p>Jensen: It’s just the way things were.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So when you came back and were looking for a job and you first heard about this job at N Reactor, did you—was that something you were sort of excited about? Was it something you were--?</p>
<p>Jensen: It sounded interesting. I knew nothing about it. Not too many people knew reactor operators, although there were certainly plenty of them around here over the years. So I had no idea, really, what that job entailed. But it was a job, and it paid pretty good. So when it was offered to me, I accepted it.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What kind of skill sets did it end up requiring you to gain?</p>
<p>Jensen: I had to learn a lot about how to operate complex systems, do valving in a precise, controlled manner so it was done correctly. Not so much working with pumps, other than checking to make sure they were running properly. I didn’t have to do maintenance kind of things. Then once I got my certification in the control room, I had to learn how to operate all of the systems, use the controls in the control room to do that, set everything up properly, and what to do in case of an emergency, or a reactor scram, or upset. Try and keep the reactor from scramming, things like that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What kind of training was involved?</p>
<p>Jensen: We started out, once we got into the certification program, we went into what we called phase one training. That basically started off with fundamentals training. We got some math and chemistry. Didn’t hurt that I had chemistry in college. It’s kind of funny—the week or two weeks we had in chemistry, I think I learned more than the two semesters of chemistry in college, because the instructor was so much better for the fundamentals class than the professor I had at college. But it might have also been because I was older and a little more mature.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was that onsite at Hanford?</p>
<p>Jensen: It was onsite at Hanford, out at N Reactor. We had some chemistry, math, a little bit of electronics, things like that. Started learning some of the various systems at the plant. Then we went back on shift for several months. I can’t remember now how long, I mean this is almost 40 years ago, so it’s kind of hard to remember everything. So when we went back on shift, we were given a packet of stuff that we had to study on our own and learn while we were assigned to do other jobs throughout the plant. Then we went back into class, into phase two, and studied more systems, and started learning how things in the control room worked. I can’t remember if there were four phases or three phases, but each time after a phase ended, we had an exit exam. Then we went back to shift, with more stuff to do in between the regular job stuff. At the end of all of the phases, we took an eight-hour written exam. Theoretically, if you failed the written exam, they could fire you. Or they could just reassign you as a non-certified operator. Some people did that after they failed. They just said they didn’t want to continue. But generally they gave you a second chance. Well, I passed the first time, so didn’t have to worry about that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How long did that process take?</p>
<p>Jensen: Started probably in February or March of ’81. I was completely certified in June of ’82. So it was probably about a year and a half for the total process. But they were in a hurry to get people certified, because there were a lot of older operators who were getting ready to retire. So they needed to get people in there and get some experience before they lost too many of the older, experienced operators. So after the eight-hour written exam, we had to study for what we called the demonstration exam. That was in the control room, and an instructor would say, okay, Mark, how do you set this console up for operation? You are going to do this job, show me without actually doing it--because it was in the real reactor—how you would do it. Later on, we had a simulator that was pretty much an exact duplicate of the reactor, and then you could actually do the things in the simulator. But for my demonstration exam, it was just point out what you would do. When we passed that exam, we actually got a pay raise. We went from what we called a Grade 18 to a Grade 21, and got a nice little bump in pay. Then you studied for your oral exam. That one, you went before an oral board. There was a representative from operations, a representative from training, and a representative from nuclear safety. They all had a certain set of questions to ask, and any one of them could come in at any time with follow-up questions. So that—I think that took me six hours. And I passed that, so then I was a certified operator. Except that operations would not sign your certificate until you demonstrated that you could handle the jobs. So when I went back on shift, I was assigned to an experienced operator. So we rotated through various positions in the control room, and I followed him around. Initially, he would do things and tell me what he was doing. Then he would have me do it, but he would tell me what to do. And then when he was pretty satisfied I knew what I was doing, he would just sit back and let me figure out what I was doing. And then he must have told the control room supervisor I was ready, control room supervisor told the shift manager I was ready, and the shift manager recommended that my certificate be signed by the manager of operations. Then I could sit on consoles all by myself.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So was there an influx of younger operators at that point?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes, we had quite a few coming through. My certification class, we had three supervisor candidates, and I think we had seven operator candidates. One of them ended up not completing it. All of the rest passed. Some of them, it took them a couple attempts at the eight hour and maybe even the oral board to get certified. Then right after me, there was another class with a lot of other young people. So we got a lot of young people in there, and then that allowed some of the older operators to retire. I think some of them were hanging around a little longer than they might have wanted to otherwise, just because they knew they would have been shorthanded if they left.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was this all at N Reactor?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was it the same training program for all the reactors?</p>
<p>Jensen: Well, N Reactor was the only reactor left at the time. They had similar programs at the older reactors. But it evolved over time and got a little more detailed. We had a little more stuff on reactor physics. In the original days, it’s just, this is what you’re going to do, and nobody asked why, because it was all secret. It’s just, do this and keep this needle within this range, or whatever. Later on, you actually started to teach people what was happening. Some of the old operators complained about having some reactor physics stuff in there. Wah, we don’t need this stuff. And they were so good that it’s like, I don’t know that they really did need that. They just knew what to do when something went wrong. But the theory is it never hurts to have too much knowledge.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How many people were working at a given time in the actual reactor?</p>
<p>Jensen: In the control room, or—?</p>
<p>O’Reagan: That, and also—</p>
<p>Jensen: It’s easier for me to say in the control room, but I’ll estimate on the other.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure.</p>
<p>Jensen: Minimal shift in the control room was three operators and a control room supervisor, but we generally had four. There were three positions that had to be manned 24 hours a day when the reactor was operating. One of them, the nuclear console, where you actually controlled the reactor power level, we rotated two people in and out on that: two hours on and two hours off. If you only had three, then, I think the control room supervisor could give you relief. But you weren’t allowed to be there for more than two hours at a time. The other two consoles, you could be there for the whole eight hours on a shift. After my class and the next one went through, they had enough operators that we could get six or more operators in there, which gave a lot more flexibility, both for giving breaks to people, because it can get hard to keep your focus all night long, particularly on graveyard shift, when the reactor ran itself, pretty much. You’re just looking at things to make sure everything’s normal. That gets hard to do. It doesn’t sound like it would be, but it is. It’s pretty—puts a strain on you. So we had more people to give breaks. And extra certified operators to go out throughout the plant and check things, because they could recognize problems that non-certified operators might not. So, let’s say six of us in the control room, a control room supervisor, a shift manager. They were both certified control room shift manager/operators also. So they could do anything in the control room we could. And on a typical shift, you usually had a couple of electricians, a couple of instrument technicians, three or four health physics technicians—radiological control technicians—we called them radiation monitors in those days. Plus supervisors for all of them. And maybe a handful of millwrights, pipefitters, whatever. Mostly, the maintenance people did their work when the reactor was shut down. There wasn’t very much for them to do when the reactor was operating. But there was always work for instrument technicians. They would come in, and if something wasn’t working right in the control room, we’d call them in and they would tinker with it and try to fix it. Things like that. Day shift, there were a lot more people on there. And then during a reactor outage, much more work going on, particularly or the maintenance people. Because that’s when they were tear pumps down and rebuild them and things like that. So there were probably, on days, a couple hundred people out there. On shift, maybe thirty.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. So you’ve sort of been doing this, but could you walk us through a day in the life? What would sort of your average day involve?</p>
<p>Jensen: Okay. I’d come to work in the morning, a little bit before eight. And if I were assigned to the control room, I would go in and receive a turnover from the operator whose console I was taking over. We had a schedule that rotated us through. So if you’re one or two, you’re on the nuclear console. If you’re three, you’re on the double-A console. If you’re number four, you’re on the BN console, and I do not know what BN stands for. We used to joke that it was short for boring, because it was the most boring of the three consoles when we were at full power. So if I’m going to be on the nuclear console, I’d come in and there’s an operator who’s ready to leave. He gives me a turnover, tells me what the power level is, if we’re going to be raising power, if we’re at full power, we’re just going to hold power, if there’s any areas of the reactor that seem to want to lose power or gain power. So I get the turnover and then I take over. If I was on the nuclear console, I would work for two hours, and the other operator would come in, and I would give him a turnover and he would take over. And then I would usually give breaks to the other operators, unless we had enough other people to give them breaks. Anytime you take over, you’d get a turnover for what’s going on. Worked the nuclear console for two days, then you’d go to the double-A console. The double-A console controlled the reactor pressure and the primary coolant pump speed, and sending steam to the Washington Public Power Supply System. So you had this big console, went around like this and like this, and there were separate sections for each of the steam generator cells. We had six—five operating at any one time. Occasionally we ran with four operating. We never did all six. There was a reason why; I can’t remember what the reason why was. But always had one in reserve. That one was a pretty busy console during startups and shutdowns. I had full power. It was look around, look at all of the drive turbines for the primary coolant pumps and make sure they’re running at the proper RPM, look at the pressurizer level and make sure it’s at 23 feet. Got very busy on a reactor scram—lots of stuff to do there. And after the day on the double-A console, we went to the BN console. That monitored the secondary coolant system, so we had water coming back from the Washington Public Power Supply System. We sent them steam, they sent back condensate to us. Then we had a secondary system to maintain the pressure of the main steam header. So we had to watch that, plus we had to watch the rupture monitor system, which would check the radiation levels in the coolant water outlet from the reactor tubes. There were 1,003 tubes with fuel in them. The system would compare the radiation level between two adjacent tubes, and if one of them was higher than the other, a red light would come on on this panel. Then you’d go over and push the button to reset it. They’re coming on and off all the time. But if we had a rupture, that meant there was a leak in the cladding on the fuel. Usually, it was a little small pinhole; sometimes—and I never saw this—the welded-on endcap would blow off. Uranium, normally, is not very soluble in water, but when the water’s really hot, then it’s really soluble. And we’re running at 600 degrees or so for the coolant water. So if you had a rupture, you could start dissolving the uranium very rapidly. That’s got all of the fission products in it from the uranium atoms that have split, which are highly radioactive. So you could completely contaminate the primary coolant loop. So you needed to catch a rupture before it progressed too far. That was a frustrating job because those lights are coming on and off all the time. You got to look at those, and it was kind of a bad design, because that panel was here, the other panel was over there, and you had to keep looking back and forth. So that’s why we’d call it the boring console. It was pretty boring at full power. A lot of work there, again, on a reactor startup. We had to set things up to control the main steam header pressure, and that was a lot of work. So it was kind of fun, then. But full power, it was kind of boring. After we cycled through, if we had more than four operators, then we’d have two days where we’re—you could either study, because we always had to maintain our certification, and we had quarterly requalification classes and every two years we had to recertify. Or you could just be assigned to go out in the plant and do various jobs, help out—if it’s needed somewhere, help out some of the operators who were still studying to be certified operators, help train them, things like that. And then you just kept rotating through that. If we had an outage, we only had two places manned in the control room. One was the double-A console, and the other one was the communications console. So you kept contact with everybody throughout the plant, and made PA announcements if need be. Just let people know what’s going on. If we were in charge/discharge operations, you might be assigned to work on the charge or discharge elevator, to set it up for refueling the reactor. Or just—if it’s not a charge/discharge outage or we’re already done with that, you might be going in the rod rooms and doing some valving to assist the millwrights who might be repairing control rod issues and things like that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I saw you had some pictures there. Could you walk us through some of what those are?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yeah. Here is a picture. I found this online in the Hanford system a while back, and I was really surprised. That’s me, and I don’t remember posing for this picture. But I am on the charge elevator here. This is the wall, and it’s opposite the reactor and it’s a shield wall and each of these things here are plugs. You can open one up on the elevator side and on the other side, there was a really large elevator called the W work elevator. It actually came off a World War II aircraft carrier for lifting airplanes up to the flight deck. They could pull a plug out there, and they would run a tube through this penetration. Then you would mate it up with the process tube in the reactor. That’s how you refueled. They must have had a photographer up there taking pictures to show other people what goes on there. That was my assignment, and so I obviously posed for this picture, but like I say, I don’t remember doing this at all.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Is that your usual outfit when you were working?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes. Those are called anti-C clothes, or—original Hanford terminology was SWP clothing, for Special Work Procedure. During World War II, you didn’t want to say that this was to protect against contamination, because this is all secret what we’re doing. So you’re doing a special work procedure, so you have to wear the special work procedure clothes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So that’s a second pair of gloves there?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yeah. I would be wearing two pairs of coveralls, a hood, two pairs of gloves and some rubber shoes. And underneath the rubber shoes there’s some canvas booties. So this is not a real high contamination job. If we were actually refueling the reactor, I’d be wearing plastic raingear over that. We used to wear a face shield to keep water out of our face. Later on, we had a hood with a blower unit that provided air so we didn’t suffocate, and that kept water off our face. So that’s about as good as I could get on the elevator. This picture was taken of our crew in the control room. We had started a straight day shift crew. It was so we had more time for training. We worked Monday through Thursday in the control room, and every Friday we had training. And the rotating shifts, when they came in on days, they worked Friday, Saturday and Sunday in the control room, and then during the week they had training. We formed up this brand new shift. They let it out by seniority, and there weren’t that many people who wanted to do it. Some people, strangely enough, really liked shiftwork. So I managed to get on the first crew. And on our very first day working together as a crew, we had what we call a WPPSS turbine trip—the Washington Public Power Supply System bought our steam, and they had two turbines, and one of their turbines tripped. That had happened before, and the reactor had never managed to ride through that without scramming. Well, we kept the reactor from scramming. And I was on this console here—this is the nuclear console. I was controlling the reactor power level. When their turbine dropped off, the main steam header pressure goes up. This is getting a little technical, but—</p>
<p>O’Reagan: No, that’s great.</p>
<p>Jensen: The main steam pressure goes up high. That sits on top of the steam generators. When the pressure’s high, water doesn’t boil as easily. And when water boils, you get heat exchange. So we are sending hotter water back through the reactor. That is not as good a moderator as the cooler water. So the reactor power went down very fast. So I had to start pulling control rods to make up for that. In low-enriched reactors, like any of the Hanford reactors, when you lose power rapidly, you start building up a fission product called xenon which is a neutron poison. It absorbs neutrons better than anything else. At equilibrium power, we’re making xenon at a certain rate, and it’s destroyed as soon as it’s made by absorbing neutrons. So the net amount of it in the reactor is zero. But if we lose power, we’re still producing it for several hours at the old rate. But we don’t have as many neutrons in there, so the reactor power will go down and it will just make it worse. So you have to pull rods very fast. So that’s what I had to do. My part was to keep the reactor from going down so far that the xenon would take it all the way down. The other operators were working to keep the main steam header pressure from going up too high, because we had a scram trip on that, because you didn’t want to rupture the steam header. The people controlling the primary coolant loop pressure had to do work on that. It was very exciting. But we survived it, and so they took this picture as a commemoration. One of the people involved was on the nuclear console when they took the picture and he didn’t want to be in the picture. So he’s not in there. But I like this, because if you know what you’re looking at, you can actually see that the reactor’s operating. There’s some indications there that the reactor’s at its 4,000 megawatt power level. And it’s one of the few pictures I’ve ever seen where you can tell the reactor was operating. Then, almost a year later, the exact same thing happened again, and I was in the same place. It was really easy the second time, because I knew exactly what to do. So they took a picture again, for all of us. This is the double-A console. Kept these all these years. As long as I’ve got these up here, this is an aerial photo of the N Reactor complex. Let me see. This is the reactor building right here. Make sure I’m not looking at things backwards. This building over here is the Washington Public Power Supply System. You can kind of see over here there’s some lines that go over, and those are the steam lines going over to them. They bought the steam from us and then sent the condensate back after they ran it through their turbines.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How much did you have to communicate with them?</p>
<p>Jensen: Frequently. We called them up--any time we were going to do something that might affect the power level, we would call them up, tell them we’re going to do that. If they were going to do something that might affect the condensate coming back, they would let us know. They would give us some numbers. From there, power generation, which we would compile into a daily report, I think that was the basis for how much money they paid us for the steam. Things like that. So we were in constant contact with them. Usually it was the operator on the double-A console who would communicate with the—we called them Whoops in those days. They didn’t like being called Whoops. Now it’s Energy Northwest. But that’s a habit that’s hard to break. I still want to call them Whoops. And we didn’t mean it anything derogatory in those days, but—</p>
<p>O’Reagan: When you said that the turbine tripped, would that seize it up? What does that involve?</p>
<p>Jensen: I’m not really sure why it tripped. They may have had some valves—steam admittance valves close or something. If they told us why it tripped at the time, I can’t remember. This was 1987 or so. So it was quite a while—almost 30 years ago. The second trip—not sure if it was the same cause or not. I know one time they had a turbine trip and we didn’t survive that one. [LAUGHTER] It was kind of funny. Somebody was sweeping in their control room, and the broom fell and hit a switch and caused the turbine to trip off. So on that reactor outage, they paid for everything we did to get the reactor back up. We had a special charge code. Because it was their fault, so they’re paying for it.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: That would, I guess, give the reactor xenon poisoning and they couldn’t start up for a certain amount of time?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes. If we scrammed from full power, theoretically, you could pull control rods almost immediately and override the xenon building up. But we had a mandated one-hour hold if we scrammed from full power. And that’s so that you will make sure it wasn’t a spurious scram. If it’s something that’s actually not working correctly, so it would be unsafe to operate, you can figure that out. And by doing that—waiting that one hour, it gets impossible to start the reactor up. So our minimum downtime from full power was generally about 23 hours—23 to 24 hours. If we could figure out what the problem was and get it fixed, then we started up the next day. If I was something serious, it might take a few more days, or several days, to figure out what the problem is or correct the problem. And then when we started up, it was kind of interesting, because we had the control rods pulled almost completely out of the reactor before the reactor went critical. And then as the power goes up, you’re pushing control rods in, rather than pulling them out to raise power, until you get to a point—it’s called xenon turnaround—where you’ve burned up all of the xenon that was in the reactor, and now the reactor’s making more of the xenon and then they start coming back out. So those were actually really fun.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How often did the reactor scram?</p>
<p>Jensen: N Reactor was getting kind of old by the time I was there. Some of the equipment was really old, old technology, and getting a little hard to maintain. We usually had two or three scrams in a particular operating run. I’m not really sure how many, because, again, it’s been so long. We would typically operate for a month. And we were in plutonium weapons-grade production mode, and so we only operated for a month, and then we would shut down and about a third of the reactor. But it was unusual to go an entire cycle without at least one scram. And usually they were spurious ones. The ones that caused a lot of them were the flow monitor system, which was a pretty old system. If somebody slammed a door or something somewhere, the instruments would vibrate, and it would give a false indication of low flow, and the reactor would scram. It only took one of the 1,003 flow monitor devices to cause a reactor scram. So that was kind of touchy there.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: And that was automated?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yeah, it was automated. You had this big panel with all these 1,003 dials. Normally, we never changed them. If we swapped steam generator cells out—like cell five was out for years until it got re-tubed, and then we put that one in and took another one out so they could re-tube that one. And we had to adjust all of those dials. Oh, that was a boring job—get them all set exactly right, and then somebody has to go through and check them all. If we ran in that mode with that same balance of steam generators, we didn’t have to do that every startup.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: In the pictures with the other operators, could you just tell us about one or two of the other folks you were working with?</p>
<p>Jensen: Okay. This is Dennis Real. Hopefully he won’t mind that I mentioned his name. He still works at Hanford. He started a little bit before me. This gentleman is Bill Terhark. He was a very, very experienced operator. He was one of the ones that you really wanted to have in the control room when things went bad, because he knew what to do all the time. He had so much experience. He went back to the 1950s, operating—probably operated at every one of the reactors. This is Fred Butcher, Jr. His dad had also been a reactor operator, Fred Butcher, Sr. And that’s me, and this is our control room supervisor, Glen Buckley.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Do you know anything about their backgrounds? Were they also—I guess the one who had most experience probably trained in reactors, but were they all engineers mostly?</p>
<p>Jensen: No, no. Dennis had been a paramedic or EMT before he started working at the reactor. I’m not sure about Fred, what he did. Bill had graduated from high school, joined the Air Force, came out of the Air Force, got a job at Hanford. Typically, in the ‘40s and ‘50s, they did not hire engineers to be—and I don’t know what Glen’s job was—or what his background was, before. Most of us, except the older operators had college of some sort or another. When I hired on, they were hiring people usually with a couple years or more of college.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So you were there through the end of N Reactor, is that right?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes. In 1987—well, 1986—I think it was in April, was the Chernobyl accident. Chernobyl, although really was not similar at all to N Reactor, everybody thought it was, because both reactors are moderated by graphite instead of light-water. So everybody looked at graphite—that must be the cause of why Chernobyl blew up. Well, it blew up because it was a really poor design, and it was poorly operated, and they had a really unusual transient situation and then they had a steam explosion that tore the reactor apart. Well, we decided we would make some safety upgrades. They decided we’re going to shut down on January 7<sup>th</sup>, 1987. Six months of safety upgrades, then we’d start back up. Well, we pretty much knew we were never going to start back up again. They did do all the safety upgrades, spent millions of dollars on them, but—anyway, so we came in on January 7<sup>th</sup> knowing that this is probably the last day of operation for the reactor, and it was our job to shut it down. I was on the double-A console that day. It would have been nice if I had been on the nuclear console, to be the guy actually putting the rods in, but that was Dennis. So we shut the reactor down. Took about an hour. We still had fuel in the reactor for a good almost two years before we defueled the reactor. Because we were going to start up again. And then finally they said, no, we’re going to defuel the reactor and we’ll go on wet layup. So we still had water pumping through the pipes, keep everything wet. Because if you let it drain of water and then it’s damp in there, then things will start to rust. But if you have water flowing through there, that wouldn’t happen. So we went for a few months where we kept all of the pumps running and stuff like that, but no fuel in the reactor. And then they said, well, now we’re going to go into dry layup. So we drained the primary coolant loop and all the other systems, and then we had big fans blowing hot air through there to keep moisture from condensing in there. The thought was, maybe we’ll get the order to start up again. And then they just said, nope. Pulling the plug. Reactor is abandoned, and it’ll go into decontamination and decommissioning. And it’s essentially been torn down now, and what’s left of it—the reactor block itself—is all cocooned. Just like most of the other old reactors.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What happened to your and the other reactor operators’ careers at that point?</p>
<p>Jensen: [SIGH] Well, that was kind of a scary time. People thought we’re going to get laid off. Some people quit and went back to school. I remember one guy went to school and got a doctor’s degree in optometry and became an optometrist. There was some programs to help people with that, some money to help people go to college and get something else. Some people just found other jobs and left. And then I ended up staying. I was getting bored with being an operator at a reactor that wasn’t operating, and there wasn’t even any fuel in the reactor. But we still had all the stored fuel, and they needed somebody to be what they called the criticality safety representative, to work with operations and with the criticality safety analyst to make sure we’re still storing that fuel safely, so we don’t have any inadvertent criticality accident. Not very likely, but it could conceivably still happen. So I got that job, and in addition to that I was doing other stuff that you would call nuclear safety work. So I ended up becoming, to all intents and purposes, a nuclear safety engineer, even though I don’t have an engineering degree. And I’ve been doing that ever since.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Who is that, technically, that you were working for at that point? Was it Battelle?</p>
<p>Jensen: No. Initially I worked for UNC Nuclear Industries. That was UNC parts stands for United Nuclear Corporation. They had the contract to run the reactors. In those days, Rockwell ran the 200 Areas for the Tank Farms and stuff like that, and the processing plants. So they ran the PUREX Plant that was extracting plutonium from our fuel. Battelle operates the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, and that does research and design. Right after we shut down, DoE announced that they were going to consolidate all of the contracts. Westinghouse got that contract, so I worked for Westinghouse at the time I got into nuclear safety. Westinghouse went through a contract period and then a renewal period, and DoE typically does not renew anybody’s contract—nowadays anyway—more than once. So Westinghouse left, and then they announced a bid for a new contract. The Fluor Corporation won that one, and so I worked for Fluor for several years. They went through—I think they went through two and a half. DoE gave them an extension on the second done until they could get everything in place. And then the contract was won by the CH2M Hill Company, and that’s who I work for now.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Does it make much difference when one becomes—</p>
<p>Jensen: WE used to joke the only difference it makes is in the color of the paycheck. It makes a little bit of difference, because you get some upper management coming in, and they have different ideas on how things should be done. We all joke that we have to educate them on how things actually are done. That’s only half-joking because it’s different than anything else. Fluor had some subcontractors who had never done work for Department of Energy before. So they wanted to do things the way you do it in the commercial nuclear industry. And it’s like, you don’t get to do it that way—you do it the way DoE tells you to do it. So we kind of had to educate them. But it’s a little bit different. There’s a little bit of different philosophy every time.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was there ever any kind of either interest or communication with the commercial sector, in terms of learning or teaching any particular things?</p>
<p>Jensen: We did a little bit. I cannot remember the name of the organization, but it’s an organization that compiles knowledge from commercial nuclear reactors all over the country, and the disseminates that to help everybody. We had some people who would go to meetings there, so I guess we became a member of this group. I never was involved in that, but—So we would hear things that happened at other plants and then see if there were some lessons learned that we could apply. But N Reactor was so different than a commercial reactor that sometimes things that happened at N Reactor, they wouldn’t be able to use at a commercial reactor and vice versa.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How secretive was your work?</p>
<p>Jensen: Not much. There were a few things—security stuff was classified. But what we were doing was no longer secret, hadn’t been secret since 1945. I had to have a clearance—it was a secret level clearance. Mostly that was just to make sure I was trustworthy and wouldn’t sabotage the plant or something. Very rarely did I actually see any information that was classified secret.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I would assume, though, that the plutonium itself—I guess you didn’t see the plutonium until it got through the PUREX Plant?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yeah, well I never saw it. I’ve never seen plutonium. All of that stuff—how it was handled, how it was stored—that’s all part of the security thing, and that was all classified. And would still be, to this day, except we don’t have any plutonium at Hanford—not in any discrete form that you can do anything with, anyway.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So what is it you’re doing again? Could you give us more detail on what you’re doing or what you did subsequent to being a reactor operator?</p>
<p>Jensen: I worked in nuclear and criticality safety for N Reactor until we shipped all of the fuel over to the fuel storage basins at the K East and K West Reactors and I moved over there. I worked in criticality safety for that. When they were storing the fuel, that was fairly easy, because they weren’t doing anything. Then they decided they needed to get the fuel out of the basins because they’re close to the river, and the K East Basin had leaked at least once and maybe twice in the past. So the contaminated water gets into the groundwater and eventually gets out to the river. So we needed to get the fuel off the river, so they built a storage facility in the 200 East Area. We had to build a whole system to take the fuel out of the basin and put it in shielded casks and ship it over thee. So there was a lot of work on that, and all of that had to be set up to prevent criticalities. And also nuclear safety, which is more concerned with releases of radiological stuff to the atmosphere. So you need to keep those releases down below certain guidelines that DoE provides to protect the public.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So was this at all part of this amelioration cleanup efforts at that point?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yeah, that’s the whole goal that we’re working towards: get all of the fuel out of the reactor basins. So we got it all out of the K East Basin first, and then that’s actually been destroyed—the basin has been completely dug up and destroyed, and the area backfilled. The reactor’s prepared for cocooning, but hasn’t been, because they ran out of funding. So it’s in a safe, stable condition right now. K West Basin is empty of fuel, but it has sludge. I still do some work for 100 K, although mostly I work at the Plutonium Finishing Plant now. They’re going to move all the sludge out, and then they’ll do the same thing to the K West Basin that they did at K East. And basically, all over Hanford, that’s what they’re doing is cleaning things out, and getting them ready for demolition. So I work at PFP now in nuclear criticality safety there, and they’ve got miles and miles of ductwork. Some big pipes and some little pipes that are all contaminated with plutonium, and they have to carefully take all that stuff out. Get enough of that out so they can actually start tearing the building down.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Are there any general ways, whether it’s the type of people working there, or morale, or whatever, that the work at the Hanford site has changed over the time you’ve been there?</p>
<p>Jensen: [SIGH] During the operating days, it was fun. Actually fun to go to work and do something that you thought was productive. I mean, you can argue whether you thought we should have been making plutonium for nuclear weapons or not, but the job was very interesting. When the reactor shut down, the morale went down quite a bit, because, for one, people thought they were going to lose their jobs, and two, it’s like, well, even if we stay here for decommissioning, that’s not going to be anywhere near as interesting. And it isn’t. It has its own interesting aspects to it. But mostly, people are pretty professional and here’s a job, we’re going to get all of the fuel out of K East. So people went and worked on that, and we’re going to get all the fuel out of K West, so you work on that. While you’re doing that, it’s satisfying, because you’ve got a goal to work for. PFP—it’s a very difficult job. I think the morale kind of goes up and down. We have successes and then there’s problems you run into. But in a way that’s what makes a job interesting, if there’s problems that you can resolve and get through it, and then you succeed on this task and go onto the next one. But it was a lot more fun to operate than to do what we’re doing now.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How much longer would you guess we’re going to be doing this--?</p>
<p>Jensen: I, personally, or Hanford?</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Both, why not?</p>
<p>Jensen: Well, PFP is supposed to be torn down. It was supposed to be torn down by the end of September this year, but it’s probably going to be about a year off from that. The K Basin—K West Basin has sludge in it. They’re probably going to start removing the sludge in about two years. That’ll probably take about a year to do that and then they’ll start tearing that basin down. There’s still a huge project called Groundwater, where they’re pumping contaminated water, and it’s not just radioactive contamination, there’s a lot of heavy metal contamination in Groundwater. They pump that out, and they run it through processes to take the, like, chromium out of the water and replace it with a type of chromium that’s not as environmentally damaging. That’ll go on for years and years. And then there’s still—all of the old processing canyons are still there in place, and all of those are going to have to be torn down at some point. So, it’s probably decades more work here. And then there’s all the tanks. They’re going to take all the waste out of the tanks and run it through the Vit Plant which isn’t done yet. So years of work left at Hanford.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Interesting. Were you ever interested in the sort of politics of Hanford?</p>
<p>Jensen: Not too much. The politics were different. In the ‘80s, it was whether we should be making weapons-grade plutonium or not. Nowadays the politics is more like, which project do we rob from to give to somebody else? And political battles in Congress as to how much funding Hanford gets, and things like that. So I try and stay out of all of that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure. So how about life outside of the work plant? Where were you living—still in Kennewick?</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes, I’ve been living in Kennewick since I moved there as a kid in 1965.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Where in Kennewick?</p>
<p>Jensen: It’s over near Highway 395 as it kind of cuts through the middle of Kennewick.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How has life in the Tri-Cities changed in the time you’ve—</p>
<p>Jensen: The Tri-Cities is a lot bigger. It was pretty small when I first moved here. For several years, it was just slowly growing, and it’s been growing like crazy since. It’s like, they’re always building new schools, and there’s always housing developments under construction. There used to be a lot of orchards in Kennewick, all around. There’s hardly anything now, because they’ve all been cut down and there’s houses there now. Traffic’s a lot worse.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What do you do in your spare time? Any hobbies or--?</p>
<p>Jensen: I like photography, I like to take pictures with film, which is old-fashioned nowadays. And I like to develop the film myself. So far that’s all been black and white film; I haven’t tried developing color film yet. And I like to collect old film cameras that I can still find film for and use those. Up until recently, I was playing hockey—adult hockey, which I started when I was 49, started playing hockey. I’m 60 now, so I’ve been doing that for about 11 years. However, I had quit, hopefully only temporarily because I’ve got some medical issues. My doctor said no hockey until this is resolved. And then I hurt my knee the other day, so I don’t know. That might—even if the other one gets resolved, that might be the end of hockey. I like to go to Tri-City Americans hockey games during the season. I got to Tri-City Dust Devil games during the baseball season. Like to go to plays and movies. I decided this year I was going to audition for a play, see if I could get in. I did not make it, but I’m going to try again, coming up later. Probably this summer. So we’ll see. Never done that before, either. But it always sounded like fun.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Any sort of major events or incidents, whether at work or just sort of around the Tri-Cities that comes to mind that are sort of worth commemorating, or worth just sort of mentioning?</p>
<p>Jensen: Kind of the interesting thing—back in 1986, reactor was still operating, and do you remember Connie Chung, the news—she came to the Tri-Cities to do a show on Hanford. Everybody at work was wondering who she’s going to interview. And we’re thinking they’re going to interview, like company president, company vice president, or something. And I remember joking that she should interview a reactor operator like me. And everybody laughed. And about an hour later, the phone rang, and it was the producer wanting to talk to me, and they wanted to interview me that night. And I got permission from the company. Turned out, my dad, who, like I said, had worked at the Tank Farms—he had gone to a public hearing on what to do with tank wastes. The Connie Chung crew had gone to the same meeting, because they were getting background information. My dad spoke at the meeting, and they said, oh, we have to interview that guy. When they talked to him, he mentioned that his son worked as a reactor operator. Oh, god, that’d be great, interview them both. So that’s how I got called up. The company gave me permission, and they did it in my house. I told them, it was my son’s third birthday, and I said we’re going to have a birthday party, but you can do the interview after the birthday party. So they said okay. After I got home, my wife sent me out to buy ice cream, I think. And I’m coming back. When she came back, she was all excited. Connie Chung called personally and asked if they could film the birthday party. So they filmed my son’s third birthday party, and then they interviewed my dad and I in my living room, and then—I don’t know, two, three hours of interview stuff, and they boil it all down to about five minutes. But that’s the way that goes. So that was kind of exciting. I was a minor celebrity for a while.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Any other stories leap to mind?</p>
<p>Jensen: We had some interesting scrams in the control room. I talked about the two turbine trip ones that were very interesting. The first one, like I said, I had to pull control rods rapidly to compensate for the xenon building up faster than it’s being burned out. I got that all settled out, and the power level wasn’t dropping, and I had forgotten that--when the main steam header pressure goes up, the power level goes down—well, eventually, they’re going to control the main steam header, and it’s going to go back where it’s supposed to be. And the power all of the sudden starts shooting up. So now I’m shoving control rods in like crazy to keep the power level from going up too fast, because we could scram on a high rate of rise. So I got that all settled out. The second time it happened—since I was the most experienced person on the plant on this upset, I got it settled out from the xenon, and I just got my ear open over here, and as soon as I hear somebody say, main steam header pressure’s coming down, I look over and the power level starts to go up, and I tap some rods in, and it was just like routine. Nothing to it. But another time, we had another accident—well, accident’s probably not the right word. We had another upset. We had a new control system—computerized system for controlling valve positioning. The old system we had was very ancient. It was obsolete when they put it in at the reactor, but they got a good price on it, so that’s why they did that. So we had this new computerized system, and there were two cards in the computer that controlled the valve positioning. The primary card, and a backup card. If the primary card failed, you would transfer to the backup card, and it was supposedly a bump-less transfer. The system wouldn’t even know. The primary card had failed, and so it transferred to the backup card, and everything went perfect. Well, the instrument technicians took the primary card out to repair it, and they came to put it back in. Now, this card controlled the steam valves going over to WPPSS. I was on the console controlling all of that, and I remember, jokingly, I said to the guy—the instrument tech and the engineer, when they came in, they were going to go to the rom below the control room where all of that stuff was. They were going to replace it, and I said, you aren’t going to scram us, are you? And the engineer said, trust me. And they went down—and I was just joking, because I figured, no big deal—and they went down and they put the primary card in and they told it to take over. It took over and sent its signal to the valves, but the secondary card did not relinquish control. So all of the steam valves opened up twice as far as they were supposed to. So our steam pressure goes down, and when that goes down, the reactor power goes up. And the primary coolant pressure also goes down, because you’re boiling water really well in the secondary system, that cools the water really well in the primary system, and cold water contracts. So that pressure goes down, and if the pressure goes down to far, the reactor scrams. So I’m fighting like mad with—somebody else came over to help me—to keep from scramming on low pressure. Other people are working over here, trying to keep from scramming on something over here. And other people over here, and the guy on the nuclear console is trying to keep the power level from going up too fast. We’re running around—it was very exciting. Seemed like it took hours. Probably just took a few minutes. We got it all stabilized out, and I’m looking at the primary loop pressure, and it’s kind of fluctuating and bouncing. And right when it’s going—trying to think if it was going up or down. See, if we cool—it had to have been going up. The secondary card cut out, all the valves slammed shut, and we had the exact opposite thing happen. Now, the primary loop gets hot, everything expands, and we scrammed on high pressure. And then about five minutes later, the instrument tech and the engineer come upstairs. They could tell something bad was happening, and they just looked like—it wasn’t their fault, but—</p>
<p>O’Reagan: When it actually does scram, is it actually just rods, or—I’ve heard some designs where there’s actually just balls that are—</p>
<p>Jensen: Okay. The main system was control rods. And you were going like this, like dropping down from the top. The old reactors had safety rods that dropped in from the top. N Reactor’s rods all came from both sides, and they overlapped. All the rods would slam in with hydraulic pressure. We had some hydraulic pumps that would turn on and pump very high pressure hydraulic fluid into the system, and the rods would shoot in. It would take about a second-and-a-half to go in. And you’d get all these enunciators in the control room, and if you were—mmm, it’s pretty boring here at two in the morning, and then all of the sudden the reactor scrams, you were wide awake. Got adrenaline pumping through and then you’ve got all these things you have to do to make sure everything works correctly on a scram, because it causes all kinds of things. The balls were the backup to the control rods. They had to be 75% in in one-and-a-half seconds. If they went in too slow, there was a problem. If they went in too fast, there was a problem, just because they could be damaged. But if they went in too slow, that’s what the ball system was for. There were hoppers on top of the reactor—I think there were a hundred-and-some reactors. And they were full of boron carbide balls. Boron absorbs neutrons. That’s what’s in the control rods to absorb neutrons. If you had one slow rod, it’s no big deal. If you had two slow rods in one column, you would drop balls on both sides of that rod column. If you had three slow rods anywhere in the reactor, you would drop balls on both sides of each of those three rod columns. Then there was also a thing where you could have a complete ball drop—drop all of the balls. If the reactor power level did not decay below five megawatts in three minutes, I think it was, then you would have a complete ball drop. That happened twice. Once, for real, because we had a scram and the rods didn’t go in at all—this is before I started working there. So there’s a scram trip, the rods did not go in, the balls dropped. And the other one was we were starting the reactor up—getting ready to start the reactor up and going through all of these checks on various instrumentation. The instrumentation that would monitor if the reactor power was below five megawatts in three minutes, they were doing the work on that, and they had a procedure that they would run. There were three channels and they would run it on each channel. That included having a switch to put in a couple of different calibrate positions. Basically, it put a false signal into the system so you could see if it’s responding correctly. So an operator and an instrument tech were doing that. They did channel one and it didn’t look right when they put it in the calibrate position. So they went on to channel two to see if it would do the same thing, and they did that. Well, they put two trips into the system. The reactor—what we called the safety circuit—was not made up, and so the system started timing for five minutes. These two instruments said the power level was greater than five megawatts with the safety circuit broken. When the give minutes went up, all the balls dropped. It was kind of innocuous. There was an enunciator that said, any ball hopper open. So the enunciator goes off, and the operator looks up at that. Any ball hopper open. And then he realized what happened. He told the control room supervisor, and the control room supervisor told me that. He says, I looked up at it. And I looked down. And I looked up again to make sure it was actually on. And then he said a few bad words and then he went and told the shift manager that we had dropped all of the balls.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I heard on the old reactor designs, that had to be actually sort of vacuumed out.</p>
<p>Jensen: Yes. They used vacuum—they were steel balls, too. And they used vacuums to suck them up. At N Reactor, we had a valve at the bottom of the channel that you would open up, and the balls would drain into a hoist, and then you would lift them all the way up to the top, and put them in a hopper at the top—a big hopper—and then you would load the individual hoppers. That was a horrible, horrible job, being up there loading those hoppers. It was always hot, you had to wear plastic raingear and an assault mask, which—rubber hugging your face, and it’s hard, physical labor, and wearing the raingear and it’s already 100 degrees up there anyway. It was just miserable work. So nobody liked to do that. When we had that big ball drop, my job was to go down underneath the reactor. You could open up those drain valves remotely. So we had Bill here who smoked a lot and was not allowed to wear respirators, he was operating the control panel. But a lot of times, the valves wouldn’t work remotely. So, me, wearing all of this fresh air stuff, would stand by, but would say, 43 didn’t work. So I would have to go back there, trailing this hose with my fresh air, and go back to 43, and open it manually. It was extremely hot, radioactively, down there. I picked up my entire one week’s worth of radiation. We were allowed 300 millirem of radiation, either in a single exposure or in a seven-day period, and I picked up that entire 300 in less than an hour, going back and forth. And most of the time, I was just standing there, waiting. And I’d go back in there, and I’d pick up quite a bit, and I’d open up a valve and come back, and then I was done and left. Couldn’t work in a radiation zone for seven days after that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How often did you have the radiation testing? Or was it the hand-and-foot test—</p>
<p>Jensen: Oh, any time we came out of a contaminated zone, contaminated area, when we were wearing those SWPs, you have to undress in a proper sequence. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this. We had step-off pads. A red pad and a green pad. And when you get to the red pad, before you get to that, you have to remove all of your outer clothing before you step on the red pad. And then when you get to the green pad, you have to remove all of your SWP clothing before you step on the green pads. So you end up coming out there—well, in the old days when there were very few women working in the Area, you’d be coming out in your underwear. Later on they made us wear a t-shirt and shorts. But I kind of lost track of what we were saying there. Oh, the hand-and-foot counters. And then when you came out, we would step into a hand-and-foot counter or a whole-body portal monitor that would monitor our sides and front and back, to make sure we weren’t contaminated. Then usually we would also be surveyed by a health physics technician who’s got a Geiger counter, and he just slowly goes over, checks your hands, checks the bottom of your shoes, makes sure you’re not—don’t have any skin or clothing contamination. If you do, then you’ve got to get decontaminated. And that happens once in a while.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was that ever a concern of yours?</p>
<p>Jensen: No. I did get a few skin contaminations. I had to hold over once. I got some primary coolant water in my hair, and there was a lot of radon in the water. Radon is electrostatically attracted to polyester and hair. So it latches on, and it’s hard to get off. I just had to wait until it decayed off. After about--</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Did you shave?</p>
<p>Jensen: No, no. I washed my hair several times, and then they just said—come back every hour and we’ll check, and after about three hours they let me go home. Usually, skin contaminations wash off pretty easy. If it’s your clothing, you have to wash the clothing. You don’t get to take that home until it’s passed as clean. Sometimes, rarely, stuff would have to get thrown away. But I never had any serious contamination issues. If you’re careful, if you dress correctly, and then when you come out, you undress correctly, then it’s very rare to be contaminated.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Any other sort of stories leap to mind from your--?</p>
<p>Jensen: There’s a few things that happened before I was there that were interesting. I don’t know. We had an accident. It was about three—and this one is an accident—it was about three years before I started work. They flushed a tube of hot, radioactive fuel onto the charge elevator, which is not where it’s supposed to go. It’s supposed to go out the back, and fall into the discharge shoots and then go into the basin. There were workers on the elevator when it happened. They got very high radiation exposures. Fortunately, not high enough to kill anybody. But that was just lucky, I think. So, I don’t know. That was the most serious thing I know that happened there. We did have one—before I was certified, we had one really bad accident where we lost all the instrument air to the plant. Almost every valve functions with air—they’re air-operated: air to open, air to close. A lot of pumps are—the pump speeds are maintained by air pressure, things like that. So we had a scram, and it was a very abnormal scram. But we survived it.</p>
<p>[VIDEO CUTS]</p>
<p>Camera man: Okay, hold it out so we see.</p>
<p>Jensen: --piece of fuel out of the reactor, and they pushed all the hot, irradiated fuel out, but we’d done a normal refueling after that shutdown. And, well, now, we’ve got to—we pushed out all the hot fuel, and now we’re going to push out all the un-irradiated fuel and keep it, just in case we start up again. I happened to be walking by when they got the last one out, and they were taking a picture and they said, get over here!</p>
<p>Camera man: Oh, so where are you? Are you down in front there?</p>
<p>Jensen: I am right there.</p>
<p>Camera man: Yep, that’s right.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: You’ve got the [INAUDIBLE] gear guy in back.</p>
<p>Jensen: So these guys are all dressed up in the gear and they’ve got the fuel with them. I think they’ve got the fuel with them in there. There’s another picture that I don’t have that actually shows them holding the last piece. [VIDEO CUTS] There were two certified operators when I was hired on. I think there had been some more who had left. There was another lady who was in the certification program and then she certified shortly after that. In my class, there was one woman and she did not go all the way through, and then in the class after, there was at least one woman in there. So we had a handful of women certified operators. The very first one hired, I’m pretty sure that would have been Martha Coop. I’m wondering who the guy you talked to was who hired her. Because I’m sure I would know him. I just can’t think of who that might have been. The other one was Leslie Jensen, no relation to me, and I think she was the one who babysat me when I was probably a kindergartener or a first grader. She was one of my mom’s students.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: All right. Anything else I should be asking here, any other memories that are worth preserving?</p>
<p>Jensen: I’ll probably think things when I get home.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure.</p>
<p>Jensen: But right now I think I’m—</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Great. All right, well that’s been great. Thank you so much for being here.</p>
<p>Jensen: You’re welcome.</p>
<p><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/vzYLT2Ds3-Q">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:16:35
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
N Reactor
200 Area
Tank Farms
WPPSS (Washington Public Power Supply Systems)
UNC (United Nuclear Corporations)
Rockwell
PUREX
PNNL (Pacific Northwest National Laboratory)
K East Reactor
K West Reactor
K East/West Basins
100-K
PFP (Plutonium Finishing Plant)
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1961-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mark Jensen
Description
An account of the resource
Mark Jensen moved to Richland, Washington in 1961 as a child and grew up in Kennewick, Washington. Mark began working on the Hanford Site in 1981.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
03-25-2016
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Nuclear reactors
Nuclear reactor accidents
Chernobyl Nuclear Accident, Chornobylʹ, Ukraine, 1986
Nuclear energy
Nuclear power plants
Nuclear fuel rods
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/26">Mark Jensen, Oral History Metadata</a>
2-East Area
200 Area
200 East
200 East Area
Battelle
Department of Energy
Energy Northwest
Hanford
K Basin
K West Reactor
K-Basin
K-West Reactor
Kennewick
Manhattan Project
N Reactor
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
Plutonium
Plutonium Finishing Plant
PUREX
School
Sun
Tank Farm
Tank Farms
United Nuclear Corporation
VIT Plant
War
Washington Public Power Supply System
Westinghouse
-
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dd6665ad63d7fe5c5acc2cb6fa5d2b46
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e26990ed6f57cf106722b5faea48c57.mp4
407f005756ef54638c41f44cafc967f7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leonard Gustafson
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Gustafson_Leonard</strong></p>
<p>Robert Bauman: We're ready to go. So if we could start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p>Leonard Gustafson: Okay. You ready?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yep.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Okay. I'm Leonard Gustafson. Last name is spelled G-U-S-T-A-F-S-O-N.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. And my name's Robert Bauman. And today's date is October 16<sup>th</sup>, as we clarified, 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you tell us when you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Okay.</p>
<p>Bauman: Why you came here.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, we do that almost any direction. I knew about the place so for a couple reasons, but the main reason was that some of my fellow chemical engineers from Montana State University had come over a year or two earlier. And so when I finished up at Bozeman and started looking for a job, it seemed like I might take at least a temporary assignment at this wartime installation until I found a real job. So I arrived on October 15<sup>th</sup> of 1950. It's been a little while ago isn't it? 63 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Almost your anniversary, yeah.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Went through, I guess, the normal procedures. Found out about what was going on in the plant, and security, and a little bit about how to deal with radioactive materials. And then I was assigned to my first tasks. I was what they called a Supervisor-in-Training, and went into the operations part of the chemical processing department. My first building that I went to was T Plant. The T Plant, the bismuth phosphate separation plant. And about all I did there was so learn how to detect contamination and clean it up. I always tell the story that the operators really loved having these young supervisors-in-training come in, because they could hand them a bucket of acetone, or something like that, and bundle of rags, and a cutie pie—which was our instrument for detecting radiation—and send us out to scrub the deck. In the separation plants, and this was common after the crane operator removes the blocks from the cells, he always leaves a little bit of contamination on the deck. So that's a rather regular job. So I learned how to handle the cutie pie. And how to go through the—how to dress. Put us in our white coveralls and learn how to go through what we called at that time, the SWP, Special Work Permit. It's been called many different things. Anyhow, that started me out. After I believe it was about two months in T Plant, I was assigned to the startup of the REDOX operation. Now the REDOX was the first of the solvent extraction plants. So it was essentially near completion there at the end of 1950, the beginning of 1951. So we went through the final inspection processes and started up. And then I was assigned to one of the four operating shifts that operated that building. This was extremely interesting. It was like a great big pilot plant laboratory, and we chemical engineers essentially had the responsibility for operating. We moved into that plant without having much time for a lot of training and procedural preparation. So in order to at least establish some kind of order beyond simple procedures. The operation was strictly conducted by the engineers, by the supervisors. Each shift had eight shift supervisors and two senior supervisors. And initially all the operation was conducted by the supervisors. The operators were just learning at that stage. After, oh, year or so, the operators were ready to run the plant. We didn't need so many supervisors. So in late 1953, I went out on another rather interesting assignment. Engineering at that time was responsible for inspection. We didn't have anything like quality assurance organizations. So engineering inspectors took care of the required inspection of any materials or equipment that we were ordering from Hanford. I was assigned mostly out in the Ohio, Pennsylvania, Kentucky area, New York. I spent a little over a year. It was a very active thing. Frequently I'd turn in an expense account for seven different locations in a week. So is this about--</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, this is great.</p>
<p>Gustafson: --where you want to go? I can cut things pretty short if you'd like.</p>
<p>Bauman: This is great. Keep going.</p>
<p>Gustafson: So anyhow, we got into some fabulous big plants and all this sort of thing. Learned a little more about how to build things. Because some of the time we were actually not only assigned for the final inspections, but we went right through all the manufacturing stages. I returned then to Richland in the beginning of 1955. By that time, the PUREX plant was nearing completion. That was the second of the big solvent extraction plants. So I was assigned for the startup and so on of that plant. My final assignment there was basically I was the operating supervisor for C shift. C shift was one of the four shifts that was responsible for operating the plant. By that time, the operators were pretty well trained, so I had about 18 or 19 operators and two chief operators. And there was one technical man also assigned to the shift. I'd have to look upon that assignment as probably the most responsible job I ever had, starting up and running that plant. The operating group was basically responsible for the main process. The shift crews have the responsibility to run it, unless there were some real serious problem or question, we have to find the answers and go ahead and do it. There were many experiences there, but I was--after a couple years, well, I'd been married in the process there at the end of ‘55. My wife was a teacher and it was getting to the point where shift work was not the most desirable. We'd touch base occasionally. So I moved into one of the engineering groups again in the separations department, process design and development. [UNKNOWN], just one who is still around, managed that group. A good friend. And so I spent a couple years in that work. We were basically responsible for new activities or problem activities that the engineering group was supposed to take care of to support the operations. So after two or three years there, I thought it was about time to see some more of the plant, so I moved on down to the 300 Area, and worked with the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. So I spent a couple three years there. So that had to be about 1960, 1961, somewhere in there. I didn't get the exact dates. So I went through the startup and operation of the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. Now this was not associated with plutonium production. This was really in support of the oncoming nuclear industry for power production, for electrical production. And the reason for the PRTR was to demonstrate that plutonium could be used as well as uranium-235 as the fissile fuel for commercial reactors. It was a successful project. And at that time, projects were completed on time and usually under budget. So it was a success as far as I'm concerned. After that plant is operating and they didn't have much need for me around anymore, I moved on out to the 100 Areas. And good friend of mine, Gene Astley, asked me one day what I was doing. I said, well, I guess I'm about ready to do something else. And so he said, well, come on out work for me for a while. So I went out to the 100 Areas, must've been ‘64 or ‘65, and worked largely with so water plant type problems and questions that were going on. Now we're getting into the area where we're getting about ready to--the Cold War was sort of winding up. So production wasn't the number one priority anymore. There were a lot of questions about what was the future of Hanford and so on at that time. So after working a couple three years out there, I guess not quite, I moved on down to the fuels department and worked with Charlie Mathis, the manager of fuels production at that time—this must've been about ‘65. And my main activity there was mostly planning, what are we going to do with the fuels manufacturing plants in the future? So very, very interesting and we worked along with—Roy Nielsen had a group that was overall Hanford planning at that time. So after a couple years there in the fuels department, I actually moved into Roy's group. And so this had to be ‘67, maybe ‘66, I'm not real sure. With that assignment, one of the things that was done at that time the AEC, countrywide, was studying and planning for what to do with the nuclear facilities and how they were going to support commercial electrical power generation. So they had a group down at Oak Ridge that was called the AEC Combined Operational Planning Group. And Hanford, as well as most of the sites, were responsible for providing two or three representatives. So I spent about a year and a half down there. That was in basically ‘68. Of course, that was quite fascinating, because we were looking at the overall AEC complex and what was the future for nuclear power, essentially. One of the things I got involved with were the nuclear power forecasts. I spend a lot of time at headquarters. Frank Baranowski was the head of the production division, essentially responsible for Hanford, Savannah River, Oak Ridge—all of the main production facilities. I spent some time with him every now and then. Very fine fellow. And so after year and half or so there, I felt it was about time to get back home. And we had actually moved the family there, so we moved completely and sold our house and rented in Oak Ridge. So we came back to Richland at I guess the end of ‘69. And one of the big activities at that time was the FFTF. So I again I went with the FFTF project. So I changed, I had been with Douglas United Nuclear, so at that time I went to Battelle who was responsible for the early FFTF bid. My good friends Astley and Condoda, who were the manager an engineering manager, they did not stay with the project. We Indians sort of stayed with it. That was when the AEC—the Milt Shaw years—decided that Battelle was not adequately competent to take on a project like that. They needed somebody with more, I guess, manufacturing and big project experience. So Westinghouse had been assigned to take over that responsibility by the AEC. So I then became a Westinghouse employee. Spent most of the next, I guess, ten years with the FFTF project until it was a complete and operating. By that time we're getting up to 1980 range. So those were interesting times. We had a lot particularly early conflict. The assigning of Westinghouse to take overlooked project didn't really satisfy what Milt Shaw was after. We had a rather severe conflict. Milt Shaw was finally ousted. I still don't know for sure who was the most influential in getting that because the project was floundering. We moved the AEC representatives from Washington, DC. The most closely associated came to Hanford and became essentially the FFTF project office on site. Most of the closely associated Westinghouse staff who had been in Pittsburgh moved to Hanford. And we were able to work over a local table rather than on the phone and at crazy meetings. And the FFTF came together quite well. I think it was very successful project. Perhaps we didn't finish it under budget, but we did well after it was reorganized. It started up and ran very successfully. Too bad that we couldn't find a better use for the plant. Of course, the liquid metal fast breeder program essentially fizzled. Let's see, from that—well, I'm getting pretty well along and I needed something maybe a little different. So I got into a rather, again, what I regard as an interesting assignment. Westinghouse there somewhere close to the period ‘78, ‘79, ‘80, had been assigned to run a nuclear quality assurance program office. And although Westinghouse Hanford was running that office, we were really a part of the AEC, or what became DoE. The work we did the next few years was largely to try and add something, coordinate the quality assurance programs around all of the sites. Lots of travel involved. Lots of lecturing. Lots of QA audits. I ran so many QA audits that I can't remember. Like I tell people, I got into more parts of Savannah River than most of the people who worked there. I think I was involved in at least 30 audits there over the years. This evolved into--that office—let’s see, it finally closed down in ’87, perhaps. And so I came back to a more conventional Hanford-type quality assurance and did that until I retired in ‘90. One of the last projects that I was on there was an SP-100. We were going to do a space reactor. And SP-100 was an interesting project, but it also never came to pass. Amazingly, ended up back in the PRTR building. Because we cleaned out some of the cells in the PRTR building and were going to put in a big vacuum tank there so we could simulate space for running this space reactor. Let's see, where'd I go from there? After I spent a little bit of time with a number of the waste program projects, including our own, and got into a little bit of the early vitrification plant. I retired in, what, December of ‘90. Spent the next three or four years doing part-time consulting. The main thing that I was associated with at that time was another interesting project. The only really commercial chemical reprocessing plant that was built was the West Valley plant, just south of Buffalo, New York. It was a small, but commercial, reprocessing plant. See, most of the reprocessing was shut down in 1970. And of course, that led to a lot of problems here at Hanford. Early '70s. I could go on about that for hours, but-- [LAUGHTER] Let's see. So I spent a lot of time at West Valley. And that was very separate. It didn't hit the newspapers. But that plant was completed. The waste that they had was vitrified into glass. And as far as I know, it's sitting there ready to go wherever. It could be up the mountain, but who knows. It's a good project in many ways.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you've had a long and varied career in many ways. A number of different assignments.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yes, I think so. I think I was very lucky to see so much.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you a few questions about some of the things you worked on. So you said you worked at both REDOX and PUREX. Could you explain the solvent extraction, and what that means?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yeah. Well, you know the purpose of our chemical processing, or chemical separation plants here at Hanford, is to take the fuel that has been irradiated in our reactors and extract from that the plutonium. And get the plutonium into a form so it can then go on down to Los Alamos for the bombs. So the chemical reprocessing plants essentially dissolve this uranium metal fuel that had been irradiated in the reactors, and a small amount of the uranium-238 has been converted into plutonium-239. And of course the atomic bombs can use either uranium-235 or plutonium-239 as their fissile source. So these plants are gigantic. They're 1,000 feet long, great big canyon buildings, as we called them. Basically just involve a lot of chemicals running from one end to the other. We start with the fuel and end up with--in the initial separation plants, they ended up with a waste stream that also included the uranium. Now we wanted to recover that uranium, so that early waste from the B and T Plants, as we refer it, these were the early bismuth phosphate separation plants. The waste from those reprocessed to recover the uranium. And the high level elements that we wanted to get rid of were put back into the waste tanks. But in both the REDOX and the PUREX processes, we actually extracted both the plutonium and uranium. So we ended up with two products. So the uranium could be immediately converted into UO-3 and then eventually back in the metal. And the plutonium could be converted into metal so it could be used for the bombs. So kind of an oversimplification there.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so your work there—your position there was operational management?</p>
<p>Gustafson: I was mostly associated with the direct operation. In the 200 Areas, except I said, after my PUREX assignment I was in just what we call the process design and development. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: And then you talked about this AEC combined operational planning group that you were part of in the late '60s. And you said, one of questions you were looking at was, what's the future of nuclear power? Did the group come up with any conclusions about that at the time in the late '60s, what the future of nuclear power was?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I think we were quite optimistic about nuclear power at that time. Of course, also what was developing was resistance to nuclear power. So our forecasts were extremely optimistic. And although we did end up finally with about 120 operating power production plants in the United States, far short of what we expected. The government had assumed, basically, I guess, overall responsibility to see that the technology is okay. And in particular, to assure commercial operators that they will have enough enriched uranium to run their plants. Because we didn't need that weapons-type material anymore. But see at Oak Ridge they ended up the producing almost pure U-235 while we were producing pure—or near pure—plutonium-239. So either of those could be used for the bombs. But what happened with the commercial power, we had to use about 3% or 4% U-235. Only slightly enriched. But we still had to use enrichment plants, and the government had all the enrichment plants—basically, like Oak Ridge and the rest of them. And so as far as AEC combined operational planning, their goal was to make sure that nuclear power did what it was supposed to do. Provide us with lots of good economic electric energy. And to a large extent, it has.</p>
<p>Bauman: Hanford, obviously as a site, was a place that emphasized security, secrecy. Were you able to talk about the work you did? Was that something that was allowable given the security secrecy?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yes, there wasn't a great deal of the security concern. It was mostly what are the resources and what can we do with this combination of government and industry to provide good electricity for the country. Economic.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to go back to when you first arrived in 1950. What were your first impressions of the place here, of Richland, of the area?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Oh, I don't know. It was a temporary stop. [LAUGHTER] Never expected to spend the next 40 years or so working here. It was a great place, particularly for young single people. We moved into dormitories and there were a lot for fine single people, ambitious, and always wanting to do things. Those were good years. We certainly accepted the security. We were part of what we felt was a very necessary effort. We were in the Cold War. And we had to do a better job than the Russians.</p>
<p>Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms and where did you move to after that?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I didn't actually live too long in the dorms. There were four of us, still good friends of mine, except one of them's gone. But we actually moved out to a small place in West Richland. So a number of the people in the dorms were looking for a little better living conditions. One of the problems with those early dorms—in theory we weren't even supposed to do any cooking in the dorms. So we strictly were going from the dorms to the local cafeteria, or a few commercial places that were opening up in Richland. It was a fascinating time, those early '50s. I got married the end of ‘55, so the first five years of single life and included my year plus when I was offsite, skiing, water skiing. Like my crowd, we were essentially the first water skiers in the Tri-Cities. At that time to find a boat, we had to go to Seattle to get one that we could use for water skiing. There wasn't any Mets Marina at that time. So we sort of started the water skiing in the area. Created the Desert Ski Club which was a snow skiing, but also got in the water skiing. Desert Ski Club still exists. So my close associates, we were sort of the instigators that. All went through our time as officers of the club. It was a big social group. Still is, I think.</p>
<p>Bauman: Richland was a federal town when you first arrived. How did you see that change over time from when you first arrived?</p>
<p>Gustafson: It's kind of hard. We certainly enjoyed our early years. We had a lot more individual responsibility on the jobs. I tell one of my stories, I came in at midnight to take over my shift at PUREX. I was the operating supervisor on C shift. And the operating supervisor on swing shift wasn't there. And I'd been met at the door with an assault mask, all of the crew were. And when I went in the building, the operating supervisor who I was to replace wasn't there, but my boss was. And I never saw him again. So, I guess I tell the story that they didn't really tell me I was captain of the ship. So anyhow, we restarted the plant. And it took us a couple months.</p>
<p>Bauman: And about when would this have been?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Pardon?</p>
<p>Bauman: What time period would this have been in?</p>
<p>Gustafson: When was that?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, roughly.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, let's see, I guess that was, must have been early ‘57, right? I'm not exactly sure now. It was a different time. Individuals have a lot of responsibility. And we made a few mistakes, but in general, I think we did a damn good job of operating the plants. And safety and radiological exposure, these were major parts of our responsibility and our concern.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you about safety. Obviously, you said it was very—emphasized quite a bit. What sort of precautions did you have to take on your job? And were there ever any incidents when you were working of someone overexposure or anything along those lines?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I think we operated with a lot of what you would probably expect military officers to have as a responsibility. And you know, you were responsible for your job and you--As an operating supervisor of my C shift at PUREX, there wasn't any other group that was responsible for the training of my operators. They were my responsibility. And if we had to send them to some special training, we'd do that. But the basic training was conducted by the supervisor. They assured whether they were qualified and whether they were able to do their job. I guess that's why when my counterpart was ejected, it was a military type operation, I guess. But I think we did a really good job. Safety was a number one concern. Radiological exposure was also a number one concern. And as far as I'm concerned, from everything I've seen, very, very few people suffered from working in our plants.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was going to ask you about President Kennedy came to the site in 1963 to visit. There was a story in the paper, a while back because it was the 50th anniversary of that. I wondered if you have any memories of that?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Oh yeah. Half the plant was out there. And I was there to welcome him as he came in on his helicopter. We were all out there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Anything in particular stand out to you about that day at all?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I don't know. It's what we all expected at that time. There wasn't anything really unusual about this. Although I came out in 1950 saying, this is going to be a very temporary thing, I think we became--[CRYING] We became Hanford. [CRYING] Didn't expect to get emotional.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, you built a sense of community, it seems like.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Really did. Those were good years. Really good years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you, you talked about a number of different places on site that you worked. Different assignments. Was there one of those that was the most challenging? Or the most difficult? Or maybe one that was the most rewarding?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well for me, it had to be those first few years with the PUREX plant. I've had a lot of other—what I think—good work assignments over the years. I know of no one who had the variety that I had. Certainly projects likely FFTF, I felt I had a very important role in that. I was one of these so-called cognizant engineers and my system was the main heat transport system. And it included basically the primary and secondary cooling systems. Everything from the reactor on. And the operating conditions for the plant, all of the design events and so on were channeled into that system. So that was a rewarding job, too. And I think we did a good job. As I said, we had a lot of early trouble getting that project going, but finally. So I enjoyed those years. I didn't feel the same individual responsibility that I had with the early time at PUREX.</p>
<p>Bauman: Obviously, Hanford also had the shift from production to a reduced production that you talked about, and then a shift to clean up. I wonder if those sort of mission changes impacted your work and in what ways?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, they certainly did. I've been involved in many parts of that. Even during my last few years with generally this overall quality assurance type bit, getting into working with the Washington, DC folks and that sort of thing.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you mentioned when you first came here, you thought it would be a short term.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so for some people was. Some people did come for a short time and left. So why did you stay? I know you had some assigned that took you way to a bunch of other places, but--</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yeah. I don't know. We stayed for lots of reasons. We established a lot of close friendships. And sort of had our crowd of social as well as work relations. And we just became Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet in terms of your work at Hanford? Or your experiences that you'd like to talk about that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? Any stories or things that stand out in your mind?</p>
<p>Gustafson: I have so many stories about Hanford that it's kind of hard to come. Of course, many. My operational years, the most direct part of the operations, were the early years. I have a lot of individual things that happened. Some of them were good, some of them weren't. I remember particularly one incident. I don't want to be called a hero, but it was rather exciting. My operator was unloading a caustic car. And he was properly dressed with his shield and so on, but the hose from the railroad car came loose and it ended up spraying up underneath his protective clothing. And I felt that I was sure glad I was there, only about ten feet away. Because he was just kind of yelling with--You know, caustic getting sprayed into your face is not really good. Grabbed a hold of him and we both got under the safety shower was there. And at least he retained most of his sight. So, that was a situation where—just sort of individual kind of exciting happening, certainly was. I had a lot of other things go on. I feel that I had a lot of important tasks at Hanford. As I said, probably my most responsible thing was when I was still pretty young there, and operating the early couple, three years of PUREX as one of the operating supervisors. Had many chances to do so many different things over the years. Let's see, what would be of--It's kind of hard to come up with individual things that you might be interested in.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, you've already talked about a number. That's been great. So I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences with us. We appreciate it.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Okay. Thank you.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:48:52
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
T Plant
REDOX
PUREX
PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor)
100 Areas
FFTF
Westinghouse Hanford
200 Area
B Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1950-
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1950-1990
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
An interview with Leonard Gustafson
Description
An account of the resource
Leonard Gustafson moved to Richland, Washington in 1950 to work on the Hanford Site.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/16/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Radioactive substances
Nuclear fuels
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
100 Area
1955
200 Area
300 Area
Battelle
Cold War
Desert
Hanford
Kennedy
Los Alamo
Los Alamos
Plutonium
PUREX
River
Safety
Savannah River
T Plant
War
Westinghouse
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F781469886630729124ac5781a546de58.JPG
854d8de5ddc7267beebe47d28e3198b4
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F97fd5a680e8f00e8b3814534fa754ff5.mp4
c2d0e6cf1d069b855fd2afebd9767149
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Douglas O’Reagan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Teena Giulio
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Douglas O’Reagan: Would you please spell and pronounce your name for us?</p>
<p>Teena Giulio: My name is Teena Giulio. First name is T-E-E-N-A. Last name is G-I-U-L-I-O.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Great, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview on May 4<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be speaking with Miss Giulio about her experiences working at the Hanford site and living in the Tri-Cities throughout the 20<sup>th</sup> Century. Okay. Thanks for being here.</p>
<p>Giulio: Thanks for having me.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So I understand you were actually born in the Tri-Cities.</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes, I was. I was born in the Tri-Cities in 1961. Moved away when I was, oh, four or five, and then moved back when I was 13. I’ve been here pretty much ever since, for the most part.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Where did you move away to?</p>
<p>Giulio: Denver.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Hm. Was that—were you too young to sort of notice differences? Did you notice differences when you came back?</p>
<p>Giulio: Oh, I noticed differences. I didn’t like it. We lived for probably three or four years up in the Seattle area. I identify that with home because of all the trees and the green and the smells and all of that. Denver just didn’t have that. Nostalgically, I like the spring here, because when it rains you get the smell of the sage and the dirt and the Russian olive trees—not that I like it, but it’s just that nostalgic smell.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Where within the Tri-Cities did you live when you moved back?</p>
<p>Giulio: In Richland.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Giulio: In Richland. When I was very little, we lived in Richland, moved to Kennewick, moved to Finley. [LAUGHTER] And then moved away.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So you came back in, I guess, middle school? Is that right?</p>
<p>Giulio: Just began seventh grade, yes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What was it like in Richland’s middle schools?</p>
<p>Giulio: [SIGH] Well, everybody else had pretty much had grown up together, so I felt like I didn’t belong. I felt very out of place. [LAUGHTER] I really don’t know what to tell you, other—it was very clique-ish back then. I don’t know if it is still now, but yeah, it was very clique-ish. I just didn’t feel like I was part of any of that. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Did that change by high school?</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes. Yes, of course I had made friends and continued those friendships on even until today, which is nice. It’s kind of a shared thing, so yeah.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Right. Let’s see. So I understand your family were long-time Hanford workers.</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes. Both grandfathers worked out at Hanford. My father and his brother worked out at Hanford. My uncle’s sons and daughter worked out there, and then I worked out there also.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What did your grandparents do?</p>
<p>Giulio: I’m not sure what my paternal grandfather did. But my maternal grandfather—I think he worked out at the 200 Areas. I guess it was like there was a coal bin or coal cars or something like that. He worked in that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Do you know what time period that would be?</p>
<p>Giulio: In the ‘50s and ‘60s.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay. And How about your parents? What did your parents do?</p>
<p>Giulio: Let me see. Well, let me go back to my grandparents.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure, yeah.</p>
<p>Giulio: They came out in the late ‘40s, I believe—late ‘40s, early ‘50s—to take part in all of the building and expansion and all of that. My parents—my father worked in several different areas, and—can I get my paperwork? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Yeah, sure.</p>
<p>Giulio: Let me see. Where did he work? Let me see. He started working out there as a delivery person, delivering top secret documents and other materials as needed to the 100 Area. Let me see. Transferred to operating engineer, and his first job was unloading the coal cars for approximately three years, which—that’s what my grandfather did, too, was the coal cars. He also built bunkers in the coal rooms, worked in the boiler house, water filtering, pump houses. [LAUGHTER] Let me see. Yeah, and that—I think, I believe, that’s where—shift work—so yeah. He kind of got around to all the different areas, but it was mainly in the 200 East and West Areas.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay. So sort of a technician-laborer-type role?</p>
<p>Giulio: Mm-hmm. And he went back—it’s like he left and got hired back or got laid off and got hired back. Because there were several times in my paperwork here that I’ve noticed he worked for different contractors at different times. I think that was fairly common back then, too.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Did you have a good impression of what your father was doing growing up?</p>
<p>Giulio: No. No. He was always very—I don’t want to say secretive—he just didn’t talk about it a whole lot. I did wonder why he didn’t shower at home. [LAUGHTER] As I got older, I realized that he showered at work after work, before he came home. When he got transferred to Rocky Flats, that was the same thing. They got cleaned before they came home so you didn’t bring coal dust or any type of radioactivity type of contamination home.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Do you remember or how you started to get an idea of what was going on at Hanford in general?</p>
<p>Giulio: No, not really, other than stories from my grandmother. I spent a lot of time with my grandmother after my grandfather passed. I spent the weekends with her, and we would talk a lot about a lot of different things. She would tell me the stories that she remembered. When they moved out here, and he first started working out there, she told me that she would pack his lunch for the day and he would walk off to the corner where everybody would meet. They—at that time, they had bus systems, and all over the city of Richland, the buses would pick up the workers. She said that all the windows were blacked out except for a small area for the driver. So nobody knew where they were going; they just got on the bus, took a long ride out, got off, and did what they were supposed to do. They all had very specific jobs. And then they cleaned up, got back on the buses with the blacked out windows, took a long ride home, and got off on the corner again. So that was my indoctrination of how secretive it was, way, way back. And she said that nobody knew what they were doing. They all had very specific jobs. They didn’t know what they were doing, they didn’t know what it was part of. Oh, she also said that they moved—they occasionally did different jobs. Like they would stay at one position for a while and then they would take them to a different area to do another job. So they—nobody could really put together, mentally, what was going on, until after—you know, everything kind of broke loose and came out as to what was going on. Probably—I’m not sure if they were here when they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. I want to say that they were. I’m trying to recall the stories that she’s told me. I want to say that they were here, because after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, she said that all the news stories came out that it was the plutonium from Hanford that was in the bombs that were dropped. Then everybody realized how important what they were doing was. So they must have been here in the ‘40s and worked throughout the ‘50s.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was your mother a homemaker?</p>
<p>Giulio: My mother worked—my mother worked as—it would be considered a paralegal now. She worked in one of the law offices here in town. So, no, she didn’t work out at Hanford.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay, great. Let’s see. So after high school, what was your next step?</p>
<p>Giulio: [LAUGHTER] I really wanted to get a job out there. So I took several low-paying, not-very-prestigious jobs, until I could get my foot in the door out there. My father wasn’t working there at the time, and nepotism was pretty rampant. [LAUGHTER] I finally got a call that somebody wanted to interview me, and I started out there in 1981. It was actually exactly one year after Mt. St. Helens blew. So maybe that was ’82. I don’t remember. Anyway, it was exactly one year after Mt. St. Helens blew, I started working out there. I worked out at 100-N as the mail carrier. I got delivered twice a day, the mail from 200 East Area, which was like their main process station, I guess you’d call it. And I would sort the mail and deliver it to the various people out there at 100-N. So you could say I got around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Why was it you wanted to work out there?</p>
<p>Giulio: The money. The money, the security, the benefits. And it was kind of like that’s where you were supposed to want to work at that time. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Hm. What were some of the sort of low-paying jobs you worked first?</p>
<p>Giulio: I worked in a furniture rental store. [LAUGHTER] And I worked in a funeral home—actually right out of high school, I worked in a funeral home, at Enon’s for a while. And then there was one in Kennewick that I worked at, but they were—it was kind of interconnected; they did work for each other. But I worked the front offices and typed contracts and did—it wasn’t really glamorous.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure.</p>
<p>Giulio: But I liked it. Good people.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How long were you working with the mail out at Hanford?</p>
<p>Giulio: I want to say close to a year. And then, at that time, after six months, you were eligible to transfer and apply for other jobs onsite. So I saw an opening in the—what do they call it—the site paper, or whatever it was. Saw a job opening for a metal operator and I read the description, and I thought, oh man, this sounds like a lot of fun. And what it turned out to be—I did get the job—what it turned out to be was various positions on an assembly line production of fuels for N Reactor. And, yes, it was; it was very interesting. And I really liked what I did.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Could you describe sort of what you were doing in as much detail as you’re comfortable with?</p>
<p>Giulio: Sure. You know, I’m not sure if it’s classified or not. I would imagine at this time it may be not—may be unclassified. The fuel rods for N Reactor were—I want to say about this long. The outer tube was about that big around. And then there was a smaller tube about that big around that slipped inside there. So how those were produced were the uranium core billets—that’s what they were called—and they were extremely heavy, very, very heavy. They came in billets that I believe were about that tall and about that big around. They were put through an extrusion press. They had to have cranes and little carts and stuff to wheel them around with. I didn’t take part in that particular job. It was a very dirty job. [LAUGHTER] Very hot. I don’t remember the foot-pounds of pressure that it was pushed through, but it was pushed through the extrusion press and came out in a very long tube. Like probably as long as this room, if not longer. I believe—well, of course they had different sizes. They had the larger size and the smaller size that they produced. And then they were cut into the lengths that we needed. I didn’t take part in that. [LAUGHTER] Let me see. I’m trying to remember the exact order. And then they were run through a salt bath. Two different type—no, not two different types. There was just one type of salt, but two different temperatures. They were hung from a rack that kind of—it would look like a carousel, and these huge, huge salt baths. It was molten salt, is what it was. I did do this for a while. You loaded the rods onto the rack and this carousel would lift it way up and take it over and slowly dunk it into the first molten salt bath, which—I don’t remember the temperature, but it was extremely high. That was a fairly dangerous job, because you had to make sure that no water got in there. So you had to make—you had to blow the rods off, make sure there was no water, because it was reported to explode if you got water in the molten salt. So it went through that first salt bath, it raised up, and went to another salt bath which was cooler. Then I want to say water after that, different temperatures of water, and the thing came off. At that point, it went to I want to say an acid etch. Because the billets, when they were pushed through the extrusion press were coated with graphite, and this helped it go through the press, obviously. So you had to wash off the graphite. Yeah, you washed off the graphite and etched it and they came out in this very shiny—it looked like aluminum, but it was really pretty. And then we would—yeah, they would take a—[LAUGHTER] I’m trying to remember this! I don’t remember exactly how it was done, but the ends, they had to etch out the ends, because they were to the end with the uranium. So they’d etch it out, probably about that much. Then it would go through what we called brazing. In the braze room, you put the fuel rods upright, heated it up, and put beryllium rings in the end. No—put the beryllium rings in before it gets hot.</p>
<p>Man Off-camera: [INAUDIBLE]</p>
<p>Giulio: [LAUGHTER] Sorry my story’s so boring. [LAUGHTER] That’s funny. [LAUGHTER] I like it! [LAUGHTER] So, anyway. You put the beryllium ring at the end, heat it up, and the beryllium ring would melt and meld with the outer core. And I don’t remember what the outer core—not the outer core, but the outer cladding was. I’m sure it wasn’t aluminum, but it would melt. And then another part would be—something—how did they do that? Don’t remember. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I did—wow. I just really don’t remember the whole process. But it’s–yeah, there’s a huge, long process. At one point, we would weld the ends shut. And I want to say that was after they brazed it, because the brazing would melt the cap, and then it would get cut somehow. I don’t think I did this.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: It sounds like a lot of different sort of technical skills.</p>
<p>Giulio: A lot, yeah, a lot of manual skills. But a lot of it was done by machinery, too. And the photograph that I have is for the—it was called the TIG welder. This is one of the larger fuel rods, and you’d put like a rubber thing in there and twist it tight so that the argon would not get out. This was what we called the Chuck, and it swiveled on this little thing, and you would insert this end into the Chuck and it would go around and around and around. On the other end, there were tungsten, little—I don’t know what they’re called—that would heat up inside the chuck here and weld this part shut. Apparently, I was one of the best ones they had. [LAUGHTER] At least, that’s what they told me; I don’t know if it was true or not.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was the picture taken by a coworker?</p>
<p>Giulio: No, there was a photographer that came through at a certain time. I don’t even remember why. But this particular picture was in the Federal Building for the longest time. When it finally came down, they gave it to me. And this right here where it says, “I love you, Teena, 1981,” that—I sent that to my father. And then when he passed, of course I got it back. But he kept it for a long time. But yes, this particular picture was in the Federal Building on a wall, on an easel, I’m not sure, but I want to say it was probably close to 15 years. [LAUGHTER] So, yes, the welding part was part of the process, and then there was another process where it was etched out so that there was a little ch-ch-ch-ch on each side. Then it would get stamped with the specific number. I did do the stamping. It was all done with a little hammer. You’d just kind of put in the numbers and go whack! Stamp the numbers in.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was this all learning by doing, or was there a formalized training process?</p>
<p>Giulio: No, it was all on-the-job training. And yes, I did, I liked all of it. Oh! I remember now. Yeah, because right next to the station, on the other side, was where it was—the part was etched out. Yeah, I did that, too. It was done with lubricated water. Then there was also a quality control type of thing where it was all done underwater with—was it radar? Some kind of a sensor, the fuel rod would turn around and around and around, and this little sensor would go along the fuel rod to see if there was any gaps between the cladding and the uranium. Because when you got heated in the reactor, if there was any gaps, it would explode.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Giulio: So there was lots of quality control measures that were done also. We had an autoclave where they would test the fuel rods, where they would heat the fuel rods up in this autoclave to the temperatures that would be heated in the reactor. That would be the better place for it to blow. [LAUGHTER] But they always had—they always checked the welds, they checked the cladding, they checked the uranium, all of that along the whole process. And I did almost all of that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What was the timeframe for this?</p>
<p>Giulio: Early ‘80s.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay.</p>
<p>Giulio: Early ‘80s. And this says 1981, so I believe I started out there May 18<sup>th</sup>, 1981, and I worked out there for four or five years. I don’t remember. I took a leave of absence and then came back as a security escort. [LAUGHTER] Which—I liked that, too.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: By the early ‘80s, was it unusual being a female technician out there?</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: What was that like?</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes. It was—it really wasn’t too much different for me, because I had always had male friends—close friends. I got along with most of the guys, except for some of the older guys. They didn’t take too well to women being out there doing their job. There was a little bit of harassment. But it was very subtle. Let me see. I want to say there was--one, two, three, four, five--six women in the whole building, doing this very large job, and I was one of them. So it was definitely one of those first steps for women into this man-dominated career.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. How many people would be working at a time roughly?</p>
<p>Giulio: Almost all of us.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Right, but what sort of scale of workforce at the time, would you estimate?</p>
<p>Giulio: In my particular area?</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure.</p>
<p>Giulio: Probably 50 to 60.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay, interesting. Let’s see. Can you describe some of your coworkers for us?</p>
<p>Giulio: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: In just sort of broad terms.</p>
<p>Giulio: Well, we had the older guys who had been out there since the beginning of time. Most of them were pretty nice. There were a couple characters. One I had kind of a soft spot for, only because he was kind of a codger. His name was Ralph. He worked in the sandblast area. He was kind of hunched-over, not a real happy guy. But he was really, really nice. During break time he would put his safety goggles up on top of his hard hat and he’d take off for his break. Then he’d come back, has anybody seen my goggles? Where are my safety glasses at? [LAUGHTER] And the whole time they’re on top of his head. And somebody would say, Ralph, check your helmet. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know why he appealed to me. Probably because he was so unique and I’m attracted to very unique people. [LAUGHTER] Then of course, we had the age 30 to 40 men. That was kind of like they had started out there, maybe five to ten years before I had. Then of course, the younger generation, which I would have been.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Let’s see. Did a lot of people come in and out of those roles, or was it a pretty steady set of people?</p>
<p>Giulio: It was pretty steady set of people. Occasionally we would get new people, but mostly it was pretty steady. When somebody met retirement age, of course, we just kind of moved into different roles, or they would hire somebody new.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So you were gone before the end of N Reactor?</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes. Yes. I remember just after I—well, actually thinking, as I was doing the security escort job, thinking I should probably find something offsite, because I don’t think this is going to last much longer. [LAUGHTER] So that’s where that ended.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Do you have the impression that was sort of a common feeling at the time?</p>
<p>Giulio: I didn’t at the time have that feeling, but I do now. I do now think that it’s just—okay, it’s one thing after another. You’ve got one site that closes, well, another one’s still open, you’re going to go do something there. Or it’s a new job in another area that’s taken up. Especially with the cleanup effort that’s going on out there now. It’s not the—is it privatization? Is that what they’re calling it? I don’t remember. But, yeah, it’s becoming non-government work anymore. Yeah, and I remember thinking that it was probably a good idea for me to get off site.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How much emphasis was there on transparency in the safety risks of what you were working on?</p>
<p>Giulio: Can you repeat that?</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So, how much were you sort of made aware of any health risks—or how much emphasis was there on safety while you were working out there?</p>
<p>Giulio: I want to say there was not as much emphasis on safety as there is these days. I know today it’s almost fanatical. I mean, it’s like everything from paper cuts are analyzed. But there was a very strong safety culture, only because we were working with heavy machinery, heavy material, sharp objects, hot objects, the potential for cuts and smashes and all kinds of things were very prevalent. They wanted you to be aware of what was possible. But, as I said, I don’t believe it was as prevalent as it is now.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm, sure. So do you have any kind of specialized nuclear training for working with those materials, or just sort of general warnings?</p>
<p>Giulio: Actually, I was going to say no, I didn’t have any training, but I did. There were several training classes that we were required to go through on a yearly basis. What they call Rad Worker, which was radiation worker training, general safety training, and—I’m trying to remember what else. So, yes. Yes, I was trained.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure. Can you tell us about the security escort job?</p>
<p>Giulio: [LAUGHTER] The security escort job. I actually liked that. It did get very boring at times, because we weren’t allowed to—there was no cell phones, for one thing. We weren’t allowed to read or play cards or do anything like that. I came back at that time because I had had a Q clearance, which was one of the highest clearances you could have at the time, which I got during the mail carrier job because I was handling classified information at that time. I escorted—it was mostly construction-type workers, trade workers, into buildings and areas where they needed to go to do their job. I stayed with them until they did their job. Sometimes it was really boring. [LAUGHTER] But I met a lot of great people. That was probably what I liked most about all of my jobs, is that I met a lot of great people. I liked everything that I did from mail carrier, metal operator, and the security escort. Security escort was lots of fun, because I got to go lots of different places onsite. It was 200 East, 200 West with the well drillers, with the construction people, in the 105 Building, out at 100-N, which is where I met my husband. [LAUGHTER] I was in—no, I wasn’t in the 300 Area. It was mostly at the 100 Areas and 200 Areas, and sometimes out in the deserts with the well drillers and geologists.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How was it you met your husband?</p>
<p>Giulio: [LAUGHTER] Through a mutual friend, actually. The friend had been trying to get me to go out with him. But I told him it was—I like you only as a friend. So it was the 109 Building, actually. I went in there with the construction workers and this friend, Kurt, yelled down from the top of the stairs, Hey, Stoner! What are you doing? [LAUGHTER] Stoner’s my maiden name. So I went upstairs to speak with him for a couple minutes, and my husband was sitting at a desk. So Kurt and I talked back and forth a little bit and I looked over at my—well he wasn’t my husband then—at Monty, and there was just something that kind of clicked. I was like, man, I’d like to know who that is. I thought his name tag—they were patrolmen—I thought his name tag said Guido. [LAUGHTER] Come to find out, it wasn’t Guido. That’s just what they called him. So I went back downstairs with my construction workers and did my job and went home. As I walked in the door that night, the phone was ringing and it was Monty. He had looked up my name and was calling me to see if I would go out with him, and I did.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was, even in general, sort of social scene built around the Hanford workers, or was it just sort of a Tri-Cities scene and that happened to be—I guess I’m trying to get a sense of what was the social scene like for relatively young people in that era.</p>
<p>Giulio: [LAUGHTER] A lot of going out on Friday nights. [LAUGHTER] That kind of seemed to be the thing to do, is on Friday nights, everybody would meet at some place, usually in Richland, for a couple drinks and if anything took place afterwards, go to somebody’s house, and have some more drinks and maybe watch TV. Yeah.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Did you have any hobbies?</p>
<p>Giulio: I liked to ride my bike. At the time I didn’t do much hiking, but I like to do that. I think I pretty much worked a lot. Worked a lot, went home, and took care of my home.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure. Let’s see. I went through those.</p>
<p>Giulio: Hobbies—what else did I do? Boy, that’s a long time. I like cars. So I would go to car shows. I had a couple friends who were in bands, so I would go watch the bands at different venues.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Such as where?</p>
<p>Giulio: In the park. At different--[LAUGHTER]—different bars around the Tri-Cities. So I’d go have a couple drinks and listen to them, and during their breaks, they’d come and talk to me and we’d have some fun. Yeah. At that time, a lot of it seemed to revolve around drinking. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Let’s see. How much was sort of secrecy or security a part of your Hanford working experience?</p>
<p>Giulio: As mail carrier, it was—I didn’t read the classified material. It wasn’t addressed to me, so I didn’t open it. But I definitely had to keep it very secure and make sure it got to the correct person, and that they—they had to sign for it, also. So there was this custody—chain of custody type of thing. The paperwork—okay, I received it, yes, I filed it, I got it to the person it was supposed to go to, he filed it, I kept that piece of paper, and then what paperwork needed to go back to whoever sent it—had to make sure it got back to that person also. Not a lot of secrecy at that time, other than the classified material. The metal operator job—not a lot of—no.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay. Let’s see. Were there other pictures there, or was that it?</p>
<p>Giulio: Oh. This was a picture that I found when I was going through my father’s paperwork. I’m not sure where or when it was, or even what it’s all about. This is my father right here. He was never one to really smile much in photographs. I think I recognize this person, but I can’t recall his name. I believe it was one of my father’s friends at the time. Like I said, I don’t remember what it was or where it or when it was, and there’s nothing on the back! So. Yeah.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Let’s see. I had a question that blanked out of my mind. I hate when that happens. While I’m thinking, anything we haven’t discussed that you had thought maybe would be worth sharing?</p>
<p>Giulio: Hmm. [LAUGHTER] A story that my grandmother told me. [LAUGHTER] Ha. When they moved out here, they had just started all the Alphabet Houses. They had started building them, and they were able to get into one. She told me, at that time, nobody locked their doors. Because it was all government, everything was—all the repairs were taken care of by the government. The houses were painted, the landscaping was placed, all of that. She said that one night, her and my grandfather and my mom and her brothers went out to—I don’t know if it was dinner or a movie—but they had gone out. They came home and pulled into the driveway, everybody got out, and she—I think she said my grandfather walked in first. He opened the door and walked in, and then she walked in, and she’s standing there holding the door, and she goes, Sam, this is not our house. [LAUGHTER] But it was all dark. It was dark enough in the night that all the lights were off, and most people went to bed fairly early back then. Yeah, she said that they very quietly went out the door and shut the door. I guess they had gone one house farther than what they needed to. But she said it was pretty spooky. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So you grew up here in the ‘60s, ‘70s and onward. Was the Cold War or the anti-nuclear stuff, or the other sort of national stuff something that impacted your life at all, or was that just sort of out?</p>
<p>Giulio: It did impact my life to a certain degree, yes. Because coming from this area, most of us had been around it for the majority of our lives—or all of our lives. When I moved to Yakima in the mid-‘80s, I met some anti-nuke people. Or a lot of the people that I became friends with were decidedly anti-nuke. I met one gal who had actually come to—I don’t know if they called it a protest then, or what—but they would breach the fences, and then they’d get arrested because they were on government land. So, yes, I became friends with someone like that. I tried to explain to them the measures that were taken so that the average Joe didn’t get contaminated—as far as I knew, the measures that were taken. And of course, they’re all thinking everybody glows green out here or blue. You touch something, you get your skin scrubbed off with a wire brush. That was in the age of <em>Silkwood</em>—is that what the name of the film was?</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I don’t remember.</p>
<p>Giulio: Me either! [LAUGHTER] It had Meryl Streep and Cher and somebody else in it, I don’t remember. Yeah, I think it was <em>Silkwood</em>, Karen Silkwood. Okay, so we’ll stop that. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Oh. But that wasn’t really a point of contention? They were able to sort of live with disagreement with you on that, I guess?</p>
<p>Giulio: Yeah, we agreed to disagree. I don’t think they were particularly pleased that I had worked out here or was working out here, but—</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How have the Tri-Cities changed over the course of your living here?</p>
<p>Giulio: Oh, my gosh. It’s not so Hanford-centered, which I find very nice. We’ve got different companies in here with different missions. I’ve seen part of the reservation opened up, and different businesses in there, and not even nuclear-related businesses. Which I find refreshing, so that it’s not like this entity that is just sitting there taking over. Yeah, it’s much—the Hanford site is much smaller now. There’s no special nuclear material out there anymore. Obviously, there’s waste out there, or else we wouldn’t have the cleanup effort that we have going on—which, by the way, I like that also. Not exactly sure how it’s going or where it’s going or what’s happening to it, since I don’t work out there any longer.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay.</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes. Nice to hear about that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay. I think those are the main questions I had written down here. Anything else that comes to your mind?</p>
<p>Giulio: Not that I can think of.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Great. All right, well thanks so much for being here.</p>
<p>Giulio: Thank you!</p>
<p>O’Reagan: All right.</p>
<p>Giulio: And if you’re interested in speaking to my cousins, I can give them contact information. If you’re interested in speaking to my husband, I can talk to him, see if he would be—because like I said, he started out there in 1986 and he’s held every position on patrol except for training.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Yeah, that’d be great. Emma helps coordinate all that, so she’s already been in contact with her—</p>
<p>Giulio: Yes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I can tell her to ask.</p>
Duration
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00:40:31
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317 kbps
Hanford Sites
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100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
2-East Area
K-West Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
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1961-1965/66
1973/74-today
Years on Hanford Site
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1981-1986
1986-?
Names Mentioned
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Ralph
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Teena Giulio
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Teena Giulio conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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05-04-2016
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
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2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
105 Building
109 Building
2-East Area
200 Area
200 East
200 East Area
300 Area
Cold War
drinking
Hanford
Houses
K-West Area
Kennewick
N Reactor
War
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd24bb8f61d5a3ab812b92b65fdb12fb3.JPG
4603d9664f2a0077ae96546b4e6df8ea
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Robert Franklin
Interviewee
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Bob Ferguson
Location
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Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
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<p>Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Robert Ferguson on December 21<sup>st</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Bob Ferguson: Yes. Robert, R-O-B-E-R-T. Louis, L-O-U-I-S. Ferguson, F-E-R-G-U-S-O-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great, thanks. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work at the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I was in the Army. I had spent three years in the Army and I was at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. And a friend of mine stopped by that was sort of at the end of my obligation, and his father had worked here. His name was Fred Boleros. And he told me about GE here at Hanford. So, it was my first job when I applied when I left the Army, was with GE at Hanford. They accepted my application, and that’s how I happened to come to Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what was the job that you applied for?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I came under a program called the—[LAUGHTER]—bear with me.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Can you cut, can we cut, or you’ll cut?</p>
<p>Franklin: We can edit.</p>
<p>Ferguson: We’ll edit?</p>
<p>Franklin: After the fact, yes.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay.</p>
<p>Emma Rice: Tech grad something?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Yeah. The tech grad program. It was the tech grad program. It was a program to—for GE to find out what your interest was as well as their interest in you. So, anyway, I signed up for that, and I had three assignments with that. One in operation, one in reactor physics, and one in radiation testing. My permanent job—my first permanent job with GE was as a reactor physicist at C Reactor. But we did physics work—at each of the reactors, there was an onsite physicist and an onsite engineer. We rotated to all of the different eight reactors in the course of our assignments during relief work. But I was permanently assigned to C Reactor—C Reactor Physicist.</p>
<p>Franklin: C Reactor?</p>
<p>Ferguson: C Reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and where is that located in relation to B, D and F?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, as you probably know, the first reactors were B, D and F. And then HDR and then H, and then C Reactor in K-East and K-West. So C Reactor was one of the newer reactors, before the K-East and K-West design. And it was collocated with B Reactor in what was called the BC Area. They were right next door to each other.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And was that based off of the same design as the B Reactor?</p>
<p>Ferguson: It was a different design. Higher power level and a little different fuel design. And because it had a higher power level, it had also a higher flow rate.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of water?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Of water, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. And how long did you work as a reactor operator?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Physicist.</p>
<p>Franklin: Reactor physicist, sorry.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. Well, actually I was asked—I guess because of my interest in operation—I was asked by GE management to go into their management program, which was an accelerated management program. And so that took me into operations. And so to accelerate the learning process, they had a school in the evening that they sent us to. But also, we had supplemental crews. For each of the shifts, there was a supplemental crew that went from each of the reactors, in the case of outages or in the case of startups, where they needed extra people. So you learned in the supplemental crews, all of the operation of all of the reactors in a very short period of time. So from there, then, I was assigned as a shift supervisor at B Reactor. So I was an operating supervisor at B Reactor. In fact, I was the youngest of shift supervisor that GE had at the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. Where were the classes held for the management program?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, there were two kinds of classes. There were—WSU had—actually there were—WSU and some of the other western universities had a program here. But they were technical programs, and then GE in the same facilities, in what—the old barracks area, near where the DOE headquarters is now, the RL headquarters, in that area. But they no longer exist. They were in huts.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, Quonset huts.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Quonset huts, yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: World War II—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Had you gone through any other—before you took the tech grad program with GE, had you had any training in nuclear physics or anything?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I had a degree in physics, and I’d also spent a year at Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville, Alabama in guided missiles. So, there was a lot of related work in the guided missile field to the nuclear field as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: And were you in the Army because of the Korean War?</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, I went into the Army from—I was graduated. Went to Gonzaga University and graduated in ROTC, and had a commission. And because I signed up for the guided missile program, I had a three-year commitment then, rather than just two years of active duty.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But it was—we were on alert in my junior year of the Korean War. And then the Korean War, fortunately, was over in my last year. So, I was able to miss that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. Can you describe the B Reactor as a place to work?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it was—actually, a fascinating facility. I don’t know, perhaps, if you’ve been there.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve been able to take the public tours.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But the operation of the reactors were fascinating. You can picture that there’s eight reactors operating 24/7, seven days a week. At that time, there was pressure for more plutonium for the Cold War. It was during that period of time when there was a lot of tension with Russia. It preceded, actually, the Cuban Missile Crisis by a few years. But anyway, there was intense pressure for production, so we were—GE was very sensitive about the time operating efficiency of the reactors and the power level of the reactors. B Reactor, when it was first designed was designed for 250 megawatts. And when I was last in the control room, we were operating over 2,000 megawatts. We used to—in order to get more power, we used to—Bonneville would lower water from under the dams so our inlet temperature was lower. The operation of the reactors—they went once through the reactors, and so they had to keep the outlet temperature below boiling. And so you wanted the maximum delta <em>t</em> across the reactor, you could get so the lower the inlet temperature, the higher the power level you could get, maintaining a safe margin in the outlet temperature. But also at that time, we were experimenting—I participated both in the physics side as well as the operations side—in the use of flattening of the pile. And by flattening, I mean flattening the flux so you could get more power level, or better distribution and more production, in any one cycle. And so we used—we experimented with splines, which were boron designed things that would go under the process tubes, and you could jack them in actually from the front face of the reactor in order to flatten the flux of the reactors. We also did poisoning at that time of the reactor. A temporary poisoning, so we could start the reactors up at a higher power level. Because the operation of the reactors was very complicated, because you had different temperature coefficients that affected the reactivity of the reactor. So you had a positive graphite temperature, but that was—the graphite would heat up over time. And so that would increase the reactivity, and you had a negative temperature coefficient—fast reactor coefficient. And then the coefficients would change as the amount of plutonium occurred in the reactor. And so the operation of the reactors were really dictated by the design coefficients, but, more importantly, by the discovery of xenon and iodine, which shut the reactors down when Fermi was here. That was—they didn’t even know about the xenon absorption of neutrons at that time. And so when the reactor was first started, it shut down. And they had originally—perhaps you’ve heard this story, that originally the reactor was designed for about 1,500 process tubes. But then DuPont doubled it to 2,004 in order to—for safety margins—and they needed all of that safety margins to override the xenon. But anyway, when you’re at steady state operation, and then you shut the reactor down, then the buildup of iodine that then decays into xenon, and xenon is a poison. So if you were operating at full power and the reactor scrammed, you had a very short period of time in order to bring the reactor up to power level. Otherwise, you were down for 30-hour outage. So that meant that you lost production during that period. So we basically devised what we called quickie plans. This was especially true—we were experiencing a lot of ruptures at that time because we were pushing the envelope of the design of the fuel. It would rupture, and then we’d have to get rid of that, because they’d been once through on the water, the radioactive material would go directly into the river. So anyway, when we had a rupture, we would need to get it out of the reactor. But you only had a few minutes. At that time because of the power levels we were operating at, we only had about 15 minutes to recover. And that meant planning a crew in the rear and the front, and alerting the people in the powerhouse, because you had to bring the water pressure down. But you had to keep plenty of water on the tubes, because otherwise the temperature—outlet temperature would be very high. So you had a very difficult time to valve on the front. So I would go—I would basically stay in the control room and have a supervisor in the front and rear. And then when we shut the reactor down, we would do all of this valving, kick the rupture out, and then restart. And you’d have to restart the reactors to about two-thirds of the power that you were at, otherwise you’d go sub-critical, and you’d be down. So it was a very delicate challenge to start it up to a power level that you could—without running out of rods, then, because also the higher power level, the more reactivity you had. So, it was a—it’s something that I learned in physics, because that’s what the physicist did. He calculated all these transients. So when I went into operations, it was sort of natural for me to be able to manage this kind of thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. And so—that’s also, like, kind of real-world application of all of that physics that you had learned, right?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: How did—I think it’s hard for people who—especially younger people—to imagine doing all of that without digital technology. It’s always been something that’s really fascinated me. And I’m wondering if you could speak to that or if you’ve ever thought about that at all, that the kinds of—maybe you could talk a little bit about the kinds of equipment you had to work with, and the limitations of using the analog readouts in the control room.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, that’s a very good question. The reactors had to be operated when you started them up—what we called a blind startup, because we didn’t have instruments that told us how subcritical we were. So, you had to—the physicist would calculate the reactivity coefficients for the operation, and depending upon the precursor operation, would determine exactly what the startup conditions were. But because we couldn’t measure the subcritical condition of the reactor, we had—we pulled to about—well, it’s called 100<em>n</em> hours subcritical, then pulled into that. But we had people at a PC manually, if you can imagine, manually counting the count rate as we approached criticality. Because if you pull too many rods out, you can get into a fast period, which will shut you down. So we had to do all this manually. And you probably, having seen the control room—you had 2,004 process tubes. Each one of those tubes was monitored for pressure on the inlet and temperature on the outlet. But those gauges had to be manually moved and adjusted by a crew in the front of that panel—the panellette, that whole 2,004 panel in the control room, right to the right of the control panel. Anyway, you had a whole group of people on startup in ladder-like things that would roll those gauges, instrument man on the rear, but he had to keep the gauges within a range, or you’d trip. So as the water pressure came up, you had to roll all of those. But this was all done manually. And then we had ways of—we had devices that calculated the power level, but it was very deceptive. So those of us that had been trained in physics could basically do a lot of those calculations in our head on the power level. Because what I’ve experienced—I’m sure others did, too—that if an instrument failed, say a flow instrument failed on one side of the reactor, it would indicate you’re only at half of the power level that you’re actually at. So you needed to look at other instruments, and you learned to look—like there was an instrument called a Beckman instrument, which monitored the radioactivity on the rear face. So by walking the control room and looking at all these different instruments, you could check one against the other. But it was all very, very, very, manual. And we did our physics calculations on Marchant calculators, you know, the calculators you punch.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Ferguson: We did all our physics calculations on those at that time. And they were just introducing the IBM 650. GE had a computing facility where we would punch the cards and get some central computing for some of the physics work that we did. And that’s also where they kept track of the production in the reactors. If you could imagine keeping track of eight reactors with 2,004 tubes—there were more than that in the K reactors—but the six older reactors. And keeping the production in each one of those tubes was a function of the flow through that tube and the reactivity and the temperature of each one of those tubes. So you had to keep track of how much plutonium was being produced, because if you leave the fuel in too long, the buildup of plutonium-240 builds up. And so weapons-grade plutonium is about 6% to 10%. So we were operating at getting really pure weapons-grade plutonium. Something below the—at least 10% of 240, because it was—in the early design of the bombs, they found that if plutonium-240 spontaneously fissions, it creates a background. And if it’s too high, it’ll get a premature detonation of the bomb beforehand. So that’s why we had to manage the production. And that’s why there were frequent shutdowns. Unlike commercial reactors, where you operate a long time. And that’s why people confuse—plutonium that’s produced in commercial reactors has a high 240 content which is not good for weapons.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, interesting, okay. So you’re saying—I just want to paraphrase so that I can make sure I understand. So you’re saying that it was the nature of the weapons process that the fuel would only be in there for a short period of time in order to get—and it’s plutonium-240—which one is the--</p>
<p>Ferguson: Is low. 239 is the weapons grade.</p>
<p>Franklin: 239 is the weapons-grade.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And 240 is the low grade.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so that you wouldn’t build up too much 240. So—</p>
<p>Ferguson: And that required a frequent charge and discharge of the reactors.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so in some way, then, the energy reactors by nature are just not really meant for weapons.</p>
<p>Ferguson: They’re the opposite of that. You want them to run. The Energy Northwest reactor which I was responsible for building—it was called BNP2 at the time. But they recently set a record of running for over two years without a shutdown.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because you also want—when you’re producing energy, you want a reliable output of energy—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, fixed, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: You don’t want to be starting and stopping and have that kind of fluctuation in the grid.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s really—I think that’s a good basic point to have established for anyone who’s doing research on that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But an interesting subset of your question about instrumentation. Rickover, in the nuclear navy, who relied on analog instrumentation and ways of measuring things. Because he wanted people to really run the reactor all the time. He didn’t want any risk of that. So it was a transitional period in the nuclear business. And some of the instrumentation that was designed to detect neutrons was very new at the time. Even the badges that we wore, at that time, did not detect neutrons, both fast and slow. And so we had to do experiments on the front face of the reactors to be able to predict what dosage you’d get from neutrons, rather than alpha, beta, and gamma. Because it was not known then exactly the biological effect of neutrons on the human body.</p>
<p>Franklin: Given that the reactors ran, most of the time they had 24-hour shifts, I’m wondering if you can describe to me kind of an average day as a nuclear physicist operating the B Reactor.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it depends—well, let me answer that by, when you—at that time, you couldn’t drive your car out to the Site. So you came to the 700 Area, and there was a—lights up there that indicated which reactors were running. And that told you, if you were a supplemental crew, which reactor to go to. But anyway, to answer your question, if the reactor is operating normally at full power, it’s very—typically, you’d go in and you had about a 15- to 20-minute transfer process from one crew to the other. We kept a detailed log of the activities during our shift. You’d do a—we would typically do a count of the uranium slugs that were stored in the front face so that we’d keep materials accountability. So we would make sure that from shift to shift, there was a transfer of accountability for the slugs that were there. There was a transfer of any ongoing activity that would be taking place. But during normal operation, we had two operators in the control room and then a chief operator. And then the other operators would be picking fuel up out of the basins. That was all done by hand. If you’ve seen the reactor, the fuel would come out, go down in chutes. But all of those fuel elements had to be picked up by hand through the water—through 20 feet of water, put in the buckets, and then those buckets would be transferred under water over to a station where the railcar would come in from the 200 Area, all underwater. And then that bucket that contained the radioactive slugs would be, then, taken by railcar over to the 200 Area where it would be reprocessed. So, that—typically, then, you’d do maintenance work that could be done when the reactor was running. And then you had a daily routine of walking through the whole reactor. It’s very interesting; you could—Robert, you could tell, after you’d been there for a while, by the sounds if things were okay. If there was a shrill sound where the water pressure coming through, the water flowing through the reactors, and all of the different fans had different sounds. So you walked the reactor—always walked, went to the rear—in the rear of the building is a little place with a lead glass shield that you could look through to see the rear face. So you’d check the rear face for any anomalies, for leakage, or anything like that. And then you’d have your—we always had a health physicist on each shift. He had his rounds to check on the radiation levels in different areas. And different areas were controlled depending on whether there was radioactive material or contamination in the area. We had step-off pads, where you’d go from one area to another. Dual step-off pads, if you had a highly contaminated area. And the people—some of the crew would sort laundry as well. Because we went through a lot of laundry, because you had to change into what we called SWPs, special material when you came on shift. So anyway that would be rather routine. Now, during an outage, or during a startup, then you have a beehive of activity. The place that we—the shift supervisor had total control and authority over the running of the reactor. So even the manager and other people that were there for startup, they would have to leave, because of the intensity of the operation during startup. So, if it were an outage, you went into—you were doing charge/discharge. So you have a front face crew and a rear face crew, and you’re doing a lot of physical work. The charging machines would—you’d have to load them up by hand—load the slugs by hand. So it was—it’s hard to explain the level of activity that was going on during an outage. Because we would have maintenance. We would have some maintenance on the process tubes that had to be removed because they were leaking. So we’d have to—the maintenance people would come in and remove those. So it was very, very, very—it’s like a huge manufacturing operation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Ferguson: But a lot by hand. So the dichotomy between—you’ve got a very sophisticated—you get no sound from the reactor itself but a lot of sound from everything that runs the reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: The water and the electronics and everything.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. And the reactors were cooled by—inerted by gas by helium and carbon dioxide. And so one of the auxiliary rooms was a place where you controlled mixture of the helium and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of the reactor. Because you could change the reactivity by changing the temperature of the graphite. You could heat it up with CO2 and cool it off with helium.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. So how long did you work as a reactor physicist—nuclear physicist and shift operator?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, nominally about two years as a physicist and about two years as an operating supervisor. So it was about 50/50 while I was here. I’ll tell you, interesting story. Probably we don’t want to put it on television, but—on September 27<sup>th</sup>, 1960, I was—it was a Tuesday, and I was starting the reactor up. And I got a call that my wife’s water had broken and she was on the way to the Kadlec Hospital to deliver our second girl. So it was the first time in history a reactor went critical the same time a woman went critical. [LAUGHTER] I could tell you exactly where I was standing in that reactor out there when that happened. I’ll always remember that. And Kadlec Hospital at that time was just Quonset huts, as well.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah, wow. Thanks for sharing. [LAUGHTER] Where did you—I’m assuming you guys lived in Richland while you worked out at Site, right?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so you lived in Richland during—so you would have lived in Richland, then, while it was a government town and then also during the transition.</p>
<p>Ferguson: When we first came here, the government owned the town, and we lived in a B—I was going to say B Reactor. [LAUGHTER] Okay. We lived on Kimball—1524 Kimball in a duplex.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And then the second home here was a ranch house. But then, while we were there they sold. And when we were first here, GE provided coal. We had coal for our heat and lightbulbs. Those were all provided. I think we paid $47 a month rent at that time. And then the town was sold off. And our neighbors had the right to buy the B house.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because they had been there longer than you?</p>
<p>Ferguson: They were one of the original occupants. And so then we rented from them. So we were here during that transition.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you describe that transition? What you remember, or your thoughts on it?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it was very interesting. When we first came here, there was—and one of the reasons that the road system is the way it is is because of the security in the town. There was only one road in at the time and one road out. And that’s the way—you had to be cleared in order to live and work in Richland during that time. And so we—you know, we had a bus system that picked us up. We had a—during that time as well, those of us that worked in radiation levels, every month we’d have our urine sampled. And so the people that worked there set their bottle out by the front door to be picked up and monitored. So then as the town—after the town was sold off, then, there was more interest in changing the—upgrading the buildings, painting, and more things like that. So you could see the evolution from a government-owned town to private ownership. More and more attention to yards and things like that. So we—my wife and I—my family experienced that transition. And we left—came here in 1957. I left here in ‘61 to go to Argonne. And then we came back in 1972, and the town had totally changed, then. When we came back, we looked at a couple of houses in Meadow Springs and the realtor told us it would be pretty iffy to buy there, because that may not go. And there was a dirt road at that time between that and Columbia Center. Columbia Center didn’t exist when we were first here. We came back, and here’s Columbia Center. So having left here and come back, we’ve seen this transformation of the Tri-Cities. Rather remarkable.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And how come you left Richland in ’61?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, actually I was in the control room of B Reactor when we heard about an accident in Idaho called the SL-1 accident.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve heard about that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: It was a military accident that killed three military people. Anyway, it’s kind of a long story, but I’ll make it pretty short. Part of the accident investigation indicated that there was no one AEC organization responsible. The reactor was designed at Argonne in Chicago at Argonne National Lab, but built and operated by the Army at Idaho. And they Idaho office wasn’t responsible; Chicago wasn’t responsible for making sure. So anyway, I was recruited by AEC to go to work up with the AEC to set up the safety program for what was then called the Second Round reactors. These were commercial reactors that were built to encourage the development—commercial development of nuclear power. But Argonne had a lot of reactors at the time, both at Idaho, as well as at Argonne. Both thermal reactors, research reactors and fast reactors. And so anyway, I was recruited because they were looking for people with actual physics and operations experience to work in safety. And so, shortly after I was there, I was sent to Oak Ridge School of Reactor Technology for an accelerated program in state-of-the-art safety. But then we—anyway, then we did a review of all the reactors under Chicago. And those were reactors at Idaho, reactors at Santa Susana in California, Atomics International reactors. And then we had commercial reactors at Piqua, Ohio and Hallam, Nebraska. And—oh, there were two other ones, anyway, that were funded by the AEC, but privately owned. But the safety responsibility was the AEC. So anyway I went back there because of the emergence of the need for people with actual operating experience. There were only two places: that was Savannah River and here at Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And up until that time, you had not worked with commercial reactors; you’d only worked on production.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Yeah, there were no—no, that’s correct.</p>
<p>Franklin: So can you describe that transition? How was that for you? Even though you would have had operating experience, like we talked about earlier, the operation of the commercial reactor is almost opposite. The purposes are very different. And so I’m wondering if you can describe that transition.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it’s also a cultural transition. And one of the difficulties in the development of commercial nuclear power was because of this cultural issue. Some of the utilities were oversold on the ease with which nuclear power could be used to produce electricity. And so they didn’t understand the need for the training and the quality assurance and the rigorous of operation. And that led to some accidents in the early days, because the utilities really were not sensitive to that. Admiral Rickover was even worried that the private sector, the commercial sector, was not able to manage nuclear. And he was afraid that they would have accidents. And that’s why he built and operated Shippingport, which was one of the first commercial reactors, but it was built by the Navy. But anyway, it was a cultural change. And after the SL-1 accident, it was really a wakeup call even within the AEC for the need for rigorous oversight, rigorous design review, design construction, and operation. The need for safety at all of those areas from the time you procure a piece of equipment, to its built, to its put in operation, and then maintained. All of that was new to the industry. So I actually lived through that transition, I guess, if you would call it that. Because GE was—and DuPont were very rigorous in their safety. Very rigorous. Because people didn’t really know much about nuclear power at that time, or nuclear energy.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re saying some of that safety-consciousness kind of came over from the folks involved in production, who then went on to commercial.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve—when talking to people similar to yourself who’ve been in the industry, very familiar with nuclear production and power, I’ve often heard that the nuclear industry is one of the most tightly regulated and safe industries, or focused with safety. And I’m wondering how you feel about that statement, how you would respond to that.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, it is, because of the potential or the risk. Even though the commercial, there has been no deaths in the commercial nuclear industry in the United States, the potential is there as well. I can just give you a little feel for that. Three Mile Island was a very bad accident, but nobody was hurt. I was there. I was—fifth day of the accident, I was in the control room of Three Mile Island. It was really a bad accident, but nobody got hurt. On the other hand, I was at Chernobyl after that accident. That was a very, very bad accident. A lot of people were killed in that accident. People don’t really understand that—going back to your question about the rigorous safety requirements—Russia did not have a requirement for containment for their reactors. So, Chernobyl had no containment. You couldn’t build and operate that kind of a reactor in the United States. So, one of the issues that emerges from the rigorous safety criteria is the difficulty in transition to new instrumentation, for instance. Because you had very prescriptive regulatory requirements, it was more difficult, basically, to introduce new design, new equipment. And it’s one of the difficulties of the nuclear industry, unlike cars where you’re changing them often, it’s very expensive to build one. And then it’s hard, as innovation and changes take place, it’s hard to introduce those in the course of the licensing. So our licensing system has changed somewhat. You used to have to have two permits for commercial reactor. A permit to build it, and then another permit to operate it. Now those are combined into one, because you wouldn’t want to spend all the money to build a reactor and then not be able to run it. And for the antinuclear community, they used that as a way to stop the operation—or the startup of a lot of reactors. That caused a lot of expense, too. So anyway, it’s been a dynamic change, but not as rapid as your iPhone and changes like that, which can be made very quickly.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, thank you. Really illuminating. I really like that you mention that there was a cultural transition into the commercial reactor, and I assume, there, you’re talking about dealing with utility companies, but I’m also wondering, was there—did you also work with—because you mentioned fast reactors. Did you also work with scientists and people from the university side of operations when you moved into commercial power?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And was that also part of the cultural shift?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, for instance, going into Argonne—Argonne was where the nuclear technology started. I mean, Argonne came from Fermi’s work in Chicago, basically. All of those scientists went to work at Argonne. And they didn’t like to be—scientists don’t like to be regulated or overseen. And so that’s the reason that the reactor—many of the reactors that Argonne worked with were put in Idaho, in a remote area, where you could do a lot of experimentation away from a big city. So that’s where the series of reactors called the BORAX Reactors, where you could actually explode them—pull into a fast period and cause a prompt critical. But you could do that in Idaho because it was so remote. But anyway, it was always a certain amount of tension between research. And one of the current issues right now, there is so much regulation in commercial reactors, it’s hard to introduce any new technology. For instance, Bill Gates is investing in a reactor being designed in China. And he would do that here, but he went to the NRC and it’d take him 24 years to get a permit just to build it here. So, the rigorous licensing process also inhibits development of new technologies. And we don’t really today have a good answer for that. We need to have an intermediate step where you can work on new reactor designs that are not ready for commercial operation yet but need to be run. Because unless you can do experimental work, you can’t develop anything new.</p>
<p>Franklin: But that experimental work is held up by the regulations—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Of the regulations, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you think the public has an inadequate understanding of nuclear technology in general, and nuclear power specifically?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, there’s a lot of work has been done with respect to why people fear nuclear which is really very safe, statistically. The probability of being hurt by a nuclear accident is essentially zero. Yet, people will get in their car and they’ll drive their car. So there’s a lot of psychological fear. And a lot of that fear, we think, comes from the use of nuclear technology for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In other words, the notion of equating weapons with nuclear power. And that has continued to this day, because many people don’t understand here at Hanford the difference between commercial waste and waste from both the Second World War and the Cold War. It’s a very different issue, but people think of it all as one. And one of the problems is that with the evolution of the organization that manages that. I mean, I worked, when I was head of the FFTF project, I worked for the AEC, I worked for ERDA, and I worked for the Atomic Energy Commission in the same job. And so you can understand then. And that—the weapons program is still in the Department of Energy. I’m a big advocate of removing it, because—and removing the waste from the commercial—to create a separation. As long as they’re managed together, how do you expect the average person to believe that they’re not one in the same thing? Or that the issues are not one in the same thing. So that fear of nuclear is real. And there’s been a lot of work done about why people fear it when it is not really unsafe. And generally you find that the people that work with nuclear are very comfortable with it. And the farther away you get, the more fear there is. For instance, here at Hanford, people are very used to working with it. We have clean water. You go over to Seattle, they want to tell us how to—why to be afraid here at Hanford. Well, we live here. We drink the water, we eat the fish. We’re not fearful of it, because we’ve lived with it. We know it. So a lot of that is proximity.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, thank you, I appreciate you expanding on that. It does give it a troubled reputation, doesn’t it? Since the birth of nuclear energy is related to death and bombings and then was a very visible part of our very large stockpile of nuclear weapons.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And it still is a threat with the proliferation. And it’s a huge threat.</p>
<p>Franklin: And to have a peaceful arm of that, though, I think to some people maybe they confuse both heads of that same—</p>
<p>Ferguson: That’s not unnatural that they would do that. The other thing that’s happened, you know, we had—Three Mile Island happened right after Jane Fonda’s movie, <em>The China Syndrome</em>. And then we had Chernobyl. And then we had the accident in Japan. So these big accidents get a lot of publicity. And there’s a lot of fear that comes from the reporting of that, which isn’t always accurate. Because the nature of reporting is to make things dramatic. And so it gets dramatized in the public. So it probably will take generations to—people to address that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because certainly our current—where we get our current energy from is also a problematic source of energy, in terms of its political and human and environmental costs.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right. The irony is that 20%, nominally, 20% of our electricity comes from nuclear. 70% of the carbon-free generation—70% comes from nuclear. And so there is no way the country can ever meet its goal of carbon emissions without a greater use of nuclear power. Because solar and wind are both intermittent. You can’t store them. For instance, if you had to rely on them during the cold weather we just had—we had no sun, it was cold. Where would you get your energy? Where would you get your energy? And the other thing that people really don’t understand is that both wind and solar are nuclear energy. Their source is nuclear energy from the sun. The sun—and the earth gets all of its energy from radiation from the sun. Yet people don’t think of that radiation as bad radiation. They think of that as good radiation. And other radiation, from nuclear power, is bad radiation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting, I don’t think I ever thought of it quite like that before. But it’s very true.</p>
<p>Ferguson: All of the weather comes from absorption of energy from the sun in the oceans, creates the wind, picks up the moisture, delivers it. That’s where we get our hydro power. Solar power—all of that is nuclear energy from the sun. The sun is our source of nuclear energy.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, even in a way then oil is also from the sun, because it’s decomposed carbon matter—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Originally—</p>
<p>Franklin: Originally.</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, really, it preceded the sun in the sense that it was a part of matter when it was created at the Big Bang.</p>
<p>Franklin: True. So I’d like to go back—tell me about coming back to Richland to work on the FFTF. What brought you back from Argonne to Hanford?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, the people—the assistant manager at Argonne for the AEC I had worked with there—and he became the manager of the Richland Operations Office. And then another fellow I had worked with there, Alex Fremling, became his deputy. And so they asked me to come back. They were having a lot of difficulty with the management of the contracts here. And I’d had a lot of experience in project management at Argonne in both high energy physics and reactor projects, and a lot of experience in contracting. So anyway, I came back and I was originally head of contracts. And then shortly after that I was made technical director for the Site. That was at a period when—or at a time, in 1972, when 106-T leak occurred. That was the 105,000-gallon leak that really was the first major leak of radioactive material from the tanks. And it’s the first time the public then became aware of the real problem here at Hanford. And so I was on the investigating committee for that event. And we went back to—Dixy Lee Ray was Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission and then subsequently our governor. But we asked for a supplemental appropriation--$20 million supplemental appropriation to start building double-shell tanks. So that’s when we started building the double-shell tanks, thinking that there would be a solution fairly soon. And I can take you all the way back to when I was with GE, I did some—one of my jobs there, I measured some—the radiation level in some of the tanks, because as early as that time, GE was concerned about leaking tanks. Because the radioactive material in the tanks stratifies. The radiation level is different and it creates a temperature stress in the tanks. So we were—as early as then, we were worried about tanks leaking. Now—that was 1958, ’59. Here we are in 2016 and we’ve got leaky tanks and no solution. [LAUGHTER] Not much progress.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sadly no.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Anyway then FFTF was in trouble from a cost and schedule standpoint. So I was asked to set up the FFTF Project Office. And the manager of Richland went back to Washington, and he became head of nuclear energy in Washington. His deputy became manager here—Alex Fremling became manager here and so they—we’d all worked together. And so they asked me to set up the FFTF Project Office.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And that’s when—in 1973—I stayed here until 1978 and then Jim Schlesinger, the chairman of—Secretary of Energy for DOE asked me to go back and take over the nuclear program in Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what do you feel like you got accomplished from ’73 to ’78 on the FFTF Project Office?</p>
<p>Ferguson: We built the most remarkable fast reactor test facilities that’s ever been built. At the time that I was asked to take it over, there was a member of the—Bill Anders—who was the astronaut that went around the moon the first time. Anyway, he was a member of the AEC. But he helped me get the project office set up based on the way NASA set up their offices: decentralized. But he told me that the FFTF was far more difficult technical job than putting a man on the moon. So the development of the technology that we developed and demonstrated with FFTF was really incredible. And a lot of that technology’s now being given to Japan—to China—for their new development program. A lot of the sodium technology, the fast reactor technology. So we accomplished a lot. But it didn’t—and then it got killed. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right, it did. I wonder if you could talk about that. What happened to the FFTF?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, at the time FFTF was built, the policy of the United States and the Atomic Energy Commission was to reprocess and have breeder reactors. And so that you would take the fuel from commercial reactors, reprocess it, take the plutonium out of it, use that plutonium for fuel for fast reactors. So essentially, by using fast reactors, you have basically an unlimited supply of energy. So that was the policy when FFTF was built. Clinch River was to be a commercial demonstration plant at Clinch River in Tennessee. Clinch River was killed when Carter came in. Carter killed the breeder program because he thought that—first of all, he didn’t think nuclear was going to be here to stay, and he didn’t want to—thought reprocessing would facilitate the spread of nuclear weapons around the world. Because when you do reprocess, you can use that same technology to extract plutonium for weapons. So it was killed for that reason. And Carter was pushing coal at the time, saying we had, essentially, an abundant supply of coal. And so he thought that nuclear really wasn’t going to—it was a last resort, as he put it. Because of our lack of reprocessing, we have influenced the design of Yucca Mountain for the deep geologic storage. Because at the time that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act in 1982 was set up, there was a conflict between those that wanted to reprocess and those that didn’t want to reprocess. So Yucca Mountain is designed for retrievability. It’s designed for permanent storage of defense waste, but retrievability of commercial waste. So at some date in the future, it could be reprocessed. Because about 90% of the energy value is still in fuel once it’s discharged from a commercial reactor. So anyway, that decision has affected a lot of subsequent issues that the country has faced.</p>
<p>Franklin: How come the program didn’t come back under Reagan?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, in January of 1982, I was asked to participate in a—that’s when Reagan was president, and George Bush, Sr. was his vice president. And he called a meeting that I was invited to, to discuss what was going on in nuclear at that time. And at the time, I was head of WPPSS. And the cost estimate—this was post-Three-Mile Island. The cost estimate for plants was going up, they were having delays. And so Reagan called this meeting from executives to find out what could be done with nuclear. Well, as a result of that meeting, then, we were instrumental in getting the Nuclear Waste Policy Act started which he then proposed as a way of dealing with commercial nuclear fuel. Because up until that time, there was no solution to commercial nuclear fuel. So—and there still isn’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: There still isn’t. Because Obama killed—or tried to kill the Yucca Mountain project. But we stopped him from doing that. I was one of the principals—law suit that the courts ruled that he didn’t have the authority to do that. But he stopped it. So now there is no solution, yet, to what to do with commercial fuel. So commercial fuel is now stored all over the United States at all of the reactors.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. How did you become involved with the WPPSS project?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I was recruited out of Washington.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re just back and forth from here to Washington and then back.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, people that had known about my success in building FFTF and turning that around—and it turns out Senator Jackson was one of those. And so when I was recruited, I’d been in the government 20 years, and I was still pretty young. I didn’t want to leave the government, because I had no retirement. I wasn’t old enough to retire. Anyway, Senator Jackson told me that if I would come out and solve the WPPSS problem, he would make sure I got back in the government. Well, a long story short, I came out and I did solve, I think, the WPPSS problem. But I also had open heart surgery and ruined my health and then Senator Jackson died. So I never went back into the government. He died and I never had a pension. So—[LAUGHTER] so that’s what WPPSS did to me! But anyway, I was recruited—going back to your question—there was a national recruitment because of the difficulties WPPSS was having building the plants.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did you work at WPPSS for?</p>
<p>Ferguson: Three years, ’80 to ’83.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what did you do after that?</p>
<p>Ferguson: I started up a company, R.L. Ferguson and Associates, a consulting company. And we sold that to SAIC. And then I started up another company, Nouveau Tech. And we acquired a nuclear waste facility that’s out here, now it’s called PermaFix Northwest. We acquired that out of bankruptcy from ATG. And then in 2007, I sold that to PermaFix. And since then, I’ve been writing books and consulting.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you’re still not retired.</p>
<p>Ferguson: No. I’m still consulting.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still consulting. But still on—</p>
<p>Ferguson: And I’ve written two books on the nuclear waste issue, so—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, great. Well, which two books are those?</p>
<p>Ferguson: <em>Nuclear Waste in Your Backyard: Who’s to Blame and What to Do About It</em>. And the first one was called—I can’t remember the name of it. Something about Obama and Reid wasting money. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah. Tell me about your involvement with the Tri-Cities Nuclear Industrial Council, TRICNIC, which later became TRIDEC.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, after I left WPPSS, I was asked to be the chair of TRICNIC. Because I was kind of in a period when I was trying to recover for my health. And so Sam Volpentest was the executive vice president, and Glen Lee was publisher of the paper then, and Bob Philips was the president. And they would ask me to be the president of TRICNIC. And then because of the need to diversify the economy in the Tri-Cities, we merged TRICNIC with the Tri-City Chamber, and that became then TRIDEC. And so I was the first president and chair of TRIDEC, when it was formed. And Sam stayed on until his death. He worked up until he died. And then Gary Petersen took over his place to head up the Hanford part of TRICNIC.</p>
<p>Franklin: I wonder if you could talk about working with Sam Volpentest.</p>
<p>Ferguson: There’s been a whole book written about that. [LAUGHTER] Did you read it? The godfather?</p>
<p>Franklin: I have, yeah, <em>The Community Godfather</em> by C. Mark Smith.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Much of my life is in there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Ferguson: [LAUGHTER] But anyway, no, yeah, he was one of those remarkable people that you know in your lifetime. He worked right up until he died. I told a story at his funeral—a eulogy—I said, you know, the clock was set right after 5:00 because he wanted to put in a final shift before he died. [LAUGHTER] So he died right after 5:00. [LAUGHTER] But Sam was very devoted to the Tri-Cities and the economic development of the Tri-Cities and spent his whole life on behalf. But he was probably largely responsible for my—or one of the reasons for taking over WPPSS, because he was close to Senator Jackson. I had worked with him in the community on FFTF as well. When I took over FFTF, we not only—the prior head of the nuclear in Washington had testified it would be completed for $187 million. But we didn’t—not only couldn’t you complete it, we ran out of money that year. And Sam was instrumental in TRIDEC—or TRICNIC was instrumental in getting a supplemental appropriation to keep FFTF. That’s one of its early, early almost-deaths. So I started working with Sam in the community at that time. So then when I left WPPSS, I was asked to get more involved.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. I’m wondering if you can remember or can tell me about any kind of notable events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you were working out there. I think you would have been gone for the JFK visit, which was in ’63, but if there were any other—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right, I was at Argonne then.</p>
<p>Franklin: But if there were any other notable events or incidents that happened at Hanford while you worked there.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh. Other than the leak? 106-T leak?</p>
<p>Franklin: Pretty notable. Or maybe in general in Tri-Cities history, or any—did you ever go to any of the Atomic Frontier Days parades or anything like that?</p>
<p>Ferguson: No, I didn’t, no. I’m trying to think of—well, 10,000 people marched in support of keeping WNP-1 alive. Have you ever seen that picture?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes.</p>
<p>Ferguson: 10,000 people, can you imagine that?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes, yeah, that’s—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Supporting nuclear power? Where else in the country could you do that?</p>
<p>Franklin: Not too many places.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I’m trying to think, what--?</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s okay if you don’t.</p>
<p>Ferguson: I really—I can’t.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s one of my stock questions.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Franklin: You know, in case something pops up.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So, I guess—let me look over this.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Probably told you more than you want to know!</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, we’ve covered quite a bit. And I just have kind of one last question that’s kind of a wrap-up question. But I’m wondering what you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland in the Cold War.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I think it would be very important, and I think it’s even important for this generation to understand the circumstances under which people operated the reactors. There’s been a lot of public criticism about the fact that we discharged waste into the ground. And people just, I think, don’t understand the pressures and the circumstances. The major thing people should understand is that Hanford was very carefully chosen because of the potential risk of an accident or even discharge of radioactive material. The selection of Hanford is unique in the location. The 200 Area, it’s unique in the sense that under the site is a layer of caliche, it’s like cement. Overlaying on that is sand. And they looked up on this as basically a way to hold up the radioactive material and they put it in the ground. And so it wasn’t just people being careless or anything like that. There were the pressures and unknowns. People didn’t know a lot about nuclear, but there was an incredible safety record in spite of all of that. So anyway, I think the big disappointment I have is that the waste hasn’t been take care of, and it’s mostly a political issue than a technical issue. It could have been taken care of a long time ago, but it’s terrible. It’s an issue that has become politicized.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because sites with smaller amounts of waste have been able to encapsulate—begin or even in some cases finish encapsulation programs like West Valley, Savannah River—have been able to deal.</p>
<p>Ferguson: And most of our waste out here doesn’t really have to be vitrified, either. It’s high activity, because of where it came from, by law. It came from reprocessing. But it’s high-level waste, but it’s low-activity waste. And so if you remove the cesium from it, you could basically secure the waste in a cementaceous form and send it to Texas. About 80% of the waste could be done and we wouldn’t even have to build a vit plant. So it’s been—the design of the Vit Plant was wrong from the beginning. The Hanford waste is unique from a lot of different wastes, in that it’s such a mixture of so many different kinds—it’s not homogeneous. So the design of the Vit Plant, rather than have multiple facilities to treat separate kinds of waste, they basically have a pre-treatment plant where they want to treat all of the waste to make it in a consistent form to feed into the melter. Well, the pre-treatment plant is what’s stopping everything. So there’s been a lot of—you know, I’ve lived through about three or four different starts of the Vit Plant. So, I’ve seen it, and it’s very frustrating to see how political it has become, and a lack of science-based decisions that are made.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I’ve seen some of the bumper stickers, I forget exactly what they say, but I’ll paraphrase here: Vitrification in 2007, or Hanford Vit Plant. You know, 2007 or 2004. And then we’re—it’s 2016 and we’re still waiting.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Still waiting. Still no—</p>
<p>Franklin: Perhaps—as you said, perhaps for a plant that is not the best approach—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: --to the problem. Well—</p>
<p>Ferguson: Sam Volpentest predicted before he died that the Vit Plant would never be built because of the cost. And now you’re seeing it being questioned because of the cost. People are saying, why do we have to spend this kind of money? Because it’s—about $3 billion comes here every year for Hanford, including Battelle. But it’s a huge amount of money. It’s like the WPPSS plants. People used to say, well, we have to build them no matter what. Well, they got too expensive and the need for power went away, and so they didn’t get built. So there comes a price when things are not affordable. And there’s not really a risk to the river. The waste needs to be treated and cleaned up, but there’s no risk, really. There’s no health risk. The flow of the river is so great, any material gets in there is so diluted you can’t even detect it. But that’s not a solution. Right after 106-T, Battelle did some studies for us, just what-if studies. And we said, what if all the waste went in the Columbia River? Well, downstream, it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s so dilute. Not that that’s—I’m not advocating that at all. But it just shows you that the risk to the health and safety of the public is not—does not demand what we’re doing with the waste out there. It doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taken care of. I’m just—because at one time Sam and I faced some members of Congress who wanted to put a fence around Hanford and not do anything with it. Just leave it there. [LAUGHTER] So, anyway. I’ve been there, done it.</p>
<p>Franklin: So at least we’re away from that solution.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Well, I hope we’re not going back there. But when the price gets so high, people away from here and the demand for money in the budget gets so tremendous, it’s—strange things can happen.</p>
<p>Franklin: They sure can.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, Bob, thank you so much for coming in and interviewing with us today.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay, Robert.</p>
<p>Franklin: I really appreciated it.</p>
<p>Ferguson: I hope I didn’t cover too much for you.</p>
<p>Franklin: You did a great job; we touched on a lot of really great things. So thank you.</p>
<p>Ferguson: Okay.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:14:41
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
700 Area
C Area
B Reactor
Vitrification Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1957-1961
1972-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1973-1978
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Fred Boleros
Admiral Rickover
Alex Fremling
Bill Anders
Clinch River
Sam Volpentest
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Ferguson
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob Ferguson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-21-2016
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-01-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
200 Area
700 Area
Atomic Energy Commission
B Reactor
Backyard
Battelle
C Area
C Reactor
Cold War
Department of Energy
DuPont
Energy Northwest
Hanford
Mountain
NASA
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Savannah River
School
VIT Plant
War
-
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bf75b261e2b75becbf2be621e89efa72
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1dd18530d8068508b6d8fed49e87ab2e.mp4
6bba4faf1df15a9c196d5923a31d04a7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Charles Davis
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Charles Davis on December 19<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Charles about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Charles Davis: It’s Charles Davis. C-H-A-R-L-E-S D-A-V-I-S.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great, thank you very much. So tell me how and why you came to the area to work for the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>Davis: Back in 1977, I got out of the Army and I was working at Fort Lewis as a civilian. And it was a just-barely-over-minimum-wage job with no benefits, and I was looking for employment. And one of the employment people suggested I try out for Hanford. And it was Rockwell at the time. I came over and interviewed for Hanford Patrol and was hired.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And when did you start at Hanford Patrol?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, I started working for Rockwell in August of 1978. And I went through the training for Hanford Patrol starting in January of 1979.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what did you do for Hanford Patrol?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, I was a patrolman. I worked most of the time out of the 300 Area until the 400 Area got its own headquarters. And then I was one of the people that moved to the 400 Area. Later on in 1980, I believe, I became one of the first four AMS—Alarm Monitoring System—lieutenants.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. AMS stands for Alarm Monitoring System.</p>
<p>Davis: Monitoring System.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so that was the electronic system, then, that, like, was monitored at a central location?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, there were several of them. One of them was around 234-5Z in 200 Area. That was the first one. And then around the 324 complex in 300 Area. And around the protected area at the 400 Area, Fast Flux Test Facility.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So we—a couple weeks ago I did an interview with Bob Parr.</p>
<p>Davis: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you know him?</p>
<p>Davis: Yes, I do.</p>
<p>Franklin: He also worked as—and he mentioned the development of this system and how it changed—or kind of changed some of the tasks of the patrolmen. Or how—I think he mentioned that before, Hanford Patrol was kind of antiquated in its security systems, and I was wondering if you could talk about that switch from the older system to this alarm monitoring system and how it changed your job.</p>
<p>Davis: Well, before the Alarm Monitoring System went in, everything was visual. You had to be onsite and looking to see something happening. After the AMS system came in, there were several different systems around each of the Areas. There were microwaves, motion detectors, there was the Israeli fence, which was a taut wire fence. If you stretched it this way or to crawl through it, it set off an alarm. If you cut it, it also set off an alarm.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was called an Israeli fence?</p>
<p>Davis: Israeli fence, because the Israelis were the ones that developed that technology.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. Would that get triggered often by wild animals or tumbleweeds or anything, or was it pretty—</p>
<p>Davis: The microwaves did, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah?</p>
<p>Davis: And there were also cameras surrounding the protected areas. And if you got an alarm, the camera would come on automatically. For that particular location. They also—the cameras rolled through the security screens, so you’d see everything in a—I can’t remember the timeframe—two or three minutes. But if an alarm went off, the cameras automatically focused in on that particular location.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>Davis: They also had cameras on the inside of Dash-5.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And in fact, the first time we were out there training on the system, they had a problem. They had a plutonium container break, and it crapped up quite a bit of the backside and main hallway in Dash-5.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. Was there—were you near that area, or were you just in the building?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, the place where the alarm monitoring system was located, the control room was in a separate building.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: But it was within the protected area.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. But you’re saying though, that—it’s interesting that when you were training on that system, in that building there was like a pretty serious accident—</p>
<p>Davis: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --that occurred. Okay. And I guess you probably would have been pretty new on the job still, then, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, I’d had two years on Hanford Patrol--</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: --but only a month or two as an AMS lieutenant.</p>
<p>Franklin: So kind of describe for me the—you know, your average workday, both as a patrolman and then later as an AMS lieutenant.</p>
<p>Davis: Well, the patrolmen were security for the Site. So most of the time, we were at a fixed location, at a gate or at a barricade like the Y barricade or the Yakima barricade, and we checked badges of people coming in.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And then what about as an AMS lieutenant?</p>
<p>Davis: That was mostly sitting in the control room, monitoring the system. Although the systems weren’t fully operational for a while after the four of us were promoted to lieutenant. So we assisted the shift lieutenant and did whatever they needed.</p>
<p>Franklin: Hm. How come the systems were only installed in those select areas?</p>
<p>Davis: Because those were the protected areas.</p>
<p>Franklin: Protected areas, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So what designated a protected area from a non-protected area?</p>
<p>Davis: Mostly it was where plutonium was stored, and that had other classified information.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And how long did you work on the AMS system?</p>
<p>Davis: Up until I got out of patrol in August of ’82.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so just for a couple years then?</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then what did you do after leaving AMS?</p>
<p>Davis: I became a nuclear process operator.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And I worked at Dash-5. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. And what is a nuclear process operator?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, I was hired to do terminal clean-out. And there were two production lines at Dash-5: the A line, which was the original one, and then the C line. We were going to be doing terminal clean-out, or getting it ready to be destroyed, for the A line. And they figured there was somewhere around 3,000 grams of plutonium in the system, and we would get about half of it out. And that was based on a non-destructive assay. And it turned out we got over 5,000 grams out, and there was still about 1,500 left in it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so there was kind of more than double the original estimate.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. And was that plutonium usable, or was it in a form that was not usable?</p>
<p>Davis: It was scrap—powder and mixed in with other chemicals. It was all collected, put in little plastic jars about this tall, and stored. It could have been sent through the Plutonium Reclamation Facility and reused. I can’t remember if any of it was or not.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. To give, I think maybe our future viewers and myself an idea—how much is 5,000 grams of plutonium? Like what size, what amount would that be? Can you compare it to something?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, a plutonium button usually runs around 2 kilograms or 2,000 grams, and it’s about the size of a hockey puck.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. Which is why they’re sometimes called pucks.</p>
<p>Davis: Right. The scrap we were getting out was mixed with other stuff, so it was—the volume was a lot larger.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. So there were 5,000 grams of plutonium mixed in with a lot of other—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, I see. And how long did it take to do the terminal clean-out of the A line?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, we were also cleaning equipment out. And the whole thing lasted well over a year.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And then what did you do after that?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, then we went on to removing a vacuum system. There was a vacuum system throughout the facility that people used for various processes. And one of the things they used for, at the beginning, was if you had some extra solution, they kind of sucked it up and so it disappeared. Well, it didn’t really disappear. It went into the piping and kind of sat there. And these were about six inch in diameter pipes. And in some locations, they were half-filled with various stuff. Chemicals mixed in with plutonium. Kind of like a salt cake.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So kind of similar to the waste tank scenario, then.</p>
<p>Davis: Exactly.</p>
<p>Franklin: There’s stuff in there from the process and no one really knew the exact elements and concentrations of chemicals and things.</p>
<p>Davis: Correct.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Davis: And we took the piping out, pipefitters cut it, the operators bagged it and lowered it down, and then it went into storage boxes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then I assume those were disposed of in like a solid waste landfill, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: I’m not sure where they ended up.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. This—what you’re describing sounds a lot—similar to what’s going on there today, in terms of the tear-down and demolitions of the buildings.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about kind of the protective measures that you and your coworkers worked in and the kinds of safety equipment that you used then. You don’t have to compare it to now if you don’t know the current—but I’m just kind of curious as to how—what the kind of precautions and kind of culture of safety was then.</p>
<p>Davis: Okay. Well, of course, whenever we were on the backside of the operations side of Dash-5, we were in SWPs. Which are canvas overalls.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And whenever we were working in a glovebox, we taped up with surgeon gloves. All the gloveboxes had lead-lined gloves in them. And if we were doing anything that might be—might cause a puncture in the gloves, we wore either canvas or leather gloves over them.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: When we were taking the vacuum system out, we would build plastic greenhouses around the area that we were working in to control contamination, in case something happened. We went in usually with two pairs of coveralls, and respirators. Sometimes we only used air purifying respirators, and sometimes we used power air purifying respirators.</p>
<p>Franklin: What’s the difference?</p>
<p>Davis: The powered ones had battery packs and it was forced air. So you always had a positive airflow through your mask, so if anything happened, the air went out, rather than when you were breathing in, it could get around the edges of your mask and be pulled in if you didn’t have a good enough seal.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, okay, I see. And I assume you wore dosimetry equipment—the personal--</p>
<p>Davis: Yes, all the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: What kind do you remember? The badge kind, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: Every once in a while we used the pencils, but not very often during terminal clean-up. Later on, I worked on the RMC line when they were producing plutonium buttons, and then we wore the pencils also. We also had dosimetry on our ring finger.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, the finger dosimeters.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And those were changed out monthly, both the badge TLDs and the ring ones.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. And—great, thank you. And so where—when you finished with the A line, and then you moved to the piping.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: How long did the piping take to—</p>
<p>Davis: Again, over a year.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, over a year, okay. And then—</p>
<p>Davis: And some of the piping was over the office side of Dash-5.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh. So how did you handle that situation?</p>
<p>Davis: Again, we built big plastic greenhouses.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And fortunately we didn’t have a problem. We never lost containment or anything.</p>
<p>Franklin: So that building was still producing—or what was the purpose of the 245—sorry—it was the--</p>
<p>Davis: 234-5Z.</p>
<p>Franklin: 234, what was the purpose of that building?</p>
<p>Davis: It turned plutonium nitrate solution into plutonium buttons.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So it was like a plutonium processing—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And was that still in active use when you were removing the piping and the A line?</p>
<p>Davis: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: However, after we stopped, they—because of the buildup during the Reagan years, they revamped the RMC line and started using it again.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so you’d already taken out the A line, you’d taken out some of—</p>
<p>Davis: Well, the A line actually—when we finished with it, it sat there for another 25 or 30 years, and it just was removed within the last two or three years.</p>
<p>Franklin: So what did you do with it, if you didn’t—you were just cleaning it, instead of removing—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. Was it used again after you cleaned it?</p>
<p>Davis: No, because they took out all of the equipment.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. But the C line was still in use.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. So you removed the piping over the offices, and then what happened? What did you move on to?</p>
<p>Davis: Then we moved on to revamping the RMC line.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what is the—do you remember what RMC stands for?</p>
<p>Davis: Remote Controlled and then C is just like A, B, C, D.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. And what was the purpose of the RMC line?</p>
<p>Davis: To change plutonium nitrate into plutonium buttons.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So you said you revamped it. So what—</p>
<p>Davis: Well, it was sort of mothballed.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: So some of the equipment had to be replaced. Some of the leaded glass windows had to be replaced.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that’s that really thick glass.</p>
<p>Davis: Right. They were inch-and-a-half to two inches thick. And the reason they had to be replaced was you couldn’t see through them. Because of the radiation, they got fogged over. So it was the operators’ job to prepare the area for the boilermakers to go in and actually do the window change.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: You know, union rules. Because it was a pressure vessel, the boilermakers had to do the work on that. That was a pretty dangerous job, because some of these hoods were powder hoods. And if you think of talcum powder, that’s what the plutonium powder was like, so it had a tendency to fly all over. Fortunately, we never had any skin contaminations on any of the window changes. A good pre-job planning, and everybody knew what they were doing.</p>
<p>Franklin: So, when you went in to those hoods, there would have just been powder from the processing in there.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Wow, that’s—so then you were able to change the—or to prepare it—how would you—did you remove the powder, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: As much as we could. But you could never get all of it. And even though the hoods are negative pressure, when you’re disturbing them, there’s a chance for the powder to come out of the hoods.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And how did you handle that exactly?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, we built greenhouses—plastic greenhouses—around them. The people that went in were on supplied air respirators, so it was even more than the powered air purifying. The supplied air, there were large tanks of air inside and hoses that went in, connecting to the mask. And they—people had escape packs, little five-minute emergency bottles, so in case something happened they could still get out. And when we were doing changing the powder hoods, we wore the two pair of coveralls plus a plastic suit. And these plastic suits were made by the plastic shop up on the third floor of the building. So it was a pair of trousers that went up about mid-waist—mid-chest. And then like a parka that went over the top. And then they got taped to the coveralls, and then gloves over them, so there was—you were completely encased in this plastic. Which made it awfully warm, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: I would imagine—yeah, that was going to be my next question. How was it to work in that? I imagine your dexterity is somewhat compromised, and your vision is somewhat compromised. What is it like to work in that kind of suit? Like, I’m imagining you just—your body feels different.</p>
<p>Davis: Mostly hot.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mostly hot?</p>
<p>Davis: When you get out of there, you usually could wring sweat out of your underclothes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p>Davis: Yup.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. Were there any instances of people ever overheating in that? Like, having exertion and not—</p>
<p>Davis: Not that I recall.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, but just very hot and humid.</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then what about trying to manipulate tools with so many layers of gloves on, on the fingers?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, we wore surgeon gloves as the inner protecting. With the surgeon gloves, there’s not a problem.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Davis: At least not for me. I wore as tight of surgeon gloves as I could, rather than having really loose ones like some people did. With the canvas gloves, it was a little awkward.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>Davis: The people taking—like taking the bolts off of the powder hood and stuff, it wasn’t that much of a problem, because they were usually wearing gloves anyway. You know, boilermakers. So they’re used to it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Would the boilermakers also need—I imagine they would also need the same level of protective equipment.</p>
<p>Davis: Oh, yeah, everybody that went in it wore that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So that was a basic level of training no matter—union job—because they had to have different groups of people, like pipefitters to deal with pipes, right, boilermakers to deal with—okay.</p>
<p>Davis: Right. And like on the A line when we were removing equipment, the operators didn’t remove the equipment. Didn’t disassemble the equipment. Millwrights disassembled the equipment. The operators would seal them out of the gloveboxes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And then would you move the equipment, or would teamsters be needed to move the equipment?</p>
<p>Davis: No, we could move the equipment. Because it was contaminated. I mean, it was obviously inside the hood, so it was contaminated.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right, right. Okay. So after the RMC line, where did you move to next?</p>
<p>Davis: I also—while we were working on that, I was also working up in the Plutonium—PFP—PRF, Reclamation Facility. Which is the six-story building that’s attached to 234-5.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and that’s the one that’s coming down—no.</p>
<p>Davis: It’s, I think in the process right now.</p>
<p>Franklin: In the process of coming down right now, okay. And what did you do in the PRF?</p>
<p>Davis: That was also refurbishing it to be used.</p>
<p>Franklin: So this was during the Reagan—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: The Reagan buildup.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And describe refurbishing.</p>
<p>Davis: Changing out piping that was old. It looked like when they shut it down people just walked off so there were tools left inside. The system used nitric acid, tributyl phosphate, in the process. And we would find things like pliers that had been left in nitric acid for a year or two and were sometimes almost as sharp as knives, because the acid would eat away.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Davis: And we’d seal that stuff out. We were replacing pumps and—</p>
<p>Franklin: So, like, literally, it looked like they had just walked off--</p>
<p>Davis: Yup.</p>
<p>Franklin: --the job one day in the middle of work.</p>
<p>Davis: Right, just—</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever figure out why that was? Is that actually what happened, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: I think it was, well, we were never going to use this again, so we’ll just leave it. Rather than taking time to clean it up and—</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you know how long it was from when they had stopped work to when you went into start refurbishing it?</p>
<p>Davis: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you have any guesses, based on—</p>
<p>Davis: Probably about ten years.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So it had been a fairly—</p>
<p>Davis: Yup.</p>
<p>Franklin: So there probably was dust everywhere, and—</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah. The PRF had six floors. The top two were just small areas where the top of the columns were. The other four floors had gloveboxes in them where the operations was conducted. And from the control room, which was up on the fourth floor, depending on what exactly they were doing at that particular moment, they’d get out their procedure and run through it. You needed an open valve, whatever number it was on the first floor, and closed valve on the second floor and so on and so forth.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And so how long did you work refurbishing—how long did the refurbishing work take on PRF?</p>
<p>Davis: I can’t remember. Probably six to eight months.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. To get it back ready for operation. And how many men would be working on a project like that?</p>
<p>Davis: [LAUGHTER] That’s a good question. There were quite a few.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: Not just men. Men and women.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sorry. People.</p>
<p>Davis: We had women nuclear process operators.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. And when—were there women nuclear process operators when you started?</p>
<p>Davis: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And so what happened after the PRF was refurbished?</p>
<p>Davis: I moved out to shipping and receiving at Dash-5.</p>
<p>Franklin: Seems like a pretty different job change. You know, a shift.</p>
<p>Davis: It was shipping and receiving radioactive material.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So still handling—but this time handling kind of the finished product instead of cleaning it up.</p>
<p>Davis: Right. Once they started making buttons in the RMC line, they had to go someplace.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And that’s what we were doing.</p>
<p>Franklin: And can you describe shipping and receiving? What was an average day like in shipping and receiving?</p>
<p>Davis: I don’t know if there was really an average day. When we had a shipment going out, the shipments were sent on SSTs, Safe Secure Transports, which are semi-trucks that are specially designed to transport nuclear material.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what does the special design consist of?</p>
<p>Davis: The tractors were armored. The trailers had anti-tampering devices, so to speak. If you look at a regular semi-truck trailer, walls are about this thick. Walls on these were this thick. And I don’t know all of the devices they had in those, but they—if somebody tried to hijack them, it would have been virtually impossible. Somebody said that they had a foam device that if the trailer was tipped over or if it was opened without keys, the foam would come in and solidify around the containers inside. And the trucks were driven by special couriers who were armed. They usually had one to two SUVs traveling with the truck, full of armed men. And I don’t remember ever seeing any women in that group.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And how often would a delivery take place?</p>
<p>Davis: I can’t remember any frequencies.</p>
<p>Franklin: Now, what about receiving? Is that when you would intake the solution to make buttons?</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And describe that process.</p>
<p>Davis: The PUREX plant in East Area was operating at that time, and they separated the plutonium out of the fuel rods and turned it into plutonium nitrate solution. These were shipped over to Dash-5. Most of the time in 55-gallon drums that had inner containers that were about six inches in diameter and two-and-a-half to three feet tall. That’s because that’s a criticality safe configuration. And you certainly didn’t want a criticality to happen.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, so that way you could put two drums next to each other—or near each other, and there would be enough space in between the—</p>
<p>Davis: Right, that and the shape of the container’s cylindrical, no more than six inches in diameter. So you wouldn’t want to just put it in the bottom of a 55-gallon drum, because that would not be a critically safe configuration, and you could get a criticality.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. I wonder how they figured that out.</p>
<p>Davis: Hopefully not through trial and error. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Some things are better figured out not through trial and error. So how long did you work in shipping and receiving?</p>
<p>Davis: About two years and then I moved to the burial grounds and Central Waste Complex.</p>
<p>Franklin: Before we get to that, what was your job in shipping and receiving? Were you just like a clerk, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: No, I was an operator and we loaded the containers.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So you unloaded probably at the receiving end and then—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: I heard from somebody else—I interviewed somebody that worked there and they said the guards on the transport trucks were not a friendly bunch. Did you ever have any interactions with them?</p>
<p>Davis: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or was it just strictly business?</p>
<p>Davis: Strictly business.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: The—never mind.</p>
<p>Franklin: No, no, no, no, no, go ahead.</p>
<p>Davis: It flew out of my mind. Oh, I know what I was going to say. Some of the SSTs were driven around completely empty. And some of them were full.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, probably to—</p>
<p>Davis: So that just because there was an SST on the road, people wouldn’t know whether it was loaded or not. And even if it was loaded to the maximum that they could carry, compared to a regular semi-truck, they were light.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right. Light in load.</p>
<p>Davis: Lightweight.</p>
<p>Franklin: Lightweight. Interesting. I could see how that is kind of a good counter-espionage tactic.</p>
<p>Davis: Mm-hm. And the other thing that we did in shipping and receiving was monitor the vaults where they had both plutonium buttons and plutonium powder in the vaults. And every once in a while, they would come in and take containers out to assay it, just to make sure nobody’s sneaking it out in their lunchbox, I guess. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: And that’s where the can monitoring units were, right? In the vault? Is that where those were employed?</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, we have a couple of those in our collection. And I’ve seen the—you go into the vault and they’re all kind of strategically-arranged around so you don’t have a criticality incident. So you monitored those as well?</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever perform any of the assays, or was it--?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, there were people that actually performed the assays. But operators including myself were the people that went into the vault, take the containers, and put them in the assay machines. Then they’d do the—and then we’d put them back.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was there—anyone ever sneak, that you know of—sneaked—seems like a very risky thing to do for a very small amount of material.</p>
<p>Davis: There were monitors on the exits, and you couldn’t have gotten through. In fact, the monitors would go off if somebody had, like, radiation, iodine, x-ray.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: You know, downtown. And they’d come out to work and the monitor—alarm would go off.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. And so there’s a pretty tight level of security, then, at the Plutonium Finishing—</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah. There had to be at least two people whenever you went into the vault.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. And then there was checks on entry and exit as well.</p>
<p>Davis: Right. And remember the AMS system?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Davis: There were cameras in there so they could see what you were doing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that the same at the other places you worked at? At the 234-5Z and other places? Was the security system similar, was it pretty high—</p>
<p>Davis: Well, the shipping and receiving building was inside the 234-5Z compound. So it was part of that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. And then what about when you were working in kind of the refurbishing or cleanup? Was there also pretty tight security presence there as well?</p>
<p>Davis: Not as much.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Probably because there’s no finished product there.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So then you said you went out to the burial grounds.</p>
<p>Davis: Right, and Central Waste Complex.</p>
<p>Franklin: Central Waste Complex—and just describe that. What went into the burial grounds?</p>
<p>Davis: Anything they wanted to get rid of.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: Low-level waste.</p>
<p>Franklin: Low-level. Solid?</p>
<p>Davis: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: When they started back in the ‘40s, it was back your truck up to the edge of the burial ground and throw whatever was on it into the ditch. So you had drums and boxes every which way, you know, laying on top of each other. By the time I got there, they were stacking them neatly and doing recoverable storage—if anybody ever needed to get whatever they buried out again.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So much more like—I don’t even know how to describe it. But not just like a dump anymore, but in case they accidentally sent something to the disposal that they needed back—</p>
<p>Davis: Right, or wanted to get back to reprocess it later.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh. So what kind of system kept track of that? Like, how would you—how would somebody come and get something back?</p>
<p>Davis: There was paperwork on everything that we put in there. And the paperwork was saved, so if somebody was looking for something, we buried such-and-such item in 1987. They could look through and find out where it went and the position in the trench, how far from the front or the back.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh okay, so it was still being buried in the ground.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so would you fill those when they got full?</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: They, in fact, every so often, they would—as we went from one end of the trench to the other, and when there was a certain number of feet of items that were being buried, they brought bulldozers in and covered the boxes and drums.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Now, what would the process be if somebody needed to get something that was buried by bulldozer out? Would they have to excavate and then—</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah. It never happened while I was there. So I’m not sure how they would do it, exactly, but they’d say, well, it’s <em>x</em> number of feet from the beginning of the trench, and that would be right here, and I guess we’re going to have to dig a big hole and try to get it out. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: And so how long did you work at the burial ground for?</p>
<p>Davis: Up until ’91.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: So another couple of years.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And Central Waste Complex is a series of buildings that they stored radioactive waste in, rather than burying it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So that’s different from the burial grounds, then?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, the people doing the operations were in the same group.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. But the burial—so the Waste Complex, was that—that’s not tank waste, or is that?</p>
<p>Davis: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, that’s just other types of waste.</p>
<p>Davis: Right. There were 13 buildings that were 4,000 square feet and they had just built those when I got into burial grounds. And there were four more buildings built after that. The biggest one was 56,000 square feet if I remember correctly.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Davis: 12 of the original 13 buildings, we received waste from 100-H Area.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And that was from one of the trenches out there that they sent water from the reactors out and let it settle. And they were—it was mixed waste. Radioactive and chemical waste.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh. So how would that—so then that got into the soil, I—</p>
<p>Davis: Right, so then they were digging up the soil, putting it in 55-gallon drums and then sending it to Central Waste Complex with the idea that it would eventually be reprocessed to separate the radioactive material from the chemical material.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. Did that ever happen?</p>
<p>Davis: No, not to my knowledge.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So they just—oh, sorry, go ahead.</p>
<p>Davis: The original containers were 55-gallon drums. And they started getting pinhole leaks from the chemicals that were in there. So they repacked them in 110-gallon drums. And some of those started getting leaks. So they repacked them in plastic drums, bigger—even bigger.</p>
<p>Franklin: Any leaks on those?</p>
<p>Davis: Not by the time I left.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: But those were stored aboveground then, in these buildings.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Probably, I guess, for easy—</p>
<p>Davis: Retrieval.</p>
<p>Franklin: Retrieval and—</p>
<p>Davis: And for monitoring also.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I was going to say, that’s—I mean, that’s obviously how they knew there were leaks in them, which is good. Someone was monitoring them. And so then the other buildings mostly just stored waste that needed to be monitored and retrieved at a—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So what did you—where did you go after the burial grounds or the Central Waste Complex?</p>
<p>Davis: I actually stayed in burial grounds but I went exempt. I went into administration.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: And I was there until 1996 when I was asked to move to T Plant. And then I was the building administrator out at T Plant.</p>
<p>Franklin: And—</p>
<p>Davis: Building administrator is the guy that orders supplies, makes—coordinates moves of people into or out of the plant and things like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was the T Plant doing at that time?</p>
<p>Davis: They were decontaminating equipment.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And the T Plant was one of the canyons, right?</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was one of the canyons where things were remote controlled because of the radioactivity?</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: In fact, it was the original processing facility.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. So that was undergoing cleanup at the time—or a form of cleanup.</p>
<p>Davis: Well, they were decontaminating equipment from other places, plus whatever was in there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And so what—so kind of describe—well, so—sorry. So, they’re bringing in equipment from other places in there to also decon—</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So that was kind of a decontaminating location?</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: So how long did that work take?</p>
<p>Davis: As far as I know, they’re still doing it.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where did that take place? I imagine that the canyon itself—</p>
<p>Davis: In the canyon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh okay.</p>
<p>Davis: The cells where the processing took place was below deck.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Davis: And each cell had a concrete cap on it that could be removed by a crane. And these were probably six feet thick.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Davis: And they were stair-step so you could make a good seal. And the processing—the decontamination stuff took place on the deck.</p>
<p>Franklin: On the top.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Of the—okay. And so I imagine the people that were in there were in full—</p>
<p>Davis: Right. Supplied air respirators.</p>
<p>Franklin: I guess that makes sense, right, because if you’re decontaminating something and it gets crapped up, I mean, you’re already in a pretty hot place.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: As far as radioactivity goes, so you’re not going to wreck a place that has no or very little radioactivity.</p>
<p>Davis: If—</p>
<p>Franklin: what kinds of equipment would you be cleaning up?</p>
<p>Davis: All sorts.</p>
<p>Franklin: From what—from other canyons, or--?</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah, I’m not sure where it all came from.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. But from other buildings onsite.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because at that point it was decontaminate—there was no processing anymore, right?</p>
<p>Davis: Correct.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was just decontamination.</p>
<p>Davis: There is a pool on the north end where, when I got there they had fuel elements in that came from offsite. I’m not—back east some place.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: Sea-something? Seabrook? Someplace way back east, like on the coast. And while I was there, they built a new facility in East Area that they stored the reactor—irradiated reactor fuel from N area. They also took the stuff out of the T Plant pool and moved it over there, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: If you want to talk to somebody that had a really interesting job, talk to one of the crane operators that worked at T Plant.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah? Okay. Do you know anybody?</p>
<p>Davis: I’d have to think on their names. It’s been—[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: 20 years?</p>
<p>Davis: Not quite. About 15 since I got laid off.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so—how long did you work at—how long were you the building administrator at the T Plant?</p>
<p>Davis: Up until I got laid off in 2003.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so you worked for about 25 years—</p>
<p>Davis: At Hanford, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: At Hanford, okay. And what did you—were they just drawing down operations then—</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or were you just kind of a senior person and they were like, well—</p>
<p>Davis: There were 300 people laid off the same day I was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Davis: So it wasn’t like, just you.</p>
<p>Franklin: It wasn’t personal?</p>
<p>Davis: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: But were operations kind of dwindling, then, at that point?</p>
<p>Davis: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: So a lot of the work scope had been accomplished. And then what did you do after you were laid off?</p>
<p>Davis: I worked for the Washington State Patrol.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So kind of back to patrol.</p>
<p>Davis: Right, as a—I was a commercial vehicle enforcement officer.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting. And that’s at the waystations?</p>
<p>Davis: That’s one of them, yeah. I worked down at the Plymouth waystation. And then I got promoted to CVE-02 and went into compliance review, which is investigating trucking companies. And then I went to be the lead worker at the interior detachment for our district, which is from Yakima to the Idaho border.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. How long did you do that for?</p>
<p>Davis: 11 years.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so you just retired from that as well?</p>
<p>Davis: Yup.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then how did you get involved with the B Reactor Museum Association?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, that was something that I was kicking around for a long time to get involved with. And last April I finally said, let’s do it. So my wife and I joined.</p>
<p>Franklin: And why? What was the interest there?</p>
<p>Davis: Preserving B Reactor. These buildings and processes out there just fascinate me.</p>
<p>Franklin: How so?</p>
<p>Davis: Just because of the at-the-time-cutting-edge technology that was being developed. I mean, obviously, you look at what we have today compared to what it was in 1944, but back then it was just amazing. And the facilities—just—I just find them amazing.</p>
<p>Franklin: What other buildings or processes do you wish could be saved or would have been saved on the Hanford Site?</p>
<p>Davis: I think they should save T Plant, because it was the first production facility.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because I mean, it’s also kind of groundbreaking in that way. And you can’t really tell the story of B Reactor without that other half.</p>
<p>Davis: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what else—are there any others?</p>
<p>Davis: Let’s back up just a second on T Plant.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Davis: Back in the 1960s, after they shut down the processing there, they cleaned up the canyon enough so that they invited the families of workers to come out, and they had some sort of function in the canyon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. That is really interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever heard that before. How did you hear about that?</p>
<p>Davis: Some of the operators, when I first went into operations, were at T Plant when that happened.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Davis: And if it could be cleaned up that much so people could actually get into the canyon, I think that would be fantastic.</p>
<p>Franklin: I think I agree—I agree with you. That would really—goes a long way into telling that story. Because otherwise, it—you know, what happens to the fuel after we irradiate it?</p>
<p>Davis: Right. And I think the 400 Area, the Fast Flux Test Facility would be a good addition, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Why is that?</p>
<p>Davis: Because it was a sodium reactor. Sodium-cooled reactor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it’s a fascinating piece of technology. A couple weeks ago we interviewed the guy who patented it, Eugene Astley. And it’s a very—a shame that that reactor didn’t get to kind of live up to its fullest potential, being shut down so quickly after it was created. Can you describe living in—your thoughts on living in Richland—I guess I should ask, did you live in Richland when you worked at Hanford?</p>
<p>Davis: Yes, most of the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Most of the time. What was it like living in Richland during the Cold War and then the shift to not the Cold War and the rise of environmental consciousness?</p>
<p>Davis: I don’t think it was very different than anywhere else.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Davis: I wasn’t there when it was a company town where you had to be working at Hanford, before you could live in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Davis: Those type of questions, I’m sure you asked my wife.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes. We usually do ask, you know, anybody who was there at the time. Did you ever feel an immediacy to the Cold War, kind of living and working in a site that was producing material for the US nuclear weapons arsenal? The fact that Hanford might have been a prime target—</p>
<p>Davis: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --for Russian bombing. Or knowing what the work was contributing to, do you have any feelings about that, good or bad?</p>
<p>Davis: Well, we realized that Hanford might be a target. But we—at least I thought it would probably be other places before Hanford, because anything we produced there, it would take so long to get into the system.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Davis: I was more worried about somebody trying to steal plutonium or technology than somebody dropping a bomb.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you that you’d like to talk about?</p>
<p>Davis: Not that I can think of.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, well, Charles, thank you so much for coming in and interviewing with us today—participating in the interview. You’re not interviewing anything. But thank you. You gave a lot of great detail about some of the cleanup and refurbishment. And I really appreciate that; I think that was really interesting work, kind of working at this pivotal time between kind of the shutdown of the Carter administration and then the uptick in the Reagan administration is really interesting and not really—a story that hasn’t been told really well yet at Hanford. So I really appreciate you shining a lot of light on that.</p>
<p>Davis: Okay, thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great.</p>
<p> </p>
Duration
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00:51:51
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1977-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1978-2003
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Charles Davis
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Charles Davis conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-19-2016
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-29-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
2-East Area
200 Area
300 Area
400 Area
B Reactor
B Reactor Museum Association
Cold War
Fast Flux Test Facility
H Area
Hanford
Plutonium
PUREX
supplies
T Plant
War
-
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cdadd3e83c0c3187276f5e7e8afc64cf
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1583c61c6744d42545aae8cd7b5f497a.mov
045fb4b829211772af34664992cc239c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Bush
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Bush_Bob</strong></p>
<p>Robert Bauman: I’m going to have you start just by saying your name, first.</p>
<p>Robert Bush: Okay, my name is Bob Bush.</p>
<p>Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this interview with Robert, or Bob, Bush on July 17 of 2013. And we're having this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And so I'd like to start just by having you talk about how and when you arrived at Hanford. What brought you here?</p>
<p>Bush: Okay. During World War II, I was overseas. My parents were in the area, both of them working. My brother was also here in Pasco High School. When I came home from the service to Southern Idaho, Korean War broke out. Wages were frozen, and so I was looking to better myself. And I applied by mail. I was interviewed by telephone. And I came up here in 1951 to the accounting department, General Electric Company. They were the sole contractor. And for 15 years, in construction and engineering accounting, which was separate from plant operations at that time. And from there, my accounting career followed its path through several successive contractors. From GE to ITT, Atlantic Richfield, to Rockwell, and finally with Westinghouse. When I retired, I was with Westinghouse for one month.</p>
<p>Bauman: You said your parents were here during the war. When did they come out?</p>
<p>Bush: It was '43. 1943 and '44, my mother worked for the original postmaster of Richland, Ed Peddicord. And my dad was a carpenter. Built some of the first government houses called the Letter Homes. They were here about two years, I think. And then they went back to Idaho, I believe.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And what part of Idaho?</p>
<p>Bush: Twin Falls, Idaho. Where I graduated from high school.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. What were your first impressions upon arriving in the Tri-Cities?</p>
<p>Bush: That's kind of interesting, Bob. Because I came up ahead of my wife and two--year-and-a-half old, and three-and-a-half-year-old sons. About two weeks ahead of them. And so I found a Liberty trailers to rent—the housing was nonexistent. And I found a Liberty trailer, which means it had no running water, no bathroom. It was like a camping trailer, basically. I sent for them. A brother-in-law who had graduated from high school went directly into the Korean War. He drove them up as far as Huntington. I went on a bus to Huntington and met them, came back. And as we came onto the Umatilla side, and I said, that's Washington. Well, there was no green and everybody was disappointed. But that's the first impression. I mean, there wasn't a bridge over the river in Umatilla. It was a ferry. So you drove around the horn at Wallula. Things were just really different.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you said you had a trailer. Where was--</p>
<p>Bush: In Pasco on a front yard of an old pioneer home, where Lewis Street crosses 10th. That was the end on Lewis Street at 10th. And from there west was called Indiana. And there was about three homes on there. And it just quit. And roughly across from the present day Pasco School Administration Building, which was a Sears building. Across the street there was where this home was. I mean, things have just—in the whole area—have changed so much.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did you live there then?</p>
<p>Bush: Until I was called for housing in Richland, which was six months. That was in June, no air conditioning. And finally got into an apartment building, a one-bedroom before with two little boys that slept in the same crib. It was still, basically, wartime conditions. Weren't any appliances for sale and you had to stand in line to get a refrigerator. It was a different world. But we were young, so we could take it.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was this in Richland then, the apartment?</p>
<p>Bush: No, that was in Pasco. After that trailer, that was only about two weeks. And then we want into this apartment, the one-bedroom. Then we moved next door to a two-bedroom in a five-plex. And then in December, six months later, I got the first--I got a housing call from the housing office in Richland, which sat where the present day police station sits. And the lady offered me—she said, you could have it Saturday. It was a prefab. It had already been worn and pulled out. And I kind of hesitated. I said, I've already got something in Pasco. Well, she said, I could let you have a brand new apartment. That apartment was brand new. It was so clean. My wife, who was very fastidious, she didn't even have to clean cupboards. And the apartments have now been torn down by Kadlec for that newest building. And in fact, this morning I just went by and took a picture of Goethals Street, which is vacated. And it was quite a pleasant move to come out of a trailer into—a non-air-conditioned cinder block building apartment into a nice, brand new apartment with air conditioning, full basement, and close to work. And at that time, my office was downtown in the so-called 700 Area, which is basically where the Federal Building is--where the Bank of America is was the police station. And that's Knight Street, I believe. From there north to Swift, and from Jadwin west to Stevens where the Tastee Freeze was, that was the 700 Area confines. Probably about 22 buildings in there. The original thing prior to computers, everything was manual bookkeeping or accounting with ledgers. And they came out with a McBee Keysort cards, and it was called electronic data processing. It was spaghetti wire with holes in the boards, that type of thing. That building had to be a special airlock building. And that's the Spencer Kenney Building beside the Gesa Building. That building is built especially to house equipment. And they just went from there. And I moved around my office. And after 15 years, I went into what they call operations. I was onsite services, which—did that for 17 years. And that was probably the better part of--second better job that I had, I guess. The transportation and everything, onsite support services. The whole point there. That job took me all over the plant. I established inventories. I took some of the first inventories of construction workers' supplies and tools and shop equipment, rolling stock. My name was Mud. They thought so much of me they gave me a desk in the corner of a big lunchroom. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So you did work at various places then?</p>
<p>Bush: Yes. Well, yes. My very first location was in North Richland, then called North Richland Camp, where the bus lot was--the maintenance shops. I'm trying to establish a point up there—what's over there today? There's a big sand dune on your left going by the automotive shops, past the bus lot, where the bus lot was. Opposite that sand dune on the other side of Stevens was a bunch of one-story temporary buildings. That was North Richland Camp. And that's where my first accounting job was there for two or three years. I had been there—I came there in June. And in January of '52, had 22 people along in my department that I worked in. I was a junior clerk at that time. Took me four years to get onto the management roles, but I did. But anyhow, in that room they came in there six months later. After I'd only been here six months, AEC, predecessor to the OA. The AEC has taken over more management, more responsibility. So we're going to be laying off a lot of people. I had only been here six months. And so others grabbed straws and went different places. I always said either I was too ignorant or lucky, I don't know what. But I just sat still and it panned out for the better. I didn't get laid off. I moved from there. But I went downtown to the 703 Building, which stood where the Federal Building is now. There's a building to the rear that the city owns called 703. That was the fourth wing. 703 was the frame construction, the three floors. And the later years, they added a fourth wing out of block building. Made it more permanent. That's why it's still standing today. Now, that was my second location. And then I got on the management role in '55, which meant I went exempt and no more pay for overtime. And went out to White Bluffs site—town site, and that's where the minor construction was located. Minor construction, it's the construction people that are specially trained in SWP, radiological construction work, as opposed to run-of-the-mill construction. And they're the ones that had never had any accounting at all for any equipment, supplies, materials or otherwise. And that's where I had the lunchroom office experience. It so happened that they established--I brought an inventory procedure and established that first inventory during a strike. We had to cut government-owned tool boxes. But still, the workers thought they were private. And we had to cut locks in order to take inventory. And then we feared for our lives when they came back. Pretty rough day sometimes.</p>
<p>Bauman: What timeframe would that have been you were out?</p>
<p>Bush: That was 1955 to '56. A couple of years there, and then another person took over from there and I went into budgeting at that point, from accounting to budgeting. And I did that for--until 1963. And then I moved out to the so-called bus lot, which it was. 105 buses and all that. And I was out there for 17 pleasant years, budgeting, billing rate—Because we were the supplier of all plant services. So we had billing rates to the reactors, and the separations, and the fuel prep, and--whoever. The AEC, everything. We billed them, just as if we were like plumbing jobs. And that I enjoyed. That was probably my most productive period. And from similar work to that, I moved over—Let’s see, I was around when the Federal Building was built, but I didn't get into it. That was built in '69. I didn't get down there until 1980. Went down there a couple of years. And then they moved us out to Hanford Square where Battelle Boulevard intersection is. And I was there--I retired from that location in 1977. My wife and I retired the same week. I've been retired 26 years now at the end of this month.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was your wife working at the Hanford Site as well?</p>
<p>Bush: She worked after the kids were grown, like most stay-at-home moms do. She stayed until the daughter was of age, and then she went to work for a credit union, which was the government credit union, which was merged later on with Gesa. But that was an interesting job. They worked two hours a day, three days a week. Because it was all hand done, no mechanization. And then she got a job offer from the department in the central stores and purchasing department. She worked there eight years. In 1986, the income tax law changed a lot of things for all of us, effective in 1987. It meant that partial vesting was--IRS has to rule on all things like that. And that meant that if you had 10 years to vest pensions, once you pass the 50% point, whatever the vesting period is, then you were partially vested. And so she had 8 years out of 10. So she got 80%. But she had only worked eight years, so it wasn't a very large accumulation. Because I got my full. Of course, I'd been here 37 years I think it was, however that works out. 36.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to go back and ask you—when you were talking earlier about that period in '55, '56 when you were working out at White Bluffs town site. You mentioned radiological construction?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, that—those construction workers worked under what they called SWP, Special Work Permit, which meant radiological. They had to wear--the clothing was called SWP clothing then. Today, they call it something else. But they worked under those conditions, so therefore they were subject to different rules. Whereas, construction workers on brand new construction weren’t then—they didn't have any of that to contend with. But once a plant went operational, it became radiologically SWP. This is not an anti-union thing. It's just a demonstration of how things were in those days. They had some old buses that--the original buses in town were called Green Hornets. And they were small. They had chrome bars that went right across the middle of your back. And for 35 miles, that was not very comfortable. When they got the newer buses that you see today, like Greyhound has for instance, they relegated those to the construction workers at White Bluffs. Well, since GE guys worked up at White Bluffs, we had to ride those, too. So all the office workers in the warehouse--GE employees rode one bus. The electricians rode another bus. Pipe fitters rode another bus, even though there were only two or three of them. It was really a segmented-type thing. As close to anything radiological that I came to when I conducting one of those physical inventories—we would be out--all of the construction materials were stored outdoors on the ground. I mean, like stainless steel. 308 stainless steel was pretty high-priced stuff. But the sheets were stored outside on pallets. Well, one sheet is worth thousands and thousands of dollars. So we had to lay down on the ground and count the sheets to do the inventory. This one day—the only time I came close to any contamination, we went back and boarded the buses that evening from White Bluffs. And we saw the guys on the dock there chipping with a chisel and hammer. That meant they were chipping out flakes of contamination. So we asked what was going on. They said, well, we're next door to F and H Areas. And F Area had coughed out something they said. And so I said, well, my crew was outside today on the ground. And if they coughed out because all the--some construction workers could drive their cars. That's the only people. Plant operations people all had to ride buses. No parking lots. So anyhow, those cars were all impounded. Had tape around them. They couldn't go home. And some of the guys, they had to take off their shoes, leave them, and be issued safety shoes in lieu of it. And I said, well, we were on the ground, too. So they proceeded to take us all off the bus and surveyed us with a wand. And they only found a few flakes on our back. And so we were allowed to go home. But that's as close as I ever came to getting contaminated. It's still scary.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Obviously, Hanford, a site where security was prominent--</p>
<p>Bush: Very tight security, yeah. I was telling the young lady here that across the roadway on Stevens, as you near the 300 Area, there was a real wide barricade, probably eight lanes that you had to go through. And everybody had to stop, including buses. And the guard would get on the bus, walk down the aisle, and check every badge. And at that time, AEC had their own security airplanes. That was the purpose of the Richland Airport was for AEC security in the beginning. They had a couple Piper Cub-type airplanes. And one day we're on a bus going out to work in the morning. And all of a sudden, a plane just zoomed on by. Somebody had run the barricade. The plane goes out, lands in front of them, stops them, and that's how they got apprehended. Another incident of security, yeah, that's the subject? Many years later now, after 1963, and I'm in the transportation assignment. Airspace was off limits to all airplanes over Hanford because they had army artillery guarding it in the Cold War and all that. And a private plane had violated the space. And the AEC planes had forced it down. And once they're down, they can't ever take off. So after a week or so, they sent a lowboy trailer out there, loaded the small airplane on it, proceeded to come down what's the highway and now Stevens. And down where Stevens today, 240 and all that intersection is, there was only two lanes on the road then, not six. But at that juncture there, there was a blinking light. And they had to turn right to go to the Richland Airport. And this guy, the truck driver pulling this low-boy, he had never pulled an airplane before. And he didn't allow for that pull. Well, that blinking light clipped off a wing. And then he got time off. It was not really his fault, that pilot in the beginning. But there's a lot of—I guess full of interesting stories like that on security.</p>
<p>Bauman: Great. Did you have special security clearance to work at Hanford at the time?</p>
<p>Bush: Which?</p>
<p>Bauman: Any special security clearance?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, yeah. I had Q clearance, which there's one higher than that, that's top secret. But Q clearance meant you could go into any and all areas. And because the nature of my job, I had that my whole time I was out there. Once you have it, they would tend not to take it away from you because it's quite expensive investigation to get it in the first place. I might mention something interesting in that regard. When I first came to work in 1951, why, the PSQ is Personnel Security Questionnaire. And it's about 25 pages long. And you had to memorize it, because every five years, you had to update it. Well anyhow, I filled that out, and you give references. And I have, in the Twin Falls area, a farmer that had been a neighbor farmer in Nebraska, where I was born, to my parents. I gave him as a reference because he had known me all my life. And that would be higher points. About a year or two later--I guess probably a year later I had gone back down to Twin Falls to visit the in-laws and I went and saw this farmer, family friend. The first thing he said to me, Bobby, what in the world did you do? [LAUGHTER] The FBI had come out to his farm and piled on the questions. And I hadn't told him ahead of time I'd given a reference. So they really did very, very tight security. It's probably tighter than it was when I was in the Air Corps.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned riding a bus out to work.</p>
<p>Bush: Yeah, everybody rode it, except those few construction workers in that minor construction area. They were permitted their cars. I don't know why, but no one else drove cars on the plant. Everybody rode on the bus. The bus fare was--of course, it was subsidized. It was a plant operation, like anything else is. To make the liability insurance legal, they charged a nickel each way on the bus, which later on got changed to a dollar or something. But many of the years, we'd ride the bus 30, 35, or 40 miles to work for a nickel. The nickel was just to make it legal. From those old green buses, they came up with some--I forget what they're called. More like Greyhound buses. And then in 1963, the year I went out to the transportation, they bought a fleet of Flxibles. And that's F-L-X. There's no E in it. That's the same kind of flat-nosed bus that the bus lines used today. And they were coaches, not buses. They had storage underneath. And so we had quite a suggestion system on the plant. And you would get monetary award or mention. And somebody said, well, instead of running mail carrier cars delivering mail to all the stops on the whole plant, load the mail onto the now available storage bins on these buses. And that was a pretty good suggestion award, monetarily, to somebody. And they did that. Took it out to a central mail station out there, and then dispatched it.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned different contractors you worked for over the years--</p>
<p>Bush: Uh-huh. The story behind that for the record is that General Elec--well, DuPont built the plant. That's who my dad worked for. And GE came in '46, I believe. And they were here until the group I was in--they phased out in groups. I was the last group to go out. [COUGH] Excuse me, in 196--'66. When the GE phased out, they had a dollar a year contract. Like Henry Kaiser and rest of them did during the war, for the good of the country. But they trained an awful lot of people in the infancy field of nuclear engineering. General Electric trained all those people here and then they opened up the turnkey operations in San Jose and Japan. But anyhow, AEC was still AEC at that point. And then, their wise decision--instead of one contractor, they would have nine. And so there were--the reactors was one. Separation plant was another. Fuel preparation at 300 Area was another. The laboratories, which is today basically Battelle. Site services. The company doctors formed a foundation called Hanford Environmental Health Foundation, which is the MDs that gave the annual exams. And the computer end, it was now getting into the infancy of that, computer sciences corps, we had the first contracts on that. So all together, there were nine contractors. And the portion that I was with went to ITT. They bid, came in and bid. I helped conduct tours of the facility for the bidders. Because I knew all about it and knew the ins and outs on some of the monetary parts that their accounting people would have questions on. We'd walk through shops and all that. Well, anyhow, ITT got the site support--site services. And we had that for five years. And austerity set in in the '70s. Well, '70. They said, we got to get site services' budget down to less than $10 million. And it probably was 13 or 14, I don't remember now. So my boss and another analyst, like myself, sequestered--talk about sequester. We sequestered ourselves in the then new Federal Building for about a week. Almost 20 hours a day, whittling and whittling and working on a budget. And there was only one conclusion. We had to cut everything in half. Went through all that sweat. Went up with our president, Tom Leddy, went upstairs to an AEC finance office, presented our whole case. And the man turns around and says, well, it doesn't make any difference, Tom. Your contract's not renewed anyhow. And so now, Atlantic Richfield, an existing contractor for 200 Areas, somehow the separations plant contractor that is an oil company owned, can all of a sudden manage a site service. And so they did absorb us. But politics were still around in those days. And there were three of us analysts. One had got transferred by ITT up to the new line--newly established Distant Early Warning Line from Russia up to Alaska. So that left two of us. And we waited around. We waited around and never got an offer. And they said, no, we can do it all without you. We don't need you. How come it took so many people anyhow? On a Friday afternoon, the man that I did budgets for saw me in a restroom. He said, you got an offer yet? I said, no, no. I'm working under the table with somebody else. Well, he says, if they don't hire you, I'm going to hire you. And so he went downtown, and about 4 o'clock, I got a call from the man that told me they didn't need us. Said they'd been kind of thinking. So I went over Atlantic Richfield under those. [AUDIO CUTS OUT] And so I'm not mad, not knocking—knocking them, that's just the way things were. And then Rockwell came to town. When they laid off everybody on B-2, I'm trying to think of other--in the community, something might be of interest for the history project. Back into the '50s. Those same green buses, they had, oh, four or five of them that ran in town like a modified transit system. I don't think they had that many riders, but it did. And also, the plant buses ran what they called shuttle routes. And those buses went into Richland on probably six routes and drove around the neighborhoods and picked up workers on the three shifts. And that's why up in the ranch house district, there was the bypass you'll see between homes. The pathways that go clear through lots. Blocks were so long that they had to provide a quicker route to the bus stops. Now, those rides were free because they were shuttle buses. When you got out to the bus lot, you paid your nickel, or a pass, whatever it was.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you about accounting in terms of equipment practices. Were there a lot of changes during the time you worked at the Hanford site? Computer technology come in and change things?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, yeah. For sure. In the beginning, as I mentioned earlier, all accounting was open ledgers and hand posted. Adding machine tapes at the end of the day trying to balance them all out. And we had that until--let's see. 1970s—I think it was 1977, we got our very first taste of it. Every other desk in a group of about 20 people in cost accounting that I was in. There was cost accounting, general accounting, and so on, property management. But anyhow, we had about 20 people. Every other desk had a monitor. Well, they referred to them as a computer. But they were just the monitor. And down at the end of our building was one printer. And everything was on floppy disk. Every program was on a floppy disk. Nothing was built-in because it was just the infancy. The big computers were down in the Federal Building. And a sub-basement below the basement was specially built for that. But back to our office. Across the hall from us, we had two small computers that are--to me, they're about the size of portable sewing machines. And I can't even remember the names of them because they don't exist today but they were the computer locally. So we wanted to run our work order system, we would phone down to the guy down at the other end of the building, insert the floppy disk from work system and wait. Well, I've got somebody's inventory. You have to wait. Because there's only one place to load up down there. So finally, you would put the floppy disk in. And then, you'd run it, which meant it'd run through it and print. But then you'd have to say, now print it. And they got one printer for the whole building. And so it's pretty interesting. Whereas today, I've got a laptop that I can virtually do everything with. But we graduated from hand posted ledgers right into computers. We didn't have anything in between. All of the reports that came out, came out on--referred to as IBM runs because everything was IBM. It was on paper that's about 18 inches wide with all these little perf marks on it to feed it. And you'd get one report and it would be about that thick. It was not that much information, but it's just so much printing. It's even hard to remember after 26 years how antiquated that is compared to today. But prior to that, it wasn't even the PCs. They called everything a PC. Or, was PC compatible. Because prior to that, the only electronic data processing nickname was spaghetti wire. I'm not very conversant in it, but it was some kind of a board that had a bunch of holes in it. They put wires in it and that went to certain things. But all it did was sort things. It didn't actually calculate them.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the community of Richland. What was that like in the 1950s? I know it was a government--</p>
<p>Bush: In the town? I guess I didn't cover that area. Everything—all houses were owned by government. We rented them. My wife and I and family, we came after the days of free everything. When the coal was free--all the furnaces were coal fed. Some people would convert them later on to oil. But anyhow, they were coal burning. However you got the coal, whether it was government days or you bought the coal from the courtyard, which is down at the end of what's now Wellsian Way. There was a coal yard where that lumber yard is. And that's why those railroad tracks that are abandoned and rundown, that's where the coal cars came in. And I can add something a little bit later about coal cars and the plant. But anyhow, we rented from the government. For example, that brand new apartment that I mentioned moving onto first was a two-bedroom, full basement. Steam heated because--I'll digress a little bit. All the downtown 700 Area, including the Catholic church, central church, the hospital, all 700 Area, including those new apartments, and all downtown shopping area were steam heated by a steam plant, which was located where the back door of the post office is today in that small parking lot. And that one plant furnished steam for everything. Well, back to this new apartment. The steam pipes ran through this full basement. And our kids played—there wasn't any yards. There was just apartments. And they would play in the basement because they were quite small. But they can remember today the pop, pop, pop in those steam pipes. And the rent for that two-bedroom apartment was higher than any other house in town. It was $77 a month. And the reason it was $77 instead of $70 was because it included $7 for electricity. Nobody had electricity meters yet. Even in that new place. So when they did put in electricity meters in all homes later, which had to be—during that time, the year we were there, which is December '51 to December of '52, sometime in that period of time they put the meters in. They took off $7 off the rent because now we're going to pay—and their theory is it was $5 for a one-bedroom place, whatever it was. $7 for a two-bedroom and $10 for a three-bedroom for electricity in those days. And nobody had electric heat, of course. And then, later on they put in water meters. And again, they had to come into your home, invade your home, and put in something. So it was strictly government prior to—well, another—and when I lived in the rental, if something went wrong with the plumbing, they would send out a plumber, but you paid for it, though. But later on when I went to the tall two-story, three-bedroom duplex houses, or called A houses, that was our first house after that apartment. And as I remember, I think the rent was--they had rent districts with low, medium, and high in the more desirable parts of town. And we were on Hop Street across from uptown district where Hunt Street is and Jefferson Park. And I think our rent for that was like $47 because it was not a brand new apartment. And later on, we—I was on the housing list. And you applied and months or years later, you'd rotate up to move into a nicer place or a different location. But in the meantime, up came an F house, which is a two-story single family, kind of a Cape Cod-looking type of house. And that came up on the housing list. However, the caveat was that you had to cash out the present owner who had made some improvements. He had converted the coal to oil, they put in a clothesline, which nobody had clotheslines, and something else. So cashed him out for—I believe it was $750. And if I do that, I could have it, so I did. We lived in that place for 19 years. Our daughter grew up there and got married out of that home. And that's the only home she ever knew. [LAUGHTER] And we were there until 1977 when the real estate market in Richland was—this is community wide. The housing prices were moving 18% a year, about 1.5% a month. And I thought well, I don't need to be setting still. I mean, if I cash out here, and went on. So we sold that home. I listed it. Calder, my father, was very ill. We were going to Spokane. I listed it. A man came by, looked it out. What were you asking? I said, oh, about 17. He shook his head. And I said, too high? He says, no, 27,000. [LAUGHTER] Just to show you how bad things were. And so it sold right away. What are you going to do now? And I said, well. Would you want to try a mobile home? I know a jewel. And in those days, real estate men did not sell mobile homes. But this couple had bought their first house from him, or something. And it was somebody retiring out of postal, wanted to go back to Montana. Never smoked in it, never had any pets in it, no kids. It was the Cadillac of mobile homes. We were there two years, but that was long enough. Then we moved into the house that I'm still in. I'm widowed now for five years. The house we're in now, we've lived in that longer than in any other place. [LAUGHTER] But the community just has changed so drastically. South Richland. People say today they live in South Richland. We lived in South Richland, which was south of the downtown shopping district to the Yakima Bridge. That was South Richland. What is now South Richland out there was Kennewick Highlands. So it depends on who you're talking to today.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Do you remember any special community events, parades, any of those sorts of things during the '50s and '60s?</p>
<p>Bush: Community events?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bush: Yep. Back in GE days, they had Atomic Frontier Days. And they were a big thing. Had beauty queens in it, rode in the float, and all that. Down at the—[COUGH] excuse me. For Atomic Frontier Days down at the lower end of Lee Boulevard, which is still the same shape today. They set up booths all on there. And it was a really big event. Before we had the hydro races even. People look back fondly on that. Talking about community, again, my mother, I said, worked for the post office, which—it stood on the corner of Knight Street, where it touches George Washington Way. There's some kind of a lawyer office building there today. And the old post office is the Knights of Columbus building on the bypass highway. But she would have to take the mail and go over to where the Red Lion Motel is today, at the Desert Inn, a frame building, winged out basically the same. And that was referred to as the transient quarters. And that was for upper management that were going through and it wasn't really a public motel, per se. But she would have mail for these big wigs over there. So she would have to go over there and have a badge to even go in the front door of that Desert Inn. Talking about badges, something humorous on that. We didn't wear things around our neck in the beginning because it was like a little pocket-sized bill fold. It was a little black bill that had your pass, your badge in it. And at every building you went into, you just pulled it out, flashed it to the guard. It usually was a lady security employee. There were guards in the building, but the person on the desk was a security clerk. But you'd just automatically—you’d open it like that and flag and put it back in your pocket. Every building you went into. Downtown, 700 Area, that first building I've referred to. One day I went into a restaurant and I just did that automatically [LAUGHTER] because it's just so automatic. Then they graduated to having the thing around your neck. And then also, if you worked in the outer areas, you had to wear a radiation badge in addition to your security badge. There was two types and one of them was a flat. And I don't know the difference. One's for beta and one's for alpha. I don't know. And one of them was a pencil shaped. And that's what they called it. And the other one was a flat badge, which was carried in something around your neck. And in all the areas I worked, and the places I described laying on the ground that happened and all that, my RAMs, they call it, never accumulated in my working life to be a danger. I had some, of course. Everybody does in the background. But I never accumulated to a danger point. There were people, some smart aleck people that would take their badge and hold it over a source at work so they could get some time off. Because if you got--what was the phrase? Anyhow, if they got contaminated, they put them on a beefsteak diet. And they stayed home. And they come every day and took a urine sample and all that stuff. But they had a life of riley. So that was nice. But the guys got canned that did that. But they would purposely expose their pencil so they could stay home.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did all employees have those, either the pencil or--</p>
<p>Bush: Only those that worked in reactor and separations areas, yeah. I mentioned these departments. Actually, the first department is Fuel Preparations Department, FPD. The present—the 300 Area--most of the buildings have now been torn down that you don't even see them there. But the north half roughly was fuels preparation department headed for the reactors. They took uranium and encapsulated it in cans, like can of peas in just so many words. And the south half of that 300 Area was a laboratory area, the predecessor of Battelle. So the fuel was prepared there. And it was machined and canned and sent as nickname slugs to the reactors. Then, the reactors loaded into all those little tubes. And then from the reactors, they come out the backside into those cooling pods and all that. And transported in casks to the 200 Areas, which are the separated area, separations. And the reactor area on the face side was not that dangerous. The 200 Areas only work on what they called the canyons, PUREX and REDOX, and those kind of buildings. But those cells were very, very hot. But you had to be measured no matter where you were. One of our site services was a decontamination laundry, called the laundry. And all clothing--I mentioned to you before SWP. Well, SWP, radiologic exposure employees wore whites. Carpenters and truck drivers and all that that didn't work around reactors wore blues. And so they were sorted. And we had different billing rates for that laundry because the blues only had to be laundered and dried. Whereas the others had to be laundered, dried, and decontaminated, checked in separate washing machines. And then workers wore—in the beginning, wore World War II-style gas masks for our air supply before they invented a moon-type suit. [LAUGHTER] But they wore gas masks. And the mask would come back to this mask station, which was part of the laundry. And they took the masks, and they'd take away the cartridge. They'd put the mask in dishwasher machines, in racks. That's how they would wash them. And then they would get them a new filter and package them up. Sanitize them and package them up like medical supplies would be in. I can't think of any other unusual operation out there like that.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to change gears just a little bit. President Kennedy visited the site in 1963.</p>
<p>Bush: Yep, 1963.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was wondering--</p>
<p>Bush: When they did that, they let all the schools out. And for the first time, non-workers were allowed to go in cars out there. It was a grand traffic jam, but it was quite a deal. And he landed his Air Force plane up at Moses Lake—at Larson airbase at Ephrata, whichever you want to call it. And then helicoptered. And of course, like it is today, there were three or four helicopters. And you don't know which one he's on and all that bit. And here, everyone is gathered out the N Reactor area, which is a dual-purpose reactor. They captured the heat from the reactor, put it through a pipe through a fence to the predecessor to Energy Northwest, which was called Whoops. This was a big deal, a dual-purpose reactor. And N stood for new reactor, really. Anyhow, he comes in and they got a low-boy trailer. They fixed up down in the shops where I worked—my office was. And then built a podium just precisely for the President with him emblem and the whole bit. So I was privy to get to see some things like that. But anyhow, that was the stage. And it was a long low-boy, so it accommodated all the senators and all the local—Sam Volpentest, the guy credited with HAMMER, those type of people. Glen Lee from the Tri-City Herald, you name it. So the helicopter comes in, blows dust over everybody. But anyhow, my wife and kids and all schools were brought out there. And I don't know how many thousand people were out there in the desert. And you could see President Kennedy. He got up on the stage. You get close enough, you could get pictures. Then, that same year in November, he got assassinated. So that was a busy year.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember any other special events with dignitaries like that? Or other--</p>
<p>Bush: Well, I could go way back to World War II. I wasn't here, but I have a family connection on it. All over United States, they had war bond drives for various reasons to help. Build a ship, build an airplane. The one that happened here is not the only one. But they took so much money out of all the paycheck of Hanford workers, which included my dad as a carpenter. And the money they collected bought the B-17 Bomber, which was named Day's Pay. And that bomber—they had a bomber out here, a B-17, so that people could see it, but it wasn't the same one. On the Richland High School wall there's a mural. And that's a rendition by a famous artist of Day's Pay in formation. And so I can say that my parents contributed to that. And that's the story behind that one bomber. Every worker out there, construction or operations, they donated a day's pay.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder, what was the most challenging part of your job working at the Hanford site?</p>
<p>Bush: As an accounting person, my most challenging part was learning government-ese. [LAUGHTER] How to deal. And in that vein, that took a long time. But once you learn it, there is a way in the US government, period. As I'm sure there is in certain corporations. Later on, when I mentioned that I went down to the federal building for my--finally got located in that building, there was another fellow and I were old timers in accounting. And that year, they had five college grads, accounting grads come in. They hired five at one time. And they ran them by Marv and I for exposure. This is how things are done. This is how the contacts are. And our basic job was to squire these young fellows around and introduce them to certain counterparts and now DOE. Now, this is how you make appointments with them. This is what you do. This is what you never do. And likewise, with senior management. And it paid off because of those five, all four of them became managers or supervisors, and one of them became my manager within two years. Today, that same man is the comptroller at Savannah River Plant. [LAUGHTER] And so I like to feel that I contributed to them being—partially to them being successful. And so that's a reward. But probably the most difficult thing coming from a private—I worked for Colorado Mill and Elevator, which means I worked at a flour mill district office as a bookkeeper. And that's a small town deal in Twin Falls. To come to work for the government where some of your family despises you because you work for the government, but you had to fight that as well as learn how the government operates.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned earlier, you were talking about coal being used for heat in Richland. You also said you wanted to talk about coal fires going up at the site.</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, what?</p>
<p>Bauman: Coal fires?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, yeah. Interestingly, the midway power station, substation at midway, is one of the reasons they built Hanford where they did because the Grand Coulee Dam had just been completed and an electricity producer—a major producer. And they put the midway substation down there. That basically was built to furnish huge amounts of power to Hanford, for the reactors, everything. Which in total—because I processed vouchers, I know it was 32 megs. Which today doesn't sound like much, but the whole plant bill was 32 megs when everything was operating. But if the power were interrupted, they had to have a backup. So every area had a huge diesel-powered--like water pumps, where they could pump the water from the river instead of by electrically. They had to be able to pump it because it was critical. Because all the water for the whole plant was taken in at intake water plants near the reactors along the river. The 200 Area water is piped to them in a huge line as raw water until it gets to their place. The backup is these coal-fired steam plants, is what I was trying to say. It got about 30-some cars of coal a day rolled through Richland past the cemetery. In the beginning, the railroad came down from the north, from Vantage area down along the Columbia River. There's a railroad bridge across the river, Beverly I think it is. And it came down to below the 100-B Reactor area. That's where the line ended. And then a plant had its own railway incidentally. It had a 285 mile-long rail line, high line and low line. Then, they built--in 1950, the year before I came, they built the line that we see today that comes from Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car rebuilding outfit is now, there is a roundhouse that it's rectangular in shape. But some 30 cars of coal a day came in here to supply because those plants were—they actually operated the steam plants. They didn't start them up from cold. They just ran constantly.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder if you could provide sort of an overall assessment of how Hanford was as a place to work. What was it like as a place to work?</p>
<p>Bush: It was a great place for me. I came out of an area that was the agriculturally-oriented. And the Korean War started. Wages were frozen, you weren't going to go anywhere. I came up here and I got a new start, like pioneers did. I visualized that's what farming pioneers did the same thing. And it opened up a whole field for me, a big corporate field. And it's just been a great place to work. And it was not dangerous to me. I'm not afraid to drink the water here. I'm asked by a nephew in Hermiston constantly, how do you drink the water? And I said, well, it comes out of the river. How can it come out of the river and that plume’s out there? There's so many false stories around here. But working at Hanford, I think, by and large, almost all employees would tell you the same thing. It was a great place to work. The pay was decent. Maybe you didn't get rich, but it was decent. It's in a nice area to live in. When we came back in the '50s, or in the '40s, and before that even of course, shopping was pretty much nonexistent. They went to Yakima, or Spokane, or Walla Walla. That I didn’t—we didn't experience that too much by 1951 because by that time, the Uptown shopping district was built. And there was a men's store. And there was four women's stores. Because GE was the prime contractor, there was an appliance dealer that handled GE-Hotpoint appliances. We got employee discounts when we worked for GE. We also got 10% gasoline discount when we worked for Atlantic Richfield Hanford. But we just grew with the times. And it's just such an entirely different area now than it was. Just the world is different, too.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about? Is there anything you would like to talk about that we haven't talked about yet?</p>
<p>Bush: Now really, work-wise at Hanford, I think I’ve pretty well-covered it. I'll repeat myself. My first 15 years was construction engineering accounting, which is an entirely different field than operations accounting. Operations accounting concerns itself with the reactors and separations and the site services that support them. But I learned a lot by working at Hanford. My family, three adult children live here, are retired here. My oldest son went on Medicare this year. [LAUGHTER] And that kind of puts you in your place quickly. But it's been a good enough place that they stayed in the area. And of the six granddaughters, grandchildren, four of them are in the area. And that's kind of characteristic with a lot of the Tri-City families. They stay or come back.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, Bob, I'd like to thank you very much for coming and talking to us today. I really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Bush: It's been my pleasure.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:02:19
Bit Rate/Frequency
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256kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
300 Area
B Reactor
700 Area
N Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1951-1977
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1951-1977
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Ed Peddicord
Tom Leddy
Glen Lee
Original Format
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mov
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Bush
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Bush moved to the Tri-Cities in 1951 to work on the Hanford Site.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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07-17-2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mov
Date Modified
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2017-13-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
1955
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
B Reactor
Battelle
Cat
Cold War
Dam
Desert
DuPont
Energy Northwest
F Area
FBI
General Electric
H Area
HAMMER
Hanford
Henry Kaiser
Hunting
Kennedy
Kennewick
N Reactor
Park
PUREX
River
Savannah River
School
Street
supplies
War
Westinghouse
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6e943532e002ba8d078e11a4e7f75958.mp4
ec42f85d52e2ce276b6305ce36a4e155
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
O' Reagan, Douglas
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Carson, David
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. To start us off, will you please pronounce and spell your name for us?</p>
<p>David Carson: Hi. My name is David Carson, D-A-V-I-D, C-A-R-S-O-N.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview here on April 29<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus on Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be speaking with Mr. Carson about his experiences working on the Hanford Site and living in the Tri-Cities community. Well, thanks for being here. Could you tell us first just a little bit about your life leading up to either moving into the Tri-Cities or starting working at Hanford?</p>
<p>Carson: I was born here in Richland at Kadlec in May of 1958. Grew up here, went through all the Richland schools—Spalding and Carmichael, and—I can still call it Col High because I went there then. Went off to college, met my wife. We were biology majors, and about the time that we graduated and were looking for jobs, Battelle, who at the time had a huge biology program, they lost most all their contracts. So that just evaporated. My wife managed to get on with Battelle a couple months after we were married. But it took me over six months before I finally got a break and got hired on at N Reactor as an operator. My--</p>
<p>O’Reagan: And that would have been ’81?</p>
<p>Carson: That was in March of 1981. My parents had moved here in the spring of 1951 with my brother and sister. I was a 16-year mistake, so they’re a lot older. But they moved here in ’51. They lived in the trailer camp up north. My brother and sister went to Ball Elementary, for example. In ’53 they were able to buy a ranch house on Cedar Street, and that’s where I grew up. My dad was a fireman. Eventually became a lieutenant and then a captain. My mom was a secretary and then executive secretary. She was one of the very first certified professional secretaries onsite, and did a great deal to spread that program and bring skills and professionalism throughout all of her parts of the work. For years, she worked here—for over 35 years, a couple years longer than my dad, actually. So I’m about as Richland-born-and-bred and Hanford-centered as you could hope to ask for. When I got hired on at N Reactor, I started—as so many people in operations did—back in the fuels department. We called it back, because it was in the back part of the building. It was both the front and the back of the process. So back there, we made up the charges of reactor fuel for charging into the reactor. After that went in, the old fuel was discharged. We also took care of that out in the storage basin. So that was—I started in late March ’81, I was in fuels for six months. I always knew that I wanted to move up into the control room. So after six months, in September of ’81, I moved up front to reactor operations, not fuels operations. Started out as—everyone was referred to sort of shorthand as paygrade. A plain reactor operator was a Grade 18. So I was a Grade 18. That’s where you begin learning the basics of the job. You learn how to take building patrol and what all the readings mean and how to take them correctly. Because you have to go around the whole building twice a shift and check on running equipment, take readings, make sure things aren’t breaking or whatever. Then you start learning more of the jobs, from housekeeping—there were some specialized parts of that. Doing laundry—there was specialized parts to that, because it was—you were dealing with radioactive clothing, so contamination control, you learn that a lot. All the different functions during charge/discharge. This was the time, in the early part of the Reagan Administration when they changed over to once again producing weapons-grade plutonium. It was called the 6% program. Weapons-grade plutonium is judged on how much plutonium-240 has grown into it. If you have more than 6%--PU-240 is a big neutron absorber, so it does not create a nuclear explosive as well. It poisons reactions. So the less of that you have, the less you have to work to separate it out and get just the PU-239 that you want. So changing to the 6% program meant that they were doing charge/discharges a little more than twice as often. Plus, a lot of the maintenance had been let go. For many years they’d been in power only, since the end of the Nixon Administration. And that was something of a coup, to let in startup just to produce electricity through the Hanford Generating Project number 1 that was run by Washington Public Power Supply System. We sent our steam to them over across the fence. We didn’t have anything to do with that, except send steam, get back water. So there was a lot of upgrades going on throughout the whole reactor plant. The reactor plant—we called it the power side, where the steam that we made as we cooled off the primary loop was used to drive turbines that drove the primary pumps that circulated the water. A lot of that equipment was also repaired, upgraded. It took a while to really get up on plane and start operating smoothly again. A lot of operators came in right around within a year or so of the time I did, and four or five reactor-operator certification classes’ worth. They would take about 15 people at a time, and you would run through about a year-long program to learn everything from fundamentals, which was basic math, basic chemistry, basic nuclear science, up through the specifics of the systems in the reactor and how they interacted, how you operated them safely, what you didn’t want to do, what you did do, the reasons behind all that. It got pretty complex. You had to take three tests to become certified. First, after the first couple sessions of classroom training, they would pull us off our shifts. We worked a four-shift rotating shift at the time. Pulled us off our shifts, put us on day shift in the classroom for chunks of time. We’d go back when there were outages, because they needed bodies. When you finished your first couple of sessions of classroom training, there was the written exam, which is called the eight-hour. And it really is. It was almost 50 pages. I finished it in about six-and-a-half hours. I used up an entire pen. Just as I was finishing writing the essay on the last page, the pen died. And I looked at it—it was clear, and there was no ink left. So after you passed your eight-hour, you got a bump. You were then called a Grade 21, and a lot more of your training was real-time in the control room. You would sit on consoles with the other operators, and they would help guide you. You’d get some hands-on time. You’d learn more about that part of the job. After several months, and some more classroom training, you had an examination called the demo, where one of the instructors would come over and they would walk you around the control room and just start asking questions. Your job was to answer the questions, point at stuff, look things up in books—prove that you knew where it all was, what it all meant, what it all did. When you passed your demo, then you went into the final, more intensive part of classroom training to get ready for your oral board. Pass the eight-hour, pass the demo, train some more, then you sat an oral board, in which there were people from operations, engineering, nuclear safety, training, and sometimes somebody else would sit in. I don’t know why, but they did. So once you passed your oral board, you were considered certified—a Grade 23. But you still didn’t get turned loose yet. You still had to have guided time in the control room. You had to do a certain number of evolutions. You had to do so many startups, so many shutdowns, be in on so many scrams, do a little of this and a little of that, until your shift manager, after watching you and talking to the other operators, figured you were ready. So then, one day they say, okay, you’re free and clear. And your certificate went up on the wall with your name on it saying that you were a certified reactor operator, and you got thrown in. And then you really started to learn the job. Because all this stuff was suddenly no longer even partially theory. It was all real.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How many reactor operators were there at a time, roughly, who were licensed?</p>
<p>Carson: It went up and down. Each shift was required to have at least four in the control room when you were operating. Typically, during this time in the ‘80s, every shift had seven or eight certified operators, and as many as a dozen Grade 18s—the ones who didn’t want to get into the certification program, who did other stuff around the plant. Because there was always stuff to do, if nothing else—housekeeping, stocking the laundry, and sweeping the floors. We had a schedule that came up every month and you rotated through different jobs in the control room. At the N control room, there was three major parts. There was a nuclear console, where you actually ran the reactor itself. We manually controlled the rod positions and manually monitored the power level and the flux where the neutron cloud was going up or down in the reactor. You wanted to keep that still and stable. You didn’t want it to cycle, because that can get—create stresses, if one part of the reactor’s really hot while this one back here is cold, it stresses—increases the fatigue and the chances for the failure of something. So you wanted to keep it nice and steady. We had instrumentation. We had—the only computer display we had was of temperatures. That was probably the main one, and the charts that showed how the neutron flux was changing. You wanted to keep all the lines straight. There was two of you, and you rotated on the nuke console every two hours—two hours on, two hours off. You’d get breaks and stuff while you were off. The double-A console controlled all of the primary loop and its interface with the secondary loop. That’s where you controlled the drive turbine speeds that drove the primary pumps to circulate the coolant. That’s where you controlled the primary loop pressure, the level of it, the emergency backup stuff—you were responsible for that. So you had this whole corner of the control room and panels that were your responsibility. The third part controlled the secondary loop—that’s the side—the primary loop went into the tubes of heat exchangers and it boiled the water on the shell of the heat exchanger—the steam generators. So that steam went up into the steam header. A lot of it went over to WPPSS. Some of it went down to drive our turbines. We also had a turbine generator of our own in the boiler building that was our onsite power source. You took care of the secondary loop there—its level, its pressure, the way it was. There was also a lot of other things that that operator did—rupture monitoring was at that panel, because N Reactor did not have a containment; it had a confinement. It was designed in 1958, went critical in ’63. They didn’t build—I guess they couldn’t at the time yet—build a full containment to keep everything in. It was designed that if there was a tube rupture and you had a big burst of superheated steam, that would vent. So we had to keep our primary loop really, really clean. And that’s what the rupture monitor was. If you saw signs that the fuel element in one of the 1,003 process tubes was beginning to release uranium into the water, you’d shut down and push that tube right away. There was also a system specifically for cooling the graphite. N Reactor, like the other old Hanford reactors, was called graphite-moderated. It used very pure graphite in a big block with complex passages through it. The neutrons, when they would leave the fissioned uranium atom, would go out and bounce around in that graphite before they found their way back into fuel, slowed way down, so that they could cause another fission. Modern power reactors use the water, the coolant, as a moderator. We used the solid graphite. We had a system to cool that specifically. So that operator took care of that. Also, the gas system, we circulated helium through the core when we’re operating, because at full power, 4,000 megawatts thermal, the temperature in the center of the core was 600, 700, 800 degrees in places, Fahrenheit. Pure graphite—you don’t want any air or water, anything that’s going to react with it at those temperatures. So we used the helium—you had to control that, too. And there’s other miscellaneous stuff, but you had to learn all of this, and you learned all of the classroom stuff, but just like anything, you really learned by doing, where it becomes second nature. The wonderful part about working it in was my shift—I was a little unusual in that I was assigned to one shift at the beginning, C shift, and I stayed on that shift my whole nine years there. Other people would move around, sometimes involuntarily. But I managed to stay on C shift all the time. It’s such a wonder and a joy when you can become that tight of a team to where you knew exactly how any individual’s going to react in a given situation. You don’t even need full words to communicate. We would have entire conversations in acronyms and shorthand. And we—stuff happened and we would ride it out and just—scary as heck, but—when it was over, you knew that the team had just really done its work like it’s supposed to. So that was always—that was a good feeling.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Could you give us an example of one of these acronym exchanges?</p>
<p>Carson: Oh. Oh, it’s— What’s the HPIP delta P? 18. Okay, we need that up to 50. So—I’ve lost a lot of that.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Sure.</p>
<p>Carson: But as in any installation, every piece has a name. It has typically an official name that meets a standard of naming from an engineering organization, it has the name that it’s normally referred to as, and it has an acronym. Sometimes it might have an even shorter shorthand name that your crew comes up with that you all know what it is, but you also know all the others as well. In a situation where something has begun to get out of line, out of normal--it’s not a crisis, but it’s something that you have to pay attention to and deal with right away—you need to transfer information as quickly and as clearly as possible. And that was how that was done, with shorthand acronyms that everyone knew exactly what you were saying; they could anticipate what you were about to say. So you could get other people to take particular actions absolutely as quickly as possible, and they could get you, by what they said back, to do your actions properly.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Could you walk us through a one specific scram or other sort of stressful event?</p>
<p>Carson: I was there in the control room one night when—I believe it was thunderstorms hit a main distribution power line—a 230-kilovolt lines coming from the dams—that happened to be online as our offsite power. Lightning hit one of those transmission lines and caused a power surge that tripped open the breakers at the substation. Offsite power was called A bus. Onsite power was B bus. You needed them active and separated up from 13.8-kilovolt where it came into the reactor, all the way down to 12-volt DC instrument power. You couldn’t have any connection between those two, because that could conceivably cause a fault that would stop the reactor from scramming if it needed to. So they powered everything, but some things were powered more by one bus or one by another. This is one of the main things that we trained for, was a power loss. Of course, if you lose one of your electrical buses, that’s one of the automatic reactor scram trips—there was 23 of them. So the reactor scrammed, and everything’s going along about like you’d expect for a power loss from one bus. Everything’s already prepared and set up to take the proper actions automatically, so you have to monitor those and adjust as necessary. Then all of a sudden, there was some kind of electrical fault in our B bus, our onsite power, which was still online. It tripped off. It was B bus—I believe I’m saying this right—B bus powered the lights in the control room. So you knew if those lights went on, you’d lost B bus as well. Now, if you lost both buses at the same time, that was an automatic trip onto emergency cooling, which for N Reactor was very large, high-pressured diesel pumps would pump water. Valves would open at the inlet and outlet of the reactor and it would change to a once-through. We had a series of water tanks with demin[eralized] water, filtered water and sanitary water. And then through some mechanisms, it would trip all the way to river water. If it was known that if you ever tripped over onto emergency cooling, the thermal shock—because the water was kept hot, but it wasn’t as hot as the reactor—the thermal shock could basically destroy the reactor. And that would be over. Nothing you could do at that point as far as keeping the reactor as an operating reactor in the future. So luckily, A bus had actually come back online just seconds before B bus went off. Then B bus came back, so the lights came back on, and then we lost A bus again. Because the whole BPA network was still having ripples and things. And then it came back up and then we lost B bus again. So when each of these things is happening, there’s stuff you have to do, depending on what it was. We’re running back and forth, trying to do that, and it got really tense. But all that training, you stopped really thinking—just all the training in your brainstem took over and you started doing what you needed to do and communicating in just those short, almost little digital blips of information so that everyone knew what you were doing, and you knew what they were doing and you knew what everybody had to do and that they were doing it. So things got pretty terse in the control room right there. As the buses kept coming up and down, it would reset off hundreds of enunciators and we didn’t have time to try and figure out what the overall cause was; we were just still fighting to keep the reactor from tripping on to emergency cooling. So eventually, we got both buses back and stable and we could continue with our—then it became just a regular post-scram shutdown. The cool-down of the reactor, changing things to work slightly different ways here and there throughout the plant. Then you sit back and giggle and get the shakes a little bit. Everybody talked real loud and real fast for a while, you know? [LAUGHTER] So—just some stressful things like that. Any unexpected scram made you a little tense, a little puckery. Because you didn’t know what happened. We had big CRT monitors mounted up by the nuclear and the double-A console that were tied into an electronic alarm system that they would record all of the enunciators. There were—I think I heard the number once—it was 1,400 different enunciators in the control room. When one of those went off, it sent a signal to this alarm system that put the ID of them in a buffer memory. They would display up in the CRTs. Well, when you scram, you got 400 enunciators within two or three seconds. So all you could see on the screen was the first eight or so. So you didn’t know what was going on. You just had to deal with what you were supposed to do and trust that no further catastrophe was going to happen, and just be ready for it if it did. When the reactor was running smoothly, we called it at equilibrium, when we had not changed power by more than 5% in 72 hours. That was sometimes hard to keep your focus, because all the lines are running straight on the charts, and it’s graveyard, nobody wants to talk, and you’ve all told all your stories a dozen times, and nothing much to say. So you’re sitting, waiting, watching. So like the quote about war, hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. Not as terror-filled as they might be, because we were trained and experienced in most stuff. Sometimes—there was always the possibility that sometimes something could happen that was really untoward, really out of the way, that could be really dangerous, really a disaster.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How much of working in the control room was sort of judgment or sort of work of art as opposed to a sort of objective do-the-next-thing?</p>
<p>Carson: Actually quite a bit of it. One of the things that you developed as you gained experience as an operator—we called it getting stick time. When you started getting enough hours on a console and really starting to figure out how everything actually did work, you developed a feel, just from watching how all the different parts of the console you were on interacted. You got a feel if something was maybe not right, if something started looking a little jittery or a little bit out of its normal range that you wanted. Then you’d have to figure out, what little tweak can I make? Because everything was running in automatic, but you could always make small corrections. What little tweak could I make, given what I know about that that’s going on, that would make it better? And you developed what I always called a touch. Because you didn’t just go up and start twisting stuff. You really—with some instruments, some controllers—some control loops more than others—you didn’t want to put any very large change into it at all, because it was so sensitive. In the action that that controller would take, the input back to, say, the primary loop from changing the speed of one of the makeup injection pumps could just suddenly—if you did too much by accident, you could scram the reactor. Or you could cause it to lose pressure, which would scram the reactor another way. So getting to really develop that unconscious feel, similar to the way that when you’re driving and you pull into a parking lot or a real narrow street, you can actually feel with your body where the corners of your fenders are. It’s developing that kind of feel for a huge complex machine that was really what brought you into being a really good, competent operator. Some folks had it on some systems more than others. The older operators who’d been at it forever, it was just completely unconscious with them. That was just the way they did things was smooth and easy, and you don’t just jump in and start fiddling with stuff. You always think it through before you touch anything. And then when you touch it, you touch it very gently and make the changes as slow and small as you can to get the result that you want.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So you worked there through the closing of N Reactor, is that right?</p>
<p>Carson: Yes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How much did that change over the course, before you got to the closing? Was it—job change a lot over that time?</p>
<p>Carson: While we were still operating—regular operation—it didn’t change that much. Some new things were put in, but overall they didn’t really affect us much. You had to deal with failures. For example, when the reactor was operating, the water circulated through five steam generator cells. We had six, so one was always out of service for maintenance or repairs or whatever, and you operated with five. Well, one of the cells was undergoing a total refit—a total reconditioning. And then another one of the cells, the primary pump developed some problems that were going to require a rebuild. So the decision was made to go ahead and operate at a reduced power level with only four cells online. That took a lot of adjustments. They had to come up with temporary limits that we had to learn and follow. Some of the procedures changed slightly for that temporary period to take into account the fact that you had a lower capacity and a lower rate of heat removal. So just dealing with a change like that, and then that begins to feel normal. And then they bring another cell back online. So you’re back to the way it was that used to be normal, but you have to kind of reset yourself to working that way. Limits were really the main thing we paid attention to as we were operating. All of the nuclear industry—and N Reactor, certainly, they really drilled this into us—it operates in defense of depth. You don’t ever have just a single barrier to something causing an accident. I called it a box-in-a-box-in-a-box-in-a-box-in-a-box. There’s the actual strength of the machine, at what pressures or temperatures will it break because the materials just physically can’t take it. So that’s your outermost limit that you never, ever, ever got close to. Inside of that was your technical specifications that protected this outer box. Inside the technical specifications were the process standards that protected the technical specification limits. Inside the process standards were your operating limits that protect—you never wanted to break a process standard, because you’d have to have an investigation and figure out why that happened and everything. And sometimes there were even special limits inside the operating limits that were even more restrictive. So those limits changed over time, but that was just part of the job. You had to get used to the new ways things were, and just live with it, because that’s the way it was. They taught us why the change was made, and what it meant, and that this was the new limits here and here and here. That’s the kind of stuff we went through during our continuous training. After you’re certified, the training cycle had all the operators, shift by shift, when they would roll around on dayshift, you would have training days. And every two years, you went through the entire certification curriculum again, from fundamentals through reactor operations, through system interactions—all of it, every two years. We had to take a recertification exam every quarter. So every three months you had a job jeopardy examination to keep on top of stuff. So that’s how all that was communicated to us and incorporated into the way we worked and the way things were operated and handled. As we got past the Chernobyl accident, some people knew right away, that was the death knell for N. A lot of us were still optimistic that the differences were so clear and plain and could be explained, and we could continue. They had plans for upgrading some of our equipment to allow the reactor to run for another 20 years, they said. [SIGH] Didn’t turn out that way. So much political fire came down on all of the DoE complex, but Hanford especially. I don’t know if you remember, at the time, we had a senator who was 100% anti-Hanford. I spoke at the time when South Carolina had three senators and we had one. Because he worked as hard as he could to send all the work, all the waste, all the everything to Savannah River, so that it wouldn’t be at Hanford. I’m just griping now, but—it ended up, it was January 7<sup>th</sup>, 1997 at 07:31 that the reactor was shut down for the last time. It was going to be for an upgrade. They were going to put in a control room habitability system that did actually get put in, and it worked. It was for a time if there was ever a large release from the reactor, we could have sealed up the control room and lived on recirculated air and supplies for up to two weeks. They put that in. There was another big upgrade. Because of the hydrogen bubble that developed inside the reactor at Three Mile Island from water being split by high temperatures and the presence of metal into hydrogen and oxygen. And the hydrogen formed a big bubble that could have—in very, very small circumstances—could have ignited or exploded. They were worried about hydrogen inside the reactor and power buildings at N. So they were putting in a hydrogen mitigation system that would have been able to take all of the hydrogen evolved from the entire quantity of water in the primary loop. If it all split and turned into hydrogen and oxygen, this system could have recombined the hydrogen and taken away the explosive potential. So we all hoped that, yeah, we were going to get these upgrades and we’d be able to start up again and keep going for a while longer. But we never did. So the people who could leave right away did. But the end of ’97, we’d lost a lot of the real sharp engineers and some of the top people in operations. And then as the years went on, and became more and more clear that there was no future for the reactor, more and more people drifted away. I eventually, in late ’89, I took a temporary upgrade to write layup procedures for the reactor. At the time, they were going to keep it in—well, it went through a whole series. It was going to be on cold standby, where the fuel would still be in the reactor; we would still recirculate the loop, but we wouldn’t operate. We would just maintain it ready to operate if we needed it. Then it was going to turn to dry standby, where the reactor would be defueled and we would circulate dry pure air through all of the piping throughout the plant to keep the corrosion away so that if we needed to restart, we could refuel and restart. So that was one of the big procedures that I took the upgrade to write, was the whole valve lineup to establish that flow path from the 24-inch primary and secondary loop main valves, all the way down to the ¼ inch instrument root valves. I had to find every single one and lay out how they were going to be opened, in what sequence. I also wrote a bunch of other procedures. That’s where I first started learning how to write procedures. But at the end of the six months, they did not want to keep me on there permanent, doing that. And I sure didn’t want to go back to operations, which was by that time two years after the reactor had been shut down, almost three. I could just feel the IQ dribble out my ears, because you can only sweep the same floor so many times. Once the reactor was defueled, there wasn’t a whole lot of anything to do.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: How many people were still on doing that kind of work?</p>
<p>Carson: Probably about half the number that we’d had at the peak days. Because you didn’t need as many operators to do what we were doing. So people were going to various places. A lot of people went from there over to the K Basins, to deal with the stored fuel. Some of them are still there, dealing, now, just with the sludge. It just—there was no sense in trying to stay there where I was comfortable. So that’s when I got a job with Tank Farms, writing procedures. So I did that for four years.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was that something that you actively thought—you enjoyed the procedure writing, or was that just another--?</p>
<p>Carson: Actually, yes. I’ve always loved writing. For a long time, I desperately wanted to be a writer, a fiction writer or a science writer. And I just never was able to do it. I got a small number of rejection letters from various magazines. Once I started writing for a living, doing procedures, it just knocked all hope of ever writing fiction right out of me. But I enjoyed the process; I’ve always enjoyed figuring stuff out. When I came to Tank Farms, the procedures were horrible. There are standards and—even at that time, it was just coming out of DoE order on how the qualities of procedure has to have—the requirements that it has to meet, in terms of how it’s written, how the data is presented, how things are phrased. So when I came into Tank Farm Procedures, once I got my feet on the ground, I kind of pushed, and we did a complete overhaul of the entire Tank Farms Procedures system. Getting all of the several hundred—I think 740 procedures—getting them all rewritten to current standards. I developed, for the first time at Tank Farms, a standard compliant alarm response procedure. There’s procedures for everything, including when—I talked about all the enunciators in the control room. We had big, thick books of enunciator response guides that told you what tripped it, when it would reset, what it meant, and what you had to do. When 500 go off at once, you’re just doing your trained-in post-scram actions that you know what to do. You don’t look at each individual one. At Tank Farms, they had alarm response procedures, but for a whole facility, the book might be this thick, because anything that happened, the only response was notify management. It was quite a culture shock to go down to Tank Farms, because at N, you needed a college degree of some kind just to get in the door. It was a really fast crowd. Really smart. Even the guys that stayed back in fuels, most of them were really sharp. So we operated at a really high level, had a really high level of in-depth training. Tank Farms, not so much. So I had to get over that culture shock, and then begin to teach the folks that I was writing these procedures for why they’re changing, and what it meant for them, and why it was better to do it this way. So eventually, we did. We were the first group to use electronic photography in procedures. We were the first group to have all of our procedures computerized. And we worked hard and it came out really well. I learned that I really enjoy that process of figuring things out and then of using my writing skills to convey that in the best way possible. I really enjoyed that. After four years at Tank Farms Procedures, a new facility was being built, the 200 Area Effluent Treatment Facility. So I transferred from Tank Farms to the ETF. In part, because they had stuck in a manager that no one got along with. The man was not very—ahem—socially apt. We’ll just leave it at that. I went over to ETF and started developing their procedures as the facility was still being built. That’s where I got laid off. 1995, there was a big layoff by Westinghouse. I got the boot there. So for the next two years—it took me six months to get any kind of job again. And then I was—Fluor Hanford had come in—Fluor Daniels. They had their own built-in temporary company to supply temporary work. So I bounced in and out with that temporary company several times on the canister storage building, a little bit at Tank Farms. And then finally the head of Fluor Northwest just said, we’re done with all these temporary people, because it’s too hard to deal with the temporary company. Just hire them all in. So ’97, I got hired in. And then I got made over into a nuclear safety hazard analyst. That has been my main bread and butter. Hazard analysis, which is a very specific discipline in the nuclear industry, working on safety basis documents, which is the—safety basis defines what you can do and how you can do it, and what you can and can’t do. So the nuclear safety people developed that, the customer—DoE RL—approves it, and that’s what you live by. So we—first we draw the coloring book, then we make sure that everyone colors inside the lines. That’s nuclear safety’s job. Hazard analysis is a part of that, because before you do anything new, or if you’re going to change anything that you’re doing that’s approved now, you have to have a very deliberate process of analyzing all the hazards, figuring out how bad the hazard is, what it could cause, how bad that effect could be—if it’s a real accident or if it’s a no, never mind, that’s already covered by other controls, do the new analysis you need to do, create new controls for it, and get those instituted so that everything is still inside the box.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: When you were working on the Tank Farms, do you think those procedures were just left over from a time when people just didn’t care as much about—</p>
<p>Carson: Yes. Very much so. I guess I skipped ahead. I talked about the culture shock moving to Tank Farms. At N, we had great training, we had really good procedures that were very well thought out and well developed and well proved. We had a deep understanding of all of our limits, why they were there, what it meant if you violated one in a certain way. All that was just ingrained to us. So you did things by the procedure, you lived inside the limits, you knew why, you knew how. There was no problem. Everybody just worked that way. Tank Farms had for years been kind of a dumping ground of the people who couldn’t make it elsewhere. The only lower step was the laundry. And I worked a little bit with some tank farm operators that, shortly after I got there, got transferred to the laundry because they couldn’t make it at Tank Farms. The whole organizational philosophy was the smart guys know what they’re doing, just shut up and do what they tell you, even if it isn’t written down. Don’t worry about that, that’s just for show. Their procedures were—in one case, it was a page-long paragraph that was one sentence. I don’t think it even had a verb. It was like telling a story, and didn’t have any specifics. Nobody understood them. They all hated them, because they were all like that. We changed that; we made it better. The culture shock was coming from a place like N, where, like I said, we were a fast crowd, we were really dialed in, we really knew what was what, to Tank Farms, where there were still people working there—great operators, they really knew their job, they knew what to do—but they couldn’t read. They had a special dispensation to have their requal exams every year orally. Because they couldn’t read. They couldn’t read valve tags. So people would go out with them and tell them what was what. They knew exactly what to do; they were good operators. But that kind of difference in level really caught me short for a while. It took me a while to change my mind to realize that—okay, they want to do a good job, too, no matter how cranky they seem. So don’t look down on them, don’t ride a high horse. Just—they’re people like you, let them to do the job. And it worked out, it did. I made some friends there and we did some good stuff. I helped a lot of them out where I could, explaining things. I think I’ve forgotten what the question was. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I was just sort of exploring this different or maybe changing priorities about the environment or waste control over time and over different parts of Hanford. It seems like they’re—</p>
<p>Carson: Oh, yeah, okay.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: We’re really interested in safety and such at N Reactor and having these great procedures, but maybe the less sexy parts of it were not as fully developed yet.</p>
<p>Carson: Yeah. This is an example I think that illustrates that. We were among the first to really start taking control of our low-level waste. Every place you come out of a zone, there’s what’s called a step-off pad, where you undress in sequence. You take the outermost stuff off, and you step on one pad, then you take the inner stuff off and step on the next one, so that you’re leaving all of the contamination behind. There were rad boxes sitting there, and so for things like your tape and your surgeon’s gloves, would all get thrown in the rad box. That’s what most of our low-level waste was. That kind of stuff. Nobody used to pay much attention to it; it was just something that you toted down to this room, and then you threw it on a truck and somebody took it somewhere and threw it away. They really started working at following the latest directions for how to properly deal with and account for all of the waste: low-level, higher level waste—anything. Getting the accountability, getting the proper labeling, understanding the proper limits for what could be certain types of waste. We really had that ground into us. And we really griped about it, because we were filling out data sheets and filling out labels and other labels and other labels and double and triple wrapping the boxes and labeling the wrappings as we put them on, and doing all this stuff. The one time I ever had to go down to the burial ground—it’s funny, some jobs some people would catch all the time. You might be there for years and there was things you never got to do because you were never assigned to do them. One of those was taking our low-level waste boxes to the burial ground and throwing them out of the truck into the trench. So we had spent all this time doing all this accounting, doing all this labeling, making sure the packaging was all okay and everything was very carefully set up and everything. And we get to the disposal trench in 200 West Area. So we’re carefully—you’re not supposed to damage the box—it’s a cardboard box inside of a couple plastic bags. You’re not supposed to damage it. We’re just taking them and dropping them over the side out of the back of a truck. And here comes a truck from somewhere in West Area, one of the construction things going on or something. A dump truck with wood and broken plaster and glass and a few rad boxes and stuff. They just wave him up there, and the dump truck backs up and just—pbbt—dumps, and drives away. No paperwork, no nothing. I don’t know what was behind it; maybe there were reasons it was like that. But that was just a contrast that really griped me. But they did a good job at N of explaining why the way we were doing things had to change. Why the new way was actually better, what it meant for stopping releases to the environment, reducing them. Things you should do to lower your impact, lower the amount of waste. That’s where I first really started getting it, and it slowly moved into other places so that things were much more accounted for and controlled. These days, it’s very controlled, it’s very different. It’s much more secure. Nobody uses those rad boxes anymore. The only place I ever see them is in rad update training every year. Everything’s in certified drums. It’s treated certain ways. It’s all measured and accounted for, and inspected before it goes to its final burial to make sure that there is nothing in there that isn’t supposed to be. There’s a whole entire facility in West Area that’s devoted to doing that. Waste Receipt And Processing, WRAP. They get in drums of waste from all over the site, and they do NDA on them to find out how radioactive they are and what kind of radioactive stuff is in them. They X-ray them. If necessary, they will open them up, take everything out, sort it out, so that the stuff that isn’t supposed to be there is out, and then repackage them properly. So everything is very concentrated on making sure that any waste products, whether radioactive or chemical or even domestic waste, is handled and treated properly. And that has really exhibited a standard growth curve. Because when I first started in the ‘80s, there was a lot of resistance, both kind of social and institutional, and among the groups. But the people who understood it just kept pushing, kept pushing, kept getting the message out. Gradually, you saw the same kind of acceptance go up like that, like a normal growth curve. That’s just the way things are done now. So that part’s a lot better. I never really experienced any untoward activities. We were never told to go dump stuff in a hidden place. We were never told to dispose of something in an unapproved way. But a lot of the stuff that we were around wasn’t as controlled or properly packaged or set up as it would be today. That’s all to the good. You used to be able to go just about everywhere and there would be contaminated patches. A lot of those have been cleaned up. People no longer are allowed to just stick something out here and just put a rope around it and call it an accumulation area. There’s very high degree of control and accountability. The job I’m in now with Central Plateau Surveillance and Maintenance, they have a responsibility for all the old retired facilities, the old canyon buildings. And there’s a lot of auxiliary buildings around those and a lot of waste sites and old cribs and trenches. Most of what they do is repeatedly inspecting all that stuff, making sure that anything that’s present is properly in place, that it’s allowed to be there, that they know what it is, that nothing’s going wrong. So that’s all really a lot better. In all of society and all of industry, things are much safer now. People understand chemical hazards especially. We used to be able to go get stuff out of the tool crib that isn’t even allowed to be sold anymore, because it’s carcinogenic. But there, it was an electric cleaner called Swish that was mostly carbon tetrachloride. And you could just get a spray can of it and go and clean things off with it, or kill spiders. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So I’d love to come back to this, but just to make sure we get to it before we run too long on time, could we step back to your childhood in Richland--</p>
<p>Carson: Sure.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: --and what it was like growing up in Richland? Could you tell us a bit about that?</p>
<p>Carson: Well. Virtually everyone I know, their folks worked in the Area. They never talked about what went on what there or what they did. My dad talked about some fire department stuff sometimes.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was that the fire department on the site or just—</p>
<p>Carson: The Hanford Fire Department, yeah. Nobody ever really knew what was going on out there. The closed-mouth, closed-city—you know. I always thought it was amazing. Very early in the morning, my mom would drive me to a baby-sitter down in south Richland. And I always thought it was amazing, she could look out to the northwest and she would tell me which plant was running. I didn’t know they were reactors; I didn’t know what it meant. But she could look at the steam plumes, because even though they weren’t modern reactors with cooling towers, they still had retention ponds before the water went back in the river, and those would steam. She could just look at tell me which plant was running. And I always thought that was amazing. We had a fairly—at least in my experience anyway, as a middle class, my folks were both working, lived in a nice neighborhood up near Spalding School. We had a very safe, nice environment to grow up in, a good childhood. Just a lot of playing in the street, going over and playing in the playgrounds. You go to school, you have all your friends there, and you go do stuff. Not a lot different than most places, but—I loved then, and I still do, and unless you grow up in a place like here, you don’t get the chance to just walk in the desert, way away from anything where it’s really quiet, and you got all the sagebrush that just smells so good. And you just walk way out there somewhere, and no trees around, and just sky and desert and total silence. That’s something you really only get growing up here and somewhere very like this. Everybody knew about the Area, but never talked about it. I do remember, I was in first grade, I believe, when the Mobile Whole Body Counter came to Spalding. They gave us some tours of it, and they said that some people were going to get to go through it after school. Well, I thought it would be really neat. I think what they were probably doing was running some of the teachers through it, just as environmental sampling, really. This was in—this would have been ’64, around there. About ten years after the Green Run, when there weren’t huge releases like that, but there were still some releases going on, a lot of monitoring. I waited around after school for an hour, hoping to get to run through this. They would bring people in and 20 minutes later they’d come out. I got in trouble because I was so late walking back to my babysitter’s after school because of that. But where else is something like that going to happen? The Hanford Science Center was a pretty special place. To us, it was like just an everyday thing—doesn’t everyone have a neat science museum like this? But, no, they don’t. It was no longer—I was born in 1958. So the city was no longer run by GE. But there were still people—and they were still indulged by the city government—who, if a light bulb went out, they would call up the way that they used to call GE up to come and change it. For a while, that still kind of went on, somehow. I remember the air raid siren tests. On the last—in the last week of the month, I don’t remember what day it always was. But I always remember getting kind of scared about that. There’s nothing like that sound of—Richland had three, then two, then one—of air raid sirens going off. And at that age—eight, nine—I was starting to realize what that meant. That if that ever went off for real, it was all over. It was a big deal, a really big deal, to have to go to Kennewick or Pasco, because there was only the Blue Bridge, which wasn’t the Blue Bridge then. It was green and it was called the New Bridge. And then there was that horrible frightening old green bridge that was taken out. So if you had to go to Pasco, you had to go to and through Kennewick, and then go over one of those bridges. The highway between Richland and Kennewick was—I can still remember when it was just one lane each way. There was actually a stop light at George Washington Way, because the highway came in and curved and there was a stop light at G Way before it went up to the bypass part. Right there at that intersection is where the Rose Bowl was. Everybody knew the Rose Bowl, the sewage treatment plant. Great way to be introduced to a town when you’re first coming into it. As far as I know, it was a fairly normal childhood. My friends and I, we did all the normal things. When the hydroplane races started, there was a couple weeks in the summer where all anybody wanted to do was play hydroplanes. So everybody would have their own little scraps of wood they made into a hydroplane, and you’d drag it behind your bike in the street. Or turn on a hose and set it in the gutter and go make a dam to make a big puddle you could run it through like a boat. Day sleeper signs. Everybody—almost everybody worked a rotating shift—ABCD, where you rotate, at the time, from swing shift to days to graveyard<a>[EM1]</a> . My dad worked a rotating shift for 17 years. Once I started it, I understood how bad it had been for him when I was young, when I was little. But you’d walk around, and in the windows, in houses, “day sleeper.” You just understood that probably most of your friends were going to live in a house just like yours if you lived in one of the Alphabet House districts. A lot of my friends had the same or very slightly different models of ranch house all up in that area. So you knew exactly where the bathroom was, you knew where the kitchen was, you knew where the light switches were, because they were all the same. That’s probably somewhat different. There were virtually no African Americans in Richland. In elementary school, I think there was two—there was a boy my age, and his sister who was a little younger. Caused me some problems, because he slapped me around one day after school, and that affected my attitude for a long time. But because there were almost no black people in Richland, I had no idea what they were like or anything. My parents, a lot of their friends were conventionally racist at the time—it would be very racist now. But at the time it was just conventional. And because there were so few of them, they all knew each other because they had their own community that they would get together. I just thought that it was natural that every black person in the world knew every other one. Because they would always say, hi, how are you, and talk to each other like they knew each other. I thought that was normal. So I don’t know how common that is across all of the US, but it was certainly true here. Because Kennewick was a restricted city, Richland was mostly a city for somewhat upper level workers at Hanford, Pasco—East Pasco was where most of the African American people and the Hispanic immigrants went. It was always used as a term of horror—oh my god, we have to go by East Pasco. I’ve been there, now. It’s people with houses and neighborhoods and kids and dogs. At the time, it was just hell to be—this horrible thing. So I just—I grew up with that. Everybody knew the same things about everything, and believed the same way. That was really about it.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Was going to college when you first sort of left this bubble, if you will?</p>
<p>Carson: Yeah. I went to Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, which—I grew up in the Lutheran Church. Really white. Going to PLU wasn’t really all that far outside the bubble. There was a little bit, because there was a very large contingent of Taiwanese kids going to school there. I tried to be all friendly and stuff—it was my first experience with the fact that other people can dislike you, too. So that was a problem. But that was—it was a good experience. It was being away from here, seeing some different things, the way different people lived. Met my wife. So that was a really good thing. But at the time, even though growing up here, I still didn’t really know a lot about Hanford or the nuclear industry, I knew a little more than when I was a kid—but not really that much. So I had no real good arguments or rebuttals for the people who—there in the mid ‘70s were already rabidly, no nukes, no nukes. Get rid of Hanford. Clean it up and throw it away. So that was kind of frustrating. There was one thing I was glad when I got hired on out here, I finally had a chance to learn all this stuff. Other stuff growing up here really is just things based on being here in this area. The place to go if you were going to go ride motorcycles or shoot your bow and arrow or pellet guns or whatever, you went down behind the cemetery along the Yakima River in Richland.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Carson: Later on that became a place to go when people would go have keggers or wanted to go smoke or make out or whatever, that was a popular place. I never got invited to do any of those things, so I was only ever down there with my motorcycle. I do remember, as I moved into high school, I started to understand the feeling of isolation that Richland had. Because we had been not really a closed, secret city like a lot of the ones in the Soviet Union were, but just like a cloak of invisibility over all we did here. Nobody ever really knew much about us. I was there when Richard Nixon flew in to authorize Fast Flux Test Facility. He had flown into Walla Walla on Air Force One, because at the time to the Pasco airport couldn’t service a plane that large. And then took the Air Force One helicopter and they landed in front of the PNL sandcastle and chopped down a couple trees. I’ll always remember that, because it came down and just—limbs were flying all over the place. He stood—something you wouldn’t see anymore. He was all by himself. He didn’t have a retinue behind him, around him. The Secret Service was sort of out there, but they weren’t really a visible presence. He just went and stood on the steps and addressed people and talked about stuff and announced FFTF and what was going to go on and everything. That night on the CBS News, Walter Cronkite talked about how Richard Nixon made a stop in Walla Walla and then flew to Alaska to meet with the Japanese emperor. It was his first trip to the United States since World War II. Mentioned nothing at all about what happened here, which was really far more important than a very minor diplomatic meeting that lasted two hours or something. I then did start thinking about, and I noticed a lot of that isolation. People around here just got used to never being paid attention to, to never having anyone know where they were or what went on here. So a lot of worlds kind of shrunk down to just here. You just—your church, your softball league, your friends, the hydroplane races, and that was the extent of life. So I am glad that things have really expanded out and the diversification that first started being talked about in the ‘70s has really taken hold, and so much more is done here now than just relying, almost 100%, on money from Hanford. I think if there was another bust—another one of the endless boom and bust cycles that Hanford has had over the years—if there was another big bust at Hanford, I think the Tri-Cities could probably pull through it—Tri-Cities and surrounding areas—could pull through it really very well.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Carson: So that’s a big difference from growing up here, is the fact that now we’re somebody. We’re a known quantity, we’re actually a desired destination for many different reasons. We’re known for many different things. Not just, oh, all that secret stuff that nobody knows about.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: I understand you volunteered at the CREHST Museum for a while. What was important to you about the history of the area that got you to do that?</p>
<p>Carson: The fact that I was—that was in the six months that I was first laid off. I was trying to get contract writer work. That necessitated my becoming a business and getting a business license. So I ended up starting my own little computer consulting business. Because I did that, I heard from a friend of a friend who worked at CREHST that they were having computer problems. So I went down and I volunteered. I said, hey, I’ll be glad to come through and try and clean stuff and help you. And then in talking with the director, Gwen Leth—she started asking questions and found out all the other stuff I could do. So she really wanted me, and so I started working there at CREHST. They were fairly newly open, and I rewrote some of the displays, because they were not well-written. They had errors and they weren’t interesting. So I did that. I wrote an article for a magazine about CREHST—by request—that never got published. I helped with the computers, helped with some of their equipment. I just did stuff for Gwen. I was the publisher of their paper newsletter for several years. They would send me this stuff to do, and I’d put it all together into desktop publishing and did that. So that was fun, they were great people. I learned a lot about community education and what it meant and what it could be. I got to see all the neat behind-the-scenes stuff that is always the coolest thing about anything. The people there were just so wonderful that when I went back to work, I still kept in touch doing things like the newsletter, and then when I got laid off again, I would just go down and start back down there. Volunteer sometimes 40 hours a week, sometimes just a couple days. Whatever was happening that I could do, depending on what was going on with my daughter and stuff like that. So I had desperately missed the Hanford Science Center. I talked about that earlier, that it was such a great place to go, especially as I learned more and then could see more of what was actually being told me at the science center. But then when it closed down, I desperately missed having that there. Because I wanted to take my daughter to it, I wanted to keep doing it. I had volunteered to do some stuff at the science center, just before it closed when it was still in the Federal Building. So being able to help resurrect a lot of that, keep it going there at CREHST, and even provide input on what they were going to show next and things. And seeing how all of that was coming together and the efforts that they made to really reach out to the community and continue the education and the keeping the history. And keeping the artifacts alive and just being able to go in there and wander through anytime I wanted was just really great. And the REACH center is a fabulous, wonderful place. But at the time I was working at CREHST, CREHST was still going to be the lead, and they had plans for a facility about the same size down on Columbia Point that the REACH part of it was going to be a small part of the CREHST Museum. Turned out the other way. But CREHST—even just the efforts that people made to make it come about, the people that got together behind the scenes and worked with DoE, worked with the community to get funding, worked just to make things happen like moving the building of the FFTF Visitors Center from out there down to where it is now. That’s what that building is. The below-stairs part was new, but the superstructure is the old FF Visitors Center. So getting that to happen was not simple, was not easy, wasn’t cheap. But they kept at it and they did it. So that kind of dedication inspired me to do more along that line, like this.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Okay. Well there are always questions I don’t know to ask. Interesting incidents, or themes you wanted to talk about or anything like that that comes to mind that you thought might be worth mentioning.</p>
<p>Carson: In terms of work, or in terms of growing up here, or just anything?</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Either or both.</p>
<p>Carson: One of the things I did at N Reactor was I became one of the designated evacuation bus drivers. At the time, because facilities were manned around the clock, and it was 43-and-a-half miles from my driveway to the N Reactor parking lot—a long ways out there—you had to have some way to evacuate everyone that was there, in case there was an actual big accident. On regular dayshift, all of the buses that brought everybody from town were all there. But there were, parked off on the side, a couple of the old, old buses that were there strictly to be evacuation buses. They didn’t have enough drivers to have one on every shift to make sure that was covered, so they just enlisted operators. We got special training in how to drive the old buses and stuff. So on weekend dayshifts or sometimes on swing shift, and even on graveyard a few times, if everything, all the work was caught up, there was nothing going on, we would go out and practice driving. Just drive around all over. So I got to see a lot of the Area that’s really not terrifically accessible now. Because, man, those buses will go a lot of places. They love a gravel road. Drove all over, saw the Hanford Bank. Drove down, found the big boat ramp between F Area and H Area where the Hanford patrol would put their tactical boat in and out, and also where a lot of bald eagles like to hang out in the winter. Drove out to—way out by Vernita Bridge to the old warehouse, the stone warehouse that’s out there—drove out there, and drove around that. Got out and looked at it. At the time, they still had part of the old highway, the old two-road highway that led down the valley and over to Hanford and White Bluffs and serviced all the farms and everything around there. We drove on this dirt road around B Area, and then all of the sudden, here’s a beautiful paved road where the lines are bright and clear and the pavement is not cracked. So we just kept on driving. That was an exciting find.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Were these evacuation plans pretty well founded already when you got there?</p>
<p>Carson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you had—in case of an emergency, you had an assignment to come and grab an emergency response card. There were holders of these in the control room. Everybody was supposed to go run in there and grab one and do what it said. Just one thing, whether it was shutting down some equipment, or going and closing something up, or something. You go and do that job, come back, if you’re done then you go and get on the evacuation bus and it will leave when everybody’s accounted for. So the whole evacuation thing had been practiced and set in place for years and years. Luckily we never had to do it, except in a drill. Oh. One of the funny things—one of the first times, it was just us three or four operators going out for a practice drive without the instructor or anything. It was a really hot summer’s day on the weekend. Those buses didn’t have air conditioning. [LAUGHTER] They did have eyebrow vents—one above the driver and one above the door. And we’re driving along and all the windows are open and it’s just too hot. So one of the other guys on my shift, operator, he gets up and he says, I’m going to open these vents. And he reaches up—I was driving—and he reached up above me and opened that one. Air started coming in. And all of the sudden—he opens this one—and there was a big bird’s nest inside that vent. And the way he was, he pulled it and it went right in his face. [LAUGHTER] There was just this explosion of straw and feathers and dried bird poop and stuff. We all tried really hard not to laugh at him, but—[LAUGHTER] he even laughed at himself, so. That was another thing. I remember when Uptown sat kind of alone. There wasn’t really anything built up around it yet. The big Mormon church had been built across the street, but there was nothing else out around it. And over now where that Exxon station and the Fire & Water store and the restaurant and where Hastings is, none of that was there. There was a couple of old wooden shacks. No idea what they were. But one night, it was a fall night, and we went because my dad was there as part of the fire department. There was some kind of—I don’t know—maybe a fire prevention week celebration or something. They were going to burn the shacks down to show what it looks like when the fire department puts out a fire. So my dad was part of that. And there were hundreds and hundreds of people standing in the Uptown parking lot, watching as they set these two shacks on fire. They let them burn for quite a long time, then they came out and put them out, and there was a lot of ooh, ahh. That’s a fairly early thing. One thing that happened through the ‘60s that I took for granted and then didn’t realize when it stopped until several years later—there were all kinds of traveling exhibitions that did come through here from NASA or the Army or the Navy or the Air Force. They would come and bring an exhibit and set up like in the Uptown parking lot or somewhere. They would be there for a day or two and give their spiel and you could go into their trailers and see what they had. Then they would pack up and move on to somewhere else. There were a lot of those. One that I wish I would have done, but at the time I didn’t think it was important—the X-37 Dyna-Soar—it was a first lifting body design for a recovery vehicle, or an early design for a space shuttle in the ‘60s—to go right around the Gemini program. It was eventually going to become a part of the Army’s or Air Force’s manned space laboratory program that never got off the ground. And they brought the vehicle around on a big trailer with a little trailer museum to talk about it and stuff, and I wish I would have gone to see that. But I was too busy doing something else that I thought was more important. So all kinds of stuff like that would come through. There was always—Griggs brought in a lot of these little, cheap tawdry little traveling exhibits and things. Bonnie and Clyde’s death car showed up there on a trailer when I was a kid. Right after the movie had come out and I was just really fascinated by the whole gangster thing. So of course I made my mom and dad go all the way over to Pasco to Griggs to see that. One I felt bad about then and I still feel bad—they had a dolphin that was in like a ten-foot above ground swimming pool, just barely moving. You paid $0.50 to see that, and I just felt bad. And just the kind of stuff that doesn’t really happen anymore. There was a lot of that still. Because the Tri-Cities, I think, moved into the ‘60s a little more slowly than other places.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Well, this has all been fascinating. I know our battery starts running out around this point.</p>
<p>Carson: Okay.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So I guess we’ll have to wrap up now. But it really has been great.</p>
<p>Carson: Great.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: So thanks a lot.</p>
<p>Carson: You’re very, very welcome, and I would be happy to come back and talk more about other things. Anything you’d like to ask questions about.</p>
<p>O’Reagan: Fantastic, thanks a lot.</p>
<p>Carson: Great. Thank you.</p>
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<p> <a>[EM1]</a></p>
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Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:35:12
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
248 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
N Reactor
200 Area
200 West Area
F Area
H Area
B Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1958-2016
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1981-1997
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with David Carson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Reach (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Nuclear waste disposal
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-4-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-29: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with David Carson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
200 Area
200 West Area
B Area
Chernobyl Nuclear Accident
Effluent Treatment Facility
F Area
H Area
K-Basins
N Reactor
Richland (Wash.)
Secrecy
Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS)
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe14e4177541d86d726108ff0ae769395.jpg
09ca8e040f8702ef5a35ef159d767c68
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c057bb8e9f110352e26b93ab36a49ec.mp4
6baf716dfe1500e5c0f22fb821d2eb4a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Young
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110">
<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span class="SpellingError SCX210620110">Young_John</span></span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">John Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">R</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> Young. J-O-H-N R Y-O-U-N-G.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">All right, thank you. And today's date is October 22</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">nd</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> of 2013.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I'll agree on that.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Sounds good. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> Tri-Cities.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> So</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">let's start by having you tell me when you came to Hanford? What brought you here? How you got here?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">What was that? </span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: When did you come to Hanford—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">to work and Hanford, and what brought you here?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">You want the whol</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">e story of how I got to Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> It'll take me 15 minutes. I wrote a letter up to here after I saw an</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">article in the newspaper saying they were looking for employees. And after that, they accepted me from the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">standpoint that they would find out whether or not I was qualified.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And for the next two months, the FBI and other agencies went through my history and got information from my</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">doctor and so forth. And in early June</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">well actually, yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">h</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ey finally decided that they would offer me a job. Or</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">they offered me a job.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And so where had you been living before you came here? What year was this, also?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">What was that?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Where were you living before you came here, and what year was this that you moved here?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Oh no, I didn't have any employee but here before.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110">
<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">But where did you live before you came here?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110">
<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Where was I working?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX210620110">
<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Where did you live before?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Oh, I lived in Albany, Oregon. And I worked there as a carpenter because my dad made houses.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So anyway, when I found out that I was supposed to arrive on July the 8th, I started from home on July the 7th. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">wanted to be sure that I got here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Now</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> something I should tell you now is that during that spring, the Columbia River was at its highest violation you</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">might say, or amount of water, in history. And it had wiped out parts of Portland. And there were only two bridges</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">on the Columbia River, in the United States. One was the Bridge of the Gods down by Portland, and the other one</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">was a bridge up by Canada.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So I didn't have any choice of how to get here. So when I left home, I drove up to Portland on back country roads</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">because the main roads up to Portland were all wiped out by the water. Got to Portland. It was 17 miles east to</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the Bridge of the Gods.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And that was actually a very funny ride </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">because the road I was on the south side of the river and railroad track</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">were the only two things on that side of the river. And I could drive along there and look out over the top of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">rails on the railroad, and I could see that the flood two feet below the top of the railroad.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Anyway, I got to the bridge safely. Went over the bridge, and I knew that the road on the other side going east</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">from the Bridge of the Gods grows gradually up the ridge on the north of the river and eventually goes over the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">top of it and go down into the Yakima Valley.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And I got about halfway up that r</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">idge when the engine on my car b</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">lew out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And fortunately it was right at a little town there that had some place where they could fix my car. So I spent the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">rest of that day there while they were working on the car. And they got t</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">he car ready for me by 8:00</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> the next</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">morning, which was the 8th. So I drove on up over the top of the ridge down into the Yakima Valley, because I</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">knew that if I could get into Yakima, there's a main road coming from Yakima down here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I got down to the bottom of the hill there, started towards Yakima. And I got two miles, and they found out that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">there's three feet of water over the river</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">over the road, pardon.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So I turned around, went back. And there was an industrial area there. And I found a guard there and said is there</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">any way I can get down to here. He said oh yeah, go back up to the road to Yakima and then go east. And when</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">you get down, about 30 miles, there's a bridge over the river.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So I took it and went in to Richland, getting there about noon on the 8th, which was fine for my getting there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> I ate my lunch, went into the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">uilding</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">which was only a one story building at that time</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">and I found out</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">where the manager of personnel</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">well, new in personnel were.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Walked down to his office, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">alked in his office. And he had about five desks in there. He was on one of them right</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">by the door. And he was busy working on it. So I stood there, I'll </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">say, for over a minute w</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">hen </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">he finally looked up and saw me. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">o I reached out my hand to him and said who I was. He stood up. He</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">opened his mouth wide. And he stood there for over a minute, utterly amazed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">When he finally got himself together, he said, how in the world did you get into Richland? What had happened was</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the management of Hanford had concluded that nobody would get into Richland for the next month. And that's</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">why</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> he was so astounded that I got into town.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">There was a [INAUDIBLE] if you want to call him that and overlooked the fact that I was a westerner. And I can go</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">anywhere in this country that I want to, because I was raised on a cattle ranch down in Central Oregon. And I</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">knew where to go through the, I'll say, backwoods. And that's how I got there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So anyway, their question then became, what are they going to do with me? Because they'd shut down the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">orient</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ation class for new employees, s</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">o I couldn't go to work out in Areas. What were they going to do with me for</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">a month?</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Now the first thing they did is they got me a room out in the barracks in North Richland. And then they told me to</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">report to the produ</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ction scheduling office in the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">uilding the next day, which is a top secret operation. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the purpose of that office was to determine which tubes in the reactors should be discharged the next time they</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">had</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> an outage at the reactors.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And consider that there's 6,000 tubes out there. They had a new calculation system because they had a calculator</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">which was designed to do that calculation to tell them what the amount of uranium was, or the amount of</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">plutonium was in those process tubes. And such a method of calculating did not exist anywhere else. It was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">special calculator designed by Marchand.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Well anyway, I spent the next month in that office. I had a copy of the manual for Hanford</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—it </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">was a top secret copy.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And I could read that and find out everything that went on in Hanford in their manual.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And then at the end of that month, when they finally opened up their orientation operation, I went through that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">process. And then I went out to the 100 Areas to go to work. I wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">s assigned for six months at B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">eactor as an</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">assistant, </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">well, operator for the reactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">It was a training period. It's a General Electric process. Any time the Ge</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">neral Electric Company—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">at that time</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> anyway—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">hired a new employee that had an education, they would put them out into one of their operations or</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">many of them to give that person training on what to do in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">job that they're going to get. And when they got</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">throug</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">h with the six month part</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> that I was out there, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">hey then assigned me to day work</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">out in the 100 Areas.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And I spent the next 17 years out in the 100 Areas as a senior engineer, one of the few that they had out there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Now I had to earn that title of senior engineer. But I was working on increasing the productivity of the reactors,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">reducing the cost of operating reactors, reducing</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> the amount of radiation well, affecting workers out there—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">things</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">of that type</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> for 17 years.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">At the end of the 17 years, they started shutting the reactors down. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So I resigned. Went to the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">rea and</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">joined </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">several organizations down there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">You know, there's so many of them floating around there, it's funny. And I spent 33 years mainly working in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">rea. But what I did was such things as licensing nuclear reactors, seven of them on the east coast of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">United States.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Congress had decided that all of the nuclear power plants in the country </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">should be licensed. And the AEC,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> when</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">they got that, they said well, you should work in the East because we don't want any bias. So those seven reactors</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">are spread all away from Florida clear up to Minnesota.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And after that, that was just a typical action for, oh, about one year. I was still an employee here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And if you want to know what I've done for the rest of that 30 years I spent at Hanford, I've got it listed here if you</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">want it.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: This is something that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> I've had. I filled it out as appropriate just so I could answer questions of the type that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">you've made. And if you want to make a copy of this--</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Oh</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> sure. Yeah, we can do that afterwards, yeah.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> That’d be fine.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">But </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">you see there's—oh, what is it--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">about 15 boxes all in there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I want to go back to when you first arrived in the area in 1948. Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">What did I do?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">You first arrived in the area--</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I just arrived in '40</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">well, you mean in the Northwest?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: No, I mean in the Richland, </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Hanford area.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">In Richford, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">What sort of housing did you have when you first arrived?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">There were in Hanford at that time, large buildings</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">some of them still exist</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">which had multiple rooms for</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">people. And some of those buildings could hold as many as 25 people. And I was single. It was very handy from</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">midtown</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">. It's not out in the sandy places they talk about in this article.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> But that sand, he talks in</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">there so much—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> couple of times anyway—actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> was not Richland. Except for little locations where one building might be built. Most of Richland was</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">grassy. And if you're in Richland, you're not getting any sand blowing around. And if you read their article there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">they talked about the sand when there were on construction locations.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Well that's normal throughout the whole s</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">tate of Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So what your first impressions of Richland when you first got here?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">When I first came in?</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I got a story for you that you're going to wonder if you want to publish it. I, like I said, drove into Richland on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">8th of June and got my lunch. Ate my lunch, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ent into the office </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">there. And I guess I told you that this fellow said</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">how in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">world did you get into Richland? </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So from that time on, I was working. And I was working out in 100 Areas. The first six months, I was working at B</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> and D R</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">eactors. And my position was assistant shift superintendent.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> See, they had shut B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">eactor down for, must have been four years because they wanted to keep it available in</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">case they had to get some more plutonium for the military in a hurry. And that was the only time I was on shift.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">After that, my work was what you might call typical engineering. You can call it nuclear engineering if you want to,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">but it's general types of engineering</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">reducing operating costs, increasing production, reducing the radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">doses to employees, those types of things for 17 years. Ended up as a senior engineer.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Of the different sorts of jobs, different parts of the Hanford site that you worked on, was there something that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">found most challenging, most difficult, and/or something that you found sort of most rewarding about what you</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">did?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I don't understand your question.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Well, you had at least a few different jobs. You worked in the 100 Areas, right? And then you worked the 300</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Area. Where there certain things that you did that you found sort of more challenging, or more difficult than</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">others? And were there certain aspects or certain jobs that you had that you really found especially rewarding,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">that you really enjoyed</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">The main difference was that when I was working in 300 Area, the reactors were reactors of the types that were</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">used everywhere else in the United States. The Hanford reactors were very specific reactors because their only</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">purpose was to produce plutonium. Whereas the other reactors in the United States were primarily built to</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">produce electricity. It's a different design. And it also had more, shall we say, more opposition by the public.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Yeah. And that's a subject that you might want to address</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> because the people who are supposed to be the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">experts on radiation generally refused to use the information which says that low level radiation is beneficial. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">makes a lot of difference. That low level radiation is so beneficial. In my case, I got 15,000 radiation dose. All of it</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">was low level radiation. There might have been some high level in there, but I can only tell you what the badge</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">has, you know?</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And that's something that you might want to mention in your articles if you publish them. There are numerous</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">people here, particularly in Hanford, that refuse to recognize that fact that low level radiation is beneficial. And like</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I say, there are scores of documents that say that low level radiation is beneficial.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">You talked about your badge. I wonder if could talk about safety at Hanford? Did you have to wear any special</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">clothing equipm</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ent of any kind to do your work?</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> What sorts of ways was safety sort of part of what you did?</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> I was cleared for every type of</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">limited information. I got that when I told you I went into that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">one office on the first day. That was a top secret operation. And top secret gives you access to anything,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">assuming you had a need for it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I spent</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">let's see, how long were we in Oak Ridge?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Woman one</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">One year.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">One year, yeah. I spent one year in Oak Ridge on a committee which had somebody for every one of the AEC</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">outliers, you might say. And the purpose was to determine where to protect their materials could be manufactured</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">if somebody needed them. In other words, if you want high level radiation dose or something.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I was dealing with people from every one of the major AEC outsides. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">But I would ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ve ranged all</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> in</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> various types of work that involve radiation. For instance, I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">a manager at preparing environmental impact document for fusion reactors. And that document was presented in</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">a meeting to the international fusion organizations in Germany.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">About what time period was that? Do you know?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Oh</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> my. Let's see. That must be about 1990.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">During your years working at Hanford, were the any events, incidents, events, special occasions, things that sort</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">of stand out in your mind from your time working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">You mean the reactors involved?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Oh, c</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ould be, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Yeah, we head one out in the 100 Areas. For essentially all of the reactors, when t</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">hey milk the reactors, they—of course the </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">reactors are made out of graphite.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">They ran tests on graphite and so forth, and they learned that they could operate the reactors with a fairly low</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">temperature of the graphite. You get too high temperature and you know you might hurt the material.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And as we started raising the power levels of the reactors out there, the graphite started expanding. And the result</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">was that in som</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">e of the older reactors like B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">eactor, the graphite expanded enough that it pushed the shields off</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the outside of the reactor. Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> push them apart you might say.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> the result was that the radiation inside of the reactor was leaking out through the crack at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">top of the far side wall on the reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">. And there was a line </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">of radiation going out that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">crack out through the wall in the far side of the reactor and then up into the air. And the result was that there was</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">about a 20 </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span class="SpellingError SCX210620110">mR</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> radiation dose on the ground outside of the reactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And that's one thing I worked on. They went back into the files of the DuPont people. And by checking through</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">those files, they discovered that if we raised the temperature of the graphite, the expansion would stop. And if you</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">go too low, the graphite would reduce in volume. And so we had to go through a special study to try</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">to figure out what this would do to the reactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And the result was</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—you </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">see</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> the normal tube in the reactor was straight through the reactor. But when the graphite</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">started expanding, the tube went up in arc and came back down because the highest temperature graphite was in</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the center of the reactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So we figured out what was the proper temperature of the graphite</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">—of </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">actually of the gas in the reactor. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">ended up with the top tubes in the reactor going in, going down, going up, going down, and coming back up and</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">going out the back.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">That's the type of things you ran into doing something like those reactors. And by doing that, it sort of drove the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">people replacing process tube on the reactor having to figure out how to get the tubes in the [INAUDIBLE]--[LAUGHTER]--through the reactor. If we had not done that, eventually the reactor would have fallen apart. In other words, if we</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">hadn't figured ou</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">t what was causing the problem—</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">because this reactor would just keep expanding, and finally that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">outside shield would fall over. Or we'd have to somehow rebuild the shield up there to keep it in place. That's just</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">a typical job that you'd have. You might spend six months on that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I had another one. I was working with a fellow who is an expert on water purification. And see, we were cooling the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">reactors with Columbia River water. It had to go through the water plant to clarify the water to get the sand and</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">what have you out of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And when they first designed the reactors, DuPont had discovered that if you did not have the right concentration</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">of materials in the water going through the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> reactor, the tubes were bending</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> into two</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> inside the reactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And in order to prevent that happening, they were use the sodium dichromate in the water on the reactors. One</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">part per million or something like that, but it's still, we're spending about</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> well</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">, over $1</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> million a year buying that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">material. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And I was working there with a fellow who was an expert on operating water treatment plants. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">got together and looked at this sodium dichromate that was used as we said</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">and we were buying that by the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">railroad car load. And I think the total cost was a $1.4 million a year for that one material as I remember it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And we looked at the price of it. And we looked at the price of buying the two components for making that</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">material. And we had enough equipment in the water plants that we could make that material, the sodium</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">dichromate. So we bought the chromate and the sodium, and we cut the costs in half from about a $1.4 million</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">down to $700,000 a year. So we saved $700,000 a year. That's the type of things you work on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">All types of things you get involved in. For instance, when they built the reactors back in World War II, there was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">shortage of steel. So many of the pipes, particularly the ones underground, were not made out of metal. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">when you heat and cool the other types of pipes, they start leaking because they crack open.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So we had to figure out how to solve that problem or reduce the amount of sodium dichromate getting into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Columbia River. We worked it out, reduced </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">it</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> considerable. Those things get a little complicated. I don't want to go</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">through all the detail.</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">So it's involved a lot of problem solving? Your [INAUDIBLE] anyways right, problems with the reactor or whatever</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">you would work on solving those issues.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">What was that?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">If there were problems with the reactors, then you would work on solving some of those issues, work on solving</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the problem.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: Yeah. In other words, you have really two plants there. One was a water plant to provide the water to the reactor. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And then the reactor was the other plant. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">Now what you do with the water, what you get out of that, is just how you get it back into the Columbia River with a </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">minimum</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> of radiation.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And you know, that raises an important thing that I haven't mentioned it to people here in the Tri-Cities. I kept </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">records</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> on what the radiation was in the Columbia River. And when we were running the reactors out there, we</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">were</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> running, you might say, tons of </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span class="SpellingError SCX210620110">radioaction</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> into the river. Yet the amount of radioactivity in the Columbia </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">River here at Richland was essentially zero. It had disappeared you might say, or bee diluted if you want to put it</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">the</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> other way during the travel of the water from out there by the reactors into here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And when I see these articles in the newspaper about they're worrying about the fact that there's radiation out </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">there</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> in the 200 Area and it will leak out into the ground seven miles or something like that from the river, I'd be</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">willing</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> to bet that there wouldn't be much radiation getting down to Richland. </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And the other thing is that it would be low level radiation, which is beneficial if it does get down here. I don't know if</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">you</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> want to put anything like that in what you publish because the nuclear engineers don't want it to be published.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: What was that?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Overall, how was Hanford as a place to Work what did you think of Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: Well to me, that was a typical job, In other words, I had to travel 35 miles to get to my work. But people do that all</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">over</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> the country.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">It was an interesting job because we were working on increasing our knowledge of the subject. It's different than</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">running</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> one of these dams out here where you're generating electricity you know. All you're doing there is pushing</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> button once in a while.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">But by doing the right things out there, we saved millions of dollars. And we also reduced, you might say, the</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">effects</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> of radiation on anybody by making sure they didn't get any high radiation doses.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">But the most important thing about it is that we were, you might say, at war with the rest of the world. As long as</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">we</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> had to make that plutonium and reap you might say, keep Russia at a distance.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">[LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Is there anything I haven't asked you about in terms of your work at Hanford that you'd like to talk about?</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: Well no, other than the fact that once I went to work in the 300 Areas, I worked all over the United States. Because</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">I happened to be, you might say, an expert on nuclear reactors.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">A good example is that the government decided they wanted to have every nuclear reactor, I'll say described, to</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">be</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> sure what it is and how much radiation so forth is involved. In other words, if they did that, they licensed them.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And that was quite an interesting job, because I worked on seven reactors back on the East Coast.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">And of course, I worked for one year in Oak Ridge. And that involved all of the AEC facilities.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> <br /></span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Bauman</span> I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experience with us. I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>: Well, always glad to be helpful.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Thank you very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Young</span>; I would like to see the facts published in your story that low level radiation is beneficial.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX210620110"><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I'm making these, we're making these available for anyone to look at, the [INAUDIBLE] stuff. Thanks again, </span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110">appreciate</span><span class="TextRun SCX210620110"> it.</span><span class="EOP SCX210620110"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:39:31
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
193 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
B Reactor
D Reactor
300 Area
200 Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1940-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1940-1990
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Young
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with John Young conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/22/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-15: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
B Reactor
D Reactor
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
-
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc0f13b96fadf7bb738c566537000019d.mp4
1271c49a08b7d223b0499f5b78e53ec9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Trent, Frank
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Trent_Frank</p>
<p>Frank Trent: Well I don't know.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: I just let people tell their stories is really what the primary thing is. I have some questions to try and help it along a little, but--So we're going?</p>
<p>Man one: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, great. All right. So maybe before I ask any questions, if I could have you say your name and spell it for us.</p>
<p>Trent: Okay. My name is Frank Trent. And I live in Richland, Washington.</p>
<p>Bauman: And the last name is T-R-E-N-T?</p>
<p>Trent: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. Great. And my Name's Robert Bauman. And we are conducting this oral history interview on February 12<sup>th</sup> of 2013 on the campus at Washington State.</p>
<p>Trent: '14.</p>
<p>Bauman: What's that? '14.</p>
<p>Trent: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Thank you. You would think by February I would have figured--</p>
<p>Trent: You want to start over?</p>
<p>Bauman: No, we're good. I'll just say 2014. It's still this form that has it. There we go. So I wonder if we can start by maybe just telling us what brought you to Hanford. How you came here? What brought you here? And maybe your initial impressions of the place?</p>
<p>Trent: Well, I first came here in 1950, in the winter of 1950. And we came over the pass. At that time, it was—there was no Snoqualmie Pass at the time. It was the one out on 410 highway going over the mountains. Closes every winter.</p>
<p>Bauman: Not White Pass, huh?</p>
<p>Trent: Nope.</p>
<p>Bauman: I don't know.</p>
<p>Trent: Maybe it'll come to me. Anyway, we came over the pass in the back of a Deuce and a Half truck. And it was a whole company of us. And pre-military set up here. And we came in and there was snow about 200 feet in the air where they plowed it often, blew it into the mountains. And all you could see is walls of snow on both sides. But anyway, we came on in down here and lived in a pup tent. You don't know what those are probably. You do?</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Trent: And two people teamed up. And here you had something about the size of a blanket. And it was thinner than a blanket. It was called a--the material was made like a tent material. And we called them pup tents. There was two people. And each person carried a half of it. And then when you went out into the fields or combat or wherever, you set that tent up. And that's where you lived. Well, it was pretty cold here. And we wound up burning anything we can get a hold of. It's a wonder we didn't kill ourselves. And these little pup tents, they only had a little opening you could make, or you'd get too much stuff in there--air, cold air.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember any specific things that you burned?</p>
<p>Trent: Show polish. Anything that would get heat. Paper, shoe polish, anything. And that was the worst I guess. And we had one guy freeze to death. I don't know. It was cold. I started driving a water truck. And I wound up in the back of the water truck. It was a Dodge, 3/4 ton Dodge pickup. And it had a cover on it. So I slept in there. And during the night, the water container froze and busted. And I got water all over there and it froze. And I was sleeping in ice. [LAUGHTER] Me and another guy. But that was the shock of it when you got here was there was nothing here but desert. There was a few trees, but people hadn't started raising too many trees at that time. If they did, they weren't very big. That was my--and when we went out, we went out on the Project and stayed out there for three weeks. They had four groups. One group was off all the time. And the other three was covering around the clock. And we set up 120 millimeter gun emplacements, set up in a diamond formation. And then off to the side in the openings of the diamond formation, there was four 50 caliber machine gun nests. And we could fire. And we did. We fired tracers, and every so often, a tracer would come out. They were timed so that every so many shells, and then a tracer would come out. That way you could follow that tracer with your—aiming your gun. But they were also hooked up to, at a later time, to the radar. And there was radar guided. Anyway, that was the emplacements. And we had a full crew there 24 hours a day. And we went up to Yakima and took our guns with us. Two of them I think is all we took though. They were beginning to set up that firing range up there. And we were doing pretty good at shooting that thing. And evidently, the radar got off a little bit with their calculations. And wound up, we shot the cable off just off the tail end of the airplane. They left. They didn't want any more. They says, we're going and we're ain't coming back. So that's part of it. Anyway, that's the beginnings of my arrival here.</p>
<p>Bauman: Where on the site were you?</p>
<p>Trent: Are you familiar enough with the old Y? You go through the first barricade, then you drive for, I don't know, about halfway to 2 West, 2 East. Maybe not quite that far, but there's a turn off there. Goes back towards, still 2 East, that 2 East area. And then you go on down and pick up 2 West. And we turned off just after that barricade out there at the Y. It may be two miles down from that Y area, there was a turn-off. And there was dirt, gravel and dirt. That's the old military highway road. And we were back in there probably five or six miles. You could see Rattlesnake very plainly from there. And a later time, when they built that road down through there going out to Yakima—Horn Rapids High Road—and at a later time, why, you could see that road and traffic on it from out there. Because I went out there with a group on our 50th military reunion and we made a new visit there. And cars were going by. Then there was no road back there. Anyway, at that time, if the cars that had been there--we were that close to where the highway's at now. There's a big knoll out there, just a rounded hill of sand. And that was between us and the Rattlesnake Mountain. So that'll give you a general location of where we were. It was A Battery, 518th.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. So where were you from originally? Had you ever been to this part of the Northwest before?</p>
<p>Trent: No. I come out of Harlan County, Kentucky. Lot of hills down there, rolling hills, but nothing mountainous like we know them now. Born and raised on a farm. Family of 17—18, counting me. And one mother and father. And we raised everything we could raise to eat ourselves. And the only thing we bought was stuff like staples that you had to have that you didn't grow. My dad was a coal miner, and the older boys actually raised the foods that we needed. Fed the animals, and ate the animals. And then in, let's see, October the 8th, 1949, I and two other guys from that area joined the service. I rode a bus. It was raining, about 6:15 in the morning. Got on the bus and never looked back. We went from there to Harlan and got in a military bus. And they drove us to Corbin, Kentucky. And that's right in there near Knoxville. And from there, we got on the train. We went to Louisville and then to Fort Knox. So that's how I got to that. Then we spent three or four months, I don't remember, in basic training. And then we shipped out in trucks for this side of the mountain, for Washington. Well first, we came out by train. And then we got into buses and trucks and went up to Fort Lewis, and Fort Lewis over here. We were selected as the first group to arrive in the Tri-Cities to help set up.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay. So how long were you at Fort Lewis then?</p>
<p>Trent: Just long enough to not want it. We did a lot of advanced basic training, crawling through mud and dirt and dust. And when you come out of there, you couldn’t see nothing but eyeballs. You was hot and then you put your arm down to crawl forward and then shooting over top of you with tracers. And the dust would puff up and it would stick to you, sweat on your body. So that was an experience.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. So you said when you were out of the site, you were there for about three weeks. Then you'd have a week off, then you’d go back. So in terms of food when you were out on site, what sort of food did you have? If you were in the tents all the time?</p>
<p>Trent: Well at the beginning, before we really got set up, we was eating what you would call combat type rations. They'd come in containers and it was dished out after it was heated up. Our stove was a Bunsen burner under pots and pans. And we’d go through a line and dunk our mess kit in the boiling water and get any germs off of it that way. And then we ate dinner, and then we come back and had another container we dunked it in and brushed it out. And then dunked it in clean boiling water again. So that's how we kept stuff kind of sanitized. And a lot of people got dysentery from it. But mostly, it wasn't—we didn't have it too bad. Food wasn't too bad. And at a later time, after we got to set up, we had a regular mess tent and cooks. And we ate good. Sand in it, but we ate.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you know anything about Hanford before you came here?</p>
<p>Trent: No, and I didn't know anything after I got here. But none of us did. We just knew we was guarding this installation, and we would be on around-the-clock duty. If you were asleep, the alarm sounded, everybody went to their stations. And we had a number of planes come through. And we had to get our big guns on it. And we would track it until they gave us the order to shoot. We only shot one time out there. And that was basically to settle the guns in and orient them so when they shot at something, they got fairly close. Those 120 millimeter shell casings were probably about that long. And the projectile was probably about that long. And they were timed: after you shot one of them into the air, they were timed to the target. And then they blew up. And supposedly it would supposed to knock down anything within a—I think it was 75 yards radius. So it could get anything in four directions. And we come close to getting the target plane. Yeah, it wasn't funny to the pilot, but it was funny to us.</p>
<p>Bauman: So then when you had a week off, where did you go? Did you go to town?</p>
<p>Trent: We had barracks in town. And that's the barracks here in North Richland. If you're coming up George Washington Way going north and you come to that rise in the road, and then you can level and go down toward Battelle. Just as you cleared the top of the road, there was a steam and boiler plant, steam generating plant just off to the left. And then the road that went by that—that was one of the first roads. We generally would turn on that. All of that area back down in there was barracks. And you can still see some of the pedestals that they sat on. And then over on the other side of GW Way there was—no, I guess it's still on the same side. They just add roads dividing the camp. And we were fairly close to a service station over on the highway, highway Stevens if you're going out to Hanford. We were just off of that a little bit—our outfit was. And from there, whoever was ready to go in and go back out, why, we took off in Deuce and a Half trucks. And we'd go out in a convoy and relieve the other outfit that was out there. And while you were gone, your camp was taken over by a new group. And that rotated.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, on sort of a typical day, what might your duties be? What sorts of things might have happened?</p>
<p>Trent: Scavenging. We made trips around out there. They probably figured out what we were doing, but they didn't seem to bother us because we didn't have nothing but tents at first. And so we'd scavenge enough stuff until we could put some stuff together to get in out of the wind. We couldn't get away from the sand though. But we did that and then done our duty. And we went off duty in the late afternoon and after dinner, we was off for the evening unless you got an alarm, an alert. And immediately, whatever you could get on, why you got on, and you got on those guns. Got everything turned on and adjusts your azimuth and elevation, and be ready to fire whatever come through if you were told to fire.</p>
<p>Bauman: So how long did you have just the pup tents? At what point did you [INAUDIBLE]?</p>
<p>Trent: It's probably about two months. And they come in and put up what we called a trip tent. And it's big enough to hold about ten people, five bunks down each side. And then later we put in wooden floors in them, and so we'd raise them up off of the ground a little bit so we wouldn't be sleeping right next to the ground. So, they brought it all out, and we had to put it together.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long were you doing this? How long were at Hanford in this capacity?</p>
<p>Trent: I was out there almost three years, And this discharge here. And by then, I was married and had one kid when I was discharged. Discharged in February of '53. And from that point, I found whatever I could to work at. But it wasn't much for a while. Finally I put in an application for General Electric, and they hired me. And that was my first trip as a civilian out to Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned you got married. Did you meet your wife here?</p>
<p>Trent: Yes. Her dad came in '43. Actually, he came in 1940 out to the Northwest. And he went back to Memphis again. And from that point, he was working just across the border in Arkansas, out of Memphis. And some guy come through, I guess from the government, and put the word out, anybody want to transfer or go move to Washington? We've got a project up there we're building, and we need help. Anybody we can get to go. And he came out with that group and worked out here. And a year later, she came out. Well first off, he came in '40, went back and came back in about '43, in '43. And then he was here about a year, and then the kids came out. They came out by railroad, and no supervision. I think she was 12, my wife, 11 or 12. Her mother had—she would have been 12--because her mother had died earlier, tuberculosis. And she came out, and the rest is history. He stayed here and raised his family and worked at Hanford and wound up--one day, they came in and they had nobody that could really read a blueprint and follow it. And so they come around looking, and somebody said, go see Mac. He'll do that. And that was the beginning of his rise, which didn't go very far. He was some kind of a maintenance supervisor out there. And they come and got him and he said, let's see your prints. And he looked at them a little bit. Yeah, he said, I can build it. So they took him over there and he built the building for them with a crew. But they'd already started building. He had to tear it all down because it was wrong. And then after, I don't know, maybe six months, seven, I was in passing, and went into the drugstore at O’Malley’s—you remember where that was at? Okay. That had a little soda fountain in there. And I went in there and me and another guy and ordered a milkshake. And she said what kind do you want? I says, any kind you got. I don't know, just a milkshake. She figured she'd fix me, so she went back there and made me a suicide milkshake. Everything in the fountain went in it. That drink’s pretty good. So that's where I met my wife, 1950. And we were married in December after that.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's a great story.</p>
<p>Trent: Raised three boys. One of them is a Microsoft jet pilot. Flies for Microsoft. And one of them, well at this particular time, is in Edmonton, Canada—construction manager of some kind, hot spot guy. And the other one, Frank, is working in construction over on the west side. And he is living in Brown's Point in Tacoma, right on the ocean.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. So you mentioned at some point you got a job with GE. What sort of job was that?</p>
<p>Trent: Anything to get on. I started out doing manual labor and mowing lawns. And I probably had about five or six months of that. And then I was transferred to White--not White Bluffs—Riverton. And I was doing maintenance work and oil changes on the railroad engines. And many times you'd have oil clean up to your elbows. And I don't know what they did with the oil. We drained it out into containers, and they disposed of it. Probably illegally, in these days. And from there then I went to work at 2 West. And I worked T Plant, U Plant,--at T Plant 221-T, 224-T, those two plants. And then I worked also, that was T-Plant. And then U Plant, I went to work down there. They needed people down there, so they sent me down there and done the same thing down there in U Plant, because the areas were almost identical in operation. And then the stuff that came out of there went to REDOX I believe. And they run through the procedures there, separating stuff out and boiling it down to what they were really looking for. And so anyway, we handled a lot of powdered uranium in that 224 Building. And after it was centrifuged, the heavy metal uranium powder was thrown out to the sides and stuck to the sides of the centrifuges. And the liquid was settled back down and drained back out and recycled back through I guess. I don't remember exactly the procedure. And we'd ship that uranium out of there and put it in barrels. And it was shipped out, I don't know where it went to. Maybe some of it went to Oak Ridge, I don't know. And then that was in operations. And we worked the hot zones. And they had us when we'd go into one, we'd have the RAMU people. They'd check you in, and when you had up to your limit on exposure, you'd come out. Go in and take samples and clean up in areas that were really hot spots.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you did those sorts of things, what sort of protective clothing did you wear?</p>
<p>Trent: Well, we would go in and change into SWP clothing and hoods. We had our regular shoes and we put covers over the shoes, plastic over the covers. And your pants legs were all taped down so that nothing could get through. And gloves, of course. And it was all taped down. And the last thing that went on was a mask. You had a canister of air. And I think you had somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes and you're out of air. You better be out of there, or at least close enough where you could hold your breath and run to get out of there. Yeah, we worked the hot zones quite a bit. Sometimes we'd have to work until we were triple exposed to get a job done. And then of course we was relieved out of that until we were even with the scale of exposure. So that when you back in, why, they basically had you at zero exposure for starting back up. There was a lot of sitting time, because they had to have the people. And if you didn't keep them there, you didn't have the people to do the jobs. So rather than fire them, they'd put them on clean work. And if they didn't have that, you sat in the lunch room and played cards. Then from there—I went in and later, I went from the 2 West Area to the 100 Areas, and was in power operation there--boilers, refrigeration, air conditioning, and pumping stations that pumped water for the reactors.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you were at several places on site then?</p>
<p>Trent: Mm-hmm. I worked 100 B, C, D, DR, 2 West, not 2 East, but I'd been in 2 East a number of times. 2 West, I think that's about it out there, Riverton of course, at the beginning I was in Riverton. That's the old railroad station that hauled stuff in and out of Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: So of those—of the different places on site that you worked at different jobs that you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most?</p>
<p>Trent: I enjoyed operating equipment--boilers, steam engines, pumping water, of course, electric, diesel generators. We had on our river pump station, we had pumps down there that'd pump 105,000 gallons per minute each of water. And if something happened to those pumps, then the diesels come online automatically. Now the diesel size was the PT boat that John Kennedy used when he was in the service. They were two diesel generators of the same size that came out of the—or were installed in the PT boats. And they were pretty good size. They would pump the same amount of water as the big electric box. The lines, I don't know what size they were now. I seem to remember 100, 102 inches in diameter. Pretty good sized piping. And if something happened, the scram, why, of course, they had to have water and generally pumped through with the diesels if something happened to a pumping station. So you always had backup. There was one incident in the 200 Area's power house. We had a backup generator down there generating electricity to use in case of power outages or whatever. And they were set on automatic standby. And my father-in-law was at that with his crew, was there doing work in that area. And it was in an open, kind of an open area. The showers were in that general area too. Never had a problem with any of those diesel generators. And they were in there eating dinner. They set a row of lockers up to separate the area. And that was where they ate. And that's where they went in and took showers before they went home. Or they come out of hot zone, they still had to take a shower. And they were in there having dinner, and for some unknown reason, nobody hung around. They ate their dinner, and they got up and went out back to the job and whatever they were doing I guess, early. And the generator tripped and came online. There was something wrong with the governor. And a diesel generator when it turns loose like that, and it can't get fuel from one place, it'll get it from another. It went on up to critical speed and blew up. And it embedded metal about three inches into concrete, solid concrete. So that's how bad—it could have wiped out everybody in that room. It wiped the room out. All their lockers and everything, that was gone. But that was one of the incidences that I remember that happened.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you have any idea roughly what time period that might have been?</p>
<p>Trent: Phew, no, I don't. It would've been in the low '50s, early '50s. Because he went to work there in 2 West when I first came here. Yeah, his crew worked 2 West, 2 East. So they rotated around, wherever they were needed. But that happened to be in the 2 West Area where that generator blew up. Nobody was hurt. Pure luck.</p>
<p>Bauman: Earlier when you were talking, you mentioned that when you were in the army stationed out here, you didn't really know anything about Hanford or what was going on?</p>
<p>Trent: Well, we know we were guarding the installations there. And we knew that workers came in by buses and left by buses. And then later years—first you couldn't drive a car out there of any kind other than government. And then later years of course, that was relented and people could drive out there to their area. But mostly we were in and out of there in buses. And we came in nothing but bus to the 1100 Area, which is over here, off of Spangler, south of Stevens. And we came into there and unloaded there in a big parking lot in there while we had our cars parked there. So that's the routine. Everyday, we get up, the buses come through town and picked you up, all you to the 1100 Area. You changed to your area bus and get on there and it'd take you to right straight to your area, and off of there and check you through the security. And the same way when you come out. Security would check you out, you'd get on the bus, they'd haul you home.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was there at some point that you ended up driving your own car out? Or would you take buses?</p>
<p>Trent: I did a couple of times, but it wasn't worth it. There's too much fuel. But fuel was cheap then, compared to now. Still, you had to—and we came out when John F. Kennedy came out here. The whole family went out. And I was at that time working at 100 N Area. And we got 100 N Area up. And I was on duty the night they went critical and put the reactor in operation. That was the first dual purpose reactor, 100 N.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you have any specific memories about when President Kennedy was here? What the day was like, or remember anything about him arriving?</p>
<p>Trent: The only thing I know is we were--they had the place set up for visitors to come in. And they had a lot of chairs. And a lot of it was standing room only because they didn't have enough chairs. They were getting ready to build the Washington Public Power Supply System’s generating system out there. And the pumps, those pumps I swear that they were longer than this room, each pump, steam-generated or steam-powered. And that was 109 N, was that generating place. And people were rotated shift-wise the same way—ABCD was the shifts. And of course, the fourth one was off. And then while that one was off, a spare would come in. So actually it's five crews. It was interesting. I worked water side of it for a lot of years. We had one guy that worked out there that was scared to death of something he couldn't understand. And he could not understand the big piece of equipment operating. And he was scared of it. And one night on duty—our shift was, and the chief engineer said Frank, can you get down to 181 real quick. I says, well, yeah. So anyway I headed out, grabbed the first pickup I could find in the parking area there and drove it down to 181. Both diesels were running backup. Don't know what happened, still don't. Anyways, I found him. He was sitting back in a corner away out of sight of the diesels. He was standing there in a corner shivering, just scared—petrified. So I got him out and put him out in the pickup. And I say you stay out there and let me take care of the problem here. So anyway, I guess I took care of the problem and then got him out there. So I got the generators under control and asserted the diesels under control, put them back on automatic and standby. And then the other pumps of course, got them going in the order I was doing the job. And I went and got him back out there. And when I reported in and wrote the incident up, he came to me, I don't know, very short time thereafter. And he says Frank, I'm going to quit. He said, I'm married, I've got three kids. I can't get into the military. And that's what I want to do. So he said I'm going to divorce my wife and I'm going to volunteer for the Coast Guard. And he did that. And the next thing I know, he put a transfer in from the Coast Guard into the military, army. And they accepted him. So he got into the military even though he was married. And a few years down there, well I guess it was nothing but two or three years, or a year or two. Anyway I got a call from my son who was a warrant officer flying helicopters down in Louisiana, Texas and Louisiana area. But anyway he--I guess, yeah, it was Texas. Killeen, Texas. He said do you know a Dave Eggar? I said, yeah. He said you won't believe this, but he's the guy in charge of training us in these helicopters. [LAUGHTER] And he had went through the school, learned how to fly the helicopters, and wasn't afraid of them at all. And he wound up leading that group that my son was in through their training program. And my son flew choppers down there. He already had his private pilot license. He got that before he got out of high school. And anyway, he spent his time in the military and he started flying with them. Wound up at his own company with two jets and a chopper and a little fixed wing, twin engine plane. And then 9/11 went and wiped him out. His business went to nothing. So then he started with putting his pilot's license out there, his experience in getting letters out. And he got a call one day from Microsoft people and went to work for them. He's still doing it, all over the world.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. I wanted to ask you, you had mentioned when you were in the army here and you would have you week off, you stayed in barracks. Once you got married, what sort of housing did you have?</p>
<p>Trent: The first house we got was a small--I think it was about a 20-foot trailer, used. And a lot of the early Hanford people would move trailers in out there. And added onto them as a matter of fact. But as they had kids in a small trailer, where do you put them? You put a room on it. And that's what we did, we lived in that trailer. And then we lived there up until I was discharged. And then we bought a trailer. And I was working for a guy that didn't like the idea of me buying a trailer. It was a single wide. But it was about, I don't know, probably 50 feet long, somewhere in that. It may not have been that big. It was big enough, it had three bedrooms. And bought the trailer and moved it in and set up in and fat, dumb, and happy. But he didn't like the idea of me working for him who was selling trailers and buying it from somebody else. So he fired me. [LAUGHTER] So that was our first home. And then we were forced to move out of the place out there next to the Battelle area, just south of Battelle. We had to move out of there because I wasn't in the military anymore. When I did go to work for GE, we got a house, prefab. I think it was a--first one was a two-bedroom. And then we got a three-bedroom house. And we lived there until they started selling the town back to people. And I was interested. They set it up in blocks. So they would complete the transfer of one block by contracts to the owner that lived in it. And some of the prices were, for the two bedrooms, were like $2,500. And three bedrooms was just slightly more, like $3,000, $3,200. And I don't think any of them ran over $5,000, any of the homes. And lo and behold, I got an eviction notice. I was laid off in between. And two days after they evicted me and I got out of that house, they sold my block. So I didn't get a house. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, that was kind of how we got started. Finally, I left here and worked down in Colorado for about a year and a half, two years. And put in a transfer back there, a transfer or quit and came back to—I was out here on vacation a week's vacation, ten days I guess. And I dropped by the unemployment office and they said yeah, we'll put you back to work. So anyway, I went down and terminated. Gave them my notice and came back out here and went to work. And I worked there until—see I don't remember now, '50—hmm. Late '60s, because I left the project completely in '68. And I was out there one day and boss came in and said, Frank, he said, I understand you talked to so and so. He’s an instrument guy, a contractor that installed instrumentation and tubing for those instruments. I don't remember his name. And he told you were a job was at. And I said yes, he did. Anyway, he said, did you go down for an interview and talk to those people? And I said no. He says, why don't you do that? I said why? I was working at Battelle. Well, he said, you never know. I said yeah, I can go down and talk to him. I went down and interviewed. Went on back out. Still hadn't heard nothing from him and boss came by again and asked me about it. I said, don't know, just sat in there fat, dumb, and happy waiting for things to happen. And then his boss came down and he says Frank, you take that job if they offer it. And after three months, if you decide you don't like it, you come back and we'll put you right back where you're at. You won't lose no seniority or anything. Lo and behold, it was the beginnings of the university here in North Richland. And I came down here and they put me to work. Punched out construction and—helped punch out construction and get them out here. And got everything in operation and moved the staff in. And the rest is history. I left here in 1995, right at 30 years retirement. With military, I had more than enough time for—I think it was a year and a half. 27 and three-quarters or something like that years--and then of course I had five years of service to attach on so, retired with 30 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you look back at your time looking at Hanford, overall how you assess Hanford as a place to work?</p>
<p>Trent: Well compare that to where I came from, and it was a gold mine. Because we were hand-to-mouth. And we had to raise everything by hand or horses or whatever, and some cows, and raised all of our eats and stuff like that. So, we worked. We didn't have no spare time. From the time I was seven, I had a hoe in my hand working. And my brothers, the same way. Girls took care of the house, the boys took care of the outside. We had a pretty good sized garden. And we also had large acres of corn and beans, cornfield beans, potatoes, large patches of potatoes. So we have plenty to eat. Never did lack stuff to eat. But when you look at the lifestyle, and you didn't know where your next shoes was going to come from or your clothes, because money—cash money was hard to come by. And dad worked the coal mines, so he didn't make a lot, but enough to feed his family and keep going. So it was pretty nice to get out here where you can make a decent living. I think I was making--I think I was making about $75 a week, net out, when I first started.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you first started working for GE or for--?</p>
<p>Trent: With GE, yeah. And I also worked the 300 Area. And I helped start up the Sandcastle out here, Battelle where they're at now. The first buildings, there was three of them. And I was down there to get the equipment started and get it running. So I did that until the union got me and forced me out. So that was another reason it made my decision easier to leave there. I had four layoffs from Hanford due to cutbacks. And seniority, it didn't matter who you were or whatever. Seniority won. The other guy sat there and laughed at you and said I told you. You'll be out there working your tail off and he'll be sitting on his fanny reading or whatever. Doing his job, but nothing extra. You get a guy that would get in there and work, it didn't matter. If you didn't have the seniority, you were gone. So I got caught in four layoffs. No, three. The fourth one I quit and came down here. But it was a nice way to make a living.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and telling us about your experiences both in the Army and working at Hanford. Appreciate it.</p>
<p>Trent: Same.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thanks very much.</p>
<p>Trent: You bet.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:56:19
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
192 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
ca1950-2014
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca1950-?, ?-1995
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
Y area
2 West
2 East
T Plant
U Plant
T Plant 221-T
224-T
224 Building
100 Area
B Area
C Area
D Area
DR Area
200 Area
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Eggar, Dave
Kennedy, John F
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Trent
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Frank Trent conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-8: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
100 Area
200 Area
224 Building
B Plant
Building 200 East
Building 200 West
C Reactor
D and DR Reactors
General Electric
Housing
Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963
Richland (Wash.)
SCRAM
T Plant
U Plant
Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS)
-
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c7a06ce1bcaa7cf7ff7b35701c99c37a
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F935d35ec4e72a2fdefbfaff051d8a29d.mp4
8bcb13d04c4911f897a5aaab7e50965b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jack Rhoades
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX78204124">
<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Rhoades_Jack</span></span></strong><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: Okay. We'll go ahead and start. And if we could start by having you say your name and then spell it for us.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Sure, my name is Jack L., middle initial </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Lewis, Rhoades, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">R</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">-H-O-A-D-E-S.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Great. Thank you very much. And my name is Bob Bauman and this is October 16</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX78204124">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start with, if you could talk about your family's background. What brought them here? What brought you and your family here to the Tri-Cities, and when, and that sort of thing?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Sure, well my dad worked for DuPont in the early '40s--like '40, '41, '42--in a TNT plant for the war effort, and he had a college degree in chemistry. So when the Manhattan Project kicked off in late '43, he was one of the people selected out of DuPont's Joliette Plant to go down and train on the chemistry of plutonium at Clinton Works, which later became Oak Ridge, Tennessee. It was located in Oak Ridge, probably an Army Depot at the time. And when he was transferred to the Clinton Works, why, my mom and my younger sister and I—I would have been about four then—went back to the ranch in Colorado and lived with her parents until my father got transferred up here to Hanford in like April of '44. And we finally got a house, or were on line to get a house, by August '44. And so what I can remember--I mean I was a young kid, but this was pretty traumatic, all the excitement of the war effort--but my mom got a telegram, which was hand-carried out to the farm by the postman. And it just simply said, go to Denver, get on train such and such. There'll be a one-way ticket for you waiting, get off at Hinkle, Oregon and the government will take care of you from there. So it was amazing because the train had some servicemen on it, but the preponderance of people on this train were women, just like my mother, headed to Hanford with two or three screaming kids. Everybody was trying to carry a couple suitcases, trying to carry a kid or drag a kid. We got off the train in Hinkle, Oregon—which is out like the armpit of America—and it was dark. It was probably midnight. And the Green Hornets, or the old Army buses, were there with a bunch of MPs. And the soldiers were really great. They helped all the women get their luggage off and loaded us all up into buses and drove over-- course we had to go the long way around Wallula Gap to Hanford. And the parking north of the Federal Building was all administrative and dormitories. So my dad had actually been in a dormitory there with a roommate for six months. And so he was out front waiting when the bus got there, along with tens of other guys. And so his roommate had gotten moved to another room, so there was like two cots in there. And my mom and dad had one cot, and my sister and I had another cot. And we lived there for several weeks until his name came up </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and we moved into an F house on—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Jadwin now, but it used to be Goethals—down in the 300 block. There used to be Campbell's Grocery Store across the street. That's the way life started for us. I was five at the time, but my birthday was in late October, so I started the first grade in Lewis and Clark, which was one of the first schools that was occupied by students because they were still building the houses toward the north. I think maybe Marcus Whitman was in place, and later on Jefferson was built. But there were so many kids that when my mother took me to school, I was assigned to go to school from 6:00 AM to noon. And then other kids came in and went from 1:00 to like 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And so nobody had a car. You just were on foot. And then of course, the government had the Green Hornet buses for transporting people around town to a limited extent, but mostly for transporting workers out to the 200 Area. My dad was actually was the first plant manager of T Canyon, which was one of the two bismuth phosphate plants for producing uranium from the fuel from B Reactor. He </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">later became the manager of 231-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Z. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they first started processing plutonium, the end result at Hanford was plutonium nitr</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ate, and they had to reduce it. It would</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> come out of T and B Canyon</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s as a fluid liquid. And so 231-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Z then con</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">densed it down to like a green Jell-O, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that's what the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">y flew to Los Alamos. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And then Los Alamo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s actually converted the green Jell-O</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> to the metal which went into t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he first Trinity explosion. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">even though everybody knows about Nagasaki because of the plutonium there, ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e was actually a third pit that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was available. And after Hiroshima, Tibbets flew back to the United States to g</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">et the third pit in case it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">needed. But, fortuna</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tely, the Japanese surrendered. So after the war was over,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> my dad got promoted up to what was called an area supervisor. He man</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">aged all of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the plutonium activities because they'd started a new building that was called 234</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">-5, or Z Plant. And Z Plant was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the plant that produced the pits during the Cold War, and that's the nuclear core</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. So what they made down at Los </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Alamos for Trinity and Nagasaki, they transferred the production and the production </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">line up to the building in 234-5 </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and he was a manager of that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I remember, in later years, my dad talking about the building was divided into two </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">parts. There was the top secret </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">half and the secret half, and the workers didn't know who was on the othe</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r side. They had entrances from </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">different directions and they never communicated. And the whole build</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing had—the doors were like a bank vaults, not three </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">foot thick, but they were steel bank vault doors. And he said he had to memoriz</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e over 100 combination locks in the building. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd to him, that was one of the more challenging tasks that he had to do.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And how long did he work at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We left in '50, and it ultimately caused his demise. But he had, according to the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">health physics people, he ended </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up dying of stomach cancer. And so there was a 50-50 chance that it was cause</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d by working at Hanford. But he </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had developed really severe ulcers. And they eventually had to cut out half of his stomach</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because it just </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">perforated and he</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> kept almost bleeding to death. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so we moved to Texas and he went into business with one of his brother</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s in Odessa, Texas selling real </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">estate and insurance. And later moved back in about 1960 and he then worked for Unit</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed Nuclear, and he was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">manage</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r of extrusion press for N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eactor fuel. And then later on was hir</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed by DOE and was a director of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">safety for DOE.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And what was your father's name?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Paul Gordon Rhoades.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so during the war period when you were in first grade, did you have any idea of what your father was doing?</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">What he was working on? What his job was?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">No, absolutely nothing. And he was absolutely paranoid about the secrecy aspec</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t. I can remember that vividly. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And I can remember when news of the bomb was released on the radio, and my</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> mother called him on the phone </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">out at the plant. When she said, did you know that the bomb they dropped on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Japan was made in Hanford? And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he slammed the phone down, wouldn't even talk to her. He viewed working at Hanford as th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e same way a marine </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">would view going ashore in Iwo Jima. It was his duty. In fact, he was not really f</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">or going after the compensation stuff that I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was voted in in 2000.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Did he at some point then talk about what he was doing out there? What he--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Not much really. I mean, he did have anecdotes</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, like</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> talking about the Green Run,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> when they released iodine-139. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And one of the things I remember him talking about was arriving at work in a bus. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And ruthenium is something that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">can't be filtered out in the sand filters on the plutonium processing plants, and s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">o it would condense on the side of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the towers because the chimney was so tall that it would cool off and then it'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">condense on the inside of the--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, every once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">while there'd be a change of conditions and this stuff woul</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d flake off, and go out the top </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of the stack, and be like snowflakes falling on the ground, and they have a short liv</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed half-life. So the guys would </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">get off the bus. They'd have to put on gauze mask and booties and everything, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and walk into the building, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">then get decontaminated before they </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">entered the building. And then </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that was the s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tart of their eight-hour shift. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But there was no question that production was paramount. And there's no quest</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ion in my mind that what DuPont </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">did with the knowledge that was available in those days for designing the canyo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ns and the reactors, was nothing short of brilliant. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And even though people are upset with the environmental contamination--bec</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ause we basically have got five square miles</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">or five by five, 25 s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">quare miles that's contaminated from the soil to t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he groundwater out there in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">reas. But compared to what they did in Russia, which was dump it straight into the lake that fed out un</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">der </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the Arctic Circle, DuPont took advantage and was farsighted beyond belief in my </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">professional estimation. I just </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">marvel at how DuPont did on designing the reactor, and designing the canyons, and having them work safely.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You say your father didn't really</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> talk about it a whole lot--his work—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">did he ever ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">press any concerns about safety </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">at all or was he--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Never. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">n fact, DuPont was--as I grew up, and then as I worked later and they w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ere down at Savannah River, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">when I was working at Hanford--DuPont probably had the highest reputation for s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">afety of any large organization </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">in the nuclear industry. At Savannah River, if a guy climbed up a ladder, and did som</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ething stupid, and fell off and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">broke his arm at home, and he came</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> to work and they found out that</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> he had b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">een unsafe at home, then he had </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">time off. I mean</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, he</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was punished for what he did on the weekend because he w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">as not thoughtful in his safety process. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But DuPont, I held them in extremely high regard, high reputation. And they were, when you think a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">bout it, they did this for a dollar</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. They definitely were part of the war effort that sacrificed for the good</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of America. They weren't in it </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to make money or anything like that. They just were doing what they were paid to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">do. And they got out as soon as </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they could. And then they came back and did </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">second stint when they were as</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ked. They were the only company </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that the government trusted. So they built Savannah River.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I want to go back to talking about when you first arrived and you were five years old, do you remem</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ber any sort of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">first impressions that you had, or early memories of first arriving in Richland?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Oh, it was, of course, for a kid in the first grade</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> it</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> exciting because everybody was the same. They were all on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">foot, and they were all new. In fact, that kind of curiosity anecdote was on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">first</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> day as I was walking to school </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">with my mother, and we g</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ot about half way to the school. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd another woman wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">o's coming in on a side street, and she had a little boy. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd my mother just about passed out. It turned out i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t was her college roommate, who </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they hadn't seen since she graduated from college. And they both had gone thei</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r separate ways and it ended up </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that they are actually living in the house behind us. And they renewed their friends</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hip from college and it went on </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">until they both passed away.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Wow.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You mentioned that in first grade, you started at 6:00 AM. There was so many chi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ldren that was a way they could </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">serve the needs of all the families</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> with children</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. How long did that last? Did that last through first grade or--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yeah, it p</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">robably did last the first year. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ut by the time the year had</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> gone by and as a year progressed, they were </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">building hutments out alongside the school. So </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">asically, the first grade was about t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he only time I went to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">school inside of a building. And maybe the sixth grade up in Jefferson</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I went inside a b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">uilding, but the rest of time I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was always in a hutment. There were just more kids than there was space. But y</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eah, that was sparse. I mean, you didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e a car. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">The </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">only entertainment was playing b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ridge and softball. They had a very organized</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> adult softball league, so that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was the entertainment. There was no stores to buy Christmas gifts or anything. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You ordered whatever you wanted </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">out of Sears and Roebuck in July, and it got back-ordered, and y</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ou got it in the following July. But when </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Griggs opened over in Pasco that was a big thing because when I wanted a b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ike</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd when my dad bought me a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">bike, basically, h</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e had to borrow somebody's car. And we drove up to Ya</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">kima, and then he came home and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ass</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">embled it, and turned us loose. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">For kids, the basic entertainment was skating. And they had concrete tennis courts up by Lewis and Clark--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">south end of Lewis and Clark--and so that was the only surface that you could roller skate on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, because you had </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">those old clamp on roller skates that you tightened with a key that just hooked on to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> your heel and the sole of your </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">shoe. And so we were just constantly roller skating. There wasn't other entertainment. Th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ere was just recess at </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">school.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Were there any movie theaters, anything like that?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yeah, there were. There were two movie theaters. And every weekend your dad</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> gave you a dime. And you could </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">get in for a nickel, I think, and get popcorn for a nickel or something like that. Probab</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ly everything you stood in line for—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> mean everything—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">there was j</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ust a line beyond human belief. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Like when it was haircut time, the only barbers in town at that time were dow</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">n at the Allied Arts, down below </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Jackson's bar. And so, I don't know, they had two or three barbers in there. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">o Saturday morning, the boys and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">their fathers would show up to get their haircuts. And so there'd be a line of 100 kid</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s. There wouldn't be no adults. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They were all up at the bar playing pool and having a beer while the kids stood in lin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e waiting to get a haircut. But when </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Ganzel’s</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> came in was like night and day. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Even shopp</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing at the grocery store,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> you had to become friends with </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the butcher. If you didn't know </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">somebody in the grocery store, and they befriended you and gave you a heads up that, hey, there's some</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">marshmallows coming into town, why</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> you just did without. You ate a lot of canned fruit and vegetables and stuff</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">like that. And people were always doing their own chickens and putting them up. But it was just pretty </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">spartan</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> T</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey gave you a house. I don't know if my dad even paid any rent. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Basic</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ally, they gave him grass seed. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They ga</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ve him coal. We just had a real nice house. And my parents had borrowed s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">omebody's pickup, and they'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">driven up Yakima and bought some furniture, and brought it home one piece at a t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ime. But we lived down there on </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Goethals for, probably, from '44 to '49, or something like that. And then we mo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ved up on McMurray, and then we </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">left in '50 and went down to Odessa, Texas.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">What about institutions like churches? Were there churches for people to go to on Sundays in those early years?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We didn't. It wasn't because my parents didn't believe in God, it's just like we didn't go to church. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mean, we'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">have had to walk. I'm not even sure where--I honestly do not remember wher</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e the closest church would have </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">been. I'm sure there were churches</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> though</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because the government set off areas fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r parks, they set off areas for </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">schools, they set off areas for churches, very thorough.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">What about any community events that--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Not much. They had Richland Days. They had like the polio March of Dimes drives.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Actually it was probably after—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">etween, let's say, '45 and '50—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">when Camp Hanford really had gotten establishe</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d and they had moved in missile </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">people. This was just a sizable number of soldiers up there in North Richland, but </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they had much better facilities </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for entertainment--movies and all--it was just built newer. And so even though my dad didn't serve in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he service, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he had a lot of friends that had been in the service, and so we could go to movies</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> up there. And they had outside </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">entertainment tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t came in that you could go to. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We never did live out at Hanford or anything like that. My ex-father-in-law actuall</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">y came here and he lived out at </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Hanford for a while.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So you said your family then moved away in 1950, and then came back in 1960? Your father came back?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Yeah, about ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> years later he came back. I'm not too--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Did you come back at that point also?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, I was in college, so I came up here after I graduated in '61 and went into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey still had the draft at that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">time</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">so I volunteered for the Navy, and ended up flunking a hearing test and flight</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> school. So I got washed out of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">flight training. And Vietnam hadn't started to build up yet so they weren't desperate fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r pilots. So after I got out of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the Navy, I came back up here and stayed f</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">or a short while and got a job. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I had a mining</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, engineering and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> geology degree, so I got a job in Colorado in a mol</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ybdenum mine, and worked there </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for a couple of years, and decided to go back to college </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and get a degree in metallurgy. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so I went to WSU and graduated from there in '65, went down to Kaiser Steel</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> in California. By then, my dad </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had moved from working for the contractor into working for </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the AEC. Now, I'm not too sure—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">'m sure he just </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">probably just wanted me and my wife and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">their grandkids closer to them—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t anyway, he told the people in </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">personnel that I had a metallurgy degree. And one day I got a call from Wanda </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Co</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">tner</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, that was the branch chief </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">over the personnel hiring, and she asked me i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">f I'd come up for an interview. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And she said that she could give me a nice raise if I'd think about joining the A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">EC. So I ended up accepting the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">offer. And when I got my Q Clearance, I moved up here in July of '67, and worked for DOE as an individual</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> contributor over PNLs. It was a Hanford lab. PN</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">L, I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> had taken over by then. They had a number of very</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">important metallurgical programs on understanding how plutonium reacted, especially in the reactor with neutrons</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hitting it all the time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So I advanced very </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nicely. And by the early '80s, I was assistant manager for--it was then ERDA or AEC--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for all </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the compliance programs at Hanford--that'd be safety, and QA, and environmental, and security--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">so all the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">c</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ompliance structure at Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Then, probably, in about '84, I guess, I moved me over and I was assistant manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> for all the nuclear operations at Hanford. So I had the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rea for the fuel fab for N Reactor. And we still </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had N Reactor running. And FFTF </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was starting up, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">we had PUREX running and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> T Canyon. I probably had a billion dollar budget ba</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ck in the '80s just for all the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nucle</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ar operations here at the site. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So we did the first comprehensive EIS that was ever done in the Department of Energ</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">y for the tank farms, built the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">last double shell tanks that were ever built.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd how long did you work at--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I worked for about 20 years for DOE, and the AEC, and then I took an early retireme</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nt in, must've been like 1988. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So it must have bee</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">n about 21 years I worked here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So I left Hanford and went over to Idaho Falls and was as a manager over their cap</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ital construction projects. And then I got transferred to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Rocky Flats. After the FBI and EPA had shut down Rocky Flats</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, the Department of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Energy terminated the contract with the contractor. And actually they didn't even c</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ompete the contract. They just, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">literally, gave it to EG&G, which is almost unheard of, to not compete a major con</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tract. So I was in charge of—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey had shut down Rocky </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Flats operations. And so when EG&G came in, our charter was to restart the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">plant. And so I was the project </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">manager over restarting the pluto</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nium operations at Rocky Flats. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I got promoted up to being assistant general manager over environmental remediation. And th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">en I got a call from </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Lockheed down in Houston and they were trying to break into the DOE busin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ess. And so they hired about 20 </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">experienced people that had worked in and outside of DOE to put together propos</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">als to run these big contracts, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">whether it be Oak Ridge, or Rocky Flats,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> or Idaho, or Nevada Test Site. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so then I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> work</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> for Lockheed and it then became Lockheed Martin. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I worked for Lockheed from like </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">'93 to '96, and I was a general manager of one of their environmental remediation divisions.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> And I transferred </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">back up here, which was probably about the sixth or seventh time I've been throu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">gh this town. But when Lockheed </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Martin and Fluor won the Westinghouse contract in '96, I got transferred back to Ri</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">chland. So I'd made a circuitous loop that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">had gone from Richland to Idaho Falls to Rocky Flats outside of Denver, down to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Houston, the Nevada Test Site, and the back up to Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But I ended up, after I retired from Lockheed Martin, I went to work for a small b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">usiness here</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> at</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> ATL International. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They currently run the 222-S Laboratory. I was a vice president for them over all th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eir Hanford work. Eventually, I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">just decided to go out on my own. So I consulted from</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> about 2004 to the end of 2011. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And by then, I looked around and all my contacts had either died or moved to Ar</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">izona or Florida. Even today, I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">probably don't know two human beings that are still working for a living. But t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">his place has been--and DOE has been—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">absolutely a blessing to me.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I want to go back. So your family left in 1950. Then you came back in '67</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> roughly?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">No, I came back in '61.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Right.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Just for a short period of time. Just long enough to enlist in the Navy. And then w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hen I got ready to start flight </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">school, I took a hearing test. And believe it or not, the physical requirements for all branches of service are the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">same. It's just that they check people that are going to be in the Air Force or in the Navy, they just check certain</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">things closer than they do if you want to be a marine. And so I was just borderline acceptable in the hearing. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">since they had an abundance of pilots and the Vietnam </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">War hadn't escalated or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">not, they ended up giving me an </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">honorable discharge and reclassifying me as 1-Y, which is, it has to be a national e</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mergency to call you back up. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">came home and then went to Colorado and went to work in the mine.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When you came back here for the job working at Hanford, I was wonderi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ng, what ways had the community </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">changed since you were here as a child going to school?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You know what, to me</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> at a macroscopic view of the Tri-Cities, the biggest thing </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that's changed is the number of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">people. Richland is still uptown and downtown. Kennewick is striving to open up th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">at area between the two bridges </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">along the river. But the biggest thing is now there are probably three times as many people. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">There was probably </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">90,000 people between the three towns early in the '50s. And now there's probably</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> a quarter of a million people. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so the biggest changes is that the roads and streets haven't been modernized--or the stoplights--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to handle </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">triple the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">traffic. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But the wine industry obviously is a major thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because when I was a kid growi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ng up here—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> they talk about </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">termination dust storms, they were not kidding</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because I lived in eastern Co</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">lorado and my parents had lived </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">through the Dust Bowl, and I knew what dust storms looked like. And when they hit Richland, your house</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—I remember my mother, she—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">when they vacuum--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">you've</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> just</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> got</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> sweep broom and a w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ood floor, and your sweeping it </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up, and throwing it in the yard with a dust pan. But the irrigation c</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hanged all that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">There's just so much more moisture going up in the air that the dust storms a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">re few and far between. And the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">humidity has gone from like 10% or 15% probably to 35%. And the summers h</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ave gotten less extreme. When I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was a kid, it was not unusual at all for July--from the first of July to the end of July--</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to be 110 to 115 degrees. I've </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">seen it 117 degrees here. And now, just look at this last summer, we had a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">few days of 101 or 103. But the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">climate has </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mellowed out with the extremes. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Like in '48, the Columbia River froze clear across from side to side. You could dr</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ive a truck across it. The same </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">year as the big flood. So the ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tremes have gone away. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">instead of the re</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">al dips and curves a sinusoidal </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">curve, it's more shallow extremes. But the fact that they now have Meadow Spring</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s, and they have Clipper Ridge, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">and West Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of cour</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">se, has expanded from a nothing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">When I was a kid there was just basically a few people that liked to have farm</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">land lived out there. There was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">probably as many people living in Yakima as there was in Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they couldn't build houses fast </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">enough. And those that work</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ed in the 100 Areas or the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">reas, it was just as </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">close to come in from Yakima as </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it was to drive from Richland.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You talk about a number memories from your childhood, are there any othe</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r things, events, or particular </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">memories that really stand out from those early years in Richland?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You had to make your entertainment. And you had to wait in line for everything, inclu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ding getting a car. Jeez, it </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">must have been '48 before we got a car. And in the Sunday paper there was an</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> ad that said, call a number in </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Seattle, and get on a list for a Buick. And so my mother did that. And about six mont</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hs later we got a call and said </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">co</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">me pick up your car. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">We got on a train over in Pasco that just had wood benches in it, and we went over</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Snoqualmie to Seattle, and got </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this new '48 Buick, and drove it home over Snoqualmie Pass. People from all ove</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r the neighborhood were kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ogling this car because anybody else that had a car basically were driving som</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e pre-1940 model, because during </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the '40s they didn't make cars. But that was a vast improvement for us to hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e our own wheels. But self-made entertainment. When we lived up on McMurray—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of course, all these guys that came here from the '30s and '40s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> all the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">entertainment they had as they grew up as kids was self-made also. So playing pool was a big activity. And so my</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">dad bought a pool table over in Pasco, and we had it in the basement. And on</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the weekend, he and all of his </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">buddies iced down beer and played </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">kelly</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> pool all afternoon, that was the enterta</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">inment. And probably that night </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">those same guys, with their wives, had a little potluck at somebody's house and played Bridge. My parents pla</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">yed bridge </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">all the time.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I wanted to ask you, then, also about your working at Hanford. Hanford for so </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">long focused on production. You </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mentioned that production, production. At some point, of course, it shifted to cl</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">eanup. I wondered if that shift </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">impacted your work at </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">all?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, by the time I left Hanford it was still in a reduced production mode. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he writing was on the wall that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">environmental restoration was the future of Hanford, not production. We fought </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to keep N Reactor going because </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it was dual purpose. But especially when they passed the RCRA, or Resource </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Conservation Recovery Act, that </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was the first major commitment by the US Government for an environmental cleanup</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. And they sent that law, or bill, out to all </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the field offices and asked for the field offices to comment on what effect it woul</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d have on their operations. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Dixy Lee Ray wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s the commissioner at the time. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And I must've been a director of safety at the time. So we got together with the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">contractors and we labored over </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this. And fortunately, I have a knack of being able to synthesize complicated things</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> into a very concise statement. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And when we got through </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">re</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">viewing this, I wrote a letter for the manager of the fiel</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d office. And it was about this </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">long, and it simply said, this will shut down nuclear pit production fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r the United States of America. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And from that point on it was one lawsuit after another as Congress tried to extend it</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s will on the defense industry. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But at the time, like when I was a Rocky Flats, the reason they were so anxious to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">restart that plant that was the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">only </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">plant in all of DOE complex that</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> didn't have two--like there was Hanford an</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d Savannah River, there was Los </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Alamos and Livermore Design Lab. So there was a duality in everything. But when they remo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ved the pit </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">production from Hanford, instead having pit production at Savannah River and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Hanford both, they built a new </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">plant at Rocky Flats. And it was the only plant that made pit</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s. And so it was a choke point. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And when the FBI and EPA shut that plant down, basically, we had nuclear subs </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that were out in the ocean with </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">20 missiles and there was no spear point on the end of the spear. They were</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> not loaded because we were not </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">making pit</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. So that was why the defense industry was fighting with Congress on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> environmental cleanup was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">because we were not in a good defensible position nuclear-wise during th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">at Cold War years if we had the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">boomers out in the ocean that didn't have a num</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ber of warheads on top of them. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And that's why EG&G got the contract because DOE believed that they could res</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tart the plant and start making </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">these pits. So even though the environmental law was saying you should be sh</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ifting quickly to environmental </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">restoration at Rocky Flats, the headquarters people over defense programs were tellin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">g you under the table, get </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this plant running. We need these pits for the defense of America. So it was real</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> catch-22 for the management of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the Rocky Flats plant. But eventually, it became obvious that they were never go</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing to restart the plant and so </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">everybody shifted into a full environmental restoration mode.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">During your years working here at Hanford, what would you consider some of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the more challenging aspects of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">your job, the work you were doing here, and maybe some of the most rewarding aspects of you</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r work? </span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well, you know--[SIGH] I mean</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, rewarding</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> is a hard thing to define beca</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">use that was one of the primary </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">reasons I took early retirement. Let me just use Yucca Mountain as an example. When I hired into the AEC in '67,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">the United States Government was looking for a repository for nuclear fuel in Lyons, Kansas. So that was '67, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">here we are, 2013, and we're no closer to solving that national </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">problem today </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">than we were 40 years ago. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> the satisfaction that comes with mission accomplished was al</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ways very difficult to achieve.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was more of a case of frustration on my part that the grass looks greener on th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e other side of the fence. If I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was going to go any higher in DOE, I would have to go to Washington, DC</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ecause I was already an S</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ES and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">that's as high as you could go witho</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ut a congressional appointment. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But the most challenging thing was that when Alex </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> came in to be t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he manager of DOE, he brought a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">complete new, fresh environmental sensitive outlook to the plant. And so trying to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> deal with the public interface over leaking tanks—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">106</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">T was a big bump in my career. I went from a nob</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ody to a branch chief just with </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">one tank leak. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">[LAUGHTER] But</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> he w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">as very environmental conscious</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> and he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">very safety conscious. And so he </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ratcheted the whole system up, not just o</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ne notch, but numerous notches. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Because when they built the nuclear industry, they did not have safety standards for the nuclear industry</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ecause it was a brand new industry.</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> So if you looked at the operation of the uranium </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">side, then they used the safety </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">standards of a steel mill and a blast furnace to do the safety standards for </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Fernald and these other uranium </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">enrichment places. And if you look at the chemical processing in the canyon</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s, they looked to the petroleum </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">cracking industry for safety standards. And if you look to the waste disposal, whic</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">h was the operation of the tank </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">farms and the burial grounds, it had the same basic safety standards and the int</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">erest as a commercial landfill. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so it wasn't until the nuclear Navy was born and Rickover installed a complet</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ely different safety philosophy </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">because he was going to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">have 200, or 300, or 400 sailor—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">lives were dependent on everything </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">functioning perfectly. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And Alex </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was bright enough and young enough to recognize that. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d he brought that standard into Hanford. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So there was just a real crash program on upgrading the operational procedures</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> for tank farms and other waste </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">disposals. Skin </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">contaminations were accepted as—</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">like a guy working on your ca</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r, he accepts the fact that his hands are going to get greasy. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ut Alex didn't accept that. He said, you know, we'r</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e going to have zero accidents. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And we're going to have zero skin contaminations. We're going to be open with t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">he public on any of these tank leaks. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And the problem was we didn't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> really</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> the skill to measure how these tanks w</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ere doing—whether we're losing </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">material or not losing material. And even though you could measure the depth,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> the interest of whether it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">unacceptable to leak</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was not there. And the reason for that was that when the fi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rst tanks were built, they were built in 12. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So there's four rows of three</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> and the separation process was simply a settling proces</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s. So the waste would come </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">into the first tank</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> and fill up, and the solids would drift to the bottom. And then it'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> overflow into the second tank, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">another lighter batch of solids. And then it would flow into the third tank, and more solids would fall </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">out. Then </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it would flow into the ground. And so if you're pu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tting stuff in the ground for ten or 15 years, and using nine </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">exchange properties of the soil to capture the radionuclides</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> then what's the big dea</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">l about a tank leaking a little extra waste?</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> You've already put a billion gallons of stuff into the soil, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">what's another 100,000 gallons? </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So that was the mentality that Alex faced with the contractors when he came to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> Hanford. I give him credit. He </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">single-handedly changed that. And he took on the challenge to do the very first</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> environmental impact statement </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">on tank waste for the whole agency. He was the guinea pig. He was the front runner</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">, or the blazer, for the DOE on environmental issues. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And so I honestly think that Hanford, even though</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because of the design of the plan</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ts</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> there was no way to retrofit </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">these plants to not discharge stuff to the soil, but there was a way to monitor it b</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">etter and be more acutely aware </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of occurrence</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s that you didn't want to occur. W</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hether it was stuff leaking on th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e ground on top of the tank, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">whether it was stuff leaking into the ground through the bottom of the tank.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So what time period are you talking about here?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">This would have been in late '70s up to, probably, '87. And Mike Lawrence came in '87.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">And it's Alex </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Yes, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span class="SpellingError SCX78204124">Fremling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">How do you spell the last name?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">F-R-E-M-L-I-N-G.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So that's when you noticed a shift definitely</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> taking place</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">No question. I was a student of, that instead of resisting these changes, I e</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mbraced these changes and I was </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rewarded for that. But th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e mentality of the DOE—or</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> it was ERDA at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> time, but the mentality of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">workers in ERDA were no different than the mentality in the contractors. I mean, we'</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">d been doing it this way for 30 years, why are we changing? H</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">e conducted the first operational readiness re</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">view probably in the nation for start</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up nuclear facilities.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">How were you able to change that mentality I guess into the--</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">You know what, I'd say, probably, through the award-fee process. It's through the money. When I first go</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t here, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">contractors had contracts, but there was never any real evaluation of whether th</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ey deserved their fee or didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">deserve their fee. So once we instituted an award-fee process in which we itemi</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">zed the areas for improvement, then </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">quantified A,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">B,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">C or D or F, you could then quantify. If they had $10 million fee that's u</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">p for grabs for this quarter or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">this six month period, you could quantify how well they did to meet those goal</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. So i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t was very intense and it was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">steep learning curve, but it produced results. And we changed contractors</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> too.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hmm, right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">So this was when you would have been in charge of compliance programs?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">First, yeah. After I was a branch chief, I was an assistant division director. Basically </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">all of my career was in nuclear </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">operations, especially with the tank farms. And even though I moved over to be the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">director of safety, and then on </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">to be the system manager for compliance, you were just viewing operations from</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> an independent standpoint. You </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">didn't direct nuclear operations, but you did appraisals, and you did audits, and yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">u did oversight, and you graded </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">a contractor on his performance independent from operations.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Was it during your time</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> there, I mean</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> at some point of course there were a lo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t of questions raised about the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tanks. And in term</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> of the public</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> questions about tanks leaking and that sort of thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. Did you have to deal with any </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of that sort of thing?</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Listen,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I spent—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">f I wasn't making presentations to the public or defending our actions to the public, I was doing so in fro</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nt </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">of Congress. There was constant barrage and it was difficult to commu</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nicate because by this time the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">environmental support groups were springing up to put </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">pressure on DOE to perform and to clean up and to </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">accelerate. And, of course, you control certain things, but you don't control your</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> budget. Congress controls your </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">budget. And so it was difficult a</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">t best, and it was contentious. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">It's constantly contentious because it was like I was speaking in English and t</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hey were listening in Greek. We </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">couldn't communicate</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> because they were just totally upset with what the gove</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rnment had done to end the war. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">They forg</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ot that what </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">was the end result</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> was stop the war and save millions of lives in the invasion of Japan. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they had forgotten that. And it was just on the bad things that have been done to the environment. And I'd be the</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">first to agree to that--I don't think that in </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">hindsight</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> i</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">f you went back and re-ran it ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> ti</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mes in hindsight, I don't think </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">anything would have changed</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ecause the same pressure to beat the Germ</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ans to the nuclear bomb and the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">same pressure to end the war in the Pacific would not change. And so you'd only</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> have the capability to do what </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">your technology was advanced enough to do at that time and place.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I wonder if there's anything that you haven't talked about, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">r I haven't asked about yet, either in terms of </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">your years growing up here as a young child, or your father</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">'s work, or your work at Hanford, that you'd like to talk </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">about, or think it would be important to talk about.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">I would just simply say that I think that the people and the contractors in the gove</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">rnment, as well as contractors, </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">have always given 100% to do the right thing. And they don't get much praise. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">nd they are constantly vilified </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">because they're missing milestones and stuff like that. But there is just some ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tremely technically challenging </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">work to be done out there. It's been a flywheel for this site since 1943, and it's go</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ing to continue out probably to 2075. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">But they'll never clean the site up, and they'll never walk away from it. They'll h</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ave some 25-square-</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">mile pad out </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">there that has all kinds of markings on it, don't drill here. But they're making tremen</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">dous strides in cleaning up the </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">groundwater and removing the stuff along the river. I never dreamed in my wilde</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">st dreams that they could clean </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">up all the burial grounds and trenches alo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">ng the river and the buildings. </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Each one of those reactors had the facilities enough to run a small city, and now all that's </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">left is a cube. You could </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">paint dots on it or something like rolling dice across the prairie. But I just thin</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">k it's been remarkable how much </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">they've cleaned up and how safely they've done it. You don't ever read of anybo</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">dy getting killed out there, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">maimed out there, and they're still using a lot of heavy equipment. The safety s</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">tandards are extremely high and </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">it</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">’</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">s part of the reward, the carrot in front of the donkey. If you're safe and have a </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">good safety record and you make </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">progress, you get your fee.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> I</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> want to</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"> thank you very much</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">—</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: --</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">for coming and talking to us today and sharing y</span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">our memories and experiences. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX78204124"><span class="TextRun SCX78204124"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Rhoades</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX78204124">Great, thank you very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX78204124"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:09:30
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
180 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
300 Area
100 Area
Z Plant
N Reactor
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Fast Flux Test Facility
B Reactor
234-5 Building
222-S Laboratory
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1967-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1967-1988
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Rhoades, Paul
Cotner, Wanda
Ray, Dixy
Lawrence, Mike
Fremling, Alex
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Rhoades
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Jack Rhoades conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/16/2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
200 Area
222-S Laboratory
234-5 building
300 Area
B Reactor
Fast Flux Test Facility
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.
Kennewick (Wash.)
N Reactor
Pasco (Wash.)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX
Richland (Wash.)
Z Plant
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd3a31e8f531859f8cf4173f7e777e4cc.jpg
2a38262e6623571282c597a9daca931b
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7c6061bb308050f0219a8db9b6ffcf03.mp4
98f9b422199605caf34957b60917b70d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Petersen, Gary
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Petersen_Gary</p>
<p>Gary Petersen: Sure. This is easy.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: All right, let’s see.</p>
<p>Petersen: Hair's combed, eyebrows are trimmed.</p>
<p>Man One: Yeah, you sure do look pretty.</p>
<p>Petersen: Actually I'd rather watch her than—</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Petersen: Is that--</p>
<p>Bauman: Unfortunately, you're supposed to look at me, actually.</p>
<p>Petersen: Oh. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I’m sure. All right. Does that work there, on the mic?</p>
<p>Woman One: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Bauman: It’s okay?</p>
<p>Man Two: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay.</p>
<p>Man One: We can start whenever you’re ready.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. All set to go?</p>
<p>Woman one: All set.</p>
<p>Bauman: Excellent. All right. Well, Gary, I think we're ready to go.</p>
<p>Petersen: Fire away.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. Well, let's start first by having you say your name and then spell it.</p>
<p>Petersen: Okay. It's Gary Peterson G-A-R-Y P-E-T-E-R-S-E-N. That's important, the E.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yes. You're right. My name's Robert Bauman and today's date is June 5<sup>th</sup> of 2014. And we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So, Gary, let's start with the beginning of your time here. Can you tell us about when you came to Hanford and Tri-Cities, what brought you here?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, that's a good question. [LAUGHTER] Okay. Actually, I came first in 1960, January, 1960, with the Nike Ajax Missile site at the top of Rattlesnake Mountain. And I was temporarily assigned up there--well I was assigned up there, but three times a day we'd get on the back of a two and a half ton truck and go down to the mess hall down below. And I knew I was going to die, so I asked be transferred to any place and I got sent to Korea. I said never come back to the Tri-Cities, but as you can see, I did. The second time, though, is probably the one you're after. I decided after the military that I needed to get an education, so I went to Washington State University and got a Communications degree with a minor in Electrical Engineering. I had a job with Ford Motor Company all lined up, but I wasn't too enthused about going to Detroit. That was January of 1965. And so my college professor, Chuck Cole said, gee, there's a new company opening up in Tri-Cities. Why don't you stop by? So I stopped by on a Friday, went to work on Monday with Battelle, which became Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. So there's how I got here.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, that first time, in 1960, why did you want to transfer? Was it the ride down the mountain?</p>
<p>Petersen: Three times a day with an 18-year-old driving, and you drop 2,000 feet, and at the bottom there's a 90 degree corner, 16 degree grade, and it was January. I knew that one of these was going to go off the road. So I said I've got to get out of here. So I put in request for transfer, and I transferred. Just like that. To Korea.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. During the first time here in 1960, did you spend any time in town?</p>
<p>Petersen: We did, much different than--actually most of the servicemen, and there were quite a few of us at the four batteries, would go to--there was a bowling alley and a dance hall over in Kennewick, just off of Clearwater that was surrounded by fruit trees. Now all of that's gone and it's all businesses and so on. Clearwater's full, but at that time, it was all orchards. It was pretty nice.</p>
<p>Bauman: What were your impressions of the place, other than not liking that ride down the mountain?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, you have to remember it was about like probably what the first military people saw when they came by here in December, January of 1943. I mean it was cold, it was brown. No trees. It was a barren place, even in 1959. So I can imagine what Colonel Mathias thought when first flew over this place. From the top of Rattlesnake, as you can imagine, you saw the entire Hanford site, so it was pretty barren and bleak.</p>
<p>Bauman: Going back a little farther, where had you lived before this? Where did you grow up?</p>
<p>Petersen: I graduated from Womack High School, which is up the Okanagan. I lived on an apple orchard. Again I was used to being around trees, and you come to the desert--I can imagine, any time between 1943 and 1959, ‘60, ‘61, ‘62, this was a pretty barren place.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so in 1965, you took the job up at Battelle.</p>
<p>Petersen: Yep.</p>
<p>Bauman: What was the job?</p>
<p>Petersen: The job to start with was a communications person. I became the manager of the news of service. The advantage I had was I got everywhere on the Hanford site, except the tank farms. I've stayed away from the tank farms successfully for a lot of years. But I spent a lot of time out on the hundred F reactor, which was the biology and aquatic biology site at the time. I got all over the site, including back up to the top of Rattlesnake Mountain a couple of times. So it was really pretty nice.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you came back then, in '65, where did you live?</p>
<p>Petersen: Lived originally in what were called the stilt apartments. They're on Jadwin. They've been fixed up since, so you would never know that they were stilt. Stilt, meaning that they actually had posts that held up the second floor. The posts were the garage for the people who lived there. But they're not far from the Chevron station, kind of in North Richland. Lived there for quite a while. And then the last of the homes that were built prior to 1958 went for sale. Those were called the Richland Village Homes. And there were two-bedroom and three-bedroom, either one-car garage attached or unattached. And they went up for sale for—I bought one—three-bedroom with a single car garage attached—for $6,200. Pretty good buy at the time, and I ended up paying less than I was for rent in the stilt apartments. I thought was pretty good deal.</p>
<p>Bauman: What was the community of Richland like at the time in the mid-1960s?</p>
<p>Petersen: The community was still just finding its way out of what I call the federal government ownership. In 1958, the city became an incorporated city again. And it was 1958 that the federal government to city back over to itself. And so between '58 and '65, it was a city that was still trying to find its way as a city, other than as a federal funded city. It was unique in that aspect. Battelle was well the first companies, too, to come in here—although it had a government contract, it was one of the few to come in here and be from the outside. Man, up until that point it was DuPont and then General Electric and then in 1965 is when the AEC decided to diversify the Hanford contract. They split it up into eight pieces, and so Battelle was one of those pieces. The others were HEHF and the operations and so on. There's been 35 contractors in here since 1965, and Battelle was one of the early ones.</p>
<p>Bauman: Now, before your first arrival here in the 1960, the Ajax site, were you familiar with Hanford? Did you know what sort of work that was going on in Hanford?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, I did only because I spent some time up at Fairchild Air Force Base. They also had a Nike Ajax missile site. They were trying to transfer some people from Fairchild to Hanford. And so I learned a little bit about what Hanford was. The nice thing at the time is everybody--all the military guys said, oh, you're going to love the Tri-Cities because it's way warmer than Spokane. So I thought, sure, and then you come down in January and it was cold, at the top Rattlesnake you get winds up to a hundred miles an hour. It was not one of your pleasure spots at the time, but the view was great. View was great.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, you knew something about Hanford at that point.</p>
<p>Petersen: Knew that it was a military installation, federal installation. Knew that they made the material for the atomic bomb. Knew that there was a reason for the Nike Ajax missile site to be there, to protect the site. So, yes, that much we were pretty clear on, and the military took their job very seriously. There was a no fly zone over Hanford. No commercial flights, no flights of any kind other than military itself. It was pretty well protected. And on top of Rattlesnake, I might just add, that was the radar installation. It was at the highest point, so the radar reached a long way. You could see planes coming well, well in advance of them ever getting through to Hanford. What was interesting is sometimes we would notify Fairchild or McChord, and you'd actually have fighter jets intercept planes that wouldn't veer off. That was a unique feature of what you did on top of the mountain. The other sites, they had radar installations, but that one was pretty unique. That was pretty good.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. So in 1965 when you came and were working in communications, what sort of responsibilities did you have there?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, one of the assignments that was unique was to take tours to indoctrinate all new staff members, and that was for everywhere on the site. Over the years, I've taken literally thousands of people on tours over the site. At the time, it didn't seem like it was that great of a job to be able to take people around the site, explain what the reactors were, what the 100 Area, 200 Area, 300 Area, those kind of things. But as it turned out, the longer I did it the more I realized that the work that was going on here was critical. The Cold War, was still fairly active, so it became important to me to make sure that people understood what kinds of things went on here. It wasn't until later that I became interested in what happened pre-1943. As you keep tromping across the land, you start saying, oh, there were other things here too. But it was pretty good.</p>
<p>Bauman: Those site tours for new employees, were they able to go pretty much everywhere on site?</p>
<p>Petersen: We could go everywhere except into the area that had the plutonium, which is now known as the Plutonium Finishing Plant. Where there was restricted classified, the real concern was both tritium and plutonium. You couldn’t say the word tritium back in those days. You could plutonium, because they knew it was the material for the plutonium bomb, Fat Man, came from here. But tritium was something nobody talked about. And so those areas were restricted and that was mostly in the tank farm area. That was were chemical separations took place, so we stay away from those. It was okay by me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, that does raise—obviously, security, safety were very important at Hanford. In what ways did security at Hanford impact your job? That's obviously one way. There's certain areas you couldn't go, right?</p>
<p>Petersen: There were replaces you couldn't go. The badges--all of the badges at that time were designated to which areas you could or couldn't go. It was readily identifiable on your badge whether you were allowed into say, the 300 Area or the 100 Areas with reactors, or the 200 Area. And within them there were other exclusion zones, too. There were restrictions placed in each of those locations. Typically somebody that worked in 100 Area wouldn't ever be allowed into the 300 Area, or into the 200 Areas. The reactor areas were the 100 Area, the 300 Area was the research area, and the 200 Area was chemical separation. They were pretty segregated as to where you could go.</p>
<p>Bauman: In communications you mentioned that you couldn't say the word tritium. Were there other things you couldn't talk about or write about?</p>
<p>Petersen: You couldn't talk about quantities. As a matter of fact, there was a real restriction early on. One of the things that I found in the process of working in communication, there were nine production reactors around the Columbia River on the horn. In the summertime in particular there were periods where all nine reactors would be working. Sounds unique when you think about it today, but in the summertime June, July, August they actually measured the temperature of the Columbia River before the first reactor and after the last reactor. As I recall, if the Columbia River temperature was raised by close to ten degrees, then they would have to start shutting down the reactors, because the flow back into the Columbia River was that warm coming from reactor. In order to protect the fish and things in the river, then they really monitored the river very carefully. The reason I point that out is you also never talked about how much water went through those reactors because there was a fear that the Soviet Union could figure out the quantities of production simply by measuring the amount of water that went through those reactors, or the temperature increase from one point to another. It sounds odd today, but that was one of the strictures of what you could and couldn't talk about. It was a pretty quick--they were very careful about quantities.</p>
<p>Bauman: And I assume that you had to, when you were hired, had to go through security clearance process--?</p>
<p>Petersen: Q clearances were standard. There was one level above that that was called CRYPTO for a while. I don't know what happened on those, but that was for individuals who got around most of the site. They were a unique feature at that time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Where was your office located? Where did you work out of?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well my office moved all over. Originally it was in the old army headquarters—and this is in 1965. Battelle, when they first came in here, moved into a building that was called 3201. Later they changed it to the old office building—OSB was what it was called, old office building. But that was before the Battelle buildings were built, which became known as the Sand Castle. We lived and worked from January of 1965 until probably the spring of '66 before we moved into the new Battelle-owned buildings, the Sand Castle, which are on Battelle Boulevard now. And then later I moved out into the 300 area. I was in and out of 100F area. Those kind of places. So, yeah. How we doing?</p>
<p>Bauman: You knew the site well.</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, except for the 200 Area. That was a real restricted area, and maintained that for quite a number of years.</p>
<p>Bauman: You talked about giving tours to new employees, sort of the indoctrination to the site. How about for dignitaries, government officials, did you do that? How about the general public?</p>
<p>Petersen: The general public rarely, if never, I don't think we ever did that, but government official Catherine May was the first congresswoman I took through. She was a congresswoman from 8th District. I took Senator Magnuson through. Later Tom Foley, so quite a number of those over the years. In later years we started getting some foreign visitors, as well. But early years congressional officers, congressional staff, the governor. Dan—Governor—the name just few out of my head. The governor of the State of Washington, Dan--?</p>
<p>Bauman: Evans.</p>
<p>Petersen: Evans. Thank you. He later became also a senator from the state. He was a first governor that I helped escort across the site. Most of those, it was unique to be able to take visitors like that around the area.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do any of those tours especially stand out? Were any officials particularly interested or excited about it? Are there any sort of strange stories from that?</p>
<p>Petersen: [LAUGHTER] Well, Senator Magnuson was a unique individual. He actually came out quite a number of times. And one of those times we were in the 300 Area, and I was working at the time for Westinghouse, Westinghouse Hanford Company. He came out to actually, quote, break the ground on FFTF. We were in a building at the time, a four story office building in the 300 Area, and I'll never forget, I was assigned to make sure he got up to the podium. His vehicle came in front the building, and then drove around to the back of the building, so I ran back and met Magnuson back there. I'd known him before. Frankly, honestly, he was drunk as a skunk. I didn't think he was going to be able to make it. He says, just get me to the podium and I'll be fine. I didn't think it was possible. But he got up, he gave an excellent speech. A little wobbly, but I don't think most people knew that he had been drinking. This was 4:00 in the afternoon or so, and then he left. I might point out, it was about a year later, 1971, that President Nixon came out. There was quite a scramble, because at that time there were no buildings for Westinghouse. Westinghouse was kind of spread all over, so when the advance team for Nixon came out, they decided that the proper place would be the Battelle buildings. This sounds odd, but there was a real infighting between, at that time, Atomic Energy Commission, Westinghouse Hanford Company, and Battelle over what signs would be displayed where. Because Westinghouse was interested in making sure—this was for FFTF, and that was a Westinghouse project. On the front of the podium, of course, was the President's seal. He spoke out in front of the buildings, but behind that—or around that, Westinghouse came in the night before and put up Westinghouse circle W signs around the site. Just an example of my boss at the time, who was one of the vice presidents, said I don't care how you do it, but I want to sign that says Battelle that they can't take down and will be located visibly for all the cameras. So we stole a door off of one of the rooms in the Battelle building. I don't know if you've been the buildings or not, but they're very tall doors. They're nine-foot-tall doors. So we actually, that night, took one of the doors off, put Battelle on it, and put it up on the front of the building up high so it was right behind the podium. Westinghouse--we had to do that after midnight. That door actually was at the entrance to Battelle for—I don’t know—the next 20 years. They finally took it down not long ago. But that was relative to President Nixon showing up. That was pretty good.</p>
<p>Bauman: Stealing and moving doors.</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, everybody wanted their name and with the President of the United States, and so that's what we did.</p>
<p>Bauman: Did you get the chance to meet him when he came?</p>
<p>Petersen: I did. One of the things I still—my family still values—is Pat Nixon was along with him. My oldest daughter was one year old, and because of what I was doing, we managed to get my wife and daughter into what was called the VIP area of the presentation and so on. She didn't get to shake hands with President Nixon, but Pat Nixon came by and actually held my daughter for a brief minute. We got a picture of it and it is still on the family someplace.</p>
<p>Bauman: How about foreign dignitaries were there any--</p>
<p>Petersen: Foreign dignitaries, those came later, too, after the SALT agreements. On the signing of the SALT agreements, there was real concern both on the part of Russia, Soviet Union, and the United States for how much materials were still being made or not made. There were a number of Russian visitors who came over to verify which reactors were still operating, which ones weren't, how much material was still going through the canyon facilities, those kind of things. We started for the first time, seeing some of the senior Russian officials come through. The one that still strikes me and my memory is Admiral Sarkisov. He was head of the Russian Navy, and he came out both to see at that point the start of the reactor vessels from the submarines. Today, we have about 124 submarine and cruiser missile reactor cores out on site, but at that point I want to say we probably only had eight or ten, maybe 11, 12, something like that. But he also wanted to see those and verify that the submarines had actually been decommissioned, cut up, and so on. We toured both the reactor areas and the submarine vessel area. Of course, that's where my story about FMEF comes from, too. There was a building out there that was built for FFTF called FMEF, Fuel Material Examination Facility. On the way out to the site, Admiral Sarkisov asked, what is in that building. I told him it was a shut down building. We went out and toured the site. We toured the top of Rattlesnake Mountain with him, too, which was pretty unique. But we toured the site and coming back in, he asked if he could see that building, inside the building. So I called security. It was a closed building—it was locked up. And so they met in they let us in. As we came out, Admiral Sarkisov says, well now I can move the satellite. I asked what he was talking about. And he said, well, we've been watching that building since it was completed, and we couldn't believe the United States would build a building of that size, that massive size, and then not use it. So we knew that was connected underground some other place, because we never saw any cars come. So the Russians actually thought that that building was so secret that they had an underground entrance that came from someplace else. But he saw it was simply not used. And it is unique building. It's a billion dollar building.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's a great story. When you were giving the tour with him, was there an interpreter present when he was--</p>
<p>Petersen: There was always an interpreter. As a matter of fact, one from both State Department for us, for the people who were the escorts, and then he had his interpreters, too, so there was both. The group was probably ten people or so: site manager, and then others of that--there was people from state--you didn't let them wander around by themselves. Pretty unique.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, you said you've been connected to Hanford since 1965--</p>
<p>Petersen: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Bauman: I'm sure you’ve--</p>
<p>Petersen: Almost 50 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: --been privy to a lot of interesting events and stories. So I’m going to ask you to tell me some of those, but there's one in particular I know, and that's the alligator story.</p>
<p>Petersen: Yeah, the alligator story is good.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right, you can talk about that.</p>
<p>Petersen: The alligator’s pretty unique. The aquatic biology was located in 100-F Area. That's the last reactor in the downstream flow of the Columbia. So they studied the impacts of the reactors on fish, miniature swine, beagle dogs, they had African pygmy goats, but one of them—Merc Gillis was a doctor of veterinary medicine—graduate of WSU, I might add. He said that he wanted to study the uptake of strontium-90 in a thick skinned animal, because strontium is bone seeker or thick skin. So he convinced the manager of the site, of biology site, that we ought to buy some alligators. The story varies depending on who you're talking to. Bill Bair will give you one side of the story, because he was one of the managers out there. I'll give you another one. But I know for a fact at least six alligators were purchased for the studio strontium-90 uptake. Bill Bair says there were more, but I still wonder about that because I was in and out of there a lot. But these alligators were about two and a half feet long and they put them in a retention pen in the Columbia River, but it was also where the effluent from the F Reactor came back. The water would pass through the reactor, put into retention basin for a short period, and then put back in the river, so it was warmer than the river. That's part of the point. It also was the first place where the water returned to the river, so that was where the strontium would be taken up by the alligators. That's the theory. Well, two months, three months after they put the alligators into this retention pond, there was a big storm. The pen came down and all six alligators got out. This was under the AEC at the time, too—they managed to catch five, but they missed one. It was months later that a fisherman over in Ringgold, downstream, fishing caught this last alligator. Of course, he was trying to tell friends about it, and on and on. But, he had to protect the proof, so he took to a taxidermist office in Pasco and had the thing stuffed. Well, one of the technicians from aquatic biology was walking by the taxidermist shop, saw this stuffed alligator. So he ran in, grabbed the alligator, and ran out, which now makes it more or less of a public story. This was in 1963, before I got here. But the story comes around. Anyway, AEC tried to bury that story. No, we've never had an alligator out there. We don't know anything about alligators. They actually, I think, had it classified for quite some time. But when I got here in '65, my boss was a guy named George Dalen and I had been here for about a year. He says, it's time to give the alligator back. I had no idea what he was talking about, but this is where I entered the story. So he pulls out this stuffed alligator about like this, and he said it was, I think the guy's name was Aaron, he said track him down, because he was the fisherman. He paid to have it stuffed, and we're going to give the alligator back. We'll just let the story go away. So I did. I found the man. Unfortunately, the <em>Tri-City Herald</em> ran a story about this big about the alligator, and once every eight or ten years, they use one of these clips when they do the previous in history. DOE came in and they claimed to know nothing about any alligators, ever, ever, ever. It was in the technical library that they finally found the documents that showed not only did they have alligators, but the other five, they moved from 100-F when they had a fire out there, down to the 300 Area where life sciences built a new building. So I know that there were six alligators, five, one stuffed, and Bill Bair says that there were a few more than that, but I don't know that. That's the alligator story. Better told over beer, I might add, but not bad.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Are there any other stories during your time at Hanford--incidents, events, things that you were involved in in your job [INAUDIBLE]?</p>
<p>Petersen: The biggest one is one that I think this community has forgotten completely, and that's Apollo 11. Apollo 11 was the first lunar landing. When Apollo 11 came back to the moon and splashed down in the Pacific, it turned out that in 329 Building, there was a room that was used for very low level radiation detection. It was a room made of pre-World War II battleship steel. It was used for a lot of reasons for measuring very small quantities of radiation. Battelle actually put in a bid with NASA to study some of the first lunar materials that came back. So they had splash down in the Pacific, and we had a man named Dr. Lou Rancitelli, who actually waited in Houston for those materials to be flown from the Pacific, off of the aircraft carrier, back to Houston. He had a briefcase—big briefcase—chained to his wrist, where he brought those back through Seattle and then to the Hanford site. He arrived here about one in the morning, I might add. There were only a few people--Doctor Perkins, myself, a couple of others, who were waiting. We kept this all secret, because we weren't supposed to tell news media or anybody else that this was going on. But Lou got the materials back, and the next day we started petitioning NASA to allow us to display those moon rocks here in this community. The second place in the whole world that moon rocks were displayed was the Federal Building here in Richland. We managed to display them for three days, and there were lines four abreast around the federal building to look at those rocks. They'd go by and ooh and aah because it came from the moon. But almost to a person, everybody says, looks just about exactly like what we see out here in the desert. You couldn't tell them apart. But the fact that we had those lunar materials, I mean that was--wherever you were, you watched TV of the landing on the moon in 1969. That was a huge event. It was after that that Nixon came to town, but hardly anybody recalls that at all. It's just a forgotten piece of history, but at the time, it was pretty big. It was almost--and I missed it—it was almost like when President Kennedy came out to dedicate the Hanford Generating Project attached to N reactor, and that happened in 1963, just before I got here. Big events.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. Any other happenings or stories that stand out in your mind?</p>
<p>Petersen: I wasn't a part of what was called the Green Run. Others will have to tell you about the Green Run. But one of the stories I covered, and that's one of the only ones that I was out near the tank farms. Atmospheric sciences is out between the 200 East and 200 West. It has a 300-foot-tall atmospheric tower at that site. They've all been removed today, but going downwind from that 300-foot-tall tower were, number one, four or five 200-foot-tall towers and then five or six or seven 100-foot-tall towers. They would regularly release very small quantities of radioactive iodine, most usually put into colored smoke so they could track both the visual as well as radiation and see how long it took to go downwind and disperse. Just to show you how we were at the time, the photographer and I who were covering that piece as a story thought, well not only did we want to shoot it so you can see it go, but get underneath it so you could watch it as it--It's not a very smart thing to do today, but at the time it seemed like a pretty good idea to be able to watch that stuff as it drifted and deposited. So, we did the story. AEC never let us release it, but we kept the story internally for quite a number of years. I don't know what happened to it now, but those kind of things went on fairly often. You need to know where radiation goes, and that was a piece of it.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you know roughly the time period that would have been?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well, it would have been probably '68 or '69, someplace in there. There has been more study on the Hanford site--atmospheric studies, geologic studies, temperature swings, those kind of things, than almost anywhere in the United States. They really tracked how the weather changed, how the wind moved, what the ground flow is from rain, those kind of things. It was--going to atmospheric physics lab in the 200 Area was an experience. At one point I managed to take a TV crew up, because if you climb a 300-foot-tall tower in the middle of Hanford, you could see just about everything. It turned out that we got the film crew up, they took the pictures, and then security looked at the pictures and said you have pictures of classified areas within those pictures, so they took a whole video. All of the climbing up and down was for naught. So, a pretty good place.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned earlier that when you first came and started giving tours, you really didn't know much about pre-'43 events.</p>
<p>Petersen: True.</p>
<p>Bauman: When did you become more aware the communities that were out there and start learning more about that?</p>
<p>Petersen: I had the real fortunate opportunity to meet Bill Rickard, and I hope you've interviewed him. Bill is a gentleman of the first order, but Bill has probably walked that site more than any single person. One of the early things—I got acquainted with Bill. Bill ended up taking me on walks across parts of Hanford. The first time that he took me out was to Rattlesnake Springs, which is up a gully on the face of Rattlesnake Mountain. It's just an experience to go with Bill, and that was mostly on—we call a bugs and bunnies--but it was mostly what was all of nature that's out there: deer, elk, coyotes, even fish and so on. But Bill knows that site probably better than any other single person. So every chance I ever got to go out with Bill, anywhere, that's where you first got the sense that there was something here pre-1943. That's when I first saw the irrigation piping. That's where you first saw the home site--we've had two major fires across that site, and both of them ended up and taking out things and were still left. There was a home up by a Rattlesnake Springs that actually still had furniture in it. It was burned down in the first fire. So Bill knew all that stuff, and so the experience of going out with Bill was really unique. I wouldn't trade it for anything. That's where I started thinking, well—actually, Bill led me to a person named Annette--I can't think of it.</p>
<p>Bauman: Heriford?</p>
<p>Petersen: Heriford. Annette is the one who—she was in the class that would have graduated from Hanford High School out there on site. She worked for Battelle, PNL at the time. I got real acquainted with Annette, and then I helped Annette have the first reunion of her class out at that old Hanford School and that would have been, my gosh, maybe '78 or so. 1977, '78. And Annette could tell stories about what the old Hanford town was like and White Bluffs, and how rich and agricultural area it was. She was an amazing lady. It's too bad that she passed away quite some time ago. She was a real historian. You talk to those, and all of a sudden it becomes real. She's the first one that I talked to, not Bill Rickard, but Annette Heriford that that explained that some of the people had less than two weeks' notice to move off that site. You think about it and you say, that's just not possible. But it happened. Then you start feeling for the people who—there were roughly 2,000—the numbers change, depending again on who you talk to. The one on one side, the federal side, says there's only 1,500 people out there. But if you look at the historical records, you know that there were probably about 2,100—kids and the whole works. Some of the early census didn't include some of the children, or the sheep herders that moved back and forth across the site. In talking with Annette, you finally got the feeling that was something else here that happened before 1943. That's what got my attention. Good that you know her name, too.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Why did you think that was important, then, for people to know about?</p>
<p>Petersen: It was probably a little later than that that I also became acquainted with some of the Native Americans. I've got to know some of those over time, too. The relationship of the people who lived out there, both with Native Americans and the site—I’ll change directions for a minute, too. My family at that point lived in Wenatchee, so when I first came in 1965, in order to get to Wenatchee from here, you had two choices. You'd either go around through Pasco and up through Moses Lake and back, or you could go out to Vernita where there was a ferry, part time, and it didn't work at night. You'd ride the ferry and go across. That was prior to the bridge being built and so on. As you go out there, and see the ferry, you'd also see the structure that now I know is Bruggemann Warehouse, and you'd meet some of the people who were either former residents or Native Americans. Then you stopped and you waited for the ferry. You got a chance to talk to some of the people as you went back and forth. There was a lot of discussion about what was this site prior to. But growing from Vernita to Vantage that was pre-Mattawa days. Now I can visualize what Hanford must have been, because Hanford was an agricultural area, prior to—it looked like Mattawa today does. When I first started driving up there, there were no orchards between Vernita and Vantage. Now you look, there's orchards and vineyards and all kinds of stuff at Mattawa. Hanford was that, but it was that before 1943. You have to visualize what it was like, and it was amazing. Hanford really has a perfect weather pattern for early produce, and it was one of the first in the state to produce and all kinds of things--peaches and pears and cherries and walnuts, all kinds of stuff. How we doing? These guys need a break. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: You started in '65. You're now at TRIDEC. At what point did you move to TRIDEC? I know you worked also at Westinghouse and [INAUDIBLE].</p>
<p>Petersen: My wife kids around and says I can't hold a job. That's the point. I typically work for a company for about seven years and then move companies. So I worked for Battelle for a while, then Westinghouse for a while, then what was called WPPSS, Washington Public Power Supply System for a while. But I retired from Battelle in 2002, and the Hanford manager for the site was Sam Volpentest. Sam was 99 years old at the time, and his doctor, who's also my doctor ended up saying, Sam you can't fly to Washington, DC anymore and go after money. I'd known Sam since '65, I met him in '65, and Sam called and said, Gary, I know you retired, but would you come back to work part time, ten hours a week, easy job go to Washington, DC for me and that's it. He had the nerve to die at 101. He lived for about a year after he hired me to do those trips. And when he passed on, as a result TRIDEC at the time said, well, we need somebody full time to do this. I wasn't real interested, so they said we'll make it part time job. You only have to work 25, 30 hours a week. It hasn't been that since. Away we go. It's nice because if they want to fire me, I'd love it. I'll go and play golf. It's a good deal.</p>
<p>Bauman: Can you talk about Sam Volpentest a little bit? Obviously, a very important figure through most of the Tri-Cities. Can you talk about his significance a little bit?</p>
<p>Petersen: Would be happy to. Sam was an incredible politician. He never ran for office that I know of, but he knew politics from the top to the bottom. He was friends with everybody from Governor Rosellini to Senator Magnuson, Senator Jackson, Speaker of the House, Tom Foley. He knew politics. If you read the book so that was just written about Sam, it has a lot of facts, but until you knew Sam--and I was fortunate. Another part of my assignment, when I first got here in '65, TRIDEC was called TRICNIC. So it had a different name. It was Tri-City Nuclear Industrial Council. And Sam was not a writer. As a matter of fact, everything he did was longhand, very pretty penmanship, but he couldn't put things down on a typewriter for taking to Washington, DC and so on. Battelle, one of their offers to the community was to provide somebody who could write to Sam to write their newsletters, to write their congressional letters, to write things. I got to know Sam when he was in a little office on the Parkway. Later he moved into the Hanford house. Sam was a mover. Most of the ideas that Sam accomplished didn't start with Sam, but he would hear an idea and he'd say, that sounds good. We're going to do that. For example, he started TRICNIC/TRIDEC in 1963. In 1963—you've got to go back in time—every road in and out of the community was two lanes. There was one airline only at the time, and Sam knew that in 1963 the government, AEC, was starting to shut down the reactors. Sam and Glen Lee and Bob Philip formed TRICNIC and they did that to try and offset, with federal dollars, the coming shut down of the production mission at Hanford. In the process, they also determined that in order to develop a community long range, you had to have transportation. Even though most people think that Sam concentrated on Hanford, he actually--and Glen Lee and Bob Philip—all really focused on how do we make the Tri-Cities bigger and better than it is? Four-lane highway was first, but airlines were second, and the third one that really was not well-known at all was education. And they went after a Center for Graduate Study for this community, which became WSU Tri-Cities. They decided that you had all of this intellectual property at the laboratory at Hanford, but you needed something for their families. I don't think it was a sit down and let's do a vision and do all these things. I think it came in pieces, where they actually decided they wanted certain things. Sometimes the fallout was better than what they expected. As an example, the breeder reactor program, which started in 1968, '69, was going to be a major, major new AEC mission. Sam went after the breeder reactor program, and he didn't get it. Savannah River did, what was called Clinch River Breeder Reactor. But he got the secondary issue, which was FFTF, which is a small test reactor that led to. As it turns out, over time the administration killed the Clinch River Breeder Reactor, but they kept FFTF going. Or, another example is we lost out on a mission that Sam really wanted that I think was called SMEVs—and maybe I'll explain it, but maybe not. And we lost that one, too, and so Sam went to Magnuson and said, we need something. Give us something. A couple days later, the story goes, Magnuson called up and said well we had a federal building planned for Montana or Wyoming or something, but they really don't want it. How about we put a federal building in the Tri-Cities. That's how this Federal Building came about. That was Sam. Sam was tenacious. He either liked you, or he didn't like you. There were people he wouldn't let in his office, period, but others-- Phenomenal memory. He could pick up a phone and call congressmen or senators from other states without ever looking the number up. He would pick up the phone--he never believed in talking to staff. He would talk to Senator Magnuson. He would talk to Chet Holifield. He would call them up personally and say I need this or I need that. He was incredible.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's a great story. How was he able to have such persuasive powers with Magnuson, Scoop Jackson, a senator also, Tom Foley, right, these US Senators? Tri-Cities is still fairly small, population-wise. Was it his tenacity?</p>
<p>Petersen: Well. It was his tenacity, but it all started with Governor Rosellini. And the fact that Sam, for a period before he came here, was in the Italian something club in Seattle, which was Rosellini, Magnuson was an honorary member. He, Sam, belonged to the Seattle club, which is still there, downtown Seattle. He made politically--he recognized that you needed political connections no matter what. When he came here and then he had the backing of Glen Lee<em>, Tri-City Herald</em>, the combination of those two—Sam took every advantage he could find. His advantage with the <em>Tri-City Herald</em> was, if he thought we needed something, then Glen Lee would support it editorially, and they would go after the politicians collectively and get it. Sam liked to take credit and he did many, many things, but it was really the combination that he put together that was pretty unique—partnerships. It took him a long time to play what I call both sides of the aisle. Typically he was a Democrat. He was a solid, solid Democrat. But he started realizing that there were Republicans that you had to deal with as well, and he needed to work with them over time, and he did. He built friendships across the whole gamut. And active, I mean, he was amazing. If you ever got a chance to go—Sam was small, but if you ever got a chance to go to Washington, DC with Sam, it was an experience. It was unbelievable. He knew where he was going. He didn't have to look at a map. He walked everywhere. I'll say he was a cheapskate, but he was a penny pincher. If a hotel cost $110 a night, he'd find one where you’d get it for $109. Sam was that kind of an individual. But he knew The Hill like nobody else I've ever seen. He knew the underground parts of The Hill, too. He didn't like to get out in the weather, so there's a whole both subway system and hallways between the House side the Capitol and the Senate side. Sam knew all of those underground links, and he'd just take off through those tunnels and go from one side of The Hill to the other side of The Hill. Amazing.</p>
<p>Bauman: And he lived a long life, so he had--</p>
<p>Petersen: 101.</p>
<p>Bauman: --connections with those politicians--</p>
<p>Petersen: Long period of time. He recognized, too, that he was outliving his supporters. He outlived Magnuson, he outlived Jackson. The one that was constant was Rosellini and Rosellini and he were the same age. And so Rosellini lived to 100, as well. Pretty good.</p>
<p>Bauman: What about Glen Lee? What sort of role--what was he like?</p>
<p>Petersen: Glen Lee was a bulldog. He's a big, imposing man. The thing that I think the <em>Tri-City Herald</em> should have done was kept his office as a mausoleum. His office was a piece of history by itself. He had pictures with Presidents, he had pictures with governors, he had memorabilia from all over the place. If you asked Sam and Glen the same question, you'd get two similar, but different answers. Who caused something to happen? I'll give you one story that is really unique. How did Battelle get here? Sam had a vision of how Battelle came; Glen Lee had a vision of how Battelle came. Fred Albaugh, one of the lab directors had a story about how Battelle came to be here. And Sherwood Fawcett, who became the first director of the lab, had a different story. I believe they're all correct, but they're different. Each one takes credit in a different way, and so Sam claims full credit for bringing Battelle here. He was at a meeting in New York and he knew that the lab was going to be bid out. He ran into Burke Thomas, who was the president of Battelle, and Sherwood Fawcett, and sold them on the idea coming. That's Sam's story. If you listened to Sherwood Fawcett, Sherwood Fawcett said that the president of the company actually was a graduate of the University of Washington. He wanted to open the lab somewhere in the state of Washington. Burke Thomas found out that this lab was going to be bids, so Burke told Sherwood go and bid on that and win it. Two different sides of the same story. I don't know which one is right.</p>
<p>Bauman: You've been connected in Hanford for quite a few years now, and seen a lot changes take place. Obviously, one of the key changes was the mission of the place itself, from production to clean up. I'm wondering if you can talk about that a little bit in terms of how you saw that and the impact that had on the area of Hanford itself?</p>
<p>Petersen: I'm happy to. I'm going to connect it back to Sam a little bit. One of the changes that was major was going from AEC, Atomic Energy Commission, to an organization for a short period called ERDA, which I forget now what that stands for. They were only and operation for a year and a half or so, and now to DOE. Most of the new missions for the Hanford site didn't come from within the federal government, they came from the community. As the production reactors were being shut down, Sam and Glen in particular saw that we needed to find new missions for Hanford. One of the first ones was a Hanford Generating Plant, which was operated by Washington Public Power Supply System, but attached to N Reactor. N Reactor was the first dual purpose reactor in the United States, and the vision was it was going to last a long time because it was the newest one and it produced 800 megawatts of power. Sam and Glen said, let's get the HGP here, because the United States wouldn't dare shut down a reactor that's producing 800 megawatts of power, so that was one the early ones. But as you started to see the reactors come down, they looked for other missions. One of the first ones was a thing called BWIP, which is--everything has an acronym, but a Basalt Waste Isolation Project, which was actually in competition with both Nevada and Texas to become the nation's repository. BWIP, that's a misnomer, what I just said. BWIP was actually the study of the geology of basalt for a repository, but it wasn't going to be the repository. It was a study site. If it worked, if it showed that it could work, then there would have been some other place on the Hanford site they would have dug deep down into the basalt and made a repository. Deaf Smith, Nevada, Yucca Mountain, and here were one of the visions of Sam and Glen and wanted to become the repository for the nation. All of a sudden there was a move in Congress that said we're going to select one and it's going to be Yucca Mountain. And so shut the other two down. And actually BWIP, the Basalt Waste Isolation Project, was shut down within a period of two to four weeks. There were hundreds of people who worked out there. When that shut down, Sam then went after that Clinch River Breeder Reactor program. The breeder reactor program ended up getting FFTF so there was certain things that happened in a sequence that he was always looking for that new mission, whatever it was. One example, the one that Sam loved to do, and I stumble on every time, is Sam also heard that MIT and some others were going after this deep space exploration project. There were two sides to that, at the time. One was SNAP, which is the Space Nuclear Application Program and the second side was what became LIGO, the Laser Interferometry Gravitational-Wave Observatory. I can only do that once. But Sam loved that one because he could spit it out. He had that one memorized and he loved to go into a congressional office and say—rather than LIGO. So Sam is the one that really pushed for that project as well. Always, they had a vision of trying to capture new missions for Hanford, and it was never really—the push never came from DOE or ERDA or AEC after the original mission. They all came from the community. And we’re in competition with Oak Ridge, Idaho Falls, Savannah River, for those kind of things.</p>
<p>Bauman: Another one of the changes that's taken place at Hanford since I've been here is there are a lot fewer buildings on site now than there were. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit, and what that means, you think, in terms of the history.</p>
<p>Petersen: I'll start lightly and say it's a conspiracy. The conspiracy is every building that I've ever worked in out there, with the exception of FFTF, has been torn down. [LAUGHTER] So I think they're out to get me. At the top of Rattlesnake Mountain were the Nike Ajax building, they've been torn down, and buildings and then the 300 Areas that I had offices in. What we're seeing today, though, is the success of cleanup, particularly along the river corridor. I will say that the Department of Energy and the contractors have done an amazing job of cleaning up this site. When you look at the changes, particularly in the 300 Area or the reactors themselves, the change is phenomenal. I forget, I think there's something like 280 buildings have been taken off the site, and the landscape has changed. The big, tall smokestacks are gone. The water tanks that were out there are gone. The skyline has changed drastically. And they've done it, too, with an intent to try and return it to original habitat. Most of it is what's called brownfields, but they have done a tremendous job of actually recovering a lot of the vegetation the original look of the land, with the exception that this was agricultural area, so it's different. But that's a huge, huge change. And most of that's been in the last five years. It's a different thing today than it was, 1965. You just see it all over the place.</p>
<p>Bauman: You've been giving tours for years. I can't imagine how many tours you've led.</p>
<p>Petersen: I don't know. A lot.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Do you have a favorite place on the site of the different places you stopped for tours or maybe when you went out with Bill Rickard? Is there a place that you really--?</p>
<p>Petersen: The B Reactor is unique, unique, unique. There is no place like B Reactor. When you go in to B Reactor and you realize that 50,000 people were brought from all over the United States, and some foreign countries, they didn't know what they were building. They didn't have computers. They didn't have portable radios. They didn't have portable phones. And they, start to finish, built B Reactor in 11 months. That's just plain incredible. When you look at the craftsmanship of doing that, the best analogy is still from Jim Albaugh, who was the head of the Boeing program for 787s. We took him on a tour of B Reactor and he came out and he said, this would be like trying to bring in 50,000 people, have them build their own community first, because they had to have a place to live and eat and so on, and then tell them build a 787, but you've got no computers to do it with. And you've got to buy all the materials and manufacture them. So B Reactor is unique, unique. I can't say enough about B Reactor. But there's a flip side, too, and that is I've also become enamored with pre-1943. When what I think about that, it's really the city of White Bluffs, and the fact that there's still a ferry landing out there, there's a bank building out there, there's sidewalks out there. You go out and when you're alone, you go out by yourself, you can just visualize this community that used to exist. Then all of a sudden, they're moved away and 50,000 people come in in a period of weeks, just a very short period of time. They have to build a town, and then they start building things like B Reactor. And to know is all done, really, under the direction of a 36-year-old individual and a Corps of Engineers, it's unbelievable. I know a lot of cocky 36-year-olds, but I don't know anybody like Franklin Matthias to do the things he did with 50,000 people. Unbelievable. My favorite place is B Reactor. It's got to be right there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, I think you and I could just go on talking for hours, probably.</p>
<p>Petersen: [LAUGHTER] I think we're close.</p>
<p>Bauman: But I do wonder, is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you want to talk about, maybe that I haven't asked you about. Any stories, or anything that's really important that you want to mention?</p>
<p>Petersen: There's a piece that has yet to be done, Bob, and that piece I've talked to several people about. That piece is trying to capture either the individuals or the families of the people who were here prior to 1943. I think it is extremely important for us as a community to find those people, identify them, bring them together, allow them back out on the site for the first time. I took the Bruggemann family back out. That was the first time--did this about three years ago. That was the first time they had been back since 1943, and to go--it's like anybody's heritage. If you have a chance to go back and see where your parents or your grandparents--or you, as a child, grew up--the vision is different. Things are smaller, but—the feel of the place. We need to find those people and give them credibility and standing so that they have the opportunity to see their heritage. It turns out that exactly the same time as people were being moved off Hanford, the Japanese were being moved off of Bainbridge Island. Exactly the same time. And they all had to be off by August of 1943. In the case of the Japanese, the federal government has actually done some very nice things. They helped some of the families regain their land. They put up displays of all kinds to say this is what happened. But here at Hanford, of those families still are scattered around the United States, and they have very little to remember the site that they knew by. When you think about--and I'll use the Bruggemanns because I know them the best--you think about Bruggemanns who had 1,400--they had 640 acres, but they leased more—and they had sheep, they had cattle, they had a working staff of something like ten to 20 people on and off, up and down. They were given two weeks to get rid of all that stuff and move. We've got to get that. We've got to capture that. We've got to help them. That's the piece. How’d we do? Did you guys go to sleep back there?</p>
<p>Man two: Huh?</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Well thanks very much, Gary, for sharing your stories. Like I said, I'm sure you and I could go on talking for quite a while.</p>
<p>Petersen: I recognize, too, you're really after the people who were here from pre-'63, but '63 to '65 or so. But I'm a Johnny-come-lately, so I look at it different.</p>
<p>Bauman: You know a lot of the history of the place, the stories.</p>
<p>Petersen: There's pieces that are really pretty fun. There's some of the stories, honestly, that you probably will never hear, because they have different twists to them. Some point, not with an audience, I will tell you there's another side to the Apollo 11 moon rocks that got here. It's a very unique story that only a couple people know, how they actually came to the site. And it was tough.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thanks so much, Gary.</p>
<p>Petersen: Yeah.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:08:37
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
260 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
B Reactor
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
N Reactor
200 East Area
200 West Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1960-2014
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca1965-2014
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
May, Catherine
Foley, Tom
Nixon, Pat
Bair, William (Bill)
Rickard, Bill
Volpentest, Sam
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gary Petersen
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Gary Petersen conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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2014-6-5
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
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2016-07-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
100 Area
200 Area
200 East Area
200 West Area
300 Area
B Reactor
DuPont
General Electric
N Reactor
Plutonium Finishing Plant
Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005
Washington Public Power Supply System (WOOPS)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3e4aaec73e6f6c9ba18a36475c893e05.jpg
bde01b50c49fdd19de9845aaa9a2a017
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fab86fcd9bafe1ad87121451929b5f8b0.mp4
bf4cb3c2a0e804cfdad85f1d48db7166
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Laura Arata
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leonard Peters
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Peters_Leonard</span></span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></strong></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Leonard </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Leonard Peters. L-E-O-N-A-R-D P-E-T-E-R-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">S.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. It's November 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX237872738">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">already</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--2013, and we're </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State Uni</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">versity Tri-Cities. So I wonder </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">if we could start, if you could tell us a little bit about how </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">your family came to Hanford and where you were from.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I was born in Denver in August of '43. My father came out in June or July of '43 from Denver.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And so my mom, myself, and my brother were there in Denver, and when I was two months</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">old we</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> came out with another family, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">he Carl Eckert family. And it was my mom, Mrs. Eckert,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">their daughter</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--who was </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">about my age</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and my brothers. So five of us came out in a car in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">October of '43. And my dad was working out here. And so that's how we came out, was in an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">old car.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And what was your father doing at Ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">nford?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">He was a truck driver. He drove for Remington Arms in Denver, who was DuPont, and he also</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">worked for Bechtel up in Alaska. And he came down and went back to Denver and was driving,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">heard about this place. And if you'd like a very interesting story--</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237872738">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Always.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">He was driving for an Army officer. A colonel or something, I'm not sure. Kind of a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I'll say</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">chauffeur, but it wasn't really a chauffeur. But my dad had heard about this place. And he</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">asked his</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I'll say colonel</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">about it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And very few people knew about it. But this colonel says,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> I can't tell you anything about it, but if</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you've heard of heavy water, it has something to do with heavy water.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Of course my dad, heavy water didn't mean anything to him. But you know, hindsight. It's kind</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">of interesting to me this colonel knew a little bit about what was going on here. As big a secret</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">as it was, not that many people knew. But he had some idea of what was going on. I found</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that very interesting.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And how long d</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">id your father work at the Hanford site?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">From '43 until he retired in '73.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Okay, well, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">e'll come back to that. I want to ask you just a few questions about the area. Obviously you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">were very, very young</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I'm sorry. He passed away in '73. He retired in '67.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. I'll have more questions for you.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Do you remember, growin</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">g up, what sort of housing </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you lived i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">n, what the situation was like?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">My first memory was an A house, 1520 Thayer. We moved in there about 1945. So that's my</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">first memory, though we lived many places before that, as my dad's Q clearance bears out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But my memory goes back to the A house in 1945.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Did yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">u live there for quite a while?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Lived there until around '56, '57.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And could you describe that house a little bit, for anyone w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ho doesn't know what an A house is?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">An A house is a duplex, two-story. You have neighbors literally right next door to you. It was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">three-bedroom, all upstairs. And of course back then there was no air conditioning, and it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">would get hot in the summertime. I can literally remember s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ummers, 109 to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">110, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">112 degrees. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the only air conditioning was a swamp cooler. So it was pretty miserable, but yet you </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">think about it beca</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">use that's just the way it was. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">The government literally furnished everything, from throw rugs to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> table, chairs. I mean literally </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">everything. Coal. We had a coal-burning furnace, and like on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ce a month or so on, they would </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">deliver coal. And you had to make sure there was a coal bin that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">had slats in it, and you had to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">make sure that the slats were in, because if you forgot to put t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">he slats in you'd have coal all over the basement floor. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And so that was kind of interesting. My dad, every morning,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> would have to get up and stoke </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the fire and get it going in wintertime, because we used </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">to have some pretty bad winters </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">compared to today. And so that was, again, ju</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">st part of living in this area. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Dust storms. You've heard of the termination w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">inds. The wind would blow and the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">curtains would go back and forth and just wave in the breeze, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ith all the windows closed. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you'd have a quarter of an inch of dust on the windowsills a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">nd everything. But there again, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that's just the way it w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">as. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I can remember one story</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">my wife tells that w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">hen her m</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">other came out with her and her </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">brother, met at the train station, and the father was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">re to pick them up. There was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">windstorm right then. And her first words were "Sherman, get me a ticket bac</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">k home." And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">they ended up dying here, and buried here. And I know my dad, he swore he would never</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—he </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">wanted to go back to Colorado, but again, he was buried here and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> lived here all the rest of his life. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But what e</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">lse can I say on the government?</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Everyth</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ing—y</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ou know, I've heard of people</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—we </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">never did do it, but people get tired of a chair or something, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">'d break it, call housing. They </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">would need another chair, and they'd come out and replace the chair. And if you had</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—back </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">then they had fuses, as opposed to breakers. Blow a fus</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">e, call housing, they'd send an </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">electrician out to change the fuse for you. I mean, it was pretty amazing, really. And it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">good quality furniture.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Cool. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about growing up in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Richland in the '40s and '50s, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">sort of what the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">community was like at that time?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">It was a fairly small town, of course. I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and this is just my memory</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was about</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">probably maybe 23,000 people, was all. Something like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And it was truly a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Leave It t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">o Beaver</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> era. People laugh at that, but that's exactly what it was,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">because if you stop and think about it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">in order to live in Richland, you had to work out in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">area. In order to work out in the area, you needed clearance. And it was not unusual to have</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">someone knock at the door and be an FBI agent investigating someone or something. I mean,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was very controlled.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And so there was no crime to speak of. Nickel and dime stuff. But there was one murder, in all</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">those years. They never did find the killer. But no, we'd play out all night and folks wouldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">think a thing about it. That’</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">s just the way it was. And in the summertime, like I said, as hot</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">as it was, all the windows</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> and doors would be wide open and w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ouldn't think a thing about it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And people kind of knew one another. Not that you knew everybody, but that small a town and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">everyone working out there. Everyone rode the bus, so there was a camaraderie with not only</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">where you worked but also on the buses. And people I think really did try and watch out for</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">one another. But no, growing up, it was great.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">One</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> fun story. We used to hooky-bob. You know what that is?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I don't.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Okay, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">hat we'd do in the wintertime when the roads were snowy and icy. You'd hide behind a bush,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and as a car went by</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> you ran out and grabbed the bumper and had them drag you around.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And that was a lot of fun. That was one of the winter sports.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But it was kind of interesting. I can remember, newspaper front page showed a bus with a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">glove on it. The story was, it was a hooky-bobber and his hand was wet and it froze to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">bumper, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">make a long story short, it was on the dangers of hooky-bobbing. But it just</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">happens that the guy that that glove belonged to graduated a couple years ahead of me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Name was Jim Crum, who is now an attorney for the US government.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But no, it was a fun time. I mea</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">n, Friday night shows </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was wall-to-wall kids. Very seldom</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was there a fight or anything. We'd hang out at the Spudnut Shop, or there was another place</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">called Tim's.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Someone that ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">d a car would drive around the U</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ptown area about 30 times, just looking for</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">gals or whatever. I mean, it was an </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">American Graffiti </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">time. Have you seen American Graffiti?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yes, sir.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">You see that, and every person in there</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Hey, that was so-and-so;</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> that was so-and-so. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">mean, it was so accurate to our high school days. It was a good time to grow up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Wintertime, of course, we had Christmas tree forts, and if there was snow on the ground we'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">have snow forts and choose up sides and have snowball fights hiding behind our snow forts.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We would, if there was no snow</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">or even if there was </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">snow after Christmas</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">build Christmas</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">tree forts. Stack them up and have a roof on it, even sleep out in it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But if a neighbor down the street</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you know, if they had a Christmas tree fort, about one or</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">two in the morning we'd sneak down and steal all their trees. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">d we'd have a bigger fort then. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We would sleep out a lot in the summertime, because it was hot. I can reme</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">mber we would </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">sleep out maybe 10 o'clock at night or so. There were still orchards, cherry orchards in town.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Up on Van Giesen. We lived just around the corner on Thayer.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We'd get up, go down there and steal cherries. We'd steal quite a few cherries. Then the next</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">day we'd sell them house to house.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">What else was there? The buses were a big part. The buses were fun, because there was two</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">groups. They were both run by the government, but there was what they called the city local,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">which took people from point A to point B as far as downtown and uptown, different places.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Then there was the outer area buses that took workers to work and brought them home. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there was two different</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">not bus companies, but groups of drivers that drove for each group.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But not only hooky-bobbing, but it was always fun to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">as buses passed</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">snowball th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">em, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">throw snowballs at th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">em. Just fun things.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Some good winter sports.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Could you talk a little bit more about these</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you mentioned Fr</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">iday night shows, and also the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Spudnut </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Shop. Could you describe those</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> a little bit</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I mean, everyone went to them. All the kids went to them. And you know, you're talking</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the '50s, where rock and roll was just coming in. I wrote a piece one time on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I really think that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">we were born at a nice time, because we can remember big bands, we can remember that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">type of music and how rock and roll came in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And of course parents didn't like rock and roll at all. It was evil, and all this. But a lot of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">movies, some of the movi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">es, had rock and roll stars.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> I can remember people</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">dancing in the aisles while the movie was on. Things like that. I can remember one gal was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">dancing what they used to call a dirty bop. They ended up kicking her out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> But no, there was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">dancing and hooting and hollering.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Before the Uptown Theater opened was the Village Theater. And that was when we were</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">younger, but that's when they showed the serials, whether it be Superman or Whip Wilson or</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">whomever. But every Saturday we'd go to the show. There'd be a cartoon as well as one or</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">two double feature.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">That's back</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">we were young, but a fun thing then, I guess, was to have your popcorn boxes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">They were boxes at the time</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. You'd flatten them and throw th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">em and make a shadow on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">screen. That was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> big deal.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But the Village Theater was so strange because it was all kids, basically. Because the Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Theater, which is now The Players, was more the adults. The Village Theater was for little</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">kids. But you would walk down the aisles, and was a kind of carpeting, and you'd stick,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">stick, stick, stick. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">don't think they ever cleaned it. Pop spilled on it, candy bars, and everything</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">else. That was fun.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Then they did build the Uptown Theater, and that was more adult movies. But on Friday night,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was lot of science fiction. That's where you saw Frankenstein, Dracula, The </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Wolfman</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">, and all</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that. Then the midnight shows had really neat</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">they'd have a midnight show, and we wouldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">get home until three in the morning, but no big </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">deal. Y</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ou'd walk home. No big deal.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I don't know if you can do it today, but there'd be half a dozen of your friends walking home</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">with you, just having a good time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But the Friday night shows</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I started smoking quite early. I don't smoke now. But I can</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">remember, for mowing the lawn and peeling t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">he taters and things that, I’d get</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> $1 a week</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">allowance. And with that dollar I could buy a pack of cigarettes, which would last me a week,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">get into the show, and have like a dime left over. So I mean, a dollar, I was in fat city.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Do you remember how much a movie cost, about that time?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">First ones I can remember was $0.11 or $0.12, and then it went to $0.20. And I think during</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">my high school days, if I remember right, it was probably $0.35, something like that. I'm not</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">All right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I'm fascinated by the Spudnut Shop and Tim's. C</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">an you describe those a little?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Well, Tim's was where Dr. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Chavla</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> placed his</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> kind of cadd</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">y-cornered from the graveyard,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the old graveyard. And it was a nice place. A fireplace in it and everything. That's where the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">kids hung out. And it wasn't really a pizza parlor, but it was kind of a pizza parlor sandwich</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">place.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">It was our high school days, and it closed, I'm not sure exactly when, but became Einan's</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Funeral Home. It went from the restaurant to Einan's Funeral Home. And then Einan's, of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">course, moved out on the bypass.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But the Spudnut shop, it's bigger now than it was. It used to just be just a few booths. But I can</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">remember Spudnuts were, let's say</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">, $0.10. And for a Spudnut ala mode</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that was a Spudnut</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">with soft ice cream on it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that was $0.15. And if you had $0.15 for that, you was in pretty good</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">shape, because we didn't have money like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And there was another place just two doors down from that that was the Fission Chips. But it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was interesting the way they spelled fission. It was fission, like nuclear. It was Fission Chips.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">You can see some old pictures of the Spudnut shop, and just a couple doors down, you'll see</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the Fission Chips. But we'd hang out in the Spudnut Shop before the movie, and then maybe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">go there after the movie. And that's just where everyone hung out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">When we had a car later, more in our high school years, we hung out at a place called Skip's.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">It was where Les Schwab is now. That was kind of the hangout there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I don't know if you want this on there. It's not very nice. But Skip's, there was a young girl</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">worked there with a cleft palate. One the guys that we kind of ran with, he had a cleft palate</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">also. He was about three years older than me. But he pulled in there, him and friends, and she</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">said in her cleft palate</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> way</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">, ,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ay</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> I help you? He said yeah, give me a such and such. And she got</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">mad, y</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ou don't have to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">make fun of me!</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Because she though he was just making fun of her.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Kind of a sad story, but kind of humorous also.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">The movies was a big part of life. Of course, swimming. We used to swim in the Yakima a lot.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And the old pool, what we used to call the big pool, down in what's now Howard Amon Park</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">used to be Riverside Park</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there was a swimming pool there. And the flood of '48, '47-'48, it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">flooded the park. And so they done away with that pool and built the present one.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">That flood was quite a deal. I can remember going</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the b</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ridge</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> was out</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">going out of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Richland, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">they had a pontoon bridge. And that causeway wasn't there then. It was just flat. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I thought that was so neat. We was going across the bridge, and you see pontoons all the way</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">across it with lumber to drive on. And that always impressed me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Down around </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Gowen</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> and things, I can remember the basements flooded from that flood. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was quite a flood. That's when they built the dam or dike around Richland and Kennewick</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and so on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> The—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I was thinking of something else, and lost it. But no, the flood was quite an event. I worked with</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">a guy named Ralph Schafer, who had a private pilot's license, and they hired him as a bus</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">driver. But they let him go from bus driving long enough, because the only way to the airport at</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the time was to fly from Richland to Pasco. So they hired him to ferry people to the Pasco</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">airport in his private plane, because basically there was no way out of Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> until they put</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that pontoon bridge in.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I wonder if you could talk about</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">obviously you went through school here. D</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">o you have any </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">memories</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there were also some residents that were here pr</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ior to 1943, that were still in </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">school here, that were moved off of their family lands. Did yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">u go to school with anybody who had memories of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> you recall?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Not to my knowledge. You hear all kinds of stories and things that I don't know. I know I've</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">heard that one family</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">or some people, I'll say</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">whe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">n they were, quote, kicked out</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> of White</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Bluff</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Hanford area, they moved to Prosser, Sunnyside, somewhere up there, and swore they'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">never set foot in Richland. And whether that's true or not, I don't know. But I know there's hard</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">feelings over it, rightfully so.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But no, I don't know of anyone. I know we had a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> lot of construction workers in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> trailer parks in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">north Richland. There was a big trailer park, and they had an elementary school out there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">John Ball. And once they got all the houses built that they were going to build, I guess, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">closed the trailer park and closed John Ball and had them all into town.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But I can remember living on Thayer, going to school at Old </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Sacky</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Sacaj</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">awea, the Old</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Sacky</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that for some reason, for two-three days they sent me to Spalding. I had to walk to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">school, which was maybe three, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">four blocks, five blocks. I can remember big piles of dirt,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">having to climb over them to get to school. And the reason for that was they were building the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ranch houses at that time. So I was probably first grade, I'm guessing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So they were still building in the lat</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">e </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">'40s, early '50s. In fact, Bauer</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Days and the Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Village came later, after the letter houses. But school</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">no, I honestly can't remember any kids</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">No problem. We're here to get your memories, so. A bunch of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">other things I want to ask you. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">One thing, you said your fathe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">r worked in Hanford until '67.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">He retired.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">He retired in '67. So he was working in the area when Pres</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ident Kennedy came, in 1963. Do </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ave any memories of that event?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">No. I was in the Navy then, so no. I know my wife said that she went out to see him. And there</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">were so many people you could hardly see him, but she went out to it. But no, I got out of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Navy in October</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> '63. I was on a train back to Denver to visit relatives.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">It's kind of sad. I was sitting in the club car playing cards with strangers, and the porter came</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">a black fella</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">says,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> [EMOTIONAL]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the President's been shot. And we all</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">aww, go on, he's pulling</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> our leg,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">he's joking</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. Then I says, you don't joke about something like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We were somewhere around Wyoming on the train, and then they was able to get a radio</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">station over the PA or whatever it was. Sure enough, a little bit later</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that he had died. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that's how I learned of it. I'll never forget that train ride. Got to Denver, and it was just strange.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Of course. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And we're righ</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">t on the anniversary of it now.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah. Yeah. But my dad, I don't know if he went to see him or not. I mean, he was a dyed-in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the-wool Democrat. He came out of the Depression. He was born in '03, so he'd been through</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">a lot. I can remember him saying that he'd vote for a yellow dog before he'd vote for a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Republican. He was the old Democrat.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But he did vote for on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">e Republican. That was John Dam</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">, who was running for county</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">commissioner. They were personal friends. He said that's the only Republican he'd ever voted</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">for.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">One exception.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">did you work at Hanford at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">You did. So could y</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ou start filling us in on that a little?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I worked 40 years out there. Hired on '65. And luckily </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">my dad was still working, so we </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">overlapped. We were both drivers. And I started out as a l</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">aborer, though they called them </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">servicemen</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">basically a laborer. And I got set up to bus driver. And in '61, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">had a layoff. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">could have stayed, but I thought, man, le</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">t's see what else is out there. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And I went and worked for Battelle. I was with Battelle f</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">or about 13 years in inhalation </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">toxicology. Long-term study. Plutonium, curium, americium studies on dogs. And in about '84 I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">quit Battelle and went back to transportation, because money.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> You know that all your </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">college </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">folks know that biology is not real high-paying, unless you're </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">a PhD or something. But a BS in biology's not much. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But no, I really enjoyed that. In fact, when McCluskey's glo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ve box blew up, about 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">reas </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">were exposed to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I forget if it was curium or americium, but the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">re hadn't been a lot of studies </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">on those. And like I said, I was working in inhalation toxicolo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">gy, and we got two or three big </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">contracts right after that to study the health effects </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">of curium and americium through inhalation. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">He was an amazing man, because I worked with </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">PhDs. Immunologists, veterinaries,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">hematologists. You name it, we had the discipline there. Pathologists. And they </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">didn't give him </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">six months to live, with what he got. And he ended up living pro</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">bably 20 years or better. It is </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">quite an amazing story. You can go on the internet and look up</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Atomic Man, and his story's in </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> actually interviewed the gentleman who was in charge </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">of the cleanup, cleaning up his hospital room.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah. I don't know if it was this guy I worked with, what we called a radiation monitor. Now</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">they're HPTs or something. But he was with him, scrubbing him and things. His name was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Larry Belt. He'd be a good interview for you.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I worked with Larry for a number of years. He was our radiation monitor when we exposed</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">dogs and so on. But he said, you can't believe the pain this man was in. He said, we had to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">literally scrub him with brushes, because he had stuff embedded in his face and so on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Terrible. He says, submerge him and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> scrub him. No, Larry Belt could tell some stories about it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But back to my job. I quit Battelle for financial reasons and went back to driving. Drove a bus</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">for a lot of years. They shut the bus system down, and I went and worked driving a truck, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">drove ERDF trucks hau</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ling the solid waste from out around</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the river and so on. Did that for a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">number of years and retired. I taught HAZMAT classes for the last abou</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">t ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> years.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But buses were the fun job. A lot of stories there. One of our drivers named Carl Adcock was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">driving down Delafield, taking the day shift home</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">so </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">about four or five in the afternoon</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">a little girl was standing out in the middle of the street playing. About five, six years old.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Stopped his bus, pulled the brake,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> got out and spanked her butt, get out of here!</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Got back in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the bus, and the passengers were just</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">what are you doing? You could get in trouble for that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And it was his daughter.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But no, we've had people have epileptic seizures on the bus. And there's all sorts of things like</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that. A lot of stories.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">You must </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">see a little bit of everything.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Oh, yeah. We had poker games, bridge games, on the buses. They had cardboard</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">tables. Four people would sit down, put</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> their table between the aisles and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> play cards. They had a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">bridge game going from 100F, which was where the animals were before they built 300</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">animal life sciences 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">rea</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">but they had a bridge game that was going steady for at least</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">30, 35 years.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I mean, it was different </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">people. You know, someone would retire, someone else would take</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">their place. But it started out at 100F at lunch break and then on the bus, and it continued.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">When we were at 300 they were still playing. Again, it was different players, but it was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">same game.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Wow. There's something I wanted to ask you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> about</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. Returning back to when you worked in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">inhalation toxicology at Battelle, did you work with the smoking beagles?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yes. That was my first job, was smoking.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We just interviewed Vanis Daniels--</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Oh, yeah. I know Vanis.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--last week, who worked with the smoking beagles. Can you describe for us the process of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">getting the beagles to smoke two packs a day?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Well, the hard part's lighting '</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">em</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. No, the reason for the study</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> as I understood it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> was uranium</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">miners were dying early, and they wanted to know why. Because it could be cigarette smoke--because most of them were smokers</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">uranium ore dust or it could be radon daughters.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And so we had a group of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I forget now. 70 dogs, 60. Something like that. And 10 of would</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">receive smoke only, cigarette smoke only. They had a table, kind of a horseshoe. The mask fit</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">over their muzzle with a cigarette in there, and like every seventh or tenth breath</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> a little gadget</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">would open and their breath would suck in the smoke.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But then ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> of them would receive uranium ore dust and radon daughters. There was a large</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">chamber that held ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> dogs around it, and up in the top there was a grinder thing that would</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">grind the ore dust and sprinkle it down in. I mean, it wasn't noticeable, it wasn't thick, but it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">in there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And then we</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> had radon. I think it was water bubbled through it that would give the radon gas,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and it would get into the cha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">mber. And then we had another ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> that would receive cig</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">arette</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and the radon.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And then a control group that didn't receive anything. They were called sham. You'd bring</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">them in, go through all the same routine, but they wouldn't receive anything. And just see what</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the effects were.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And it was a lifespan study, so you'd look at the dosage and how long they lived and what</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">affected them the most. So that's basically what it was.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">One story I heard</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">probably true</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was that the Russians said that our limits were too high,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">should be lower. So that maybe prompted it, I don't know. Then after that when we got to 300</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">rea, 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">-F moved into 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">rea, and they closed 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">F down. And then they had a group of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">just smoking dogs.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And it was more difficult in the sense that we had a mask that fit over their muzzle, and they</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">could trick it. They could breathe o</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ut of the side of their mouth. When they did it at</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> one area they </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">trached</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> them,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and there was no cheating that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. It was direct. There was no getting around that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I learned a lot. I mean, that was one of the most exciting jobs. And the learning curve was just</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">like that. I really learned a lot about physiology and biology and chemistry. You work there that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">long, and you learn a lot.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Because part of my job was necropsy</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">or what they call autopsy, but </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">necropsing</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the dogs.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And we always said we took everything but the bark. I mean we literally disarticulated them</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and took every piece that they had. Every organ, every bone, separated it. The reason for that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">we wanted to know where the plutonium or curium or whatever went to in the body.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Where was the body burden? Was it in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the lungs, was it in the bones?</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And interestingly enough, we exposed Pu-238 and 239, and the 238 would be a bone-seeker.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">The bones would have high doses. But in 239, the bones hardly got anything. It was all soft</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">tissue. So they learned a lot from that, as far as where these elements</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">what they seek. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">target organs, if you will. I don't know if all that should go in this.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Fascinating. I really love hearing about it. Could you talk a little bit about</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">obviously, during</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">those times, security and secrecy was still very much a part of working at Hanford. Did that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> impact</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> your work at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Oh, a lot. You know, being raised</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">from my oldest memories, it was secure.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And I can remember when I was probably about 10, 11, 12 years old I went in for a library</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">card here in Richland. They asked who my dad worked for, and I was scared to tell them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Because the security</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">my dad never told me what was going on out there. And I knew security</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was a big deal. And I says, I don't kno</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">w. I kind of knew, but I--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And she says, well, what does he do?</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And I says, well, he drives. So then she wrote down General Electric.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But no, I mean, it was paramount </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">even as a kid. I can remember—and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> this </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">is </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">kind of funny</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">hindsight</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">but kind of put yourself in that t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">imeframe--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I can remember calling my brother who</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was seven, eight, nine years old</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">would have been in the early '50s, McCarthy era</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I can</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">remember calling my brother a dirty communist. And my dad just came unglued. He would</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">rather have me call him S.O.B. than that, because that wasn't something you messed with in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the early '50s, with</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the FBI and everything else.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But I mean, security was bred into you, I guess. And when I hired on, it was still, but not like it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was. But many of us still had that same mentality. I can remember when they started releasing</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">things to the public. That always bothered me, because this is secure, and people don't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the need to know a lot of this stuff.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Security was a big deal. I mean, you didn't go anyplace without a security badge. They could</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">stop you, search your car, and everything else. So it was a high priority.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">There was seclusion areas within the area. You might get out in the area, but you might not be</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ab</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">le to get into a certain area. When you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> got in that area, you couldn't get into another area, like</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">dash-5 or Z-Plant or </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">RE</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">DOX or PUREX</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">. You needed extra security on your badge to get in these</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">places. So security was very tough.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Could you talk a little bit about how Hanford was overall as a place to work? Anything you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">found particularly challenging or very rewarding about your time in the area?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I think it was great. You know, let's face it,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> was great for a lot of people that worked here. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">mean, good pay—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">relatively good pay, and a lot of people raised their families and sent them to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">school on this pay out here. And as far as working out there, we really had fun in the early</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">days.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And by the early days, I mean when I hired on. Because I felt very lucky that when I hired on,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">most of the old-timers were still working. And by old-timers I mean them that hired in the '40s.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So a lot of the stories, a lot of things that they knew and interesting things that they talked</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">about, I was privy to. And that was great.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And it was, to me, really a fun place to work. I really enjoyed it. Later I can remember saying</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">more</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> than once in the '80s or '90s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">, this isn't fun like it used to be. And it wasn't. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you know, I was younger then, and that made a difference. I was about 21, 22 when I hired</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">on. And so times changed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I think in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">early days</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">by that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> my early days</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there was what we call maybe some dead</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">wood. And they might have five people to do a job for two people. But I mean, it was good, it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was job security. Well, then came the cuts and so on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I think that made it a little </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">different, because</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">one thing that's bothered me over the years,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there's been layoffs. But you can check the records. Many times after these layoffs, within six</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">months they're calling them back, because work has to be done. We might cut 500 people, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that job is still there, so they called a portion of them back. Which</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> to me</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> doesn't make sense.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But I don't think there's the fat out there that there was at one time.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? Any other stories that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">stand out?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I think the racial thing was a big story in the early days because there wasn't that many black</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">people working out there. And I can remember us</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I mentioned earlier that Richland didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">have hardly any blacks. We had one black I'm aware of. He was a shoeshine guy at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"><span class="SpellingError SCX237872738">Ganzel's</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> barbershop. His picture is still in there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But I can remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I must</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> have</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> been six, seven years old</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I saw my first black person. I was in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">car downtown with my mom. And I saw him, and I just saw his hands and face. And I can</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">remember wondering, I wond</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">er if his whole body is that way—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">we just didn't see them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We had two black guys in high </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">school. C.W. and Norris Brown, who was t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">errific basketball players. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the main reason their family moved was because of those two boys. It was a different time</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">then.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I don't know it should go on record, because I don't know if it's true or not, but talking about</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">the early people that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> worked there, one of the stories that I heard</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and like I say, whether it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">true, I have no idea. But they were out working, and they had a burn barrel. It was very cold. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">barrel full of wood and so on, a burn barrel. The construction workers were huddled around it,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and this one colored individual this kind of bulled his way in. He wanted to get up to the front.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And the story goes</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">whether, again, true or not</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> I don't know</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">a carpenter took his hammer</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and ended it. And that wouldn't surprise me, though I don't know if it's true or not. Because</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there was prejudice. A lot of the people that came here were from the South, and it was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">different lifestyle. I know that they had separate camps for the blacks and the whites. And it</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was segregated.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So I can remember when I was driving the bus here, we only had</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">to my recollection</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">one</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">black in all of transportation. There may have been more, but I think only one. And it wasn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">until probably '63 or '64 that they really started recruiting blacks.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I understand there were labor organizers and people who came in with the NAACP and that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">sort of thing to sort of assess conditions, which would have been about the time you were</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">working in the 100 and 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">reas. Do you have any recollections of that?</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Well, the one black that I told you about was a service</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">man—l</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">abor. Same group I was in. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">he was the head of the local NAACP. His name was McGee. And the way you became a driver</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was seniority. In other words, if this driver retired and you were next in seniority, you'd get that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">job.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Well, he was the next one up, as a laborer, for a driving job. They wouldn't give it to him, for</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">obvious reasons. Well, he fought it through the NAACP and he ended up becoming a driver.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But they was not going to give him that job because of his race.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Battelle, to their credit, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the first ones to make an overt effort to hire black people. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that's where</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">gentlema</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">n you mentioned earlier. And Battelle had</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">not overwhelming, but a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">number of blacks working for them. And in inhalation toxicology we had a number in animal</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">care as well as in the crafts. So I would say from '63 on, it started changing.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So this is</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> kind of my last question</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">we'll have students accessing these interviews. Most of my</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">students now are too young to have remembered the Cold War. It's sort of an older--</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">So maybe if you could just talk a little bit about what it was like being part of this Cold War</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">effort, and what you'd like students or future generations to know about contributions to that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">process.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I know there's different views on this, but I feel very strongly about</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">because I knew a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">GIs from that time frame—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">had two uncles that were in the war. And you know, the atomic</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">bombs, and we made the plutonium here for the bomb, literally ended the war.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> am a firm believer</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">had we had to invade, there'd been hundreds of thousands on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">both sides killed. And they talk about the badness, rightfully so, of the atomic bomb. But you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">look at the conventional bombing of Germany, and it was as bad or worse as the atomic</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">bombs. The firebombing of Tokyo. Things like that. So as bad as the atomic bomb was, it did</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">end the war. You'd had to live through it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Now, as far as the Cold War goes, you know</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> the place wasn't supposed to last much more</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">than ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> years. And that's what everyone thought. Well, then the Russians got the bomb. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">changed things a little bit.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And it was scary. I mean, like I said </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">earlier, me calling my brother</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> communist. I wasn't old</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">enough to really realize what was going on, but I can remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">would've been during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Korean War</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">my dad came to my brother and I and said, I want to know where you guys are</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">all the time, because we might have </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">to leave town in a hurry. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">hat was the mentality of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">that time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">We had air-raid sirens throughout the town. I can remember every</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I believe it was Monday at</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> o'clock, they would go off to test. But there was one right behind Jason Lee, where I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">going at the time, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> it was loud. Every</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was Monday or Tuesday, at ten </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">o'clock</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">they'd go off. Because we literally were on standby. We didn't know what was going to happen.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And the Korean War and then the McCarthy era, it was a scary time for adults. You know, as a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">kid, you didn't notice it, other than watching others. But I think Hanford had a lot to do with</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ending the war.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Which ushered in the Cold War, because of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">proliferation</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> of the weapons. And you have to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">give credit to whomever for tearing down the wall, for bringing somewhat of a peace in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">world—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I say somewhat.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I think it was our spending billions of dollars building up our</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you know the old saying, peace</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">through streng</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">th. That's what Reagan did. H</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">e was a big spender, but he got the job</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">done.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">But Hanford was unique, because I can still remember there was anti-aircraft placements out</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">there. When I hired on, all the old track houses were still there. I worked on a fuel truck, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">we </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">would fuel here and there and then we'd go out into the desert area, if you will, and look</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">at these old houses that were still standing. And the old icehouse was still there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">And a lot of these buildings were still there in the '60s. And why they had the need to tear them</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">all down, I don't know. I think it was a shame. But they tore them all down other than the bank</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">and the school. I believe about all that's left.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">N</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">o, it was a different time. Like I say, I can still remember my dad telling us both, I want to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">know where you are in case we have to leave town. I mentioned earlier, the FBI</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">it was not</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">unusual to have an FBI agent knock at the door and talk to my folks about so-and-so. We had</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">neighbors that lived in the same house</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">n our A house, our neighbors there</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">was there one day and gone the next. It wasn't unusual to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">you're out of here.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> Certainly a different time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">I want to thank you so much for coming in and sharing your memories with us. I really</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">appreciate it. We'll film all these good</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">ies you brought us, if that's okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Peters</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Yep.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237872738"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">Arata</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237872738">--before we have to go.</span><span class="EOP SCX237872738"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:57:05
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
194 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
100 F Area
Z Plant
Dash 5 Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1945-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1965-2005
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Belt, Larry
Daniels, Vanis
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Leonard Peters
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Leonard Peters conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-06-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11/19/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
100 F Area
200 Area
300 Area
Dash 5 Plant
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
swimming
Z Plant
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e70e5f6902f36a8dce5b5ec4f9229c3.jpg
2299143b7462e91e44a8263168c065d0
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F668060df69888e4182ac2a6dd4aa0020.mp4
1c1a7cedc234e0082608686d3d8c0ae2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Samuel Moore
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">Moore_Samuel</span></span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: My name is Robert Bauman, and I am conducting an oral history interview with Samuel Moore, correct?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Samuel Moore</span>: Right, Samuel--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: This date is July 9, 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Moore about his experiences working at Hanford site, living in Richland and so forth. So maybe let's start actually from the beginning, if you want, could you tell me how and why you came to Hanford, how you heard about it, how you got here?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Okay, I'm going to tell you how I got here. My father was working at a cook in the mental section of Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. And he came home, and he says, there's a better job at Hanford, Washington. So he left and came out. Then he told them that I can't be here without my family. So they put us on, I think it was a troop train, and it stopped in Pasco and set us off.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Could you--where is Camp Chaffee, Arkansas?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">It's</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> east of Ft. Smith and that, so.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And how old were you at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: About eight. And then we come in--put us off of this I'll call it a troop train, because there was a zillion soldiers on it. And it picks up and they took us to Kennewick to a place called Naval Housing. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that's where they put the people coming in for Hanford workers to stay until a house was available. And we stayed there, and then from there we moved to this nice little square building which had a flat top, set up on stilts. And it was called a prefab at 1300 Totten Street. And that means that we lived at the end house. The telephones were on the telephone poles at the end of the block. So when the phone would ring you were told to answer the phone and go get whoever it wanted who. So that's the way we started in Richland. And we lived there for I don't know how long. And then we moved to different houses around Richland until I graduated from Columbia High School, which was Columbia High School in Richland at that time. Now it's Richland High. And then after that I did a short job with a construction company. And then I went to work for General Electric, running one of their blueprint machines when they were ge</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">tting ready to build the REDOX Building and the PUREX B</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uilding. So I'd go, I was the first one in to warm up the machines and run them for </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">a while. And then after while I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">got </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">uplined</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> and I could deliver those suckers out into the area. So that was my starting with General Electric then.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, so let me go back a little bit. So what year did your family arrive then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">19--it was either 1943 or '44.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. And your father, was he a cook here also?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No, no. He'd come out and he was a, as we call them today, rent-a-cop. He wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s a patrolman out there. And he worked as a patrolman ‘ti</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">l he retired.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And you said that your first job was with General Electric, and what year would that have been?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">About 1953 or 4. Then I went from there, like I say I was in the blueprint sections</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> and all that. And then I had a job—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I got a chance to become an engineer's assistant. And then when they were g</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">oing out and building different </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">things</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> so that helped me get into the other sections</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> of General Electric and so on. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And when that one cut, I transferred into radiation monitoring. And that was when</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> they had the Hanford labs, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the old animal</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> farm was at</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> 100 F A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. So I worked in that group until--I f</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">orget what year it was. I'm not </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">good on years and dates. But when they decided they were going to re-tube all of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">those reactors out there in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hundred areas and so they could put bigger slugs in them and all that stuff, I worke</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d on that until about 1957. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">they said, guess what? We're not going to pay you anymore. So I left</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But I stayed with the government job. I went to the Nevada test site and blew all </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the plutonium up that they made </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">out here. So then I came back to Hanford in 1960. So then I was still in radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">monitoring and worked all kinds </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of different places, tank farms and everywhere else out there that I could think about.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So it sounds like you worked all over the Hanford site.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All over the Hanford site, that's right, yes, everywhere. And I worked a lot of the tim</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">es at the burial grounds in 200 </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">W</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">est</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea. When they would tak</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">big wooden boxes to PUREX and RE</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">DOX </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ey'd fill them. And then they'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">pull them up, and they'd put a big long cable on the whole string of cars, and that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">box was way down that string of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">cars. And then when they get up to the burial ground, the train and it would coordinat</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e, and they'd pull it back. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">as the cable would come around, and when the box got to the trench, the train would stop. And they'd just spin it</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">around and down in a trench. And then we get the honor of riding the bulldozers to set those freights so they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">could cover them up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">That was one of the deals. And the other times I worked in a lot of the tank farm</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s and pulling </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">pumps and putting </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">new bearings in those pumps and all that kind of stuff. It was an experience, believe me.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, I'm sure it was. So a lot of this was</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> with</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> radiation monitoring?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: It was r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">adiation monitoring. And I was in radiation monitoring until 1980-something. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">had a little problem out there, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and they wanted me to release some stuff. And I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, uh-uh, not me, it </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">ain't</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> mine. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So they said, well we've got this other section over here that you should be in, so I g</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ot into the safety part </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">with respiratory protection. And I was trained to repair the breathing air things, like the firemen use</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. I was trained </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to do that, fix the PAPRs, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> escape packs, and all that stuff so. And check over places for where they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">—oxygen </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">levels to where they could go in and work and all that, so that was my last eig</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ht years of Hanford, was in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">respiratory section I'll call it.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And so when did you retire then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">In 1994.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So almost 40 years minus the years that you were with--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, yeah. Well as the way I said, when I came back to Hanford in 1960, they tol</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d me it was a temporary job, it would probably only last six, eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> months. Well, I found out that at Hanford a temporary j</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ob is pretty permanent. It only </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">lasted 33 and 1/2 years. It's a temporary job there, so I guess at all turned out pretty good.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I guess you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> consider that temporary.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Temporary, yeah. Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So many interesting things that you've worked on. So let's go back to the early yea</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rs. First, in the 1950s and you </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">talked about radiation monitoring, something with radiation, you did blueprin</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t and stuff, but then radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">monitoring?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then radiation monitoring, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, and some of that was with animals? Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, I went into the animal farm on some certain times, but I wasn't assigned th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ere for anything. The big one I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was assigned to was what they called the 558 project, which is when they re-tubed al</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">l of the old reactors. And that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was, you'd go in and set dose rates for all the people when they're</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> working. And so it was a deal. </span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And now Hanford, of course, is a highly secure site, right, lots of security, secrecy to</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> a certain extent. Can you talk </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">about that at all? I mean, in terms of getting to work or at work, how did that impact you?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Most of the places where I was, the secure part of it wasn't that strict. But other p</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">laces like, some of those </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">buildings, yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> they were really a strict situation. And when I go back a ways, when my dad and we lived in this</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">—I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">call it the slum house on Totten Street--nobody knew what was happening. Nobody knew. I didn't know what the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">guy next door was doing, and they didn't know what my dad did. Until I think it was 1944 or '45 when they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">announced what they were really doing here. And it was kind of a </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">shock, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> deal, so. That was my deals of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">secrecy out there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Now, did you have to have special security clearance?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yes, yes, I did. I had special clearances, yes. I had everything but the very to</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">p secret one. And that was real </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">handy because when I left here, I went to the Nevada test site. I had to use the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> same secret pass. And then the same thing when I come back. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">It was very, very--what am I trying to say here? I mean, I'm an old guy. I'm just abo</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ut at the end of the road here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Most of my work, like I say, was the tank farms, and those places, where secrecy was not involved in that. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d it </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was like times when you'd have a spill, you dig it up and prepare it to the burial gro</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">und. A lot of that was the work </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that we did.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And you said your first job was at General Electric. Obviously, there are different contractors.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Now, who all did you work for over the years?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, we went to General Electric. Then it went to there was one called Isochem</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Ro</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ckwell, oh there's a whole slug </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of them, I can't remember all of them. So it seemed like every time you'd turn a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">round, they were turned over to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">somebody new. But it was Westinghouse when I decided I would better leave before I had a real problem.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So can you talk about what was happening there toward the end that made you want to leave?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, I was, like I say, I was working on the PAPRs and all that kind of stuff. It got t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">o be a real drag, you know. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ev</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">erybody was doing that then. It</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> got to the point where every time you tur</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ed</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> around, everybody was wanting </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">this, and wanting this, and wanting this. You're only one person. And I was a guy that did </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">most all the fixing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So I decided--to my wife, I said--I call her the voice from the other side. She said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> what's the matter? And I says, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">well, before I mess up on one of these pieces of equipment and kill somebody, I th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ink I better retire. So we just decided, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And she worked for the Hanford P</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">roject</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> too</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd of course she was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">much better off than I was. She </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">worked for one of t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">he big managers as a secretary. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So we just decided that was it. And we had our</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> nest eggs saved up and said, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, it's retired an</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d we're going to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">see the world. And we did that until my one eye decides to go bad. Then we ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d to stop. Other than that, I'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">probably been in who knows where.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: While you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re working at Hanford were there any significant events, or sort of, things that have </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">happened that sort </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of stand out in your mind specifically?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Yeah, and I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> tryin</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">g to think. It was about 1962, g</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">raveyard shift, 233-</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">S, it caught on</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> fire and it burned. And it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">a big mess. That's where I wound up with my shot of plutonium in my bones, as I'</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ll say, from that fire. And, of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">course, back in those days you didn't know what was what, so they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">worked on it and cleaned it up. And but t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">here's a couple of contamination things that sticks out in my mind. One </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of them is, we used to bury the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">material from 300</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea which is, I guess you would c</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">all a Westinghouse, Battelle or somebody. And we used to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">dump them into caissons in the backside of the 234</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">5 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea. And we had one of those that kind of brok</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e open and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">messed us up a little bit. Took</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> us maybe six</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, hours to get cleaned up so we we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re able to go on our merry way. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But those are the only two that really stick out in my mind.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Did you miss any amount of work as a result the exposures when you had those?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Nope. Nope. They just cleaned you up and said go back to work. You all have</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> to remember that back in those </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">days</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> all of the things that happened in a lot of places</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> we didn't know. We didn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">know what the repercussions was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">going to be. We didn't know that. Now, this is why we're paying for a lot of stuff r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ight now is because we didn't know how to do all that stuff. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But like I say, there's a lot more people that know a lot more about that Hanford stu</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ff than I do. Like I said, it's </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">been many a year since I worked some of those places, too, that I can't remember some of the stuff.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Sure, sure. The radiation monitoring group, how large of a group was that</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">? And how many employees do you </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">know, have an idea who worked--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">There was probably about 60 or better. But each company, I think, had a group of their own. The 2</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">00 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">reas had </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">one big group. The 100 Areas had a group. And then 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea had a group, so </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you put them all together there </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was probably more than 60-some.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay, and just to—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you said there was a fire in, you think about, 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">62. Was it the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rea?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Yep, in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, down behind the RE</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">DOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> B</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uilding. That just, poof, was it and it w</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ent, so. And I think the reason </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">they had the fire was because somebody had some greasy coveralls and stuff a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd didn't take care of them the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">proper way, and the first thing you know, poof, they were on fire.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And this was where there was radioactive material?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, it was back in the radioactive area, so everything got messed up.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And at the time you probably didn't know necessarily everything, but you've had some health problems </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">since </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I won't say that my health problem is caused by </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the contamination that I had or was dumped</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> with. I've had quite a few of those. I've had a melanoma cance</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">r in this ear, and I had a very </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">large contamination that got in that ear and area. So I've had to have some surg</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ery done there, skin grafts and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that kind of stuff. But so far it hasn't slowed me up.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. Were you working here in 1963 then when President Kennedy came to?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And do you remember at all? Were you there that day?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No. Well, I was on a project that day, but I was not out where he was. I was one </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of the, I guess how would I say </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">this, the lower steel, so I took care of the work over while everybody went to tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t. But yeah, I was here. I came </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">back from Nevada on September 13, 1960, and I worked till '94.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then I wanted to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">sk you a little about Richland. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So other than when you first got here, it sounds like you lived in Richland most of the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">How would you describe Richland as a community at the time, as a place to live?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">It was very good</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> because at that time, when you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re there, you didn't even have </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to worry about locking doors. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">mean, everybody was—it </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">just one big thing. It was a government town and every</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">thing would deal like that. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nobody really did</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">didn't have the vandalism or anything like that around town. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d as you probably know that, if </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you're familiar with Fred M</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">yer</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">’s on</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Wellsian </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Way down there, that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> a swamp deal, because that was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">where Ric</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hland got their drinking water. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Like I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I lived in 1303 Totten the very first time and then we move</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d from there down to on Benham Street. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I don't know how to say this, other than the way I normally say that, but that was down where we call</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ed the turd </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">churn. That was the sewage plant down there. Then from </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there I moved back up to Swift. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then in--I was trying to think when it was, 1963 or so, they did away with the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> old irrigation ditch that came </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">through Richland and goes underneath Carmichael, because that's where they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> flooded the cattail place down </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there for the drinking water in Richland, and l</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">et it seep down and pump it up. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And they busted everything up and back about then I was reading the Villager, I th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ink it was, the Tri-City paper, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e was a lot for sale on Totten S</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">treet. So I bought it and went out and looked a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t it. It was the old irrigation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ditch. And I built a house over the old irrigation ditch, and I still live there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And you—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">when you first arrived you were a child.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">What was it like going to school? I'm assuming that there were people from sort of all over</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All over. Yeah. And you just walk to school. And it was, like I say, there was no bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ses or anything, you could walk </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to school. And everybody just seemed to fit right in</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> you know. Nobody ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d any qualms whether I was from Arkansas or anywhere else. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">But like I say when the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">first house there in Richland, Wr</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ight Avenue was the last </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">street in town. And beyond that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was one of the most fabulous cherry orchards that there was. And when you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">re a kid you'd slip over in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">cherry orchard and get cherries and take them home to your mother. And she co</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uld make you some jams, jellies, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">whatever pie, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">or whatever. But it was a deal. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">There was quite a group of kids that came from all over the country. And they just</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> seemed to fit in, none of this </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">gang thing or anything like that. They were just, everybody was all buddy-buddy, you know?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">You me</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ntioned you went to, what was then </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Columbia High School.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">How about elementary and middle school?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And in elementary school when we moved the one that I really remember was Le</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">wis and Clark down on the south </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">end of town. And I went ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e until one of the,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I'll call them students decided to burn </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">it down. And they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">burnt Lewis and Clark down. And so a lot of us were told to go up to Marcus Whi</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">tman and finish off the year up there. So we did that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then them from there on Carm</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ichael, the junior high, was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">being built and I think they opened it u</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">p at about </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">a mid-year. And I was one of the ones I went there the mid-year into Carmichael a</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nd then over to the high school </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">after that.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And so what year was that the Lewis and Clark burned down? Was that like in the late '40s then?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah. But the funny part of it is, not too many years ago they arrested a fell</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ow down in Portland. And he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">laughing about burning the building down. So I guess they couldn't do anything</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> to him, but they found out who burned it down now. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah. Well, there was Lewis and Clark, Marcus Whitman, Sacajawea which wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s right there by Central United </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Protestant Church was the old Sacajawea school. And then there's Jefferson which i</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">s still going. And our fabulous </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">people are trying to shut it down, move it, and do something else with it. But w</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ho knows what's going to happen</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Do you remember when you were growing up and going to school and living </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">here at that time any community </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">events, parades?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Oh, yeah!</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Atomic Frontier Days was a big—the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> big, big thing. I have breakfas</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">t with a group of Columbia High </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">graduates and I can't remember what her name is, but she was one of them th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">at used to run for the Queen of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Frontier Days. And there was a couple othe</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rs. But that was the big thing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">they used to take—</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Howard</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Amon </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Park turned into booths</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, and just like a big fair down </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there. So it was things, and then all a sudden they decided to move everything around to the Tri-Cities.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And was that in the summer?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, that was always in the summer, you know. And then the big hydroplane rac</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">es, they would come in, but they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">were the old ones that had the 1</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">2</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">00</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> or 1,300 horse-powered gasoline engines in t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hem, the noise makers. But that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">about the extent of the things. And if we</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> go back I can remember the floods came through and when they b</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uild all the dikes that they're </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">tearing down now. But I don't</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> think they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> got to worry about that, being as the dams are still functioning.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Do you remember some of the floods?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: Oh yeah, I can remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> the flood deals, when they built the road up to going </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to the Y. They had to build all </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">up because you didn't get to</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Kennewick when the flood was on. Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">, it was right up to the George Washington Way r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">oad there by wherever the guy that has the petrified stumps down there. The water was j</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ust </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">across the street from his house, was right up to the edge there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">So </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I want to go back now to H</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">anford itself and your work experienc</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">es there. You talked about some </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">specific things you did and some specific things. How would you describe</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> Hanford as a </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Hanford was a real good place to work. It was really good work, and good place </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">to work. Mainly I think because </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you didn't know everything that was going on. So you knew that you had your se</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ction, what you were doing, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you didn't want to make waves or something like that. But to me, Ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">nford was a good place to work. </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">There was a lot of--I had a lot of good friends that came up through the, I call th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">em the ranks. They were, like I </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">worked in the blueprint and there was guys that drove the mail trucks. We wound up</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> as a real knit group of people </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. They work out of the old 703 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uilding, which part of </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> still there. And we used to have Cok</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e breaks and go </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">back there. And everybody put a quarter in the pot and then get your Coke </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">bottle. When it was all through </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">whoever had the bottle that was from farthest away got the kitty. So it was a good place to work</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> really.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And I guess is there anything you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford site?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well, I would like everybody to know that where this country really screwed u</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">p was when we dropped that bomb </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and blew up everything. We kept everything too secret. They should have let e</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">verybody know what that was and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what was happening. Today we would have had a better deal of doing what they're </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">doing today if they'd done that, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I think. Now that's my opinion and no one else's, but if they would have just let t</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">hem know what was going on, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what happened, it would have been a lot better.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then is there anything that I haven't asked you about in terms of either your </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">job at Hanford—or jobs, I should </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">say</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Or living in Richland? That I haven't asked you about, that you'd like to talk about?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">No. Like I say, Richland was a good place to live, though, and Hanford was a goo</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d place to work. I mean you did </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">your job, and everybody else did theirs, and everything worked out just fine. There's a lot of th</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ings that I'm not too </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">sure of what happened. But a lot of those places they did have things when they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> were doing experiments for the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Navy and all kind of stuff out there. But I didn't get in on any of that stuff at all. It was one of those deals, you go in</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">and you dress out, and most the time the monitors were </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">the first ones and the last ones out. So that was the deal.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">When you did that, did you wear a badge?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, TLD, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">rmoluminescent dosimeter. So y</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ou always had a badge on. I understan</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d that </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">some of the guys used to take theirs and set them aside so they wouldn't get too m</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">uch radiation, so they would be </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">eligible for overtime. But I wasn't into that overtime route.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And so how would you know? How did it register that you had too much exposure?</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> How was that read?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Well they put it into a meter that would read what the </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">thermo</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> was. And the original ones were--</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what am I trying to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">say? Film, there was a film. And they would read the film of what, how much had b</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">een exposed to that. And that's how they got your </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">dose rates there, how much you took.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And did that change at some point to some other method?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, they used the film badges to start with. Then they flipped over and they </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">found out they could use these, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">what did</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I call them, thermoluminescent</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> detectors, which is you put at charge on </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">them. And I guess the radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">would discharge</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> the charge. So they'll know how much was used off of it. An</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">d then you had pencils that you </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">read, that would tell you, that would read if you were supposed to take, let's say, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">50 MR. Well you'd set that when </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">you come out, you'd be there and there was always time keepers. There was a tim</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">e keeper in that group that was </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">taking how much your exposure was, and how long you had been there, and calcul</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ating it to when you should get your</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">self out.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And they would let you know that?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And then they'd tap you on the shoulder and say, go. So then they</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">’d</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> go out. And then there would be somebody out</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">there that would get them undressed and check them, clean them, and make sure they were all, no contamination</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">on them and either send them to lunch or home.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">And that sort of procedure--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">That procedure.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">--throughout the time--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Throughout the whole time I was there, yeah. Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All right. Well thank you ver</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">y much. I really appreciate</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> you</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">r</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> being willing to c</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">ome in and talk to us. And very </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">interesting--</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Yeah, like to say, there's things out there that my mind just doesn't pick up on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">m right now. So probably middle </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">of the night at one o'clock, I'll wake up and say, golly, I should have told him this. But n</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">o, that's the deal. But really, </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">Hanford was a good place to work and to me, it's been real good to me. I got a good retirement off of it.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">All right. Well, thank you very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">You bet.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">You bet. And seeing now that he's got the shut off</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> I'll tell you about my week. I took</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> my motor home and went to </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">Ilwaco</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">. You know where </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span class="SpellingError SCX100368582">Ilwaco</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"> is on the Columbia River?</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: Yeah, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582">
<p class="Paragraph SCX100368582"><span class="TextRun SCX100368582"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Moore</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX100368582">On the way over there.</span><span class="EOP SCX100368582"> </span></p>
</div>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:35:10
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
250kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
703 Building
100 F Area
200 West Area
300 Area
234-5 Area
200 Area
100 Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1953-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1953-1994
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Samuel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Samuel Moore conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-06-16: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/9/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
100 Area
100 F Area
200 Area
200 West Area
234-5 Area
300 Area
703 Building
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0f094d5a53d9f182e7f0e025e2f2b8be.jpg
8c6a9bb1b96c15e52e5e257665176a13
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0f2c69c8057ad2de89bc821a77371c1e.mp4
a98291ac678ac0e576af292cdf1abeae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Danny Henry
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
220 kbps
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">Henry_Danny</span></span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">My name is Danny Henry. Spelling is D-A-N-N-Y. Mid</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">dle initial is R for Ray, R-A-Y</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, Henry, </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">H</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">-E-N-R-Y.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: All right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nk you. And my name's Robert Bau</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">man, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">State University</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Tri-Cities on July 2</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX133128238">nd</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> of 2014. So let's start maybe by talking about how and when your family first</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">came to the Tri-Cities. When that was, and why they came.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Actually, my father first of all came to the Tri-Cities. And he came to the Tri-Cities</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> I believe it was somewhere</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">around '48. It was in the mid or late 40s. And he actually came out from the South, from Arkansas</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Atkins,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Arkansas, Polk County. And he was married to my mom at that time, but she stayed back in the South, and he</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">came out to work for the government during the war effort. And he worked out here for some period of time. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">don't know how long, but he liked it out here. And so once his mission was </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">done, he went back to the South. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nd</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">then later years, came back out and found work with the railroad. And then eventually he started working</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">construction.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And he became a laborer, and worked construction. Then he came back ou</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">t to the site, and worked at N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">for some period of </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">time. And I can even remember back in the 60s when John Fitzgerald Kennedy came out here,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> the P</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">resident</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, to give a speech about the N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eactor. I was a kid. I think I was probably about seven or eight years</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">old, maybe 10, somewhere around there. And then he decided to stay out here. When he came back out to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Northwest, back out to Washington, decided to stay out here and got work, and then sent for my mom, and she</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">came out. And so they made a life and stayed on.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Do you know how he originally heard about Hanford? It's a long way from Arkansas.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">My understanding from my older brother, which is 20 years older than me, he said that he actually received</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">direction from the government, or allowance from the government, and received gas credit, or chips, or whatever,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">in order to drive out and to show up at the Hanford site at some designated time. And so him and another one of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">his friends both drove out, and they went to work out here during in the 40s.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">S</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">o he was recruited in some way or something, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yes. Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So then you were born in the Tri-Cities?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yes, I was born in Pasco, Washington in 1953, May 7, 1953. And I graduated Pasco High School, went on to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">college, and graduated from Evergreen State College, and then returned back here to the Tri-Cities and found</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">employment out at Hanford. First of all, it was with Rockwell, and with the fire department. I'll back up a little bit.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">During the summer of when I was in high school, two summers, I did work out for J.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">A. Jones at that time in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rea, and I actually </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">worked as a printer, or learned—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">as a summer job, and learned how to print on these old,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">offset printers. And did that for two summers. And so</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> when—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually I had graduated from college and came back.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">While I was at college, I did receive an emergency medical technician certificate through the State of Washington,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> and so it was a good </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">shoo-in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> to go to work for the fire department as a firefighter. So let's see. It was Chief Good</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">at that time who hired me. And at that time there was only a few that had EMT certifications. And Chief Good had</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">told me that there was no intention at that time to actually have the fire department respond for emergency care.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">They ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">d always call</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ed</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> the Richl</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and fire department, or Kadlec</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, or some other emergency services. And so I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">really see a whole bunch of future in staying there at the fire department. So I heard that they were hiring down at</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eactor for reactor operators, and the pay was a bit better. So I thought that would be a challenge. And so I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">applied.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX133128238">
<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so you got a job there, then?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah. I started working</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> at N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eactor, I believe it was late 1978, and went into the reactor operator program, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eventually</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">w</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ell,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> started in the fuels department, and then had the opportunity to get into the certification</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">prog</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ram for the control room. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">decided I would take on the challenge. There was a lot talk back and forth</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">with the other operators. Some was pro and some was con. No, it's not really better to work in the control room.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">It's better to work in fuels. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">But I </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">seen</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> a challenge of being able to actually operate a reactor. And I really wanted that certification. And so I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">did go in the certification program. And afte</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">r, I think, two years, two and a half</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> years</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> think the class started out, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">think it was like 24, 26. And the final certified reactor operators, I think there was six of us. I could probably name</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">them. Yeah. And all the other operators dropped out, and they went back to fuels, or </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">they got into the trades, or</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">just left the company. But I stayed on and was certified. It was very, very challenging, very hard.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Right. And s</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">o how long was that training program</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> again</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">The training program, I think it was about a year and a half, two years. With all of the qualifications, you had to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">trained on all the different systems. You had to get checked out by the senior operators, and they would ask you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">questions, and make sure you were proficient in every one of those before you got the sign-off. So you had to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">complete all of that, as well as take tests, periodic tests, on the systems. And when you had finished all your actual</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">qualifications, then you were allowed to take the eight-hour exam.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay. Hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so once I had finished up mine, there was testing. And I took the eight-hour exam, and passed the eight-hour</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">exam. I think I probably took about 10 hours to finish it, but that was fine. And passed the exam. And from there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">you were then allowed to do a walk through, where a senior trainer would take you out into the facility, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">basically ask you anything he wanted to, all the way from the front face, to the rear face, to </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">confinement valves, to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the emergency cooling system, and anything in components or valves, and circuitry, and all of that. And I passed</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that, and did quite well.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I spent a lot of time actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">when I was an operator, the duties primarily was laundry, because there was a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">SWPs, or radioactive clothing that was used. So someone always had to maintain laundry. And then also some of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the duties was housekeeping. Some of the duties was actually patrol, where actually you went through the reactor,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and made sure all of the outside systems and everything was in correct alignment, and there wasn't any out-of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">spec</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">conditions. So I spent a lot of time out in the reactor. At the time when I was out, I took it upon myself to take</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">prints with me, and actually verify and look at a lot the systems out there, so I knew them pretty well. So that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">one of the things that really worked fo</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">r me when I did my walk-through</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. I was really ready for that. And I think I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">scored highest in my walk-through of the three tests.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">The final test was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> oral exam. And the oral exam consisted of a senior person from training, senior person from</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">operations, senior person from nuclear safety. And they all sat on your board. And I think there was one other</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> individual also, I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> may have been quality assurance, maybe. And basically they sit in a room like this, and you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">sit in front of a table, and they ask you questions, and you answer the questions. And they had the choice of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">asking you whatever questions they chose to, as long as it related to reactor operations, up to and including the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">electrical distribution systems that powered or brought power to the reactor, as well as the power going out, steam</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">systems, all of </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the different auxiliary systems</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> part of the plant. But anyway, I passed that exam also, the oral</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">board. And so then I was granted my certification.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">A pretty grueling process.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">It was, very much.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And s</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">o how long were you an operator, then</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, how long did you work</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Actually, as</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> a certified operator</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I maintained my certification, I believe, for a year and a half, maybe two years.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">There was a requalification. I think it was about a year and a half. I did operate the reactor, the nuclear console,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the AA console. That probably doesn't mean anything to you, but the water systems, or the actual nuclear panel,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">where you actually pulled and maintained power, and adjusted </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">power, and also a lot of the air balance systems,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and the secondary systems, where the steam was produced and sent over to Washington State Public</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Power. We sold steam. It was a du</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">al purpose reactor. And worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> on all of the panels.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so before you were an operator, you worked in fuels, you said.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So w</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">hat sort of work did that entail?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">The fuels operation</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--[COUGH] excuse me—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the fuel that would come, that would be the spent fuel that was discharged out</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">of the rear of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">reactor would come out,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> go down, and go what was called a trampoline, and go into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">water, and hit this metal mesh chain type of trampoline to slow it down. These fuel elements were, I think, as I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">remember, somewhere around 50-60 pounds. So coming out of the back of the reactor, they were there pretty</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">heavy. And so then they would roll down into conveyor carts, and that's one of the duties as a fuel operator, doing</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">charge discharge. You'd basically take the fuel after it went through the cart, move it out, index it, take it out, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">then place it in various different storage compartments in the back face of the reactor, or actually in the basin,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">what was called the fuels basin. And then also</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that was the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">primary job of a fuels operator, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And s</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">o how long total did you work at Hanford, then?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Total time at Hanford is 35 years. I've been out here 35 years. It's been a long haul.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so you started in the late 60s?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">'78 or '79. I believe my actual start date was 8/1/1978.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So you w</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ere there for a little while, and at</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> s</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ome point the mission shifts </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">to clean up.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Yeah, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> How did that impact the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">sorts of things you were doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Well, one of the things about being</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">as an operator, is that you work shift work. And so I actually worked shift</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">work, I think, for like three years, rotating shift, A, B, C, </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">D</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">; graveyard, swings, days. So I never got used to that. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">had a family. I was just starting a family and stuff, and I wanted to be able to spend a lot more time with my kids</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and my wife on normal hours. So I looked for another job at </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, and there was an opening for actually a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">process standard engineer/</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nuclear safety engineer.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so I applied for it. I got the job, and was responsible for maintaining standards, process standards, which is</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">day-to-day operations. If there was any changes or deviations to the operations, there had to be approval. There</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was an approval process. And so I was kind of responsible for maintaining that, reviewing it, and then approving it</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">through the control room, through my management</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> in order to make any changes to reactor operations. Pretty</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">much that was that job. It was straight days. I liked that. Five days, I was off the weekends. It was great. And there</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was some other opportunities also during that time in that position.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I wanted t</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">o mention, I had a very good m</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">entor. His name was John Long, and he was the nuclear safety</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">engineer, or nuclear safety manager, manager of nuclear safety at that time. And John was very instrumental in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">assisting and helping me, and I really do appreciate his efforts. He's deceased now. But anyway, John helped me</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">quite a bit when I was in that position. There was other opportunities also. I moved from there, and became</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually went into the planning aspects of </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">outages. And so the reactor would run for so long, sometimes there was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">a planned outage, sometimes an unplanned outage. Unplanned</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> outages usually were because the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> reactor scram</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">for some reason. Maintenance had to be done, something had to be fixed or repaired.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So for the actual planned outages, I became a planner/scheduler, or took a position as a planner/scheduler, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually planned to do various different maintenance. What that consisted of was drawing out a long-term plan,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and when the reactor was down, to manage that plan, and for the systems to be fixed, repaired, coordinated for</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the least amount of time so the reactor could actually come back up and running. We were being paid. And it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">one thing I wanted to mention about </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. There was a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> of good spirit. The people who worked out there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">they really knew that they were on a mission. This was during the Cold War, and we knew what we were doing,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and it was just a lot of good spirit. You know, when you'd ride the bus out</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">by the way, I rode the bus back and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">forth.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And when you'd be on the bus, and the reactor was down, and you'd get past the fire department, and you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">make that last left turn, people would just kind of wake up. And they'd be looking, and they were looking to see if</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that green light goes on. There was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">on the bo</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ard, there was a green or red</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> light. And someone up front</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">would say, yeah, we're up. And it was just a lot of that kind of spirit of wanting the reactor to run. I really, really</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">liked that. So being a part of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">doing the planning and scheduling, or a position as planner/schedule was a real</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> shoo-in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> to going to work as outage manager. I then became an outage manager, where actually I managed the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">outage center.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And the outage center basically coordinated, on a daily basis, on a shift basis</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">there was six of us, and I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">you could say we were kind of elite, we were very picked to run that, because it was so critical to the mission</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">your responsibilities was to make sure that things got done as scheduled, as planned,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> and that you had the craft</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> resources to do them. You coordinated with the operations folks, the fuel folks, the engineering. That was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">your job, to coordinate all those efforts. A lot of the things that happened in the plant and the repairs actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">required that you have engineers in place in case there was questions, technical questions, changes to paperwork</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that had to be authorized, and so on and so forth. So that was part of the job as outage</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">primary job as</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> an</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> outage</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> manager is</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> to make sure of that. And you reported directly to upper management, and sometimes DOE. So you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">were responsible on a daily basis to coordinate and have those meetings, and ensure that work got done and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">statused</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> at the end of the day.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So shortly after that, they announced that</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">or probably, I guess, maybe about six to eight months in that position--they announced that </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">after Chernobyl</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">they announced the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> would no longer be on the same</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">mission, and it was going to shut down. So I moved from there to another job. I actually left </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, and went to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rea, and worked as a nuclear safety engineer</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, over for—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I'm trying to think right now. I can remember who I worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">for. I worked for Arlen Shade. But actually, </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">my responsibilities was over B P</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">lant WESF. And at that time they had</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">just started to bring back the capsules that was basically sent down to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I forget exactly</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Decatur, I think. Yeah.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And anyway, these capsules, there was some problems with them. But anyway, they were bring them back. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">so I was right as part of that. I don't know what happened to that mission, but I served there as a nuclear safety</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">engineer with oversight responsibilities over people at WESF for a period of time. And then after that, let's see. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">almost have to look at my resume to think.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">It's really been</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">it's actually been that long. Of course you're going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">be cutting and doing</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> clips and stuff.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> So I can just--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Oh, by the way I have a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I actually pulled this out. This was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually my certification. Wally Ruff's name over to the right there kind of faded. It must have got</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> wet.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, yeah, huh.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> That's the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">original certification.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [INAUDIBLE]</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> What's that?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--the control room on the--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't know exactly what you guys would want, but I just grabbed some stuff. This was my 30-year recognition with Fluor. I don't have a 35. I don't know. They didn't give out</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> 35-year recognition. I don't know</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">why. Let's see. Where am I? Process standards, senior outage planner, outage manager of nuclear safety,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> principal engineer. Oh! Y</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eah. Then after that there was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually, when I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">as the nuclear safety principal</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">engineer oversight o</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ver B P</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">lant WESF, there was a position that came available for a manager for OSHA</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">compliance, OSHA safety and health program.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">We had previously been benefited, let me say, with headquarters coming out, and they were called the tagger</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">team. And they basically came out to the site, and they went through the whole site, and they were doing</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">assessments. They had a very, very large group, and they assessed the site, with the effort to give feedback to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the improvements that needed to be done at Hanford. Well, part of the actions, or corrective actions, was to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">develop an OSHA type of assessment program that would look at occupational safety and health, industrial</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">hygiene, and in some aspects, I think, fire protection.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Anyway, there was a position open, and I did not have the background in occupational safety and health, but I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">talked to my manager, and talked to my manager, and finally I convinced him to put me in as a temporary</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">position, just as an acting manager. And so he went ahead and authorized that. So I then moved from the outer</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">areas down to 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rea, and f</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rom there, he basically said, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, Danny, you want this position. You think you can</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> do it? He says, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, here's a stack of resumes. You have two staff and tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">t's it, and a student worker. Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, so you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">need to first of all hire and find some people that are qualified to be inspectors in occupational safety and health,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and hygiene. And then you need to have all this done, by the way, and a program developed in four months.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so that was quite a challenge. It was really a challenge. I did hire</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">went outside and hired some people, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">they were good people. We were a very good team. I didn't know about occupational safety and health, but they</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">taught me. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> knew I could hire</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> people that were smarter than me. And I actually hired</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and maybe for reference,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">one of the people was Judy Larson I don't know if she still is living. But she was a certified industrial hygienist. She</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was working for PNNL, and she transferred over. I also hired a student that</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">well, no, he actually had graduated</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">with a mechanical engineering degree, and he wanted to do fire protection. So I said if he came over I'd get him</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">trained up. And so he came over. And I also hired another individual that was an industrial hygienist</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">or two other</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">individuals, a Clinton Stewart, and the first occupational safety and health person I hired, his name was Steve</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">Norling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. And he would be a good person to interview in the future. I would recommend that you do that.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">How do you spell the last name?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">Norling</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. N-O-R-L-I-N-G. Steve. He's a good guy. He still works PRC. I haven't seen him in a few years, but I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">he's still out there. But anyway, we developed a program. We put the program </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">together, hired a contractor to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually help us with the writing of the program, and we set it up. And we actually went out in the site, and first of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">all, we had to compile all of the buildings, because we were basically responsible for all of the Westinghouse</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">people, and all of their facility.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So we had to figure out all of the facilities in the whole site. And then we had to have some kind of system to figure</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">which ones we would go look at first, based upon risk. And so we developed that program, and to make a long</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">story short, the tagger team came back out to check the corrective actions on all of the site, and when they got to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">us, our program, they had no findings, absolutely no findings, zero findings. And they only had one</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">recommendation, in that we needed to involve the employees more. And so then we transitioned into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Voluntary Protection Program</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. But that was very outstandi</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ng. And that really impressed</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> my management. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">then from acting manager, I was made manager of the organization, and proceeded on to continue my career.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So what time frame was this, roughly, then?</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Oh, let's see. That was May 1991 to September 1992.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Okay.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Let's see. From there, I transitioned into basically manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">of safety programs assessments, which developed. And basically our mission at that point was to develop</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">baseline hazard assessment programs for facilities. And basically, for each facility that you had operations in, to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">go and do a baseline hazard of everything, both the occupational safety, industrial hygiene, the nuclear aspects of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">it, and any other types of hazards, so that for that facility, all of the known hazards of that facility would be known</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and could be communicated, and basically programs and systems set up in place to keep the workers safe.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">From September 1992 to February 1994, I worked in that position. And after that, I worked as the manager of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Voluntary Protection Program, or actually manager of Industrial Safety P</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">lanning, which consisted of managing the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Voluntary Protection Program</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> for Westinghouse and for Fluor Hanford, doing their contract transition. And of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">course the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Voluntary Protection Program</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> is still out here on the site, as you probably well know, and there's</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">different</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">but I was very instrumental in getting that program off zero.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">After that, I worked as operations engineer. I transitioned and went back out to the site, to 105 K-East and K-West.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I worked as an operation sp</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ecialist in development of the Canister Storage Facility and the Cold Vacuum D</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rying</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Fa</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">cility out at K-Basins</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> and at 200 </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">East</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, is where the C</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">anister</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> S</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">torage B</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">uilding is. And then also K-East and K-West</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">storage facility. I was assigned to the shift office, and worked as an OE, Operating Engineer, basically under the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">dir</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ection of a shift manager. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> basically manage</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">d</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> the facility's work activities, coordinated those on a daily basis</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">to get work done, assigning work to the craft personnel, releasing work packages during lockout/</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">tagout</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">various different aspects of operations for that facility, managing that facility.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">After that, let's see, that was from</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> 1998 to 2002. And from January</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> 2002 to present, I've worked as a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ma</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nagement assessment coordinator. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nd responsibilitie</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">s are primarily to develop the Management A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ssessment</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Program and Integrated Evaluation P</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">lan database for DOE-RL. And let me explain</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, that Integrated Evaluation P</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">lan</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">is basically a database that takes RL's assessments and our assessments, and basically puts them together, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">we have one integrated plan.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I see.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> And that effort is to actually benefit, or to alleviate, or eliminate redundancy in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">assessments, teaming with the site and doing various different assessments, rather than they doing one and we</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">doing the same one. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So that's currently where I'm at right now.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So you've had several different sorts of positions. You've worked at </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">s, and K-Basins, and different parts</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">of the site. Of the different jobs you had, over the 35 years, different places you've worked, what was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was there</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">a specific job or place that was sort of the most challenging and/or most rewarding, that you got the most sense of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">accomplishment or reward?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah, there was. I would have to say probably the reactor operations was probably, I'd say, number one, because</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I know there was no other African Americans that had ever certified at </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, and then later on I found there wasn't any others in any of the other facilities of the plants. So I felt very good about that. And it was very</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">challenging. The second area would have been in developing the OSHA compliance program, because that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">basically, I knew basically nothing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And I had to go find people in order to work that were much smarter than me, and be able to develop a program</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that would actually meet </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the mu</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ster of headquarters when they came back out. And it was very challenging. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">stayed up quite a few nights thinking about it and worrying about it. And yeah, it was very challenging. But it was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">very, very well-put-together program, and it met everything that they were looking for. So I'd have to say those two</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">positions were the most challenging, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">When you were talking about working at the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, you talked about riding the bus, and the sort of spirit, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">sense of mission, I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, in the Cold War</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So when the Cold War ended in 1989, 1990, did that sort of sense of mission change? Did it shift somewhere?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I guess I co</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">uldn't really expound on that, because w</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">hat I was speaking of was during the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">time I was working at N Reactor. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nd once the Cold War ended, I was at that time working</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">when did the Cold War end? That was--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Well, I guess it depends, right? The Berlin Wall came down in '89.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: When the wall came down. Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. Yeah. I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">where was I at </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">at</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> that time? Yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, I was actually up in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rea. I was oversight. I was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">part of an appraisal team doing integrated sa</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">fety appraisals out of the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">rea. So I had transitioned away from</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">eactor some years before that. So I didn't really feel a difference with what I was doing. The real thing that I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">seen</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> that really affected a lot of the people at </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> was when they announced that it was not going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">t no</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">longer had a mission. It wasn't going to be restarted. The reactor was run very hard, run very well, and produced</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">a lot of power, and was very good in its mission. And there was just a lot of pride there. And when that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">announced, there were a lot of people that really was hurt by that, because it was a reason to come to work. It</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was really a reason to come, and a reason to work for something.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I want to go back to something you talked about early when you started talking. And you mentioned President</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Kennedy's visit when he dedicated the </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. So do you remember that?</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Did you--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I actually remember that very well. And in fact, it was my father, and my mother, and my sister, and me, and my</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">friend, Ronnie Brown. I haven't seen him in years, but I understand he's doing well. My dad brought us all out to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the site, and drove with all of the, what seeming like thousands and thousands of cars, you know, we were just</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">kids, and all the way out to </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">N Reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">. And yes, I definitely remember that. I can remember the helicopters coming</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">in, and the dust flying, and all that. And I didn't know that President Kennedy's hair was red.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> But on that day,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">seeing him that close, because me and my friend, we kind of wormed all the way up as close</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">we were just little</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">tiny kids, so people let us by.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And we got up there, and we were able to stand up on</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">there was like different seating that people had brought.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And we just kind of stepped up on one of the little seats that were there, and we had to get our heads up over the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">crowds. And we could see him when he stepped out of the helicopter, and he walked over to the podium. I can</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">remember that, just like the yesterday. I also remember that day very well because my sister</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">t must've been</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">over 100 degrees there</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">my sister was suffering from heat exhaustion. I remember when we actually came back,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">my mother was taking care of her. She was getting water into her, and everything. That was a very vivid day. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was a very, very, very good day.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">What I also wanted to ask you was, like growing up in Pasco in the 50s and 60s, was it a segregated place?</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Or was it—what was it like?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Not when I came along. Not actually in the 60s. I hear stories about the wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">y it was, but I don't know. I we</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nt to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Pasco High School. I went to Stevens Junior High School. It was all integrated. My grade school was Whittier. It</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was integrated. It just was East Pasco, and it was primarily blacks. But also the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">re was Hispanics and whites all </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">went to that school, but it was predominantly black. Then after, actually, when I finished sixth grade, they divided</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">sixth grade, and then seventh, eighth, and ninth. It was junior high school.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I was selected, because of where I lived in East Pasco. I was assigned to go to Stevens Junior High School, which</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was, at that time, way across town, and nothing, hardly anything around it. So we rode the bus over to Stevens.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">But prior to that, the majority of blacks, African Americans, H</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ispanics, basically went to McLo</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ughlin Junior High</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> School. But McLo</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ughlin at that time was what is now Pasco City Hall. That used to be McLoughlin.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> But my brother</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">goes back, I mean my brother's deceased. And he passed away, in fact, about a year and three months ago.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: This was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> your brother who was about 20 years older?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah. He actually went</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the high school at that time was McLoughlin, which then became City of Pasco.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> And</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Whittier was the grade school, junior high school when he went to school. I do have some pictures of him. He was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">part of the patrol that went out and let the kids across the street and stuff. Yeah, he had the little patrol hat on, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">all that. I have all those pictures of him when he was really young. And by the way, my brother, he is 20 years</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">older than me, but he graduated from Pasco High. He then entered the Army</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">or no</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> he was drafted. He was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">drafted, and he actually fought in the Korean War. And he corrected me. Every time I said Korean War, he said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">no, it's the Korean conflict. It was not a war.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> And he served two terms in Vietnam, and was wounded.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">What was his first name?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Thurman. In fact I have a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—here—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">obituary out of the paper. But he had what I consider a pretty impressive military</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">career.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">20 years of active service.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yes. Two terms in Vietnam, a very unpopular war. Me growing up in the 60s, it was, gee, I've got a brother that's</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">overseas fighting, with all the racial strife and stuff here in the United States. But he was very proud of his country,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and he was willing to go and do whatever he was assigned to do.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so you had an older brother, and how many other siblings did you have?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I had </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">a sister. I actually had a half-brother and a half-sister, that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">they didn't live here. They lived</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Margie lived in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Wichita, Kan</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">sas. And my other brother, half-</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">brother, lived in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I think he lived in Wichita, Kansas, too. I didn't really</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">get to know him that well. I got to know Margie pretty well. Then I had my sister, Marilyn. She graduated from</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Pasco High School. A teacher for 34 years in Yakima. She just retired about three years ago, I think. And still living</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">in Yakima. But she taught school. And those were all of my siblings.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So would you say that Pasco, Tri-Cities was a good community to grow up in?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah, I think so. I really think so. No, I don't have any</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I have to just</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">not so much the community as much as</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">pointing back to my parents. I think I had very</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I've seen other people, my friends with different parents and stuff.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And I think I had some pretty good parents. My dad was very industrial. He worked construction as a laborer, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">he had rentals. And he had</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and of course, I came along much later. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">But he had houses and rentals, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">ut he</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">worked construction.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">him and his best friend, Mr. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span class="SpellingError SCX133128238">Louzell</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Johnson. He was a bricklayer. My dad was a laborer. They kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">was a team. And they worked, and they built a lot of houses throughout Pasco, Kennewick, and Richland back in</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the 50s and 60s. And he worked on a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> of the dams on the Snake River.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, really?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: T</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">he building of a lot of the dams. And I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">can just remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">well, I can remember my mother talking, and also my dad. And on Sundays we would take</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">drives, and he would take</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> us way out to where the dams</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> were being built, and stuff like this, for</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">something to do on Sunday for the family. And I didn't pay any attention to it really. But I can remember. I can</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">remember. Those were very good times. My mother, she worked at the Navy base that was in Pasco.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Have you heard</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yes!</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that there was a Navy base there? She worked in the laundry at the Navy base. And then we</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">came along, my sister and me, and so she just stayed home and took care of us, and my dad worked. But I spent</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">a lot of years painting, and fixing hot water tanks, and unplugging sinks when I was a kid. I was very cheap labor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So I learned to do that stuff really early in life. So that's pretty much my parents. They were very good people.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Anybody you ask, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">y were very good people. There’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> the obituary of my mom. I didn't get the obituary of my dad.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I didn't find it. I have it somewhere, but there's this picture here. Anyway, go ahead. I just</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—I’m</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> kind of rambling. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">you can</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">it's a good thing you're editing this, and you can cut out all the--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Are there any other events? You talked about the JFK visit. But any other events that sort of stand out in you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">r</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> mind</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">from growing up, or from your</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> years working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">You know, I can't really</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">not really. Not really anything that really, really stands out.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">So overall, then, in looking back at your 35 years working at Hanford, how do you assess it as sort of a place to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">work?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Overall, I'd say that Hanford, for me, it's been a very good place to work. I was given opportunity. You know, I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">opportunity. And anyone that's going to achieve anything in life, if they prepare themselves, </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">when the opportunity</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">comes, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">y step forward and they take it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> I mean you can't much ask for much more than that. My dad gave me</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">some advice, of course, when I first started working out there. You know, he said, make sure you keep your eyes</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">open, and you watch everything around you. And do not worry about if there's people against you, because God</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">will always put one person there for you. And I always remember he told me that. And so I think about that, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">different times during the time I worked out there, the people that have been there, that have assisted me and</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">mentored me, and helped me to continue to do better work, a better job, and basically to feed my family and keep</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">on living, as my mother would say.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Yeah.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> I can't think of any other outstanding</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">there's been a lot of accomplishments, just small little milestones that</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">have been made in safety and our management's commitment to safety, and our management's commitment to</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">the workers, and making sure that they are heard, and that they're actually dealt with, and talked to, and gotten</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">back to when they have safety concerns. And I guess there's a lot of pros and cons about that. But I see safety as</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">being not just the number one thing at Hanford, but being integrated in all that we do at Hanford, is how I see it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And so I know there's a lot o</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">f things—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I've seen the media. I've </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">seen there are things that are</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> going on out there that I don't</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">know about. I have not worked in some of those areas. But for all of the areas that I have worked and been in,</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that has been the primary concern, is safety.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">And you compare to what we have out at Hanford, compare it to out in the real world, and we have a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">commitment and concern, and actually management standing up, and taking responsibility for things, and actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">dealing with them, trying to correct them, and working to try to make events or things that happen not reoccur. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">actually brought a</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">you can get back to your question</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, but I'll forget. But I actually sent off</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">you know, I seen it on</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">television, and then a fellow emplo</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">yee told me about the Cold War Patriots?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: And you probably know.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> I got my little</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">certificate. And I got, actually, the pin.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> Whoops!</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> I actually got this pin that came with it. And I have it</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">of course I can't bring</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">my badge in here, because it's a Hanford badge. But I stuck my little pin on the badge, and so I thought that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">kind of neat.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah. Actually, I talked to the Cold War Patriots last week </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">about the project here. Well, I don't have any other</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> questions for you.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Oh, okay!</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: U</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">nless there's something else that we haven't talked about</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> yet</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, or I didn't ask you about that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> think is important, to--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> We can</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Eric can actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> film some of this sort of</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> once we’re done talking.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Eric</span>: Yeah, anything that you showed him we’d want to get photocopied.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Okay, sure</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: They</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> could always integrate</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">that, then, into the interview.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">, sure. Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Anyway, thanks very much for coming in--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henr</span>y: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">You bet.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--and doing the interview. I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Henry: Okay, yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">You know, if you don't step forward and make sure that you're a part of history, you won't be.</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Absolutely. So how did you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">I was going to ask you, how did you hear about the project? </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Did </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">[INAUDIBLE]</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> contact you</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">?</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">Actually, I was at a PZAC meeting</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">President's Zero Accident Council</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">—</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX133128238"><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Henry</span>: --</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">meeting</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">and there was an individual that</span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX133128238">works--</span><span class="EOP SCX133128238"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
200 Area
N Reactor
105 K-East
105 K-West
K Basins
200 East
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1953-2014
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1978-2013
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald)
Long, John
Ruff, Wally
Larson, Judy
Stewart, Clinton
Norling, Steve
Brown, Ronnie
Henry, Thurman
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:52:04
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Danny Henry
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Danny Henry conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-06-1: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/2/2014
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site.
Nuclear instruments & methods
Pasco(Wash.)
Richland(Wash.)
105 K-East
105 K-West
200 Area
200 East
300 Area
B Plant WESF
K Basins
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
N Reactor
Washington State Public Power Supply System.
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F949c34824c3baa683668f048b76a3f7c.jpg
a7532e182135be110ec23c9c1739ee92
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff4c175dd0e7d7618799f999a667b9b3a.mp4
8ac495b3421b632f99b868b055771a34
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Joe Soldat
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div>
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<p><strong><span>Northwest Public Television | </span><span>Soldat_Joe</span></strong></p>
<p><span><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: Okay, all right. </span><span>W</span><span>ell, w</span><span>e'll go ahead and get started.</span><span> All right.</span><span> What I'm going to have you do first is say your name. And then spell it for me.</span></span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Joe Soldat</span>: Okay.</span><span> Joseph Soldat, S-O-L-D-A-T.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Thank you, and my name is Robert Bauman. And we're conducting an oral history interview. Today's date is </span><span>August 6</span><span>th</span><span> of 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University</span><span>,</span><span> Tri-Cities. </span><span>And so I'm talking today with Joe Soldat about his experiences working at the Hanford site. </span><span>So I wonder</span><span>--</span><span>let's start by maybe you tell me how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard </span><span>about the place.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>When I graduated from the University of Colorado with a degree in chemical engineering, I worked for a while at </span><span>the Denver General Hospital, which was associated with the university. And they lost their research grant. So I </span><span>heard from somebody that there was a place called Hanford. </span><span>So I wrote a letter to the employment department at GE. And I got a thing back, of course, that says, we got your </span><span>letter on file. But it wasn't too long afterwards they called me, and told me to come. So I agreed to come out, sight </span><span>unseen, on the train. </span><span>And I got off to train. I looked at all the sagebrush</span><span>,</span><span> like everybody, and said, oh, I'll give it a year or two. That was </span><span>1948. And I stayed on the project for 47 years.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Ah. </span><span>And so</span><span> you</span><span> arrived in this place of sage brush and desert.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>What sort of housing did you find?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, when I came they put me in a barracks in North Richland,</span><span> the </span><span>old military barracks</span><span>--</span><span>small rooms for two people </span><span>with a closet and a dresser. And </span><span>showers were down the hall. Maid</span><span> came in once a week to change the linens </span><span>and towels. </span><span>And I was paying $0.20 a day for rent. Eventually, I got to move to Richland</span><span>--</span><span>the dorm M4. And on the corner </span><span>right now is a bank where M2 used to be. And </span><span>M2 became a motel for a while—s</span><span>ome guy bought it. </span><span>And then it fin</span><span>ally became a bank. But my wife-to-</span><span>be lived in the women's dormitories with W numbers. And so we </span><span>finally met, and ended up getting married in '52.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So did you live in the dorms for about four years from about '48 to '52</span><span> then</span><span>?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah, before I got married, yeah. And we managed to get a house. Because I was in radiation protection, we had </span><span>some small priority on getting housing. And we picked out a p</span><span>re-cut on the south side, three-</span><span>bedroom. So we lived </span><span>there till '63.</span><span> And moved in a </span><span>ranch house where I live now on Torbett, in a remodeled ranch house with an extra bedroom.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>About how large were the dorms that you lived in?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>The dormitories? Well, I'd say maybe as big as from here to that wall square.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>About how many people lived in the dormitories as a whole?</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: On the</span><span> whole, I don't know. They had</span><span>--</span><span>since I was on weekly salary, I had one kind of dormitory. Those that were </span><span>hired on monthly salary had a little fancier ones. And the women had their own real good ones with a fence </span><span>around it.</span></div>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Bauman</span>: </span><span>So what was Richland like in the late '40s and early '50s in the community?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, when I finally moved into town</span><span>, </span><span>the town, essentially, was closed. If you didn't work there, you could</span><span>n’t</span><span> live </span><span>there. You could come in. There was no fence around it. </span><span>But if you retired, you had to go somewhere else to live. There was no retirement housing. And the city, when I got </span><span>my house, supplied oil, or coal, free for the housing. So the rent was fairly reasonable at that time.</span><span> And they ha</span><span>d the fe</span><span>deral government until, I think</span><span> it was '58, when they sold houses to us, and got their own </span><span>governme</span><span>nt. One of my friends, Bob McKee</span><span>, was on the church council. And he became, eventually, mayor of </span><span>Richland. </span><span>His funeral is coming up Thursday. He died away back in the spring. But they delayed the funeral for relatives, I </span><span>guess. </span><span>But, anyway, I got a reasonable price for my house, I thought. It was like about $9,000 plus, because I had put up </span><span>a fence, and a little thing for storage of garbage cans and stuff. They thought it was the enhanced above the </span><span>original value. So I got a little better value. </span><span>We had the option of taking a buy back offer. If you wanted to sell the house back to the government in x number </span><span>of years, they would give you a 15% discount on your house. But I didn't opt for that. </span><span>I figured by then, I was going to stay.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> They had a cafeteria in a building next</span><span> to the 703 Building, that old Q</span><span>uonset</span><span>hut-shaped building, that later became commercial facilities. But we could go in there for breakfast and get meals </span><span>that were partly for military style, like powdered scrambled eggs and stuff like that.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And w</span><span>hat about entertainment at the time you were living in the dorms? Were there things to do entertainment-wise?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: O</span><span>h, o</span><span>kay</span><span>. T</span><span>he people that lived in the dormitories could join the dorm club. We did all kinds of thing</span><span>s. We</span><span> had parties, dances, </span><span>skiing, bike riding, hiking—</span><span>everything before all these individual groups were established. So they covered the </span><span>whole share. I </span><span>learned to ski a little bit at Spout </span><span>Springs, made it down the beginner's hill.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And you said you met your wife during that time?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yes.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Was she working also at the Hanford Site</span><span>, then</span><span>?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>She was a secretary. And she worked for a </span><span>while. We got married in June, a</span><span>nd in December, she had to quit </span><span>because she was pregnant. They would not allow</span><span>,</span><span> at that time</span><span>,</span><span> pregnant women to work after fourth or fifth month. </span><span>And then she never did go back to work. But she got involved in things like volunteering at the Red Cross, and </span><span>Republican Women's Club, and all the things kept her busy.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Did you meet as part of some social activity? Or was it on the job</span><span>,</span><span> at work that you met?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>She did all this being a housewife, all those things.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>But how did the two of you meet?</span><span> Was it at a--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>I'm trying hard to remember.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: O</span><span>h, o</span><span>kay</span><span>.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>I think I was introduced by a mutual friend, a guy that I used to bowl together. That's the other </span>thing we had for <span>entertainment in Richland, was bowling. And I liked doing that. </span><span>But one of the guys I bowled with, we went to the restaurant</span><span>. Next to the Richland Players</span><span> Theater used to be a </span><span>drug store, a</span><span>nd they had a little cafeteria in there. </span><span>We went in there, a</span><span>nd we met these two women. And he knew one of them. The other one was going to become </span><span>my wife.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Let's move now to the work you did at Hanford. What was your first job?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>My first job while I was waiting for my clearance was in wh</span><span>at was the bioassay lab in 700 A</span><span>rea doing statistical </span><span>analysis of the resu</span><span>lts of the analysis of employee</span><span>s</span><span>’</span><span> urine for radioactive contamination. I wasn't allowed to know </span><span>everything I was analyzing. But I did a statistical analysis. </span><span>I had </span><span>a</span><span> orange card, which allowed me in, because I didn't have my clearance. Theoretically, I was supposed to </span><span>be escorted in and out. But there was such a mob of people going in and out they never bothered to ask me who</span><span>my escort was.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So where was this at?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: 700 Area, 703 B</span><span>uilding</span><span>—</span><span>the old one. And the b</span><span>ioassay lab was inside the 716 B</span><span>uilding, I think it was.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And so how long did you do that?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>I did that</span><span>--</span><span>well, I came in August, '48. And it was five months before I got my clearance. Then I went out to T Plant </span><span>as a radiation monitor in training.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And how long did you work there?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Oh, gosh, I worked there for a couple of years. And then I got transferred to environmental monitoring. Out there </span><span>in 2-East Area, environmental monitorin</span><span>g people were housed in an old Q</span><span>uonset hut next to the coal pile. </span><span>You had to go in and sweep your desk off with a broom every morning to get the coal dust off of it.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> And I stayed </span><span>there for a </span><span>while. I did some projects, calibrating some instruments, and other things.</span><span> And then we moved to 329 Building in 300 </span><span>Area. I think it was in the early '50s. And I stayed in environmental </span><span>monitoring work ever since</span><span>,</span><span> through the rest of my career</span><span>,</span><span> writing impact statements, deriving equations for </span><span>calculating dose to the public from releases at Hanford in food, and water, and air, and stuff like that. </span><span>And my models are still being used some places. I was</span><span>--</span><span>we didn't have a lot of data. But I learned from the turtle </span><span>you don't make progress unless you </span><span>stick your neck out. That’s how they do. S</span><span>ometimes throw darts at the chemistry </span><span>chart on the wall. And say, well, this one should behave like that one, and put together what we could know. </span><span>And my coworker Dave Baker was a computer guy. I'm not very good at computers. But he computerized a lot of </span><span>my equations and stuff. Between us, we agreed and what kind of factors to use. </span><span>There was some literature from the fallout studi</span><span>es. There was a fellow named </span><span>Yoka</span><span> Ng</span><span>, </span><span>N-G</span><span>,</span><span> in </span><span>California who had to put together a lot of data for the fallout branch on concentrations of various chemical </span><span>elements in soil and plants, which made it very easy for me to predict the update of the radionuclides.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So</span><span>,</span><span> what kind of findings did you have at some of your research about things that happened at Hanford in terms of </span><span>the air, and water, and so forth?</span></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span>Soldat</span></span><span>: </span><span>Well, depends on what you want. It</span><span> all started in '58 when Jack Healy</span><span> gave a paper at the International </span><span>Atomic Energy Symposium. And he talked about what we were measuring in the environment, and the kind of </span><span>findings that we had. </span><span>And we eventually created a maximum individual person who ate big amounts of food, and drank milk from cows, </span><span>and fish from the river, and all that. And then we calculated the dose he would get from concentrations in these </span><span>things. And things were </span>generally below the limits that they had at those times. <span>Originally, in the early years the limits for the public were the same as workers. It took them a while to figure out </span><span>that there are, perhaps, more sensitive people in the public because workers were all health screened and </span><span>everything. So they lowered all the</span><span> public limits by a factor of ten</span><span> to be safer. </span><span>And we also had to put controls on releases to the atmosphere. The manager of the radiation protection </span><span>de</span><span>partment—it call was called health instruments at first—</span><span>set limits for the reprocessing plants, and how much </span><span>iodine they could release, and other things. And they worked hard during those years in the '50s and '60s putting </span><span>in new cleanup equipment on the stacks</span><span>—</span><span>sand fi</span><span>lters. And then eventually PUREX</span><span> had fiberglass filters to remove </span><span>the particles and stuff. </span><span>So I've installed sampling equipment on all of the stacks</span><span>, and the separation there is, s</span><span>om</span><span>e of them before and </span><span>after the cleanup so they could see what the efficiency was. And I kept track</span><span>,</span><span> by goin</span><span>g to the operating gallery</span><span>,</span><span> what </span><span>kind of metal they were processing, how old it was, how much it had decayed, so</span><span> we could relate things to what </span><span>we were</span><span> finding at the stacks. </span><span>That data is still around. And when they did the dose reconstruction under Bruce Na</span><span>pier, they used a lot of my old </span><span>data about the stack releases. Fortunately, Bruce had an office next to me.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> So we communicated.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So you worked there for how many years at Hanford?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>47.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>47, you must have seen a lot of changes in technology, instrumentation, those sorts of things?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>And administration.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> Yeah. GE, at one time, I think it must have been in the '50s, </span><span>decided that they would have no </span><span>job descripti</span><span>on titled assistant, or under-</span><span>secretary, or whatever like that. There w</span><span>ould be no committees doing any </span><span>administration. Every job had to have a written, definitive description specifying the d</span><span>uties, and the authorities, and </span><span>the obligations. And it worked we</span><span>ll for a long time. </span><span>And then before that, when I wanted to get a paper cleared, I had to go through</span><span> about half a dozen signatures, </span><span>including public relations, of course. But then later on, I</span><span>--</span><span>essentially with </span><span>my boss and one guy from public </span><span>relations</span><span>--</span><span>they all had to clear my public paper</span><span>s. And it worked out well then. Then Battelle</span><span> took over, reorganized things a little bit. And a funny thing hap</span><span>pened. I had a secret clearance </span><span>with GE. When </span><span>Battelle </span><span>took over, they decided that they didn't want to hav</span><span>e too many secret clearances to </span><span>manage. So they lowered my clearance and several other people</span><span>’s. </span><span>I want to the library to get a report I had written in 1949, classified secret. They gave</span><span> it to me on microfiche. I read </span><span>it, and I asked for a full printed copy. The remark I got eventually was, you can't</span><span> it. You're not cleared for it. </span><span>What are you going to do, brainwash me?</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> So </span><span>Battelle </span><span>had to raise my clearance back to what it was before.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Because you had written secret reports?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>I talked about iodine releases to the environment, a</span><span>nd measurements inside the 200 A</span><span>reas.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I understand you were involved in a comprehensive food model?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>What was that?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, about the late '60s, Westinghouse had a project to try and calculate dose</span><span>s to the US public from a large </span><span>nuclear economy, especially reactors, and ignoring the waste part. And they </span><span>needed to know what would be in </span><span>food, and </span><span>water, and air, and everything. </span><span>And a fellow by the name of Bill Templeton who was an aquatic biologist worked with me at first. And then, f</span><span>inally, he said, okay</span><span>, </span>Joe. You're doing all right. So he turned me loose. But I <span>had a fellow, Dennis Harr, who came to Hanford from Alaska. </span><span>He was a fores</span><span>t hydrologist. They assigned hi</span><span>m to me to help look up the fa</span><span>ctors I needed. He came here to </span><span>WSU</span><span>--</span><span>or to Pullman, really</span><span>—</span><span>and looked up all of thinking about how much </span><span>a cow eats, how much water they </span><span>drink, and how many acres of this and that is growing. So he was very helpful lo</span><span>oking all that stuff up for me. </span><span>I just sat down and wrote an equation. I h</span><span>ad heard that in the Windscale</span><span> acciden</span><span>t that the iodine they released </span><span>stuck about 25% to plants. So I used that factor.</span><span> And I added that stuff from </span><span>Yoka</span><span> Ng with the soil to plant </span><span>ratios. So I modeled the uptake from soil, and combine all that in a big long equ</span><span>ation with about 21 parameters. </span><span>And I gave a paper on that</span><span> at an ANS meeting in the '70s. </span><span>And I also developed a diagram</span><span>—a </span><span>pathway </span><span>diagram I call it</span><span>--</span><span>with all of the line</span><span>s from all of the sources going </span><span>across and interacting. And then at the end, they combined for the dose at the end. </span><span>And that got published, too, in my '70 paper. </span><span>And I did put all that stuff together with some other things for </span><span>Reg</span><span> G</span><span>uide 1</span><span>.109. It included my calculated </span><span>dose factors for people of four ages</span><span>--</span><span>four years, 11 years, 17 or 16, and adu</span><span>lt, because the organ sizes are </span><span>differe</span><span>nt. So the doses are different. That was in there, my food model was in there, a</span><span>nd then I developed a model </span><span>for exposure to sediment in the </span><span>Columbia River. Dick Perkins had measured three or four radionuclides in the se</span><span>diment in the Columbia River as </span><span>best you could, because it's awful rocky on the bottom. And analysis of that to</span><span>ld me what the relationship was </span><span>between the water and the sediment, assuming it had been running for many year</span><span>s, and had time to come to equilibrium. </span><span>So I developed the equation for that, whic</span><span>h included the radioactive half-</span><span>life of the</span><span> elements. And that was used in </span><span>several instances in impact statements about</span><span>--</span><span>I think it was '59, t</span><span>hey had something called a Calve</span><span>rt Cliffs </span><span>Decision, in which they were trying to build a reactor. And the government wa</span><span>s forced to do an environmental </span><span>impact statement on every existing</span><span> reactor and every new reactor. </span><span>First rule was 100 pages</span><span>’ length. But it still grew,</span><span> because people were copy</span><span>ing what other people had done. Well, this flew, so we'll put it in. </span><span>Then they add unique things to their site. And it kept growing and growing. But the</span><span>re were 50 reactors that had to </span><span>have impact statements. And they split it up three ways between</span><span> Argonne</span><span> Nat</span><span>ional Laboratory, Oak Ridge, and Hanford. </span><span>And I got involved in the Hanford one. First time I used my sediment model was </span><span>for plants on the shore of Lake </span><span>Michigan, and exposure to people standing on the shoreline</span><span>--</span><span>first time I used it off-site. And we calculated the </span><span>dose someone might receive from the sediment contaminated from the water which came from the reactor outlet</span><span> that was dilut</span><span>ed before it got to where the fishermen was. So that was added to the impact statement, along with </span><span>the fish, and</span><span> all</span><span> the other stuff that we normally did.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Hanford, of course, when you first arrived was all about prod</span><span>uction. But at some point that </span><span>shifted to cleanup. Did </span><span>that shift impact your work in anyway?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, yes and no.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> It changed exactly what I was doing. But I was still doing environmental stuff. </span><span>For cleanup</span><span>—</span><span>well, before that we were doing impact statements for new things at Hanford, like a front end for</span><span> PUREX to do</span><span> 100</span><span> N</span><span> fuel, and all kinds of stuff. Afterwards, I was doing impact statements and studies for</span><span>proposed cleanup. There was a big, fat three-volume document</span><span>--</span><span>I think it was SWASH</span><span> 1400, it started out. It</span><span> ended up being ERDA</span><span> 1400. </span><span>And in there, they studied every possible waste source, contamination source, potential for accidents and </span><span>exposure. And I did a lot of </span><span>those calculations. So one thing they wanted, which is very current today, they wanted </span><span>to know, what would happen if a tank leaked? </span><span>They said, what would happen if 1,000 gallons of tank leaked all at once</span><span>? So I got a guy, Andy </span><span>Reisenhau</span><span>er</span><span>, in</span><span> the</span><span> water department we called them. He was doing ground water studies. </span><span>And he figured it out. With this modeling, he showed how small the contaminated area would be, and how,</span><span> essentially</span><span> harmless and well-confined to the immediate vicinity it was. And I get all upset now a days about the </span><span>clamor about everybody that don't understand what's going on, even the governor. </span><span>[LAUGHTER] </span><span>At least he tried.</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So when you started working for GE, what other contractors</span><span>--</span><span>you worked for Battelle?</span><span> Is that right?</span></div>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Soldat</span>: Yeah. Battelle </span><span>just took over everything we were doing. Almost all people came directly to </span><span>Battelle.</span><span> There were a</span><span> few that stayed in the 200 A</span><span>reas the reprocessing areas. B</span><span>ut some of them later came to Battelle. </span><span>So a few </span><span>stayed out there, worked for the various contractors they had. </span><span>But it was nice, because having been altogether in GE, I could still communicate with those people when I needed </span><span>information and data on releases, and access, and things. I could talk to them directly. I didn't have to go up and </span><span>down the channels.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>You mentioned earlier that you had written a secret report. And you had to go back and look at it, they </span><span>initially </span><span>told you </span><span>you couldn't. As a site that, obviously, emphasized security and secrecy, I wonder if you could talk about how the </span><span>emphasis on secrecy and security impacted your work in any</span><span>way.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, I told you what happened to me</span><span> when I was working in the 700 A</span><span>rea. And I </span><span>got here in</span><span> '48. In '53,</span><span> they renewed the Q</span><span> clearances. I got called in the FBI for interview. </span><span>They said, when you were in college</span><span>—</span><span>that's like in '46 or '47</span><span>--</span><span>you attended a meeting of, I think it was, SDS, </span><span>which was supposed to be a Communist-related organization. They had a meeting in the park. </span><span>They were complaining about their treatment. And it was a big hullabaloo. And I decided I'd go down and see what </span><span>was going on. </span><span>Apparently, they had spies watching all these people. So they started asking me questions about that. And I </span><span>explained it away to their satisfactio</span><span>n. They said, do you ever read </span><span>T</span><span>he Communist Manifesto</span><span>? I said, no, but </span><span>maybe I should someday.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>When you first started working there, did you take the bus out to the site?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Pardon?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>When you first started working there, how did you get to the site and back? Did you take the bus out? Did you </span><span>drive a car?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>There was no background checks when I first came, because I had that work card. It took them five months to do </span><span>all the investigations of relatives and friends to find out if I was reliable. And I</span><span> finally got my Q clearance. </span><span>But they may have reviewed things other than that one I know about since. But the FBI was doing it at that time. </span><span>Later on, they farmed it out to a different government agency. And I don't think the checks were quite as thorough </span><span>at that time. </span><span>But you couldn't drive through the project like you can today. When you want to go to the west side, you can drive </span><span>down towards Vantage through the project. It's all right. But it used to be all sealed off. You had to go around by </span><span>Robinson's barn to get where you're going.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And when you went through security at the gate, did you have to show a badge?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, after I got my clearance, they checked everybody's badge go</span><span>ing through. At one time in 300 A</span><span>rea, they had </span><span>a badge rack. You would put your badge in the rack to go home. They didn't want you taking it off site. </span><span>Well, one thing, you might get exposed from TV.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> The old TV sets had a relatively high energy coming out at the </span><span>bottom. Some kid sat there with his feet under the TV set, he might get a little bit of exposure. </span><span>And so one day, I wore some radiation dosimeters, those pencil dosimeters on myself while I was watching TV at </span><span>a distance. And then I put some by the TV set to compare the readings. And there was a small difference.</span><span> [LAUGHTER] Yeah, a</span><span>t first, </span><span>I thought security was a little lax because of the way they w</span><span>ere letting you go through 700 A</span><span>rea</span><span>,</span><span> first few months. </span><span>But it got pretty tight afterwards.</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Were there any events or incidents, anything that happened</span><span>—accidents of any kind, </span><span>that happened when you </span><span>were working at Hanford, or strange occurrences? Anything sort of stand out in your mind?</span></div>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, there was a few, of course. They had limit</span><span>s they set on the releases for i</span><span>odine-131. They had an experiment </span><span>in whi</span><span>ch they wanted to have short coole</span><span>d fuel, which would have more iodine in it, to released short-lived inert </span><span>gases like Xenon and Krypton to the atmosphere so the Air Force could fly around with a plane and measure it. </span><span>As I figure out, the idea was they could fly around Russia and see what kind of production they might be having </span><span>from what they could detect in the air over a facility. Well, when they had</span><span>—</span><span>it's called a green run, when they had </span><span>that, the iodine came out. A</span><span>nd there was a little bit of to-</span><span>do about that in later years, and people being exposed. </span><span>And even before the iodine releases were controlled, there was quite a few releases. But in later years, I used my</span><span> rules of thumb I learned, and</span><span> my models to predict what doses probably were in the early years before they had </span><span>reconstruction done. And I came probably within a factor of two of what they spent millions of dollars to calculate.</span><span> [LAUGHTER] </span><span>But that was one thing. And then they had some fuel that was mislab</span><span>eled, and it was short cooled, t</span><span>hat released </span><span>iodine in t</span><span>he 200 A</span><span>reas. </span><span>And we went out and studied the vegetation on the project, and all around. Well, it turns out the iodine was held in </span><span>the tanks for a while. And the vegetation that we measured didn't have any until they transferred the solution to </span><span>another tank. </span><span>Then the iodine escaped. And then we could find it on the vegeta</span><span>tion—we found it in the Pasco a</span><span>rea, and West </span><span>Richland. And the meteorological group predicted it would</span><span>--</span><span>according to the weather, it should</span><span> be</span><span> high in north of </span><span>Pasco. Well, it wasn't high there. </span><span>It was higher in Benton City than it was in Richland. An</span><span>d there was a Benton City farm tha</span><span>t had milk. And we sampled </span><span>that milk every day for a long time, and plotted the curve as it decayed. </span><span>And I backtracked it for a couple of days that we had missed. And I calculated the radiation dose a kid might have </span><span>drinking that milk. And the standard model was one liter of milk a day. </span><span>And I calculated all that. And we couldn't get the kids to come in to get a thyroid check for a</span><span>while. The mother was </span><span>reluctant. Finally, he came in months later. And at that point, I predicted the thyroid burden ought to be 70 </span><span>picocuries. And it turned out, he was measured 72 picocuries.</span><span> Then s</span><span>omething really interesting happened with that. Some anti-</span><span>nuclears</span><span> said that I had reported on thi</span><span>s thing, a</span><span>nd the </span><span>dose was less than a fraction of the limits. So it's all right to die by a fraction at a time. </span><span>Somebody else picked that up, and said I had pin pointed the death of a small child drinking that milk. So some</span><span> guy from Oak Ri</span><span>dge, his name was Piper, investigated all this stuff, and tried to put everything straight, and </span><span>straighten out all these misconceptions. But you can see what happens to the press.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So what time period was that?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>That was in '63. It's all publ</span><span>ished in </span><span>Health Physics Journal</span><span>, and all that stuff. They had an iodine symposium in</span><span> 1963—</span><span>a biology symposium. People all over the world came here. </span><span>And we met in the old community house, this little anteroom off to the side, with swamp coolers. And it was 116 in </span><span>Pasco.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> It was a mess. </span><span>But we published a whole book of the papers. And I have a couple in here, at least by abstract anyway. I learned a</span><span>lot about the different factors, again, and improved my knowledge of what was going on.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So when there were releases of iodine, you were involved in calculating the--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Measurements?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah, another thin</span><span>g I did was I stood out by a met</span><span> tower wearing a respirator device that </span>measured my <span>breathing rate by volume. And they released iodine</span><span>--</span><span>I think it was 135 or 132, a real short </span><span>half life</span><span>--</span><span>that</span><span> another </span><span>guy</span><span> and I</span><span> could stand there and inhale. And then we went and got our thyroids counted, and watched the decay, and </span><span>integrated the whole thing. </span><span>And my </span><span>total dose was probably about ten</span><span> mil</span><span>lirem</span><span>, compared to the limit, which was 1,500 a year at that time. Herb </span><span>Parker got real mad, because we hadn't chec</span><span>ked with him to see if it was okay</span><span>. He said we should have our thyroids </span><span>examined before we did it.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So you were used as test subjects?</span></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span>Solda</span></span><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">t</span>: The other release was from RE</span><span>DOX</span><span>--</span><span>ruthenium</span><span>--</span><span>there was two </span><span>rutheniums</span><span>:</span><span> 106, and 103. And the scrubber in the </span><span>plant that was supposed to remove these from their exhaust failed. And it released about 40 curie of ruthenium </span><span>out the stack. </span><span>It was detectable on Wahluke Slope, and all the way up just southeast of Spokane. It missed all of real good </span><span>farms, and everything, fortunately. So we went up collecting a lot of samples from that. </span><span>Then there was a contamination on Hanford itself on the roofs of some of the buildings and the ground. So that </span><span>was all cleaned up. I spent some time monitoring transportation workers who were going around picking up</span><span> particles around the 200 A</span><span>reas. </span><span>The other thing that happened is they found radioactive rabbits and coyotes</span><span>--</span><span>BC trenches, in 2 </span><span>East</span><span> Area</span><span>. They </span><span>disposed of waste which had cesium. And, of course, it's a salt relative to sod</span><span>ium in the</span><span> nuclei</span><span>c</span><span> chart. </span><span>And the rabbits got in there were eating the waste with the cesium, and digging down. And the coyotes were </span><span>eating the rabbits. And so we were finding this contaminated environment, and traced it down to that. </span><span>It didn't travel more than a mile or two. Rabbits have a very short range. They don't travel more than a couple </span><span>miles. And so that had to all get cleaned up, and cove</span><span>red over, put to rest. There</span><span> was a few things like that.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Did any of these incidents or releases</span><span>--</span><span>were there ever any that you looked at, studied, calculated, and found</span><span> that</span><span> it </span><span>was a risk to employees, or to the public at all?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>No, most of them were</span><span>--</span><span>the release of the strontium, the </span><span>highest concentration found at Wahluke Slope </span><span>across the river was</span><span>--</span><span>if a guy stood there and breathed the whole time the cloud time went by, he might have got </span><span>80 milligram to the lungs. And, of course, at that time, we were getting 100 milligram a year from radiation. And </span><span>the limit to the public was 1,500. So, really, it wasn't that significant.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I wanted to ask you about a little bit different part of it. President Kenned</span><span>y visited in 1963 to open the N </span><span>Reactor.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah, I want to see--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Were you there? Were you part of it?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>I was standing far back in the</span><span> crowd</span><span>. And I could barely see the President. They opened up to the site to the </span><span>public to go there. And I rode with a friend. And he and his son went with me. We watched that thing.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Do you rememb</span><span>er anything else about that day?</span><span> Or just being really far away?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, I remember when the helicopter landed with the President inside it</span><span>,</span><span> kicked up an awful lot of dust. I was glad </span><span>that maybe it wasn't all that contaminated for people to breathe.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Do you remember any other time when any dignitaries came to the site?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Yeah, I just noticed something I looked at this week. Nixon visited Battelle facilities, the main research building. </span><span>And Ronald Re</span><span>a</span><span>gan was here one time.</span></p>
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</div>
<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I wondered what you would consider the greatest challenges you had during your years working Hanford, and the </span><span>greatest rewards?</span></div>
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<div>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, I don't know. The least of my challenges was working with administration, because usually they managed to </span><span>turn me loose when they found out what I was doing. I think that the challenge was finding data in the open </span><span>literature that I could use to put into my models. I'd go to the library in those days, you would ask for literature, and </span><span>sit down, and read it, and take notes</span><span>—</span><span>not like today. </span><span>So I found things, eventually, from researche</span><span>rs in Russia who had studied </span><span>uptake</span><span> and radionuclides in </span><span>fish,</span><span> and studies at Oak R</span><span>idge on fallout in cattle, and all these things. But finding data was a little hard, not because it </span><span>was classified. But </span><span>it was in the open literature, a</span><span>nd you had to think about where it might be located. That was </span><span>one of my most challenging things. </span><span>The other challenge was to learning how to use Word Perfect. </span><span>[LAUGHTER] </span><span>My secretary forced me to learn it. She helped </span><span>teach me because she couldn't read my handwriting. That was a challenge for a while. I still have trouble with </span><span>computers. </span><span>But I think the biggest reward was all of the recognition I got from management, and Health Physics Society, and </span><span>other grou</span><span>ps. I got a file about that thick that I labeled K</span><span>u</span><span>dos. And when they have the r</span><span>ecouplex incident in 234</span><span>-</span><span>5</span><span>that had a solution that wasn't handled right. And it had a</span><span> nuclear</span><span> re</span><span>action, in an outfit called recouplex. </span><span>We worked a week or so overtime in evening, and around the clock some of us, working on the effects of that, and </span><span>the dose to the people. And I had measurements of the stack ga</span><span>ses. And I predicted from the st</span><span>ack gases how </span><span>many fissions had occurred in that pot. And then the other guys, the real nuclear experts, came and did theirs. </span><span>And we agreed within a factor of two again. </span><span>But, yeah, it never really did much off-site again</span><span>. It dissipated before it got </span><span>anywheres</span><span>. We plotted the path, a</span><span>nd by the time it reached the boundary of the site over towards Pas</span><span>co it was essentially nothing. B</span><span>ecause when</span><span>you have a nuclear reaction like that, </span><span>you generate a lot of short-lived</span><span> radionuclide</span><span>s with seconds, and minutes, and </span><span>days. And so it really wasn't that effective off-site.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>What was the time period of that incident?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>I want to say April '62, I guess.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Being involved in environmental monitoring, and monitoring the effects of releases and that sort of thing, did you </span><span>at any point</span><span>—</span><span>it seems like at some point, nuclear power became</span><span>--</span><span>like, certa</span><span>in groups opposed that, right?</span><span> You had</span><span>groups that</span><span> became</span><span> opposed </span><span>to </span><span>nuclear power</span><span>, and the use of--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Obtained what?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Opposed to nuclear power--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Oh, oh.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Anti-nuclear stuff. D</span><span>id you feel that at all at work</span><span>, I mean or stuff you were involved in</span><span>?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Soldat</span>: </span><span>Well, yeah</span><span>--</span><span>well, there are people off-</span><span>site who</span><span>--</span><span>that story I told you about that small child. And then there was </span><span>another guy, he worked at the University of Pittsburgh. I'm trying to remember his name. </span><span>He predicted all the dire re</span><span>sults of fallout from strontium-90. He gave a talk at strontium-</span><span>90 symposium in biology</span><span>put on here one time. </span><span>And he came to me a</span><span>nd says, I need to get my slides remade. </span><span>What he was doing was correlating</span><span> the concentration of strontium-</span><span>90 in milk and leukemia in children. Well, this </span><span>curve went to pot. And he decided he needed to summarize, average it, over two years. And eventually that went </span><span>to pot. It didn't work. </span><span>So then he eventually tried four years. And he asked me if I could get his slides rebuilt for his talk so he could use </span><span>them for a four-ye</span><span>ar average. So I went to Bill Bair who</span><span> was the manager of the symposium. </span><span>And he said, sure, we'll do it for him. And </span>they did. And he used them. Of course, a lot of people in the audience <span>knew better than to believe what he was saying.</span></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you would like to talk about? That I haven't asked you </span><span>about?<br /></span><br />Soldat: Well, I got some awards. I don't know if you're interested. The local chapter Health Physics Society gave me what's called a Herb Parker Award for Distinguished Service. And then I got elected fellow of the National Society. And then I got the National Distinguished Scientific Achievement Award from the Health Physics Society, which was sort of a review of my total career, and all the, quote, the great things that I had done. The environmental section in the National Health Physics Society established an award for environmental radioactivity measurements type of stuff. And a fellow, a friend, Jack Corley, who worked here, and I got the first ones that they awarded for that as distinguished service. And then I got a plaque from Bill Bair when he was retiring. So he's such a nice guy, he awarded about three or four plaques to employees outlining their distinguished careers. I was one of them. And it's for all the work I had done on radioiodine. So I got that plaque.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you're involved in the Herbert Parker Foundation? Is that right? Are you part of that?</p>
<p>Soldat: I volunteered not to get involved in the Parker Foundation. I let Ron Kathren, and Bill Bair and Dale Denham, and all these guys do it. I worked for a little while after I retired for Dave Muller and Associates to help with the down-winders case, writings some papers on it, and releases, and another one with Jack Selby on plutonium releases from the 200 Areas that were used in the hearings for that business. I haven't really--well, people call me up every once in a while and ask questions—pro bono. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Overall, how would you assess your 47 years working at Hanford as a place to work?</p>
<p>Soldat: For me, it was a great job. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I had wonderful people, except maybe one case of this one boss. But totally great people, and I felt like I was doing something worth while. And it was useful. Later on, it got to be where everybody was writing impact statements, which are not a product. It bothered me a little bit. Even I got involved. And those were kind of necessary. EPA at one time says, we need you to calculate the effect of this dose out to the year 10,000. I said, what? So I got out my business card. And I changed it from environmental engineer to science fiction writer. [LAUGHTER] But I had a great time. I tried to get in the army when I first graduated from high school. And I couldn't because of my ears. And the Navy wouldn't take me because of my eyes, the program for officers. So I ended up—third choice was out here to do my part. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your stories with us, and your experiences. I appreciate it.</p>
<p>Soldat: I hope it's been useful.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yes. Thank you.</p>
<p>Soldat: Yeah, just carrying this around helped me remember.</p>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
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00:53:44
Bit Rate/Frequency
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209 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
700 Area
2-East Area
329 Building
300 Area
200 Area
N Reactor
703 Building
716 Building
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1948-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1948-1995
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
McKee, Bob
Baker, Dave
Healy, Jack
Templeton, Bill
Harr, Dennis
Perkins, Dick
Andy Reisenhauer
Parker, Herb
Corley, Jack
Kathren, Ron
Bair, Bill
Denham, Dale
Muller, Dave
Selby, Jack
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Joe Soldat
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Joe Soldat conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
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2016-06-30: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Subject
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Richland (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Date
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8/6/2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
2-East Area
200 Area
300 Area
329 Building
700 Area
703 Building
716 Building
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
N Reactor
Pasco (Wash.)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fecf6d23f2029be8777f7364c6e43f6d1.jpg
107947d118ec8047404f520b29342bda
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff48f8f7243653d2a40990d75bedb74ff.mp4
3bd7a80a24bfec4a2e2d7085d4e15964
Dublin Core
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Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sutter, Sue
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Sutter_Sue</strong></p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Well, I think we're ready to get started.</p>
<p>Sue Sutter: All right.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let's start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p>Sutter: Sue Sutter, S-U-T-T-E-R.</p>
<p>Bauman: Great, thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on July 23<sup>rd</sup> of 2014, on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if you could start by telling us, first of all, when you came to Hanford and what brought you here.</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, it all started when I was in college. I was at Washington State. It was a college then. And they came up there and interviewed, and they gave most of us jobs. They needed warm bodies down here. And so I had a job when I came down here in June 21<sup>st</sup> of 1948.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what did you major in in college at WS--?</p>
<p>Sutter: Chemistry. They needed a lot of chemists. And then when I came here, my folks brought me over from Seattle in a car. And we came to North Richland. Well, I signed in downtown, and we came out to North Richland, where I was supposed to go. And where I was assigned to live, at least temporarily, was in North Richland. It had a wire, a cyclone fence around it, topped by three rows of barbed wire. I think it was made for prisoners of war or something like that. I didn't think my parents were going to leave me there, but they did. And I'd never seen one before. They had a community shower, you know, like the men have. I was the only person there. And the next day, they found me a place downtown. I was in W5. W5 was the women's dorm. And it was right above the Green Hut Cafe, where everybody ate all the time, because that's about what it was, that and Thrifty Drug. And when I was there, I met some of the—it was when I was going through the hospital, one of my friends from college was working there, and she happened to be in the same dorm. And I went. That was about it. And I don't remember starting work. And where do you want to go from here now?</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, what was your first job? What sort of work were you doing?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, what they called essential materials. It was in 300 Area. And everything that came on to the plant had to be chemically verified. And that was what that job was. And I was working there for about three years. And then I got married. That's where I met my husband. He was in the lab, too—a chemist.</p>
<p>Bauman: What were your first impressions when you arrived in the area here? Do you remember?</p>
<p>Sutter: No, I don't. After you've gone away to college, I went over on the train from college, you're used to things changing at that time. It didn't strike me as odd at all. What was odd was that when I first came, I was in North Richland and I had to eat out of the cafeteria there. And it was all full of construction workers. [LAUGHTER] But I survived. But I was only out there a couple of days, and then I moved to town.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you said you worked for three years out at the 300 Area then?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you met your husband. Was your husband also working there?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah, we were in 3706 Building, which has long since been destroyed.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you mentioned your dorm was right above the cafe.</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah. Oh, that's it. And there were a lot of young people here. They had money and no place to go. And so every weekend—a few of them had cars—so we all left town. And we went down to Lost Lake in Oregon on one trip. And I remember one trip we went to Long Beach, Washington, and just various around here. Because there was nothing here. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: I was going to ask you, was there anything in town for entertainment?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, I think there was a movie theater. And Thrifty Drug. I don't recall any particular entertainment. Of course, we were here for working. Well, that's why we left town.</p>
<p>Bauman: So after three years working at the 300 Area, you got married. Where did you live it at point then?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, we were able to get a house. Houses were assigned to married people. We lived on Farrell Lane. And we lived there for about three years. And then they decided they were going to sell all the houses, and that's when we bought the house in Kennewick. You have the information on selling the houses.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right, yes.</p>
<p>Sutter: We were the junior tenants in a duplex.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Sutter: And we moved to Kennewick, and we stayed there ever since. We were lucky to find a house that worked very well for us over there.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let's go back to your work, then, a little bit. What was your work like? How was it as a place to work, the 300 Area, when you were there?</p>
<p>Sutter: It was just a lab. There were a lot of funny people working there, different people working there. One of the technicians, she stole all the cheesecloth, and she wrapped it around her head and took it out with her every day. [LAUGHTER] But I can't remember much of working. I'm sorry.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's okay. That's fine. And did your husband continue working then there at the same area?</p>
<p>Sutter: No, after I got pregnant, I stayed home. And it was 1965, I think, when I went back to work. I worked for Battelle. And I worked there until I retired.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what kind of job was that?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, it varied. At Battelle, you do whatever needs to be done. And I was—I've forgotten. I was working at a lab at first. And I ended up helping with quality assurance for some of the people. That was a good job.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did you work there, then?</p>
<p>Sutter: I retired in 1968. Is that right?</p>
<p>Man one: I think it was after I got out of high school. Did you tell them about you were a wind tunnel scientist?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, yeah, I worked in atmospheric sciences after some time at Battelle. And I operated a wind tunnel. And this was for—they were trying to find out how much would blow around out on the site. And so we went out and picked up samples on the dirt. And then we put measured amounts in the wind tunnel and see how far it goes and how long it stayed there, that type of information. And all this went into the environmental impact statement that they had to make when they were operating. And the annoying thing is, everybody thought my husband did that work. [LAUGHTER] It's the way it was.</p>
<p>Bauman: When you first came in 1948 and were in the women's dorms, did you take buses to get out to the site?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yes. But I don't remember anything. I know we had to take buses. You could not drive cars in on the site then. Oh, that's it. We took one bus, and we went up to the bus lot, and then you got on to the bus that took you out to where you were working. Quite an operation.</p>
<p>Bauman: And when you then went back to work in the '60s, were you still taking buses? Or were you driving your own car out there?</p>
<p>Sutter: There were still buses. I've forgotten where I was working. And then for a while, when I got transferred out to the atmospheric sciences building, the meteorological station, I rode out to that area with my husband. Because he was in 2-West at that time. He was a supervisor.</p>
<p>Bauman: And when you started working in 1948 as a chemist, were there are a lot of other women chemists at Hanford at the time?</p>
<p>Sutter: There were several of us, about five or six—I mean, considering all, yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you lived in Richland for a while, got married, then you moved to Kennewick. Is that right?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. One of events that happened, I know, was in 1963, President Kennedy came to dedicate the N Reactor. Do you remember that at all?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, I remember it. I took my three children out there with me. I was not working then, and then we drove out there. And all I can remember is this one over here, she ran away. And I decided I wasn't going to even be worried about her, because I wanted to see Kennedy. He was quite a charismatic person. And Paul was there, too. We were all there. And I have another daughter, too.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember much about the day itself?</p>
<p>Sutter: It was about 80 degrees. Oh, and I can remember Kennedy was so surprised when he started the reactor with a probe of some kind. A lot of traffic. Took me a long time to get home. My husband had gone out there. Everybody who worked there went there on buses, and so he got home way long time before I did. [LAUGHTER] It was well attended.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember any other events or incidents, things that happened when you either were working at Hanford or living in the area here?</p>
<p>Sutter: I can't think of any right now.</p>
<p>Man one: What about your dorm social clubs?</p>
<p>Sutter: My what?</p>
<p>Man one: The social clubs in the dorm?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, yeah, we belonged to the dorm club. That's the one that we went someplace every weekend. That's just the dorm club. Oh, and they had dances in town, too. In fact, I think I brought over a picture of one of those if you—you can have them.</p>
<p>Bauman: Great.</p>
<p>Man one: The Sadie Hawkins Day dance.</p>
<p>Sutter: They don't have Sadie Hawkins anymore.</p>
<p>Bauman: They do, actually.</p>
<p>Sutter: Do they?</p>
<p>Bauman: The high schools do.</p>
<p>Sutter: Okay, but we were all just a little bit older. But you just had to make your own entertainment. And that was a good one.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you and your husband meet at work?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: At the 300 Area?</p>
<p>Sutter: Actually in 300 Area. Oh, and another thing we used to do is everybody drank beer. We'd go out by the Yakima River and drink beer after work in the evening, swing shift or something. It was just fun.</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hm. So you've seen a lot of change in the time that you--</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, my Lord, yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Obviously one change that happened at Hanford was a shift from production to cleanup.</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit.</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, all I did was run the wind tunnel. We generated information so they could do the environmental impact statement before they started doing something out there. And we'd go out in the field, and I know they had picked up all kind of material to run through the wind tunnel to see what happened to it.</p>
<p>Bauman: I know there was a lot of emphasis on security at Hanford and secrecy. Can you talk about that at all, what that was like?</p>
<p>Sutter: It was pretty straightforward. You had a badge, and you had to show it every time you went in and out. And it went pretty easily.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were you able to talk about your work at all?</p>
<p>Sutter: You weren't supposed to. But it wasn't interesting work, so I didn't want to talk about it anyway. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: And what about the community itself? How did that change over the years?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, the community, they built the ranch houses. And we got a lot of bad dust storms then. And I was home with children, and you just don't get out in the community much. There wasn't much here that’s all.</p>
<p>Man one: Mom?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yes?</p>
<p>Man one: Did you ever talk about an incident, I guess you were down on the river and security came out to see what you were doing or something like that?</p>
<p>Sutter: I don't remember anything like that.</p>
<p>Man one: Oh, okay. I thought I—Or boating or something and the army showed up?</p>
<p>Woman one: Well, there was a--</p>
<p>Sutter: You should have prepped me for this.</p>
<p>Woman one: Wasn't there a military base, too?</p>
<p>Sutter: A what?</p>
<p>Woman one: A military base out there, Camp Hanford?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, yeah, Camp Hanford was there for a while, yeah. I don't remember. I wasn't working when it was Camp Hanford. I can remember baking a cake for the soldiers. That's about it.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, did you?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was there a specific reason for baking a cake?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, I belonged to a club. And that was their project that they were on, and so I've participated, just once that I can remember. We lived in a B house. Oh, and all the coal was furnished free, coal furnace in the basement. [LAUGHTER] You don't know about those. My husband called it the iron monster because you'd have to bang it so it would start the next morning. He was on shift work, and it's not the best way to go.</p>
<p>Bauman: So were you renting the B house then?</p>
<p>Sutter: You paid some rent. There was nominal rent. It was cheap. And as I remember, they furnished the coal. And if something happened, you just called down, like my dear son, he's flushed potatoes down the toilet. And you'd call somebody, and the plumber comes out immediately and takes care of it.</p>
<p>Man one: And what did you do that night for dinner?</p>
<p>Sutter: I gave you potato soup. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So a lot of the service or repair work was--</p>
<p>Sutter: It was done by somebody. They were just like a landlord. But you had to mow the lawn and water it.</p>
<p>Bauman: You had to take care of yard, that sort of thing. So how long did your husband work at Hanford then?</p>
<p>Sutter: Until he retired. I think he worked there for 50 years. No, not that long.</p>
<p>Woman one: Well, if he was working in '76 when I was in high school.</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah, I don't remember how long. But he worked there until he retired. It was a good job. You could move from job to job at that time because it was all under one contractor. And he worked in 2 East and 2 West as well as I think North Richland.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what was the most challenging--was there any part of your work that you did at Hanford that you would think was sort of the most challenging thing that you did or the most rewarding?</p>
<p>Sutter: I think the most fun was just before I retired. It was when I was running a wind tunnel, and it was out in 2 East Area in an old evaporator building. I remember there were just the two of us. I was there with a technician, and we had a wind tunnel. And all these things that we’d gathered out on the terrain, we'd put them in the wind tunnel to see what they were going to do and how far they would go. And then this was put into a report that I wrote. And the annoying thing is, everybody thought my husband wrote it. Because they just put it with your initials.</p>
<p>Bauman: What were the findings of that report? Do you remember what did you--</p>
<p>Sutter: I have no idea. It didn't matter to us. This much went along, and if you're a researcher, you just give them the results. I think they were able to do all the work anyway. But it was fun. You'd go out, and you'd gather up these—there were rabbits out there. And they liked to sit on top of the hills. And so that was a rich place to get samples. Research is really fun work. Because it doesn't matter. You get an answer. And that's the answer. If they don't like it, that's their problem.</p>
<p>Bauman: Overall, then, how was Hanford as a place to work?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, I unfortunately had a manager—I shouldn't--he was Mormon. And he didn't think women should be working. However, the next level up really believed in women. So he's the one that--I was treasurer for the local ACS. And I wanted to go to the meeting in Hawai’i. And my immediate manager wouldn't let me, but the next one up sent me. When you're an officer, they usually will let you go to something like that. So that's how I got to Hawai’i. I figure all the men do it, and so I was trying to do the same thing.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's a good place to go for a conference.</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah, oh, yes. One of the women from another contractor was there, and she even came to the meetings in her bathing suit, if came at all. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: When was this about that you did that?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, I was still working, so I don't really--</p>
<p>Bauman: The '60s?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah. I can't remember that long ago.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet or that you haven't talked about that you think is important to talk about?</p>
<p>Sutter: No, I can't think of anything.</p>
<p>Man one: What was it like being a woman and working in this area, predominantly male?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, that didn't bother me except some of them are prejudiced against women. And actually, when I was out, we had the lab out where the wind tunnel in 2 East. And the fellow I worked with was really good. He was a farmer from over in Pasco. He raised apples. But he would just do anything that needed to be done. It didn't matter whether you were a woman or man. He'd do anything. Oh, the funny thing about that is the building that we had, they had a restroom in it. And they didn't have a door on it. So my manager had them put a door in it. But they put a door in it with a window. [LAUGHTER] So they had to change the door.</p>
<p>Bauman: That didn't help a whole lot, did it?</p>
<p>Sutter: No, but there were just the two of us working there. We had to report over to the Atmospheric Sciences building and then drive over to where the wind tunnel was.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, I see, okay.</p>
<p>Woman one: Mom, you shared with me the difficulty at getting a raise, the difficulty getting a raise in pay.</p>
<p>Bauman: Did you have difficulty getting a raise?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, yeah. My manager said the raise is--this is more than I wanted to give you. He wanted the raises for the men, because they have a family to take care of. He doesn't realize I have all these kids to take care of, too, and one daughter who went on to college and is now an engineer out there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were you able to get the raise?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, yeah, oh, yes. You have to be persistent.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you happen to remember what your salary was, say, when you started in 1948 at all?</p>
<p>Sutter: It's about $100 a week. I don't really remember. It was adequate for the time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember any other challenges being a woman working there in the 1940s and 1960s?</p>
<p>Sutter: Well, like that this one manager who just didn't believe in women.</p>
<p>Bauman: But you said the person above him--</p>
<p>Sutter: Just fine person, yeah. And that's always helpful.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. I don't think I have any more questions for you.</p>
<p>Man one: Oh, excuse me. What was it like raising us kids in an area that didn't have a lot of support services and it was just all your contemporaries and nobody had any relatives in town or anything like that?</p>
<p>Sutter: I never thought about it.</p>
<p>Man one: It was what it was and you just coped with it?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah. Oh, and then I remember we babysat back and forth. I remember my friend Dusty was babysitting and Paul, all he'd do is hide in the closet. [LAUGHTER] That was a long time ago.</p>
<p>Bauman: But you'd find ways to help each other out?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Take care of the kids.</p>
<p>Woman one: And Dad was from--where was Dad from? New York?</p>
<p>Man one: Yeah, he went to University of Buffalo and was recruited out there.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you mentioned you went to Washington State College. Where were you from initially? When did you grow up?</p>
<p>Sutter: I was grown up in Seattle.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Sutter: And I went to college starting in home economics, and that's a dumb major. They don't give you anything challenging. And the only thing I liked the first year was chemistry, and that's why I majored in that.</p>
<p>Man one: I was curious. I kind of recalled once hearing a story about the way you met Dad was you accidentally left some battery acid on a stool or something like this? And it left a stain on his pants?</p>
<p>Sutter: I don't remember anything like that. No, he was just out there in the same lab. And then he was in this group that went on trips. He was one with a car!</p>
<p>Man one: So that made him popular?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: So he went on some of these trips. You were part of the group?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah. Oh, we went down to Lost Lake in Oregon. I can remember that. And I knew Steve Buckingham. We were up there. Snow was on the ground. And he went in the water. And he said, it's warm! I can remember that one.</p>
<p>Man one: How many people would go on the trips?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah.</p>
<p>Man one: I mean, it was like four or five?</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah, about that, because you just had cars. You didn't have anything big. There were no buses or anything taking you.</p>
<p>Woman one: So lack of family support, you built some really good friendships that you still have now.</p>
<p>Sutter: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: About how often did you go on these trips?</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, I'd say once a month or something. There was various degrees. It depends on what came to mind, what the people wanted.</p>
<p>Man one; What about the one where you left town and you got someplace and set up camp in the middle the night and Steve Buckingham found a--</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, yeah, we were going over to Orcas Island. That was where we were going. And so we camped near Anacortes, and it was dark. And when we woke up, we found we camped in the garbage dump. [LAUGHTER] We went on our trip.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's a great story. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories. And we're going to go ahead and make copies of the photos that you brought in.</p>
<p>Sutter: Oh, yeah, they're over there. I don't know. A lot of them you don't want.</p>
<p>Man one: Oh, I don't know. There's a lot of them that were--</p>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:26:58
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
250 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
3706 building
200 west area
200 east area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1948-2014
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca1948-1968
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F.
Buckingham, Steve
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Sue Sutter
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Sue Sutter conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-7-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item."
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-07: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
200 Area
300 Area
Building 3706
Housing
Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963
Richland (Wash.)
Secrecy
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdb714eb8d8af5be33e073536fd17169c.jpg
e55e4b7cf327dc0066589efabaeb5c28
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2c61ccb81c1d241e7db21d35f880460f.mp4
298b9aae8aac97fb3171e3ee0b45a7b5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sather, Virginia
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Sather_Virginia</p>
<p>Man one: Yes. I’m recording. And okay.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Okay. We're going to go ahead and get started. I thought we'd start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p>Virginia Sather: Virginia Sather--S-A-T-H-E-R.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thank you. My name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is October 16<sup>th</sup>, 2013. And we're recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me what brought you to Hanford, when you came here, why you came.</p>
<p>Sather: Well, I was working at a Navy hospital near Los Angeles, California in what they called ship service. It's a PX in the Army. And I was more or less recruited to work in the PX at Hanford Recreation Building, and in that building, they had a beer hall, and a soda fountain, and a ten-pin bowling alley, and the PX. Just kind of a service place where everything was based on the Army. The barracks and mess halls, it was all Army language. I'd been used to Navy language. And I called my sister, and I was telling her about it in Des Moines, Iowa where I was born and raised, and oh, she said, that sounds good. They told us they'd pay our way out. And your room and board would be furnished in your pay. And if you stayed at least four months, you got your way paid back. So we thought, well, we could try for four months. Her husband had just been in the Medical Corps, and he'd been in the European theater. And at that time, they were sending some European theater people over to the Japanese theater, and she was going to be alone anyway, maybe ‘til the end of the war. So she said well, let's do it. So that's what we did. So we came into to Pasco in the middle of the night with the train. Next morning, came out to--taken out to Hanford and processed and all. Just everything, just click, click, click. And we got used to standing in line for everything. And I don't mean a little line. I mean like lines we'd never seen before--blocks long. One grocery store, one drugstore, one Sears order office. Just one of anything for 50,000, 60,000 people. That would be like having one of everything in Kennewick. So I don't know, we just--her husband—then his orders were changed, as sometimes happen in the military, at the last minute, he's actually on a ship going over to the Pacific area. And they changed, and he was sent back to the States. So she stayed her four months. By that time, she got this notice. And so she left, so I was on my own by then. And I just thought, well, I'll just stick it out because it's a pretty good job, and I met my husband-to-be, and I don't know. We kept thinking, well, when the war's over, we'll be laid off. The time came and went, and we didn't get laid off. And they shut down some reactors, and we said well, we're going to be laid off. At that time, I was working in a fuels production section for N Reactor and my husband was the manager in fuels production for the older reactors, what they called the Al-Si fuels. So we said, we're going to be laid off. They shut down the reactors, but they just took the Al-Si people and transferred them over to my section and I'm the one that got laid off. Other people got laid off. But I didn't actually get laid off, because we were on an excess list, and there was another opening in research and development. So I went there, and something—and then they dismantled that in three years. So then I went out to the N Reactor. So I was actually in several reactor areas and all the production separations areas. So when one door closed, another one opened up, and I just was flexible enough to go with the flow. And here I am, 40 years later. Well actually, I worked 40 years, so it's 70 years later because I've been retired for 30 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember your first impressions when you--coming from Los Angeles to Pasco and Richland?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, of course, the area surrounding Los Angeles is actually a semi-desert. And of course, everything was dug up, so there was just dust, dust everywhere, just heavy equipment everywhere—the whole 600 square miles. And there was a lack of a lot to do because the hospital where I worked was about 40 miles. It'd been a former country club when the Navy took it over. And had indoor pools, outdoor pools, golf course, and the whole nine yards, so there was lots to do. And on the weekends, we'd go into LA or wherever, Hollywood, everywhere, sometimes clear to San Diego if we could--transportation was very scarce during the war. Find somebody who had gas and hitch a ride. [LAUGHTER] And yeah, that was my first impression. I guess I was like most people. I must've missed something when I was in my geography class in grade school, because I, like a lot of people, I was looking for forests and mountains. But I was used to flat-flat coming from Iowa. But of course, there was lots of woods in Iowa. I guess being young--I don't know. What was I? 21, 20, 21. I guess I was 21. Yeah, I was very flexible. I had changed jobs different times before. I guess I was kind of adventuresome for those times. Sometimes the older people criticized me because by the time I was 21, I'd been in several states. One summer, my cousin and her husband had a carnival that went all over the South and Midwest, and they took me on one summer and I travelled with that carnival. So I just got used to making do, also just making do, not expecting any luxuries, places to stay, or anything like that. So it was primitive. The barracks were just bare floors and cots and a washroom. They were H shaped, so the cross in the center was the wash rooms and the barbed wire all around. Looked more like a prison camp, actually. I know when we moved to Richland and they had a Prisoner-of-War camp out on the Yakima River near the dam, Horn Rapids, near there. And we went to Benton City by way of that road one time, and we saw that, and I said, oh, look. It looks like the Hanford—[LAUGHTER]—original Hanford. Yeah, it's kind of primitive, but I think young people nowadays may be kind of spoiled. I don't know whether they would really put up with that, what we put up with then.</p>
<p>Bauman: You said you were sort of recruited. What were you told about Hanford? Did you know what was being worked on?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, actually, they talked to me first about Alaska. And then even before I talked to my sister about it, a recruiter called me and said, oh, the weather has been so bad out there, they put a stop to everything for a while. But I've got this place that's just as good in eastern Washington. And there's going to be a lot of young people. It turned out, there was a lot of old people, too, because the middle type people were in the army or in the military. And of course, there was probably 100 men to every female. There were just very few women. And mostly because of the housing, because a lot of women in those days would be married by that time. And if they came, it was the same situation. You still had to be separated in the barracks. And the men didn't like that at all, so they'd go to Yakima or Walla Walla or someplace searching for housing. But the women liked it, because the housekeeping was all done for you. The beds were made, the linens were changed, the bathroom was cleaned, and you had the mess hall, all the food you wanted at the mess hall. I think the women really liked it. Of course, I was not married and didn't have any children, but the ones that did, I think they thought it was kind of a vacation.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did you stay in the dormitories then—or the barracks?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, the dormitories were in Richland, so--</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, the barracks--</p>
<p>Sather: Yeah, we can't say dormitories because they weren't that fancy. They were built in Richland for the operation people. That's where people's going to stay. They must have opened in '45 down on Lee Boulevard. One of the buildings is still there on the corner across from the Federal Building. That was the cafeteria. Then they all down Lee and Knight Street where they had the post office and the bank. They were two-story dormitories, and I never lived in there because by that time, I was married. So then we were assigned to a house in Richland.</p>
<p>Bauman: How long were you in the women's barracks then?</p>
<p>Sather: Oh, '43, '44. Pretty close to two. We closed out Hanford like about, well, right after the war was over. We got our house in '44, and I know I was commuting for a while to Hanford, probably a year and a half. And then we got a house—couldn't get any houses ‘til probably late '44. We got a house in Richland, and we were there ten years, and then we built the house in Kennewick up by the mall, and we've been there ever since.</p>
<p>Bauman: You said you met your husband here. How did the two of you meet and where was he working?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, people laugh when they hear this story. I have one girlfriend still left from my graduating class, same age I am. She lives out in Manhattan Beach. So when I was in California, she'd gone out with her folks after high school because of the airplane factories, and so we kept in touch. And I saw a lot of her and everything, and she asked my husband about it one time. She asked him, she said, what did you like about Ginger—I was known as Ginger—when you first met her? And he said her spirit, her spirit! And Betty Jean said, have you got enough spirit yet? He said, just about. I think we'd been married about 50 years by then and now we're coming up on 70 now. But I don't know. I was on an afternoon shift at that time, and afternoon shift, we went to--we worked six days, ten to 12 hour days. Supposed to be ten, but people didn't show up. They were gone. People just disappeared. The rules and everything was so strict and security was so strict. Even after we moved into Richland, neighbors would just disappear, especially if they had unruly children. Any little infraction or anything like that, you could disappear. And the FBI, they had total control. It was really like some third world country there for a long while until the city was sold in '58. Your boss or the top guy in DuPont or General Electric, United Nuclear, they could not—caught with a weapon or drinking or any type of malfeasance, I mean, you just disappeared. I mean, no 30 day notice or anything. Looked up, the house was empty. Or maybe you'd look out and see a moving van. Yeah, it was strict. Well anyway, we would have a ten or 12 hour shift. So they had eight mess halls. They could serve 5,000 people in each one of those at a time, and the only one that was 24 hours was number eight. So usually, you'd go with some of your coworkers there after your shift. So he was there. There'd been a guy about age and my father who would come in when it was spare time. He'd talk to me there at the register, at the PX. And he kept telling me, I've got this roommate, this fellow, he's about your age. And I think you should meet him. And I kept thinking, oh my God. What's he trying to pawn off on me? And he kept it up and kept it up, and I kept telling him I was busy or I was booked up or something, anything. But anyway, I got caught dead. He came over to my table at this mess hall in the middle of the night at the end of the shift. I think we got off at midnight that night. And he came dragging this poor guy over. You could tell he didn't want to come. He just had a hold of him and actually pulling him over, and my husband's 6'3" and 189 pounds. [LAUGHTER] And this guy, Reardon, his name was Reardon, he says, this is Dick Sather, and I told him you wanted to meet him. Oh, I'm telling you, it was a good thing there was the rules. And so I said, not particularly. And he went on and so, well he said, well don't you want him to just sit down and visit with you? I said, not particularly. I remember everything he said. People still tease me about it. Not particularly. And my husband the same coloring that I am, but his face still turned red. And of course, he didn't know what to do, young, naive boy. He's six months older than I am. Anyway, so the next time they both came over to my register--and of course they bought some, I don't know, shaving lotion or something. Anyway, so then my husband started coming in. Then it graduated till we went over and sat down in the soda pop place and had soda pop and visited. Well, that went on for about three weeks, and I didn't find out till very much later that my husband-to-be was dating a gal, and he was booked up for this time. And so he was just playing it cool till he could get rid of this other gal, evidently. So anyway, I found that out. Even after I was married, this guy who got us together told me that. And so then we started, if you could call it dating when somebody drops you off in the middle of the night at a barbed wire fence with a guard. They had buses going to Walla Walla, Pasco, and Yakima, and it cost you a nickel. And they said they had to charge that because of the insurance rules. So on your day off--which usually, we got one day off--we would go, see a movie, have dinner and go back to our barracks, and it went like that. And so he bought me a ring. I think it was in March. I met him in January, I think, December. It might have been December, I think. And we were engaged, and then we married--but I didn't want to get married. He said, when do you want to get married? I said, about 30. I was thinking about 30. So then he started talking about, well, he was going to go to Alaska and all this, that and the other. So we had it set for May. My mother-in-law for years still sent my anniversary card in May, but they actually got married in June because they changed the date twice. We got married in June, so in coming June, I'll be married 70 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Wow.</p>
<p>Sather: But that's how we met, and that's just the opposite of me. I'm a class A, he's a class B. He's mostly Norwegian and he's pretty laid back. He's one of these, whatever. Whatever you want. Do what you want. Yeah, it's worked out very well, and he's not here with me now because he's lost his memory. Because he could tell you some tales, too.</p>
<p>Bauman: You talked about the buses going to Yakima and Walla Walla for entertainment. And was there ever entertainment on the site at all?</p>
<p>Sather: No, no. But the surrounding communities did not cater to us at all. You know now, you go to a convention or some big thing in the town, have sale signs and discounts at the restaurants and do everything to welcome you. No, they were very, very provincial. Well, so many of them either got displaced or knew or had a relative or somebody who was displaced because these towns were just seven miles apart. And the families in those times were practically incestuous. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I mean, they just were cousins and aunts and uncles. And I had to be careful because I might be talking to the wrong person. [LAUGHTER] But no, no. Although they tried to make all the money they could, divided their house--just like they did in California and still do--to illegal housing, turn the garage into a room and did everything to make money off of you. They didn't turn any of that down. But no, the natives, they were not friendly. A lot of people remarked on that. We were intruders, and I can see their point of view--we were. Tearing up their land, their orchards, and their vineyards, and their little mint fields, which is all the world to them. People back in those days had never really been out of the county. People didn't travel till the wartime. They didn't marry outside. Of course, with the wartime, they not only married people from another state, they married them from another country. But my time, of course, that was just unheard of ‘til wartime. And the only ones that were halfway decent that could think outside the box enough to see that it was for the war effort, even though they didn't know what it was. They just took it in their stride. But by and large, we later got personally acquainted and socially visited with some of the old timers here that the John Dam Plaza, the John Hazel Dam. He actually came from Norway, but he'd lived here most of his life. He came here as a young man, but there were several people like that. He had a store, a general store, there on George Washington Way. And I found out that this went on all over where people were displaced with--maybe not on that scale, but I mean, an airplane factory went in, or a shipyard went in, or something was expanded, and they got displaced because the government had the right of domain. And I think during the war, the President had all the executive powers that were ever heard of.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned that at some point, you were able to get a house.</p>
<p>Sather: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Where was that, in Richland? Or what sort of housing were you able to get then?</p>
<p>Sather: We got a house. It was a prefab, and I got--I think I gave them to the historical society down at the museum—where they came in sections, I think from Portland. And we were in that a little while, and I got up--it was December 1st. Turned out to be the coldest day of the year. And I smelled smoke. And they had heaters in the wall, 220 heaters in the wall. And then they had 220 wiring that ran inside a wood. Everything was plywood, and it was treated with a propellant, a subtype varnish or something. So it really went up fast. So then we got a pre-cut. And pieces like trusses and all were made in Spokane in a mill, and then came down and put together, there are not very many of those. One was two-bedroom and one was three-bedroom, so we were in that for a while till we built our house, five years I guess until we built our house. But when they did the fire investigation, we found out that's what it was, was electrical. I went in to grab some stuff out of the closets, and we didn't have closet doors, so we just had drapes across there—and they were on fire. But I just overreacted and I grabbed the hangers, which in those days were all wire, and I had blisters all over my hands, and all my hair in the front, my eyebrows were burnt off. So then we got this other house, this precut. And then the investigator came to us and showed us that. And then we went around all those prefabs and rewired them all after that. Because they said the houses they rewired, they found scorch marks in there. So there could've been a lot more fires. Yeah, yeah. So your name, your name just kind of came up. A lot of it was supposed to be your position. When they built the stick houses out here on the north end and right here, Harris Street, where they ended. When they started up there in up town, they started building--well up there about by Jefferson School, they started past there, building stick houses. They all went to management or up here on here, Harris. And in '58, when they sold the land, all that land was bare out there. And mostly, people who got the land--maybe they could afford it. I don't know why, but a lot of them said it was politics. But it was dentists and doctors and lawyers, but it was known--Davidson and Harrison, these streets out here--they were known as Pill and Drill Hill because of the doctors and the dentists out there. So a lot of it was by your position. A lot of it's the size of the family. And a lot of it, I think, just political, who you knew. You knew somebody in housing office. You really had it made. But your name would come up on a list, and they'd give you like three places to look at. Then you'd choose one.</p>
<p>Bauman: When did you find out exactly what Hanford's purpose was, that it was involved in production of--</p>
<p>Sather: Well, I was at work and—I don't remember now who it was. I was working in security at that time. I worked in security two different times early on. And then when they had the expansion and built what they called the Cold War reactors, they were going to have to process thousands of construction workers and support services out at North Richland, so I moved out there to North Richland and processed—Atkinson-Jones was the prime contractor, process all these people. So I was downtown with my first security job. The building's been torn down since. It was down in the region of the Federal Building next to the 703 Building that we also had at the Federal Building. I think it was my boss, Roy James, came in and said--and then people kind of didn't quite believe him at first there in the offices. And then, of course, I saw the newspapers--or at first, the local paper, <em>The Villager</em>. And it didn't really surprise people too much. I think after they heard--especially if you transferred around a bit—well, I know I was told I ask too many questions.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you worked in security a couple different times. What other sorts of jobs did you have?</p>
<p>Sather: Well first, when I went out there, my very first at the rec hall at Hanford, I was classified as a clerk. And then, let's see, where did I go from there? Oh, yeah. And then of course, then I was moved down to Richland for security. And then I went to 300 Area to instrument division. Then I went out to the hog and dog farm. When Battelle came and took over the Hanford laboratories--and I was in the laboratory building, I wasn't in the reactor building. That was F Reactor. They put up a big welcome sign there by the gate to F Area, and it said, welcome Baa-ttelle because they had so many sheep out there. They were testing. Well, then I asked for a transfer out of that because I started getting nauseated. And you know I was up there where they opened these—just like the steam would, like they just kind of boil these rats and stuff. They were trying to find out how much of that contamination would be in the bones. They had doctors, vets there, and everything like that. And I kept telling my supervisor, I don't think I can do this. And oh, he said, it's probably something else. Well, I was going out to the bus area, picking up the bus every morning, and it was in May, so I wasn't wearing a coat--because May can be pretty hot here--and I could see these other workers looking at my abdomen, and I think they thought it was morning sickness. But it wasn't to be for a long time. But anyway, I knew what he was thinking. And every area had a first aid station. Well, I'd go over to the first aid station. And I put off going out there, because you had to dress. You had booties and white coat and all that on. And I said, I get out in that fresh air and I'm fine, and I go back in—it was on the fourth floor. Well, after I left there, sometime after, I guess enough people complain that they change their ventilation system. But I know that's what it was, because I'm just kind of sensitive to scents anyway.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so what task did you have there?</p>
<p>Sather: Oh, well, of course they had all these precious metals, and they had gold, and they had silver, and they had alcohol. And all the supplies, everything. I even ordered dogs from the pound in Yakima. Had to be a certain size. And pigs—we had to have pigs a certain size. Just supplies. What did they call me? Buyer, yeah. But I had to keep track of all this, and they audited me on it. And because it wouldn't be past people to try to take alcohol, particularly. So all the supplies, ether, all kinds of stuff. And of course, your regular office supplies, medical supplies, all that kind of stuff. So I did that. Then I got transferred out of there. And I went out to 200 Areas to the separations building. And I was a secretary there. And then when I went out to BC Reactor, N Reactor, and research and development, all those places, I was executive secretary. I went to night school, CBC. And then I was an administrative assistant, and then I retired. I was a specialist, education training and development. Wrote training manuals and conducted training. Made overhead displays and stuff like that. So I was just kind of a Jack—Jill of all trades.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yes. You had a number of different positions, and yeah.</p>
<p>Sather: Oh, yeah. Well, they just asked me if I could do it, and when I said yes, and then I'd run home and call anybody I knew and say, how do you do this? Brush up on it and--</p>
<p>Bauman: Of the different positions you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most, that you really enjoyed, or maybe one that was sort of most difficult that are challenging?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, I forgot the two in between. I was in employee relations, and they wanted somebody to go to labor relations who was not connected with any union member. This was during the strike. I believe it was '63. It was a three-month strike of all the craftspeople. Those were trying times. And of course, nowadays with all the technology, it's hard to believe how they operated back then. But the union would get a proposal, type it up, take it to the employee relations people, and they'd study it, and send back an answer, and back and forth, and back and forth. So I really for the first time in a long time was working overtime, because they would be meeting long into the night sometimes. And I guess I was one of the few women who wasn't connected. I know all my friends, most of them were married to craftspeople, and my husband was a manager of maintenance at that time. So anyway, I did that until end of that—that was a temporary assignment. But then that's I guess how I got into the education training and development, because that was part of employee relations. So I was pretty flexible. And also in my studies, I learned that when you work long time a place, they're not going to get--they said three years. They're not going to get much more out of you, and you're not going to get much more out of them. In other words, you're going to get complacent. You're not going to grow that much. And along as far as any place was at PUREX. That was the newest separations plant. I was there six years. And I left there. The boss got mad at me, because he was on vacation when I took the job out at the BC Reactor. But they had a little thing going on. When jobs would come up, they didn't want you to move. They'd never tell you about it. There was no posting. Now posting is required, and we finally got posting to be required. Well, the man who took his place, when he was on vacation, he came back from a staff meeting. And when he came back from a staff meeting, he had me type up his meeting minutes for him so he could turn them over to my boss when he came back after two weeks. Well, I said, I'd like to interview for this job. It was a one rate hire because—that was another thing; your job was tied in with your manager's rate. You couldn't advance if you stayed with the same person unless he advanced. And there was a time or two when my boss advanced and I advanced with him, but normally, you're just stuck. It doesn't have anything to do with your job description or anything. Now, for the exempt people, it was different. They had a bunch of requirements, and it was all rated, and so many points signed, this and that and the other, and you'd be at level 12. Almost like the federal ratings. You'd be at level 12, or 15, or whatever. But the people working for them, the non-exempt people working for them, no. So anyway, I went out there and interviewed, and he said, well, you've got the job. And I said, well don't you have other people interviewing? He said yes, but he said I'm giving you the job. And I said, well. Then he said, I'm going to take you down the hall and introduce you to the rest of my staff. I said--of course I had been training managers for a long time--I said, you can't do that. You're going to have to go ahead and either interview or not interview or something. You can't just all of a sudden drop this on people. Oh, he said, thank you. He's the boss I had to change a lot of his letters. He was Scotch, and he had this temper, and he'd fire off letters and everything, and I'd put them in the bottom drawer. Sometimes I wouldn't even transcribe them. They'd lay there for a while. Sometimes he'd come in and say, what about that letter to that dude over in such and such an area? I said, oh, I've been so busy. I just haven't got around to it yet. Oh, he said, thank you, thank you. Because usually, he'd fire it off to somebody that he shouldn't have, somebody at a higher level. He was so funny. But anyway, I got that job. And then after that, after the civil rights legislation and all this equality and all this business, these federal jobs had to put quarterly reports into some committee in Washington, DC about what they were doing to even the playing field. And here they were saying they were posting jobs and they were doing this and that and the other. And just imagine these people typing up these reports and sending them in and everything, knowing a lot of it was a big lie. So finally, they revolted. And they were so scared they were going to join the union that they would do most anything to keep the white collar people out of the union. So finally, they changed it and started posting the jobs. But before that, it was just quite a bit about who you knew, or who you happened to run into, or maybe just by the grapevine to find an opening. So they had to quit doing that. But I thought, here these people, a lot of them have Master's and PhDs. How stupid can they be? Don't they think we read what we type up? [LAUGHTER] It was so funny. It was so funny. There was enough levity from time to time to make it interesting. There were practical jokes and things like that that went on.</p>
<p>Bauman: Earlier, you talked about the emphasis on security. You worked on security and secrecy and you talked about the FBI having a presence. Were you all aware of that? I mean, it was a real focus, and--</p>
<p>Sather: We got reminded all the time. And all the war plants in the room my friend there I'm talking about in California who worked a long time for Hughes Aircraft, they had big signs up and everything about the enemy’s listening and all that kind of stuff, and pictures, and little cartoons. And yeah, you were just reminded of it in a subtle fashion all the time. But now, just like when I married, I looked up one day and there were two FBI men there standing at my desk. I think I was coming back from the lunchroom and they were waiting for me. And they start questioning me, and I said, well I never planned to change my name. Of course, that was unheard of. Back then--I mean, it's common now. But they said, well, you know there's a law. You're going to have to change it. Well, I'd already researched it. Not that I'm smarter than the FBI, but I think you should get your facts before you expose yourself. And there never was a law. It was like something borrowed, something blue. It was tradition. So I said show me the law. So then they came back again a little bit later, and said, you're going to have to change your name. I don't know what they got all excited about because my husband worked here and had clearance and everything. And I said, well, it's not the law. And they said, no, but it's our policy and it's job requirement. I said, well, when I hired in, I didn't see any such requirement on my papers. They said, well, it's there now. [LAUGHTER] So I let it go for a while, and my husband said, oh, don't hassle it. Don't worry about it. He said, I know your name's as good as my name. He said, don't hassle it. So I guess he thought he might get fired. So anyway, I changed my name, changed my badge and all. I had to fill out umpteen papers again, the personnel security questionnaire. Everybody had to fill out seven copies. You remember--you wouldn't know of trying to make seven copies on a manual typewriter, carbon paper. You had to start wearing dresses that were either navy blue or black because you'd get this carbon all over you. It was something else. So that's my closest encounter with the FBI.</p>
<p>Bauman: You also earlier talked about how during the war, there--bare bones. There really wasn't any entertainment, and the town wasn't necessarily especially welcoming. Did that change after the war? Did--</p>
<p>Sather: Yes, I think they knew what side their bread was buttered on, so to speak. They knew that in the long run, it was good for the communities. Yeah, I think so, because I know we mixed a lot more with it. And of course, they had their stores that you had to trade at. It just wasn't that many places to shop, and you couldn't just jump in the car and go to Spokane or Seattle because where were you going to get your gas stamps? When we were in the trailer, we ran the stove that took white gas. And my husband had a '39 Ford Coupe V8. So we're eating at the mess hall, I mean, we weren't really cooking. So we were putting the white gas allotment into this Ford, and it just about hopped up. Yeah. But we never got enough to go any great distance.</p>
<p>Bauman: Where did you go shopping locally?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, we could get the bus and go to Pasco. There was a lot of nice stores in Pasco at that time. They were like men's stores—weren't any department stores—men's stores, and lady's stores, and children's stories, like every little small town has. And same way with the Kennewick. Well, we went to Yakima. And actually, we didn't shop like you would imagine in your time because where you going to put it? Because we're more or less transient for quite a while. And also, they just weren't things available. Maybe they weren't rationed, but they just weren't available because the federal projects and the military had the priority. I was bumped from a train between LA and Fresno, and my brother from the first Marines came back from the Pacific. My sister—I was visiting in LA at the time, and I went to my sister’s at Fresno. And we got bumped. We were going to 'Frisco, and he was coming in at 'Frisco. Well, actually, he came into San Diego where the marine base was at Camp Pendleton. But then he got a ride some buddy up to San Francisco. And when he was overseas, he was on a Browning Automatic Rifle, BAR, and it's a two man thing. And he had promised his buddies that he, if anybody was lost, he would visit their next of kin. And he had a list of 22 names in the four plus years that he was in the first Marines that he lost that could've been him. And two of them were in San Francisco, and so that's why he ended up in San Francisco. So we picked him up, come to my place, and stayed about a month. And then he went all around the country, visited these next of kin that he'd promised.</p>
<p>Bauman: So overall, how would you describe your years working at Hanford?</p>
<p>Sather: Oh, I think it was a good thing. I think it was good for us. I learned a lot, did a lot of different type of jobs. And the climate was much better than Des Moines, Iowa, I'll tell ya. And the companies, overall, have been good to us. We were with DuPont first and General Electric and then United Nuclear. It's been very broadening, I'll say that. We met people from all over, just all over. And allowed us to raise our family and have a nice home, and a good retirement, and I would do it over again. Not at this age, but at 21, it was easy. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything else that stands out in your mind from your time working at Hanford, or anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about it?</p>
<p>Sather: Well, it wasn't all as stringent as it sounds. We just kind of laughed about a lot of it. Of course, we really aren't allowed to criticize much, because it just wasn't nice to do that with the war on. I had four brothers in the service. And my dad had been in the Navy in World War I. And you just kind of, well—after Pearl Harbor, the people supported the government very, very well. Before that, when England was in the midst of it and it was back and forth about whether United States would get into it, and it was—really there was no question about it after Pearl Harbor. And so most people felt we were attacked, and they felt you had to do what you had to do. I've never supported a war since then, I guess because we weren't attacked. But I feel now, now that we've been attacked again with the 9/11—I think which took as many people as Pearl Harbor. I think Pearl Harbor was about 2,500 or something like that. That other one plane went into the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania field I think was about 3,000. Yeah. Overall, I know there was critics, primarily over on the west side. And I know they visited over here, and they have no idea that we have an operating nuclear reactor out here on the edge of town. And it was just like my friend in California. We had some friends in California, so anti-nuclear and everything. So I looked it up, and I found out that the time that he was talking about, that there were 19 operating in California alone! Over 100 in the United States. And that was probably 25, 30 years ago. And he was so surprised to think--he just thought there might be one that blew up somewhere. But it just wasn't needed, it wasn't really producing that much. But now you stop to think they'd shut down all those like you see outside of Phoenix in these large cities. What would we do? Where would we get the oil or the gas for alternate fuel? Because the populations have grown. The industries have grown. I realize there's a lot of critics. I know they come over here expecting to see us glow in the dark. But they don't mind hooking up to it whenever they get a chance. But of course, they shut it down. And Oregon shut the one they had down in Oregon, and they stopped building the ones that they were building on the other side at Elma. So I don't think they realize how dependent we are. But the same way there's critics about the dam, and what's cheaper than hydropower? But on the other hand, you go to California or Arizona and they're paying $0.15, $0.16 per kilowatt. We're paying 6.5 for electric heating here. So they envy us in a way, I think a lot of us envy.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today--</p>
<p>Sather: Well, you're welcome.</p>
<p>Bauman: And thank you for sharing your experiences at Hanford. I really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Sather: Yeah. You're a very good interviewer.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thank you. All right.</p>
Location
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Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
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00:51:58
Bit Rate/Frequency
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192 kbps
Hanford Sites
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N Reactor
300 Area
200 Area
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Virginia Sather
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Virginia Sather conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Missasion Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
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Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Date
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2013-10-16
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" Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
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2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
200 Area
300 Area
DuPont
General Electric
N Reactor
-
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4bdb6633307697446efeebe6eacc1f29
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5860e0871ce50146e5899a1a69426bcd.mp4
36f3b018f208cb3c25f93d9c8058180e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Stratton, Monte
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Stratton_Monte</strong></p>
<p>Camera man: Okay. I say we record.</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Yep. All right. All right, let's go ahead and get started. Get some of the official stuff out of the way first. My name's Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Monte Stratton. And today's date is July 16 of 2013. Our interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Stratton about his experiences working at the Hanford site. So first of all, thank you for coming in and letting us talk to you today.</p>
<p>Monte Stratton: Well, first off, you can call me Monte. I like to go by my--</p>
<p>Bauman: Will do.</p>
<p>Stratton: --nickname.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. Well, Monte, I wonder if you could start by just telling us how and why you came to the Hanford site and when you came here.</p>
<p>Stratton: Well, going back to the early days of my working career, I was at an ammunition plant in Kings Mills, Ohio. This would have been in 1943. And at that time, the war was in its heyday and actually beginning to wind down to some extent. And I had been given a deferment up to that point, because I was at an ammunition plant. But they needed some personnel here at the Hanford site which was being built, and I was interviewed by the person who eventually became the plant manager to start with. That would have been Walt Simon. They were looking for people that had backgrounds similar to mine. I was an amateur radio operator and had some electronic experience. I'm an electrical engineer by profession, and they needed someone with that background for the instrument field. So as I said, I was interviewed and accepted the offer. I came to the Hanford site in February of 1944, and that's when I got started here at Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what was your very first impressions of the place when you arrived?</p>
<p>Stratton: A long ways from home. [LAUGHTER] I don't recall any particular impressions. I know that I arrived in the wee hours of the morning, came in by train into Pasco. And were met by plant personnel who escorted me over to Richland, and I was given a room in the—trying to recall what—the hotel that was originally in Richland. And I spent a week there and then I was given a room in the last men's dormitory that was built. This was K8. But my first impressions of this place were so different from the East Coast, where I'd grown up. So it took me a while to get used to it. But I soon learned to survive.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so you stayed—you were living in a dorm, a men's dorm at the time then. Could you describe that, like--</p>
<p>Stratton: For--</p>
<p>Bauman: --the size of it, or anything along those lines?</p>
<p>Stratton: There were eight men's dorms here in Richland. And there was a two-story building. I don't think any of them are still around, but they used some of them for facilities afterwards. I was on the second floor, and it was--I don't remember too much about any particulars of the dormitory. At this point, I might mention something about the dust storms that were prevalent in those days. They were called termination winds, and I recall one day I was laying across my bed. This was probably a Sunday afternoon, just resting, left the window open, and one of those termination wind dust storms came up. And when I woke up, I was covered with dust. [LAUGHTER] That was one experience that I had in the early days. Another experience that I had while I was there in the dormitory, and this relates to security—in those days security was very prevalent. There were a lot of security agents assigned here as everybody knows. And one afternoon once again I was laying across my bed and I got this strong knock at the door. When I opened the door the person walked right past me and came over to a radio receiver that I had on the table. And this receiver had a send/receive switch on the front. And he says, we have to put a seal on that. This happened to be the receiver that I'd brought out with me. Being an amateur radio operator, I brought my receiver along. We were taken off the air, of course, during the wartime, but I had my receiver just to listen to whatever was of interest. Well, I had a hard time explaining to this security person that this switch on the front of this receiver did not do any transmitting. That's what he wanted to make sure, that there was no transmitting involved. So I opened it up and let him look in and explained as best I could. Actually, the switch only controlled some external device if you wanted to hook it. But I managed to get past that one.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did you live in the dorms then?</p>
<p>Stratton: About one year. As I recall, I was in the dormitory for approximately one year. During that period, I met the person that I ended up marrying. And when I married this person, I moved from the dorm into a house that had been assigned us.</p>
<p>Bauman: And where was the house?</p>
<p>Stratton: The house was a duplex, a B-type house located on Judson Avenue in Richland. And we ended up having two children and we moved out of that B house to where we're presently living, which is an H-type house, [INAUDIBLE].</p>
<p>Bauman: And how did you and your wife meet? Was she working there as well?</p>
<p>Stratton: Oh, now you've asked a nice question. [LAUGHTER] It just so happens that I had a crew of people maintaining doing repair work on some of the instrumentation which I was assigned to. We had a shop in Richland, and one of my personnel was this girl that I became acquainted with affectionately and ended up marrying her. She was one of my, actually one of my workers.</p>
<p>Bauman: And where had she come from to work Hanford?</p>
<p>Stratton: She had come from Denver Ordnance Plant in Denver under similar circumstances that I came. At that time—this is a matter of interest—ammunition plants in different parts of the country had stockpiled their ammunition to the point where they were slowing down. A lot of the plants were either closing or slowing their operations. And the girl that I married had been working at one of the ammunition plants, and she was transferred here to the Hanford plant under very similar circumstances that I was.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, let's talk about the work you did then at Hanford when you first arrived. Could you describe the sort of work activities you were involved in?</p>
<p>Stratton: Well, when I first got here, I was assigned to a shop activity in the 300 Area. It was an instrument shop. And they were maintaining instruments that were being used throughout the project. And after that latter part of 1944, I was transferred to a new shop that had just been built in the 700 Area, an instrument shop. And that's where we were maintaining instruments that were being used throughout the project.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And how long did you end up working at Hanford, and what other sorts of jobs did you have?</p>
<p>Stratton: Oh, I worked at Hanford here until I retired in 1982. I worked in all the different areas, starting at the 300 Area, then to the 700 Area. I was sent out to F Area at the startup of that reactor. And then came back to the 700 Area and was there for several years, and finally was sent out to the B Reactor. The B Reactor started up and operated for a short period of time. Then it was shut down—I don't recall for how long—a year or so maybe. And I was sent out to the B Reactor about that time--or was at B reactor about the time that it started up on its second run of operation.</p>
<p>Bauman: And about when would that have been?</p>
<p>Stratton: I'm guessing, and I was looking at my notes the other day, trying to figure out exactly when that would have been, but I'm guessing around 1949. I could be wrong on that date, but that's approximately.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what was your jobs at B Reactor when you were there?</p>
<p>Stratton: To start with I was actually a mechanic doing maintenance activity. But after being there for a while, I was elevated to a supervisor again. And I worked in B Reactor and several of the other reactors over the years. I went to the K Reactors when they were just being built and followed those from ground up, spent about roughly ten years, either as a supervisor or in maintenance engineering at the K Reactors.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you worked at several different areas then on the site.</p>
<p>Stratton: I did. I sure did. After the K Reactor started slowing down and—I'm trying to recall the date. I think it was 1972 when my work in the K Reactors had gotten to the point where I was no longer needed there. And so I came to the 200 Areas and spent another ten years there in field engineering.</p>
<p>Bauman: So could you maybe explain a little more, what would field engineering entail? Like, what sort of things might you typically do on a work day when you were working in the 200 Areas?</p>
<p>Stratton: Well, for instance in the K Areas, it would be going out and checking on the operation of the equipment, seeing that it's functioning properly and making repairs if they were minor, or otherwise I'd call a mechanic to come and do the repair work. In the 200 Areas, I was doing both field engineering and field inspection for new instrumentations that were being put in place.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to go back a little bit to you said you first started working in Hanford in 1944. Right?</p>
<p>Stratton: Correct.</p>
<p>Bauman: Did you know what you were working on? Did you know it was--</p>
<p>Stratton: I've been asked that question many times.</p>
<p>Bauman: A lot of times?</p>
<p>Stratton: When did you find out that the—what they were doing here at Hanford? I might say this. My background being an electrical engineer and ham radio as a hobby, I had enough electronic experience in my background to begin to figure out from the instruments that we were using pretty much what was being done here at Hanford. So it took a while before I got all the details, but I started figuring out in the early days what was really happening here.</p>
<p>Bauman: And do you remember when you first heard the news that the war had ended, anything along those lines?</p>
<p>Stratton: I might relate one interesting experience. When they first made an announcement of what was being done here at Hanford, it was just a limited amount of information that was released to the news media. It so happened that my wife and I—this was in 1945—my wife and I were on a vacation trip, and we were at Mount Rainier. And when the news came out, of course, being the closed-mouth person I am, I didn't even say, boo, that I had worked at Hanford. However, my supervisor back in Richland was so afraid that I was going to start talking and say things that I shouldn't about the work that was, that he frantically got hold of me there at the—I think we were at Paradise Inn at the time. He was all concerned that I'd start talking. And I let him know right off the bat that I know not to keep—to keep my mouth shut and not talk—[LAUGHTER] other than what's official or released.</p>
<p>Bauman: So he called you while you were on vacation to make sure you--</p>
<p>Stratton: He called me to make sure that I didn't blab my mouth, something I shouldn't say.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you sort of mentioned a couple of times the security at Hanford, obviously. I wonder, and you lived in the dorms initially and then lived in a house in Richland. So in terms of security, getting onsite to work every day. Did you drive your car? Did you take a bus? How did that work?</p>
<p>Stratton: As I recall, I was using the transportation that was provided, bus transportation. Speaking of security, reminded me of another instance. I might back up a bit here. The people that I had working with me in the 700 Area were available to maintain instruments out on the Hanford Project. We had certain instruments that we would go out and take a look at. So one day I sent one of my personnel out to look at this equipment out in one of the remote areas. And she had a run-in, so to speak with the guards at the gate. She had been doing this job quite a bit, got to know quite a few of the guards at the gate, and she would kid them going through. And this particular day there was a guard at the gate that apparently she had not become acquainted with. And she made—when he asked her something about the equipment that she had—some of the equipment would be taken out for maintenance purposes. He asked her what she was carrying, and she made some remark about it being explosive or something along that nature, which—that was the wrong thing for her to say. And she had quite a hard time explaining herself out of that one. Another instance of security that I can recall—we had some instruments that were manufactured and when they arrived, the meter on the front of the instrument read millirankines. That was a no-no from an information standpoint. We did not want people that were not familiar with what was going on—that was the very early days—what we were actually measuring. And we had to take every one of those instruments out of the case and blank out the word, paint over the word millirankines to keep people who were not privy to the information to be able to read it, know what we were measuring. That gives you an idea of how strict security was in those days.</p>
<p>Bauman: And did you have to have a special security clearance to do the job that you had?</p>
<p>Stratton: I was issued what was called a Q clearance at the time. I think it was the popular security clearance for most people that would have access to classified information.</p>
<p>Bauman: Sure. I want to go back a little bit, again, to that first period during the war when you were living in the dorm. What sorts of entertainment was available on site for all the workers who were living in the dorms? Were there things to do for entertainment?</p>
<p>Stratton: [LAUGHTER] I don't recall too much that I got involved in as far as entertainment is concerned. I was never much of a entertainment type person. I didn't do carousing around like some people did. I don't recall too much in the way of entertainment. I might say took some hikes. Four of us actually climbed up the side of Rattlesnake Mountain. That would've been in the early part of 1944. And on another occasion I got out and hiked up to the top of Badger. But I don't recall too much in the way of entertainment that I got involved in in those days.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you said that you moved to Richland. You and your wife got married and moved to Richland. What was Richland like at the time as a community in the 1940s and the 1950s?</p>
<p>Stratton: Well, in the early 1940s, it was a closed town, of course. And you had to have a reason to be here. I don't remember too much about the details. It just wasn't a lot of interest from my standpoint in the early days.</p>
<p>Bauman: Can you think of any events or significant happenings, things that happened at Hanford while you were working there. I know President Kennedy came in 1963 to visit the N Reactor. I wonder if you were there at that time or any other events that stand out in your mind?</p>
<p>Stratton: I remember going and seeing Kennedy when he came. I was off at a distance. I was working out in the 100 Areas at the time. And I remember going and seeing him at a distance. I'm trying to think of any other events of particular interest. I can't think of anything to mention right at the moment, Bob.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. Were there ever any emergencies, fires or anything along those lines that happened while you were working that stand out at all?</p>
<p>Stratton: Gee, I can't think of anything of particular interest at the time, Bob.</p>
<p>Bauman: You worked, so you worked at Hanford basically from 1944 to 1982, right?</p>
<p>Stratton: Right.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's almost 40 years. My math.</p>
<p>Stratton: Almost 40.</p>
<p>Bauman: Long time. You must have seen a fair amount of change take place on the site, in the technology that was used or maybe some of the procedures or policies. I wondered if you could--</p>
<p>Stratton: Probably the biggest change would be in policies—that I can think of. Of course, equipment was updated tremendously over that period of time. And what we started with in the early days was antique by the time I retired. But I think maybe policies were some of the biggest situations that I can relate to.</p>
<p>Bauman: Are there any particular policies or practice that stand out that changed?</p>
<p>Stratton: Nothing that I can relate to right at the moment. I can't think of anything in particular, but—</p>
<p>Bauman: Hanford obviously at some point, it was for years about production and at some point shifted to clean up. Had that started to happen when you were working there?</p>
<p>Stratton: Not really. No. There wasn't a whole lot of that activity. Clean up pretty much started after I retired.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder if there's—what you would like future generations, people who never worked at the Hanford site to understand, to know about working at Hanford during World War II and the Cold War era?</p>
<p>Stratton: Well, the thing that some of the people wonder about—we were producing plutonium. Was that a good thing? Well, you have to look at it from the standpoint that the war effort was brought to an end primarily because of the work that we started here with the production of plutonium. It undoubtedly brought the war to an end. That's what the way we have to—the way I would like to look at it.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you said you worked there almost 40 years. There were a lot of people who didn't. The termination winds sent a lot of people packing.</p>
<p>Stratton: Those were—that’s true.</p>
<p>Bauman: You know, what was it that kept you here for almost 40 years?</p>
<p>Stratton: Probably getting married. [LAUGHTER] That would be probably the main reason that we decided to stay and raise a family here. I was working in a field that was of interest to me. Like I mentioned, I was a ham radio operator from way back. And I was in the instrument field and the work that I was doing was of real interest for me. And so I had no particular desire to move away from here. So I think that is one of the things that kept me here. Of course, we started our family and from then on this was home.</p>
<p>Bauman: So overall, how would you describe Hanford as a place to work?</p>
<p>Stratton: Well, for me it worked out to be a very good place. Young people that came along after I'd been here for a few years, like tech grads coming in for a short stay and they wanted to know, do you think this is a good place to try to continue working here? And I would always encourage them to go ahead and apply for employment here at the Hanford Project. Because I think if it was in their field of interest or field of training, that would be a good place for them to work.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to talk about or any special memories or specific memories that you think would be important to talk about?</p>
<p>Stratton: I think you've covered it very nicely. Well, I can't think of anything in particular to add to what we've covered so far.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, great. I want to thank you, Monte, for coming.</p>
<p>Stratton: Oh, you're sure welcome.</p>
<p>Bauman: I really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Stratton: Only too happy to do what I could to--I don't know whether this will help the cause very much.</p>
<p>Bauman: It's terrific. Yeah. Thank you very much.</p>
<p>Stratton: Oh, you're sure welcome.</p>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:32:27
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
215 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 area
700 area
F area
B reactor
K area
200 area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1944-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1944-1982
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Monte Stratton
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Monte Stratton conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-7-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-7-1: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
B Reactor
F Area
K Reactor
Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963
N Reactor
Richland (Wash.)
Secrecy
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7f6d2722f96af5759ce34d284e17ceb3.jpg
2e6c63401f341726a5d00d80c6b894e0
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F35192d6fa7246bcbeafa4d77f812dca4.mp4
5118fbd730bbe880f6366cbc5584f62f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Smith
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010">
<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span class="SpellingError SCX91453010">Smith_Bob</span></span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I'm going to start by just maybe having you state your name first.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: That's Robert Lee Smith. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> usually go by Bob.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, and my name is Robert Bauman, and I'm conducting an oral history inte</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rview with Bob Smith on July 16</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX91453010">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> of </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">2013, and the interview's being conducted on the campus of Washington State University</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Tri-Cities. And I'll be</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">talking with Bob Smith about his experience working at the Hanford site. So I thought we'd start today by just</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">asking you to talk about how you came to Hanford, how that happened, when that was, and what brought you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">here.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, it had to happen about 1951. My Kansas National Guard unit got called into federal service during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Korean War, and we wound up at Fort Lewis. So one day, a friend and I were hitchhiking into Yakima, and this</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">car, Oldsmobile station wagon</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">looked like a brand new one</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">pulled up to give us a ride.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So we got to asking him questions about, well, gee, you must have a nice job to afford a car like this. Yeah, I've</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">got a pretty nice job, he says. Well, what do you do? He says, I'm a guard over at the Hanford Atomic Works. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">says, well, where's that? He said, oh, it's 80 miles down the road.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We weren't bashful about asking questions, so we says, well, how much do you make? He says well I make $100</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a week. $100 a week? Wow. I had just left Pittsburg, Kansas at a job at $30 a week as a clerk typist. So I thought</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to myself, I want to check that place out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So eventually I did. I wound up as a clerk</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> when they were building the K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas, not making $100 a week, but I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">making $60 a week.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And did you have any idea of what Hanford was at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010">
<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I had read a short article in the newspaper, I think, over at Fort Lewis, something about they had atomic energy</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">work going on here, and it was secret, and it got my imagination, my curiosity</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. I thought, I'm going to have to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">check that place out. So I eventually did.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX91453010">
<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And what were your first impressions of the place when you first arrived to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I thought it was a real nice place. I got here </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">on June 8</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX91453010">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> in 1953. And the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> weather was nice and clear and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">really nice. I saw the Rattlesnake Mountain off of the site, back over there, and I thought, man, that's really pretty.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We didn't have any mountains like that back in Kansas.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I was living at the dormitory, so I would run out in the morning and catch a bus, take me to the bus lot, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">then fro</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">m the bus lot I'd go out to 100-K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea. So anyhow, I was very impressed with the area around here.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And so what was your first job? What sort of job were you doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">t was a clerk typist out of 100-K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea, whe</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n they were building the K-East and K-W</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">est Reactor. It was back in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">1953.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And so which contractor?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">General Electric.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">General Electric.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, General Electric Company.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, and you said you lived in a dormitory when you first came?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yes, mm-hmm.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And where were those at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">It was where Albertsons Grocery Store is now on Stevens</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Stevens</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> and the Lee Boulevard.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And it was an all-men dormitory?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, it had a W-21, which stood for Women's, but there were two dormitories in there that had men in them, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they started with a W because eventually they thought they would be women's dorms. But they had more men</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">than women, I guess, so I wound up in W-21.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And how large was the dorm?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Just like any college dormitory, actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">two story, stairs on the outside you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> go</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> up, as well stairs inside--typical college-type dorm.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And how long did you live in the dorm then?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I lived in the dorm until I got married in 1954. I got married in May of '54, so. While living there, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eventually transferred me up to M-1 dormitory, which</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> is up close to Jadwin and Symons</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, something like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Because—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for some reason, maybe they had sold their area to Albertsons. I don't know. But I eventually moved up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">there. So I was there about a year.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then after you got married, where did you move at that point?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, we got an apartment over in Kennewick, but we were only there for about week before our names came</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">through. We had put in for a house to rent in Richland, because it was still a government town at that time. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> got a B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house at that time at 1413 McPherson. So being over this one bedroom basement apartment in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Kennewick only lasted about a week, </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">so we moved into the Richland B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And what were your impressions of Richland at the time? What sort of community was it?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I thought it was real nice. It had the downtown section and also the uptown. The uptown section was fairly new at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that time. But I thought it was very good.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And you mentioned Richland was a government town. Do you remember any special community events--parades, any of those sorts of things during that period?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Not too many</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">being a government town, why, you did the job that you had to do. Well, they did have this music</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">group that had opera singers and plays that you could go to and take part in choruses, singing. So I did join the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Richland Light Opera Team for maybe one year and did a little singing there. But that was only for a few months,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">until I met my wife, and then I lost interest in singing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And at some point, Richland I guess, gains independence, I guess, or whatever you want to say. Do you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> r</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">emember anything about that period and that process at all?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, that was around 1957 when </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that happened. And being in a B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house, which meant there was a family on</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">each side, the people that were there ahead of us had the opportunity to buy the house, but they didn't want to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">buy it, so they asked us if we wanted to buy it. Well, didn't have enough money to buy anything, so we said, no.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So they went ahead and bought it, and we just stayed there. The rent for the General Electric time was $37.50 a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">month, and we continued paying that for about a year, and then it went up to about $50 a month. But that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was still pretty reasonable at that time.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So you mentioned you star</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ted as a clerk typist in the K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea, right? At some point you moved in to Health Physics.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">How did that happen, and when did that happen?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, by the time my year was up as a clerk typist, I had a chance to move into a job at a little bit of pay. The job</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was called field assistant, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">half clerical typing job, and the other half of the day would be radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time-keeper following J</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. Jones personnel</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> around, minor cons</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">truction, keeping time on them—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radiation time in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radiation zones to make sure that these construction workers didn't receive more than 300 MR in a seven-day</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">period.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Because </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in those days, although we had d</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">osimeter pencils, they were not the self-reading kind where you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">just look up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> the light. What they would do is at the end of the day, you would drop your badge and pencils in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> rack, in this case, 200 West A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea and then go home for the night.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, they had </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what they called pencil girls</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> that would come out on swing shift, and they would collect these</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">badge and pencils, and they would read these pencils. They had a manometer upstairs above the guard house,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and they would stick these pencil in the manometer. It would read how much radiation it had collected. Then</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they'd put them back with the badge and put them back in the rack. So the next morning when you came, you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">pick them up again.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> my time as a radiation time-keeper was up to me to keep track with pencil and paper about how long they</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">could stay in the radiation zones, depending on how high the radiation dose was. As a radiation time-keeper, we'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">accompany radiation monitors</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they called them Health Physics Technicians</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">everywhere the construction guys</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">went. And they would tell us the reading, and we would calculate how many minutes they could work in that zone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then when they would leave that zone and go to another one, then we'd calculate that. So we did that for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> full eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> hours a day. Well, at least four hours a day. Half the day I might spend as a clerk typist writing up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">construction schedules for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we had a General Electric engineer and also a J</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Jones engineer. So they would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">write up the schedules, and I would type them up for the first half of the day, and the second half of the day, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would go keep time on the guys in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radiation zones for about half a day.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I did that from 1954 to 1959, and then I had a chance to transfer into radiation monitoring, which I did. And I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worked in that job from '59 until I retired in '93.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd so when you moved to radiation monitoring, what did that mean in terms of your sort of everyday</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">job? What sorts of different things would you be doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, we woul</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">d go with the operations personne</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">l, like operators or maintenance people, and accompany them on</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">jobs and find out how much radiation was in the area, and then go in there with them and stay with them, in a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of cases, as long as they were in the zone. And then sometimes we could set the job up if the radiation was not</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">going to increase or decrease, then we would leave the job.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But oftentimes we would have to stay with them because they would move from one place to another. So we were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">kind of following construction people and operations engineers</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">everybody that had to go in a radiation zone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We'd either go ahead of time and check the readings off and take smears</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">some floor smears and air samples</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and that sort of thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to make sure they were within the limits of a the Hanford project.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So you worked in various places throughout the site.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I worked at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eventually over the period of time, I was in that job at all nine reactors at the Hanford project.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And also I worked th</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ree separations buildings, PUREX 200 East Area, D Plant in 200 East A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea, and also at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. When I was a radiation time-keeper, partly I kept time on the construction people because they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">building a crane viewi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ng room in the REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, so I did work there also as part of my job as a time-keeper.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I imagine, given the number of years that you worked there, that were a number of contractors that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worked for over the years.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, General Electric left about 1965, so about that time I had a chan</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ce to transfer over to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas at an</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">outfit called Isochem had the contract. And they only did that for about a year or two, when they left and turned</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">their work over to Atlantic Richfield. And Atlantic Richfield did it eventually until Westinghouse eventually took over.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">In between those periods there, I also worked at Douglas Labs, which is out on North George Washington Way.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I did the same type of work, except I also was taught how to irradiate TLD badges because TLDs took over</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the place from film badges. So I would issue these badges for all workers for Douglas Labs, which was, at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time, probably less</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> than</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> 100 people.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I worked at that from about '73 until '76, when Exxon bought the building for Douglas Labs, and then I worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for them for about another couple three years. So actually I was gone from the Hanford project for about five</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">years there, roughly</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">two and a half for Exxon, and two and a half for Douglas Labs.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay, okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Now, at some point, the mission of the site changed from production to clean up. Did that impact your job in terms</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of radiation monitoring in anyway, and if so, how so?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: Yeah, some things did, all right. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">bout 1987, all the re</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">actors were shut down except N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor. And then they decided to shut</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor down '87. But they still had a lot of fuel elem</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ents left in the basement at N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor. Sometimes they</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would shi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">p those few elements over to K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas for storage. But they needed to be processed to make plutonium.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Even though they were going to quit making plutonium, they should've dissolved these fuel elements and got rid of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">them. Instead they just let them store in the K areas for several years. And that was too bad</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> because eventually K</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas had to get those </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">fuel elements out of there and send what's left of them ove</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">r to T Plant, what they call T P</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">lant</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">now, for storage of some of the stuff that's left.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So it</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> made a difference in the kind of radiation monitoring you did. You didn't have to go into operating reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">buildings. Eventually, I transferred into what they call a D&D group, which was Decontamination and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Decommissioning, which meant I went around to all of the old shut</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">down reactors with operators. Well, they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">called D&D workers at this time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We would go with them and make sure that there was no radiation around, take smears of the floor. About the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">only thing left in them would be radon, so we'd check for that. Sometimes we'd run onto a rattlesnake in these old</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">shut down buildings. And one that really surprised once</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we went to 105 C R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor, and we saw this rattlesnake</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">curled up underneath an old maintenance room. And the operator said, darn, the last time I killed rattlesnake, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">environmentalists </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">really got on to me. I says, okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, it was on Friday afternoon, so I said</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we had a radio, of course. So I said, I'll go out in the radio car and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">radio the office and see what the supervisor wants to do. So I did, but the supervisor had left </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">early to go to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> town,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">so the assistant was there. I say, what do you want us to do with this rattle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">snake? We hadn't killed him yet. [LAUGHTER] A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">took a camera with me from the pickup. And he says, well, use your own judgment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, our judgment is we're going to run into that thing again in a month from now, and I didn't want him to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">surprised and bite me. So I took a shovel in with me, and I handed it to the operator and says, do you want to kill</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">him, or do you want me to do it? He says, I'll do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So he took the shovel and whacked the head off of this thing. So after a few minutes there we got ready to leave.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">He scooped up the head on a shovel and carried the tail with his hand</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. And he went on outside to C Re</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">actor, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">he threw the tail over </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the roadway out into the desert</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. But the head, he laid down on the concrete there in front of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> the entrance to C R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">He says, let me dig a hole here to bury this head. We didn't want a coyote or something to eat that head and die</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of rattlesnake poison. So while he was digging that hole, one of the other D&D operators, who had a safety-toed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">boot on, took his boot and gradually moved it up towards that head, and this was after that thing had been killed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> for about ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> or 15, 20 minutes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And that snake, much to our surprise, his head came up about six inches off the ground, came down, and his</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">teeth had latched around fangs on that guy's boot and snagged the top of it for about an inch. And man, I'll tell</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">you, the three of us looked at each other and says, did you see what I saw? We had never seen that before or</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">heard of it. So that surprised us to no extent. So anyhow, that was one of the exciting jobs.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: That’s quite a story. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">What a surprise. Yeah, wow. So I was going to ask you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> were involved with a lot of radiation monitoring. So if</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a worker was exposed too much, their pencil or whatever showed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what happened at that point then for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worker?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, we had a limit of 300 MR</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> per</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> seven-day period, and as a radiation time-keeper, when the worker reached that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">point, why</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> we would go in and pull him out of the zone and tell him, that's it for the week</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">300 per week. Also, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">had a limit of 50 MR per day to start with. So whenever they reached 50 for that day, we would pull them out. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">next day they'd go in for another 50. But they would do that until they got 300 in a seven-day period.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">In reading the informat</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ion from an interview you did ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> years ago or so, it talked about that you had been involved</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in creating a tube that was uses to pinpoint the area of contamination. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, we had what we called a P-11 probe, a Geiger counter. And what we did was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> in a process of surveying our</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people, this P-11 probe was about two, two and a half inches in diameter. I think I've </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">got a copy of it. Anyhow, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would lay this piece of paper down on whatever was contaminated. If it was the bottom of a shoe, we would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">survey that shoe and find the hottest spot on that shoe, and then we would mark it, a pencil mark around the P-11</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">probe.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So it was a round circle for the </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hottest spot. And then I would—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in my days as field artillery in the army, I used to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">work on fire direction center. So we would be fire forward and fire backwards. I thought, well, maybe I could use</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">this P-11 probe like that. So I got the hot spot, and then I would move the P-11 probe down, and then I would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">draw a circle around it</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">below it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then I would go back and find the hot spot and move it to the right, and move it until the radiation went away.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Then I would draw a circle around that. Then I would take it up above and do the same thing there and off the left</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hand</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">side. So when I got through, I had a spot in the center of it about the size of your thumbnail, and that would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">tell us where the hotspot was on the bottom of the shoe or whatever you were decontaminating.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So that saved you some time in decontaminating. Like on the bottom of a shoe you'd use sandpaper or emery</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">cloth, something like that to clean it off, or masking tape or duct tape. So that kind of helped me anyhow</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">just</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">tools of the trade.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Right, and when did you develop that? What time frame would that have been?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Probably around 1970. At that time, I was going over to CBC. I used to be a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">wards chairman for </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Health</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Physics </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Society years ago, and my job was to contact the instructor for a nuclear technology class for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">CBC and find out who we could give a scholarship to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">$500 or something like that. So this guy called me up one</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">day. He says, Bob, we need to have somebody in your group to come over and give radiation monitoring classes</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to our students because they were learning how to be operators in the reactor buildings or radiation technicians.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I said, sure, I could do that. He had gotten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> his experience from the Navy. H</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e was a Health Physics technician, or</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they called them something else in the Navy. And he says, we need somebody over here to help them out and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">teach them. Could you do that, or could you find somebody? I says, yeah, I could probably do that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I contacted my manager, and after six months or a year, they give me permission to go over there and do that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">about once a month. So I would go teach you one or two hours in the morning and another one or two hours in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the afternoon. So that's what I thought about this thing here, which I had done out of work</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">finding little hotspots</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and then bringing them down to a small area. So that's about the time that I was doing that, and so I passed it on</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to the students so they would know, too.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So it was sort of the teaching the students that led you to sort of thinking about that and developing that process?</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, some of those students</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">in the summertime we would hire maybe five or six of them to come out </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">at N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">as interns for the summer</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> because we were shut down for about a month or so for all the repairs and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">stuff. So we'd hire some of these students to come out and go </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">round with us and learn jobs. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> at the end of that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">summer, if the company wanted to hire some of them, they could hire one or two or all six of them. So that kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">worked out good for both of them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And then they shut that teaching job down several years ago because the contractors at Hanford quit hiring</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people because we were starting to shut down reactors and laying people off. So if there's no need for them, then</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they quit teaching it. But then here, about two years ago, they started up that program again.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I don't have anything to do with it. But they do teach them now three jobs, either a radiation operator type job or</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">health physics technician type job or as an instrument technician job. They can go three different ways, so that's a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">good program at CBC right now. It's kind of like nuclear technology. It's a two-year program.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And about how long did you teach classes?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: About ten</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> years, from about 1970 until about 1980.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And in reading about this, it sounded like you also were instrumental in developing a scholarship program at CBC?</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I noticed th</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">at we always had white persons. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">here was never any blacks</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> and not even many Latinos either.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So one day I asked Larry, I said, how come we don't ever have any Afro-Americans in here? He says he didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">know. So I went to the guy in charge of Afro-Americans over there hiring people, and he says he didn't know.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I thought, well, probably the reason is they were just like I was when I was getting out of high school. I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">have any money to go to college. So I says, maybe we should start up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">maybe the college could do something.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I thought, well, we ought to have an auction.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> we had an auction there at CBC,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> and we had all the kids in the class bring thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s to donate and put out to sell. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd we advertised it, sent information around to a bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nch of companies. And I met</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> about seven or eight</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">companies to see if they wanted to donate equipment for it, which they did. But the day of auction came along,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and I don't think we even had six people show up to buy anything. So, I says, well, we'll leave this equipment here,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and CBC can have an auction some other time and maybe they'll collect more money, which they did.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">However, we had a guy that was pretty high up in the company for Westinghouse, and he was attending meetings</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">over there. And one day I went to the building over there, and I saw all these, three or four or five other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">companies, not Westinghouse, that had plaques up on the wall that they donated $5,000 from one company,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">$10,000 for another company for scholarships. And so one day, we had a fellow that was pretty high up in</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Westinghouse stop by our building out there for a safety meeting one day. I says, we're going to have an auction,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and it would be nice if Westinghouse could donate some money towards this thing and hire these minorities.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So he took that information into the vice preside</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nt of Westinghouse, and they </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">okayed</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> And I says, it'd be nice if</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we had four $1,000 scholarships to give to these kids. So they came up with that for that year. However, the next</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">year, they came up with $28,000 for scholarships. So that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the guy who was in charge of all safety for</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Westinghouse at the time sent me a no</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">te and said this was coming off. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">o that made me feel pretty good that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Westinghouse did do that because all these other companies had done something. But they followed through with</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">it, which was great.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So you worked at Hanford from the 1950s into '93. Is that what you said?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">With some years in between there when you weren't.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Right, from about</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, at Hanford from '53 until '93, but I was a radiation monitor from '59 until '93.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Did the technology change quite a bit in terms of radiation monitoring over those years, and if so, how did it</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">change?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, yeah, they got better instrumentation down at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> did some of our reading of our badges and this sort</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of thing. So their instrumentat</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ion got better as the years went along. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd the same with our Geiger counters. They</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> went</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> from the old style to ones with P-11 probe. Nowadays, I'm not sure they even have a P-11 probe. It might</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">be two long probes that they could use either one for beta</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> gamma and alpha. Before, we just had the P-11 probe</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for Geiger counter, and for an alpha meter, we had the probe for alpha</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">two separate ones. So yeah, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">instrumentation did change.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I was also going to ask you during years</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, Hanford was obviously—emphasized</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> security, and I was wondering,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">especially when you started in the 1950s, what that was like in terms of security? Did you have to have special</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">clearance? When you went to the site, did you have to go through special security or anything along those lines?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I did. When they originally told me, while I was still the Army, there would be several weeks for them to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> check on my clearance, I thought, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, several weeks. Well, as it got closer to discharge time, I thought, man,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they haven't contacted me, so I better go down to Fort Lewis and check on civil service jobs. So I did, and I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">qu</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">alified for two jobs. One was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> a warehouse</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">man</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> because I had worked six years in a grocery store, and the other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">job was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> billing, clerk typist, in the transportation d</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">epartment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I stayed there from December of '52 </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">‘til June of '53. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut I got so tired of driving the fog and the rain over there</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">around Fort Lewis and Seattle-Tacoma area that I just got sick of it. I had an old 1940 Ford. The heater didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">work, and the defroster didn't work either. So I'd have to drive about half way out and scrape the ice off the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">outside and the inside.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And one day, I was cleaning out the back of it, and I saw all this mold in the backseat. I said, holy cow, the thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> didn't warm up enough to dry</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> that o</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut. So finally I decided, well—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I was kind of disgusted with General Electric for</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">not notifying me. So although I didn't want to go back to Kansas because my mother and stepfather didn't get</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">along too good. They fought like cats and dogs, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> under no condition,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> no way did I want to live in the same house with them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So put off of going back there. I could have gone back to Pittsburg, Kansas, where the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> had a four-year college</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">there. I could have lived at home, but I didn't want to stay there. So finally, I thought,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> I'm going to write General</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Electric a note. I didn't cuss them out or anything, but I wrote some wording on there that said, I thought you guys</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">were honest in your estimations of how long it was going to take for this, but it's been so long. You said several</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">weeks, and it's been several months.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I put t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hat letter and mailed in my out</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">box at Fort Lewis, Washington. And when I got home that night, I found a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">letter in the mailbox from the General Electric Company and it said, from Zane</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Wood. H</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e says, Bob, you've waited</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">long enough for a job. We're ready for you now, so you</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> can come on over. So I says, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, I'll give my boss two</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">weeks</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">’ </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">notice and come on over, so I did. But I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">clearances took an awful long time in those days.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And when you started working, did you drive your car on site? Were you able to do that, or did you have to take a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">bus, or how did that work?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">No, they had bus service around Richland that you could take buses down the sort of streets, and then you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">catch</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we were leaving at the B </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">house, so a bus would come by within about a block, so I'd catch my bus there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">take it to the bus lot, and then we would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> get on the bus that went to K A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea. And so I would get in there, pay a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nickel for a ride out and a nickel to ride back home, and this was 1953.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I did that until I went into the radiation time-keeper job</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, and we had buses to 200 West A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea then, all the areas,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">but you still just dropped a nickel in when you went in and a nickel when you came out. So I caught the buses</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">there also. So mainly buses</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they didn't get rid of the buses until about a year after I retired.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I know President Kennedy visi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ted the site in 1963 for the N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor dedication. I wondered if you were here at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time, and were you on the site that day?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Yeah, I was here at that time. I had two boys and a girl, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">and the wife. We loaded up in my station wagon and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> drove out to N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ea</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ctor and was there for his talk. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I think there was about 40,000 people out there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">too, so it took us an hour to get out of there with so many people. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that was an interesting time. I also went to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> one time when President Nixon came out here </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">to dedicate something to Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. So I was able to see</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">both presidents that way.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Do you have</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">were there ever any events that sort of stand out in your mind</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> period of time working there</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> or any</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">incidents of any kind or accidents or any sort of events that stand out in your mind from your years working at</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, one thing that kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">surprised me—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">about the time I was to retire i</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n 1993, I used to go over to B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">whenever they would have out-of-the-</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">country people for a tour of B R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">eactor. My manager at that time said that he</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">would like for me to be in on the tours because I used to work there when it was an operating reactor. So in case they ask him, well, what was is equipment used for or that one, I could tell them a little bit about it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I went over there once with about five or six Russians, and they wanted to look at B, so they were looking</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">around there. So finally, one of them spoke up and said, well, since you're about to retire here in a few months,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what's your lifetime radiation exposure? I say</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s it's 66 rem. And he says, aha! M</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ine's 600.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> knew—I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> figured they took a lot more radiation. I thought to myself, man, you must have been at Chernobyl or something.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But they took a lot more than what we were all</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">owed here at Hanford. Our limit—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">o</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">fficial—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was 5 rem per year, to not</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">include more than 3 R gamma. But they had a lot more over in Russia.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">What were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, sometimes as a radiation monitor, you were the only person that knew much about radiation and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">contamination on a job, so it was up to us. We had a limit of 15-mile per hour speed limit on wind. So it was always</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">up to the monitor to decide whether or not to shut a job down or not. And I thought, man, that's a big</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">responsibility, because some these jobs are pretty important.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I carried around a wind gauge underneath the seat of the pickup. And I thought, well, if necessary, I'll get that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">wind gauge out. Because it got so I could take a look at sagebrush, a light piece a sagebrush. I would take the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">wind gauge out and watch when the wind blow to see when that sagebrush would roll. And I thought, well, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">thing's going to roll maybe 17 mile an hour, and the bigger piece of sagebrush would take a little more wind.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I had this wind gauge out at one job, and the wind was 16 miles an hour, so I shut the job down. Well, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">went over like a l</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ead balloon with the rigging</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> supervisor. We were on a diversion box, BX tank farm. And he</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">says, I'm </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">going to call up your boss, Bob. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">o he did, and my boss came out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">By then, the wind had stopped, but I hadn't said anything about you could go back to work. And he says, Bob, how</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">come you shut the job down? I says, well, it says on R</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">N</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">WP 15 miles an hour. Here's the wind gauge</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">16. He says,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, it doesn't look like it's blowing now. I says, well, it's not. As far I'm concerned, they can start working again, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they did.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But every once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">while, you would be challenged. Once again I was challenged. I was working with the D&D</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">group. We were at 100 K burial ground. Sometimes the waste in the burial ground will either travel down deeper,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">or sometimes they could go up, or they can go to the left or to the right over a period of time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> And we had a car—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e had one monitor that would drive this SUV-type instrument around where it has radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> detectors on the front bumper. And he would drive over to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> tank farm. Whenever it would have a spot above the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">limits, like the limits on the tank farm are maybe 100 counts a minute above background. Well, whenever he hit</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">this limit, why, it would alarm.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So they notified our group that they needed to go in and lay some more dirt down, so they did. They were doing</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">this job, putting more dirt on top of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> dirt. And this engineer</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they were running out of money for these truck</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">driver</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> to do that. And he says to my boss in radiation monitoring, he says</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we have to radiation monitors</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">checking the tires of these </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">trucks that were coming and going. And says, why not check every truck coming in and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">out, going in and out? Why not every other truck or maybe only two tires instead of all four?</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> And I said, no, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> can't do that. Because we had run into </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">exactly that same problem at N Area once. It wasn't me, i</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">was another radiation monitor. He had decided on zone that I'm going to start checking every other truck. Well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">one of these trucks cam</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">e up with hot tires from the N A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rea place, and he tracked contamination down the highway</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a ways, and that's not good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I says, well, I'm not going to do that. So the engineer was so mad, he went up to my supervisor. And I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">my supervisor took word over to the manager of radiation protec</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">tion for all of the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">reas at that time. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">some</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">where there, my supervisor had told me tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">t, Bob, don't survey every tire, just s</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">urvey some of them. And I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">so mad at that, I said to myself, I can't do that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">We go through a certification program that you don't compromise the situation. So I was all set to go back to work,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">but I was going to check all four tires. And just before I left, my supervisor came back and said, our top manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">says, keep doing it the way you have</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">surveying all four tires, so we did. So once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">while, you'd run out of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">money on a job, why, upper management wants to change things, and you can</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">'t do that if you're—why, </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">had resisted that. I figured I might get laid off or fired or something, but it didn't come to that point, thank</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">goodness.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So then, what were some more rewarding aspects of your job and working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, one rewarding thing was the scholarships </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the We</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">stinghouse came up with. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd the other rewarding job was</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">just you knew in your own mind whenever you were doing something right, and there was always a temptation to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">take shortcuts, but a good monitor never did</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ecause we had friends did try that, and they got into trouble so.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">One time I got to note from two former operators I used to work with, and he said</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> been long retired since</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">then, and they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> working</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> as ministers, and they sent me a note that said </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they had appreciated my job as</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">monitoring, that I was different than some of the others. Some of them seemed to not try to get along with other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people, operators, and tried to be too rigid. And they thought that I had tried to do the right thing. So that made</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">me feel pretty good, that even though you sometimes wonder, I thought that I did a good enough job.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So overall, how would you describe or assess Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">I think it's a real good place. There are times when some people think that Hanford is</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">because it's got the most</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">contamination the country, probably because we also made most of the weapons for Hanford, probably 65% or so</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">of all the source of the bomb</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">’s material. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nd I thought that people were trying to do badmouth the plant here too</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">much.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">They also tried to badmouth Hanfo</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">rd DOE—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">or AEC, they called it in those days. But I didn't see it that way,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">because they were always trying to follow rules and regulations, and I thought they did a good job, and I thought</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Hanford overall did a good job.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">My students now, some of them anyway, were born after the Cold War ended. So they have no memory of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Cold War. They don't know much about it. I guess especially for people who are that young that really have no</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">memory, what sorts of things would you like them to know about Hanford or working there?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I think they need to know that, like I do, that I thought that Hanford did a good job of controlling radiation and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the spread of it, because that was my job was to be one of the monitors out there watching these things and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">following the rules and regulations. So since I had a job in controlling it, I knew what was supposed to happen and</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">what did happen. So I got to</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> feel like most all the percentage of the time</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Hanford did a pretty good job of it.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or any specific memories, things that you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">like to talk about that you haven't talked about yet?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, yeah there's one of them that kind of bothered me a little bit. Back in 1966, we had a strike here at Hanford.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And being in </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">the radiation monitoring group—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">that was a union job. So we went on strike for about six weeks.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">During that time, I worked as a kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> electrician helper down in California. California could not get enough</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">electricians to work in their jobs. All their local people were busy, so they called around the country to get other</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">electricians.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, they wanted 20 from Han</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ford, but they could only get ten. So they says, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, we'll take five instrument</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">technicians and five radiation monitors, since we all belong to the same union. However, those radiation monitors</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">have to have worked around electricians for at least a year, so they could help out as a helper.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So my union steer </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">called up one day and said, Bob, do you want to come by and drop your name in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hat and see if it gets drawn out for five guys to go down to Californian? I says, sure, so I did. And luckily enough I</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">did, so I was down there for, well, it was a six-week strike.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">The first week we just stayed home. The next five weeks I worked dow</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">n there. Well, when I got back—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">we would</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">get these bottles, urine bottles, because they wanted to bring everybody up to date. Well, I'd been gone for six</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">weeks, so I put my urine bottle out in front for the truck driver to pick up. Well, he picked it up</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, but a couple, </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">three days later he came back again with some more of them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">So I asked, well, how come I got some more urine bottle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> here? He says, well</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">he shouldn't have told me this</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">bec</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ause he's just a truck driver—b</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ut he says, well, I've had to redeliver several extra bottles around to different</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">people</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ecause t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">here was one guy over to 234-5 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">uilding, where they were making plutonium buttons, that had</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">gotten into an incident and gotten real contaminated. And they thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">nk that the bottles were washed—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">for me to do my</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> sample in—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">well, mine were washed in the same batch that his were, and they cross-contaminated to my bottles.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But that's just a rumor, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hey don't know for sure.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I did get notified by my manage</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">r at that time that I was giving</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> an extra 5 rem of radiation because of those</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">urine bottles. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">And I called him up and I says—</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ill</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> Mc</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Murray was my manager. I says, Bill, I wasn't even here at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">time. How can I get t</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">hat? He says, well, Bob, Battelle</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> had done a lot of updating of their equipment, so maybe</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">they got more sensitive equipment now than th</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ey did six weeks ago. I said, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">, Bill, whatever.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">But anyhow, they put that on my record, and it's been there ever since. They wouldn't take it off. So that kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">miffed me a little bit. That's one of the things you learn to put up with.</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: All right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Anything else that you'd like to share, any other stories or memories?</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: Well, let's see. N</span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">ot offhand. Things went pretty smooth, as far as I was concerned.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and your experiences. I appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Smith</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Well, you're welcome, my pleasure.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX91453010"><span class="TextRun SCX91453010"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX91453010">Thanks.</span><span class="EOP SCX91453010"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:52:37
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
224 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
K Area
100-K Area
200 West Area
PUREX 200 East Area
D Plant
200 Area
N Area
100 Area
K-West Reactor
N Reactor
105 C Reactor
C Reactor
B Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1953-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1953-1993
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob Smith conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/16/2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2016-06-24: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Nuclear instruments & methods
100 Area
100-K Area
105 C Reactor
200 Area
200 West Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
D Plant
Hanford (Wash.)
K Area
K-West Reactor
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
N Area
N Reactor
PUREX 200 East Area
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd35964aec193b1b7fd28948c24cf64e1.jpg
ffbf5469442b4c402cf5a627b074bd5d
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd33967aae97ba9a6a5cefd32188558af.mp4
492460847de1bc4edcc96e8b10af6349
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sally Slate
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Robert Bau</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">man</span>: S</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ay your name and spell your last name for us?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Sally Slate</span>: Okay. Sally Slate. S-L-A-T-E.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. My name’s Robert Bauman and today’s date is August 5</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span class="NormalTextRun SCX184015053">th</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> of 2015. We’re conducting this interview at Sally Slate’s home in Richland, Washington. So let’s—if we could, start by having you give us some background information on when</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> you came to the Tri-Cities</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">, what brought you here?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Well, I was a new graduate from the University of Idaho in June of 1955. I guess I was attracted to this area because I was going with a young man that still had a couple of years of schooling, and I wanted to be kind of close to the Univers</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ity of Idaho for him.</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> Unfortunately, we broke up. [LAUGHTER] But I came as a tech grad for GE. These were three-month assignments where we rotated different assignments. My first assignment was to open up the chemistry lab at PUREX building that was still under construction. </span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And were you familiar with Hanford before you came here? Did you know much about the place?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yes, I was, because we have an atomic energy site near southern Idaho, and my father was working there. So I was quite well-informed. In fact, I’d taken some classes in nuclear energy. </span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">a</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">uman</span>: And had you been to Richland or the Tri-Cities before?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: No.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And did you have a first impression when you arrived?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Well, everybody had told me that I was going to hate it, that it was d</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">esolate, sagebrush. I came here and</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> I thought, gee, I’m at home! Snake River’s just around the corner. And [LAUGHTER] sagebrush, I’m well-acquainted with. Potato fields? Yes. And also, I felt very comfortable.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So you said your first job was opening up the chem lab at PUREX.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Can you describe what that was like? What that work was like?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: It was doing a lot of dish-washing. Because everything had to be taken out of the boxes, we had to figure out where to put it in the lab, we had to get the equipment set up and tested. There were two</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> or three of us doing that job.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And can you maybe explain what PUREX </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">was, for [INAUDIBLE]?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: PUREX i</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">s the separatio</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ns plant that was—the fuel</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> went in on one end of the building and made a continuous run and we got the p</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">lutonium and uranium separated at the end. The REDOX Plant, you had to do it in batches. But this was a continuous process, so it was going to be a little more efficient. As I say, it had not been—they were still under construction at the time that I was out there. And unfortunately, when we got here, nobody had Q clearances, and they thought that we needed Q clearances. So they set us in the unclassified library until they finally figured out that, oh, our clearances are all sitting on somebody’s desk and he’s on vacation, and you don’t need a Q clearance anyways, so put them to work! [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So that was your first job. Where did you go from there?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Oh. The next job was at the REDOX Plant. It was not really a happy experience. I wanted to be in the lab. As a woman chemist, I don’t think they appreciated women chemists in the lab at that time. It was trying to put together a compilation of all of the procedures that were being done, and trying to classify them so that if we got some kind of an assignment, you had to—okay, we need this analysis done. What procedures do we have available to do it? And it was well before the capabilities of our computer systems and everything now. I just didn’t appreciate that assignment. Then I went into the classified library as an abstractor. Where I had to read all of the classified—we were one of four—reading classified materials that came in. Everything from books to reports and anything generated that came into the library. We had to write a small paragraph about what the—without saying anything classified. We did bibliographies, computer searches. Except it wasn’t a computer search, it was a search of the index cards and made up answered questions that would come in. That was an interesting job. But it wasn’t as fun as being in the lab.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And how long did you work there in the classified library?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Well, that was pretty much—well</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> that was a permanent position.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: I worked there until I had been married and was expecting a child. And then they required me to quit.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. So you talked about being a woman chemist and </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">it didn’t seem like you were really welcome in the lab, or that they wanted—were there other women chemists around at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: There were a few. There was a couple of others. Actually—let’s see. I’m thinking as the abstractors, the other chemist who was an abstractor was a mathematician. And the other woman was a mathematician. They were drawing the abstractors from the scientific fields, because you could teach somebody to be an abstractor, but you couldn’t teach the scientific part of it as easily.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Right. So was it a GE policy that when you were married and—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: --y</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ou had to quit?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yes. Five months, period.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, you had five months after you—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: After you got pregnant.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: After you got pregnant, that you could work and then you had to quit.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: That was routine. When I got to working in Idaho for Argonne National Lab, they said I could I work as long as I wanted. As long as I could do the job. Phi</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">l</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">lips Petroleum says, we think you’re pregnant. Prove it that you’re</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> not. Otherwise, you’re gone. There’s d</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">efinite bias there.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: They didn’t want us riding the bus.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: And I was riding a bus 75 miles each way. Twice a day.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Do you know when that policy changed?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: I don’t. Because my next experience out here was in the ‘70s. And by that time, the policy had changed.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Sometime in between there.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Sometime in between.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, it changed. So let’s talk about transportation. You said you had to ride a bus out?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Pretty much every</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">day?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Here in Richland, we had the buses. They would pick up at specified places along the—in town. Or you could drive your car out to the big bus lot, and leave your car there and transfer to the bus that you were going to be going out into the Area on.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. And where was the lot at?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Oh, go out Stevens, on the left-hand side as you go out Stevens.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: They’ve transformed it into—part of it was an area where the police are doing training. After they had just redone the parking lot and spent millions doing the parking </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">lot, then they decided, oh</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">, we’ll close the buses down. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I wanted to ask you about housing when you arrived in Richland. What sort of housing was available, or wasn’t available?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Sla</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">te</span>: Well, when you first come, </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">you check into the Desert Inn, which was the only hotel in town. </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Then you check with the Housing Authority, and the housing office assigns you housing according to your job, and your status—your marital status. And being single, I was assigned to one of the dormitories. And we still see the dormitories around. W-5 was just off of Lee—Lee and Knight. It was definitely a dormitory. It had a house mother. Doors were closed on the weekdays at 10:00 at night. The doors were locked. It was later than that for the weekends. But you had a little room, furnished. If you took the furniture out and put your own furniture in, you couldn’t get their furniture back if you changed your mind. It was cheap.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Do you remember how much it cost?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: I don’t. But something--$20 a month or less.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And so how long did you stay in the dorm then?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: I stayed in the dorm until—well, I went into a private apartment with a friend. And then we got married and went into a two-bedroom prefab down here.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, okay, sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: In the south end of town. When those houses went up for sale, we could have bought that house for $1,875. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. We thought it was too small for us, because by then we had two small children. We bought a pre-cut. Three-bedroom pre-cut from a friend. They didn’t want the house, but if they had just moved into the house that they were going to buy, they would have had to remove all of the improvements that they’d put into the house, which included the wall-to-wall carpeting, drapes, electrical for a dryer, a fenced-in backyard. All of that would have had to have been removed. And they would have lost all of that investment. So they bought the house and sold it immediately to us at a slightly higher price to accommodate for their investments.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: How would you describe Richland in the ‘50s? I know it was a government town, still, when you—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053">
<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: It was government town, yeah. Everything. The schools were—GE ran it all for the government. Police department, schools—just about all of the—anything that had to do with the town.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And did that change significantly when it </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">sort</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> of became its own city, then?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: It was very gradual. They</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> started selling the houses—</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">we became a town in October of </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">’</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">5</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">7? ’57. And th</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">e houses were being sold in ’58. E</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">arly ’58, we bought our house on Smith.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I know one of the events from the community happenings or things was when President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Were you here then?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: ’63</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> we were not.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, had you—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: We had left. Took a while to wander around to Idaho and Washington, but kept coming closer and closer, and finally said, we got to go home.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: You talked about having to get a—well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> you thought you had to get</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> your Q clearance, then didn’t have to get a Q clearance. What was security like at Hanford at the time? Would that impact your work—I mean you were </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">working in classified libraries, so that part--</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yeah. You could get into—up to the 300 Area. But there was a barrier there. You couldn’t go through the bar</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">rier without a clearance. You </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">had to have at least a Q clearance—or </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">not a Q clearance, a N</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">il clearance is what they called it, was the beginning clearance. But then to get into the 200 Area, and to get into Two West, you had to have a Q clearance. That was just—you had a badge and it had your type of clearance on it. If you were working around the areas where there was a lot of radiation or po</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">tential radiation, then you’d wear</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> pencils, and you might wear a ring. The ring would be checked weekly, and if it showed anything, then they would check your badge. Badges were changed ou</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">t, I think, on a monthly basis.</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> I never was in a situation where I accumulated anything. You had hand and shoe counters that you had to check into the building</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> and check out of the building—</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">using the hand and shoe counters to make sure you weren’t carrying anything there. Because those would be the two areas that would be most apt to pick up something. </span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So where was the classified library located?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: In the 300 Area. The building is still there. I don’t remember the building number. It was across from 319.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And you mentioned—so you got married in—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: In March of ’56.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay, and did your husband also work at Hanford then?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And what area did he work in?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: He was at Three West Area. The REDOX area.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: We happened to be riding the same bus together.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Is that how you met?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Sla</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">te</span>: Actually, we met at the Mart</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> cafeteria. That building on Lee and Knight that has Sirs and Hers Barbershop and had a gun shop in there. But at that time it was a 24-hour cafeteria. There was a drugstore in part of it. And there was a jewelry store up front and a little lounge area, the Evergreen Lounge, in the back. We’d just—I’d just gotten off of my first day of swing shift.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: And he had just gotten off work. We were in there having coffee. The girl I was with knew him, and knew the other fellow that he was with. But then I discovered that we rode the same bus. Or, rather, I made sure we rode the same bus. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">So how was Hanford as a place to work, then? I know you talked about not really being able to work as a chemist [INAUDIBLE]</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Well, I don’t think it was any different than working anywhere else at that time. Because there were restrictions everywhere. My origi</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">nal plan when going to college—</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">I wanted to be a veterinarian. And after one year of pre-vet being the only girl in the School of Agriculture, I was told there was no way in hell that a woman would be accepted into the School—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: --of Veterinary Science. And that I needed to choose something else. So, I went into chemistry, which is another love that I had. I was one of two women—first two that had graduated in chemistry in five years from the University of Idaho. And now, you know what percentage of women are. Far more women than men. And the same veterinary school now.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">[PHONE CHIMES]</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Sorry about that. Talking about Richland, I was going to ask you one other question about the town. In terms of entertainment or things to do for fun, what was there in the area in 1955, ’56?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Well, pretty much the same things that we have now. </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">The </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Richland Players was a movie house at that time. The roller skating rink was there. We could ride horses—we could rent horses out on Van Giesen. Boating. Pretty much the same mix of things that we have now. At that time, we had the symphony, we had Richland Players, although they were having their plays in the schools at that time. But those were the things—and bowling. </span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So when did you move away from Richland, and when did you come back then?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Oh. We left in ’58, ’59. We left in ’59—June of ’59. And we came back for good in ’71.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Had the place changed a lot in that time?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Grown! Yes. Not so much Richland. Although it was beginning to grow. But the areas between Richland and Kennewick that used to be grapev</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ines and all kinds of farmland where </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Columbia Center was getting started and it just—I didn’t know my way around.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER] Are there any things I haven’t asked you, or anything you’d like to talk about that you haven’t had a chance to talk abo</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ut yet, in terms of your work</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> at Hanford, or--?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: At Hanford? Of the early years?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah!</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: I don’t know. I enjoyed it very much. It was very mentally stimulating. And even the recreational things that were here were—because we had the symphony, we had the Richland Players. And it’s good to see that they are growing. If we’d only get our performing arts center.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I’m with you on that. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Man three: We’re with you.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: And they’re saying 20, 30 years, and I don’t have that many years left, I’m afraid.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us come to your home and interview you, talk to you. I appreciate your sharing your experiences with us very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Well, it’s been kind of interesting, thinking back to those days.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: I had a quick question, comment.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yeah?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: So when you were in the labs—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: What would you do? What were you doing in, like the PUREX or the—what sort of thing would you do?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Oh. Well, the laboratory was an analytical lab. And they were divided into hot sections and cold sections. The hot section would receive the really radioactive materials that had to be handled in big glass-enclosed, with lead—a glass so wide. But I was never involved in that real high level. By the time I got things, it was down to the very low level radioactive materials that we could handle in a hood with ventilation. We wore just a lab coat. I’m trying to think if we even, in those days—I don’t think even at REDOX that I was involved with anything higher than just very low level materials. And we would separate out the plutonium or the uranium out of the fraction that we got, and would pipette it onto steel planchets. Little steel discs. And then the discs would go downstairs to the counting lab, and would be put into the counting lab and they would determine how many counts per minute were coming off of that. That would tell them the amount of radiation that there was, the amount of material that there was in that. We did everything in duplicates and triplicates, to make sure that we hadn’t made a mistake.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Right.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Most everything was done triplicates</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: So you didn’t work in the hot cells because of gender?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: No, no. I didn’t work in the hot cells because I didn’t work in the—I was never assigned to it.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: But that wasn’t a gender-based—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: No.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: I was trying to—</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: No, I don’t think it was gender-based at all.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: The other question I had was—so, GE and stuff, if you</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> we</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">re five months pregnant, then that was the time to separate.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: Yep.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: Did you have a job to come back to, or that was terminated?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: [LAUGHTER] You had a job to come back to if there was a job available. That was part of the reasoning, they said, </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">oh, that </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">going into the classified laboratory was perfect for you, because there’ll always be a job available. Little did they know that computers were coming along, and computers were going to do all the abstracting and all the bibliography. You’d punch in a question and they’d come out with all the answers of here’s the materials that we have available on that subject. So computers did away with that job.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">Had your old job been available, would you have had it, or would you have had to reapply?</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>: I would have had to reapply.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> Yeah, it wasn’t an automatic thing.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Right.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Slate</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"> You were expected, as a young married mother, to stay home with your children. At least until they got into school. That wasn’t to say that there weren’t people who went back to work right away. But it was not the usual thing. Of course, I wanted to be able to stay home with the kids. By the time I had three, I had to go to work. [LAUGHTER] By that time, I started looking around and thinking, well, what can I do? I can go back to school and get a job as a teacher. So I got my teaching degree. And I taught school for five years until we decided we got to go home, we got to come back here to Richland. And that’s when I got back into the chemistry.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: All right, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX184015053">ell, thank you again very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man three</span>: Thanks.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I really appreciate your time and letting us come in here. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX184015053"><span class="TextRun SCX184015053"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Man one</span>: Okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX184015053"> </span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:30:46
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
223 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
200 Area
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
Sally Slate passed away on July 26, 2017.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Sally Slate
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Sally Slate conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
8/5/2015
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
200 Area
300 Area
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9868b23ec896cee8f1bd7b5406cbcb37.jpg
943e003304bc16627b626299707171f6
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F818a1b8ac4e1d8e8126ec135ee171497.mp4
01a5d6cb8e7cbb12aaaaf554dc00d91c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ronald Kathren
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span class="SpellingError SCX237597792">Kathren_Ronald</span></span></strong><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br /></span></span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Ron Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">My name is Ron Kathren.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: All right. And my name is Robert Bau</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">man</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and we're conducting this oral history interview on the campus of Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">State University. And today's date is July 30th of 2013.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">we’re going to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">start by</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Ron, just having you talk about when yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">u first arrived in Tri-Cities, when you came to Hanford, h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ow</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that came about.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span>Kathren</span></span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I came to the Tri-Cities the fir</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">st time to a scientific meeting,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I think it was 1963. There wasn't much here then, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">for some reason I rather fell in love with the place.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Subsequently, I acquired a wife who was a native Washingtonian. And I remember telling her how I liked this part</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of the state. She's from the other side of the mountains, so she was used to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the lush green forests and what-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">have</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you. But one thing led to another</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">do you want the long story</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Bob?</span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></span></span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Yeah, go for the long story.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One of the people from Battelle came down to visit. This was common in those days. I was working at what's now</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Lawrence Livermore National Lab. And he came down to visit me. We did these technical exchanges. And he</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">spent two days. He also had a good friend that he was visiting over at Stanford. And he actually stayed at my</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">home.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Well, I couldn't figure out why he was there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> And I finally asked him, Harold, what the devil are you doing here?</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And he really didn't want to say. And the reason was the Atomic Energy Commission in those days, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">predecessor to the Department of Energy, had kind of an unwritten rule that one contractor or</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> one</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> lab was not</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">supposed to steal people </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">from another lab.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And Harold just finally open</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ed up and he said, well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I'm here to hire you.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> And I was floored because I had wanted</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">to get up to Hanford. Part of the reason was the type of work they were doing here was really relevant to my</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">interests and what I had been doing at Livermore. And it seemed to be a more, shall I say, happy climate</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> morale</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wise.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> And so in 1967, in July of ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">67, we moved to Richland. My wife was very pregnant. And we now have three</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">generations of the Kathren family here in Richland.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o what sort of work were you doing at Livermore?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I was doing health physics. I was actually in charge of the cali</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">bration--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">radiological</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> calibration lab there. And we </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">used film badges in those days. And the film dosimetry group. So had other respons</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ibilities too, but those were my main responsibilities there. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And by the way I'll just mention this, one of the things tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t really intrigued me—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">we </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">had done an intra-comparison of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">film badges and calibrations for plutonium, wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ich was of interest. When I say</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">“</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e,” we had done it with Hanford, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Los Alamos, and Livermore. Because there was some question about how well we were measu</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ring the very low </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">energy pho</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">tons--that are actually x-rays--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that are associat</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ed with the decay of plutonium. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And as it turned out, Los Alamos and Livermore were right on target. Hanford, wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ich I would have expected to be </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the one to match, was quite a large percentage different from our results. And whe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">n I got up here, that was one of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the things that I figured out. And that's a long story we won't go into.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> came in ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">67?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: Came in July of ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">67.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And who was the pri</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">mary contractor at that time? Was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> that who you were working for?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">It was Battelle. There were actually three contractors. What they had done in 1965 wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s to diversify the site. It had </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">all been General Electric. And they wanted to make this into a more normal comm</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">unity, not so heavily dependent </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">on the site. And so they put out requests for proposals. And the bidders had to put </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">in some sort of normal activity </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">n addition to running the site. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Battelle won the contract for the resear</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ch labs. And their promise was--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and they </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">did it—to build $20 million of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">private research facilities. And they also had what was called a use permit, s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o they could use the government </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">facilities for private r</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">esearch, paying a fee for this. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And the government</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> in turn</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> could use the Battelle facilities for government research, paying a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">fee also. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The other two contractors, as I recall, were Douglas United Nuclear</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> which was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> consortium of Douglas Aircraft </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the United Nuclear. And they ran the reactors. Their contribution was the con</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">struction of the Donald Douglas </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Laboratories which are no </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">longer extant</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. And among other things, they were work</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ing on the artificial heart and isotopic power sources. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And the third one</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I believe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> was Isochem. They didn't last long. They were in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">reas, the waste areas. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">their idea was to take up the radi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">oactive species in the waste areas</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> to remove them and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">use them for various beneficial </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">purposes. You can use, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">for example, oh, say, cobalt-60. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">You can take that out of the waste and concentrate it and then you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> can</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> give high radi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ation doses to certain kinds of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">flooring materials</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">they do this now</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that are injected with plastic into the wood </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and it strengthens them. And it </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">makes the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">m far more resistant to damage. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Isochem didn't last long. And they were replaced by Atlantic Richfield. And Atlantic Richfield brought a risk</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> capital </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">venture plan. And also a cattle feedlot facility. So I got here just about the time </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Isochem was getting ready to go </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and Atlantic Richfield was getting ready to come in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I'm going to comment quickly about Atlantic Richfield and their risk capital. I got the great idea that the area here</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">is perfect for growing walnuts. I had been living in Walnut </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Creek. I lived in an </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">old walnut orchard. I'm kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">interested in things like that. In fact, today in my dotage re</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">tirement I'm a master gardener. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But the first thing I had to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> do was to convince the county </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ag</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">gent that this area wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s suitable for growing walnuts. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">An</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d I remember he was insistent that it just couldn't happen here. That th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e frosts were t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">oo early, and all kinds of other </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">things. And I was pointing out to him all the r</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">easons why this area was ideal. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And also from an economic standpoint, the walnut orchards in California we're bei</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ng cut down for subdivisions or </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the trees were being destroyed by a disease. I think it's called black ledge, or black</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">black</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">black</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ooh oh I can't </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">remember now. Walnut trees down in Californi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a are grafted. And at the graft,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> it wo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">uld develop this black line and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">they'd die. The upper part. The part where the nuts were produced. That w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ouldn't happen here because the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">winters are sufficiently cold to prevent that disease from occurring. I think it's a vira</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">l disease. In any event, when I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">convinced him, I drafted up a little proposal and I went to Atlantic Richfield's risk ca</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">pital thing and pointed out all the merits of this. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Walnut trees don't need a lot of care. You don't prune them heavily the way you </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">do grapes or apples. They could </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">be flood irrigated a couple times a year, so you didn't need extensive irrigation syste</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ms. Harvesting is really fairly </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">easy. One of the ways to do is just put a big net under the tree and come along w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ith a shaker and shake the tree </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and all the nu</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ts drop, and you gather them up. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And to be econ</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">omically sound, you had to have, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I figured</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> maybe 100 to 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> acres. Because they have to be </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">washed and dried afterwards. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> you didn’t need—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t was not labor intensive. And Atlantic Richfield,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I remember the guy telling me, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">well, that's a super idea you've got. And can even be done with college students pri</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">marily. But the problem is it's </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">not labor intensive enough. And we want to create jobs. So that's a long story, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ut that gives you some feeling. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I really,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> we did by the way, my father-in-law brought two walnut trees, volunteers,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> from our home in Walnut Creek. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Kept them in coffee cans for</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, I think,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> about two years. And we built our house here and I planted the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">m. Then they just did wonderfully. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So sorry to get off on a tangent here.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: That’s all right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So when you first arrived and started working at Battelle, what sorts of things were you working on initially?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I was hired in as the Manager of External Dosimetry. And external dosimetry ma</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">intained and calibrated all the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">portable radiation monitoring instruments used on the site. It was a site wid</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e function. And one of my chief </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">responsibilities was to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">update the pool of instruments. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I think they had some 1</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">600 instruments. Most of them were pretty old. I think ev</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ery one of them was home built. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">They didn't go commercial. And one of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> my ideas was to go commercial. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And I started to build the calibrati</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">on lab, which now Battelle has—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">people who took it </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">after me really did a fine job. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One of them was Jack Selby, who just passed away and who we mentioned earlier. His</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> group really built it into a—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">not that it wasn't under me of course, but a first class standards laboratory</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> for radiological calibrations. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And also we oversaw the contractor that did the dosimetry, the film badges for</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> the site, and responded to any </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">potential over-exposures from external radiation. That was basically what my initial job here was.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ow long did you do that sort of work?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I think three years I was in that job. And then Battelle had a reorganization</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s kind of messy, but I chose to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">stay with my boss. And he had a radiological group that included the dosimetry an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d so on. But I stayed with them </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and it did many other assignments. A whole variety of things. I was kind </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of his go-to-it guy. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">He was once asked by another manager, how do you manage Ron? And he looked at the guy and said, you don't.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">He said, you just let him go and do his thing. And if he </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">gets too far down the road you don't want him on, you just</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">jerk him back.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But he was really one of the finest people I've ever known. And very good manager.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And who was this? What was his name?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">This was Harold Larson. And Harold was somewhat older than me. And well, we ju</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">st fit together. For many years </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">later, I was his staff assistant and got all these problems to solve. And it was gre</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">at fun. Is was a challenge. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you never</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> knew what was going to happen. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One of the things we did</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that fits in with the history scheme</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">there were what</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> were called service assessment </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">dollars. All the contractors</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> got assessed. A certain amount—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">percentage in their </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">contracts to pay for plant-wide </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">services. These included the centralized dosimetry records, and the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> calibrations group, et cetera. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">After this organization change, and I was Harold's staff assistant, we used to go</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> out and visit our clients, our </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">customers, every month or maybe every three weeks. Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> they're out in the 2</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">00 and 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">reas. And what we'd </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">usually do is we'd take a car and our lunch and go out and visit one in the morning and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">then one in the afternoon. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And in between, we'd go eat our lunch. And sometimes we'd g</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o to the old Hanford town site. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One day we were there</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and this shows you how Harold thinks</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—because </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">he was very quic</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">k. So here are a couple of guys in suits—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">coats and ties anyw</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ay—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wanderin</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">g around the old Hanford site, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hich</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> was not supposed to be open as </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">such. We had badges and our b</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">adges permitted us in that area. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ut up drives </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a security vehicle. And the guy </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">leaps o</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ut it comes up and looks at us. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And if you're going to be out there, you probably should be wearing some kind </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of coveralls or what-have-you. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">He looks at us and he says, what are you guys doing here? And Harol</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d without missing a microsecond </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">responded, oh, we're out checking our environmental monitoring program. We also h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ad responsibility for the plant-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wide environmental monitoring program. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> that just was the end of that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But if it had been I to whom that question was posed,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I'd probably still be in jail. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: So let’s--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">how long then did you work for Battelle?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I worked for Battelle for roughly five years. They had been closing do</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wn reactors, there was a lot of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">unemployment, a lot of people job hunting. Not I. But I had another problem. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that problem was with one of my </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">children who needed specia</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">l medical care and dental care. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I like small towns. In fact, that was one of the real appeals to coming to Richland. But small towns have</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and in </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">those days it was really bad</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a lack of certain amenities that the big cities have</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. And at the time there were, I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">think, two pediatricians in town. One was incompetent and the other wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s an alcoholic. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And here was a child that really needed a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I could see us mak</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ing lots of trips to Children's </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Hospital in Seattle. It was very w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">orrying for my wife</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> by the way. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And also Battelle's medical plan at the time had a $25,000 lifetime limit, which the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">y probably would have extended, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">but we already had quite a bit into that. So, there was a position that came up in Por</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">tland working in industry and I jumped on that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">It was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">couldn't wait to get back here. </span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And at what point did you come back</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> then</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> to Tri-Cities?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">We came back six years later.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">it </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">would have been what year</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, about, roughly</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">78.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: ‘78. And did you come back wor</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">king at Battelle?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I came back to Battelle.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And what sort of position</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> or job</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I was a staff scientist and Harold Larson's staff assistant.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And how long did you, at that point then, remain with Battelle?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Well, that's an interesting question. I say it's interesting because I got involved in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I don't know how—but by </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">chance, something I'd always wanted to do. And that was to get involved wit</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">h the transuranium and uranium registries. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And I was doing that. And other program I had was the environmental dose overview</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> for the site. And Battelle had </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">another organization change. I used to joke that Battelle had an organization change, a major change</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, every other </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">year. And a minor change in every m</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">onth it didn't have an R in it. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So they had this change, and Harold lost the department in a consolidation an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d so on. And the new department </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">manager was not really a very good manager. And I think he wanted to get rid of a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ll of a people he had inherited </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">from Harold. I being one of them. And I'm on his staff. So </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that wasn't going the greatest. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And working for the registries, that's a different contractor. That's the medical c</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ontractor, medical records. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">they, for obvious reasons, did not want the medical records removed from th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">eir building. You know, there are privacy </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">qu</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">estions. Even in those days there were serious privacy concerns. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And he basically ordered me to stop going over there and bring the things I needed bac</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">k. Couldn't do it. So I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wandered into the President of the Hanford Environmental Health Foundation an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d basically said, you're paying </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Battelle so much a year for my time</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and I think I was half-time. This</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> might have been only 40%</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I said, how would </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you like me</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> full time for the same money? </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And how are you going to do that? I said, well, I'll just transfer over here. And I did. I worked out what they call a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">termination for transfer. So I kept my seniority and so on and went over there. And that was great. That was really</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">outstanding.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Do you want to explain what the uranium registry and transuranium registries are?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: Okay, how many hours do we have? [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Quickly, I guess.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Back in the late '60s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">well, let me start this way</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Plutonium is an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> anthropogenic </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">element. It's manmade if I can </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">use the politically </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">correct terminology th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">at everybody still understands. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And so our experience with it has come from the Manhattan District</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, largely. It's a highly radiotoxic element, but </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">there's no animal data except for what was done in the Manhattan District. Bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t animals aren't humans and you </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">need human data. Hum</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">an information. And what's going to happen to these workers? </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So they created, in I think it was 1968, the National Plutonium Registry to study pl</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">utonium in people. And this was </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">not the usual epidemiologic type study. It was a post mortem</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> study where people in advance of death volunteered </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">to permit an autopsy. Or in so</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">me cases a whole body donation. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And those tissues would be analyzed then for plutonium. So that we could determine where it went in the body</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">where it deposited, how long it stayed there, if you got enough data, whether there w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ere any biological effects that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you could attribute to it. In other words, we did what are called biokinetics, how</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> it moved through the body. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the dosimetry, et ceter</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a. Well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> that was fascinating to me. And I had always wanted to work in that. Wel</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">l, in the fullness of time, the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">plutonium registry expanded to other heavy elements including americium. And t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hen a separate parallel uranium registry was created. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">It's interesting to note that although humans have known about uranium for 200 yea</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rs, until the Kosovo War, there </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was interest, there were studies, but there wasn't the concern. Because urani</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">um, always radioactive, natural </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">uranium and depleted uranium are a greater hazard from their chemical toxicity </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">than from their radiotoxicity. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So there were these two parallel registries. And ultimately they combined i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nto one. And I guess, does that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">answer?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Yeah, yeah, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. That'</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d be good for you to explain it--</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: --for people who</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> might want to watch this, yeah. So you've got involved in that. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">at some point you also starting </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">teaching at WSU Tri-Cities, is that right?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I taught my first class on this campus in 1970.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And how did that happen? How did you get involved teaching here?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">When I came up here, I had been teaching at a community college at night. I'</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d set up a program in radiation </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">technology and had taught in that c</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ommunity college in California. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> like to teach. In fact, I dare</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">say that my happiest hours have been spent in the class</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">room, providing I have a tall </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">enough lectern so I can duck down when they throw things. But in all seriousness, th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">at is really what I like to do. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So I came here and right off the bat</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> they had a radiation technology program at the local community college. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nd I taught in that for a year. And then this was--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the predecessor to WSU Tri-Cities, was the Joint Center for G</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">raduate Study. And I offered to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">teach a refresher course for individuals who are going to be sitting for the Hea</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">lth Physics Certification Exam. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">There's a board certification exam. And sure, why</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> not? That was my first course. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The old Joint Center at that time had three university sponsors</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Oregon State, W</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ashington State, and University </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of Washington. And that was done through the University of Washington.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And then later I was asked to be a member of the radiological sciences </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">faculty o</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">f the University of Washington. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Something I did part-time at night. A lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> us</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> did. There were more than 100 adj</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">uncts--UW </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">called them affiliates, but it's the same difference. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nd so I do that for many years. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But a lot of machinations and organization changes. And the perception of people wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o are affected is far different </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">than the perce</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ption of those who make changes [LAUGHTER] as you probably—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">all you have all found out</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I'm sure</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, in life. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Ultimately, the branch campus was created. By that time I had not only an affiliate</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> professorship at U of W</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, but I also had an adjunct appointment </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">in environmental sciences here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And without going into too much detail, we converted the USTUR, the registry's con</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">tract, into a grant and brought it to WSU. This was in ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">92. The offici</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">al day was Valentine's Day of ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">92, whi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ch was a Sunday. But we brought </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">over $3.76</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> million on a three year grant. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And the registries had been subject to a lot of criticism from activist groups. Statements like</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and I want to make a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">point here, so bear with me</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">these activist groups made all kinds of accusations </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">like body snatchers, et cetera. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">There's one person in particular, a newspaper reporter, and she was just gung ho.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> This was a time of real ferment </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a lot of anti-nuclear activity. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Anyway, we move</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> them over and I don't think we'd been over here for more th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">an two or three weeks. I had an </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">office in the other building and a secretary. And one day the phone rings</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> it's so</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">me guy from, I think it was the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Seattle P.I., but he w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">as from a newspaper in Seattle. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">This was not extraordinary for me. I have had a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">lot of dealings with the press. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But anyway, he said something about he wanted to know about the registries and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">about our body snatching. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">said, body snatching? I said, oh, the university wouldn't permit that. And he said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> university? What university? I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">said, Washington State University. The registries are part of WSU. And his words were,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> oh, well, I guess there's no </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">story then. And he hung up. I never even got the guy's name.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So I point this out</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you can't always see it face value, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">things in the newspaper or what-have-you, and realize that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you're getting the full story</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> because one minute we were body snatchers and the next minute, oh, there's no story.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So how long</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> then</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> were you connected with running the transuranium registry?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Retired in 1999.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And so during your time at Hanford, the transuranium registry and so forth, what were your list o</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">f some of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">most rewarding aspect of the work you were doing? And what was maybe some </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of the more challenging aspects </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of what you were doing?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Well, this may not be the answer you're seeking, but if you ask me what the mos</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t rewarding aspect of my career </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and I've often said I would not swap careers with anybody else. I just had </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a lot of frustrations, a lot of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">difficulties</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">y’</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">re over here and they're far outweighed by the pleasure</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s. And my greatest was with the students and with teaching. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I look back, a lot of my former students wandering around, and I look back on t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hem and the successes that many </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">of them had. I presume you get the same kinds of feelings, Bob, when you see w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hat they do. And I'd think, who are my all-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">time best students? Well, there's one</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> that--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">aybe yes, maybe no--was the all-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">time best</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">how do you rate </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the best? But she was certainly one of the top three. And she's now the Chai</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rman of the Nuclear Engineering Program at Oregon State. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Another one is one of the Assistant Directors, or whatever, at Battelle.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> And he's done incredibly well. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The third one was a lady that I had known. And when we were in Portland I had a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ssociation with Reed College. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">don't know if you've ever heard of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">In any event, she was a big, tall gal. And I'm not very tall</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> as you know. And she</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> must have weighed at least 220 </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">pounds. Very large, very large woman. And I remembered telling her one day, Ellen, you are arguably my best</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">student. But unarguably my most obnoxious.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">She was from New Jersey and you can figure</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I love</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">her. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I might</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> breakup when I tell you this,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [EMOTIONAL]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> but I really did love</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> her. And I'd see her at scientific meetings and she'd run up to me and put h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">er arms around me and it's just great. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">She came here and got a job on-site. She's a good teacher. She's a great teache</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">r. I remember she's teaching at </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the community college somewhere in the East, in New Jersey. And that dried</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> up and she got a job out here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And here she was an absolutely brilliant lady. She wasn't all that difficult. You just had to understand her.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> But she </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was just wonderful in her technical knowledge and in her drive to get things done. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And just wonderful. But she had </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">one thing that was a problem. She got stuck in training because she was a wo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">man. And that's what you did in </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">those days with women and minorities. It's like, they were stuck. Showcased. Sh</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e wanted to get out and get her hands dirty. No way. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So she started looking for another job and she finally found one at University of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Arizona. And it was great. She </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was the radiation safety officer, she also had a faculty appointment, and she and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I were actually very close. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">we had worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">we were planning to give a one week, special, short course. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> we worked out the outline. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">we were going to do this the next summer at the Health Physics meet</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">In early December I got a phone call from somebody I didn't know, who was her</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> department head, who said that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">she died. She had valley fever, compromised immune system, 41 years old. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And when she knew she was dying, s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">he </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">told him, when she died to please call h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">er mother and me. Dad was dead. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">That's the kind of thing that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and in other ways</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> you touch lives. And hopefully you </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">touch them in a beneficial way. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Did a lot other things in my career that I had great fun with in the teaching, the registries. That was t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">errific. I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">those were the most</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> productive years of my career. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Earlier on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> was involved with radiological measurements, calibrations, an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d so on. And trying to make our measurements better dose-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wise. But I did a whole bunch of things. Even the years I spe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nt in industry at the utility—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and boy</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> did they have a different philosophy</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">you learn a lot. And I just feel as if</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I've made a contribution. I've </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">certainly been satisfied.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One thing I want to ask you about is your involvement with the Glenn Seaborg pa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">pers project. How did that come </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">about? How did you get involved in it and that sort of thing?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I grew up in Los Angeles. And I remember taking high school chemistry and lea</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rning about the heavy elements. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And I was just fascinated by these. So in the back of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> my mind that was always there. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Many, many years later I became the President of the Health Physics Society. One</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> of my colleagues, good friends </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">at the University of Utah, actually said something about, we ought to invite Glenn Seaborg to talk about plu</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">tonium. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">He was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> a plutonium chemist, this guy. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Well, I also had another good friend who had worked with Glenn at the Met Lab. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> he said, well, I can just call </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Glenn. That impressed me quite a bit because Glenn Seaborg, of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> course, a Nobel Prize winner, f</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">or</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">mer </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Chancellor at University of California, and worked with [INAU</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">DIBLE]. Just a towering figure. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Well doggone if I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">didn't talk to Glenn and invite</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> him down and he agreed. So I had seen he had written</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—he was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">diarist</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and he'd written these diaries for the World War II that were published</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> as internal documents from the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Lawrence Berkeley Lab. And I thought, jeez these are terrific. This would make a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">great book. And edit it, and so on, and identify people. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ut anyway, he came down to the Health P</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hysics meeting. I had one night free an</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d I set up a reception for him. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Just a private reception. And by the way, the guest book from that reception I thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nk I've donated to the archives here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Glenn was just the most humble person. He was great. And I asked him about d</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">oing that book. He said, what a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">wonderful idea. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Why don't you do it? [LAUGHTER] So we did. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I enlist</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ed the aid of a real historian; </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that was Jerry Gough. Jerry enlisted the aid o</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">f one of his graduate students; </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that was Gary Benefiel. And we edited and annotated with over 700 biograp</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hical sketches. Identified just about </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">everybody in the Section C-1, I think it was, the one that did the plutonium work.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Glenn gave it the title. I said, what do you think we ought to call this? Well, The </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Plu</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">tonium Story, of course. But he </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was great and we had </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a lot of interfaces after that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I also wanted to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">another thing he wrote that I was planning on doing something </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">similar with, but unfortunately</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Glenn</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">died before that could be done. Does that answer that?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Yeah, yeah it does.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">If you</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">one quick thing about Seaborg. He came to the meeting, thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s annual meeting of the Health and Physics Society. I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">n't met him yet. And he's standing in one of the lecture rooms. And h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e's up on the dais and I'm with </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">this friend of mine who had worked with him. And we walk in and Glenn looks up</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and my friend says, hi, Glenn! </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And Glenn looks at him, hi, by first name</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, you know</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. And it was just</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">he's just one of the guys. I've never met anybody</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—I’ve met, in </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">my day</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I've known three Nobel Prize </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">winners. They're all different. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One quick story about another one. I was at a meeting in San Francisco and I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> was doing some work on carbon. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And I asked this individual, we were chatting on something about carbon. She's says, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">oh, I got a big file on it. Why </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">don't you give me your card and I'll send you a p</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">aper on that. Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I gave the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">individual my card. And about ten </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">days after the meeting</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, I got a package in the mail. All—I guess t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">he entire file on radiocarbon h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ad been put in there, including </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a paper that I myself had written.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> It was apparently unlike Glenn. It was just, well, I'</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ll just send him everything and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">get him off my back. Glenn would have sat down and well, let's see. What is </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">it you want and how can we best </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">accommodate you?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">en was it that you first met Glenn</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">? When was it?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Oh gosh, I was Society President </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I think ‘89 or ‘</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">90, somewhere around there.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And so you were very actively involved in the Health Physics Society. How long ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ve you been involved in Health </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Physics Society?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Since 1960. I'm a life member, so they can't get rid of me yet.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> then I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the Parker Foundation? Ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">plain what that is and how that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">came about.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Herb Parker was an interesting person. He was a medical physicist init</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ially. And he was from England, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Manchester. Happens my grandmother was for Manchester, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> that's neither here nor there. And Herb, in the 1930</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s, developed along with a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> physician—r</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">adiologist named Ralston P</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">atterson, a technique for doing </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">radium dosimetry. Radium was the only radioactive material. And it was widely used particularly for ute</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rine and cervical cancers. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And doing the dosimetry you have to calculate the doses based on the shapes. If</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> they're a needle or some other </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">geometry, calculations can be very difficult. But it's important to know the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">doses obviously, because you're </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">destroying a cancer</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> hopefully. And the Patterson-Parke</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">r techniques evolved from that. Herb came here in the 1930</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s. He w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ent to Seattle in the late 1930</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s to work</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> on what were then called super voltage x-rays, v</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ery high energy x-rays. And of course, now we have a lot of high </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">energy stuff which is useful at treating cancer—c</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ertain cancers. More useful than and radium. And he went to work f</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">or the Manhattan District first at Oak </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">R</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">idge</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and was basically hand-picked to come</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> here because of his abilities. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Herb was an interesting person. He did not suffer fools gladly. In fact, he did not suffe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">r fools at all. [LAUGHTER] He did a lot of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">things. He was the first</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">there was actually a unit. Well, in the old days, all we had was a unit based on air</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ionization called the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span class="SpellingError SCX237597792">rankine</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. And that worked for x and gamma rays, but it didn't work for other things, particularly,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">neutrons and beta rays.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And Herb really came up with the concept of absorbed energy. Not ionization </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">air. And he created a unit that </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">enjoyed a short lifespan. It had quantity. Quantity was energy absorbed in matter.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> The unit was, he called it the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rep, for </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span class="SpellingError SCX237597792">rankine</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> equivalent physical. And it also got the name of the Parker. If</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> you look at an old McGraw-Hill </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">dictionary of science and technology, you'll see the Parker in there. And that later </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">evolved into a more useful kind of thing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> It didn't change the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">basic concept, but he did that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And he set up the program here. Which was remarkable</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> because we had no real e</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">xperience with plutonium. Zero. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So to shorten that up, Herb was actually the head of the Hanford Laboratori</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">es. Under General Electric, the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Hanford Laboratories were a research group and they were world famous.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> When Battelle came in, Hanford </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Laboratory ceased to exist. Herb was retained as a consultant to Battelle. And ulti</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">mately, he passed away. I think in ‘83 or thereabouts. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Bill Bair, who you're going to interview I'm sure, had worked closely with Herb. Bill </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">is a radiation biologist and he </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was manager of the biology department. Or maybe the Life Sciences Center at the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">time. But anyway, he got </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Battelle and the Parker family to kick some dollars</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and start a Parker Foundation, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">he idea being to give a lecture, public lecture, once a year. And it has sin</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ce now evolved. It's a separate </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nonprofit, but tied to WSU. We turned over all our assets </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">WSU</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> because Battelle </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">had lost interest in supporting </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">them. Which is understandable, I'm not faulting Battelle for this. They were very</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> generous when they started it. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And we promote education, give a couple scholarships out of the endowment, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">still try to have that lecture. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">That lecture was to honor some scientist</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o promote public understanding. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And we also are interested in history. And so, this should interest you most as an h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">istorian, the Parker Foundation </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">will be supporting the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> RASC c</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ollection, or maybe not dollar-wise in any large </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">amount, but that's one of their things. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And you should come to one of our meetings, Bob.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So is there any topic we haven't touched on yet in terms of either your Battelle transuranium registry, anythin</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">g </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">along those lines, that you would like to discuss? Or that you think would be important to discuss at this point?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I'</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ll just—yeah, I’</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d like to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> comment on a couple of things. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One of the reasons I wanted to come to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Battelle—or, it wasn’t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Battelle then, I wanted to come to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Hanford was, in doing research for my thesis I kept runnin</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">g across these </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">reports. They're very practical, down to earth, and just </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the kind of thing I like to do. [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But Hanford wasn't really well known. In fact, one of my </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">profs</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> said, you know, you'r</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e going to go out and get a job </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e day. He said, you ought to go</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> to Los Alamos or some other place</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, I don’t even remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. Never m</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">entioned Hanford. Which was not </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">extraordinary</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> because I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> had hardly heard of it myself. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">When I went to work for Livermore, we had a lot of plutonium there. And Hanf</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ord of course was the plutonium </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">production place. And you naturally pick up things. And they ran this wonderf</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ul life sciences symposium. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">that's when we came up. And that's </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">when I had my first experience. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And the guys from Hanford were just the kind of people that</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">down to earth, very nice that you could</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> talk to. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">actually applied for a job, it was like 1966, and I didn't know the ins and outs, but th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e guy I talked to had just been </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">demoted.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER] So, tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t didn't work out too well. But then a year or so later, tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t's when Harold Larson came up. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But I really</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the work that was done here was so different in a sense. The way it wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s done, it was more practically oriented. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Another thing that it intrigued me about this place was, they no</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> only did things differe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ntly, but in a lot of ways they were playing catch-</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">up. In fact, maybe you should turn this off, but I'll say it anywa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">y. After I'd been up here for a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">while I found that a lot of the workers were suffering from a terrible disease</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> known as the Hanford syndrome, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">which was c</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">haracterized by three symptoms. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The first one was there will always be a government to take care of us.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The second one was if i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t hadn't been discovered here at</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Hanford, it wasn't worth discovering. And that applied to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">all levels of things.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And the t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hird one was all change is </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">bad. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And I'm going to give you an example. It's kind of a fun example. I got a call one</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> day when I had been here a few </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">years and was managing the external dose group. And we bought all these po</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rtable instruments from a young </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">engineer who had been asked to obtain what were calle</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d, cart poppies. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">These were not portable inst</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ruments, so I didn't have any—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hey were portab</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">le in a sense. They were a huge </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">instrument in a cart. And the poppy referred to the fact that they would make po</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">pping noises when they measured </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">alpha particles. And this was I th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ink about 1968, or thereabouts. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And he called me up and he asked, do you have the most current plans for </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the cart poppies? Because we're </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">going to order some and the vendor wants the plans, obviously. And I said, oh, yeah. He said, oh good. Th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e latest </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ones I can find are like 1956 or thereabou</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ts. Maybe was earlier than that,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I don't</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> remember the exact year. And I </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">said, well you've </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">got them. And he was astounded. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The arguments were just unbelievable, but basically it was, they worked. We won't c</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">hange them. He finally ended </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">up ordering 30 of them for $30,000 plus a copy. $1 million. I could have purcha</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">sed for him, on the open market </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">commercially, a transistorized unit that di</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d everything the cart poppy did,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> better, and did a heck of a lot more als</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">for about $300 a copy. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But the mentality of a lot of the old timers was such that that was the way it was.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So was that one of the challenges that you found then?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">That was a big challenge for me</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ecause here I was tasked with upgrading the instrument pool</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. And how do you </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">get people to change? We've always done it this way. Little things, this instrumen</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t's been proven. But we did it. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">We did it. And that led to</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">after I left that job and others took it over, they built</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> on that. And now everything is </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">commerci</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">al. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Not that commercial is better than what you do yourself, particularly if you hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e a special need, but saved the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">government a lot of money. Save</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d the taxpayers a lot of money. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And so that mindset has been pretty much gone. But it was really, really stro</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ng here. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And I remember just one thing that I had in mind. I wanted to change the neutron </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">monitoring instruments. Neutron </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">monitors in those days were big heavy things. And what we used at Hanford</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> was a device that required two </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">sepa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">rate measurements you carried—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t had a handle with a big thing of poly</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ethylene and another instrument </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">package. And you had to take two measurements. It wasn't very go</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">od and it wasn't very accurate. The Swe</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">d</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s had developed an instrument we call a REM meter because i</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t actually measured the REM, or biological dose—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">dose rate. And the Navy was using them. And that's what </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I wanted to replace these with. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I got more static from my own staff. The guys won't use them, this, that and other thing. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">This was proven, we did </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">it here</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and it's wo</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nderful and so on and so forth. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But we put them in and now they only need one measurement. And granted, it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> big and heavy, but people loved </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">them</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> because you turn it on and you got a measurement. You didn't have </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">to interpret anything. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">So there was a lot of resistance to change. And over </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the years I've thought of that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">One has to be very careful. You can't come in, as some people have, well, this is</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> the way we did where I used to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">work. Well, that doesn't wash. You </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">have to really demonstrate it. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Actually, I think what I did was I bought two of these Navy type instruments. Sent</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> them o</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ut to the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">reas. Try </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">these guys and see if they work. And the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> loved them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">That's a great example</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, yeah</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. One of things obviously that happened was that the si</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">te at some point shifted from a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">focus on production to focus on clean up. Did that impact you in any ways</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">your work at all, or not?</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Not really because I was working at the registries and on other projects that didn't involve cleanup. Al</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">though, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Mount St. Helens</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">do you have a few minutes?</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Okay.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The Mount St. Helens</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> eruption was something else. It happened on a Sunday. Actually when it happened, I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">in the bathroom, I think. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">It was in the morning. And I got up late Sunday morning. I think I w</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">as brushing my teeth </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">actually</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> when I heard this tremendous bang. And I thought, jeez, my wife mus</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">t have dropped something in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">kitchen. So I yelled out to her and she</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> said, oh, it was a sonic boom. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">We</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> had</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> neighborhood event, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">nd everybody was—a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> pot</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">luck. And a couple hours later we were walkin</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">g to the neighborhood event, it </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">was getting dark.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> There was stuff falling out</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">if you want some ash, I can giv</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e you some ash. But it's very, very interesting. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And this will show you my relationship to Harold Larson too. We learned what h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">appened. Well some Battelle </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">scientist talked to a newspaper, I think the Washington Post it may have been, but </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">he talked to a newspaper in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">East. And he said that Mount St. Helens had released more radioactivity than th</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Just natural radioa</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ctivity, which was not correct. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Incidentally that morning, there's a </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">lot of dust and so on, and fall</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">out. A lot of interes</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ting things about that that you </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">never hear. The fallout, the lighter piece</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s carried further, but the fall</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">out at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Yakima airport was very thick and </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">heavy. They had to clear the runway</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">s—or, runway I guess</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">. And one of the ideas proposed was t</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">o use electromagnet because the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">fallout contained so much iron that you could act</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ually pick it up with a magnet. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">There were a lot of other things. There was also a guy who the following day got</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> on the horn, he was driving to </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">work, and he had picked up some ash. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And when he got out to the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">reas wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ere he worked, I guess he stuck </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">on a counter and came up with the idea that was loaded with radium. Just loaded</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> with radium. He didn't measure </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the radium directly, h</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e measured the daughter products and back calculated. And that doesn't give you the right</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">answer.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> He called on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> on</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e of</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> the radio stations to tell all of </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">the </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">people coming to work to roll up the windows in their cars.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> I mean this is the kind of--e</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ven</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">scientists screw up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">In any event, that and the statement of that other scientist about more radioactivity led to a lot of concern. And the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">President the United States was coming to Portland, I think, to give a campaign speech. And that was Jimmy</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Carter</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> by the way. Harold Larson came into my office and said, I want you call DOE right away. Air Force One has</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">some questions.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Now that's pretty big because I'm just a little town guy. I mean, really. And I told them that there</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">were errors made in the calculation. And that there was not a huge amount of radioactivity.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">We had actually pulled some of our environmental monitoring samples and they just showed the normal amount.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">And the soil was exactly the same as the soil around here. The concentration of radium as was in the Mount Saint</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">Helens eruption. So these people panicked. But anyway, I got to get my oar in. And there's my claim to fame that's</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">never been documented except on this tape, if you keep it in.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUTHER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">All right, well, that's probably a good place to end.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">, I'm sorry. You get me wound up.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">No, that's a great story.</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">There's a lot more that. Let me just quick</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ly give you another piece of it. </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">The guy that had made this pronouncement of all this radioactivity compounded the thing by saying that it was all</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">due to radon. From the decay of radium, radon gas that had built up and created a lot of pressure and caused the</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">explosion. That's just an impossible or very extremely unlikely scenario.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">We had given him our monitoring data and other things. And he wrote </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">a paper for </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">S</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">cience</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> with about 40 authors</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">and did not include any of us using all of our data. Scientists are sometimes not the most ethical and honorable</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">people in the world either, much as I love them. But you know, think of lawyers. Occasionally the barrel has a</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">good apple in it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">But anyway, we had to do something. And you'r</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">e going to interview Joe </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span class="SpellingError SCX237597792">Soldat</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Joe and I and Dale Denham—</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">think you're going to interview Dale also and one other person. Anyway, </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">we wrote a little note for </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">S</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">cience</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">calculating out the doses, which defused what they had done. So you wouldn't misinterpret what they had done.</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> Get me off on ethics in</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">science sometime</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"> and it's just—</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX237597792"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX237597792">
<p class="Paragraph SCX237597792"><span class="TextRun SCX237597792"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kathren</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">All rig</span><span class="TextRun SCX237597792">ht. I've taken all of your time.</span></p>
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Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:04:50
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
250kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
200 Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1963-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1965-1999
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Selby, Jack
Larson, Harold
Seaborg, Glenn
Gough, Jerry
Benefiel, Gary
Parker, Herb
Bair, Bill
Soldat, Joe
Denham, Dale
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ronald Kathren
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Ronald Kathren conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date Modified
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2016-06-9: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/7/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland(Wash.)
Battelle(Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
200 Area
Atlantic Richfield Co.
Battelle (Wash.)
General Electric
Richland (Wash.)
-
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3142adf019d9de516b8f2a4add7fa436
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F616a067d52fab2686c04cbe6e6a6912b.mp4
240981a59517bb87ea7cccdfd57c3fca
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michell, CJ
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Michell_CJ</strong></p>
<p>Whenever you're ready.</p>
<p>Whenever we're ready, OK. All right, I guess we're good to go.</p>
<p>OK.</p>
<p>All right.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: All right, let's start by having you say your name, and spell it for us.</p>
<p>CJ Mitchell: All right. CJ Mitchell. And actually there's a Junior on the end, and that's CJ, no periods. It's initials only. M-I-T-CH-E-L-L, and then of course Junior, J-R.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right, thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is October 30<sup>th</sup> of 2013.</p>
<p>Mitchell: It's my mom's birthday.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is it really?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Hey.</p>
<p>Mitchell: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So CJ, if we could start by just having you talk about when you first came to Hanford and what brought you here.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well, I came October 3, 1947. And I was 16 years old at the time. And in the early years, in 1943, my relatives, primarily my uncles and also my father-in-law, and others from my community down in Northeast Texas came to work on the Manhattan Project. And, of course, then I came here in '47, and that's the start of the Cold War. Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you know how your relatives heard about Hanford?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yes, and I was a young kid I guess at that time, but anyway I remember people coming to the community and talking about, and trying to identify people to come out here to Hanford. And actually they gave them a number. And when they got to Pasco, they matched up that number. And then when they got there, they found out it was another forty miles out to Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Was that DuPont, then, that people from--</p>
<p>Mitchell: I would think it was DuPont doing that time. I'm not sure, because I was young, I don't remember exactly what it was, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. And so you arrived here, as you said, in 1947 as a 16-year-old. What were your first sort of impressions of the place?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well actually it was really interesting, because when I first came--and I got here at nighttime, which most people will tell you that--but anyway, came into Pasco, and there was five of us. I had two first cousins, myself, and then two other people from my community. And we didn't actually come out here the first day. We went to East Pasco, because my relatives live there. And we slept in a little tent about maybe five--it wasn't even five feet. One uncle had a trailer on one side, the other one had a trailer on the other side with a little--I would say it's a little porch in between. And of course our tent was just out at maybe 20 feet away, out in the yard. That's where we slept at night. We visited during the day, and then crawled in there at night and slept.</p>
<p>Bauman: How long did you sleep there?</p>
<p>Mitchell: We were there for about, actually about three months. Because when I first came, I got a job working right up over the hill here, up on the trailer park, right up on North Richland right here, on the east side of George Washington Way. But they didn't have the barracks ready at that time. So we would catch a bus in the morning and ride out here until they got the barracks ready. And my first job was working in the--for every trailer they had a washhouse. There was no indoor plumbing. So all the homes, they had a washhouse, where they did the laundry and where they went to the bathroom. And so that was my job, helping complete those.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay. So you lived in East Pasco--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Just for a couple of months, and then we were able to move into the barracks when they got the barracks finished. And that experience was that—well, it was only $1.40 a week to live there. And that included daily maid service and clean linen once a week. And so that was pretty good. At the mess hall, for lunches--when we'd go to work, for our lunch we could get a lunch box for $0.50. And that included a couple sandwiches, maybe an orange, an apple. Maybe a slice of pie or something. Yeah. Interesting stuff.</p>
<p>Bauman: What sort of were the working hours? What sort of hours--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well, actually, we worked eight to ten hours a day and then a half day on Saturday. And so I think I was making like $1.30 an hour. And I think, like $65.00 a week was big money. Because back in East Texas I could make like $25.00 or $30.00 a week. And I was working in a sawmill. A little portable sawmill. Yeah. Where they made cross ties. Interesting work.</p>
<p>Bauman: Now what was the town in East Texas that you--</p>
<p>Mitchell: It was a little place called Kildare. K-I-L-D-A-R-E. All it was there, it was maybe like four little businesses and a train station, and just a crossroad. Dirt roads, no pavements. No. Everybody walked.</p>
<p>Bauman: So when you came in '47, what was the racial situation here, were things segregated?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well, they had discrimination. You couldn't eat there, and the bus station in Pasco. And everybody lived on the east side, and I think there was a few people lived there maybe just west of the underpath and up on 1<sup>st</sup> or 2<sup>nd</sup> Street right in there. Course I was, you know I didn't get involved because I was working. But that was what the situation was, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Did that surprise you at all, or—the sort of segregation?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Not coming from East Texas. Because I grew up in a segregated world. So that wasn't a surprise to me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was the workplace segregated also, when you moved up to live here as well?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well, yeah, actually the crews were segregated. The labor, and mostly general labor, that's what I knew about, was general labor. But I think me being a young guy, they put me over with the plumbers. And what I was actually doing, when they put the joints together, they did sorting in those days, and you had to--they called it bell holes, where you'd have room to work around those, and put those together. That was my job, to dig those bell holes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay. And so how long did you do that work?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well, I did that work about three months. Because what happened--I came in October, and really, I got homesick. And if you've never been homesick, you don't know what I'm talking about. It's really--and then at the end of I think in January, I went back home. I went back to Texas for--I'd been here about three months and man, I was so homesick I went back. And then I came back in the spring of 1948. Right about the time they had the big flood. And then, after that, when I came back then, and also lived in the barracks at that time, but I helped build the ranch houses there in Richland. Yeah, built those ranch houses there. And I also worked on the 100-H reactor. Helping build the 100-H reactor at that time.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what brought you back in '48? Was it the opportunity for work?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Just the work. Knowing the work and the pay. It's just that, well, I had to get over the homesickness. I went back to the East Coast, see. Came back because I knew the work was here, and that's what I did. And then I stayed until after the big cold winter in 1949 and '50. And then in that maybe like February or March, somewhere in there, it was three of us. We pulled a single wide trailer from North Richland to San Francisco, because one of the guys had a sister living there. And then as we were going to California, pulling this trailer, we got down around Williams, California, in Northern California there, and somebody wanted to know if we wanted to stop and pick cherry blossoms. I never thought, you know—we'd never heard of a job picking cherry blossoms. And so then we didn't pick cherry blossoms. We went on into San Francisco, and we didn't get any work there right away. And one of men and myself--we went back to Texas. And then the other gentleman, he went into the military. And then that's when I got back there, in 1950. That's when my wife--my wife was my high school sweetheart. I married her, and we went to Chicago for the next 15 months. And then I came back to the Tri-Cities in 1951. And then I worked on McNary Dam. Moved out to Hermiston, Oregon and worked in construction there, and then in the spring of 1952, I came back to Pasco, worked on the blue bridge, helped that. And the construction on the irrigation canal, irrigation project coming down through the basin. That was my job when I came back in 1951. And then, after that, then I worked on, built the 100 Ks. The 100-K East and West. I worked on that, and then I worked in helping build the PUREX facility in 200-East Area. And then in the spring of 1955, I went to work for General Electric. That was in the fuel preps department in the 300 Area.</p>
<p>Bauman: 1955 was it?</p>
<p>Mitchell: 1955. And that's when I was working there, and that's when I got out of construction. And then when I got into the fuel preps area, well, they had locker rooms and showers and lunch rooms. And the work there, we had a break. I never heard of a break before. [LAUGHTER] So my job on the production line was to take two fuel elements, and put them in a basket. And they would go down in some aluminum Al-Si. And when they come out, another person would take those two and take them to what we call canning and get them canned. Take them over to get canned and then take them to the quench tanks cooling area. And I did that. Now, in the locker rooms there was a bulletin board, and on this bulletin board, that's where all the job postings were. And those were gotten by seniority. And every Monday morning was when you selected. And I noticed, nobody ever turned those jobs down. So I said, there's got to be something out there better than what I'm doing over here. And then I started thinking, well, you better get something between your ears. I'd go to college in those days. And by that time I had a wife and three children. That's when I decided, well, I better get going. So I'm embarked upon a night school program and I went to night school for 14 years. I didn't know if I'd ever get a degree or not. But I played basketball, just pick-up basketball, and one of the guys that was an engineer out there, he played some basketball. And he said one of things you can always have, math and chemistry. So I didn't know if I'd get a degree or not, so I studied math and chemistry. And through that, I was able to work my way out of that into—out as a technician, and then later on in the human resources. And I just started that program and I stayed with it. 14 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: So I want to go back, a little bit, to when you were talking about working fuels prep.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Sure.</p>
<p>Bauman: Did you have to wear special equipment to do the job you were doing?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah you had to have coveralls. You had to have special coveralls, to wear that, and shoe covers. You had to wear those, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: That was to protect you from anything splashing?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Protect you, yeah, protection. And you had to wear of course safety goggles, you had to wear those.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right, right. And you said that was with GE.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, that was General Electric.</p>
<p>Bauman: General Electric.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long did you work that?</p>
<p>Mitchell: I worked General Electric until 1964. Not that particular job, but what I did as a result of going to school, I did several jobs there. And one of the jobs that I had there was I worked as a person that drove a forklift—could unload fuel elements and help the guys put them on the truck to take to the reactors once they had gotten what we called canned. And also we had a couple little warehouses where we stored things. And we would have certain fuel elements in there, just bare uranium elements there. During that time they started what they called the big extrusion press for the fuel elements to go to the N Reactor, when they were going to build the N Reactor. So actually I hauled the first fuel elements, they were billets, to be put through an extrusion press for the N Reactor. And they did that in the 306 Building. Interesting work. And I had gone to probably 15 interviews before I even got a job, and on my 16th interview I came in on a swing shift and my boss says they would like to interview you over in the 327 Building. And of course out of courtesy, I went there. I didn't expect to get anything because that was pretty disappointing, that many times and nothing. And so once I got over there and talked to the gentleman over there and I got back to my workstation, about an hour later he came back and he said, well, you're going to have that job over there. And when I went over—the job I was working in was a bargaining unit job, a union job. And they had like three classifications. They had a C, a B, and an A. One-two-one was the ratio. And when they hired, you moved up. If they laid off, you moved down. So I was a C operator. I was caught in the sling here. So when I got the chance to go over to the 327 Building, I had to give up my seniority there. And I took a $17.00 a week pay cut, to take that job and take a chance on it. And they could've laid me off the next day. But I took that job, and really I've never looked back since. Turned out to be a great move for me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. And so how much longer did you work at Hanford, then? How long did you work there?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well, I worked there at—in fact, when I got over into the radio metallurgical part where they do an examination on radioactive fuels, studying the whole why they had ruptured in the reactors and dissolving samples for research, things like that. And then I worked for a gentleman named Mike McCormack, who was really a legislator in this area. And he was a chemical engineer by profession. And he had designed some of the casts that they transported elements in. They had a situation where they wanted to bring in a swing shift. And they talked about that, in the meeting he says, if any of you folks are going to school or want to go to school then we don't have to go identify other people that has to come and go in shift. My hand went up. It was the only hand went up. And then the next week they decided they weren't going to have that shift. But one since my hand went up, they set up a special shift for me to go to school. That gave me a chance to make some extra time at Columbia Basin College. And I worked a swing shift, and then Mike McCormack being a chemist--I would come in early on swing shift and he would teach me, he taught chemistry with me during that time. Actually one the best jobs I've ever had was in that group, even though moving up to human resources and all that was great. But just the whole environment there was one of my special places in my career. And then when I got into human resources, that was when the civil rights movement started. Also, just prior to that, there was a job in the 325 Building doing some research. We were studying what happened out in space capsules, there were certain parts of the capsule that would freeze up. And so they developed these uranium oxide pellets to place in there so it would take care of that situation. And I was able to go over into the 325 and work one-on-one with the guy that was doing that research. So I helped do that. And the way I got that job, I had more math and chemistry than anybody in the lab that didn't have a degree at that time. And so I got selected for that. And then just by my going to school and my other community work, when the civil rights movement started, I got an opportunity to go into human resources. And then I ended up getting a degree in business. So I'm half technical, half business. So it turned out a great career for me.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did you work in human resources, then?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Oh, 20, 30—the last 28 years I was there, in human resource. Did a lot of hiring of those science and engineers. Orientation of new staff or putting in 401(k) programs. Did a lot of things.</p>
<p>Bauman: And which contractor contracted?</p>
<p>Mitchell: That was General Electric until Battelle came in, 1965. Battelle came in, I worked for them.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, okay. I want to go back a little bit, first to when you initially came back in '47 as a 16-year-old, and you said you were living in a tent. What was that like? What was East Pasco like at the time?</p>
<p>Mitchell: There was no indoor plumbing over there. The streets were all dirt. Yeah it was pretty--it wasn't very good. It was kind of like back in East Texas. Because we just had dirt roads, we had no pavements or anything then. Did a lot of walking. And so yeah, it was like that there. Looking back.</p>
<p>Bauman: And then you moved to the dorms, right?</p>
<p>Mitchell: And then we moved out here to the dorms. And that was an experience. Because I'm 16 years old, and these guys—I never heard swearing and things like I had heard in that. I know my head was going like this all the time. Because I'm telling you, these guys, they were something else. And on Sundays, I would try to get some kind of a ride back into East Pasco where my uncle and his wife lived, and then that would get me away from that. And then there was also some other people that we knew each other from there and so we would go there too. So I'd ride over with them and come back.</p>
<p>Bauman: And then you mentioned you had gone back to East Texas and you and your wife got married. And then you went to Chicago.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Chicago for a couple of summers.</p>
<p>Bauman: Now, why'd you go to Chicago?</p>
<p>Mitchell: I had a brother had lived there. He'd been military and he lived there in Chicago. And I had stopped there during the time when I first came to Washington. And the way I got there, I knew where he was. And when we left home, I don't know, I did some things that maybe were maybe kind of silly when I was growing up. But in Texarkana, we were all getting ready to come to Washington. And I got off the train and I went--they used to have these phone booths where you could go in to have your photo taken. And so when I got back on the train, and on my way to come through Saint Louis, come into Saint Louis and that way you came around Saint Louis, Chicago Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and then around the northern part here. Well, I lost my billfold or something in there. And so my one uncle gave me money and I got off the train in Chicago, and my ticket, and I went and stayed with my brother. And stayed with him for about a month. And then I went back to Texas. I worked at a punch board factory. You know, you made punchboards. In the old bars, used to have where you'd go and punch a board, and punch on punchboards. Well, they were making punchboards, down on Michigan Avenue. Well, I got enough money to get back to Texas and maybe work a few more weeks and get some more money to come back. And so I got off the train in Chicago because I lost my billfold. And then I worked there for three or four weeks. Got enough to get back home and then came back again. And then in the summer of '48 when I was coming back to start working on the ranch house in Billings, Montana. I got off the train to get a newspaper. I looked up and the train's gone, leaving. So I ran the train down, caught the train. So just about the time I'm getting on the train I hear a guy yell, well if you can't make it, you can go home with me. I caught the back of the train. Worked my way up through all the cars. And then finally the guys on the train said, God, what's wrong with this kid, I'm sure they said that's the craziest kid I've ever seen. But anyway, because you know, my jacket was there, my coat was there with my ticket and everything. But I caught up. [LAUGHTER] But then of course I learned. But that's what happened. And then I came back, yeah. But then going to Chicago was--I played baseball. We didn't have baseball in school, but I played with the men teams back in Texas. And I loved baseball. And when we got married and went to Chicago, well then I knew there was always jobs in Chicago. Whether you liked the job or not, there's jobs there. So we went there. And we stayed there, and our oldest son was born there. And I would go out to Northwestern University out at Evanston, and try out for baseball. I was pretty good at it. I could hit and I could run. My arm, I couldn't throw very well. But I could hit and I could run. But anyway, I just thought well, maybe—you know, 19 years old, you still have it in you. And then I realized, after being there for a while and going to a lot of the games--and I saw the big name players at Comiskey Park and Wrigley Field. And they had double headers in those days. And you could see all these players. And I got to see Jackie Robinson, and Don Newcombe, and Bob Feller, and Joe DiMaggio, and Ted Williams. I got to see all these big name players which I was fascinated by. And of course then I was working for a smelters, and I had a fairly good job. But then I got to thinking, well I know where there's fresh air, and I know where the work is good. And so we came back. And she went home and stayed with her father down in East Texas for maybe like a couple of months while I got situated here, and then she came here. And then we've been here ever since. Great experience.</p>
<p>Bauman: And when you came back then, where did you live?</p>
<p>Mitchell: When I came back here, that's when I came back and I lived in East Pasco. But I worked on McNary Dam, I moved out to Hermiston where I could be six miles away. Just go down and come back. I always believed in living close to work, and so that's what I did. And then in the spring of '52, that's when I came back. Worked on the blue bridge, helped build that. Irrigation canals out here, and then--</p>
<p>Bauman: And did you move back to the area here, through then?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, I moved back to Pasco. And I lived in Pasco then until 1955. Because when I went to work for General Electric in 1955, then you could get housing in Richland. Your name would go on a list and you could get housing. And that's when it really, really took off for me. Really took off for me.</p>
<p>Bauman: And was housing readily available then? I mean, as an African American? Was that difficult?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well if you could get GE out—you couldn't buy a house. I couldn't buy a house in Richland because I was black, you know, from real estate people. And that was as late as 1965. But back then it was the government homes, and if you worked you could get a home. And so it didn't matter. It wasn't up to them, then. It was up to General Electric then. And I rode the bus back and forth to work, $0.10 a day round trip. $0.05 a day. I could walk up to the bus stop, catch a bus, and go to work. And then in the outer area, the construction in outer area, they paid you isolation pay. They paid you $4.00 a day to go out there doing construction all the way out there. 300 Area, you didn't get anything, but way out there, and then the crafts got more. Interesting. Those days are gone forever though.</p>
<p>Bauman: So when you did go to buy a home then in Richland, did you experience some difficulty?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Oh yeah. It was tough. The guy, he just flat told me, said because you're black, we won't sell you a house. I can't take a chance on my investment. And so then of course, at that time, there was like the NAACP and other groups wanting to come in and get involved and I said no, I'll take care of it myself. I said well, my kids live here, my kids got to walk down these streets. I'll take care of it myself. And I just let it go. And then there was a gentleman by the name of Everdy Green had a real estate company. He called me up and he says well, he said I hear you're having problems getting a house, and I'll sell you anything you want. And I said yeah, I know you will, because your prices eliminate me. I said the level of your homes, what they cost, I said I'm just making a weekly salary. I can't afford one of your homes. And the interesting thing about that--and I never knew I'd be in real estate. And once I got into real estate I ended up selling Everdy Green's home. Yeah. Ended up selling the home that he owned. And he was the guy, but--it's interesting. And then, where I live now--I just live on Spring down here, right down the street here--first night I was there I picked up the phone, phone rings, some guy said, this is the Ku Klux Klan he said, and you're next. That was what I got on the phone. And so I just called and reported it. But nothing ever happened after that. But that's what happened to me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. Were there other incidents where people opposed you sort of moving in, or--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well no, but I heard later on from Ron Kathren, when Ron Kathren bought his house. The one who lives on the street. It was kind of interesting. But the place where I was turned down was in Beverly Heights. Beverly Heights is where Fred Meyer is, and up on the hill, that's the area. Well later on, even years later, I went up and there's a home for sale by owner. Up there, a house. And then I knocked on the door, and when he saw I was black, he just slammed the door. He says, go over there, there's some houses over there. Point prefab area. But you know, you run into that. And then I had one person that worked with me in the laboratory. He says, I don't have to worry about that. He said I don't have to worry about this. Said I'm white, said I don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. It's just been interesting, it's just been an interesting experience, a real interesting experience. But what it is, I just let it roll off and keep moving. That's how you have to do it. Can't change things.</p>
<p>Bauman: A little bit earlier you mentioned civil rights movement. Were there organizations, NAACP and other organizations, here in the Tri-Cities area?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, there was NAACP, and there was one guy by the name of McGee. And sometime he would be kind of like a one-man walking picket. He was a real fighter, and everything like that. But I wasn't as involved as a lot of people, because I was working all the time. But I knew things was going on, and I did my share. Where I've lived I've always been involved in community. I was on a planning commission, and things like that. All that.</p>
<p>Bauman: In Richland?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And about when was that?</p>
<p>Mitchell: About 1969, '70. Back in those days.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what did you think of that experience?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, it was an interesting experience. It really was. But you know, I made the motions on a planning commission to put the infrastructure into Meadow Springs area of South Richland. And I went to work the next day and out in the 300 Area was a 3760 Building which they just tore down recently, in the last few months. Was called a technical library, up in the upper area. I walked in one morning, there was a guy named Guthrie, G-U-H-T-R-I-E, named Guthrie. I don't know what his first name now was, but anyway, he was kind of a loud guy in the community. But anyway, he cornered me and he said, 'bout all the what it was going to be, paying the taxes, what it was going to cost and all that. And I said, well I don't know who you are, but my philosophy is that if you're going to have a good community, you've got to make it a good community. And it's going to be no better than the people that live in it. And that's the way I left it. And then he got on the city council for a while, and he was kind of a different guy. But pretty soon he just kind of faded away. I don't know where he is now. He was the same way--because when I was in the lab, I was in charge of employee benefits. Had some responsibilities there. And he was a little different there too, because he just wanted you to give him the money and he would buy his own ticket to get his own benefits. He wasn't interested in regular benefits like everyone else. But you get some of that. Learned a lot.</p>
<p>Bauman: So I know at some point you got into officiating, doing sports officiating.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, in 1964. Well, a little earlier than that they wanted me to get into officiating but I was going to night school; I was trying to get finished up. And there was a gentleman they said, well they had no African American people in officiating spots, you know, here. And the guy who came to me was working as a garbage pickup person in Richland. The garbage pickup person, his name was Johnny Singleton. And there was a guy in Pasco by the name of, I believe it was Jim Pruitt. Big, tall, about 6'6" African American guy. And Singleton, by him being on the garbage truck crews, like they'd pick up garbage. And they dumped it by hand then, instead of the sophisticated stuff they got now. But anyway, talked to him about somebody getting into sports. Refereeing sports. And of course my kid was already playing little league here at that time. And so he thought about me and Pruitt. And so the three of us, we started out. And of course when I got in it, because I'd been around baseball, my curve just went up. It just went like that. And I was in the Pac-8 in two-and-a-half years. I didn't even know I was that good. In the first year I worked, they picked me for the little league playoffs, but they said we don't let first year people work in that. But there was never a year when I officiated sports that I wasn't picked for some playoffs like that. And then all that got me into American Legion, then into--actually I worked pro ball before I went to that two-and-a-half years, year and a half. I had been down to Kennewick working one day, one morning, and I came home about 4:00 and the phone rang and it was a guy from the Tri-City Braves at that time. Ever hear of the Pro Ball Club?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yep.</p>
<p>Mitchell: He says get out here at 6:30, you got double header. So I go out there and I work double header. So the guy I was sitting in the room with, his name was Biddick. His name was B-I-D-D-I-C-K. I'll never forget his last name. And he was telling me about how to do it, and he said well, he says if the catcher has to reach out a little bit, he says just go ahead and call that a ball. He said, because the fans will get on you. I said well, listen I don't know who you are, I said, but what I’ve been taught is if the ball hit the strike zone any place, whenever it hits the strike zone, it's a strike. I don't care where it goes beyond that. And I said, and that's what I'll do, they may not have me back. And there was a guy by the name of Ted Sizemore. Ted Sizemore, University of Michigan. He was a catcher. He ended up as a second baseman for the Dodgers. But he was a catcher at that time. And I worked that game, and in the Tri-City Herald the next morning, Ted Sizemore says the best balls and strikes game they had ever had called, since he had been there. And then, and I know I'm jumping way ahead, but way back in 2000, when I was inducted into the NCAA Hall of Fame in Chicago, when I got up to talk and I was telling them about, I said my first game was behind a guy by the name of Ted Sizemore. And his wife happened to be in the audience.</p>
<p>Bauman: Really? Wow.</p>
<p>Mitchell: His wife was in the audience. And I didn't know it but his wife was in the audience. And that was pretty interesting.</p>
<p>Bauman: That’s pretty amazing.</p>
<p>Mitchell: But then, well it just turned to gold. I could run. I could run, I just enjoyed it. And I don't know why, later in years we call it you've got to be in the place when lightning strikes, whatever it is. You've got to be when lightning strikes, there's your opportunity. But I was working, taking a half day's vacation to work a game with Columbia Basin College. That was my second year. And the guys from the Pac-8 in those days was there watching some players. And after the game was over, one of the guys came over to the car and he says you ever thought about coming to work in the Pac-8? And I says, well I'd love to someday. He said, well what I did, he said, we watched you work the bases. Your focus never left what you were doing. We watched you work the plate. Your focus was always there. And he says, well you're really better than some of the guys we have up there. And I said, well I'd be happy to try it. What I know about it, I never been there before. But anyway, that's how I got there.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how many years did you do--</p>
<p>Mitchell: I did it for 30, I did it for 36 years in the whole Pac-8 team. And then I evaluated umpires until they went to the Pac-12. I would go from here. I wouldn't go evaluate officiants—I wouldn't travel. But I would just go to WSU, my wife and I, until they went to Pac-12. Then I thought well, it's time for somebody else to do it. And I did a lot, overall I got 21 World Series under my belt. And two Olympic. I worked Olympics in '84 and '88. And I worked the first games, when they were demonstration sports for the Olympics. I worked ball and strikes on the first game ever in [INAUDIBLE] Colorado in '78. It was turning to gold, still getting it. I was at SeaTac this past weekend for hall of fame.</p>
<p>Bauman: I saw that, the legion, yeah.</p>
<p>Mitchell: I've always been involved. And right now, the one guy that was in the Pac-10 with me, there was nobody taking care like Columbia Basin College doing that. So we incorporated it. We own that, and now run it administratively. We just own that association. I'll take care of that. But Hanford's been good. The Tri-Cities has been--I call it virgin territory. And for me, traveling around—when I did get into human resources, well I would travel to different schools for science and engineers. And I got into that just by, the guy was going to go WSU and he says they had three schedules for interviews, and they only had two. And he says, you know how to talk about the lab, come on. So I go to WSU, and they've got three schedules. Two starts at 8:30, one start at 9. Well my training was sitting in with one of the other interviewers for 30 minutes—that was my training. Then you're on your own. And of course, then I end up doing all that. And then when I was out going to different place like Purdue, Michigan, Wisconsin, Donald, Stanford, and all those places. I always picked up a local newspaper, would start to look at what the economy was kind of like. And for the last 60 years, the Tri-City has been as good as any and better than most. I had opportunities to leave, but I wouldn't leave. Good place to raise families. The schools were good. And my wife was very active in--she stayed on top of things within the school boards, and the city council, and all that stuff. She was a real tiger there. But she always did her homework. And so we just always been involved. And I always encouraged other people to get involved, but it's hard sometimes to get them to do anything. But I always taught my kids to try things. Because you can always come back to nothing. And Art Linkletter, I heard him years ago say, if you're ever going to get any place, do anything, you got to take some chances. Got to stick your neck out. I never forgot that.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was going to ask you, so you worked construction--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Sure.</p>
<p>Bauman: --and then fuels prep, and then eventually human resources.</p>
<p>Mitchell: You bet.</p>
<p>Bauman: Of those three sorts of different kinds of jobs you had in Hanford, was there one that was sort of more challenging than the others, and maybe one that was more rewarding?</p>
<p>Mitchell: They all were reward--I'll tell you, moving on to the research lab where they did examinations of the fuels and radiometallurgy, where they studied things, like what happened and why they failed and all that—that was tremendous. But the one thing that got me out to get me the exposure was human resources. And what happened there is, I went in one day and I had been doing what are called employee benefits or whatever. Administration and all that stuff. And I went and asked my manager for the job. And he said, you think you can handle that job? I said yeah, I've been doing it all the time. I said yeah, so he said okay, so he gave me a chance at it. And of course the people that was involved around it that I worked with, I didn't get any help there. But there happened to be a guy by the name of Bob Steiken, he was working in payroll—he was in payroll at a different building. And he was the guy that coached Little League baseball, and all the kids playing sports. And had a relationship with him and everything, and I'd get some information from him. I'd consult with him once in a while. And then also there was a guy by the name of Dick Dibble. And he was an attorney, and he had been a professor over on the coast. And he was an expert in group dynamics. And when they had the civil rights movement, they wanted—you would go and talk about the civil rights things and things that happen. And during that time, I would talk about my experiences. I would talk with groups about my experience and things like that. And then he was the guy they wanted, come on, and then I'd go and talk things like that. And he says, you know how to talk about this. Come on, we want to hear about your experience and all that stuff, like, talk about that. And then he taught me group dynamics. How to handle groups. For example, if when there's good information going, don't shut it off. If it wanes, redirect it. You know, he taught me group dynamics. And I watched and I learned. And I always pick people's brains. I sit and I'll listen all the time. I'd sit and I'd listen to staff meetings, whatever meeting. And then when they got ready to put in the 401(k) program--actually, I was doing employee benefits at that time. And then we'd go back to Columbus, and we got to go back to Columbus headquarters and learn about things, and we'd present and all these things. And then, the guy that was in payroll, and then we had employee benefits, and then there was industrial relations--that was all part of human resources. Well the guys in employment over there, they were in charge of us going round to the different groups in the lab and explaining these benefits, when they were going to sign up for their 401(k)s. And the guy that was in charge there was kind of a different kind of guy. He never helped me at all, he never helped me do anything. And they brought in another lady to help us out, and she was just like high school, and they taught her everything. But they never taught me anything. So now, when we're getting ready to go, we doing these seminars and these presentations and everything, well, he would do all the presentations and that. So I told my wife, I said, I know what he's going to do is later on, he's going to put me on the spot. I knew it was coming. And so what happened was, was that we went to the 200 Areas, and he made the presentation, oh, the first about 11:00, and then over the noon hour. And then we go to 200 West. He doesn't say anything to me about it. Get out group together, and he explained all that, and then he said CJ's going to do this one. I did it. I was ready. When I got done, there was two questions. Two questions, all. And on the way back, and we were about 200 Area, right where they built the Vit plant now, she looks over and she says, gosh CJ. She said, golly, you did good. And she said, there was only two questions. I didn't say anything. I just rode in back. But I knew he was going to put me on the spot. But I was ready. But I was ready. And so I always got my homework done. And that's why standing out there today, I was out there ten minutes before you. I was standing out waiting.</p>
<p>Bauman: I know. I was going to ask you, I'm a little worried your mic is going to get caught there. If you could put your arm on the other side there, yeah, put your arm above the cord. There we go. As long as it doesn't--</p>
<p>Mitchell: It's been a great, it's been a great, great, great thing. And another thing is, is that when my oldest son--when my son now that's a judge, when he got out of Washington State and he was going to law school, and he was going to pass the bar and all that. One of the guys in my office there, one of the payroll guys there, was talking about how tough it was to pass the bar and all that. And we had a guy at Battelle in contracts that never did pass the bar. And he was in contracts, and what he was telling me really, oh, what he was telling me really, he's probably never going to pass the bar and all that kind of stuff, I didn't even worry about that. And then when our oldest son went to the Air Force Academy. And he went to Air Force Academy. But my wife was on top of everything, all the time. And one of the girls that--the girl, Anne Roseberry, down at the library, you know who she is?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, sure.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well she was a classmate of my oldest son. And her dad was a liaison for the Air Force Academy. And he asked her after school one afternoon, who are some of the young boys down there who would be worthy of maybe recommended for the Academy? And Duke was one of those guys. And he did. And then Greg, my second son, he went to Naval Academy. He went to Naval Academy prep school, but he didn't like it back there and he came back. He came back, went to CBC for a couple of weeks, and came home one day and threw his books away and told his mother, he said I'm not going back. He left, and he was gone for about three weeks, and he called up one day and she say, where are you? And he said I'm at the University of Puget Sound. He'd gone over, walked down, got him a scholarship, and she said, what made you go there? And he said I looked at their schedule and I saw they were going to Hawai’i next year. So one of his friends, Cary Randall, from Richland was over there too, so he had a chance to go there. And then my third son who's a fireman in Seattle, he went to Washington State University, when he could play. He could play baseball, or football, or basketball. But that was one kid that was anti-everything. He was going tell them how to run the program when he got over there, so they just told him to get lost. [LAUGHTER] They just told him to get lost. But he's doing well in Seattle, doing well. But anyway. And then my daughter, who's a sweetheart. And then Cameron, the one that was high school--Cameron, the judge, was a high school All-American in football and baseball. He was a first team All-American in football. And he still doesn't say much. He never did. Never did say much. But one thing I learned from kids is that we create all of our--most of our problems. For example, my uncle that lived here, the first one up in Pasco there. We went over one afternoon, and we were right about Road 68. Where Road 68 is now, coming home. And Richland and Pasco was playing one of these big rival games. And they wanted to buy hamburgers on the way home. And I said we're not going to buy hamburgers, we don't have any money. All you guys want to do is eat, we don't have any money to buy hamburgers. Well I get home, and I'm probably there ten minutes. And I'm walking through the house. You guys got to get ready, we got a ball game, if you don't go, we’ll leave you here. So he went to his mother, he says, I don't understand. He says, dad says we don't have money to buy hamburgers. He said but we're going to a basketball game. He said it takes money, he'll buy us anything we want once we get there. So if he'd never said that, I'd have never heard that. But it just tells you to be careful what you say. You create a lot of your own problems. I learned that. I observed that and paid attention to that. And also, he was always on the honor roll, and I told my wife, I says, God, he's always on the honor roll. I don't see him studying, how is he doing this? I'm wondering if he's cheating. So she told him about it, she said he says no, no, I study when I go to bed at night. He said when I go to my room at night, he said, I study. And he was the same way, he was same way all the way through. And he was an academic Pac-10 guy. And well when he got out of school, Buffalo wanted him to come back and run back [INAUDIBLE]. So he wouldn't. He said, I'm not that big, so he went to law school. And he was the same way there. He would just study, study hard. All the time, he always did. And so, here he is. But it's just been a nice, it's been a different road, all different, but very good. And my youngest son, Robin, my youngest son has got potential--I think--to make more money than all of them put together. If he could get it all together. I think he's got potential to make more than all of them together. Because his mind, the way he does things, and how he can put it together. And where the others are just completely different.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you a couple more questions about your work at Hanford. First of all, did you have to—when you were working out there--did you have to have special security clearance, or--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yes, you do. You have to have security clearance. Yeah, and it was very secret. All the time, secret. You just didn't talk about what you did. But you had to have security clearance all the time, yeah. Always security clearance. And also, during the early years, in the laboratory you had what they called--they had some pencils, they were the ones that could detect radiation, and that kind of thing. Very interesting work. Actually for me, very good work. Looking back at it, and how you had to go. But that break thing made me soft. I'd never heard of a break. I'll tell you, that was something else. I got so soft I couldn't--God, that was the worst, you know, physically.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was going to ask you also about President Kennedy came in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor, I was asking about that.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, you bet. Took my whole family to that. I had some 35 millimeter slides for a long time, I think I've still got them around someplace, when he came during that time. That was a great experience, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you have any specific memories of what the day was like, or--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, it was very hot. It was very hot, and lot of people went out and lot of people had car problems out there on that day. And what they did to get us out there, what they did--to make room, they had taken the graders and pushed back a lot of the sagebrush and stuff so we could go, a lot of people could get out there. It was a great thing. They came in by helicopter, oh, from Moses Lake. And that was really an interesting day.</p>
<p>Bauman: You certainly have been in the Tri-Cities a long time, and seen a lot of changes. I wonder what some of the changes you've seen.</p>
<p>Mitchell: The changes I've seen is in well, the racial situation has changed a lot. Of course you're never going to completely get rid of that, but it's changed a lot. Because I know there were times when you couldn't do things. They tell the stories about Kennewick. I don't know all about those things like that, but I know—with the troubles that I had. But one of the things that really was tough, my uncles that lived in East Pasco, with the relative citizens over there--before I moved to Richland, we had a group called the East Pasco Improvement Association, where we would clean up vacant lots and trash and try to get things cleaned up on our own. The streets were not paved, but my uncles, after I moved to Richland, they would go to city council and they would just get completely ignored there. And they were trying to get sewer—get sewer and pavement and things like that over there. And then, the people used to live in Pasco, as you go on the underpath, all to the right and to the left, hey lived all—especially to the right—all the way down to A Street, they lived all the way there. And then the city commercially pushed those people all the way from the railroad tracks, all the way out to right where Kurtzman Park is now. They pushed those people all the way back out there, and all the way through. They had people all the way down in there, there were people who lived in there. So they pushed them out of there and pushed them back farther out. But they went through a hard time on there, trying to get their water and sewer, and getting the streets and all that paved, and that sort of thing. And then of course, as far as the schools were concerned in Richland, my kids didn't have a lot of trouble. But--the schools were excellent--but what happened is, my wife, she always went to PTAs, she stayed involved. We got them into scouts, Little League programs, all organized stuff. And so they had a chance to participate. And we also, when I first came to Richland, you had to fill out an application and tell what religion are you. When I put down Protestant, well in about a day or day and a half, the people from Richland Baptist Church—just right down here on GW Way—my kids grew up in that church. And that's a Southern Baptist Church which say they were not racially happy to have you there. But you know what, they treated us good there. We went there, we learned a lot, a lot of things you learned there, a lot of things were different. As the kids got older, people kind of thought maybe my son wanted to marry some of their daughters or something. But anyway, I learned a lot there and I went there and everything and it turned out good. Of course, because I wanted the kids to be able to participate where they live. I didn't want to drive back to East Pasco every Sunday or something. Soon as I get out of school, I'd run there. No, I want them to participate where we are and where we live. And that turned out good in that way. And we lived down at 100 Craig Hill when we first moved to town, and then we moved to 612 Newcomer. That was right after I couldn't buy the house that I ended up at Newcomer, ended up there. And then we could walk. They hadn't had that development down where Safeway and all that is there. We used to walk down, the kids walked across that field to church right there. And so I wanted to be able to go to church and they would participate with the people they go to school with and they see every day.</p>
<p>Bauman: After you moved in and got your house in Richland, did you see Richland start to open up a little bit more? See more African Americans at all, or--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, it did open up a little bit. Especially, well see, when the government owned it—I think there was a guy named Fred Baker and Fred Clardy when I moved. But anyway, because other people moved to Richland. Mr. Wallace did, Mr. Rockamore moved there, the Burns moved there, because they got jobs. And then as things developed in long about '65, and when I bought my house in '76 down here, then the Burns bought a house, then some other people bought. The Browns, CW, and those guys, they bought homes and that. And CW and Norris Brown, in fact they were from my hometown. And their dad and my dad worked on the Texas Pacific Railroad together. And that time when we moved to Hermiston in '51, to work on McNary Dam, well that dad worked over there too. They went to middle school over there. When the middle schools came over here to play these guys, those guys just literally tore them apart. So when Mr. Brown moved back and they started working here, well they got a job for Mr. Brown so those kids could go to school over here and play basketball. And they also were in the trailer court. They lived in the trailer court, the Brown boys did. And they went to John Ball School. There was a little elementary school up here called John Ball, and that's where they went to school—elementary school. Then from there, they moved to Hermiston, played and then they come back, and then they went to Richland High, and all of that. That's how we all got back over here. We moved around where the work was. And so it turned out that they'd done well. I think we've done well, considering the opportunities. We just moved ahead. You can't change things. So you have to make the best of what it is. And that's what we tried to do.</p>
<p>Bauman: So overall, how was Hanford as a place to work for you?</p>
<p>Mitchell: Well for me, it was all right. Course, construction, you know, guys, I just do my job. I didn't get involved in talking about what the government was doing and all that kind of stuff, I didn't worry about the politics, I just did my job. And I tried to learn as much as I could learn, and I always paid attention to what's going on, what they doing, and how they're doing it and everything. And I always just paid attention, that's what I tried to do.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you think would be important to talk about, that we haven't talked about yet?</p>
<p>Mitchell: What now, anything--</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about yet--</p>
<p>Mitchell: Oh, let's see. No, no I don't think so. I think you're okay, and if you think of something you can always call me or something. Well, I've gone through all of it, and I didn't see any blood at the end. And I think people know when I walk down the street, I think people are not going to bother me. In fact, speaking of that, I coached baseball. I didn't coach the Little League, but I coached the next one, they call it Pointer League, 13, 14, all the way up through Legion, back in Legion. I coached that, and was very successful at it. And what I would do is, when I would work the games at Washington State or wherever I was, at night I'd make notes of what happened, what they did, how they did it, and in what situations they did that. And then when I coached, I had winning teams here. Turned out everybody wanted to play for me. I took them to California, and to state tournament, which they hadn't been before. And so it got so that if I wanted to go for walk, I had to go down by the river. If I'm walking down the street, screech! Mr. Mitchell, you need a ride? No, I'm fine. Pretty soon, screech, you need a ride, Mr. Mitchell? That's a good feeling, to be able to walk and people want to stop and give you a ride. That's a good feeling. So you just never know, you just do the best you can, do what you know to do, and do it right. I never felt like holding grudges, or anything like that. Don't have time. Don't have time for that. I'd get it done. The one thing, I would never make a social worker too good. The reason being is that nobody ever gave me anything—I mean anything. And for those people that can't work, they can babysit or do something for those that can work. And I know that people, if they have to, they can--and I was going to Seattle the other day, my wife and I, there was people picking apples, Saturday morning. It was cold. Sunday, they were picking apples. As long as there's work, you can go do it. I just think nobody have to give you anything. You got health and strength, you can go work. You can go do stuff. Just get out of your way and give you opportunity and make it out there and go get it. And to think about we have to bring people from Mexico in to do all of our work and harvest all our crops. You got to do it because we don't want to do it I guess. I guess Americans don't like to work in the field, do that straining of work. And the other thing is, Dr. Bauman, if we could get people to officiate sports--and I don't care what sport it is—we could solve unemployment problems. Kids keep coming. There's no downsizing. The least you're going to make in any kind of a youth sport, like AAU or middle school basketball, is about two to three times minimum wage per hour. You're going to make somewhere between 20 and 30 bucks an hour, just officiating basic sports. Just going down here at 4:00 in the afternoon on Saturdays. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do all of that. And it's out there. And everybody says, we don't want to do it. In the clinic, we teaching clinic, and the guy says, well, what do you think is the worst thing about it? Well, maybe I'll make a call or something that costs the game, some parents are mad at me, angry at me. I said well, just think about when you're learning to drive a car. When you first started driving a car, you weren't very good at it. But as you got better at it, you learned. Your parents let you drive it to the store, and then pretty soon on GW Way, and pretty soon you drive to Pasco and Kennewick, pretty soon the freeway, and pretty soon you get pretty good at it. Then you can go to Seattle and drive on the freeway in the city. And I said, you have to do it a step at a time. That's how you do it. So to me, there's no such thing as an excuse. My grandfather says that—on my mom's side, because I don’t know my grandfather on dad's side--he said, there's no such thing as excuse. He says, in Cunningham, killed can't, and whipped couldn't until he could. He said there's no such thing as an excuse. And I know. I kind of like that, because you can always do something. If you can't do it, like I said, you can babysit for somebody that can do something. And I get after people all the time. There was a guy at Richland, his son played basketball. Couple years ago, three years ago now. Good ball player, 6'6". And his dad was a big guy, he played pro-basketball or something. And he says, I'm kind of a guy that like to stay back. I said, what? He said, I kind of like to stay back and stay out of things. I said, well I think you ought to move up, not stay in back. I said. That's the problem. I said, get up here and see what's going--get in the middle of things, and see what's going on. That's how you get there. And I learned one thing, Dr. Bauman—if you go to someplace all the time, you don't have to say anything to anybody. But after a few times, somebody's going to stop you and talk to you and ask you a question, because they figure must interested because you came. And they going to stop and ask you a question. And I sit and I’ve observed it all the time, and I look at people and I say, well. Of course it's easy for me, maybe. But for them it's probably hard. But if you just get out and participate, you just get out and see what's going on, it can do a lot for you. It can do an awful lot for you.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to thank you very much for coming here today and talking to us.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Oh, yeah. Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Always good to see you.</p>
<p>Mitchell: Yeah, it's always good to see you.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thanks very much.</p>
<p>Mitchell: It's a great community. And the other thing about opportunity, just get out of my way, I don't expect anybody to hand me anything. Just move over, I'll get it. And I always told my kids that. And they know how to talk to people, they know how to tell you if they disagree without calling you a bunch of names—without calling you a bunch of names and throwing a fit. They can disagree. And the other thing I wanted them to learn to do was to get up in front of a microphone and say thank you. That sort of thing. Yeah. Well, I got plenty to do--</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:00:29
Bit Rate/Frequency
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188 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
300 Area
200-East Area
200 Area
100-H
N Reactor
325 Building
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1947-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca1948-1965
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
McCormack, Mike
Kathren, Ron
Dibble, Dick
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with CJ Mitchell
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with CJ Mitchell conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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2013-10-30
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
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2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
100-H
200 Area
200-East Area
300 Area
325 Building
3760 Building
DuPont
General Electric
N Reactor
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa47502c08171bf80f5b805fefabd2e46.jpg
1dcfd89b533e26e399b9d34554899883
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6660f59b710ac080c60889fce79ca005.mp4
7c1924e452a95fb176cdede01fe84200
Dublin Core
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Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Curt Donahue
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Donahue_Curt</strong></p>
<p>Camera man: Rolling here. I'll set this while you do your--</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. We'll go ahead and get started. I'm going to start by just having you say your name and then spell it.</p>
<p>Donahue: Oh, okay. It's Curt Donahue. It's C-U-R-T D-O-N-A-H-U-E.</p>
<p>Bauman: Thank you. And my name's Robert Bauman. Today is August 7<sup>th</sup> of 2013. And we're conducting oral history interview with Mr. Donahue on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking about Mr. Donahue's experiences working in the Hanford site. So I'd like to start maybe with having you talk about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when you came, and that sort of thing.</p>
<p>Donahue: Okay. In 1944, my father was out of work, and we lived in White Salmon, Washington. And the superintendent of schools was receiving a job here in Richland as the principal at one of the schools and asked my dad if he was interested in having a custodian job here. And he was. He wanted any job. So we moved here in September of 1944 and lived in one of the original houses. I was nine years old, and I tell people now I used to roam the streets of Richland before they were streets. It was a very unique period to grow up and a unique town to grow up in. There were so many things that we were able to do that kids just can't do today. So when I graduated from high school, I went to work in the 700 Area to begin with. And, after a few months, transferred out to the 300 Area and ended up working really all over. I was in regional monitoring and then radiation monitoring.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let's talk a little bit first about your years growing up here. You mentioned that there were sort of things that kids could do here that—</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah, we—</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you have any stories or memories about that?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah, one of the things that I remember most, and that was to be able to sleep outside. Just take a blanket and a piece of canvas and roll up in the backyard and sleep outside. The only hazards were the mosquitoes, and sometimes I'd wake up with an eye shut and a fat lip. And then there was a stream from an irrigation flue that ran along Wellsian Way. And my wife doesn't believe me, but there used to be a lake there. And there was a wooded area right where the flue emptied. And it was kind of a pool there and a sandy beach. And several of my friends and I would go camp overnight there, three blocks from home. But we were off in another world, and we really enjoyed having that freedom.</p>
<p>Bauman: So this is near Wellsian Way? Is that sort of near where Fred Meyer is now?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. Where Fred Meyer is right now is actually the spot that had the sandy beach. And we would bring potatoes from home and bury them in the sand, build a campfire over them, and then have a potato snack before we went to sleep. [LAUGHTER] It was a lot of fun.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you said you moved into one of the early homes. Where was that, what complex?</p>
<p>Donahue: That was on Fitch, right on the corner of Fitch and Douglass. And the people that lived in the other end, the Browns, actually had the first option to buy, but they chose not to, so my parents bought the house and remodeled it and lived there for a good many years. 38 years, I think.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what schools did you go to then?</p>
<p>Donahue: I went to Lewis and Clark. In fact, that's where my dad was a custodian in those early years. And then I also went to school at Bethlehem Lutheran in Kennewick a couple of years. And my freshman year of high school, I spent at Concordia Academy in Portland, and then came to Columbia High School in Richland for the last three years. In fact, we're having our 60th anniversary this year.</p>
<p>Bauman: So '53?</p>
<p>Donahue: '53, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: How big was the class, do you remember?</p>
<p>Donahue: I think the class was 159. I know I graduated 59th out of that group. I was kind of in the middle.</p>
<p>Bauman: Other memories of Richland at the time? Were there community events, any sort of special events that you remember?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. Atomic Frontier Days, of course, was our big event every year. And the church that I went to, the youth group usually put together some kind of a float. Sometimes it was maybe dressing up in something patriotic and riding on the back of a flatbed truck. But it was fun, and the people enjoyed it. And also, there was a group called the Mini Singers, and I was a member of that group and put on concerts every year until I outgrew it and was no longer considered a Mini Singer. When your voice changes from soprano to tenor, you are no longer invited. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: My sense of Richland at the time, especially in 1944, there's still wartime--'45, that there were people coming from all over the United States to work here. Is that your experience growing up?</p>
<p>Donahue: Oh, yes. Yeah. Every other classmate was from a different state, and it made for interesting living. They all had stories. Some of them were worth retelling, [LAUGHTER] and some of them were not.</p>
<p>Bauman: Let's talk about your work, then. You said you started basically right after you graduated high school, working at Hanford, 1953.</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. Actually, in August of that year, I got hired on. I worked in the reproduction shop in the 700 Area. My first job was a back tender on an ozalid machine. And that merely meant that when the ozalid prints came off that machine, they'd come out in a continuous sheet, so you'd have to trim each one, fold it up, and package it according to the orders. So you had to be rather speedy to keep up with the machine. And I managed to work my way through several different promotions in there and got to run a good number of the machines—Photostat machine, offset printer, things that we don't use anymore, really, because of the new reproduction facilities.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what sorts of things were you printing up there?</p>
<p>Donahue: It was configurations of equipment that was being built out at the project, buildings, and a lot of floor plans and that sort of thing. You really didn't have time to look at what it was, other than here’s the edge of it, cut it, and fold it up and keep moving.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to go back quickly to before you started working there. Growing up here, how much did you know about Hanford and what was going on there?</p>
<p>Donahue: We knew nothing until they dropped the bomb. And then the Villager newspaper had that massive headline, and the word got out what was going on here. And there was a parade leaving town. There were, I guess, a goodly number of people who wanted no part of it or were afraid of it, essentially.</p>
<p>Bauman: So your recollection is a lot of people left at some point after that.</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: But by the time you went to work in '53, obviously, you knew what was--</p>
<p>Donahue: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we did.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you said you started the 700 Area, and then at some point, you moved to the 300 Area?</p>
<p>Donahue: 300 Area, and a group that was called regional monitoring. And the function there was to gather samples of vegetation, water, soil, and air samples and bring them back to the lab. So all we did was drive around the country, collecting samples and bring them back.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you would get samples from various parts of the area?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. One route might be picking up water samples in all of the 100 Areas. Another route would be vegetation samples along the highway from 300 Areas to Two West. Soil samples in most anywhere. And then we'd do, with a Geiger counter, monitor about a 100 square foot area plot, here and there. And if we found large radioactive particles, we’d scoop them up in an ice cream cup and bring them back to the lab for their analysis.</p>
<p>Bauman: So at that point, it’d go to someone else who would do the analysis? Or were you involved in that analysis?</p>
<p>Donahue: I'm sorry. I didn't hear.</p>
<p>Bauman: After you brought it back to the lab, that would go to someone else?</p>
<p>Donahue: It would go to the lab. Yeah. We were not really part of the lab, other than we were the collectors. So we didn't know what the results were.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so if you detected something that seemed to suggest that there was something present, you would scoop it up and--</p>
<p>Donahue: No. On one trip—it was a cross country trip through the sagebrush. And on my way to Rattlesnake Mountain, and an eagle, a golden eagle, jumped up alongside of me and got about five feet off the ground and right back down, and running, and it turned in front of me, and I hit it. And it was injured, so I killed it and brought it into the lab, and they did an autopsy on it and gave it back to me, frozen. And so I had it mounted. It was a 59 inch wingspan. Beautiful bird. It was a shame to have hit it, but I didn't know why it wasn't getting off the ground until they gave it back to me. It had a whole rabbit in its stomach. It was a little too heavy [LAUGHTER] to lift off the ground, I guess.</p>
<p>Bauman: Too much weight. [LAUGHTER] So about how many people were, in terms of number of people, were involved in going out and giving this monitor?</p>
<p>Donahue: As I remember, about 15, I think.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long did you do that?</p>
<p>Donahue: Oh, almost two years, I think. And then I went into radiation monitoring.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And so with the radiation monitoring, what did that involve?</p>
<p>Donahue: Dress up and tail a pipe fitter. Make sure it's okay where he's at, what he's doing, that he doesn't get over exposed. And just keep monitoring that process. And that was primarily what I did in the Hot Semi-Works in the 200 East Area. And then the last months that I worked there, I was going school at CBC and wanted to be on a rotating shift. And so then I monitored for the mobile x-ray crew. And we might end up anywhere in the area to x-ray something that they were interested in.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so your job was to make sure that people didn't too much exposure?</p>
<p>Donahue: To set up a barrier, and we'd find out what it is we're going to x-ray. And the technician would say, well, I'm going to have to use this much amperes and so on. And so I'd get an idea of, really, how far away do we need to keep people? And we'd set up that kind of a barrier and then do the job and get out of there, go do another one somewhere. It was interesting.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. And were there dosimeters or something that you would check out? Was that part of it, as well, or--?</p>
<p>Donahue: I had a—I don't remember the name of the instrument now. That's a long time ago. It read rads, rather than millirads as a gauge. And so that's the tool that was used to monitor that operator and myself. And also would walk the perimeter to make sure that we had the level as low as we needed to.</p>
<p>Bauman: So this was in sort of mid to late 1950s?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. I left in November of 1957. I got caught in an ROF and, having just got into radiation monitoring, I was in the lower 10%, and that's about—I think I was the last one in that group to be laid off.</p>
<p>Bauman: And what did you do, then, after that?</p>
<p>Donahue: I went into fraternal life insurance for a short time over in Olympia and applied at Boeing. And because of the time I spent monitoring for mobile x-ray, I got on as an x-ray technician in the Boe-Mark tank shop. And then worked my way from there through engineering. And then my last assignment before I retired was the engineer operations manager for Commercial Avionics Systems.</p>
<p>Bauman: And that was all at Boeing and--</p>
<p>Donahue: Spent 36 years there.</p>
<p>Bauman: So during your time in radiation monitoring, was there ever an incident where someone did—was exposed to too much or anything along those lines and sort of incidences?</p>
<p>Donahue: We had a problem—excuse me. At the Hot Semi-Works, there was a rupture in one of the lines going to tank farm. And so they brought in a big drag line to dig that up and connect to it and get a loop around the other side of where the break was. And I was monitoring that, and—it was a TP instrument that I was trying to think of earlier—and had it on a probe, a 30 foot probe. And I was halfway down in the hole, monitoring every scoop that the drag line brought up. And he finally brought up one that meter went off scale, and I come scrambling up out of the hole to get to where I could get a reading to determine what exposure I had and what the people up around it had, because there was 15, 20 people watching this excavation. And when I come running up out of the hole, they went running away. I was in the office, I think, for two weeks after that. Just kept me out of any more exposure for that length of time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. And was that sort of the practice if someone had been exposed, they had to stay--</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. Depending on what level of exposure you got, I knew guys who had to sit for a couple of days was all. And some had even longer than I did. Those things happened in that kind of business. And you deal with it the best way we know how.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Obviously, secrecy, security were very much a part of Hanford. Did that impact you at all?</p>
<p>Donahue: Well, security was, I think, very good, and you were checked everywhere you went. And by the time I was working out there, there wasn't so much secrecy anymore. Processes were, and it didn't seem like any one person knew the whole process. And the kind of work that I did, I was not interested in the process. I was interested in keeping somebody safe and myself safe. So processes weren't high on my priority list.</p>
<p>Bauman: Did you have to have special clearance to--</p>
<p>Donahue: Oh, yeah. I had a secret clearance.</p>
<p>Bauman: In terms of getting on the site, did you drive your own car? Did you take buses?</p>
<p>Donahue: No, drove cars and Jeeps and Dodge Power Wagon. I had the distinction of getting a Dodge Power Wagon stuck twice. Once because of a coworker told me, oh, you can get through there, and got about 15 feet into this wash that soaked to the running boards. It took two of those large Mack wreckers to lift that thing out of there. And then the other time was down by Horn Rapids. In the wintertime, the ground had frozen and then had thawed, so there was about an inch of thawed mud on top of the ice, and you could not get any traction at all. And it had to drag it out of there. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: What you would say were sort of the biggest challenges in working at Hanford for yourself, and what were some of the best rewards about your job there?</p>
<p>Donahue: I think the challenge was—particularly the jobs that I had on the project—were one of being alert to whatever radiation aspects, whatever exposure you were getting. Make sure you were alert to it so that you knew how to deal with it, how to handle it. And, of course, out on the project, when you're running around with a Geiger counter out in the sagebrush, you're pretty alert for rattlesnakes, too. And some of us had those experiences. But I guess I never considered what challenges we were facing. I have a very healthy respect for radiation, radioactive material. I was never afraid of it. And I think that the guys I worked with had the same attitude.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so the most rewarding part of working there, then?</p>
<p>Donahue: I think that when you took a guy into a cell in Semi-Works or a PUREX facility, and you brought him out, and you could tell them that, hey, you didn't get anything significant today. And the thanks that they showed and displayed, thanks for watching my back, so to speak. That was the most rewarding. That, and just the people you worked with. I can't recall anyone I worked with that I had really dislike for. Everybody was fun to be around.</p>
<p>Bauman: A lot of the students that I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Obviously—you were working at Hanford in the 1950s, which was, really, in many ways, the height of the Cold War. I wonder if you have any thoughts about that in part for people who were born post-Cold War, things that you think would be important for them to understand about that period and working at Hanford during that time?</p>
<p>Donahue: I don't think people who were born really do understand. We grew up having the fear—in fact, the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, we lived in White Salmon, and we went to church in Hood River, Oregon. And that toll bridge that we crossed, the toll taker told us that we had just been attacked. So on the way back from church, as a six-year-old, I'm looking downstream, afraid they're coming up the river. And that's kind of what we lived under for the next several years. And, of course, when those wars with Germany and Japan were ended, and it wasn't very long and we were into the Cold War. And lived again with, get under your desk, and this is what you do, and we practice it. And then the whole time working out here, well, until Gorbachev became the Premier of Russia, we lived under that threat. And so that was just the way you grew up, and I don't think people who have lived since then or even were real young in those latter years can really comprehend what that was like. And would I live that way again if I needed to? Yes. It was a time when everybody pitched in and did their part.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder if there are any other incidents or events or humorous things that happened during your time working at Hanford that sort of stand out to you?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. The night after we found out the Russians had launched Sputnik, the x-ray technician and I, at the time that we were told it would be passing over, we stopped and got out where we were away from light, and we saw it going across the sky. And I just remember the eerie feeling to be able to look up there and see something that people had put up there. And it was working. And what did that mean? Where are we going to go from here? And of course, we've gone a long ways from there. And fortunately, we caught up and passed everybody. That was probably the thing that I would say stuck out most as a happening.</p>
<p>Bauman: Sure. And then how would you overall sort of assess Hanford as a place to work during your years there?</p>
<p>Donahue: I'm sorry. Say again?</p>
<p>Bauman: How would you assess Hanford as a place to work? How was it as a place to work?</p>
<p>Donahue: Oh, I was happy there. If I hadn't gotten laid off, I'd have retired there, I'm sure. I think it was a good place to work. I had fair management, and I thought I was paid a fair salary for what I was doing. I was very happy there. And I was disappointed to get caught in that kind of a situation, but I understood that it was seniority, and so you just roll with the punches and deal with it.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about or that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like to?</p>
<p>Donahue: Hm. I have to tell one story. We were about 11 years old, I guess. The superintendent of schools at that time was Mr. Fergen, and his youngest son was the same age as me, and they lived in the house next door to the first house we lived in, one of the original homes, just east of the laundry dry cleaners. And Truman and I would wander, like I said, the streets before they were streets. And he was just wild about animals and plants and that sort of thing. And that's what he ended up doing in life, too. He studied biology. And one day, we were wandering around, and here was an irrigation ditch that had pretty well run dry. There was a dead muskrat. And he got so excited, and he picked that muskrat up, and he cradled it like it was a little baby, took it all the way home, and I thought, Truman, you're nuts. You have no idea what that thing's been—the next day at Lewis and Clark, he had it on a cart with the principal and going around to each classroom and giving all kinds of details about how the muskrat lived, and showing them their teeth. And I just—blew me away. I thought when he got home with that thing, his parents were going to tell him to throw it in the garbage can. [LAUGHTER] Here he showed the whole school!</p>
<p>Bauman: Good story.</p>
<p>Donahue: Ah, there's lots of other stories. My first job was selling newspapers in the cafeteria. And the cafeteria is the old buildings right across from the Federal Building. And I'd sell a Spokesman Review, and there were a number of men who would, when they finished reading their paper, as they went out to get on a bus or on one of the stretch cars, would give me the paper back, resell it. So it was kind of fun.</p>
<p>Bauman: This was a cafeteria for Hanford workers?</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. There were some big shots in there that would, because they had these stretch '42 Chevys, I think they were, that they'd piece together, and they had about four doors, five doors on each side. And some of these guys rode those, so you knew they were pretty much up there. And I believe that one of my customers was Enrico Fermi, because he was here incognito, and when I see pictures of him, I guess one of the guys that gave me my paper back. You don't forget those guys.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what year would this have been around when you--</p>
<p>Donahue: Well, that would have been in '44, early '45.</p>
<p>Bauman: Shortly after you got here.</p>
<p>Donahue: Yeah. And then about mid '45, I got a paper route of the whole south end. Then I was in the big money. Right? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So what paper was that?</p>
<p>Donahue: Spokesman Review. Yeah. I earned enough to buy a brand new Columbia bike, and I used that for the next several years, delivering papers. That was a proud moment.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Sure. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today—</p>
<p>Donahue: Certainly.</p>
<p>Bauman: --and sharing your experiences and memories. I appreciate it.</p>
<p>Donahue: I'm glad to be here, and it's fun to reminisce, too. So it's been fun for me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Good, great.</p>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
700 Area
100 Area
300 Area
200 Area
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:34:00
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
207kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1944-1957
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1953-1957
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Curt Donahue
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Curt Donahue conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-8-7
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
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2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
Boeing
Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site.
Richland (Wash.)
Secrecy
-
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12432b847d8976b43edbd4ed179f1df6
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6fb28b74865c59fa983d59478c172fcb.mp4
4fc0bcd83000ceedee84a5c50d7f1d95
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Daniels, Edmon
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Northwest Public Television | Daniels_Edmon</strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Edmon Daniels: [WHISTLING]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I guess we're ready to start.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Okay.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. Let's start by having you state your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. D-A-N-I-E-L-S.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date is November 20th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So wondering if we could start by having you just tell us when you arrived in the area here. What brought you here?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I arrived in '51. 1951. And my parents was here. So the family moved here.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And did they come for jobs at Hanford, or--?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: They came--my father came in '43 when he heard about the Hanford Project. And my mother joined him in '44.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And what sorts of jobs did they have at Hanford?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, at that time, it was just construction. And my mother worked in the mess hall and cleaning up the barracks.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So how old were you in 1951 then, when you came up?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: 1951. You know, that's the deal. I never tell my age. [LAUGHTER] I was in grade school.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So, what are your first memories of arriving here as a young person?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, as a young kid, you're just in a new place. And memories are just meeting people. But, I guess it was—there was quite a few relatives here at that time. Just meeting them. Because I really didn't know--I hadn't been around my father that much at a young age. He left when I was just--wasn't that old. And my mother left after that, so. It was just really just being with them more than anything else.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And so where did you migrate from? Where had you been living before?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Texas. The eastern part of Texas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And so, your parents were here. And were there other family members as well?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I had uncles here and some aunts. One aunt, I think, was here. Yes. And cousins.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So where did you live and what school did you go to?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Grade school, I went to Whittier. And went to junior high--it was junior high then, it's middle school now. I went to junior high--that was the only one junior high in Pasco. And one high school at Pasco. And then I had a few classes at CBC.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So what was Pasco like, growing up in the area in the '50s and '60s?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, growing up, I tell people it's the best place in the world to be because you could do things. And, as a kid, you do whatever you want to do. There was no restrictions whatsoever. Then as you get older, you find that there are restrictions. [LAUGHTER] But as a kid, you just go and enjoy playing. And that's what we did. My father told me, I want you to play and have fun. Because when you get older, you'll start working and you'll work longer than you ever played. And I thank him for that because he was definitely right. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So, in terms of Pasco itself then, you remember any specific or special community events or things happening at the time?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, the only thing we had--and that was probably any place, Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland--was baseball. We had summer baseball. There was no, like we have now, AEU basketball or anything like that. We played baseball in the summer. And my father'd been an old baseball player. He was my first sort of like coach, was my father. So that's what we did during the summer. In the wintertime, we just threw snowballs at each other. [LAUGHTER] Yep.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: With Pasco at the time, was it racially integrated, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes it was. It was. We live on the east of town, which is on the east side of the railroad tracks. And, boy, it really wasn't—because all blacks live on the east side of town. But the house we lived in, there was four houses on the street, and we were the only black family on the street. But as a kid, that doesn't bother you because, man, kids are kids. We just had fun. And I was the youngest kid on the block. So, it was just like going down the street and saying hello to everyone, not worrying about color or anything like that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: What about community institutions like churches? Were there churches in the area growing up, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. There was two churches right around the corner from us. A Baptist church and a Methodist church. And my mother took us to the Methodist church. That was the church I got married in. Oh, I think all my family got married--no, just my brother and I got married in that church.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And what's the name of the church then?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: St James--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: St James.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: --Methodist Church, yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So you grew up then , from 1951 on, in Pasco. And at some point you started working at Hanford?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. And I was working--well, I was working at--well, I first got an interview for Hanford, oh boy, I think it was like in '62. '61 or '62. At the old 703 Building, as a clerk typist. And everyone then, you had to take a typing test. And it's funny, my grandkids always wonder, what is a typewriter? [LAUGHTER] Yep. So I was supposed to go to work, and then I got called into the service. So I didn't go to work at Hanford until '66.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And when you did start in '66, what area were you working with, what sort of jobs?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: 300 Area. 300 Area. I worked in the mail room. The old 3706 Building.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Oh, okay. And how long did you work there then?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: I worked in the mail room, I think it was maybe--I worked there from '66 to '68. And then I went into the operations department.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And where on site did you work in terms of operations?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Operations, we worked all over. Our main building was 325, but we worked at Two East, Two West, 100 F, all over. And all of the 300s.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And what sort of tasks or jobs did you have in the operations department?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Operations was all the buildings. Taking care of the fans and all of those things. And just making sure the building was temperature-wise okay.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And how long did you work in operations?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: I worked in operations for--well, in operations I worked 38 years in operations. But from operations I went into [INAUDIBLE] work. But it was still the same department, just different.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And so which contractor or contractors were you working for?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Battelle Northwest.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. The whole time it was--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So in the work you did at Hanford, did you have to have special safety training of any kind?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, yes. Lots of safety training. Mask and the PCs, protective clothing and all that. Lots of work with protective clothing.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So when you say protective clothing, what sorts of things are you talking about?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well some jobs, we would go in, we would have to cover up all parts. No skin showing whatsoever. Have two pair of pants, two pair of shoes. Well, not--pair of shoes, rubbers, and then maybe the rubber covers over those. Masks, and the whole works. The rubber gloves. We went into some very hot areas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So you have to have a dosimeter or something?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. A dosimeter. And extra dosimeters also.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Did you ever have any incidents during that time where you had exposure, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well mostly--well, you always got some exposure. But I know most of the time that we would be working, if there was four or us or ten of us, we'd have so many RCTs around us that if your badge went off, they would just evacuate the whole area. Well, the room you was working in. And find out exactly what was what. The exposure. And then, you might go back in.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And so, was it pretty common for you to--so you did it all over the site, right? Different buildings?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. Yes. All over the site.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. Of the work you did, what was the most challenging part of it? Was there some aspect of what you did that was the most challenging, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, the most challenging part is when you get completely dressed with everything, and I'm looking at you, and I can't tell who you are or who he is. So we tape our name on our back. And that way, if I needed something from John, I'd see if he'd turn around and I could see. Okay, John, I need this. That was the most challenging thing. And then, confined space area. That's very challenging. It didn't bother me, but some people could not go into a confined space. They'd sort of tear the room up. That happened to one guy. [LAUGHTER] He did tear the room up. But he was--we wasn't even--he was at the whole body counter and they closed the door. And at that time they did not have the TV cameras to watch the people. And all they heard was banging, banging, banging on the door. The guy just went crazy. Claustrophobia. So after that they put the cameras so they could check on the people that was inside. But it never bothered me, but some people couldn't take that at all.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Right. And when you started working there, was there bus transportation out to the site still, or--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: No. There was bus transportation for us, but we always reported it to 300. And then we would get the van or a truck and go to the other areas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And go from there.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. During your time working out there, were there any sort of incidents or bizarre or strange things that happened? Or something that's sort of memorable that stands out in your mind?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Boy. Nothing, really. There was things that happened, but it was nothing that so traumatized me that--no, not really, no.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So in Hanford site, the mission changed at some point, right, from production to clean up.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Did that shift happen while you were working out there, and did that impact--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Most of the cleanup started right after I left. I always tell them that when I left, the guys couldn't keep up with everything so they had to start tearing the buildings down because I was gone and the work couldn't get done. [LAUGHTER] So it's a good story. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: It is a good story. [LAUGHTER] How was Hanford as a place to work, overall, as you look back at your time working there?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, it was really great because you made, at that time--I don't know how it is now--but that time, you made more than most anyone else, you know, in—probably in the U.S., doing that kind of work. And it was probably the only place that that kind of work was going on. So it was a great place to work. There was some people that you worked for that wasn't so great, but you just did your job. And, like I said, eight hour days, ten hour days, and then sometime--I remember one time, I went to work Friday morning and I worked all the way until Monday afternoon when I went home. Now, I wasn't working all that time, I just had to be there. So I could go to the office and—I don’t want to say—sleep. I could go to--but they had to have one of us there, and I was the only one available at the time. So a payday like that is not bad. When you're getting double time from 8 o'clock Friday up until Monday at 4:00, 5:00, or whatever time you get off. You make darn near two weeks’ pay in a weekend, so can't complain about that. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And were your parents still working there when you started working?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: No. My father retired right after I started working there. And my mother worked there--I don't know how many years she worked out there. But when they closed the old Hanford down, then there wasn't any jobs for black ladies. So she didn't work there anymore. But my father worked construction there. He always tell me that him and my uncle poured the first mud--concrete--for D Area and the 300 Area, really. So they was sort of pioneers of their time.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Right. During this time--'50s, '60s--were there civil rights activities going on?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, there was. There was lots of civil rights activities going on. Even here in the Tri-Cities. They had a march over in Kennewick. And even in Pasco because--well, just like it had been all the time. If you were black, you could not buy a house on the west side of town. They would show it to you. But at that time, houses were very cheap. So if a house was $10,000, they would show the house to you, it might be $16,000. So eventually most of them just lived where they were. And then, some of my cousins moved to Richland later. Bought some very expensive houses. I think they was like $5,000 or $6,000. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Was there like a NAACP or other organizations here locally, do you know?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, there was. NAACP was there. E. M. McGee, he was the president of the NAACP. And he moved next door to us when I was a kid. And then, eventually, he went to work out at Hanford.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And then, when you were going, like say, to Pasco High School and stuff, did whites and blacks--was it fairly interracial there? Or was there maybe racial--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, at that time, we went to school together. The only time it was really interracial was when you were in grade school. In grade school, I can remember going to other kids' homes, because, like I said, you're a kid. And we would go in and the parents would fix us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And they would be the same thing if they came to my house. As you get older, you started separating. But I still have a couple friends that we have been friends--females—we have been friends over 60 years. And we're still friends. It never--we were just friends. And that's the way I love it about that. It didn't matter that she was white and I was black, we were friends. And we're still friends.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And how about the Hanford--working at Hanford itself?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, when I started working out there, I think I was the youngest black person out there. I had some cousins working out there. My uncle worked out there. He was an older gentleman, but he worked in the biology department. My uncle had a college degree. But he was working at a job that probably a 15-year-old could do. And, I don't know, but some people say his supervisor didn't even have a high school education. But, my uncle was a school teacher when he was younger. He worked out there, and a couple of my other cousins worked out there. But they didn't get hired until they was older. So they did not get--they may have put in--I don't think my uncle put in 20 years out there at the Hanford project. And my cousins, they put in maybe 22, 23 years. Something like that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: I was going to go back and ask you about your parents. They came during the war in '43, '44. Did they live in Pasco, or did they live in the barracks out—</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: They lived in the barracks. My father said when he came, they slept in tents because there was--I think he said there was maybe one barracks that was built. They slept in tents. And you can imagine, they went that it wasn't very many people there, and maybe in two months, there was 50,000 people there. They built that place very fast, because they had to. And the strange part about it is--everything was segregated by gender and by race--and my parents would tell me things that they couldn't tell other people. But they told me later that it was really segregated, they even had different mess halls. The blacks eat in this mess hall, the whites--and then, I think if you worked graveyard, you may have ate in the same mess hall. But it was just really weird because I took my father out there one year, and he was showing me where he lived and where my mother lived. And all I see is tumbleweeds. And he knew where everything was. Where the baseball field was, and everything. And here's the funny part. My mother and father, like on weekends if they wanted to get together, they would catch the bus to go to Yakima because they could not get a motel at the Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland. And here's the ironic part. They could get a room in Yakima--an Oriental guy gave them a room in Yakima. And what are they building out there? Something to go over. And he told me that, and I said, man, that's crazy. But that's the way things work. Just really weird. But it was just strange. But out there, my mother, she cleaned barracks and worked in the restroom. The restroom? [LAUGHTER] The lunch room, the mess hall. Lunch room or restroom! But she said that they had the black rooms. And here's a part that no one ever tells. They had barracks just--barracks set up just for some homosexual guys. And no one--I tell people that, and no one--my mother said that was the best barracks to clean up because they were so clean. But it was so bad, and you can imagine that--okay, I'm over here. There's a big 10 foot fence to separate the men's from the ladies’. And she said it got so bad that they would go in--and a couple of ladies went in, and guys in there, I guess tried to attack them. And so they would have to send someone in to the barracks and get all the guys out before the ladies could go in and clean. But these things wasn't told because--well, everything out there was secret. But my parents told me later. And I would tell people about this, nah. I said, well I don't think my parents would lie to me. As I got older, they told me lots of things that happened out there. You think about it, it's a strange way to live. I'm married, but I can't go--well, they had it sort of like a day room where you could go and talk to your wife. And at a certain hour, say goodbye and go back across the fence, and go to your barracks. Maybe that's why they had such long marriages. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did they stay there then, through the rest of the war? In the barracks, do you know?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. And then they moved, I meant the trailer camp out there.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: And then, my parents, they moved to Pasco.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Pasco.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were making at the time, and during the war?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I looked it up. And this is really weird. Because my father was working in Utah when he heard about the Manhattan Project. And it was $0.90 was--I think was like the lowest wage. $0.90 an hour up to $1.00. And I think they made like $1.00 an hour, which was lots of money. My mother made, I think it was $.050 an hour. So, if my father was at a $1.00, so they made $1.50 an hour. That was lots of money. Because I just visited one of my cousins who is 91 years old. And he said that he was working for $5.00 a week. And a week wasn't Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday—you worked half a day on Saturday. So he wasn't getting $0.50 a day. So you can imagine my parents making that amount of money. Which is—and that's what drew so many people here was the wages. And electricians made I think like $1.25 an hour. Well $1.25 an hour when you think some guys, it takes them all week to make $5.00. [LAUGHTER] And they worked more than eight hours a day. Lots of time, they worked 12 hours a day. And so, money-wise, my parents was probably rich. [LAUGHTER] Yes, indeed. Now--well, at that time I think minimum wage, if you had a job that paid you minimum wage, was $0.25. I think that was passed in 1939. So, $1.00 an hour at that time was quite a lot of money.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Right. So your dad heard about it, got a job, and then your mother--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, my mother joined him later. Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Probably, as you said, making a lot more money than they could have in east Texas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Probably making more money than they could have in any place in the U.S. [LAUGHTER] Yep, any place in the U.S.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So I asked you about the most challenging part of working out--what was the most rewarding part about working in Hanford for you?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I think it was one of those deals where you didn't have to worry about next week. You--it was somewhere, like if you got a job, you knew you could have that job would last your lifetime. And that's what it did. I never missed a payday all through my working life. And that's good. That's very good. And you get paid vacations. Holiday pay. [LAUGHTER] You know, I always tell people, I say I never went home tired. Even--we would work, like I said, I worked that whole weekend. I wasn't tired when I went home because I was able to go and sleep until they would call me. So, to have a job like that is very rewarding.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about some of the segregation when your parents were there in '40s during the war. By the time you start working there, very different?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, not—it was very different then. But it was still lots to be--because we had--there was no electricians, pipefitters, or anything like that. Like I said, my uncle who had a degree and he was working for someone—my brother said the guy had an eighth grade education. I don't know. But things like that, why, you couldn't get up. And females were the same way. I remember when there wasn't any females in management or anything else. And there was only one—I remember when I started, there was one lady janitor in the 300 Area. And they had rules then—even when I worked in the supermarket—that females didn't get paid the same as the males, because they said they was restricted to how much they could lift. So thank goodness we have come a long ways from that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Did you see some changes, then, take place during your time working there?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, I seen lots of changes take place. One of the biggest changes was Dr. Wiley became—over all of Battelle. And then when the lady came and she became the president. I guess you could call it the president. But they called it the director of Battelle. We had a meeting once of all the people who had worked there 25 years or longer--35 years or longer. And I was there and they had a dinner for us. So the lady came over who was the director. She said, well, Ed. She said, you've been here quite a while. She said, you've probably seen lots of changes. She said, what's the biggest change you've seen? I said, the director's a lady. And she just fell out laughing. [LAUGHTER] She came over later, she said, the director's a lady. All right. [LAUGHTER] I said, yes, I can remember when there wasn't one lady who was exempt, that was monthly. I said, so there's half of the changes that have been out there. Lots of them. I mean, for the females and for the minority workers.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Is there any aspect of your work at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that we haven't talked about yet that you think is important to talk about?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I tell people from all over--I have relatives all over--and I tell them the best place in the world to live is in the Tri-Cities. And I've been around a few places. And you could buy a house here. Like you go down and you see a house for $250,000. And a house, let's say in parts of California, who is probably as large as this place here. [LAUGHTER] It maybe cost that much money. Me personally, I will never leave here. I will stay here for the rest of my living days. I love to go and visit. But I always tell people, if I'm driving back from California, when I get up on the hill over there and I can see the lights, that's, [SIGH] "I'm home." [LAUGHTER] Yep, it's a beautiful place. Beautiful place.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Well, I don't think I have any more questions. But I do want to thank you for coming in today—</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Hey, my pleasure.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: --and sharing your experiences. I appreciate it.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: My pleasure.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Thanks a lot.</p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: You bet.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Northwest Public Television | Daniels_Edmon</strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Edmon Daniels: [WHISTLING]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Robert Bauman: Okay. All right. I guess we're ready to start.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Okay.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. Let's start by having you state your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. D-A-N-I-E-L-S.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And my name's Bob Bauman. And today's date is November 20th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So wondering if we could start by having you just tell us when you arrived in the area here. What brought you here?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I arrived in '51. 1951. And my parents was here. So the family moved here.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And did they come for jobs at Hanford, or--?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: They came--my father came in '43 when he heard about the Hanford Project. And my mother joined him in '44.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And what sorts of jobs did they have at Hanford?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, at that time, it was just construction. And my mother worked in the mess hall and cleaning up the barracks.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So how old were you in 1951 then, when you came up?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: 1951. You know, that's the deal. I never tell my age. [LAUGHTER] I was in grade school.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So, what are your first memories of arriving here as a young person?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, as a young kid, you're just in a new place. And memories are just meeting people. But, I guess it was—there was quite a few relatives here at that time. Just meeting them. Because I really didn't know--I hadn't been around my father that much at a young age. He left when I was just--wasn't that old. And my mother left after that, so. It was just really just being with them more than anything else.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And so where did you migrate from? Where had you been living before?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Texas. The eastern part of Texas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And so, your parents were here. And were there other family members as well?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I had uncles here and some aunts. One aunt, I think, was here. Yes. And cousins.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So where did you live and what school did you go to?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Grade school, I went to Whittier. And went to junior high--it was junior high then, it's middle school now. I went to junior high--that was the only one junior high in Pasco. And one high school at Pasco. And then I had a few classes at CBC.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So what was Pasco like, growing up in the area in the '50s and '60s?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, growing up, I tell people it's the best place in the world to be because you could do things. And, as a kid, you do whatever you want to do. There was no restrictions whatsoever. Then as you get older, you find that there are restrictions. [LAUGHTER] But as a kid, you just go and enjoy playing. And that's what we did. My father told me, I want you to play and have fun. Because when you get older, you'll start working and you'll work longer than you ever played. And I thank him for that because he was definitely right. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So, in terms of Pasco itself then, you remember any specific or special community events or things happening at the time?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, the only thing we had--and that was probably any place, Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland--was baseball. We had summer baseball. There was no, like we have now, AEU basketball or anything like that. We played baseball in the summer. And my father'd been an old baseball player. He was my first sort of like coach, was my father. So that's what we did during the summer. In the wintertime, we just threw snowballs at each other. [LAUGHTER] Yep.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: With Pasco at the time, was it racially integrated, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes it was. It was. We live on the east of town, which is on the east side of the railroad tracks. And, boy, it really wasn't—because all blacks live on the east side of town. But the house we lived in, there was four houses on the street, and we were the only black family on the street. But as a kid, that doesn't bother you because, man, kids are kids. We just had fun. And I was the youngest kid on the block. So, it was just like going down the street and saying hello to everyone, not worrying about color or anything like that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: What about community institutions like churches? Were there churches in the area growing up, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. There was two churches right around the corner from us. A Baptist church and a Methodist church. And my mother took us to the Methodist church. That was the church I got married in. Oh, I think all my family got married--no, just my brother and I got married in that church.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And what's the name of the church then?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: St James--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: St James.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: --Methodist Church, yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So you grew up then , from 1951 on, in Pasco. And at some point you started working at Hanford?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. And I was working--well, I was working at--well, I first got an interview for Hanford, oh boy, I think it was like in '62. '61 or '62. At the old 703 Building, as a clerk typist. And everyone then, you had to take a typing test. And it's funny, my grandkids always wonder, what is a typewriter? [LAUGHTER] Yep. So I was supposed to go to work, and then I got called into the service. So I didn't go to work at Hanford until '66.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And when you did start in '66, what area were you working with, what sort of jobs?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: 300 Area. 300 Area. I worked in the mail room. The old 3706 Building.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Oh, okay. And how long did you work there then?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: I worked in the mail room, I think it was maybe--I worked there from '66 to '68. And then I went into the operations department.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And where on site did you work in terms of operations?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Operations, we worked all over. Our main building was 325, but we worked at Two East, Two West, 100 F, all over. And all of the 300s.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And what sort of tasks or jobs did you have in the operations department?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Operations was all the buildings. Taking care of the fans and all of those things. And just making sure the building was temperature-wise okay.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And how long did you work in operations?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: I worked in operations for--well, in operations I worked 38 years in operations. But from operations I went into [INAUDIBLE] work. But it was still the same department, just different.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And so which contractor or contractors were you working for?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Battelle Northwest.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. The whole time it was--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. So in the work you did at Hanford, did you have to have special safety training of any kind?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, yes. Lots of safety training. Mask and the PCs, protective clothing and all that. Lots of work with protective clothing.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So when you say protective clothing, what sorts of things are you talking about?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well some jobs, we would go in, we would have to cover up all parts. No skin showing whatsoever. Have two pair of pants, two pair of shoes. Well, not--pair of shoes, rubbers, and then maybe the rubber covers over those. Masks, and the whole works. The rubber gloves. We went into some very hot areas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So you have to have a dosimeter or something?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. A dosimeter. And extra dosimeters also.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Did you ever have any incidents during that time where you had exposure, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well mostly--well, you always got some exposure. But I know most of the time that we would be working, if there was four or us or ten of us, we'd have so many RCTs around us that if your badge went off, they would just evacuate the whole area. Well, the room you was working in. And find out exactly what was what. The exposure. And then, you might go back in.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. And so, was it pretty common for you to--so you did it all over the site, right? Different buildings?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. Yes. All over the site.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. Of the work you did, what was the most challenging part of it? Was there some aspect of what you did that was the most challenging, or?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, the most challenging part is when you get completely dressed with everything, and I'm looking at you, and I can't tell who you are or who he is. So we tape our name on our back. And that way, if I needed something from John, I'd see if he'd turn around and I could see. Okay, John, I need this. That was the most challenging thing. And then, confined space area. That's very challenging. It didn't bother me, but some people could not go into a confined space. They'd sort of tear the room up. That happened to one guy. [LAUGHTER] He did tear the room up. But he was--we wasn't even--he was at the whole body counter and they closed the door. And at that time they did not have the TV cameras to watch the people. And all they heard was banging, banging, banging on the door. The guy just went crazy. Claustrophobia. So after that they put the cameras so they could check on the people that was inside. But it never bothered me, but some people couldn't take that at all.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Right. And when you started working there, was there bus transportation out to the site still, or--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: No. There was bus transportation for us, but we always reported it to 300. And then we would get the van or a truck and go to the other areas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And go from there.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Okay. During your time working out there, were there any sort of incidents or bizarre or strange things that happened? Or something that's sort of memorable that stands out in your mind?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Boy. Nothing, really. There was things that happened, but it was nothing that so traumatized me that--no, not really, no.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So in Hanford site, the mission changed at some point, right, from production to clean up.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Did that shift happen while you were working out there, and did that impact--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Most of the cleanup started right after I left. I always tell them that when I left, the guys couldn't keep up with everything so they had to start tearing the buildings down because I was gone and the work couldn't get done. [LAUGHTER] So it's a good story. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: It is a good story. [LAUGHTER] How was Hanford as a place to work, overall, as you look back at your time working there?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, it was really great because you made, at that time--I don't know how it is now--but that time, you made more than most anyone else, you know, in—probably in the U.S., doing that kind of work. And it was probably the only place that that kind of work was going on. So it was a great place to work. There was some people that you worked for that wasn't so great, but you just did your job. And, like I said, eight hour days, ten hour days, and then sometime--I remember one time, I went to work Friday morning and I worked all the way until Monday afternoon when I went home. Now, I wasn't working all that time, I just had to be there. So I could go to the office and—I don’t want to say—sleep. I could go to--but they had to have one of us there, and I was the only one available at the time. So a payday like that is not bad. When you're getting double time from 8 o'clock Friday up until Monday at 4:00, 5:00, or whatever time you get off. You make darn near two weeks’ pay in a weekend, so can't complain about that. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And were your parents still working there when you started working?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: No. My father retired right after I started working there. And my mother worked there--I don't know how many years she worked out there. But when they closed the old Hanford down, then there wasn't any jobs for black ladies. So she didn't work there anymore. But my father worked construction there. He always tell me that him and my uncle poured the first mud--concrete--for D Area and the 300 Area, really. So they was sort of pioneers of their time.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Right. During this time--'50s, '60s--were there civil rights activities going on?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, there was. There was lots of civil rights activities going on. Even here in the Tri-Cities. They had a march over in Kennewick. And even in Pasco because--well, just like it had been all the time. If you were black, you could not buy a house on the west side of town. They would show it to you. But at that time, houses were very cheap. So if a house was $10,000, they would show the house to you, it might be $16,000. So eventually most of them just lived where they were. And then, some of my cousins moved to Richland later. Bought some very expensive houses. I think they was like $5,000 or $6,000. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Was there like a NAACP or other organizations here locally, do you know?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, there was. NAACP was there. E. M. McGee, he was the president of the NAACP. And he moved next door to us when I was a kid. And then, eventually, he went to work out at Hanford.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And then, when you were going, like say, to Pasco High School and stuff, did whites and blacks--was it fairly interracial there? Or was there maybe racial--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, at that time, we went to school together. The only time it was really interracial was when you were in grade school. In grade school, I can remember going to other kids' homes, because, like I said, you're a kid. And we would go in and the parents would fix us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And they would be the same thing if they came to my house. As you get older, you started separating. But I still have a couple friends that we have been friends--females—we have been friends over 60 years. And we're still friends. It never--we were just friends. And that's the way I love it about that. It didn't matter that she was white and I was black, we were friends. And we're still friends.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: And how about the Hanford--working at Hanford itself?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, when I started working out there, I think I was the youngest black person out there. I had some cousins working out there. My uncle worked out there. He was an older gentleman, but he worked in the biology department. My uncle had a college degree. But he was working at a job that probably a 15-year-old could do. And, I don't know, but some people say his supervisor didn't even have a high school education. But, my uncle was a school teacher when he was younger. He worked out there, and a couple of my other cousins worked out there. But they didn't get hired until they was older. So they did not get--they may have put in--I don't think my uncle put in 20 years out there at the Hanford project. And my cousins, they put in maybe 22, 23 years. Something like that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: I was going to go back and ask you about your parents. They came during the war in '43, '44. Did they live in Pasco, or did they live in the barracks out—</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: They lived in the barracks. My father said when he came, they slept in tents because there was--I think he said there was maybe one barracks that was built. They slept in tents. And you can imagine, they went that it wasn't very many people there, and maybe in two months, there was 50,000 people there. They built that place very fast, because they had to. And the strange part about it is--everything was segregated by gender and by race--and my parents would tell me things that they couldn't tell other people. But they told me later that it was really segregated, they even had different mess halls. The blacks eat in this mess hall, the whites--and then, I think if you worked graveyard, you may have ate in the same mess hall. But it was just really weird because I took my father out there one year, and he was showing me where he lived and where my mother lived. And all I see is tumbleweeds. And he knew where everything was. Where the baseball field was, and everything. And here's the funny part. My mother and father, like on weekends if they wanted to get together, they would catch the bus to go to Yakima because they could not get a motel at the Pasco, Kennewick, or Richland. And here's the ironic part. They could get a room in Yakima--an Oriental guy gave them a room in Yakima. And what are they building out there? Something to go over. And he told me that, and I said, man, that's crazy. But that's the way things work. Just really weird. But it was just strange. But out there, my mother, she cleaned barracks and worked in the restroom. The restroom? [LAUGHTER] The lunch room, the mess hall. Lunch room or restroom! But she said that they had the black rooms. And here's a part that no one ever tells. They had barracks just--barracks set up just for some homosexual guys. And no one--I tell people that, and no one--my mother said that was the best barracks to clean up because they were so clean. But it was so bad, and you can imagine that--okay, I'm over here. There's a big 10 foot fence to separate the men's from the ladies’. And she said it got so bad that they would go in--and a couple of ladies went in, and guys in there, I guess tried to attack them. And so they would have to send someone in to the barracks and get all the guys out before the ladies could go in and clean. But these things wasn't told because--well, everything out there was secret. But my parents told me later. And I would tell people about this, nah. I said, well I don't think my parents would lie to me. As I got older, they told me lots of things that happened out there. You think about it, it's a strange way to live. I'm married, but I can't go--well, they had it sort of like a day room where you could go and talk to your wife. And at a certain hour, say goodbye and go back across the fence, and go to your barracks. Maybe that's why they had such long marriages. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Did they stay there then, through the rest of the war? In the barracks, do you know?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes. And then they moved, I meant the trailer camp out there.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Oh, okay.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: And then, my parents, they moved to Pasco.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Pasco.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Do you know how much money your parents were making at the time, and during the war?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I looked it up. And this is really weird. Because my father was working in Utah when he heard about the Manhattan Project. And it was $0.90 was--I think was like the lowest wage. $0.90 an hour up to $1.00. And I think they made like $1.00 an hour, which was lots of money. My mother made, I think it was $.050 an hour. So, if my father was at a $1.00, so they made $1.50 an hour. That was lots of money. Because I just visited one of my cousins who is 91 years old. And he said that he was working for $5.00 a week. And a week wasn't Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday—you worked half a day on Saturday. So he wasn't getting $0.50 a day. So you can imagine my parents making that amount of money. Which is—and that's what drew so many people here was the wages. And electricians made I think like $1.25 an hour. Well $1.25 an hour when you think some guys, it takes them all week to make $5.00. [LAUGHTER] And they worked more than eight hours a day. Lots of time, they worked 12 hours a day. And so, money-wise, my parents was probably rich. [LAUGHTER] Yes, indeed. Now--well, at that time I think minimum wage, if you had a job that paid you minimum wage, was $0.25. I think that was passed in 1939. So, $1.00 an hour at that time was quite a lot of money.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Right. So your dad heard about it, got a job, and then your mother--</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, my mother joined him later. Yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Probably, as you said, making a lot more money than they could have in east Texas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Probably making more money than they could have in any place in the U.S. [LAUGHTER] Yep, any place in the U.S.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: So I asked you about the most challenging part of working out--what was the most rewarding part about working in Hanford for you?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I think it was one of those deals where you didn't have to worry about next week. You--it was somewhere, like if you got a job, you knew you could have that job would last your lifetime. And that's what it did. I never missed a payday all through my working life. And that's good. That's very good. And you get paid vacations. Holiday pay. [LAUGHTER] You know, I always tell people, I say I never went home tired. Even--we would work, like I said, I worked that whole weekend. I wasn't tired when I went home because I was able to go and sleep until they would call me. So, to have a job like that is very rewarding.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Mm-hm. You talked about some of the segregation when your parents were there in '40s during the war. By the time you start working there, very different?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, not—it was very different then. But it was still lots to be--because we had--there was no electricians, pipefitters, or anything like that. Like I said, my uncle who had a degree and he was working for someone—my brother said the guy had an eighth grade education. I don't know. But things like that, why, you couldn't get up. And females were the same way. I remember when there wasn't any females in management or anything else. And there was only one—I remember when I started, there was one lady janitor in the 300 Area. And they had rules then—even when I worked in the supermarket—that females didn't get paid the same as the males, because they said they was restricted to how much they could lift. So thank goodness we have come a long ways from that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Did you see some changes, then, take place during your time working there?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Yes, I seen lots of changes take place. One of the biggest changes was Dr. Wiley became—over all of Battelle. And then when the lady came and she became the president. I guess you could call it the president. But they called it the director of Battelle. We had a meeting once of all the people who had worked there 25 years or longer--35 years or longer. And I was there and they had a dinner for us. So the lady came over who was the director. She said, well, Ed. She said, you've been here quite a while. She said, you've probably seen lots of changes. She said, what's the biggest change you've seen? I said, the director's a lady. And she just fell out laughing. [LAUGHTER] She came over later, she said, the director's a lady. All right. [LAUGHTER] I said, yes, I can remember when there wasn't one lady who was exempt, that was monthly. I said, so there's half of the changes that have been out there. Lots of them. I mean, for the females and for the minority workers.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Is there any aspect of your work at Hanford or living in the Tri-Cities that we haven't talked about yet that you think is important to talk about?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Well, I tell people from all over--I have relatives all over--and I tell them the best place in the world to live is in the Tri-Cities. And I've been around a few places. And you could buy a house here. Like you go down and you see a house for $250,000. And a house, let's say in parts of California, who is probably as large as this place here. [LAUGHTER] It maybe cost that much money. Me personally, I will never leave here. I will stay here for the rest of my living days. I love to go and visit. But I always tell people, if I'm driving back from California, when I get up on the hill over there and I can see the lights, that's, [SIGH] "I'm home." [LAUGHTER] Yep, it's a beautiful place. Beautiful place.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Well, I don't think I have any more questions. But I do want to thank you for coming in today—</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: Hey, my pleasure.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: --and sharing your experiences. I appreciate it.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: My pleasure.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bauman: Thanks a lot.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniels: You bet.</p>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
30:04
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
195 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
300 Area
Building 703
Building 3706
Building 325
Building 100F
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1951-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
ca.1966-2006
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
E. M. McGee
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Edmon Daniels
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Edmon Daniels conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-11-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-05-19: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)--Social conditions.
200 Area
300 Area
Building 100F
Building 325
Building 3706
Building 703
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fef770d057cbd7fcd5e879acb0e88b207.jpg
4163a90a24db7d167a6eaea91a7561ee
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F607e136b0c77f3d9db0c55df91e50740.mp4
9f34d5ceebf274acb1217462d6100458
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bauman, Robert.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Copeland, Harold.
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:49:48
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
602 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
N Reactor
Plutonium Finishing Plant
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
3000 Area
T Plant
184 steam power plants
1100 Building
100 Area
184 Building
Dash-5 Building
221-T
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1947-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1947-1987
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Windchimer, WW
Hall, Lee
Hill, Verne
Lettingham, Jay
Copeland, RW
Galloway, Elijah
Chein, Yao
Madison, Web
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX243576330">
<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Copeland_Harold</span></span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, we can go ahead and get started with the interview.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Harold Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Sure.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So first I'm going to have you say your name and then spell it also.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yes. I am Harold Copeland, Harold Curtis Copeland, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">H</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-A-R-O-L-D C-U-R-T-I-S C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">All </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">right. And my name’s Robert Bau</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">man and today is August 6, of 2013. And we're conducting oral history</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And so we're going to be talking about your</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">experiences working in the Hanford site. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me first, how you came to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Hanford, when you got here, any first impressions of the place, any of that.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">My wife and I came here from Denver, Colorado in October 1947. I was working for the Bureau of Reclamation.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They were decentralizing their main office, sending people to all the field offices. General Electric came in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">recruiting and they had received word of this decentralization, looking for engineers.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So there were a number of us that thought that's a good opportunity, so we came out here, 1947. We're driving</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">our little three-window Ford Coupe and towing my Harley motorcycle on back. And the first impression of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Richland was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> pretty grim. We came into town and all we saw were these flat-topped, prefab houses. They didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have their peak roofs yet. And there was dust in the road and not hardly any trees.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But we came here. General Electric said there's a job for five years. Well, for the first four or five years, we kept</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">thinking</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, when do we go back to Colorado?</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I grew up in Colorado. See, it's a neat place in Fort Collins and I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">graduated from CSU there, so naturally, it was like home.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But after five years, we began to like this place. We had the Colu</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">mbia River, the Yakima River, ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">d the Blue</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Mountains, the Cascades, and the ocean, and fishing in the ocean not too far away. So we made it our home for</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">all these years.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And when you</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and your wife</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> first came, what sort of housing did you live in first?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They were </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">building houses rapidly. The A and B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> houses, a lot of those were up and people living in them and prefabs,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">as I mentioned. Our first few months, we were living with Lee Hall and his son, 700 Sanford, in a two-bedroom</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">prefab. And a wife and I got the small bedroom.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">She was pregnant when we got here. December 7, the Pearl Harbor Day, but in 1947, our first daughter was born</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and there was pretty cramped conditions with the baby beside the bed and then a two-bedroom prefab, well, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">crying at night. She had not gotten used to sleeping at night.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But Lee Hall said he had one bad ear. He says, put her out in the living room and let her cry out there. I'll just turn</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">my good ear down and I won't hear her. So we did and the crying session and nothing happened from it. Finally</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> got the message </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to Dian</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e that she was supposed to sleep at night, so that was nice.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And Lee Hall was so glad to have a woman in the house to do cooking and do furniture. She did curtains and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">changing paint and putting a woman's touch on</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the house like women can do that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> men don't have any idea about.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, she did that and he was very pleased to have us with us, but they were building the pre-cut houses. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">get in along about in the '48, it was probably in March or April, the pre-cut houses were ready to be occupied. We</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">move</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">d to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> two-bedroom pre-cut. Lee</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Hall was most depressed and dej</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ected because we were leaving and taking all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">his good drapes away.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So we lived at 700 Sanford for several years until about, I think it was </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">1973, our second child was born. S</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">o on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">housing list, we were eligible for a bigger house, a three bedroom. We were in a two bedroom.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It so happened I was working with the engineer, Verne Hill was his</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> name. And he lived out on Atkins. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd he said,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they had a housing list. Big </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">board behind the glass, a housing </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">list was posted. You'd go down and apply for housing</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that became available. Verne told me his next door neighbor was moving, so I applied for that house before it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">posted, see? So I was first on the list of eligibility for the house and we got the house at 209 Atkins because of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Verne.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> And it—they were well-built houses, number one </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">grade lumber, and it's been a very durable and good place to live over the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">years.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Where was this housing list that you mentioned? Where was that?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They had sort of a housing department located in the vicinit</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">y, very close to where the Rich</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">land Police</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Department is, acro</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ss the street from the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding would be. But they would post this housing list and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">people that were eligible to move would go in and apply.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And how would you describe the town of </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at the time in the late '40s and early '50s? What kind of place</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was it to live?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Very safe place. Good schools. Good housing. No crime. Everybody that worked at Hanford had had their</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">background checks. They wouldn't hire any criminals or</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> background violators. So we could</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> leave our cars unlocked,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">we could leave our doors unlocked, and it was a very safe place. The main thing was security for the plant.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The plant operation security was very, very strict then, but living conditions were very good. They had 700</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">420</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Wright Street. We rented the house. $38 a month. It's a two-bedroom pre-cut called a U house. And the electricity</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was furnished, the water, the sewer. They even give you grass seed to plant your lawn, and if you had some</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">maintenance to be done in the house, call them up and they'd come and fix it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The wind blew a lot. There were no ranch houses at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that time. And the wind came—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they started building the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ranch houses. The soil was all very fluffy and stirred up and we would get one of those terminator winds as they</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were called, the way they would blow dirt into our yard. And there was a terminator wind and there was probably</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">three to four inches of sand blew into our front yard.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The way they took care of it was the fire department came out with their tanker trucks and hoses and hosed this</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">off of our lawns. They also learned, they gave you the plant seed, but they only gave you enough seed for just</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">about one quarter of your lawn at a time. When you get it going, then they give you seed for the next section.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Trying to water it and keep it growing, the whole thing they learned, was too much for the residents. So it was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">very safe, good place to live.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Do you remember any community events, any special events sort of things in the community during that time?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Community events, the one that comes to mind, there were probably some but I can't think </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was the boat races</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd it was called the Atomic Cup, which nowadays is not politically correct. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">call it the Columbia River, then it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was the Atomic Cup for several years. And it used to be a nice place to go and watch the boats, but recent years,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they're so crowded and unruly people that I don't have any reason to go down there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Let's talk about your work in Hanford then. What was the first job that you had when you first came to Hanford in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">1947?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, my degree is in mechanical engineering and that's what I was doing in Denver with the Bureau of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Reclamation. They came out here and I had an engineering job in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I think they call it the 1100 Building</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> It was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">a single story Army barracks type of building. It </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">location of, I would say where the parking lot is now</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">on</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the lower side of the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding. That was its location.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And so I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> worked there until I got my Q</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> clearance and then I was sent to 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea after I got the clearance. After</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, they were in search of instrument engineers. No college courses taught instrumentation.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> The one up in Yaki</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ma was teaching good technicians and the one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at Milwaukee had good technicians, but no</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">engineering.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, I'd been in the Navy and my training in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Navy was with electronics gear:</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> radio, transmitter, receiver,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">sonar, LORAN, and there might have been something else. So I had a lot of this electronic training and I had one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">semester of electrical engineering at Colorado State.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So I transferred over to instrument engineering and </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">shortly after I got to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea and followed that through all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">my time there as an instrument engineer.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So what sorts of duties did you have </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">then? What sorts of things might</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> you do on a typical work day?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, I would work with the instrument technicians, help them with their work. If they needed new parts, I would go</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">write purchase orders. If some of the instruments were getting old and wearing out and needed total replacement,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I would write orders</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> for those and oversee the installation and help the craftsmen, the instrument techs with calibration.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">There's one funny story that </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">just can't forget. Most of my work, some, not all, but most of my works in the 184</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">steam power plants, which provided the steam for emergency use during outages</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd this took place at the N</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Reactor,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the 184. And he was an instrument specialist. And he was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">what do you call them? The steward. He</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was the instrument steward for their craft, Jay </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Lettingham</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And we'd gotten all these new </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Foxborough</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> D</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">P cells in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that we were installing to replace some other instruments</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that were obsolete. There's a much, much better system and we were in this little instrument shop in the 184</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding and I was reading the manual and he was trying to turn the screws and nuts to get it calibrated. And he</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">tried and it didn't work and he tried and it didn't work.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And then what he did,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> well,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> he said, here, you take these tools. And so I did it and showed him how to do it. He being a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">steward, see, I wasn't supposed to pick up a tool or touch one, but he had me do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I thought that was a real</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">amusing situation, but we got along. We worked as a team.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And how long did you work at the N Reactor then?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, N reactor from about 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">probably '66 to '87. I retired in 1987. But my first work was assigned in the 200</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reas. And I was fortunate. One day, I got in on the startup of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">234-5, which they now call the P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lutonium</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Finishing P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lant, but in those days you're probably aware that they named the plants and the facilities in a name that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">did not relate at all to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> what they did. See? Plutonium Finishing P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lant would have been giving away a secret, so it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was 234-5.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Everybody referred to it as the Dash-</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">5 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I was there on the construction and startup of 234-5, mainly working on heating and </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ventilation. Had three big air</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> supply</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> filters and washers and fans for the building and it was a real tough ventilation because there were three</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">separate pressure </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">zones. The office zones were the higher pressure and the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">n there was an intermediate zone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd the zone where the hoods and the work was done was the lowest pressure so that all contamination wouldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">flow from the work area to the shops and clean areas. And it was very difficult to get those pressures to be stable</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and maintained.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got in on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">construction and startup of REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> plant. And then I also got in on the construction and startup of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">P</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">UREX. Now, part of the PUREX</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> work, I had an of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">fice under Webster in the 3000 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, North </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, where we</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were working on design work and approving drawings and specifying the type of instruments to be procured. Then</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got to go out to the field and saw them being installed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And I worked for Copeland, R</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">W</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Copeland. That was a coincidence. No relation that I know of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> but he was a good</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">guy to work for. He was, I think, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Blaw</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Knox Construction, if I remember right, that he was in charge of all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the construction there. So I got well acquainted with a lot of welders and pipe fitters and electricians</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">everybody worked together. It was a very cooperative effort in those days.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Your first job was with GE, right?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">General Electric, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And then what other contractors did you work with?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, it was, I think about 1964. GE's contract was running out. They chose not to want to extend it and so United</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Nuclear came in and took</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> over the contract for the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reas and I think Westinghouse had a contract. There</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">everal contractors for the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, so Uniroyal and couple others. I don't remember the name, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">anyway, Un</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ited Nuclear took over the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, so I worked for them and retired for them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And the plant was down in 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I got my neat belt buckle. 20 years, 1964 to 1984. So the plant went down in 1984,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">but I retired in 1987. The neat thing I remember doing there, our maintenance work could only be done when the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reactor was down. The reactor running was producing plutonium and steam for the steam plant. That was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">money earner, so the downtime was kept at a minimum.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">When it went down for good and we thought that it was always going to restart, we went in and replaced a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">tubing and instruments, valves with upgraded material, upgraded design. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> we thought—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I believe that that plant was in</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">better condition, had better equipment than when it first started up a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd we always had that hope that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">we didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have any doubt at </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that time--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that it was going to start up again and that all this good stuff in it was really going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">run good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But then because of the Chernobyl incident, the politicians shut it down. It didn't make a scientific and engineering</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">gradual shut down, which would have saved a lot of money in handling n</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uclear fuel and processing it. But t</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hey shut</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">her down because of Chernobyl.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> And I'm not a real good </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nuclear ph</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ysicist, but they think it's a two</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> factor or an n factor. You'd have to talk to a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nuc</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lear person. But it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> designed in this N Reactor so that it would not run away and meld itself like the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Chernobyl plant did. It was impossible, but the politicians didn't know that.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Obviously, security, secrecy were a big part of the Hanford site. Can you talk at all about how that part of it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">impacted your work at all in any way or any interesting stories about security?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Some of the security men would hang out in restaurants or bars. I never experienced this or saw it happen, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I've heard about it. And if the customers in there talked anything between themselves or anyone else about</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">anything, the work they were doing or what was going on out there, they were out the door. And most people</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">knew that and obeyed it very, very strictly.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">For a long time, my </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">wife and my daughter, see, they didn't know what I did out there. I couldn't tell them. I'd go to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">work in the morning and come back in the evening and ride the bus. So it was that tight</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd another fun</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ny</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> story, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">kids in school were talking about what </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">does your daddy do out there? </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Of course, they didn't know. And they'd say, my daddy is making toilet paper. He brings it home and his lunchbox.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It was one of the answers that the kid tha</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t didn't know what's going on w</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">as doing because, I guess toilet paper at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the times</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was not readily available</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> but there </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was still always lots of it out</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> at the plant.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">JFK, President Kennedy came to visit.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">What's that?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: President Kennedy came in 1963--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> dedicate</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the N Reactor [INAUDIBLE]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> came</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. What are your memories of that day?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He dedicated the reactor. Well, I was working that day and didn't see it, but my wife and daughter went out and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">got to watch Kennedy designate. He moved the radioactive wand over the receiver and the motorized shovel, big,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">earth-moving shovel, scooped the first scoop of dirt out there, so the way I heard about it, he started it up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Were there any events that sort of stand out in mind from the years working? Any unusual happenings or strange</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">occurrences, sort of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> when you were working out at Hanford at that time</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> or funny stories?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: Yeah, I think </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that was very amusing. The instrument techs who I worked with, all of them were a bunch of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">good guys. They would play jokes. They had subtle humor and played jokes on people, harmless type of things,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nothing to harm. This occurred in the 221-T, the s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">eparations building in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">rea, 200 West.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And I'd often go over there early in the day, see the instrument foreman, what he was going to assign to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">technicians and what was going on, what was to be done that day so that if it involved something that I needed to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">know, I would be there to hear about it. And one time, we had these ring balanc</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e instruments, we called them pe</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> draggers. They had little pe</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ns. They would make a mark on a round chart, a moving chart and they were a very</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">small pen with ink in them and made a very small line.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And we were having this, I guess, a safety meeting was finished a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> we were talking to this</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they had a secretary.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The instrument foreman had a secretary. I think she was Eleanor, but I'm not sure. Well, one of the guys rigged</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> up one of these ink pens, held it about waist height</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and he had a squeeze bulb with water in it and he squeezed it</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">right at Eleanor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So she became all wet on her front side there and everyone was smiling and giggling and she didn't know what</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was going on until she looked.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> You couldn't see the stream it was so fine, see? It was a fine stream. I thought that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was funny! </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Another one in the same building, at quitting time, the guys </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that have their lunch buckets se</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t on the workbench and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">when the bell rang, it was time to go rush out and get on the bus and go home. So this one guy, he was especially</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">quick at grabbing his bucket and getting out so he could get a seat on the bus that he wanted.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, we had a lot of lead bricks. They're the sam</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e size as red bricks that we have</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. This was a lead brick. They put</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">it in his lunch bucket and he came along and grabbed this lunch bucket and all he got was the handle on the top</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">part.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> That was a funny one.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I wonder what you see as were some of the more challenging aspects of working at Hanford were and what were</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">some of the most rewarding</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> parts about working at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Challenging and rewarding. Well, the challenging</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and to a certain respect of keeping the secrecy of the plant, one</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">of the challenging things was the dust storms called the terminators. And the rewarding thing, I think, was the men</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that I got to work with. They were all good guys, cooperative, pulling together. There was no territorial protection.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">If somebody knew something that the other guy didn't know, he would share it. That was very rewarding to me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">There were different technical problems that I was faced with during the time, which we were able to take care of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and never had any bad accidents.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And you were there for </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">40 years--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Copeland: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I imagine you must have seen some changes take place.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Many.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Either technological changes, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">or </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">instruments. I wonder if there were any changes t</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hat you saw that you thought were </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">important?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yeah, there were a lot of changes. The older instruments in the power houses were</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">can't remember them. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> they ran on a five</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> to 25 psi signal. Then we got these newer </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Foxborough</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> i</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nstruments and then they were three </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to 15</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">psi. And before I left, they were going to forward a 20 milliamp electrical instruments and controls.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And the computer age was just getting started when I retired. And they would allow computer measurements</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">was in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reas by then, of course—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nstruments, they would measure pressure temperature and position,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">could be done with computers, but the control the people had, the men, the operators had to maintain control.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They allowed no computer control of the reactor. That was a lim</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">it at that time, but that's gotten</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> past that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> present</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> day. B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ut we had computer programs on the old IBM cards, punch cards, that punched the little square holes, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">there was a giant c</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">omputer in the basement of the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">uilding. There was a Boeing computer facility and all</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the cards went down there to be processed and problems and answers, solutions work out from that. That was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">just the beginning of that age that I just got in </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">on the start of it, but not any</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">more.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: The site, of course, at some</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> point, shifted from focus on production to focus on cleanup. I wonder if that shift</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">impacted your work at all, the sorts of things you </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">did?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yeah. Well, to back up a little bit more, at one time, we had nine reactors up and down the river operating. And N</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Reactor was a first one in the country and maybe in the world that produced power. It was one of the first power</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">reactors</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> of which there are quite a few of them now. So that was a neat thing, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">give me your question again.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, I was asking about the shift from production to cleanup.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">To cleanup. I got in on a little of that before I started working at N reactor, the other BDF and DN</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">DR we</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">re all being</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">shut down and I worked for Wind Chimer, WW Wind Chimer. We were on</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I was probably for about a year--helping with some of the cleanup on that and our motto, our mission was, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">drain and dry the piping and store the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">mercury. That was our mission that we were doing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">The other groups were doing other things, but I know that we were tending to that for the shutdown. And at that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">time, it was shut down, not that we were not involved in the cleanup yet.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But the shutting down of some of the reactors.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">M</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: I wonder if you could—so</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> in a sense, overall your experience workin</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">g at Hanford for those 40 years--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">What about the overall?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Yeah, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hat's your overall assessment of your 40 years working at Hanford? What are your thoughts about</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, very proud. Very positive. I'm proud that I was able to work out there and support the Cold War effort. My first</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">job out of college was with Fairbanks Morse, Beloit, Wisconsin where they made the diesel engines for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">submarines, the OP, opposed piston engi</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ne. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So I got to help with the war effort. Then I got the letter from my draft board that said, greetings, you are a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">selected volunteer, so that's when I got into the Navy. So I got into the Navy parts and then</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, as</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I told you I didn't have</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to get shot at, but I was working during the war time, then out here for the Cold War. So I had those three parts of</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">my life, I think, contributing to the growth and the safety of our nation.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I want to ask you about your running.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, yes.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">At some point, you got involved in running. When was that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> and how did that get started?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Elijah</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Galloway. Dear, dear friend who’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> gone now. He was the Brown Shoe Air Force, that's </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Army Air Corps.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Before</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the Air Force—the present day </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Air Force was formed, the Air Corps was a part of the Army. He said I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">part of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Brown Shoe Air Corps. So he flew</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> missions and did things, but one of the jobs where he got started</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">running was CIA, Russia.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Both he and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> his wife got trained. They had</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> probably most of a year of training in Russian and how to conduct</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">themselves as observers, but really getting spy information, but they were just </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">called observers over in Russia</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And then he participated in all the Russian parties. They had lots of caviar and vodka and pretty soon he was</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">overweight. And his doctor, when he went to Germany for a checkup or leave, he said, you need to lose weight.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So he encouraged him to start a running program, which he did</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd he lost weight and he lost weight and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">whenever he would go out on one of these surveillance programs, he'd just go out walking, then he got to running.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He'd count the number of insulators on the power pool, just simple stuff that he could observe while he was out,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">then there was always a Russian counterpart that was with him and following him. He was a runner. And pretty</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">soon, Elijah got so good he could run out and leave this guy.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And so one time, the story he told me, he went out for his run with his counterpart, Russian guy, and he finished</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">his run and then he told the Russian guy, well, let's go out and run your course. Now, I want to run your course.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He was too tired to do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He was a specialist on antennas, jamming and communication, that was his specialty in his work. He had an</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">electrical engineering degree and antennas was his thing. And so he was involved in a lot of that communication</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and jamming for the US over ther</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e. The one amusing thing that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was taught to his wife. The Russians would</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have a big parade. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">They would have these big wheel movers with the missiles on them and they'd have a big</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">parade celebrating how great we are.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And Elijah and his wife,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Beryl, would have their trench </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">coats on and </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">have their Leica cameras down at waist</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> high,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">just barely pointing out between the buttons. And they would take pictures and just the time they'd click, they'd go,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [COUGH].</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> And there were always Russians around spying on them. If they heard a camera click, well, then bad news for</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">them. But they</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> could cover this up with [COUGH].</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Just cover it up the click of the camera. That was one of the neat</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">stories</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> he told me.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But from his experience with losing weight, he retired and his home was in San Antonio, Texas. And he couldn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">stand being retired</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">nd he'd gone to school with Paul Venter, a name that I mentioned. I think it was probably a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t Whi</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">tworth. I'm not positive, but he knew Paul and he kept in touch over the years and Elijah didn't like being retired</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and he had this electrical degree and Paul says, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hy don't you come up to Hanford?</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> There's some jobs here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Elijah came up here, got a job. He was my office partner and I think I already told you part of it, that he and Jerry</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">and I, in my office one day, Elijah said, let's go out on our noon break and go for a little run. Because it had meant</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">so much to him and he felt so much better getting down to a trim weight that he wanted to influence other people</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to enjoy that sam</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">e feeling and the euphoria—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the endorphins get into your body when you're running to where</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">you just feel like you're just going and can go forever. Of course, you can't, but you have that wonderful, elevated</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">feeling.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He wanted to share that with everybody and I wanted to share it with other people too that I have run across in my</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">running years. So that was Elijah. It was about 1972 that this happened and I started running and within a year</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">later, I ran my first marathon.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">He coached me on how to train for a marathon. It feels good, but don't keep going further than</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> you know,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">increasing not more than 10% or a few miles each day. Hold a very strict schedule of gradual training and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">conditioning. Because if you do try and get too much, you get injured, disappointed, then you quit running. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">has happened, so one thing that he taught me and another people. And so we ran</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> the old</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> Cheney Marathon up at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Cheney, Washington.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And that Cheney Marathon only lasted, I think, about three years and they discontinued it. But the neat thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> I still</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">hold the first place for 50 age division at the Cheney Marathon. No one came along later and beat my record</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">because the marathon was stopped.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> A lot of oth</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">er marathons, why, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">someone e</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lse comes along when they turn </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">60 and they beat my record.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">That's how I got start</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ed running and I'm </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> advocate of—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">f not running, I swim or bike or kayak, whatever suit</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> your</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">fancy, whatever you feel good doing, do it, but keep doing something.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Sounds like you were</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> running pretty regularly at your last time period working at Hanford.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Pretty regular. My routine for many years</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> was up at 4:30. Do my toilet</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ing, strap on my shorts and shoes, out</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the door at 5:00. I'd run 7 miles in an hour and I was back to the house and Evelyn would have breakfast. I'd quick</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">shower and get breakfast and then I'd catch the bus at 6:30, about a two-block walk from my house, catching the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">bus.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> That was my routine, seven</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> miles </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">every weekday morning and then six</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> miles at noon with the guys at N Reactor. So I</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">got 13 miles a day, weekdays. Saturday was the long run day. Do 20 or 22 miles. You have to have some long</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">distance training to train your body to learn to burn fat when you run out of glycogen.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And the person I did that most with was my dear Chin</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ese running friend, Yao Ming </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">“</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Chee-</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">”</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> We would meet</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Saturday and run our 20 to 22 miles. Sunday was a rest day, so I'd ride my bike about 15 miles. That's a different</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> exercise. It rested your</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> running muscles.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Bu</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">t </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Che</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">in</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, I remember, he would, at one of our wedding anniversary parties, Yao Ming and is wife were there and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">I was introducing him and he says, </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, E before I. He says I before E and everything except </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">, C-H-E-I-N.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It wasn't C-H-I-N as Chin, but he was </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span class="SpellingError SCX243576330">Chein</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. That made a difference to him.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So he's still around. He lives over in Bellevue. I talk to him every once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> while. We formed a—a </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">lot of marathoners, you form a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">bonding, a marathon bonding with these people that you run 26 miles with and you look for them and wonder how</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">they are and if they're not at the next marathon, you wonder if they're ill or accident or anything happened. It's a</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">bond that, it's hard to describe, but it's there.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Is there any things that I haven't asked you about in terms of your working at Hanford that you think is important to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">talk about and would like to talk about that you haven't talked about so far?</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">There's one </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">more funny</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> that I didn't incl</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">ude. We were working at the PUREX </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">plant, 200 </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">East</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. And this instrument</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">specialist, Web Madison was his name, he</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">to back up a bit, they needed instrument technicians that could find</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">work and work on instruments.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So they were looking for watchmakers, all search the country. Watchmakers would qualify. They knew how to do</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">fine, delicate work. Well, there were a lot of watchmakers out there because there was no training for them early</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">on except, later they had the Yakima, forget the name of it, instrument school and the one in Milwaukee.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">But Web had tooth problem, teeth all decayed. So he had upper and lo</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">wer plates, all new plates. Had </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">them</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> built</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">by the dentist, you know, nice. And then the one thing that I'm leading up to, if an instrument needed a part and</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">you couldn't buy it, they could make it and they could build parts that were broken and replace th</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">em,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> they</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">were so good.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">So Web got his new teeth and he looked at them real close. He built himself a set of stainless steel teeth, a whole</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">set of stainless steel teeth. And one night when he come off shift and through the badge house, the guard always</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">looked at you and looked at your badge and he'd know who you are and he knew who he was. They checked him</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">out. But he flashed those stainless steel teeth at the guard and the guard just about fell over. It was a riot.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Another thing they did, they were practical jokers. Another thing they did there to the going off shift, I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">observe this, but I heard about it. An instrument tech, they were getting ready to go off shift and they called up at</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">the badge house and said, we're going to flush the phone lines. And we want you to unhook your phone, take</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">your phone off and just hold it while we flush the lines.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">And so he did that and they took some air nozzle and made some noises. It sounded like flushing noise</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">. And then</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">he went up to check out to catch the bus and they really ribbed that guard. What in the world are you doing on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">phone.</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Oh, they had him put it in the basket. They had him put it in the wastebasket. What are you doing in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">wastebasket? Practical jokes like that. There are so many of them </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">that—</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">so</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> good to think about.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories and experiences. I appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">It was my pleasure. I am hopeful and I'm sure that what you're doing will be very educational and important to</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">your students over the coming years. So I want to thank you for doing this work.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">Well, I'm glad to be a part of it. Thanks again.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX243576330"><span class="TextRun SCX243576330"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Copeland</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">M</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX243576330">-hm.</span><span class="EOP SCX243576330"> </span></p>
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harold Copeland
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Copeland was an instrument engineer on the Hanford Site from 1947-1987. <br /><br />An interview with Harold Copeland conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Nuclear instruments & methods
Nuclear weapons--History.
Nuclear weapons industry
Nuclear weapons industry--United States--Employees.
Nuclear weapons plants
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-04-22: Metadata v1 created - DMO
2016-07-08: Metadata v1 created -[J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
8/6/2013
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
1100 Building
184 Building
184 steam power plants
200 Area
221-T
3000 Area
Cheney (Wash.)
Chernobyl Nuclear Accident
Dash-5 Building
General Electric
Hanford Site (Wash.)
N Reactor
Nuclear waste disposal
Plutonium Finishing Plant
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)
Running
Secrecy
T Plant
United Nuclear Corporation
United States. Bureau of Reclamation
-
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690baf02cd982d16be454fa61515735b
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fada0dbf6496cc12da553f06e46e92b9e.mp4
59164a7708c88cbb1d22ef43bc311024
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Laura Arata
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Edwin Cheyney
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Cheyney_Ed</strong></p>
<p>Laura Arata: Plus, if you make him mad, he's got a cane now he can smack you with.</p>
<p>Ed Cheyney: Well I got one I’m not doing with.</p>
<p>Arata: Nice.</p>
<p>Man: I guess it just--</p>
<p>Arata: That would be our first on camera cane dueling.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Right. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Man: Okay, whenever you're ready.</p>
<p>Arata: Okay, we’re ready to go. All right. So if we could start out by having you say your name, and then spell it for us?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Sure. My name is Edwin Cheyney. C-H-E-Y-N-E-Y. It's also been pronounced chee-nee, with the extra Y in it. I was corrected many years ago that you're pronouncing it wrong. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Really? So you learned about it, too?</p>
<p>Cheyney: I said, I didn't care, as long as it didn't get any worse.</p>
<p>Arata: Fair enough. My name's Laura Arata. Today is November 12, 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start off by just having you tell me a little bit about when you came to Hanford, and what that first experience of coming to Hanford was like, and why you initially came here.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Okay, well, first of all, at that time, I was going to Spokane Technical and Vocational School, which is now Spokane Community College. And basically, the only way you could get out of class time is to go interview. Well, I was on—it’s three and a half years, and so, I was on the, actually, the last few months of my course. And this guy says, hey, let's get a carpool going, and go down to Hanford. Well, where's that? And he says, well, they're looking for employees. I think it was 13 at that time, for a special program with General Electric. So we get down there, and the first thing, and we got here early, at seven o'clock promptly. We were all escorted back into a room that had separate booths, and we were given time tests from seven o'clock till 12 noon. We were tested on about every kind of conceivable test that I could imagine, but it all related to my field of electronics and instrumentation. So anyway, it was about two weeks later. The ones that were in the carpool with me said they already got their rejection notice. And my teacher--I wasn't one of his favorite ones--and he just says, came to me, and says, well, you'll get yours. And I said, well, I'm sure I will. A month later, I get a call from my grandmother. I was living in Spokane and taking care of two of her apartment houses. And she says, you've got a registered letter. So I went to my teacher, and I said, I need to take my grandmother to the bank. He said, I've never heard of that one before. [LAUGHTER] So he let me go, and I got there, and I had a registered letter from General Electric. I really got excited. And it says, offered me a job. And I went back to the school. I plopped it down to the teacher, and says, well, there, I got my letter. He says, so what? And just turned his head. So, well, that's fine. At least I got proof. And I went to my two other instructors from previous years. They stopped everything. He said, look it. He's the only one out of the whole school's that's been offered a job down in Hanford. I still didn't know what I was getting into. [LAUGHTER] But I figured it was worth it. And we had to agree to the fact to go to three and half years more to CBC to special programs that GE selected. And that was no problem either. And then we worked only an eight hour shift, except on weekends, we could work overtime if that case came up. So basically, that's how I got in the front door. And it's sort of interesting that when I first came down here, my mother wanted to make sure that I got in a decent environment because I'd never cooked or anything. And so, GE, they'd recommended the best place where most go is the Statler Hotel. Well, I thought, well, let's go there. Well, we went in there, and my mother, of course, with me. When she saw the three gals there wearing mini-skirts and the whole thing, she almost ripped my arm off, says this isn't the place for you. I didn't see any problem with it, but she immediately took me up to the parish house, and says, is there somewhere decent that I could live? And she introduced us to this woman that was very motherly, very heavy set, very good cook. And said she'd board and room me. Well, of course, I got out on the project. There was lots and lots of indoctrinations that this is classified work, and you're not to discuss anything whatsoever. And the home then I was staying in, her husband was one of the managers out at D Reactor. And so first thing, he asked me, he says, what do you do out there? I says, I just work out there. He says, I know you can't describe anything, but he says, you can at least say your title. You're not getting yourself in trouble with that. I says, well, are you sure? He says, I wouldn't put you on the spot. And I says, I'm an instrument and control technician. And so, he didn't push me any further. And the one thing, before I left the neighborhood of Spokane, the FBI was checking up on me. And I had neighbors say, what kind of trouble are you in anyway? And I says, what do you mean trouble? And they says, the FBI was out checking on you. And I go, that's great. He says, what's great about it? I says, I think they're interested in me. [LAUGHTER] So that's basically how I got in the front door. And I started in the 300 Area, basically the canning lines. And with GE, you were only in a spot roughly three months to six months, and they rotated you because they wanted you to get the full feel of the different expectations that they had of you, and the way you could handle your so-called position, as far as instrument control calibration of all kinds of instrumentation, which, to me, I found really exciting because it was a new challenge. There was never, seemed like there was never a day that it wasn't something different. And I like that. And the challenges were quite different. And riding that bus for a nickel a day. You couldn't afford to drive anywhere. The only thing is, those buses didn't have air conditioning or anything. And when it started, when they moved me to the K Reactor--first it was B, C Reactors. When you had 100 degree weather, it was no fun after a shift, getting on the bus about 4 o'clock. It's good and hot and everything. About all you could do is just sit there and bear it. I usually just closed my eyes, and just figured, well, I'll get home pretty quick. And I just figured, well, it's good for a common cause. Also at that time, the salary was real good for someone that was just out of a tech school. My dad had a master's degree, was teaching five solid subjects, and the superintendent of schools at Hogan, Montana. And the first year, because I was living with the landlady's, their home, she also made use of me, and took me to grocery stores to help her carry stuff. And she took me to Zale’s and talked me into buying a men's diamond ring, which that's the last thing in the world I was really interested in, but I got talked into it. Well, I go up to see my dad, and he sees that. And he says, is that real? And I says, of course, it's real. But I says, it was stupid that I bought it. And I took it off, and said, you can have it. And he said, well, what kind of money are you making? At that point in time, I had made a little over $2,500 more than he'd made. And that really changed his whole attitude about tech school because when I graduated from school, I had to be in his classes, and I took lots of insults. And when he asked me when I graduated, what are you going to do? I says, I'm not sure yet. And then, when I told him I was going to tech school, he says, you just will be a grease monkey. Well, that changed his whole attitude, that maybe--He says, I just can't see why and how they can pay you that kind of money. I says, Dad, they pay you for what you can do with your hands, too. And from then on, he had a whole different feel about it. So that's getting off of what I was doing in Hanford. But going to the different sites, like I said, the challenges were always different. And I think the thing that really impressed me the most is the feeling of the power and energy that was going on. And especially when I was given the tour to go, first, up to the water treatment plant. That was massive enough. I was told could easily take care of the whole city of Los Angeles. And they showed me a wet well, and in it was all these lights with no insulation or anything. And they're on. I says, how come they don't short out? He says, in pure water, there's no conduction. And the mass of water that was going down through the pumps, and through the reactor core itself, the ground just vibrated. I'd say it was at least a good two city blocks, if not longer. You just feel the rumbling. And it's just a massive power. And you go in the reactor area, you just hear all this rushed water. Another thing that was impressive, you look outdoors at this big million gallon tanks of boiling water coming right off the reactor. It could be 100 degrees outdoors, and it had a 200 foot plume at least. And it really made me think, especially in later years when you start realizing what all is going on. It was a graphite core reactor, the same kind of reactor that Chernobyl had. They were foolish in what they were doing. They weren't using nuclear engineers or physicists, and doing all kinds of dangerous experiments. But they reminded me that when I went in to watch, and a lot of times we referred to it, we're controlling a nuclear bomb. And when the operations, especially at operations, they start pulling rods, waiting for things to go critical, it got real exciting, real quiet. And they had two to three guys watching everything, all the instrumentation to see when things were starting to go critical. And it just really amazed me how smart they were, and how careful they were in their operations. And at the same token, it made you well aware that we're really controlling something really massive. And later, roughly, I'd say about every six months or so, they rotated you. They moved me to the K Reactors. Now those were the two world's largest producing plutonium reactors. And that was even more exciting. And of course, a whole lot bigger, and a whole lot more things going on. And eventually, I don't know if it was because of my interest, or my attitude or what, they gave me the opportunity to go into the irradiation testing group, which was a whole lot more involvement. And that was going into, I won't go into a whole lot of detail. They were putting, I'll say samples, into the core of the reactor during operation for different tests for Atomic International, NASA, and there was a few others. But they had a lot of instrumentation, monitoring, and analyzing what's going on. Of course, because being rotated around, actually, what happened then was I just became journeyman, and General Electric announced that they're phasing out. That was a real scary thing for the simple fact they were laying off thousands of people, not hundreds. And being that I was on their special training program, they had an agreement with the union, only take a certain percentage of us to lay off. And go off, like, they lay off 2,000 workers, they might take three or four of us. But when it got down to the last two weeks at General Electric, I was down into the last group. Now when they put me on that status, then they immediately transferred me out of the K Reactors down to the canning lines. And that's where they actually had, oh, what do I want to say, molten metal for sealing the canisters for the fuel for the reactor. And so, when you knew when you were down there that you were on your way out--Well, on Friday, the last Friday of the second week of GE, I got my lay-off notice. Well, this probably about does it, but I put in my name. I thought, well, I want to stay nuclear. I put in my name for the nuclear bomb testing down in Nevada. I immediately got results back. We'd like to hire you, and the only thing is, they're offering me basically the same salary, but I had to move myself. And I thought, well, to heck with that. The following Monday, so I got a notice on Friday, the following Monday, my supervisor comes to me, and he says, how would you like to work for Douglas United Nuclear? I says, I'd love to work for Douglas United Nuclear. He says, well, you'd be doing the same thing you're doing. And so, tear up your lay-off notice. So I stayed with Douglas United Nuclear. And not to go into a whole lot of details of the same thing, it wasn't long they announced shutting down more reactors. The handwriting was on the wall. You aren't going to be here very long. And so, I put my name in with Battelle Northwest, and I put my name with KEPR TV station, because at school I had earned a commercial FCC license, so I could go that way. I thought, all right. I'll get out of government. I'll go into this. Well, it was on a Thursday night. I got called by both Battelle and by KEPR. And I said, well, I wanted to—to Battelle, I told them I wanted to just check into this one job first. Well, it turned out real quick that that didn't have anywhere near what to offer that Battelle. So I went to Battelle. It was through Battelle, then, I got into a whole lot more avenues of the nuclear field. And they moved me everywhere where they felt that they wanted me or needed me. I worked--first, they were going to move me out in the areas, or that's what they promised me, and the first day on the job, they put me in the 300 Area again in the fabrications department. Well, Battelle's in everything. And the next thing, I was assigned on an engineer. He basically gave you a schematic, or a drawing, of what he wanted, and you had to from there, get everything you need, put it together, wire it up, test it, and turn it over to the engineer. Well, that was really exciting because it was a whole different challenge, including making your own printed circuit boards, which I'd never done. Basically, it's a photographic process, and I've always been interested in that. And so, it wasn't long—they wanted, the engineering department then wanted me, and moved me down to the sand castle. And of course though, when they have a contract that ends, so does the job. But in the meantime, they had the computer lab at the sand castle for the FFTF mock up. And I guess, my understanding was the first time they ever had analog digital computers working together to simulate FFTF. That went great until Governor Dixy Lee Ray came down and removed that job, that responsibility from Battelle. Well, I got moved out into the 300 Area again, and different labs, and HTLTR, PRTR, and all the different ones. But again, every one of them was exciting. Every one was a different challenge. Well, in the meantime, there's a gentleman that got hurt at home. And he worked out at the 200 Areas, and that was top secret work. And so that required having more checks on me. And then when you were approved, you had a blue tag on your badge. The only thing that I really feel comfortable disclosing was the fact that, again, it was really exciting. The big thing was that they assigned you to specific cells only. And no one had the same cells, and no one was-- basically, I was told because this way, you'll never try to put things together. You just do your job, and mind your own business. And that's fine with me. And then, as soon as this gentleman was able to come back to work, then I was put on with, they asked me if I'd like to work at the weather station. That's out at the 200 Areas also. That, I was to work on the telemetry stations. I thought that's really neat because it had weather stations at a 65 mile radius that I traveled every day, checking stations, and setting them up for monitoring radiation, temperature, wind speed, and et cetera. And the only thing is, it was a great adventure, watching, or being at the different areas. And that's when it came to my light, I didn't realize that during the time I was out in the 100 Areas, I don't know when because I never saw it, that they had Nike missile sites. And where that refreshed my memory is when I was out a K Areas one night, on graveyard shift, and I was with a gentleman. And we were outside, and we had just got through with, they had stack flow monitors to see what kind of effluents are going through, to make sure we're staying within limits. And he says, you know, it was really sort of funny. One night, he wouldn't say who, and I can see why, inflated a big air balloon, a weather balloon, and tied a flashlight to it, and set it up. Well, after it went up so far, next thing, a big—I think two military jets came flying over to see what the heck that was flying in the air. So some people had ways of—no one wanted to be identified on that one because they did have missile sites. I found that one out on my weather stations out at the Wahluke Slopes, but they pretty well destroyed everything. And I thought this was really, really, was pretty well covered and protected. Which thank God it was, but we weren't aware of that stuff. So it was full of excitement. And I never knew what I was going to be stuck with the next day. The only thing is, like with Battelle, and that's while I was doing the weather stations, I was watching--one of the sites I had was right out on the Hanford site, and it was right out there where they were starting up Whoops, and they were digging this massive, massive hole in the ground. And we had to set up a weather station there. And so I got really interested in that, and basically, I thought, you know, I've always wanted to see something like this being built from the ground up. So I put my name in there, and three months later I was hired in, and spent the last 27 and a half years there. But that's basically in a nutshell what I was involved with. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Sounds like you were involved in a lot of different jobs, and I wonder--you mentioned that you worked at B, C, and K Reactors. So I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about what maybe some of your different jobs there were. Whatever you're comfortable with.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Oh, sure. Well, especially in the B, C Reactor Areas, like I say, while I was going to school, you weren't allowed any overtime. But on weekends, you were. Another interesting thing when you're back home, if they wanted you, like, for a reactor goes down, they call you up, you say yes, they send a person out in a car. They pick you up, and take you out there, and they also bring you back home. Some of those jobs, I actually was out at the plant for two days at a time. But one of them, like in the B, C Reactor, especially now that we can go visit and everything, it brought back the recollection of the reactor had gone down, and they were doing repair of thermocouples. That's temperature measurement. And you had to go to the rear face of that reactor in a wetsuit, and, of course, PCs under that, and go in there, and go behind where those tubes are, pull out this little two conductor wire, and take and cut it, splice it, and basically bond it together, and then solder it there. And here you've got water's dripping from 100 feet up. You're trying to heat this thing up enough to make it bond. And then call the control. Now are they getting an indication? And then, of course, you'd have to re-insert it back down into the well it was in. That was one of the things I'll never forget because it was so dark back there and everything. You did not want to be claustrophobic. You could easily touch the back of the wall with your back, and you'd have the tubes in front of you. Of course, the interesting thing there is before anyone ever goes in there after a shutdown, they discharge all those tubes down into 15 feet of water, and you see all this blue going down there below you. That never bothered me either, other than thank God, it's down 15 feet under water. Well, in the K Reactors--the B Reactor, I just had a lot of general routines of, like in the powerhouse, there's all kinds of instrumentation for controlling those big boilers. Of course, that was coal fired. And the water treatment facilities, measuring the pH of the water, and the chemistry that goes into it. And then K Reactors, I got to go in. Now they were putting in the high speed scanning system for measuring temperature. And instead of using thermocouples, they used RTDs. And they were going into, I think it was about the second year I was at K Reactors, that again, they shut down to replace all those. Well, again, I get called, I come out there. It's at midnight. I'm well over 100 feet up in the air running these thermal bulbs down through in between the tubes while there's another guy riding the elevator down to the point of what tube it was to be installed into. And it was sort of relaxing up there. It was interesting, but it just seemed like forever. Another incident—of course, as soon as you finish your college requirements that they put on, I was immediately put on D shift. And it just--I didn't like shift because it was one day a week, swings, days, and graveyards on a continuous cycle. I was with the technician this one day. We were up in full operation at this point in time, but they were wanting to check—they were having problems. And so, he and I were assigned to go into the control room. They had—I won't give the exact number; I'll say there was well over 3,000 pressure gauges called panel gauges. They're monitoring the pressure of the water of the tube itself, and that's 3,000 plus. And this panel, you're in the control room, you hear all this click, click, click, click. And they're all moving. If anything, if any one of them goes over pressure or under pressure, immediately, it dumps that whole complete plant. Everything comes through a massive—you hear lots of equipment slamming shut, and the control rods drop. Well, anyway, I guess I was still considered a trainee at that time. We had to change out one of those little pressure gauges. Behind the panel, it's all full of tubing and wiring. They're all in series with each other, so that means if any one's interrupted, it dumps everything. So to get around that, to replace a gauge, you had to take, you had jumpers. So you put a jumper, and you jumper off that gauge. And then when you're all ready to try to dismantle, and pull it out and put another one, you pull the jumpers out of it. Well, the gentleman that was taking me through this, showing me and telling me how careful, as soon as he pulled the one jumper, boom. The plant went down. [LAUGHTER] Oh no. I don't know what color I turned, but I know that he says, oh no. He went out, he says, we did it, we did it. They says, hold on. They had to check it. And it turned out it was something else, but it happened at the same time that we pulled that jumper. So there was times that it made you plenty nervous because you don't make anyone happy if you dump the plant. You don't get fired, but the embarrassment of it—you try to take a lot more pride in it than that. And so, that's basically, sort of in a nutshell the B, C Reactors. It's really interesting to go out there and look at it now. I certainly encourage anyone that has the opportunity. It brings back a lot of memories. The biggest thing I remember is you go in the control room there, the first one that they let off. You go in the control room there, it looks like a little dinky space. It didn't seem that dinky to me then. But if you go into the K Reactors, it looks like a gymnasium compared to that, as far as the size of the control room and the equipment that was there. So a lot to compare it with, but the things that just always impressed me was you could feel from the tremor of the grounds and everything, that there was massive power. And it had to be to generate that much heat, and have that much steam coming out of those millions of gallons—I don't know exactly what. The only thing that disturbed me, and I questioned it at the time, riding the bus, going past the 200 East Area, a lot of times, the winds would bring down that brownish plume. And it'd come right in the bus, and your nose would burn. And I'd say, isn't that bad for you? Why is it on a big stack, and it's coming down here? Oh, nothing to worry about. Well, thank God, I don't think I ever got anything from it. There was a lot of things that went on that you could question, but you probably wouldn't get much for an answer. In fact, when I—I get bounced around on things—when I was doing the weather system for them, in the winter time, we were given snowmobiles because we did Rattlesnake Mountain, and the whole bit. And so they had their own trailer with the snowmobiles. Well, I had to go into the Two West Area, and immediately, this one guard, he must have been new. He says, pull over there, and don't go anywhere. Well, this is new. And he comes up, he says, sir, I hate to tell you this, but you can't be bringing your recreational vehicles in here. I said, sir, would you mind reading what's on those snowmobiles, and read what's on the trailer? It says property of the Atomic Energy Commission. He looks at it. He thought it was crazy. He says, well, I'm sorry. [LAUGHTER] So you're all the time being tested. But in general, I always considered it probably one of the greatest experiences. I'm really thankful to the good Lord that I worked 44 and a half years. I'm not trying to brag, but I was never unemployed. They kept me plenty busy.</p>
<p>Arata: It sounds like it. It sounds like you had many different jobs.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, with instrumentation and monitoring everything under the sun, temperature, pressure, level, et cetera. Even one, that reminded me—not to go on and on and on—but in the 300 Area, while I was down there, they sent me to the so-called bursting facilities. And I thought, now what the heck's that? Well, we'll find out. And I go there, and they had these different cells, and they had high pressure systems. And they take different materials of piping, and they hook up all these apparatuses on both ends. And they put it in a cell, and put on all kinds of monitoring equipment to test pressure, temperature, et cetera. And what they do, when they get ready to test, you get out of there, you go back in the control room, and they run up until that pipe virtually breaks open. And again, for studies. But they had a lot of studies going on before they ever used a lot of material. So it was, like I say, always exciting. I enjoyed it, but you never knew what you were going to be assigned with. And it seemed like they didn't mind sending me around.</p>
<p>Arata: Sounds like it. I wonder if I could have you talk just a little bit about starting in the '60s, and then having this great 44-year career unhampered. Certainly, the technology changed a great deal in that time. Could you talk a little bit about what sorts of technology changes you encountered working there?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, sure. It's sort of interesting. When they first put me out in the 300 Area, of course, I was assigned with different technicians almost every day. And anyway, this one technician—and you've could sense when right off the bat, well, you're a fresh one from out of school, so you probably don't know much or anything. And I was given this elderly gentleman, and he takes me to his own little shop area he had. As a matter of fact, it happened to be where the bursting facilities was, and he says, what do you know about recorders? I says, well, I was thinking of electronic recorders, a magnetic tape type recorder. I says, well, if you're talking about magnetic tape recorders, I says, I think I know quite a bit about them. What do you got? He says, well, what do you know about recorders? What do you know about L&N recorder? And I says, not a thing! Can you show me what you're talking about? He brings out this great, big, heavy, old chunk of iron. It's an L&N recorder. It has a galvanometer movement in it. I knew what that was. But I thought, what do you with that piece of junk? I'd use it for a boat anchor. [LAUGHTER] But I didn't say that because I knew it would disrupt him a lot. He says, do you know how to calibrate—or wind your own resistors for the bridge that it requires for it? I says, no. You give me a formula, and I'll work it out. He said, great. So he gives me what values he wanted. Okay. So then he hands me this spool and this wire. He says, all right, make your own resistor. I said, what is this? [LAUGHTER] He says, you've got to make your own resistor. So I kept going down on wire until I got exactly the resistance, cut it off, then I had to treat it and the whole thing. I just followed along with him. And I make these several spools of resistors, and put it in. And then he had me taking, apply a signal to see where the galvanometer would move, and the whole thing. I thought, now just how antiquated can this get? [LAUGHTER] He didn't like it too well or anything, but I thought, I could learn something from everybody. And it was really interesting because as I got out into the K Reactors, well, now they had all, at this time--that time--they had vacuum tube amplifiers. And yes, they had their own bridge circuits and stuff, but you didn't go winding your own resistors or anything. In fact, it all came from the factory pre-certified and et cetera. And so, I saw a big change there in the counting type equipment, and the measuring of temperature. Things changed tremendously. Now in the pneumatic end, that's air-driven instruments, which I never really was fond of. I liked electronics. It was a lot faster. Air-driven, even though that is very accurate for monitoring pressure, and the whole thing, is very slow. You make a move. You wait. Electronics, it's right there. And that was a big change I've seen. And of course, as they got—especially like that K Reactor—so much more massive and everything, they had to be a lot more sophisticated. And so, I could see one heck of a change. And poor old B Reactor was about as old-fashioned as you could get. But it amazes me how they handled the whole thing from the ground up, and we didn't have any major catastrophe. They did have at K Reactors—and I didn't realize the possible danger I was in—they did have where the core did catch on fire. And at least with the monitoring equipment they had, it was where they could respond fast enough to start changing control rods. But it took them a while to get that out. But at least it wasn't like Chernobyl. Chernobyl, they had no chance. In fact, we had videos of--and I'm jumping clear into--where we were shown videos. The fact that when they cut off all the safety systems, they apparently had no knowledge of how fast, when a chain reaction starts, how fast could it be when it goes critical. Because it totally blew everything up, and that's with a graphite core. And unfortunately, people think that, like Energy Northwest out there, that has water as a moderator. There's no graphite whatsoever, a whole different thing. And graphite does burn. And the sad thing is, understand, I've heard that there wasn't a single person that was around Chernobyl that was trying to save the area that is alive today. At least, thank God, we do have a lot more safety concerns. But I don't know if I've totally answered what you're looking for, between the difference, but it was a massive difference. Of course, then when I went over to Energy Northwest, the equipment, as far as recorders, they didn't even have vacuum tubes. Everything's solid state. Pretty much, the current state of the art, or even making changes to be more current, to the more current methods. So it always gave you a different challenge. But I like the changes. And I learned real quick. No matter who, you learn from everyone. And I know my first supervisor, he was sort of like a dad, and he'd, after about two weeks there, he called me in. And he says, I see that you were really raised strict. I says, why do you say that? He says, you don't let anyone disturb you, but you don't come back with any smart aleck remarks. I says, everyone's got something to offer, good or bad. I says, I'm not here for that. I'm here to learn, and I'm here to carry out what you want me to carry out. It was always exciting. And I have no regrets. In fact, most thought that I would never even quit. I quit when I was 66. I figured, well, maybe I should take time out to enjoy life. And I'm glad that I did. I don't miss it. I never tried to think about retirement, or play it into my mind until, I think it was about--well, the last day, I even went out, worked regular assignments until the last four hours. And then, finally, my boss says, well, come on in. There's no use to go any further. And I thought, well, now I can lay everything down, and walk out that gate, and I won't feel like I'm in a pen. [LAUGHTER] It was a great experience.</p>
<p>Arata: It sounds like it. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the K Reactor shut down. And I understand there was some talk of maybe starting it back up, and that ultimately didn't happen. Since you worked there--</p>
<p>Cheyney: Right. Well, I heard mostly about that, of course, when I was away from there. And I thought, it was really, really a disappointment. It was really sad. In fact, I think it was pretty much getting into that process when I was down at Battelle. And they were doing some tests out there, and I got to go with an engineer. He wanted me to go out there and help with some equipment. And going in there, everything's stone cold. Everything's stone quiet. Such a massive structure doing absolutely nothing. I thought, what a waste. And what are they going to do? Like I said, I didn't hear a whole lot about it, but it came and really hit home when I went in there, and they're worried about rodents and everything else. That isn't the reactor that I saw. And the excitement that was behind it has just, all is dead. And going back through some of the corridors, and into one of the areas they were experimenting with, just hardly could see around. They had some test equipment. I didn't question exactly what are they monitoring. I'm sure a lot they're looking for, is there any possible contamination concerns or anything? But speaking of contamination concerns, it's just like when any of those reactors had what they call a rupture. That's where a fuel element breaks open, and the material’s going out into that water stream. And what they do is they immediately divert it to, they had a big open area, a pit area where all that high contaminated water went into. And guess what's out there in the winter time? Ducks are swimming in that hot water. And I thought, I wouldn't eat anything around here. [LAUGHTER] But I think there's quite a bit that substantiates all that. In fact, Battelle's doing a lot of research in animals and stuff, and even the materials that they've, the feces material and everything is, like, up in the 5R range, which you wouldn't even want to be near that. And I thought, they've got a lot to learn out there of studying the habitat around there, but I wouldn't want to eat anything. [LAUGHTER] Again, I'm off on another subject. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: That's okay. So overall, I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about any aspects of your work that you found the most challenging, and sort of the most rewarding. Or just overall, how Hanford was as a place to work during the time you were there.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, during the time I was there, as far as—I was really impressed with General Electric. They always gave me a feeling of a positive attitude. Also, a very strong feeling that you don't talk about your exact work because it's for the security of the country. And at the same token, I think where it became more rewarding and more relaxing to me is actually when I went to work out at, at that time, Whoops. And at that time, seeing all of the things that go into making a plant, you learn to respect things different. When I went to terminate from Battelle, they says, why in the heck do you want to go there? They're never going to ever operate. I says, well, I'm young enough yet. I want to see what I can learn out of it, and if it don't work--They says, if it don't work, come back here, we'll give you a job. I thought, I bet you will. [LAUGHTER] But I think maybe they were sincere, but I found it really rewarding there. I got involved with--and I never dreamt that I would—is working with robots, going into highly radioactive zones to do monitoring, and to observe what's going on, like steam leaks or anything. So you're not putting anyone in any danger. Out of that, I was surprised, I got an award from, I can't think of the name right now, from the company that was behind it. It was back east, and they sent a plaque awarding me that I contributed to something that basically made things safer, that didn't expose man to. And yet, I found it really exciting because I've always been excited about cameras, and this was working with cameras and with remote control of a little robot. And I made quite a few improvements, and so, I considered maybe that was one of the highlights. It was rewarding. I wasn't expecting anything. I just enjoyed that they let me go on it. And I also worked—I wore two hats in the last years at Energy Northwest, in that I volunteered because they couldn't get anyone else that would go there to write procedures. There was five originally that volunteered, and we all five took on the challenge. And inside of a couple months, it was down to two of us. It ended up, it was down—it was basically myself. And the main reason is, is because you're writing the instructions for that technician to go out and perform a function. If that causes anything like dump the plant, or any kind of danger, you go before the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and you may be serving time. Well, to protect myself, I always went before engineering, and discussed, and made them put their name on the dotted line with me that, yes, this is right. This is the only way to go about it, or the best way to go about it. And it was rewarding to me from the standpoint that if they needed an extra hand, they'd pull me right off of that, and I was back out on the plant. So I got away from it, just continuing. Like I say, the challenges seemed to never end. And I really, for a while, thought, I don't know, maybe I won't quit. They always teased me that I would be there when they shut the lights out. Well, I'm glad I didn't because getting away from it, as I get older, different medical issues. But I'm still blessed with the fact that I can get around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Arata: Mm-hm. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about, that we haven't had a chance to hear you talk about that you'd like to share? Any other humorous incidents? Or just anything that stands out in your mind from that time?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, it wasn't a humorous incident, but one thing that GE pointed out, well, I guess it was an incident as far as, and of course, it was to teach everybody a lesson, is this one gentleman saw this real neat tool in his eyes. So he decided he'd take it home with him. It turns out it was a contaminated piece of equipment. And so, when they detected that it was missing, all they had to do was they got out their radiation monitors. They had an approximate idea. They could go right to his doorstep. And they went in, and they cut out chunks out of his carpet. Everywhere he'd been in his house, they were cutting out samples. And so I think it was a lesson well learnt. Keep your hands off of it. [LAUGHTER] In a way, I thought it was sort of funny. It's not really funny, though. But taking that kind of, obviously, carelessness, at least it really hit home. It isn't worth it.</p>
<p>Arata: All right. So I wanted to ask you, for general purposes, most of my students were born after the Cold War. They don't remember this time. So what would you like, sort of, that generation or future generations to know about working in Hanford, as this very important aspect of America's place in the Cold War, and winning the Cold War?</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, I think the main thing is, the big thing is, I'm just trying to figure out how to put it. You shouldn't be afraid of nuclear. If you really know all the facts behind it, and all of the precautions behind it, it is one heck of a rewarding career. And it is something that I think I'm probably a whole lot healthier, and a whole lot that I know that have never had anything to do with nuclear, and yet, my whole life, basically, has been out there. And it definitely is rewarding in regards to the financial side. Well, I can relate it to my older son, when he was graduating, I says, well, what are you going to do? Because I'd never heard him discuss anything. He says, I'm going to be an instrument tech. I said, where'd you get that idea? [LAUGHTER] And he says, well, I want to do what you did, and I want to make the money you've made. And he went to Perry Tech, and he did real well. And I even, through my supervision, of course, was instrumental, and got him on a few outages out here. But he went on down to the only place where you got a permanent job. But again, instrumentation, the same, similar type of equipment for different purposes down at SCH, where it was making silicon wafers for all these integrated circuits. All the latest technology, it's a Japanese firm. They're very stern, very strict. Well, he had the most seniority and everything there, I think it was 12 and a half years. When it came to lay off and cutbacks, because they're very competitive, he was one of the first ones to let go. Now to try to find work, well, he's been able to get on to outages all throughout the country. So, even though he's had nothing there, right now he's in Raleigh, North Carolina. A month ago, he was down in Florida. And he's getting to see country that I haven't seen, and there's a lot of adventures yet, but he's still dealing with nuclear. It’s definitely, it's nothing to be afraid of; it's something to respect. And I'd say it definitely has a lot of opportunity if a person really wants to make the good money. I know, like I say, it's what you can do with your hands. Of course, you have to use your head too, but there's opportunity that you can really do well.</p>
<p>Arata: I want to thank you very much for coming in, and sharing your memories with us. We really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Cheyney: Well, I hope I've contributed something that's--I enjoy talking about what I can talk about it. It's left me with memories I'll never forget. And I thank you for the opportunity.</p>
<p>Arata: Well, we are very happy to have you. I love your description of standing behind B Reactor, and looking down in those kind of cool, glowing--</p>
Location
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Washington State University - Tri Cities
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00:50:00
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203 kbps
Hanford Sites
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D Reactor
K Reactor
300 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
200 Area
100 Area
Names Mentioned
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Ray, Dixie Lee
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Title
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Interview with Edwin Cheyney
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An interview with Edwin Cheyney conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
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2013-11-12
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2016-05-30: Metadata v1 created – [RG]
Subject
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Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
B Reactor
C Reactor
D Reactor
FBI
General Electric
K Reactor
Secrecy
WOOPS (Washington Public Power Supply System)
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9d72ff516906fcb85e78925a8663e892
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0472090f713e05ebf58314e205876e9a.mp4
218d716c6219eb2bb404d57fdee92c83
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Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Bush
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Bush_Bob</span></span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: I’m going to have you start just by saying your name, first.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bush</span>: Okay, my name is Bob Bush.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: My name is Robert Bauman,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> and we're conducting this interview with Robert, or Bob, Bush on July 17 of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">2013. And we're having this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford site.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And so I'd like to start just by having you talk about how and when you arrived at Hanford. What brought you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">here?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">O</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">kay</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. During World War II, I was overseas. My parents were in the area, both of them working. My brother was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">also </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">here in Pasco High School. When I came home from the service to Southern Idaho, Korean War</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">broke out. Wages were frozen, and so I was looking to better myself. And I applied by mail. I was interviewed by</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">telephone. And I came up here in 1951</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> to the accounting department, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">General Electric Company.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">They were the sole contractor.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And for 15 years, in construction and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> engineering accounting, which wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s separate from plant operations at that time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And from there, my accounting career followed it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s path through several successive</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> contractors. From GE to ITT,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Atlantic Richfield, to Rockwell, and finally with Westinghouse. When I retired, I was with Westinghouse for one</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">month.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">You said your parents were here duri</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ng the war. When did they come out?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">It was '43. 1943 and '44, my mother worked for the orig</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">inal</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> postmaster of Richland, Ed </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Pedd</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">icord</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And my</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">dad was a carpenter. Built some of the first government houses called the Letter Homes. They were here about</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">two years, I think. And then they went back to Idaho, I believe.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. And what part of Idaho?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Twin Falls, Idaho. Where I graduated from high school.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. What were your first impressions upon arriving in the Tri-Cities?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">That's kind of interesting, Bob. Because I came up ahead of my wife and two</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">year-and-a-half old</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> three-and-a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">half-year-old sons. About two weeks ahead of them. And so I fou</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nd a Liberty trailers to rent—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">he housing was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nonexistent. And I found a Liberty trailer, which means it had no running water, no bathroom. It was like a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">camping trailer, basically.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I sent for them. A brother-in-law who had graduated from high school went directly into the Korean War. He drove</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">them up as far as Huntington. I went on a bus to Huntington and met them, came back. And as we came onto the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Umatilla side, and I said, that's Washington. Well, there was no green and everybody was disappointed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat's the first impression. I mean, there wasn't a bridge over the river in Umatilla. It was a ferry. So you drove</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">around the horn at </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Wallula</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Things were just really different.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> said you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> had a trailer. Where was--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">In Pasco on a front yard of an old pioneer home, where Lewis Street crosses 10th. That was the end on Lewis</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Street at 10th. And from there west was called Indiana. And there was about t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hree homes on there. And it just quit</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And roughly across from the present day Pasco School Administration Building, which was a Sears building.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Across the street there was where this home was. I mean, things have just</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—in the whole area—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">have changed so</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">much.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And how long did you live there then?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Until I was called for housing in Richland, which was six months. That was in June, no air conditioning. And finally</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">got into an apartment building, a one-bedroom before with two little boys that slept in the same crib. It was still,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">basically, wartime conditions. Weren't any appliances for sale and you had to stand in line to get a </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">refrigerator.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> It</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">was a different world. But we were young, so we could take it.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> was this in Richland then, the apartment?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">No, that was in Pasco. After that trailer, that was only about two weeks. And then we want into </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">his apartment, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">one-bedroom. Then we moved next do</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">or to a two-bedroom in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> five-</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">plex</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. And then in December, six months</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">later, I got the first</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I got a housing call from the housing office in Richland, which sat where the present day</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">police station </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">sits. And the lady offered me—s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">he said, you could have it Saturd</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ay. It was a prefab. It had already been worn</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">and pulled out. And I kind of hesitated. I said, I've already got something in Pasco. Well, she said, I could let you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">have a brand new apartment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> That apartment was brand new. It was s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">o clean. My wife, who was very fastidious, she</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">didn't even have to clean cupboards.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And the apartments hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e now been torn down by Kadlec</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> for that newest building. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nd in fact, this morning I just </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">went by and took a picture of Goethals</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Street, which is vacated. And it was quite a pleasant</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> move to come out </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of a trailer into—a non-</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">air-conditioned cinder block building apartment into a nic</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e, brand new apartment with air </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">conditioning, full basement, and close to work.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And at that time, my office was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> downtown in the so-called 700 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea, which is basicall</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">y where the F</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ederal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding is</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">where the Bank of America is was th</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e police station. And that's Knight</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Street, I believe. From there </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">north to Swift, and from Jadwin west to Stevens where the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Tastee</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Fr</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">eeze was, that was the 700 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">confines. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Probably about 22 buildings in there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The original thing prior to computers, everything was manual bookkeeping or ac</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">counting with ledgers. And they </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">came out with a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">McBee</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Keysort</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> cards, and it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> was called electronic data processing. It was sp</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">aghetti wire with </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">holes in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">boards, that</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> type of thing. That building had to be a special airlock b</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding. And that's the Spencer </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Kenne</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">y Building beside the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Gesa</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Building. That building is built especially to house equipment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And they just went from there. And I moved around my office. And after 15 years, I went into what they call</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">operations. I was onsite services, which—did</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> that for 17 years. And that was probably the better part</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">second better job that I had, I guess. The transp</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ortation and everything, on</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">site support services. The whole</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">point</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">That job took me all over the plant. I established inventories. I took some of the fi</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rst inventories of construction </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">workers' supplies and tools and shop equipment, rolling stock. My name was </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">M</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ud. They thought so much of me </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they gave me a desk in the corner of a big lunchroom.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So you did work at various places then?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yes. Well, yes. My very first location was in North Richland, then called North R</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ichland Camp, where the bus lot </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the maintenance shops. I'm trying to establish a point</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> up there—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat's over there today?</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There's a big sand dune on your left going by the automotive shops, past the bus lot, where the bus lot was.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Opposite that sand dune on the other side of Stevens was a bunch of one-story </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">temporar</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">y buildings. That was </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">North Richland Camp. And that's where my first accounting job was there for two or three years.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> I had been there—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I came there in June. And in January of </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">'52, had 22 people along </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in my department </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">that I </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">worked in. I was a junior clerk at that time. Took me four years to get onto the m</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">anagement roles, but I did. But </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">anyhow, in that room they came in there six months later. After I'd only been he</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">re six months, AEC, predecessor </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">to the OA.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> The AEC has taken over more </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">management, more responsibility. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> we're going to be laying off a </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">lot of people. I had only been here six months.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And so others grabbed straws and went different places. I always said either I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> too ignorant or lucky, I don't </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">know what. But I just sat still and it panned out for the better. I didn't get laid off.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> I moved from there. But I went </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">downtown to the 703 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding, which stood where the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding is now.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There's a building to the rear that the city owns called 703. That was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> fourth wing. 703 was the frame </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">construction, the three floors. And the later years, they added a fourth wing out </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of block building. Made it more </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">permanent. That's why it's still standing today.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Now, that was my second location. And then I got on the management role </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in '55, which meant I went </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">exempt and no more pay for overtime. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nt out to White Bluffs site—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">tow</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">n</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> site, and that's where the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">minor construction was located. Minor construction, it's the construction people that are spe</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">cially trained in SWP, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">radiological construction work</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> as opposed to run-of-the-mill construction.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And they're the ones that had never had any accounting at all for any equipment, supplies, materials or otherwise.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And that's where I had the lunchroom office experience.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">It so happened that they established</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I brought an inventory procedure and establis</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hed that first inventory during </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">a strike. We had to cut government-owned tool boxes. But still, the workers though</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">t they were private. And we had </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">to cut locks in order to take inventory.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And then</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> we feared for our lives when they came back. Pretty rough day sometimes.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">What timeframe would that have been you were out?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">That was 1955 to '56. A couple of years there, and then another person took over from there and I w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ent into </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">budgeting at that point, from accounting to budgeting. And I did that for</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">until 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">63. And then I moved out to the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">so-called bus lot, which it was. 105 buses and all that. And I was out there for 17 ple</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">asant years, budgeting, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">billing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rate—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Because we were the supplier of all plant services. So we had billing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> rates to the reactors, and the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">separations, and the fuel prep, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">whoever. The AEC, everything. We billed t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hem, just as </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">if we were like plumbing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> jobs.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And that I enjoyed. That was probably my most productive period. And from similar</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> work to that, I moved over—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Let’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> see, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">was around when the Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding was built, but I didn't get into it. That was built </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in '69. I didn't get down there </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">until 1980. Went down there a couple of years. And then they moved us out t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">o Hanford Square where Battelle </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Boulevard intersection is.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And I was there</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I retired from that location in 1977. My wife and I retired the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">same week. I've been retired 26 </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">years now at the end of this month.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Was your wife working at the Hanford Site as well?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">She worked after the kids were grown, like most stay-at-home moms do. She s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">tayed until the daughter was of </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">age, and then she went to work for a credit union, which was the government</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> credit union, which was merged </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">later on with </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Gesa</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> But that was an interesting job. They worked two hours a </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">day, three days a week. Because </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">it was all hand done, no mechanization.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And then she got a job offer from the department in the central stores and pu</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rchasing department. She worked </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">there eight years. In 1986, the income tax law changed a lot of things for all of us, e</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ffective in 1987. It meant that </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">partial vesting was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">IRS has to rule on all things like that. And that meant t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat if you had 10 years to vest </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">pensions, once you pass the 50% point, whatever the vesting period is, then you we</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">re partially vested. And so she </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">had 8 years out of 10. So she got 80%. But she had only worked eight y</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ears, so it wasn't a very large </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">accumulation.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Because I got my full. Of course, I'd been here 37 years I think it was, however that works out. 36.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I want to go back and ask you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—when </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">you were talking earlier about that period in '55, '</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">56 when you were working out at </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">White Bluffs</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> town site</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. You ment</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ioned radiological construction?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Oh, that—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hose construction workers worked under what they called SWP, Special Work Permit, which meant radiological.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">They ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">d to wear</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the clothing was ca</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">lled SWP clothing then. Today, they call it </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">something else. But they worked </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">under those conditions, so therefore they were subject to different rules.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Whereas, construction wo</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rkers on brand new construction weren’t then—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they didn't have any of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> that to contend with. But once </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">a plant went operational, it became radiologically SWP. This is not an anti-union thin</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">g. It's just a demonstration of </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">how things were in those days.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">They had some old buses that</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the original buses in town were called Green Hor</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nets. And they were small. They </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">had chrome bars that went right across the middle of your back. And for 35 miles, that was not very comfortable.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">When they got the newer buses that you see today, like Greyhound has for instance, they relegated those to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">construction workers at White Bluff</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. Well, since GE guys worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> at White Bluff</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">, we had to ride those, too.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So all the office workers in the warehouse</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">GE employees rode one bus. The elec</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">tricians rode another bus. Pipe </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">fitters rode another bus, even though there were only two or three of them. It was really a segmented-type thing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">As close to anything radiological that I came to when I conducting one of those physical inventor</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ies—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e would be </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">out</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">all of the construction materials were stored outdoors on the ground. I </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">mean, like stainless steel. 308 </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">stainless steel was pretty high-priced stuff. But the sheets were stored outside</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> on pallets. Well, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ne sheet is worth </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">thousands and thousands of dollars.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So we had to lay down on the ground and count the sheets to do the inventory. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">his one day—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">h</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e only time I came close to any </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">contamination, we went back and boarded the buses that evening from White Blu</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ffs. And we saw the guys on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">dock there chipping with a chisel and hammer. That meant they were chipping out</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> flakes of contamination. So we </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">asked what was going </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">on. They said, well, we're next </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">door to F and H A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">reas.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And F A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea had coughed out something they said. And so I said, well, my crew was outside today on the ground.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And if the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> coughed out because all the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">some construction workers could drive their cars. That's the only people.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Plant operations people all had to ride buses. No parking lots.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So anyhow, those cars were all impounded. Had tape around them. They co</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uldn't go home. And some of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">guys, they had to take off their shoes, leave them, and be issued safety shoes in lieu of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And I said, well, we were on the ground, too. So they proceeded to take us all off the bus and surveyed us with</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> a </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">wand. And they only found a few flakes on our back. And so we were allowed to go</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> home. But that's as close as I </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ever came to getting contaminated. It's still scary.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yeah. Obviously, Hanford, a site where security was prominent--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Very tight security, yeah. I was telling the young lady here that across the road</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">way on Stevens, as you near the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea, there was a real wide barricade, probably eight lane</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> that you had t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">o go through. And everybody had </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">to stop, including buses. And the guard would get on the bus, walk down the aisle, and check every badge.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And at that time, AEC had their own security airplanes. That was the purpose of t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">he Richland Airport was for AEC </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">security in th</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e begi</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nning. They had a couple Piper C</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ub-</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">type airplanes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And one day we're on a bus going out to work in the morning. And all of a sudden, a plane just zoomed on by.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Somebody had run the barricade. The plane goes out, lands in front of them, stop</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s them, and that's how they got </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">apprehended.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Another i</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ncident of security, yeah, that's the subject? </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Many y</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ears later now, after 1963, and </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I'm in the transportation assignment. Airspace was off limits to all airplanes ove</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">r Hanford because they had army </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">artillery guarding it in the Cold War and all that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And a private plane had violated the space. And the AEC planes had forced it do</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">wn. And once they're down, they </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">can't ever take off. So after a week or so, they sent a lowboy trailer out there, l</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">oaded the small airplane on it, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">proceeded to come down what's the highway and now Stevens. And down where S</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">teven</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s today, 240 and all that </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">intersection is, there wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s only two lanes on the road then, not six. But at that junct</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ure there, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">there was a blinking </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">light. And they had to turn right to go to the Richland Airport.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And this guy, the truck driver pulling this low-boy, he had never pulled an airplane </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">before. And he didn't allow for </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">that pull. Well, that blinking light clipped off a wing. And then he got time off. It was not </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">really his fault, that pilot in </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the beginning. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But there's a lot of—I guess full of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> interesting stories like that on security.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Great. Did you have special security clearance to work at Hanford at the time?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Which?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Any special security clearance?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Oh, yeah. I had Q clearance, which there's one higher than that</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> that's top secret. But</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Q clearance meant you </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">could go into any and all areas. And because the nature of my job, I had that my whole time I was out there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Once you have it, they would tend not to take it away from you because it's quite ex</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">pensive investigation to get it </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in the first place. I might mention something interesting in that regard.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">When I first came to work in 1951,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> why,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> the PSQ is Personnel Security Questionnaire. And it's about 25 pages long.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And you had to memorize it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> because every five years, you had to update it. Well any</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">how, I filled that out, and you </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">give references.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And I have, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in the Twin Falls area, a farmer that had been a neighbor farmer in Nebraska, where I was born</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> to my</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">parents. I gave him as a reference because he had known me all my life. And that would be higher points.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">About a year or two later</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I guess probably a year later I had gone back down to Twin Falls to visit the in-laws</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> I went and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> saw this farmer, family friend. The first thing he said to me, Bobby, what in the world did you do?</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> The FBI had</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">come out to his farm and piled on the questions. And I hadn't told him ahead of time I'd given a reference. So they</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">really did very, very tight security. It's probably tighter than it was when I was in the Air Corps.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">You mentioned riding a bus out to work.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yeah, everybody rode it, except those few construction workers in that minor construction area. They were</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">permitted their cars. I don't know why, but no one else drove cars on the plant. Everybody rode on the bus.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The bus fa</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">re</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of course, it was subsidized. It was a plant operation, like anything else is. To make the liability</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">insurance legal, they charged a nickel each way on the bus, which later on got changed to a dollar or something.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But many of the years, we'd ride the bus 30, 35, or 40 miles to work for a nickel. The nickel was just to make it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">legal.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">From those old green buses, they came up with some</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I forget what they're called. More like Greyhound buses.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And then in 1963, the year I went out to the transportation, they bought a fleet of </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span class="SpellingError SCX194300000">Flxibles</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. And that's F-L-X.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There's no E in it. That's the same kind of flat-nosed bus that the bus lines used today. And they were coaches,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">not buses. They had storage underneath. And so we had quite a suggestion system on the plant. And you would</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">get monetary award or mention. And somebody said, well, instead of running mail carrier cars delivering mail to all</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the stops on the whole plant, load the mail onto the now available storage bins on these buses. And that was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">pretty good suggestion award, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">monetarily</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> to somebody.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And they did that. Took it out to a central mail station out there, and then dispatched it.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">You mentioned different contractor</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s you worked for over the years--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Uh-huh.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The story behind that for the record is that General Elec</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">well, DuPont built the plant. That's who my dad worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">for. And GE came in '46, I believe. And they were here until the group I was in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> phased out in groups. I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the last group to go out. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">[COUGH] </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Excuse me, in 196</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">'66.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">When the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">GE phased out, they had a dollar a year contract. Like Henry Kaiser and rest of them did during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">war, for the good of the country. But they trained an awful lot of people in the infancy field of nuclear engineering.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">General Electric trained all those people here and then they opened up the turnkey operations in San Jose and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Japan. But anyhow, AEC was still AEC at that point. And then, their wise decision</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">instead of one contractor, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">would have nine. And so there were</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the reactors was one. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Separation plant was another. Fuel </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">preparation</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">at 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea was another. The laboratories, which is today basically Battelle. Site services. The company doctors</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">formed a foundation called Hanford Environmental Health Foundation, which is the MDs that gave the annual</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">exams.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And the computer end</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">, it was now getting into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> infancy of t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> computer sciences corp</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">, we had the first</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">contracts on that. So all together, there were nine contractors. And the portion that I was with went to ITT. They</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">bid, came in and bid</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. I helped conduct tours of the facility for the bidders. Because I knew all about it and knew the ins</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">and outs on some of the monetary parts that their accounting people would have questions on. We'd walk through</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">shops and all that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Well, anyhow, ITT got the site support</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">site services. And we had that for five years. And austerity set in in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">'70s. Well, '70. They said, we got to get site services' budget down to less than $10 million. And it probably was 13</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">or 14, I don't remember now.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So my boss and another analyst, like myself, sequestered</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">talk about sequester. We sequestered ourselves in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the then new Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding for about a week. Almost 20 hours a day, whittling and whittling and working on a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">budget. And there was only one conclusion. We had to cut everything in half.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Went through all that sweat. Went up with our pres</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ident, Tom Leddy, went upstairs to an</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> AEC finance</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">office, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">presented</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> our whole case. And the man turns around and says, well, it doesn't make any difference, Tom.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Your contract's not renewed anyhow.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And so now, Atlantic Richfield, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">an existing contractor for 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">reas, somehow the separations plant contractor that</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">is an oil company owned,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> can all of a sudden manage a site service. And so they did absorb us. But politics</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">were still around in those days. And there were three of us analysts. One had got transferred by ITT up to the new</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">line</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">newly est</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ablished Distant Early Warning L</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ine from Russia up to Alaska. So that left two of us. And we waited</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">around. We waited around and never got an offer. And they said, no, we can do it all without you. We don't need</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">you. How come it took so many people anyhow?</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">On a Friday afternoon, the man that I did budgets for saw me in a restroom. He said, you got an offer yet? </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I said, no, n</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">o. I'm</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">working under the table with somebody else. Well, he says, if they don't hire you, I'm going to hire you. And so he</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">went downtown, and a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">bout 4 o'clock, I got a call from the man that told me they didn't need us. Said they'd been kind of thinking. So I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">went over Atlantic Richfield</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> under those.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">AUDIO CUTS OUT] </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And so I'm</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> not mad, not knocking—knocking them</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">, that's just the way things were.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And then Rockwell came to town. Wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">en they laid off everybody on</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">-2,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> I'm trying to think of other</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">community, something might be of interest for the history project. Back into the '50s.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Those</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> same green buses, they had, oh, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">four or five of them that ran in town like a modified transit system. I don't</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">think they had that many riders, but it did. And also, the plant buses ran what they called shuttle routes. And those</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">buses went into Richland on probably six routes and drove around the neighborhoods and picked up workers on</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the three shifts. And that's why up in the ranch house district, there was the bypass you'll see between homes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The pathways that go clear through lots. Blocks were so long that they had to provide a quicker route to the bus</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">stops.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Now, those rides were free because they were shuttle buses. When you got out to the bus lot, you paid your</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nickel, or a pass, whatever it was.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I wanted to ask you about accounting in </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">terms of equipment practices. W</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ere there a lot of changes during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">time you worked at the Hanford</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> site? Computer technology come in and change things?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Oh, yeah. For sure. In the beginning, as I mentioned earlier, all accounting was open ledgers and hand posted.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Adding machine tapes at the end of the day trying to balance them all out. And we had that until</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">let's see. 1970s—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">think it was 1977, we got our very first taste of it. Every other desk in a group of about 20 people in cost</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">accounting that I was in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There was cost accounting, gener</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">al accounting, and so on, p</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">roperty management. But anyhow, we had about 20</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">people. Every other desk had a monitor. Well, they referred to them as a computer. But they were just the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">monitor. And down at the end of our building was one printer. And everything was on floppy disk. Every program</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">was on a floppy disk. Nothing was built-in because it was just the infancy. The big computers were down in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Federal B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uilding. And a sub-basement below the basement was specially built for that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But back to our office. Across the hall from us, we had two small computers that are</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">to me, they're about the size</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of portable sewing machines. And I can't even remember the names of them </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">because they don't exist today b</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ut</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they were the computer locally. So we wanted to run our work order system, we would phone down to the guy</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">down at the other end of the building, insert the floppy disk from work system and wait.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Well, I've got somebody'</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s inventory. You have to wait. Because t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">here's only one place to load up down there. So finally,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">you would put the floppy disk in. And then, you'd run it, which meant it'd run through it and print. But then you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">have to say, now print it. And they got one printer for the whole building. And so it's pretty interesting.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Whereas</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> today, I've got a laptop that I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> can virtually do everything with. But we graduated from hand posted</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ledgers right into computers. We didn't have anything in between. All of the reports that came out, came out on--referred to as IBM runs because everything was IBM. It was on paper that's about 18 inches wide with all these</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">little perf marks on it to feed it. And you'd get one report and it would be about that thick. It was not that much</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">information, but it's just so much printing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">It's even hard to remember after 26 years how antiquated that is compared to today. But prior to that, it wasn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">even the PCs. They called everything a PC. Or, was PC compatible. Because prior to that, the only electronic data</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">processing nickname was spaghetti wire. I'm not very conversant in it, but it was some kind of a board that had a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">bunch of holes in it. They put wires in it and that went to certain things. But all it did was sort things. It didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">actually calculate them.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the community of Richland. What was that like in the 1950s? I know it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">was a government--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">In the town? I g</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uess I didn't cover that area. Everything—a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ll houses were owned by government. We rented them.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">My wife and I and family, we came after the days of free everything. When the coal was free</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">all the furnaces</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">were coal fed. Some people would convert them later on to oil. But anyhow, they were coal burning. However you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">got the coal,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> whether it was government days</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> or you bought the coal from the courtyard, which is down at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">end of what's </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">now Wellsian</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Way. There was a coal yard where that lumber yard is. And that's why those</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">railroad tracks that are abandoned and rundown, that's where the coal cars came in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I can add something a little bit later about coal cars and the plant. But anyhow, we rented from the government.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">For example, that brand new apartment that I mentioned moving onto first was a two-bedroom, full basement.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Steam heated because</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I'll digress a little bit.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">All the downtown 700 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea, including the Catholic church, central</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> church, the hospital, all 700 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea, including</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">those new apartments, and all downtown shopping area were steam heated by a steam plant, which was located</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">where the back door of the post office is today in that small parking lot. And that one plant furnished steam for</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">everything.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Well, back to this new apartment. The steam pipe</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> ran through this full basement. And our kids played</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">there</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">wasn't any yards. There was just apartments. And they would play in the basement because they were quite</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">small. But they can remember today the pop, pop, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">pop in those steam pipes.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And the rent for that two-bedroom apartment was higher than any other house in town. It was $77 a month. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the reason it was $77 instead of $70 was because it included $7 for electricity. Nobody had electricity meters yet.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Even in that new place. So when they did put in electricity meters in all homes later, which had to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—during that time, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the year we</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">were there, which is December '51 to December of '52, sometime in that period of time they put the meters in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">They took off $7 off the rent because now we're going to pay</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—and </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">their theory is it was $5 for a one-bedroom place,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">whatever it was. $7 for a two-bedroom and $10 for a three-bedroom for electricity in those days. And nobody had</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">electric heat, of course.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And then, later on they put in water meters. And again, they had to come into your home, invade your home, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">put in something. So it was strictly government prior to</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—well, another—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">and when I lived in the rental, if something went wrong</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">with the plumbing, they would send out a plumber, but you paid for it, though.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But later on when I went to the tall two-story, three-bedroom duplex houses, or called </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> houses, that was our first</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">house after that apartment. And as I remember, I think the rent was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they had rent districts with low, medium, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">high in the more desirable parts of town.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And we were on Haupt Street across from uptown district where Hunt Street is and Jefferson Park. And I think our</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rent for that was like $47 because it was not a brand new apartment.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And later on, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> on the housing list. And you applied and months or years later, you'd rotate up to</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">move into a nicer place or a different location. But in the meantime, up came an F house, which is a two-story</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">single family, kind of a Cape Cod-looking type of house. And that came up on the housing list. However, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">caveat was that you had to cash out the present owner who had made some improvements. He had converted</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the coal to oil, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hey put in a clotheslin</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e, which nobody had clotheslines, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nd something else.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So cashed him out for</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I believe it was $750. And if I do that, I could have it, so I did. We lived in that place for 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">years. Our daughter grew up there and got married out of that home. And that's the only home she ever knew.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And we were there until 1977 when the real estate market in Richland was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">this is community wide. The housing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">prices were mo</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ving 18% a year, about 1.5</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">% a month.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And I thought well, I don't need to be setting</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> still. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> mean, if I cash out here, and went on</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. So we </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">sold that home. I listed it. Earl,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> my</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">father, was very ill. We were going to Spokane. I listed it. A man came by, looked it out. What were you asking? I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">said, oh, about 17. He shook his head. And I said, too high? He says, no, 27,000. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Just to show you how bad</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">things were. And so it sold right away. What are you going </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">to do now? And I said, well. Would</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> you want to try a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">mobile home? I know a jewel.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And in those days, real estate men did not sell mobile homes. But this couple had bought their first house from</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">him, or something. And i</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">t was somebody retiring out of postal</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">, wanted to go back to Montana. Never</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">smoked in it, never had any pets in it, n</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">o kids. It was the Cadillac of mobile h</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">omes. We were there two years, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ut</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">that was l</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ong enough. Then we moved into the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> house that I'm still in. I'm widowed now for five years. The house</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">we're in now, we've lived in that longer than</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> any other place. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But the community</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> just</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> has changed so drastically.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">South Richland. People say today they live in South Richland. We lived in South Richland, which was south of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">downtown shopping district to the Yakima Bridge. That was South Richland.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">What is now South Ri</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">chland out there was Kennewick</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Highlands.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> So it depends on who you're talking to today.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yeah. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Do you remember any special community events, parades, any of those sorts of things during the '50s and '60s?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Community event</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yep. Back in GE days, they had Atomic Frontier D</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ays. And they were a big thing. Had beauty queens in it, rode in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the float, and all that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Down at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—[COUGH] excuse me. For Atomic F</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rontie</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">r D</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ays down at the lower end of Lee Boulevard, which is still the same</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">shape today. They set up booths all on there. And it was a really big event. Before we had the hydro races even.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">People look back fondly on that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Talking about community, again, my mother, I said, worked for the post office, wh</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ich—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">t stood on the corner of Knight</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Street, where it touches George Washington Way. There's some kind of a lawyer office building there</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">today. And the old post office is the Knights of Columbus building on the bypass highway.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">But she</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> would have to take the mail and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> go</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> over to where the Red</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Lion Motel is today, at</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> the Desert Inn, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">frame building, winged out basically</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> the same</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. And that was referred to as the transient quarters. And that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">for upper management that were going through and it wasn't </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">really </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">a public motel, per se. But she would have mail for</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">these big wigs over there. So she would have to go over there and have a badge to even go in the front door of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">that</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Desert Inn.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Talking about badges, something humorous on that. We didn't wear things around our neck in the beginning</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">because it was like a little pocket-sized bill fold. It was a little black bill that had your pass, your badge in it. And at</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">every building you went into, you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> just</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> pulled it out, flashed it to the guard. It usually was a lady security employee.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There were guards in the building, but the person on the desk was a security clerk. But you'd just automatically</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—you’d open it </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">like that and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> flag and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> put it back in your pocket.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Every buildin</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">g you went into. Downtown, 700 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea, that first building I've referred to. One day I went into a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">restaurant and I just did that automatically</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> because it's just so automatic. Then they graduated to having the thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">around your neck. And then also, if you worked in the outer areas, you had to wear a radiation badge in addition</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">to your secu</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rity badge. There was two types and o</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ne of them was a flat. And I don't know the difference. One's for beta and one's for alpha. I don't know. And one</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of them was a pencil </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">shaped. And that's what they called it. And the other one was a flat badge, which was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">carried in something around your neck.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And in all the areas I worked, and the places I described laying on the ground t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat happened and all that, my</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">RAMs,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> they call it, never accumulated in my w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">orking life to be a danger</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. I had some, of course. Everybody</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">does in the background. But I never accumulated to a danger point.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There were people, some smart aleck people that would take their badge and hold it over a source at work so</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they could get some time off. Because if you got</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">what was the phrase?</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Anyhow, if they got contaminated, they put them on a beefsteak diet. And they stayed home. And they come every</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">day and took a urine sample and all that s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">tuff. But they had a life of riley. So that was nice</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. But the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">guys got canned that did that. But they would purposely expose their pencil so they could stay home.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So did all employees ha</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ve those, either the pencil or--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Only those that worked in reactor and separations areas, yeah. I mentioned these departments.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Actually, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">he first department is Fuel Preparations Department, FPD. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> present—the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">most of the buildings have now been</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">torn down that you don't even see them there. But the north half roughly was fuels preparation department</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">headed for the reactors. They took uranium and encapsulated it in cans, like can of peas in just so many words.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And the south half of that 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea was a laboratory area, the predecessor of Battelle. So the fuel was prepared</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">there. And it was machined and canned and sent as nickname slugs to the reactors. Then, the reactors loaded</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">into all those little tubes. And then from the reactors, they come </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">out the backside into those</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> cooling pods and all that. And t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ransported in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">casks to the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">reas, which are</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> separated area, separations. And the rea</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ctor area on the face</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> side was not</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">that dangerous.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">reas only work on</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> what they </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">called the canyons, PUREX and RE</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">DOX, and those kind of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">buildings. But t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hose cells were very, very hot. But you had to be </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">measured no matter where you were.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">One of our site services was a decontamination laundry</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> called the laundry. And all clothing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I mentioned to you</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">before SWP.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Well, SWP, radiologic exposure employees wore whites. Carpenters and truck drivers and all that that didn't work</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">around reactors wore blues. And so they were sorted. And we had different billing rates for that laundry because</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the blues only had to </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">be laundered and dried. Whereas</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> the others had to be laundered, dried, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">decontaminated, checked in separate washing machines. And then workers wore</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">n the beginning, wore World</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">War II-style gas masks for our air supply before they invented a moon-type suit.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> But they wore gas masks.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And the mask would come back to this mask station, which was part of the laundry. And they took the mask</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s, and t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hey'd take away the cartridge. They'd put th</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e mask in dishwasher machines, i</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">n racks. That's how they would</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">wash them. And then they would get them a new filter and package them up. Sanitize them and package them up</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">l</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ike medical supplies would be in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I can't think of any other unusual operation out there like that.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I want to c</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hange gears just</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> a little bit. President Kennedy visited the site in 1963.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Yep, 1963.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I was wondering--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">When they did that, they let all the schools out. And for the first time, non-workers were allowed to go in cars out</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">there. It was a grand traffic jam, but it was quite a deal. And he landed his Air</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> Force plane up at Moses Lake—at Larsen airbase at Ephrata, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">whichever you want to call it. And then helicoptered. And of course, like it is</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">today, there were three or four helicopters. And you don't know which one he's on and all that bit.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And here, e</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">veryone is gathered out the N Reactor a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea, which is a dual-purpose reactor. They captured the heat from the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">reactor, put it through a pipe throu</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">gh a fence to the predecessor</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> to Energy Northwest, which was </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">called Whoops.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> This was a big deal, a dual-purpose react</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">or. And N stood for new reactor, really. </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Anyhow, he comes in and they got a low-boy trailer. They fixed up down in the shops where I worked</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">my office</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">was. And then built a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> podium just precisely for the P</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">resident with him emblem and the whole bit. So I was privy to</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">get to see some things like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> But anyhow, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat was the stage. And it was a long low-boy, so it accommodated all the senato</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rs and all the local—Sam Volpentest, the guy credited with HAMMER</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">those type of people. Glenn Lee</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> from the Tri-City Herald, you name it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">So the helicopter comes in, blows dust over everybody. But anyhow, my wife and kids and all schools were</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">brought out there. And I don't know how many thousand people were out there in the desert. And you could see</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">President Kennedy. He got up on the stage. You get close enough, you could get pictures.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Then, that same year in </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">November, he got assassinated. So t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat was a busy year.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Do you remember any other special events with dignitaries like that? Or other--</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Well, I could go way back to World War II. I wasn't here, but I have a family connection</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> on it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. All over United States,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they had</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> war bond drives for various reasons to help. Build a ship, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">uild an airplane. The one that happened here is not</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the only one. But they took so much money out of all the paycheck of Hanford workers, which included my dad as</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">a carpenter. And the money they collected bought the B-17 Bomber, which was named Day's Pay.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And that bomber</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they had a bomber out here, a B-17, so that people could see it, but it wasn't the same one. On</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the Richland High School wall there's a mural. And that's a rendition by a famous artist of Day's Pay in formation.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And so I can say that my parents contributed to that. And that's the story behind that one bomber. Every worker</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">out there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> construction or operations, they donated a day's pay.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I wonder</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> what was the most challenging part of your job working at the Hanford site?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">As an accounting person, my most challengin</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">g part was learning government-e</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">se.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> How to deal. And in that vein,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">that took a long time. But once you learn it, there is a way in the US government, period. As I'm sure there is in</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">certain corporations.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Later on, when I mentioned that I went down to the federal building for my</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">finally got located in that building,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> there was</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">another fellow and I were old timers in accounting. And that year, they had five college grads, accounting grads</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">come in. They hired five at one time. And they ran them by Marv and </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> for exposure.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">This is how things are done. This is how the contacts are. And our basic job was to squire these young fellows</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">around and introduce them to certain counterparts and now DOE. Now, this is how you make appointments with</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">them. This is what you do. This is what you never do. And likewise, with senior management. And it paid off</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">because of those five, all four of them b</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ecame managers or supervisors, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nd one of them became my manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">within two years.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Today, that same man is the comptroller at Savannah River Plant.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And so I like to feel that I contributed to them</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">being</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">partially to them being successful. And so that's a reward. But probably the most difficult thing coming from</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">a private</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I worked for Colorado Mill and Elevator, which means I worked at a flour mill district office as a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">bookkeeper. And that's a small town deal in Twin Falls.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">To come to work for the government where some of your family despises you because you work for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">government, but you had to fight that as well as learn how the government operates.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Y</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ou mentioned earlier, y</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ou were talking about coal being used for heat in Richland. You also said you wanted to talk about coal fires</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">going up</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> at the site.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Oh, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hat?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Coal fires?</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Oh, yeah. Interestingly, the midway power station, substation at midway, is one of the reasons they built Hanford</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">where they did because the Grand Coulee Dam had just been completed and an electricity producer</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">a major</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">producer. And they put the midway substation down there. That basically was built to furnish huge amounts of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">power to Hanford, for the reactors, everything.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Which in total</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">because I processed vouchers, I know it was 32 </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">megs</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. Which today doesn't sound like much, but</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the whole plant bill was 32 </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">megs</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> when everything was operating. But if the power were interrupted, they had</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> to have</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">backup. So e</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">very area had a huge diesel-powered</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">like water pumps, where t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hey could pump the water from the river</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">instead of by electrically. They had to be able to pump it because it was critical. Because all the water for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">whole plant was taken in at intake water plants near the rea</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ctors along the river. The 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rea water is piped to</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">them in a huge line as raw water until it gets to their place.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The backup is these coal-fired steam plants</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> is what I was trying to say. It got about 30-some cars of coal a day</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rolled through Richland past the cemetery. In the beginning, the railroad </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">came down from the north, from V</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">antage</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">area down along the Columbia River. There's a railroad bridge across the</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> river, </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Beverly I think it is. And it came</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">down to below the 100</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">B</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> R</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">eactor area. That's where the line ended. And t</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">hen a plant had its own railway</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">incidentally. It had a 285 mile-long rail line, high line and low line.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Then, they built</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in 1950, the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">year before I came</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">, they built the line that we see today that comes from</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rebuilding outfit is now, there is a roundhouse that it's rectangular in shape. But some 30 cars of coal a day came</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">in here to supply </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">because those plants were—</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">they actually operated the steam plants. They didn't start</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">them up from cold. They just ran constantly.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I wonder if you could provide sort of an overall assessment of how Hanford was as a place to work. What was it</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">like as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">It was a great place for me. I came out of an area that was the agriculturally-oriented. And the Korean War</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">started. Wages were frozen, y</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ou weren't going to go anywhere. I came up here and I got a new start, like</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">pioneers did. I visualized that's what fa</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">rming pioneers did the same thing</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">. And it opened up a whole field for me, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">big corporate field. And it's just been a great place to work. And it was not dangerous to me. I'm not afraid to drink</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the water here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">I'm a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">sked by a nephew in Hermiston </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">constantly, how do you drink the water? And I said, well, it comes out of</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">the river. How can it co</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">me out of the river and that </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">plume</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> out there?</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">There's so many false stories around here. But working at Hanford, I think, by and large, almost all employees</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">would tell you the same thing. It was a great place to work.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">The pay was decent. Maybe you didn't get rich, but it was decent. It's in a nice area to live in.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">When we came back in the '50s, or in the '40s, and before that even of course, shopping was pretty much</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">nonexistent. They went to Yakima, or Spokane, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">r Walla Walla. That I didn’t—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">e didn't experience that too much by 1951</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">because by that time, the U</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ptown shopping district was built. And there was a men's store. And there was four</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">women's stores. Because GE was the prime contractor, there was an appliance dealer that handled GE-Hotpoint</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">appliances. We got employee discounts when we worked for GE.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">We also got 10% gasoline discount when we worked for Atlantic Richfield Hanford. But we just grew with the times.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">And it's just such an entirely different area now than it was. Just the world is different, too.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Is there anything that I haven't asked you about? Is there anything you would like to talk about that we haven't</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">talked about yet?</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Now really, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">ork-wise at Hanford, I think I</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">’ve</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> pretty well-covered it. I'll repeat myself. My first 15 years was construction</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">engineering accounting, which is an entirely different field than operations accounting. Operations accounting</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">concerns itself with the </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">reactor</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">s and separations and the site services that support them. But I learned a lot by</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">working at Hanford.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">My family, three adult children live here, are retired here. My oldest son went on Medicare this year.</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> And that kind</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">of puts you in your place quickly. But it's been</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> a</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> good enough place that they stayed in the area. And of the six</span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">granddaughters, grandchildren, four of them are in the area. And that's kind of characteristic with a lot of the Tri-City families. They stay or come back.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">Well, Bob, I'd like to thank you very much for coming and talking to us today. I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX194300000">
<p class="Paragraph SCX194300000"><span class="TextRun SCX194300000"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bush</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX194300000">It's been my pleasure.</span><span class="EOP SCX194300000"> </span></p>
</div>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:02:19
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
3068 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1951-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1951-1977
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Volpentest, Sam
Kaiser, Henry
Leddy, Tom
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
General Electric
Atlantic Richfield
Rockwell
Westinghouse
703 Building
F Area
H Area
300 Area
200 Area
700 Area
WPPSS
HAMMER
N Reactor
100-B Reactor
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Bush
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Bush moved to Pasco, Washington in 1951 and later moved to Richland, Washington. Bob worked on the Hanford Site from 1951-1987.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Grand Coulee Dam (Wash.)
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-05-17: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/7/2013
100-B Reactor
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
DuPont
F Area
General Electric
H Area
Henry Kaiser
Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963
N Reactor
Richland (Wash.)
Washington Public Power Supply System
-
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3816611a7f7cbd88b1b5d25e8b651ee9
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc9ba08478b7c6707489551cbfcf22ffa.mp4
8ba37550abf1599a853424689260db35
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Steve Buckingham
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100">
<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span class="SpellingError SCX150736100">Buckingham_Steve</span></span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></strong></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">We're going to go ahead and start if that's all right.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Steve Buckingham:</span> Okay.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> So if we could start by just having you say your name and spell</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">it for us?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Okay. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">It's</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> John Stevens Buckingham is the full name, and it's S-T-E-V-E-N-S</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> B-U-C-K-I-N-G-H-A-M, just like the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">palace.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">All right. Thank you. And today's date is November 13 of 2013--</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">November 13, 19</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">2013.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: 2013.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">2013.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I'm still in the last century.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And my name’</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">s Bob Bauman, and we're doing this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So if we could start maybe by having you tell us how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you arrived</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100">
<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. Well, first of all, I'm a native Washingtonian. I was born in Seattle, grew up in Pacific County. Went to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Washington</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">graduated from high school in 1941, and went to Washington State College, at that time, in chemical</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">engineering. Well, of course you know the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th of that year. I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">able to finish off my first year at Washington State, and came back, the second year, the sophomore year, there</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">were just mobs of people on campus recruiting for military. I tried several of them. I tried to get into the Navy V-12</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">program, but my eyes were not good enough. But I was able to get into an Air Corps program that they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">looking for meteorologists. So I signed up for that. I had to get my dad to give me permission, because I was only</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">18 at the time.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">But I was able to finish </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">my sophomore year. I had just begun my</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> freshman, my first semester, and I had just</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">started the semester, my second semester, when I got the call to report to active duty. And the program that I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">signed up for was this pre-meteorology program. And actually, it was kind of a neat situation. I was sent to Reed</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">College in Portland, Oregon. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd it was a little bit of a cultural shock, coming from a rather conservative</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Washington State to go to Reed College. We could smoke in classes. We could go up to a girl's room in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">dormitory. [LAUGHTER] A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd they sang rather interesting songs on campus</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> too.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> But Reed has very high scholastic standards,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">and I think the best math professor I ever had, I had at Reed College. But we went</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we just had almost normal</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">college classes:</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> math, and physics, and geography. It was an interesting experience.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, after a year at Reed, and also being in the military</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">because I think we must have had about</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">, what,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> two</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">flights of cadets there, and we were all in uni</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">form, of course. And after one year</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> they decided they had enough</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">meteorologists, so most of us were looking around for another program to get into. And I applied to go into</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">communications, because I had a lot of physics background by then, and was accepted in that. They sent me to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">—oh, </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">gosh, I can't even think. It was North Carolina. It was the first time I'd ever been down to the South, which was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">another cultural shock. [LAUGHTER] T</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">o see separate drinking fountains for black</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">colored and white. That's where we went</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">through, essentially, Officers Candidate School. But the communications part of it was spent at Yale University in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">New Haven. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">That was about—oh, </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I think that was about six months that I was there going through communication.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">We had to learn all about radio and communications. But there is where I got my</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I was commissioned, then, as a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">second lieutenant in the Air Corps. And about the time that I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">just before I finished there, one of my friends had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">gone up to Yale University</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">to Harvard, because they were looking for people to work in radar. Well, why not?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> So</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I applied, and was sent up to New Haven</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">not New Haven, up to Harvard. And there we went through a very</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">intensive training on electronics, getting all the background on electronics. I used to kind of laugh. If you dropped</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">a pencil on the floor went to drop</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> to pick it up, you'd be behind three months.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> It was really intensive training.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And after that training, then they sent</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">most of us went downtown in Boston and worked on the top floor of a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">building that overlooked the harbor</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> developing radar they were working on.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And that was really kind of interesting. But that was kind of temporary. That was just to give us some practical</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">experiences. So that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">then when that part of the training was over with, they assigned me to the 20th Air Force,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">which was the big bombers that were gettin</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">g ready to go to Japan, and sent</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> me to Boca Raton, Florida. And that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was kind of another goof-off. We were just</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we had to go o</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">n training exercises, flight training exercises once a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">week. So I got to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> fly all over Florida, all over the Caribbean.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Just goof-off things. It's really kind of almost</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">embarrassing, because we'd go fishing and stuff like that on the boat, because they'd always had to send a boat</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">out in case a plane went down in the ocean, and so we could go out on the boat an</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">d</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> fish.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">While I was at Boca Raton,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> then</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> the Japanese surrendered, and the war was over. Well, what are they going to do with</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">all of us that had been trained?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I went out to Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they were bringing B-29s back from</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">overseas. And all we did was remove the radar equipment from B-29s and stash it someplace. Well, I guess they</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">decided they really didn't need us anymore. So I was able to be discharged and get back to the Washington State</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">College to pick up my second semester sophomore year. Well, I had accumulated so many credits in going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">these other colleges. So I went and talked to the dean, and he says, well, why don't you just switch to chemistry?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Get your degree in chemistry or general, and then come back for a master's degree.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, I had been on the East Coast for two years, and I did not like it back there. Being a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">my mom and dad lived</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">out in Pacific County</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> yet</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">, and I wanted to get home. I had two job offers when I graduated from college. One was in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Troy, New York, and the other was here. General Electric was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">had on the campus quite a bit of recruiting</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">people, because they were getting ready to develop a new separation p</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rocess called the REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd they</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">were looking for people with scientific background, chemistry and so forth, to work there. Well, I grabbed the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">opportunity, and I arrived here on the 26th of July in 1947. I remember the day.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> And that was really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">it was very</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">interesting, because Richland was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">GE was really operating under the old DuPont system yet. It was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">organization was still the one that DuPont set up during construction.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">We were in the technical department.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> And I was sent out to the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">reas</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> waiting for my clearance to come</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">through, and w</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e were just analyzing the water</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that went</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> through the piles. And then when my </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">clearance</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">came through, they sen</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">t me to the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rea where</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> they were developing this new separation process, this</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process, and we were doing the analytical control for </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. And that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">of course, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">development was using just uranium and other chemicals that didn't have any of the radioactive, really highly</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">radioactive material other than uranium. But it was really very interesting, because a whole new line of metallurgy</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was being dev</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">eloped there. The metallurgy in—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">old metallurgy was stuff like smelting, and electrolytic, and stuff like</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, the chemical separation process they used out at Hanford was a carrier precipitation process, which did not</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">allow them to recover the uranium. So this is why they were developing this new solvent extraction process, so</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> could</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> cover both plutonium and uranium simultaneously. That was really quite a remarkable new metallurgical</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">process that they were really developing here at Hanford, because how do you contact organic and aqueous</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">pha</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ses, and stuff like that? And </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">what kind of a con</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">tact? They had all kinds of ones</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> that they were working with</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there in the 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rea, and it was really very interesting. We were doing all </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the analysis for it. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">then </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I was there</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">maybe a little over a year, and they decided we needed to have a little experience with </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">“</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">real</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">”</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> material.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER] So they sent</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">several of us of to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> shi</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ft supervisors, out of the 200 Area, and the 222-T and 222-V P</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lants. That's</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">where we got to work with real material. And it was just another training program. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">y</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> were still</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they had begun</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">construction on the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> P</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lant. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd about that time, then there was a little bit of an accident down in Texas,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">where a ship loaded with ammonium nitrate blew up and practically wiped out the city of Texas City.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> And that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">what we were using as a salting agent in the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. Well, that set the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process into a big delay.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">What are you going to do with</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we can't use ammonium nitrate. It's just plain too hazardous. They began looking</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">at new salting agents at that time, and it took, oh, maybe six months or so before they finally came up with a new</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">salting agent.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, we just kind of fiddled around a little bit out in the labs. They were closing the business phosphate process</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">labs. They combined them into just one lab. So several of us just kind of floated around doing other work that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">kind of related to the REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. For a while, I was in standards, where we were making radioactive</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">standards they used to control the counting machines and all that kind of stuff. And it was not that interesting. Well</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I had an opportunity then to go into an organization that was still there i</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">n the old 3706 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">uilding in 300 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rea. It was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">called process chemistry. And they were the ones who were working on the chemistry of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. It</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was just</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">to me, it was just an absolute perfect fit, because I liked to monkey around with experiments and do</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">research type stuff.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And it was a neat bunch of people that we were working with. Some of them I still kind of chortle when I think of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">some of the stuff they pulled.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> But I was able to move into that, and I w</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">as the third person to move out</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> to 222-S,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">which </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was the laboratory for the REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. And that's where we were, for our final laboratory was out there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And I stayed in that most of my working career. I did take a couple years to go over to work on writing the waste</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">management tech manual, because they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that was another process. We got to work in every new process</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that came along. We concentrated a lot on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process, </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">because that was new. And then that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> chemist down</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in the Hanford laboratories discovered tributyl phosphate, so that opened up the whole new PUREX process. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">had to be developed. And all the chemistry that went in to that development, we worked with.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And then they decided they had to do something with the waste, and there was an outfit came in that was going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">separate out fission products out of the waste. And we were going to have a big fission product market. Well, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">s</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">eparated out a lot of strontium-90 and cesium-137. And the strontium-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">90 was all right, because they could use</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that as a heat source for places where they didn't have much sunshine, deep space probes and so forth. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">cesium, unfortunately</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> the capsule we set someplace leaked, and we had a little bit of embarrassment. That had to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">be cleaned up. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">So Isochem had taken</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that was when the companies had separated into all these different</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">companies. And the waste management </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">just </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">kind of petered out. We still had waste management we had to do</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">something with.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">So I continued just working on it</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> but went back to the process chemistry laboratory. I finally ended up manager</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there for several years until I retired.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> But it was a real experience, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hat's all I've got to say. I feel like I was very</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">fortunate in being able to work with so much new technology. And I think one of the more interesting ones was, we</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">were recovering</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">out of our wast</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e, we were recovering neptunium-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">237, and I had set up a small demonstration</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">process in the laboratory. And for three years, I wa</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">s the total source of neptunium-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">237 in the whole United States.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And that 237, when we first started doing it, we actually would convert the 237 to an oxide, and mix it with</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">aluminum, and make a fuel element out of it that we stuck</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> in B reactor to make plutonium-239. Plutonium-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">239 is a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">very unique isotope of plutonium. It is non-fissionable, but if you get a ball of it about the size of a golf ball, it's</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">generating so much heat, it'll actually glow red.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">So they use it as a heat source for deep space probes. So we were working on snap programs and all this is really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">fascinating new technology. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I just feel very fortunate that I had been able to have a finger in some of this stuff</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that's really far out. We were looking</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you know that one time they were going to convert that big building next to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the FFT</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">F into a facility just to process</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> plutonium-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">238. That was another program that didn't ever develop. But we</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">kind of had fingers in just an awful lot of stuff over the years. Some of the stuff I kind of laugh about. There was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they developed silver reactors to remove iodine from our off gases coming out of the plant, because of the iodine</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">contamination. And one </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">of the silver reactors at the PU</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REX P</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lant blew up.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Well, it was not serious. It was all</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">contained. But we had to try to figure out, why did that darn reactor blow up? Why did they have a reaction in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And I still remember one of the old chemists, Charlie Pollock. He was the one who was in charge</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> of it</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. But I still</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">remember him making mixtures and putting it outside the lab door on a hot plate and standing behind the door to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">see it, was he going to pop? </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">We did an awful lot of innovation like that. It was just really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I think we did have a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">good time mucking with this stuff. I jokingly say that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">every Monday we would have what they called a process</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">meeting where the chemists and the process engineers would get together to discuss what we're going to do this</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">week. And I always said we just got together to see how we're going to screw the plant up this week. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">There was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">so much new technology, and every week somebody would come up with a new idea. They were the biggest pilot</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> plants in the world, really. [LAUGHTER] B</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">oth the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> one and the PUREX one, just developing these processes. The</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">whole</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you know, when we first came here, we were living in dormitories.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And the men's dormitory was on one side of town, and the women's was on the other side of town. We'd meet in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the cafeteria. [LAUGHTER] A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd I still recall, when we were working shift works, we would gather in the cafeteria after swing shift,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">and we'd still be</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> there talking, or doing something with the guys who would come in for breakfast to go to work on</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">day shifts.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Graveyard was always hell, because you didn't have time to do anything but sleep and eat.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> And swing</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">shift was kind of bad because the movie house, the movies didn't start until 4:00, and so we could go to any</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">movies or anything. But it was tolerable. We formed an organization called the dorm club, where we went on</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">made a lot of camping trips, had a few beer busts. I tell about, I was social chairman for a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">while, and I found a big</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">bargain on beer, Pioneer Beer.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">It was made by the breweries that they opened when they were doing construction during the war. It was not very</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">good beer. I think I had five cases hidden under my bed in the dorm for weeks until I got rid of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> But most of us</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">met our spouses at that time. And it was really a unique situation early on in the late 40s and early 50s, because</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">almost all of us h</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ad been in the same boat. We had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> started college. We'd been called into active duty during the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">war. We'd finished active duty and returned to </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">college to finish our degrees. So we all had had the same type of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">experiences. Some of them were pretty hairy. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">n fact, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> well remember one of my roommates was telling about being in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the Philippines, and sitting on his bunk during one time, and said a big old snake crawled up between his legs.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">think I would have been of the roof and never come back </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">down if that had happened to me! [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">But you know we had all had similar experiences, and it was our first time, really, that we were making any money</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that we could do things with. We could buy cars</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">, and bought cars</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. So we went on just all sorts of trips. We learned</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">most of us</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">learned to ski. And those ski trips, that was still was fairly new in the State of Washington. There was a rope tow</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">up in the Blue Mountains at Tollgate. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">h gosh, I think a season ticket cost $5.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> And</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> we would—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">went down, and I think we</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">initiated the chairlift at T</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">imberline</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> down at Mount Hood. We went to a lot of places just when they were first</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">opening.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> So, in fact--</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">How long did you live in the dorms, then?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, let's see. I lived in the dorms several years, and then an acquaintance was able to get an apartment over on</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">George Washington W</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ay, and he asked if I wanted to share this apartment with him. You had to share.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> You</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">couldn't just live in one by yourself. So I then lived in that apartment for a couple of years, until I got married. Then</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> we had a B</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> house. [LAUGHTER] A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd that's where we were living when they began selling Richland out. And we were junior</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">tenants in the B</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> house, </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">and way down on the move list, s</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">o there wasn't much chance of getting a decent</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">house. My wife and I bought a lot over in Kennewick.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And we didn't have much money, but we had a lot of energy, and we did an awful lot of building our own house. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">think</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I'm still living in it 54 years later.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER] So—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">but it's been</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Oh, I don't regret a day of the work that we've done here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">It's been challenging and interesting. After I retired from full time, I did a lot of part time work. I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> helped—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was declassifying</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">documents and I was a tour director, taking people on tours of Hanford. And I worked at the old Science Center</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">down on the Pos</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">t Office, before that became CREHST</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> over there, where it is now. And the Visitors Center out at</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Energy Northwest, I worked there. And the FFDF Visitors Center. So it's been a wonderful life, really. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Fun.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I wonder, when you arrived</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was it July 26th of 1947? What was your first impression of Richland, or of the place</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">here?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] Well! W</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hen I graduated from college, when my folks came over to graduate, and we came back through here. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I still remember going on the old highway, looking over, and seeing the stack of the old heating plant that used to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">be downtown in Richland, and thinking, oh gosh, do I really want to come here? And it was a little different. Of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">course I had worked in very highly classified stuff during radar during the war. So I was used to the classification.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">But Richland was really different. You just didn't talk about your work at all. You kind of </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">k</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">new what your buddies did.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And there was the separation technology people, there was the pile technology people, the fuel technology</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">people. You kind of knew what they did, but that's all. You didn't really know any </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">details. And you never talked, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">never talked about it.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">You talked about the chemistry of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process. Could you explain sort of what that means, in terms of </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">what the process was?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Yeah. The fuel is dissolved, of course. They take the jackets off with sodium hydroxide, and then you dissolve the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">fuel in nitric acid. And then </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they used this solvent, it’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> an organic solvent. The stuff </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we used was </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">H</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">exon</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">, for what</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the chemical name is methyl</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">isobutyl</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> k</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">etone, which is a paint thinner. And to make sure that we could extract, this</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">H</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">exon</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> would extract uranium and plutonium from aqueous phase into this organic phase. Well, you needed to add</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">a salting agent to be able to improve th</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">at extraction. These were done i</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">n what we called columns. They were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">packed columns. They used some stuff called </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span class="SpellingError SCX150736100">Raschig</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> rings, and they were about 40 feet long. The feed would</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">come</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> about the middle of the column. The organic things would come in at the bottom of the column.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And then there'd be a scrubbing agent came in up at the top of the column, and that would scrub some of this</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">stuff out. Oh, it was a complicated process. Then we would oxidize the plutonium</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">or we would re</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">duce the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">plutonium through a three </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">valence state, and that wouldn't extract. And that was the separation column. And then</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you'd have to run both of these stuff through similar columns to clean</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> it up. It was—r</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">eally, it was kind of a marvelous</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">process. It was a whole new metallurgical processing. It was something that hadn't been done, really, until we did</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">here at Hanford. So just developing all these littl</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e techniques was quite a chore. And it worked!</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Then you said you were s</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hift supervisor in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rea?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Yeah, in the laboratories.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">In the laboratories. So what sort of work did that involve</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> at that point</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, that was, then, that process chemistry that we were doing. But whenever there was an upset with the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">columns, there was all sorts of things, like the columns would occasionally flood, and they would just emulsify, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they couldn't get the organic and the stuff to separate. But why was that happening? And things like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Sometimes the chemistry would get off a little bit, or we would get a carryover for some reason or other. It just</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">it</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">worked, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> it worked very well. But we were able to recover both the uranium and the plutonium. So we weren't</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">putting uranium out in those old waste tanks.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Then, you know, when we developed the PUREX process, we used the tributyl</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">phosphate in a more dilute phase</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">to go back in and recover that uranium we had stored from the old bismuth phosphate separation process. So you</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">name it, we did it! [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I kind of jokingly say that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you know, when DuPont was building this place, the war manpower</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">boards told them where they could recruit, and they did a lot of recruiting in the South, because that was not</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">highly industrialized. So that's why quite a few Southerners came up here to work. Well, Southerners are</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rednecks.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> They can make anything work. And I really, I sincerely think it's a lot of the ability of those people to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">able to do things, why this place even succeeded. And when you stop to think that that original construction and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">everything took place in 14, 16 months, it's just mind boggling.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Given the sort of materials you were working with out there, why don't you talk about safety issues? Was safety</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">emphasized quite a bit?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Oh, you </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span class="SpellingError SCX150736100">betcha</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. You know</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> DuPont was a st</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">inker on safety because they mad</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e gunpowder. You've heard the story</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">about them getting criticized for making big profits doing gunpowder during World War I. So when they took over</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the contract here, they said they'd do it for cost plus $1, and they only received $0.80.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I think that's kind of an</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">interesting story in itself. But DuPont was really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">boy, if you saw something was unsafe, that was corrected right</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">now. You didn't need to continue working in the unsafe condition at all.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And I kind of laugh a little bit about. I think we were safer out at the plant than we were in our own homes. We'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">have these dumb safety meetings. Once a week you had to go through a safety meeting. Sometimes they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">boring as hell. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">But the other </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">thing was that when we didn't have any accidents for a certain length of time, we'd get</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">a prize. I still have some of the prizes we won over the years. That was another thing. When GE was taking over,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we could get GE</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">could </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">buy GE products at employee cost. You wouldn't dare buy a frying pan unless it was GE.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> So</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there were many little advantages.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I wonder, o</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">f the different things you worked on at Hanford, what were some of the most challenging aspects of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">work you did, and what was some of the most rewarding?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, I think one of the most re</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">warding ones was this neptunium-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">237. That was really a fun project, because about</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">once a month we'd have to start up this little pilot plant, and you had to run it 24 hours a day for about a week to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">separate out this 237. That was a very challenging and </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">very rewarding project, because it</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> had a lot of interest.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">That, and the fact that it was also highly classified. They k</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ept changing the classification,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I think every month,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you'd</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> have a new name for it. One time it was Palmolive.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Let's see, what were some of the others? Birch bark.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">You never knew what you were supposed to call it from one month to the next, because it was a very high-priority</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">thing. Also, when we had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they begin shipping most of it back to Savannah River, because Savannah River could</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">make the 238 easier than we could here at Hanford.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">But I would separate out this 237, and I'd have to deliver personally to the mint car. That was the car that took the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">plutonium down to Los Alamos. I'd have to take that 237 up in a cask and put it on </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that mint car.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> So there were a </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lot of little things like that. Some of the challenges, we had some technical problems over the years that were real</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">problems. Like</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> we had a ru</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">thenium problem out at the REDOX</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> process that was a </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">little bit of a challenge. W</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">spewed some plutonium out on the ground out there. And plutonium is kind of a nasty stuff, because it doesn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">absorb. It migrates towards the river fairly fast. So there were a few of those little things that were a bit of a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">problem. Also, then, during the Cold War, when production was so critical</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you know you just didn't shut down for</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hell or high water. And we were running out of waste storage space.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">We came up with a way we could treat the waste and make it crib</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">-</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">able, so we could put it just to a crib, an</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">underground crib, like a dry well. And that was kind of a dumb thing to do.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> But it was necessary, because we had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">to get plutonium out</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> somehow or other. And we didn't have waste storage space. It takes too long to build a waste</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">tank. And some of the interesting little things is some of the crushers found that nice salty stuff down in the soil,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">and we had an awful lot of hot poop spread around in the desert at various places.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Some of those challenges</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">were kind of challenging!</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> We didn't get too involved in it, but somebody was getting involved in it, and we always</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">knew who it was.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">So the situation where y</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ou said that you sort of spewed</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> a little bit of plutonium, was that at PUREX? What</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">happened with that situation?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Oh, they were recovering americium from the plutonium down at 234-5, and they had a criticality event down</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there. That was a very challenging situation. I happened to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the engineer who was in charge of that was a good</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">friend. He was at a Boy Scout—at a heat </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">down along the river, and they went down and got him, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">brought h</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">im back</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> so we could do some work out there. But that was really kind of scary. That's the only really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">serious incident. That and Mr. McCluskey</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">’s</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">, when the glove box blew up in his face. And I always blame the union</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">on that, because the union was being very stubborn about settling the strike, and that's why the column</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> had</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> sat with</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">this acid on it for so long. Then when they started it up, it took off.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Are there any other incidents or things that happened during your time working at Hanford that really stand out to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you? Humorous things, or serious.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I can't think. I can think of several humorous situations that occurred, particularly when I was a punk kid supervisor</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">out there </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in the 222-T P</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lant. We had quite a few women workers out there, and I swear, I think those women used</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lay awake at night to see how they could embarrass me. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] And t</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">his one</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the hot water tank was in the women's</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">restroom, and it had a check valve in it. Well, the toilets were all these pressure-type toilets. And this one woman</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">went in to use the toilet, and the check valve didn</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">'t check. She burned her bottom. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, no.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: A</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd I had to take her to first</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">aid. And she was not at all hesitant about telling me exactly what had happened in detail.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I about died having to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">write up the accident report!</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Had employee been instructed on the job</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> and stuff like that.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> But I still chortle about</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Y</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">eah. Y</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ou talked earlier about how during the peak of the Cold War, there was focus on production, production. At some</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">point, that leveled off, and there was sort of a decreased emphasis on production, and of course, eventually, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">shift toward cleanup. But I wonder if that sort of shift away from really high production, how that impacted your</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">work at all?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Did that change?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">It didn't seem to change it an awful lot. Those are very complicated processes out there. There not just simple</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">processes, and they seem to have a tendency to something always going wrong. Like we had a situation of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">columns flooding. And it was detergents that was put in through the Columbia River, up in Spokane</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Wenatchee</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> up</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">above us. Our water treatment system didn't remove this detergent. It was a phosphate detergent, and there it</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">came through with our water purification stuff that we were doing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I think it gave us a bit of a headache for a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">while, of why there were these columns flooding all the time, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">little </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">situations like that. They see</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">med to come up, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hey'd crop up at weird times. Or a piece of equipment would fail,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">and how do we do it. Just—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">f you ever go out to the a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rea, as you pass the old PUREX P</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lant, there's a tunnel that comes</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">from the end of the PUREX Pl</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ant almost out to the highway, and there's a vent out there. And that tunnel is full of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">equipment that f</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ailed in the PUREX P</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lant that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> they shoved it into this tunnel and left it there. That's got to be</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">cleaned up someday.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I was going to ask you, President Kennedy came to v</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">isit in 1963 to dedicate the N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">eactor. Were you present that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">day? Were you able to see</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Oh, you </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span class="SpellingError SCX150736100">betcha</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. They took </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">us—a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nybody who wanted to go in a bus down to the place where they were going to have</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the dedication. My wife, and her sister, and my two kids came out. And I don't know how my daughter ever found</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">me in that crowd down there, but she spotted me somehow or other.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> We were so far back you could hardly see</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> him</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">But that was the first time they actually allowed people to come on the project, too. So it was really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I think my</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">wife and her sister said they sat for an hour waiting to get through the barricade before they could come out. They</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">were both quite amazed at what they saw when they got out here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Right. And as you look back at all your years working at Hanford, how would you assess it as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, some of the companies were much better to work for than others. I really enjoyed working for General</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Electric, because that's the company I first came to work for here. And Arco was a good company to work for.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Isochem was just kind</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> of iffy. They were very small—a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nd I don't</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they didn't quite have their act together yet.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Some of the other later companies, I thought were just, </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nah</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. That was one of the reasons I quit</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> when I did</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. I quit a little early.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I took retirement at 63, because I just couldn't stand the company that was here at that time. They knew how to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">build airplanes, but they didn't kno</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">w how to run a chemical plant. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> shouldn't be in here. I hope you edit that out.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">You</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> did talk earlier about some of the technology that you saw. I wonder, are there any other examples? Or you</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">could talk about some of the new technology that you saw develop </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">during this time you were there?</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, gosh, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">technology was moving so fast. You know, they had this Fast Flux test</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they built the Fast Flux Test Facility. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was all new technology. And </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the plutonium recycle reactors—</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that was all new technology. I'm just amazed at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">technology that they were developing here. And it was all developed here. We didn't get a lot of credit for it,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">unfortunately.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> And I feel kind of bad about that, because it was the cleverness of the people working here that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">developed some of this technology.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Even up there in that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in what they called the old separation plant, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> old</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> bismuth phosphate plant, the design of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">equipment in that is just very unique. It was the first ti</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">me that high-level radiation</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> radioactive material was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">being handled, and they had to come up with a technique of handling it. There was a crane operator</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there was a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">big long crane that ran the whole length of </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">that 800-foot building. He sat </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in a lead-lined cab behind a concrete</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">parapet. The o</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">nly thing he had was optics that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> he could see down into the cells. And how he could take those--you look into one of those cells down there, and it's like looking into a plate of spaghetti. There's so much junk in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">it, so much stuff in there, pipes. And all everything that comes in has to come through these connectors. And he,</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the crane operator, had to know which one he had to take off first to get in, and another one in behind it, or</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">something.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Wow.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">And just the technology they went through, and the learning process. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I don't know how anyone was ever</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> to do it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">I've talked to one old engineer that, fortunately enough, I could take on a tour one time. He came out here with</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">DuPont during the early construction, and he worked on quite a bit of it. He was here, and they gave him a special</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">tour. And I happened to be the one who took him around. It was one of the </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span class="SpellingError SCX150736100">funnest</span></span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> days I had, because he told</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">me all sorts of things about some of </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">the stuff that he had worked on</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">. He had helped design the cask carts that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">carried the fuel from the reactors up to the separation plants, and he knew the people who would design the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">connectors for the separation plants, and some of the design on the waste tanks. To me, some of the stuff that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">they were able to do here, it still just boggles my mind. There was an awful lot of smart people working on this</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">place, that's all I've go</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">t to say. A lot smarter than me!</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">One more question. I teach a course on the Cold War, and of course most of my students now were born after the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Cold War ended.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> You know, I wonder, as someone who worked at a place like Hanford during the peak of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Cold War, what you would say to a young person who would have no memory of the Cold War at all, or much of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">an underst</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">anding, what it was like to work</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> at Hanford?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">It was a little scary, because we were surrounded by gun emplacements. And I still remember going home after</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">shift one day, and there was some gun emplacements right at the bottom </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">of the Two East H</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ill, and they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">all raised, like they might be ready, had a warning or something. And you kind of wonder about that. And we went</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in, we always had to have these</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in all of the buildings, we had supplies that we could hole up in case of an</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">attack. And all of us had junk in our cars, an evacuation plan. I know my wife and I did. I had canned goods that I</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">would put in the trunk of the car. And if we were attacked, she was to meet me at a certain places in Yakima, and</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> going to head for the Willapa H</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ills.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER] The Willapa H</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ills are a very remote part of Pacific county.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Wow, s</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">o you did hav</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">e preparations in place in case, because--</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Yeah. And some people even built</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there were a few bomb shelters built around.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, is there anything else about your work at Hanford, or your experience there that we haven't talked</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> about</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> yet that</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">you'd like to share?</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Oh, gosh, there's so many things that went on. I could sit here and talk probably all afternoon about some of this</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">stuff because new ideas would come up that I can't remember. Well, I can remember shortly after I had gotten</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">in</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">to the laboratory down at 3706 B</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">uilding, one of the women that I was working with, she and I did more uranium</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">analysis in one shift than anybody had ever done.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> We were very proud of that. We just hit every sample size as</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">perfect. And it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we just were boiling out uranium analysis like crazy.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER] I can't remember now, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ut it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">there were little incidences like that that were kind of fun. And for a</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">while the coveralls that they were</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">giving us had pockets on them to take the size. They were colored. And there were some of those women, I tell</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">u. I like women, b</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ut I think some of those gals that use</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">d to work down there had a warped sense of humor. T</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hey loved to grab ahold of these pockets and </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rip. They'd rip the pockets off!</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Well, they came up behind me one</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">time and grabbed the pockets, of and ripped, and the pockets didn't come off, but the whole seat came off.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> That</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">was when I was still single, and emba</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">r</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">rassed very easily. And I had gotten a blue sock in with my white underwear.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">My shorts were blue! [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> Oh, they got such a kick out of my blue under</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">wear!</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> I could have slapped them, though.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Oh, t</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">hat's quite a story.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">One of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> things that we did, I think we we</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">re a lot closer. We worked closely with each other. And we'd have</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">wonderful</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we'd call them safety meetings in the tavern.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> They were just</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">We'd have a lot</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">we had a lot of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">parties. But they don't seem to do that anymore. I don't know why. We were more like a big family, and if anything</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">happened to somebody, like a death in the family, we would all rally around them and do things like that, like</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">families did. And Richland was really a very close little community back then. If anybody got into trouble, boy, you</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">sure knew it.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your memories and experiences. I really</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Well, I enjoyed doing it, because I think it was a very unique time in history. And I'm afraid that we're beginning to</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">lose that, because my</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">now, I'm getti</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">ng to the age where World War II</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> veterans are dying off like flies.</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> So many of</span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">my friends have already gone, and it's just a little shocking.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Right. </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">Thank you, again, for coming in. I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100">
<p class="Paragraph SCX150736100"><span class="TextRun SCX150736100"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Buckingham</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX150736100">You're very welcome. Thank you for asking me.</span><span class="EOP SCX150736100"> </span></p>
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Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:58:53
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
5273kbps
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
222-T Plant
222-V Plant
222-S Laboratory
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
N Reactor
B Reactor
Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR)
234-5 Building (Plutonium Finishing Plant)
400 Area / Fast Flux Test Facility
Building 3706
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1947-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1947-1987
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Pollock, Charlie
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Steve Buckingham
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Steve Buckingham conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
November 13th, 2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-05-11: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site
Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site
Nuclear instruments & methods
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
200 Area
222-S Laboratory
222-T Plant
222-V Plant
234-5 Building (Plutonium Finishing Plant)
300 Area
400 Area
Arco
B Reactor
Building 3706
DuPont
Energy Northwest
Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.)
General Electric
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963
Kennewick (Wash.)
N Reactor
Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR)
Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX)
Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX)
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F54cd3ac226c71cfb58dbac14575b96eb.jpg
f287161aff407d507797401b6b03f0d5
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1b4d000db44e1cb8761e58f9bedc02ab.mp4
55abe4852274c66ce085092001035e43
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Loris Brinkman
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><strong><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Northwest Public Television | </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span class="SpellingError SCX267983003">Brinkman_Loris</span></span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></strong></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Loris </span></span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">L-O-R-I-S and Brinkman is B-R-I-N-K-M-A-N.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Robert Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Thank you very much. Thanks for letting us talk to you today, I appreciate it. Today's date is October 29, 2013. My</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> name is Robert Bau</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">man and we're condu</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">cting this interview in Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, Washington. So let's start, if you could,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Loris, by having you tell us about how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, and when did you arrive?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, I was, as I stated be</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">fore, I spent seven years with Civil Conservation—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ith the CCCs. And then I got a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">job with DuPont spent one year at Rosemount Minnesota, and that was from 1942 to '43. So I came out here in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">September of '43. And I came out here and they sent me out to 200 West. I came out to 200 West</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> and there</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">wasn't much going on the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">re yet. It was pretty i</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">n the beginning part of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Now they were digging</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">t</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">hey were excavating for the 221-</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">T B</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">uilding. And I think they were probably building on</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the powerhouse. Well, my first job</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> they had to get water down there. And there was a water line just north of us,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">as I recall. And the first thing we had to do is to have a temporary water line, and that was made of wood pipe.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And it was laid out, and it was laid out like this</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> so it made a circle around there so that all the facilities would be</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">able to get water from this water line. And I was given the job of somebody has to follow the work. And there were</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">be places where we'd have to pour some concrete. And it was wood pipe. And wood pipe was certainly new.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And so when we got that pretty well taken care of</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> I was given the job to follow the steam lines. Now as I said, the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">powerhouse was under construction. And the steam line that came out of the powerhouse was about 16 inches in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">diameter. And you see, at th</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">at time, there was the T Building and the U B</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">uilding. And the steam lines came out of</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the powerhouse, which was kind of halfway in between the two.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And then </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">one line went up towards the T B</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">uilding and the oth</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">er line went down toward the U B</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">uilding. Well there</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">was construction or excavation being g</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">oing on at the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I think they called it the 221-</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">T B</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">uilding. And the steam</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">lines were necessary because they were going to furnish the steam for all the construction there. Now in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">steam line, it doesn't sound like a very important job, but we would probably go 300 to 400 feet.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And then there would </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">have to be a, what they called </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">an expansion loop there. It would go like this. And that was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">to take care of the expansion when the steam was in operation. Now the thing that we did was we would construct</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">maybe three</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I don't remember</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">but 300 to 500 feet in length. And then there would have to be a loop to take</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">care of the expansion.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And what we would do is to construct a line, and then about midway between these expansion loops</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> we would cut</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the line and take out about two or three inches, as I recall. And then they would put chains on there and bring</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">those two together and weld them together. Now the reason for that is that the tension was on there when it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">cold.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And when they put the steam in the line, the expansion would make the steam line pretty much without tension on</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">it. You get the idea? And along with that steam line</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> I worked on construction of several permanent buildings that</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">were part of the main construction there. And that was the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">we had the laundry</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> and we had the office building,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">and a few buildings like that. I worked on those, too.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Now when the work was all complete, my portion of the work was fin</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ished there, I went to the 200 E</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ast A</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">rea. And I</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">don't really remember what I did there, but I think it was probably sim</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ilar to what I did over in the W</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">est A</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">rea. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">after about a year's work there, the work that I was doing was pretty well completed.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And so I went to</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">excuse me. See, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">t my age names don't come quite like they used to.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: That’s right, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> But I went to Indiana, to the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Indiana Ordinance Works. And I worked there for about a year. And by that time, after completing the work there, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">went to the Wilmington</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> head office</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> there,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> and I worked </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">there for about two and a half years. </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">But</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> you know,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> after being out here a year, I couldn't quite get this place out of my mind. As we said, if you can last six</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">months, you're going to like it. But many people came out here didn't last six months. When I came out here in the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">beginning, I was going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the fellow that I was working with at Rosemount was already out here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And he had a room in Pasco, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">nd I was going to room with him. So when I got out here and I called his number,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">and I said, I'd like to speak to Ham</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. Mr. Ham</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> terminated last Friday. And there was another man with me and he</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">said, Mr. Brinkman, I don't know anything about Mr. Ham</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">m</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. I will tell you one thing, it takes a damn good man to</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">stay out here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> [LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">But anyway, after another year down at Wilmington</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">or down at Indiana Ordina</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">nce Works, I went to Wilmington and</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> I</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">stayed there for about </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">two and a half</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> years. And then there was an opportunity for me to get back out here. I didn't</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">hesitate. I came out here again. Got out here in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I think it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">1948. And I've been here ever since.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">What was it about the place that made you want to come back?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">One of the things is the climate. This is ideal climate. We don't have these 40 degree weather that we had in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Wisconsin. Once in a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">while i</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">t did get cold here. One time. I was, let’s see—w</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">e did have six days of cold weather. And the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">temperature got as low as minus 26 or 27 degrees.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Wow.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> And that was six days.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And then I went out in the evening and oh, I says we have a chinook. A chinook</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">they called it a chinook when the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">warm breeze would come in there. And it's chinook. A</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">nd the temperature went up 40,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> 50 degrees</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> in the night</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. So the cold</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">period was over with. But I just like the weather. I like the people that were here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">They were people that were out here for one purpose, we've got to get this thing built. We need this in our war. So</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">that was the main thing that I liked out here.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">When you first came in 1943, what were your very first impressions of the place? Do you remember?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, I really didn't hate the place. A lot of people did. We didn't have very much sunshine. There was about six</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">weeks the sun didn't shine. But I really enjoyed the place.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And when you came out here to work, what did you know about the work you were doing or what Hanford was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">for?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, in the first place, you didn't know what we were going to make here. Nobody's</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">there were a few people that</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">knew, but that was not discussed. We did not discuss what we were going to make here and what it was going to</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">be used for. That was absolutely quiet.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Do you remember when you found out?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yes, when I was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I think it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">in Indiana Ordinance Works when they dropped the bomb. Then I knew what we</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">were doing out here. That this was very important. And the bomb was very important.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And when you worked out here in 1943, do you remember how much money you made?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yes. I made</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I think it was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">about $85 a week.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And how many hours a week was that?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, when I first started out here it was nine hours, six days a week. Put in about 54 hours.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And then when you came back in 1948, what sort of job did you have when you came back here?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I have to think a little bit on this, on what I did. I don't remember what exactly what the first job was. But my biggest</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">job after getting back here was construction of</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">supervising, or not really supervising, but seeing that the job was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">done according to the plans of the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> tank farm. We had these underground tanks. You see, we had waste, and that</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">waste had lots of plutonium in there.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">We didn't get it all out. The uranium was changed in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">part of it was changed in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">to</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> plutonium. And then that was in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the 100 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">rea. Or</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">yeah, the B A</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">rea an</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">d 100 Areas. And then in the 200 A</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">reas they separated the plutonium. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the plutonium was used to make the bomb. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> then</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> there we had tank farms.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> Oh,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I'm trying to think how many, 750,000 gallons or something like that. And we usually had 12 steel tanks. And we</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">would dig a hole way down deep. And these tanks were, I think, something like 75 feet in diameter. And we'd pour</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">a concrete base and then we'd build from there. And they would go up about 75 feet.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And then when they were all completed, then we'd backfill again. And then we'd have these tanks ready for the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">waste from the process that was going on there. And I think</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I don't remember just how many</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">but we had</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">maybe three or four tank farms. And I worked on those tank farms</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. I was known as the tank farm</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> engineer,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">something like that.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">So what did being a tank farm</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> engineer involve? Sort of, supervising?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, you have to have somebody there. We would have a contractor do the work. And we would have to see that</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">it was done properly, </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">check </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">everything that was done. And be very careful about the back filling and that sort of thing.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">So how long did you work the tank farms?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Oh, I think maybe two or three years, probably.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">What did you do after that?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, I have to think now.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> After that</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> I got involved mostly with</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">as we call it</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the project engineering. And with this</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">place there were always new facilities being created. And we call them a project. Maybe we would design this</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">project and then follow the construction of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">But there was considerable work being done all the time. And I was part of the project engineering work.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And so how long in all did you work at Hanford? When did you stop working?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Okay.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> I was 59, and that was in 1971, I think it was. And then I retired. And about a year later</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, why,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> they called me and</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">said, would you come </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">out and help us? And I said, no!</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> And then I thought about it a bit and I said, wait a minute,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">call me tomorrow. I'll think about it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And they called the next day</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> and I says, I'll come out and work about four months. And you know, I enjoyed it very</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">much. And the next year I went out again for four months</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. And I did that for four years!</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> Finally I got to the stage</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">where I said, no, I think I've gone long enough. It's now time for me to travel.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">So after that,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> why,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> then my wife and I traveled all over the world. We took three month tours and went around the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">world, down South America, and that sort of thing. And we loved that very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I want to go back to when you first came to Hanford in 1943, you mentioned that a lot of people stayed </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">for </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">just a little</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">while and left. What sorts of things were there to do for fun? Was there entertainment available? What sorts of</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">things happened here?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">they had a big place down at</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> Hanford itself. They built barracks for people. And they had, well, for one</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">thing in ten days they built a great big building which was the entertainment building. And they had</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> party—or</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> dances and</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">that sort of thing. And they had beer places around.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">People could buy a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> big</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> jar of beer. And they had lots of those. They had to have facilities here that would interest</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">people so they would stay. And they spent a lot of money on that to make interests for people.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Mm-hm. </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And you said when you first came you</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">did you stay in Pasco?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">No, let's s</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ee, I first stayed up at Grandv</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">iew. I stayed there and worked back and forth. Then I got a house in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Richland. And that was great, then. And I stayed there until I moved out to--</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">To Indiana?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, Indiana. Right.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And then when you came back in 1948, where did you</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">did you move into Richland?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, r</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ight in there. I got a house. I had</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> got a house practically right away.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">What was Richland like as a community in the 1940s?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, it wasn't a big town in the 1940s. Oh, you mean before we came out here?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">No, I mean when you were here.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">All right, when we were here</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">—see, </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I have to think a little bit. We had</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">—</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Woman one</span>: Hello?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: W</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">e had a number of stores</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Woman</span>: Hello? That’s okay, I’ll come back later.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: B</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ut Pasco had stores</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">and Kennewick had stores. And most of the shopping was done over in those areas. But we did, then, we had the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">C</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">C</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> Anderson place here.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And that was a place, they had good material in there that you could buy. It wasn't a very big shopping area here,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">but it was adequate. I would say that.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Did you go over to Kennewick and Pasco occasionally, then</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, to shop</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Oh, sure. Yeah. And the funny part of it was my daughter, when we got over to Kennewick, she said this is a real</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">city.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>:</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> It's </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">a little bit different than</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. But Richland was being built all the time and adding new facilities,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">new stores, </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">new</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> houses all the time, until it got to be a pretty good place.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">’ve</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> had a few people I talked to from that period talk about the dust storms. Was that an issue at all that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">remember?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yes, we had dust storms. And when we had a dust storm, we'd close the windows, of course. But there would be</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">dust all over the inside of your house. And that was the thing that sent quite a few people out of here. They'd have</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">a dust storm and then they'd leave.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">But it didn't bother us, we jus</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">t took those things in stride. We liked—b</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">y that time I liked it here. And when we came back on</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">the second time</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, we got this house, a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">nd right across the street was the school. My wife went over and said, I'm a</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">teacher, I have a master's degree,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> would like a job.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">She got a job as a fifth grade teacher just like that. </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">[LAUGHTER] </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And she taught there for 23 years.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And w</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">hat school was this?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">In f</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">ifth grade.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Do you remember which elementary school it was?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, it was Lewis and Clark. And we lived right across the street from there, right on the corner.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Oh, okay</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, did you have one of the alphabet homes?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, H house. And then the time came when we were able to buy that house. And that was wonderful, too. That</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">turned into a good deal for us.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Do you remember how much?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, I paid about $6,000 for it. Then I added. I did some construction on it. I added</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">enlarged the two</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">bedrooms. And when we sold it,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> boy,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> I don't mind saying</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> it</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, we sold it for $85,000. And made a return of say, like,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">$76,000 or $77,000. So that was a good thing for us.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">That's a pretty good deal.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Yeah, it was a very good deal. Yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">President Kennedy came out </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">here in 1963 to dedicate the N R</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">eactor. I wonder, were you there? Did you see him</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">when he came</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> at all</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I sure was there.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">What do yo</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">u remember about his visit here?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I don't remember anything about his speech. He just, as I recall, he emphasized the fact of the importance of this</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">work here. That was probably the main thing. And he tried to make us feel like we were really doing something</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">great for the country. And I guess we were.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">You and your whole</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">were your whole family out there as well?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Oh yeah, the whole family was there, yeah.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">A very special event.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">You see, they</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">it was wonderful for us to have that school there</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">. [LAUGHTER] Because</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> my wife could go over there and teach and</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">then get back in time. And when I got home the meals were ready.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">So I wanted to ask about security at Hanford. Did you have to have special clearance?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Oh yes, yes. Yes, w</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">e had to have Q clearance</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">, mm-hm</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Are there any other events that really stand out in your mind?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Any what?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Any events that stand out in your mind</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> or things that happened during the time you worked at Hanford that you</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">just thought were really interesting or important?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, I should remember, but my mind doesn't function like it should in that case. I don't know that there was</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">anything—i</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">mportant things that we had.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Overall, how was Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">How was what?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Hanford as a place to work?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Wonderful, as far as I was concerned.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And what was it about working there that made it wonderful for you?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, we worked out in</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> the area most the time. And</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> people</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">we all worked together. That was the thing, I</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">thi</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">nk, that was—t</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">hat we were all working together</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> helping to accomplish what we were set out to do there. Now my</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">mind doesn't work quite like it should.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Of the different jobs you had at Hanford, was there one that was a favorite for you, one that you really enjoy the</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">most?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">It wasn't the tank farm. That wasn't it. But I think the part I liked the best was in the latter part</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> we worked on</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">various projects. And the projects were our projects, so to speak. And we were interested in seeing that those</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">we probably designed them, worked out the design and then followed the construction of it.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">And we were just anxious to see how it worked out.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> or that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> in terms of</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">either working at Hanford or living in Richland</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> that you think would be important to talk about?</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, as I said, at my age here</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">,</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> my mind doesn't do quite what I hoped it would do.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">You're doing great.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, we just, oh, when we got, as far as the schools are concerned, we had such great sports here. Our</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">basketball team has won the state championship three times. They had won the state championship in football</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">once or twice. And this has ju</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">st been a very wonderful</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> sports area.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">We've had </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">quite a few basketball players that played well for colleges. And as I said, we won state championships</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">three times and got second place maybe three or four times. It was just wonderful sports. And we were always</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">--</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">my wife and I were always interested in sports. We would go to the other cities and that sort of thing.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">My son played on the basketball team.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Great. </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well, </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">I want to thank you very much for letting us talk to you today.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> And for sharing your memories. I really appreciate--</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">My mind doesn't work quite the way it should right now.</span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"> [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">It's working pretty darn well, myself. [LAUGHTER]</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Thank you, again. I really appreciate it.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Brinkman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Well I'm sure glad that if I have anything here that will be of some use to you, I'm sure happy to have helped out.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
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<div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX267983003">
<p class="Paragraph SCX267983003"><span class="TextRun SCX267983003"><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span class="TextRun SCX267983003">Absolutely. Thank you very much.</span><span class="EOP SCX267983003"> </span></p>
</div>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:35:01
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
193 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 East Area
100 Area
B Area
200 Area
N Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1943-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1943-1971
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963;
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Loris Brinkman
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Loris Brinkman conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Loris Brinkman passed away on August 1, 2017. <a href="http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tricityherald/obituary.aspx?n=loris-b-brinkman&pid=186392713">Obituary</a>.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-10-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Subject
The topic of the resource
Richland (Wash.)
Kennewick (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
200 Area
200 East Area
B Area
Hanford (Wash.)
Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963;
Kennewick (Wash.)
N Reactor
Pasco (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa3e95651e43280d6b38df2334d4b9bd7.jpg
93319f909b337694619c948c902056f2
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb112fda002fb452e9c33e5f26f96a121.mp4
04a2a869186085ff62fc580b54df4227
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
William Bair
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>Northwest Public Television | </span><span>Bair_William</span></strong></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span>Robert </span></span><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Let's start by just having you say and spell your name.</span></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span>William </span></span><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>:</span><span> Okay.</span><span> William Bair</span><span>, </span><span>B-A-I-R.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Great, and my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 14</span><span>th</span><span> of 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I thought maybe we could start by having you first tell us what brought you to Hanford, how and when you arrived here.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Okay</span><span>, well, actually it's kind of ironic because I wouldn't be here or anywhere if it were not for the atomic bomb and the plutonium</span><span> that was</span><span> produced here at Hanford. I was in the infantry during World War II in Czechoslovakia, and when the war was over in Europe, we were shipped to the Pacific. We had been trained for amphibious warfare, and when</span><span> problems</span><span> got tough over in Europe, they shipped us to Europe instead. </span><span>So we were prepared </span><span>and trained for Pacific warfare. And</span><span> we got down to the Pacific, of course, the bombs had been dropped, and instead of going into Japan as an invasion army, we went in as an army of occupation. I have a few things I remember, but I think I should tell people that is when we got down to the Pacific, as far as I could see, there were ships. The ocean was just covered with ships prepared for the invasion</span><span>--</span><span>unbelievable. </span><span>And then when we get into Japan, we had an opportunity to see what they had prepared for us. The division I was in was responsible for destroying a lot of the muniti</span><span>ons, particularly naval munition</span><span>s that had been stored and ready for the invasion. And a friend and I were sent up in the mountains in Japan. We took over a warehouse that was just full of rifles and all kinds of small arms. So the Japanese were really prepared for us. </span><span>And I think people should know that, that if we had an invasion, if we had to go in through an invasion, there would have been a terrible loss of life from both sides. The Japanese people would have suffered immensely, and certainly the invasion forces would have suffered. So if anybody wants to argue the point for whether the bomb should have been dropped, I'm happy to take them on.</span><span> Okay</span><span>, how I got here</span><span>--</span><span>after I got out of the service, I went to Ohio Wesleyan University, got a degree in chemistry, and happened to walk by a bulletin board when I was a senior. I read a notice for fellowships in radiological physics. And I really didn't know a thing about radiological physics. I had applied for graduate school at Ohio State University and was accepted there, but I thought, well, I'll just check this out. </span><span>So I had to take an exam and pass it and was notified that I had gotten a scholarship or a fellowship at the University of Rochester Medical School. What the training really was health physics. It was the first fellowship classes being funded by the Atomic Energy Commission, at that time, for training in health physics. So I took that for the first year and had some summer training at Brookhaven National Laboratory. </span><span>And one of the professors, Newell Stannard, by name, asked me if I wanted to stay on as a graduate student and, sure, why not? I still had some GI Bill time left, and so I decided to use it, and so I was there working on a PhD until 1954 and then looking for a job. Well, one of </span><span>my lab mates had worked here, Hoyt Whipple, h</span><span>e worked for Parker and had left there and gone back to Rochester. Turns out, his father was Dean of the Medical School at Rochester, so I thought he had an interest in going back there. B</span><span>ut anyway, I checked around. I had an offer at </span><span>Oak Ridge,</span><span> another at </span><span>Yale, and one out here. And</span><span> actually it wasn't always the positive, the comments I got about here, but they offered more money, and my wife was pregnant at the time, so that made a big difference. And so that's how I got out here.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Oh, okay. </span><span>Now I want to ask a little bit more about that program at Rochester. So this was a fairly new program?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Yes, I was in the second class.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Okay. </span><span>And so were you one of the first doctoral students there?</span></div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Well, the radiation biology was totally new. In fact, when I started that program, they did not have it authorized, and I was in the physiology department at medical school for a couple years until they got it authorized. Now I did receive the first PhD in Radiation Biology there and, I think, in the world. Dr. Stannard always claimed that that was the first one in the world, so I won't argue with him.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>[LAUGHTER] </span><span>You</span><span> said you arrived in Hanford in 1954.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Yeah, in September '54.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: And what were your first impressions of the area?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Well, it was kind of interesting</span><span>. A</span><span>t first, having come from Rochester, New Yor</span><span>k and lived in Ohio before that,</span><span> I was amazed to see the big river here w</span><span>ith no trees along the shore. I think</span><span> my first impression, it seemed impossible. So anyway, it was obviously a company town, and that didn't bother me. It wasn't unattractive. Nothing was really negative about it, I can remember anyway. I think that the most negative comment I took back to </span><span>Barbara was the fact that—</span><span>the lack of trees. </span><span>Her father actually was supportive of me coming here because he had been a comptroller at the General Motors plant in Rochester, New York, so he was a company man. So when he found out that General Electric was </span><span>operating this plant, why</span><span>, nothing wrong with that.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> He approved.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Right, he approved.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So you mentioned Richland was a company town sort of place. What was the hous</span><span>ing situation at the time? </span><span>Were </span><span>you able to find housing right away?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, no, all the housing was controlled. There were two types of housin</span><span>g. O</span><span>ne, certainly, owned by the </span><span>government, built by government. Then there was another, I think maybe, two de</span><span>velopments, one called Richland </span><span>Village. Do you know where Richland Village is located?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Mm-hm.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>:</span><span> That had just been built. It w</span><span>as built, I think, by a private </span><span>company, but I think </span><span>underwritten</span><span> by the government in some way. And so we took one of those. </span><span>In fact, we didn't have a chance at one of the government houses. But after a year there, we did have an</span><span>opportunity to move into a B house in South Ric</span><span>hland, and we lived there until</span><span> the houses were sold. I </span><span>can't remember what year that was, but</span><span>--</span><span>and we actually bought the</span><span> B house and</span><span> conver</span><span>ted it to a single unit because </span><span>we had, by that time, two boys and another one on the way, I think, so we needed more room.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And do you remember how much you paid for that B house?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>I don't, but not very much</span><span>--</span><span>$4,000 or $5,000 maybe. I don't know. I think we so</span><span>ld it for $15,000, so we made a </span><span>little money on it.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So when you came to Hanford then, what sort of work were you doing? Where</span><span> were you, and what part of the </span><span>area were you in?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, I was I trained as a radiation biologist, and so I was hired by Frank Hungate to </span><span>work with him in cellular level </span><span>studies. Actually we were trying to understand the mechanism for radiation causin</span><span>g health effects. And so it was </span><span>really a pretty basic research. It was genetics, mutagenesis kind of studies I was</span><span> doing. The theory that we were </span><span>looking into was whether a radioisotope and carbon </span>genetic<span> mate</span><span>rial, when it decayed, it would </span><span>become another element. And in that process, whether it would actually cau</span><span>se a mutation. We had no really </span><span>pos</span><span>itive, but we had some very successive</span><span> results, but it didn't, certainly, make a big impact on the field. </span><span>And then, after I was there two years</span><span>--</span><span>Barb and I'd agreed that we would stay at lea</span><span>st</span><span> two years;</span><span> that we felt that </span><span>was had to</span><span>--</span><span>you make a commitment. It's got to have some</span><span>--</span><span>we were</span><span>n’t</span><span> about to jump ship right away</span><span> just because </span><span>of the dust storms. I did have an offer from the University of Illinois back in Champa</span><span>ign, and it would be setting up </span><span>a new program there on the campus. Fortunately or unfortunately, whichever way y</span><span>ou want to look at it, Barb and </span><span>I went back for an interview in August. Have you ever been to Illinois in August?</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I lived in Illinois for a couple of years, so, yes.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Oh, okay. H</span><span>umid, hay fever season</span><span>--</span><span>Barb and I were a mess.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> And so we came back, </span><span>and I did receive an offer from </span><span>them. But about that time, the person who was leading the inhalation toxicology pro</span><span>gram out here at the site died, </span><span>and so they were replacing him. </span><span>And since I'd been at the University of Rochester, where much of the p</span><span>ioneering work had been done on </span><span>inhalation of uranium, things like that, they assumed that I knew something about </span><span>it. And they offered me the job </span><span>to stay on and manage that program. Well, with the</span><span> hay fever situation—</span><span>it was a good job</span><span>. I hated to turn it down, in a </span><span>way, but we did, and so we stayed.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Do you remember the name of the person who ran the inhalation toxicology before?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Ralph Wager.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Wager.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Wager</span><span>--</span><span>W-A-G-E-R. He was a physician. I had I met him, but he didn't live much long</span><span>er after I got here. I think he </span><span>was a very capable person.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So how large was the inhalation toxicology program? How many people were involved in that?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>When I took it over, </span><span>there was three and a secretary. [LAUGHTER] A</span><span>nd I was the only PhD.</span><span> The other two were</span><span>--</span><span>one had a </span><span>master's degree. I'm not sure the other one did. And then I think that's all. So we started o</span><span>ut scratch. These were </span><span>good guys. Really, I couldn't have been better off. I couldn't have asked for better</span><span> people to start out a program, </span><span>even though they didn't have</span><span> the degrees. </span><span>Lou Temple had studied histology. He was very good. He would qualify for a lot of pathol</span><span>ogy work. And Don Willard</span><span> was a, I think, he was probably a primary chemist, but he was a</span><span>--</span><span>do you know the term Rube Goldberg?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Mm-hmm.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Okay</span><span>, he was a Rube Goldberg. Yo</span><span>u'd tell him what you wanted, he’d</span><span> make it h</span><span>appen. He could do all kinds of </span><span>things with nothing</span><span>, in the shop or the</span><span> lab or whatever. And we were inventing new terr</span><span>itory. There was no technology, </span><span>no publications showing us how to develop the technology, to build the technolo</span><span>gy, to expose animals to highly </span><span>radioactive materials, which we had to do. And so he was largely responsible for putti</span><span>ng all that stuff together. And </span><span>engineers would look at him and shake their head, the trained engineers, but they couldn't do it. He could.</span><span> [LAUGHTER] </span><span>But we had a lot of help from other </span><span>people on site. There were aerosol physicists </span><span>working in other programs; t</span><span>hey </span><span>were able to help us. One good thing about the lab at that time was that they really b</span><span>elieved in statistics, and they </span><span>had statisticians assigned to us. And I'd come from the University of Rochester, where they real</span><span>ly did preach the </span><span>value of statistics</span><span> in</span><span> doing your research. You talk to a statistician before you </span><span>start your experiment. You have </span><span>them involved in designing your experiment, and that way they are way </span>ahe<span>ad of the game when it comes to </span><span>interpreting the results. </span><span>So anyway, that's how we got started. We had a certain advantage, in sense. We h</span><span>ad, at that time, a program out </span><span>there where we had military veterinarians coming in for training programs. So that</span><span> gave us an opportunity to have </span><span>an extra set of very qualified hands, and so we had and several veterinarians working with us on the program. </span><span>And I think that</span><span>--</span><span>I can't remember the first one I hired. I think I hired a physiolog</span><span>ist, a PhD physiologist. Then I </span><span>needed a veterinarian because, I think, the military program was closing down. A</span><span>nd I had a friend at Ohio State </span><span>University. He had been a fraternity brother at Ohio Wesleyan, so I called him. H</span><span>e was at the vet school at Ohio </span><span>State, and I asked him if he had any graduates who might be candidates for a job. </span><span>Well, he had several, and so I went back to Columbus to int</span><span>erview these guys. A</span><span>n</span><span>d one, Jim Park was, I thought, </span><span>the best one. He didn't have the best grades, but he was just came across as</span><span> being the person I wanted. But </span><span>there was a little bit of a problem, I thought</span><span>—</span><span>possible problem. He came from</span><span> my hometown. And you know, you </span><span>hir</span><span>e somebody from your hometown, i</span><span>t doesn't work out. The town, probably 8,</span><span>000 or 10,000 people, word gets </span><span>around. </span><span>So anyway, I decided to take a chance. He decided to also take a chance, and it </span><span>was probably</span><span> one of</span><span> the best decisions </span><span>as a manager I ever made because he worked out very well. In fact, he worked on unt</span><span>il he retired. In fact, he just </span><span>died this last January.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>It was Jim Park?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Jim Park, yeah.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So what was the home town? Where was it?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Bellefontaine</span><span>, Ohio. Do you know that area?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I do not know that area. I was born in Ohio, but I don't know where that is.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Okay</span><span>, well, it's between Lima and Dayton</span><span>, right</span><span> in a straight line.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So you said that this group started out very small. How much did it grow during the time that you were--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, during the time I manage</span><span>d that, which was probably ‘til</span><span> about '68, I </span><span>know we must have had</span><span>--</span><span>I can't </span><span>remember</span><span>--</span><span>maybe ten</span><span>, 15 people probably. I'd had foreign scientists visiting. I had one from Turkey, anot</span><span>her from </span><span>Japan during that period. That's probably about right.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And so, the inhalation toxicology program, I guess, could you explain what</span><span> sorts of things you were doing? </span><span>E</span><span>xperiments and studies, whatever--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Sure, well, it turns out that the most</span><span> common—the most</span><span> frequent way people were being exposed</span><span> on the plant—</span><span>the workers being </span><span>exposed on a plant to things like plutonium, particularly, was by inhalation</span><span>--</span><span>airbo</span><span>rne plutonium in the processing </span><span>plant and everywhere else they worked with it. And so not much w</span><span>as known about plutonium</span><span> at the ti</span><span>me, essentially </span><span>nothing, because it's a new element. </span><span>And there'd been injection studied at Berkeley, California at University California</span><span>,</span><span> B</span><span>erkeley and other places, where </span><span>they took amounts and injected it into experimental animals intravenously and sometime</span><span>s just </span><span>through</span><span> the skin. These </span><span>were not really duplicating the kind of exposure that people were having, because the people were breathing it. </span><span>And so we had to do some research to find out where it goes and what the effects might be. </span><span>At that time, we</span><span>--</span><span>I say we, meaning the scientific community</span><span>--</span><span>suspected that th</span><span>ings like plutonium would cause </span><span>lung cancer, but there was no experimental evidence, and no human subjects,</span><span> there were no</span><span> h</span><span>uman exposures that</span><span> had</span><span> ever result</span><span>ed </span><span>in lung cancer. The main evidence we had for radiation causing lung cancer o</span><span>ccurred in miners, particularly </span><span>starting in Germany and Czechoslovakia. </span><span>The hard rock miners were developing </span>lung cancer beginning way back in turn of t<span>he century. And it wasn't until </span><span>the 1920s they finally identified it was radon, the radioactive radon gas. It w</span><span>as causing lung cancer in these </span><span>miners. So then, of course, with the development of the atomic energy program in</span><span> the United States, there was a </span><span>lot of uranium mining going on, and they were already beginning to see evidence of increas</span><span>ing lung cancer in </span><span>some of the miners</span><span> down</span><span> in Utah and places like that. </span><span>So there was reason to be suspicious, but there was no experimental evidence t</span><span>hat it would happen. And so our </span><span>studies there actually with beagle dogs showed that </span><span>actually you could in</span><span>hale enough plutonium to cause </span><span>lung cancer. And I say enough, because we certainly showed that very small amou</span><span>nts would not do it. You had to </span><span>reach some</span><span>--</span><span>I can't</span><span>--</span><span>you want to use the word threshold,</span><span> but we don't know whether that's right, but some leve</span><span>l </span><span>amount before we would see those kinds of effects occurring. </span><span>Our first studies were with mice. We actually put radioactive material and injected it into their trachea, and we had </span><span>no effects there in those cases. As I said, we h</span><span>ad the Air Force and </span><span>military veterin</span><span>arians on site. One of them was </span><span>Jack Healey, who was then returned back to Sandia base. </span><span>And then Air Force was very interested in plutonium for obvious reasons, beca</span><span>use they carried weapons around </span><span>that contained plutonium. And they contracted us to do some studies on the e</span><span>arly e</span><span>ffects of people inhaling </span><span>plutonium oxide, the weapons grade plutonium. And they wanted us to use beagle dogs. </span><span>Beagle dogs were an i</span><span>deal experimental animal. They had been used at Cornell Uni</span><span>versity </span><span>in studies there. T</span><span>here </span><span>was a big study at Utah, in which they were actually injecting plutonium and </span><span>uranium and thorium into beagle </span><span>dogs. Down at Davis, California, a veterinary school there, they had a larg</span><span>e program using beagle dogs for </span><span>external radiation. So beagle dogs were an ideal animal for research. </span><span>So we did sign the contract with the Air Force to start the study with beagle dogs.</span><span> And I think about two or three </span><span>years in the study, we found the first lung cancer. And the lung cancer was rather unique because it was rather</span><span>—it </span><span>occ</span><span>urred down deep in the lungs where</span><span> the plutonium was located. </span><span>Plutonium is an alpha emitter. The radiation from plutonium only travels a few c</span><span>ell diameters. So wherever that </span><span>material is located, the tissue around that's going to be pretty heavy irradiated. So if you have too much </span><span>there, </span><span>you're going to kill the cells. But if you don't have enough there, you're lessening t</span><span>he chance of having the kind of </span><span>reaction that would result in the cancer occurring down the road. </span><span>We'd had other findings. We found that one of the early effects of inhaling</span><span> something like plutonium was a </span><span>decrease in the circulating lymphocytes. And I don't think we ever have wo</span><span>rked out the mechanism for that </span><span>happening, but amongst all these animals that had a sufficient amount of plutoni</span><span>um would show an early decrease </span><span>in the circulating lymphocytes. </span><span>Now I'll just stop here a second. I mentioned Frank Hungate who hired me. He wa</span><span>s working there, working at the </span><span>time, and we had discussions about that and thought, well, maybe this could be used in some helpful way. </span><span>Thought that if you could use this in some way to knock down the lympho</span><span>cytes and knock down the immune </span><span>system in organ transplant people or even treat leukemia patients, it would </span><span>be worth looking into. So Frank </span><span>Hungate did develop an implantable blood irradiator that had radioisotopes in it and </span><span>that you could actually implant </span><span>into a person and run the blood vessel through it, so you're irradiating on a continuous basis the circulating blood. </span><span>He had that and implanted it in</span><span> dogs and in goats. He had had</span><span> considerable int</span><span>erest from the commissions, but </span><span>not </span><span>enough money was put up to take it much further than that. So it never got into cl</span><span>inical trials. Anyway, that's a </span><span>spin-off from that kind of research. A</span><span>nother we found, too, is that the plutonium was very insoluble, and so it was just </span><span>like an insoluble metal. And it </span><span>would accumulate when it was inhaled into the lungs. The clearance mec</span><span>hanism would actually move that </span><span>plutonium into the lymph </span><span>nodes. There are a number of lymph nodes throughout th</span><span>e lungs of man, but most of the </span><span>effective ones are right around the bifurcation of the bronchi. </span><span>And we found that the concentration of plutonium in these lymph nodes was, after a short time, was much higher</span><span>than the concentration in any of the tissue of the lungs. So this was a mechanism to protect the individual because </span><span>we ne</span><span>ver saw any primary cancers</span><span> originating in lymphatic </span><span>tissue in any animal. So we had </span><span>thousands of animals in our experiment. So that was a very interesting finding. </span><span>And while I'm on the subject of plutonium, we also </span>did some studies with plutoniu<span>m-</span><span>238, which is another isotope </span><span>of plutonium</span><span>. The 239 is used in the weapons, and the 238 is a shorter half-life plu</span><span>tonium. The p</span><span>lutonium-</span><span>239 has a </span><span>half-life of about 24,000 years. So, in a sense, it's not </span><span>very radioactive. But plutonium-</span><span>2</span><span>38 has a half-life</span><span>, I think,</span><span> of </span><span>something like 80 years. It's very reactive</span><span>--</span><span>radioactive. In fact, it's</span><span> so radioactive that it's hot, thermally hot</span><span>. </span><span>And if you take a particle of i</span><span>t—and we did see this frequently—</span><span>and have it in a pl</span><span>astic, like Plexiglas, it would </span><span>actually melt down into that,</span><span> it was so hot. </span><span>We did experiments with some of those particles, and they essentially melted tissue, but I don't think we ev</span><span>er saw </span><span>any serious effects of the material. But the interesting thing about plutoniu</span><span>m-</span><span>238 was when you had the same </span><span>form, oxide form, insoluble form, and animals inhaled it, it did not remain in the lungs or lymph nodes very long. </span><span>More of it started to become soluble and move to the liver and other tissues like the skeleton. </span><span>Well, at that time, this is in the early '60s, NASA and the Air Force were using pl</span><span>utonium-</span><span>238 as a heat source in </span><span>thermoelectric generators. They use them in space vehicles. They use solar panels</span><span> for some of them, but this was </span><span>a source that could be totally contained in</span><span> a</span><span> space vehicle. In fact, a number of</span><span> those out in space are powered </span><span>with plutonium-</span><span>238.</span><span> But they'd had—</span><span>when they first started that program, they had a failure or two. </span><span>I think one of them is called a </span><span>SNAP device.</span><span> I don't</span><span> remember what that stands for—</span><span>Space Nuclear something </span><span>Program. But it </span><span>burned up on </span><span>reentry out in the Pacific, and</span><span> the fuel at that time was pretty soluble, and it just spread all over the Earth.</span><span> Everybody </span><span>inhaled it</span><span>--</span><span>very small amounts. It's like fallout from weapons testing. </span><span>And when we began to show them what</span><span> the problem was with plutonium-</span><span>238 o</span><span>xides, they decided they</span><span>’d</span><span> better </span><span>change </span><span>their fuel source. And from there</span><span>, they developed another one. It was act</span><span>ually a ceramic that was almost </span><span>indestructible. It would withstand high temperature fires. So we did contribute to</span><span>--</span><span>ou</span><span>r results did contribute to the </span><span>space prog</span><span>ram and to the use of plutonium-</span><span>238 as a heat source in these thermoelectric generators.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I was going to ask you about—so, </span><span>how were these inhalation experiments conducted</span><span> in terms of the dogs? How were </span><span>they</span><span>--</span><span>how </span><span>did they inhale the—I guess what were the specifics of that?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Okay. All right, well, like I said already, w</span><span>e had to develop all this technology. An</span><span>d the important issue—</span><span>well, several import</span><span>ant issues--</span><span>one, we had to do it without contaminating ourselves, and the second is we w</span><span>anted to be able to control the </span><span>amount they inhaled or at least to be able to measure it. First thing, it meant that in</span><span> order to protect ourselves, we </span><span>had to do it within a glove</span><span>box containment of some kind. So we had to work thro</span><span>ugh gloves and all that kind of </span><span>stuff. </span><span>So then first, we started working with rodents, and we started mostly with mice </span><span>and then rats. We got a plastic </span><span>cylinder. We had good shops here at Hanford. They would build a plastic cylinder, </span><span>probably that much in diameter, </span><span>any height we wanted. And then we'd drill holes all around.</span><span> The aerosol would be administered </span><span>at the top, and we had a continuous airf</span><span>low through it, and the exhaust </span><span>would go through several different kinds of filters </span><span>to make sure that none of it got o</span><span>ut. Then we found that in order </span><span>to contain the rats, for example, there was nothing better than the old fashion</span><span>ed Coke bottle. You know what I </span><span>talking about</span><span>--</span><span>the Coke? Okay</span><span>, well, we cut the bottoms off the Coke bottles, and th</span><span>at expanded area just was ideal </span><span>for the lungs area of the rats. </span><span>So we could put the rat in the bottle, put a rubber stopper in the back, and they wer</span><span>e totally comfortable and could </span><span>breathe very easily. And then we just plugged these bottles into these holes in th</span><span>e chamber. And then, of course, </span><span>we collected aerosol samples during all this time, so we could actually get </span><span>some idea of how much they were </span><span>breathing. </span><span>And then we also collected samples that we could characterize in terms of parti</span><span>cle size. And that's one of the </span><span>findings we did come up with, and we found that the particle size, the size of these p</span><span>articles, had a lot to do where </span><span>the material deposited in the lungs and how long they stayed there and so forth.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So how did that work with the dogs then?</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>And with the dogs. W</span><span>e taught the dogs to sit with a mask on their face, and the</span><span> mask then was connected to the </span><span>chamber. And the dogs were in their own little glov</span><span>e</span><span>box, actually, attached to the main glove box, whi</span><span>ch had the </span><span>aerosol chamber around it. </span><span>Dogs are really lovely to train. You can train them to d</span><span>o anything, if you want to, and </span><span>we had so many veterinarians around. And actually the lifespan</span><span>--</span><span>the</span><span> average</span><span> lifespan of our dogs, even the </span><span>ones on experiment, far exceeded the average lifespan of dogs in the public </span><span>sector because they had so much </span><span>care, and they had</span><span>--</span><span>well, some of them had weekly physical exams and 24/7 care.</span></div>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Bauman</span>: </span><span>And so how long were you inv</span><span>olved, then, with the</span><span> inhalation</span><span> toxicology</span><span>, running that program?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, I think about it was about 1968 when Dr. Kornberg moved to another positi</span><span>on. Dr. Kornberg had been hired </span><span>by Herb Parker in 1947 to come here and take over the management of the bio</span><span>logy program. This included the </span><span>health and enviro</span><span>nmental sciences. And in about 1968</span><span>, he took another position in th</span><span>e laboratory, and by that time, </span><span>Battelle</span><span> had come in and replaced General Electric. And I was fortunate en</span><span>ough to replace Dr. Kornberg as </span><span>manager of the biology department, and that's when my hands-on research kind of went down the tube.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span>So</span><span> how large of</span><span> a department was that then in 19</span><span>68?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>I don't know. I would say</span><span>--</span><span>I think I have it on my cheat</span><span>sheet, okay?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: That’s fine.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>:</span><span> Actually, I didn't think </span><span>about that. Yes, 214 people, or </span><span>200 people. And started out with a size of a group, I said here was two, and it grew</span><span> to about 21 when they left the </span><span>program.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And so you said you weren't really doing research yourself then.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>No, I was shuffling papers then. But I still wrote papers and certainly was worki</span><span>ng with the scientists who were </span><span>doing the hands-on stuff, obviously.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Yeah, so what sorts of things was the department doing in general?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>When Battelle</span><span> came in, things changed quite a bit. Before that, almost all of our research was directed toward </span><span>Hanford production problems. I sho</span><span>uld mention a few, if it's okay</span><span>. I think some of the most important work had to </span><span>do with developing biokinetic models for the radionuclides. We had to </span><span>develop</span><span>--</span><span>t</span><span>he protection was based on dose </span><span>to peo</span><span>ple and individual organs. S</span><span>o</span><span>,</span><span> they had to develop models to describe where </span><span>the </span><span>radioact</span><span>ive materials would </span><span>go when the</span><span>y</span><span> went into the body. So a lot of work was done to develop these models. </span><span>Another big program was in studying the ingestion of radioactive materials like p</span><span>lutonium. It was necessarily to </span><span>know what percentage, what fraction of the material that you ate </span><span>and </span><span>went through GI tr</span><span>act would be absorbed. It turns </span><span>out that you can eat a lot of plutonium without having very much of it go into your bo</span><span>dy. I think I</span><span> tried to duplicate </span><span>with some material,</span><span> once</span><span>, </span><span>a big chunk</span><span> before you'd ever have any health effects </span><span>resulting from it. It's just so </span><span>insoluble. </span><span>Then another major program was developing methods to treat people who migh</span><span>t be contaminated. We called it </span><span>decorporation, trying to remo</span><span>ve the—particularly plutonium—traces </span><span>in the body'</span><span>s tissues. It's there. It's </span><span>staying. You have to go to extreme means sometimes to get it to move out and </span><span>excrete it. And that's what you </span><span>want to do because you're reducing the dose in the process. </span><span>So that really started pretty early on in the</span><span> early '50s and then by John </span><span>Blu</span><span>e</span><span> and several others. Morris </span><span>Sullivan came on about same time I did, and he kind of latched onto ingestio</span><span>n route of intake, studying the </span><span>absorption across the gut wall, and also e</span><span>ffects of ingestion of radioactive materials. That </span><span>contributed a lot to </span><span>the models used today. You'll see his papers referenced in many of the </span>publications. <span>Then the other was, as I mentioned, decorporation. The program was started on </span><span>a small scale before I arrived, </span><span>and another scientist</span><span>,</span><span> Vic Smith</span><span>,</span><span> arrived shortly afterwards. He was from Mont</span><span>ana. He was a chemist and still </span><span>here, incidentally. He went on and started working</span><span> on</span><span> that program and was v</span><span>ery successful, and it was very </span><span>important. It really paid off w</span><span>hen we had that accident out at th</span><span>e 200 A</span><span>reas, when a man by McClu</span><span>sk</span><span>ey was exposed to a big dose of </span><span>americium. Vic</span><span> Smith synthesized the DTPA, the drug to treat this man. So it</span><span> really couldn't have been more </span><span>timely. We had a guy here who could synthesize the drug and tailor fit it to the treatment. And </span><span>actually </span><span>t</span><span>oday, it is the </span><span>recognized treatment for any int</span><span>ake, accidental intake of many heavy elements </span><span>like plutonium.</span> </p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And so you were</span><span>—</span><span>you directed the biology department beginning in 1968?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Yeah, I think it was about that time.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>How long did you do that</span><span>, then</span><span>?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>I'm using my cheat</span><span>sheet here. I can't remember. Yeah, it's about 1973.</span><span> Okay</span><span>, 1973, then it changed. The </span><span>department was actually</span><span>--</span><span>I can't remember if </span><span>it </span><span>was </span><span>still </span><span>the AEC then or not. I think </span><span>it might have been. They wanted </span><span>somebody whose</span><span> full attention would be paid to their programs here. So</span><span>--[COUGH] excuse me. M</span><span>aybe I </span><span>should take a break and you can </span><span>edit this out. </span><span>They wanted somebody, I said, to have a full sense, a full-time responsibility of paying attention to their programs. </span><span>And so Ed Alpen, who was the director at that time, convinced me that I should be the one to do that. And initially, </span><span>I actually went back and worked half time at Germantown headquarters. That was not a good time for us. We had </span><span>two boys in high school and another one in junior high school. It was a tough time for Barbara e</span><span>specially</span><span>,</span><span> because I </span><span>would fly back to Washington, work for two weeks, come back here for two weeks,</span><span> back and forth,</span><span> and</span><span> back and forth </span><span>for</span><span>—gosh—</span><span>over a half a year. </span><span>And then, finally, I took the position. By that time, they had a </span><span>replacement for me as manager of the bio department</span><span>, </span><span>because I was actually doing, I think, three jobs at the time. And so then I was full-ti</span><span>me director of the Life Science </span><span>program, which included the environmental programs, the atmospheric sciences</span><span>--</span><span>everything that they funded. </span><span>And </span><span>I did that for several years—</span><span>for a long time actually. </span><span>Well, t</span><span>he title changed and some of the other things changed with it, but I did essent</span><span>ially that same job until about </span><span>1986, when they reorganized and the </span><span>Life Sciences Center was formed, a</span><span>nd I assumed responsibility f</span><span>or the Life </span><span>Sciences. </span><span>A</span><span>nd that included toxicology, health physics, epidemiology, molecular b</span><span>iology, did I say toxicology?—</span><span>some radiological physics. It was a broad-base health</span><span>, medical program. It included considerable </span><span>medical </span><span>research too.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>That must have been a fairly large group.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>I think I had something like 500 people.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And you did that until when?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>I did that until—</span><span>well, I was trying to retire, but</span><span>,</span><span> why, they wouldn't let me retire until t</span><span>hey got a replacement. And so I </span><span>think I did that until '94, I think it was. I should send say something about Bill Wiley. Do you know the name?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Sure, yeah.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Bill Wiley was a biologist. He was a molecular biologist. And I was manager of the </span><span>biology department at the time, </span><span>and his supervisor, his boss of that section, was </span><span>moved to Seattle, up to the Battelle</span><span> Center at Seattle. Yeah, it </span><span>was the doings of people back in Columbus, the Indians,</span><span> somebody over there. So he went over there. </span><span>So I needed a replacement, so I twisted Bill Wiley's arm to take that job. He didn't</span><span> want do it. [LAUGHTER] But I finally</span><span> convinced </span><span>him, that was the thing to do. And so I </span>really lost a good scientist, but obviously <span>the laboratory at Hanford got a </span><span>darn good manager, and that worked out well. Eventually, I think he resigned himself to it, and was happ</span><span>y it went </span><span>that way.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So I was going to ask you a few questions. At some point, Hanford shifted from </span><span>focus on production to focus on </span><span>cleanup.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Mm-hmm.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I was wondering how that shift impacted the sorts o</span><span>f things you did, or the people who were </span><span>working with you at all?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>No, I pretty much</span><span>--</span><span>I don't remember much of that happening until after I left. I k</span><span>now there was</span><span> some concern out </span><span>at the Tank F</span><span>arm because there was some toxic gases coming off, and they were inte</span><span>rested in our helping to try to </span><span>identify them. But the cleanup hadn't really gotten</span><span>--</span><span>at lea</span><span>st we were not involved in the--</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>If I go back a little farther, President Kennedy visited Hanford in 1963.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Who?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>President Kennedy.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Okay</span><span>.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I wondered if you had </span><span>memories of his visit at all—were you here, did you go to that</span><span>?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>No, I don't really</span><span>--</span><span>no, I don't remember much about that time. I can't remembe</span><span>r. I remember his coming, but I </span><span>don't remember</span><span>--</span><span>I didn't see him.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Okay</span><span>. W</span><span>hat do you think were the most challenging aspects of the work you did at H</span><span>anford, and then what were sort </span><span>of the most rewarding parts of it?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, probably the most challenging probably was not the science. It was what you </span><span>had to put with as a manager.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> I </span><span>think I was happier as a scientist than I was as a manager. I probably ticked o</span><span>ff a lot of the people who were </span><span>providing support. Because I was probably not—t</span><span>hey probably didn't view me as the most cooperative in m</span><span>any ways. B</span><span>ut it was frequently </span><span>frustrating. I know I had considerable issues with the team at salary tim</span><span>e, because people in the salary </span><span>administration didn't always agree with my assessment of performances of some of my</span><span> staff. So I had to fight a lot </span><span>of battles there. </span><span>I had some successes. One of them I have to tell you about is that during</span><span> the '60s, we were out at 100-</span><span>F </span><span>A</span><span>rea; t</span><span>he b</span><span>iology labs were out there. A</span><span>nd during the '60s we were really trying to ge</span><span>t new laboratories built in the </span><span>300 A</span><span>reas. And we ha</span><span>d everything going great for us,</span><span> a design and everything,</span><span> and all we needed done was the </span><span>final authorization, the money. And it was around Christmas time. I don't remember exactly </span><span>which year it was now</span><span>--</span><span>probably, I can't remember, '68, '69 maybe, </span><span>'70</span><span>. </span><span>The local Kiwanis Club met at our house </span><span>for a Christmas party. And Sam Volpentest</span><span> was there. Do you know </span><span>the name Sam Volpentest</span><span>? And he came up and said, Bill, how's that new labo</span><span>ratory coming? And I said, it </span><span>wasn't. I said that Nixon had sequestered the funds. You know the name sequeste</span><span>r, that word? I don't think I'd </span><span>heard it.</span><span> I'd never heard it before that, or</span><span> I don't think I've heard it since then until recently. </span><span>But the money was sequestered by Nixon. Well, Sam said, well, you know, I'm</span><span> going to be in Washington next </span><span>week. I'll see what I can do. And I think it was within two weeks, that money w</span><span>as turned loose, and we got our </span><span>building. He made a believer out of me</span><span>,</span><span> and probably a lot of other people thou</span><span>gh the years. </span><span>So, </span><span>I felt that was a </span><span>success.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Any other events that stand out to yo</span><span>u as look back at your years </span><span>at the Han</span><span>ford </span><span>or incidents </span>or strange <span>occurrences or unique things that kind of happened?</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, I know we had a few threats of a union strike. And since we were way o</span><span>ut there, we spent a few nights </span><span>sleeping on the autopsy table because we had to have somebody there in </span><span>case something happened. But it </span><span>wasn't until much later though, that we had any union members, the animal caretake</span><span>rs, I think, not until after we </span><span>moved in here did they</span><span> join the union. So most of the people working out there, scientists, scientific staff, were not union.</span><span> But the</span><span> craftsmen were, so we dealt with them. We had no problems working with those people.</span><span> We just had </span><span>to obey the rules. </span><span>I r</span><span>emember one situation. We were—</span><span>well, we talked about beagle dogs. I'll tell yo</span><span>u how we got those. At first we </span><span>tried buying them. And when you buy anything in the government, you have to go out and bid, and the lowest bid </span><span>wins. Well, I remember one shipment of dogs came in</span><span>—</span><span>beagle dogs came in. Those dogs are about that high. </span><span>They had the longest legs of any beagles I'd ever seen or could even imagine. I don't know what they were called. </span><span>So we shipped those back. </span><span>But after a few epi</span><span>sodes like that, we decided</span><span> we had to raise our ow</span><span>n dogs, so we developed our own </span><span>colony. We had three strains of beagles. We got some from Davis, California. A</span><span>ctually, Washington State had a </span><span>beagle colony over there,</span><span> I forgot to mention that. And we got another source from I ca</span><span>n't remember where else. We had </span><span>three strains, so we can minimize the inbreeding, and we did have a geneticist d</span><span>own in Portland who would guide </span><span>us in our breeding program so we wouldn't have any problems that way.</span><span> Let’s see. </span><span>What else was I going to mention? I can't remember now what else.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Woman one</span>: Bill, can I ask you something?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Yeah.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Woman one</span>: </span><span>So Gary Peterson always tells me to ask you about the alligators out there?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Oh, jeez.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Woman one</span>: [LAUGHTER]</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>:</span><span> Gary was a neighbor. Of course, I knew him when I worked out there too</span><span>. He was one of the guys I used </span><span>to bug. Well, there was an aquatic physiologist out there who had gotten some</span><span> alligators. He was going to do </span><span>some radiation studies with them. But before he could get started, he left for another job. </span><span>But while he was there, he did have alligators in the pond out behind the lab out the</span><span>re. It was not too far from the </span><span>Columbia River. And I think one of them got lo</span><span>o</span><span>se, went into the Columbia Rive</span><span>r, and some fisherma</span><span>n found it, </span><span>turned it into a sports' shop downtown, and it was displayed and all that kind of</span><span> fuss, all that kind of</span><span> stuff. </span><span>And then when he left, being a radiation biologist, I knew that nothing was known t</span><span>he sensitivity of alligators to </span><span>radiation. So I said, well, rather than having them destroyed, I'll take them. So I</span><span> volunteered to take them, used </span><span>the same facilities. Except I thought that we ought to beef it up a little bit. So ther</span><span>e was a chain-link fence around </span><span>it, and we had plywood put around also and wired to it. </span><span>And then, for some reason, those alligators were able to squeeze those boards apart and get loose. Well, t</span><span>here </span><span>were five of them that had got loose. Three of them were irradiated, and two of the</span><span>m were controls. Well, I talked </span><span>to, I think, probably Gary Peterson. He was in public relations at the time. And we </span><span>agreed that it would smart this </span><span>time, rather than let somebody find them, we will report it to the media. So we did. </span><span>But at the time, it was not very good because we were still working for General Elect</span><span>ric at that time. So that dates </span><span>it then for us. That night a Vice President from General Electric arrived in town.</span><span> He got up the next morning and </span><span>looked at the newspaper. There it was</span><span>--</span><span>big headlines</span><span>--</span><span>alligators released t</span><span>o the Columbia River by General </span><span>Electric scientists and all that kind of stuff. </span><span>And he raised hell. He jumped on W. Johnson, who was the plant manager</span><span>. He jumped on Herb Parker, who </span><span>worked for him, and he jumped on Harry Kornberg, who </span>was my boss. So guess wh<span>o</span><span>—</span><span>so I was ordered to put out </span><span>a search team on the Columbia River until we found those alligators, and we did. I had a crew go out every day. </span><span>And every week, every Friday, I had to turn in a report. They went to W. Johnson what we did to find the alligators. </span><span>Well, at that time, the reactors were operating. So water along the shore was sti</span><span>ll pretty warm from the cooling </span><span>water, and so the alligators kind of hung along the shore. I think we caught all</span><span> but two. I think there was one </span><span>control </span><span>left </span><span>and one irradiated. I figured the irradiated one died. But sure enough, in pro</span><span>cess, I think another alligator </span><span>crawled up by a fisherman. I can't remember now. </span><span>But I think maybe by the end of the year, we had gone out. We never found anymo</span><span>re alligators, and so there was </span><span>still those two missing. And I finally got a note back from Parker saying I could relax th</span><span>e hunt for the alligators. But, </span><span>you know, in subsequent years, I had calls from people. I had a call from some Wild</span><span>life guy over on the other side </span><span>of the river. That was back</span><span>--</span><span>gosh, that must have been in the '80s. He w</span><span>anted to know what I knew about </span><span>alligators in the Columbia River. I said </span><span>“</span><span>nothing</span><span>,”</span><span> and hung up.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> And then there was an</span><span>other one, I think, more recent </span><span>than that. I can't remember now. But that's the story of the alligators. </span><span>Well, actually, it was interesting, also, the alligators were really not very sensitive to radiation. But we did find that </span><span>the sensitivity varied with the temperature at which the alligators were kept. If yo</span><span>u put them in warmer water, the </span><span>effects were magnified, were increased. So their metabolism had a lot to do with</span><span> the effects occurring in these </span><span>cold blooded animals, which no surprise there.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So what was the time period when this happened?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, it was the early '60s, so it was before </span><span>General Electric. So it must have </span><span>been like '63 probably.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>I wanted to ask you another question, too, about these inhalation studies. You mentione</span><span>d earlier that beagles </span><span>were sort of ideal for this. What made</span><span> them ideal? Was it their train</span><span>ability?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Their size. Their train</span><span>ability. Because an awful lot of data had been collected</span><span> by other laboratories on their </span><span>physiology and biochemistry, diseases, everything. So we didn't have to do all </span><span>that background work. We had it </span><span>already</span><span>--</span><span>the pathology, everything. All we had to do was to go to the literature. So they were made to order. </span><span>Another animal would have been more ideal in terms of respiratory tract. Believe i</span><span>t or not, a horse's respiratory </span><span>tract is more like man's than most of the other species. We looked into getting minia</span><span>ture horses, but</span><span>, well,</span><span> that didn't go </span><span>very far. They were going to be too expensive. </span><span>I should say</span><span>--</span><span>you didn't menti</span><span>on anything about the swine, about</span><span> the pigs we had out </span><span>there. One of the early studies </span><span>out there, of course, was </span><span>studies on radioiodine. </span><span>I'm going to mentio</span><span>n sheep first. When Parker came </span><span>here, he knew that there was going to be a problem with radioiodine being release</span><span>d because he'd seen that </span><span>happen on </span><span>Oak Ridge.</span><span> And so he had the experimental animal </span><span>farm</span><span>, which was led by Leo </span><span>Bustad. </span><span>We haven't mentioned Leo, but I should, because he was a graduate vet</span><span>erinarian from Washington State </span><span>University, and he was hired here in '48, I think, by Parker. He worked here until</span><span> the mid '60s, and then he went </span><span>down to Davis, California for several years, quite a few years. Then he became</span><span> dean of the Vet School over at </span><span>WSU. So roundabout</span><span>--</span><span>and, in fact, there's a building with his name on it, the vet school. </span><span>Anyway, his first job was to do studies on the uptake and effects of radioiodine i</span><span>n sheep. And the sheep, because </span><span>they were raising animals in the area, and there was obvious concern about what would happen if </span><span>they got into </span><span>the sheep. There were</span><span> also</span><span> cattle. They did a study with cattle. </span><span>Those were very important studies because there were claims later on from peopl</span><span>e and farmers, sheep farmers in </span><span>Utah about sheep being exposed to fallout. While the results from the lab here from</span><span> Leo</span><span>’s</span><span> studies really proved that </span><span>it was not radiation. They were eating a toxic weed that caused the death of th</span><span>ose sheep. The farmers, I don't </span><span>think the</span><span>y</span><span> believe us yet. But that's really what happened. </span><span>We also did studies with pigs, </span>because, as Leo said, you could take the GI tract o<span>f a pig and put it next to a GI </span><span>tract from a man, and you'd never be able to distinguish the two. They looke</span><span>d exactly the same, so they did </span><span>ingestion studies with pigs. </span><span>Now, they have developed a miniature pig that would weigh, when it was full siz</span><span>e, about 180 pounds. A standard </span><span>man—</span><span>a standard man for most calculations, is considered to be 180-pound ma</span><span>n. And then he also developed a </span><span>miniatu</span><span>re white pig for skin studies. So he could—w</span><span>hite skin is obviously better for skin studies than a normal pig color skin. </span><span>Anyway, I need to mention those two studies because they were very important.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So those were in inhalations?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>They were not inhalation. We did try an inhalation experiment with sheep, with i</span><span>odine-131 at one time, and only </span><span>once. A sheep has no control over its bodily functions. It was a mess.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So you were involved with that program until about 1968. How long did the inhalation studies continue?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>They continued</span><span>--</span><span>in fact,</span><span> they developed into a very profitable toxicology program, </span><span>inhalation toxicology </span><span>program at Battelle</span><span>, and I think it's just now recently closed down. So it got off to a good start and had a long run.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And how about the animal studies in general, how long did those continue? Was th</span><span>ere ever any sort of opposition </span><span>to that from the public at all?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>No, actually, we fared very well. Our veterinarians were very astute about those </span><span>kinds of situations. Our public </span><span>relation</span><span>s</span><span> people, Gary Peterson and his people, they would talk to us before th</span><span>ey responded to anything, so we </span><span>worked together to avoid problems. And we thought we would have, when we m</span><span>oved our dogs into the 300 A</span><span>rea </span><span>because you could hear them bark on ce</span><span>rtain days. But we never had a [INAUDIBLE].</span><span> None of these outfits got to </span><span>us, and they were over in Seattle. They caused problems over there</span><span>--</span><span>PETA and those people.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Obviously security was a very important part of Hanford site. I'm assuming you had special security clearance. I </span><span>wonder if security impacted your work at all?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>No, it really didn't. I think the first impact was when people came here for an interv</span><span>iew. We were interviewed at the </span><span>hotel. And we never saw where we were working until we got here. H</span><span>ave you ever been out to 100-F A</span><span>rea?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>A long time ago.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>A long time ago. Okay</span><span>, well, it looks like a prison.</span><span> No windows</span><span>. So first the firs</span><span>t thought when you go in there, </span><span>your first day of work, you know, what am I getting into? But inside it was a really go</span><span>od lab.</span><span> But that was a first </span><span>impression. The security, of course, we had the security clearance, and we had to have ev</span><span>ery paper we published </span><span>cleared </span><span>by the security people. Parker, I think, he read everything that we published, and the</span><span>n the security people went over it</span><span>. </span><span>The only thing that they objected to was anything that referenced the amount of radioactive materia</span><span>l that went into </span><span>the rive</span><span>r, concentrations of radionuclides</span><span>in the Columbia River, any releases</span><span> or anything like that. B</span><span>ecause </span><span>they felt that that was a possible way of somebody finding out how much pluton</span><span>ium was being produced. I don't </span><span>know how, but I'm sure there were people monitoring the temperature and things like that.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>You mentioned earlier</span><span>--</span><span>you mentioned Herbert Parker. Are you involved with the</span><span> Parker Foundation, and or have </span><span>you been?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, I founded it.</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Right, so do you want to talk about that some?</span></div>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Bair</span>: </span><span>Yeah, I knew Herb from the day I arrived here, and he was a tough manager</span><span>—</span><span>reall</span><span>y tough. He didn't give you any </span><span>slack.</span><span> [LAUGHTER]</span><span> Things had to be just right, and people who did stupid things had a tough ti</span><span>me with him. But he insisted on </span><span>quality, integrity. He really</span><span>, really</span><span> had high standards for everything we get did out there</span><span>. And he supported our research </span><span>fully. As I said before, I think he read everything we wrote, so he knew what was going on. </span><span>He also was a strong supporter of a symposiu</span><span>m series that we put together, back in about—it </span><span>started about 1960. We had an </span><span>annual symposia in biology and included the environmental sciences</span><span>,</span><span> too. He wa</span><span>s a strong supporter of that. I </span><span>worked with him. He was my boss at one time. I worked with him very much in </span><span>the Institutional Review Board, </span><span>setting up a human subjects kind of a review. </span><span>So when he died, I felt that he ought to be recognized in some way, and I knew, of </span><span>course, that he has interest in </span><span>education, and so I </span><span>talked to a couple people at </span><span>PN</span><span>NL, the </span><span>controller of the time,</span><span> I think it was</span><span>--</span><span>I can't </span><span>remember who it was. [INAUDIBLE]</span><span>, I think</span><span>—</span><span>and decided to go in and set it up</span><span> as a not-for-profit. It wasn't </span><span>associated with Battelle</span><span> or anybody else, a not-for-profit foundation. We wen</span><span>t to the state and got all that </span><span>approved and so forth. </span><span>Then the whole idea was to have an annual lecture sponsored by the Parker </span><span>Foundation to coincide with the </span><span>symposia each year. And so we did that for a number of years. Then, when I retire</span><span>d, I felt that there was a good </span><span>chance that </span><span>Battelle</span><span> was not going to be around forever because their contract</span><span> was limited. A</span><span>nd Battelle </span><span>was helping us fund the lectures, so their money, their support was helpful</span><span>--</span><span>very important, actually. </span><span>So</span><span> I talked to Doug Olesen</span><span>, who was head of</span><span> Battelle</span><span> at the time and h</span><span>e agreed that there ought to be </span><span>some way of</span><span> being sure it was maintained in perpetuum </span><span>some way. So I talked J</span><span>im Cochran, who was</span><span>--</span><span>he wasn't </span><span>called Chancellor, I don't think, was he?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Dean, it was Dean.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Dean, yeah, and I was amazed at his enthusiasm. </span><span>[LAUGHTER] </span><span>I thought I was going to have to se</span><span>ll something, but I didn't. And </span><span>Ron Waters, at the time, was on board. He had replaced me. So we talked to Jim, </span><span>and he explained, and the rules </span><span>haven't changed to this day, as far as I know. He told us that we had to get $25,000 before we could </span><span>actually have </span><span>it identified as a separate entity within the foundation, and so that was our initial goal. </span><span>So that's taken off, and a number of other people have joined the board, an</span><span>d several of them have died, of </span><span>course, through the years. And I'm hopeful that it will continue</span><span>,</span><span> because not only </span><span>for the fact that I want to see </span><span>Parker continue to be recognized for what he did here, but I think it has an o</span><span>pportunity to provide some real </span><span>benefits to the WSU and the community. </span><span>So it's kind of, in a sense, now a dual thing. We</span><span> have the</span><span> fund which is associated w</span><span>ith </span><span>the </span><span>WSU foundation, but then we </span><span>also</span><span> have the foundation as a state—</span><span>whatever the terminology is. So we can operate </span><span>independently if we need to. If </span><span>we want to do something that WSU may not want to be associated with, I don't what it would be, but anyway.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Mm-hmm. Probably that’s true</span><span>.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>And I teach a course on the Cold War.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Oh, great.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>:</span><span> For some of them it's something they did not live throug</span><span>h at all. So I </span><span>wonder if you could talk about, especially in thinking about future genera</span><span>tions or even the current young </span><span>generation, who wouldn't really have lived through the Cold War, what do you thin</span><span>k is important for them to know </span><span>about working at Hanford, especially during this Cold War period?</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, there was certainly visual evidence of the Cold War, because when we mov</span><span>ed here, they had anti-aircraft </span><span>guns sitting out here, and the</span><span>y</span><span> eventually had missile sites and all that. But as far as the program's </span><span>concerned, I </span><span>think the only thing that reminded us of it was the security and the classification. But during that period, </span><span>I attended </span><span>meetings in Vienna and other places and interacted with Russian colleag</span><span>ues and exchanged publications, </span><span>information, without any problems at all. </span><span>I do remember that one time that I came back from a meeting where I had met</span><span> with Russian colleagues, and I </span><span>don't know whether it was the CIA or some agency wanted me to come</span><span> down and talk to them about my </span><span>impressions of the Russian side of it al</span><span>l. A</span><span>nd I didn't think it was appropri</span><span>ate, because I thought that was </span><span>essentially maki</span><span>ng spies out of scientists. W</span><span>e squared off. They understoo</span><span>d my position, and I understood </span><span>theirs, so it was no</span><span>—</span><span>I think that for the most part, scientists are pretty much engaged in the scienc</span><span>e itself. Because we were doing </span><span>things that no one has ever done and first time, really. Every experiment was publishable, which is unbelievable. </span><span>But through the years, I really had some wonderful opportunities, many of them assoc</span><span>iated with the Cold War.</span><span> In</span><span>fact, I was involved with the Chernobyl accident. I guess I was part of the Cold War. Well, I </span><span>can tell you about that, </span><span>if you want me to.</span></div>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br />Bauman</span>: </span><span>Yeah, if you would.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Okay. W</span><span>ell, when the Chernobyl accident occurred, we had, at that time, the at</span><span>mospheric sciences people had a </span><span>couple of airplanes here. A</span><span>nd I heard some indication that</span><span> that cloud from that accident</span><span> was coming this direction. </span><span>So we put those planes up to collect samples all the way down the coast. And since that was part</span><span> of my program </span><span>at the tim</span><span>e, I had a lot of interest in the possibility of doing that</span><span>. And I had full support of the people back in headquarters. </span><span>People downtown here weren't all that enthusiastic about it, but I had support </span><span>from the people who were paying </span><span>the bill. </span><span>And so we got some the first information about the fallout from Chernobyl coming down to the United States here. </span><span>And then I was involved in meetings in Vienna and also at Chernobyl and lo</span><span>oking at the health aspects and </span><span>prediction</span><span>s</span><span> of health aspects. I chaired a committee for</span><span> the DOE at that</span><span> time of s</span><span>cientists looking at the health </span><span>environmental aspects of it and put out a report or so.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>So you essentially worked at Hanford for almost 40 years, roughly.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well, I started in '54, and '64.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Ended up</span><span>in like '94, something like that?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>That’s right, </span><span>'54 to '94.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>You must have seen a lot of changes take place. I'm wondering</span><span>,</span><span> what were some </span><span>of the more significant changes </span><span>you saw take place both at Hanford and maybe even in the community of Richland itse</span><span>lf?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>Well</span><span>,</span><span> I think the biggest change in Hanford, and then I'd say, several ways</span><span>--</span><span>maybe </span><span>I can just start. One change is </span><span>that when General Electric was here, we had one management, one boss. It was t</span><span>he plant boss, okay</span><span>? And I</span><span>’ve</span><span> looked </span><span>at since then, can anybody count the number of bosses we have here in this p</span><span>lace now? I don't know how they </span><span>keep track of everything that's going on. It's so spread out and so</span><span>—</span><span>So fortunately, I haven't had to deal with any of that, but I've just seen it happen. I</span><span>t seems like it’s </span><span>impossible. And I mentioned </span><span>that to Doc Hastings once, and he said, well, it's a lot more complicated now. Wel</span><span>l, you know, I think about what </span><span>could be more complicated than building reactors and producing plutonium and sepa</span><span>rating it all out for the first </span><span>time? So anyway. </span><span>Then the other thing, of course, from the</span><span> Battelle</span><span> standpoint, is that the progra</span><span>m has diversified. So we've had </span><span>people doing all kinds of things, and it started during my time. We had big chunk of </span><span>the artificial heart </span>program at <span>one time, using pigs. </span><span>In fact, people don't know this, I'm sure, that some of the basic research done f</span><span>or ultrasound</span><span>--</span><span>you go in for a </span><span>ultrasound these days</span><span>--</span><span>some of the basic work</span><span> was really down here by Mel Sycoff,</span><span> who was a biologist </span><span>who did work on neonatal and feta</span><span>l systems, and John </span><span>Dykeman</span><span> and Percy Hildebrand</span><span>, they were the </span><span>engineers setting up the system. That was the basic work for it. I don't know </span><span>what happened. I assume Battelle </span><span>must have gotten some patents and sold them to somebody. </span><span>Then also some of the veterinarians got involved with the material sciences.</span><span> People who developed the tooth </span><span>implants and also implants for joints. They developed a complex metal void sys</span><span>tem. It was</span><span> like</span><span> a metal sponge with </span><span>lots of holes in it. I can't remember whether it was zirconium or what kind of metal it was n</span><span>ow. But so the bone </span><span>tissue would grow into it, and you wouldn't have to u</span><span>se glue and cements like they use</span><span> now. </span><span>Same thing with tooth implants, same kind of system. So the bone would actually </span><span>grow in. And they had implanted </span><span>these in pigs. Now can you imagine any human</span><span> having a stronger bite than a p</span><span>ig?</span><span>[LAUGHTER] </span><span>So those really were very well </span><span>supported tooth implants. So there was a number of outgrowths of the program that paid off.</span></p>
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<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>Is there anything that I haven't asked you about or anything you haven't had a chance </span><span>to talk about yet that you </span><span>would like to talk about?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>While I was managing these programs, I did get involved in a number of activities of</span><span>f-site. [INAUDIBLE]. Well, I'll </span><span>mention a couple of them. I got involved in the Marshall Islands situation. You know, t</span><span>he Marshall Islands where </span><span>they conducted the weapons tests? There was one particular island wher</span><span>e they had done these one-point </span><span>detonations where they did</span><span>--</span><span>it was called safety shots </span><span>w</span><span>here they</span><span> were just </span><span>detonating a weapon and spewing </span><span>plutonium all over the place. It was not a nuclear detonation. It was just a chemical detonation, in a sense. </span><span>So the Army was involved in trying to clean that up, and so I got involved in chairin</span><span>g a committee that was going to </span><span>advise them on how they should do that and so forth. So that was a kind of an intere</span><span>sting experience. I got to ride </span><span>helicopters all around the islands out there and sleep in the admiral's quarters.</span><span> [LAUGHTER] </span><span>Actually, they built a dome over one of the craters, after they hauled the contaminated dirt and dumped </span><span>it in one of </span><span>the craters. Then they filled it in with concrete. Anyway, I went out there one day in</span><span> a helicopter and landed on top </span><span>of it</span><span>--</span><span>that dome. So I had some cool experiences that way. And the Marshal</span><span>lese were concerned about their </span><span>health and the health of their children as a result of being exposed to all th</span><span>at. So the Department of Energy </span><span>wanted to write some booklets to try and explain to them what the health risks</span><span> were. And so I, with two other </span><span>people, Jackie Lee from Los Alamos</span><span>,</span><span> and a scientist from DOE, we co-authored thr</span><span>ee books, one on Bikini, one on </span><span>Eniwetok</span><span>, and one on the Northern Marsh</span><span>all Islands, trying to describe</span><span> in the </span><span>Marshallese language what the </span><span>risk was for those people living there and their descendants and so forth, and try to explain what happened. </span><span>We worked with a missionary from the Marshall Islands. She was a</span><span>—</span><span>I can'</span><span>t remember what church. She had </span><span>translated the Bible into one of the languages out there, so she worked with us.</span><span> And also we had an editor from </span><span>here, Ray Ballman, who lives across the river here. He actually has a PhD in Frenc</span><span>h. That didn't make him able to </span><span>speak Marshallese, but he understood how you translate. </span><span>And so the book was actually written in Marshallese and translated into English. So we the books actually had the </span><span>Marshallese language version and in paragraphs below that, the English. I don'</span><span>t know whether it to helped the </span><span>Marshallese understand the situation</span><span> or not</span><span>, but it was, I think, a worthwhile effort and cer</span><span>tainly very interesting to work </span><span>with those people. I have a lot of respect for those Marshallese people who were essentially pushed off their land.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: </span><span>What time period was this, 1950s?</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: </span><span>This was</span><span>--</span><span>I did this work in the 1980s.</span></p>
<p><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bauman</span>: Oh, in the 1980s</span><span>.</span></p>
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<div><span><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Bair</span>: Yeah. </span><span>The lawyers, by that time, had gotten out there and stirred things up, so the Mar</span><span>shallese were really very, very </span><span>concerned about everything.</span></div>
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri-Cities
Bit Rate/Frequency
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218 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
300 Area
100-F Area
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1954-2013
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1954-1980
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Stannard, Newell
Whipple, Hoyt
Bair, Barbara
Hungate, Frank
Parker, Herb
Wager, Ralph
Park, Jim
Blue John
Sullivan, Morris
Smith, Vic
Alphen, Ed
Wiley, Bill
Volpentest, Sam
Peterson, Gary
Kornberg, Harry
Olsen, Doug
Cochran, Jim
Waters, Ron
Sycoff, Mel
Dykeman, John
Hildebrand, Percy
Lee, Jackie
Ballman, Ray
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with William Bair
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with William Bair conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Subject
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Richland (Wash.)
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Hanford (Wash.)
Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region
Date
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8/14/2013
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2016-05-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100-F Area
200 Area
300 Area
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Parker, Herb 1910-1984
Richland (Wash.)
Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005