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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
William Tyler
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Tyler_William</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: Now you can give it right back to her?</p>
<p>William Tyler: Yeah, I plan on it.</p>
<p>Man One: Exactly. All right, get this off your face there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Does your daughter live here in Richland?</p>
<p>Tyler: She lives right across the street from me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, does she? Oh, there you go. Well, you can really give it to her then. [LAUGHTER] She can't avoid you.</p>
<p>Tyler: Well in fact, we work together at HAMMER.</p>
<p>Man one: I’m rolling.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. Well I think we're ready to get started. So let's start by having you say your name and also spell it for us.</p>
<p>Tyler: My name is William T. Tyler. W-I-L-L-I-A-M, T, T-Y-L-E-R.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you go by Bill?</p>
<p>Tyler: Bill, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. And today's date is August 28<sup>th</sup> of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we can, by maybe having you talk about what brought you to the area. When did you come to work at Hanford, and what brought you here?</p>
<p>Tyler: We came out here on vacation from Oklahoma in 1947 to see my dad's brothers and sisters. And we were going to stay for a week or so. And my dad applied for a job here and got it, and we stayed. I thought it was the end of the world. This was not a pretty place in 1947. But I went in the Navy in 1950, got into the nuclear program and came out here in 1955. Went to work at Hanford. Worked as an HPT until '82, I believe. And then I went into management in health physics.</p>
<p>Bauman: So HPT, you mean health physics technician. Is that was HPT is?</p>
<p>Tyler: Uh-huh. Sorry.</p>
<p>Bauman: That's okay. So how old were in 1947 when you came on vacation?</p>
<p>Tyler: I think I was 15.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. What sort of job did your father get?</p>
<p>Tyler: He worked in transportation.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you already had aunts and uncles who came here?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you said you thought this was the end of the world. What do you mean by that? What are your first impressions of the place?</p>
<p>Tyler: [LAUGHTER] Well, my first impression is we got here July the 5th. And my aunt and uncle had a little cafe on downtown Kennewick, on Kennewick Avenue. And it was about 104 degrees out. And we were driving down the street looking for it. And my dad says, man, I wouldn't live here if it's the last place in the world. And back then there was not a lot of trees. There was in Kennewick, and a few in Richland. But every time the wind blew, it was dusty and the tumbleweeds flew, and a lot of dust storms. In fact, they call them termination winds. Because everything was booming out in Hanford and every time the wind blew, people didn't like that and they'd just pick up and quit. So they called it termination winds.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you know when your aunt and uncles came here?</p>
<p>Tyler: My aunt was born here in Kennewick. My uncle came out here in '37, '38, somewhere along that area.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, okay, so you'd had relatives here before the Hanford site.</p>
<p>Tyler: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so when your family first came in 1947 and you dad got the job and stayed here, where did you live?</p>
<p>Tyler: We lived in Kennewick for a year. And then we got a house in Richland in 1948 at 635 Basswood.</p>
<p>Bauman: That was a government home then?</p>
<p>Tyler: Uh-huh. It was ranch house. And we moved in Thanksgiving Day of '48. And my future wife moved in next door the same day. I didn't know that was my future wife, but it turned out to be. And I still live on Basswood. Different house, but--</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you go to high school here then?</p>
<p>Tyler: I went to Kennewick. I started in Kennewick because that's where we lived and I didn't want to transfer. So I rode the intercity bus every day to Kennewick and back. I graduated in 1950 and then somebody in Washington wanted me to join their services. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So how would you describe, outside of your first impression, how would you describe the community of Richland in late '40s, early 1950s?</p>
<p>Tyler: It actually—it was a very good place to live. I didn't realize it at the time. It was smaller, much smaller--probably 5,000 people in each of the cities. It was a good place to live if you could ignore the wind blowing and the dust storms and that sort of thing. But it kind of grows on you. I know I wouldn't live anywhere else.</p>
<p>Bauman: In those early years when you were here in the '40s and '50s, do you remember any particular community events that stand out in your mind?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, Atomic Frontier Days, the Grape Festival in Kennewick, and then the fair. Nothing big or spectacular, but it was something to do.</p>
<p>Bauman: Can you describe Atomic Frontier Days a little bit? What sorts of things--</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, normally they had a queen and a parade of course. And it was just kind of a—I don't know how--just a parade and kind of a get together type thing for the people that lived here.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let's talk about your work a little bit now. You said you started working in '55.</p>
<p>Tyler: ’55.</p>
<p>Bauman: So can you talk about who you worked for at time and a little bit more detail about what sorts of work you did? What area of the Hanford site you worked in?</p>
<p>Tyler: Okay, I started February the 22<sup>nd</sup>, 1955. And my first work assignment was 200 West Area tank farms. And then I went up to the REDOX facility which was a separations facility. A couple months later, then I went to U Plant. And then I went to T Plant, which were all separation facilities. And then I went over to PUREX in December of 1955. That was prior to startup. We started up our first spiked run was I think March or April of '56. And I worked there until '62 I believe. When I worked there, we also was switched with the 100 Area HPTs, or RCTs, or radiation monitors for exposure reasons. Because they got a lot more exposure than we did, so we would switch with them. And I got to work in all the 100 Area reactors except N when they were running, and some of the 300 Area.</p>
<p>Bauman: So just about everywhere?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, I worked basically in every facility out here except 234-5.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so was GE the contractor? What contractor did you work for?</p>
<p>Tyler: GE. They were the prime contractor. And they left here in '66 I believe. Then Rockwell and Westinghouse and Fluor Daniel and MSA.</p>
<p>Bauman: So as a health physics technician, what exactly did that mean? What sorts of things did you do on a daily basis?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well as you know, there was a lot of contamination, radiation. And our job was to set the dose rates if people were going into a radiation area. We would go in, set the dose rates, stay with them. Got to make sure that the dose rates didn't increase while they were in there. We surveyed them out when they were done with the GMs and alpha detectors to make sure they didn't take any contamination home with them. And that was our prime responsibility. We maintain control of personnel exposure rates and their contamination, if they had any, and made sure that everything was as clean as we could get it. That's the short and sweet version.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. And you did that, obviously, at all these different areas you worked at on the site?</p>
<p>Tyler: Everywhere, inside, outside, burial grounds.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there ever any incidents while you were doing this where people did have excessive exposure or anything along those lines?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, there was a lot of them. When GE came here--well, they were the prime contractor. Back in those days, you really couldn't talk about your job. You could say that you worked at Hanford and that was pretty much it. But yes, there was a lot of good memories and bad memories. Some really high exposure rates almost on a daily basis, because everything was running. And what will go wrong probably does. And it was very interesting work. It was something different every day. It's the kind of job that you look forward to doing and working. I did. I really enjoyed it.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what was the process or procedure if someone had an overexposure?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, you had your dosimetry, which—Battelle read that. So you know what they got. And that's the record that's with you forever. At that time I think we worked--[PHONE RINGING] Shit. We worked under a 50 millirem per day limits, or 300 a week. And sometimes you would exceed that. But we were issued dosimetry everyday when we came to work. And you had a film badge which was read I think once a month. But they kept a running record of your exposure. That's why when we, when 100 Area radiation monitor--[PHONE RINGING] Hello. Can I call you back, Ian? Okay, thanks. Sorry. I don't know how to turn it off.</p>
<p>Bauman: So we're talking about the dosimeter--</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, they kept records of all your exposures. And then every month they would send you a copy or let you know what it was. But if before the end of the year was out, if you were running short of exposure, then they would transfer people--particularly the radiation monitors--to different areas. And they what they were doing was using our exposure instead of--and letting their people cool down a little bit. It was just a way of equalizing the dose rates to the personnel. And it worked good in theory. And there was some--and I probably shouldn't say this—but there was some little minor ripples in the water, because people accused the other people of hanging back and now I got to come save you, that sort of thing. But it was all in fun. Everybody knew how serious the job was. And that was just part of their job.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how long did you work as a health physics technician then?</p>
<p>Tyler: I think until 1982 and I went into management in health physics. At that time, they called us managers. And I was the manager of East tank farms until 1988. And then I transferred over to the West Area environmental group and took that over. My responsibilities were all of the outside radiation contamination areas. Burial sites. '89 I retired. Came back three months later and went to work in the environmental restoration part-time. And I did that until 1995. And then when Bechtel came in, I left there and went back to health physics side and become a evaluator at HAMMER for radiation protection, which I still do.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you still work for--</p>
<p>Tyler: Two to three days a week.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you mentioned earlier the sort of secrecy of some aspects of Hanford. Obviously secrecy, security were a very important part of. I wonder if you could discuss that at all, any ways that impacted your work?</p>
<p>Tyler: GE had a very rigid plan of how they wanted things to go. And security of course was top secret. If you went—and a few people did--they go down and have a beer at the bar and they get to talking. And you never know who you're talking to you. And there was cases where people didn't have a job the next morning. Because security would overhear them. And you were pretty much done. So people didn't talk about their job. They didn't even talk about it with their family. Security was very strict. When you—well, for instance, when you go to work in the morning or if you're on shifts, same thing. You would catch the bus at the bus lot. Get on the bus, go through the barricade at the Y. If I was going to PUREX, we'd go up, pull in to the front gate of PUREX. You'd get out, off the bus. Go through the badge house. Pick up your dosimetry. Go out. Get back on the bus. The bus would pull inside the gate. Get back on the bus. Go down to PUREX. Get off the bus. Go through their badge house. And they would check your lunch bucket and all that. And then go into the building. And then in the evening, just reverse that process and back out again. So they were very strict. If you drove your car, you could not drive it past the main gate of East Area. You parked outside. And when you could drive inside, security would check the glovebox and the trunk and whatever was in the car. So it was very regimented.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you about, in 1963 President Kennedy visited for the opening of the N reactor. I wondered if you were there and have any memories of that event at all?</p>
<p>Tyler: I was not there because I was on shift at that day, or I probably would have been.</p>
<p>Bauman: Mm-hm. Obviously, one of things that happened with Hanford is the shift from focus on production to focus on clean up. And I wonder if that shift impacted your work in any way?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yes. Like I said before, I was the manager of East tank farms. And my office was at Semi Works, which is in 200 East Area, which was a pilot plant for PUREX. Semi Works was running. We were doing strontium cesium runs. But then when the edict came out that we were going to phase out and clean up, one of the first facilities--well I think it was the first facility—that we started tearing down was Semi Works. And D&D did the work. But we shut it all down and demolished the building and just imploded it in place. Built a dirt berm over it, cleaned it up. Most of the cells and the tanks are still in place, but they're full of grout. And then there's concrete over it. And what we did was tear down—this was approximately a three-story building with three stories underground. So when we tore down the building—it had a lot of piping and columns—we tore down the building and left the west wall standing. And we filled everything we could get inside like the basement and concreted it in place. And then we undercut the west wall. And this is probably four foot thick. And got a couple of Caterpillars and chains and hooked it over the top of the west wall. Pulled it down over like a lid. And then dirt berm over it, and there it is. And the stack that was there—the exhaust, the big stack—they imploded that and laid her right alongside the building. One guy did that. We deconned it first, and he came in, and a dynamite expert told us where we was going to put the stack and put a stick out on the end in the ground like they do now on the TV. And laid that stack right down on that stick, all by himself. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So that definitely did make for significant changes then, the shift from production?</p>
<p>Tyler: Very significant, because that was kind of pilot test for all the other anticipated deconning and decommissioning they we're going to do, which is still going on.</p>
<p>Bauman: Let's shift now and talk a little bit about HAPO. I wonder--I know you've been involved with them quite often. I wonder if you can talk about your involvement when you became involved in HAPO and how that came about?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well let's see. First, HAPO was a GE acronym which stands for Hanford Atomic Products Operations, which was the name of GE's part of this. GESA, which is another credit union down the street, was the General Electric Supervisors Association. GE was very particular about their managers or supervisors were a step above the blue collar worker. And I think they still maintain that. If you were a supervisor, it's white shirt and tie. And you don't fraternize with--So when the credit committee wanted to get started, that's the name they chose, just HAPO. And it's '53. And I was looking at one of the early--the record book. And I think there's five or six of the charter members of the first—that I worked with that were radiation monitors just like I was. But I never joined HAPO until my wife was--she likes C First. And I never joined HAPO until I think '71. And then a friend of mine that I worked with talked me into getting on the committee that approved loans, credit committee, which I did. And then I got invited later to go on the board of directors and got voted in and been there ever since. I really enjoyed it. It's a great credit union.</p>
<p>Bauman: So is it the board of directors then, primarily is it either current or former Hanford employees?</p>
<p>Tyler: No. It used to be when we were federal, you had to work out here to join HAPO. And then they relinquished or changed the bylaws so that anybody could join HAPO. If you give them $5 and signed up, you were a member for life. But initially it was you had to work here to join.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you said you didn't join until '71. What led you to decide to join at that point?</p>
<p>Tyler: The guy I carpool with, one of them, convinced me that I should do that. [LAUGHTER] And I didn't like C First. I never did like C First. But my wife liked them because you got at the end of the month, you got all of your checks back. And she liked that. But I joined HAPO and started my own checking account. And then she finally joined shortly after I did. And now the rest is history. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So, I know you weren't part of the formation of the credit union. But I wonder if you can talk about it a little more? If you know more, were the employee unions at Hanford involved in the credit union, establishing that?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: And anything you can talk about that?</p>
<p>Tyler: Helen Van Patten was one. GESA started it first. And then the blue collars said well, we got to have one of those. The first store was down by the Spudnut Shop. I think we had one or two employees. And everything was in a ledger, handwritten. Joe Blow borrowed $25. It was very basic. But fortunately, it kept growing and membership increased.</p>
<p>Bauman: So the unions saw it as a way to provide credit union opportunities--</p>
<p>Tyler: Right.</p>
<p>Bauman:--for blue collar workers or laborers or whatever? Okay. So I want to—going back to your work at Hanford, what are some of the more challenging aspects of your work, and maybe some more rewarding aspects of your work?</p>
<p>Tyler: That’s a good question. Probably one of the most challenging was the responsibility when you're out on a hot job where the contamination levels are great and the radiation levels are great, and you have a whole crew of people. It challenges you to--it's always in the back of your mind that something's going to happen and I'm not going to see it, or I'm not going to catch it. And somebody's going to get overexposed. And that's always in the back of your mind. Because--and I have to beat my own drum here for a bit—radiation monitoring and health physics now, whatever they are, it's a very challenging job. You're responsible for--you're taking care of people. And they trust you. And they expect you to look out for them. And it's a lot of responsibility, but most everybody accepts that gladly, because they know how important it is. Because you're responsible for--you could get somebody really overexposed, and who knows what the consequences are? As far as rewards for that, I think is the satisfaction of when the job is done, that you knew you did your best job. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got overexposed. Nobody got contaminated. And the job got done.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there any events or incidents or anything, sort of unique things that happened during your time working at Hanford that sort of really stands out to you?</p>
<p>Tyler: When I first hired in, like I said, I went to REDOX. One of the problems they had shortly before I got here was they had a ruthenium—they ran some ruthenium and they played it out in the stack. And then it broke loose. And it kind of went out in the desert and on the ground. And you had ruthenium chunks of—it looked like white paper that built up on the inside the stack and then finally broke loose and fluttered out and went everywhere. And one of my first jobs with a GM and a walking stick was walking out through the desert and finding these things. Little specks, big specks, didn't have any trouble finding them. [LAUGHTER] They were very hot. And I remember we used the KOA cans from T Plant, which were little round cans, metal cans about that big around, about this high with a snap-on lid. And that's what we put them in, with dirt for shielding. And then buried them. But there's been a lot of incidents of hot burials from PUREX. I remember some where we used a burial string. We used a locomotive, a whole bunch of flat cars. And then at that time, they'd build big wooden boxes. And I recall one big one that had enough lumber in it to build two B houses. Huge—it sat on two flat cars. And we put it in, and we took readings over the top of the tunnel as it went out of the tunnel towards the burial ground. And it read greater than 500 R. And as you know, 500 R for an hour is a lethal dose rate to 50% of the people, 60%. And then you go down the railroad track behind B Plant, pull it across the highway which patrol barricaded the road. So you pull the string across the road and then back it into the burial ground. And then you had to sink—this box was built on skids. And a big long steel cable lay on another flat car, three or four flat cars away from it. So you would pull that. And you would pull it down into a burial trench. And the Cat would be down there ready. And the train would back up and they would grab that cable, put the eye on. Hook it to the Cat. And then the Cat skinner would pull the cable off. And the train would move up until the boxes sit here and the cables here. And the Cat's down here pulling. And then we'd get up to the--and there was a dock where you could slide it off. And you would turn that box and pull it in. Pull it down into the trench, down to the other end, wherever you wanted it. Unhook the Cat. Leave it. Pull the Cat out. And then they would backfill that box. And that's the way they did the burials. And it worked great except when the box collapsed unexpectedly.</p>
<p>Bauman: Then not so great.</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, that's not a good--that happened once or twice.</p>
<p>Bauman: During your years working out there, were you ever concerned about your own safety, health, protection, in any way?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well as stupid as it may sound, no. I never was. Because I always figured I knew what I was doing. And I received some very good training in the Navy, which helped. But I never worried about it. I always trusted me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were you a member of a union when you were working at Hanford? And what union was that? And I guess, what sort of relationship did the union have with management here at Hanford during the time you were here?</p>
<p>Tyler: Good and bad. [LAUGHTER] I used to be chief steward for the radiation monitors. I went through two negotiations. And after the last one, I decided I didn't want any more of that. Chief steward's a thankless job, but somebody's got to do it.</p>
<p>Bauman: What does that mean exactly? What—chief steward--</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, you're the union rep plant wide for all of the HPTs. And I had this grandiose idea that I could just change everything. It's a great idea, but it doesn't work. It's a job that somebody has to do. And it's a job that is thankless. Because somebody's always mad at you. Whatever you do, in some of the people's eyes, you could always do better. And it's just not a good job. [LAUGHTER] But I enjoyed it. You learn a lot. And you learn both sides of the fence--how the company thinks and how the union thinks. And then you try and compromise.</p>
<p>Bauman: Were there ever any times you were here where there was a strike or any sort of--</p>
<p>Tyler: Two--'66 and '76.</p>
<p>Bauman: And were those sort of across the site?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yep. And in '66, after we settled the '66 strike, GE left.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was that one of the reasons they left?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah, well, they had planned to leave. And then that's when--because when GE was here, they were the only contractor. And then when they left, they kind of broke it up into the 200 Areas and the 100 Areas. And it's always been different contractors, not just one prime contractor.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember what some of the key issues were in '66 and '76 in terms of--</p>
<p>Tyler: Wages. Wages were always the key issue. Well, I take that back. '66 or '76 was, they were going to do away with the buses. And that was a key issue for everybody. It didn't happen, but it was a--that was when they spent all the money redoing the bus lot. And then a couple years later, they did away with the buses anyway. But we did get air conditioned buses. Before we had old buses, the old green buses. Well like the ones sitting down at--</p>
<p>Bauman: The CREHST Museum?</p>
<p>Tyler: Yeah. Those were some of the newer ones. The older ones were international buses that looked like a truck. Cold in the winter and hot in the summer. But they worked. When they did away with the buses, see, that did away with a lot of jobs in the bus lot. Maintenance, everything there, which was a lot of people.</p>
<p>Bauman: So part of that was about jobs and issues of transportation?</p>
<p>Tyler: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Bauman: Anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or that you think we should talk about?</p>
<p>Tyler: Well, we've covered pretty much every--well, we've covered pretty much everything I think. I don't really know what you're looking for.</p>
<p>Bauman: Just your experience. That's why I wonder if there's something that you experienced some event or something that I haven't asked you about yet that you think would be important to—</p>
<p>Tyler: Well. When I retired, I took the first early out and then got bored to death and came back. When I was in the environmental group in West Area, a good friend of mine was an environmental manager outside the site. But he talked me into coming back part time and become a waste shipper and a waste handler. Which was--I'd never done it. I knew what it was. But I finally relented. I enjoyed it. It's entirely different. Because I was kind of burned out on radiation protection, and I wanted to do something different. Didn't want to retire, but I wanted to do something different. So I went to the classes and become a certified waste shipper and a waste handler. And we took care of all of the sites outside of 200 East, 200 West. All the burial sites, all the drilling sides, the river, pretty much everything. And it was very interesting. Until '95, when I decided I didn't like the contractor. [LAUGHTER] And I went back to health physics.</p>
<p>Bauman: Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Obviously most of your career, the Cold War was going on during most of the time you were working at Hanford. So I'm wondering what you think would be important for young people today and people in future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War?</p>
<p>Tyler: I'm trying to remember. We had the strike in '66. And there was almost another strike four or five years later. In fact midnight was the deadline when we were supposed to go on strike. And at 11:30, we got a notification that the President had put a stop to the strike because of the situation with the Cold War thing. And I think that's the first and the last time that ever happened. But as far as--</p>
<p>Bauman: So then about 1970 or so?</p>
<p>Tyler: Early, yeah, '71 or '72 maybe. No, it was before that, because I was still on shift. It was probably '68, '69 maybe. But as far as the Cold War, it's still going on in different forms—my personal opinion. You look back at history--and I've lived through a lot of it--nothing has really changed. Like what's going on now, and the Bible says there'll be war and rumors of war. And that's correct. Because whatever our President does—whatever he does is going to be wrong in a lot of people's eyes. It's kind of like if you don't do it, you should have. And if you do do it, you shouldn't have. [LAUGHTER] It's a different type of cold war. Instead of—we used to worry about Russia. And I'm not too sure that—maybe we should still be worrying about Russia and a lot of other countries that--Things have changed. But they haven't—the basic things that caused the Cold War hasn't changed. There's all kind of weapons. I don't know.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. I think that's all the questions I have for you.</p>
<p>Tyler: Okay.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to thank you for coming in today.</p>
<p>Tyler: Thank you for having me.</p>
<p>Bauman: Pleasure to talk to you.</p>
<p>Tyler: Good.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:47:27
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
244 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
100 Area
2-East Area
200 Area
200 East Area
300 Area
B Plant
K-West Area
T Plant
U Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1947-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1955-still working
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Helen Van Patten
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William Tyler
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with William Tyler conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
08-28-2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-6-2: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
100 Area
1955
2-East Area
200 Area
200 East
200 East Area
200 West Area
300 Area
B Plant
Battelle
Bechtel
Cat
Cold War
General Electric
HAMMER
Hanford
K-West Area
Kennedy
Kennewick
PUREX
T Plant
U Plant
War
Westinghouse
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F482a9fe8af3a5584b2466b9e4084da93.mp4
44a30f23746c53a6ea7287aa443ab156
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F246206de477347a3c79fc8f80c19bf0b.jpg
e7d3130df0dd990982909b39fd3f84a7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob and Dianne
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Northwest Public Television | Taylor_Diane_Bob</p>
<p>Man one: Okay</p>
<p>Robert Bauman: All right. Good to go?</p>
<p>Man one: You ready?</p>
<p>Man two: We're ready to go.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. All right, well, we'll get started. And I'm going to start first by having each of you say your name for us. Make sure we have that on there. So go ahead.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: My name is Bob Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: And I'm Dianne Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: And Dianne is spelled with two Ns?</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Two Ns, yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay, great. And my name's Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And today is June 10<sup>th</sup> of 2015. And so, if we could start maybe, start, Bob, maybe, with if you could tell us a little bit about your family and how they ended up coming to the Tri-Cities area and when that happened.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: My father was employed by the US federal prison system. He went to work as a guard at McNeil Island in 1934 for the Department of Prisons, the US Bureau of Prisons--there, I'm finally saying that correctly. And he started off as a guard and was employed at McNeil Island from 1934 actually until he retired in 1955. But the real story to talk about is how I happen to be sitting here. And in the early stages of the creation of the Manhattan Project and what was developing here with the acquisition of all the lands for Hanford, very early in that process, the US Army went to the Bureau of Prisons and contracted for a minimum security type prison camp to be constructed here in the Richland area. The purpose of that being the minimum security prisoners would be farming the lands and the orchards that were being acquired by the Manhattan Project, but would have no men available to take care of the fields and the orchards. And so the Bureau of Prisons contracted with the Department of the Army on behalf of the Manhattan Project to maintain those fields out in Vernita, White Bluffs, all in this area. And they agreed—they, the Department of the Army--agreed to build a, what they call, prison camp. It turned out to be right out on the bend of the Yakima River right near Horn Rapids Dam. And they constructed buildings, facilities, kitchens, dining areas, administration buildings, and the facilities to house and support approximately 250 federal prisoners who were brought in in early 1944 to take care of the agricultural needs of this area. And my father, who was at that point then had been with the federal prison at McNeil Island and had become a senior guard, was chosen to come over here and become superintendent of this camp. The name of the camp is Columbia Camp. And that's a little story in itself. The people in Washington, DC, were out here and didn't quite know the geography. They knew the Columbia River was here somewhere nearby, and even though the Yakima is a much smaller river, they didn't realize it. And so they named this federal prison camp Columbia Camp simply because they were on a river and they thought they were on the Columbia River. That's how it came to have the name Columbia Camp. Anyway, they started bringing the prisoners in in early 1944. And as I say, they typically for the next three and a half years, had about 250 prisoners on site at any given time. I think the number in the various information files I have, there were probably more like 700 prisoners rotated through this area. But the facilities were actually to hold about 250. So my dad took over as superintendent of the prison camp. He came here in early 1944, and initially they had—and I have many pictures of the whole camp, the buildings, and also the housing—there were initially 16 Quonset huts that were built out there for the initial officers and their families to move. At the time he came, those were the first. We moved in here actually on D Day, 1944, June 6<sup>th</sup>, in the middle of a major windstorm. And my mother who was born and raised in Western Washington, to arrive here in those kind of conditions—I don’t have to say that we had no air conditioning, and fans weren't even really very available. We moved into a Quonset hut. We ultimately, by the next spring, they—the Army, the prison—built eight more fancy housing. They brought in prefabs, the basic 609 square foot prefab that everybody in Richland is familiar with, of which there are still hundreds of them. That was the new fancy housing, and my dad as superintendent was able to claim the first one in the row next to the administration building. So in the next spring, then, we moved into a prefab. Again, I have lots of pictures, family pictures, of our housing. The kids, we were bused into Richland. Initially we all went to Sacajawea the first year we were there. And then when Jefferson grade school opened in the fall of '45, we all went there, switched over to there. We had a couple of older kids—family, kids in the camp—that went to high school at what was then called Columbia High School. My mother was a teacher, actually ended up teaching at Columbia High School part of the time that we were here. So as families living at Columbia Camp, we were bused into town, pretty much bused back home. And we played. As kids we played in the heat of the summer and cold in the winter and just pretty much in the desert surrounding the camp out there. The camp itself existed from early 1943. In early 1947, they started—they, again, the US Bureau of Prisons and the US Army--started writing back and forth corresponding about the continued need for the maintenance of the orchards and the fields and ultimately decided that it wasn't necessary anymore. And some of those fields ultimately were left to go, and others were maintained I guess in other ways. In the files that I have, my dad's files, I've got a tremendous amount of correspondence between he and the officials in Washington, DC. The Department of Army, I've got synopsis of what all was done during those period of years. I have interesting files about prisoners and some of their experiences in managing them as agricultural workers, how they got them to work every day, how they kept them fed every day. There's a lot of material in the files that I have of my dad's about that sort of thing. There's a lot of information about the contract itself between the US Army and the Federal Bureau of Prisons as far as payment of fees and expenses and also the type of crops that were harvested in volume and in prices and that sort of thing. It makes for very fascinating reading to have this kind of information available to me about what went on out there. Then ultimately in the fall of 1947, I think we were about the last to leave as a family. We left in November of '47. And basically the place was abandoned. I have, again in the files, there's information about dismantling the camp and sending knives and forks to Leavenworth and dishes to somewhere in Arizona. So there's a lot of very detailed information about the camp. But the long and the short of it is that the camp existed for those three and a half, almost four years. And very, very, very few people anywhere even know about it. The families, the other families, were rotated to different jobs. Three or four of the families went back to McNeil Island. Others went to Arizona, Leavenworth—other federal prison camps. And everybody just went their own way, and nobody was left here to even be a historian for what all went on. And thanks to my mother, who keeps all these documents and records and letters, and even—there’s a lot of letters between my father and my mother when he first came over here, where he's giving examples of daily life here in Richland in 1944 that are just fascinating reading. And the cost of a rental house that the government was charging for people and the cost to buy a refrigerator, things like that. So it's really fun for us to be able to come and sort of make some of this information available as to what Columbia Camp was all about over many, many, many years in Richland, because nobody was here to contradict that statement. A lot of people said, oh, it was a prisoner war camp. And ultimately, finally, that got changed. There was some documentation. At the present time, out at the day camp, there's a kiosk out there with a few pictures and a commentary posted out there, a little parking lot that you can drive to that gives just an extremely brief summary of what Columbia Camp was. There's a picture of a man, a far distant picture of a man standing in front of the administration building. Cannot guarantee it, but I think it—I'm pretty sure it's my dad. He was the superintendent of the camp, so his picture's out there in that kiosk for anybody that wants to go out there and look. But that's what Columbia Camp in a nutshell was all about. We have many, many, many pictures of the camp, the buildings, the dormitory buildings, the kitchen, the administration building, the power plant, the steam plant. And then we ourselves have taken pictures recently from some of those same positions, including the foundation of the steam plant that we've got so we can supplement a lot of what I've been talking about. Well, everything that I've been talking about we can supplement with pictures, and letters, and documents, and correspondence, and files.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Memories.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, right. So really interesting, and so first of all, let me confirm that there are still rumors out there. I've had students tell me, wasn't there a prisoner of war camp?</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Really?</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah, yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Or, wasn't a Japanese internment camp here?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: That's what--</p>
<p>Bauman: No.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Mm-mm.</p>
<p>Bauman: So this is great to--one great thing about interviewing you is to clarify that for people as well.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: One of the things that I'd like to bring in, because we didn't know about this for so long. Dad would not talk about his prison experiences. He was a loving, wonderful, wonderful father and grandfather and wonderful father-in-law. But this was never discussed. It wasn't until he died and I'm going through all of their things because Bob's an only child that I find all of this stuff. So Bob's mother's in a nursing home. She's quite elderly. We find this stuff. We get so excited over these pictures. Of course, she thought we were crazy to move to Richland anyway because her memories are not the Richland it is today. So we went, took all these pictures. And all she did was she took them from me, put them down in her purse. And I said, well, Mom, this is exciting. We found all dad's stuff, and we want to talk about it. No, it's secret. She would not talk about it. It was secret. And this is in 19--when did she die?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, this was in 1995, I think, that we--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: It was so ingrained in her, the secrecy of their lives, that even after all that time, she couldn't talk to us. So we took the pictures. I said, mom, I've got to have the pictures. And we took them back. But I think that's when it really hit me what their lives must have been like living here at that time.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right, that even that, which was only tangentially connected to Hanford--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Exactly.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yes. Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was very secret, right?</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.</p>
<p>Bauman: So let me ask you a few questions. So first of all, what was your father's name?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Harold E. Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: Harold Taylor, okay. And your mother's name?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Doris C. Taylor.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And so it was the three of you when you--well, your father came initially, and then you and your mother came.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Right, in June.</p>
<p>Bauman: In June of '44. And you mentioned the dust storm.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Termination wind.</p>
<p>Bauman: So, and you said that it could hold about 250 prisoners at the camp at once.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yes.</p>
<p>Bauman: So it was minimum security. So what sorts of--but they were federal prisoners.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: They were.</p>
<p>Bauman: So what sorts of crimes would these men have committed?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: The vast majority of federal prisoners were not necessarily minimum security, but they were white collar crimes. In some cases bank robbers would sometimes fit into the category, depends on the nature of the individual. But bank robbers weren't necessarily restricted from ever being in the so-called minimum security camps. And, see, we went back to McNeil Island, where my dad then took over the minimum security part of McNeil Island Federal Penitentiary. And so some of these same prisoners went with us back over there. That's kind of an aside, but it's part of explaining to you, or answering your question about minimum security and who qualified. I'll finish that answer first. A lot of them were conscientious objectors. And in fact there's correspondence in the files where prisoners would be sent here to Columbia Camp, but they were always—the conscientious objectors—they were always being monitored, talked to, perhaps convinced that it would be to their best interest if they would revoke their claim to being a conscientious objector and go back and join the Army and basically reinvent themselves in society. And there's a few prisoners did that. We've even got in those boxes, we've got a couple letters that one or two of them wrote to my dad personally thanking him. He's gone back, he's gone in the Army. He feels better about himself. So we've even got that kind of stuff in the file. Anyway, then, just as an interesting aside, when you talk about minimum security versus the hardcore inside the walls type, like at McNeil Island, state prisoners—murders, that sort of thing—of course they're maximum security. But any white collar crime, including—might not sound like white color crime—but bank robbery, that sort of thing, there can be any number of--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: In those days.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor:--forgers. There can be any number of kind of people that aren't really hardcore criminals, but they've made mistakes. They've done things bad. But they know that they're decent people. And these are the people that, even on McNeil Island, again, same as here, they would stay in a minimum security area and do the weeding, doing the gardening, doing the orchards, doing the fields, like over there like they were doing here. My dad, as superintendent of the camp at McNeil, we had kind of a beautiful estate, ranch home estate with about an acre and a half of rockeries and gardens and rose trellises. And we had five--as a kid, I never mowed the yard. I had five prisoners that—we did, the family did—that took care of our yard and our place. It was kind of a strange childhood that I had. But that's what minimum security means, that they could be trusted. They were called trustees, as a matter of fact.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so about how large of a staff was there working at the camp?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Here at Columbia Camp, there were 24. 24 with families, and then there were another ten to 12 that lived in Prosser, Benton City, some of them right here in Richland that would come to work. So there was less than 40 total staff, 24 of whom were on site with families.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Tell him the story that you were telling me about Dad writing a note about getting these guys to come in on Sunday for roll call.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Oh, it was one of the notes, one of the memorandums to his officers in the files that I read. It's something to the effect—no, I guess it was a memo to the entire camp, to the prisoners and the officers. And it's just kind of a tongue-in-cheek, that it seems to be hard to get prisoners to make bed call or duty call or account for themselves on the weekends. And it was just kind of an interesting, the way he wrote that even on the weekends, they still, after all, are prisoners and have to account for themselves. They actually only had I think it was three escapes. Nobody actually ever fully totally escaped. They had three that walked away, but they were caught along the river on the way to Benton City. So that was part of the minimum security idea is that they weren't particularly threats. They knew they just needed to serve their time and get out. And so they weren't trying to break out.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: And where could they go? That's the desert. There's no transportation. That's one of the stories Dad did tell me about two of the guys walking to Benton City. And of course they didn't get there because there's nowhere to hide.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so how old were you then when you came here?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: My birthday's in July, so I was six years old when we moved here in June. And as I said, it was D-Day. And then just turned seven in July, and then I was ten when we left in late '47.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And so what was that like as someone roughly between the ages of seven and ten living out here in the camp in initially a Quonset hut? Is that right?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Initially in Quonset hut and then in a prefab. Well, first of all, six-to-ten-year-olds don't really think about hot and cold. The only thing that we were ever really cautioned about by our parents is it's a little problematic to go running around in the desert barefooted. There were rattlesnakes. Never got bit by one. Saw a few. But we had the swimming hole right there at the bend of the river for summertime, spent a lot of time in the swimming. The pictures you can see the two rows of Quonset huts. It was kind of, I call it a parkway, which wasn't necessarily what you would call a bunch of grass in 1944. But nevertheless, there was a grassy strip, two street, two roads for cars, and the Quonset huts and in the middle grassy strip that that's where we played our soccer and mostly soccer that we played there as kids. And we were either in the river, out there in that strip, or just wandering out in the desert barefoot. And with our bicycles, there's a picture I've got showing me standing beside a tree that was very near our house that I crashed into and cut my head open. That sort of thing as living here as a kid. We were typical kids, even though we were--in fact, my entire life growing up was always subject to prison service. We lived on McNeil Island, which was, when we went back, I mean, my grade school and my high school years, I went to school in Lakewood Tacoma, Clover Park High School. But we still lived on the island. We had to catch a prison launch back and forth every day. As kids growing up, none of us ever had the typical life experience of just walking to the store, walking to the theater. We didn't live on Swift and could walk down to the Village—to the theater. We never had those kind of experiences. Speaking of the theater, we did get to come into town. Our parents would carpool or whatever, and we'd come into town to the Hopalong Cassidy, Tom Mix movies on Saturday afternoon at the Village Theater here in Richland. But it was never anything we could ride our bike to or walk to.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, about getting into town and how often you were able to do that. And what was the town of Richland like? What sorts of memories do you have?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, I mean, you've got all the pictures as a historian. You know what Richland basically looked like in 1944, 1945. It was like that. I mean, we came into school. The first year I said we went to Sacajawea. The second year, we from then on went to Jefferson. We would become friends with kids in the class and do things with kids in the class, but it was always more difficult. I was in Cub Scouts. My dad would have to drive in to make separate arrangements to go, and to some of the other kids out there as well, to come in to the Cub Scout meetings. One of my memories, and I'm not sure why, but one of my memories was one of the girls’ parents had--and I don't quite understand it now, but her parents had—I can't say they owned, but maybe they did—a large enough piece of ground that she could ride her horses. And I remember some of us—and it was like right here. It was straight north from Jefferson that we would come out of town, although not very far, and ride horses out here in the open prairie. And it might have been right here. I don't know. But we were able to socialize to some degree with the kids in town. But again, one of the things that I have to say, it's like my mother. Even as kids, talked about secrecy. We were instilled with absolutely every bit of that, just like the adults. We absolutely were. And it was just a way of life, so we didn't question it. We didn't try to violate it. We just--everything was secret.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you didn't talk to anyone about the camp at all really?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Just that we lived out there. And that was all.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. So did you know what Hanford was, what was going on?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: No, not until the bomb was dropped and the paper headline right here in Richland. That's when we knew what was going on. The road now as you go out there is not the same road it was then. What is Horn Rapids Road, which comes across—wherever we are—comes across, that was the road that we came in on. So we came in a little further north into Richland than we do now, where the intersection is. And so right at that corner right there was the beginning of the trailer camp where so many people were living and so many of the kids in school with me were living in the trailer camp. And there was a wire fence along the road, and so we just knew we were outside the fence, and something was going on on the other side of the fence. But we didn't know what it was—until the article came out in the paper.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned, so, the prisoners, would they get transported, then to different fields--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: They were bused.</p>
<p>Bauman: --to different farms then?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: There were like, I think as I recall in reading the files, there were sometimes as many as ten different gangs or groups, for lack of a better term, that were bused out to the various sites. And that's part of what's in my dad's files is just the logistics of taking--they called it dinner then--lunch out to feed everybody at lunchtime, and just the difficulties of that sort of thing in running this prison camp. Because some of them out in Vernita, for instance, they basically had to leave with the lunch service right after breakfast to get it out there. Because the road, the road was not great going out to Vernita from here. The road that we drive now and think nothing of was basically just a dirt road in those days going out there. Because the road, the paved road, bent south and went to Benton City when you go out that way. So yeah, there were a number of different orchards. I can remember clearly the—what are now all the Richland ranches on Cottonwood and Birch and Cedar, all those where all the Richland ranches were ultimately built in 1948. All of that was cherry orchards. And we always had one or two crews harvesting the cherries, for instance, right here in town. And a couple times my dad brought me out and actually I helped them pick cherries. So that's just one of my memories is picking cherries in what is now that major housing part of Richland.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. Now, so, in 1947, when the camp closed and you left, I assume maybe your mother was probably happy about going back to the west side? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Extremely, yes, extremely happy to get back to the cool west side, yes.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: She was a tiny, tiny, lovely lady, a teacher. Heart and soul a teacher, and totally supportive of Bob's father. But she wasn't happy to be here at all. [LAUGHTER] And she was very, very happy when they finally left.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned she taught at Columbia High School.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: What did she teach?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: English, primarily English. And she was in charge of the journalism one school year.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: She had to quit teaching, though, because of her duties as--and the words are official hostess of the camp, which is really interesting. She organized bridge activities, social activities, to keep the wives that were thrown out here in the middle of the desert happy. Because of course they weren't working, very many of them. So she worked that first year at Hanford, and then she quit and was kept busy keeping activities going on for the women and children.</p>
<p>Bauman: That’s very interesting. Were there a lot of children around your age you were able to play with?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I'm trying to remember. There were, of my own specific age that were my closest friends, there were seven of us that were either within one grade one way or the other. I think there were some older kids that came into high school. Our bus—I think there were about a total of 12 or 14 of us rode the bus into town. There certainly weren't two kids in every household of the 24 officers that worked there. Some of them were more senior and kids were grown and gone.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did you have your own bus, then, that would just take a group of kids from the camp?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I guess, yeah, we must have, that there was just a bus that came out and got us and took us back into town. There was nobody else to pick up. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: And do you remember how you felt about first of all coming here? Do you have any memories of that, and then when you left in 1947?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I certainly had no--at age six, everything in the world was exciting to me. I think I mentioned earlier heat and wind, that sort of thing didn't really mean much of anything to me. I have no recollection of being upset about being here, other than knowing that my mother was upset about being here. I liked it here. I had good friends. I was kind of disappointed to go back to McNeil Island. Three of my closest friends at camp that were out there too--let's see, Kenny and Jerry and—</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Were they out there then?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah. There were, I think, five of us actually went back to McNeil Island. So, at least I wasn't--had my friends going back there with me, which made it better. And then we had a very--from a prefab in the desert, we went back to a fairly palatial estate that we lived on because of my dad's position, so I liked that. And then that next year I started junior high at Clover Park. And so starting then I went back to--I rode the boat to Steilacoom and caught the bus to school. And then I was off on a whole ‘nother part of my life. I think I'd say I was probably happy to be leaving, but not the way my mother was happy to be leaving.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Well, I think it was a pretty idyllic childhood for kids like this. They've got the free reign of the desert, within reason. They've got the swimming pool. Nobody was worrying about jumping into the Yakima River. And they had friends, and they'd go into the movies. We've got a picture of Bob--we think it's Bob--with his buddies. There was a picture in Richland years ago at the post office there was a little museum.</p>
<p>Bauman: A kind of display.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah. And there's a picture of the kids outside the Uptown--not the Uptown, the old Village Theater. And we're pretty sure he's there. But the stories he would tell me, running around, riding their bikes, it was--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I just think of it as fun and unique. I really do.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: What about the stories about Dad and the baseball field? They had a baseball field there for the prisoners, for their recreation.</p>
<p>Bauman: Oh, at the camp.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, that was their big activity on the weekends. They had a very nice ball field. Again, there's pictures of it outside of the administration building. And my dad was a good guy. For somebody in 1934 to survive starting as a prison guard at McNeil Island, those were tough times. Those were really tough times. I don't mean living as a family, my mom and dad. I mean just as a human being who felt some degree of emotion about people. Prison guards anywhere in any prison in 1934 were really tough, mean guys. They had to be. But when he came over here, he really--and it shows in his correspondence--he really had a lot of humanity and caring. And he ran a really great camp here and has lots of letters saying so from people, from superiors. What started me on that was just her idea about the baseball. He wanted to make sure that they had sporting activities to do things with over the weekend.</p>
<p>Bauman: Recreation and entertainment.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: I find it very interesting neither of your parents really talked about this stuff, but they kept--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah, oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: --the photos and the documents that you didn't even know.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah. We didn't realize they had all that.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: And Dad would talk about it a little bit. It wasn't like he never talked about it. But he told me the story one time about the prisoners escaping, and he talked some of these things. But it wasn't something that you talked about very much. It was once in a while. I mean, like every few years there'd be a comment. But Mom didn't talk about it at all, other than the teaching, which of course she loved to be a teacher and loved doing that. But it was a very, very quiet non-discussed part of their lives.</p>
<p>Bauman: Are there any other either events or things that happened that were humorous or special things, memories that stand out in your mind about your years here?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: One of my major memories actually was the very first summer we were here. And three or four six-year-old boys never, ever, ever, ever got in trouble. But for some reason, we chose to go into the crawl space underneath our Quonset hut. I mean, there was no foundation in the sense you’d think of a foundation. But there was a raised floor and so there was space under there with snakes and bugs and spiders. And my parents never specifically told me, don't ever go down there. You'd sort of think that was understood. But three of us, one hot, hot, hot day, we thought, well, it was just boiling hot outside. It was boiling hot in the Quonset hut. Those things are not fit for human habitation without air conditioning. And so we got the smart idea it might be cooler down there in the crawl space. So we got down in the crawl space, and then for some reason some guards--I say guards—some of the men came around doing some kind of a check of the housing. I don't know what they were necessarily—but here we were, little boys where we were pretty sure we weren't supposed to be, and the adult men walking around sounded like we just knew they were looking specifically for us to get us in trouble. That's kind of silly, really, but it was a big thing for me as six years old to be down there where I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be and knew what kind of trouble I was going to be in when they found us. The other thing is the coming into the shows in the afternoon and standing in the line outside the theater. And, as I say, Tom Mix, and Hopalong Cassidy, and whoever else, the Saturday afternoon shows at the theater. I remember going to those a lot.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: One of the fun things that we go out to there. We hadn't been there for a few years, out to the camp. It's just kind of fun to walk around and realize what was there--the families, the men—brought together from all over the country for one purpose. And they fulfilled their purpose and kept the orchards going and the fields, and then they left. And to me there's a lot of kind of neat spirit and ghost—ghost isn't the right word. But there's a sense that there was something really interesting, good happening here—good or bad depending on the way you looked at it. But it's just an interesting place to go and walk around out there. You should do it sometime.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. And a unique place.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Very unique, very unique. And it's fun to walk around, and we think we found the kitchen. So I'm thinking about the guy making the good cinnamon rolls. He was there. And you think you found where Dad—where the office was.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I can identify where the administration building was. But the various cement foundations or partial foundations that are still out there can pretty well match up with the pictures that we have from back then.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, great. Maybe this might be a good time, then, to sort of end this part, unless there's something we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to in this part of the--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Well, I've covered the things that I certainly, the bullet points that I had in mind that I wanted to cover. There's probably always more things to talk about. Part of it is sitting and having the box and going through and pulling a piece of paper might remind me to say something else. But I feel comfortable right now in saying that anybody watching this interview is going to know a whole lot more about what Columbia Camp was about than they knew before. And that's the main point of what we're trying to accomplish here.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: There were no fences at Columbia Camp.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Right.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: There were no fences.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Right.</p>
<p>Bauman: Right. And these were all male prisoners, right?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, well, maybe this would be a good time to end this part, and then we can look at some of the photos and have you comment some of those.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: I wish that they had shared it with--Bob's mom and dad had shared it with us sooner, because there would be so many more stories and so much more understanding.</p>
<p>Man one: Okay, so I'm going to give this. Why was it located--I mean, I know it was located for the orchard support and stuff. But why where it was? Ever hear why it was located?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I don't specifically know, other than it was near Hanford. It was on the river, which helped with the infrastructure. It was away from this burgeoning 1,500 population big town of Richland.</p>
<p>Man one: And yet kind of remote.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: And kind of remote. I mean, it was remote for those days.</p>
<p>Bauman: Like you said, escaping was tricky because--</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah, it was far enough.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Man one: It was Alcatraz in its own way.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Well, it was. It was, because it was--I mean, can you just imagine being out there and trying to escape? And how are you going to get water? It's the true desert.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: I guess the real answer is, if you realize that Hanford took everything from here north and they weren't going to go across the river, and here's Richland, and down there is Benton City, and this is the Yakima winding out there and just kind of a nice little bend in the river of the Yakima.</p>
<p>Bauman: I love that they call it Columbia Camp even though it's not--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Isn't that funny?</p>
<p>Man one: I know, it's great. Close enough.</p>
<p>Bauman: They didn't know their geography very well.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah. We know it wasn't Bob's father because there were guys from Washington out here long before that. But it's kind of interesting.</p>
<p>Man two: Well, [INAUDIBLE] will bring that light around, put it behind that camera if it'll reach. If it won't I'll bring--or just unplug it and I'll move this cord.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: What you doing?</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Just got one minor issue. I'm just seeing if anything's--</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Yeah, this guy had no clue what it's like to be raised in the city, because he started--</p>
<p>Man one: The stories that you tell remind me of this other guy I knew that had grown up--his father was in the Navy. And he grew up on Midway, I think. Midway or Wake Island where it was a mile this way, and it was two miles that way, and that was it.</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Yeah.</p>
<p>Man one: And as a kid, he loved it. Down at the beach, having a good time, going to the movies, all he wanted, soda pop and all that stuff. But the parents were going crazy.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bob Taylor: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>Dianne Taylor: Well, when we got this little note from Bob's mother--there's pictures in there of the women of the camp. And if you watched at all the Manhattan Project TV show that was on for a while, these gals are—it's the same women.</p>
Duration
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00:45:43
Bit Rate/Frequency
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189 kbps
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1944-1947
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Harold E. Taylor
Doris C. Taylor
Kenny
Jerry
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob and Dianne Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Bob and Dianne Taylor conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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06-10-2015
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
1955
Dam
Hanford
Manhattan Project
Park
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
River
Road
School
Sun
swimming
Theater
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F0e8ec1acfacc64c93a4185af1960afd1.JPG
ba0753bebe4a5e9196d61a13dd7642d3
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4deb5256e218f3c0425866921dafc55e.mp4
9c9701135b3936f46666e429fb158abd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Barbara Brown Taylor
Location
The location of the interview
Clark Place in Moscow, Idaho
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Camera man: Whenever you’re-</p>
<p>Robert Franklin: Ready?</p>
<p>Camera man: We’re ready for you, yeah. Do your thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, let’s, yeah, let’s go. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Barbara Brown Taylor on January 6<sup>th</sup>, 2017. The interview is being conducted at Clark Place in Moscow, Idaho. I will be talking with Barbara about her experiences growing up at the Hanford Site and her father’s experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us?</p>
<p>Barbara Brown Taylor: Barbara Brown Taylor. B-A-R-B-A-R-A, B-R-O-W-N, T-A-Y-L-O-R, no hyphens.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great, thank you. So let’s start from the beginning. How did you come to the Hanford Site?</p>
<p>Taylor: In 1943, my father was hired from a company—wait a minute, take that off. In 1943, my father was hired to be the landscape architect in a new city. What an exciting thing for a landscape architect, what kind of an exciting job! We came from Illinois. I don’t know if he was the sole architect, but I do remember some of the things he did. That’s how I came here.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how old were you when you came?</p>
<p>Taylor: I was eight.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so the city that you’re talking about, that would have been Richland?</p>
<p>Taylor: Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Richland, Washington.</p>
<p>Taylor: And we didn’t know, of course, what it was. It was just a new city in the desert, had something to do with the war.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were the Alphabet Houses being constructed at that point-</p>
<p>Taylor: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or did you arrive before—okay.</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, he arrived in ’43.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Taylor: The houses were being built. And my mother and brother and I lived on a farm in Illinois until my father wrote to us and said, the house is ready. So at that time, you signed up for a house, the men did the work there. As soon as it was ready, you could bring your family. It didn’t have any glass in the windows, but it was ready.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. That seems like a pretty crucial component of—</p>
<p>Taylor: My mother thought so. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, especially with the winds that would blow.</p>
<p>Taylor: Absolutely, absolutely. It was covered with dust.</p>
<p>Franklin: So your father, then, would have worked with Albin Pherson, the head architect for the—</p>
<p>Taylor: I assume so. He didn’t talk about the people he worked with. I never met another landscape architect there. He was very busy all the time, because he had a crew that supplied the grass seed and rented—not rented, lent out the lawn mowers and shovels and all sorts of things. As I remember him saying, there was an instruction sheet, which he put out. Somehow the government decided you couldn’t just have a city built on sand with nothing in the yards. Maybe you couldn’t keep people there. I don’t know the reason. But they hired these crews of men who worked on supplying the needs to do a lawn. And as I remember it, you had to have a lawn. If you couldn’t do it with what the city gave you free, then you had to pay somebody to put your lawn in. Because after a certain amount of time, you had to have a lawn.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm.</p>
<p>Taylor: Not necessarily flowers, just you had to have grass.</p>
<p>Franklin: You had to have grass. What other kinds of work did your father do besides planning out yards and lawns and things like that?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, he did that for churches and schools. There were only two churches, a Catholic church and a Protestant church. The government built two churches. That was it. And he would landscape those. Any public buildings that needed it—library—there were a few things like that. It was very sketchy and basic at the beginning.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Taylor: So I think he landscaped whatever was there. I think that’s why they brought him.</p>
<p>Franklin: Tell me about growing up in wartime Richland. Where did you go to school, did you go to church, you know, what was the atmosphere like there?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, I was eight. And we came here in June, and September was the first day of school. And I went to Lewis and Clark Grade School, which was right up the street of Locke. I lived on Casey Street in an A house. I walked up to school. And that first day, the teacher said, I want to know where all of you are from. Give your name and tell us where you came from. So one at a time, we got up, gave our names. I said Illinois. One of my new friends said New Jersey. Somebody else said Texas, somebody else said Colorado. And I thought at the time, I don’t think this has ever happened before. I don’t think the first day of school, people are from somewhere else. And I’ve always remembered that, how interesting that was to see all those new kids make new friends. When you’re a kid, as long as you’re with your parents and you feel love in a family, it’s great to have new adventures. [LAUGHTER] I don’t think my mother liked it at all! But, you know. That’s one thing. The first year, perhaps a little longer, but the first year, there were no telephones in homes. And as I recall, if the wife was going to have a baby, they would issue her a phone for the period just before she had the baby. So she could call the doctor, her husband at work, whatever. But the minute she had the baby, they came and took the phone out. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Taylor: And there was a phone that first summer on many telephone poles. The kind that just hangs up. You could go there and make a call, free. But you had to find one to do that, because there just wasn’t that accessibility to phones.</p>
<p>Franklin: How would you know who to call? Would you get an operator when you—</p>
<p>Taylor: You’d get an operator, of course. You always got an operator in those days.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, and then they would connect you to another telephone on a pole on a different street? Or how would—</p>
<p>Taylor: No, no, you probably wouldn’t get a call back. I don’t remember ever walking down the street and hearing a phone ring. [LAUGHTER] It was an out kind of thing. Let’s say you wanted to call your grandmother in Illinois or something. You might get to use it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, I see. It wasn’t an in-town—</p>
<p>Taylor: No, not really. I don’t think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what did your mother do?</p>
<p>Taylor: My mother was a homemaker, but she had been a registered nurse. And she went back to that when I grew up and was off to college.</p>
<p>Franklin: And were your parents still in Richland at the time?</p>
<p>Taylor: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Taylor: Here’s the thing. I don’t think that the government intended to keep the city. As I remember, we were going to live there as long as we needed to. When the war was over, you’d all go back to wherever you came from or somewhere else. But they didn’t build that city to keep. The wood was not the best, the floors were pine and splintered. Those little prefabs—I didn’t live in one, but they were tiny.</p>
<p>Franklin: I live in one.</p>
<p>Taylor: So you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: They’re very tiny.</p>
<p>Taylor: You know what I mean. They were built out of cardboard—I mean plywood. Plywood was new in those days. And they built them so fast that I remember going to that school up the street, to Lewis and Clark, that first year. And there’d be one when I’d go to school, and when I came back there’d be three.</p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Taylor: So during the day I was going to school, the men were slapping those things together. It was interesting [LAUGHTER] seeing, ooh, we have a new house, we have a new house.</p>
<p>Franklin: What do you think your mother did not like about living—you mentioned that she wasn’t too happy about moving there?</p>
<p>Taylor: Oh, she was from Illinois—they were. And Illinois is a green, beautiful state with woods. And Richland was sand. It was sand. So when we moved in, there was no glass in the windows, which they said they’d put in pretty soon. And the yard was all sand. My mother would look out the window with no glass in it, and almost cry. I was eight, and I looked out the window and saw the little girl next door playing in the sand in front of our house. And I remember yelling out the window to her, stop playing in our yard! Stop digging our yard! She was digging a hole in our yard. And my mother put her head against the wall and said, Barbara, we don’t have a yard! [LAUGHTER] Which was very true; we didn’t. As soon as the work really got going with planting the grass everywhere, I remember my father going out—there were things called tract houses, which had been there before the Hanford place was built. Some of them were abandoned, because the government had bought them. They were abandoned, and here were rose bushes and lilac bushes and things that people had had in their yards. Since it now belonged to the government, my father had permission to go and get them. And he would. He took his trailer and he went out there and dug them up himself and brought them in and put some of them at the libraries, and some of them at the churches, whatever. That was one reason we had nice shrubs. Because he would do that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Where was your father stationed during those war years?</p>
<p>Taylor: Where did he live?</p>
<p>Franklin: Where did he work, where was his office, where did he work out of? Or was he just kind of a roving—</p>
<p>Taylor: No, it wasn’t freelance in any way. There were government buildings. There was probably a landscaping building with a parking lot full of lawnmowers. One of his crew was in charge of the lawnmowers. They were probably locked or fenced or something. He had some kind of a building, maybe a hutment—I don’t know what kind it was. I didn’t see him at work. I saw the results of his work.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Taylor: And he also had trucks and drove around in a truck and worked out of his truck, too. The crews, of course, did the work. He was the manager at the time, after he landscaped all the buildings and how they were going to look, ultimately. And he turned the papers over to his supervisors, and they did the work.</p>
<p>Franklin: How did your father get started with landscaping architecture?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, at the University of Illinois, just before I was born, he graduated in the architecture department, which at that time had the landscape architecture program in it. So he really was an architect with a specialty in landscape architecture. He was just out of college in 1929 when the Masters Tournament golf course was being built. He was very fortunate to know a man named Bobby Jones who designed the—he was an architect, designed the Masters Tournament—built the course. And he hired a bunch of just-out-of-college men like my father. My father and mother had just gotten married. They went to Augusta, Georgia, and my father worked on that golf course. He did some of the—what’s that white part?</p>
<p>Franklin: Sand trap?</p>
<p>Taylor: Sand trap.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’m not much of a golfer.</p>
<p>Taylor: He worked on the sand traps, designing them. And had little models—plaster of Paris models. I wish I had one today, because we always had them around the house. Which my father had gotten when the thing was built. Then they didn’t need those anymore. So he had done that for a few years. By the way, the Masters Tournament golf course was built in 1929. My father told me the money to build it was in escrow. The people who had given the money to build this beautiful golf course had their money tied up in a way that the stock market couldn’t touch it. So that’s why they could build such a beautiful thing in 1929.</p>
<p>Franklin: I see.</p>
<p>Taylor: And ’30, I think. Anyway, that’s what he did. Then during the war, he had a harder time because who was landscaping anything? Not very many people. And he got a job with the government in the CCC program—he was a supervisor in Illinois in the woods where they had workers that were building roads and bridges and beautiful little stone—what do you call that? Well, stone bridges, I guess. And I remember those days, I was very little, like four or five. But I remember that he would take me to the woods and show me what he was doing. So he had that job, and that was a very steady job, because the CCC supported a lot of people during those days. That would have been the ‘30s. Then when the war came along, there were some military plants. One was at Kankakee, and we were there for a year or two, where my father was in charge of all the grounds for the whole plant. I think it was at that time that he was approached to come to Richland. Because they were building Hanford. And they had to build the city, even if they weren’t going to keep it. They had to build it. And hired him to do it. There weren’t that many landscape architects in those days.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: So I think the word must have gotten out that there was one available.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long—so your father, did he stay working for Hanford, for the government after the war ended?</p>
<p>Taylor: Yes. A lot of people stayed. I don’t think that the government people understood the idea of a sense of place, where people make their home somewhere and they’re very reluctant to let go of it, even if it has pine floors and is not very up-to-date with everything. Their kids were now in school. They had a job. And it was far enough from the cities—some people liked that, and wanted to stay. It’s right on the edge of the Columbia River, which is one of the most beautiful places in the world. So, my father joined them and wherever there was a job that he could get—because he also had many drafting skills and things like that. There was also a program called the as-built program. I think that was in the ‘50s. But Hanford had been thrown up so fast that there hadn’t been good blueprints of what they did. They hired my dad to run a little office with lots of blueprint machines. And he and some other people would go out and look at the buildings and draw, you know, make sketches of what was really there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Taylor: The measurements and all that. And then the idea was now the government knows. Now the firetrucks can go to the right place. Because there were places nobody knew what they were, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. Yeah, no, I’ve heard of that program before. And, like you said, it was very necessary.</p>
<p>Taylor: It was very useful, very useful. Then, about that time, 1955, ’56, people were building golf courses again. They hadn’t been all through the war. I don’t think there was one built—but I don’t know that. But they were building them, and Richland wanted to have a golf course and Kennewick wanted to have a golf course—just nine holes. And they hired my dad to design these. Interestingly enough, my father was very generous, and he accepted the jobs even though they weren’t going to pay him. They agreed to give him memberships in the clubs to cover what they should have given him for a salary. [LAUGHTER] Because that’s all they had to offer. And he wanted to see golf courses there. So he built one in Kennewick, and he built one in Richland. He also built Columbia Park, which is all along the river, maybe one of the longest parks in Washington. I don’t know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p>Taylor: But it’s very long, and it’s very narrow—some places only 20 feet.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm. And when you say built it, he—</p>
<p>Taylor: Designed it. He had a good arrangement there, because a lot of the woodsy part—he was very fond of Russian olive trees. And a lot of those were already there, all along the river. So all he had to do was built driveways and parking spots, camping spots, and smooth out the rough places. Make a road—because there’s a road the whole length of it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that’s a very widely used park in town. It’s a great park.</p>
<p>Taylor: He loved doing that. I don’t know what they paid him for that. Much later, he built the Memorial Gardens, along the west edge of Richland, which is a cemetery. I have a picture in there of my parents. They gave them a pair of plots instead of paying them. Because they didn’t have the money to pay them. My father wanted a cemetery there. So, I think he was very generous. He was very community-minded. He was on the Benton County Planning Commission for many years. Encouraging parks, encouraging more and more landscaping and making it a more livable town. It needed to be kept up; the work that was done at the beginning needed to be continued, because there were a lot of people who lived there. And he could see the need for that. He told me once, if you live in a desert, you need twice as many trees. And I don’t think everyone agreed with that. Some of the businessmen thought, there’s some land; we’ll build on it. But my father hoped he could get parks in there. And he had to go through the council—Benton County Council—to get those parks approved.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. How long—did your parents stay in Richland for the rest of their lives?</p>
<p>Taylor: They did.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Taylor: They did. I wanted to tell you that my father died of liver cancer. And we always thought it was the plant. Because when he was in the as-built program, he had to go and inspect the buildings. And one day, he came home and told my mother that the little badge he had to wear had gone off. Lit up, made a noise, and that meant he had been overexposed to something. They had taken him into a safe room, made him shower, given him different clothes, sent him to the doctor. And within a year, he was dead. He had liver cancer. And he never drank. We knew it was not that kind of thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: And a lot of people had that happen. It hasn’t been added up, I don’t think. But there were a lot of people like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And what year did he pass away?</p>
<p>Taylor: 1966.</p>
<p>Franklin: 1966.</p>
<p>Taylor: He was 64 years old.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. And you mentioned that you had grown up there and then eventually went to college. What year did you leave Richland to go to—</p>
<p>Taylor: 1953.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Right. So I’m wondering if you could tell me a little more about growing up in Richland. Did you stay in that same A house for the time that you were there?</p>
<p>Taylor: Yes, yes, until I went to college and got married a year or so later. My parents lived in that house. And then it became possible for residents to buy houses.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, in 1958.</p>
<p>Taylor: They could buy the ones they were in and they could also buy ones nobody wanted. So they bought theirs. And they bought a little one on the other side of town as an investment, which they rented out. A lot of people did that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. I wonder if you could tell me about what you remember about the coming of the commercial—like the Uptown and kind of how Richland transitioned a little bit after the war. To start to become more of a normal town, but still totally government-owned and controlled.</p>
<p>Taylor: Yes, I can tell you that. I thought Uptown was great. There was a theater there! There were stores there, which we hadn’t had much of before. My father was very busy trying to get a park in the spot where that was. And writing things for the <em>Tri-City Herald</em>. And going to the Benton County meetings, trying to encourage a park in that spot. It was quite near a school and the school had a big yard. But there was George Washington Way, was right between where he wanted the park, where Uptown is. And the businessmen just, you know, they had the power and they got it. I always enjoyed it, because I was just a kid. I was in high school at that time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: Didn’t realize how ahead of his time my father was. Because he loved trees, he loved building a better environment for people. Considered himself a conservationist. Also considered himself an urban planner, because that’s right in that—he didn’t have degrees in that. But I don’t know that there were degrees at that time. He just built on his education as he went along and did a lot in those fields.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you remember the day when people found out about what had been produced at Hanford, or what was being produced at Hanford?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, I was nine.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: What did I know? I was nine. I saw—we took the <em>Walla Walla Union Bulletin</em> paper. I was sitting on the front lawn, and the paper came. And said something like, the war is over. It was our bomb. Something like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Taylor: And I looked at it. With my nine-year-old understanding, I thought, does this mean we’re leaving? Does this mean the end of Richland? Of course, I didn’t know. I remember that paper, I just don’t remember the exact words of the headline. My parents kept it for a long time, and a lot of people did—kept that newspaper that came out. And of course, I didn’t know what the place was for anyway, except something about the war. And we had lived at Kankakee, and that was something about the war. But my father didn’t seem like the kind of person that would be working in chemistry or in physics or anything like that. By the way, my father grew up in a Quaker family.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Taylor: And he was very pacifist.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Taylor: I think he would not have been in any kind of a job that had to do with hurting people. But he didn’t know what it was for. He didn’t know it was a terrible bomb that was being built. And he had a good job. I mean, coming out of the Depression, if you could get a good job, you took it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right, yeah. No questions asked. What do you remember about civil defense? Drills and things like that in kind of the early part of the Cold War?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, I remember getting under the desk. I don’t remember much other than that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever feel any fear or anxiety about living so close to Hanford, something that might have been a potential target in the case of aggression?</p>
<p>Taylor: No. I think a lot of kids might have. But my parents were not the kind to let us worry. And years later, my mother told me, Barbara, we didn’t know that America was going to win. We had no idea. We had been through the First World War, we had been through the Depression. We knew bad things could happen. And here was the country fighting on two fronts, two parts of the world. We were not having you worry. Because we never knew whether we would win. So we didn’t tell you much. When the newspaper came, we got it, we read it, we read the cartoons to you. You listened to Charlie McCarthy, and the Great Gildersleeve. All those humorous shows, Jack Benny. All those things that never touched on the war.</p>
<p>Franklin: What about later, though, during the Cold War? When you would have been in high school or starting to get a little bit older and maybe hearing more about the kind of conflicts that the US was involved in?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, I did have an interesting situation. After I married, my husband joined the Army, because there was a draft. And his grades were not as high as they should have been. He was going to Eastern, to college—Eastern Washington College in Cheney. His grades were not as good as they could have been, so he decided to join. Because they promised him an electronics job. He didn’t have to a frontline military person.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Taylor: And he wanted to be in electronics. So he joined in 1957. And our little boy was born in ’59. I went to Germany a few months after that. My father said, don’t take that baby over there. Because he had been through the Second World War and he knew how bad things could be. And there was a wall.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Taylor: And there were all those things. And we were--I don’t know how many miles from the wall he was. And he didn’t want me to go. That was one of the few times I ever saw him cry. So we went, we stayed there two years, had a wonderful time going to places even though we didn’t have any money. But it was dangerous. The Army told us, you must keep several days’ worth of diapers, food, clothes, all your papers—you must keep them in one place. Because some morning, a truck may pull up in front of your house—an Army truck. And they’ll say, come and bring your things. And we had to get in the truck—they warned us this might happen—and we’ll drive to France. They had places of protection and more food and care for the children and all that. But it’ll be in France.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: If something happens with the wall.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you think your parents might have felt anxiety during the Cold War, living in Hanford in kind of a—I mean, now knowing what was being produced there and that it might have been a target for retaliation?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, they never said so. They never said so; they didn’t want to worry us. That’s the kind of parents they were. They protected their children. I think there were a lot of young people who had parents like that. I don’t remember anybody saying they were scared.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: They were busy going to school. We never felt like we didn’t have a future.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever come back to Richland? I’m assuming you probably would’ve come back to visit your family, but did you ever come back to live there again?</p>
<p>Taylor: Yes, my husband and our children came back to live there for a short time when he got out of the Army, he happened to be—it was 19-early-60s and it was hard to get jobs. He got a job there inspecting pipes. The kind of pipes that had nuclear things going through them. And they were welded. He got jobs inspecting the welding. He didn’t like that kind of thing, and so he went on and did other things. He had a degree in industrial arts. He did some drafting for a while. And then he became a police officer in Pullman.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Taylor: So that’s how we ended up back in Pullman and raised our kids there. So I only went back to Richland a few years. Wanted to go back to Pullman. I really had a good time in college there, and I liked having a university. There wasn’t any Tri-Cities center at that time—Tri-Cities branch.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And then you mentioned that you worked at WSU as well.</p>
<p>Taylor: 27 years, yeah. From 1967 to 1995. From 1967 to 1995, I was a full-time secretary at WSU. And felt very good about it. I loved working at a university. I went to school along with it, which was great because I had not quite finished college. And so I took a lot of classes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is there anything else that you’d like to—that we haven’t touched on, that you’d like to talk about? About your father or Hanford or Richland or your own life?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, Richland was a very safe place for children at that time. As I look back, I didn’t appreciate that. We could get on our bicycles and ride anywhere in town as long as we were home for dinner. We could go to friends’, we could go to school, we could be in summer programs. They always had summer activities for the kids. And I think a lot of the amenities that a city has, even though it was a small town—actually we called it a village. It was known as a village. But I loved that. The freedom. And now, of course, you can’t just tell a kid, just be home for dinner. But they did. I could go to the movies on Saturday. There were two theaters and they had double features all the time. I always felt free to do whatever. I think it felt safe to do that. Another reason might have been we were very middle class. I never saw a black child when I was in school.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, because African Americans weren’t allowed to live in Richland.</p>
<p>Taylor: They were not allowed to work there. I don’t think that was an open policy, but they didn’t. They lived in Pasco.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Taylor: And they were not really given jobs at Hanford. I didn’t know about different races. I was a child. It was a middle class town, and you had to have a job to have a house.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And everybody worked for the same employer.</p>
<p>Taylor: Absolutely, at the beginning, they did. Everybody did. I remember my mother saying when they first moved there, rent was $27 a month. And it was an A house. $27 a month. Which was very reasonable for the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, that included pretty much full service, too, right?</p>
<p>Taylor: I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: The government delivered coal and--</p>
<p>Taylor: Water.</p>
<p>Franklin: Changed the light bulbs, and—</p>
<p>Taylor: I don’t remember that part. I think my father probably would have done a lot of those little things, but—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Taylor: I think they probably would. But I remember the electricity and the water were included.</p>
<p>Franklin: Richland has such a unique history of being this government constructed and owned town for 15 years. And I’ve always found it interesting to hear people’s experiences, like yours, about how safe and free they felt in a town that was so entirely unique in terms of its—like you said, it was middle class. Everyone who was there had a certain income—</p>
<p>Taylor: Had a job!</p>
<p>Franklin: They had a job. But the government also owned and controlled who could live in that community. So it’s a community of safety, but it seems to be of not the traditional freedoms that we associate with any other kind of community or anything like that. It’s always stuck out to me, in looking at Richland.</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, perhaps an adult would see that. To me it was just feeling safe.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: I don’t know that I felt unsafe in Illinois. I was in the kind of family that were very caring, that always put our care first. I had very good parents.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’ve had—a couple other times when I’ve interviewed people that have grown up in Richland, one thing that they’ve mentioned is that at some point they were struck how there were no old people, really.</p>
<p>Taylor: Yes, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And I wonder if you could talk—was there a moment when you realized that everybody was either children or young adults for the most part?</p>
<p>Taylor: The only people who were there who were old were grandmothers and grandfathers who came to visit or lived with them. I mean, really. I was aware of that. Very much so.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so did anyone in your extended family ever come to Richland to visit? Or how did you keep in touch with them, with that barrier there?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, in those days you only talked on the phone if somebody died. You didn’t call the family back east, wherever it was. Because it cost money. And you just didn’t do it. There were letters that you would write and then send one to one member of the family, and they would send it to another, and they would send it to another. In that sort of round robin thing. I knew other families that did that. But my grandmother—my grandfather had died young. My grandmother had no money. In those days, a woman might be a housewife, a homemaker, a farmer’s wife, and end up with nothing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: No income, no savings. She had two daughters. So she would travel by train from Illinois to stay with my aunt for a while. And then to Washington to stay with my parents for a while.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Taylor: That was common in those days, that an older person would live with you. I had lots of people I knew whose grandmother lived with them, or grandfather lived with them. Or Uncle Joe who was just not quite right. Families took in family. That was not unusual.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, to have a multigenerational household.</p>
<p>Taylor: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like that.</p>
<p>Taylor: So I thought it was perfectly natural. And it was natural. I got to know my grandmother very well and learn things from her that I wouldn’t have if she hadn’t lived with us.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, sure. Well, and a lot of families, psychologists and a lot of research points to that being very beneficial, too.</p>
<p>Taylor: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it’s how most of the world lives.</p>
<p>Taylor: She had no money, absolutely none.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: My parents paid everything.</p>
<p>Franklin: Because she wouldn’t have had a job.</p>
<p>Taylor: I don’t think she ever had a job except butter and eggs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, she worked, certainly, right, and probably worked very hard.</p>
<p>Taylor: Oh, she worked on the farm, I’m sure. But it’s not the kind of work that was paid. And that would have been before social security. Because that started just about the time I was born.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And even then, women got much less than men did.</p>
<p>Taylor: And still do.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes. [LAUGHTER] What would you like future generations to know about growing up in Richland during World War II and the Cold War? And about the work that your father did?</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, I think the jobs our parents had—especially fathers, because most women were homemakers. I think that meant a lot to kids. I wouldn’t say that it was a caste system, but I was very aware that a girl named Betsey had a father who was a doctor, and they had a nicer house. I don’t know how the housing worked, but all those number houses, they had one of the better houses that was a single-family house, and on a hill, and just nicer. And I was a little jealous that my family wasn’t that wealthy that they could have a better house. So that’s very normal for kids, I think, to be aware of where their family is in the scheme of things.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Taylor: I came from the Midwest. I thought my parents were middle class, middle-educated. They both had degrees, but not graduate degrees. We lived in an average house. I was very middle. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know what else to say. But there were people who had a little more money. They were managers, they were doctors, they were professionals. And I think we were aware of that. And I think they were aware of that, the kind of cliques. High schools have those.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Taylor: You know, that’s all there is to it. There’s always going to be the athletes and the wealthier kids and the smarter kids and whatever. But I graduated from Columbia High School in 1953 as Barbara Brown. I loved high school. We had choruses, we had bands; we had various kinds of activities like that. And I was in the choir for four years and loved it. Just loved it. There was a teacher named Harley Stell, S-T-E-L-L. And it’s Harley. He was hired right out of college, about 1950, to start a music program, a vocal music program, and he did. Trios, chorus—I think it was called a chorus. And I sang with them and made some really good friends with them for four years. We sang at graduation. I’ll never forget that. Which was a wonderful experience. He added a lot to the school. Because music is an enrichment that students need.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes.</p>
<p>Taylor: So they started with very basic classes. Just first to eighth grade, and then they kept adding these things. Which is what all towns do, but it was starting, as I was in high school, starting to be a normal town. And people stayed because this is where their roots were now. I think that was quite a shock to the government, that we wanted to buy our houses. We wanted to stay there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because like you’d mentioned earlier, the community was from all over the country.</p>
<p>Taylor: That’s right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And no one knew anyone else when they came.</p>
<p>Taylor: But that’s a sociological fact.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>Taylor: I think, as I said, a sense of place. A sense that this is where we are, let’s stay here and do the best we can with what we’ve got.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right. Yeah, that’s really fascinating. Thank you. Well, I just want to thank you for interviewing with us. As someone who lives in Richland, I’d like to thank you for your father’s work—</p>
<p>Taylor: Thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: For bringing green and trees and things to Richland. Because it helps break up the heat and the sage brush.</p>
<p>Taylor: Well, it’s a pile of sand. That’s what it was to begin with.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Taylor: We had terrible windstorms. We had a fire one year way out in the desert. And I remember that everybody—cars came through the streets and said everybody move to the east side of town, down by the river.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Taylor: That was frightening.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I bet.</p>
<p>Taylor: But this fire was going faster than a man could run.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Taylor: It was coming from the big hills over there, the Rattlesnake hills. It came pretty close. I remember that very well; I must have been ten, something like that. I remember that the wind used to cut your legs. Girls wore dresses then; they didn’t wear pants like they do now. Walking home from school, the wind and the sand would cut your legs. Little tiny cuts. And you’d feel like to go hide behind a tree, but you’ve got to go home.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Wow.</p>
<p>Taylor: And that was really painful.</p>
<p>Franklin: I bet.</p>
<p>Taylor: They said there was something called a jackalope out in the desert. Nobody ever saw one.</p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Usually just taxidermists make those.</p>
<p>Taylor: With big ears. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, Barbara, thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure talking to you.</p>
<p>Taylor: I want this to be about my dad. So please emphasize that.</p>
Duration
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00:46:41
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317 kbps
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Albin Pherson
Bobby Jones
Harley Stell
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1943-1953
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Barbara Brown Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Barbara Brown Taylor conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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01-06-2017
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/27">Barbara Brown Taylor, Oral History Metadata</a>
1955
Bull
Cat
Cold War
Hanford
Houses
Kennewick
Park
River
School
Street
War
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2cc5a9df175464365af258afc976817e.jpg
19a8294780b3335126190a2f93e00cdd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
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Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
George and Marjorie Kraemer
Location
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Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
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<p>Victor Vargas: Okay.</p>
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer on December 9<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with George and Marjorie about their experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full names for us, starting with George?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: George R. Kraemer and Kraemer’s K-R-A-E-M-E-R.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Marjorie Kraemer, K-R-A-E-M-E-R.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And George is G-E-O-R-G-E?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: And Marjorie?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E.</p>
<p>Franklin: Great. Thank you. So tell me how and why you—did you both come to the Hanford Site together?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so tell me how and why you both came to the Hanford Site.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was at the University of Wisconsin--</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --in 1955. And I had a friend that was out here. And he told me about all of the deer hunting and the fishing, and all the good things. And he enticed me to come out.</p>
<p>Franklin: There wasn’t much of that in Wisconsin?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yeah. But going out West—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --that was new. And so I drove out in April of 1955. I already had a job out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And I stayed at the dorms—M-5, as I remember.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was your job?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was a lab assistant first.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: From April of ’55 to May of ’56. And then I transferred to drafting department.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: This was at General Electric. And I was in there for—oh, from ’56 to December of ’65.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And then I was asked to take another position. With—it was actually with Isochem. And it was—oh, engineering analyst, shop engineer, I went through all of those where I worked in a shop where they built vessels for Hanford—for PUREX, for REDOX, B Plant, T Plant—must be one more in there. And I did inspection of them. Fantastic job. Did that for—oh, quite a few years. Then in April of ’75, for another two years, I was a shop planner. I planned the activities of the shop—fabrication shop. And then in July of 1977, I was asked to be manager of this facility—of the shops. They had six separate shops, you know, like machine, tool and die, boilermaker, sheet metal, rotating equipment, welding lab, and all that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: A fun job, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I kind of liked that; that was down my alley. Then in April of ’81, I was asked to manage activities of the design drafting group in 200 Areas. And I had—supervising the unit managers, engineering designers, drafters and engineers. Then in April of ’84, I was manager of specialty fabrication design and fabrication engineering support group. Again, this had drafting, designers, checkers, a few engineers. Then Westinghouse came. And I was asked to be the manager of design services which had all the drafting for Westinghouse.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Did that for a number of years. And then--[LAUGHTER]—then my manager was a director, and I told him one day, you need an assistant. I said, I’m going to retire in due time, and I said, you need an assistant. And he looked at me kind of odd. But anyway, six months later he called me up, and he says, would you be my assistant? Had a good job. Nobody reporting to me. I did engineering quality counsel, the PRICE program, and Great Ideas, employee concerns, Native American outreach, the Signature Awards for Westinghouse. I wrote a few speeches, some for the president of Westinghouse.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was kind of a good job! Then I wrote a little note here, I retired after 36 years on July 31<sup>st</sup>, 1991. 36 years, 3 months and 19 days, or nearly 9,500 work days, over 106,000 hours at 8 hours a day and over 6 million minutes at Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, you really broke that down to the very last second.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But what I’m most proud about, except for that first transfer, all of my jobs, I was asked to take.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I thought that was—said something for me, anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: And Marjorie, how did you come to Hanford?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, he came out, so—[LAUGHTER] And so we were engaged, and I came out in May. And we got married out here.</p>
<p>Franklin: May of—would that be—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1955.</p>
<p>Franklin: ’55, okay. And you guys were married here in Richland, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, in Coeur d’Alene.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Coeur d’Alene, beautiful up there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t work that first summer. I came in May. And then I got a job at General Electric in September, in the finance department.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked in the 700 Area downtown. And then they reorganized—or disorganized, I used to call it—[LAUGHTER]—and split up. And then I had to go out to the 200 Areas for a few years. And then I quit at the end of 1958 and had our children.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: After they—our son was in kindergarten, I went to work for a doctor in town, a pathologist, for ten years. And then I went to work for Exxon Nuclear, Advanced Nuclear Fuels. Which was eventually bought out by Siemens, whom I retired with in 1991 also.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. And when did you start with Exxon Nuclear?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1975.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so you spent a significant amount of time—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And did you also do finance and accounting there?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, yes, in the accounting department.</p>
<p>Franklin: How—did you face any particular issues as being a woman in the workplace from the ‘50s—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, let’s see.</p>
<p>Franklin: Especially in that early era, you know, where women were first kind of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You couldn’t work overtime.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I remember when I worked out in the areas, in the 200 Areas, women couldn’t work overtime. For some reason. I don’t know if it was a union thing or a company policy or the federal government.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You couldn’t work alone, anyway.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. You couldn’t work overtime. They didn’t want you to work out there then.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you couldn’t work alone, either?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, in overtime, I remember when I was manager over there, if some of the ladies had to work, we had to have somebody around.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like a male supervisor or just a supervisor?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, somebody. Another worker even.</p>
<p>Franklin: All right. Interesting.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And it was different, living in Richland, because it was a government town.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And you had to—you probably interviewed people where you get on a housing list to get a house. And your name comes up, you go down and you look in this little glass deal where they had the list—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They posted of the new—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Posted them, and when you--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really? I hadn’t heard that. Could you describe it in a little more detail?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we put in for housing as soon as we got here. That was, well, in May. They had a posted board. Every week, they’d put a posting out there on the board and say who was eligible for a house. Finally, being the lowest peons out there, [LAUGHTER] we were eligible for a two-bedroom prefab.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. I live in one of those now.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Do you? Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So we got to look at two or three of them. Had to do it real promptly. And we choose one. 706 Abbott.</p>
<p>Franklin: 706 Abbott, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: In Richland.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: We lived there in town, yeah. It was different, because, well, the house came with appliances. Refrigerator, stove and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: What was it, $26?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: $27 a month or something.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: $27 a month or something for rent.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how was that comparative to—like, is that a pretty average rent, or was that a pretty good deal?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was cheaper because it was government.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was cheap. Of course, I didn’t make too much money back then, either. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Of course if something went wrong, you just called up housing and they came and fixed it. Or they gave you a new one. [LAUGHTER] You know, a new stove or whatever.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were they pretty prompt?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like, was the service—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they were.</p>
<p>Franklin: --pretty good?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They had a special group, that’s all they did was maintain the homes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And describe that atmosphere of living in a company town where everyone worked at the same place and, you know, it was landlords of the government. I wonder if you could kind of talk about that atmosphere.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, every Friday afternoon, <em>The GE News</em> would come out. You’ve probably heard of the GE News.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, we have copies of <em>The GE News</em> in our collection.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was the local one, and that was reading, and they had the want ads in there, which you always went because people were buying and selling a lot of things in that era. The—like she said, I remember the water. The water was—we had both irrigation water and house water. Two separate spigots there. And that was kind of interesting. That all come with our $26 or $27.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: After about, oh, I don’t know how many years it was, we got a—no, we bought that house. That’s right.</p>
<p>Franklin: In ’58, when they—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, ’58.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we bought that house. I think we paid $2,200 for it, as I remember.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They were appraised maybe $3,000 and then they gave you a discount.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And not too long after that, we moved into a two-bedroom—three-bedroom—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Three-bedroom, precut.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Three-bedroom precut.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That we bought on our own through the realtor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that one of the newer constructions?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was better construction.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: It was better construction?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The prefabs are made out of two-by-twos instead of two-by-fours for structure.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And plywood—quarter-inch plywood on the inside and outside, and some—insulation wasn’t too good in it, but it had a little bit.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, the insulation leaves a little bit to be desired.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It’s some sort of paper product, two inches thick.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Well, yeah, because those were made, originally, for the Tennessee Valley Authority.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to not last very long.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Short-term thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. And they’re still—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they’re still in use, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still around, yeah. Yeah, mine has been pretty extensively remodeled, but it’s still—still standing.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I do remember when we first came here that Richland had the highest birthrate and the lowest death rate of anyone in the nation.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: We were part of that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And it was likely due to the medical care, right?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The medical care, a lot of young people—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And everybody worked at Hanford and so they—you know, they were younger. There wasn’t any grandma and grandpas around. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, other people I’ve interviewed have mentioned that, that when they—especially—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: There wasn’t older people, you didn’t see them in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, there was no one who was retired or—</p>
<p>Marjorie: Right, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No! You’re right on.</p>
<p>Franklin: So it was mostly probably people your age.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then children of varying ages.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You talk about the other things went on. We had limited places where we could go out and eat.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Like we had the Mart building. That was a popular place.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, they had a grease—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It had a drug store.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It had a little diner in it or whatever.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: A little dining area, things like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Little greasy spoon type of thing?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where was that?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was on the corner of where the post office used to be, on that corner there, across the street. And of course it was kind of like a Quonset hut.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, it was like a big Quonset thing.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And of course it’s been torn down.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Remodeled, anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Quonset huts haven’t lasted somehow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: When I lived in the dorms, M-5, for a month? Two months? Before we got married. And I was out here with a friend and she wasn’t out here yet. And then trying to get our food every night, we had to go eat in restaurants every night. It was kind of interesting. Very limited.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Compared to what you have nowadays.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, or even perhaps where you had come from in—was that University of Wisconsin, is that Madison?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. I imagine a college town would have probably had a little bit more to—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --for, you know. And so what about the night life? Did you ever partake in night life in Richland, or was there much of night life?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No. We just—we played, you know, cards and things with friends.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, a lot of cards. We had a couple friends out here already. And then we made new friends pretty rapidly. As I said, we had a lot of cards.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Played cards.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Camping. Did a lot of camping. I had a ’49 Ford—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --at that instance and timeframe. And the first summer we were here we were about camping every weekend.</p>
<p>Franklin: And where would you go, often?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, the Blue Mountains, north above Spokane—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Mount Rainier.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mount Rainier, a lot. That’s one of my favorite places.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: White Pass.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it’s really pretty up there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So that took a lot of our time in the summer.</p>
<p>Franklin: I bet.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Winter times were—well, we didn’t go camping. But, again, that’s mostly—we had a lot of cards and games that we played with our young friends.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And you hunted a lot.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, I did a lot of deer hunting and a lot of fishing.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah. Well, you said that’s what brought you out here.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: I’m wondering if each of you, starting with Marjorie first this time, could describe a typical work day when you worked out on Site.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, let’s see. When I worked out in the Area it was a little different than in town, because I had to ride the bus. And of course, I think I got off about 6:00, and of course it was dark. And walked a couple blocks to the bus, and you paid a nickel for each way to go out to the Area, which was about 27 miles. And when you got there in the wintertime, it was dark. And you went in, and I worked in the B Plant, it was. And it was all cement, no windows. So you went in and it was dark. When you came out to go home, it was dark. So you never saw the sunshine until the weekend.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] In the summer, it was awful because not all the buses were air conditioned.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: None of them were. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh. Well, we had a few, I think, that were.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Not then.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, gosh. You were just soaked, you know, because it was so hot. 100 degrees, riding in this bus.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they allowed smoking on the buses. That was not good for us that didn’t smoke.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh you guys—both of you didn’t smoke?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Seems to, probably in the ‘50s, have been more of a rarity than a—or at least, seems like a lot more people smoked then.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: True.</p>
<p>Franklin: Especially, I can imagine, in the wintertime with closed windows, that would be pretty oppressive. So George, what about you? Describe a typical—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I worked at 2-East for the first nine months or so. And that was like her. Our 222-S lab, no windows in there. Get up early, ride the bus, go to the—where Stores is now, at the big bus lot there. So all of the buses would go into there, and you would get off your bus and take the appropriate 200 Area bus or whatever, 100 Area bus. And likewise, when you came home, you’d come back to that bus lot, get off the buses, and get to your route.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that time on the bus included in your work day?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was my time.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was included in your time. It was not included in your time?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, it was not included in--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, it was not included.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Franklin: So that was just considered part of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Was that a pretty fast transition though, from catching the bus by your home to go to the lot to then get on the other bus—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was fast.</p>
<p>Franklin: It was pretty efficient?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And the buses were pretty much on time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: For some reason, I mostly had express buses where we didn’t stop at the bus lot.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, later on, yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. Interesting. And so then you said you’d get on the appropriate bus to the Area, and then—take me forward from there.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Okay. We get on the bus there and I went into the lab, and that was an all-enclosed building again, no windows. And I did, oh, nuclear—not nuclear but radioactive waste disposal and things like that. We’d get a bus from 300 Area about once a week or twice a week and they would—not a bus, a tanker truck. Sorry about that. A tanker truck would come in and I unloaded that into some of our special waste tanks out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were these the tanks in the Tank Farms, or are these different tanks?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, that wasn’t the Tank Farm; that was the special area just for the 300 Area waste.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what would you do with the waste?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, the tanker truck would back up to a big nozzle, and I’d hook up the nozzles and drain the tanks. Let it drain for an hour or whatever it was, and then go back out and unhook the thing and wave the driver on.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what would be done with the waste at that facility?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: It was just stored.</p>
<p>Franklin: Just stored. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think we—outside of doing some sampling, which I didn’t do, that was it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Would that eventually go into the ground then?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And that’s when it would eventually go into the single-shell or double-shell tanks.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Sooner or later.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sooner or later, find its way there. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah. And then I transferred into drafting and that was downtown in the 760 Building.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Of course that way I could ride to work or walk to work.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that’s like pen-and-table drafting, right? Like on a drafting board.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Drafting board, yes. That was kind of nice, because I could ride bicycle, walk or take the car, whatever. And I’d get home at least when it was daylight.</p>
<p>Franklin: That seems like kind of an interesting job shift from handling waste to more of a technical thing like drafting.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, yeah, well, what started that, my boss wanted some sketches of flow diagrams and stuff like that. I said, I can do them. I did them, and he was impressed with them, and he says, you ought to be in drafting. And he led the way for me.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. What did you go to school for?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Engineering.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, just engineering in general?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Mm-hm.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and Marjorie, did you attend college?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. How did you gain the training for accounting and bookkeeping? Was it just all on the job?</p>
<p>Marjorie: Yeah, on-the-job training. And you could advance back then. Nowadays if you didn’t have a college degree, well, I don’t think you would go as far.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, yeah. Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Another thing—I also took a lot of classes. GE at this time, they had engineering folks which would give us classes in various subjects.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that over here in the East Building? Or was it different?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I can’t remember exactly where it was. Sometimes—I think it was the Federal Building, I think it was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Just various things that would help me in my work and help me in my promotions, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Interesting. That’s kind of a—seems like so much was provided to workers in terms of training and housing, and I think it seems foreign to a lot of workers today to think of a company being that kind of paternal—caring, paternalistic almost. It’s kind of the vibe I get off that era of Hanford’s history.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah. While I was downtown in drafting there, we worked on—I was in the piping squad. We worked on facilities in the 100 Areas, 200 Areas, not 300 Areas then. So I got to know pretty much all the areas. And I went out to visit them on lots of times where you have to go out and see what is really there. You go look at old drawings and it may not be the same.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because you’re not looking at the as-builts.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: You’re looking at the older—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right, and so consequently, we made a fair number of trips out to the various sites regardless of where they were.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so you got, then, to see the whole site pretty well.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think I did, yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Marjorie, what was—well I’m going to ask this question of both of you, but we’ll start with Marjorie. What was the most challenging and/or rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford?</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, [LAUGHTER] I’m not sure how to answer that. It was a good place to work. And it, you know, paid well. And I guess that’s, you know, the main thing. I wasn’t out for some big career or anything like that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure. And, George, what about you? What were some of the more challenging or rewarding aspects of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, you know, we went through a lot of companies: GE, Westinghouse, Atlantic Richfield, Isochem—maybe another one in there. But the fact is, I never lost a day of work throughout 36, almost 37 years. I was never laid off. But I think the most rewarding was being recognized for my work. Being asked to take all these promotions. I think that was rewarding, to me. Must be doing something right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah. Great. Did the nature of the work at Hanford ever unsettle either of you? The, you know, just the--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kramer: Oh, you mean—</p>
<p>Franklin: The amount of chemical or nuclear waste or the possibility of—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Radiation.</p>
<p>Franklin: --Soviet attack or anything like that. Did that ever—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, you know, when we first moved here, the Army was still here.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Camp Hanford.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: At Camp Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And they had Nike missile sites up on—not Badger, but—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: White Bluffs, out that way, didn’t they, across the river?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, White Bluffs, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: Rattlesnake?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, Rattlesnake! And you wondered about that. Planes would fly over every now and then. But other than that, as far as being attacked, no. And radiation-wise, I’ve learned to respect it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I never got involved in any serious things even though I went into some bad places, probably. But I never had—in the various canyons and stuff of the buildings. But never had any problems.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And same for you, Marjorie?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and of course I wasn’t out there all that long. But I remember when we used to travel quite a bit. When we would travel and people would, oh, where do you work? And I would never say Exxon Nuclear; I would say Exxon. [LAUGHTER] Because they thought we glow in the dark, probably. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, that seems to be—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was very common, regardless of where you went. Like, say, we travel a lot and you stand up and introduce yourself. You didn’t want to say a great deal, because they figured you—they didn’t want to be around you. You glow.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] Some people.</p>
<p>Franklin: Why do you think that endures? Because today, even today, that’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Ignorance. Ignorance of radiation, like in the paper here and now, they said, we’re the other Chernobyl. No! There’s not that possibility.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Because our problem is mostly chemical.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s not so much nuclear. I mean, there’s radioactivity—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, there’s a lot of radioactivity; there’s no question.</p>
<p>Franklin: --but it’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But it’s not going to explode. It’s not that type.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, we won’t have a meltdown. At least we can say that much.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: What are some of your memories of any major events in Tri-Cities history? I’m thinking of like plants shutting down or starting up—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: President Kennedy—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: --came out here. I can’t remember the year now.</p>
<p>Franklin: September 14<sup>th</sup>, 1963.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: 1963, yeah, ’63.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or 17<sup>th</sup>.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Anyway, I was there. We all bussed out to—was that 100-N?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: He was out in 100-N, wasn’t he?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: 100-N, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Wasn’t it?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: 100-N, I think, wasn’t it?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: He came to dedicate part of the steam generating—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You know, incidentally, I did the first working drawings, the scope drawings, of the piping of the major process piping of 100-N.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That was a fantastic job. I know one time I did my drawings, got them and they decided, hey, that’s classified, after the fact. I had to go through, collect all of my drawings and everything and then I had to secure my drafting boards and stuff like that.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But we did it.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I can remember in the 703 Building when I worked downtown in 19—I think it was ‘55 or ’56—Ronald Reagan came. Because we had the General Electric Theater.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s right!</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And he came through our building and was talking to everybody.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you get to meet him?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, uh-huh.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And did you also? Did he go to the Site?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I don’t—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I think you were out in the Area.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I was out in the Area then. I don’t think I—I knew he was here, obviously. He was on—he toured some buildings, but I didn’t get to see him.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s pretty—that’s interesting. I’d heard he’d come, but I hadn’t met anybody who actually really—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, he came through our 703 Building—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So I imagine that was—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Where finance was.</p>
<p>Franklin: --quite an interesting thing to have a Hollywood celebrity coming to Hanford. And so did you both go to see President Kennedy when he came to dedicate the N Reactor?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I didn’t get to. Did you?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You were not working at Hanford then, I don’t think.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, no.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But anyway, the whole company [LAUGHTER] all the people were there that could be excused. They just bussed everybody out there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And were you one of those people?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes, I was one of them people.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you kind of describe that scene?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, he was on the podium which was quite a ways away from me there. And he gave quite a talk, you know. Of course the excitement of hearing your President—or seeing your President was kind of interesting. And I really don’t know what he said anymore.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But I thought that was a major highlight. Another one, probably, is when General Electric decided they were going to leave.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And that was in mid-‘60s, right?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: ’65, probably.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that sounds right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: ’66, maybe.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I think so.</p>
<p>Franklin: So describe that. How was the mood around Hanford and around Richland? Because General Electric had been so prominent.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it affected George quite a bit.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, it affected my pension.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Quite a bit. You know, I worked for over 36 years, and for those ten years that I worked under GE, that’s not included in my final pay—pension.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: So I get—I don’t know. Very little a month for those ten years. It’s in a separate pension fund.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah. Why is that? That seems a little—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Because you were under—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The government works in strange and mysterious ways. And there were lawsuits and stuff like that, trying to get them to include our years in the master plan.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It was—one of the main reasons was you weren’t 35 yet.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s another thing, yeah, I wasn’t 35 yet. That was a condition to get vested.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: That was the cutoff to get that--</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: --included in your seniority.</p>
<p>Franklin: So you could start to invest, right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, vested. Anyway.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And of course the big thing when Westinghouse came over to retake all of the—together—you know, GE split up and then we had various split-up companies, and then all of the sudden we’re back together again.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, it seems like—one other person I interviewed a little bit ago remarked at how the contracting agency, the government doesn’t always seem to know—like, it tries one big contractor, and then it tries to split it up a bunch, and then they go back to one big contractor, and then they want to split it up a bunch. So I’m wondering if you—either you or both of you—can talk about that shifting of contractors and how that impacted your work and your life.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, in my case, same job. [LAUGHTER] Same boss, same everything. There wasn’t much new. Different name on the paycheck, obviously.</p>
<p>Franklin: But your unit stayed pretty intact throughout the change?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. There were no major reorganizations at first because of the takeovers of the different companies.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And, Marjorie, what about you—so you worked initially those first few years, and then later on you worked for Exxon Nuclear, which—was Exxon Nuclear, were they a contractor or a subcontractor, or were they just aligned with—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They were a private company.</p>
<p>Franklin: A private company, okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, they just made nuclear pellets.</p>
<p>Franklin: So they were like a service company for Hanford?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, no, they made nuclear fuels for reactors all over the world.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So they weren’t a Hanford company.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were private.</p>
<p>Franklin: So they were just in the same industry—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, and so—and it was Exxon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It was Jersey—called Jersey Nuclear when I first started out.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And then it was Exxon. And then they changed to Advanced Nuclear Fuels under Exxon.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And then Siemens bought them in 1989, I believe.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I worked for them for a couple years. Nothing really changed. And then I retired with Siemens Corporation.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Which was a really pretty good deal, because they have really good benefits. German companies do.</p>
<p>Franklin: They are very well-known for that, yeah.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, that sounds like a pretty decent deal.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I think they worked half-time, because when we wanted to call them up in Germany and talk to them about something, it seems like they were either on vacation or they had a holiday. [LAUGHTER] They were never there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Any memories of the, like, social scene or local politics, or just any—you know, either before the great selling, you know, the privatization or afterwards in Tri-Cities? Or actually, let me be more specific. I’m wondering if either of you can tell me about some of the protest activity that took place, or if you remember that, in the beginning in the late ‘60s and end of the ‘70s. Both kind of the protests that were pro-Hanford and anti-Hanford.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, we never did get involved in any of them. I didn’t.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I didn’t, either. There were no major protests that I really remember. I know one time, there was a few of them along the road when we went out before you get to 300 Area. They couldn’t get out very far then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But I didn’t really take too much interest in them. I figured they weren’t hurting anything.</p>
<p>Franklin: So the Tri-Cities up until the late ‘60s was pretty segregated in terms of where African Americans could live. Even though they could work at Hanford, they couldn’t always live in Richland for a while. And I’m wondering if you guys could—did you observe that kind of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: --that Civil Rights action and kind of some of that segregation before the Civil Rights?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I remember that there were a few blacks—I don’t know what you—blacks going to the high school and stuff when my daughter was going. Well, the Mitchells were here, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, CJ Mitchell.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: CJ Mitchell.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And Cameron Mitchell was in my daughter’s—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Daughter went to school with him.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And she was good friends with him, you know.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and he was one of the first—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, right, and—</p>
<p>Franklin: --people to get someone to sell him a house in Richland. He had a lot of struggle getting that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I don’t know what they did with the housing—government housing—if they gave it to—I guess maybe they didn’t give it to black people.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They had no choice then.</p>
<p>Franklin: I believe they had to live in east Pasco until the ‘60s.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes. I don’t think they could live in Kennewick, either.</p>
<p>Franklin: No, Kennewick--</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Kennewick was very bad.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, they had the sundown. The sundown laws.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yes, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. When we first moved here, I’d become good friends with an African. And we used to play cards with him, and go places with him. I thought we were well-accepted.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But he lived in Pasco, didn’t he?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes. He did not live in Richland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But—I said it was very plain to us, that—I say, Kennewick was very bad. And they didn’t even want to go to Kennewick, the colored folks.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they were supposed to get out of town before, like you say, sundown.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Which is not very nice.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But, you know, it’s not nice to say, but they knew their place.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, well, yeah, they knew where they could go and couldn’t—where they were welcome and where they were not. Yeah, that squares pretty well with the historical record. Thank you for that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: When our daughter—after she graduated from high school, she went to WSU. And then she graduated from there. She got a nursing degree, and she went to Seattle and worked. And one of her comments once when she called me up, and she says, Mom, we really led a sheltered life in Richland, you know? [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s interesting. I wonder if you could unpack that a little bit more. What would have been so sheltered about Richland for her?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I think, you know, she went to Seattle and got a job. And her first job was in the King County jail. She was a nurse in the clinic. And she saw all these prisoners and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Not the best clientele.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And that was one of her comments after she called me up—called me up and said, you know, we really led a sheltered life, after seeing all these homeless people and skid row, and—you know. It’s just different.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, because I imagine Richland would have been a pretty solid middle class, mostly white—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Still is majority, but mostly white, middle class. Pretty safe. If you didn’t work at Hanford, you didn’t live in Richland until 1958. And I imagine after that, it was pretty slow to change where most people who lived here worked at Hanford for—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think the police had a good—made their presence known, in a good way.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And I think that was the difference between Seattle living and outskirts of Seattle or wherever she lived.</p>
<p>Franklin: Well, I imagine it would be in general an easier community to police where you knew everyone worked in the same place.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right, right.</p>
<p>Franklin: Everyone knew—or a lot of people knew everyone else, and you know it was—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: But crime was very low.</p>
<p>Franklin: Sure, sure.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: First of all, you know the folks have clearances, things like that, that’s going to get a better grade of people. Because they went through all the rigmarole you have to go through.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: I saved one of those questionnaires, those Q clearance deals. I still have it. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I left—when I filled mine out, I left two weeks of my life off of this—[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, no.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Of course it came back and they wanted to know where I was. [LAUGHTER] I was in transit to out here or something.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And so they wanted to know—</p>
<p>Franklin: Those forms went back, what, like ten years or something like that?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, it was—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Renewed or unless there was a need to upgrade.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: When I first filled it out, of course I was only like 20 years old. So I didn’t have that much to have to put on it. But they went back, and people told us, you know, we were from a small town and of course they told us, these people—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They were asking about you and all this—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, calling around.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They were wanting to know what was going on.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Yeah, I know, that’s—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Wanting to know where you went to school and where you worked back there. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I first got an L clearance when I came here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Is that a lower or higher—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s a lower grade. And then as soon as I transferred into drafting, I had to get a new clearance, a Q clearance, again. Which I had the rest of my time here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, interesting. Were they still any—I’m always a little fuzzy on my dates with this—were there any Atomic Frontier Days parades when you were here?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Or were those over by the time that—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, they were here, and in fact, Sharon Tate—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, Sharon Tate was in that.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: One of the first few years we were here, she was the Miss Tri-Cities.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah. Her dad was at Hanford, you know, Camp Hanford. He was an Army--</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, that’s right, because I’ve always heard she was an Army—kind of an Army brat. Oh, really? That’s really interesting. I’ve oftentimes asked—I used to ask people about that question and it would miss a lot, so I kind of stopped asking about Sharon Tate. But that’s interesting that you remember seeing her?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Oh, sure.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, I remember they had parades down the main—one of the streets. I don’t remember which ones now.</p>
<p>Franklin: And you guys went to the Atomic Frontier Days and all of that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Why, certainly! Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, those were very colorful and kind of interesting events. Kind of wish I could have seen one of those in the flesh. Great. And so—gosh, you guys have already run down so many of my questions without even me needing to ask them.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: But I still have a couple. Could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy impacted your jobs, respectively? I’ll start with Marjorie.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, you just knew that you weren’t supposed to—you know, I was in finance. And so I saw all these numbers and all this stuff. And you just knew you weren’t supposed to talk about things like that. But other than that, you know, it didn’t really affect me all that much.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I know, going on vacation or something like that, or going back to Wisconsin. We’d go quite a bit. And, what do you do out there? And you know, in general terms you tell them. But I was trying to remember some specifics. I’m sure there were some to do with security.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: It must have been very hard to work here in the ‘40s. [LAGUHTER] You didn’t know what you were doing, you know, you were building all this stuff.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, we knew what we were doing, you know. What we were making and all this thing.</p>
<p>Franklin: You could talk about it to your coworker.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right.</p>
<p>Franklin: And not be afraid of being evicted from your home and losing your job.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I remember looking at an old paper. It said, big headlines: it’s bombs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes. Yes, that’s the <em>Richland Villager</em> from right after the Nagasaki bombing, yeah. Interesting. Do you remember, were there like searches or did they search people on the buses?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well--</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Going home. [LAUGHTER] A lot of times you just had to open your lunch pail up, and make sure there was nothing in it.</p>
<p>Franklin: You didn’t have any atoms in your pocket or anything?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: They didn’t always look.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: They didn’t always look, but every now and then they’d have a search day.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Kind of keep you on your toes.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And of course all of the cars at 300 Area where the major barricade was. You had to stop, open your trunks if you drove a car. And then if you went into the various—200 Areas, 100 Areas, you had to stop again or you parked your car in the parking lot outside and walked in. And if you went into the various buildings, like PUREX or like in the lab where I was there, you had a number and a radiation badge, and your name and a number you were assigned. When I went to 222-S, it was number ten. I must have got some big wheels for a number or something like that. I was ten. They would look you up to make sure in their file—they’d look at, make sure the picture matched you.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, and that would be every time you’d come in?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Every time you went in the building there.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. That’s very tight security.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: When you—you said you had to go around the site a lot—how would you get around once you got—so you took the bus in, but how would you get from one area to the other?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Engineering department had cars—government cars.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And so then you’d just—could only travel in—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And we just traveled in government cars out to the various facilities.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. When did the bus service stop?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Good question. Let’s see.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Late ‘60s?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Hmm. Probably in that era.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Because when we built the new house, and it was in 1966, and you still rode the bus then.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: That’s right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: So I think it was in the late ‘60s.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I would say in the late ‘60s, it was.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Or early ‘70s.</p>
<p>Franklin: And so then—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And there was much frustration.</p>
<p>Franklin: To much frustration?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: On a lot of people’s part. Including mine.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really? Why was that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I loved that bus ride. I mean, I loved going out there for—it was changed to, I don’t know, 50 cents or something. It was higher price, anyway. The nickel was just to pay insurance and liabilities. But—so I had to drive my car out or get into a carpool, or whatever.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: But then for a while, they stopped the service in town picking everybody up, and then you could go to the bus lot and catch a bus. For a while, for a few years.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah, they stopped the rounds through town.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. That’s such an interesting structure of life, to have everybody in one town that all catches the bus, and—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: [LAUGHTER] And work at the same—</p>
<p>Franklin: You know when the buses are coming and everyone kind of depends on it, and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yes.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s just such an interesting—seems almost kind of foreign to a lot of people today. And so you said that was kind of a chagrin that the bus—is that because you liked just not having to drive, or not—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I liked not having to drive. I knew that I had to be outside there at 6:00 or whatever it was every morning. And it was there. It was—</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: You could read, you could do work—you could do all sorts of things.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: When I was manager out there for a while, I could do a lot of work on the bus.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I had my own philosophy. I did not like to take any work home. I had my briefcase and I would do a lot of stuff on the bus. That was 45 minutes of uninterrupted time, and I could get a lot of my work done.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, I bet. Yeah. Interesting. What would you either—both of you, sorry—what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? And I’ll start with you, George.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, I think you’re doing part of it. [LAUGHTER] Let them know what’s going on. And you know, the kids never really knew what—really, what we were doing, I don’t think, in detail. Yeah, they knew in general. As I look back at the government—not too impressed.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really? Why is that?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: The stuff that goes on out there now—when we were—I was working, I felt I was doing a job. Things were going out—in the shops, things were going out the door. We were making things. Things were happening. I was proud of our work. Now I begin to wonder how long—you know, the Tank Farms have been undergoing their thing for years, and it’s going to be another amount of years before they do anything. It’s—not enough things are happening.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Interesting. Marjorie, what about you? What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, it was just such a different sort of life, you know. You were kind of protected, I guess. You know, everybody, like, knew everybody, and you all worked at the same place, and your kids went to the schools in town. You went to the doctors that are in town. It was just a different sort of a—</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, like your daughter had said maybe a little protected, sheltered.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Sheltered life, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: It’s so interesting to me because—George, the thing you said about feeling like you’d done something—I’ve heard that from other interviewees who had worked in that transition period, who had worked when Hanford was producing and felt a real sense of accomplishment. And then kind of felt like it was mired down during cleanup and that the mission’s unclear, the work doesn’t progress. And Marjorie, it’s always been amazing to me to hear that, that it does seem like a really safe and peaceful place, but when you look at it kind of on—there’s a flipside to that, though. It’s amazing that there’s this safe, peaceful place next to nine nuclear reactors.</p>
<p>[LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie: And you know—</p>
<p>Franklin: And you know, like a major target in the Cold War.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Well, I guess that’s true. I don’t know. You just--</p>
<p>Franklin: But I think those two can exist side-by-side. That it could be, you know, a place of production but also of danger and a place of safety but also—you know, and of security. I just—it’s—there’s a lot of contradictions in Hanford that I think are really interesting that get brought out in these interviews. So thank you. Is there anything that I haven’t asked either of you about that you would like to talk about?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No. I’m sure I’ll think of some when I get home.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s very common. That happens all the time. I get emails a lot from people like--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --I wish I had said this.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Oh, let’s see. I think when I was a shop engineer out there in the shops, best years of my life out there. Again, I felt proud that we were doing something, things were going out the door. I was responsible for a lot of critical measurements and things of—the jumpers, the tanks, and everything that we did in the shop. And then troubleshooting. There was some failures out there and I would go out to troubleshoot to see how we could fix things. Contaminated vessels and things like that. But those were good years. Best years I had out there. Management was good, but there are a lot more responsibilities. But those worked out, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Great.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And I think the schools were—you know—were good.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: The kids had a good education, had good teachers.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, I’ve heard that a lot that people—there were a lot of well-educated people that worked at Hanford and at first Battelle—Hanford Labs, and then Battelle and Pacific Northwest National Labs. So that there was a high focus on education and—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Another thing is, probably more so than now, but the school sports. Didn’t have too much else to do, so there was a lot of basketball games and football games and soccer games and all that sort of things that people went to. And they really supported the high school sports.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. You think that’s more then than now.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: I think more then than now. There was less to do.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, it was a little more of an isolated community.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Right. And of course this year they went to the—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Well, this year’s different. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: --the tournaments. But when our daughter and son were in high school, they were always going to tournaments. And I always had to take kids and chaperone, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Ah, it was our pleasure.</p>
<p>Franklin: I see that you’ve brought some things. Would we be able to scan those and keep them with part of your—with your interview?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: You can have those. That’s my work history.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, great, we’ll scan this and put this with your interview, too.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: And she’s got some pictures there, too.</p>
<p>Franklin: Are these family pictures, or--?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: No, these are pictures of—</p>
<p>George Kraemer: No, they’re--</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Out at Hanford. This is one when I worked out at the Area. This was a million man hours without an accident, you know?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow, okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: And they had a fashion show. And this is me right here in radiation outfit, you know, that we modeled the—we modeled the outfits they wore in the contaminated labs and all that.</p>
<p>Franklin: And which one are you? Are you the one in the white cowl?</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah, I’m the one right—with the—</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: All covered up.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, kind of a little hard to tell. That’s great. That’s a great picture. Ah, yup, General Electric Photo Division.</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, would we be able to scan these and put them with your interview?</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: That would be wonderful. Okay. Great. Well, thank you again, thank you both so much. ITts been a really excellent interview.</p>
<p>George Kraemer: Good!</p>
<p>Marjorie Kraemer: Thank you.</p>
<p>Franklin: You did good.</p>
<p><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/cnCDk351BVY">View interview on Youtube.</a></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:57:59
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317 kbps
Hanford Sites
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100 Area
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
B Plant
N Reactor
T Plant
Tank Farm
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
~1955-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
~1955-1991
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Kennedy
Sharon Tate
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with George and Marjorie Kraemer conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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12-09-2016
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-15-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/25">George and Marjorie Kraemer, Oral History Metadata</a>
100 Area
1955
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
Award
Awards
B Plant
Battelle
Cold War
General Electric
Hanford
Kennedy
Kennewick
Mountain
Mountains
N Reactor
PUREX
Quonset hut
Quonset huts
Stores
T Plant
Tank Farm
Tank Farms
Theater
War
Westinghouse
-
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dd6665ad63d7fe5c5acc2cb6fa5d2b46
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8e26990ed6f57cf106722b5faea48c57.mp4
407f005756ef54638c41f44cafc967f7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leonard Gustafson
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Gustafson_Leonard</strong></p>
<p>Robert Bauman: We're ready to go. So if we could start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us.</p>
<p>Leonard Gustafson: Okay. You ready?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yep.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Okay. I'm Leonard Gustafson. Last name is spelled G-U-S-T-A-F-S-O-N.</p>
<p>Bauman: All right. And my name's Robert Bauman. And today's date is October 16<sup>th</sup>, as we clarified, 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you tell us when you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Okay.</p>
<p>Bauman: Why you came here.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, we do that almost any direction. I knew about the place so for a couple reasons, but the main reason was that some of my fellow chemical engineers from Montana State University had come over a year or two earlier. And so when I finished up at Bozeman and started looking for a job, it seemed like I might take at least a temporary assignment at this wartime installation until I found a real job. So I arrived on October 15<sup>th</sup> of 1950. It's been a little while ago isn't it? 63 years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Almost your anniversary, yeah.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Went through, I guess, the normal procedures. Found out about what was going on in the plant, and security, and a little bit about how to deal with radioactive materials. And then I was assigned to my first tasks. I was what they called a Supervisor-in-Training, and went into the operations part of the chemical processing department. My first building that I went to was T Plant. The T Plant, the bismuth phosphate separation plant. And about all I did there was so learn how to detect contamination and clean it up. I always tell the story that the operators really loved having these young supervisors-in-training come in, because they could hand them a bucket of acetone, or something like that, and bundle of rags, and a cutie pie—which was our instrument for detecting radiation—and send us out to scrub the deck. In the separation plants, and this was common after the crane operator removes the blocks from the cells, he always leaves a little bit of contamination on the deck. So that's a rather regular job. So I learned how to handle the cutie pie. And how to go through the—how to dress. Put us in our white coveralls and learn how to go through what we called at that time, the SWP, Special Work Permit. It's been called many different things. Anyhow, that started me out. After I believe it was about two months in T Plant, I was assigned to the startup of the REDOX operation. Now the REDOX was the first of the solvent extraction plants. So it was essentially near completion there at the end of 1950, the beginning of 1951. So we went through the final inspection processes and started up. And then I was assigned to one of the four operating shifts that operated that building. This was extremely interesting. It was like a great big pilot plant laboratory, and we chemical engineers essentially had the responsibility for operating. We moved into that plant without having much time for a lot of training and procedural preparation. So in order to at least establish some kind of order beyond simple procedures. The operation was strictly conducted by the engineers, by the supervisors. Each shift had eight shift supervisors and two senior supervisors. And initially all the operation was conducted by the supervisors. The operators were just learning at that stage. After, oh, year or so, the operators were ready to run the plant. We didn't need so many supervisors. So in late 1953, I went out on another rather interesting assignment. Engineering at that time was responsible for inspection. We didn't have anything like quality assurance organizations. So engineering inspectors took care of the required inspection of any materials or equipment that we were ordering from Hanford. I was assigned mostly out in the Ohio, Pennsylvania, Kentucky area, New York. I spent a little over a year. It was a very active thing. Frequently I'd turn in an expense account for seven different locations in a week. So is this about--</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, this is great.</p>
<p>Gustafson: --where you want to go? I can cut things pretty short if you'd like.</p>
<p>Bauman: This is great. Keep going.</p>
<p>Gustafson: So anyhow, we got into some fabulous big plants and all this sort of thing. Learned a little more about how to build things. Because some of the time we were actually not only assigned for the final inspections, but we went right through all the manufacturing stages. I returned then to Richland in the beginning of 1955. By that time, the PUREX plant was nearing completion. That was the second of the big solvent extraction plants. So I was assigned for the startup and so on of that plant. My final assignment there was basically I was the operating supervisor for C shift. C shift was one of the four shifts that was responsible for operating the plant. By that time, the operators were pretty well trained, so I had about 18 or 19 operators and two chief operators. And there was one technical man also assigned to the shift. I'd have to look upon that assignment as probably the most responsible job I ever had, starting up and running that plant. The operating group was basically responsible for the main process. The shift crews have the responsibility to run it, unless there were some real serious problem or question, we have to find the answers and go ahead and do it. There were many experiences there, but I was--after a couple years, well, I'd been married in the process there at the end of ‘55. My wife was a teacher and it was getting to the point where shift work was not the most desirable. We'd touch base occasionally. So I moved into one of the engineering groups again in the separations department, process design and development. [UNKNOWN], just one who is still around, managed that group. A good friend. And so I spent a couple years in that work. We were basically responsible for new activities or problem activities that the engineering group was supposed to take care of to support the operations. So after two or three years there, I thought it was about time to see some more of the plant, so I moved on down to the 300 Area, and worked with the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. So I spent a couple three years there. So that had to be about 1960, 1961, somewhere in there. I didn't get the exact dates. So I went through the startup and operation of the Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor. Now this was not associated with plutonium production. This was really in support of the oncoming nuclear industry for power production, for electrical production. And the reason for the PRTR was to demonstrate that plutonium could be used as well as uranium-235 as the fissile fuel for commercial reactors. It was a successful project. And at that time, projects were completed on time and usually under budget. So it was a success as far as I'm concerned. After that plant is operating and they didn't have much need for me around anymore, I moved on out to the 100 Areas. And good friend of mine, Gene Astley, asked me one day what I was doing. I said, well, I guess I'm about ready to do something else. And so he said, well, come on out work for me for a while. So I went out to the 100 Areas, must've been ‘64 or ‘65, and worked largely with so water plant type problems and questions that were going on. Now we're getting into the area where we're getting about ready to--the Cold War was sort of winding up. So production wasn't the number one priority anymore. There were a lot of questions about what was the future of Hanford and so on at that time. So after working a couple three years out there, I guess not quite, I moved on down to the fuels department and worked with Charlie Mathis, the manager of fuels production at that time—this must've been about ‘65. And my main activity there was mostly planning, what are we going to do with the fuels manufacturing plants in the future? So very, very interesting and we worked along with—Roy Nielsen had a group that was overall Hanford planning at that time. So after a couple years there in the fuels department, I actually moved into Roy's group. And so this had to be ‘67, maybe ‘66, I'm not real sure. With that assignment, one of the things that was done at that time the AEC, countrywide, was studying and planning for what to do with the nuclear facilities and how they were going to support commercial electrical power generation. So they had a group down at Oak Ridge that was called the AEC Combined Operational Planning Group. And Hanford, as well as most of the sites, were responsible for providing two or three representatives. So I spent about a year and a half down there. That was in basically ‘68. Of course, that was quite fascinating, because we were looking at the overall AEC complex and what was the future for nuclear power, essentially. One of the things I got involved with were the nuclear power forecasts. I spend a lot of time at headquarters. Frank Baranowski was the head of the production division, essentially responsible for Hanford, Savannah River, Oak Ridge—all of the main production facilities. I spent some time with him every now and then. Very fine fellow. And so after year and half or so there, I felt it was about time to get back home. And we had actually moved the family there, so we moved completely and sold our house and rented in Oak Ridge. So we came back to Richland at I guess the end of ‘69. And one of the big activities at that time was the FFTF. So I again I went with the FFTF project. So I changed, I had been with Douglas United Nuclear, so at that time I went to Battelle who was responsible for the early FFTF bid. My good friends Astley and Condoda, who were the manager an engineering manager, they did not stay with the project. We Indians sort of stayed with it. That was when the AEC—the Milt Shaw years—decided that Battelle was not adequately competent to take on a project like that. They needed somebody with more, I guess, manufacturing and big project experience. So Westinghouse had been assigned to take over that responsibility by the AEC. So I then became a Westinghouse employee. Spent most of the next, I guess, ten years with the FFTF project until it was a complete and operating. By that time we're getting up to 1980 range. So those were interesting times. We had a lot particularly early conflict. The assigning of Westinghouse to take overlooked project didn't really satisfy what Milt Shaw was after. We had a rather severe conflict. Milt Shaw was finally ousted. I still don't know for sure who was the most influential in getting that because the project was floundering. We moved the AEC representatives from Washington, DC. The most closely associated came to Hanford and became essentially the FFTF project office on site. Most of the closely associated Westinghouse staff who had been in Pittsburgh moved to Hanford. And we were able to work over a local table rather than on the phone and at crazy meetings. And the FFTF came together quite well. I think it was very successful project. Perhaps we didn't finish it under budget, but we did well after it was reorganized. It started up and ran very successfully. Too bad that we couldn't find a better use for the plant. Of course, the liquid metal fast breeder program essentially fizzled. Let's see, from that—well, I'm getting pretty well along and I needed something maybe a little different. So I got into a rather, again, what I regard as an interesting assignment. Westinghouse there somewhere close to the period ‘78, ‘79, ‘80, had been assigned to run a nuclear quality assurance program office. And although Westinghouse Hanford was running that office, we were really a part of the AEC, or what became DoE. The work we did the next few years was largely to try and add something, coordinate the quality assurance programs around all of the sites. Lots of travel involved. Lots of lecturing. Lots of QA audits. I ran so many QA audits that I can't remember. Like I tell people, I got into more parts of Savannah River than most of the people who worked there. I think I was involved in at least 30 audits there over the years. This evolved into--that office—let’s see, it finally closed down in ’87, perhaps. And so I came back to a more conventional Hanford-type quality assurance and did that until I retired in ‘90. One of the last projects that I was on there was an SP-100. We were going to do a space reactor. And SP-100 was an interesting project, but it also never came to pass. Amazingly, ended up back in the PRTR building. Because we cleaned out some of the cells in the PRTR building and were going to put in a big vacuum tank there so we could simulate space for running this space reactor. Let's see, where'd I go from there? After I spent a little bit of time with a number of the waste program projects, including our own, and got into a little bit of the early vitrification plant. I retired in, what, December of ‘90. Spent the next three or four years doing part-time consulting. The main thing that I was associated with at that time was another interesting project. The only really commercial chemical reprocessing plant that was built was the West Valley plant, just south of Buffalo, New York. It was a small, but commercial, reprocessing plant. See, most of the reprocessing was shut down in 1970. And of course, that led to a lot of problems here at Hanford. Early '70s. I could go on about that for hours, but-- [LAUGHTER] Let's see. So I spent a lot of time at West Valley. And that was very separate. It didn't hit the newspapers. But that plant was completed. The waste that they had was vitrified into glass. And as far as I know, it's sitting there ready to go wherever. It could be up the mountain, but who knows. It's a good project in many ways.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you've had a long and varied career in many ways. A number of different assignments.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yes, I think so. I think I was very lucky to see so much.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you a few questions about some of the things you worked on. So you said you worked at both REDOX and PUREX. Could you explain the solvent extraction, and what that means?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yeah. Well, you know the purpose of our chemical processing, or chemical separation plants here at Hanford, is to take the fuel that has been irradiated in our reactors and extract from that the plutonium. And get the plutonium into a form so it can then go on down to Los Alamos for the bombs. So the chemical reprocessing plants essentially dissolve this uranium metal fuel that had been irradiated in the reactors, and a small amount of the uranium-238 has been converted into plutonium-239. And of course the atomic bombs can use either uranium-235 or plutonium-239 as their fissile source. So these plants are gigantic. They're 1,000 feet long, great big canyon buildings, as we called them. Basically just involve a lot of chemicals running from one end to the other. We start with the fuel and end up with--in the initial separation plants, they ended up with a waste stream that also included the uranium. Now we wanted to recover that uranium, so that early waste from the B and T Plants, as we refer it, these were the early bismuth phosphate separation plants. The waste from those reprocessed to recover the uranium. And the high level elements that we wanted to get rid of were put back into the waste tanks. But in both the REDOX and the PUREX processes, we actually extracted both the plutonium and uranium. So we ended up with two products. So the uranium could be immediately converted into UO-3 and then eventually back in the metal. And the plutonium could be converted into metal so it could be used for the bombs. So kind of an oversimplification there.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so your work there—your position there was operational management?</p>
<p>Gustafson: I was mostly associated with the direct operation. In the 200 Areas, except I said, after my PUREX assignment I was in just what we call the process design and development. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: And then you talked about this AEC combined operational planning group that you were part of in the late '60s. And you said, one of questions you were looking at was, what's the future of nuclear power? Did the group come up with any conclusions about that at the time in the late '60s, what the future of nuclear power was?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I think we were quite optimistic about nuclear power at that time. Of course, also what was developing was resistance to nuclear power. So our forecasts were extremely optimistic. And although we did end up finally with about 120 operating power production plants in the United States, far short of what we expected. The government had assumed, basically, I guess, overall responsibility to see that the technology is okay. And in particular, to assure commercial operators that they will have enough enriched uranium to run their plants. Because we didn't need that weapons-type material anymore. But see at Oak Ridge they ended up the producing almost pure U-235 while we were producing pure—or near pure—plutonium-239. So either of those could be used for the bombs. But what happened with the commercial power, we had to use about 3% or 4% U-235. Only slightly enriched. But we still had to use enrichment plants, and the government had all the enrichment plants—basically, like Oak Ridge and the rest of them. And so as far as AEC combined operational planning, their goal was to make sure that nuclear power did what it was supposed to do. Provide us with lots of good economic electric energy. And to a large extent, it has.</p>
<p>Bauman: Hanford, obviously as a site, was a place that emphasized security, secrecy. Were you able to talk about the work you did? Was that something that was allowable given the security secrecy?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yes, there wasn't a great deal of the security concern. It was mostly what are the resources and what can we do with this combination of government and industry to provide good electricity for the country. Economic.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to go back to when you first arrived in 1950. What were your first impressions of the place here, of Richland, of the area?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Oh, I don't know. It was a temporary stop. [LAUGHTER] Never expected to spend the next 40 years or so working here. It was a great place, particularly for young single people. We moved into dormitories and there were a lot for fine single people, ambitious, and always wanting to do things. Those were good years. We certainly accepted the security. We were part of what we felt was a very necessary effort. We were in the Cold War. And we had to do a better job than the Russians.</p>
<p>Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms and where did you move to after that?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I didn't actually live too long in the dorms. There were four of us, still good friends of mine, except one of them's gone. But we actually moved out to a small place in West Richland. So a number of the people in the dorms were looking for a little better living conditions. One of the problems with those early dorms—in theory we weren't even supposed to do any cooking in the dorms. So we strictly were going from the dorms to the local cafeteria, or a few commercial places that were opening up in Richland. It was a fascinating time, those early '50s. I got married the end of ‘55, so the first five years of single life and included my year plus when I was offsite, skiing, water skiing. Like my crowd, we were essentially the first water skiers in the Tri-Cities. At that time to find a boat, we had to go to Seattle to get one that we could use for water skiing. There wasn't any Mets Marina at that time. So we sort of started the water skiing in the area. Created the Desert Ski Club which was a snow skiing, but also got in the water skiing. Desert Ski Club still exists. So my close associates, we were sort of the instigators that. All went through our time as officers of the club. It was a big social group. Still is, I think.</p>
<p>Bauman: Richland was a federal town when you first arrived. How did you see that change over time from when you first arrived?</p>
<p>Gustafson: It's kind of hard. We certainly enjoyed our early years. We had a lot more individual responsibility on the jobs. I tell one of my stories, I came in at midnight to take over my shift at PUREX. I was the operating supervisor on C shift. And the operating supervisor on swing shift wasn't there. And I'd been met at the door with an assault mask, all of the crew were. And when I went in the building, the operating supervisor who I was to replace wasn't there, but my boss was. And I never saw him again. So, I guess I tell the story that they didn't really tell me I was captain of the ship. So anyhow, we restarted the plant. And it took us a couple months.</p>
<p>Bauman: And about when would this have been?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Pardon?</p>
<p>Bauman: What time period would this have been in?</p>
<p>Gustafson: When was that?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, roughly.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, let's see, I guess that was, must have been early ‘57, right? I'm not exactly sure now. It was a different time. Individuals have a lot of responsibility. And we made a few mistakes, but in general, I think we did a damn good job of operating the plants. And safety and radiological exposure, these were major parts of our responsibility and our concern.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you about safety. Obviously, you said it was very—emphasized quite a bit. What sort of precautions did you have to take on your job? And were there ever any incidents when you were working of someone overexposure or anything along those lines?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I think we operated with a lot of what you would probably expect military officers to have as a responsibility. And you know, you were responsible for your job and you--As an operating supervisor of my C shift at PUREX, there wasn't any other group that was responsible for the training of my operators. They were my responsibility. And if we had to send them to some special training, we'd do that. But the basic training was conducted by the supervisor. They assured whether they were qualified and whether they were able to do their job. I guess that's why when my counterpart was ejected, it was a military type operation, I guess. But I think we did a really good job. Safety was a number one concern. Radiological exposure was also a number one concern. And as far as I'm concerned, from everything I've seen, very, very few people suffered from working in our plants.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was going to ask you about President Kennedy came to the site in 1963 to visit. There was a story in the paper, a while back because it was the 50th anniversary of that. I wondered if you have any memories of that?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Oh yeah. Half the plant was out there. And I was there to welcome him as he came in on his helicopter. We were all out there.</p>
<p>Bauman: Anything in particular stand out to you about that day at all?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, I don't know. It's what we all expected at that time. There wasn't anything really unusual about this. Although I came out in 1950 saying, this is going to be a very temporary thing, I think we became--[CRYING] We became Hanford. [CRYING] Didn't expect to get emotional.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, you built a sense of community, it seems like.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Really did. Those were good years. Really good years.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah, I was going to ask you, you talked about a number of different places on site that you worked. Different assignments. Was there one of those that was the most challenging? Or the most difficult? Or maybe one that was the most rewarding?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well for me, it had to be those first few years with the PUREX plant. I've had a lot of other—what I think—good work assignments over the years. I know of no one who had the variety that I had. Certainly projects likely FFTF, I felt I had a very important role in that. I was one of these so-called cognizant engineers and my system was the main heat transport system. And it included basically the primary and secondary cooling systems. Everything from the reactor on. And the operating conditions for the plant, all of the design events and so on were channeled into that system. So that was a rewarding job, too. And I think we did a good job. As I said, we had a lot of early trouble getting that project going, but finally. So I enjoyed those years. I didn't feel the same individual responsibility that I had with the early time at PUREX.</p>
<p>Bauman: Obviously, Hanford also had the shift from production to a reduced production that you talked about, and then a shift to clean up. I wonder if those sort of mission changes impacted your work and in what ways?</p>
<p>Gustafson: Well, they certainly did. I've been involved in many parts of that. Even during my last few years with generally this overall quality assurance type bit, getting into working with the Washington, DC folks and that sort of thing.</p>
<p>Bauman: And you mentioned when you first came here, you thought it would be a short term.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>Bauman: And so for some people was. Some people did come for a short time and left. So why did you stay? I know you had some assigned that took you way to a bunch of other places, but--</p>
<p>Gustafson: Yeah. I don't know. We stayed for lots of reasons. We established a lot of close friendships. And sort of had our crowd of social as well as work relations. And we just became Hanford.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet in terms of your work at Hanford? Or your experiences that you'd like to talk about that you haven't had a chance to talk about yet? Any stories or things that stand out in your mind?</p>
<p>Gustafson: I have so many stories about Hanford that it's kind of hard to come. Of course, many. My operational years, the most direct part of the operations, were the early years. I have a lot of individual things that happened. Some of them were good, some of them weren't. I remember particularly one incident. I don't want to be called a hero, but it was rather exciting. My operator was unloading a caustic car. And he was properly dressed with his shield and so on, but the hose from the railroad car came loose and it ended up spraying up underneath his protective clothing. And I felt that I was sure glad I was there, only about ten feet away. Because he was just kind of yelling with--You know, caustic getting sprayed into your face is not really good. Grabbed a hold of him and we both got under the safety shower was there. And at least he retained most of his sight. So, that was a situation where—just sort of individual kind of exciting happening, certainly was. I had a lot of other things go on. I feel that I had a lot of important tasks at Hanford. As I said, probably my most responsible thing was when I was still pretty young there, and operating the early couple, three years of PUREX as one of the operating supervisors. Had many chances to do so many different things over the years. Let's see, what would be of--It's kind of hard to come up with individual things that you might be interested in.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, you've already talked about a number. That's been great. So I want to thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your experiences with us. We appreciate it.</p>
<p>Gustafson: Okay. Thank you.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:48:52
Bit Rate/Frequency
Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio)
317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
T Plant
REDOX
PUREX
PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor)
100 Areas
FFTF
Westinghouse Hanford
200 Area
B Plant
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1950-
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1950-1990
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
An interview with Leonard Gustafson
Description
An account of the resource
Leonard Gustafson moved to Richland, Washington in 1950 to work on the Hanford Site.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/16/2013
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
Radioactive substances
Nuclear fuels
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
100 Area
1955
200 Area
300 Area
Battelle
Cold War
Desert
Hanford
Kennedy
Los Alamo
Los Alamos
Plutonium
PUREX
River
Safety
Savannah River
T Plant
War
Westinghouse
-
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https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1583c61c6744d42545aae8cd7b5f497a.mov
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Bauman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Bush
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University Tri-Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p><strong>Northwest Public Television | Bush_Bob</strong></p>
<p>Robert Bauman: I’m going to have you start just by saying your name, first.</p>
<p>Robert Bush: Okay, my name is Bob Bush.</p>
<p>Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this interview with Robert, or Bob, Bush on July 17 of 2013. And we're having this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. And we'll be talking with Bob about his experiences working at the Hanford site. And so I'd like to start just by having you talk about how and when you arrived at Hanford. What brought you here?</p>
<p>Bush: Okay. During World War II, I was overseas. My parents were in the area, both of them working. My brother was also here in Pasco High School. When I came home from the service to Southern Idaho, Korean War broke out. Wages were frozen, and so I was looking to better myself. And I applied by mail. I was interviewed by telephone. And I came up here in 1951 to the accounting department, General Electric Company. They were the sole contractor. And for 15 years, in construction and engineering accounting, which was separate from plant operations at that time. And from there, my accounting career followed its path through several successive contractors. From GE to ITT, Atlantic Richfield, to Rockwell, and finally with Westinghouse. When I retired, I was with Westinghouse for one month.</p>
<p>Bauman: You said your parents were here during the war. When did they come out?</p>
<p>Bush: It was '43. 1943 and '44, my mother worked for the original postmaster of Richland, Ed Peddicord. And my dad was a carpenter. Built some of the first government houses called the Letter Homes. They were here about two years, I think. And then they went back to Idaho, I believe.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. And what part of Idaho?</p>
<p>Bush: Twin Falls, Idaho. Where I graduated from high school.</p>
<p>Bauman: Okay. What were your first impressions upon arriving in the Tri-Cities?</p>
<p>Bush: That's kind of interesting, Bob. Because I came up ahead of my wife and two--year-and-a-half old, and three-and-a-half-year-old sons. About two weeks ahead of them. And so I found a Liberty trailers to rent—the housing was nonexistent. And I found a Liberty trailer, which means it had no running water, no bathroom. It was like a camping trailer, basically. I sent for them. A brother-in-law who had graduated from high school went directly into the Korean War. He drove them up as far as Huntington. I went on a bus to Huntington and met them, came back. And as we came onto the Umatilla side, and I said, that's Washington. Well, there was no green and everybody was disappointed. But that's the first impression. I mean, there wasn't a bridge over the river in Umatilla. It was a ferry. So you drove around the horn at Wallula. Things were just really different.</p>
<p>Bauman: So you said you had a trailer. Where was--</p>
<p>Bush: In Pasco on a front yard of an old pioneer home, where Lewis Street crosses 10th. That was the end on Lewis Street at 10th. And from there west was called Indiana. And there was about three homes on there. And it just quit. And roughly across from the present day Pasco School Administration Building, which was a Sears building. Across the street there was where this home was. I mean, things have just—in the whole area—have changed so much.</p>
<p>Bauman: And how long did you live there then?</p>
<p>Bush: Until I was called for housing in Richland, which was six months. That was in June, no air conditioning. And finally got into an apartment building, a one-bedroom before with two little boys that slept in the same crib. It was still, basically, wartime conditions. Weren't any appliances for sale and you had to stand in line to get a refrigerator. It was a different world. But we were young, so we could take it.</p>
<p>Bauman: [LAUGHTER] And was this in Richland then, the apartment?</p>
<p>Bush: No, that was in Pasco. After that trailer, that was only about two weeks. And then we want into this apartment, the one-bedroom. Then we moved next door to a two-bedroom in a five-plex. And then in December, six months later, I got the first--I got a housing call from the housing office in Richland, which sat where the present day police station sits. And the lady offered me—she said, you could have it Saturday. It was a prefab. It had already been worn and pulled out. And I kind of hesitated. I said, I've already got something in Pasco. Well, she said, I could let you have a brand new apartment. That apartment was brand new. It was so clean. My wife, who was very fastidious, she didn't even have to clean cupboards. And the apartments have now been torn down by Kadlec for that newest building. And in fact, this morning I just went by and took a picture of Goethals Street, which is vacated. And it was quite a pleasant move to come out of a trailer into—a non-air-conditioned cinder block building apartment into a nice, brand new apartment with air conditioning, full basement, and close to work. And at that time, my office was downtown in the so-called 700 Area, which is basically where the Federal Building is--where the Bank of America is was the police station. And that's Knight Street, I believe. From there north to Swift, and from Jadwin west to Stevens where the Tastee Freeze was, that was the 700 Area confines. Probably about 22 buildings in there. The original thing prior to computers, everything was manual bookkeeping or accounting with ledgers. And they came out with a McBee Keysort cards, and it was called electronic data processing. It was spaghetti wire with holes in the boards, that type of thing. That building had to be a special airlock building. And that's the Spencer Kenney Building beside the Gesa Building. That building is built especially to house equipment. And they just went from there. And I moved around my office. And after 15 years, I went into what they call operations. I was onsite services, which—did that for 17 years. And that was probably the better part of--second better job that I had, I guess. The transportation and everything, onsite support services. The whole point there. That job took me all over the plant. I established inventories. I took some of the first inventories of construction workers' supplies and tools and shop equipment, rolling stock. My name was Mud. They thought so much of me they gave me a desk in the corner of a big lunchroom. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Bauman: So you did work at various places then?</p>
<p>Bush: Yes. Well, yes. My very first location was in North Richland, then called North Richland Camp, where the bus lot was--the maintenance shops. I'm trying to establish a point up there—what's over there today? There's a big sand dune on your left going by the automotive shops, past the bus lot, where the bus lot was. Opposite that sand dune on the other side of Stevens was a bunch of one-story temporary buildings. That was North Richland Camp. And that's where my first accounting job was there for two or three years. I had been there—I came there in June. And in January of '52, had 22 people along in my department that I worked in. I was a junior clerk at that time. Took me four years to get onto the management roles, but I did. But anyhow, in that room they came in there six months later. After I'd only been here six months, AEC, predecessor to the OA. The AEC has taken over more management, more responsibility. So we're going to be laying off a lot of people. I had only been here six months. And so others grabbed straws and went different places. I always said either I was too ignorant or lucky, I don't know what. But I just sat still and it panned out for the better. I didn't get laid off. I moved from there. But I went downtown to the 703 Building, which stood where the Federal Building is now. There's a building to the rear that the city owns called 703. That was the fourth wing. 703 was the frame construction, the three floors. And the later years, they added a fourth wing out of block building. Made it more permanent. That's why it's still standing today. Now, that was my second location. And then I got on the management role in '55, which meant I went exempt and no more pay for overtime. And went out to White Bluffs site—town site, and that's where the minor construction was located. Minor construction, it's the construction people that are specially trained in SWP, radiological construction work, as opposed to run-of-the-mill construction. And they're the ones that had never had any accounting at all for any equipment, supplies, materials or otherwise. And that's where I had the lunchroom office experience. It so happened that they established--I brought an inventory procedure and established that first inventory during a strike. We had to cut government-owned tool boxes. But still, the workers thought they were private. And we had to cut locks in order to take inventory. And then we feared for our lives when they came back. Pretty rough day sometimes.</p>
<p>Bauman: What timeframe would that have been you were out?</p>
<p>Bush: That was 1955 to '56. A couple of years there, and then another person took over from there and I went into budgeting at that point, from accounting to budgeting. And I did that for--until 1963. And then I moved out to the so-called bus lot, which it was. 105 buses and all that. And I was out there for 17 pleasant years, budgeting, billing rate—Because we were the supplier of all plant services. So we had billing rates to the reactors, and the separations, and the fuel prep, and--whoever. The AEC, everything. We billed them, just as if we were like plumbing jobs. And that I enjoyed. That was probably my most productive period. And from similar work to that, I moved over—Let’s see, I was around when the Federal Building was built, but I didn't get into it. That was built in '69. I didn't get down there until 1980. Went down there a couple of years. And then they moved us out to Hanford Square where Battelle Boulevard intersection is. And I was there--I retired from that location in 1977. My wife and I retired the same week. I've been retired 26 years now at the end of this month.</p>
<p>Bauman: Was your wife working at the Hanford Site as well?</p>
<p>Bush: She worked after the kids were grown, like most stay-at-home moms do. She stayed until the daughter was of age, and then she went to work for a credit union, which was the government credit union, which was merged later on with Gesa. But that was an interesting job. They worked two hours a day, three days a week. Because it was all hand done, no mechanization. And then she got a job offer from the department in the central stores and purchasing department. She worked there eight years. In 1986, the income tax law changed a lot of things for all of us, effective in 1987. It meant that partial vesting was--IRS has to rule on all things like that. And that meant that if you had 10 years to vest pensions, once you pass the 50% point, whatever the vesting period is, then you were partially vested. And so she had 8 years out of 10. So she got 80%. But she had only worked eight years, so it wasn't a very large accumulation. Because I got my full. Of course, I'd been here 37 years I think it was, however that works out. 36.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to go back and ask you—when you were talking earlier about that period in '55, '56 when you were working out at White Bluffs town site. You mentioned radiological construction?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, that—those construction workers worked under what they called SWP, Special Work Permit, which meant radiological. They had to wear--the clothing was called SWP clothing then. Today, they call it something else. But they worked under those conditions, so therefore they were subject to different rules. Whereas, construction workers on brand new construction weren’t then—they didn't have any of that to contend with. But once a plant went operational, it became radiologically SWP. This is not an anti-union thing. It's just a demonstration of how things were in those days. They had some old buses that--the original buses in town were called Green Hornets. And they were small. They had chrome bars that went right across the middle of your back. And for 35 miles, that was not very comfortable. When they got the newer buses that you see today, like Greyhound has for instance, they relegated those to the construction workers at White Bluffs. Well, since GE guys worked up at White Bluffs, we had to ride those, too. So all the office workers in the warehouse--GE employees rode one bus. The electricians rode another bus. Pipe fitters rode another bus, even though there were only two or three of them. It was really a segmented-type thing. As close to anything radiological that I came to when I conducting one of those physical inventories—we would be out--all of the construction materials were stored outdoors on the ground. I mean, like stainless steel. 308 stainless steel was pretty high-priced stuff. But the sheets were stored outside on pallets. Well, one sheet is worth thousands and thousands of dollars. So we had to lay down on the ground and count the sheets to do the inventory. This one day—the only time I came close to any contamination, we went back and boarded the buses that evening from White Bluffs. And we saw the guys on the dock there chipping with a chisel and hammer. That meant they were chipping out flakes of contamination. So we asked what was going on. They said, well, we're next door to F and H Areas. And F Area had coughed out something they said. And so I said, well, my crew was outside today on the ground. And if they coughed out because all the--some construction workers could drive their cars. That's the only people. Plant operations people all had to ride buses. No parking lots. So anyhow, those cars were all impounded. Had tape around them. They couldn't go home. And some of the guys, they had to take off their shoes, leave them, and be issued safety shoes in lieu of it. And I said, well, we were on the ground, too. So they proceeded to take us all off the bus and surveyed us with a wand. And they only found a few flakes on our back. And so we were allowed to go home. But that's as close as I ever came to getting contaminated. It's still scary.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Obviously, Hanford, a site where security was prominent--</p>
<p>Bush: Very tight security, yeah. I was telling the young lady here that across the roadway on Stevens, as you near the 300 Area, there was a real wide barricade, probably eight lanes that you had to go through. And everybody had to stop, including buses. And the guard would get on the bus, walk down the aisle, and check every badge. And at that time, AEC had their own security airplanes. That was the purpose of the Richland Airport was for AEC security in the beginning. They had a couple Piper Cub-type airplanes. And one day we're on a bus going out to work in the morning. And all of a sudden, a plane just zoomed on by. Somebody had run the barricade. The plane goes out, lands in front of them, stops them, and that's how they got apprehended. Another incident of security, yeah, that's the subject? Many years later now, after 1963, and I'm in the transportation assignment. Airspace was off limits to all airplanes over Hanford because they had army artillery guarding it in the Cold War and all that. And a private plane had violated the space. And the AEC planes had forced it down. And once they're down, they can't ever take off. So after a week or so, they sent a lowboy trailer out there, loaded the small airplane on it, proceeded to come down what's the highway and now Stevens. And down where Stevens today, 240 and all that intersection is, there was only two lanes on the road then, not six. But at that juncture there, there was a blinking light. And they had to turn right to go to the Richland Airport. And this guy, the truck driver pulling this low-boy, he had never pulled an airplane before. And he didn't allow for that pull. Well, that blinking light clipped off a wing. And then he got time off. It was not really his fault, that pilot in the beginning. But there's a lot of—I guess full of interesting stories like that on security.</p>
<p>Bauman: Great. Did you have special security clearance to work at Hanford at the time?</p>
<p>Bush: Which?</p>
<p>Bauman: Any special security clearance?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, yeah. I had Q clearance, which there's one higher than that, that's top secret. But Q clearance meant you could go into any and all areas. And because the nature of my job, I had that my whole time I was out there. Once you have it, they would tend not to take it away from you because it's quite expensive investigation to get it in the first place. I might mention something interesting in that regard. When I first came to work in 1951, why, the PSQ is Personnel Security Questionnaire. And it's about 25 pages long. And you had to memorize it, because every five years, you had to update it. Well anyhow, I filled that out, and you give references. And I have, in the Twin Falls area, a farmer that had been a neighbor farmer in Nebraska, where I was born, to my parents. I gave him as a reference because he had known me all my life. And that would be higher points. About a year or two later--I guess probably a year later I had gone back down to Twin Falls to visit the in-laws and I went and saw this farmer, family friend. The first thing he said to me, Bobby, what in the world did you do? [LAUGHTER] The FBI had come out to his farm and piled on the questions. And I hadn't told him ahead of time I'd given a reference. So they really did very, very tight security. It's probably tighter than it was when I was in the Air Corps.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned riding a bus out to work.</p>
<p>Bush: Yeah, everybody rode it, except those few construction workers in that minor construction area. They were permitted their cars. I don't know why, but no one else drove cars on the plant. Everybody rode on the bus. The bus fare was--of course, it was subsidized. It was a plant operation, like anything else is. To make the liability insurance legal, they charged a nickel each way on the bus, which later on got changed to a dollar or something. But many of the years, we'd ride the bus 30, 35, or 40 miles to work for a nickel. The nickel was just to make it legal. From those old green buses, they came up with some--I forget what they're called. More like Greyhound buses. And then in 1963, the year I went out to the transportation, they bought a fleet of Flxibles. And that's F-L-X. There's no E in it. That's the same kind of flat-nosed bus that the bus lines used today. And they were coaches, not buses. They had storage underneath. And so we had quite a suggestion system on the plant. And you would get monetary award or mention. And somebody said, well, instead of running mail carrier cars delivering mail to all the stops on the whole plant, load the mail onto the now available storage bins on these buses. And that was a pretty good suggestion award, monetarily, to somebody. And they did that. Took it out to a central mail station out there, and then dispatched it.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned different contractors you worked for over the years--</p>
<p>Bush: Uh-huh. The story behind that for the record is that General Elec--well, DuPont built the plant. That's who my dad worked for. And GE came in '46, I believe. And they were here until the group I was in--they phased out in groups. I was the last group to go out. [COUGH] Excuse me, in 196--'66. When the GE phased out, they had a dollar a year contract. Like Henry Kaiser and rest of them did during the war, for the good of the country. But they trained an awful lot of people in the infancy field of nuclear engineering. General Electric trained all those people here and then they opened up the turnkey operations in San Jose and Japan. But anyhow, AEC was still AEC at that point. And then, their wise decision--instead of one contractor, they would have nine. And so there were--the reactors was one. Separation plant was another. Fuel preparation at 300 Area was another. The laboratories, which is today basically Battelle. Site services. The company doctors formed a foundation called Hanford Environmental Health Foundation, which is the MDs that gave the annual exams. And the computer end, it was now getting into the infancy of that, computer sciences corps, we had the first contracts on that. So all together, there were nine contractors. And the portion that I was with went to ITT. They bid, came in and bid. I helped conduct tours of the facility for the bidders. Because I knew all about it and knew the ins and outs on some of the monetary parts that their accounting people would have questions on. We'd walk through shops and all that. Well, anyhow, ITT got the site support--site services. And we had that for five years. And austerity set in in the '70s. Well, '70. They said, we got to get site services' budget down to less than $10 million. And it probably was 13 or 14, I don't remember now. So my boss and another analyst, like myself, sequestered--talk about sequester. We sequestered ourselves in the then new Federal Building for about a week. Almost 20 hours a day, whittling and whittling and working on a budget. And there was only one conclusion. We had to cut everything in half. Went through all that sweat. Went up with our president, Tom Leddy, went upstairs to an AEC finance office, presented our whole case. And the man turns around and says, well, it doesn't make any difference, Tom. Your contract's not renewed anyhow. And so now, Atlantic Richfield, an existing contractor for 200 Areas, somehow the separations plant contractor that is an oil company owned, can all of a sudden manage a site service. And so they did absorb us. But politics were still around in those days. And there were three of us analysts. One had got transferred by ITT up to the new line--newly established Distant Early Warning Line from Russia up to Alaska. So that left two of us. And we waited around. We waited around and never got an offer. And they said, no, we can do it all without you. We don't need you. How come it took so many people anyhow? On a Friday afternoon, the man that I did budgets for saw me in a restroom. He said, you got an offer yet? I said, no, no. I'm working under the table with somebody else. Well, he says, if they don't hire you, I'm going to hire you. And so he went downtown, and about 4 o'clock, I got a call from the man that told me they didn't need us. Said they'd been kind of thinking. So I went over Atlantic Richfield under those. [AUDIO CUTS OUT] And so I'm not mad, not knocking—knocking them, that's just the way things were. And then Rockwell came to town. When they laid off everybody on B-2, I'm trying to think of other--in the community, something might be of interest for the history project. Back into the '50s. Those same green buses, they had, oh, four or five of them that ran in town like a modified transit system. I don't think they had that many riders, but it did. And also, the plant buses ran what they called shuttle routes. And those buses went into Richland on probably six routes and drove around the neighborhoods and picked up workers on the three shifts. And that's why up in the ranch house district, there was the bypass you'll see between homes. The pathways that go clear through lots. Blocks were so long that they had to provide a quicker route to the bus stops. Now, those rides were free because they were shuttle buses. When you got out to the bus lot, you paid your nickel, or a pass, whatever it was.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you about accounting in terms of equipment practices. Were there a lot of changes during the time you worked at the Hanford site? Computer technology come in and change things?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, yeah. For sure. In the beginning, as I mentioned earlier, all accounting was open ledgers and hand posted. Adding machine tapes at the end of the day trying to balance them all out. And we had that until--let's see. 1970s—I think it was 1977, we got our very first taste of it. Every other desk in a group of about 20 people in cost accounting that I was in. There was cost accounting, general accounting, and so on, property management. But anyhow, we had about 20 people. Every other desk had a monitor. Well, they referred to them as a computer. But they were just the monitor. And down at the end of our building was one printer. And everything was on floppy disk. Every program was on a floppy disk. Nothing was built-in because it was just the infancy. The big computers were down in the Federal Building. And a sub-basement below the basement was specially built for that. But back to our office. Across the hall from us, we had two small computers that are--to me, they're about the size of portable sewing machines. And I can't even remember the names of them because they don't exist today but they were the computer locally. So we wanted to run our work order system, we would phone down to the guy down at the other end of the building, insert the floppy disk from work system and wait. Well, I've got somebody's inventory. You have to wait. Because there's only one place to load up down there. So finally, you would put the floppy disk in. And then, you'd run it, which meant it'd run through it and print. But then you'd have to say, now print it. And they got one printer for the whole building. And so it's pretty interesting. Whereas today, I've got a laptop that I can virtually do everything with. But we graduated from hand posted ledgers right into computers. We didn't have anything in between. All of the reports that came out, came out on--referred to as IBM runs because everything was IBM. It was on paper that's about 18 inches wide with all these little perf marks on it to feed it. And you'd get one report and it would be about that thick. It was not that much information, but it's just so much printing. It's even hard to remember after 26 years how antiquated that is compared to today. But prior to that, it wasn't even the PCs. They called everything a PC. Or, was PC compatible. Because prior to that, the only electronic data processing nickname was spaghetti wire. I'm not very conversant in it, but it was some kind of a board that had a bunch of holes in it. They put wires in it and that went to certain things. But all it did was sort things. It didn't actually calculate them.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the community of Richland. What was that like in the 1950s? I know it was a government--</p>
<p>Bush: In the town? I guess I didn't cover that area. Everything—all houses were owned by government. We rented them. My wife and I and family, we came after the days of free everything. When the coal was free--all the furnaces were coal fed. Some people would convert them later on to oil. But anyhow, they were coal burning. However you got the coal, whether it was government days or you bought the coal from the courtyard, which is down at the end of what's now Wellsian Way. There was a coal yard where that lumber yard is. And that's why those railroad tracks that are abandoned and rundown, that's where the coal cars came in. And I can add something a little bit later about coal cars and the plant. But anyhow, we rented from the government. For example, that brand new apartment that I mentioned moving onto first was a two-bedroom, full basement. Steam heated because--I'll digress a little bit. All the downtown 700 Area, including the Catholic church, central church, the hospital, all 700 Area, including those new apartments, and all downtown shopping area were steam heated by a steam plant, which was located where the back door of the post office is today in that small parking lot. And that one plant furnished steam for everything. Well, back to this new apartment. The steam pipes ran through this full basement. And our kids played—there wasn't any yards. There was just apartments. And they would play in the basement because they were quite small. But they can remember today the pop, pop, pop in those steam pipes. And the rent for that two-bedroom apartment was higher than any other house in town. It was $77 a month. And the reason it was $77 instead of $70 was because it included $7 for electricity. Nobody had electricity meters yet. Even in that new place. So when they did put in electricity meters in all homes later, which had to be—during that time, the year we were there, which is December '51 to December of '52, sometime in that period of time they put the meters in. They took off $7 off the rent because now we're going to pay—and their theory is it was $5 for a one-bedroom place, whatever it was. $7 for a two-bedroom and $10 for a three-bedroom for electricity in those days. And nobody had electric heat, of course. And then, later on they put in water meters. And again, they had to come into your home, invade your home, and put in something. So it was strictly government prior to—well, another—and when I lived in the rental, if something went wrong with the plumbing, they would send out a plumber, but you paid for it, though. But later on when I went to the tall two-story, three-bedroom duplex houses, or called A houses, that was our first house after that apartment. And as I remember, I think the rent was--they had rent districts with low, medium, and high in the more desirable parts of town. And we were on Hop Street across from uptown district where Hunt Street is and Jefferson Park. And I think our rent for that was like $47 because it was not a brand new apartment. And later on, we—I was on the housing list. And you applied and months or years later, you'd rotate up to move into a nicer place or a different location. But in the meantime, up came an F house, which is a two-story single family, kind of a Cape Cod-looking type of house. And that came up on the housing list. However, the caveat was that you had to cash out the present owner who had made some improvements. He had converted the coal to oil, they put in a clothesline, which nobody had clotheslines, and something else. So cashed him out for—I believe it was $750. And if I do that, I could have it, so I did. We lived in that place for 19 years. Our daughter grew up there and got married out of that home. And that's the only home she ever knew. [LAUGHTER] And we were there until 1977 when the real estate market in Richland was—this is community wide. The housing prices were moving 18% a year, about 1.5% a month. And I thought well, I don't need to be setting still. I mean, if I cash out here, and went on. So we sold that home. I listed it. Calder, my father, was very ill. We were going to Spokane. I listed it. A man came by, looked it out. What were you asking? I said, oh, about 17. He shook his head. And I said, too high? He says, no, 27,000. [LAUGHTER] Just to show you how bad things were. And so it sold right away. What are you going to do now? And I said, well. Would you want to try a mobile home? I know a jewel. And in those days, real estate men did not sell mobile homes. But this couple had bought their first house from him, or something. And it was somebody retiring out of postal, wanted to go back to Montana. Never smoked in it, never had any pets in it, no kids. It was the Cadillac of mobile homes. We were there two years, but that was long enough. Then we moved into the house that I'm still in. I'm widowed now for five years. The house we're in now, we've lived in that longer than in any other place. [LAUGHTER] But the community just has changed so drastically. South Richland. People say today they live in South Richland. We lived in South Richland, which was south of the downtown shopping district to the Yakima Bridge. That was South Richland. What is now South Richland out there was Kennewick Highlands. So it depends on who you're talking to today.</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah. Do you remember any special community events, parades, any of those sorts of things during the '50s and '60s?</p>
<p>Bush: Community events?</p>
<p>Bauman: Yeah.</p>
<p>Bush: Yep. Back in GE days, they had Atomic Frontier Days. And they were a big thing. Had beauty queens in it, rode in the float, and all that. Down at the—[COUGH] excuse me. For Atomic Frontier Days down at the lower end of Lee Boulevard, which is still the same shape today. They set up booths all on there. And it was a really big event. Before we had the hydro races even. People look back fondly on that. Talking about community, again, my mother, I said, worked for the post office, which—it stood on the corner of Knight Street, where it touches George Washington Way. There's some kind of a lawyer office building there today. And the old post office is the Knights of Columbus building on the bypass highway. But she would have to take the mail and go over to where the Red Lion Motel is today, at the Desert Inn, a frame building, winged out basically the same. And that was referred to as the transient quarters. And that was for upper management that were going through and it wasn't really a public motel, per se. But she would have mail for these big wigs over there. So she would have to go over there and have a badge to even go in the front door of that Desert Inn. Talking about badges, something humorous on that. We didn't wear things around our neck in the beginning because it was like a little pocket-sized bill fold. It was a little black bill that had your pass, your badge in it. And at every building you went into, you just pulled it out, flashed it to the guard. It usually was a lady security employee. There were guards in the building, but the person on the desk was a security clerk. But you'd just automatically—you’d open it like that and flag and put it back in your pocket. Every building you went into. Downtown, 700 Area, that first building I've referred to. One day I went into a restaurant and I just did that automatically [LAUGHTER] because it's just so automatic. Then they graduated to having the thing around your neck. And then also, if you worked in the outer areas, you had to wear a radiation badge in addition to your security badge. There was two types and one of them was a flat. And I don't know the difference. One's for beta and one's for alpha. I don't know. And one of them was a pencil shaped. And that's what they called it. And the other one was a flat badge, which was carried in something around your neck. And in all the areas I worked, and the places I described laying on the ground that happened and all that, my RAMs, they call it, never accumulated in my working life to be a danger. I had some, of course. Everybody does in the background. But I never accumulated to a danger point. There were people, some smart aleck people that would take their badge and hold it over a source at work so they could get some time off. Because if you got--what was the phrase? Anyhow, if they got contaminated, they put them on a beefsteak diet. And they stayed home. And they come every day and took a urine sample and all that stuff. But they had a life of riley. So that was nice. But the guys got canned that did that. But they would purposely expose their pencil so they could stay home.</p>
<p>Bauman: So did all employees have those, either the pencil or--</p>
<p>Bush: Only those that worked in reactor and separations areas, yeah. I mentioned these departments. Actually, the first department is Fuel Preparations Department, FPD. The present—the 300 Area--most of the buildings have now been torn down that you don't even see them there. But the north half roughly was fuels preparation department headed for the reactors. They took uranium and encapsulated it in cans, like can of peas in just so many words. And the south half of that 300 Area was a laboratory area, the predecessor of Battelle. So the fuel was prepared there. And it was machined and canned and sent as nickname slugs to the reactors. Then, the reactors loaded into all those little tubes. And then from the reactors, they come out the backside into those cooling pods and all that. And transported in casks to the 200 Areas, which are the separated area, separations. And the reactor area on the face side was not that dangerous. The 200 Areas only work on what they called the canyons, PUREX and REDOX, and those kind of buildings. But those cells were very, very hot. But you had to be measured no matter where you were. One of our site services was a decontamination laundry, called the laundry. And all clothing--I mentioned to you before SWP. Well, SWP, radiologic exposure employees wore whites. Carpenters and truck drivers and all that that didn't work around reactors wore blues. And so they were sorted. And we had different billing rates for that laundry because the blues only had to be laundered and dried. Whereas the others had to be laundered, dried, and decontaminated, checked in separate washing machines. And then workers wore—in the beginning, wore World War II-style gas masks for our air supply before they invented a moon-type suit. [LAUGHTER] But they wore gas masks. And the mask would come back to this mask station, which was part of the laundry. And they took the masks, and they'd take away the cartridge. They'd put the mask in dishwasher machines, in racks. That's how they would wash them. And then they would get them a new filter and package them up. Sanitize them and package them up like medical supplies would be in. I can't think of any other unusual operation out there like that.</p>
<p>Bauman: I want to change gears just a little bit. President Kennedy visited the site in 1963.</p>
<p>Bush: Yep, 1963.</p>
<p>Bauman: I was wondering--</p>
<p>Bush: When they did that, they let all the schools out. And for the first time, non-workers were allowed to go in cars out there. It was a grand traffic jam, but it was quite a deal. And he landed his Air Force plane up at Moses Lake—at Larson airbase at Ephrata, whichever you want to call it. And then helicoptered. And of course, like it is today, there were three or four helicopters. And you don't know which one he's on and all that bit. And here, everyone is gathered out the N Reactor area, which is a dual-purpose reactor. They captured the heat from the reactor, put it through a pipe through a fence to the predecessor to Energy Northwest, which was called Whoops. This was a big deal, a dual-purpose reactor. And N stood for new reactor, really. Anyhow, he comes in and they got a low-boy trailer. They fixed up down in the shops where I worked—my office was. And then built a podium just precisely for the President with him emblem and the whole bit. So I was privy to get to see some things like that. But anyhow, that was the stage. And it was a long low-boy, so it accommodated all the senators and all the local—Sam Volpentest, the guy credited with HAMMER, those type of people. Glen Lee from the Tri-City Herald, you name it. So the helicopter comes in, blows dust over everybody. But anyhow, my wife and kids and all schools were brought out there. And I don't know how many thousand people were out there in the desert. And you could see President Kennedy. He got up on the stage. You get close enough, you could get pictures. Then, that same year in November, he got assassinated. So that was a busy year.</p>
<p>Bauman: Do you remember any other special events with dignitaries like that? Or other--</p>
<p>Bush: Well, I could go way back to World War II. I wasn't here, but I have a family connection on it. All over United States, they had war bond drives for various reasons to help. Build a ship, build an airplane. The one that happened here is not the only one. But they took so much money out of all the paycheck of Hanford workers, which included my dad as a carpenter. And the money they collected bought the B-17 Bomber, which was named Day's Pay. And that bomber—they had a bomber out here, a B-17, so that people could see it, but it wasn't the same one. On the Richland High School wall there's a mural. And that's a rendition by a famous artist of Day's Pay in formation. And so I can say that my parents contributed to that. And that's the story behind that one bomber. Every worker out there, construction or operations, they donated a day's pay.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder, what was the most challenging part of your job working at the Hanford site?</p>
<p>Bush: As an accounting person, my most challenging part was learning government-ese. [LAUGHTER] How to deal. And in that vein, that took a long time. But once you learn it, there is a way in the US government, period. As I'm sure there is in certain corporations. Later on, when I mentioned that I went down to the federal building for my--finally got located in that building, there was another fellow and I were old timers in accounting. And that year, they had five college grads, accounting grads come in. They hired five at one time. And they ran them by Marv and I for exposure. This is how things are done. This is how the contacts are. And our basic job was to squire these young fellows around and introduce them to certain counterparts and now DOE. Now, this is how you make appointments with them. This is what you do. This is what you never do. And likewise, with senior management. And it paid off because of those five, all four of them became managers or supervisors, and one of them became my manager within two years. Today, that same man is the comptroller at Savannah River Plant. [LAUGHTER] And so I like to feel that I contributed to them being—partially to them being successful. And so that's a reward. But probably the most difficult thing coming from a private—I worked for Colorado Mill and Elevator, which means I worked at a flour mill district office as a bookkeeper. And that's a small town deal in Twin Falls. To come to work for the government where some of your family despises you because you work for the government, but you had to fight that as well as learn how the government operates.</p>
<p>Bauman: You mentioned earlier, you were talking about coal being used for heat in Richland. You also said you wanted to talk about coal fires going up at the site.</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, what?</p>
<p>Bauman: Coal fires?</p>
<p>Bush: Oh, yeah. Interestingly, the midway power station, substation at midway, is one of the reasons they built Hanford where they did because the Grand Coulee Dam had just been completed and an electricity producer—a major producer. And they put the midway substation down there. That basically was built to furnish huge amounts of power to Hanford, for the reactors, everything. Which in total—because I processed vouchers, I know it was 32 megs. Which today doesn't sound like much, but the whole plant bill was 32 megs when everything was operating. But if the power were interrupted, they had to have a backup. So every area had a huge diesel-powered--like water pumps, where they could pump the water from the river instead of by electrically. They had to be able to pump it because it was critical. Because all the water for the whole plant was taken in at intake water plants near the reactors along the river. The 200 Area water is piped to them in a huge line as raw water until it gets to their place. The backup is these coal-fired steam plants, is what I was trying to say. It got about 30-some cars of coal a day rolled through Richland past the cemetery. In the beginning, the railroad came down from the north, from Vantage area down along the Columbia River. There's a railroad bridge across the river, Beverly I think it is. And it came down to below the 100-B Reactor area. That's where the line ended. And then a plant had its own railway incidentally. It had a 285 mile-long rail line, high line and low line. Then, they built--in 1950, the year before I came, they built the line that we see today that comes from Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car Columbia Center into Richland, by the cemetery. And it ends at the old bus lot area, where that railroad car rebuilding outfit is now, there is a roundhouse that it's rectangular in shape. But some 30 cars of coal a day came in here to supply because those plants were—they actually operated the steam plants. They didn't start them up from cold. They just ran constantly.</p>
<p>Bauman: I wonder if you could provide sort of an overall assessment of how Hanford was as a place to work. What was it like as a place to work?</p>
<p>Bush: It was a great place for me. I came out of an area that was the agriculturally-oriented. And the Korean War started. Wages were frozen, you weren't going to go anywhere. I came up here and I got a new start, like pioneers did. I visualized that's what farming pioneers did the same thing. And it opened up a whole field for me, a big corporate field. And it's just been a great place to work. And it was not dangerous to me. I'm not afraid to drink the water here. I'm asked by a nephew in Hermiston constantly, how do you drink the water? And I said, well, it comes out of the river. How can it come out of the river and that plume’s out there? There's so many false stories around here. But working at Hanford, I think, by and large, almost all employees would tell you the same thing. It was a great place to work. The pay was decent. Maybe you didn't get rich, but it was decent. It's in a nice area to live in. When we came back in the '50s, or in the '40s, and before that even of course, shopping was pretty much nonexistent. They went to Yakima, or Spokane, or Walla Walla. That I didn’t—we didn't experience that too much by 1951 because by that time, the Uptown shopping district was built. And there was a men's store. And there was four women's stores. Because GE was the prime contractor, there was an appliance dealer that handled GE-Hotpoint appliances. We got employee discounts when we worked for GE. We also got 10% gasoline discount when we worked for Atlantic Richfield Hanford. But we just grew with the times. And it's just such an entirely different area now than it was. Just the world is different, too.</p>
<p>Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about? Is there anything you would like to talk about that we haven't talked about yet?</p>
<p>Bush: Now really, work-wise at Hanford, I think I’ve pretty well-covered it. I'll repeat myself. My first 15 years was construction engineering accounting, which is an entirely different field than operations accounting. Operations accounting concerns itself with the reactors and separations and the site services that support them. But I learned a lot by working at Hanford. My family, three adult children live here, are retired here. My oldest son went on Medicare this year. [LAUGHTER] And that kind of puts you in your place quickly. But it's been a good enough place that they stayed in the area. And of the six granddaughters, grandchildren, four of them are in the area. And that's kind of characteristic with a lot of the Tri-City families. They stay or come back.</p>
<p>Bauman: Well, Bob, I'd like to thank you very much for coming and talking to us today. I really appreciate it.</p>
<p>Bush: It's been my pleasure.</p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:02:19
Bit Rate/Frequency
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256kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 Area
300 Area
B Reactor
700 Area
N Reactor
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1951-1977
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1951-1977
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Ed Peddicord
Tom Leddy
Glen Lee
Original Format
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mov
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Bob Bush
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Bush moved to the Tri-Cities in 1951 to work on the Hanford Site.
An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
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07-17-2013
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
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video/mov
Date Modified
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2017-13-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Hanford Site (Wash.)
Pasco (Wash.)
Richland (Wash.)
1955
200 Area
300 Area
700 Area
703 Building
B Reactor
Battelle
Cat
Cold War
Dam
Desert
DuPont
Energy Northwest
F Area
FBI
General Electric
H Area
HAMMER
Hanford
Henry Kaiser
Hunting
Kennedy
Kennewick
N Reactor
Park
PUREX
River
Savannah River
School
Street
supplies
War
Westinghouse
-
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d741c436a87a4df782ed4afe3b9f60b6
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F25b95c192b96464279627aadd09cf21d.mp4
9f530d60f6f74bc722817bb2999877a3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Post-1943 Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Description
An account of the resource
Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Robert Franklin
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Daniel Barnett
Location
The location of the interview
Washington State University - Tri Cities
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin and I’m conducting an oral history interview with Daniel Barnett on July 13<sup>th</sup>, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Daniel Barnett about his experiences growing up in Richland and working at the Hanford site. So the best place to start, I think, is the beginning. So why don’t you tell me where you were born and what year.</p>
<p>Daniel Barnett: I was born in Aberdeen, Washington in 1938—August 13<sup>th</sup>.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: And when the war started, my dad was working for the Harbor Patrol in Seattle as a patrolman. He heard that they were hiring over here, so he came over here and they hired him almost instantly because he already had the security clearance and everything.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ah.</p>
<p>Barnett: So he called my mom and told her that he had a job over here and to get herself packed, because he was gonna get her. But when she moved here, she couldn’t move to Richland. It wasn’t even on the map at that time. They took it off the map and everything. She had to move to Prosser.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: And later on when they finally got a prefab built, we moved into a prefab at 1011 Sanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: Where was your father from? Was he from Washington?</p>
<p>Barnett: He was from Oregon. All my family is from Oregon except for me. My dad said he couldn’t get across the border fast enough.</p>
<p>Franklin: So being from—what drew him to Hanford? Was it the pay?</p>
<p>Barnett: I think so. Well, he was originally—he worked at a plywood plant, then he went to work for Harbor Patrol. He had asthma, which the wet climate apparently irritated. So he had a chance to get over here, so he moved over here.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So the climate played a—</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --big factor and wanted the dry and the sunshine.</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, probably the pay, too, because the pay was good for those times.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And how long did your family live in Prosser before you moved?</p>
<p>Barnett: We were there about a year, I think. I don’t remember truthfully—I was only about five when we moved there. And I was there probably about a year. I just vaguely remember moving to Prosser.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Okay. And you moved—so you came over in 1944—</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --right? And so you would have moved to Richland in 1944? About there?</p>
<p>Barnett: Oh—I think we actually—Dad came over, I think in ’43. A year later, in ’44 we moved over.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: Because I remember ’45 when they announced the war—dropping the bomb on Japan, and Mom told Dad when he come home, I know what you’ve been guarding! [LAUGHTER] Because he didn’t even know what he was guarding at the time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Wow. Did your dad talk about his work much? Or maybe [INAUDIBLE]</p>
<p>Barnett: He worked as a patrolman until they sold the town and then he became a painter.</p>
<p>Franklin: A painter?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, he was an artist so then he became a painter and painted the houses and the buildings in Richland. Because when the government owned Richland, if you had a paint job needed done on the house, you called them and they come in and painted it. You didn’t hire somebody from a company to paint it. The government did it.</p>
<p>Franklin: And was he a patrolman onsite the entire time until they sold the town?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. Was he assigned to a specific area, or--?</p>
<p>Barnett: No, just general patrol. He talked about patrolling the fences, taking their Jeeps and going down the length of the fences and checking them out, and all that sort of stuff. But just a general patrolman, not any special area.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And you said that your—what did your mother do when she first got here?</p>
<p>Barnett: Oh, she was just a housewife. She eventually went to work as a waitress. And then finally she got on to work at Hanford. She worked with Battelle for about 29 years as a lab tech.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow. Do you know which lab she worked in?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, she did—where they did testing on the animals. Though at that time they were testing marijuana on chimpanzees and different types of animals. She did the test work on the meat from the animals.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Barnett: So I don’t know exactly—it was—again, probably wasn’t supposed to be told, so she didn’t say much about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did she have any schooling beyond—</p>
<p>Barnett: Just high school.</p>
<p>Franklin: Just high school. And what about your father, did he--?</p>
<p>Barnett: He was just high school.</p>
<p>Franklin: Just high school as well. Where did your mother waitress at?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the first place she had was O’Malley’s Drug Store which now is a—what do you call it? A Tojo Gym? Where they teach different martial arts?</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: It’s down on Williams, right off of Williams. That’s what it is now.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: O’Malley’s Drug Store eventually closed, moved up to Kadlec. And a lady bought it from him, and now she’s down there on George Washington Way.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: And right by O’Malley’s Drug Store used to be a Mayfair market. So I sold newspapers out at the lunch halls at Hanford. Sold—well, I don’t remember—but I think it was the <em>Columbia Basin News </em>to start out, because that was the first newspaper of the Tri-Cities, was the <em>Columbia Basin News</em>. Then they bought them out and became the <em>Tri-City Herald</em>. But I remember selling—give you an idea, you can figure out how much time, because I remember one of the headlines was—one of the union leaders had been arrested by the government. And I don’t even remember who it was, it’s been so long ago. But I remember that was one of the headlines of one of the newspapers.</p>
<p>Franklin: What about—do you remember the <em>Richland Villager</em> at all? That was a local paper.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, but it wasn’t very much. It was very small.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: I delivered the <em>Seattle P-I.</em></p>
<p>Franklin: <em>Seattle P-I</em>?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And you said your mother started waitressing at Malley? At O’Malley’s or Malley’s?</p>
<p>Barnett: At O’Malley’s.</p>
<p>Franklin: O’Malley’s. And then did she waitress anywhere else in Richland?</p>
<p>Barnett: Not that I know of. From there she went out to Hanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that was when pharmacies or drug stores as we know them now, they used to have lunch counters.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And so they would go there and they were more of like a café-slash-pharmacy.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah. The one up on Thayer, I think it was Densow’s at that time. That had a heyday lunch counter in it, coffee shop. It closed up and now I think it’s just pharmacy.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Barnett: But where the south end—what do you call it? You know when you get down here, you sit and try to remember things and you get kind of jumbled up—Salvation Army building is now on Thayer was originally the Mayfair Market.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what did they sell there?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, that was the grocery store.</p>
<p>Franklin: Grocery store, okay. Do you remember—so you said you moved into—what was the address on Sanford?</p>
<p>Barnett: 1011 Sanford.</p>
<p>Franklin: And do you remember what kind of prefabricated house it was?</p>
<p>Barnett: It was three-bedroom.</p>
<p>Franklin: Three-bedroom prefab, okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: No, I think it was two-bedroom, because my sister was just a little baby then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And did you share a room with your sister?</p>
<p>Barnett: Probably with my brother.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, so how many siblings—</p>
<p>Barnett: Had three kids. I had an older brother. We were about five years apart.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So an older brother, you, and then a younger sister.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then how long did you live at 1011 Sanford?</p>
<p>Barnett: I don’t really remember, but it must have been three or four years, because as soon as they got the A houses built, we had a chance to move into one. And we moved immediately to one. Because we had three kids, and a prefab’s kind of tight for three kids.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, yeah. I live in a two-bedroom prefab. And it’s—with just my wife, and it’s pretty—</p>
<p>Barnett: Well you know why they’re called prefabs.</p>
<p>Franklin: Tell me.</p>
<p>Barnett: They were built by a company, brought in in two sections and then put together. They were prefabricated.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, the prefabricated engineering company out of Portland.</p>
<p>Barnett: And nobody could figure out why they put that little square door in the back other than to throw the garbage out it. I don’t know—have you ever heard of Dupus Boomer?</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes.</p>
<p>Barnett: He made some cartoons about that backdoor.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and that the rooves had a tendency to fly away.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: And they had to put—</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, in 1955, they did. They had two of them blow off.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, those are great cartoons.</p>
<p>Barnett: Like “Pa wants a bathtub.” [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p>Franklin: So tell me a little more about growing up in Richland. Which schools did you go to?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the first school I went was Carmichael. And that was probably a mile-and-a-half away. We walked to school. Nobody thought anything about it. There wasn’t any buses. There was a bus system in Richland, but it was run by the government. It was a little old bus that you could pick up in two places in Richland to go downtown and go to a movie and come back. But no buses hauled you to school. There was high school buses that hauled people. They picked them up in the Horse Heaven Hills on farms and brought them to Hanford—I mean to Col High—it’s Hanford now. But, no, I walked to school real regular, didn’t think about it, nobody had any panic about walking to school. Everybody did it because it’s normal.</p>
<p>Franklin: And do you remember—so you would have been going to—was it Carmichael—growing up right in the early Cold War. What do you remember about civil defense? Duck-and-cover, air raids.</p>
<p>Barnett: I don’t remember doing that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p>Barnett: I don’t know whether we did or not, but I don’t remember doing that.</p>
<p>Franklin: Do you remember knowing what was being made at Hanford? Did you ever have any fear—how real did the Cold War seem to you?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the Cold War affected me quite a bit because I was in eight years during the Cold War—in the Air Force.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: The security was a lot tighter. I mean, there was—you couldn’t go out to Hanford without having your security badge checked. Now you can drive clear to the Area and before you go in the Area have your badge checked.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: But then, there was a badge check when you got on the buses, the badge check, when you got out to your area, and then again they checked your badges when you left the area.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: So it was—the security was real tight.</p>
<p>Franklin: Mm-hmm. But what about when you were growing up, when you were a kid in school? Did you ever have any special fear or pride in what was being made at Hanford?</p>
<p>Barnett: Nope. It was—like I said, nobody knew what they were doing out there until they dropped the bomb. Then they found out they’d been protecting part of the atomic bomb.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: But I had no fears about it. I went down the irrigation ditch—there used to be an irrigation ditch that ran through town that started—it had two, three ponds on Wellsian Way that were the settling ponds for Richland’s water system. And we used to go there and swim in them. One of the ponds they eventually made a juvenile fishing pond. And the irrigation ditch runs from there, clear down to where the hospital is, down in front of the hospital, several ponds down through the hospital and then under—well, through the Uptown district, one of them went through the Uptown district, and one went to the Columbia River. And wasn’t until ’48 that they finally put a pump in there, because in ’48 when they built the dam—they built the dike, rather—the irrigation ditches plugged up. So they had to put up a pump station in so they could pump the water irrigation ditch up into the river. We used to fish in that. We used to go down there and slide down—slide over where the pump was, because it was all slick and slimy. We’d put on an old pair of jeans and go down there and slide into the water. I mean, that’s things kids then. Nowadays they wouldn’t even think about it. My mother told me when I could swim 25 feet, I could go in the river by myself. Mainly because you didn’t go to the river too often in the winter; you went in the summer. And there’s not a place in the Yakima, if you can swim 25 feet, you can’t get back to the shore. So I spent all my—most weekends and spare time at the Yakima River playing around.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. What about—maybe you could talk a little bit about the growth of Richland and kind of the building of some of the major hallmarks, like the Uptown and the—</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the Uptown was built—the rest of it closed up, but originally the Uptown—as you come into Uptown off to the left—that was a big theater. And we used to have a big matinee. The Spudnut’s shop has always been there. I can remember going to the movie on a Saturday and the lineup for the movie—I think it was 20 cents for a movie then. But it was clear past the Spudnut shop. We used to watch the owner there making the Spudnuts while we were waiting to get into the movies.</p>
<p>Franklin: Has that been in its same location--</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p>Franklin: --in the mall?</p>
<p>Barnett: Spudnut’s has been there ever since it started. They originally were out there in Kennewick. If you go in there and pick up their menu, they have a little story about where they started. They started out there in the Wye.</p>
<p>Franklin: That’s great. And what else about it? Because Richland kind of developed out towards--</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, Newberry’s was on the other end of the Uptown district. That was kind of a department store type. I think the only one I saw was about 15 years ago, and that was in the Dalles, Oregon. I don’t even know if they exist anymore. The downtown district, every year we had different contests for the kids. They had marble shooting contests and bubblegum blowing contests—all kind of contests to keep the kids’ interest.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: At that time, the—what is it? The Allied Arts, or was that in the Atomic Frontier Days?</p>
<p>Franklin: Can you talk maybe a little bit about the Atomic Frontier—do you remember going to the parades?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah. They had a lot of the old western movie stars come to the Atomic Frontier Days.</p>
<p>Franklin: Like—do you remember any names in particular?</p>
<p>Barnett: No, I don’t. Like I say, a kid doesn’t retain names like that. He hears them and doesn’t retain them. But my dad, apparently, knew a couple of them, so he visited with them. It started out as just a celebration of Hanford and stuff. And then it worked into the Allied Arts show.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And do you remember any particulars of those celebrations, like the parade—the floats, or—</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, there wasn’t any parade. There wasn’t any parade, and where Howard Amon Park is, there used to be a swimming pool. You know where it makes a turnaround? Well, there off to the right there used to be a swimming pool. And right now, they still got the old children’s swimming pool there, but then there was a regular swimming pool in the water. And in 1948 when the big flood came, it filled up full of water and they ended up breaking it up and burying it and building the Howard Prout pool. But we used to go down there and swim just about every day. And we’d go to the other end of the park and pick peaches, because it used to be a peach orchard. Because there were orchards all over town. Where Jason Lee was—the old Jason Lee—that was a cherry orchard. Where Densow is, that was a cherry orchard. Carmichael had an orchard. There was orchards all over town. Because this was an agriculture district at the time the government bought it and moved in.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were you in any clubs or—</p>
<p>Barnett: I was a boy scouts.</p>
<p>Franklin: --organizations? Boy Scouts?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah. We had—one that sticks in my mind the most was we had one of our young scouts drowned at the Uptown. That’s the one I mentioned. He went on an inner tube, fell in the water and drowned. That was in ’48. And actually, the water where the hospital was, the irrigation ditch you got there, that was 15-foot deep at that time.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p>Barnett: That backed up so much, they—that’s when they built what they called the America Mile, the dike. They called all the earthmovers from Hanford out to Richland to build that dike. Because when they started, the water was lapping over the edge to go into the houses. And they poured that thing in about 24 hours.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that’s amazing.</p>
<p>Barnett: Now, the George Washington Way was closed to all civilian traffic, and these great big earthmovers were just going down the road, 30, 40 miles an hour.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. What other kinds of activities did you do in Boy Scouts?</p>
<p>Barnett: Oh, built models. Car models. You whittle them out, put the wheels on them, all that, have races with them. Went on trips. Just normal Boy Scout stuff. Got a little more sophisticated, but just the normal Boy Scout stuff then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And so after you went to Carmichael, did you then go to Richland High?</p>
<p>Barnett: Col High.</p>
<p>Franklin: Col High?</p>
<p>Barnett: [LAUGHTER] It was Col High then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Barnett: They changed the name because there was a Col High downstream on the Columbia that had had the name before Richland High was called Col High. So they changed it to Richland High instead of Col High.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh. But was the mascot always still the—</p>
<p>Barnett: All the bomber.</p>
<p>Franklin: --bombers? Okay. So the Col High Bombers?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yup.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And when did you graduate high school?</p>
<p>Barnett: 1957.</p>
<p>Franklin: And then what did you do?</p>
<p>Barnett: I went in the Air Force. I think about two months after I got out and I went in the Air Force. I already spent 27 months in the National Guards. I got in the National Guards when I was 16, and when I went to sign up for the Air Force, the squadron commander of the National Guards was—he got shook up because he enlisted me when I was 16. [LAUGHTER] So they changed the date on my discharge papers from the National Guards. So according to my discharge papers from the National Guards, I’m 78 right now.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p>Barnett: Those days, they did things like that, nobody thought anything about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, yeah.</p>
<p>Barnett: Because if you were warm they took you into the military then.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. [LAUGHTER] And what did you—describe your time in the Air Force.</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, of course there was basic training. The first place I went was Westover, Massachusetts—that’s Springfield, Massachusetts. And that was a total culture shock for me, because I grew up in a comparatively small city. And Springfield then had over 100,000 people in it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right, and I guess, too, at this point you would have completely grown up when Richland was a government—</p>
<p>Barnett: Yup.</p>
<p>Franklin: --still was all government space.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yup, they sold it while I was in the Air Force.</p>
<p>Franklin: Can—actually I guess maybe we can back up a little bit. What strikes you, maybe looking back on that, or—</p>
<p>Barnett: I watched them build the Alphabet Houses. And there wasn’t one or two people on the houses; there was five or six building these houses. And they seemed to go up overnight. One of the things that I don’t know is fact or not, but knowing the government it probably was—is they were supposed to build half basements for a coal fire furnace, a coal bin, and two tubs, and place for a washing machine. The contractors screwed up on some of them and built a full basement. And the government found out about it and made them go back in and seal half the basement with dirt. [LAUGHTER] Typical government.</p>
<p>Franklin: Were your—granted you were a kid at this point, but was your sense—were people happy—</p>
<p>Barnett: Oh yeah!</p>
<p>Franklin: living in a government-controlled and -owned town?</p>
<p>Barnett: Nobody thought anything about it. There was very little crime. Because at that time, there was only about two, three ways to get out of Richland. So there was nobody causing any big deal. And if you got in a whole bunch of trouble—you didn’t live in Richland unless you worked at Hanford. And if your kids got into too much trouble, they told the parents, you calm them down or go find another job. So it was stopped.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Did you—was Richland mostly a white community at that time? Right? Were there any other—</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, there was—one, I think there was only one black community in Richland—Norris Brown. And I think they lived in Putnam.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: I remember we had a basketball game in Sunnyside. And Sunnyside wasn’t gonna let them play on their court. And we told them, fine, we’ll just get up and leave. So we all started to get up and leave and they finally broke it and gave in and let them play on the basketball court.</p>
<p>Franklin: How did you know this family? Did you go to school together?</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, I went to school with them.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh okay, and did you play basketball?</p>
<p>Barnett: No! I’m not a sports—I had my first surgery on my knee when I was about 13, so—</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow.</p>
<p>Barnett: I’ve never played any sports. My sporting then was hunting and fishing.</p>
<p>Franklin: But you kind of heard about this story?</p>
<p>Barnett: Oh, yeah. We all know them. Went to basketball games. Then there was sock hops and at noon they taught dancing in the lunchrooms for kids that wanted to learn how to dance.</p>
<p>Franklin: So do you know what the patriarch of that family would have done at Hanford to be able to earn a place at Hanford? Because mostly from what I’ve heard, mostly African Americans had to live in Pasco.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, because they wouldn’t let them live in Richland—I mean Kennewick.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, in Kennewick. So how did—do you know any particulars as to how that family was able to live in Richland?</p>
<p>Barnett: I think it’s just that the government—that they had to be equal on them, and they just hired them and they went to work out there. I don’t know any particulars on it, but that’s basic what it was.</p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: They were in a government town, and there was no way that anybody could refuse—and there was nobody that complained about it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: Again, the government controlled it. They said, if you don’t like it, goodbye.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And they would—they called the government for pretty much anything you needed on the house, right? For coal?</p>
<p>Barnett: Right. Lightbulbs, chains, coal. But coal was delivered once a—I don’t know whether it was once a month or once a week. But coal was automatically delivered. And like I say, if there was anything major done, you called the housing department. They came in and fixed it.</p>
<p>Franklin: I think sometimes for outsiders looking in, it’s kind of striking to hear about the government completely owning this town and controlling the lives of the people and having that much control on people’s freedoms and responsibility. But from the people I’ve talked to who grow up in Richland, they have very fond memories of it.</p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, there was no restrictions on the normal freedoms. There was restriction on if your kids got into trouble, because, like I said, the patrol would go up to the person that had the kids that were causing the problem and said you either straighten your kids out or you go and find another job. Which, to me, made common sense. And so it was actually pretty decent.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever get any sense from your parents that they felt, maybe, restricted, not being able to own their own home or do any of their own repairs, or did they just—</p>
<p>Barnett: No, not then. I think—that was just after the Depression—I think they were just happy to be able to get a home.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Interesting. Because, you know, for some people looking outside, you could look at that level of government control—because we have these big debates about the role of the government in society today, and it’s kind of interesting to hear about it.</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, there was no control where the government come in and said, you do this and you do that and you do this. As long as you didn’t get into trouble and you did your job, and were a normal person, there was nobody ever complained about it. I remember I was back behind where the Racquet Club is. I was hunting ground squirrels with a .22 one day. And at that time, nobody had any problems with it. And one of the Richland patrol people came and picked me up and brought me back to the patrol station. And he called my dad. My dad come in and he says, what’s wrong? He says, we caught your boy shooting .22s at such-and-such area. He said, well, is he aiming at the road? Said, no. Said, did he shoot it at anybody? Said, no. Then what the hell are you bothering me about? I mean, that’s just how it was in those times. It wasn’t any of this, oh my god, he’s got a gun. It just was normal. Because I had my first rifle when I was about—I must have been about eight years old. And we used to go out and go rabbit hunting.</p>
<p>Franklin: Did you ever spend much time in Kennewick or Pasco—in either of those--?</p>
<p>Barnett: Not really. My wife was born in Pasco.</p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p>Barnett: I never spent much time in it because I had no reason to. I mean, it wasn’t the case of I was afraid to or wary about it—just I had no reason to. All, everything I needed was in Richland or around the Richland area.</p>
<p>Franklin: Why did you first have to get surgery on your knee at 13?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, my knee locked. I didn’t find out until about 25 years later that the doctor had actually not fixed it. Because what they found out was there was a meniscus cartilage—you know in your knee? And mine was oblong and it had broke in half. And it had slipped between the joint and it had locked my knee so I couldn’t straighten it out. So I’d have to pick it up, lay it across the other leg, and pull it and pop it back out. But that was the first—I was accident prone. I had a radical mastoid when I was about 15. By the time I got out of high school, I probably had 100 stitches in me. I mean, if it happened, I did it and got it happened to me. I was playing baseball, jumped over a fence, and landed on a guard rake with the thongs up—four thongs in one of my foot.</p>
<p>Franklin: Ouch.</p>
<p>Barnett: Weird things like that are always happening to me. One time, when I was in school, I reached up to open a door and a kid slammed it and put my hand through the window, sliced across this way. And I looked at it, bleeding, and I closed it up and went to the nurse’s office. The nurse got all panicky. She called my mom, and I could hear my mom say over the phone real loud, again?! And the nurse must’ve thought she was the hard-heartest old lady there ever was, but my mother was just used to it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Barnett: And I didn’t do things out of the way to have it happen, just—if it’s gonna be an odd thing, it happened.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: So I kind of, like I say, with all this mess I got with my knee now, I call it Young Stupid Male Syndrome, a lot of it. I don’t—I get frustrated with it, because I love to garden and I can’t garden anymore. But I don’t get worried or depressed about it, because it’s there and nothing I can do about it, so just live with it.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. So jump back ahead now. So you said you moved to Springfield in the Air Force for basic training, and that was—</p>
<p>Barnett: No, I was—San Antonio for basic training, and then to Springfield.</p>
<p>Franklin: And that was a big culture shock.</p>
<p>Barnett: Oh, yeah. I mean, I drove a vehicle and drove into town to haul officers into town. And here is a town with 100,000 people and I’d never been in anything bigger than Richland, Washington. So you can imagine the shock it was, being in that kind of traffic.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And then where did you go after that?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, I was there for about a year-and-a-half, two years. Then I went to Thule, Greenland.</p>
<p>Franklin: Interesting.</p>
<p>Barnett: Top of the world.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah. And what were you—was that for the—weren’t there bombers stationed—</p>
<p>Barnett: No, they had the fueling planes there. Yes, they had SAC planes all over the world at that time. But at Thule they had the KC-135s and the KC-97s that were fueling planes.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p>Barnett: So we were there to support them.</p>
<p>Franklin: And those were there to refuel the—</p>
<p>Barnett: The B-52s.</p>
<p>Franklin: --the B-52s that were carrying weapons in case of--</p>
<p>Barnett: Yup, because there was one from every base in the world in the air 24 hours a day.</p>
<p>Franklin: Right. And can you talk—what was that like, to be in—and was the base separated from any other communities in Greenland, or did you--</p>
<p>Barnett: It was a base of its own. There were no other communities besides Thule, that’s it.</p>
<p>Franklin: And how long were you there?</p>
<p>Barnett: Year.</p>
<p>Franklin: And what was that like?</p>
<p>Barnett: Well, it’s an interesting place to visit, but you don’t want to live there permanently. [LAUGHTER] Let’s put it that way. They have permafrost which is—oh, I guess about two foot down. So in the spring there are all these little beautiful tundra flowers—yellows and whites and all that. And then when they’re gone it’s just green grass and that’s it. And when they went to put a pole in the ground, they put a can—a barrel of oil in the ground, and light the oil, and then dig around that barrel. Because that’s the only way to get down past the permafrost. Because permafrost is almost like concrete.</p>
<p>Franklin: Yes, yeah. I’m from Alaska originally, and so I’m very familiar with permafrost. So after Greenland, where did you go?</p>
<p>Barnett: Went to Mountain Home Air Force Base.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: And where is that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Idaho, Washington.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. So kind of close to--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, out in Mountain Home. They had B-47s then at Mountain Home.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I figured out that they actually phased out B-47s because they were built before the B-52s and they figured the B-47s weren't worth keeping around.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: And what did you do in the Air Force?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I drove. I drove every kind of vehicle you can think of.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah. When I moved to Fairchild from Mountain Home, I was trained to tow B-52s in the back, in the hangars.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: With a five-ton Yuke. Four-wheel drive, five ton, and you had wing walkers on the outside that would guide you, and you would back this thing up, this big B-52 into a hangar. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: They would pull it down to a fueling station or whatever. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Cool. And then when did you come back to Richland?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: 1965. I got out to Richland and we moved to--I can't remember the address, but it was on Marshall. We moved to a house on Marshall.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Was it an Alphabet House, or was it a--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, it was an Alphabet House. I remember it most because the neighbors had a monkey. And the monkey kept stealing my daughter's candy from her. [LAUGHTER] </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: So you said--wait, so by this point you had a family?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, I had--I adopted my oldest boy and I had two children.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: They were all born at Fairchild.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And a wife, I presume?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: And what did your wife do in Richland?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: She was just a mother. But we divorced in about '70. And then I remarried.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. And what did you do when you came back to Richland?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Anything I could. I worked at O'Malley's Drug Store for a while. I worked at his house--O'Malley's house, leveled his backyard. I worked at Walter's Grape Juice, I worked at Bell Furniture, I worked at—at that time, it was originally called the Mart, at that big building right next to the Federal Building. At one time, that was a big--what would you call it? They had a cafeteria and a grocery store and all the other—kind of like Walmart.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: It was called the Mart at that time. And I worked there in the clippers that they washed the dishes with. And then I went to work for the bowling alley, Atomic Lanes, which was right there where the Jacks and Sons Tavern is. That was a community center and a bowling alley there. And I worked there for about a month, and then they went automatic. So, about that time, I was just about ready to get out—finish high school. And I don't think I had any other job after that, and I went in the Air Force.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, so--I'm sorry. When you came back to Richland, what did you do? So in 1965.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Oh, I did everything then. You name it, I took a job. Before—I'm sorry, I got it backwards. Before I went in the Air Force, there wasn't many jobs for people in the—who were kids in Richland. And I worked the bowling alley and I worked down at a dry cleaning outfit. But when I come back to Richland, that's when I had all these other jobs. I worked all these other jobs to keep supplied for the family.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: How had Richland changed in the eight years since you had been gone?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the Uptown district had--the Newberry's had left. And there was a Safeway store right next to the theater. Right now I think it's a—I don't know, some kind of a multi shop deal. And both of the stores that were there originally are gone. They're now all antique stores.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: So it was—when it was built, it was the first big complex for going shopping in Tri-Cities.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: And after they built that, they built Highlands. And that was another big complex for shopping. So I worked everything I could, and 19--oh, what was it? [SIGH] About '67 or '68, I went to work at Hanford. I finally got on with them. Because I'd been applying at Hanford for three years. And I finally got to work with them. I won't mention how I got to work for them, because to me, it's kind of a ridiculous deal, and I don't know whether it was prejudice or not. Well, I'll go ahead. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: I was gonna say, now you've got my interest.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I was--how I'd shop for a job, I'd go out and fill out an employment application, and I'd just distribute--go out all over town and fill out employment applications. And every week, I'd go back and check them. Well, one time, I was filling out an appointment application, and one of the guys I knew, I met him, and he said, hey, there's a new employment office over there at the new Whitaker School. And you might check it out. So I went over there and checked it out and signed up. And three days later, Hanford called me for a job. And I found out that that originally was a minority employment office.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: So I've always had the feeling that somebody didn't look at the records right. They didn't see the C. [LAUGHTER] Because I didn't get hired until I went to there and did an application. Because the government was required to hire a certain number of minority--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Well, but you did get hired.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: So what did you do at Hanford?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, I can say as little as possible, like everybody else. [LAUGHTER] That's a common joke. Of course, it took me about--I couldn't understand it. It took me about three months to get a security clearance. When I was in SAC, I had a Secret clearance. Both my folks worked at Hanford, they had Secret clearance. But it still took me about three months to get a security clearance. And all the time, since I've been on the Air Force, I've lived in Richland, I never could understand the government—why they wasted so much money on a security clearance for me. But when I got out there, I started as a process operator. And started at B Plant. And there was no training at that time. I mean, when you went into a radiation zone, one of the guys that was experienced took you with him. And you dressed like he did, hoping he knew what he was doing, because that's how you dressed. And that's how you learned to dress right. So I started out going into the canyon--I don't know if you knew what the canyons were—okay? We went into the canyons and I helped mixed chemicals in the chemical gallery. And that's where I think I really screwed up my knees, because I can remember—remember, I call it Young Stupid Male Syndrome--I remember throwing a hundred-pound sack of chemicals on my shoulder and going up three flights of stairs with them, rather than wait for the elevator. Young and dumb, indestructible. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Actually, maybe for those who might be watching this who might not be as familiar with some of this stuff as I am, can you describe the canyon?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the canyon was—well, like I say, the building was about 150-foot wide and about 800-foot long. And it was four stories deep and there was just one--the reason they call it canyon was because it was a gigantic canyon. It went the full length of the building, and they had huge cranes that moved different stuff so they could process the atomic waste. Because in B Plant, they process the nuclear waste. They ship it down to B Plant and we go through chemical stuff to separate the strontium and cesium from it. And that would be sent to the encapsulation plant. That was built about—oh, six years after I went to work at B Plant. They closed up after I'd been there for ten years, and I went to work for Encapsulation Building. But the canyon is an immensely big, empty storage building, really what it is. And I don't know how—or what they're gonna do with them now, because there is some radiation there that you wouldn't believe how hot it was. We took samples of radiation behind lead shields, and then they were so hot that they ended up having the crane pick up the samples and dispose of them, because we couldn't move them.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow. Did you—and so when you came back, your father was no longer working at Hanford, right?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, he was still working at Hanford.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, was he still working—so you guys worked at Hanford at the same time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, wow, that's really interesting. So can you tell me a little bit more about what a—describe in a little more detail the job of a process operator?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, real basically, we were what you might call nuclear janitors.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: We clean up the messes that pipe fitters or millwrights or electricians made. We process all the chemical--mixed all the chemicals and processed—did all the processing of separating the strontium and cesium from the nuclear waste and ship them to tank farms. And that was basically what our main job was. We had a few major accidents. Now it'd be all over the world, about how bad it was and all that. But we just went about our business cleaning it up and went on our job. None of us got an overdose of radiation. We relied on our radiation monitors and they were good radiation monitors. If we were getting too much, they yanked us out of there real quick. So we didn't even think about it. It wasn't the case of being scared of it or anything else. It's like your hazardous wastes that they got, like coming from the hospital, where they work in an x-ray lab, they throw all the gloves and stuff and that. That's called mixed hazardous waste. Well, you could take a bath in that and not get any radiation on you. But according to what the public knew, those things are really highly radioactive boxes. And I think the biggest problem the government had is they didn't tell the people enough about what was really going on after the war was over. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh. Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, because there would have been less worry about things that were going on then, if they would have known. Because if you don't know anything about radiation, and you hear somebody mentions something is irradiated, you get all panicky about it. The expression for radiation out there was, you get a crap up. You get a crap up, you scrub it off and go about your business. Now, they panic and take you to town and do all that sort of stuff. There, we just scrubbed it off and went about our business.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: And I never worried about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. So you said you were a process separator at B Plant. And then you went to the Canyon, and what did you do--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, I didn't go to the Canyon, I went to 225-B, the Encapsulation Building.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin; 225-B, the Encapsulation Building.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: That's where they encapsulated the strontium and cesium. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: We all did a multitude of jobs. We worked on the cells, processing the strontium and cesium. And we worked behind the cells in mixing chemicals and we worked from when they loaded the chemicals for shipment for a long period of time when they were shipping cesium to the radiation plant for irradiating medical waste. And that ended when the guy was what they called recycling the cesium capsules too much. They get real hot. I mean, temperature-wise. And he was setting it in the water for a period of time and taking it out of water and cooling them off and stashing them back in the water. Well, one of them leaked.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Ooh.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: And so they ended up, the whole place had to have all those capsules moved back. So that was a big fiasco. And again, it wasn't our fault. It was the guy doing the work was stupid enough to not check and see what he was doing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: And that's usually what happens with most—any of the radiation. And if you work with radiation, it's not the guy doing the work, it's somebody that's stupid and doesn't check what he's doing, doesn't follow regulations that causes the problem. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: So did you have any other jobs at Hanford? Or what--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I don't know, you ever heard of McCluskey?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, I was over there when we cleaned—for five weeks cleaning up that building.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Were you there at the time of the accident--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: No, no.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: --or part of the cleanup for that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Afterwards. They were trying to clean up the rooms so they could go in there and get things squared away. And we spent five weeks there. And to tell you how screwball the government can be, the last week-and-a-half we were there, we finally told our supervisor, look, all of worked on this radiation for 15, 20 years. We know how to clean it up. Quit telling us what to do. Let us go in there and clean it up and we'll get it cleaned up for you in no time at all. So they took a chance. And what they did is we ragged all along the bottom of the building, and we took water fire extinguishers. Because it's americium, and americium is a powder substance, it floats real easy. But it's water soluble--it'll run down with water. So we went in there and sprayed the walls with it real heavy. Then wiped everything down, moved everything that was movable, bagged it up in plastic bags and moved it out. And inside of a week, we had it down to mask only. Before then, we were wearing three pairs of plastic and cooling air and fresh air.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: And we cleaned it up in a week-and-a-half because they didn't want the people that knew what they were doing doing it. And that's the biggest problem with the government: they've always got the bureaucracy up here that knows what's going on, but they never ask the poor guy that’s doing all the work what's going on. I think you've seen that numerous times. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: I think so. [LAUGHTER] Wow, that's really fascinating. So how long total did you work at Hanford?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: 30 years.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: 30 years.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I had to take a medical retirement in '98.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: '98. So then you were there, then, kind of from the shift from production to cleanup. Right? The production and shutdown.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: No, when I left they were just getting ready to start cleaning things up.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, so can you maybe talk about the shift from production to shutdown? How did that affect your job?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, I really didn't get in on any of the cleanup, because I left before they did. But I talked to a number of the guys out there that I worked with that were in the cleanup. The biggest problem they had is they put such a limit on chemicals they could use to do cleanup that they had to use things that they claim were not environmentally safe. They had to void all that--like Tide. They wouldn't even let us use Tide to wash the walls down. Now, you use Tide in washing machines. [LAUGHTER] Come on, give me a break. That's a hazardous chemical? And I guess it took them quite a while to get the thing cleaned up. Because, like I say, they didn't start cleaning it up until after I left.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right. So what did you do in the shutdown era? Like after '87, from '87 to '98? What was your job primarily?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: They didn't shut down--they shut B Plant down, but they didn't shut 2-and-a-quarter down. 2-and-a-quarter was still processing strontium and cesium.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay, so then you kept in the waste encapsulation.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Can you describe a little bit more the process of waste encapsulation?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, strontium is not soluble--not water soluble. And strontium is. And what they had--they had a special process--I don't know exactly the process. I just know what we did. You would take a mixed chemicals with the cesium and you would dissolve it and then you would heat it up to--I think--800 degrees into a liquid. And then you had a machine we called a tilt-pour which would pour seven capsules at a time full of cesium. And then you'd take these capsules and you'd put a sensoring disc in them to make them airtight. And then you'd weld a cap onto that. That'd be welded by a machine. And most then it was computerized. Then that was decontaminated until it was clean. And then it was put into another capsule, and that capsule was also—put a lid on it, but it was soldered on—welded on. And that was moved into the pool cells. Pool cells are 13-foot deep. What you had is a special hole built into the wall with water that you would shove that capsule through. And then the guy on the other side in the pool cell would grab the capsule and pull it out. And he would go to the pool cell that he's designated to go to, and he would shove it through a hole in the wall. And somebody on the other side would grab it and pull it and then you'd put it into its spot. So it was quite a process. And the fear was--you couldn't get that capsule within five feet of the top. Because if you did, you'd get a high radiation alarm. They’d read millions of rads on those capsules. They were hot, no two ways about it. And one thing I've always wondered is why does cesium glow blue when you turn the lights out?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: You turn the lights out in the pool cell, and all these cesium capsules will glow blue. And I've never--I've had somebody say it's something about the speed of light and all that. But I'd like to know the real reason it does that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: That sounds kind of strangely beautiful.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: It was. It's a blue glow all along the bottom. The strontium doesn't. Strontium is not water soluble and it doesn't glow at all. In fact, I got some strontium in me one time when I had a tape when one of the manipulators--I don't know if I didn't mention--all the work was done from the outside with the manipulators. You know what manipulators are.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Okay, and all the capsulation, all of the work was done with manipulators from the outside. And it was amazing what some of those guys could do. They could take a little bottle about so big with a little bitty top and they could pick up that bottle, hold it here, and took up the other--the cap with the lid and put it on it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I was never that good with it, but there some guys out there who got real expertise with that. It just takes a lot of work to learn to use those things. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: I bet.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: That's one reason my hand's tore up--my hand just didn't take it so much.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: And you said you got strontium on your hand?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, I got--I couldn't handle manipulators good because my hand was falling apart on me. So I took all the decontamination of the manipulator. Because that's--a manipulator has to be pulled after so many--I think it's so many weeks, the Mylar coating on it starts deteriorating. So it has to be pulled, decontaminated, and new Mylar sheath put on it. And I was in there decontaminating one of the manipulators, and one of the—well, they were trying new bands that controlled the grips. And one of them broke and sliced my hand. And I got some strontium in my finger. It was about 700 counts. I wasn't too worried about it. But they took me to town and went on all government roads, documented and everything and brought me back. I couldn't work with radiation for about three months until that thing finally deteriorated--worked out of the body.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: But I didn't worry about it. It wasn't enough to do any harm.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Wow, that's really--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: See, that's the difference between working with the stuff and knowing what it does, and not working with the stuff.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right. Right, I've heard a lot of similar things about--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: It's like chemicals. I'd rather work at a radiation plant than at a chemical plant. Because if you have good radiation monitors, you're not gonna get an overdose of radiation. But with a chemical plant, look what they have out there now. A guy gets a whiff of chemicals, they all go panic about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Yeah, I see where you're--I see your point. So you said--earlier when you said you would put the cesium in the pools—cesium cans, you couldn't get them too close to something, because they'd get too hot. Sorry--can you--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: No, it wasn't too close--they're in--oh, it probably was a--well, what would you call it? It was like a cabinet with holes in it. You would drop these in there. And they're spaced out. You couldn't pull them too high. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: If you pulled them sometimes when you're getting ready to transfer them to the pool cell, they would hydroplane and come up. And if you pulled them too fast, they would come up and you'd get a high radiation alarm. You’d just drop it back down and it'd go off.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: That's what it was.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: I got--okay. I gotcha. So--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: It only takes one time, you remember not to do that anymore. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I bet. So even though your area—your work didn't change much when most of the plans ordered to shut down. You still probably worked with a lot of people whose jobs might have changed--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: --during shutdown. Can you talk about that transition between process--?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, I talked with some of the guys and they were talking about how much work it took to get things cleaned up. Like the area behind the pool cells, that had to be completely decontaminated. And we finally got it down to where it was just one pair and no masks. That took a lot of work. Decontaminating just takes a lot of hand-scrubbing. I mean, it's not a case of, you can put something there and pick it up and get rid of it. You got a scrub a lot of places until it's gone. It takes a lot of work. And I talked to one fella, and he said that they had all the cells that were down to clean—and what they consider clean is no radiation in them. And it is hard for me to believe, because some of those cells were really hot. But I never got a chance on the cleanup.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: How was--so when Hanford was shifting over, how was this change explained by management, or some of the--how was it conveyed, or how did the community take it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Management never explained anything to anybody. [LAUGHTER] I don't remember hearing the community complaining about anything, because most of the guys worked out there, and they knew what was going on. So there was no big panic about it. It wasn't the case where some guys didn't work here, they were told this was going on and got all excited because they didn’t know what was going on. Most people knew what was going on. So there was no big panic that I remember.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: We didn't panic with radiation, because we had good radiation monitors.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: And that makes a big difference when you're working around radiation.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: So being in waste encapsulation, how did other events--other nuclear accidents around the country or around the world, like Three Mile Island or Chernobyl, kind of affect how your job or how--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: It made us see how ridiculous--because Three Mile Island actually worked. It was [UNKNOWN] what it was built for. And the moderation they got--radiation they got was not as much as you get flying from here to Denver City. Because you get more radiation from the sun than you do from—what the people at Three Mile Island got. But they blew it up so big, because so many years the government kept radiation such a secret. And that's the reason there's so much panic whenever they say radiation. Of course, there's been some real bad accidents. That one in Japan—that was a horrible thing. But as far as Hanford goes, most of the people that worked at Hanford don't—I guess they're not working around radiation anymore; it's all chemicals. Because they're getting—they get the chemicals and to me, that's the management's problem. Because they're doing something wrong in taking care of the people. The people are doing what they're told to do. If management is telling them, hey, you got to wear this, and they're not wearing it, then that's their problem—that’s the worker's problem. But when the management doesn't do anything about it, that's their problem—that’s management's problem. And I think from what I've heard and read, most of this is a managerial problem. It's not a case that the worker is going out of his way to ignore any safety concerns.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right. What about the accident in Chernobyl? How did that--did that affect your job, or--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah, it affected it because they shut down N Reactor. And N Reactor, up until then, was as safe as any reactor in the country. It had so many safety pieces on it that you could darn near slam a door and make it shut down. But they shut it down because it was something like Chernobyl. And that's where the big effect was. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: How did--oh, how did security policies change over time? Did they change with the different contractors or in response to different events?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: No, the security’s main thing was basically the same. You had the security guards at like 200 East—well, they left the security guards that you couldn’t get out to Hanford without a security clearance. But that quit because they had the buses, and that stopped. And they had the security guards checking the buses and stuff as you went through. And then typical government, they started screaming about, oh, we're burning too much gas. We can't afford gas! So we'll shut the buses down. [LAUGHTER] So everybody had to drive out. But the guards at the gate checked your badges, checked your cars. If there was anything in it--you couldn’t take cameras or anything like that out there. If the guard knew you, he checked you out whether he knew you or not, because he had to make sure your wife didn't leave a camera sitting in your backseat you didn't know about.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Which happened on occasion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right, I bet. How did your job change with the different contractors coming in? Did it change much, or did you--</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, every contractor that came in, the engineers thought they were gonna remake the world. They would come up with some plan that they saw on a schematic and say, this is the way we want to do it. And we'd tell them point blank, it won't work. We've tried it that way. And they say, oh yes, it will! So we'd spend $50,000 in parts and stuff to put this together, and then it didn't work. And then they went around, well, why didn't it work? Well. The only one I ever saw that was a decent engineer is when he'd draw up a plan to do something, he would go to the millwrights, he would go to the operators, he'd go to the instrument techs and ask them to look at it and see if there's anything that needs done on it. And he had never had any problems. But these that come straight out of school and thought they could reinvent the world were a pain in the butt to us because they cost money and time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Do you remember who that good engineer was?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: He left. I don't remember who he was. But he left and went to work for a big company some place.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you remember President Nixon's visit in--I think it was 1970 or 1971?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: I might have. I didn't see him. I don't worry about politics.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: He didn't do our place any good or any bad. Just a big political statement.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: How did the Tri-Cities change from when you came back in 1968 until today? What kind of strikes you as major changes?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, there seem to be more, you might say, petty crimes. There wasn't as much as there was before--there was more than there was before, I should say. But the city maintained its equilibrium about the same, because the people have been here for 20 years, and then they sold the city to the town. There was no big change in the government. The police stayed the same. The biggest change was you had to call a painter if you wanted your house painted. And they sold the houses to the people, and that was the biggest change.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: How about, though, since—from when you came back in 1968 until today? Has there been any--has the community changed at all?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, a lot of the businesses have left Richland. They moved out Columbia Center area, or up there in that area. We don't have--you got to go to Columbia Center to find a business. There's a few still there. There's Home Depot and stuff like that down there, Big Lots. But there's not as many as there used to be. And mostly antique shops or stereo shops.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: But there's always the Spudnut. It's always been there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: There is always the Spudnuts, yeah. They're good too. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, us kids had different ways of playing that nowadays they would just panic about it. We used to have BB gun fights. We’d put on leather jackets and extra pair of Levi's and a hat and go into these orchards like where Densow's was and we'd have BB gun fights. And you haven't really lived until you've had your butt shot by a BB. [LAUGHTER] But nowadays there'd be some big panic about it that you're gonna shoot an eye out. Well, nobody ever shot an eye out because we made sure that we didn't shoot towards the head. [LAUGHTER] When they were building the houses, that's what was amazing, how fast they put these houses up. It wasn't a week or so to get a house started--it was almost a week and they had the thing almost done. And we used to go to different houses and have clod fights. Things like that that you don't dare do nowadays.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: When you had what kind of fights?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Clod fights. Clodded earth. We'd get behind stuff and throw clods at each other. And the snow then was two, three foot deep. Because I remember building snow forts in my yard three foot high and never have to go to the yard to get snow. So there has been a big change in the weather. And the shelterbelt, that made a big difference, because I remember when we had sandstorms--not dust storms, sandstorms. And my dad would pull his car up in front of the house to keep the sand from blasting the side of the car off--the paint. So there's been big changes. The shelterbelt was one thing the government put in that actually worked. It’s kind of surprising. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: That's great. Is there anything else? Anything else you'd like to talk about?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, not really. Just that the area behind--you know, in West Richland at that time used to be Heminger City and Enterprise. They were two cities then.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, tell me, were those cities that predated the Hanford Project?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Okay, and how big were there?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Oh, they were just little communities. It was just one run into the other. There was one called Enterprise, one was called--what did I just say?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Something city.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Heminger City.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Heminger City.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: One of the elections went out for voting, they had one of the places that you went to was called Enterprise.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: And how long did those communities last after Hanford came?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Not very long. I can remember Dad going out to the first town—first little town was Heminger City. And that was right where Cline's computer shop is, it was automobile shop there. And those were all owned by one group--one person. I think it was--Herricks was the name. And she had a little taco stand in one of the places. And OK Tire Shop had part of the one building that they sold tires and did car repair out of. So it was a slow change in West Richland. We had a feed store for a while. But Hanford went on strike and our feed store went down the tubes. They used to have what they called parking lot critter sells. People would bring all their animals, little animals that they wanted to sell in cages. And we would sell them for them and get 10% of the interest. It was a pretty good deal, because a lot of people had pet rabbits and stuff like that and they wanted to get rid of them. Usually had them at the un-boat races. You heard of the un-boat races?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Why don't you tell me?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: The un-boat races? You ever heard of them?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: Why don't you tell me?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Well, the un-boat race was you went up to the Horn Rapids Dam, and you put something in. It could not be a boat. It could be a bath tub, it could be inner tubes--it could be anything that you could see above that would float and it could not be called--it was called un-boat race. And there was a prize that they got down towards the bridge that crosses the Yakima there on George Washington Way. Got down about that far, there was a prize who got there first. But they ended up cutting that out because people left too much stuff—garbage alongside the road. They wouldn’t pick it up and take it with them when they were done with it. But that was a lot of fun. We used to stand up on the ridge. Always started about May. And we'd stand there and watch people come down the river on these un-boats. [LAUGHTER]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Franklin: That sounds really fun. Anyone else have anything? Okay, well, Dan, thank you so much for talking to us today. I learned a lot of great stuff about Richland and waste encapsulation. I really appreciate it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Barnett: Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:09:22
Bit Rate/Frequency
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317 kbps
Hanford Sites
Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview
200 East Area
B Plant
N Reactor
225-B Encapsulation Building
Years in Tri-Cities Area
Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site
1968-today
Years on Hanford Site
Years on the Hanford Site, if any.
1968-1998
Names Mentioned
Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community.
Newberry
O'Malley
Walter
Jacks
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Daniel Barnett
Description
An account of the resource
An interview with Daniel Barnett conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy.
Creator
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Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
07-14-2016
Rights
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Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item.
Format
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video/mp4
Date Modified
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2017-08-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.]
Provenance
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The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection.
1955
200 East
B Plant
Battelle
Cold War
Dam
Hanford
Houses
K-Basin
Kennewick
Market
N Reactor
Park
River
School
Sun
swimming
War
-
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe6235d5ee4ddd0226c52b5644ed0681a.jpg
0f8bb3db7a8ba35be2610f927d178d99
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Community Photograph Collections
Subject
The topic of the resource
History of Hanford and the Tri-Cities area
Description
An account of the resource
Photographs donated by the community to the Hanford History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items.
Language
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English
Abstract
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The Community Collections of the Hanford History Project have been graciously donated by community members for preservation and research use. Many of these are collections that were donated to the former Columbia River Exhibition of History, Science, and Technology (CREHST) and transferred to WSU Tri-Cities in 2014.
Bibliographic Citation
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[Item ID], Community Collections, Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities
Still Image
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Original Format
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photograph
Physical Dimensions
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1 photo: b&w; 35.5cm X 23cm.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Floods, Richland
Subject
The topic of the resource
Baseball; Baseball Player; Teams; Sports; Local Teams; 1955
Description
An account of the resource
Photo of Tri-City Braves baseball team photo, 1954; 16 players featured, coach (“Ray ‘Doc’ Hoyt”) and batboy.
Creator
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Sheryl Gray
Publisher
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Hanford History Project, Washington State University - Tricities
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1948
Format
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image/ tif
Language
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English
Identifier
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RG1D_4A_0271
Date Created
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2016
Rights Holder
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For permission to publish please contact the Hanford History Project (509) 372-7447
1955
Baseball
Baseball Player
Local Teams
Sports
Teams